Stormatious wrote:


In the true sence of the word some one who would be called a wargamer would not not paint there models its simple as that, im not good at using a bunch of technical words to break this down in to a detailed anaylisis of what a wargamer is, if you dont understand what i mean then imo that's not my fault. But it is true to say a TRUE war gamer paints his army... ok

So you're gatekeeping. Good to know.

What does that mean?


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What how do you not understand that. Theres another catagory you fit in to if you are not following the basic laws of wargaming

Paint...your...fething...models.

If you are going to an event, come on.

This is why I prefer 30k. You almost never see a grey army.

You definitly cant be called some one with a battlefield ready army, therefore how are you a wargamer with no army

 Stormatious wrote:
What does that mean?


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What how do you not understand that. Theres another catagory you fit in to if you are not following the basic laws of wargaming

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Gatekeeping

Tell me where these basic laws of wargaming are written down.

Tell me who the almighty authority enforcing them is.

LunaWolvesLoyalist wrote:
Paint...your...fething...models.

If you are going to an event, come on.

This is why I prefer 30k. You almost never see a grey army.

Well with your spiritual guidance we can do this in 40k

LunaWolvesLoyalist wrote:
Paint...your...fething...models.

If you are going to an event, come on.

This is why I prefer 30k. You almost never see a grey army.

I see more grey armies in 30K than I do in 40K. But hey, each local is different.

 Mmmpi wrote:

 Stormatious wrote:
What does that mean?


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What how do you not understand that. Theres another catagory you fit in to if you are not following the basic laws of wargaming

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Gatekeeping

Tell me where these basic laws of wargaming are written down.

Tell me who the almighty authority enforcing them is.

These are unwritten laws, just like you are not acting like a idiot right now because that would go against being a civilized human

 Stormatious wrote:
You definitly cant be called some one with a battlefield ready army, therefore how are you a wargamer with no army

So being unpainted stops the player from rolling dice. Got it.


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 Stormatious wrote:

LunaWolvesLoyalist wrote:
Paint...your...fething...models.

If you are going to an event, come on.

This is why I prefer 30k. You almost never see a grey army.

Well with your spiritual guidance we can do this in 40k

Good luck.


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 Stormatious wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

 Stormatious wrote:
What does that mean?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What how do you not understand that. Theres another catagory you fit in to if you are not following the basic laws of wargaming

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Gatekeeping

Tell me where these basic laws of wargaming are written down.

Tell me who the almighty authority enforcing them is.

These are unwritten laws, just like you are not acting like a idiot right now because that would go against being a civilized human

Ad hominum? Really?

So, how do you enforce these unwritten 'laws'?
Or even stop someone from making stuff up and calling it 'unwritten'?

I guess though you're just saying you don't have proof, so you're making an 'appeal to tradition'.

 Mmmpi wrote:

 Stormatious wrote:
You definitly cant be called some one with a battlefield ready army, therefore how are you a wargamer with no army

So being unpainted stops the player from rolling dice. Got it.


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 Stormatious wrote:

LunaWolvesLoyalist wrote:
Paint...your...fething...models.

If you are going to an event, come on.

This is why I prefer 30k. You almost never see a grey army.

Well with your spiritual guidance we can do this in 40k

Good luck.

No but in the definition of the word battleready in miniture wargaming you are not. Doesn't mean you are not actauly ready.


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 Mmmpi wrote:

 Stormatious wrote:
You definitly cant be called some one with a battlefield ready army, therefore how are you a wargamer with no army

So being unpainted stops the player from rolling dice. Got it.


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 Stormatious wrote:

LunaWolvesLoyalist wrote:
Paint...your...fething...models.

If you are going to an event, come on.

This is why I prefer 30k. You almost never see a grey army.

Well with your spiritual guidance we can do this in 40k

Good luck.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stormatious wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

 Stormatious wrote:
What does that mean?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What how do you not understand that. Theres another catagory you fit in to if you are not following the basic laws of wargaming

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Gatekeeping

Tell me where these basic laws of wargaming are written down.

Tell me who the almighty authority enforcing them is.

These are unwritten laws, just like you are not acting like a idiot right now because that would go against being a civilized human

Ad hominum? Really?

So, how do you enforce these unwritten 'laws'?
Or even stop someone from making stuff up and calling it 'unwritten'?

I guess though you're just saying you don't have proof, so you're making an 'appeal to tradition'.

These are unwritten laws because there not enforced, as i said its just like being an idiot right now or acting civilized

No but in the definition of the word battleready in miniture wargaming you are not. Doesn't mean you are not actauly ready.

So you can tell me where that definition is written down then.

These are unwritten laws because there not enforced, as i said its just like being an idiot right now or acting civilized

So if it's not being enforced, and it's not written down, then it's not actually a rule. You're just trying to make people think it's one.

Also, don't forget rule #1 ( being an idiot right now)

 Mmmpi wrote:

No but in the definition of the word battleready in miniture wargaming you are not. Doesn't mean you are not actauly ready.

So you can tell me where that definition is written down then.

These are unwritten laws because there not enforced, as i said its just like being an idiot right now or acting civilized

So if it's not being enforced, and it's not written down, then it's not actually a rule. You're just trying to make people think it's one.

Also, don't forget rule #1 ( being an idiot right now)

if you look up common sence in the dictionary and ponder what i have said you will get it.

 Stormatious wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

No but in the definition of the word battleready in miniture wargaming you are not. Doesn't mean you are not actauly ready.

So you can tell me where that definition is written down then.

These are unwritten laws because there not enforced, as i said its just like being an idiot right now or acting civilized

So if it's not being enforced, and it's not written down, then it's not actually a rule. You're just trying to make people think it's one.

Also, don't forget rule #1 ( being an idiot right now)

if you look up common sence in the dictionary you might get what im saying.

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b&q=common+sense+meaning

Nope, it doesn't say what you claim.

Only play painted. As others have mentioned, I feel like it's a sign of respect for the game and your opponent. Obviously If soeone has just bought a new unit and want to try it out or you can see a force is making progress thats ok, but people who just play plastic are not generally the kinda games I want to play.

 Mmmpi wrote:

 Stormatious wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

No but in the definition of the word battleready in miniture wargaming you are not. Doesn't mean you are not actauly ready.

So you can tell me where that definition is written down then.

These are unwritten laws because there not enforced, as i said its just like being an idiot right now or acting civilized

So if it's not being enforced, and it's not written down, then it's not actually a rule. You're just trying to make people think it's one.

Also, don't forget rule #1 ( being an idiot right now)

if you look up common sence in the dictionary you might get what im saying.

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b&q=common+sense+meaning

Nope, it doesn't say what you claim.

No but it might help you know if you have common sence or not. There are words for things for a reason, if you think its fine to take some thign and change it and for its orginal name to still be there then i duno.

There are words for a reason. I should know. I'm an English teacher.

Common Sense as a phrase however, doesn't mean what you're claiming.

You're thinking "Traditional" instead, as in: It's a traditional view to have painted armies.

Ok its traditional.

So, why should the traditional view be the only one?

Because its a major part of what it means to have a miniture battleready army and therefore if your going to break tradition and change what it means you also need to find a new catagory to fit what you do in other then wargaming

As you define it. Not as everyone defines it.

Again, you're gatekeeping.

As it is defined, is minture wargaming in warahammer not defined as battling painted models?


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I mean one of the main definitions

Correct. Miniature war gaming is not defined as battling painted models.

My friend's dad plays a game called "Fires in the East". This WWII strategy game uses 1cm square cardboard chits. It's still a war game.

Im not going to win at debating you, ill just shut up but i still feel strongly that its a compulsary part of warhammer wargaming

 Mmmpi wrote:

My friend's dad plays a game called "Fires in the East". This WWII strategy game uses 1cm square cardboard chits. It's still a war game.

But it is not a miniature war game. But perhaps you'd be happier with that game, then you would't need to assemble the models either.

And as noted, this discussion doesn't happen with historicals, it is absolutely given that you paint your bloody models before playing.

As Crimson said earlier, the game is clearly intended to be played with painted models. I don't think you can really argue that. Every indication given from GW's materials, battle reports etc. would lead one to the expectation of having each army be painted. Further, I'd argue that that expectation is a perfectly reasonable one.

If you don't like painting or just don't want to do it that's fine. I don't see why that's so hard to say (many people in this thread have) opposed to acting like everyone doesn't already know this is a miniature wargame or that the models are sold unpainted for a reason.

Ok, the only point I've been trying to make is that many people don't see it as compulsory, and not believing it doesn't exclude them from the gaming community.

You like painting and it's fine (so do I), but not liking to paint is a perfectly acceptable. Different strokes for different folks.

I've found gentle encouragement, and 'painting days' to be a big help in encouraging people to paint, rather than telling them they're doing it wrong for not painting.


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 Crimson wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

My friend's dad plays a game called "Fires in the East". This WWII strategy game uses 1cm square cardboard chits. It's still a war game.

But it is not a miniature war game. But perhaps you'd be happier with that game, then you would't need to assemble the models either.

And as noted, this discussion doesn't happen with historicals, it is absolutely given that you paint your bloody models before playing.

It's like you didn't read my first post in this thread.

I prefer painted armies, and opponents with different armies.

my whole point though, is that we don't get to decide what is right or wrong for fielding an army. Different people like different things, and forcing something, like painting, on people is a good way to get them to quit.

Yeah i know i understand but we should just strongly encourage, im not saying exclude in any way at all but yeah its all good.

 Luciferian wrote:
As Crimson said earlier, the game is clearly intended to be played with painted models. I don't think you can really argue that. Every indication given from GW's materials, battle reports etc. would lead one to the expectation of having each army be painted. Further, I'd argue that that expectation is a perfectly reasonable one.

If you don't like painting or just don't want to do it that's fine. I don't see why that's so hard to say (many people in this thread have) opposed to acting like everyone doesn't already know this is a miniature wargame or that the models are sold unpainted for a reason.

My point is that it's not our place to force painting onto people. Gently encourage them, yes. But taking an arbitrary "My way is the only right way" stance is just going to force people out, who are otherwise fine people.

 Mmmpi wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:
As Crimson said earlier, the game is clearly intended to be played with painted models. I don't think you can really argue that. Every indication given from GW's materials, battle reports etc. would lead one to the expectation of having each army be painted. Further, I'd argue that that expectation is a perfectly reasonable one.

If you don't like painting or just don't want to do it that's fine. I don't see why that's so hard to say (many people in this thread have) opposed to acting like everyone doesn't already know this is a miniature wargame or that the models are sold unpainted for a reason.

My point is that it's not our place to force painting onto people. Gently encourage them, yes. But taking an arbitrary "My way is the only right way" stance is just going to force people out, who are otherwise fine people.

Yeah you're right but i don't really know why you think any ones taking extreme stances against non painters


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 Stormatious wrote:
Yeah i know i understand but we should just strongly encourage, im not saying exclude in any way at all but yeah its all good.

Personally, i'd go with gently encourage. I know for myself, that if someone came up and told me strongly I'm not doing something right, and it was a subjective opinion, my first reaction would be to do the opposite as an FU to them.

 Stormatious wrote:

Yeah you're right but i don't really know why you think any ones taking extreme stances against non painters

Because, at the time of posting this, 45 people voted that way?

 Stormatious wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:
As Crimson said earlier, the game is clearly intended to be played with painted models. I don't think you can really argue that. Every indication given from GW's materials, battle reports etc. would lead one to the expectation of having each army be painted. Further, I'd argue that that expectation is a perfectly reasonable one.

If you don't like painting or just don't want to do it that's fine. I don't see why that's so hard to say (many people in this thread have) opposed to acting like everyone doesn't already know this is a miniature wargame or that the models are sold unpainted for a reason.

My point is that it's not our place to force painting onto people. Gently encourage them, yes. But taking an arbitrary "My way is the only right way" stance is just going to force people out, who are otherwise fine people.

Yeah you're right but i don't really know why you think any ones taking extreme stances against non painters


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...because I've been reading and participating in this thread since the beginning. And because I've heard stories of it happening in other places. And finally because I've seen it happen IRL.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 Stormatious wrote:

Yeah you're right but i don't really know why you think any ones taking extreme stances against non painters

Because, at the time of posting this, 45 people voted that way?

doesn't mean we want them completely excluided


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just means there not ready to particpate in the game in most cases because thats how this works generally

...again, this is subjective.

Stormatious wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Stormatious wrote:You cant see detail with grey minis....

Depends on what you're painting it with. Black matte primer is going to give me far less detail than the naked model. Someone putting 5mm of paint on a model is going to obscure all detail. Painting straight from the pot can obscure plenty of detail. In fact, naked models have more detail since nothing is being obscured, short of flags and banners, of course.

So, not entirely true unless you're own vision is already too compromised to tell it with good paint.

You in no way shape or form see detail better with it being its orginal unpainted form, dont know what you are talking about seems like you're stretching unbelievely far to try and justify non painted models.

Nope, I gave my explanation quite well, I thought.

Black matte primer absorbs light like crazy requiring a very close look to observe any detail due to the lack of shadows.

Thick paint (like over-painting or even straight from the pot) can fill the valleys of a model's details, such as a face grill, such that the detail is obscured or completely buried. If it is buried, it cannot be seen. Trust me, I've seen them. I honestly would rather they be naked in some of those cases.

In these cases, naked allows me to see more detail than painted. It is only on flat surface which have no model details, such as flags and banners, that paint IS the detail, or the painting is done rather well where this doesn't apply.

 Charistoph wrote:

Stormatious wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Stormatious wrote:You cant see detail with grey minis....

Depends on what you're painting it with. Black matte primer is going to give me far less detail than the naked model. Someone putting 5mm of paint on a model is going to obscure all detail. Painting straight from the pot can obscure plenty of detail. In fact, naked models have more detail since nothing is being obscured, short of flags and banners, of course.

So, not entirely true unless you're own vision is already too compromised to tell it with good paint.

You in no way shape or form see detail better with it being its orginal unpainted form, dont know what you are talking about seems like you're stretching unbelievely far to try and justify non painted models.

Nope, I gave my explanation quite well, I thought.

Black matte primer absorbs light like crazy requiring a very close look to observe any detail due to the lack of shadows.

Thick paint (like over-painting or even straight from the pot) can fill the valleys of a model's details, such as a face grill, such that the detail is obscured or completely buried. If it is buried, it cannot be seen. Trust me, I've seen them. I honestly would rather they be naked in some of those cases.

In these cases, naked allows me to see more detail than painted. It is only on flat surface which have no model details, such as flags and banners, that paint IS the detail, or the painting is done rather well where this doesn't apply.

Yeah still dont understand at all how you can think that, what ever thats just me. You realise the paint is very thin to begin with, and generally we thin it down even more, its so thin you wont believe.

Black primed models are harder to see detail on.

Poorly painted models have their details obscured by paint.

Light grey models are actually reasonable to see detail on from about up to a meter away.

That's all he's saying.

As for paint thickness, people can still paint incorrectly, and paints can dry out and glob up (citidal white...my nemesis!).

I know black primed models are harder to see, thats why we highlight details. Poorley painted models fail yes, thats why we practice and get better over time spending hundreds of hours doing wargammer


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We highlight so its even more visible if it was just painted 1 color

So you agree that basic primed models and poorly painted ones are harder to see detail on than grey ones?

 Mmmpi wrote:
So you agree that basic primed models and poorly painted ones are harder to see detail on than grey ones?

no i mean i know black primed models alone with out the highlighted details are harder to see*


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i meant i know that already

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 Stormatious wrote:

Yeah you're right but i don't really know why you think any ones taking extreme stances against non painters

Because, at the time of posting this, 45 people voted that way?

This is a poll with preworded options, and people choose one which matches their view the best. I certainly wouldn't have worded the middle option that way, but I chose it as I actually do care about the matter quite bit. Whether people's armies are painted or not affects my likelihood of wanting to play with them a lot.

I cannot stand unpainted miniatures. It looks disgusting. Not holding it against the person playing them, but I still avoid the grey crap wherever and whenever possible.

I don't care if the opponents model's are painted or not. Its the personality and the attitude of the opponent that will determine if I will play them or not.

I have known opponents that are hardcore into a game system (be it 40k, AoS, Warmachine, or Battletech) that are absolute blasts to play... but for various reasons (some medical, some because painting is not their interest) they have models assembled, but unpainted. I've offered to help them paint their stuff, I have offered to paint it for them (some of whom gladly accepted the help, others politely declined), but I have never turned someone a game because they have an unpainted army, nor will I.

 Stormatious wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
So you agree that basic primed models and poorly painted ones are harder to see detail on than grey ones?

no i mean i know black primed models alone with out the highlighted details are harder to see*


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i meant i know that already

Well that was literally what he was saying.

 Mmmpi wrote:

 Stormatious wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
So you agree that basic primed models and poorly painted ones are harder to see detail on than grey ones?

no i mean i know black primed models alone with out the highlighted details are harder to see*


Automatically Appended Next Post:
i meant i know that already

Well that was literally what he was saying.

i know so my point is like so it doesn't matter, who leaves a model primed black?

People who primed/basecoated their whole army and that's it?

If it becomes a regular thing then honestly yes, I do a little. I'd never say anything to them, but I'd silently judge them. I'm a hobbyist first and a gamer second, so I don't field anything that's not painted. But in the end if it's a fun game with a good player I don't really mind.

 Mmmpi wrote:
People who primed/basecoated their whole army and that's it?

yeah


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im gettng sick in the stomach thinking of how hard your trying to defend non painted minis when people spend so much time and learning and effort painting


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its like what the heck

I usually paint models as I assemble them, so almost all of the models I field often are painted to some degree.

That said, there's also almost always something not fully painted, because I forgot, like that one Guardsman who's just white and grey because he got lost while I was painting the rest of his unit, or aren't really sure what I'm doing with in the end, like the two Seraphim who I'm still on the fence about cutting up to give Inferno Pistols, or it's new and I'm still working on it.

Most of my IG infantry is also not painted in the same scheme as my armor, because I went through the effort to repaint my armor but I don't really have the will to repaint 130+ infantry. I'll just slowly buy new infantry. And there's some models that I'll probably never paint, because I can't be bothered, like my Dropzone Commander Infantry or my Space Wolves.


I don't really have a problem with opposing unpainted models, as long as they're built unpainted models. Unbuilt models ["this chassis is my buggy" or "these bases are my guardsmen"] annoy me, though. I don't think there's any requirement to have the miniature be painted and based, but it should be built enough for me to tell what it's supposed to be.

Stormatious wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
So you agree that basic primed models and poorly painted ones are harder to see detail on than grey ones?

no i mean i know black primed models alone with out the highlighted details are harder to see*

i meant i know that already

If you know that, then why did you keep asking about it? I thought I was quite clear.

Stormatious wrote:i know so my point is like so it doesn't matter, who leaves a model primed black?

Plenty. They may not like how their modelling looks, so they prime it, and they are either too nervous to paint or whatever. Sometimes you learn the game while you're learning the hobby. Sometimes you simply don't have the paints or color scheme figured out yet (yes, some people have quandaries about that).

Heck, I didn't start painting until I sold my first army and got my hands on my second army, and I sure as heck didn't have the money to pay someone else to do it. My last army was sold before I painted it because I was still in the middle of building it and I was done with the game for a time.

Stormatious wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
People who primed/basecoated their whole army and that's it?

yeah

im gettng sick in the stomach thinking of how hard your trying to defend non painted minis when people spend so much time and learning and effort painting

its like what the heck

It's called being a noob, not having time to do it, or not having a final paint scheme, dood. I mean, what the heck, do you expect everyone to have started the hobby at 6 years old and have a Golden Daemon waiting inside their fingers?

 Charistoph wrote:
I mean, what the heck, do you expect everyone to have started the hobby at 6 years old and have a Golden Daemon waiting inside their fingers?

No, but painting to a basic tabletop standard does not require Golden Demon level skill. It requires being willing to spend the time doing the work instead of complaining about how you shouldn't have to paint anything.

Who's complaining about painting?

We're discussing whether or not having a painted army are valid choices.

Try to keep up.

 Mmmpi wrote:
Who's complaining about painting?

Lots of people in this thread are complaining about being required to paint their models.

This has gone on long enough and we are way off topic, I am locking this thread.