Ok, I KNOW SM chapters have rigorous selection processes to ensure that only the best of the bestest become Space Marines (hurr!) and if you're not up to it you die.

But what if the High Lords said, screw it, I'd rather 1000 half-trained super soldiers and a single fully trained one. Then they grab the next Cadian youth regiment and stuff them with geneseed, maybe 3/4ths or more die but hey, at the end of the day you have 1,000s of semi-space marines, not bad!

Hell even if they ALL die, you can keep recycling the geneseed until something sticks.

So my questions are,

Can the High Lords + Mechanicum actually DO this? Way I see it YES, cause the AdMech have the geneseed and its the High Lords who decide its time to found new chapters etc., not the SM.

What would be the reaction of the SM chapters? My initial reaction is they'd be pissed as hell, but would they really? I could be wrong but I've never heard of SM chapters complaining about foundings:

- lets found a whole bunch of chapters and make them guard the Eye of Terror! (the Astartes Praeses)
- lets found a chapter to fight daemonic possession! (Exorcists)
- I KNOW lets modify the geneseed to create a new breed of improved Space Marines! (21st Cursed Founding)

Then you have chapters like the Blood Ravens running around who don't even know where they came from. You'd think the other chapters would be suspicious as hell but I haven't heard anything (again, I could be wrong). So what does Dakka think?

The geneseed im sure is not like a shoe that you can pass around until it fits, it will get dammaged and the loss of a single one is irreplaceable.

Remember as well that something as logical to people from our time like finding a way to mass produce marines or heck even titans would be heretical to both admech and lords alike in 40k.

Because it is so much cheaper to field a million cannon fodder with more basic than it is to make one space marine while equipping him with really good equipment?

@HiddenPower

Good point, to be honest I'm not so sure. Whether or not the geneseed rejects the applicant seems to be totally random. But I'm pretty sure it can be salvaged from the applicant's corpse.

@Void_Dragon

I'm pretty sure a single marine is cheaper than 1,000,000 guardsmen, no need for hyperbole.

Well if the choosing process is so high attrition. They only accept the strongest and most capable a world or few worlds have to offer. Which isnt a large supply seemingly even in 40ks galaxy spanning Imperium. This in part stops the chapters becoming too powerful again to threaten the Imperium like the Legions did. Also I think that if you just mass made marines youd make them less effective if you stopped going for the brightest and best a planet has to offer. With lower quality of marines as a result. Nevermind the economic cost of mass supplying astartes power armor and weapons.

To be honest it comes to it the guard are more cost effective for mass deployment and much easier to maintain.

Edit: plus as said before. Geneseed is a finite resource. Cloning it has horrible effects and the only way to grow more of it is with marines that survive recruitment. Even as it is thats not a high growth rate due to rejection. If you made tons more marines and were less scrupulous about who got the geneseed you'd stand a chance of destroying the stocks of it.

Definitely the mass produced marines would not be as good as "the real thing". But that's my question, would it be better to have 100 mass marines armed with carapace armor and ripper guns, vs a single full-fledged marine w/ power armor and bolter? Think of it as a middle ground between the IG and the Marines.

Follow-up question is, would it be possible? I think so, based on my reasoning in my original post. The SM chapters don't seem to care much how / why the High Lords decide to found new chapters. Noted on geneseed being finite; personally I agree with you but I think its not THAT limited. The AdMech grows the stuff, tithes some more from existing chapters, and has enough on hand to once in awhile create 10~ chapters in one founding, so that's 10k geneseed right there.

Geneseed is a finite resource, and you want to be careful that you don't pull random bums off the street who are suspectable to corruption. It's better to have 1000 super soldiers who have a very slim chance of flipping to Chaos, than to have 10000 supersoldiers who might be more likely to flip.

Yes but how long might it have taken to get decent quality geneseed? From what I gather geneseed is not just geneseed. Some of it can be unstable and mutate. Making it highly risky to use.

What your asking for wouldnt be true space marines then. Your talking of minor gene therapy (compared to space marines). If you did the gene therapy and the not quite so in depth conversion a space marine undergoes it could be doable on a large scale. Technically such soldiers exist in the form of the adeptus mechanicus Skitarii legions and tech guard. They are heavily modified both genetically and with cybernetics to make elite shock troops. Even then those arent commonplace armies in the Imperium.

Lexx wrote:Yes but how long might it have taken to get decent quality geneseed? From what I gather geneseed is not just geneseed. Some of it can be unstable and mutate. Making it highly risky to use.

What your asking for wouldnt be true space marines then. Your talking of minor gene therapy (compared to space marines). If you did the gene therapy and the not quite so in depth conversion a space marine undergoes it could be doable on a large scale. Technically such soldiers exist in the form of the adeptus mechanicus Skitarii legions and tech guard. They are heavily modified both genetically and with cybernetics to make elite shock troops. Even then those arent commonplace armies in the Imperium.

There are also other genetically engineered soldiers in the form of the Macharian Clones(Last Chancers), the DKoK probably has had some genetic modifications since they are all clones, and we know that genetically engineered soldiers other than Astartes were used in the Great Crusade.

It's firstly, not economic. Equipping and maintaining a Space Marine is expensive enough, doing that on a large scale would be difficult and too expensive for the job they do. Secondly, there's a finite number of potential applicants. They not only have to strong of body, but strong of mind, which only makes long-running traditional recruiting grounds like Ultramar, and Feral worlds possible recruitment grounds. Even after recruitment, not everyone can pass the rigorous acceptance trials, which narrows it down further. It's narrowed down even further as not even all recruits who pass the trials are genetically acceptable.
Then there's The Imperial Command's unwillingness to allow a large number of Space Marines to exists, due to the superstition that they could turn against them and cause another Heresy, such apprehension isn't exactly unfounded.
It's also more economical to have trillions of Guard who can fulfill more roles, and that a huge number of Space Marines aren't even needed as they fulfill a very small, if vital, role in the protection of The Imperium.

Not to mention that even they don't understand the tech behind the creation of the Space Marine.
They screw it up a few times they tried to change something. Trying to create a bunch of Space Marines using technology you don't understand completely, very bad idea...
Not to mention that since Horus Heresy SM are not so loved by Imperial authorities.
And Space Marines are not designed to fought long wars of nutrition, they are design for fast surgical strikes. Imperial Guard is quite good at that, but they lack standardization on every world since only few planets in the Imperium are knows for training hardcore Guardsman.

WARS OF NUTRITION!

iproxtaco wrote:WARS OF NUTRITION!

That actually got a real life laugh from me.

I had forgotten about the Macharian clone stuff. But yes it would be unrealistic to call the results of what the OP wants a real space marine. Sure limited genetic changes and some cybernetics can be done but mass producing space marines just wont work. Or be allowed to. The biggest effect the chapter system has is it keeps the marines power base scattered and small. So they wont be as easily able to undermine the Imperium again like the legions did.

Thanks for the replies guys!

I still don't think that cost is a factor at all, if they really wanted to the High Lords could press-gang whole worlds to produce material for their mass produced marines. Its the kind of thing the IoM excel at :p And as mentioned they would not have to be as well trained or equipped, that's the whole point of mass produced. Quantity is its own quality after all haha.

But yeah, the whole flipping to Chaos bit and worry about a new HH cropping up would be a big downer to churning out marines fast and easy. Point conceded.

I guess the only question I have left is why the Space Marines don't have a greater say in new chapter foundings. They don't consider themselves completely under the jurisdiction of the High Lords, so you'd think they'd be more vocal about how 'their' geneseed is utilized. What if Terra decides to create a new chapter from SW and DA geneseed, would Logan be cool with that?

Void__Dragon wrote:Because it is so much cheaper to field a million cannon fodder with more basic than it is to make one space marine while equipping him with really good equipment?

The flip side is, the geneseed marie thing is over rated. To paraphrase the immortal Bard: Its the power armor stupid!
Equip guard with power armor and you have heavy infantry that can do most of the same things marines can. Fluffwise its doable. Codex wise its doable (Nuns with Guns and inquisitorial retainers). Remember, in 30K guard had access to skimmers and landraiders.

Who knows what skitarii really have?

Yes, it's the power armour, which is a massive problem to mass-production.

Frazzled wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:Because it is so much cheaper to field a million cannon fodder with more basic than it is to make one space marine while equipping him with really good equipment?

The flip side is, the geneseed marine thing is over rated. To paraphrase the immortal Bard: Its the power armor stupid!
Equip guard with power armor and you have heavy infantry that can do most of the same things marines can. Fluffwise its doable. Codex wise its doable (Nuns with Guns and inquisitorial retainers).

Yes and no.

Fluffwise, the Power Armor that the Sororitas and 'normal' humans wear is basically "Dumb Armor" compared to the Astartes stuff. For the Sororitas and others wearing power armor without the genemodifications and Black Carapace--it's like strapping yourself into armor made out of a bunch of garbage cans.

For the Astartes, it's like having a second skin. They don't really suffer any ill effects (aside from it cutting down on their ability to manipulate really delicate mechanisms whilst wearing their gauntlets), but they gain all the benefits and bonuses of power armor--and then some.

Remember, in 30K guard had access to skimmers and landraiders.

Land Raiders, no. They did have skimmers though and could feasibly be given Land Raiders--but the majority of their transports were Sabres or Chimeras or even Rhinos.
Skimmers are a different story entirely though. The reasoning behind them becoming "Astartes only" in terms of fielding them is likely a strategic doctrine. The Guard don't really need something to zoom around in and get closer to the enemy with. They need heavily armed platforms to blow crap up with.

Who knows what skitarii really have?

The Mechanicus. And they're not telling.

Geneseed isn't finite, it is just extremely labour intensive to produce.

It works like this:

Implant geneseed into guy. Harvest 2 geneseed.
Implant those two into two other guys. Harvest 4 geneseed.

So on and so forth. If I get a moment I will find some fluff to back it up.

Fluffwise, the Power Armor that the Sororitas and 'normal' humans wear is basically "Dumb Armor" compared to the Astartes stuff. For the Sororitas and others wearing power armor without the genemodifications and Black Carapace--it's like strapping yourself into armor made out of a bunch of garbage cans.

For the Astartes, it's like having a second skin. They don't really suffer any ill effects (aside from it cutting down on their ability to manipulate really delicate mechanisms whilst wearing their gauntlets), but they gain all the benefits and bonuses of power armor--and then some.

***Agreed. Mass production of SOB style power armor would obtain most of the benefits of marines on the land, and eliminate the damage when they fall to chaos of their fleet going to chaos (the real risk is their fleet assets, their ground pounders are barely relevant).

Land Raiders, no. They did have skimmers though and could feasibly be given Land Raiders--but the majority of their transports were Sabres or Chimeras or even Rhinos.
Skimmers are a different story entirely though. The reasoning behind them becoming "Astartes only" in terms of fielding them is likely a strategic doctrine. The Guard don't really need something to zoom around in and get closer to the enemy with. They need heavily armed platforms to blow crap up with.

***Interestingly, earlier IG codexes in fact note their use of landraiders, which were later prohibited after the Heresy.

Who knows what skitarii really have?

The Mechanicus. And they're not telling.

Space Marines are already being mass produces as fast as reasonably possible. The gene-seed they store is only for emergency back ups in case they need to repopulate a decimated chapter (which isn't that uncommon). When they get enough of a stockpile, they just make a new chapter.

Didn't the last time the Emperor mass produce space marines lead to the Horus Heresy?

Also Corax tried to accelerate Space Marine production, and look how that turned out.

It's a waste of resources.
With the amount of time invested in to creating a Space Marine, you could recruit a million Guardsmen. Who aren't as dangerous if they go all whoopykillHERESY and don't think of a braindead Smurf as their spiritual liege.

rabidaskal wrote:Ok, I KNOW SM chapters have rigorous selection processes to ensure that only the best of the bestest become Space Marines (hurr!) and if you're not up to it you die.

But what if the High Lords said, screw it, I'd rather 1000 half-trained super soldiers and a single fully trained one. Then they grab the next Cadian youth regiment and stuff them with geneseed, maybe 3/4ths or more die but hey, at the end of the day you have 1,000s of semi-space marines, not bad!

Hell even if they ALL die, you can keep recycling the geneseed until something sticks.

A. the selection process is not just about picking those that are good soldiers, it is about selecting those that can accept geneseed without being killed or causing a taint to the chapter's geneseed

B. geneseed cannot be reused, once the 20 organs have been propergated the geneseed is used up and you then need the space marine's progenoids to mature to get more geneseed, that is why a single poorly picked recruit can be very costly.

C. space marines are super-human and when compared to other super-humans they are very stable and long lived, the reason that space marines are organised as they are is to protect the IoM.

D. the shear cost of fitting out a single chapter founding is massive, to supply a legion of new space marines would require a massive burden of multiple systems.

BluntmanDC wrote:D. the shear cost of fitting out a single chapter founding is massive, to supply a legion of new space marines would require a massive burden of multiple systems.

Yet historically they were able to do that with the Legions. Again, taking the geneseed out of the equation and just talking troopers, its not that big a deal.

the problem is that the process kills many of the initiates.


the organ implants are what kills them, and if that isn't it the training will.





now, the High Lords could simply found more chapters then they traditionally do, but it would be expensive and the potential risk would be fairly high.

Frazzled wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:D. the shear cost of fitting out a single chapter founding is massive, to supply a legion of new space marines would require a massive burden of multiple systems.

Yet historically they were able to do that with the Legions. Again, taking the geneseed out of the equation and just talking troopers, its not that big a deal.

The Legions were a tiny minority within the imperial warmachine, even during the Great Crusade. At least unless someone wants to explain me how only 1-2 million spacemarines can conquer an entire galaxy

Besides that, power armour is expensive and difficult to produce. The Sisters wear it because the church is filthy rich, some inquisitors wear it because they usualy don't have to care about money and the Space
Marines wear it because they have ancient pacts with the Mechanicus. To produce powerarmour for billions of guardsmen s completely illusionary when even carapace armour is too expensive/ difficult to produce to
provide it as standard equipment for every guardsman.

I'd liken it to the liked of todays special forces; all militaries have them. In the US you have a group like the Marines, or the Navy. In these groups most people would say both have thier purpose like the imperial guard does. but within those groups you have Recon and seals. both are just very intensive to train, and equip. best weapons, best body armor, best everything on the roughest and toughest possible... nwo incluse a need for specific genetic markers into the equation and you'd find it harder and harder to fill those ranks.

In the fluff I like how the space marines are... in practive i HATE that they are everywhere and some overpowered (I'm looking at BA and Wolves)

They did mass produce them. It was called the golden age of man and mass produced marines reconquered the entire galaxy, almost.
Then this gak happened.

The issue with why this wouldn't work as noted by others is economic - it essentially takes a lifetime to train and prep a Marine and it takes a few weeks of basic trainign combined with a cheap weapons/armor kit to create a guardsman. It doesn't make much sense to invest time and effort to create say a single Chapter when in the same time frame you could raise dozens of regiments and produce the armored tanks that support them. The Imperium has been about quantity over quality for a long time now.

Besides the basic time and effort there is the well known tendency of the geneseed to go wacky should you mess with it in any way. You run a very good chance of having your soldiers turn into mostrosities or even worse from an Inquisitorial perspective foster more "subtle" mutations that would lead them down the path of chaos.

Then you have the cultural angle - the Imperium wouldn't want a bunch of proto-Space Marines around for a good reason. The last time you had a lot of these elite super soldiers around you had this little thing called the Horus Heresy. Imperial Guard regiments are easy to control and just as easy to annhilate should the time come. You make your soldiers too good and they're not as easy to control.

I think another issue no one has raised yet are the Space Marines themselves. The geneseed is sacred to them and to have the authorities treat it like it was a simple weapons upgrade would be obscene and reprehensible for them, They would not be happy about it and why piss of the Space Marines unneccesarily?

The Sisters of Battle fulfill the role of sub-par mass produced Space Marines quite well. Their undying loyalty is also preferable to the bold independance common among Space Marine Chapters.

So yes, they could create a mass production of Space Marines, but it's easier to field Sisters wearing power armor and sporting bolters than it is to use tons of geneseed.

Snarky wrote:Didn't the last time the Emperor mass produce space marines lead to the Horus Heresy?

This. Far more harm can be done mass producing low grade Astartes than good.

Frazzled wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:D. the shear cost of fitting out a single chapter founding is massive, to supply a legion of new space marines would require a massive burden of multiple systems.

Yet historically they were able to do that with the Legions. Again, taking the geneseed out of the equation and just talking troopers, its not that big a deal.

You are forgetting that during the Great Crusade the whole 'hocus pocus' element of construction for highend tech was not present, so it was alot easier to produce things.

And space marine tech has advanced over 10000 years, power armour was alot simpler in the Great Crusade, so more likely easier to produce.

Frazzled wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:D. the shear cost of fitting out a single chapter founding is massive, to supply a legion of new space marines would require a massive burden of multiple systems.

Yet historically they were able to do that with the Legions. Again, taking the geneseed out of the equation and just talking troopers, its not that big a deal.

Taking the geneseed out of the equation, it still wasn't done that much and it wasn't near as big of a part for the Legions as you believe.

We've got a few examples of this, most notably Luther of the Dark Angels, where it required a lot of augmentative surgery and really rare and timeconsuming customized Artificer grade Power Armor.

Now I'm just thinking of massive labs of test patients to grow geneseed, no need for training, power armor or even worry to much about Heresy, just recruit a hefty amount of genetically viable "recruits", implant the geneseed then keep them in the lab to monitor, once their ready harvest the organs then implant them in a new recruit.

Unless I'm mistaken, and that your going to end up with less than or equal to the number of geneseeds. Meaning, say it takes 10 organs, we place all 10 into Bill, Bill's progeniator (sp?) finally matures, we harvest Bill, now do we get 10 back, or 20?

BeefCakeSoup wrote:The Sisters of Battle fulfill the role of sub-par mass produced Space Marines quite well. Their undying loyalty is also preferable to the bold independance common among Space Marine Chapters.

So yes, they could create a mass production of Space Marines, but it's easier to field Sisters wearing power armor and sporting bolters than it is to use tons of geneseed.

There are fewer Sisters of Battle than Marines.

rabidaskal wrote:@Void_Dragon

I'm pretty sure a single marine is cheaper than 1,000,000 guardsmen, no need for hyperbole.

Um...I beg to differ. I think that a million guardsmen would be a cheap price to pay for the life of a Space Marine. Honestly, the Imperial Guard is huge and takes ridiculous casualties. The sheer trillions upon trillions of people in the Imperium, the ridiculous amount of resources they all take, and their prodigous reproduction rate all adds up to one inescapable conclusion: human life is unbelievably cheap in the future. Space Marines are far more valuable.

This is, of course, just my opinion, and I could be wrong.

After reading about the well trainined and disciplined guardsmen in Legion, and then really thinking about it, I think the opposite, what's the point in Space Marines?!

Well trained humans in body armour with good weapons and armour could kill absolutely anything. Give them some heavy weapons, mortars, artillery, what couldn't they defeat if they had the mettle?

Line ten million blokes up with las guns would and they annhiliate anything they aimed at! Send ten thousand space marines up against ten million guards and I know who my money is on.. They could even win in fisticuffs! If a SM got dog piled by 50 guys, he's a dead man, I mean, how many heads is he gonna cave in before he gets his eyes gouged out? 5 or 6?

And have you seen how fast humans breed? Were like goddamn rats! I think we could beat the Tyranids with swords if we sent a 10 billion men at them. And that's just a drop in the ocean. They say there are 300 billion people on some hive worlds, no wonder the Imperium can beat anything they throw the guard at. Id just arm every second imperial citizen on a hive world with a las pistol and whats going to be able to take it?

Mangy dogs can kill a lion if there are enough of them.

There seems to be a basic misunderstanding of how Geneseed works. Its a one time use thing. When an apothecary or whatever goes around harvesting the geneseed of his fallen battlebrothers, hes not harvesting the organs that the Marine used or anything like that, he is harvesting the geneseed produced in the progenoid gland. It takes 5 to 10 years for the progenoid gland housing the geneseed to mature and be ready for removal. I hope you don't need me to explain to you why mass producing marines would thus be impossible. If they take 100 random recruits and stuff em full of geneseed, and 75 of them die off, they just lost 75 sets of organs/geneseed, etc., and chances are the remaining 25 aren't going to last long enough to provide 25 new sets of gene seed, because the lower quality marines either wont survive training, or their first battle.

I think that those who pointed it being an economic issue have it right.

The IoM is only able to produce a finite number of bolters, chainsaw-swords and power armor. To achieve the best use of this technology they only give it to the best and brightest, who are then genetically modified into superhumans.

Production inefficiencies create surplus allowing for the SoB or wealthy purchasers to acquire power armor, but for the most part it is constrained to the Emperor's Finest.

The idea that the geneseed would degrade seems to be a poor argument because of the history of the Legions and the ability to produce a large number of SM during a founding. It seems that when the IoM wants to make a whole bunch of marines at once, they can. While mutation is an issue, it wasn't really that widespread of an issue during the Great Crusade.

Regarding the risk of Chaos, the impression I get from the HH books is that the Marines who turned didn't do so due to a flaw in their gene-seed, but rather due to some sort of mental or social corruption by Chaos. The continued existence of marines going rogue seems to confirm that the purity of the geneseed isn't the controlling issue.

However, it might be true that there are certain personalities that are more susceptable to turning to Chaos. Perhaps as much as 50% (which would explain the heresy). Therefore, the selection process is probably more about determining those susceptable to the taint of Chaos than providing "the best" soldiers.

Finally, given that the IoM was able to produce and equip a number of marines at short notice (foundings, Legions), it seems that industrial capacity isn't that much of an issue (given a galaxy-wide empire, it shouldn't be hard to find spare production), and the threat of Chaos appears to be an overstated concern.

With the Emperor currently...unresponsive...and without the Primarchs to provide guidance for the marines, there is a threat (real or perceived) of the superhuman Marines taking over the IoM for their own ends. Not necessarily after turning to Chaos, but simply because they think they could do a better job or view the existing leadership as weak and/or ineffective.

So there are really 3 reasons for the scarcity of Marines:
1) Limited resources
2) Limiting susceptability to Chaos
3) Preventing a military coup.

I think #3 is the major option, and the primaryreason thats an issue are the fleets attached to the marines. A bunch of trained apes with guns is one thing. Trained apes piloting ships that can launch exterminatus is quite another.

As I think was said before they are already doing it fast as possible. They lost most ways to create it In the Heresy plus they wouldn't want too. Heresy round two wouldn't end up so well especially with no Big E or primarch's

its definitly #3



the Horus Heresy basically scarred the entire human population into fearing space marines.

on Terra especially, Space Marines are objects of fear and suspicion.




its so bad that Space Marine fleets are restricted in carrying lances. only Nova class frigates(escort) have lances and at great duress to the Imperial Navy.

it had been seriously considered to allow marines to have Transports and nothing more. only Rowboat was able to allow marines to keep active warships.

Heresy!

Current 40K figures put the ratio of fully trained, elite Guardsmen to Astartes as 20,000,000 to 1, give or take.

Astartes don't just take equipment and gene-seed, they need training, condition, psyker testing, taint searching, decades of work before they're even allowed out as a scout... it takes an immense investment from many branches of the Imperium and the Chapter. You rush it, it goes wrong.

aside from providing the equipment, Space Marines are trained completely by the chapter and in chapter facilities.

only the Ad Mech has any ties to a Space Marine chapter as the provider of equipment(and not even that is a 100% thing as some chapters have their own production facilities)



a Space Marine chapter is mostly self sufficient in its operation.

When you start mass producing a product there are much higher risks of flaws and defects. This is true in any situation.

I can't believe I'm doing this, but look at the Halo universe as an example of what happens when you mass produce a super soldier. Spartan II's were the best and once they started mass producing them the quality of each individual dropped.

Plus geneseed is finite.

I don't agree with the military coup idea. There are arguably more SM now than there was durring the HH. If SM became mass produced then there would just be more chapters. I think the biggest reason is lack of geneseed. You don't think below full strength chapters don't wanna refill their ranks, or worse, are afraid to? I highly doubt that.

Some thing i have realised the sp fluff is way better than they are in the actual game. In the fluff they don't take much casualties but in WH40K they lose lots. I'm just saying their fluff doesn't mach the gameplay

Sothas wrote:When you start mass producing a product there are much higher risks of flaws and defects. This is true in any situation.

The flaw would only be in the training and selection, not necessarily in the geneseed. There's no evidence that individual geenseeds are tested before they're put into an aspirant, and if you can watch and monitor a single aspirant it shouldn't be hard to watch and monitor more than one.

Sothas wrote:Plus geneseed is finite.

Only because it's artificially constrained as a finite resource.

One progenoid is capable of producing 2 more progenoids which can be removed after 10 years (approx. 20 years total time, counting each phase and assuming you can't replace a progenoid once it has been removed). In 500 years a dedicated progenoid production program could produce 33 million specimens, more than enough (even with a huge error rate) to supply all of the marines necessary.

There really isn't anything limiting geneseed except Terra.

Sothas wrote:I don't agree with the military coup idea. There are arguably more SM now than there was durring the HH. If SM became mass produced then there would just be more chapters. I think the biggest reason is lack of geneseed. You don't think below full strength chapters don't wanna refill their ranks, or worse, are afraid to? I highly doubt that.

It's not that low strength chapters don't want to or are afraid to refill their ranks, it's that the High Lords are nervious about a large number of SM being around.

Also, I can't find the number of SM during the Heresy, anyone have an idea? I know there are ~1 million in the current game era.

I would say the average would be about 10,000 or maybe a few thousand more per Legion, with obvious differences, Ultramarines and Word Bearers containing about 200,000 and 100,000 respectively. Times 18 would probably give about 2,000,000 with the discrepancies, so there's half now than before The Heresy. It's also more to do with Terra not liking large number of marines in a single organization, hence why 1000 is the strict guideline for a Chapter.

Sothas wrote:When you start mass producing a product there are much higher risks of flaws and defects. This is true in any situation.

I can't believe I'm doing this, but look at the Halo universe as an example of what happens when you mass produce a super soldier. Spartan II's were the best and once they started mass producing them the quality of each individual dropped.

Plus geneseed is finite.

I don't agree with the military coup idea. There are arguably more SM now than there was durring the HH. If SM became mass produced then there would just be more chapters. I think the biggest reason is lack of geneseed. You don't think below full strength chapters don't wanna refill their ranks, or worse, are afraid to? I highly doubt that.

Geneseed isn't finite, but rather is created very slowely.


each Space marine has 2 progenoid glands. each progenoid, when harvested, can make 1 space marine.


each marine can create 2 new space marines and over time the chapter can replenish its numbers and most chapters have excess reserves.

the problem arises when they take massive casualities and don't recover all the geneseed. they can't take in as many initiates as they could because they don't have enough geneseed to grow the implants.

so they are basically stuck with low numbers of marines for an extended period of time waiting for their numbers to slowely increase.

Slow gain = finite. As it was pointed out that low strength chapters have to wait some time before they can get enough geneseed to replace their numbers this creates a problem if they ever wanted to mass produce them. The idea here is mass producing them and that can't really happen in the short term. It could be possible over time to create enough marines that produce enough geneseed to start mass producing marines, but we know HLoT would never allow it.

Regardless of the reason, the outcome is the same. SM can't be mass produced


Automatically Appended Next Post:

iproxtaco wrote:I would say the average would be about 10,000 or maybe a few thousand more per Legion, with obvious differences, Ultramarines and Word Bearers containing about 200,000 and 100,000 respectively. Times 18 would probably give about 2,000,000 with the discrepancies, so there's half now than before The Heresy. It's also more to do with Terra not liking large number of marines in a single organization, hence why 1000 is the strict guideline for a Chapter.

I have no idea where you're getting your numbers from. Math gets us no where near that number.

30 known 2nd founding chapters.
9 original legions.
This equals 39 known chapters at second founding = 39,000 marines
We can generously double that for lost/unknown/dead chapters and for the hell of it make it an even 80,000.
Double that for the traitors = 160,000.

Even multiplying it by 5 for casualties lost durring the heresy (that's 4 out of 5 marines dead) you don't even equal the 1mil-1.2mil there are now. Please explain to me how you got to 2mil?

I think the Codex says a Chapter can only have 1000 Space Marines. And that if you mass produce I'm pretty sure they'd mutate,like Corax's Legion/Chapter

Vires` wrote:I think the Codex says a Chapter can only have 1000 Space Marines. And that if you mass produce I'm pretty sure they'd mutate,like Corax's Legion/Chapter

Not true they are told not too, but many chapter have more. The Space Wolves I think are at legion strength. Pretty Sure Ultras and Fists have more too. Didn't Corax use unorthodox methods of making progenoids

Sothas wrote:When you start mass producing a product there are much higher risks of flaws and defects. This is true in any situation.

Space Marines are already mass produced. Specifically, they are the mass production product of the Primarch Project. The Primarchs themselves were the Super Prototypes.

Space marines were mass produced before the crusade (by comparison to what they are now. I wouldn't call 1,000 years mass production). They are not anymore. 39,000-80,000 to ~1 mil in 10,000 years is not mass production. What I'm saying is that if they actually wanted to mass produce marines it would take time to build up the geneseed to even begin the process of mass production.

The only way they could produce marines faster is if they never sent Marines into combat situations. Marines are already being produced at the fastest possible rate the Imperium can manage.

Sothas wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:I would say the average would be about 10,000 or maybe a few thousand more per Legion, with obvious differences, Ultramarines and Word Bearers containing about 200,000 and 100,000 respectively. Times 18 would probably give about 2,000,000 with the discrepancies, so there's half now than before The Heresy. It's also more to do with Terra not liking large number of marines in a single organization, hence why 1000 is the strict guideline for a Chapter.

I have no idea where you're getting your numbers from. Math gets us no where near that number.

30 known 2nd founding chapters.
9 original legions.
This equals 39 known chapters at second founding = 39,000 marines
We can generously double that for lost/unknown/dead chapters and for the hell of it make it an even 80,000.
Double that for the traitors = 160,000.

Even multiplying it by 5 for casualties lost durring the heresy (that's 4 out of 5 marines dead) you don't even equal the 1mil-1.2mil there are now. Please explain to me how you got to 2mil?

160,000? Unfortunately your math is also deeply flawed, considering there were 100,000 in the Word Bearers alone, and even more than that in The Ultramarine's, meaning there's more than 200,000 in those two Legions alone. I interpreted the question as how many Space Marines were there in before the Heresy actually started. As I said, there were 10,000 roughly in each Legion, known to be around 13,000 in the Space Wolves. So, 18 times 10,000 equals 180,000 which was where I went so very wrong. So, add 90,000 for The Word Bearers. Now, numbers for the Ultramarines are sketchy, some say 250,000, some say otherwise. In truth, the base numbers for the Legions are likewise sketchy, some say they were all in the hundreds of thousands, some other sources say they were nearer 10,000. So, we can get three numbers from this.
Firstly, 180,000 (18 times 10,000) add 90,000 for the Word Bearers, and 240,000 for the ultramarines, which gives us 510,000
Secondly, 1,800,000 (18 times 100,000) add 140,000 for the ultramarines, gives us 1,940,000
Thirdly, 180,000 (18 times 10,000) add say 5,000 for the Word Bearers as they were known for being a larger chapter, 13,000 for the ultramarines which gives 198,000

All are drastically different, I prefer to think in the millions, as having only a few hundred thousand in total just seems a little low, for the current numbers of Astartes. The High Lords, fearful of another Heresy, probably wouldn't want to actually increase the numbers of Astartes by so many either.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:The Sisters of Battle fulfill the role of sub-par mass produced Space Marines quite well. Their undying loyalty is also preferable to the bold independance common among Space Marine Chapters.

So yes, they could create a mass production of Space Marines, but it's easier to field Sisters wearing power armor and sporting bolters than it is to use tons of geneseed.

Only problem with that idea is the 5th edition warhammer 40,000 rulebook.

Yes, Matt Ward really did write a line in there that says "there are only 4000 sisters of battle in the entire galaxy".

Yet another piece of established background that the idiot has casually smashed into the dirt.

iproxtaco wrote:

Double that for the traitors = 160,000.

Even multiplying it by 5 for casualties lost durring the heresy (that's 4 out of 5 marines dead) you don't even equal the 1mil-1.2mil there are now. Please explain to me how you got to 2mil?

160,000? Unfortunately your math is also deeply flawed,

True enough, but we were both calculating different numbers. I was calculating the total based on the numbers given for the Legions, he was using the numbers of the successors, which is why we both came to different numbers.

DarknessEternal wrote:
160,000? Unfortunately your math is also deeply flawed.

that's second founding numbers plus traitors. How's it flawed? It is a rough estimate and I'm not saying it's 100% correct, but logically it's a sound number. Even at an estimated 10,000 full strength legions (which they were not at after the HH), the Chaos Legions would only number 80,000 which would only increase to 180,000 with the Word Bearers making it a total of 260,000 total marines. Still not far off of what I got originally compared to what there is now.

No doubt that my numbers were a very rough estimate, and I didn't forget about the larger legions, they were kinda thrown in with the (admitedly completely out of my ) 4/5 dead number. Even then that comes to a total of 800,000 with my figures given. That number was just to prove a point that it is actually very hard to get anywhere near 2 mil based on actually provided evidence and not "some say this."

I've never ever heard any theory about 100,000 per legion, but I do know about the 10,000 per legion.

Also there's nothing saying that the HLoT are limiting the number of marines total, only the number per single orginization. It doesn't matter if there are a billion SM as long as there's only 1000 per chapter they're not going to have the orignization that existed in the HH. The larger the numbers and more spread out, the harder to organize. On top of that, if one fatal mutation hits a chapter then that mutation is not going to spread to other chapters thus elimitating events similar to the 1ksons.

When "large" heresy takes place among the astartes, it's still usually not more that 4 chapters. Take the Badab War as an example.

GW likes to instill bigger than life numbers into our heads even though what they say 9/10 makes no logical sense. I'm sure giving small numbers for SM pre and just post-heresy can throw people off, but it's what's there.

Sothas wrote:Also there's nothing saying that the HLoT are limiting the number of marines total, only the number per single orginization. It doesn't matter if there are a billion SM as long as there's only 1000 per chapter they're not going to have the orignization that existed in the HH. The larger the numbers and more spread out, the harder to organize. On top of that, if one fatal mutation hits a chapter then that mutation is not going to spread to other chapters thus elimitating events similar to the 1ksons.

Sure they are limiting the number of marines total. If they wanted to start manufacturing SM, they could do so and have a virtually unlimited number of SM within a very short (for 40k at least) period of time. Grab a few particularly stable gene seeds (GK for example) and farm them for a thousand years and you'll have more SM than you would know what to do with.

Then again...if you don't have something for all of the SM to do, they might get antsy and wonder why they're letting the HLoT push them around.

This is why I've never understood the HH & Great Crusade. If the number of guardsmen was anywhere near the number at the end of the 41st millenium (which I'd guess to be around 10 trillion), then a million marines shouldn't have been any threat whatsoever if they turned traitor. It's a pathetically small number, and unless the IoM rolled down a red carpet and said "Come to Terra for the party y'all!", they should have been crushed by the Imperial Army. 1,000,000 guys-no matter how powerful-don't have the manpower to take over a few star systems, let alone march down to the most heavily fortified planet in the galaxy and almost take it.

In fact, that's a massive flaw in all GW fluff.

Unless the Imperial Army was tiny and Terra wasn't fortified at the time, or half the Guardsmen turned traitor as well. In which case ignore this post.

It wasn't just the Legions that went traitor, fully half the admech titan legions went traitor, as did countless guard regiments. It was the fact that the Legions had absolute space dominance as the fleet for a single legion was massive, so after the HH they fleet for the remaining loyalists was given over to the Imperial Navy, so that no individuals could hold that much power ever again.

winnertakesall wrote:It wasn't just the Legions that went traitor, fully half the admech titan legions went traitor, as did countless guard regiments. It was the fact that the Legions had absolute space dominance as the fleet for a single legion was massive, so after the HH they fleet for the remaining loyalists was given over to the Imperial Navy, so that no individuals could hold that much power ever again.

Ah, I see. Still, the traitor Astartes were easily the smallest threat here.

TrollPie wrote:
Ah, I see. Still, the traitor Astartes were easily the smallest threat here.

No, they were the greatest threat. They were in command.

TrollPie wrote:This is why I've never understood the HH & Great Crusade. If the number of guardsmen was anywhere near the number at the end of the 41st millenium (which I'd guess to be around 10 trillion), then a million marines shouldn't have been any threat whatsoever if they turned traitor. It's a pathetically small number, and unless the IoM rolled down a red carpet and said "Come to Terra for the party y'all!", they should have been crushed by the Imperial Army. 1,000,000 guys-no matter how powerful-don't have the manpower to take over a few star systems, let alone march down to the most heavily fortified planet in the galaxy and almost take it.

In fact, that's a massive flaw in all GW fluff.

Unless the Imperial Army was tiny and Terra wasn't fortified at the time, or half the Guardsmen turned traitor as well. In which case ignore this post.

Again, its the fleet. The bio apes shouting HURR! and waiving pointy sticks are irrelevant. Its all the big ships that come with them that matters.

IRC thats what the Raven Guard Primarch did. safe to say it didn't go well, made lots of mutants that had to be put down and he ended up killing himself



BTW sorry if this has been mentioned before i kinda had to say it before it left my head by reading all 3 pages

the post heresy chapter number isn't going to give you the exact number of marines as there were massive casualities taken.


the Salamanders were so decimated they didn't even create successor chapters at the 2nd founding.




and the 1 thousand space marines per chapter doesnt include support personel that arn't part of any Company. it doesn't include Techmarines, Librarians, Chaplains, Honor Guard, Armory staff(junior Techmarines and vehicle crew), or the Fleet(which will be Space Marine officers who will form a squad in the event of a boarding action)

It was estimated in another thread that a chapter could actually have anywhere between 1200 and 1500 marines including these support personell.



so there could actually be as many as 1.5 million space marines at any one time.

Grey Templar wrote:the post heresy chapter number isn't going to give you the exact number of marines as there were massive casualities taken.

Which he accounted for with the astronomical assumption that the Astartes took 80% losses, which they certainly didn't. His calculations were flawed by other means, which he's already responded to.

No need to be a captain-know-it-all when the thing you're objecting to was already covered.

Void__Dragon wrote:Because it is so much cheaper to field a million cannon fodder with more basic than it is to make one space marine while equipping him with really good equipment?

Space Marines = cannon
Imperial guard = cannon fodder...

having 500 fully trained soldiers is the same as 1000 half trained but I'd rather go with the 500 fully trained soldiers.

Nightfall wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:Because it is so much cheaper to field a million cannon fodder with more basic than it is to make one space marine while equipping him with really good equipment?

Space Marines = cannon
Imperial guard = cannon fodder...

having 500 fully trained soldiers is the same as 1000 half trained but I'd rather go with the 500 fully trained soldiers.

Wait didn't the Russians prove its better to have the half trained guys in the great Lowenbrau Stolinchnoya World Domination Bowl?
After all, what if the half trained guys are driving tanks?


Quantity has a quality all its own...

Frazzled wrote:

Nightfall wrote:
having 500 fully trained soldiers is the same as 1000 half trained but I'd rather go with the 500 fully trained soldiers.

Wait didn't the Russians prove its better to have the half trained guys in the great Lowenbrau Stolinchnoya World Domination Bowl?

Well, since war usually comes down to logistics of supply, having fewer, better guys is usually the better idea. However, the Russians also showed you didn't really need to supply your human wave either.

Frazzled wrote:

TrollPie wrote:This is why I've never understood the HH & Great Crusade. If the number of guardsmen was anywhere near the number at the end of the 41st millenium (which I'd guess to be around 10 trillion), then a million marines shouldn't have been any threat whatsoever if they turned traitor. It's a pathetically small number, and unless the IoM rolled down a red carpet and said "Come to Terra for the party y'all!", they should have been crushed by the Imperial Army. 1,000,000 guys-no matter how powerful-don't have the manpower to take over a few star systems, let alone march down to the most heavily fortified planet in the galaxy and almost take it.

In fact, that's a massive flaw in all GW fluff.

Unless the Imperial Army was tiny and Terra wasn't fortified at the time, or half the Guardsmen turned traitor as well. In which case ignore this post.

Again, its the fleet. The bio apes shouting HURR! and waiving pointy sticks are irrelevant. Its all the big ships that come with them that matters.

No.
And no flaw, as half of the imperial military assets turned, thus fleet, ground forces, etc..

80% loss was an extreme number I through out to help people understand the amount of numbers required for it all. Never did I say that's how many were killed. If they had 2 mil astartes that means they would have to have taken 90%+ losses durring the HH. That is a crazy number. CRAZY!

scarletsquig wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:The Sisters of Battle fulfill the role of sub-par mass produced Space Marines quite well. Their undying loyalty is also preferable to the bold independance common among Space Marine Chapters.

So yes, they could create a mass production of Space Marines, but it's easier to field Sisters wearing power armor and sporting bolters than it is to use tons of geneseed.

Only problem with that idea is the 5th edition warhammer 40,000 rulebook.

Yes, Matt Ward really did write a line in there that says "there are only 4000 sisters of battle in the entire galaxy".

Yet another piece of established background that the idiot has casually smashed into the dirt.

I think before whining about Ward, you need to actually read the piece in question.

Page 120:
"There are three major Orders of Adepta Sororitas, the fighting strength of each numbering several thousand warriors, as well as many lesser sisterhoods comprised of around a hundred or so Battle Sisters."

So depending on the numbers("several thousand each" means more than 1000, but could be anything from 2000 to 10,000 per the "three major Orders", and with "many lesser sisterhoods[remember, there's NO SET NUMBER of these, since the 'lesser sisterhoods' are meant to represent whatever order the playerbase wants to design] comprised of a hundred or so Battle Sisters") it could be 4000 or 48k.

Have you ever heard of the Horus Hersey?

All of you are hitting very good points, but lets wrap it together shall we?

To make a Space Marine, you need at the least, 8 years of training and implanting to fully produce an Angel of Death. This alone produces a problem for mass production. Such a long period of time to train a Marine leads to lots of problems like properly reinforcing mass produced ranks. Alternatives can be to skip the implants or substitute them. But then they wouldn't really be Space Marines would they?

The pre-heresy Legions were somewhat mass produced, but the biggest and most dangerous flaw with this was geneseed corruption, which left many in the ranks of Space Marines susceptible to Chaos. Not to mention a whole bunch of other reasons why so few Space Marines are produced for the next ten thousand years was because training grew more intensive, routing out even the weak ones that ARE strong enough to become Space Marines, taking only the best of the best and purest of the pure. This was probably written and intended by the Codex Astartes. Its the only reason I can think of why it's so hard to rebuild a Chapters numbers when ten thousand years ago, legions were reinforced daily.

Power Armour is mainly produced by the Adeptus Mechanicus and chapter artificers...who are probably from the Adeptus Mechanicus anyway. Judging from mixed suits of armour as well as low productivity of even their latest patterns, it can be gleaned that Space Marine power armour is extremely difficult and/or time consuming to produce. Alternatives can be to biuld power armour used by the Adepta Sororitas or fall back to the barest essentials when making Space Marine armour...which is an extremely dangerous option considering the missions assigned to an Adeptus Astartes.

And last of all, for cost efficiency, you can probably arm 10000 guardsmen for the price of training a Space Marine. For the cost of a "Half-Marine," you can probably arm 5000 guardsmen and biuld a bunch of chimeras.

To succeed at mass producing Space Marines, you'll have to find ways to overcome all these obstacles, which i judge would be no easy feat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

biccat wrote:Regarding the risk of Chaos, the impression I get from the HH books is that the Marines who turned didn't do so due to a flaw in their gene-seed, but rather due to some sort of mental or social corruption by Chaos. The continued existence of marines going rogue seems to confirm that the purity of the geneseed isn't the controlling issue.

However, it might be true that there are certain personalities that are more susceptable to turning to Chaos. Perhaps as much as 50% (which would explain the heresy). Therefore, the selection process is probably more about determining those susceptable to the taint of Chaos than providing "the best" soldiers.

Finally, given that the IoM was able to produce and equip a number of marines at short notice (foundings, Legions), it seems that industrial capacity isn't that much of an issue (given a galaxy-wide empire, it shouldn't be hard to find spare production), and the threat of Chaos appears to be an overstated concern.

The Emperor created both the primarchs and space marines to be immune to disease, utterly and fanatically devoted to a cause they believe in and to be pure of corruption. Because of the flaws in primarch DNA when they were scattered by the warp, the marines using primarch geneseed inherited the flaws, that, and mass production also mutated some of the geneseeds. This flaw in geneseed DNA allowed chaos to take hold of them. Just wanted to inform you of this. All the other stuff you said is pretty much on par.

LumenPraebeo wrote:All of you are hitting very good points, but lets wrap it together shall we?

Your summary forgot to mention that Space Marines are already being produced as fast as the Imperium and Astartes themselves can manage. If they could make more faster, they'd be doing it.

DarknessEternal wrote: Your summary forgot to mention that Space Marines are already being produced as fast as the Imperium and Astartes themselves can manage. If they could make more faster, they'd be doing it.

Well, wouldn't that be implied? In a galactic empire being assailed by all sides and festering with mutation and corruption, 8 years is pretty darn long to create a Space Marine, any longer than 10 for every singe recruit they take and it would be danger bordering on extinction of a chapter should any major opponent decide the sector is ripe for conquest

LumenPraebeo wrote:the marines using primarch geneseed inherited the flaws, that, and mass production also mutated some of the geneseeds.

I didn't think that marines used geneseed from their primarch, but instead were simply "assigned" to their Primarch when he was found. The geneseed for new marines was simply pulled from the rank and file.

However, the "space magic" of 40k tends to confuse things. For example, Magnus was able to change the geneseed of his legion simply by making a deal with Tzeentch. And the legions tended to take on attributes of their Primarch only after he was found and reunited with them. This suggests that "geneseed" is more than simply genetics.

It's definitely the genetic material from their Primarch.
I don't know where the second part has come from. Is there anything to suggest this? As The Thousand Sons had many psykers within their ranks before reuniting with Magnus.

iproxtaco wrote:It's definitely the genetic material from their Primarch.

Their geneseed was obviously based on their Primarch, but was there really any difference between pre-Primarch geneseed and post-Primarch geneseed? I didn't think that was ever mentioned.

iproxtaco wrote:I don't know where the second part has come from. Is there anything to suggest this? As The Thousand Sons had many psykers within their ranks before reuniting with Magnus.

Legions like the World Eaters and Death Guard didn't take on their characteristic styles and appearance until after reunited with their Primarchs. The Alpha Legion is a particularly good example of this.

It's not, although I don't see why there should be too much confusion. When the Primarchs were scattered, The Emperor used their genetic blue-prints to mass-produce the Astartes, implying that there's no difference.

Genetic mutations are different from their style of warfare. The Legions were like they were because of the planet their Primarch grew up on, so obviously they wont display that aspect until they reunite with their progenitor. I thought you may have meant genetic characteristics like elongated canines for the Space Wolves or height for the Thousand Sons, which I haven't read anything to suggest they weren't modified like this before the Legions met the Primarchs.

iproxtaco wrote:It's not, although I don't see why there should be too much confusion. When the Primarchs were scattered, The Emperor used their genetic blue-prints to mass-produce the Astartes, implying that there's no difference.

Agreed. But if the warp changed the Primarch's geneseed, then marines created from sources before and after the Primarch was rediscovered should be different. However, nothing suggests that either:
1) the Emperor took a new "sample" from the Primarchs after they were reunited; or
2) there is any difference (in geneseed) between the pre- and post-Primarch marines in any legion.

So if the warp did modify the geneseed when the primarchs were scattered, the modification wasn't of the primarch's geneseed, but of the geneseed of the legion as a whole. Requiring space magic.

iproxtaco wrote:Genetic mutations are different from their style of warfare. The Legions were like they were because of the planet their Primarch grew up on, so obviously they wont display that aspect until they reunite with their progenitor. I thought you may have meant genetic characteristics like elongated canines for the Space Wolves or height for the Thousand Sons, which I haven't read anything to suggest they weren't modified like this before the Legions met the Primarchs.

Yes, but we're told that the World Eaters became more ferocious after meeting up with Angron. This is more than different actions, but a change to their geneseed-induced rage.

Anyway, I thought I remembered something in the HH books (probably Legion) explaining how some marines took on the appearance of their Primarch after being reunited with him. I could be misremembering, however.

biccat wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:It's definitely the genetic material from their Primarch.

Their geneseed was obviously based on their Primarch, but was there really any difference between pre-Primarch geneseed and post-Primarch geneseed? I didn't think that was ever mentioned.

Reading through the Horus Heresy, have you noticed that many if not all of the Adeptus Astartes who fought before reuniting with their primarchs did not turn traitor? And if you haven't read the books, you should. They're totally awesome.

The World Eaters became like that because Angron had them lobotomized in secret to induce their rage fits during battle.

LumenPraebeo wrote:

biccat wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:It's definitely the genetic material from their Primarch.

Their geneseed was obviously based on their Primarch, but was there really any difference between pre-Primarch geneseed and post-Primarch geneseed? I didn't think that was ever mentioned.

Reading through the Horus Heresy, have you noticed that many if not all of the Adeptus Astartes who fought before reuniting with their primarchs did not turn traitor? And if you haven't read the books, you should. They're totally awesome.

I didn't get that from the books at all. In fact, very few of marines from the traitor legions turned. One of the traitor legions (World Bearers or Luna wolves maybe?) had one side turn to chaos, but only because the legion had been split by their Primarch. The split had been based on when the marines joined, but it wasn't suggested that there were any differences in their geneseed.

No, I'm not referring to the Dark Angels.

scarletsquig wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:The Sisters of Battle fulfill the role of sub-par mass produced Space Marines quite well. Their undying loyalty is also preferable to the bold independance common among Space Marine Chapters.

So yes, they could create a mass production of Space Marines, but it's easier to field Sisters wearing power armor and sporting bolters than it is to use tons of geneseed.

Only problem with that idea is the 5th edition warhammer 40,000 rulebook.

Yes, Matt Ward really did write a line in there that says "there are only 4000 sisters of battle in the entire galaxy".

Yet another piece of established background that the idiot has casually smashed into the dirt.

Wow, I can't believe they went that route! That doesn't even fit into their recruiting pools... So I guess the SoB are now almost as rare as GKs?

No, because that's not what it says in the passage, as Kanluwen has clarified.

iproxtaco wrote:No, because that's not what it says in the passage, as Kanluwen has clarified.

Page 120, 5th edition rulebook, The Sisters of Battle:

There are three major Orders of the Adeptus Sororitas, the fighting strength of each numbering several thousand warriors, as well as many lesser sisterhoods comprised of around a hundred or so Battle Sisters.

Rough numbers, but that still means they only number somewhere between 5000 to 20,000 Battle Sisters. That's 50 times less than the Astartes, and they're already ridiculously rare.

EDIT: Seems Kanluwen ninja'd me with that quote by a long time...
Still, he forgot to mention 1,000,000 SoB wouldn't do much in the long run, let alone 20,000.

In extended war zones they sort of DO mass produce space marines. They have to keep their numbers up somehow, so they produce more to cover the losses of the chapter. After all, 1000 guys, no matter how tough they are, don't last long when Titans are blowing them to bits.

TrollPie wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:No, because that's not what it says in the passage, as Kanluwen has clarified.

Page 120, 5th edition rulebook, The Sisters of Battle:

There are three major Orders of the Adeptus Sororitas, the fighting strength of each numbering several thousand warriors, as well as many lesser sisterhoods comprised of around a hundred or so Battle Sisters.

Rough numbers, but that still means they only number somewhere between 5000 to 20,000 Battle Sisters. That's 50 times less than the Astartes, and they're already ridiculously rare.

EDIT: Seems Kanluwen ninja'd me with that quote by a long time...
Still, he forgot to mention 1,000,000 SoB wouldn't do much in the long run, let alone 20,000.

Of course they wouldn't do much in the long run. Sororitas are generally restricted to operating on worlds where the Imperium is already present, and are commonly operating in a defensive role.

However, much like the Astartes, the symbolism of the Sororitas can have a huge impact upon the morale of defending forces. What better way to reaffirm faith in the Imperium than to witness the purifying vengeance of the Sororitas fall upon the invader?

Dunno if anyone has even said this yet but its not even geneseed that makes a human a spacemarine. geneseed merely regulates and controls all the other implants, sure its the most important bit but without the others it doesnt do very much at all. So what would be the use of implanting a bunch of cadian youths with it?

The Iron Warriors did it...

Ugly Green Trog wrote:Dunno if anyone has even said this yet but its not even geneseed that makes a human a spacemarine. geneseed merely regulates and controls all the other implants, sure its the most important bit but without the others it doesnt do very much at all. So what would be the use of implanting a bunch of cadian youths with it?

Geneseed isn't implanted. It's a blueprint grown inside the progenoid gland. It is then harvested to grow another set of organs.

DeadlySquirrel wrote:The Iron Warriors did it...

No, they didn't.

They used sorcery to essentially create 'cloned' progenoid glands that they implanted into people to harvest gene-seed from.

Wow, I notice that dakka threads go off topic alot. How did we go from thinking of ways to mass produce space marines (or rather reasons why it can't be done) to talking about geneseeds and the fanatical killer chicks?

biccat wrote:

LumenPraebeo wrote:

biccat wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:It's definitely the genetic material from their Primarch.

Their geneseed was obviously based on their Primarch, but was there really any difference between pre-Primarch geneseed and post-Primarch geneseed? I didn't think that was ever mentioned.

Reading through the Horus Heresy, have you noticed that many if not all of the Adeptus Astartes who fought before reuniting with their primarchs did not turn traitor? And if you haven't read the books, you should. They're totally awesome.

I didn't get that from the books at all. In fact, very few of marines from the traitor legions turned. One of the traitor legions (World Bearers or Luna wolves maybe?) had one side turn to chaos, but only because the legion had been split by their Primarch. The split had been based on when the marines joined, but it wasn't suggested that there were any differences in their geneseed.

No, I'm not referring to the Dark Angels.

the reason for this was that all the marines Pre-primarch had been born on Terra and had fought under the Emperor's banner.

their loyality was to the Emperor first and formost because they were more attached to him and his personality.


once the Primarchs came along, the newer recruits attached to their Primarch.

the DAs were a little different. those who betrayed the Imperium didn't follow their primarch and were mostly newer recruits and old Caliban knights following Lucifer. Caliban went out for itself. they said "Screw Johnson, Screw the Emperor, we want to do our own little thing here"

LumenPraebeo wrote:Wow, I notice that dakka threads go off topic alot. How did we go from thinking of ways to mass produce space marines (or rather reasons why it can't be done) to talking about geneseeds and the fanatical killer chicks?

Uh, because geneseed is central to the production of Astartes and the Sororitas are the closest thing to 'mass produced Astartes'(fairly unaugmented humans with powered armor and bolters) and thus central to the discussion?

Not so off-topic then, now is it?

Not entirely true. Loken and Torggadon, both natives of Cthonia, both loyalists. Time of inception to the Legion has a large effect, but it isn't the only reason. Another thing, it's Luther, not Lucifer.

Wasn't Loken Terran?

Nope, he was from Cthonia. As said, Templar has a valid point, but the loyalists weren't exclusively from Terra.

I think that, generally, Terrans were more Loyal than non-Terrans. Also all Legions except the Alpha Legion can also be split into Pre-Primarch and Post-Primarch Marines. I think The Marines that were Pri-Primarch (where part of their Legion before their Primarch) were more loyal too. Obviously these are just sweeping generalizations, many, many exceptions exist.

I agree. Garro is the epitome of this. Terran first, Barbarun second. The Emperor over Mortarion, part of The Dusk Raiders long before their transformation into the Death Guard.