I’ve been to several 40k tournaments over the last few years from 1 day tournaments held by small gaming clubs and GW stores to popular CGN tournaments like Open War. But the first tournaments I went to were the Games Workshop’s official Grand Tournament and the first doubles tournament, so naturally I had high hopes for the 1st Throne Of Skulls.

When I first looked at the rules pack I was greatly concerned with the new scoring system, I appreciated the idea of calculating the average score of each race to find the best player as it brought a variety of armies to the tournament. But it was so easy to take advantage of, and sure enough there was a good deal of players that had brought hyper-optimized lists from known underpowered codexes like Necrons and the Witch-Hunters.

At the end of the weekend most of the tournament players felt cheated as the overall winner was a Dark Eldar player, this would have been okay but the fact there was only two Dark Eldar players at the whole tournament. So while other players had gotten the best scores out of 15-20 other marine and guard players this dark eldar player had won the tournament by beating just one player.

But this was also later revealed by players to be incorrect and that a space marine player had won it, which brings me on to the biggest problem; the scoring system.

I think the scoring system of 5pts for a win and 2pts for a draw is just too simple for a tournament with so many players taking part, this was later proven right when it was realised that there were multiple players with the same score, even with the extra points for best general; a system were you vote for your favourite opponent to give them extra points. This forced the events team to go with the best looking army roster which is stupid for a tournament tie-breaker and greatly annoyed the other players with the same score.

All the non GW tournaments I have been to have had a advanced scoring system to avoid such problems, a good example is the one used at Open War which uses a 20pt system for each round depending on the difference of objectives held and kill pts: 10/10 Draw, 13/7 Minor Victory, 16/4 Major Victory, 20/0 Exterminatus!
Plus they’ve also used Victory Pts as a tie-breaker rather than favourite opponent votes!

There were also other matters that ruined the tournament for me and other tournament veterans…

All the games were randomly generated so you weren’t fighting someone with the same score, it was rumoured that on the 2nd day they had split the players into a top and bottom half. A Ladder system is a huge requirement at tournaments and as a result only the last two games provided any real challenge!

With the exception of the Throne Of Skulls and Best Army trophy all the awards given for best generals were poorly made, certificates that weren’t even printed in the centre of the paper and placed in a cheap glass frame. I got an award for best army nominee and it pales in comparison when compared to awards won at smaller tournaments that cost 5 to 15 pounds.

Players also noticed that there was no free tea, coffee and biscuits in the mornings this year that was common at the previous Grand Tournaments.

Don’t get me wrong I enjoyed the company and the games played but as the GW official tournament it was a huge disappointment and felt like a weekend of random gaming which for £55 seemed like a big rip off.
Most of the players I had spoken to on Sunday evening also had a strong dislike of the new scoring methods. Saying that looking at the rosters to decide which of the 5 players had won made the tournament feel pointless. Most tournaments end with players having a sense of satisfaction but this was more disappointment and confusion.

The bottom line is I strongly recommend you don’t waste your money! I originally planned to request a ticket to the winter TOS for xmas, but after experiencing the poorly designed system I decided I’d be better off with a weekend tournament ran by a club, being held at Maelstrom games on the same weekend for half the price with evening entertainment and morning drinks provided.

Also I’ve sent a email off to GW expressing my views about the tournament’s lack of a scoring and ladder system and how it was a huge upset compared to the previous grand tournaments, I look forward to hearing their reply and if they plan to make any changes. If so I might consider attending the spring tournament.

Thanks for the Review. Sorry to hear that you were so disappointed with the scoring system.

Hopefully other will also forward thier commetns on any issues that they had.

I heard about this abomination. And yet there are always punters that are willing to shell out hard-earned $ to be abused at events like this. The mind boggles.

wolfshadow wrote:Hopefully other will also forward thier commetns on any issues that they had.

That will be a lot of people then, especially the ones who unlike me, were robbed of the 1st prize (oh yeah there were no 2nd or 3rd place prizes)

Wow thats probably the worst set of rules Ive heard of. Is there a reason why gW decides to totally abandon solid swiss pairings and the normal 40k rules? Thats absurd

I seriously believe they play and design games + Events in a total vacuum

It was a certain Jervis fellows brain child. And it's going to fail miserably. I can honestly say that most the people here in the US that won a ticket won't be attending unless it is free to the ticket holder and even then probably won't attend if they have to travel to it. It's only saving grace is it's in Vegas but now that I might be living in Minnesota I'd rather spend my travel money and time heading to Adepticon, BolsCon, Nova Open, and a Cali event or two.

Oh and this coming from such an obviously avid hobbyist only makes it more damning on the system. Cause no one out there can claim Proiteus isn't a pinnacle of the hobby judging by his armies

What Hulk said. It's a horrible system, and like most ill-thought-out system hurts the "Average" well-rounded gamer/hobbyist the most.

I don't know what Jervis was thinking. There are fairer ways to ensure all codices and list styles can have a "Shot" at swag and glory.

Was there a new rules pack for this tournament. The one GW has posted awards 3 points for a win and one point for a draw, and the FAQ for the rules states that they only do first round pairings random and that the other ones are paired on similar win loss ratio.

That does sound disappointing. I'm planning to attend the US one, but the packet (as vhwolf said) says 3pt W, 1pt D, and their event FAQ said that pairings are only among people with the same win/loss record.

Of course, now I can't find either the packet or the FAQ on their site. Can anyone else post a link?

The Throne of skulls pdf is posted in the ironman section of www.lasvegasgamersclub.com .

Seems like I am glad I did not get the ticket since I applied to late. Instead I am going to the UK 40kGT. Seemed like a better option.

Which "UK 40kGT"? I thought Throne of Skulls had replaced the GW GT?

sabote wrote:Instead I am going to the UK 40kGT

Throne Of Skulls is the new GT and this is the uk one I'm talking about.

Mannahnin wrote:Which "UK 40kGT"? I thought Throne of Skulls had replaced the GW GT?

GW yes. This is set up by many of the same people that play in the competitive GTs in the UK and do not like the Throne of Skulls format. Its also in the same place.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/318404.page

Ah, thanks for that.

Kind of funny that they didn't add "independent" to the name or anything to distinguish from the GW GTs everyone remembers, but it looks like a cool event.

Mannahnin wrote:Ah, thanks for that.

Kind of funny that they didn't add "independent" to the name or anything to distinguish from the GW GTs everyone remembers, but it looks like a cool event.

Many US tournaments don't really say independent in the header but if you read the body of the message they say they are set up in the independentuktournament forums.

Either way it really makes no difference to me if its put on by GW or not. For some reason maybe a hold over from the past people seem to think if its held by GW than maybe that adds more to the tournament.

All the GTs in the US have their own names.

"40k GT" is a descriptor over here, not the actual name of any events. The rationale being for ease of reference, and to keep them clear and distinct from the GW ones, even though GW hasn't run one in a couple of years. Just for clear communication and minimizing confusion.

It adds more to the tournament because most Indy tournaments haven't come close to the old GTs in the UK that I remember. It's not that 'GW does it' but that the ones GW used to run were fabulous events of gaming excellence where you were fed, you were drinking, you had a good time, and the rules stupidity was pretty minimal. All around smoothness.

What adds more to the tournament? I'm not sure what you're referring to. Do you mean the name "UK 40k GT" adds some value to it in some way?

Mannahnin wrote:What adds more to the tournament? I'm not sure what you're referring to. Do you mean the name "UK 40k GT" adds some value to it in some way?

No I mean having a tournament that is listed as GW apparently implies something to people which seems to be in some cases a more important tournament. If you go with what Zain60 mentioned than I guess there was a certain "standard" one could expect from a GW run tournament in the UK. Personally I was not that impressed by the ones run in the US.

I was not trying to make any point with the name UK 40K GT. The name really means nothing except one usually assumes that if an event is going to be listed as a GT that it will typically be a 2 day event with at least 100 players. But even that is not true in many cases.

sabote wrote:No I mean having a tournament that is listed as GW apparently implies something to people which seems to be in some cases a more important tournament.

I must say I thought so too, I have taken my new Grot Rebellion Mech Guard Army to 4 tournaments so far; The Yorkshire doubles held by the GW stores in yorkshire (£20), The Call To Battle Tournament ran by my own club (£5), The main CGN tournament Open War (£15) and last but not least Throne Of Skulls (£55). Which I expected to be the best one, being a held over 2 days instead of 1, but sadly it as a tournament it's the worst out of all 4 given that the other were better designed and cheaper.

It is most disappointing that the "official" tournament and by far the most expensive should be so poorly set up.

The answer, as with other GW disappointments, is to vote with your feet and your wallet.

This sounded terrible and now it sounds atrocious.

The indie tournaments are so much better. GW should look at these events which are not only popular but profitable and take notes. All of their events have gone tits up.

I doubt I will be going despite having my ticket. It sounds like a terrible event.

And another reason to avoid Tournaments.

Not all tourneys are like that, thank god. But crap this sounds bad. I thought maybe the OP was just havin a whinge when I saw the title thread and came in for a read anyway, but yeah I'd be upset too. Especially at having paid that much cash for it!

Mannahnin wrote:What adds more to the tournament? I'm not sure what you're referring to. Do you mean the name "UK 40k GT" adds some value to it in some way?

I certainly wasn't saying a name means anything. I was, however, pointing out that the old UK 40k GTs were the best tournaments I've ever been to and that I was always satisfied. The new Throne of Skulls format alongside the indy GTs which except for 1-2 very large and very well put together ones are struggling to get past the glitches and problems that make tournaments less fun, and much less worth the money you have to put into them to attend.

If I had spent hard-earned money and loads of time to be where the OP is in the hobby, get to go to the ToS tournament, and then see how insanely stupid the rules were, it definitely would make me less interested in playing competitively.

Mr Mystery wrote:And another reason to avoid Tournaments.

Anyways

We all kinda said that the format was bad within 5 minutes of reading the write up.

Sad tho... Throne of skulls is a great name : (

@Zain

I agree, but Let's be honest... Look how GW Boned the fantasy hobby... I hear a lot of people dropping it... and not even interested in the game enough now to finish a tourny... They have no idea how to balance a game anymore... OR make a competitive event.

We'll need to take up the task by putting on good events independently... and possibly allow Non GW minis just to start making the point that they should pay attention

Proiteus wrote:I
All the non GW tournaments I have been to have had a advanced scoring system to avoid such problems, a good example is the one used at Open War which uses a 20pt system for each round depending on the difference of objectives held and kill pts: 10/10 Draw, 13/7 Minor Victory, 16/4 Major Victory, 20/0 Exterminatus!
Plus they’ve also used Victory Pts as a tie-breaker rather than favourite opponent votes!

The Open War scoring system is the old old GW UK GT system, which was abandoned after pressure from players. It looks nice of paper, but you can end up with silly situations where people with 6 wins finish behind people with four wins.

I quite like the ToS system, and my perception from a flicks across TWF and Warseer is that it hasn't been as badly recieved as you intimate. Certainly it's different, but at least attempts to recognise the fact that some codices are born more equal than others withoiut resorting to some kind of subjective comp. Of course the events team have never been particularly good at implementing good ideas, but if you are any good at implementing ideas then GW can't afford you. Anyway, I will be going to the January one in the hope of picking up another inexplicably awful trophy, so I can see it for myself (and then the Indy GT in March).

torgoch wrote:

Proiteus wrote:I
All the non GW tournaments I have been to have had a advanced scoring system to avoid such problems, a good example is the one used at Open War which uses a 20pt system for each round depending on the difference of objectives held and kill pts: 10/10 Draw, 13/7 Minor Victory, 16/4 Major Victory, 20/0 Exterminatus!
Plus they’ve also used Victory Pts as a tie-breaker rather than favourite opponent votes!

The Open War scoring system is the old old GW UK GT system, which was abandoned after pressure from players. It looks nice of paper, but you can end up with silly situations where people with 6 wins finish behind people with four wins.

I quite like the ToS system, and my perception from a flicks across TWF and Warseer is that it hasn't been as badly recieved as you intimate. Certainly it's different, but at least attempts to recognise the fact that some codices are born more equal than others withoiut resorting to some kind of subjective comp. Of course the events team have never been particularly good at implementing good ideas, but if you are any good at implementing ideas then GW can't afford you. Anyway, I will be going to the January one in the hope of picking up another inexplicably awful trophy, so I can see it for myself (and then the Indy GT in March).

Actually looking at the other threads it seems like a few people are complaining, most people liked the atmosphere, and whoever from GW was in charge of that one event just did not know what they were doing. They did not even use the printed rules, or common sense.
The main real complaints seem to be the random missions for each table, and this is probably a valid complaint. There seem to be some people who don't think that your win loss ratio was not used to determine pairings but other people say that it was. If they used the GW spreadsheet to do pairings I can say the formula is not working correctly so that might have caused it to be right for some and not right for others. Announcing the wrong winner was just the judges not realizing the software was not calculating correctly.

From reading the other forums it seems that the player who actually one was one of the best players around and won games, so I think the competitive player won overall. Some of the people think he was a WAAC player and others don't but that is what is said of most of the tournament winners especially where there is no paint and sportsmanship score.

So I think the lesson here is try it for yourself before you decide it is a bad thing, you might have fun.

Just learnt that a group of tournament players who have attended each GT has sent an email directly to Jervis about the scoring and matching problems.

They maybe hope yet, if not it's just another event GW has ruined.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Got a reply from the events team about the issues above...

The Throne of Skulls format is Games Workshop’s new way of running what used to be the Grand Tournament, but this has led to some confusion. The Throne of Skulls is designed as a fun weekend where players come together to enjoy playing games with new opponents and the camaraderie of the Event. It is not the same competitive event that the Grand Tournament used to be. Obviously, there are still winners and losers, but the event focuses on the enjoyment aspect rather than purely winning and the ranking of players (which, for example, is why we don’t want to record Victory Points from the games). The way your club runs tournaments sounds cool but I can tell you that we will be continuing to use the same format, all be-it with some minor tweaks to help the event run more smoothly.

Well, I agree that it sounds atrocious.

To be fair, though, you should probably remove the following statement:

Players also noticed that there was no free tea, coffee and biscuits in the mornings this year that was common at the previous Grand Tournaments.

Honestly, it sounds a bit like the attendees felt a sense of entitlement. Makes you sound like a bunch of Americans. ; )

Eric

Proiteus wrote:Just learnt that a group of tournament players who have attended each GT has sent an email directly to Jervis about the scoring and matching problems.

They maybe hope yet, if not it's just another event GW has ruined.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Got a reply from the events team about the issues above...

The Throne of Skulls format is Games Workshop’s new way of running what used to be the Grand Tournament, but this has led to some confusion. The Throne of Skulls is designed as a fun weekend where players come together to enjoy playing games with new opponents and the camaraderie of the Event. It is not the same competitive event that the Grand Tournament used to be. Obviously, there are still winners and losers, but the event focuses on the enjoyment aspect rather than purely winning and the ranking of players (which, for example, is why we don’t want to record Victory Points from the games). The way your club runs tournaments sounds cool but I can tell you that we will be continuing to use the same format, all be-it with some minor tweaks to help the event run more smoothly.

This is basically extreme customer service failure. Events across the world have proven that it is EASY to hold an event where competitiveness, cameraderie, artistry, fun, perks and great times can all go hand in hand, and/or in parallel, with no conflict or negativity attached. I'd be embarrassed to send a response like this, if I were a multi-million dollar public company. It's effectively stating "we're not going to get any better, at all, shove it." The fact that GW puts out the pathetic crap that is Ard Boyz, and now Throne of Skulls, identifies a complete intellectual inability to go beyond forced divisions and lowbrow compartmentalization. L2P. There are dozens of ways to do an event, but that doesn't make them all equal, and this is near the bottom of the barrel. I frankly applaud people who independently are trying to run it similarly but not horribly (ironman).

Sounds like they took away your tea and crumpets, too.

I frankly applaud people who independently are trying to run it similarly but not horribly (ironman).

Sounds like they took away your tea and crumpets, too.

Thanks for the plug. I have been spending a lot of time reading all of the forums I could find to get feedback on the system. I can say for sure that we will be doing pairings based off of win loss ratio, and that there will be two missions that use 5 objectives and two missions that use kill points as well as using one of each of the deployment options with a fourth deployment type (it will be familiar to anyone who has played the game for more than 6 months) used to keep each game a little different. We will hand add the results as well as a computer program as I know the GW spreadsheet does not work.

I think people will find that even though it is a low cost one day event it will be a lot of fun.

More details at http://lasvegasgamersclub.com/

MVBrandt wrote: Events across the world have proven that it is EASY to hold an event where competitiveness, cameraderie, artistry, fun, perks and great times can all go hand in hand, and/or in parallel, with no conflict or negativity attached. ..........Sounds like they took away your tea and crumpets, too.

I'll only argue the semantics of the word EASY, and change it to POSSIBLE.)

What you did with NOVA, Mike, didn't necessarily look easy.) And I know how much my old bones ached after Border Raids last weekend.

Tea and Biscuits? Is that what they call food in the UK? I served sausage gumbo and smoked chicken barbeque at my GT.)

Proiteus wrote: hyper-optimized lists from known underpowered codexes like Necrons

This is where I stopped reading.

It honestly sounds like you're upset that you lost out to what you consider to be low-tier armies and just want to vent.

I like tournaments of all types, so I'd go to something like this.

mikhaila wrote:

MVBrandt wrote: Events across the world have proven that it is EASY to hold an event where competitiveness, cameraderie, artistry, fun, perks and great times can all go hand in hand, and/or in parallel, with no conflict or negativity attached. ..........Sounds like they took away your tea and crumpets, too.

I'll only argue the semantics of the word EASY, and change it to POSSIBLE.)

What you did with NOVA, Mike, didn't necessarily look easy.) And I know how much my old bones ached after Border Raids last weekend.

Tea and Biscuits? Is that what they call food in the UK? I served sausage gumbo and smoked chicken barbeque at my GT.)

Executing the tournament? Hard, regardless of format.

Designing a format that isn't a pile of "pisses off half the attendees" poo? Not as hard.

But I feel you.

Monster Rain wrote:I like tournaments of all types, so I'd go to something like this.

Well if you can get to Vegas on January 15th The Ironman XVII will be running this format with a few tweaks from the feedback.

vhwolf wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:I like tournaments of all types, so I'd go to something like this.

Well if you can get to Vegas on January 15th The Ironman XVII will be running this format with a few tweaks from the feedback.

Is there are link or something like that?

I'm right down the 15 from you guys.

Monster Rain wrote:

vhwolf wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:I like tournaments of all types, so I'd go to something like this.

Well if you can get to Vegas on January 15th The Ironman XVII will be running this format with a few tweaks from the feedback.

Is there are link or something like that?

I'm right down the 15 from you guys.

http://lasvegasgamersclub.com/ here ya go.

vhwolf wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

vhwolf wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:I like tournaments of all types, so I'd go to something like this.

Well if you can get to Vegas on January 15th The Ironman XVII will be running this format with a few tweaks from the feedback.

Is there are link or something like that?

I'm right down the 15 from you guys.

http://lasvegasgamersclub.com/ here ya go.

Hmmm... reasonably priced, relatively close and seems like fun. And now for logistics!

Thanks man.

mikhaila wrote:
Tea and Biscuits? Is that what they call food in the UK?

Built an Empire on Tea and biccies mate !

You used to get : free tea/coffee and doughnuts in the morning on arrival, then lunch ( and dinner at one point) on Saturday and then T/C and doughnuts and lunch -- usually a roast -- on the Sunday.

...them were the days eh ?

The GW GT's from the "Old Days" in the US included your hotel room, 3 buffet meals, and a pub quiz with prize support to the winners of the quiz questions. IMO, They haven't been the same in over a decade now.

The Throne of Skulls tournaments look like Jervis's attempt to bring balance to a game system that isn't balanced. The codex and army books are not equal. So in order to keep from seeing the same army builds over and over at the top tables, you have a Throne of Skulls style where you get a winner for each army. Speaking from a prize support stand, I like the idea of awarding each army type. What I don't like are the random opponents and tie breakers when you have so few scoring catagories and points to play with. When a draw is worth a much as a "Favorite Opponent" vote, it is easy to see players win tournaments regardless of how they scored in the game.

reds8n wrote:

mikhaila wrote:
Tea and Biscuits? Is that what they call food in the UK?

Built an Empire on Tea and biccies mate !

You used to get : free tea/coffee and doughnuts in the morning on arrival, then lunch ( and dinner at one point) on Saturday and then T/C and doughnuts and lunch -- usually a roast -- on the Sunday.

...them were the days eh ?

Fair point on the Empire Building.

I've been experimenting with serving up food at our tournaments. I just build it into the event budget, and don't go too crazy on the menu. I pick up bulk foods on sale, and spend some time cooking up batches of chili, stew, or gumbo in two big crockpots, or marinading and smoking stuff in my outdoor smoker. A bit more prep time, but keeps the cost down over just buying pizza or other prepared foods. Day of the tournament I bring it into the bunker in gallon ziplocks and reheat it.

I got the idea from the Inner Circle guys. Scooter and Kaleb used to do some amazing barbeques down at the Baltimore Bunker when IC ran tournaments there.

The lack of coffee is a legitimate gripe. Organizers are shelling out decent $$ to rent a hall or room. In October I was at a tournament in a classy hotel. We had one room with about 60 gamers. On the other side of the hotel was a nursing seminar. The hotel provided the seminar with coffee; all the gamers got were strange looks. If you are paying a few thousand $ for space from a hotel, make the bastards provide coffee. Who isn't hung-over for game 4 on Sunday?

Proiteus wrote:I’ve been to several 40k tournaments over the last few years from 1 day tournaments held by small gaming clubs and GW stores to popular CGN tournaments like Open War. But the first tournaments I went to were the Games Workshop’s official Grand Tournament and the first doubles tournament, so naturally I had high hopes for the 1st Throne Of Skulls.

When I first looked at the rules pack I was greatly concerned with the new scoring system, I appreciated the idea of calculating the average score of each race to find the best player as it brought a variety of armies to the tournament. But it was so easy to take advantage of, and sure enough there was a good deal of players that had brought hyper-optimized lists from known underpowered codexes like Necrons and the Witch-Hunters.

At the end of the weekend most of the tournament players felt cheated as the overall winner was a Dark Eldar player, this would have been okay but the fact there was only two Dark Eldar players at the whole tournament. So while other players had gotten the best scores out of 15-20 other marine and guard players this dark eldar player had won the tournament by beating just one player.

But this was also later revealed by players to be incorrect and that a space marine player had won it, which brings me on to the biggest problem; the scoring system.

I think the scoring system of 5pts for a win and 2pts for a draw is just too simple for a tournament with so many players taking part, this was later proven right when it was realised that there were multiple players with the same score, even with the extra points for best general; a system were you vote for your favourite opponent to give them extra points. This forced the events team to go with the best looking army roster which is stupid for a tournament tie-breaker and greatly annoyed the other players with the same score.

All the non GW tournaments I have been to have had a advanced scoring system to avoid such problems, a good example is the one used at Open War which uses a 20pt system for each round depending on the difference of objectives held and kill pts: 10/10 Draw, 13/7 Minor Victory, 16/4 Major Victory, 20/0 Exterminatus!
Plus they’ve also used Victory Pts as a tie-breaker rather than favourite opponent votes!

There were also other matters that ruined the tournament for me and other tournament veterans…

All the games were randomly generated so you weren’t fighting someone with the same score, it was rumoured that on the 2nd day they had split the players into a top and bottom half. A Ladder system is a huge requirement at tournaments and as a result only the last two games provided any real challenge!

With the exception of the Throne Of Skulls and Best Army trophy all the awards given for best generals were poorly made, certificates that weren’t even printed in the centre of the paper and placed in a cheap glass frame. I got an award for best army nominee and it pales in comparison when compared to awards won at smaller tournaments that cost 5 to 15 pounds.

Players also noticed that there was no free tea, coffee and biscuits in the mornings this year that was common at the previous Grand Tournaments.

Don’t get me wrong I enjoyed the company and the games played but as the GW official tournament it was a huge disappointment and felt like a weekend of random gaming which for £55 seemed like a big rip off.
Most of the players I had spoken to on Sunday evening also had a strong dislike of the new scoring methods. Saying that looking at the rosters to decide which of the 5 players had won made the tournament feel pointless. Most tournaments end with players having a sense of satisfaction but this was more disappointment and confusion.

The bottom line is I strongly recommend you don’t waste your money! I originally planned to request a ticket to the winter TOS for xmas, but after experiencing the poorly designed system I decided I’d be better off with a weekend tournament ran by a club, being held at Maelstrom games on the same weekend for half the price with evening entertainment and morning drinks provided.

Also I’ve sent a email off to GW expressing my views about the tournament’s lack of a scoring and ladder system and how it was a huge upset compared to the previous grand tournaments, I look forward to hearing their reply and if they plan to make any changes. If so I might consider attending the spring tournament.

I was about to say you sure were bitching, then I saw how much you paid. You seriously have my condolences.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Proiteus wrote:Just learnt that a group of tournament players who have attended each GT has sent an email directly to Jervis about the scoring and matching problems.

They maybe hope yet, if not it's just another event GW has ruined.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Got a reply from the events team about the issues above...

The Throne of Skulls format is Games Workshop’s new way of running what used to be the Grand Tournament, but this has led to some confusion. The Throne of Skulls is designed as a fun weekend where players come together to enjoy playing games with new opponents and the camaraderie of the Event. It is not the same competitive event that the Grand Tournament used to be. Obviously, there are still winners and losers, but the event focuses on the enjoyment aspect rather than purely winning and the ranking of players (which, for example, is why we don’t want to record Victory Points from the games). The way your club runs tournaments sounds cool but I can tell you that we will be continuing to use the same format, all be-it with some minor tweaks to help the event run more smoothly.

Wow I don't play in 40K tourneys any more but thats just lame.

olympia wrote:The lack of coffee is a legitimate gripe. Organizers are shelling out decent $$ to rent a hall or room. In October I was at a tournament in a classy hotel. We had one room with about 60 gamers. On the other side of the hotel was a nursing seminar. The hotel provided the seminar with coffee; all the gamers got were strange looks. If you are paying a few thousand $ for space from a hotel, make the bastards provide coffee. Who isn't hung-over for game 4 on Sunday?

The nursing seminar probably paid through the nose for the coffee. I've seen fees of 100.00 to 300.00 for 'Coffee Service'. You can try to build it into the package and get the hotel to throw in some freebies, but not always possible.

olympia wrote:The lack of coffee is a legitimate gripe. Organizers are shelling out decent $$ to rent a hall or room. In October I was at a tournament in a classy hotel. We had one room with about 60 gamers. On the other side of the hotel was a nursing seminar. The hotel provided the seminar with coffee; all the gamers got were strange looks. If you are paying a few thousand $ for space from a hotel, make the bastards provide coffee. Who isn't hung-over for game 4 on Sunday?

Ah, but the orgnizers for the nurse's event PAID for that coffee.
Looks like your gripe is with the ceap *ss organizer, and not the hotel.

Eric

vhwolf wrote:Thanks for the plug. I have been spending a lot of time reading all of the forums I could find to get feedback on the system. I can say for sure that we will be doing pairings based off of win loss ratio, and that there will be two missions that use 5 objectives and two missions that use kill points as well as using one of each of the deployment options with a fourth deployment type (it will be familiar to anyone who has played the game for more than 6 months) used to keep each game a little different. We will hand add the results as well as a computer program as I know the GW spreadsheet does not work.

Sounds like a great event! Too bad I'm so far away. I had a great time at the Iron Man in PA.

One tweak I might suggest- if you're doing Seize Ground twice, DON'T make them both 5 objectives. Make one of them 3 objectives, or both 4. That mission is supposed to have an average of 4, with the chance of a small number. Having it always default to 5 (as I've seen a few events do) skews the balance in favor of MSU mech armies.

As Man says above - always having 5 objectives makes it very tricky for certain army builds....

WE go with the Subway approach - costs a few £ per person, built into the cost, and theres normally enough left over for people to have some for the trips home. Not ideal, but given we normally only gain access to the venue about 30mins before registration its all we can manage.

Big buckets o chilli sound fab, as does smoked meat...mmmmm pulled pork

Next reply...

Thanks for the swift response.

Throne of Skulls is both a gaming weekend and a tournament – it does calculate the winner in a unique way but people still compete against other players for overall victory. I am sorry to hear that you did not feel that you got your money’s worth and clearly prefer the GT format. We are currently working on improving the Saturday night entertainment and also including more optional Friday evening activities. In regards to the random gaming and lack of competitive feel, it does say in the rules pack that winning is less important and that the throne of skulls is different to many other tournaments.

We constantly strive to make our events better so all this feedback is much appreciated and all will be addressed as we take the Throne of Skulls forward.

Many Thanks
Joe Cox
Events and Activities Coordinator

Seems reasonable.

The Throne of Skulls format is Games Workshop’s new way of running what used to be the Grand Tournament, but this has led to some confusion. The Throne of Skulls is designed as a fun weekend where players come together to enjoy playing games with new opponents and the camaraderie of the Event. It is not the same competitive event that the Grand Tournament used to be. Obviously, there are still winners and losers, but the event focuses on the enjoyment aspect rather than purely winning and the ranking of players (which, for example, is why we don’t want to record Victory Points from the games). The way your club runs tournaments sounds cool but I can tell you that we will be continuing to use the same format, all be-it with some minor tweaks to help the event run more smoothly.

That's more or less the point to be hit. Throne of Skulls is all well and good I suppose on the "get together and play some games" front, but the lack of a parallel rock-hard evaluation system screws the pooch and highlights how little they really care ... I think GW sees ALL tournament styles as basically just ancillary events ... not really a concern worth putting a lot of thought into.

Think on it this way - you run a coffee shop, and once a month you have a "book club" where one of your random employees who happens to like books will talk about one of his favorites, and people will get 5% off coffee. GW sees tournaments like that, and sees events of any kind like that (tanksgiving, etc. etc.). I just don't think they really care much.

im off to the next one and one i got my ticket and tourny pack i was sickened, in all probability i get 15 points 5 win on loss woot but then the guard average is 12 points. then boy necron gets 10 points and there is just him on his own playing necrons he wins without actually being the over all winner . sick

Battlecannon it phil wrote:im off to the next one and one i got my ticket and tourny pack i was sickened, in all probability i get 15 points 5 win on loss woot but then the guard average is 12 points. then boy necron gets 10 points and there is just him on his own playing necrons he wins without actually being the over all winner . sick

You actually need 2 players to have the chance of winning the tournament there was a Black Templar player but he couldn't beat his overall score so while he got best general for that codex his couldn't win the tournament.

My advice, sell or return the ticket and go to this weekend tournament at Mansfield on the same date for half the price for double the content: http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=74947

says in the tourny pack though if your the only person playing that army the average points to beat are 5. so sounds like the black templar player got a bumming by the organsiers. almost worth using a counts as dark angels army

I was at the tournament and saw the whole thing. Warhammer World is an impressive place for a tournament. And while the best player of each army award is a cool idea, the most important thing I think is that each person know the scoring system fully at the beginning. Yeah it sounded screwed up, but there is no excuse for a lack of clarity.

BTW, there were some great armies there and I enjoyed being a spectator, even if it cost my wallet since I couldnt stop keep going back for more Forgeworld from the store!

Alec

Bunker wrote:

Proiteus wrote: hyper-optimized lists from known underpowered codexes like Necrons

This is where I stopped reading.

It honestly sounds like you're upset that you lost out to what you consider to be low-tier armies and just want to vent.

You completely missed the point; it is not that he is griping about losing to necrons (or whatever made up scenario you decided happened to him). The players who performed the best were not winning, and everyone seems so stuck on 'underpowered codexes'. The dirty little secret is that they really are not that underpowered. Yes, a gap exists between the older ones and IG/SW, but it is not even close to as extreme as people make it out to be.

@OP (and his received emails): I get what they are trying to say to you, and that would be fine the 'fun gaming weekend' was only that. In North America, it has been decided that this tournament will decide the culminating winner of the 2010/11 GT Circuit, which would obviously be an atrocity if it plays out similarly (especially if the 'overall' winner won two games less than others).

I am still holding my breath for the tournament package coming in January. Who knows? It may have changed.

Bunker wrote:

Proiteus wrote: hyper-optimized lists from known underpowered codexes like Necrons

This is where I stopped reading.

It honestly sounds like you're upset that you lost out to what you consider to be low-tier armies and just want to vent.

Strange how that happened as I recall I won 4 games none of which were against 'a low-tier army', my only problem was randomly being pitted against 3 lesser player in the 2nd and 3rd rounds, on the 2nd games were randomly generated in a top and bottom half of the table. The only lost I suffered was against daemons and I went down fighting!

the winner not winning is the gripe, and if it was all ment to be for fun, then why put the word , tournament in the title of the event.

Zain60 wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:What adds more to the tournament? I'm not sure what you're referring to. Do you mean the name "UK 40k GT" adds some value to it in some way?

I certainly wasn't saying a name means anything. I was, however, pointing out that the old UK 40k GTs were the best tournaments I've ever been to and that I was always satisfied. The new Throne of Skulls format alongside the indy GTs which except for 1-2 very large and very well put together ones are struggling to get past the glitches and problems that make tournaments less fun, and much less worth the money you have to put into them to attend.

If I had spent hard-earned money and loads of time to be where the OP is in the hobby, get to go to the ToS tournament, and then see how insanely stupid the rules were, it definitely would make me less interested in playing competitively.

Ok sorry to drag the topic backwards a little bit (I have been busy with my degree so offline for a few weeks) but I thought as one of the organisers of the UK 40K GT it would be worth maybe explaining the choice of name.

When GW announced the new Throne of Skulls format they were very explicit in distancing themselves from the GT tag, as already discussed they are no-longer looking to run a competitive event. So when myself and a bunch of tournament regulars decide to get together and offer and alternative we obviously had to come up with a name. There was much discussion to be had and in the end we settled on the UK 40K GT tag for several reasons.

1. It does what it says in the tin. Its no nonsense and from the word go it tells you what you are signing up for. Also its short and rolls of the tongue easily. Which leads onto point 2...

2. We originally kept banding around the idea of calling it the Independent GT, but realised some things. Mainly that there are no tournaments called GT's in the UK anymore as the Throne of Skulls is no-longer a proper Grand Tournament in the strictest sense. We are in fact the only tournament to call ourselves a GT in the UK (everyoe else is called something random and catchy like Rapid Fire or Star Smash) and one of a very few that are totally comp free and gaming points only focused (many others have some form of comp and or points included for painting etc - none o which is wrong). So what are we independent from? GW? Yes but then outside of Throne of Skulls all tourneys are independent so what's the difference?

3. What we did think though was by saying Independent we may be viewed as trying to emulate the GW GT's. We are not, for one we are using a different venue and most importantly we believe that we can put on a better event. Big claim yes I'll agree but if anyone has ever been to Battle of the Chumps, Vapnartak, Toy Soldier or Open War you will know how on the whole those tournaments are much more smoothly and better ran the GW ones became over the years (and ex GW GT staffer summed the downward spiral as apathy amongst those in charge). Now those are good tournaments and the fact that the people who run them are on the UK 40K GT committee means we really do think we are going to put on something better.

4. Now that is not to say GW GT's have always been poor, as I said it has been felt that only over the most recent years has the standards slipped (see OP). Without a doubt for a long, long time the GW GT was the number event in the UK tourney calendar for the majority of the tourney community. So by using the tag UK 40K GT we in one part distance ourselves from Throne of Skulls but in a another steal the prestige of the 'old' GW style of GT and how well they were ran and received by the gamers. Which all again pulls back to our 3rd point that we think we can do easily as well, if not better.


I don't want to steal the thunder too much of what we have got in the pipeline for the event, an email and announcement (along with the 'living FAQ') is going to be sent out over Xmas. But as a taster we have over over £500 in the prize fund which is going towards some unique trophies, certificates and various prizes. We have also secured prize support from Maelstrom who are going to bee adding additional things in the prize pile (this hopefully will be the 1st of several sponsors). And there is much talk and plans about live pod and webcasts been streamed on the weekend itself, both for those unlucky not to get a ticket (there are 30+ people on a reserve list which is 25% of the overall capacity) and for the memories of those there. Lastly, and some may say most importantly, the venue bar is open till 2am on Friday and Saturday! So we have got a lot of plans for the evenings including a pub quiz which is going to draw upon that tasty prize fund I mentioned before.

Right I'm going to shut up as I have really gone off topic and rambled for a bit too long now. Hopefully you will all forgive me for trying to explain some of the ideas and plans behind the UK 40K GT.

Neil.

Well, there is a bit of a disconnect here, but I think most people are on the same page here:

1) The UK one was independent, and while not the ideal format for all it at least laid out expectations.

2) In North America it has been decided that this will be the culminating event to the competitive tournament circuit. They are marketing it as such. An event like that should truly place the top player (or close to) into the top placement, and most people do not have faith in the fact that this will occur. Someone will win that event, and be proclaimed the 'best player of 2010/11', and frankly it is kind of a joke.

I think the 2nd is the one people have issue with, and I realize I also played my part in hijacking this thread. My bad, but unfortunately we do not have an actual outlet to complain to the organizers. I feel that if the public has enough information that eventually attitudes will change.

Me personally, I would rather have no final event rather than have this format as it. If they just gave me an invite for my win, that would be fine by me, but they have clearly stated that it is the final for the circuit.

The name of the event has tournament in it, but they want it to be a fun weekend of games, so why the HELL put tournament in the title when its just not really is it. Throne of skulls gamming weekend or but not tournement, £55 pounds (thats like $1200 dollars ) for something we can do for free in warhammer world most days off the week (dakka weekend was free and the same deal and im looking forward to the next one)

I agree with all of the above. its being called a tournament... It SHOULD be called

Throne of skulls Games day.

Yeah I hit up a lot of events last year in part to get my ticket. Then I did and they released the format. I was still going to go when I was in Cali and it was a 4 hour drive to Vegas but now that I'm in the Midwest for who knows how long (hopefully long) for work I'd rather spend my traveling money on events like WargamesCon, Nova Open, and Adepticon.

Hi

What really bugs me about the Throne of Skulls format is the potential for a group of players to work together such that one of their number wins this event.

How can this be accomplished?

It's simple really.
1. A group of lets say 4 or more guys enter the event all using the same army book/codex. (In theory, two people playing Necrons could do it too if they were the only people playing Necrons at the event. But lets assume a popular codex with at least a few other people not in on the game that is a foot)

2. One person - either the acknowledged best player, or the one who draws the short straw - is nominated to go for the win and does his very best to win each and every round.

3. All the other players deliberately lose each and every game, maximizing the margin of victory for the chosen one compared to all other dexes. They would also need to be sure not to garner any favorite player/opponent/pretty army votes along the way for fear of increasing their scores and accidentally lowering the margin of victory for the chosen one.

But why would the others be willing to do this? Well, this way at least one member of their group has the opportunity to take home the hardware. Isn't that better than your group going out and playing within the spirit of the rules, only to not achieve anything? I suppose it is an ethical question - to play within the undefined "spirit" of the rules, or to maximize the potential of one player by pushing the boundaries of the rules (without actually breaking them).

This doesn't guarantee victory of course, but it has the potential to heavily stack the odds in favour of one person.

Cheers,
Nate

But why would the others be willing to do this? Well, this way at least one member of their group has the opportunity to take home the hardware. Isn't that better than your group going out and playing within the spirit of the rules, only to not achieve anything? I suppose it is an ethical question - to play within the undefined "spirit" of the rules, or to maximize the potential of one player by pushing the boundaries of the rules (without actually breaking them).

I can't imagine the prize that would cause three players to decide that it was worth it. Maybe it's just me, but I don't like any of my friends enough to throw all my games and have no fun in the process.

Team playing like this has been going on for years and can happen no matter what the format. Basically people who do this will look for how to break the system no matter what you put out.

Not if the format is single elimination.

Single elimination would be pretty much immune to team wining the tournament. However very few tournaments use this system as a lot of people don't want to pay and travel a bunch to not play after one round.

Single elimination can still be skewed, its just more subtle. Throw a game if your pal's army is stronger against the remaining field is the most obvious way, but there are certainly others. Depending on how the brackets are seeded, certain shennanigans can happen there, too. Admittedly, in a Swiss BP style format, its easier for cliques to game the system, if the TO is not on top of things.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The throne of skulls has so many issues that team collussion is the last thing people should be concerned with. Easiest thing to address this, however, would be to have "team prizes" for the highest collective win % from 5 man groups, which they used to do at the official GW GTs.

Bottom line is that competitive players will indeed vote with their feet and go to the independently run tourneys instead.

I wonder what the GW rationale was for moving away from the old GT format. Lots of older gamers I've spoken to don't like the new format and won't be going back.

troy_tempest wrote:I wonder what the GW rationale was for moving away from the old GT format.

The OP author received this reply in answer to his complaints and questioning of why they have changed things thus:

The Throne of Skulls format is Games Workshop’s new way of running what used to be the Grand Tournament, but this has led to some confusion. The Throne of Skulls is designed as a fun weekend where players come together to enjoy playing games with new opponents and the camaraderie of the Event. It is not the same competitive event that the Grand Tournament used to be. Obviously, there are still winners and losers, but the event focuses on the enjoyment aspect rather than purely winning and the ranking of players (which, for example, is why we don’t want to record Victory Points from the games). The way your club runs tournaments sounds cool but I can tell you that we will be continuing to use the same format, all be-it with some minor tweaks to help the event run more smoothly.

so ill be busting out my squat army and counting it as one of the under used armies, necrons, black temps, sisters of battle, grey knights, dark angels. all term dark angel army but using exo armour seems funny, to piss take levels

Battlecannon it phil wrote:so ill be busting out my squat army and counting it as one of the under used armies, necrons, black temps, sisters of battle, grey knights, dark angels. all term dark angel army but using exo armour seems funny, to piss take levels

If you do this please, please take photos, of the referees reactions.

Squats arent on the allows list of codexes, so the refs reactions will likely be to DQ you.

You could make them an IG counts-as army though, right?

Yep, howerver you would be using the IG armybook, a very popular one, thus defeating the point of the posters thoughts on "gaming" the system.

just use them as a counts as army, so would be counts as witch hunters to play their stupid game of beating the average

Battlecannon it phil wrote:ill be busting out my squat army and counting it as one of the under used armies, necrons, black temps, sisters of battle, grey knights, dark angels.

Nos1001 wrote:Squats arent on the allows list of codexes, so the refs reactions will likely be to DQ you.

Anyone interested in wagering on the fact that the 'refs' they will provide for this event do not actually know the nuances of tournament level rules calls and just decide everything by dice off?

Manna - he mentioned using exo armour, it confused me ok

Fearspect wrote:Anyone interested in wagering on the fact that the 'refs' they will provide for this event do not actually know the nuances of tournament level rules calls and just decide everything by dice off?

I'd wager that if a tough call came up, they'd take forever... but then... the Throne of skulls isn't made for competitive players who want a chess match in the 41st millenium and play by the rules

I've sent an email with a complaint about the format to mailto: NAtournaments@games-workshop.com

I was polite and expressed my concern.

Anyone else annoyed should do the same

frgsinwntr wrote:

Fearspect wrote:Anyone interested in wagering on the fact that the 'refs' they will provide for this event do not actually know the nuances of tournament level rules calls and just decide everything by dice off?

I'd wager that if a tough call came up, they'd take forever... but then... the Throne of skulls isn't made for competitive players who want a chess match in the 41st millenium and play by the rules

Since there is a possibility of that some of the refs will be the people that run the Indy GT's, you may be surprised at how much they know.)

I also just sent a letter. I know a handful of golden ticket winners (myself included) with no interest in going to this sham. What a let down.

Dashofpepper wrote:I also just sent a letter. I know a handful of golden ticket winners (myself included) with no interest in going to this sham. What a let down.

Yep, I still have my ticket for sale if anyone wants one

Yeah, I don't know if I want to go either. It sounds lame.

Darkwynn wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:I also just sent a letter. I know a handful of golden ticket winners (myself included) with no interest in going to this sham. What a let down.

Yep, I still have my ticket for sale if anyone wants one

Supply vs demand economics is going to put those things at less than a dollar pretty soon...

Considering how I don't really make it to big GT events, I was really looking forward to playing the best players in the country after I got my golden ticket. I am sad that this tournament may no longer give me this opportunity.

It sucks that the chances of figuring out who actually is the best (with this format) will have about as much success as getting justice out of a kangaroo court.

Ironic how many events more competitive than this one (if TOS can be said to be competitive at all) are to culminate in nothing more than a "group hugs and high fives" gathering. Maybe I will be named the best because of my "down low" high five skills? After all, GW might be "too slow" to come up with any better criteria.

Oh well, if I can afford it I hope to make waves in other bigger tournaments and see you guys around. I'll still be going to the LV TOS simply because I got some free hotel package for sitting through a silly time share presentation =).

If anyone does end up going, we should play for fun during the open gaming portion.

I hope people do vote with their feet. It's the only way these poxy events will disappear.

The thing is, if it disappears, it won't be replaced. They will take it as tournaments aren't worthwhile rather than 'we made a msitake as to the format of the tournament'.

skyth wrote:The thing is, if it disappears, it won't be replaced. They will take it as tournaments aren't worthwhile rather than 'we made a msitake as to the format of the tournament'.

so what you're saying is... it's better to have a bad tourny than no tourny at all?

I make no judgement as to which is better.

frgsinwntr wrote:

skyth wrote:The thing is, if it disappears, it won't be replaced. They will take it as tournaments aren't worthwhile rather than 'we made a msitake as to the format of the tournament'.

so what you're saying is... it's better to have a bad tourny than no tourny at all?

Some people obviously don't like the format, other people might. Who does and doesn't like it will be shown by the attendance. Poor attendance and it might get cancelled, good attendance and it will probably continue. But either way, keeping it doesn't hurt the people that don't want to attend, and cancelling it does hurt the players that do wish to attend.

Personal Opinion: My guess is that the UK wants the rest of the world to use the TOS format. Certainly the US is going to agree to that since Mr. Kirby is the current CEO of GW US. Given time, the UK model may change, or the US may use different rules from the UK. But right now that GW staff in the US don't have a lot of choice in the format. Send letters and express your views in a professional manner. Flames and rants won't change the minds of people, just burn them out and make them not want to host tournament.

Or try to do what we, a number of long term GT players, in the UK have done an organise an independent alternative that offers everything which was good about the old format, together with improvements gleaned from experience outside the GW circuit.

Granted I understand that the logistics of doing this in the US will be considerably harder than in the UK; larger geographical region and no dedicated gaming centres. But I am sure that if there is a will there is a way. aka enough of you get together then you could make it happen.

Oh we have excellent alternatives here in the US. We just wanted the culmination of the tournament circuit to be a competitive-ish event. Which this format isn't. But we've got the Nova Open, Adepticon, WargamesCon, and several others that have taken to a more competitive style and are selling out months in advance. Not to mention smaller events starting up like the Sprue Posse Grand Prix or Bolter Beach. We even have a large national invitational which the Nova Open is hosting

So to recap, it's not that we don't have better events. Just that we wanted a culminating event to be more than a hobby weekend. Hope that helps Skcuzzlebumm

YA, it's not about what's out there. The point is - many of the events on the circuit that yielded "finalists" were superior productions with a lot of time, energy and thought put into them.

Then GW releases the "Finals" format, and it's not only worse for hobbyists than most of what's out there, it's worse for competitors as well. It's basically a championship that is completely - on all fronts - inferior to the events that led up to it.

Plus - GW's response to complaint is basically "LOL WELL WE'RE STICKING WITH IT HURRR."


It's one big giant corporate Derp.

Sorry maybe I wasn't clear, I meant organise a player run event that is an end of season final/invitational/whatever equivalent to the Vegas GT, not just 'another' event

(i am aware the US is awash with tourneys).

Skcuzzlebumm wrote:Sorry maybe I wasn't clear, I meant organise a player run event that is an end of season final/invitational/whatever equivalent to the Vegas GT, not just 'another' event

(i am aware the US is awash with tourneys).

For 40k, Nova Open may just be pretty close to that. A good chunk of the guys winning tickets to TOS will probably be there. Probably a lot of the WFB tournament as well. They'll be mixed into a larger pool, but also have quite a few rounds to fight up to the top spots, which should easily sort people out.

MVB - That might be an interesting statistic to track. It would be fun to know what % of the possible TOS ticket holders attend the Nova.

Mike - I'll do that; in fact, I can probably cross ref w/ the pre-reg list already.

The Invitational also sort of has this component to it - and I have room to add more tournaments to the invite list.

1. Daniel Matulich
2. Mark Ferek
3. Andrew Sutton
4. Samuel Penson
5. Justin Hilderbrandt
6. Simon Leen
7. Alex Fennell
8. Chris Dubuque
9. Nick Nanavati
10. Mike Mutscheller
11. Brad Chester
12. Levi Joos

That encompasses NOVA, BFS, Mechanicon, DaBoyz, Sprue Posse, with 20 more spots to go that include BB2, WarGamesCon, Adepticon, and more who I've contacted. Could get the SVDM on the list, as well. This'll be book missions crossed with the NOVA format (rotating goals, w/l, yatta yatta), 5 rounds for $1,000 best general (solo 5-0), and 50/50 battle/appearance for $1,000 ren man. Happening Thurs/Fri before the NOVA Open GT.

The point is to do what GW is faltering with in terms of the Vegas Finals - by having a weak format, and by opening it to whoever wants to buy a ticket in 2012, they remove the incentive they gave the Indy guys as an advertising tool. Hoping the $2,000 in cash prize draw of the Invitational can help re-establish that "reason to go" to more than just one or your local GT's.

The Open itself as the 'big" event for us will - as you say - probably have all of those folks also playing in it, and anyone "missed" by the Invitational net.



Still, there's no ... legitimacy or formality to that. I make a point of not calling it a "championship" or anything, b/c we're not any kind of formal entity - none of us really are. That's the net bummer - we've got all these great events we're putting up and busting our butts with - you, me, everybody running the big circuit events. Yet, the final we're sending our people toward is ... crud. A few hours of JJ drivel I guess, backed up by the company line and no regard for honest self-assessment.

Well, the invite packages are supposed to arrive in January at some point. I am pretty sure that they do not include airfare, but I have heard of the possibility of rooms being provided.

If this is the case, I think it would be really great to make an alternate that weekend in Vegas anyway. Vegas is a great city to visit anyway, was going to make a vacation out of it anyway (plus airfare is so dirt cheap because it is comped by the casinos).

If rooms are covered then I might still attend. Airfare is generally only $200ish both ways because it's Vegas so that's not the concern. It was the combined costs that were turning me off. Other than the format that is. Also depends on if it interrupts any other well run events at the same time.

MVBrandt wrote:That encompasses NOVA, BFS, Mechanicon, DaBoyz, Sprue Posse, with 20 more spots to go that include BB2, WarGamesCon, Adepticon, and more who I've contacted. Could get the SVDM on the list, as well. This'll be book missions crossed with the NOVA format (rotating goals, w/l, yatta yatta), 5 rounds for $1,000 best general (solo 5-0), and 50/50 battle/appearance for $1,000 ren man. Happening Thurs/Fri before the NOVA Open GT.
The Open itself as the 'big" event for us will - as you say - probably have all of those folks also playing in it, and anyone "missed" by the Invitational net.

Love to add SVDM to that Mike. I'm sane and rested now, seems to take longer each year to get rid of jetlag after the xmas grind. Give me a yell sometime. Scooter will be up next weekend, I'll talk to him about what he needs help with for WFB at the Nova.

Its actually a really really good Tournament....

I went this past weekend, and had a great time, played against some really nice people.
There was a new feature that was quite cool, the judges were going around talking to people etc, and getting cool stories from the games, and putting up things like a single Space Marine captain killing most of a Grey Knight army up on a news board at the front. And then people were given awards for things like that.

It isn't an uber competitive win at all costs type of thing, which is good, its nice to have a big tournament that is like that.

It's not really a tournament is the point. It's a fun weekend event, and in that regard is perfectly successful. It's calling it a tournament and using the format for us national "championships" that people are getting worked up over.

rodgers37 wrote:Its actually a really really good Tournament....

I went this past weekend, and had a great time, played against some really nice people.
There was a new feature that was quite cool, the judges were going around talking to people etc, and getting cool stories from the games, and putting up things like a single Space Marine captain killing most of a Grey Knight army up on a news board at the front. And then people were given awards for things like that.

It isn't an uber competitive win at all costs type of thing, which is good, its nice to have a big tournament that is like that.

There are no WAAC tournaments, only WAAC players....

Besides this isn't a tournament, its a games day in disguise

So at Gamesday all you do is play tournament games?

rodgers37 wrote:So at Gamesday all you do is play tournament games?

How are these tournament games?

From The tourny email:
On to the Tournament itself! Below are just some of the exciting events and activities we have planned for you. See the attached document for extensive information about these events, the rules and more!

• A two day, 5 round, tournament on the Strip of Fabulous Las Vegas! Not really decisive on winner...

• Top notch terrain in the form of beautifully painted Realm of Battle Boards and Citadel Scenery ok

• A Team Challenge sub contest that gets you and others working collaboratively towards an exclusive prize gamesday esq...

• Scenario Gaming into the wee hours as we keep the gaming hall open until 2am on Friday and Saturday!gamesday esq...

• A Hero Painting Competition to see who has the best looking Army General gamesday esq...

• An all-materials-provided, Conversion Contest with prizes for the both the best built, and best painted creations gamesday esq...

• The return of the ever-popular Games Workshop Pub Quiz with drink specials ongoing gamesday esq...

• An opportunity to meet and challenge the best Games Workshop players in North America! ok

• Extensive online and printed coverage of the event, the great looking armies, and all the winners ok

Hope that answers your passive aggressive question

frgsinwntr wrote:

rodgers37 wrote:So at Gamesday all you do is play tournament games?

How are these tournament games?

From The tourny email:
On to the Tournament itself! Below are just some of the exciting events and activities we have planned for you. See the attached document for extensive information about these events, the rules and more!

• A two day, 5 round, tournament on the Strip of Fabulous Las Vegas! Not really decisive on winner...

• Top notch terrain in the form of beautifully painted Realm of Battle Boards and Citadel Scenery ok

• A Team Challenge sub contest that gets you and others working collaboratively towards an exclusive prize gamesday esq...

• Scenario Gaming into the wee hours as we keep the gaming hall open until 2am on Friday and Saturday!gamesday esq...

• A Hero Painting Competition to see who has the best looking Army General gamesday esq...

• An all-materials-provided, Conversion Contest with prizes for the both the best built, and best painted creations gamesday esq...

• The return of the ever-popular Games Workshop Pub Quiz with drink specials ongoing gamesday esq...

• An opportunity to meet and challenge the best Games Workshop players in North America! ok

• Extensive online and printed coverage of the event, the great looking armies, and all the winners ok

Hope that answers your passive aggressive question

I haven't gotten my info yet, so I'll wait for a final decision until I do, but given the above, I probably won't go. The tournament itself from all information on the format is not going to actually find a winner, due to weird algorithms of your record as a function of how well other people with your codex did (how this finds the winner, is beyond me).

What that info doesn't contain:

1) Any details on the tournament format, it's 1 line in an email...and its supposed to be the point of the entire thing
2) Any details on prize support. No offense, but if I'm shelling out 300 for a flight (if you get it cheap) + 2 nights at 55 dollars and 2 nights at 90 (another 300 dollars), the support, format, etc. all better be pretty awesome.

It just seems incredibly half-a'd from what we've heard so far, but, I'll with-hold final judgement until I get the packet details.

Well... no Ed has put a TON of work into this and offers a TON of prize support to all the events on the circuit. If anything he is to be commended for the amazing job he's done. In fact I think we all owe him a beer!

but we can still constructively criticize this event for not being a "culminating tourny"

In fact... here are the things I think are absolutley amazing:
1) we have an event at the end of the circuit to culminate it!
2) prize support for indy events are great
3) Ed is a great guy who even responded to my emailed concerns about the event.

here is what needs to change,
1) the way you determine the winnner.

If this is done it would be the pinnacle of GW events. it would have EVERYTHING. stuff for hobbyists (the gamesday esq stuff above...)and stuff for competitive folks a tourny with a determinate winner.

Why not have a second side tourny a GT for the circuit winners on the side....? I felt this was what was missing from the original gamesdays/GW gts... they should have been done at the same time and place.

frgsinwntr wrote:Well... no Ed has put a TON of work into this and offers a TON of prize support to all the events on the circuit. If anything he is to be commended for the amazing job he's done. In fact I think we all owe him a beer!

but we can still constructively criticize this event for not being a "culminating tourny"

Who is Ed? Some of my prizes came from him then?

He is to be commended if thats the case

If you don't like it, don't go....
I just remembered this thread, and after going Really really enjoyed the weekend, was really fun.

targetawg wrote:

frgsinwntr wrote:Well... no Ed has put a TON of work into this and offers a TON of prize support to all the events on the circuit. If anything he is to be commended for the amazing job he's done. In fact I think we all owe him a beer!

but we can still constructively criticize this event for not being a "culminating tourny"

Who is Ed? Some of my prizes came from him then?

He is to be commended if thats the case

Ed's a Fantastic guy. AND yes he should get a big thank you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rodgers37 wrote:If you don't like it, don't go....
I just remembered this thread, and after going Really really enjoyed the weekend, was really fun.

if you don't like this thread, don't post.

Yeah, Ed is to be majorly commended for the work he's put into the circuit as a whole. He did an amazing job keeping up with it this year in a not so easy year. He took the time to respond to me as well personally when I gave my opinion of the format for choosing a winner and answered some of my other questions. Heck, Ed was one of the few good people's in upper management that I remember from my time with GW. He's made sure there is enourmous support for all the events on the circuit. So by no means should any of the very small (but in effect major) issues we have with the format reflect poorly on him.

If they changed how the winner was selected I'd attend in a heartbeat. As it is I'll have to decide but it doesn't look good as I now live in the Midwest (or will officially in the beginning of February) and the cost of attending events means it might not happen. But then again maybe there will be a cheap flight weekend to get out there to hang with some gaming friends from Cali. We'll see.

Hulksmash wrote:Yeah, Ed is to be majorly commended for the work he's put into the circuit as a whole. He did an amazing job keeping up with it this year in a not so easy year. He took the time to respond to me as well personally when I gave my opinion of the format for choosing a winner and answered some of my other questions. Heck, Ed was one of the few good people's in upper management that I remember from my time with GW. He's made sure there is enourmous support for all the events on the circuit. So by no means should any of the very small (but in effect major) issues we have with the format reflect poorly on him.

If they changed how the winner was selected I'd attend in a heartbeat. As it is I'll have to decide but it doesn't look good as I now live in the Midwest (or will officially in the beginning of February) and the cost of attending events means it might not happen. But then again maybe there will be a cheap flight weekend to get out there to hang with some gaming friends from Cali. We'll see.

Do you think they'd let the Circuit winners run a side tourny? or not so much?

I blame too many Geometry courses, but sometimes I get really amused by the arguements over words, and no definitions to go with them. )

You need a definition of tournament before you can say something isn't one. (Hell, I'm still waiting for the definition and rules for using RAW.)

Ask me about NOVA 10 years ago, and I would have scratched my head and said "Of course it's not a tournament! There's no horses, and no one is running around in plate armor and hitting each other". http://www.housebloodguard.org/heavy-fighting Ask me 35 years ago and I've have been asking about weight divisions. Hmmm, can we do a 40k event where we group people by poundage? I bet the heavyweight division would be huge.)

Do some people not consider it a tournament? Sure, that's obvious. Other people do think it's a tournament. It's got wargaming a scoring system. Added bonus of Vegas and beer. I'm ok with calling it a tournament. You're going to have as many opionions on what is a tournament and what makes a good tournament as you have individual gamers.

Oh it's a tournament. Just not one in which I like the way the winner is determined. MVB had an excellent post in the other thread about it. It just might not be worth the cost of the trip with the rules the way they currently are. I'll wait for my packet to decide.

frgsinwntr wrote:

targetawg wrote:

frgsinwntr wrote:Well... no Ed has put a TON of work into this and offers a TON of prize support to all the events on the circuit. If anything he is to be commended for the amazing job he's done. In fact I think we all owe him a beer!

but we can still constructively criticize this event for not being a "culminating tourny"

Who is Ed? Some of my prizes came from him then?

He is to be commended if thats the case

Ed's a Fantastic guy. AND yes he should get a big thank you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rodgers37 wrote:If you don't like it, don't go....
I just remembered this thread, and after going Really really enjoyed the weekend, was really fun.

if you don't like this thread, don't post.

What?
I'm just trying to say, that this is a nice tournament, the scoring system is different, and a bit wired... But overall it makes for a decent event, and i think a really nice tournament, but if you don't like it, you shouldn't go..

Agree with Mikhaila on all points.

Folks dismissing events or saying they're "not tournaments" based on those events not meeting their own preferred criteria is un-good. It's needlessly divisive and comes off as hostility/superiority, which I'm darn sure is not what MVBrandt intended.

frgsinwntr wrote:
Well... no Ed has put a TON of work into this and offers a TON of prize support to all the events on the circuit. If anything he is to be commended for the amazing job he's done. In fact I think we all owe him a beer!

but we can still constructively criticize this event for not being a "culminating tourny"

Constructive criticism always fine. That's a decent point for consideration, that it might be different type of tournament than many people played in to win tickets, or that many people would love to see a national championship. I think the title of this thread throws me off, and the accusation that TOS is not a tournament at all.

And I plan on drinking many beers with Ed at Adepticon. I think we should all be buying him beer out there.

mikhaila wrote:Constructive criticism always fine. That's a decent point for consideration, that it might be different type of tournament than many people played in to win tickets, or that many people would love to see a national championship. I think the title of this thread throws me off, and the accusation that TOS is not a tournament at all.

Remember that the original post had nothing to do with Vegas, and was a review of an actual event in the UK (which replaced the old UK GT).

I'll throw in a round. Lord knows Ed it'll take quite a few people buying rounds to make a dent in Ed

I think people would have preferred a more competitive format for the pinnacle end of the season event. That is where I think the problem is. It's nothing like the events attended by other players to get their tickets and worse it doesn't create a clear/distictive champion of the event/circuit. I'm sure in every other way this will be an amazing event.

I just think this is where they missed the boat. To be fair I don't think Ed had any choice in how this was going to go from the get go and couldn't change it if he wanted to. But I can't be sure about that either.

Janthkin wrote:

mikhaila wrote:Constructive criticism always fine. That's a decent point for consideration, that it might be different type of tournament than many people played in to win tickets, or that many people would love to see a national championship. I think the title of this thread throws me off, and the accusation that TOS is not a tournament at all.

Remember that the original post had nothing to do with Vegas, and was a review of an actual event in the UK (which replaced the old UK GT).

So it was.)

Not to beat a point to death, but the biggest issue is that myself (along with many others) would like to see an overall champion crowned. Even in another tournament, one could argue that variables prevented the absolute best from winning, but it would be a fair representation.

I really, really want to play with all the best players to see how I stack up. I am sure I will be meeting most of them anyway this August at the NOVA, so that should be fine. I just wish the NOVA was in Vegas!

I'm tentatively planning to attend both; which hopefully maximizes my odds.

i enjoyed the days , only played one mouth breather, and the person who won the most games won the event and all the people who tried to be tech and take sisters, deamon hunters, dark angels, necrons just took a battering and over all winner was space wolves. still think the way its is worked out is dog eggs, but in this case the correct guy won. (i would have demolished him like).
I do think they should get rid of the sportsman style awards, i tabled 3 of my 5 opponents, and kill point game was 1-vs 8 to me , and those people took such a savage beating that i was never going to get best gamer style awards. I feel there should be a seperate award for this like the painting.

Mannahnin wrote:I'm tentatively planning to attend both; which hopefully maximizes my odds.

This = +1


I think people miss the subtle point that the event will be COMPETITIVE, even if it isn't very good at telling you who the best is ... everyone going is a winner of a 40k tournament, which means varying levels of "still the best-ish from where they went." It may not give you the granularity of result you'll get at something like the NOVA Invitational, but it's going to be "fun" and there's booze and it's in Vegas.

I can understand deprioritizing it over certain other events, but I wouldn't be super quick to crap all over it ... if you qual'ed, and can afford to go, you should consider it seriously. Plus, Ed's a cool guy.

MVBrandt wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:I'm tentatively planning to attend both; which hopefully maximizes my odds.

This = +1


I think people miss the subtle point that the event will be COMPETITIVE, even if it isn't very good at telling you who the best is ... everyone going is a winner of a 40k tournament, which means varying levels of "still the best-ish from where they went." It may not give you the granularity of result you'll get at something like the NOVA Invitational, but it's going to be "fun" and there's booze and it's in Vegas.

I can understand deprioritizing it over certain other events, but I wouldn't be super quick to crap all over it ... if you qual'ed, and can afford to go, you should consider it seriously. Plus, Ed's a cool guy.

Maybe I'm reading something wrong, but as far as I know they plan on selling excess tickets to the general public after they see how many of the "invitees" decide to go. Maybe this is only in future years and not this year though.

Quote from GW at: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=&categoryId=5200003§ion=community&aId=14700053

You will be able to enter the 2012 North American Throne of Skulls Tournament in one of three ways:

For FREE by placing 1st in one of the Independent Tournaments
For FREE by placing 1st in one of the Ard Boyz Tournaments
By PURCHASING a ticket when they become available in January of 2012

Maybe that's even more of a reason to go in year 1 while it's still "exclusive"

Maybe that's even more of a reason to go in year 1 while it's still "exclusive"

And next year is Memphis, not Vegas. Substitute bar-b-qued ribs, and moonshine for glitter and gambling. I'm looking forward to a couple of nights in Memphis, but am happy to hit Vegas this year. (Grew up near Reno, gambling is meh, Barbeque is king.)

I have been on the fence about attending this but have decided that if I'm not in Florida that weekend for work I shall fly out and play. I've not been to Vegas for a few years so the warrants should all have vanished by now

I might even take a semi-serious army if I'm going up against people bringing their A game / A armies. It will make a change from the comedy stuff I've been using at recent events