Green Tide should score 14 ( 5, 3, 3, 3 ). ROD should be an easy 12.
But.... morale, right? Why are people talking about 10 man Kommandos / Stormboyz? Same problem. What happens when you have Grisly Trophies on and you lose a buggy or two?
The tools are there, but no one wants to use them. Throughout this thread people have stated how bad morale is and how little CP many Orks start the game with.
The list above starts with 10 or 11 CP. That's more than enough for Breakin' Heads and Auto-Pass for two rounds, which is all you'll need for the two blocks. You've got Blood Axes for the ability to fall back from combat and charge deeper in. Couple that with a lucky Madboyz and Get Stuck In you could see them pile-in 9 friggin' inches. If they're not killy enough them Goffs.
No Prisoners only gives up 8 if they can't clear the grots - 12 otherwise. Grind Them Down is a risk, but the options for them to do that involve reducing shooting to the mobs up front.
KFF and Doc just give a little more edge on survivability. Why not Snaggas? It costs me 1.4 points per boy for KFF and I have flexibility for 5++. If my opponent is heavy shooting like Admech then I'm popping KFF Boosta. If they're melee like DE or BA? I'll keep the 6++ in melee.
This puts me at 14 models from 20 Vanguard using Enriched Rounds, 5 from a full Squig Buggy unit, 11 from 10 Halberd Interceptors ( FNP basically useless ). What do Interceptors do to buggies? About 17 wounds - with a pre charge smite that's probably two buggies.
An alternative could be to use the same expectation for propping up morale, skipping the KFF & Doc, and going mechanized alongside buggies. Do note that this is a random musing and probably isn't the most optimized for this style of list. I'd wager it will win you games - maybe not top 10 at a GT though.
having played with Green Tide a few games...I'm never ever choosing it again as a secondary. It's soooooo easy for your opponent to lock you out of it by like. Turn 2.
Your opponent needs to kill 20 grots and 5 kommandos to lock your list out of Green Tide.
the_scotsman wrote: having played with Green Tide a few games...I'm never ever choosing it again as a secondary. It's soooooo easy for your opponent to lock you out of it by like. Turn 2.
Your opponent needs to kill 20 grots and 5 kommandos to lock your list out of Green Tide.
Out of the 5 point, but not the 3. It really helps to go second as well so Kommandos can come on and score at end of round. I would anticipate one round at 5 ( at some point in the game ) and 3 for 3 more rounds then none in the last. Even if you're only 4x3 you're still at 12, which seems easier to maintain than engage sometimes.
Painboy is not very useful for 1w models other than if you plan to force 2 turn games in tourneyawithout turn-time limit. There's just too much d2+.
Mek guns are ld4, so squadding them is too dangerous. Having lost 1, you have 50% chance to loose another one.
Mad boyz prevent you from using breaking heads and from blood axe redeployment (which they are usually taken for in the first place). They also miss +1 to hit bonus aura from your warboss.
Not telling that you force yourself into wasting a ton of cp just to keep your troops from loosing extra bodies to morale.
Manz in a footslogging list - you're paying points to help your opponent's meltas pay off.
Snazzwagon - same here. You're better off with a squigbuggy that can hide from antitank out of Los.
2*20 grots with a runtherd. Grots in larger squads are only goodwhen you screen your buggies from t1 charge. Nothing to screen here. And 5 ppm grots with t3 and no armor...
All in all, it's a good list to highlight all the army's weaknesses.
Perhaps its my ignorance, but how are you getting across the table? Because it seems like the bulk of those units are not doing anything until turn 3 (still a significantly risk if you go with strategic reserves etc) - which means most good armies will just be able to take them to bits on their terms.
I'm not sure you'd expect to get dramatically more points from Greentide than you would from a standard engage on all fronts. Killing 20~ boyz, 20 grots and 5 Kommandos shouldn't prove that much of a challenge.
If you want a horde list go for as many 5 man squads you can get and make the Deathskulls. Tankbustas, stormboyz, kommandos, burnaboyz, maybe lootas, then some gretchins. Cavalry guys, both regular and characters, will be the heavy hitters.
60ish infantry orks in 5 man squads, gretchins, 9+ squig riders, 3+ squig rider characters can be a solid back bone of an horde oriented ork list. Meganobz only with Tellyporta.
If you really want 60 boyz, go for 6x10 instead of 2x30. Same with gretchins, take multiple min squads instead of 20+ man blobs.
Crimson wrote: So how do the normal boyz compare to the Beastsnagga boyz?
Spoiler:
I actually meant competitiveness, but that was a great comparison too, so thank you! Beast snaggas seem to be somewhat smaller than I would have imagined.
the_scotsman wrote: Huh. Til the vehicle with the giant fething Squig on the front of it lacks the Squig keyword...
That is equal parts bizarre and completely unsurprising.
Crimson wrote: I actually meant competitiveness, but that was a great comparison too, so thank you! Beast snaggas seem to be somewhat smaller than I would have imagined.
Crimson wrote: So how do the normal boyz compare to the Beastsnagga boyz?
Essentially what you get for those 2 extra points is very much worth 2 extra points, but the basic boy is not worth 9. In the end you have a 110 points unit which is outperformed by kommandoz, stormboyz and warbikers because they can form cheaper units with similar punch. They also can't be trukkboyz.
I'm currently trying to make them work as traditional battlewagon boyz, but my games with them so far haven't been stellar. They play like pure slugga&choppa nobz units, which have never been something to write home about.
Painboy is not very useful for 1w models other than if you plan to force 2 turn games in tourneyawithout turn-time limit. There's just too much d2+.
Mek guns are ld4, so squadding them is too dangerous. Having lost 1, you have 50% chance to loose another one.
Mad boyz prevent you from using breaking heads and from blood axe redeployment (which they are usually taken for in the first place). They also miss +1 to hit bonus aura from your warboss.
Not telling that you force yourself into wasting a ton of cp just to keep your troops from loosing extra bodies to morale.
Manz in a footslogging list - you're paying points to help your opponent's meltas pay off.
Snazzwagon - same here. You're better off with a squigbuggy that can hide from antitank out of Los.
2*20 grots with a runtherd. Grots in larger squads are only goodwhen you screen your buggies from t1 charge. Nothing to screen here. And 5 ppm grots with t3 and no armor...
All in all, it's a good list to highlight all the army's weaknesses.
- Madboyz would get the BRB autopass. I didn't intend on redeploy, but worth noting - thanks. - Painboy wouldn't roll on D2 weapons. If a TVC hit the unit I'd roll on the mortal wounds and let the rest ride. He exists for Vanguard, Sisters, melee in general, etc. If people are putting D2 guns into boyz with koptas, kannons, and wagon then I'm either really dead or doing well ( ).
- MANZ would tellyporta
- Snazz wagon was more, because that's the one I have ( ), but the secondary goal is to also take some heat off mek gunz
- Grots serve the Green Tide, keep crap out of the back field. They're so low on the priority list that they should go untouched.
- Mek Gunz are a hide, pop-out, and die unit. Math dictates that a full unit of laser chickens should shoot them, which means 2.7 D3+3 wounds. It will take the first two to kill one and the third was insurance. AC chickens will be -1D, so, they want to go all in as well. If they want to put that energy in and chance leaving a gun on the table then that's a risk they take.
Painboy is not very useful for 1w models other than if you plan to force 2 turn games in tourneyawithout turn-time limit. There's just too much d2+.
Mek guns are ld4, so squadding them is too dangerous. Having lost 1, you have 50% chance to loose another one.
Mad boyz prevent you from using breaking heads and from blood axe redeployment (which they are usually taken for in the first place). They also miss +1 to hit bonus aura from your warboss.
Not telling that you force yourself into wasting a ton of cp just to keep your troops from loosing extra bodies to morale.
Manz in a footslogging list - you're paying points to help your opponent's meltas pay off.
Snazzwagon - same here. You're better off with a squigbuggy that can hide from antitank out of Los.
2*20 grots with a runtherd. Grots in larger squads are only goodwhen you screen your buggies from t1 charge. Nothing to screen here. And 5 ppm grots with t3 and no armor...
All in all, it's a good list to highlight all the army's weaknesses.
- Madboyz would get the BRB autopass. I didn't intend on redeploy, but worth noting - thanks. - Painboy wouldn't roll on D2 weapons. If a TVC hit the unit I'd roll on the mortal wounds and let the rest ride. He exists for Vanguard, Sisters, melee in general, etc. If people are putting D2 guns into boyz with koptas, kannons, and wagon then I'm either really dead or doing well ( ).
- MANZ would tellyporta
- Snazz wagon was more, because that's the one I have ( ), but the secondary goal is to also take some heat off mek gunz
- Grots serve the Green Tide, keep crap out of the back field. They're so low on the priority list that they should go untouched.
- Mek Gunz are a hide, pop-out, and die unit. Math dictates that a full unit of laser chickens should shoot them, which means 2.7 D3+3 wounds. It will take the first two to kill one and the third was insurance. AC chickens will be -1D, so, they want to go all in as well. If they want to put that energy in and chance leaving a gun on the table then that's a risk they take.
- A single 2 CP autopass is not a reliable way to fix Morale
- People WILL be putting D2 shots on your Boyz if their D2+ weapons are shooting <S8t whilst also making your painboy useless as a compensation
- Tellyporta with a 9" rerolling charge is still not realiable
- Green Tide is a bad secondary that forces you to take the worst unit in the codex at a 20 size, at this point you're doubling down on being bad
- Mek Gunz only make sense as Freebooterz to trigger the armywide +1 to Hit. Nobody is scared by 45 points unreliable shooting unit that dies to anti-infantry weapons so there's no way anybody decent would shoot with "full laser chickens" units at them>
Tyel wrote: Perhaps its my ignorance, but how are you getting across the table? Because it seems like the bulk of those units are not doing anything until turn 3 (still a significantly risk if you go with strategic reserves etc) - which means most good armies will just be able to take them to bits on their terms.
I'm not sure you'd expect to get dramatically more points from Greentide than you would from a standard engage on all fronts. Killing 20~ boyz, 20 grots and 5 Kommandos shouldn't prove that much of a challenge.
Engage is 2 for 3 and 3 for 4. Green Tide is 3 for 2, which is covered by grots. Killing 20 Grots you can't see is a challenge all it's own let alone dealing with Boyz in front.
Evil Sunz would make it a bit faster, but if I'm not engaged until turn 3 I'm way ahead on primary.
- A single 2 CP autopass is not a reliable way to fix Morale
- People WILL be putting D2 shots on your Boyz if their D2+ weapons are shooting <S8t whilst also making your painboy useless as a compensation
- Tellyporta with a 9" rerolling charge is still not realiable
- Green Tide is a bad secondary that forces you to take the worst unit in the codex at a 20 size, at this point you're doubling down on being bad
- Mek Gunz only make sense as Freebooterz to trigger the armywide +1 to Hit. Nobody is scared by 45 points unreliable shooting unit that dies to anti-infantry weapons so there's no way anybody decent would shoot with "full laser chickens" units at them>
- Why isn't it a reliable way to fix morale? Orks have CP to burn and little to use it on most of the time. What it isn't is a reliable way to fix morale for 90+ boyz.
- People are way overstating D2 shooting. Let's look at popular lists for D2 shooting:
- I think a problem people have in their games is that they're too worried about connecting units immediately. Dropping MANz nearby into cover and not charging until the next turn is a valid useful play.
- Green Tide gives me a lot of cheap wounds that could be scoring one or two secondaries and keeping enemy RODs out of my backfield.
- Anti-Infantry weapons are generally shot ranged ( relatively speaking ). You aren't ever shooting them with those guns in a Hammerhead deploy and you're going to struggle to be in range and outside charge range of boyz on other deployments.
Green Tide should score 14 ( 5, 3, 3, 3 ). ROD should be an easy 12.
But.... morale, right? Why are people talking about 10 man Kommandos / Stormboyz? Same problem. What happens when you have Grisly Trophies on and you lose a buggy or two?
The tools are there, but no one wants to use them. Throughout this thread people have stated how bad morale is and how little CP many Orks start the game with.
The list above starts with 10 or 11 CP. That's more than enough for Breakin' Heads and Auto-Pass for two rounds, which is all you'll need for the two blocks. You've got Blood Axes for the ability to fall back from combat and charge deeper in. Couple that with a lucky Madboyz and Get Stuck In you could see them pile-in 9 friggin' inches. If they're not killy enough them Goffs.
No Prisoners only gives up 8 if they can't clear the grots - 12 otherwise. Grind Them Down is a risk, but the options for them to do that involve reducing shooting to the mobs up front.
KFF and Doc just give a little more edge on survivability. Why not Snaggas? It costs me 1.4 points per boy for KFF and I have flexibility for 5++. If my opponent is heavy shooting like Admech then I'm popping KFF Boosta. If they're melee like DE or BA? I'll keep the 6++ in melee.
This puts me at 14 models from 20 Vanguard using Enriched Rounds, 5 from a full Squig Buggy unit, 11 from 10 Halberd Interceptors ( FNP basically useless ). What do Interceptors do to buggies? About 17 wounds - with a pre charge smite that's probably two buggies.
An alternative could be to use the same expectation for propping up morale, skipping the KFF & Doc, and going mechanized alongside buggies. Do note that this is a random musing and probably isn't the most optimized for this style of list. I'd wager it will win you games - maybe not top 10 at a GT though.
KFF is useless, will only cover a unit or two and won't do much. You have 2 blocks of 30 boyz. You say "i'll just use CP to save them from morale!" ok, well that is all well and good for turn 1, turn 2 you just burned 4 CP to save 2 units from losing morale which left your grotz exposed, and you only need to kill 3 of them to force a 5/6th morale check. God help you if they kill the runtherd first, because than your little guys are running on 2s, and if they peg 10 models, its on 3s. To put it bluntly, you are going to lose a lot of models to morale turn 1, and if they go first you wont score your objectives.
You have no alpha strike/threats except the 1 blob of kommandos, 5 Stormboyz and 3 Deffkoptas. Since your Blood Axes you won't be benefiting much from CC bonuses which means your opponent can do what he wants turn 1 as far as target priority. You also have no shooting worth a damn, and spending 10pts on "souped Up speshul" its useless. That is literally 10pts spent to get 2 extra shots from your main gun at S5, Ap-2 and 2dmg. That works out to 0.66 extra hits a turn. beyond that you have 4 mek gunz in 2 batteries which leaves them with a 50/50 chance to lose both if 1 dies. (You are better off using auto-pass on mek gunz than boyz). and 4 Traktor kannonz aren't much of a threat beyond plinking wounds. 4 of them against a vehicle works out to 4 shots, 2.66 hits, 1.77 wounds and at -2AP that is about 6dmg a turn to a sub T8 vehicle. And the lootas? yeah, they are irrelevant for the most part. My comp list would steam roll this list turn 1, and the only way you would get points out of the game would be if you went 1st.
Crimson wrote: So how do the normal boyz compare to the Beastsnagga boyz?
Jidmah covered it pretty well. A beastsnagga at 11pts is better value than a Boy at 9pts. The problem is that you then have to build around beast kulture, IE beastbosses instead of warbosses. Next, they still have the same damn morale issues as boyz but its more damaging now that the models are 11pts each. You can't use the majority of the codex with Beast Boyz, specifically the only competitive use I have for boyz right now, which is Trukk Boyz, can't be done on Beastboyz. And finally, and most importantly, while a Beastboy at 11pts is better value than that Boy at 9...the boy isn't worth 9 to begin with. With how crippling Morale is for boyz, they could go back to 7ppm and they still wouldn't be an auto-spam/include.
KFF is useless, will only cover a unit or two and won't do much. You have 2 blocks of 30 boyz. You say "i'll just use CP to save them from morale!" ok, well that is all well and good for turn 1, turn 2 you just burned 4 CP to save 2 units from losing morale which left your grotz exposed, and you only need to kill 3 of them to force a 5/6th morale check. God help you if they kill the runtherd first, because than your little guys are running on 2s, and if they peg 10 models, its on 3s. To put it bluntly, you are going to lose a lot of models to morale turn 1, and if they go first you wont score your objectives.
You have no alpha strike/threats except the 1 blob of kommandos, 5 Stormboyz and 3 Deffkoptas. Since your Blood Axes you won't be benefiting much from CC bonuses which means your opponent can do what he wants turn 1 as far as target priority. You also have no shooting worth a damn, and spending 10pts on "souped Up speshul" its useless. That is literally 10pts spent to get 2 extra shots from your main gun at S5, Ap-2 and 2dmg. That works out to 0.66 extra hits a turn. beyond that you have 4 mek gunz in 2 batteries which leaves them with a 50/50 chance to lose both if 1 dies. (You are better off using auto-pass on mek gunz than boyz). and 4 Traktor kannonz aren't much of a threat beyond plinking wounds. 4 of them against a vehicle works out to 4 shots, 2.66 hits, 1.77 wounds and at -2AP that is about 6dmg a turn to a sub T8 vehicle. And the lootas? yeah, they are irrelevant for the most part. My comp list would steam roll this list turn 1, and the only way you would get points out of the game would be if you went 1st.
Grots won't typically be visible, so I imagine you'd use Rukks for that if you have them, which one would kill a bit less than 4 so I'll lose another 3.5. They're still scoring GT unless you commit more and every shot you put across the table is keeping me going up front. Runtherd isn't ever going to be an option to shoot.
Again, Snazz is what I have so that's the upgrade I took to burn points.
I don't think alpha is the goal or need. It's making you work hard to trade. I will gladly spend the 4CP to make you work harder for it. Green Tide might be an anchor that I can trade for more power mid-table, but that isn't really the point of the list.
Automatically Appended Next Post: For gaks and giggles - Goffs
I feel like you could massively improve that list by just splitting those blocks of boyz in six units of 10 and spreading the army across three patrols to gain more specialist mobs.
I also wouldn't consider the painboy anymore, if you really want to bring one, you can now have Doc Grotznik in any clan's detachment.
Jidmah wrote: I feel like you could massively improve that list by just splitting those blocks of boyz in six units of 10 and spreading the army across three patrols to gain more specialist mobs.
I also wouldn't consider the painboy anymore, if you really want to bring one, you can now have Doc Grotznik in any clan's detachment.
Eh. That actually feels vulnerable to morale and like ineffective tax units. Maybe if I wanted to run a bunch of trukks, but I don't own many.
6*10 is less vulnerable to morale and is much more flexible scoring-wise.
Lootas are an odd choice - especially for goffs. I'd probably just go for another buggy instead - especially since you actually own one.
Big mek is better off being upgraded to megamek with shiny shoota. He adds this needed ranged support and is still decent even for goffs - you own meganobz anyways - the only difference between a megamek and meganob is kff/tellyporta slapped on top.
Jidmah wrote: I feel like you could massively improve that list by just splitting those blocks of boyz in six units of 10 and spreading the army across three patrols to gain more specialist mobs.
I also wouldn't consider the painboy anymore, if you really want to bring one, you can now have Doc Grotznik in any clan's detachment.
Eh. That actually feels vulnerable to morale and like ineffective tax units. Maybe if I wanted to run a bunch of trukks, but I don't own many.
Not really. A unit of 30 suffering from 6 casualties will fail morale on a roll of 2+, which then causes another 5 casualties from morale. If that unit of 30 takes further 6 casualties to drop to 13, you will lose another 1 from morale and another 4 from attrition unless mob rule kicks in. In this worst case 12 unsaved wounds killed 22 ork boyz. The same 6 casualties to a unit of 10 will cause just 1.5 casualties from morale and is simply wiped out the next time getting shot without adding extra damage to your opponent's weapons and potentially making some overkill disappear.
So splitting them into 10's means you suffer a lot less from attrition and is essentially the same/better as getting a free breakin' eads on each of your mobs. Also, free nobz do not just add extra wounds and attacks, but a PK is usually still a better place to sink points than most kustom jobs. If you want to kill something you just pile multiple boyz units onto one target. Interruption is an issue, but you can mitigate that by just barely keeping most of the second mob out of engagement rage to force your opponent to direct most of their attacks towards a mob that has already fought. Then again, even with a mob of 30, you most likely won't be fighting with more than 10-12 models anyway because of the 1/2" rule.
If you are still not convinced, what benefits does a mob of 30 actually have? Unless you are running goff, there is essentially no stratagem support for boyz and the painboy/kff combo is dead anyways since morale will kill more boyz than saved by those two. On the other hand, there is a boatload of argument for bringing small units - they can be in multiple places, can perform multiple actions, hold multiple objectives, are less affected by chokepoints, less damage from blasts, can't be blended by single high volume of attacks unit. There are surely more, but you get the idea.
It's also worth pointing out that Semper is giving advice for winning in a highly competitive environment, while you seem to be aiming for more of a casual-competitive game.
Not sure if I'm on my own here, but I think the only reason to run 30 boyz is to Da Jump them turn 1, hope for a successful charge, then consolidate into a lot of shooting units effectively shutting them down (or limiting them) next turn - and providing a blob of bodies on your opponent's rear objectives to mess with their primary game. They now have to deal with the unit otherwise its probably gameover. This is however obviously unreliable - and will equally be more or less useful depending on your opponent. The reason for 30 boyz is to survive a moderate response - although obviously its not as good as it was in the days of the Greentide stratagem.
Arguably however Trukk Boyz are now a more reliable (and, especially if you think the weirdboy isn't doing anything else, dramatically cheaper) method of doing the same thing.
Also think morale can be... overstated. I think the killer is if it happens turn 1 in your deployment zone. By contrast say you go first and Jump 30 boyz up the table... but then fail a charge so they are left sitting in the wind. No one (to my mind) is going to shoot 6 and say "haha, morale, deal with it". Because in such circumstances the Ork player is immediately breaking out 2 CP to autopass and on their turn will have 24 Obsec bodies ready to very reliably go wherever they like.
I think the bigger problem is just that killing lots of Boyz remains not especially difficult even with the bump up to T5. A 5++/6+++ will undoubtedly help - but still. You also can't really hide 30 boyz. (Not really convinced you can hide 20 grots unless terrain is especially conducive to it, or your opponents list is very static.)
Jidmah wrote: I feel like you could massively improve that list by just splitting those blocks of boyz in six units of 10 and spreading the army across three patrols to gain more specialist mobs.
I also wouldn't consider the painboy anymore, if you really want to bring one, you can now have Doc Grotznik in any clan's detachment.
Eh. That actually feels vulnerable to morale and like ineffective tax units.
To expand on Jidmah's post the base 9E morale rules are heavily flawed in favour of MSU, and can have very unintuitive outcomes for Orks especially. The one most obvious problem is that morale punishes survival over loss. Combat attrition gets stronger the more models that don't die, rather than how many that do. For example:
If a 30-strong unit loses 14 models in a turn it only loses 2 or 3 models on average to attrition.
if a 30-strong unit loses 5 models and fails morale it can expect at least 4 more gone to combat attrition.
There's probably still a case for large units of Boyz outside highly-competitive games, such as when you want to make the most from Da Jump or a Tellyporta. But I'd be reluctant to use more than one, as their usefulness is capped by how often you can use stratagems like Insane Bravery to keep them running.
Tyel wrote: Not sure if I'm on my own here, but I think the only reason to run 30 boyz is to Da Jump them turn 1, hope for a successful charge, then consolidate into a lot of shooting units effectively shutting them down (or limiting them) next turn - and providing a blob of bodies on your opponent's rear objectives to mess with their primary game. They now have to deal with the unit otherwise its probably gameover. This is however obviously unreliable - and will equally be more or less useful depending on your opponent.
I don't want to pick this apart, but just getting off Da Jump and the first turn charge is 58.33% * 47.84% = 27.91%. Or in other words, it will fail in three out of four games, before you even consider screening or terrain.
So no, that is not a viable strategy by any measure, no matter how competitive your meta is.
I don't think there is any reason to run 30 boyz outside of crusade.
The reason for 30 boyz is to survive a moderate response - although obviously its not as good as it was in the days of the Greentide stratagem.
I have just proven that bringing 30 boyz is less survivable than bringing 3x10.
Also think morale can be... overstated. I think the killer is if it happens turn 1 in your deployment zone. By contrast say you go first and Jump 30 boyz up the table... but then fail a charge so they are left sitting in the wind. No one (to my mind) is going to shoot 6 and say "haha, morale, deal with it". Because in such circumstances the Ork player is immediately breaking out 2 CP to autopass and on their turn will have 24 Obsec bodies ready to very reliably go wherever they like.
They will shoot every mob to cause six or more casualties and then wipe the one that is in the best position. You then take your once-per-game stratagem so save 5 boyz and will be at full mercy of morale for the rest of the game. Or you just take units of 10 and ignore morale.
Tyel wrote: Save a CP to reroll on Da Jump and you are up to an 83%~ chance to cast. I don't disagree that 40%~ is unreliable though.
Basically I think footslogging boyz risk being too slow to do anything.
Well, many armies come your way to get objectives, so you don't have to do that 24" slog across the board anymore. However, boyz lack the ability to actually take down those units you meet in mid-field because they either are faster, get the charge on you and shred them, or they are extremely durable and despite taking some casualties from the improved choppas, they will endure and kill too many boyz in return.
Tyel wrote: Save a CP to reroll on Da Jump and you are up to an 83%~ chance to cast. I don't disagree that 40%~ is unreliable though.
Basically I think footslogging boyz risk being too slow to do anything.
Well, many armies come your way to get objectives, so you don't have to do that 24" slog across the board anymore. However, boyz lack the ability to actually take down those units you meet in mid-field because they either are faster, get the charge on you and shred them, or they are extremely durable and despite taking some casualties from the improved choppas, they will endure and kill too many boyz in return.
Yeah my kommandos bounced on skitarii infantry so badly last time, even with the +1 to wound... So boyz ? Hah, they would have done NOTHING. Boyz really didn't need to go up to 9. I agree with Semper, even at 7 I am unsure about how many I would currently bring (but they will never revert back to 7 ppm anyway, 8 ppm is the best we can hope GW does for us ork players).
Infantry for other armies has improved so much in such a short amount of time, ours kind of just sucks in comparison, even with T5 now... Sisters, ad mech, druka, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, the list goes on and on and on (mind you I am not only talking about basic infantry)...
GW will eventually find a way to make beast boyz comp, of that I am sure. Regular boyz ? Hmm, time will tell
Eh. That actually feels vulnerable to morale and like ineffective tax units. Maybe if I wanted to run a bunch of trukks, but I don't own many.
30 blobs are the definition of vulnerable to morale. kill 6 models and the unit fails morale on a 2+ and then suffers 5 more casualties on average, thats 5 dead boyz or 45pts to 1 morale check. conversely, that means if you spend 2CP on the strat, you saved 45pts....greentide pre-codex would theoretically bring back up to 232pts, and usually brought back 20-25 for 160-200pts...of course that was for 3CP. A unit of 10 Boyz have to lose 4 models to have a 50% chance to fail, assuming they do they only lose (on average) 1 to morale and then 5/6th chance to lose 1 more. The big difference? Even assuming you fail all 3 Morale checks on all 3 10 man blobs you would then only lose 5.5 Boyz to Morale while the enemy had to kill 12 on their own. That is a significantly better exchange rate then the big blobs, and if they go for the 6 dead to get a 5/6th chance to fail morale, they end up killing 18 models themselves and the units suffer 6 dead to Morale on average even with the failing attrition on a 1 or a 2. So to summarize, MSU orkz are significantly less vulnerable to morale than a single big blob, and you benefit from more nobz and most importantly....there is no benefit to running big blobs anymore except for maybe Warpath...but even then, I would rather take fists and put it on the warboss.
Boyz in Trukkz are also useless. Trukk Boyz are good though But those are 1 unit per detachment, The only reason Trukk Boyz are competitive is because of their alpha strike potential. The Trukk Moves 12, the Boyz hop out 3', move 5, advance D6 and then can Charge 2D6 on a WAAAAGH turn 1. that works out to a 23-38' threat range, with the AVERAGE being 30-31.
A Unit of Boyz in trukkz as opposed to trukkboyz has ZERO alpha strike potential except as a fringe deploy on the line in the open unit. 3' disembark, 5' move, D6 advance, 2D6 charge, possible threat range of 26' which is enough to cross no mans land, but it averages 18.5 which is 5.5 less than required to get stuck in. And that unit costs 160pts without any upgrades. For the same price I could take 14 stormboyz and have a guaranteed 18' move/advance at the cost of possibly 1 Stormboy, and then have a threat range of 30 and an average of 25.5 add in the reroll charge and it gets a bit better but, but the point being that you have an alpha strike capable unit as opposed to boyz in a trukk which don't really.
Tyel wrote: Not sure if I'm on my own here, but I think the only reason to run 30 boyz is to Da Jump them turn 1, hope for a successful charge, then consolidate into a lot of shooting units effectively shutting them down (or limiting them) next turn - and providing a blob of bodies on your opponent's rear objectives to mess with their primary game. They now have to deal with the unit otherwise its probably gameover. This is however obviously unreliable - and will equally be more or less useful depending on your opponent. The reason for 30 boyz is to survive a moderate response - although obviously its not as good as it was in the days of the Greentide stratagem.
Arguably however Trukk Boyz are now a more reliable (and, especially if you think the weirdboy isn't doing anything else, dramatically cheaper) method of doing the same thing.
Also think morale can be... overstated. I think the killer is if it happens turn 1 in your deployment zone. By contrast say you go first and Jump 30 boyz up the table... but then fail a charge so they are left sitting in the wind. No one (to my mind) is going to shoot 6 and say "haha, morale, deal with it". Because in such circumstances the Ork player is immediately breaking out 2 CP to autopass and on their turn will have 24 Obsec bodies ready to very reliably go wherever they like.
I think the bigger problem is just that killing lots of Boyz remains not especially difficult even with the bump up to T5. A 5++/6+++ will undoubtedly help - but still. You also can't really hide 30 boyz. (Not really convinced you can hide 20 grots unless terrain is especially conducive to it, or your opponents list is very static.)
Da Jump as you and Jidmah mentioned is not a reliable delivery system anymore. The chance of casting went down, the chance of charging went down and Evil Sunz lost their +1 to charge so as mentioned its at best a 40%ish chance to succeed. In a competitive game, you don't do this as a planned tactic unless you are out of all other options due to the massive chance for failure.
As for morale, I don't think it is overstated at all, in fact I think its understated. The Turn 1 Scenario is the worst case scenario for morale, but what would really happen if you had 3 blobs of boyz and 1 da jumped and failed its charge would be this. Da Jumped boyz unit would get annihilated. Every single boy in the 1st unit would be destroyed because the threat of a 2nd turn charge is far too great. Sadly for the Ork player, you just lost 270pts for no gain except as a "distraction carnifex". And then with whatever fire power the opponent had left he would target the boyz units and dish out enough dmg to likely trigger morale checks, preferably 6 casualties. After that they would reach out and touch things with heavy weapons. Honestly, if the Da Jump didn't go off perfectly its almost a guaranteed turn 1 loss. Assuming average rolls, you end up losing 30 boyz in the da jumped mob and any other blobs you have lose 11 each. So in the example above you lost 52 Boyz turn 1 for zero gain.
The problems with boyz are many and varied.
1: Price, they have gone up 50% in points since 6th edition.
2: Durability, for that 50% increase in price, they only gained T5, they still have 6+ armor and 1 wound.
3: Morale, with the change to morale, there is no realistic way to field Mobz of boyz.
4: Durability Buffs, The KFF giving a 6++ is a fething joke, if it was a FREE upgrade for a Mega Mek than maybe, but even then it would be a questionable upgrade as opposed to taking a warboss.
5: Dmg Buffs, Boyz lost a lot of inherent buffs. +1 to attack for 20+ models is gone, Warpath got harder to cast, Ghaz is no longer really worth taking which loses another +1 attack, they also lost a meaningful buff from their HQs. I don't want to wade through the codex but I think there is about 7+ different ways to give boyz +1 to hit in CC...but they already hit on a 3+
6: Stratagems, we lost Green Tide, We lost fight twice, we lost mob up, we lost basically every great stratagem for our army in general, but boyz specifically got hit hard.
As I said somewhere else, you could literally lower the price of Boyz to 7ppm and Beast Snaggaz to 9 and it wouldn't break the game. But you would see a few skew lists trying it out and the resulting catastrophic morale losses would be hilarious.
WoaH... 40K really needs a proper morale system... such an iconic unit as the Boys has been sent into oblivion mainly because morale hampers them in an extreme manner...and 9th edition is sort of an improvement over 8th... Wikes!!!
You spent 4CP to get 6x10. You also spent extra points on HQs.
Wat? A battalion can hold six troops and you want a patrol for the extra specialist mob anyways. You already have three HQs so you lose nothing by splitting, plus you could just drop the gretchin and just do one detachment for 0 cp.
Say you kill 12 of my 30. I spend 2CP and lose no more.
Yes, once per game, before you know whether you might pass anyways. And even if you auto-pass the first 6, the next time you will attrition will eat half of the boyz you just saved.
The issue is not losing the unit, the issue is doubling the efficiency of your opponent's guns against a unit that is not very durable to begin when trying to run a "I've got more models than you have guns"-strategy.
Morale will haunt you all game, you can't just throw your "Get out of jail free!"-card away turn 1. You need it for when a nob needs to stick around to either smash something with a claw or switch off objective secured to flip an objective with the help of units that don't have obsec. Giving up the ability also means that your opponent can optimize morale losses without you interfering.
I kill 6 of two 10 mans. You lose 2 plus 1 to 2 more.
Actually one more on average, as each mob is left with three models when rolling attrition. If you roll a '1' for morale, you lose nothing. Meanwhile, your mob losing 12 boyz also would lose one model guaranteed and an extra 3.833 boyz.
I'm ahead in models and CP. I might spend more CP eventually, but I have more to burn.
You cannot spend more CP. Insane heroism is once per game and breakin' eads requires you to be within 3" of a WARBOSS or NOB and still causes casualties.
You spent 4CP to get 6x10. You also spent extra points on HQs.
Say you kill 12 of my 30. I spend 2CP and lose no more.
I kill 6 of two 10 mans. You lose 2 plus 1 to 2 more.
I'm ahead in models and CP. I might spend more CP eventually, but I have more to burn.
Exactly why am I spending 4CP to get 6 units of 10 boyz? If I am taking that many boyz I am taking them in a battalion or brigade, not multiple patrols. Key take away though is that I am not going ot take that many boyz regardless of unit size because they are terrible for their points when compared to other units. If I want Choppy I go for Meganobz/Kommandos. If I want durable objective holders I go for Kommandos in cover, if I want cheap objective holders I go for MSU Kommandos or a unit of grots etc etc. There are few if any situations where a boyz unit carries out its job better than other competitive choices.
Also, your scenario would be killing 6 in each of 2 separate 30 Boy Blobz which cause you to basically auto-fail morale. Which you then have to spend 4 CP on to save or lose on average 10 more boyz. Compared to killing 2 Boyz in 6 mobz where each one has a 83% chance to pass morale. Statistically 1 should fail anyway which would then lose 1 to morale and 1 to attrition. Hence MSU is significantly more durable to morale than Big blobs.
Jidmah wrote: Wat? A battalion can hold six troops and you want a patrol for the extra specialist mob anyways. You already have three HQs so you lose nothing by splitting, plus you could just drop the gretchin and just do one detachment for 0 cp.
Right, right. I was going off your patrol comment. If I did that I'd probably go mechanized.
Painboss goes with MANZ. That with the bikes makes a little W3 oasis with a bunch of Ramshackle foiling most D2 and T5 W1.
I kind of like it because its very different - but intuitively I feel it just doesn't have enough teeth to meaningfully threaten anything. So it will be the close of turn 3 and you just won't have much of an army left, meanwhile you've inflicted scarcely any damage.
Crimson wrote: So how do the normal boyz compare to the Beastsnagga boyz?
Spoiler:
I actually meant competitiveness, but that was a great comparison too, so thank you! Beast snaggas seem to be somewhat smaller than I would have imagined.
Yeah from the kommandos the ork re-scale is more like the tweaks csm received than primaris to regular marines.
Slightly smaller head, slightly less bowed legs, slightly bigger torso to make it more in scale with the arms.
You spent 4CP to get 6x10. You also spent extra points on HQs.
Say you kill 12 of my 30. I spend 2CP and lose no more.
I kill 6 of two 10 mans. You lose 2 plus 1 to 2 more.
I'm ahead in models and CP. I might spend more CP eventually, but I have more to burn.
Exactly why am I spending 4CP to get 6 units of 10 boyz? If I am taking that many boyz I am taking them in a battalion or brigade, not multiple patrols. Key take away though is that I am not going ot take that many boyz regardless of unit size because they are terrible for their points when compared to other units. If I want Choppy I go for Meganobz/Kommandos. If I want durable objective holders I go for Kommandos in cover, if I want cheap objective holders I go for MSU Kommandos or a unit of grots etc etc. There are few if any situations where a boyz unit carries out its job better than other competitive choices.
Also, your scenario would be killing 6 in each of 2 separate 30 Boy Blobz which cause you to basically auto-fail morale. Which you then have to spend 4 CP on to save or lose on average 10 more boyz. Compared to killing 2 Boyz in 6 mobz where each one has a 83% chance to pass morale. Statistically 1 should fail anyway which would then lose 1 to morale and 1 to attrition. Hence MSU is significantly more durable to morale than Big blobs.
Yeah, current competitive thinking is generally "Spend 3CP to AVOID having to take any boyz...."
Yeah, current competitive thinking is generally "Spend 3CP to AVOID having to take any boyz...."
Which is what i predicted sadly. MSU boyz sounds good but they are too expensive for what little they do. And at that size they aren't very hard to shift off an objective. To kill 10 Boyz hanging out on an objective takes 36 Bolter hits. To shift 5 Tac marines which cost the exact same it takes 60 Bolter hits.
Honestly, Boyz at 9ppm without at least a 5+ Save is just ludicrously over priced. Add in their morale issues and its just flat out stupid.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, current competitive thinking is generally "Spend 3CP to AVOID having to take any boyz...."
I think the only thing allowing this is Dark Eldar. You have Raiders and Ramshackle. With DE being the 'army to beat' still people are working ways to kill those boats. Those methods are all S6/S7 D2 weapons. The exact weapons that Ramshackle loves.
If the bottom falls out on DE somehow you're going to see people move away from so much sub S8 mid-range and buggies will get their faces pushed in.
I don't know how that will happen, but people are going to need to stop taking so many TVCs. A Forgefiend with cannons and plasma head comes real close to what a TVC can do for just a little more points and does almost twice as much as a TVC does to a buggy.
Daedalus81 wrote: I think the only thing allowing this is Dark Eldar. You have Raiders and Ramshackle. With DE being the 'army to beat' still people are working ways to kill those boats. Those methods are all S6/S7 D2 weapons. The exact weapons that Ramshackle loves.
If the bottom falls out on DE somehow you're going to see people move away from so much sub S8 mid-range and buggies will get their faces pushed in.
I don't know how that will happen, but people are going to need to stop taking so many TVCs. A Forgefiend with cannons and plasma head comes real close to what a TVC can do for just a little more points and does almost twice as much as a TVC does to a buggy.
Agree in theory but not convinced in practice. I think Buggies will kill this "tech to Autocannonesque profiles" - which may further cement DE dominance, unless buggies have the advantage over DE (not sure if someone's analysed that specific matchup, and its probably a bit early for there to be much data.)
The issue though is that there are so many forms of army that beat "I'm bringing all the melta, the end". If 20% of the metaspace becomes buggies that might be a trade off worth making - but I wouldn't expect that to be the case.
I expect DE to just be murdered in an upcoming CA.
Something like: Raider up another 10 points then wyches, incubi, hellions, Court of Archon and wracks all up 1. Average army up about 100 points.
Tyel wrote: I expect DE to just be murdered in an upcoming CA.
Something like: Raider up another 10 points then wyches, incubi, hellions, Court of Archon and wracks all up 1. Average army up about 100 points.
Tyel wrote: I expect DE to just be murdered in an upcoming CA.
Something like: Raider up another 10 points then wyches, incubi, hellions, Court of Archon and wracks all up 1. Average army up about 100 points.
I'm hoping 'Herd the Prey' gets hit as well.
And yet none of that addresses the question of whether or not Boyz will be competitive. I think at this point we can safely say that they are not garbage tier, but they are definitely not top tier/competitive.
The last 3 Ork lists that placed had a combined total of.....0 Units of Boyz and/or Beast Snagga Boyz. Now, in fairness, 2 of the lists were piloted by the same Ork general. But it is rather telling that these guys aren't even taking troop taxes. They would rather lose CP and take other detachments without a troops choice because of how useless boyz are.
Tyel wrote: I expect DE to just be murdered in an upcoming CA.
Something like: Raider up another 10 points then wyches, incubi, hellions, Court of Archon and wracks all up 1. Average army up about 100 points.
I'm hoping 'Herd the Prey' gets hit as well.
And yet none of that addresses the question of whether or not Boyz will be competitive. I think at this point we can safely say that they are not garbage tier, but they are definitely not top tier/competitive.
The last 3 Ork lists that placed had a combined total of.....0 Units of Boyz and/or Beast Snagga Boyz. Now, in fairness, 2 of the lists were piloted by the same Ork general. But it is rather telling that these guys aren't even taking troop taxes. They would rather lose CP and take other detachments without a troops choice because of how useless boyz are.
It won't be a long lived reign. Buggies that go second against multiple stratoraptors have an uphill battle ( hence my preference for traktorkannons ) and will have an easier time against suppressors and TVCs. But the biggest benefit is they can take DE, which is the strongest gatekeeper to victory. TSGK may present problems for buggies soon, too.
Going second isn't as bad as it used to be because you can blow smoke cloud and KFF to soften the alpha strike - both work particularly well to combat weapons that are not affected by ramshackle.
Jidmah wrote: Going second isn't as bad as it used to be because you can blow smoke cloud and KFF to soften the alpha strike - both work particularly well to combat weapons that are not affected by ramshackle.
Fair point. People seem to be coming around on the KFF a bit?
Jidmah wrote: Going second isn't as bad as it used to be because you can blow smoke cloud and KFF to soften the alpha strike - both work particularly well to combat weapons that are not affected by ramshackle.
Fair point. People seem to be coming around on the KFF a bit?
I'm here for this. Someone should convert Zodgrod.
Sadly Zodgrod has a two-part head, so he doesn't fit on the MA body
MA big mek with ded shiney shoota (aka drive-by gangsta mek) is a great HQ to have around on its own, so spending 30 points for the one turn of 5++ is a good trade-of for losing the rather short-ranged tellyporta blasta.
It won't be a long lived reign. Buggies that go second against multiple stratoraptors have an uphill battle ( hence my preference for traktorkannons ) and will have an easier time against suppressors and TVCs. But the biggest benefit is they can take DE, which is the strongest gatekeeper to victory. TSGK may present problems for buggies soon, too.
Right, and when Buggy spam dies, Kommando and elite infantry orkz take over. Why take 5' movement boyz when I can take 12' movement Stormboyz who have an auto 6' advance move at the cost of a 50% chance to lose 1 model. Boy is 9pts and a stormboy with more than 2x the movement is 11ppm. And before you say "but meh trukkz!" except the aforementioned trukk boyz, to take a functionally useless except for transport ability ups the cost of a unit of 10 boyz from 90pts to 160. For 154pts I can take 14 Stormboyz, yes definitely not as durable as a trukk, but significantly better in terms of dmg output, especially since the Stormboyz can reliably move 18' turn 1 and have a 6' charge if your opponent is incautious enough to deploy on the line. Why take 9ppm boyz when I can take 10ppm Kommandos who get 3+ armor in cover and gain +1 to wound in cover. And those Kommandos can deploy 9' from the enemies deployment zone and move 6', leaving them with a 3' charge turn 1 if the enemy deploys on the line. failing that they can advance and charge since who cares about losing pistol shots and charge which gives them an AVERAGE charge range of 7.5' into the enemies deployment zone. Why take 9ppm shoota boyz who at best, in 9' Dakka range will average 1 hit per model at S4 when I can instead take 11ppm Burna Boyz who average 3.5 hits per boy at 12' range.
There just isn't a good reason to take boyz. Just about anything they can do can be done better for the same price or cheaper by a plethora of other units.
Kommandoz and Stormboyz are great, but are subject to the rule of 3, will probably cost CP to bring to avoid boyz, and if they're big enough to be threatening - morale, too. Kommandoz forward deployed are in a pretty precarious position unless the opponent can't ignore cover. And the Blood Axe redeploy is currently before first turn is known ( unless I've read that wrong ).
The basic Kommando 10 man is 120. Boyz in a trukk are 160 like you said and has room for a Warboss. +1 to wound is great - if that model is near cover ( obviously grot once ). Those Kommandos won't likely be near a Warboss and the math of +1 to hit vs +1 to wound is really quite similar in output. So then you have infiltration vs 12" move and 3+ in cover versus T7 4+ W10 Ramshackle. Boyz in a Trukk will do a much better job holding objectives. And if you have buggies or other vehicles that Trukk becomes de-prioritized.
To me it seems clear that GW wanted the book to come together in a specific way, which when talking about Boyz either involves Trukks or layered saves ( KFF, Painboy, Breakin' Heads ) and the answer is not none, but all units participating in cohesive roles for a battle plan. People that just tax a couple units of Boyz into the backfield will probably be better off going your route.
How do your Kommandos get to 120 points? Klaw, bomb squig, distraction grot, question mark? Seems a bit skewed to have all these things versus 10 naked Boyz.
I don't think GW had a plan for Boyz. I think they looked at the stat lineup and went "probably worth about 9 points". I don't think that's too unreasonable in the context of say Marine troops (Semper spits water all over the screen), basic Plague Marines and Sisters. It however seems overcosted in the context of DE and Skitarii. But there's a reason those troop units are usually kept MSU or just not taken.
The issue with Boyz is the same as its always been. Every faction can build an army to wipe 60ish T5 6+ save models a turn. In practice however it may not be able to do that and also destroy whatever is dominating the meta at the moment. This would be especially true if people moved to taking more multi-meltas etc because Buggies became a respectable portion of the meta. But right now they are not. I think a "Boyz-led" force running into "typical Ad Mech" is not going to go well. DE by contrast are more maneuverable than you, so should dictate engagements and kill you, at least once DE players factor in the Waaagh turn advance and charge.
This is why I doubt they'd make them 7 points - it doesn't make them any more interesting, but it doubles down on the skew. Because then I feel people would just run MSU boyz squads (lots of them), plus kommandos/storm boyz etc - and every army would have to be able to kill 50-60 Boyz a turn or almost inevitably lose due to having dozens of Obsec models flooding all over their objectives.
Its not impossible to imagine "new CWE" being really anti-buggies (blanket minus 1 to hit or something, cheap and plentiful lances). But then if "New Tau" get the damage output bonus of 9th, massed fire warriors could just murder Boyz.
"Cost CP" isn't really an argument when generic stratagems are among the ones most used by orks. You need a small contingent of 5-6 CP to do certain things, but beyond that CP are rather useless for orks. Rule of 3 doesn't matter much either, you can have 90 elite infantry models plus another 30 trukk boyz before you field a single regular boy or snagga boy.
I also don't want to pick apart everything, but that's not how you use warbosses, and even if you did, you ignored the costs for using one to babysit a mob of boyz. A warboss also can't disembark to follow after trukk boyz.
In general the whole scenario is very situational. Take the warboss and trukkboyz out of the equation and you end up with exactly what Semper was saying - a unit that is good at nothing.
Jidmah wrote: "Cost CP" isn't really an argument when generic stratagems are among the ones most used by orks. You need a small contingent of 5-6 CP to do certain things, but beyond that CP are rather useless for orks.
Rule of 3 doesn't matter much either, you can have 90 elite infantry models plus another 30 trukk boyz before you field a single regular boy or snagga boy.
I also don't want to pick apart everything, but that's not how you use warbosses, and even if you did, you ignored the costs for using one to babysit a mob of boyz. A warboss also can't disembark to follow after trukk boyz.
In general the whole scenario is very situational. Take the warboss and trukkboyz out of the equation and you end up with exactly what Semper was saying - a unit that is good at nothing.
In my head it wouldn't be trukkboyz. It'd be a sort of mechanized infantry list.
There are good strats in the clans and there's more if you build a list to use them. The book is oddly short of them so I imagine in GW fashion we'll see more in a Charadon book.
Kommandoz are largely the same as they were before with just more clear wording. And instead of being only 1 point apart they're now two ( but got one better on cover saves ). They were barely used before, but now they're amazing?
Kommandoz don't vastly outmatch Boyz. I think people just don't like the idea of having to use Breakin' Heads. If you're all about maxing trukk boyz that's cool, too. That doesn't mean Boyz are bad.
...I mean, yes, they got 3+ armor saves in cover, -1AP on their choppas, a way to manually trigger Throat Slittas, magical space marine infiltrate instead of regular deep strike turning them into a turn 1 tempo unit, and a bunch of other obnus bits and bobs and boyz lost a gak ton of their special rules...so Kommandos are amazing now.
They still suffer from being very easy to kill in melee, which for an infiltrate unit is a bad bad thing. But considering the whole package, they come out great.
Kommandoz are largely the same as they were before with just more clear wording. And instead of being only 1 point apart they're now two ( but got one better on cover saves ). They were barely used before, but now they're amazing?
Kommandoz don't vastly outmatch Boyz. I think people just don't like the idea of having to use Breakin' Heads. If you're all about maxing trukk boyz that's cool, too. That doesn't mean Boyz are bad.
Kommandos got an improved save in cover, a better wound bonus (Kommandos within 1" of terrain, rather than target being in cover), a way to get that wound bonus in the open, and a selection of improved special weapons--most notably the upgraded burna and bomb squig. And they got the same Toughness and choppa buffs that boyz got. On the flip side boyz have gotten heavily nerfed, losing almost all the abilities they previously used to be effective. There's a very significant difference between the two now.
theyre limited by Rule of 3 but thats really literally it. If Kommandos were a troops choice you'd only always ever take them and never ever take boyz. The reason to take boyz is:
1 - you want to save yourself some CP (so you take a unit of trukk boyz)
2 - you already took your 3x10 kommandos, and youre doing a speedwaagh list so stormboyz arent a T1 tempo unit, and you want more choppas, so rule of 3 makes you take more boyz than your one-unit minimum
3 - youre going for a goofy skew list that actually uses foot mobs for board control so you might as well take large numbers of 10-boyz squads after your 30 kommandos
Kommandoz are largely the same as they were before with just more clear wording. And instead of being only 1 point apart they're now two ( but got one better on cover saves ). They were barely used before, but now they're amazing?
Kommandoz don't vastly outmatch Boyz. I think people just don't like the idea of having to use Breakin' Heads. If you're all about maxing trukk boyz that's cool, too. That doesn't mean Boyz are bad.
Kommandos got an improved save in cover, a better wound bonus (Kommandos within 1" of terrain, rather than target being in cover), a way to get that wound bonus in the open, and a selection of improved special weapons--most notably the upgraded burna and bomb squig. On the flip side boyz have gotten heavily nerfed, losing almost all the abilities they previously used to be effective. There's a very significant difference between the two now.
AND space marine infiltrate instead of deep strike, AND a discounted power klaw on the nob that eats up 1/2 of the points bump they got right off the bat, AND a 5pt mortal wound ability in the bomb squig, AND T5 in addition to 3+ in cover, AND boyz didnt just lose out on the various abilities that put them up over kommandos in effectiveness on their datasheet, but all the units that buffed boyz got significant nerfs - KFF big meks went to 6++, ghazzy doesnt give the +1A anymore, weirdboyz' da jump + evil sunz turn 1 tempo use case is significantly significantly weaker.
you can maybe make the argument that 'theyre still good despite all that' but you've basically got to argue the 'despite all that' part. Boyz are SIGNIFICANTLY nerfed compared to where they were before the codex. Very, very significantly nerfed. I'm of the opinion that they would be an obvious balance problem with AP-1 choppas and T5 plus all their old stuff, sure, but the trade-off was a huge, huge hit in power overall.
Daedalus81 wrote: Kommandoz and Stormboyz are great, but are subject to the rule of 3, will probably cost CP to bring to avoid boyz, and if they're big enough to be threatening - morale, too. Kommandoz forward deployed are in a pretty precarious position unless the opponent can't ignore cover. And the Blood Axe redeploy is currently before first turn is known ( unless I've read that wrong ).
The basic Kommando 10 man is 120. Boyz in a trukk are 160 like you said and has room for a Warboss. +1 to wound is great - if that model is near cover ( obviously grot once ). Those Kommandos won't likely be near a Warboss and the math of +1 to hit vs +1 to wound is really quite similar in output. So then you have infiltration vs 12" move and 3+ in cover versus T7 4+ W10 Ramshackle. Boyz in a Trukk will do a much better job holding objectives. And if you have buggies or other vehicles that Trukk becomes de-prioritized.
To me it seems clear that GW wanted the book to come together in a specific way, which when talking about Boyz either involves Trukks or layered saves ( KFF, Painboy, Breakin' Heads ) and the answer is not none, but all units participating in cohesive roles for a battle plan. People that just tax a couple units of Boyz into the backfield will probably be better off going your route.
3 x 10 Kommandos, equipped how I like them (Bomb squig, PK, Distraction Grot),
3 x 10 Stormboyz W/PK 3 x 10 Trukk Boyz W/Trukkz
Just that is 1,200 Points. Add in the required 3 HQs and you are roughly at 1500pts. That is 3/4ths of a 2k point army that has ZERO regular boyz or Beast Snagga Boyz. And my tournament list finished with Mek gunz and Deffkoptas.
So yeah, rule of 3 I guess stops me from spamming 6 units of Kommandos like I did in 8th before rule of 3, but it doesn't really limit my ability to take elite alpha strike infantry. At no point do I need to fill in more boyz, in fact it would actually take away from my strategy of a super in your face, turn 1 alpha strike list.
And as for morale, the biggest unit is 10. If you force me into a morale check with 6 casualties, I at most lose 1 to morale and 1 to Attrition, that is it. Significantly better than 5 on a mob of 30.
Here is the math against T4. 12 attacks at +1 to hit is 10 hits, 5 wounds. +1 to wound is 12 attacks, 8 hits, 6.6 wounds. Against T5 its 3.33 wounds vs 5. +1 to wound is better. And the reason why Boyz in a trukk (Not trukk boyz) are bad is because its a 160pt unit that does nothing a cheaper unit can't do better.
In my head it wouldn't be trukkboyz. It'd be a sort of mechanized infantry list.
There are good strats in the clans and there's more if you build a list to use them. The book is oddly short of them so I imagine in GW fashion we'll see more in a Charadon book.
Kommandoz are largely the same as they were before with just more clear wording. And instead of being only 1 point apart they're now two ( but got one better on cover saves ). They were barely used before, but now they're amazing?
Kommandoz don't vastly outmatch Boyz. I think people just don't like the idea of having to use Breakin' Heads. If you're all about maxing trukk boyz that's cool, too. That doesn't mean Boyz are bad.
There are...basically zero good strats for a unit of boyz that wouldn't be better used on other units. Kommandos are NOT largely the same. They are a turn 1 alpha strike unit that can wound T7 on 4s with 30 attacks minimum. They got a bomb squig, they got a 3+ in cover...they are amazing, I honestly don't expect them to last long without a nerf for how good they are compared to the kraptastic stuff GW is pushing like beastsnagga boyz.
A boy is 9ppm, a Kommando is 11. The Kommando is a turn 1 Alpha strike unit that deploys in cover 9' from the enemy lines and if for some reason you don't go first it is a T5 unit with a 3+ save. Just for comparison so you understand, to shift 10 Kommandos (No nob) out of a piece of cover requires 20 Heavy Bolters. 20 Heavy bolters is 60 shots, 40 hits, 20 wounds and 10 dmg. 10 Boyz compared to that require 10 Heavy Bolters, also the boy will be Incredibly lucky to get a charge off turn 2 (average 8.5 movement with advance per turn).
Tyel wrote: How do your Kommandos get to 120 points? Klaw, bomb squig, distraction grot, question mark? Seems a bit skewed to have all these things versus 10 naked Boyz.
120pts of Kommandos is as you mentioned, Klaw, Bomb Squig and distraction grot. It is skewed since I am comparing an ELITE unit to a TROOPS choice unit. More so I am comparing a Unit of 10 Boyz in a trukk. They don't compare favorably at all.
Tyel wrote: I don't think GW had a plan for Boyz. I think they looked at the stat lineup and went "probably worth about 9 points". I don't think that's too unreasonable in the context of say Marine troops (Semper spits water all over the screen), basic Plague Marines and Sisters. It however seems overcosted in the context of DE and Skitarii. But there's a reason those troop units are usually kept MSU or just not taken.
I think you are right. I think GW looked at T5 boyz with -1AP choppas and though "WOW! These guys are going to break the meta, better give them a points bump!" And thats where the problems started. Because then someone else said "WOW! 9ppm T5 boyz! I better nerf the KFF" and then "better nerf Ere we go" and then "Better Nerf Mob Rule" and then "Better nerf buffing characters" And before you know it, you went from "WOW! T5 Boyz!" to "Wow....T5 boyz suck". I do think that a T5 boy compares relatively close to a Plague Marine or a Sister of battle, but as you mentioned, nobody takes those units Which is what boyz are doing right now as well...not being taken.
Tyel wrote: The issue with Boyz is the same as its always been. Every faction can build an army to wipe 60ish T5 6+ save models a turn. In practice however it may not be able to do that and also destroy whatever is dominating the meta at the moment. This would be especially true if people moved to taking more multi-meltas etc because Buggies became a respectable portion of the meta. But right now they are not. I think a "Boyz-led" force running into "typical Ad Mech" is not going to go well. DE by contrast are more maneuverable than you, so should dictate engagements and kill you, at least once DE players factor in the Waaagh turn advance and charge./quote]
But you don't need to wipe out 60ish boyz a turn anymore. In fact...there isn't a point to doing so anymore. Ork players were bringing 3-4 Big Blobz of boyz to tournaments (some even brought 5). If you didn't focus fire down a mob of 30 the Ork player would use 3CP to auto-regenerate up to 232pts worth of boyz and have them appear within 9' of the enemy...something I did more than once. If you let them get into your lines, you would get swamped with a horde of attacks and the +1 to attack AND the fight again strat. It was a bad day for someone if they got in.
But now? Lets say you took 5 Big Blobs of boyz. Instead of outright killing 60 boyz in 2 mobz you can instead kill 6 boyz in each of the 5 Mobz, you end up killing 55 Boyz thanks to Morale issues. And as I mentioned above, those boyz now pose little to no threat until at best turn 2 and even than they have to make some good rolls to get a turn 2 charge in. Assuming average rolls, turn 1 you move 8.5, turn 2 if you call WAAAAGH you move another 8.5 and you are now at 17' movement over 2 turns and if the enemy deployed on the line and never moved...that is still a 7' charge. 1 below average advance roll and you are looking at 8 or even a 9' charge turn 2 which is pathetically bad for a unit which is goign to cost you 270pts without even upgrading the nob.
Tyel wrote: This is why I doubt they'd make them 7 points - it doesn't make them any more interesting, but it doubles down on the skew. Because then I feel people would just run MSU boyz squads (lots of them), plus kommandos/storm boyz etc - and every army would have to be able to kill 50-60 Boyz a turn or almost inevitably lose due to having dozens of Obsec models flooding all over their objectives.
Its not impossible to imagine "new CWE" being really anti-buggies (blanket minus 1 to hit or something, cheap and plentiful lances). But then if "New Tau" get the damage output bonus of 9th, massed fire warriors could just murder Boyz.
Skew would absolutely be a problem, especially when you bring in more stuff like Kommandos, I openly agree. But that is literally the only way to be competitive with how bad their morale is. You either overload the board with a horde of cheap T5 bodies or you lose turn 2. At 7ppm you could get 180 boyz for 1,260. That is honestly too much and would slow the game down a lot. But even at that size, killing 36 boyz would result in ...ready for this? 66 dead boyz turn 1. That is literally more than 1/3rd of your horde dead Turn 1 simply by killing 6 boyz in each mob. That is how cripplingly bad Morale is.
The other option to fix boyz would be to give them back their old Mob rule or give them a rule that says boyz can never lose more then 1 Boy to attrition or something equally daft. At the moment a Marine player with 3 man MSU squads can't even fail morale, and in 5 man units its only if you kill 60% of the unit, and then it only fails on a roll of a 6. Which means at 4 its only a 1/3rd chance to lose the last guy to morale, not exactly the same scale when on average a Mob of 30 will lose 5
Yeah on Kommandos, for some reason I thought the Distraction Grot was also 5 points like the bomb squig and klaw so the combo came in at 115, can now see its 10 so 120.
I think its fair to say 4-5*30 Boyz is dead. There's a possibility a supplement may change that (morale protection, return of the Greentide Strat etc) but as it stands its too fragile and too slow.
Moreover Boyz are also not obviously worth it at 9 points versus Kommandos at 10, Storm Boyz at 11 or Burnas at 11. Arguably this is a good thing - since its usually been the ohter way round. However it means its not clear why you'd ever want small units of Boyz until you were maxed out on these - and since maxing them out means taking 9 squads, its unclear why that would ever happen in a 2k point list. It could be that there was some weird morale sweet spot that exists with 20 Boyz - but I'm not seeing it.
I'm therefore going to keep saying that Da Jump with 30 Boyz is the only logical reason to A) bring 30, B) bring any outside Trukk boyz.
Because 20% of the time, it works every time. (Terrain and screening may apply, psychic powers are not be for everyone, consult your warboss etc etc)
2 more Ork top 3 Finishes have been recorded in 40kStats. Both placing 3rd. Grand total of....1 MSU Ork Boyz unit that was a troops tax. The other list had a MSU grot unit as a tax unit.
So, with all of this said, i'll be re-starting this poll at the end of the weekend after we get some more tournaments and games in. I think its fairly safe to say that the massive freakout done by a few players, that boyz would unbalance the entire game has been entirely proven false. The main question of whether they are a competitive choice seems somewhat settled as well, but i'll post Tournament results since the codex dropped in the next poll.
).
Which is what boyz are doing right now as well...not being taken.