i may be playing an apoc battle soon where I pit my scratch buiilt hireophant against An'ggrath. I have has several people tell me that the hierophant is the most broken unit in apocalypse and that their hideously hard to kill. One group told nme they won't even allow bio titans in their apoc games any more. I figured that An'ggrath would be an excellent match as the stats between these two monsters are about evenly matched. However I was wondering if other players have had the same issues with unkillable hierophants and if I should feel guilty about running it. This will be my first time actually using it.

That's because it is. Even if you don't use the new 3++ warp field save, it's T9, W10 with a 2+, 5++ save and regeneration. Unless there's a lot of D strength weapons flying around the table, your opponent will find himself hard pressed to wound the thing, let alone kill it.

Then consider it throws out 16 S10, AP3 shots at 48" every turn, which can be fired at 2 separate targets, and it's very nasty in assault as well, and it's a ridiculously powerful unit.

I wouldn't call it as powerful as a Warlord titan, but for the actual released Apocalypse models, it's by far the most powerful.

However, if they won't let you use your Hierophant, refuse to let them use their apocalypse units. It works both ways, and apocalypse isn't meant to be balanced anyway.

A Hierophant is suppose to be comparable to a Warhound or even a reaver in strength, with the lesser known Hydraphant being more comparable to the Warlord. Have you faced warhounds before? In my one and only Apoc battle, even a single warhound was incredibly hard for my 1500 point army to take down (I didnt kill it in the end either, it wiped my army before I could deal the finishing blow), mainly because of the ridiculous D weapons it had as well as the fact that it could fire them at different targets over very long distances. Without dedicated counter-super heavies or super-heavy killer datasheets, It's bound to be lopsided.

The Hierophant is different to super heavies in that a single lucky shot can't kill it. You need to get past that T9 and 2+, 5++ save 10 times in one turn to reliably kill it. If you don't, there's a good chance it'll not only regenerate wounds, but kill whatever did damage to it.

While things like Baneblades or Titans can occasionally put a wound on it while out of its range, there's a couple of things to consider. Most heavy weapons that can wound it will be within its biocannons range. And if you expect to be able to hit it multiple times while outside its range with big guns, you need to realize it can move upwards of 24" in a turn. 30" if it assaults. That range gap is going to close fast.

Once that range gap has closed, whatever pours fire into it will very likely die in the Hierophants shooting phase. Missile Launcher/Lascannon devastator squad? Land Raider? Predator Annihilator? They're going to cop 8 S10, AP3 shots in the Tyranid players next turn.

The only thing I could see reliably kill it is a thunderhammer/stormshield terminator squad. But then they would be hard pressed to do it. They'd be hitting on 4+ and wounding on 5+, and taking not only the Hierophants hits first, but also wounds from its spore cloud after combat. And then be forced to disengage next turn and not be safely locked in melee.

So comparable difference between the Dreadnought and Wraithlord?

EDIT: I checked out the point cost of the thing. It is rather comparable to a Reaver than anything else. Likewise a Reaver with Vortex Missiles could conceivably kill it.

Vortex missiles cause D3 wounds to a gargantuan creature. It'll probably just end up regenerating some of those anyway.

From people I've heard talk about Hierophants, they can take a Reaver pretty comfortably as well.

It will have to depend on the Reaver's loadout I guess. Giving it 2 anti-titan weapons and a Vortex Missile rack will give it a good chance at putting the thing down in 3-4 turns. However the Hierophant will have likely reached combat by then....

I had a thought, and if it's crazy tell me, but a Nurgle daemon army I feel could really take this out no problem. Center it around the Tally and once you hit 20 dead, not hard to do against 'Nids, send it a group of Nurglings at it. Yes, they'll hit after it attacks them, but it can only take down them one wound at a time and they'll be striking back with 5's to hit and 2's to wound no armour save if you've gotten the tally up. 4 attacks on the charge with something like 9 Nurglings bases charging is still going to be alot of wounds handed out.

That's the thing. If you can't kill it in one turn, it's going to reach combat, either normally or by sacrificing shooting to move further, and likely regenerate some of those wounds.

Funnily enough, with everyone saying how awful Forgeworld is with rules, the Hierophant wasn't nearly as tough in its Imperial Armour book. Sure, taking off its mass points could be a pain, since it basically meant you had to bypass the mass point 'damage table' 3 times before wounding it proper, but it only had 5 wounds and T8, and its biocannons were assault 1 large blast instead of assault 8 no blast.

edit - Why would Nurglings be wounding it on a 2+? If it's a poisoned effect, they'll be wounding on 6+. It's practically immune to poison. And after the assault phase, the nurglings disengage and it walks away further than they can move to assault again.

All of the superheavies seem to have gotten a buff in Apoc. The Baneblade use to be 650 and, if I recall correctly, didnt have the option to go for 14 14 14 armor.

Like, I'm not trying to say the thing is unkillable - it's not. However, it is the nastiest unit in the Apocalypse rulebook with an official model by a long shot, requiring more tailoring of your army to beat than any other unit. If you don't, you're going to have the toughest fight ever trying to bring it down in the middle of a Tyranid swarm.

It's also one of the more expensive models point-wise.

Compared to the other titans though, it's oddly cheap money-wise.

Well, it's the same price as a Warhound. I think you're thinking of a Hierodule.

I've heard people have had success assaulting it with a ton of Dreadnoughts...

Vortex weaponry can work as well.

dunno about you, but on my monitor the Hierophant is 220 something Pounds, while the Hierodule is 92 and the Warhound is 240 for only the body. Two guns together cost 70, so that means the Hierophant is a good deal cheaper than a Warhound in terms of money, while being a whole lot more expensive (and apparently durable) than the Warhound on the tabletop.

30-40 Lascannons with BID can tear it apart in a turn or two. Don't know about it being compared to other Super-heavies though.

I'm actually tempted to buy one of the Hierophants now, even if it's just a display piece. 350 doesnt seem THAT unreasonable, especially for a luxury item.

Emperors Faithful wrote:30-40 Lascannons with BID can tear it apart in a turn or two. Don't know about it being compared to other Super-heavies though.

Spending all those points on lascannons on everything is going to be great for killing the horde of infantry supporting the Hierophant...

It's kind of why the Hierophant is powerful. It's really, really hard to kill, and requires tailoring your army to killing it. However, once tailored to kill the Hierophant, the army is far, far less effective at killing normal Tyranids. Guard have the advantage that they will have battlecannons on their vehicles though.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:dunno about you, but on my monitor the Hierophant is 220 something Pounds, while the Hierodule is 92 and the Warhound is 240 for only the body. Two guns together cost 70, so that means the Hierophant is a good deal cheaper than a Warhound in terms of money, while being a whole lot more expensive (and apparently durable) than the Warhound on the tabletop.

Strange, I could have sworn the Warhound body was the same price. I completely forgot about the arms being separate though.

I kind of wish they did separate weapon arms for the Hierophant and Hierodule. A standard 'biocannon' is kind of dull.

-Loki- wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:30-40 Lascannons with BID can tear it apart in a turn or two. Don't know about it being compared to other Super-heavies though.

Spending all those points on lascannons on everything is going to be great for killing the horde of infantry supporting the Hierophant...

1515 pts for 13 Lascannon teams and 3 supporting CC (you can do this in Apoc ). What is the pts cost of a Heirophant again?

Seems like a Tyranid Apoc army is not only feasable, but also incredibly viable. And the Hierophant is 1250 or so.

It makes sense for Tyranids to do well in larger scale engagements. Also, 13 lascannon teams and 3 CC versus 250pts of Nids could still work...

You could always back it up with a Mawloc. That would about halve the amount of lascannons firing at it when it's in range.

This also assumes you play nice and use RAI, giving it the old warpfield save. Realistically, you should be giving it the new, 3++ warp field, since the rules for the power have been updated in the new codex. You'd need to be a real douchebag to pull that, though.

The Hierophant would be even mroe broken then, since it also technically has a set of Scything Talons (rerolling 1's) and effectively AOE poison.

That's another point. Scything talons. The Hierophant is WS 6, hitting most things on a 3+. It's always going to strike first due to lashwhips as well. I'd gladly sacrifice one attack for the ability to reroll half its misses. Again, RAI, it gets +1 attack instead.

Emperors Faithful wrote:30-40 Lascannons with BID can tear it apart in a turn or two. Don't know about it being compared to other Super-heavies though.

Any thread where this sentence can be written out unironically is a great thread to me.

I figure you could take one of those big bugs out with enough poisoned weapons. Most things are just going to bounce off it, but poisoned weapons could do the trick. Not everybody's Dark Eldar though.

Poisened doesn't work as well as you'd like against it.

How about a ton of shardnet wyches with agoniser hekatrices? Agonisers aren't poisoned weapons (which actually makes them worse in any other situation, since they're always wounding on 4+ but don't get strength related rerolls or the Mistress of Poisons buff from a Court with Lhamaeans), the shardnets effectively castrate it in melee, unless it has special magical rules allowing it to ignore modifiers to its number of attacks, and you can get a whole lot of agoniser hekatrices for 1250... Eight five wych squads in raiders, meaning it would get -8 attacks to a minimum of one, and take roughly 7 agoniser wounds, not to mention a potential eight dark lances (even though they're wounding on a 6...) and 40 splinter weapons (even though they'll wound on a six, and then suffer a 2+ armor save...) firing on it before the charge.

How many wounds does it regenerate per turn? Even if it can just walk away from the wyches, it may still be horrendously wounded and easy to mop up after that...

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:How about a ton of shardnet wyches with agoniser hekatrices? Agonisers aren't poisoned weapons (which actually makes them worse in any other situation, since they're always wounding on 4+ but don't get strength related rerolls or the Mistress of Poisons buff from a Court with Lhamaeans), the shardnets effectively castrate it in melee, unless it has special magical rules allowing it to ignore modifiers to its number of attacks, and you can get a whole lot of agoniser hekatrices for 1250... Eight five wych squads in raiders, meaning it would get -8 attacks to a minimum of one, and take roughly 7 agoniser wounds, not to mention a potential eight dark lances (even though they're wounding on a 6...) and 40 splinter weapons (even though they'll wound on a six, and then suffer a 2+ armor save...) firing on it before the charge.

How many wounds does it regenerate per turn? Even if it can just walk away from the wyches, it may still be horrendously wounded and easy to mop up after that...

Problem - they'll all be striking at initiative 1. While you may castrate it's normal attacks, it gets a Gargantuan Creature stomp attack, which hit every model in combat with it once. So there's a good chance most of the wyches will die before even hitting it. Even then, they have to get past its 2+ armour save. At the end of combat, they all take an additional wound on a 4+ from its spore cloud and are forced to disengage, letting it fire or retreat as needed.

There's also the issue of actually getting into combat with it. Anything threatening coming within 48" will die under a hail of biocannon shots, so forget about even using a webway portal. You won't get one close enough.

Poisoned weapons are just a plain bad idea, wounding on 6's.

I have played several apoc games with the heirophant. In the end we house-ruled it that it only has a 3++ since the old warp field is technically what is giving it the 2+ save.

And nids still have a huge issue in apoc games. D-weapons ID MC's which means late game you are relying on your swarms to not take 25% casualties and run off the table. Not great.

We also found a thunderhawk is overpowered too. It did very nasty things to my swarm with it's bombing runs.

I guess spamming Shokk Attack Batteries could concievably spell the doom for a Hierophant, or indeed any other superheavy. You just need that magical ...

-Loki- wrote:it gets a Gargantuan Creature stomp attack, which hit every model in combat with it once.

At an initiative better than one? I don't know Apoc rules, so I was just throwing out the idea of "spam wound on 4+ power weapons against it". The lash whip throws a real wrench in the works there... I don't suppose DE have any real options against it, then, aside from remembering it's Apoc and concocting a legion of enslaved Guard or somesuch to be able to spam weapons that can actually hurt it.

Actually, that sounds like an interesting theme for a Guard army...

JOTWW?
Would be quite funny (obviously not for you) if your Giant Nid MC died immediately to JOTWW.... If it where my job to kill it, i would take 4 Rune Priests in a Drop pod....

Lukus83 wrote:I have played several apoc games with the heirophant. In the end we house-ruled it that it only has a 3++ since the old warp field is technically what is giving it the 2+ save.

Actually the Hierophant does have a 2+ armor save, it's on his profile. The Warp field might have just been there to give him a 5+ invulnerable. It makes sense that his normal save would be a 2+, given his gargantuan size (the Tyrannofex is definately smaller, and has a 2+ save).

The Shokk Attack Gun has me thinking, what about an equal points amount of Eldar Support Platforms outfitted with D-Cannons? They'll have to get in range, but should do enough damage and only one squad will ever be charged by the Hierophant, and two squads will be hit at most. Since apoc has no limit on FoC choices, you can just make each of the platforms a separate unit, so only one platform ever goes down to each gun or assault. With the points of the Hierophant, you can get 25 platforms, and you only need 10 wounds.

as to the JOTWW idea, all gargantuan size beasties are IMMUNE to all psyhic powers without a str value, so it'd bounce off.

Also poison isn't that bad, I mean say a squad of marines and a squad of Deldar warriors somehow survived nearby, guess which one of the squads actually have a (no matter how slim) chance of wounding?

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

-Loki- wrote:it gets a Gargantuan Creature stomp attack, which hit every model in combat with it once.

At an initiative better than one? I don't know Apoc rules, so I was just throwing out the idea of "spam wound on 4+ power weapons against it". The lash whip throws a real wrench in the works there... I don't suppose DE have any real options against it, then, aside from remembering it's Apoc and concocting a legion of enslaved Guard or somesuch to be able to spam weapons that can actually hurt it.

Yes, the stomp attack is resolved at the gargantuan creatures normal initiative. The rule says nothing about the attacks being made at a lower initiative - it just replaces its normal attacks with the stomp attack. This means you cannot allocate more than one hit against one model, since it stipulates every model is hit once, resolved individually per model.

It's basically there to allow Gargantuan creatures to fight a horde of enemies without giving them a ridiculous number of attacks that would be simply unbalanced against fewer enemies. But it's also a nice way of circumventing a mass of models with weapons that make you lose attacks.

edit - I think the main issue with what makes it so broken is it does everything. It's got guns that can make a titan fold in a single turn (seen it happen). Because it's a toughness based unit instead of AV and has a really good save and regeneration, it's far, far harder to kill than a super heavy vehicle, even with void shields. And added to that, it's basically as mobile as an Eldar titan, being able to fleet 2D6" if it wants to not fire its weapons. You can't melee tarpit it because it can not only fight hordes of enemies in assault very effectively, they are also forced to disengage at the end of the assault phase, letting it move over twice the distance infantry can if it needs to regenerate a bit.

Just toss a 10 man unit of termies with SS's in and try to kill the rest of the army.

The Heirophant was always badly undercosted. It costs less than 3 Baneblades but would without doubt likely win a shooting war (not even needing to bother with assaults) with five or more baneblades

If people are playing it with having a 2+/3++ instead of a 2+/6++ save, then it's even more absurd.

The Heirophant is really probably worth closer to 3000-4000pts.

That said, GW is terrible at costing Apocalypse units. The Warlord can realistically take on like 8,000pts of Leman Russ/Hammerhead/Predator/Land Raider, etc and still probably stand a better then 50/50 chance of winning, despite being only 2500pts. An Imperator, priced at 4,000pts, could probably take on thrice or even quardruple that number of points worth of conventional armor or even something like Baneblades and still emerge victorious.

To be fair, the Warlord and Emperor titans are lethal joke characters, I doubt they took those two seriously when they made em.

Even the Warhound is, if equipped with turbolasers, far superior to his equivalent in conventional or even super heavy armour.

Vaktathi wrote:The Heirophant was always badly undercosted. It costs less than 3 Baneblades but would without doubt likely win a shooting war (not even needing to bother with assaults) with five or more baneblades

If people are playing it with having a 2+/3++ instead of a 2+/6++ save, then it's even more absurd.

The Heirophant is really probably worth closer to 3000-4000pts.

That said, GW is terrible at costing Apocalypse units. The Warlord can realistically take on like 8,000pts of Leman Russ/Hammerhead/Predator/Land Raider, etc and still probably stand a better then 50/50 chance of winning, despite being only 2500pts. An Imperator, priced at 4,000pts, could probably take on thrice or even quardruple that number of points worth of conventional armor or even something like Baneblades and still emerge victorious.

It's be 6+/3++ under the new warp field (the existing 2+ is from the old version of warp field).

Given that the bio titan is looking at one or two (1.33 average) glancing hits per turn against AV 14, and zero penetrating hits, I have a hard time imagining it dealing with many tanks without resorting to assault, it'd be lucky to take out two over the course of the game.

Technically, it's save is a 2+, as that's whats listed on it's profile.

There was a thread like this like 3 weeks ago dedicated on how to kill a hierophant. Apparently it got down to using a inquisitor crossbow.

Requia wrote:

It's be 6+/3++ under the new warp field (the existing 2+ is from the old version of warp field).

It's listed as having a 2+ armor save, the new Warp Field is simply a 3++ invul.

Given that the bio titan is looking at one or two (1.33 average) glancing hits per turn against AV 14, and zero penetrating hits, I have a hard time imagining it dealing with many tanks without resorting to assault, it'd be lucky to take out two over the course of the game.

Are we looking at the same unit? It's got two Bio Cannons, meaning 16 S10 shots averages no penetrating hits against AV14? Are we on the same page here? There should be an average of 2.66 pens and 1.66 glances per turn against AV14 at BS3.

2.65 and 1.35 to be exact (Pen and Glance respectively). However even one pen is a big deal.

Yeah, there was a big thread on how to kill a Hierophant a few weeks ago.....I'll see if I can find it.

Here it is. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/339860.page 5 pages of talking about how to killa Hierophant. The final suggestion was either massed Eldar Pathfinders (who rend on a 5+) Massed force weapons (if possible) could also harm the Biotitan. That or 2 Turbo Laser armed Warhound Titans.

It links back to this page....

Send in Lukas the Trickster at it let him die and hope the dice gods are on your side and bye bye Hierophant

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:It links back to this page....

Fixed.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/339860.page Here's the proper link.

Vaktathi wrote:

Requia wrote:

It's be 6+/3++ under the new warp field (the existing 2+ is from the old version of warp field).

It's listed as having a 2+ armor save, the new Warp Field is simply a 3++ invul.

Pretty sure it's old warp field was 2+/5++, but I could have been reading something else.

Vaktathi wrote:

Given that the bio titan is looking at one or two (1.33 average) glancing hits per turn against AV 14, and zero penetrating hits, I have a hard time imagining it dealing with many tanks without resorting to assault, it'd be lucky to take out two over the course of the game.

Are we looking at the same unit? It's got two Bio Cannons, meaning 16 S10 shots averages no penetrating hits against AV14? Are we on the same page here? There should be an average of 2.66 pens and 1.66 glances per turn against AV14 at BS3.

I was thinking the same thing. I think Requia thought it had 2 HVCs?

Nids really do seem more suited for Apocalypse-level battles, given that MCs dont measure up as well compared to tanks and Walkers, but Gargantuans seems to pretty much outclass Super heavies.

The Hierophant does, the Hierodules don't really. They're tough little buggers, but a round of concentrated shooting would put it on its face.

That's why I'm astounded the Scythed hierodule in the Ultramarines battle report in the Apocalypse book managed to cause the havoc it did. it killed the Baneblade and a bunch of units. It shouldn't have even gotten that close. But I think they were playing more for story than anything, so Tyranids winning made sense.

Another issue with Tyranids in Apocalypse games is D strength weapons and monstrous creatures. I remember a page back someone mentioned D strength weapons ID monstrous creatures. A Reaver, while not being able to go toe to toe with a Hierophant, would cause more damage to the Tyranid swarm supporting it than the Hierophant could do to whatever army was supporting the Reaver.

Personally, I want to see Apocalypse rules for the Harridan, though I haven't been able to find them anywhere. It should be one tough bird, and with equal firepower to a Hierophant, it should be able to do some serious damage.

I believe the rules for the Harridan would be in Imperial Armor 4.

The Hierodule still packs quite a punch for being almost 1/2 of the Hierophant's cost. In CC it does pretty much the same, especially if you choose the stomp attack (but minus the spore cloud). However it is more squishy than it's larger counterpart and does not possess some of the more "wtf" defenses the Hierophant has. still, T8 is rather hard to crack with anything short of heavy or plasma weapons.

ChrisWWII wrote:I believe the rules for the Harridan would be in Imperial Armor 4.

As I said, I want to see Apocalypse rules for it. I'm probably getting a Harridan this year to accompany my Hierophant, and I'd rather not have 2 sets of gargantuan creature rules. Mainly for simplicity sake, since people I game with will be using Apocalypse versions of their super heavies. Might just have to look around for a fan made datasheet that isn't too over the top.

Vaktathi wrote:

Requia wrote:

It's be 6+/3++ under the new warp field (the existing 2+ is from the old version of warp field).

It's listed as having a 2+ armor save, the new Warp Field is simply a 3++ invul.

Given that the bio titan is looking at one or two (1.33 average) glancing hits per turn against AV 14, and zero penetrating hits, I have a hard time imagining it dealing with many tanks without resorting to assault, it'd be lucky to take out two over the course of the game.

Are we looking at the same unit? It's got two Bio Cannons, meaning 16 S10 shots averages no penetrating hits against AV14? Are we on the same page here? There should be an average of 2.66 pens and 1.66 glances per turn against AV14 at BS3.

I was under the impression it was str 8. I don't have a copy though, so if I could be wrong.

I think you may have gotten the Assault 8 confused with it's strength. For a moment there I did so too.

-Loki- wrote:

ChrisWWII wrote:I believe the rules for the Harridan would be in Imperial Armor 4.

As I said, I want to see Apocalypse rules for it. I'm probably getting a Harridan this year to accompany my Hierophant, and I'd rather not have 2 sets of gargantuan creature rules.

Those ARE the Apocalypse rules for it. Unless GW/FW has published something more recently, the rules presented in IA4 are the rules for using the Harridan. The Hierophant has new rules in the Apoc book, so those replaced the FW ones, but the Harridan still has to use its old rules.

Edit: Spelling...this is why I should not log on to dakka when I get insomnia at 5 am.

Basically use whichever ones are more recent. That's the basic rule for all GW products anyways.

Here's a little math-hammer break for DE trying to take down a hierophant with splinter weapons..

540 shots
360 hits
60 wounds
10 failed saves

That only takes 270 warriors in rapidfire range!!!

I guess poisoned weapons don't work too well.

I wonder how Sliscus' Serpent's Venom special rule would affect things. Since the rule is specific > general, and "specific weapons carried by one specific unit wound on a 3+" is more specific than "all poisoned weapons wound on a 6"...

Of course, it's still not in the least bit feasible to do, as at best you'll have 48 shots at 12", which will cause a wound for every thirteen shots. Even ignoring regeneration, that means they'd have to stay within 12" (without moving, otherwise it's reduced to 44 shots), without suffering any casualties, for about three turns. Yeah... Don't believe that would happen.

If I remember correctly, gargantuan creatures have a rule that weapons with fixed roll to wound (2+,3+ etc.) always wound on 6's only. So Sliscus wouldn't make a difference.
Don't have Apoc book with me at the moment tho.

Actually no, that rule is sniper and poisoned weapons wound it in a 6+ only.

Had no idea that mere talk of a hierophant would warrant 3 pages of responses. So here's another one for you, my opponent plans on running Agg'garth the unbound. Do you think that the daemon could measure up to a hierophant?

i have killed about 5-6 hierophants, in the last 2 years... my army is tank heavy (over 20) but i find the best way to kill them are with things with ap2, i have killed a hirtophant in 1 turn with the following:

- 4 Vanquishers (st8 ap2) with las cannons (1 pask)
- Around 20 las cannon shots
- 3 Offico Assasian Snipers (their +2 wound special bullet)

Er, those +2 wound special bullets shouldn't work. Gargantuan creatures can only be wounded by snipers and poison on a 6. (Unless I'm misremembering the book again).

Don't officio assassinorum operatives also have a special rule to the effect of "no more than one can ever be fielded by the same side for any reason"?

I would think adjustments to poison or snipers should override the wound on 6 thing, due to being more specific than it. Both wound on four by default, it says that they all wound on a 6, and then something else says "this specific instance wounds on a 3+/2+/whatever".

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Don't officio assassinorum operatives also have a special rule to the effect of "no more than one can ever be fielded by the same side for any reason"?

Apocalypse doesn't overrule this?

I would think adjustments to poison or snipers should override the wound on 6 thing, due to being more specific than it. Both wound on four by default, it says that they all wound on a 6, and then something else says "this specific instance wounds on a 3+/2+/whatever".

Depends. If the Heirophant rule says "Weapons that auto-wound on a 2+ or 4+ become 6+" then yes. However, if it says "Poison and Sniper weapons that wound on 2+/4+ become 6+" then no, the Special Shot still works (I think), and witchblades would also work.

The rule specifically states 'All sniper weapons and poisoned weapons wound gargantuan creatures only on a roll of 6'.

You be cheating there, sir. The Exitus Rifle is a sniper type weapon, hellfire rounds to change your to wond roll, but the Gargantuan Creature rule overrides it. The rule states it changes your to wound toll from a 4+ to a 2+, but it is still a sniper weapon which the rule is a blanket resistance to.

-Loki- wrote:The rule specifically states 'All sniper weapons and poisoned weapons wound gargantuan creatures only on a roll of 6'.

You be cheating there, sir. The Exitus Rifle is a sniper type weapon, hellfire rounds to change your to wond roll, but the Gargantuan Creature rule overrides it. The rule states it changes your to wound toll from a 4+ to a 2+, but it is still a sniper weapon which the rule is a blanket resistance to.

Point. But do witchblades count as poisoned?

I'm probably wrong here, but, assuming that he could actually get close enough, could Old Zogwort turn it into a squig?

No, gargantuan creatures are immune to psychic powers that do not have a strength value.

Actually you can kill one without superheavies. In a recent Apoc team battle, we faced a heirophant. We had daemons and CSM. I took a daemon gift of slaanesh which allowed me to control any enemy unit for one of its shooting phases. My partner took a vortex grenade.

I took control of the heirophant and shot up its carnifex squads pretty good. My partner approached with abaddon. Then we assaulted it with abaddon, a bloodthirster and a daemon prince, after shooting it with everything we had and chucking a vortex grenade at it. It went down, and most of our army survived. It's not overpowered, because in apocalypse there are many overpowered answers.

Not sure if anyone's mentioned this, but An'ggrath will eat a Hierophant in assault. He's hitting on 3's, wounding on 3's, and he's got alot of attacks (theoretically infinite) from which the Hierophant will only get a 5+ save. He's also got a nice 4+ invulnerable against the Hierophant's attacks.

I know this because we have a Nid and Chaos player who duked it out in an Apoc game not too long ago. The Nid player confidently assaulted An'ggrath with his Hierophant. The Phant suffered 5 wounds, dealt two, and then died in the Chaos player's turn.

Darth Bob wrote:Not sure if anyone's mentioned this, but An'ggrath will eat a Hierophant in assault. He's hitting on 3's, wounding on 3's, and he's got alot of attacks (theoretically infinite) from which the Hierophant will only get a 5+ save. He's also got a nice 4+ invulnerable against the Hierophant's attacks.

I know this because we have a Nid and Chaos player who duked it out in an Apoc game not too long ago. The Nid player confidently assaulted An'ggrath with his Hierophant. The Phant suffered 5 wounds, dealt two, and then died in the Chaos player's turn.

That's the Tyranid player being stupid. It's nor hard to keep it out of reach of An'ggrath, unless he's got more than the normal flight movement (I haven't read his rules). If he's winged, he can move 12" and run D6". The Heirophant moves 12" and can fleet 2d6". The point about the hierophant being broken for its point cost isn't just its durability, but its mobility and damage output at range.

Again suggesting a Tally list, though bearing in mind the poisoned thing. Get Tally to 20 as per normal, then just shoot it as I'll have to use its 5+ Invul. saves against any wound dealt to it. I think a squad of 20 Plague marines could easily take it out. Or anything that's got Nurgle in its name.

Just out of curiosity why does everyone keep referring to a 5+ invul save. The hierophant has the warp field power, that's a Zoanthrope psychic ability that confers a 3+ invuln. There are no 5+ invuln saves in the tyrnaid codex I own, at least not in 5th edition. Countless forums agree on that fact and the apoc rule clearly state WARP FIELD. Furthermore An'ggrath the Unbound (who is totally friggin awsome) does indeed wound a hierophant on 3=, howevver you neglected to mention that the hierophant wounds him on a 2+ because the bio titan has a st. 10, and Aggy only has toughness 8. Furthermore, the bio titan always goes first, it has lash whip and that means anything that touches, with the exception of banhees I believe, goes at initiative one. That means the titan will unload it's 8 attacks if chargeed, nine if assuling, first no matter what. Aggy only has a 4+ invuln, and again the bio-titan has a 3+ invul. The bio titan regenerates, and has two more wounds, and gets two extra attacks via spore cloud and toxic miasma at the end of the roound. 20 lass cannons would be a formidable threat to it, but they only wound on 5's and the titan still gets it's three plus invuln save. I know hierophants can be killed, and I know that An'ggrath the Unbound is certainly a unit capable of the feat, but I son't believe that anything is going to take out a bio-titan easy. All the people I've talked to hate, and have centered all the fire power against it and still couldn't kill it in a prolonged game. This story comes from an experienced imperial guard player.

There is no consent, at least on Dakka, that you should use the new warp field power.

Further more to stop that nurgle power that allows them ignore armor save all you have to do is kill epidemius, he only has a tg. of 5 and 3 wounds, a hirophant can slaughter him in one round of shooting, it gets 16 shots at str 10 at 48 inches. Also epidemius power only ignores regular armor saves, not invuln saves, so the bio-titan still gets it 3+ invuln no matter what. My hieophant dosen't fear nurgle. Especially since poision and sniper attacks can only wound it on 6's. Now the las cannons I believe pose a mush more serious threat.

We are referring to a 5++ save because that's what it has. It was designed under 4th edition, with the 4th edition Warp Field psychic power, that conferred a 2+ 5++ save.

I believe someone in this thread said GW actually stated this. If you want to give it the 3++ warp field, at least offer to eat a few hundred more points, because it will make the thing almost unkillable by heavy weapons.

Ah, so that's what every body is talking about, I've never played 4th edition rules. Another nid player told me that in 4th ed thropes had a 2+ invuln save, when I checked the facts I can see that this was obviously wrong as well. Most of the folks who play around here all told me that the all use 3+ invuln save which is why the biotitan is so deadly. I've checked various sites to discover some older style plaers prefer the old rules, while others feel that it the new rules apply. I can't seem to find any consensus, and many people seem to run it both ways. An perplexing situation, especially since G.W. doesn't ever seem to answer any questions concerning Apoc rules. (I teird emailing a couple, lost cause.) I do hope that sometime in the near future perhaps they will release new Apoc books to help upgrade clypse to the fifth edition, but knowing GW they'll do it and then promptly release 6th edition anyway..


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Now I'm really curious, Iv'e only played 2nd ed and fith edition rules. Would any other apoc players now of fifth edition change overs that have caused similar difficulties with the rules similar to the issue posed by the hierophant?

The thing is, GW have apparently answered this question. It gets the 2+ 5++ warp field from 4th edition according to them.

Putting the 3++ save on it is a cheap shot. It makes it practically invulnerable. Well, unless the new Vindicare assassin shieldbreaker rules are correct, which permanently strip invulnerable saves. That would really hurt the Hierophants day.

Could you possibly tell me the official web site where they mentioned this. Everybody keeps saying that but there is no official confirmation and no one can actually tell me anything official. I'm not just interested in this question, but as a nid player I have some people tell me that without number is no longer legal, but if that is the case and the codex is valid over apoc and without number is no lobger legal then should I be using the 3++ save out of the current codex. It seems I opened my own can of worms here, and now I have way more questions then answerers. The most important thing is that everybody enjoy themselves, but to be honest a 1250 point model had better be pretty damn tough. With only a 2+ save and 5+ invuln I'm not going to pay 1250 for a model that could get killed in one turn. However i also don't want to field it if it's going to turn opponents away from table, and some folks I talk to tell me that since blood angle dreadnoughts now fly and dark eldar can shoot 4 shatter field missiles in one round annihilating half your hoard army a lot of players are telling me to use the 3++ because it makes the hierophant worth playing. If i could find that official faq it would settle a lot of issues.

I recently used the Heirophant with only a 3++ and it was tough to kill no doubt, but it was left on 5 wounds at the end of the game. I had admittedly kept it out of range of all the lascannons on the table. The damage was done by a few TH/SS termies and a vortex grenade.

If a 3++ is considered a cheap shot in your area just try it with a 4++. Though I consider the gargantuan creatures just help balance the playing field since all our MC's get IDed by any D-weapon just touching them.

Thanks Lukas83, that's about the best advice anyone has given me.

-Loki- wrote:The thing is, GW have apparently answered this question. It gets the 2+ 5++ warp field from 4th edition according to them.

Putting the 3++ save on it is a cheap shot. It makes it practically invulnerable. Well, unless the new Vindicare assassin shieldbreaker rules are correct, which permanently strip invulnerable saves. That would really hurt the Hierophants day.

GW has answered this question for many people who have called in and asked. No, it's not a FAQ or Errata, but hearing it from the source is just as good. And just because its called warp field, doesn't mean its the same warp field from another book. I know there are alot of examples of same or similarly named weapons or gear with different stats. The heirophant is not in the nid codex at all...so it doesn't really matter what the codex says or what edition its in...its only the apoc book.

And the Apoc Book has no description of what the Warp Field does, so RAW it does nothing.

Where is everyone getting this 5++ from? The 4th edition warp field power gave a 2+/6++

Heh, technically Warp Field specifically states that it gives the Zoanthropes 3++... a Hierophant isn't a Zoanthrope

The Imperial Armour Book gives the Hierophant a 5++ warpfield save, as Warpfield was an actual rule, not referencing a long-gone Codex psychic power.

Yeah, Forgeworld are like that. They overcost their stuff. While it is a big scary unit with potential, it's not gamebreaking.

-Loki- wrote: Well, unless the new Vindicare assassin shieldbreaker rules are correct, which permanently strip invulnerable saves. That would really hurt the Hierophants day.

But needs 6's to wounds. (Take 6 of them! )


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Arson Fire wrote:Where is everyone getting this 5++ from? The 4th edition warp field power gave a 2+/6++

Hmmm, interesting.

Tarkand wrote:Heh, technically Warp Field specifically states that it gives the Zoanthropes 3++... a Hierophant isn't a Zoanthrope

Is the DoM technically a Zoanthrope then?

Emperors Faithful wrote:Is the DoM technically a Zoanthrope then?

in fluff yes,
in rules no

The FAQ says that DoM is in fact a Zoanthrope.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:The Imperial Armour Book gives the Hierophant a 5++ warpfield save, as Warpfield was an actual rule, not referencing a long-gone Codex psychic power.

Has a new IA book come out recently that pertains to tyranids? I'm looking at IA 4, and it states that the Hierophant is an 835 Point, T8, W5 creature with 3 Mass points and a 5++ which can be taken is units of 1-3. However, if your refering to the Hierophant in Apoc book however, then it is far different, and in fact the current one I believe...

As far as I know the rules in the Apoc book are more recent than the IA rules, so I at least have been operating under the assumption that we're using the Apoc rules.

If you're gonna field this thing, you should at least use the real model and not some kind of bitz amalgam that you put together. It would be much more impressive and won't leave your opponents feeling like they're fighting a toy.

Footsloggin wrote:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:The Imperial Armour Book gives the Hierophant a 5++ warpfield save, as Warpfield was an actual rule, not referencing a long-gone Codex psychic power.

Has a new IA book come out recently that pertains to tyranids? I'm looking at IA 4, and it states that the Hierophant is an 835 Point, T8, W5 creature with 3 Mass points and a 5++ which can be taken is units of 1-3. However, if your refering to the Hierophant in Apoc book however, then it is far different, and in fact the current one I believe...

I was actually refering to why people thinks it has a 5++ save, despite Warp field apparently giving a 6+ (I ahve the 4th ed nid codex, but it's buried under a pile of junk atm and I'm not looking forward to diging it out, especially since I only got 4 hours of sleep in the last 48 hours).

Also, if you're arguing over RAW and all that crap when you're playing Apocalypse battles, you should probably just not even play. Apocalypse is about fun, tons of models, huge explosions, etc.

Come to an agreement with your friends and play the game.

I've decided I'm just going to run it 2+, 6++ as the original rules intended for apoc. As for actually buying the forge world model, yeah, that'll happen, when I hit the lottery. I am not paying over $500 for a piece of resin that I won't even want to take out of the house because I paid so much for it in the first place, much less a $1000 for a reaver-titan. A $1000 is a down payment on a new car, not a piece of resin, at least not for me. If in this economy you have the kind of disposable income where you can afford forge world models I can only envy you.

ghazwaagh34 wrote:As for actually buying the forge world model, yeah, that'll happen, when I hit the lottery. I am not paying over $500 for a piece of resin that I won't even want to take out of the house because I paid so much for it in the first place, much less a $1000 for a reaver-titan. A $1000 is a down payment on a new car, not a piece of resin, at least not for me. If in this economy you have the kind of disposable income where you can afford forge world models I can only envy you.

It's actually $350 for the Hierophant - the US and Aussie dollars are about equal, and that's how much my fiancee paid for mine.

As for not using the official model - just don't expect people to be understanding unless your scratch build is top notch. Otherwise they're just going to think you're using one for advantage.

Not likely, most people I know around here scratch build hem. Plus I know for a fact mine is smaller then the forge world model, so how can I nudge an advantage out of it if it has to cross more terrain to charge, yet it's so big there is no conceivable way to give it cover. I scratch built a stomper out of a bucket, card stock, plastic piping and some toy bits and my opponent though it was hilarious, they loved it so much that I played it in two apoc games before the store closed due to mismanagement. More importantly $350 is not cheap for one model, you can start an army for that, or make a car payment! I don't know what your gaming community is like, but it sounds like either no body is paying car insurance or you live in some expensive real estate.

I'm not rich or anything, but its a hobby so I spend money on it

It is just kinda stupid to show up to an apocalypse game with all your models you bought and painted and somebody shows up with a ... bucket.

Can you buy 1250 points of models for $350? Can that 1250 point army (bought for $350) take out a single hierophant? If so, good buy. If not, don't feel bad, the hierophant is frigging awesome!

Also as a joke, model a venomthrope or two on the base (that you have to scratch build yourself LOL mine is based on 12"x12" coroplast (signboard)). Then your lovely Hierophant will have 5+ Cover and defensive grenades, too!

Note-do not really do this. Venomthropes work on hierophants but you have to actually pay the points and field the model BEHIND the 'phant. -end note

If my bucket blows a $$350-$1000 off the table what you call stupid I call really, really funny! I'll give you this, if spending between $350-$1000 brings you some joy then more power to you, I will not argue about spending money on a hobby because you're right about that, I have six 40k armies all that can fight at apoc level, however I always look to save at least 10-20% on my purchase through the likes of CCG armory or sci-fi genre. So let me put in another perspective you might able to appreciate. A land raider costs about what, $50-$60, do you really think it costs GW that much to make it. I have been told by every GW employee that I've known that they mark up the price over 3x its production value. Can you imagine the mark up Forge World plagues their customers with? I love the hobby, but I won't spend life's savings on it. Will I spend $350 on regular G.W. stuff, I might but most likely not in one purchase. Will I but $350 on one piece of resin that I can't use in F.O.C. battles which are almost 95% of the standard games played in store, I won't and can't justify it. Allow me to use the G.W. ork Stompa as an example, only a $100, yet no one I know will buy one because of how infrequently apoc is played. I spent $15 on my bucket, spent less then 2 hours assembling it, and it won two battles right after that. I'd say I got my $15 worth. Difference between bucket heads like me and hard core forge world purists is I play Apoc to have fun, which is why I started the thread in the first place. I won't even get on the table with a guy who has a problem with the bucket because you know right off the cuff the guy probably only plays to win. So in closing man, let's not forget we're essentially grown men playing with toy soldiers, how seriously should we really get about the hobby, for me paying $350 for one resin model is just too serious, so the bucket shall stomp again.


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As for venomthropes behind the Hierophant, now that is funny. I know the rules will allow it, but I would just fell like such a cheese ball doing it that it would definitely be worth a good laugh. I'm gonna do that to someone I owe a good one to. As one nid polayer to another nid player let me ask you this, the spore chimney, technically would that actually protect the phant to. I wonder about the cheese factor since after all the chimnney's are supposed to belch out huge plume of toxic spores which probably would be big enough to obscure even a phant? That might actually be a plausible way to make up for it's lack of an invuln save and keep reavers from blasting it right off the board.

You missed the point completely.

The Hierophant, like all FW items, are Luxury items even by 40k standards. My friend makes a living by selling upscale watches. These cost 4000 dollars a piece. Who uses a watch to tell time when you have a cellphone? (especially since most phones come free with a 3 year contract) By comparison a Hierophant's retardedly cheap. In addition, ALL companies mark things up by that much. You think the material costs come anywhere close to that? They mark it up because that's how they make profit. If they give you the actual worth of the plastics, then all the effort that went in to produce the molds, procuring the resin, casting, packaging and shipping (not the part on the plane, but the part where they deliver it themselves) would be wasted, at least for them.

Luxury items are designed to be visually and aesthetically appealing. Apocalypse, likewise, is also a more upscaled, luxury gaming system, as who can regularly spend a whole day playing a game, let alone dishing out the cash for all those models?

Bottom line is, at the end of the day they are just toy soldiers. It's a hobby like any other. However if all you want to do is win, then use a bucket. For others who enjoy the journey, watching their armies grow, the Hierophant would be like that last coin in your coin collection, that rare card that makes your set complete, that grand trophy you won on the most important sports game of your life.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:The Hierophant, like all FW items, are Luxury items even by 40k standards. My friend makes a living by selling upscale watches. These cost 4000 dollars a piece. Who uses a watch to tell time when you have a cellphone? (especially since most phones come free with a 3 year contract) By comparison a Hierophant's retardedly cheap. In addition, ALL companies mark things up by that much. You think the material costs come anywhere close to that? They mark it up because that's how they make profit. If they give you the actual worth of the plastics, then all the effort that went in to produce the molds, procuring the resin, casting, packaging and shipping (not the part on the plane, but the part where they deliver it themselves).

Luxury items are designed to be visually and aesthetically appealing. Apocalypse, likewise, is also a more upscaled, luxury gaming system, as who can regularly spend a whole day playing a game, let alone dishing out the cash for all those models?

Bottom line is, at the end of the day they are just toy soldiers. It's a hobby like any other. However if all you want to do is win, then use a bucket. For others who enjoy the journey, watching their armies grow, the Hierophant would be like that last coin in your coin collection, that rare card that makes your set complete, that grand trophy you won on the most important sports game of your life.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

That image brings me horror. Citizen Kane was on my test last week XD

Ah... Sorry?

My favorite is the running joke that printed rules should be ignored because the model with them listed should not be able to use them. Despite GW ruling otherwise at ever single option they have used.
editing to add:
I have previously agreed with this. GW has since proved it is not correct.
People (outside of GW) only assume otherwise if it is not a space marine army, oddly enough.

Oh wait, now it is because they cahnged it from a psychic power.

lol

Is that Hitler Clapping for the Doom of Malan'Tai?

Uh, Think we kinda just said the same thing man, Said I play for fun, Sorry, but most people don't buy a $60000 Porsche just for fun that for fun, they do it because they're trying to impress people. but if i pay $10000 for a rinky dink hynudai which still gets me from A to be, and I have just as much fun hanging out with my friends and it gets me where I gotta go how do i lose. You buy a Porsche to win races, you buy hyundai because you want to get to work and pay bills. You kind of made my own point for me, nobody is buying a $4000 watch just because they think it's funm, they do it becuse it fulfills some need. So my point is if you have to spend $1000 on a mini or $4000 on a watch to enjoy your day, and I don't but can still enjoy mine how do I come off competitive when I'm not even playing the game. My reference to my bucket winning is that I only paid $15 bucks for it and it does what it has to do. In one game where it lost to the blood angels it took out a $100 bane blade in the first turn, The guy beat me with flank march, he was a cool dude, we played a cool game, and we had fun. So guess what it comes down to is some people need a shiny $4000 gold watch to have fun, and some are happy enough to be content with a $30 timex, who's luckier?

Wasn't your post about justifying the 350 dollars spent on it? I did just that. Some people indeed enjoy just having an expensive piece of resin sitting there, for the sole reason of having it. Others enjoy the time it takes from getting the pieces into their hands all to the way where it's assembled and painted, and they could call it their own.

Also, ever go shopping with a girl? I had one drag me up and down the entire city of toronto from north to south, east to west, in a single day looking for a pair of shoes. She said she was only going to spend 20 bucks in china town and ended up blowing 400 dollars by the end of it, all of which came from buying a series of useless nicknacks. While I'll never get it, the experience of shopping for expensive items itself is an enjoyment of it's own. Not saying you have to get it, but you dont have to talk down to others who do.

Dude, really.

40k itself is an expensive, incredibly pointless hobby. You're buying, building and painting toy soldiers. I know people find it offensive, but it's the truth.

Forgeworld is a niche within a niche. It's models are unnecessary. Even in Apocalypse, there's no need for them, even if they are powerful. If you're going to use the rules for a Forgeworld model, either have the model or a really good scratch build, or its just going to piss off the people you're playing against.

I'm curious as to what specifics you're refering to with G.W.'s rulings, can you site a few specific examples?


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First of all let me apologize if It seems as though I'm being disdaining, remember in the post I was responding to the guy did call me stupid, but this is not a who started what affair, I think your simply coming from a different point, you can't ever justify buying forge world to me, any more then you could ever then you can ever make a Chistian justify abortion, I just don't believe in buying them. My point in saying I don't need them is not to be offensive, can you rally take umbrage with me If I don't feel the need to spend a lot of money, yet still enjoy the hobby. Second of all, why would any one who realizes that we are just playing toy soldiers, and that the hobby is ultimately pointless, want get pissed of about a scratch built model. You just said your self, it is a matter of personal satisfaction. If someone chooses to spend a solid G on an luxury model then what call do they have to get pissed at me if I choose not to. So where is the argument? If you don't like the guys model, don't get on the table with them. I gotta ask you guys honestly, has any ever gotten angry with you because of what you put on the table?

Incredibly so. While the gaming buddies I have here respect creative use of cheaper models, when someone just plops down a paper pieplate or a soda can and call it Fateweaver or a land raider, it really irks us, even if it conforms to the dimensional requirements. Moreso for my friends, as they work really hard to save up money for their models (I save, but I dont work nearly as hard as they do, certainly not dealing with drunken idiots who ordered 400 chicken nuggets at 4am in the morning).

Plus, for those who just wanna play the game, there's always DoW.

ghazwaagh34 wrote: If someone chooses to spend a solid G on an luxury model then what call do they have to get pissed at me if I choose not to. So where is the argument? If you don't like the guys model, don't get on the table with them. I gotta ask you guys honestly, has any ever gotten angry with you because of what you put on the table?

Well that's the thing. The rules are there for the luxury model. If you don't have the luxury model, or a really good scratch build of it, don't use those rules. Just go without the unit.

The Imperial Armour 4 had the Rules for the Hierophant for use pre-APO
The GW Apo book has the Hierophant rules for use in 4ed.
There are no rules for it in 5ed.
So as with all APO things you need to verify the rules you want to use pre to the game.
I for one would use the APO 4ed since I think he costs to less for a 3++ (look at the Tzeentch deamon and his costs with a 3++ save).
So he only has: +1A (proof for 4ed rules), -2A due to lash wips and 2+/6++ save
You would also have to clarify the rules for destroyer weapon vs. GC. Destroyer cause ID. In the Destroyer weapons they say it causes 1 Wound as normal.
But GC says such attacks cause d3 wounds. I would use the GC rules as it makes sence imo (Force weapon causes d3 but D weapon only 1?!)

As for tailoring your army list to fight against him. That holds true imo for any APO Unit worth his no of Points.
That are 2 1/2 Baneblades if you did not tailor how do you take those out without suffering?
As a counter I could see:
TAU Broads without FOC you coul take 15 of them with BS4 Thus 13 hits 8 wounds 6++ -> 7 wounds down -> 1 regenerated. He then can kill 2 broads but then would die
SM Lascanon HS teams 5 Teams = 20LS
2 Warhounds with Turbo laser that are more or less 8xd3 wounds. so
Are those sure fire things? no but possibilities and do not forget cover saves which all can use but not the hierophant.
I see that the Hierophant is powerful and he better is for his points.

PS: we kept using 4ed Tyranid rules anyway

To be honest ghazwaaagh, if you were to come into my Apocalypse game, plop a bucket on the table and call it your 'counts as a Hierophant, because I don't believe in buying from FW' I would not let you field it, unless you had done a damn good conversion. Why? Because, in all honesty, I see THAT as the sign of WAAC not Forge World. I mean...I have a Warhound Titan from FW sitting in its bag next to me, and I am excitingly getting it prepped for assembly. I got it because I think its one kick ass model, and will look AWESOME on the tabletop. Its rules never entered into the equation once. It could be the most OP piece of gak you've ever seen, or a complete waster of my time and money as far as rules go and I STILL would have bought it. As has been said, owning, assembling, and painting it would be its own reward.

Now, if I wanted to be a WAAC gamer, I would have found the most competitive Titan rules (probably the Warlord), stuck a few cardboard boxes on top of each other and called it done. I really don't see how your logic of FW=WAAC carries through. To me the opposite is true...someone fielding FW is more likely to be a mature, well developed player who I can an awesome time gaming with. Someone fielding a crappy proxy is more likely to be WAAC who just wanted to field some FW rules, without doing any of the work. At least, that's what I'd assume at first glance....

All in all, just my .02 cents.

For the record, I didn't say you were stupid. I said it is a stupid move if "...".

Other posters have posted pretty good statements agreeing with me. The funny part is a Stompa is cheap and looks great, moreso than 75% of the conversions I've seen of it. The myth that you're putting forth that liking to have real models for the units you're fielding means you're gonna be a WAAC gamer is just something that boggles my mind. Who is the dude talkin' about how his $15 bucket has wrecked face constantly, as opposed to "it looks really cool on the tabletop"?

Let me clarify then where I think you might be misunderstanding me, concerning my scratch the two i built have played every one I've played against has liked. First of all I always ask the opponent if they have a prob with scratch built so I've never had any issues. When you look at my stompa you don't see a bucket walking across the table at you, in fact no part of it the bucket is actually visible. I used cheap material, but fielded something that every one at the shop thought was cool, its not the most impressive thing you've ever seen, but no one had a problem playing it. I call it my bucket because I used a bucket as the main support to form the body. I was being what you call facetious because I'm not taking this seriously, and I surely don't take the bucket seriously either. I don't blame you one bit for getting irritated if someone places a beer can on the table, I've never done that. I told you guys I have six functioning armies, nids, orks, chaos eldar, dark eldar, ultra marines, amd imp guard, and all can play on the apoc level. I don't know many people who have a 40k collection as big as mine, which you must have missed when I said before. You've already agreed with me about simply not playing with someone who's models offend you, which was, in my own post, exactly my point. I wrote that the bucket, as I refer to it, won 2 out of 3 fights its been in, so for $15 bucks the point it it does exactly what it needs to, amusingily represents a stompa in an apoc game. There's no model that kicks face if its only been in three fights. I appreciate you clarifying the stupid remark, and I hope I clarified the misunderstanding with my scratch builts as I've never pissed of any one with what I put on the table. The only guy I know who doesn't like the bucket is a snob I don't play with anyway. So lets put this way, all last year I tried to get people into apoc fights, guess how many managed to successfully schedule given everyone's hectic life, 3. Out of 12 months people could only make 3 fights, so again my point about buying expensive models I'll never get to play for me is perfectly justified. Me7000 you made another point for me about taking a women shopping, I believe there's only two things in life you should spend a grand on in one shot, women and cars. I mean no offense here either, but I don't care how many people agree with anybody, I'm never buying a forge world model, but I figure most of you probably have, which is why were having this correspondence. To which I say, enjoy your resin behemoths, because I will be the first one to admit many forge world models look friggin awesome, but not everyone plays just because they like the aesthetics. I play because I like to play, and I win half the time and lose half the time, that's the fortunes of war. Concerning WAAC, I don't know what that means, but I can tell you this, I'm sorry, I don't judge people on they how look, I'm not judging them on how there models look. You might not meant to entail that in your statement, but it did sort of come off that way. If a guy doesn't have the money to buy FW, and he doesn't have the talent to build one, I'm not going tom judge the dude poorly because of it. I respect your comment about maturity, but think about it ME7000 if a dude wants to play Apoc and he doesn't have the money because he's got a family to support and he really isn't a good converterare you going tell him off. I'm not, I'd feel like a jerk.


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Well all in all lets not forget the reason why I posted this forum: to discuss how to run a hierophant fairly. I believe that running as rules intended, 2+,6++ is the only real way to do that as a 3++ for such a fearsome beast is just simply unfair. So I thank everyone for the advice an opinions. Happy posting and Good gaming.

tbh I actually havent bought from Forge World yet. However growing up as an artist, you tend to see people spend ludicrous amounts of money on what I consider to be pisspoor paintings. The Hierophant, by a longshot, is much more sensable and cheap compared to those (at least this thing is something you can call your own, and actually use in a game. Paintings literally just sit on the wall collecting dust)

Given that a converted Stompa from a bucket is actually a decent and acceptable idea, I do apologise for misunderstanding you. However using a Bucket to represent a Hierophant though, that's really just trying to be a WAAC player.

Also, I think me and loki discussed this earlier, but the Hierophant actualyl gives you the best points-to-dollar ratio of any of the titans, costing less than a full warhound but giving you almost twice the points (as well as being actually worth the points).

ghazwaagh34 wrote: I respect your comment about maturity, but think about it ME7000 if a dude wants to play Apoc and he doesn't have the money because he's got a family to support and he really isn't a good converterare you going tell him off. I'm not, I'd feel like a jerk.

I'd let him. If the scratch built was decent. If he made a rubbish attempt, then no.

While I get that particular point, I have to ask: if he has a family to support that badly, why is he playing 40k? The Hierophant would be something that you'd take time to save up for, not buy on an impulse. Given the amount of time one has between apoc games, it's not entirely unreasonable that the person in question would have been able to save up enough money for one, or properly convert one.

That and there's no actual requirement to field the damn thing in an Apoc match.

I have to agree, if it's gotten so bad that he can't buy models because he has to support a family, I'd question whether it's wise to be spending the kind of money on 40k to begin with.

I also apologize, as it seemed like you were saying you had a bucket on the table, and said the bucket was a stompa. If it's a proper conversion, that looks cool then awesome. More powere to you.