ok so i am really thinking about starting Chaos Space Marines, an i am looking into getting a starting army that looks something like this:

HQ: Daemon Prince
1 Daemon Prince: Wings + Mark of Nurgle + Warptime

Troops: Plague Marines
6 Plague Marines: Personal Icon + Meltagun x2
1 Plague Championower Fist + Combi-flamer
1 Rhino,

Troops: Plague Marines
6 Plague Marines: Personal Icon + Meltagun x2
1 Plague Championower Fist + Combi-flamer
1 Rhino,

Troops: Plague Marines
6 Plague Marines: Personal Icon + Meltagun x2
1 Plague Championower Fist + Combi-flamer
1 Rhino,

Heavy Support: Vindicator

Heavy Support: Vindicator

The list is about 1509 points i gotta see where i can drop some points or i will prolly just drop a vindicator then add another squad of PM, any ideas?

PM's are a great choice for any chaos army. They form the bulk of my army, supported by berzerkers. You cant go wrong with either of those units, although i wuold suggest adding some obliterators, possibly by dropping a vindicator

PM's aren't a bad idea but I also suggest looking into getting obliterators. Just played them for the first time two days ago and they wrecked my bro's heavy, transpo, and fast attack choices.

def pick up some blits and if you cant buy em get random weapons and some termies and gs and make some thats what i did. Zerkers are a good unit. and dont for get the rhinos always have rhinos.

Don't play chaos marines. Wait for the next codex and see if it's better than the current one.

Well as far as i have seen they are not going to be for a long time, and i am not really looking for the "dont play them" i am looking for advice on improving the list.

I would leave the Vindicators despite them having problems, though I am a fan of them TBH. They do best moving up adding armour saturation and target threats to the opponent. I would drop those power fists from the Plague Marines because they'll die in combat over time while the fist won't kill much, I would invest the points from the champions then into a unit of Havocs giving a little bit of long range fire power.

when you say leave do you mean dont use them or keep them in the list? i am slightly slow, and im guessing havocs are devestators?

Leave them in the list. And yes Havocs are CSM Devs.

vindis are nice if you have em demonically possessed worth the 20 pts

well i can take out the power fists and champions then use the extra points for the Havocs then demonic possession if i have the extra points

I would consider changing your DP to one with MoT and Lash considering every unit you have has a template weapon. Of course if youre going for a Nurgle themed army then disregard this.

I would NOT drop the PF from the Plague Marines. They have such amazing survivability in close combat that you're gonna rack up PF kills like nobody's business.

If you're gonna take Vindicators, take them with Daemonic Possession.

I'd use a Lash Prince if you're doing Vindis. If you're set on using a Nurgle prince, I'd drop the Vindicators for Oblits.

haha, yea thanks but i wanted a Nurgle theme, plain and simple because i love the model. but would anyone suggest perhaps using a defiler? or is the vindicator better?

I like Defilers. Possessed Vindicators can be better, but without Oblits, you have no ranged firepower. And with no Lash, you're not gonna get as much use from the Vindis. I'd add in Obliterators for sure.

Obliterators are bestest. I think your list looks good but I would definitely switch out the vindicators and try to fit in 4 oblits instead. They're glorious IMO. My friends always rage when I play six of them in my 2k list.

Ok so a different list would consist of this:

HQ: Daemon Prince
1 Daemon Prince: Wings + Mark of Nurgle + Warptime

Troops: Plague Marines
6 Plague Marines: Personal Icon + Meltagun x2
1 Plague Championower Fist + Combi-flamer
1 Rhino,

Troops: Plague Marines
6 Plague Marines: Personal Icon + Meltagun x2
1 Plague Championower Fist + Combi-flamer
1 Rhino,

Troops: Plague Marines
6 Plague Marines: Personal Icon + Meltagun x2
1 Plague Championower Fist + Combi-flamer
1 Rhino,

Heavy Support: 2x Obliterators

Heavy Support: 2x Obliterators

I decided to keep the PF only because wtwlf123 is right in the fact that these Marines are quiet tough in CC I would love to use a Vindicator but i still want the List to put up an amazing fight perhaps if i decide to bump up to 2k points i will add in one. now i dont know if the list about is below 1500, so i will redo the points when i get home, but it should be close

Also would anyone have any advise on adding wings to the nurgle demon prince? looks and just the best way to do it?

Drop the Personal Icons from the PM squads. You don't need them at all.

Please explain, i added them because i saw a ton of people using them, and they direct something, sorry noob questions i know, can talk about Tau all day but Chaos forget about it.

Hmm, I don't have my codex with me either but I think it is around 1273.

HQ: 175
Troops: 266 x 3 = 798
HS: 300

Total: 1273

This is by memory but I can't be too far off. Leaves a lot of room for many a options.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Personal icons assist in deepstriking, so if you're going to DS those oblits in, then they may very well be helpful.

GreyTauKnight wrote:Please explain, i added them because i saw a ton of people using them, and they direct something, sorry noob questions i know, can talk about Tau all day but Chaos forget about it.

What are you directing with them? People should only be using them to guide Termicide units onto the table.

Plague MArines are a great starting choice for Chaos. They are very effective at holding objectives and keeping the enemy at bay because they dont die much. The Daemon prince is also a great unit to use as well. As for the vindys I wouldn't take them though. They really aren't too good without daeomonic possession. I'd substitute either Obliterators or maybe even Defilers in there.

ahh, very well so only use them if i am deep striking, and i would assume that is not something i should do?

Well personally I think it's worth the 15 points to give one to each of your 3 squads, but you may or may not make use of them. I go games without using them and I go games where I use them entirely. Depends on your style of play or perhaps the mission.

GreyTauKnight wrote:ahh, very well so only use them if i am deep striking, and i would assume that is not something i should do?

No actually I wouldnt use them deep striking for the sole purpose in this list you are going to need them for Anti-Tank. I would start them out on the table like in terrain somewhere and wreak havoc on Tanks. If you can prevent the enemy from moving them then you can obliterate the infantry with plasma cannons. Keep in mind its all about target priority with Oblits. I just dont think it would be wise to deep strike them in this list considering your a little low on anti-tank.

GreyTauKnight wrote:ahh, very well so only use them if i am deep striking, and i would assume that is not something i should do?

Correct. Maximize the total Firepower output from those Oblits. They should start on the board, and be shooting every turn. There's nothing else you CAN deepstrike w/ Icon guides, so there's no reason to pay the points for them.

no i really wanna get home so i can look at the actual point values and get a corrected list up

DP - 175
Plague Marines - 266
Plague Marines - 266
Plague Marines - 266
Oblits x2 - 150
Oblits x2 - 150

= 1,273

so i have another 227 points any suggestions?

A 2nd Winged Daemon Prince of Nurgle and combi-weapons for your Rhinos.

meltas or plasma?

I'd put combi Flamers on the rhinos, and put combi-meltas in the squads.

I'd also change one of the PM loadouts to PF + Plasma Gun + Plasma Gun. Same points, but Plasma is great on PMs.

The other two I'd leave as PF + Melta + Melta + Combi-Melta.

wtwlf123 wrote:A 2nd Winged Daemon Prince of Nurgle and combi-weapons for your Rhinos.

Yep thats perfect. Maybe some Havoc Launchers on the Rhinos if possible as well.

Second Daemon Prince concurred upon.

HOME!!! New list from suggestions:

HQ: Daemon Prince
1 Daemon Prince Wings + Mark of Nurgle + Warptime

HQ: Daemon Prince
1 Daemon Prince Wings + Mark of Nurgle + Warptime

Troops: Plague Marines
6 Plague Marines + Meltagun x2
1 Plague Champion Power Fist, Combi-flamer
1 Rhino + Combi-flamer

Troops: Plague Marines
6 Plague Marines + Meltagun x2
1 Plague Champion Power Fist, Combi-flamer
1 Rhino + Combi-flamer

Troops: Plague Marines
6 Plague Marines + Meltagun x2
1 Plague Champion Power Fist, Combi-flamer
1 Rhino + Combi-flamer

Heavy Support:
2 Obliterators

Heavy Support:
2 Obliterators

I had to make the champions combi meltas instead of a plasma gun to fit the 1500pts, the list is 1498, i am quite happy with it unless there is something others see that i can improve upon, thanks to those who have helped so far.

Nope. Quality list.

That's almost identical to my 1500 Nurgle list. I'd run combi-meltas instead of combi-flamers on the Champs though, and I'd run one squad as double plasma w/ no combi-weapon. It's the same number of points and it makes for a better "home objective camp" when you've got the double plasma backing them up.

I think thats a pretty solid list though overall at 1500 points. Should be tought to kill

Always run your daemon princes in pairs. The MoN warptime package is nice, just don't forget to roll it every turn like I do! Oblits are very nice, as are AC/LC preds if you're looking for more mech. The meltas are a must on the plagues as are the PF, so you got that right, but unless you're planning on deep striking the oblits, I'd drop the icons. As for adding berzerkers, it's really up to you. I don't run them in my lists very often.

wtwlf123 wrote:That's almost identical to my 1500 Nurgle list. I'd run combi-meltas instead of combi-flamers on the Champs though, and I'd run one squad as double plasma w/ no combi-weapon. It's the same number of points and it makes for a better "home objective camp" when you've got the double plasma backing them up.

I agree. seems like a good list over all nice and tough

i like it alot!! very well put together, tough, lots of threats! about as good as it gets for chaos!

Looks solid. Are you going for a pure Nurgle theme? I think 1 unit of berserkers could be nice. What I did was buy the battleforce, and I converted the regular space marines by plaguing them up by adding zombie heads, green stuff and guitar strings. Used the possessed bitz for things like powerfists. I then added 2 daemon princes, 2 rhinos and a box of termies which I converted with IG bitz to Oblits. Fairly cheap $250-$300ish force.

Nope it's not a perfect list. Those Champions are costing waaay too much points in fact those Champions are costing 73 points each! and for what a power fist and combi flamer! bah! You drop all of those you net 219 points back which pays for another unit of Plague Marines identical to the others, and lets face if you're low on troop numbers. Then it would be the perfect list.

I think the PF Champs are a must on PM squads. They have good survivability, but no killing power without one. Getting Tarpitted by a single MC or Walker is a bigger waste of your points than a Champ w/ PF.

Why are they a must? They cost 73 points and what do they add to the squad, a power fist? If a unit gets tarpited by a monstrous creature or walker the unit will be mostly dead before the first strikes and against a monstrous creature it will only do X amount of the wounds, the monstrous creature will live and finish them off next round. Why also you letting walkers into assault for? A power fist is not a defensive weapon, it's a offensive and against vehicles mostly where intiative doesn't matter. Plague Marines should be shooting and tarpiting a unit with T5 FnP a walker or monstrous creature won't care about that stuff anyway.

I've had nothing but success with them in combat. They're so good against MEQ. Especially MEQ with other power fists. The squad survives long enough in combat that you can really capitalize on having that PF in there. And there's so many more things you can comfortably attack if you have one in there. I've played a ton of games with and without PF Champs, and I much prefer their performance when they're in there.

Well just because you've had success doesn't mean they actually work well over all. A Champion has 2 attacks base so agaisnt MEQ you hit once and wound once, awesome you've just killed a Marine for 73 points. There's 6 Plague Marines in these units (no need to be 6 anyway) and probably lost 1-2 of these. I wouldn't call that success so far. Survival of the squad thanks to the power fist is marginal and not worth 73 points.

If you prefer them then cool, but they're not worth the points and won't do a fat lot against anything. The squad will be either dead or seriously managled if a power fist is in that unit. Anything attacking Plague Marines would be a swarm with crap load of attacks of power weaps to get over the feel no pain.

I dunno i thik its more of a personal preferance, i have ran PMs with out a PF and with a PF i prefer it with but then again i also use my PMs defensivly and with plasma guns. I could see where taking a PF with melta guns is good for hunting tanks and the like. Again my two cents is its all up to preference. But the Competitive players think its neccessary to have one. *shrug*

@mercer what do you think about zerkers with a PF?
OP sorry for the minor thread jack :(

when you say no reason to have 6 do you believe there should be more PM to join the Champions? and what number do you recommend - @mercer.

I think the PF might be helpful, and only because with the list i have above i dont really see it being really defensive so i will need stronger attacks in CC to be truely effective if in that situation.

alabamaheretic wrote:I dunno i thik its more of a personal preferance, i have ran PMs with out a PF and with a PF i prefer it with but then again i also use my PMs defensivly and with plasma guns. I could see where taking a PF with melta guns is good for hunting tanks and the like. Again my two cents is its all up to preference. But the Competitive players think its neccessary to have one. *shrug*

@mercer what do you think about zerkers with a PF?
OP sorry for the minor thread jack :(

Well power fists don't get with plasma guns because you cannot charge so you're a defensive stance (which you've acknowledged) and you will take damage before you use that fist. Only time a fist is good is against none walker vehicles as they cannot hit you back. No competitive player thinks it's neccessary to take one because every competitive player knows they cost too much points with little return and a competitive player would not be in a situation where others think a power fist is required

Power fist with Berzerkers probably would be ok. See it's different with Plague Marines because they are in a shooting role while Berzerkers are assault. Not only that but a Skull Champion is S9 when charging and has several more attacks so stands a much greater chance.

GreyTauKnight wrote:when you say no reason to have 6 do you believe there should be more PM to join the Champions? and what number do you recommend - @mercer.

I think the PF might be helpful, and only because with the list i have above i dont really see it being really defensive so i will need stronger attacks in CC to be truely effective if in that situation.

Plague Marines are minimum squad of 5 and you can get 2 specials. The 6th dude is adding nothing to the unit besides another number and points. I've ran 5 man Plague Marine units and at least them been shot at they can take some punishment plus are fearless. In combat they can hold units up too, it's just against power weaps etc which destroys them.

If you drop the power fist from each unit that's another unit and then a Plague Marine from each unit would be 69 points.

This post on my blog explains in detail why power fists do not belong on Champions. In summary they do not have enough hitting attacks, cost too much and shouldn't be in a defensive situation to use a power fist in the first place. http://www.imperiusdominatus.com/2011/07/tactica-why-power-fists-do-not-belong.html I hope that helps to understanding my point. I've used power fists on Champions many many times in the past and all they do is cost points and not actually kill a fat lot.

Sounds like you've had some bad experiences w/ PF on Champs. They've been very good for me, and after playing the squads both ways, I couldn't imagine going w/out them. There's just so many more things you can do with the squad when you have the higher power attacks that prevent saves. The squads survive so long that I get lots of PF attacks in, and they can break the stalemates against other MEQ squads w/out them. I'm not trying to convince you to use them, because clearly the haven't worked for you. But I will continue to run them because they've been invaluable in so many situations.

Fairly straight forward Nurgle list. Exactly what I run.

wtwlf123 wrote:Sounds like you've had some bad experiences w/ PF on Champs. They've been very good for me, and after playing the squads both ways, I couldn't imagine going w/out them. There's just so many more things you can do with the squad when you have the higher power attacks that prevent saves. The squads survive so long that I get lots of PF attacks in, and they can break the stalemates against other MEQ squads w/out them. I'm not trying to convince you to use them, because clearly the haven't worked for you. But I will continue to run them because they've been invaluable in so many situations.

It's not experiece but a fact. A Champion only gets 2 attacks and you're only going to hit one of them, not exactly MEQ stomping. If you want to use then that's obivously your choice.

Well, it's not fact. They've been very good here, so your assessment is your opinion, and not "fact" at all. If I'm killing 3-4 MEQs a game with a PF, than it's paying for itself. Same goes for destroying walkers, vehicles, wraithlotds, or anything else I'd be unable to damage in combat w/out them. You don't have to use them. But it's not "fact" that they're bad when clearly they've been good for other people. A lot of other people.

Well it is a fact that they hit 1 out of 2 attacks. Killing 3-4 MEQ isn't impressive. Like I said if you want to use power fist then that's cool.

Or a vindi. Fan of the model and it has always served me well. That way, you have another target that will prevent your rhinos from being the first to go.

I would strongly suggest some berzerkers

would any one think that replacing 2 oblits with a defiler as a bad idea?

honestly its up to you, i prefer oblits but if you want to run a defiler (they are fun to paint) then do it. my question to you is are you trying to be competitive or fluffy or a happy medium?

I am trying to have fun I'm not a competitive player but I still enjoy winning so I guess a happy medium

Defilers are cool, but they'll drop faster than Oblits, and you probably won't get your points worth as often.

well then i would take both cuase some of the advice you have gotten was for competitive builds. but running straight plauges is a tough list, so troop wise your good. hq wise good choices only problem i see with them is they are going to draw tons of fire power witch is a good and bad thing. heavy wise i reccomnd the oblits though so you can have some anti tank stuff. at higher point games consider chosen with full plasma or full melta so you can scare people it works pretty good. hope that helps out some.

PM's are good and soak up a lot of damage but I'd throw some Zerkers or marines in a rhino in there to do some actual damage.

nurgle 1500 points
this looks like a really sloppy list, but ive used this as one of my main lists since the current ediition of the codex has been out
(ive been collecting chaos marines for 11 years now)


Lord
deamon weapon
nurgle



10xPlague Marines
champ
fist
melta


10xPlague Marines
champ
fist
melta
rhino

5xPlague Marines
champ
rhino

4x terminator
4x champ upgrades
4x pairs of lightnig claws
nurgle


Land raider (use for termies and Lord)


Greater deamon (sacrifice the champ in the 5 man squad to summon...thats why he has no upgrades)


ok so in an annhialation game... you can pretty much do whatever you want with this list (my only advice would be to keep that 5 man squad safe at least untill the second turn so you can summon the greater deamon)
but the way to win objective based games with this list is not to race and capture heaps of objectives... but to beat your enemies out of theirs...
i usually keep the 10 man squad without the rhino in my deployment zone objective... these guys can take alot of punishment and deal out heaps too...
then run the land raider to the most heavily defended objective... that way even if you dont kill everything and get a troops choice there in time... you can just contest it
...the smalll squad then runs uop in the rihno (preferably to a unit you need held up and eventually...hopefully...destroyed) summon the greater deamon by sacrificing the un upgraded champion and then hey presto... your enemy has a big pile o' crap moster to deal with (this strat is also good for getting rid of pesky artillery coz monserous creatures are great at killing vehichles)

if you must keep the nurgle theme be my guest.. but I have been findind CSM are better point for point nowadays... Mostly beacause T5 FNP doesnt cut it anymore... if your getting assaulted its by something ghtat can punk em or hold em.. At 1500 i run 10CSM 2meltas IoCG... Cheap and does some great damage... I just won Best General in a local tourny at 1500 with just 2 squads of marines and some berserkers... No green for me.

Another rule from a chaos player, 2 daemon princes or no daemon princes.... there is no grey area.

And definitely add a lash prince or two to send enemies into your rock hard squads of PM's

Noisy_Marine wrote:Don't play chaos marines. Wait for the next codex and see if it's better than the current one.

Stubby wrote:

Noisy_Marine wrote:Don't play chaos marines. Wait for the next codex and see if it's better than the current one.

why the hell would you wait? youre still gunna be able to use the models you get when a new codex comes out... whats the point of delaying an army you want to do, youre still gunna have that army when the codex arrives (which wont be awfully soon btw)

Well Mercer...you tried man. You can take a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

The current CSM codex is pretty bad. Horrible upgrades, very few decent choices in each slot, and very little duality in your troops and transports. Two Lash sorcerers, 6-9 Oblits, and as many double-melta Rhinos as you can get. That's about the best you can do here.

How about we try and convince you to NOT make yet another space marine based army in the gaming community?

2 Termicide squads.

3 Terms + 3 combimeltas = 105 pts
2x termicide = 210 pts. You can add a single chainfist to one of the squads for extra CC potential.

Shadowseer_Kim wrote:How about we try and convince you to NOT make yet another space marine based army in the gaming community?

Hey, it's legions above Ultramarines.

Lt. Coldfire wrote:

Shadowseer_Kim wrote:How about we try and convince you to NOT make yet another space marine based army in the gaming community?

Hey, it's legions above Ultramarines.

agreed sides he said he wants a fun list that is competitive not some waac list

Shadowseer_Kim wrote:How about we try and convince you to NOT make yet another space marine based army in the gaming community?

May as well tell him not to play 40k, then. There's a full 7 Marine codices. Then there's another 2 Imperial codices, one of which is horribly outdated, and ... what, 6 Xenos codices? 2 of which are incredibly outdated, with a third being arguably outdated.

sourclams wrote:

Shadowseer_Kim wrote:How about we try and convince you to NOT make yet another space marine based army in the gaming community?

May as well tell him not to play 40k, then. There's a full 7 Marine codices. Then there's another 2 Imperial codices, one of which is horribly outdated, and ... what, 6 Xenos codices? 2 of which are incredibly outdated, with a third being arguably outdated.

says he who collects what looks to be at least 2 marine armies... and 2 of those other imperial armies... well done champ...

Curly The Despoiler wrote:

sourclams wrote:

Shadowseer_Kim wrote:How about we try and convince you to NOT make yet another space marine based army in the gaming community?

May as well tell him not to play 40k, then. There's a full 7 Marine codices. Then there's another 2 Imperial codices, one of which is horribly outdated, and ... what, 6 Xenos codices? 2 of which are incredibly outdated, with a third being arguably outdated.

says he who collects what looks to be at least 2 marine armies... and 2 of those other imperial armies... well done champ...

sourclams is condoning the use of those armies. Shadowseer_Kim is condemning them.

Lt. Coldfire wrote:

Curly The Despoiler wrote:

sourclams wrote:

Shadowseer_Kim wrote:How about we try and convince you to NOT make yet another space marine based army in the gaming community?

May as well tell him not to play 40k, then. There's a full 7 Marine codices. Then there's another 2 Imperial codices, one of which is horribly outdated, and ... what, 6 Xenos codices? 2 of which are incredibly outdated, with a third being arguably outdated.

says he who collects what looks to be at least 2 marine armies... and 2 of those other imperial armies... well done champ...

sourclams is condoning the use of those armies. Shadowseer_Kim is condemning them.

still looks like hes having a stab to me
either way... i do like his termi squad idea... that thing would be awfully nasty to have in amongst your army (especially if you were guard)
ive got a friend with 5 dreadnaughts in 1200 points... 2 of those squads would make short work of those lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:

unbeliever87 wrote:Well Mercer...you tried man. You can take a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

The current CSM codex is pretty bad. Horrible upgrades, very few decent choices in each slot, and very little duality in your troops and transports. Two Lash sorcerers, 6-9 Oblits, and as many double-melta Rhinos as you can get. That's about the best you can do here.

you can actually get some really effective and fun lists out of the CSM codex... not to mention the fact that you can theme a chaos army better than any other... its not for everyone ill agree with you there... but if you know how to write up a decent army list... you should be able to make any codex work...

Curly The Despoiler wrote:you can actually get some really effective and fun lists out of the CSM codex... not to mention the fact that you can theme a chaos army better than any other... its not for everyone ill agree with you there... but if you know how to write up a decent army list... you should be able to make any codex work...

We must be talking about two different books. Go through the codex, see how all the long range shooting is in the HS slot? See how the troops/transport can only contribute within 18"?See the limited number of fast moving Melta? See the lack of decent upgrades and overall lack of flexibility? See all the random/just-for-fun units that can't actually be relied upon in a competitive setting?

alabamaheretic wrote:agreed sides he said he wants a fun list that is competitive not some waac list

Tell me, what's the difference between competitive and WAAC? Fun is where you find it; some people have fun by playing random lists without caring about the results, some people have fun by playing strong lists and playing to the best of their abilities within the frameworks (rules) given to them.

I am all about the random lists I have fun if I win or lose I enjoy the nurgle theme but plan to use some berserkers a little later on. I enjoy seeing how certain units play out even if they are not units everyone would use

so wanting to start death guard eh? well drop the rhinos (rhinos are rubbish) and replace them with 10 man squads of plague marines oh and buy the codex now (people think its rubbish but when you have gotten past the fact lots of things are expensive its actually a decent codex, and 6Th Ed is only spectulation as well).

don't go for berserkers they are only orks in power armour

why are Rhinos Rubbish?

Space marines/blood angels/space wolves

doesnt help i am afraid.....

GreyTauKnight wrote:why are Rhinos Rubbish?

They're not. Don't listen to everything people tell you, especially kids who don't know what they're talking about.

oh i didnt think they were i just like to hear the reasoning behind what people say

well i think rhinos are great cuase its the only transport besides a landraider and that can only be dedicated to termies or eat three valuable heavy slots where oblits should go or even defilers

unbeliever87 wrote:

GreyTauKnight wrote:why are Rhinos Rubbish?

They're not. Don't listen to everything people tell you, especially kids who don't know what they're talking about.

because they are the weakest armoured tank available sure brilliant for objective games but not much else but if you really want them stick a havoc launcher on them

oh and thanks unbeliver87 for blabbing to everyone that I don't know the rules when i actually do look on the thread on Ratwolfs and you will see a new reply on it (i have been playing the game for 5 years you should know )

back to topic as well as having a deamon prince typhus has astonishing rules and no death guard army should go complete without him.

I see them like this, They may be weak in armour but that cant be hidden alot easier then most tanks and they get your troops where they need to be, if you only look at armour your doing it wrong onlt because a S10 AP1 weapon doesnt care, yes alot more can take a rhino out but you need the mobility, gonna get hurt if your just a walking army with out any great weapons

happygolucky wrote:

unbeliever87 wrote:

GreyTauKnight wrote:why are Rhinos Rubbish?

They're not. Don't listen to everything people tell you, especially kids who don't know what they're talking about.

because they are the weakest armoured tank available sure brilliant for objective games but not much else but if you really want them stick a havoc launcher on them

oh and thanks unbeliver87 for blabbing to everyone that I don't know the rules when i actually do look on the thread on Ratwolfs and you will see a new reply on it (i have been playing the game for 5 years you should know )

back to topic as well as having a deamon prince typhus has astonishing rules and no death guard army should go complete without him.

I don't think he was saying you don't know the rules.. I think his point was that you saying that rhinos are rubbish is.. well.. I'll go with unfounded.
They are 35 points and are versatile in both delivering and protecting your troops.. just about the best thing you could do for your PMs.

To the OP, I've been playing Nurgle for quite a while and I like your second list there with the 2 daemon princes, make sure to field the PM in 7s for extra fluffy effect! : D
PS, I play for fun.

You're patently insane if you run Chaos without rhinos. The only time this is even viable is if you're using giant blob Plague Marine squads as character delivery systems for Abaddon and Kharne.

Trying to walk 10 man Plague blobs across the table against 15+ MLs, DE blaster/poison, GK mass power weapons and all the normal crap that can kill power armored foot squads dead is insanity.

A Rhino is a 35 pt upgrade that doubles their movement, provides ablative protection (I don't care if AV11 is 'weak' armor; it's better than 3+ armor against a missile launcher, lance, or lascannon), and gives numerous options for LOS-blocking and objective contesting. Smoke can also keep you relatively safe for a single, critical turn to close distance with what is fundamentally a short-ranged army.

More importantly, a rhino is the only chance that your troops have of shooting at a DE mechline--ever. I have watched people try to make chaos foot blobs work, and I have seen them fail every single time. T4-5 with 3+ armor is simply not durable enough to close with today's shooting potential.

unbeliever87 wrote:

Curly The Despoiler wrote:you can actually get some really effective and fun lists out of the CSM codex... not to mention the fact that you can theme a chaos army better than any other... its not for everyone ill agree with you there... but if you know how to write up a decent army list... you should be able to make any codex work...

We must be talking about two different books. Go through the codex, see how all the long range shooting is in the HS slot? See how the troops/transport can only contribute within 18"?See the limited number of fast moving Melta? See the lack of decent upgrades and overall lack of flexibility? See all the random/just-for-fun units that can't actually be relied upon in a competitive setting?

alabamaheretic wrote:agreed sides he said he wants a fun list that is competitive not some waac list

Tell me, what's the difference between competitive and WAAC? Fun is where you find it; some people have fun by playing random lists without caring about the results, some people have fun by playing strong lists and playing to the best of their abilities within the frameworks (rules) given to them.

OK fether... the CSM codex is themed (as are all the codices) so thats why you dont have all the upgrades that may be in other marine codices... not to mention the fact that csm armies arnt prodominantly shooting armies... they take the fight to the enemy in most cases and shoot along the way... if you expect to sit back and shoot with a chaos army, youre playing them wrong... thats like saying the tau codex is horrible because they dont have many combat upgrades... think about the type of army it is supposed to be before ragging on the codex...
but i totally agree with you that rhinos are infact... not rubbish

When did I say the Chaos army wasn't 'themed'? All I said was that the codex was underpowered because it lacked the options that the more competitive codexes have. This is 5th edition, where mech and shooting is king. With a small number of exceptions, competitive lists win in the movement and shooting phase, not in the assault phase.

But hey, keep ignoring my points and making excuses for why a terrible codex is terrible.

FYI, noteable exceptions consists of: DoA Blood Angels, some Thunderwolf Cav lists, one or two Ork lists...that's all I can think of. Remember, I'm talking about competitive lists, not random CC lists that you lose to becuase you're terrible.

The Tau codex is also underpowered, but that's mainly because it's old and only has one or two competitive builds. Crisis Suits, Broadsides, Kroot, Disruption Pods and the ability to stall the opponent (Gun Drones, Piranhas, JSJ) are the only reason Tau can remain competitive, and even then it requires some luck.

all im saying is that the csm codex isnt a terrible codex... ive won a few tourneys using this codex (2 quite recently) including a games workshop staff tournament....
i just think that rather than complain about the chaos codex to a guy that clearly wants to do a chaos army, make the best of a bad situation and actually help him with a list that can be fun and competetive.... hes just versing his friend... hes not playing for the champion of the universe lol
i understand if you think that the csm codex in inferior because youre unable to adapt to the somewhat limited resources that it has... but just coz you dont see a way to make it work... doesnt mean that it wont work for other people

im sick of arguing on this poor guys thread... lets just agree to disagree
i like the codex because im used to it and can use it... you think its gak because you cant...


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and mate... its people like you that kill the hobby for other people

Honest question here. Do you consider your usual Nurgle list competitive?

For what it's worth, this is about the most competitive CSM list I can think of off the top of my head. Points from memory:
Sorcerer, Mark of Slaanesh, Lash of Submission - 125
Chaos Terminator Squad (3), 3 x Combi-Melta - 105
Chaos Terminator Squad (3), 3 x Combi-Melta - 105
Plague Marines (5), 2 x Meltagun, Rhino with Combi-flamer - 175
Plague Marines (5), 2 x Meltagun, Rhino with Combi-flamer - 175
Plague Marines (5), 2 x Meltagun, Rhino with Combi-flamer - 175
Plague Marines (5), 2 x Meltagun, Rhino with Combi-flamer - 175
Chaos Space Marines (5), Meltagun, Rhino with Havoc Launcher - 145
Chaos Space Marines (5), Meltagun, Rhino with Havoc Launcher - 145
Obliterators (3) - 225
Obliterators (3) - 225
Obliterators (3) - 225
Total: 2000

By the way, we're in Australia, outside of Arcanacon/MiF there's no such thing as a competitive tournament here. Even those two shoot themselves in the foot with overbearing comp, painting and sports scores.

I dont have a set list i use all the time... but none of mine are written to be overly competetive... my armies tend to be very themed... ive just used nurgle for long enough and against so many different opponents that i know how to use them effectively... at the end of the day, you can have the most flawless list and still lose... it comes down to good decisions and the luck of the dice
as noob as it sounds... im not into writing lists just coz i know theyll smash mu opponent... eg... i sometimes field defilers... theyre really not as good as people think lol
and there may not be many official tournaments however i can assure you that there are alot of locally run veteran gamer tournaments all around the country.... and the staff tournaments for GW are quite challenging (sometimes lol)


i can tell you now though that that list is good... ive gotta say though... something that works well in a competative list is 2 dreadnaughts with 2 close combat weapons.... theyre a reasonably cheap yet tough distraction... and if they do make it to the enemy (which they usually do) they can make a real mess lol... i see we have the same philosophy with meltas... the more the better lol (then again anyone that plays marines should think the same way lol)

The only way I would consider running Dreadnoughts when there are vehicles of your own around is as a cheap Missile Launcher/Autocannon platform, removing all DCCW entirely. Dreads are slower than Rhinos, so with a DCCW there's a very good chance of charging and killing your own Rhinos. At least with Missile Launcher/Autocannon the chance of killing your own vehicles is low (ie, firing the ML as a Frag) when they do decide to go nuts. I did consider them when writing that list, feel free to sub them in for the Terminators if you like.

Correct, Defilers really aren't as good as most people think. When you consider that they have to compete for spots with Obliterators and Havoc squads they're even worse.

unbeliever87 wrote:Honest question here. Do you consider your usual Nurgle list competitive?

For what it's worth, this is about the most competitive CSM list I can think of off the top of my head. Points from memory:
Sorcerer, Mark of Slaanesh, Lash of Submission - 125
Chaos Terminator Squad (3), 3 x Combi-Melta - 105
Chaos Terminator Squad (3), 3 x Combi-Melta - 105
Plague Marines (5), 2 x Meltagun, Rhino with Combi-flamer - 175
Plague Marines (5), 2 x Meltagun, Rhino with Combi-flamer - 175
Plague Marines (5), 2 x Meltagun, Rhino with Combi-flamer - 175
Plague Marines (5), 2 x Meltagun, Rhino with Combi-flamer - 175
Chaos Space Marines (5), Meltagun, Rhino with Havoc Launcher - 145
Chaos Space Marines (5), Meltagun, Rhino with Havoc Launcher - 145
Obliterators (3) - 225
Obliterators (3) - 225
Obliterators (3) - 225
Total: 2000

By the way, we're in Australia, outside of Arcanacon/MiF there's no such thing as a competitive tournament here. Even those two shoot themselves in the foot with overbearing comp, painting and sports scores.

actually no i dont think plauge marines are the most competative way t run CSM. test after test i find CSM outright just better. More guns, more wounds, yes less survivaility but most things that are geared to kill marines kill marines just fine. I find my favorite squads are 10CMS 2xmeltas, IoCG and a rhino. 215 points, 10guys, rerollable 9LD, Icon and lots of bolters... More damage output, better in assault.
And 9 oblits is way too many for 2000... you need more targets and trick...

I run 3x2man oblits squads in ardboys...

All in all CSM are better not using MSU and filling your units... Rhinoes are really just dilivery systems for chaos, not as much of a gun wagon. I find 10man CSM and 8man Zerker squads the most competative troops. Also if your looking to go competative run 2 Daemon Prines,,, hands down one of the best HQ in this game. I always run a tzeench warptime prince and slaanesh lash prince. A lot fo the time I run a greater daemon as well.

Do you know why I went with the Plague Marines, over a CSM squad? Plague marines as per the setup above cost 175 points per unit. A CSM squad with 2 meltaguns (1 Meltagun and 1 Champ with combi-melta) cost 155. T5, FNP and a more useful Meltagun is worth 20 points, especially on a minimum sized troops unit.

Do you know why Berzerkers aren't the best troop? No Meltaguns. Good luck assaulting tanks and hitting on 6's.

Do you know why a sorcerer is better than a prince in this list? He's cheaper and can cast powers safely from inside the rhino. Deamon princes get shot up and die first turn.

I would love to see your 'ard boys list.

Edit: Let's try something a little more towards your direction though. Again, points from memory.

Sorcerer, Mark of Slaanesh, Lash of Submission - 125
Sorcerer, Mark of Slaanesh, Lash of Submission - 125
Dreadnought, Missile Launcher, Autocannon - 110
Dreadnought, Missile Launcher, Autocannon - 110
Chaos Space Marines (10), 2 x Meltaguns, Icon of Chaos Glory, Rhino with Combi-Flamer - 215
Chaos Space Marines (10), 2 x Meltaguns, Icon of Chaos Glory, Rhino with Combi-Flamer - 215
Chaos Space Marines (10), 2 x Meltaguns, Icon of Chaos Glory, Rhino with Combi-Flamer - 215
Chaos Space Marines (5), 1 x Meltaguns, Rhino with Havoc Launcher - 145
Chaos Space Marines (5), 1 x Meltaguns, Rhino with Havoc Launcher - 145
Chaos Space Marines (5), 1 x Meltaguns, Rhino with Havoc Launcher - 145
Obliterators (2) - 150
Obliterators (2) - 150
Obliterators (2) - 150
Total: 2000

More firepower spread out around more units. Less Meltaguns, but more bodies overall. Dark Eldar and Mech IG will rape you a little more softly.

You have gotten enough replys, there is a good chance you will never get to my post, but personally, I think obliterators & defilers are superior to vindicators. Oblity's have a metric ton of firepower whereas defilers are a bit tougher & have ordinance that they can move & shoot (if that is all they shoot). Bottom line oblits have more power whereas defilers & predators are a bit tougher. But I think, with that many PM's you are more than tough enough & 4 obliterators should do you just fine. However, personally I really like khorne berzerkers & noise marines (did I mispell khorne?). Berzerkers are overall the best marked unit in my opinion, but used properly, the AP 3 small blast pinning effect of a blastmaster is very useful. Just 5 noise marines; one w/ a blastmaster, the others with sonic blasters, is a very shooty/dangerous unit, not to be underestimated (particularly if you deploy them in a good positionwith cover). Marked units are great for claiming objectives; but I would say Khorne berzerkers (due to thier sheer power), & plague marines ( for thier survivability), are the best at this (for CSM's). I hope this helps (although I'm probably a bit late)

: )

I would also like to note transports are a lot more useful since the las rulebook update, so it would serve you well to consider how useful transports might be to your army if used correctly, particularly in certain missions.