wikipedia wrote:A deus ex machina (Latin for "god out of the machine"; plural: dei ex machina) is a plot device whereby a seemingly inextricable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new character, ability, or object.
I thought everyone has one of these "WTF" moments, and it would be intersting to share them, so here it goes...
Example: Dragon Ball movie, "Legendary Super Sayan" (though it happens in each and every one): Take Broly, who is a nigh-on invincible super-powered killing machine who is unstoppable. He beats all the characters twice the hard they've ever been beaten (and over again), only to be killed by the main character (yes, that'll be Son Goku) with a Super Dragon Punch thanks to what little energy his beaten up friends gave him (and he could barely stand).
So basically, I'm proposing a discussion on the worst situations you've seen, when a character gets out of a seemingly impossible situation "just because".
In more recent films maybe it would be sensible to add a spoiler tag, just in case other readers don't want to have the end of Inception or whatever spoilt for them.
WoW, fighting the Lichking. actually, its a pair of them.
Spoiler:
Your group has been beating him down for about 20-30 min, and you get him to 10%... Boom he casts one spell, and everyone is dead. wait through his little "Im a Bad A" speech, and suddenly the guy who was frozen in ice the entire fight breaks out, destroys Frostmourn, and mass resurects the entire party... oh, and Arthas now just sits there in a pillar of souls letting you wail on him to finish off the fight.
Every movie where the government is able to conveniently cover up a horrible tragedy or destructive event without explanation so that the plot can move on without having to address it.
Mal won his fight against the Operative because it conveniently turns out that an old war injury protected him from a nerve strike the Operative uses to paralyze his opponents
When they were on the bridge and Tom Hanks was shooting at the Tiger with a pistol. You knew something was going to happen; maybe the bridge would be blown up, maybe another sticky bomb, or maybe a lucky bazooka shot. No, we had a P-51 fly out of the sky and shoot the hell out of it.
Fight Club: Blows out only the bad part of his brain! Really?
Matrix: She wakes him up from the dead with a kiss! Is Keanu sleeping beauty?
Saving Private Ryan: P-51 blows up a Tiger......with what? 6 .50 cal machine guns? I'm sorry but that is not gonna dent a Tiger and no it didn't drop a bomb. WWII bombing runs were not very accurate.
Lets not even talk about Independence day.
As far as Tolkien's eagles, they are a plot hole, not a deus ex machina. Had they just flew in and dropped the ring in the volcano the movies are irrelevant. Since the didn't its a plot hole......Why didn't they?
Fight Club: Blows out only the bad part of his brain! Really?
Talk about missing the point completely. The narrator only ends up shooting his jaw. He never actually blows out part of his brain. It's supposed to be symbolic. Up until that point in the movie, everything he had done had been in reaction to something else. By taking his life into his own hands, he shows that he no longer needs Tyler Durden.
chowderhead13 wrote:The crane in Toy Story 3. You are crying as the gang is about to die, the those god-damned green aliens swoop down with a crane, and save them.
What? It's a great movie.
If you were watching when they landed at the dump, you'd notice that the aliens went off to find the claw machine. And it's not like there was no build-up -- the aliens had been obsessing about claw machines since the first movie, and were 'saved' in a similar way in the first film. If anything, it's a rusty Chekhov's gun that took 15 years to go off.
My vote goes to The Odyssey. Yes, that Odyssey. Everyone gets home nice and happy, but pretty much the entire town wants Odyssius and his family dead. What happens? The Gods make everyone happy again. Seriously. What. The. feth. People talk about it like it's one of the greatest pieces of fiction ever, but the ending absolutely kills it. Yes, I know, Deux Ex Machina was a common tool in ancient Greek theatre and writing, but that doesn't excuse it.
Fight Club=no, he didn't touch his brain with the bullet it only injured his jaw. By shooting part of his jaw off he was able to reintegrate Tyler Durden back into his psyche, and no longer had a 2nd personality.
Matrix=no he was altering the code in her avatar.
Saving Private Ryan=no. It was a war where reinforcements came to save their bacon.
A real Deus Ex Machina needs to be where some all powerful force that could have solved the problem without any help from the protagonists in the first place decides to get off it's butt at the end of the film and squash the antagonists and/or fix all the problems. Like the planet Pandora James Cameron's Avatar.
Fight Club=no, he didn't touch his brain with the bullet it only injured his jaw. By shooting part of his jaw off he was able to reintegrate Tyler Durden back into his psyche, and no longer had a 2nd personality.
Matrix=no he was altering the code in her avatar.
Saving Private Ryan=no. It was a war where reinforcements came to save their bacon.
A real Deus Ex Machina needs to be where some all powerful force that could have solved the problem without any help from the protagonists in the first place decides to get off it's butt at the end of the film and squash the antagonists and/or fix all the problems. Like the planet Pandora James Cameron's Avatar.
So he shoots his jaw and that breaks tylers hold......ok.....wait what? Read the book, it's much better.
Actually, she kisses him and bring him back to life. Not the other way around.
The P-51 blows up the tiger, not the reinforcements. P-51's could not do anything to a Tiger Tank with it's guns. I dont think it would be dropping highly inaccurate bombs in the middle of combat. The tiger would have killed private ryan.
All these endings are ridiculous and insulting. Hollywood fairy tale crap.
Actually there is a great description of what a deus ex machina is in the beginning of the post. It's basically when something comes out of left field and solves the problem because some writer has pigeonholed themselves into a situation that even they can't figure a solution for. Hence a fighter with 6 .50 cal guns blowing up a tiger tank to save private Ryan. Ryan then looks at Miller and says "look p-51 tank hunters."
I've seen footage of p-51s blowing up moving trains, fine, but not a Tiger, no way.
Fafnir wrote:
My vote goes to The Odyssey. Yes, that Odyssey. Everyone gets home nice and happy, but pretty much the entire town wants Odyssius and his family dead. What happens? The Gods make everyone happy again. Seriously. What. The. feth. People talk about it like it's one of the greatest pieces of fiction ever, but the ending absolutely kills it. Yes, I know, Deux Ex Machina was a common tool in ancient Greek theatre and writing, but that doesn't excuse it.
Nah, that was awesome. Athena's been building up his wiliness the entire time! Either
that, or Homer's audience got sick of monsters and just wanted a straight up espionage
to shoot-em-up action sequence.
My vote goes to Medea. She goes through all this internal grief, kills her children, and
then gets teleported somewhere safe? Ha-ha Jason, you're a bastard?
The ending to Peter F Hamilton's 'Night's Dawn' trilogy. The galaxy's gone to crap, there's no possible way for humanity to survive ... and the hero finds a mysterious machine which instantly fixes everything just by essentially him thinking about it.
Blech. I appreciate he painted himself into a corner over the course of the trilogy but, c'mon ...
Mal won his fight against the Operative because it conveniently turns out that an old war injury protected him from a nerve strike the Operative uses to paralyze his opponents
I though that had already been mentioned in passing earlier on in the film it didn't come completely out of the blue which stops it being a deus ex machina.
There are some pretty poor examples in the new Doctor Who series, where the set up for the season finale has been solved effectively with the wave of a magic wand. The end of the first series had Rose 'look into the Tardis' which inexplicably made her a god-like being who then wiped the daleks from history and undid all the killing and damage done to Earth by them. Convenient, eh?
Fight Club: Blows out only the bad part of his brain! Really?
Matrix: She wakes him up from the dead with a kiss! Is Keanu sleeping beauty?
Saving Private Ryan: P-51 blows up a Tiger......with what? 6 .50 cal machine guns? I'm sorry but that is not gonna dent a Tiger and no it didn't drop a bomb. WWII bombing runs were not very accurate.
A number of P51s were built with four, British 20mm Hispani-Suiza cannons in case the 0.5-inch MG was inadequate.
Four Hispano-Suizas would have made a big mess of the roof armour on any tank in WW2, that's why the British used Typhoons and Tempests for ground attack.
I haven't seen the film so I don't know how the plane is depicted.
would the maps of the lociust tunnels conveniently in Marcus's dads house in GOW1 be DEM? IIRC it's not mentioned up until that point and not explained in the first game why they were there, but they still use them to great effect.
Da Boss wrote:Generally, Doctor Who is pretty bad for the Deus Ex Machina superscience endings.
Especially the season enders, but it happens in other episodes too.
There was a bloody battle in which the americans killed the crew of a tiger tank, however all of the americans who swarmed the tank were gunned down. After that point the battle is going down hill for the americans and they are pushed back to a bridge that they must hold or the germans could get through.
Then this happens.
Suddenly the P-51s come along and the battle is won, huzzah!
Destrado wrote:I must shamefully admit I never watched Saving Private Ryan, but...
...wouldn't Tom Hanks' character have to survive for it to really be a DEM? Not that I could properly contextualize the scene...
The end of A.I. - I still think it should've ended when he meets the Blue Fairy, none of that "alien" crap.
Not really.
There were a couple of brothers who joined the american army during WW2, in the beginning one of the brothers is killed in the D-Day landing and a story comes in saying that there is only one brother left alive. A group of soldiers is told to get the last living brother to bring him home safely. After a long while they find him in a town with a few other soldiers who are in charge of holding a random bridge in Europe. Tom Hanks and his men are supposed to get Pvt. Ryan out of there, but Ryan won't leave because he wants to fulfill his duties.
At that point the tanks come in a long with a ton of germans. The fight starts out well for the americans, but turns bad incredibly fast. They are pushed back to the bridge that they were supposed to hold(the bridge that Tom Hanks dies on) and Tom Hanks makes a last stand seeing as though all is lost. All of a sudden the tiger that is about to run Tom Hanks over explodes and P-51s start bombing the germans who decide that two P-51s are scary enough to cause them to run away even though they were winning the battle.
Youtube has the final battle split into 3 parts if you're interested.
I'm probably going to watch the movie. I've got a list of about a 100th warmovies to see, from Apocalypse Now and Thin Red Line to Clint Eastwood's Flags/letters. But the premise of Saving Pvt. Ryan is what's kept me from watching it, because a lot of guys are killed... to get a guy home, from what it looks like.
Its more like a lot of people are killed because the guy they are trying to get home doesn't want to leave before the battle to be honest. Most of the people who go with Tom Hanks don't die until the last battle and the only reason why they are there is because Ryan feels obligated to stay and help defend the bridge.
Har, I thought they were dying long before they even got to him...
Well, I still might give the movie a look. The same guys who did the movie also did Band of Brothers, right? I've been wanting to get that for ages.
Fight Club: Blows out only the bad part of his brain! Really?
Matrix: She wakes him up from the dead with a kiss! Is Keanu sleeping beauty?
Saving Private Ryan: P-51 blows up a Tiger......with what? 6 .50 cal machine guns? I'm sorry but that is not gonna dent a Tiger and no it didn't drop a bomb. WWII bombing runs were not very accurate.
A number of P51s were built with four, British 20mm Hispani-Suiza cannons in case the 0.5-inch MG was inadequate.
Four Hispano-Suizas would have made a big mess of the roof armour on any tank in WW2, that's why the British used Typhoons and Tempests for ground attack.
I haven't seen the film so I don't know how the plane is depicted.
True but those were exceptionally rare (like less than 300 rare, of those i'm not sure that any saw real combat operations) as these were the P-51a with the terrible Allison engines. The later P-51 was a great fighter but as a dedicated tank hunter it was a waste of its capabilities and its water cooled engine was susceptible to ground fire. The U.S. had much better ground attack, tank hunter options at the time and decided to use the p-51 at what they excelled, long range fighter/interceptor/escort.
Now I wont nitpick about them using a bubble canopy P-51D in the movie even though that model was not available yet. It could have been any plane really. I just don't see any craft making an accurate attack run in the middle of a close assault. To me that run counts as a DEM.
Most any G.I. that was within spitting distance of the 88mm barrel of a hostile tiger was not going to be saved, and certainly not by a passing P-51.
How did the bomb land so far *ahead* of the plane? The Tiger explodes and it takes a good second or so for the plane to appear from the smoke above the destroyed tank. Do bombs now speed up to land ahead of aircraft when dropped? Surely the plane should at least be over the tank when it explodes or even have passed over Tom Hanks. :p
Fight Club: Blows out only the bad part of his brain! Really?
Matrix: She wakes him up from the dead with a kiss! Is Keanu sleeping beauty?
Saving Private Ryan: P-51 blows up a Tiger......with what? 6 .50 cal machine guns? I'm sorry but that is not gonna dent a Tiger and no it didn't drop a bomb. WWII bombing runs were not very accurate.
A number of P51s were built with four, British 20mm Hispani-Suiza cannons in case the 0.5-inch MG was inadequate.
Four Hispano-Suizas would have made a big mess of the roof armour on any tank in WW2, that's why the British used Typhoons and Tempests for ground attack.
I haven't seen the film so I don't know how the plane is depicted.
True but those were exceptionally rare (like less than 300 rare, of those i'm not sure that any saw real combat operations) as these were the P-51a with the terrible Allison engines. The later P-51 was a great fighter but as a dedicated tank hunter it was a waste of its capabilities and its water cooled engine was susceptible to ground fire. The U.S. had much better ground attack, tank hunter options at the time and decided to use the p-51 at what they excelled, long range fighter/interceptor/escort.
Now I wont nitpick about them using a bubble canopy P-51D in the movie even though that model was not available yet. It could have been any plane really. I just don't see any craft making an accurate attack run in the middle of a close assault. To me that run counts as a DEM.
Most any G.I. that was within spitting distance of the 88mm barrel of a hostile tiger was not going to be saved, and certainly not by a passing P-51.
I don't think it's too far to assume that those "less than 300 rare" P-51As, modified for ground support, were likely tasked to...y'know, ground support operations for the largest operation of the European theater.
The most likely explanation is that the aircraft were not computer generated, and there happen to be more P51s and replica, small scale models of them still operational than other WW2 types like the Tempest, so this type was the most easily available for the scene.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Having now watched the scene, it is clear to me that any firing from the P51 would probably have hit Tom Hanks's character as well as the tank.
Andrew1975 wrote:So he shoots his jaw and that breaks tylers hold......ok.....wait what? Read the book, it's much better.
Nah, the ending to the book makes the mistake of attempting a far too literal conclusion to the story's religious themes. The film had a far better ending, and Chuck Palahnuik agrees with this, famously saying the film had a much superior ending.
All these endings are ridiculous and insulting. Hollywood fairy tale crap.
That doesn't make it a deus ex machina.
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Destrado wrote:The end of A.I. - I still think it should've ended when he meets the Blue Fairy, none of that "alien" crap.
They weren't aliens, they were highly advanced robots looking for the long dead race that had created them - mankind. Ending with the blue fairy would have left the films themes almost entirely incoherent.
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Andrew1975 wrote:True but those were exceptionally rare (like less than 300 rare, of those i'm not sure that any saw real combat operations) as these were the P-51a with the terrible Allison engines. The later P-51 was a great fighter but as a dedicated tank hunter it was a waste of its capabilities and its water cooled engine was susceptible to ground fire. The U.S. had much better ground attack, tank hunter options at the time and decided to use the p-51 at what they excelled, long range fighter/interceptor/escort.
So you appear to have no problem with the incredibly incompetent German assault that saw them lose multiples tanks and countless troops assaulting a position defended by a handful of lightly armed paratroopers, but you have a problem that the film used the wrong plane in a tank hunting role. Okay.
Andrew1975 wrote:True but those were exceptionally rare (like less than 300 rare, of those i'm not sure that any saw real combat operations) as these were the P-51a with the terrible Allison engines. The later P-51 was a great fighter but as a dedicated tank hunter it was a waste of its capabilities and its water cooled engine was susceptible to ground fire. The U.S. had much better ground attack, tank hunter options at the time and decided to use the p-51 at what they excelled, long range fighter/interceptor/escort.
So you appear to have no problem with the incredibly incompetent German assault that saw them lose multiples tanks and countless troops assaulting a position defended by a handful of lightly armed paratroopers, but you have a problem that the film used the wrong plane in a tank hunting role. Okay.
Oh no, don't get me wrong that whole last battle was ridiculous and unrealistic in almost every way conceivable! You could write whole books on that. Just talking about the DEM.
By exceptionally rare, I mean yes they were produced but were not in service for very long once they discovered the Merlin engine. So yes they were produced, no they were not in use during the time, i don't think there is record of the Mustang getting tank kills anytime during D-day. P-47 was used at this point. But Spielberg believes that mustangs were the greatest plane in any role.
Clue.
Nobody has any idea who is the killer, Then the "butler" recounts the murders in order to eventually point the finger at.... well that depends on which ending you get.... Though the ultimate one has him admitting to not only being the killer, but "Mr. Body" as well.
Andrew1975 wrote:Oh no, don't get me wrong that whole last battle was ridiculous and unrealistic in almost every way conceivable! You could write whole books on that. Just talking about the DEM.
sebster wrote:
They weren't aliens, they were highly advanced robots looking for the long dead race that had created them - mankind. Ending with the blue fairy would have left the films themes almost entirely incoherent.
Not sure what you mean by themes. But the robots finding him, and granting him "a wish"... Sounds a bit too far-fetched.
On the topic of Mass Effect 1 - can't recall correctly, but I thought that Saren dying made little or no impact. The reaper wasn't invincible, and the combined armada took it down. Though it could also have been that a part of the reaper's "conscience" took over Saren.
Then it got confused when he didn't respond to pings.
Destrado wrote:Not sure what you mean by themes. But the robots finding him, and granting him "a wish"... Sounds a bit too far-fetched.
The film asks if a robot can be programmed to love. It answers this question with an emphatic 'no' - they can be programmed to need another person, but this is a shallow mimic of love. Sure, that mimickry is a great advance for robots and by giving a robot a need it has spurred it into creativity of it's own, but David's anxious need for his mother is clearly not love. Had the film ended with the blue fairy then it would have been a well made but ultimately very simple movie.
Instead, we are given a final act, and presented with robots 2,000 years later, here these beings show nothing but concern for David's feelings, and simply want him to be happy. They are capable of love, and so the film answers a different question, 'can a robot love' and the answer is certainly 'yes'. It then finishes with David recieving the love from his mother he had never received before, and tells us that David then began to dream. In being loved, even for one day, David became capable of love. Suddenly we have a fascinating idea, that robots could never be programmed to love, but will certainly have the capacity to develop it of their own accord.
Despite all that, it ending with his power-levels drained and using that last time to repeat the memories he had of his mother would've had an interesting effect, too, without using that DEM of sorts.
But thanks for clearing it, it does bring the movie's ending into another perspective.
Destrado wrote:Interesting, I didn't think about it that way.
Despite all that, it ending with his power-levels drained and using that last time to repeat the memories he had of his mother would've had an interesting effect, too, without using that DEM of sorts.
It would have been a very different movie, though.
But thanks for clearing it, it does bring the movie's ending into another perspective.
Happy to have offered another way of seeing the movie.
malfred wrote:Thanks for explaining A.I. I'm suddenly fine with the ending.
Fafnir wrote:It does go on a bit too long though.
True, and the thing about space time leaving a pattern so you could recreate a person for one day was, well, pretty silly.
•The shinpu (in English, "Divine Wind", also known as "kami kaze") were a set of typhoons in the years 1274 and 1281 which prevented Mongol invasions of Japan.
IIRC the P-51 depicted was a D variant which afaik never had the 20mm
Some Mustangs had triple barrel "bazooka" type rocket launchers for ground attack.
The appearance of air support, no matter how unlikely, still wouldn't be deus ex machina. Not unless the air support was always available but was unusued.
The characters in Saving Private Ryn held off long enough for air support to arrive, which makes their actions meaningful and heroic. If they had buggered out, the air support wouldn't help hold the bridge.
Mal's war wound in Serenity isn't even close to Deus Ex Machina. It's a fine example of Checkov's Gun, to be sure. But it's no more DEM than any other unlikley event that allows a hero to prevail.
The worst example of DEM in a movie is in the Wizard of Oz. Dorothy arrives, and Glinda tells her to go the Wizard, who sends her to kill the Wicked Witch of the West, who welches on his promise. Who shows up to tell Dorothy how to get home? Glinda! Who could have sent her home in the first reel. She even says it: "you had the power all along."
In the liberation of Europe the allies had a system of forward aircontrollers, so that air support caould be called up quickly. (Known as Taxi Ranks)
The problem with Saving Private Ryan is that no one calls up air support iirc Aircraft were often allowed to attack targets of opportunity but as mentioned, a single P-51 with 6x.50 cal Browninings ain't gonna do squit to a Tiger.
I take the point you are making Polonius but it is not so much the presence of the Mustang, but what it does to help the plot so I reckon it is as much a Deus Ex Machina as every episode of Bleach or Naruto. There is always one of the gang beaten, about to be put to trhe sword, the baddy swings weapon, casts spell of doom...
but inevitably someone turns up in the nick of time.
Ok, you're not understanding DEM then. Showing up in the nick of time to save the day is not Deus Ex Machina. Showing up in the nick of time, when you were capable of doing so the entire time, is DEM.
The mustang helped with exactly one problem: the Tiger tank. The heros of SPR could not have done everything they did, even if the mustang had showed up at the beginning. They still stormed a beach, took out a machine gun nest, and held off the assault without aid. More importantly, the Mustang couldn't have done those other things.
DEM occurs when something appears to solve the central or all of the problems in the plot, and makes the actions of the heros more or less redundant.
Polonius wrote:Ok, you're not understanding DEM then. Showing up in the nick of time to save the day is not Deus Ex Machina. Showing up in the nick of time, when you were capable of doing so the entire time, is DEM.
The mustang helped with exactly one problem: the Tiger tank. The heros of SPR could not have done everything they did, even if the mustang had showed up at the beginning. They still stormed a beach, took out a machine gun nest, and held off the assault without aid. More importantly, the Mustang couldn't have done those other things.
DEM occurs when something appears to solve the central or all of the problems in the plot, and makes the actions of the heros more or less redundant.
Doesn't it have to be a hitherto un-introduced character to truly qualify, though? That would invalidate the 'Wizard of Oz' example. I'm just thinking aloud here, btw.
Sheridan falls to his death at Z'ha'dum only to be saved by The First One dwelling there that was never mentioned previously in the series.
No one knew it was lurking there, it's the most powerful and ancient thing there is and therefore not even the Vorlons had a clue...
gorgon wrote:Can't believe no one's mentioned ST:TNG. There's about 5 seasons worth of of DEM.
Yeah, every other episode involved altering the deflector dish to spew some random thing at some random thing and win. Federation ships should just be made of hundreds of Datas and hard light holograms on defiant ships covered in deflector dishes, creating self replicating mines.
Da Boss wrote:Generally, Doctor Who is pretty bad for the Deus Ex Machina superscience endings.
Especially the season enders, but it happens in other episodes too.
True, tardis can suddenly do this random thing, sonic screwdriver can suddenly do that random thing... also the Dr headsmacking himself and saying 'but of course, I remember what this is!' 5 mins from the end of the episode and winning... Lets hope far less of this with the passing of RTD.
A deus ex machina (Latin for "god out of the machine"; plural: dei ex machina) is a plot device whereby a seemingly inextricable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new character, ability, or object.
A Mustang shooting up a Tiger Tank to get the heroes out of a tight scrape is wholly implausible.
Bleach characters by this definition may not be appropriate.
However the machanism is still too frequently used to change a situation and often in the context of the stoty arc is imho Deus Ex Mechina
Your mileage may vary Polonius but your comment as to what I don't understand is wide of the mark..
Jurassic Park: Our heroes have been fleeing the evil raptors for a good portion of the film. But, they've ended up trapped and surrounded by the raptors in a large open space with no where else to hide. One of the raptors dives in for the kill when suddenly, a T-Rex appears and snatches it out of mid-air, allowing our heroes a distraction for them to flee. This is the same T-Rex that appeared earlier and you could hear coming from a mile away. But, it apparently was a ninja and managed to sneak in to save the day.
War of the Worlds: Martians have invaded and humanity is powerless to stop them. They're able to kill or destroy anything at their whim. Just as things are looking like we're totally done for, all the martians drop dead. The common cold has killed them all. It looks like an advanced race capable of interplanetary travel is unfamiliar with germ theory or that you should have your spacesuits be environmentally sealed.
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:A Mustang shooting up a Tiger Tank to get the heroes out of a tight scrape is wholly implausible.
I guess I feel that a little suspension of disbelief. If you replace "mustang" with "airplane" and Tiger with "tank", that's actually not that contrived. Implausibility is different, as hardly any action sequence is realisitically plausible. I think DEM I think highly contrived, but I don't consider air support showing up to deal with a fairly powerful enemy tank overly contrived.
Your mileage may vary Polonius but your comment as to what I don't understand is wide of the mark..
I think you're focusing more on the realism side of things, as opposed to the story telling and plot creation side of things. DEM is a sign of weak plot. The air support was unrealistice, but it's not a short cut through the plot. The heroes succeeded as far as they did through effort, which slowed down the assault long enough to allow the air support to arrive. I suppose it's a pretty minor example, but it'd certainly not call an event like :Air support arriving" all that unexpected.
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Grakmar wrote:Jurassic Park: Our heroes have been fleeing the evil raptors for a good portion of the film. But, they've ended up trapped and surrounded by the raptors in a large open space with no where else to hide. One of the raptors dives in for the kill when suddenly, a T-Rex appears and snatches it out of mid-air, allowing our heroes a distraction for them to flee. This is the same T-Rex that appeared earlier and you could hear coming from a mile away. But, it apparently was a ninja and managed to sneak in to save the day.
I'll give you this one. OTOH, You could hear the T-rex previously when in a quiet car, not when fighting for your life in a building. It's a little more plausible when you realize that the heroes probably wouldn't have noticed it either. Anyway, that's more a question of a plot hole that DEM (the sillent approach). As a reader of TV tropes, I'd consider it more of a Heel/Face turn than a DEM, but it's still pretty out of nowhere.
War of the Worlds: Martians have invaded and humanity is powerless to stop them. They're able to kill or destroy anything at their whim. Just as things are looking like we're totally done for, all the martians drop dead. The common cold has killed them all. It looks like an advanced race capable of interplanetary travel is unfamiliar with germ theory or that you should have your spacesuits be environmentally sealed.
This is a classic DEM, but it's intentional. The point of the story is to show how helpless humanity would be against the Martians, and how only fate could save us. (In many ways similar to the Foundation series, in which nothing happens due to heroic action.)
That said, keep in mind that germ theory was relatively new when WotW was published. Also, mars has an extremely thin atmosphere, so the Martians may not have thought that virii could be transmitted by air. Yeah, it's weak, but the martians lack of germ theory knowledge is the least of the factual troubles with that story.
Was watching iron man the other day and the way the Arc reactor seems to wholly concentrate on Obidiah Stane is a bit silly. Iron man 2's 'super team-up power' was already set up earlier in the film so was less of a silly ending. Halo 3: Blowing up 'some' of the flood on the Ark somehow wiping out a galactic plague was very stupid.
Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Isn't there one in Princess Bride, the Man in Black mentioning he's immune to the poison after defeating the guy via said poison?
Not sure that that would be applicable,since it was more of an after the fact "reveal" that the man in black had built up a resistance to Iocane powder.
A resistance??...Inconceivable!!
Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Isn't there one in Princess Bride, the Man in Black mentioning he's immune to the poison after defeating the guy via said poison?
He'd already demonstrated himself to be strong, skilled, and in the confrontation with the Sicilian, by poisoning both cups with a poison he _knew_ he was immune to, devious.
An actual DEM would have been if Wesley had no idea the cup was poisoned, but by sheer coincidence happened to be completely immune to poison, an ability never hinted at previously. Another example could be the heroes cornered by Prince Humperdink and his guards, about to be messily killed, when suddenly the REAL Dread Pirate Roberts shows up and saves the day (the heroes' plight being suddenly resolved by a character with no real mention or development at any point prior).
Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Isn't there one in Princess Bride, the Man in Black mentioning he's immune to the poison after defeating the guy via said poison?
That would be bad if it solved the entire plot of the theme. However, it's early on, and he did purpose that game because he knew, whatever the outcome, he would survive.
Underhanded, but not inconceivable. He did take the mantle of the Dread Pirate Roberts, probably in a dangerous crew. I don't see it as DEM, unlike the Jurassic Park one.
[quote=GrakmarWar of the Worlds: Martians have invaded and humanity is powerless to stop them. They're able to kill or destroy anything at their whim. Just as things are looking like we're totally done for, all the martians drop dead. The common cold has killed them all. It looks like an advanced race capable of interplanetary travel is unfamiliar with germ theory or that you should have your spacesuits be environmentally sealed.
They died because more than a few of the people they ate would've had a virus.
Tim the Biovore wrote:[quote=GrakmarWar of the Worlds: Martians have invaded and humanity is powerless to stop them. They're able to kill or destroy anything at their whim. Just as things are looking like we're totally done for, all the martians drop dead. The common cold has killed them all. It looks like an advanced race capable of interplanetary travel is unfamiliar with germ theory or that you should have your spacesuits be environmentally sealed.
They died because more than a few of the people they ate would've had a virus.
They didn't eat the people, they mulched them and spread them around to fertilise the alien plants.
I took a ride in the way back machine for this one.
"Form blazing sword!"
So here is the synopsis of 99% of Voltron episodes. Robeast shows up, beats up voltron for about 10 minutes. When all looks lost they form the blazing sword. Cut scene to blazing sword being formed, cut scene to blazing sword slicing through up to this point invulnerable robeast. FIGHT OVER.
I mean why not just form the blazing sword to begin with!
More of a plot crutch/hole than a DEM.....but come on.
Andrew1975 wrote:I took a ride in the way back machine for this one.
"Form blazing sword!"
So here is the synopsis of 99% of Voltron episodes. Robeast shows up, beats up voltron for about 10 minutes. When all looks lost they form the blazing sword. Cut scene to blazing sword being formed, cut scene to blazing sword slicing through up to this point invulnerable robeast. FIGHT OVER.
I mean why not just form the blazing sword to begin with!
More of a plot crutch/hole than a DEM.....but come on.
Welcome to every sentai-based series ever, animated and live-action.
Every seen any film based off of the works of William Shakespeare? He's the progenitor. Ie; convenient letters appear from nowhere to tie up all those little loose ends and plotholes, whilst creating oh so many more. ^^
Destrado wrote:can't recall correctly, but I thought that Saren dying made little or no impact. The reaper wasn't invincible, and the combined armada took it down. Though it could also have been that a part of the reaper's "conscience" took over Saren.
Then it got confused when he didn't respond to pings.
Polonius wrote:Mal's war wound in Serenity isn't even close to Deus Ex Machina. It's a fine example of Checkov's Gun, to be sure. But it's no more DEM than any other unlikley event that allows a hero to prevail.
According to TV Tropes though it's *never* mentioned prior to the reveal. It's only Chekhov's gun if it was set up earlier to be used later. Seeing as this gun wasn't hung on the wall earlier on it is just pulled out of nowhere for the 'reveal'.
Sheridan falls to his death at Z'ha'dum only to be saved by The First One dwelling there that was never mentioned previously in the series.
Spoiler:
It's never mentioned before, so it's a bit of an ass pull to justify Sheridan coming back to life.
Polonius wrote:The appearance of air support, no matter how unlikely, still wouldn't be deus ex machina. Not unless the air support was always available but was unusued.
Mal's war wound in Serenity isn't even close to Deus Ex Machina. It's a fine example of Checkov's Gun, to be sure. But it's no more DEM than any other unlikley event that allows a hero to prevail.
That, my friend, is Deus Ex Machina.
His war wound is literally never mentioned before hand.
Grakmar wrote:
War of the Worlds: Martians have invaded and humanity is powerless to stop them. They're able to kill or destroy anything at their whim. Just as things are looking like we're totally done for, all the martians drop dead. The common cold has killed them all. It looks like an advanced race capable of interplanetary travel is unfamiliar with germ theory or that you should have your spacesuits be environmentally sealed.
Oh yes of course, the ending of the "Day of the Triffids" 1960s film in which very late in the day it turns out that sea water kills them, and thus the world was saved! Unlike the book then, where the Triffids take over the world.
Howard A Treesong wrote:Oh yes of course, the ending of the "Day of the Triffids" 1960s film in which very late in the day it turns out that sea water kills them, and thus the world was saved! Unlike the book then, where the Triffids take over the world.
Sounds almost like signs
Spoiler:
The aliens get killed by water... yes the same water that makes up the oceans and the same water vapor that is in the air... why didnt they die form exposure to the air? is this some crazy "dry heat" they have? More imporantly why would the aliens even land?
Thats like humans going oh oceans of sulphuric acid yay!!! Lets land somewhere where there isnt much acid vapor and run around naked killing aliens nothing bad could possibly happen!
Polonius wrote:The appearance of air support, no matter how unlikely, still wouldn't be deus ex machina. Not unless the air support was always available but was unusued.
The characters in Saving Private Ryn held off long enough for air support to arrive, which makes their actions meaningful and heroic. If they had buggered out, the air support wouldn't help hold the bridge.
Mal's war wound in Serenity isn't even close to Deus Ex Machina. It's a fine example of Checkov's Gun, to be sure. But it's no more DEM than any other unlikley event that allows a hero to prevail.
The worst example of DEM in a movie is in the Wizard of Oz. Dorothy arrives, and Glinda tells her to go the Wizard, who sends her to kill the Wicked Witch of the West, who welches on his promise. Who shows up to tell Dorothy how to get home? Glinda! Who could have sent her home in the first reel. She even says it: "you had the power all along."
That, my friend, is Deus Ex Machina.
Totally agree with Private Ryan. It's a classic "Hold the bridge" storyline where the protagonists have to hold a bridge just long enough for reinforcements to arrive. I think what a lot of people are really pissed off about was it appears a P51 slags them with 50 cal guns. To all of those who are really upset with the 51 what if the movie ended this way instead.
Tom Hanks shoots the tiger with his 45, and then there is a big boom but the tiger doesn't blow up as a Sherman Tank's round bounces off it's front armor. 4 Sherman tanks go to engage the tiger, 3 of them get blown to hell because they were a real pos tank, and the 4th maneuvers to get a rear shot on the tiger blowing it up. It's more historically accurate, at least 2 minutes longer, and less dramatic of an entry than the P51 coming out of the sky. It's a dramatic entry, not a deus ex machina. Like Han Solo shooting down Darth Vader in episode 4.
Totally agree that MAL's world was Checkov's Gun. The writers began to hint on it at the introduction of River and the reavers, and the connection would have been slowly introduced slowly over multiple seasons. Firefly fans are just pissed off that like many other really good TV series firefly was canceled in it's 1st season.
Polonius wrote:Mal's war wound in Serenity isn't even close to Deus Ex Machina. It's a fine example of Checkov's Gun, to be sure. But it's no more DEM than any other unlikley event that allows a hero to prevail.
According to TV Tropes though it's *never* mentioned prior to the reveal. It's only Chekhov's gun if it was set up earlier to be used later. Seeing as this gun wasn't hung on the wall earlier on it is just pulled out of nowhere for the 'reveal'.
Except that we know that he is a veteran and that he had been wounded. While we aren't notified of every scar it doesn't just happen out of nowhere. Most people tend to not go around randomly listing their of war wounds and it isn't always necessary to write a scene just to tell us about that one specific thing. It isn't Checkov's Gun but it isn't from so far out of left field to qualify for DEM either as it has a reasonable explanation and grows organically out of the story.
halonachos wrote:Well in Saving Private Ryan they didn't call in the air strike at all, in fact I don't believe they had a working radio at that part of the movie.
Air support doesn't just fly around in random areas, its called in so its really improbable in that case.
Yea, but once again it's someone upset about the historical accuracy rather than the DEM aspect. At that point in the story an air strike is no more or less a DEM than 4 Sherman tanks engaging the single Tiger.
Look, the entire end of saving private Ryan, while entertaining, is ludicrous, but i expect these things. I can say, ok, these SS soldiers are acting very silly not following standard grenadier tactics. Maybe it's possible the weren't following standard procedure for x reason, whatever. The scene was exciting and full of action, it didn't pull me out of the movie, bad guys always fight poorly. So my problem isn't with wandering air support, hell they could have been called in by the rescuers that show up a few minutes later. I don't even have a problem with a aircraft taking out a Tiger. The problem is that it's a P-51, it just couldn't happen. They could have shown a P-47, tempest, typhoon or mosquito firing rockets and I probably would have been fine.
What takes me out of movies is when something I know is absolutely impossible. When that tiger blew up, I didn't get it. Did Tom hanks miracle shoot it with his pistol some how? Makes as much sense to me as a P-51 blowing it up, I mean it just couldn't happen. I felt lost and let down. Surely there was a better way to kill the Tiger. Have the explosives go off and have the tiger fall through the bridge, or have Ryban throw a Molotov inside the top hatch and go all Rambo (it appears they don't lock those in this movie), anything, but don't have a Tiger get blown up by machine guns, I just saw the thing get pelted by Germans with a 20mm antiaircraft gun just to get the paratroopers off. If your own guys are willing to shoot 20mm AA rounds at you because they know that it will only scratch a tigers paint how does a P-51 armed with .50 cal machine guns do it! It just took me out of the whole thing right at the point where the movie really wants to engage you.
Andrew1975 wrote:Look, the entire end of saving private Ryan, while entertaining, is ludicrous, but i expect these things. I can say, ok, these SS soldiers are acting very silly not following standard grenadier tactics. Maybe it's possible the weren't following standard procedure for x reason, whatever. The scene was exciting and full of action, it didn't pull me out of the movie, bad guys always fight poorly. So my problem isn't with wandering air support, hell they could have been called in by the rescuers that show up a few minutes later. I don't even have a problem with a aircraft taking out a Tiger. The problem is that it's a P-51, it just couldn't happen. They could have shown a P-47, tempest, typhoon or mosquito firing rockets and I probably would have been fine.
What takes me out of movies is when something I know is absolutely impossible. When that tiger blew up, I didn't get it. Did Tom hanks miracle shoot it with his pistol some how? Makes as much sense to me as a P-51 blowing it up, I mean it just couldn't happen. I felt lost and let down. Surely there was a better way to kill the Tiger. Have the explosives go off and have the tiger fall through the bridge, or have someone throw a Molotov inside the top hatch (it appears they don't lock those in this movie), anything, but don't have a Tiger get blown up by machine guns, I just saw the thing get pelted by Germans with a 20mm antiaircraft gun just to get the paratroopers off. If your own guys are willing to shoot 20mm AA rounds at you because they know that it will only scratch a tigers paint how does a P-51 armed with .50 cal machine guns do it! It just took me out of the whole thing right at the point where the movie really wants to engage you.
It's called "I don't know how WW2 tactics work so I'll have them do something to help out the heroes in my movie!".
Andrew1975 wrote:Look, the entire end of saving private Ryan, while entertaining, is ludicrous, but i expect these things. I can say, ok, these SS soldiers are acting very silly not following standard grenadier tactics. Maybe it's possible the weren't following standard procedure for x reason, whatever. The scene was exciting and full of action, it didn't pull me out of the movie, bad guys always fight poorly. So my problem isn't with wandering air support, hell they could have been called in by the rescuers that show up a few minutes later. I don't even have a problem with a aircraft taking out a Tiger. The problem is that it's a P-51, it just couldn't happen. They could have shown a P-47, tempest, typhoon or mosquito firing rockets and I probably would have been fine.
What takes me out of movies is when something I know is absolutely impossible. When that tiger blew up, I didn't get it. Did Tom hanks miracle shoot it with his pistol some how? Makes as much sense to me as a P-51 blowing it up, I mean it just couldn't happen. I felt lost and let down. Surely there was a better way to kill the Tiger. Have the explosives go off and have the tiger fall through the bridge, or have someone throw a Molotov inside the top hatch (it appears they don't lock those in this movie), anything, but don't have a Tiger get blown up by machine guns, I just saw the thing get pelted by Germans with a 20mm antiaircraft gun just to get the paratroopers off. If your own guys are willing to shoot 20mm AA rounds at you because they know that it will only scratch a tigers paint how does a P-51 armed with .50 cal machine guns do it! It just took me out of the whole thing right at the point where the movie really wants to engage you.
It's called "I don't know how WW2 tactics work so I'll have them do something to help out the heroes in my movie!".
That's the thing. They had so many historians and tacticians involved with the writing process. Dale Dye surely knows a P-51 is not taking out a Tiger. Spielberg ignored it because it was more dramatic and liked it that way. He chose a P-51 because it is iconic, many people who know nothing about planes recognize P-51s. He's been in love with them since empire of the sun. I'm sure many people said "that's impossible", Spielberg probably replied "that's movies, no one will know or care!" For most people he is probably right, but I was completely confused because I was looking around for what killed that tiger. That was the thing, I know how indestructible tigers were, I wanted to see what clever way he was gonna rescue them. Most people were probably thinking "oh no German tanks" and I was thinking "2 Tigers????? oh they are F-ed!"
Andrew1975 wrote:Look, the entire end of saving private Ryan, while entertaining, is ludicrous, but i expect these things. I can say, ok, these SS soldiers are acting very silly not following standard grenadier tactics. Maybe it's possible the weren't following standard procedure for x reason, whatever. The scene was exciting and full of action, it didn't pull me out of the movie, bad guys always fight poorly. So my problem isn't with wandering air support, hell they could have been called in by the rescuers that show up a few minutes later. I don't even have a problem with a aircraft taking out a Tiger. The problem is that it's a P-51, it just couldn't happen. They could have shown a P-47, tempest, typhoon or mosquito firing rockets and I probably would have been fine.
What takes me out of movies is when something I know is absolutely impossible. When that tiger blew up, I didn't get it. Did Tom hanks miracle shoot it with his pistol some how? Makes as much sense to me as a P-51 blowing it up, I mean it just couldn't happen. I felt lost and let down. Surely there was a better way to kill the Tiger. Have the explosives go off and have the tiger fall through the bridge, or have someone throw a Molotov inside the top hatch (it appears they don't lock those in this movie), anything, but don't have a Tiger get blown up by machine guns, I just saw the thing get pelted by Germans with a 20mm antiaircraft gun just to get the paratroopers off. If your own guys are willing to shoot 20mm AA rounds at you because they know that it will only scratch a tigers paint how does a P-51 armed with .50 cal machine guns do it! It just took me out of the whole thing right at the point where the movie really wants to engage you.
It's called "I don't know how WW2 tactics work so I'll have them do something to help out the heroes in my movie!".
That's the thing. They had so many historians and tacticians involved with the writing process. Dale Dye surely knows a P-51 is not taking out a Tiger. Spielberg ignored it because it was more dramatic and liked it that way. He chose a P-51 because it is iconic, many people who know nothing about planes recognize P-51s. He's been in love with them since empire of the sun. I'm sure many people said "that's impossible", Spielberg probably replied "that's movies, no one will know or care!" For most people he is probably right, but I was completely confused because I was looking around for what killed that tiger. That was the thing, I know how indestructible tigers were, I wanted to see what clever way he was gonna rescue them. Most people were probably thinking "oh no German tanks" and I was thinking "2 Tigers????? oh they are F-ed!"
And if they had 4 Sherman tanks engage the 1 tiger resulting in 3 Sherman tanks blowing up before the last one could get a rear shot on the Tiger it would have been a horrible film when it comes to box office revenue. Joe 6 pack would think it's lame, and not knowing anything of WW2 tanks Joe 6 pack would think the tiger tank was being unrealistically hyped because ignorant Joe's 6 pack's common sense tells him America has always made the best tank. Both Spielberg and Lucas completely sold out a long time ago, it was just a lot less noticeable 15 years ago than it is now.
halonachos wrote:Well in Saving Private Ryan they didn't call in the air strike at all, in fact I don't believe they had a working radio at that part of the movie.
Air support doesn't just fly around in random areas, its called in so its really improbable in that case.
Yea, but once again it's someone upset about the historical accuracy rather than the DEM aspect. At that point in the story an air strike is no more or less a DEM than 4 Sherman tanks engaging the single Tiger.
websters wrote:Definition of DEUS EX MACHINA
1: a god introduced by means of a crane in ancient Greek and Roman drama to decide the final outcome
2: a person or thing (as in fiction or drama) that appears or is introduced suddenly and unexpectedly and provides a contrived solution to an apparently insoluble difficulty
A: They were getting their butts kicked by germans with armored support.
B: They were pushed back to the bridge.
C: Tom Hanks realizes that they are losing so he decides to try to blow up the bridge with previously set charges.
D: Tom Hanks is shot while trying to blow the bridge.
E: They failed to blow the bridge and with the germans advancing the bridge will be taken and Private Ryan will be killed. Overall he failed.
F: P-51 comes to save the day and the germans run away.
I would like to point out that the P-51s do have d-day markings on their undersides at least.
The one thing is that this bridge was just some random bridge in the European countryside. If the bridge was incredibly important there would've been more than just one squad to defend it. In this case there was only one squad defending it.
Planes are never just in the air waiting for something to happen, they are always given orders to destroy certain targets. Train tracks were the biggest target shortly after P-51s were used in protecting bombers.
The fact that these planes appeared would have to mean that someone there had called in the air support, but the fact is they didn't have a radio and couldn't call in any. Not to mention that this was shortly after D-Day so the nearest air base would've been in England somewhere IIRC.
If you don't believe us, maybe you'll believe the BBC.
P-51 in Saving Private Ryan isn't Deus Ex Machina. The tiger tank isn't even the major obstacle in the plot. Finding Ryan is, and Tom Hanks (and company) did that on their own. The P-51 was just a unrealistic ending used for dramatic effect.
Being unrealistic != Deus Ex Machina
That's just movie makers being movie makers.
That's the thing. They had so many historians and tacticians involved with the writing process.
So do most movies set in a historical setting. Even 300 had historical advisors. If you want historical accuracy, big budget movies are something you should never watch. Look on the bright side. At least there wasn't a scene where Tom Hanks all alone fought off the entire german army with his infinite ammo machine gun while standing up on a rock screaming "Wolverines!"
Right, so it's unlikely. But i don't feel like it's contrived. The idea that "something" could arrive and help out with the one enemy asset they couldn't deal with organically makes sense.
Lord of Hats raises a good point: if allied air support is unrealistic, than so is a tiger tank assaulting a relatively minor village/bridge. A bad DEM cheapens the actions of the heroes by showing that they weren't necessary, or even helpful. In Ryan, the heroes still found Ryan and accomplished their goal. The tank was just a "well, we have the money, let's have a bigger fight" decision.
It would make sense if the bridge was strategically important.
The planes would've needed to fly around an hour's time to get to the bridge. If they had called for support when they first saw the tanks, it wouldn't of had arrived and Ryan would be dead. Also chances are that he would've been denied support in the first place because it was a PR mission.
As far as finding Ryan being the obstacle, it was only part of the obstacle. It was their mission to find Ryan and to get him home alive. They found him, but Ryan wasn't going to leave until his job was done so the new challenge became defending the bridge so they could take Ryan home. The options they had were to defend the bridge or to blow the bridge.
They were pushed back to the bridge so they had to blow it. Unfortunately Tom Hanks was shot on the bridge before he could detonate the charges so he had failed to blow the bridge.
If the germans crossed they would've reached all of the GI's, including Ryan, and killed them all which means he would've failed to bring Ryan home.
A P-51 flew in and blew up the tank which caused the germans to retreat and pulled victory from the hands of defeat(and the death of Ryan).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
George Spiggott wrote:My understanding is that the P-51 is a stand in for a real tank killer aircraft that simply wasn't available as a prop.
Nobody complains that the first scene is unrealistic when the first wave of infantry take the beach.
That was just the first wave? Dang, maybe they shortened the arrival times of the waves so they all arrived at once?
I dont' think anybody is saying that the scene is horribly realistic. the point is, none of it is realistic. If something is important enough for a freaking Tiger Tank, than maybe having a plane check in isn't totally out of line.
The problem is, calling it a DEM means that you're calling the resolution of the film a cheat. And I think that's stretching it. They found Ryan. They held off the infantry. They did everything they could against the tiger. There is a difference between having a newcomer solve the core problem and having a ridiculously overpowered new threat by dealt with by a ridiculous newcomer.
It's a question of unnecessarily raising the stakes. Eliminating that whole bit from the movie might make it stronger, but I still don't see having the plane come in as a cheat.
Polonius wrote:
Lord of Hats raises a good point: if allied air support is unrealistic, than so is a tiger tank assaulting a relatively minor village/bridge. A bad DEM cheapens the actions of the heroes by showing that they weren't necessary, or even helpful. In Ryan, the heroes still found Ryan and accomplished their goal. The tank was just a "well, we have the money, let's have a bigger fight" decision.
Actually, there were a lot of mechanized units near Normandy seeing as though they were preparing for the invasion at another location. Also a lot of tanks were held in reserve(that was actually due to a conspiracy against Hitler though, the commander wanted to use those units to fight the SS whou would help Hitler) so the presence of tanks isn't that surprising that far into Europe.
Now the aircraft presence is weird because there were no vital targets next to the town(they favored railroads and supply convoys) and had no reason to be there.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Polonius wrote:
Lord of Hats raises a good point: if allied air support is unrealistic, than so is a tiger tank assaulting a relatively minor village/bridge. A bad DEM cheapens the actions of the heroes by showing that they weren't necessary, or even helpful. In Ryan, the heroes still found Ryan and accomplished their goal. The tank was just a "well, we have the money, let's have a bigger fight" decision.
Actually, there were a lot of mechanized units near Normandy seeing as though they were preparing for the invasion at another location. Also a lot of tanks were held in reserve(that was actually due to a conspiracy against Hitler though, the commander wanted to use those units to fight the SS whou would help Hitler) so the presence of tanks isn't that surprising that far into Europe.
Now the aircraft presence is weird because there were no vital targets next to the town(they favored railroads and supply convoys) and had no reason to be there. The tanks could've been on their way to the beach.
Automatically Appended Next Post: They also didn't hold off the germans, they failed miserably and Ryan was going to die along with all of the others.
Ok, so having an airplane (that can fly several hundred miles an hour) appear over a village during the largest air assault in history is implausible. Having an elite tank appear at a minor village, because they were in theater, is not?
I get your overall point, man, I just think you're glossing over the fact that I'm sure there were tanks in the area. why were they sent with limited support into that village?
I also haven't seen the movie in a decade, but according to wikipedia there were more aircraft and advancing armored units after the Tiger blew up. So instead of Dues Ex Machina, it's more of The Cavalry Arrives.
You are confusing historical inaccuracy (or stupidity take your pick it) with a Deus Ex Machina. Within the realm of the film, it is not an absurd and sudden resolution for a plane to destroy a tank, saving the hero(s) in the nick of time (That sort of thing is actually a little cliche for a war film). Deus Ex Machina is a plot device, not a matter of historical realism. They are two separate issues that shouldn't be combined into the same thing.
EDIT: I missed it earlier but I wouldn't call the water thing in Signs a Deus Ex Machina, as it is mentioned earlier in the movie that the aliens don't like water. The little girl leaving massive amounts of water around and the boy having asthma however are text book Chekhov's gun. They're actually central to the movies theme (that everything that happens has a reason for happening) which, while a crappy movie when you really think about it, the film does get its themes across quite well (if through absurdity).
Okay I did some research as to why the germans wanted the bridge.
The bridge was located in a town called Ramelle which is located on a river(obviously). This bridge would allow the germans to reach the port of Cherbourg which was something the allies wanted.
The germans attacked with two tigers, two anti-tanks, and an assortment of SS infantry. This was based off of an actual attack on the bridge.
The film was also criticized for not portraying a typical german attack as the germans would've destroyed the church tower well before entering the town.
As far as the presence of aircraft, P-51s had a cruising speed of about 282 mph. They would need to be rearmed, refueled, and of course told to go to the town to begin with seeing as though they most likely would've been busier near the coast of France defending the troops landing and convoys bringing supplies. That's why I would say the presence of the P-51s is unrealistic.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Lord of hats;
Just about any site I go to says that its a Deus Ex Machina because it follows the webster's dictionary definition to a tee.
I think some of you are falling into the trap that you know too much about the subject.
Once your expertise in a subject grows large enough, you can recognize all those problems in entertainment since writers aren't as knowledgeable as you are (or at least aren't creative enough to use 100% accurate problems in their storytelling). Being able to identify the type of tank, type of aircraft, weaponry on said aircraft, etc, means that you simply know too much and recognize the flaws in the storytelling. For the rest of us, we simply see "Plane flew in and blew up a tank" which seems totally reasonable.
I'd suggest you either start drinking heavily so you kill enough brain cells to be able to sit back and enjoy the pretty colors on the screen, or accept the fact that you're going to be able to find major flaws in every WW2 film you watch.
Howard A Treesong wrote:How did the bomb land so far *ahead* of the plane? The Tiger explodes and it takes a good second or so for the plane to appear from the smoke above the destroyed tank. Do bombs now speed up to land ahead of aircraft when dropped? Surely the plane should at least be over the tank when it explodes or even have passed over Tom Hanks. :p
Addition of velocities is all i can think off... and i don't have an in depth knowledge of bombs of WW2
Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Isn't there one in Princess Bride, the Man in Black mentioning he's immune to the poison after defeating the guy via said poison?
Not sure that that would be applicable,since it was more of an after the fact "reveal" that the man in black had built up a resistance to Iocane powder.
A resistance??...Inconceivable!!
I was thinking that the end of The Wizard of Oz fits the criteria,since A) Dorothy had the Ruby slippers ,and thus the means to go home,through out her entire journey through OZ ,and B) It was all a "dream".
FITZZ wrote: I was thinking that the end of The Wizard of Oz fits the criteria,since A) Dorothy had the Ruby slippers ,and thus the means to go home,through out her entire journey through OZ ,and B) It was all a "dream".
Wizard of Oz is a great example! Dorothy spends the entire film trying to find a way to get home. She's sent on task after task only to find out that she's been working with a bunch of frauds. When all seems hopeless for her, a magic lady appears and says "You could have gone home at any time, you just wouldn't have believed me before now."
Part of the problem with the Wizard of Oz is that they cut down on the number of witches. In the original story, the good witch from the start of the movie and the end were separate characters, so there wasn't a moment of 'c'mon, couldn't you have told me about the slippers the FIRST time we met?'
rubiksnoob wrote:Anyone who reads this thread and is not a WWII fanatic will have Saving Private Ryan ruined for them forever.
Nah, I studied WWII for my European history credits in college and it still doesn't bother me becuase I know the difference between a piece of entertainment and an attempt at making a narrative documentary. Saving Private Ryan is trying to evoke a feeling as well as be an homage to the WWII films of the 40's (Sands of Iwo Jima). It isn't trying to be a treatise on German tank tactics. The weakest par is the bookends of the film, but that could just be me. You could remove everything but Omaha and it would still be worth seeing on the big screen.
Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Isn't there one in Princess Bride, the Man in Black mentioning he's immune to the poison after defeating the guy via said poison?
Not sure that that would be applicable,since it was more of an after the fact "reveal" that the man in black had built up a resistance to Iocane powder.
A resistance??...Inconceivable!!
This word, I do not think it means what you think it means.
Plot= paratroopers hold a bridge against ss and tanks until reinforcements come to rescue paratroopers. Historical inaccuracies no not=dem.
Das boot ended with an even more sudden and unexpected air raid, and that really wasn't a dem. Das Boot was also a better movie, but that's another story.
Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Isn't there one in Princess Bride, the Man in Black mentioning he's immune to the poison after defeating the guy via said poison?
Not sure that that would be applicable,since it was more of an after the fact "reveal" that the man in black had built up a resistance to Iocane powder. A resistance??...Inconceivable!!
This word, I do not think it means what you think it means.
Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Isn't there one in Princess Bride, the Man in Black mentioning he's immune to the poison after defeating the guy via said poison?
Not sure that that would be applicable,since it was more of an after the fact "reveal" that the man in black had built up a resistance to Iocane powder. A resistance??...Inconceivable!!
This word, I do not think it means what you think it means.
It's a line from the movie. You'd understand if you watch Princess Bride.
Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Isn't there one in Princess Bride, the Man in Black mentioning he's immune to the poison after defeating the guy via said poison?
Not sure that that would be applicable,since it was more of an after the fact "reveal" that the man in black had built up a resistance to Iocane powder. A resistance??...Inconceivable!!
This word, I do not think it means what you think it means.
It's a line from the movie. You'd understand if you watch Princess Bride.
Not sure if this one has been mentioned yet,but how about the ending of the film adaptation of Stephen Kings Novella "The Mist."?
The main character endures numerous confrontations with various beasties and the "Cult of Carmody",finally manages to escape the super market with his small group,drives endlessly through the creature filled mist,runs out of gas,kills everyone else in the car to spare them from being eaten by monsters,has no bullet left for himself,in crushing grief he gets out of his car so he can be eaten by monsters....and here comes the U.S. Army to save the day.
LordofHats wrote:As a side note, stop that video at 3:12. Is it just me or is that guy holding an M1A1 with the distinct ding of an M1?
I have no clue, but remember that most movie sound isn't production sound it's sound
effects edited in. So if there's a problem, it's the sound guys fault.
Not really, all the eagles did was fight off the remaining fell beasts after the witch king was already dead.
A proper "Deus Ex Machina" needs to single handedly make the entire central struggle of a storyline irrelevant.
The Dead Men of Dunharrow were the Deus Ex Machina of Return of the King, and the ents were the Deus Ex Machina of The Two Towers.
You forget the Hobbit. You forget their saving the halflings from the volcano.
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BrookM wrote:Or the P51 had rockets.
Indeed... kind of quibbeling here no? It could have been the mighty Thunderbolt but they didn't have one laying around for the film.
It could have been a sherman hitting it from the rear. It could have been troops shooting it in the ass with bazookas. It could have been Captain America. We see boom then airplane then US troops and tanks appear. Who cares?
halonachos wrote:Well in Saving Private Ryan they didn't call in the air strike at all, in fact I don't believe they had a working radio at that part of the movie.
Air support doesn't just fly around in random areas, its called in so its really improbable in that case.
They don't have to. Its the spotters with the incoming US troops you see just a few seconds later.
FITZZ wrote: Not sure if this one has been mentioned yet,but how about the ending of the film adaptation of Stephen Kings Novella "The Mist."?
The main character endures numerous confrontations with various beasties and the "Cult of Carmody",finally manages to escape the super market with his small group,drives endlessly through the creature filled mist,runs out of gas,kills everyone else in the car to spare them from being eaten by monsters,has no bullet left for himself,in crushing grief he gets out of his car so he can be eaten by monsters....and here comes the U.S. Army to save the day.
Personally i wouldent consider that a "Deus Ex Machina" because the army arrives too late and he's already killed/lost everyone else, he gets out of the car to die but in a cruel twist of fate the army arrives just then. If he had waited in the car longer then everyone in the car could of lived.
FITZZ wrote: Not sure if this one has been mentioned yet,but how about the ending of the film adaptation of Stephen Kings Novella "The Mist."?
The main character endures numerous confrontations with various beasties and the "Cult of Carmody",finally manages to escape the super market with his small group,drives endlessly through the creature filled mist,runs out of gas,kills everyone else in the car to spare them from being eaten by monsters,has no bullet left for himself,in crushing grief he gets out of his car so he can be eaten by monsters....and here comes the U.S. Army to save the day.
Personally i wouldent consider that a "Deus Ex Machina" because the army arrives too late and he's already killed/lost everyone else, he gets out of the car to die but in a cruel twist of fate the army arrives just then. If he had waited in the car longer then everyone in the car could of lived.
I was looking at it from the perspective of his personal survival,and that basically everything he'd done had been essentially pointless,but I get what your saying.
CT GAMER wrote:Isn't R2-D2 a walking "Deus Ex Machina"?
No matter what is going on around him, he has a little arm that comes out with exactly what is needed...
I know he is a utility droid (astromech), but come on...
Not really. Now, he gets far more useful in the prequels, but in general once you accept the R2 often has the tools/skills to for most situations, it's not horribly surprising when we comes up big. It's no different from Bond having a specific spy skill: you assume a 00 agent could speak passable russian or could pick a lock.
halonachos wrote:Well in Saving Private Ryan they didn't call in the air strike at all, in fact I don't believe they had a working radio at that part of the movie.
Air support doesn't just fly around in random areas, its called in so its really improbable in that case.
They don't have to. Its the spotters with the incoming US troops you see just a few seconds later.
Its still the fact that Tom Hanks had no support throughout the entire movie and was losing the final battle until support actually appears at the end. Support that wasn't mentioned nor present before.
The support is a suddenly introduced character that solved the issue of losing the battle. I would call that a Deus Ex Machina.
Also R2-D2 isn't a deus ex machina, he's just full of win and awesome.
They were holding a bridge until reinforcements arrived. Thats kind of the point of the final battle. Reinforcements arrived. As pretty much everyone in the original team is killed but the BAR guy, I wouldn't proffer that much of a change.
Lies Halon' I googled Herman Sheisseberger and It come up Herman Cheeseburger, therefore unless you acknowlage that you're 1/16th or 1/8th cheeseburger and your skin is edible, he's not your relative
FM Ninja 048 wrote:Lies Halon' I googled Herman Sheisseberger and It come up Herman Cheeseburger, therefore unless you acknowlage that you're 1/16th or 1/8th cheeseburger and your skin is edible, he's not your relative
1/16th cheeseburger, and everybody's skin is edible.
