Does anyone else think that the loyal primarchs got completely wrecked by the rebel Primarchs? I mean about 7 of the Rebel ones are Greater Demons and may still be alive while all of the Loyal ones are either MIa or KIA. I mean seriously, how didn't the Chaos Marines win, they had numbers and were getting through the fortress. They probably could've held off the loyalists coming too. WHat are your guys' thoughts?
They didn't win because chaos cannot win. The imperial armies are worth more than 50% of GW profits. If they went, then GW wouldn't be in very good shape.
Justicar Cliesthenes wrote:Does anyone else think that the loyal primarchs got completely wrecked by the rebel Primarchs? I mean about 7 of the Rebel ones are Greater Demons and may still be alive while all of the Loyal ones are either MIa or KIA. I mean seriously, how didn't the Chaos Marines win, they had numbers and were getting through the fortress. They probably could've held off the loyalists coming too. WHat are your guys' thoughts?
To be fair, a lot of the Loyalist Primarchs may still be alive, and others were killed or incapacitated after the Heresy, like Guilliman.
And yeah, the Loyalist Primarchs don't get the option of being Daemon Princes, lol.
The Traitor Primarchs and all the Chaos forces retreated after Horus was killed by the Emperor.
Exactly the point I made in another thread! Seems to suggest that Chaos has a lot going for it, especially when you think of the pathetic ways in which some of the loyalist primarchs got injured and killed!
However, is becoming a demon really a major success?
Isengard wrote:Exactly the point I made in another thread! Seems to suggest that Chaos has a lot going for it, especially when you think of the pathetic ways in which some of the loyalist primarchs got injured and killed!
However, is becoming a demon really a major success?
For a servant of Chaos then yes, absolutely. They gain the power of a Greater Daemon whilst staying involved with the events of the material realm.
Isengard wrote:Exactly the point I made in another thread! Seems to suggest that Chaos has a lot going for it, especially when you think of the pathetic ways in which some of the loyalist primarchs got injured and killed!
However, is becoming a demon really a major success?
A normal Chaos Marine becoming a Daemon Prince makes them almost on par with the average Greater Daemon.
The Daemon Primarchs are far stronger than that now, and rule their own Daemon Worlds as gods.
To suggest that the traitor primarchs have come out on top because they're still living is to ignore what they have become and the lives they live. I'm sure it isn't an altogether joyous experience no matter how 'cool' it might seem to be a demon.
Remember as well that Fulgrim is trapped within his own body by a demon. Forced to live out his existence in that way does not seem like a victory to me.
Uhlan wrote:There is no glory in becoming a pawn of Chaos.
To suggest that the traitor primarchs have come out on top because they're still living is to ignore what they have become and the lives they live. I'm sure it isn't an altogether joyous experience no matter how 'cool' it might seem to be a demon.
Remember as well that Fulgrim is trapped within his own body by a demon. Forced to live out his existence in that way does not seem like a victory to me.
It gives hopes to chaos one day we will rise and remove the very existence of the imperium. But this wont happen due to the game would lose a lot money.
Be good to have a campaign and which ever side wins the winner removes the opposite special named character from the book. Something needs to be the public vote.
Uhlan wrote:There is no glory in becoming a pawn of Chaos.
To suggest that the traitor primarchs have come out on top because they're still living is to ignore what they have become and the lives they live. I'm sure it isn't an altogether joyous experience no matter how 'cool' it might seem to be a demon.
Remember as well that Fulgrim is trapped within his own body by a demon. Forced to live out his existence in that way does not seem like a victory to me.
And importantly, also the glorious possibilities forsaken when they chose the paths they did. Had they great crusade continued and succeeded, they would indeed have become rulers of the galaxy.
Void__Dragon wrote:Angron seems like he's having a pretty good time.
He seems very much to be the exception, however. The remainder of the traitor primarchs seem (though of course subsequent fluff may contradict this) to have achieved little or nothing in the millennia since their ascension. A common inference from their absence from the spotlight is that, having become essentially immortal creatures of the empyrean, they have grown distanced from mortal concerns and no longer feel the motivation they once did to act in the physical world.
Chaos can't win because it's too, well, chaotic. The warbands fight each other as often as they fight the Imperium, and the legions aren't much better. When everyone is fighting to come out on top, they're not fighting for the same cause.
spudkins wrote:It gives hopes to chaos one day we will rise and remove the very existence of the imperium. But this wont happen due to the game would lose a lot money.
Be good to have a campaign and which ever side wins the winner removes the opposite special named character from the book. Something needs to be the public vote.
A significant number of the codices' special characters are canonically dead as of 999.M41 anyway.
Chaos can't win becasue their leaders are to busy trying to kill each other most of the time. Ocasionally there's a Black Crusade, but that never gets too far.
woodbok wrote:They didn't win because chaos cannot win. The imperial armies are worth more than 50% of GW profits. If they went, then GW wouldn't be in very good shape.
EDIT: Damn ninja's.
Chaos didn't win because it was actuallyt the intention of the Dark Gods. Ultimately, the whole point of the Heresy was to ensure the Chaos Gods' survival through a slow decline of the Imperium and the emotions and worship they would devour from the human race consequentally. IMO, the Emporer's plan was to starve the gods through the Aetheism of the Imperial Truth, and it might just have succeded if not for that disaster. The dark gods would have starved if the Imperial Truth prospered, but they will also starve if the Imperium and/or human race is destroyed (wasn't that Alpharius/Omegon's plan anyway?). So, truth, Chaos did win the Heresy, even if the pawns/enlightened ones didn't.
+1 Deathly angel.
besides, chaos does not really care about the real world. their attentions are mostly fixed on their struggles in the warp.
they do however realise that a decline in emotional feedback from the real world would mean their destruction, so they do what they can to keep the fires hot so to speak and milk humanity of every scrap of emotion they can. if that means torturing the imperium to death in a slow decline then so be it.
No Chaos wanted the Imperium and more imporantly the EMperor destroyed for even more carnage and whorshipping. But the emperor was just to strong and the Rebel Primarchs proved to be a bunch of egomanic loosers.
And what about the Primarchs now? In the great crusade they conquered world after world. Now they are held in bay by the Imperium and get another Penalty-time in the Warp again and again.
tarnish wrote:
besides, chaos does not really care about the real world. their attentions are mostly fixed on their struggles in the warp
This is utter nonsense, considering all of their schemes and plots ideally culminate in crossing over into the material realm, or better yet, bringing Chaos with them. Ultimate victory for Chaos is when the Eye of Terror envelops the whole galaxy and all souls are their playthings.
tarnish wrote:
besides, chaos does not really care about the real world. their attentions are mostly fixed on their struggles in the warp
This is utter nonsense, considering all of their schemes and plots ideally culminate in crossing over into the material realm, or better yet, bringing Chaos with them. Ultimate victory for Chaos is when the Eye of Terror envelops the whole galaxy and all souls are their playthings.
It's not nonsense. I'd like to point you to the current Daemons of Chaos Codex. They're FAR more concerned with playing the Great Game.
English Assassin wrote:He seems very much to be the exception, however. The remainder of the traitor primarchs seem (though of course subsequent fluff may contradict this) to have achieved little or nothing in the millennia since their ascension. A common inference from their absence from the spotlight is that, having become essentially immortal creatures of the empyrean, they have grown distanced from mortal concerns and no longer feel the motivation they once did to act in the physical world.
You view growing beyond mortal concerns as a bad thing? They are immortal and now wage grand wars in the Immaterium for Chaos. That's a better fate than most in the Imperium. And certainly better than being in a stasis field and feeling yourself dying for ten thousand years.
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Dark Scipio wrote:No Chaos wanted the Imperium and more imporantly the EMperor destroyed for even more carnage and whorshipping. But the emperor was just to strong and the Rebel Primarchs proved to be a bunch of egomanic loosers.
And what about the Primarchs now? In the great crusade they conquered world after world. Now they are held in bay by the Imperium and get another Penalty-time in the Warp again and again.
Chaos couldn't give a damn about the Imperium. They wanted the Emperor out of the picture. They got that. They are stronger now than ever before.
Held in bay by the Imperium? Seventy sectors burned the one time Angron left the Warp. When Magnus attacked the Fang, the key to fixing their geneseed was destroyed. Even Mortarion killed the Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights before Draigo used his heart as a coloring book.
Sure, they were eventually banished (Except for maybe MAgnus, never read Battle of the Fang, so my knowledge on the events is second-hand), but you know what that ultimately robs them of? Nothing. They are still among the most favored and powerful of the Chaos God's servants.
The Daemon Primarchs are in better shape than the other Primarchs, who are dead, in stasis, or missing (Khan from what I hear is rumored to be captured by Dark Eldar, which is kind of a raw deal).
The Daemon Primarchs are in better shape than the other Primarchs, who are dead, in stasis, or missing (Khan from what I hear is rumored to be captured by Dark Eldar, which is kind of a raw deal).
Better shape?
Better dead than a minion, a slave bound in the image of a demon.
Why don't they return if they are in such good shape?
Wait..
The think they are in good shape, but thats an illusion.
They became grumpy old farts, geriatric and bitter.
Better dead than a minion, a slave bound in the image of a demon.
Why don't they return if they are in such good shape?
Wait..
The think they are in good shape, but thats an illusion.
They became grumpy old farts, geriatric and bitter.
Hmm, dead, and therefore having your soul devoured by Chaos, or a uberpowerful Daemon with the power to bend and shape a planet according to your whim?
I'd go with the latter.
And Guilliman undoubtedly has a more raw deal than the Daemon Primarchs. Feeling like you've been dying of poison for ten thousand years ftw.
Not an existance in unrest as a cartoon of yourself.
Void__Dragon wrote:
or a uberpowerful Daemon with the power to bend and shape a planet according to your whim?
Bend and shape a hellhole filled with Demons,
- instead of shaping a galaxy wide empire, driving the xeno and the non-compliant before you?
Giving orders to the insane, the betrayers and the lost,
- instead of a well oiled fighting machine backed up by nigh limitless ressources ?
I doubt I'd give up on the GC.
The uberpowerfulness is a lie. The Traitor Primarchs are all disabled. Maybe you can scare kittys or little kids with them.
Void__Dragon wrote:
And Guilliman undoubtedly has a more raw deal than the Daemon Primarchs. Feeling like you've been dying of poison for ten thousand years ftw.
Who cares for him ? Look down. Do you spot a blue helmet?
tarnish wrote:
besides, chaos does not really care about the real world. their attentions are mostly fixed on their struggles in the warp
This is utter nonsense, considering all of their schemes and plots ideally culminate in crossing over into the material realm, or better yet, bringing Chaos with them. Ultimate victory for Chaos is when the Eye of Terror envelops the whole galaxy and all souls are their playthings.
for someone who has: "fluff for the fluff god", in his info box, you really need to read up on some of it the warp is not simply another world... it needs the living to grow or even exist as it is now. if every soul was devoured then the warp would run out off juice fast, and the greater powers know this. for things to remain beneficial they need to torture the galaxy for all its worth...
1hadhq wrote:The uberpowerfulness is a lie. The Traitor Primarchs are all disabled. Maybe you can scare kittys or little kids with them.
Void__Dragon wrote:
And Guilliman undoubtedly has a more raw deal than the Daemon Primarchs. Feeling like you've been dying of poison for ten thousand years ftw.
Who cares for him ? Look down. Do you spot a blue helmet?
The Troll Side of the Force is strong with this one.
That wasn't directed at you, but in any case, there is plenty of BL fluff that states the ultimate victory for Chaos is subsuming the material realm. Every soul would not be destroyed, but rather would be like the examples we've seen of daemon-ruled planets, where there are plenty of mortal species living in slavery. The best example can probably be seen in the Grey Knights omnibus, but even Codex/IA material describes mortal beings living on daemon planets. See Mortarion's digs, for example, it is a twisted reflection of his origin planet.
The whole reason the brutal oppression of the Imperium is necessary, because unchecked psychic development of the human race would result in another birth of a Chaos god, one to make Slaanesh look like a fart by comparison.
Not an existance in unrest as a cartoon of yourself.
A kickass cartoon where you get to command vast immortal armies and are undying. Beats being dead.
1hadhq wrote:Bend and shape a hellhole filled with Demons,
- instead of shaping a galaxy wide empire, driving the xeno and the non-compliant before you?
Giving orders to the insane, the betrayers and the lost,
- instead of a well oiled fighting machine backed up by nigh limitless ressources ?
I doubt I'd give up on the GC.
The uberpowerfulness is a lie. The Traitor Primarchs are all disabled. Maybe you can scare kittys or little kids with them.
Bend and shape a hellhole filled with incredibly powerful entities formed from thought at your beck and call more like. The glory of the Great Crusade is nothing before that of Chaos.
Well-oiled fighting machine? Were it so, then the Heresy would not have happened. The Horus Heresy occurred because the Imperium's leader was incompetent, arrogant, a bit of a dick, and foolish. And the resources of the Imperium have never been as limitless as the resources of Chaos.
1hadhq wrote:Who cares for him ? Look down. Do you spot a blue helmet?
In a discussion about which set of Primarchs had it worse, I would think we should care for him.
Although, Fulgrim, the Primarch, not the Daemon, also had a raw deal.
Omegus wrote:That wasn't directed at you, but in any case, there is plenty of BL fluff that states the ultimate victory for Chaos is subsuming the material realm. Every soul would not be destroyed, but rather would be like the examples we've seen of daemon-ruled planets, where there are plenty of mortal species living in slavery. The best example can probably be seen in the Grey Knights omnibus, but even Codex/IA material describes mortal beings living on daemon planets. See Mortarion's digs, for example, it is a twisted reflection of his origin planet.
The whole reason the brutal oppression of the Imperium is necessary, because unchecked psychic development of the human race would result in another birth of a Chaos god, one to make Slaanesh look like a fart by comparison.
well yes and no. to some degree i agree with you but chaos is smarter then that. the imperium as is serves them better then the option you describe, and as written in the Horus heresy series. Slaves living on daemon worlds eventually become pawns to the gods or die, thereby making them a less then permanent asset. Nevertheless not all of the warps entities think rationally so might not see this as a bad thing....
Basically there's the view that the powers conspire and the one that lets you believe there's no logic or reason behind the warps major players. that they simply..are. Besides i think its likely that powers like Tzeentch change their mind constantly and really have little use for a long term strategy as to where the souls are coming from. the chaos powers are fickle at best after all...
I still don't see the problem with omnipresent Chaos. Humans will still breed like rats, regardless of their living conditions. A daemon world can't be much worse than a Hive, honestly, except there are all those puritans ruining your fun.
As for Tzeench, considering he orchestrated the entire Heresy from the moment the Primarchs were scattered in the Warp, I don't think we can accuse him of being ADD. That assumes he can only focus on one thing at a time, but really, a creature like Tzeench is far beyond our concept of attention span. Part of him could follow the strands of a plot for thousands of years, while other parts engage in whatever else.
Omegus wrote:I still don't see the problem with omnipresent Chaos. Humans will still breed like rats, regardless of their living conditions. A daemon world can't be much worse than a Hive, honestly, except there are all those puritans ruining your fun.
breed yes, but chaos poisons you slowly in the real world and i would suspect that once in the warp your toast faster then usual. most of them would be raving mad in a matter of minutes and the rest would find other things to do that are also very unhealthy in general. i dont see the warp as being a nice farming zone
the hives are a hellish place yes, but its real none the less, and therefore more sustainable.
Well, there are several examples of just that in BL books. They are certainly unhappy, but they are hardly "raving mad". Humans are remarkably adaptive, so if you're born on a Warp world, you're probably used to daemonic craziness, at least to the point of not losing it the first time you see a bloodletter.
Wonder if this was because the emperor closed all the KFC's and horus got well annoyed and the need for 12oclock chicken made him go mental. The colonel as the primarch of the finger licking chickens.
Things was getting abit angry so thought this would calm things down abit.
Peace heretics. X
spudkins wrote:Wonder if this was because the emperor closed all the KFC's and horus got well annoyed and the need for 12oclock chicken made him go mental. The colonel as the primarch of the finger licking chickens.
Things was getting abit angry so thought this would calm things down abit.
Peace heretics. X
I have wrote it before, I will write it again. Chaos always wins! Do you think that the Inquisition destroying entire planets and sectors because of the possibility of taint is not winning. What could be more Chaotic. A constant state of war and killing. Entire Imperium planets only exist to train killers.
Justicar Cliesthenes wrote:What are your guys' thoughts?
Chaos lost because the Emperor protects.
Obvious Troll is obvious. Although to be honest it's hard to tell with you Coa.
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Omegus wrote:That wasn't directed at you, but in any case, there is plenty of BL fluff that states the ultimate victory for Chaos is subsuming the material realm. Every soul would not be destroyed, but rather would be like the examples we've seen of daemon-ruled planets, where there are plenty of mortal species living in slavery. The best example can probably be seen in the Grey Knights omnibus, but even Codex/IA material describes mortal beings living on daemon planets. See Mortarion's digs, for example, it is a twisted reflection of his origin planet.
Is this the goal of the Chaos Gods or their unwitting servants? Chaos does not care who rules the material realm so long as they have worship and souls. It may the objective of the Daemon Primarchs and Chaos Astartes, but the Gods would prefer an eternity of war.
The whole reason the brutal oppression of the Imperium is necessary, because unchecked psychic development of the human race would result in another birth of a Chaos god, one to make Slaanesh look like a fart by comparison.
Justicar Cliesthenes wrote:What are your guys' thoughts?
Chaos lost because the Emperor protects.
Obvious Troll is obvious. Although to be honest it's hard to tell with you Coa.
And obvious joke is obvious joke. Some people...
No seriously, either you were trolling or you were being serious. Sometimes it can very hard to distinguish with things you post about the Imperium. So which one was it?
iproxtaco wrote:
No seriously, either you were trolling or you were being serious. Sometimes it can very hard to distinguish with things you post about the Imperium. So which one was it?
Seriously, why are you trolling me iproxtaco?
Stop that.
iproxtaco wrote:
No seriously, either you were trolling or you were being serious. Sometimes it can very hard to distinguish with things you post about the Imperium. So which one was it?
Seriously, why are you trolling me iproxtaco?
Stop that.
Still going are we? Simply put, the statement "Chaos lost because the Emperor protects." is wrong, and either a very weak attempt at trolling or another of your typical remarks about your favorite faction.
I think this all hinges on how we view Chaos and daemonhood.
If you think that Chaos is a monstrous force that corrupts through lies and then places its followers into an eternal living hell (plague marine anyone?) then the demon primarchs have lost big time.
If you think that Chaos is somehow liberating, that it is honest and essentially the frreing of the base nature to act as it wishes then turning to Chaos is embracing one's nature and freeing ones spirit. This viewpoint would see the plague marine as a winner who has embraced something essential and vital not a plague crippled leper.
I haven't expressed that as clearly as I would like but I hope you get the point!
It has some echoes of the positions of say satanists versus those who follow some Abrahamic faith.
Remember that from the point of view of the Dark Gods and their servants, these gifts are blessings. Nurgle would think that being a Plague marine is a blessing, as would the Plague Marine.
iproxtaco wrote:
Still going are we? Simply put, the statement "Chaos lost because the Emperor protects." is wrong, and either a very weak attempt at trolling or another of your typical remarks about your favorite faction.
iproxtaco wrote:
Still going are we? Simply put, the statement "Chaos lost because the Emperor protects." is wrong, and either a very weak attempt at trolling or another of your typical remarks about your favorite faction.
It was a joke, and you take it seriously
Man, you need to get laid down a little...
So you were trolling then, like I've been saying for the last ten posts. That's a change of pace from your usual rants.
Brother Coa wrote:Wait, how can joking be considered a trolling?
When that 'joke' is difficult to perceive as humorous and is particularly inflammatory in nature. Basically, it could have started an argument on that topic, since it was both wrong and fanboy-ish.
Brother Coa wrote:Wait, how can joking be considered a trolling?
When that 'joke' is difficult to perceive as humorous and is particularly inflammatory in nature. Basically, it could have started an argument on that topic, since it was both wrong and fanboy-ish.
But it was a joke for Emperor's sake.... Do I need to sing ( joke ) every time I am joking?
Brother Coa wrote:Wait, how can joking be considered a trolling?
When that 'joke' is difficult to perceive as humorous and is particularly inflammatory in nature. Basically, it could have started an argument on that topic, since it was both wrong and fanboy-ish.
But it was a joke for Emperor's sake.... Do I need to sing ( joke ) every time I am joking?
You have a reputation, Coa, for being slightly too involved with your chosen faction. I certainly didn't perceive it as a joke, but that you were trolling, or you really meant it.
So what if I am a follower of Ecclesiarchy? That doesn't mean that I can't joke whom time to time. And only for you I will write ( joke ) when I am joking.
Brother Coa wrote:So what if I am a follower of Ecclesiarchy? That doesn't mean that I can't joke whom time to time. And only for you I will write ( joke ) when I am joking. ( I always knew you Brits lacked bone for humor. To much serious about everything... ).
Now you're not really making any sense. Be a follower of whatever organization or religion you want to be, that doesn't stop you having a reputation for being an huge Imperium fan and it certainly doesn't stop your post from being potentially inflammatory.
Brother Coa wrote:So being a follower of Ecclesiarchy = Huge Imperial fan?
And I am trying to hold myself lately... you must give me credit for that.
Notice how I treated your beliefs and the fact that you're an Imperium fan separately. There's plenty of posts that are clearly driven by bias. I don't find it a problem, but it made any 'jokes' difficult to discern.
Brother Coa wrote: That doesn't mean that I can't joke whom time to time. And only for you I will write ( joke ) when I am joking..
iproxtaco wrote:Now you're not really making any sense
I hope I don't disturb you two on your honeymoon....
...if I post a reply to someone else.
Void__Dragon wrote:
A kickass cartoon where you get to command vast immortal armies and are undying. Beats being dead.
Vast immortal armies? Your thinking of Necrons here, not chaos.
The days of the primarchs are over, ( on usability in the fluff of M41 ), their age long gone and certainly the choice of some to vanish
( thus deemed MIA / KIA ) before their status as some sort of demi-god would turn out bad deserves more respect than the selfish bunch of demon primarchs who, just exist somewhere to do something and win/ lose something but it wouldn't matter if they died as nothing would change.
Wait, forgot nowadays they are used to cut names into them. In my time, we used trees for that.
Void__Dragon wrote:
Bend and shape a hellhole filled with incredibly powerful entities formed from thought at your beck and call more like. The glory of the Great Crusade is nothing before that of Chaos.
Any source for this incredible power? I mean, if they had so much power, they wouldn't obey...
Otoh, are you sure its not an illusion? Formed from thought, yes things formed like that tend to be unreal.
But, lets stick with your idea here, and these entities are...
What are they? Demons are formed by their "gods". Demon Primarchs form what type of creature? The same as greater Demons? Or demon Princes? Or just a random figure?
If it would be that easy to have your own followship, Why should they have Abby have all the fun on the other side?
The glory of the Great Crusade gets whole series, the glory of chaos just a few novels. Now consider who isn't so glorious.
Void__Dragon wrote:
Well-oiled fighting machine? Were it so, then the Heresy would not have happened. The Horus Heresy occurred because the Imperium's leader was incompetent, arrogant, a bit of a dick, and foolish. And the resources of the Imperium have never been as limitless as the resources of Chaos.
The Heresy was needed for the story.
If the leader of the Imperium has those flaws you claim, the chaos primarchs are the epitome of their fathers flaws.
In the Emperor, things may be balanced, in his sons, the same may become condensed until nothing more is left and balance is lost.
Void__Dragon wrote:
In a discussion about which set of Primarchs had it worse, I would think we should care for him.
Although, Fulgrim, the Primarch, not the Daemon, also had a raw deal.
Gullyman already has too much showtime.
Fulgrim is his own audience, we will see if this eternal POW has it worse than his brothers.
- Ferrus - presumed dead. without a head, life isn't fun.
- Sanguinius - Dead. Was his own choice, so maybe not unhappy of it.
- Khan, Corax, Russ, etc - MIA . No fluff, no way to compare their fate to Fulgrims fate.
- Vulkan - left on his own ( MIA? ), but return possible. If he hasn't run into extreme trouble, hes better off than most of his brehtren.
- Dorn - Dead. - Like sanguinius, accepted his duty.
- Gulliman - in the freezer. do we know if it hurts?
- Lion. sleeping, thus one of the better fates. Stored away, but maybe no chance on a reload.
- Horus. - erased from existance in both realms. Worst fate. He was a blind fool who didn't see it coming.
- curze.- Dead. this obsession with vindication ... got him over the edge. Sanity lost.
- angron - always angry. Yay. Blandness is his name and violence his game. Lost to a temper is not worse than dead?
- Magnus. is busy. like that archwizard sitting in his tower and scheming of his return and vengeance on those who wronged him. Good?
- Perturabo - sitting there - and-- is he still alive? Didn't move for 10 millenia...
- mortarion. - another out of buisness character that is just important enough to have a line in a codex. Back into the fog of oblivion.
- lorgar - caught in writing pamphlets. Ruined it for his brothers, deserves the worst fate. But his empoyers may feel entertainent enough to keep him around for a while.
- alpharius / omegon. Who is the dead one and how?
- fulgrim - unable to act himself, the others are better off as he can't alter his fate.
Coa and Iproxtaco: its way past being relevant.
to cap it off i agree with Iprox... coa your first post was a bit confusing and borderline ignorant. mabye an attempt to drag the discussion down to your lvl? if thats the case then improxtacos arguement is very fitting.
back on topic:
As to the question at hand id say that none of the primarchs got the better of any other. its a full-on catastrophe, which is way more interesting then simply fanboying primarch x as being the man compared to any other.
1hadhq wrote:Vast immortal armies? Your thinking of Necrons here, not chaos.
The days of the primarchs are over, ( on usability in the fluff of M41 ), their age long gone and certainly the choice of some to vanish
( thus deemed MIA / KIA ) before their status as some sort of demi-god would turn out bad deserves more respect than the selfish bunch of demon primarchs who, just exist somewhere to do something and win/ lose something but it wouldn't matter if they died as nothing would change.
Wait, forgot nowadays they are used to cut names into them. In my time, we used trees for that.
The Daemons of Chaos are immortal, and they answer to the Daemon Primarchs.
I'm not sure what your point is. That the Loyalist Primarchs deserve more respect? Well, Lion El'Jonson and Leman Russ deserve no respect at all, but that's kind of not the point of this discussion.
Oh lovely, a Draigo joke.
1hadhq wrote:Any source for this incredible power? I mean, if they had so much power, they wouldn't obey...
Otoh, are you sure its not an illusion? Formed from thought, yes things formed like that tend to be unreal.
But, lets stick with your idea here, and these entities are...
What are they? Demons are formed by their "gods". Demon Primarchs form what type of creature? The same as greater Demons? Or demon Princes? Or just a random figure?
If it would be that easy to have your own followship, Why should they have Abby have all the fun on the other side?
The glory of the Great Crusade gets whole series, the glory of chaos just a few novels. Now consider who isn't so glorious.
You want me to prove the Daemon Primarchs have incredible power? Angron having 12 Bloodthirsters serving him as mere lieutenants not proof enough? Or Magnus casually dispelling the Rubric? Hell, Magnus could crush Titans dwarfing Warlord Titans before he was even a Daemon.
Am I sure what is not an illusion?
Daemon Primarchs are an ascended Daemonic being, elevated from their original level which already equalled that of a normal Greater Daemon, and enhanced even further.
Stop assuming that it has to happen in the Materium to be important. The Chaos Gods are more concerned with their wars in the Warp itself, which the Daemon Primarchs take part of.
It being more featured in Black Library doesn't equate to it being "grander," for lack of a better term. The Great Crusade was ultimately just a baby-step in what the C'tan accomplished eons before, the complete subjugation of the galaxy. The War in Heaven doesn't get one novel though. I'm not complaining about this, only pointing out that the Great Crusade getting more focus doesn't mean that the feats perpetrated in it are necessarily grander.
1hadhq wrote:The Heresy was needed for the story.
If the leader of the Imperium has those flaws you claim, the chaos primarchs are the epitome of their fathers flaws.
In the Emperor, things may be balanced, in his sons, the same may become condensed until nothing more is left and balance is lost.
The Heresy also was virtually brought onto the Emperor by himself. The Emperor was more arrogant than Magnus, and a bigger dick than Mortarion, your average undergrad from business school could have done a better job at managing than he did. Angron fell to Chaos almost entirely because of the Emperor being a dick, the Emperor could have easily saved Angron's fellow gladiators, but chose to save Angron alone so he would watch the men he fought and bled with be slaughtered, something Angron never forgave him for. That is but one specific example. In a more general example, the Emperor demanded mindless, unquestioning obedience from everyone, even his sons. Yet, he never stopped to think forcefully commanding others without ever telling anybody why, or telling anyone his plans, could turn out badly. That's really the Emperor's biggest fault, he expected unquestioning loyalty without ever bothering to give them a reason to give it, or explain to his sons what he was planning. Doing that would have kept Horus from beginning to resent his father making him Warmaster, and would have stopped Magnus from accidently destroying the Webway portals the Emperor was working on.
1hadhq wrote:Gullyman already has too much showtime.
Fulgrim is his own audience, we will see if this eternal POW has it worse than his brothers.
- Ferrus - presumed dead. without a head, life isn't fun.
- Sanguinius - Dead. Was his own choice, so maybe not unhappy of it.
- Khan, Corax, Russ, etc - MIA . No fluff, no way to compare their fate to Fulgrims fate.
- Vulkan - left on his own ( MIA? ), but return possible. If he hasn't run into extreme trouble, hes better off than most of his brehtren.
- Dorn - Dead. - Like sanguinius, accepted his duty.
- Gulliman - in the freezer. do we know if it hurts?
- Lion. sleeping, thus one of the better fates. Stored away, but maybe no chance on a reload.
- Horus. - erased from existance in both realms. Worst fate. He was a blind fool who didn't see it coming.
- curze.- Dead. this obsession with vindication ... got him over the edge. Sanity lost.
- angron - always angry. Yay. Blandness is his name and violence his game. Lost to a temper is not worse than dead?
- Magnus. is busy. like that archwizard sitting in his tower and scheming of his return and vengeance on those who wronged him. Good?
- Perturabo - sitting there - and-- is he still alive? Didn't move for 10 millenia...
- mortarion. - another out of buisness character that is just important enough to have a line in a codex. Back into the fog of oblivion.
- lorgar - caught in writing pamphlets. Ruined it for his brothers, deserves the worst fate. But his empoyers may feel entertainent enough to keep him around for a while.
- alpharius / omegon. Who is the dead one and how?
- fulgrim - unable to act himself, the others are better off as he can't alter his fate.
We know Guilliman is in pain because of how stasis works, you sense everything you felt before you were put in. In Guilliman's case, this is the agony of dying of poison.
Horus' fate is only arguably the worst, Fulgrim and Guilliman I would say got worse. Hell, I would say those who died have a raw deal too, since most human minds dissolve and can't retain consciousness when their soul enters the Warp. We know Eldar don't, and the Primarchs are each very likely latently psychic to a great degree. So they are conscious when their soul drifts in the Warp, or is eaten by a Greater Daemon, for instance.
Perturabo isn't doing much, but he doesn't need to. feth Guilliman, Horus, and the Lion, Perturabo is the best strategist of the Primarchs by far.
How do you figure being angry is worse than death? Also, Angron doesn't feel angry all the time, Berserkers in general can be calm outside of battle.
Edit: Oh yeah, Magnus the Red in Battle of the Fang apparently implies that Russ' current status is less than desirable.
The Daemons of Chaos are immortal, and they answer to the Daemon Primarchs.
Chaos isn't truly immortal. ( codex chaos demons describes the possibility of the end of chaos ).
Demons answer to their master, their Patron, their "god".
Demon Primarchs just have the favor of one of those Masters, Patrons, "Gods" and thus control over them.
There Isn't a gurantee they couldn't lose their position.
Void__Dragon wrote:
You want me to prove the Daemon Primarchs have incredible power?
Can you?
The minion Angron sent with 12 GD and they achieved...not that much? I think the orks wrecked that planet far worse.
Do orks now outmatch GD?
Void__Dragon wrote:
The Chaos Gods are more concerned with their wars in the Warp itself, which the Daemon Primarchs take part of.
Lets see. Where? Do these wars matter?
Seems the Demon-primarchs do exactly nothing worth reporting home. For starters, if pointless battles in pointless wars nobody ever wins,
which is what chaos does since none of the four has beaten his competitors finally yet.
I am still for a win, as per the codex mentioned above, chaos ceases to exist if one of them wins..
Void__Dragon wrote: In a more general example, the Emperor demanded mindless, unquestioning obedience from everyone, even his sons. Yet, he never stopped to think forcefully commanding others without ever telling anybody why, or telling anyone his plans, could turn out badly. That's really the Emperor's biggest fault, he expected unquestioning loyalty without ever bothering to give them a reason to give it, or explain to his sons what he was planning.
Sure he did.
Void__Dragon wrote:Perturabo isn't doing much, but he doesn't need to.
The fate of the unimportant and lazy.
Void__Dragon wrote: feth Guilliman, Horus, and the Lion, Perturabo is the best strategist of the Primarchs by far.
The perturbed one was never the greatest strategist.
Maybe a source for your claim could convince me...
OtoH we know he lost his homeworld to the treachery of the WB who started the rebellion there. Great strategist that is outwitted and
acts like a puppet on strings. Oh no they don't obey! Oh no we got angry and killed them all! Oh no lets join horus and be done with these petty mortals. Perturabo has lots of issues, and is surely good at siegework and fortress design. Still no chance to compete with the less specialized strategists.
Void__Dragon wrote:How do you figure being angry is worse than death? Also, Angron doesn't feel angry all the time, Berserkers in general can be calm outside of battle.
How many of his soon to be Legion did he kill until he accepted command? Sounds calm does it?
1hadhq wrote:Chaos isn't truly immortal. ( codex chaos demons describes the possibility of the end of chaos ).
Demons answer to their master, their Patron, their "god".
Demon Primarchs just have the favor of one of those Masters, Patrons, "Gods" and thus control over them.
There Isn't a gurantee they couldn't lose their position.
If you want to be technical not even the Necrons or their C'tan masters are "truly" immortal, C'tan have died, Chaos Gods could die (And being a Necron fan, I naturally do hope for it), but functionally, Daemons, the Chaos Gods, Necrons, and C'tan are immortal.
The Daemon Primarchs act as the proxy of their god on the battlefield, being among the most favored servants. Sure, they "could" lose their position, but they haven't, and to base your argument on speculation
1hadhq wrote:]Can you?
The minion Angron sent with 12 GD and they achieved...not that much? I think the orks wrecked that planet far worse.
Do orks now outmatch GD?
Armageddon was just the last of a long string of planets to be ravaged by Angron. Seventy sectors burned when Angron left the Warp. That's greater than any Waaagh! I can recall. And the First War for Armageddon resulted in a signifigant chunk of the population being effectively executed at the mere possibility that they could have so much as heard of the war.
I don't know if you are trolling, or really ignorant enough to question the fact that the Daemon Primarchs are powerful. Are they completely insurmountable? No. But they're some of the strongest beings in the setting not named Kaldor Draigo.
1hadhq wrote:Lets see. Where? Do these wars matter?
Seems the Demon-primarchs do exactly nothing worth reporting home. For starters, if pointless battles in pointless wars nobody ever wins,
which is what chaos does since none of the four has beaten his competitors finally yet.
I am still for a win, as per the codex mentioned above, chaos ceases to exist if one of them wins..
More than the Imperium's insignifigant wars ever could. The Imperium is so far down on Chaos' list of priorities it isn't even funny.
The setting doesn't delve much into the happenings of the Warp, that doesn't make the wars insignifigant. Ultimately, the turmoil in the galaxy is only fanned to fuel these so-called "pointless battles."
1hadhq wrote:Sure he did.
I accept your concession.
1hadhq wrote:The perturbed one was never the greatest strategist.
Maybe a source for your claim could convince me...
OtoH we know he lost his homeworld to the treachery of the WB who started the rebellion there. Great strategist that is outwitted and
acts like a puppet on strings. Oh no they don't obey! Oh no we got angry and killed them all! Oh no lets join horus and be done with these petty mortals. Perturabo has lots of issues, and is surely good at siegework and fortress design. Still no chance to compete with the less specialized strategists.
Yet he outwitted both the Lion and Dorn so pathetically easily.
1hadhq wrote:How many of his soon to be Legion did he kill until he accepted command? Sounds calm does it?
About six of his captains or so I think. And that happened kind of directly after the Emperor forced him to watch the men he considered brothers be slaughtered. If you notice, Angron also did in fact calm down, and through Kharn's calming words, he accepted command of his Legion.
You do realize that those Daemon primarch are basically pawns to chaos gods, who can kill them anytime they want they simply choose not too because they make great soldiers-
the good primarch maybe scattered, lost in the webway, dead or near death but they sure as hell don't have a master that can kill them at whim.
yevix wrote:You do realize that those Daemon primarch are basically pawns to chaos gods, who can kill them anytime they want they simply choose not too because they make great soldiers-
the good primarch maybe scattered, lost in the webway, dead or near death but they sure as hell don't have a master that can kill them at whim.
The Emperor came across just as harsh, except he makes you sift through the ashes of everything you've worked and strived for.
I don't really think that applying logic to the situation works. So in the fluff Angron and 12 GD rampaged on Armageddon achieving, ah yes nothing. But that has more to do with some heavy fluff armor. If Daemon Primarchs were as powerful as they SHOULD be the 40k universe the Empire would collapse and the game would be over.
They had a blast burning 70 sectors to the ground, until they were finally stopped by an enormous battle that claimed almost a full company of Grey Knight terminators (it was a score of bloodthirsters back in the Dark Millennium days, when did it become a dozen?). Sounds like the kind of stuff any daemon, much less one of Khorne, exists for.
I fail to see your point at all. How is an existence filled with constant war and conflict a bad thing for a creature created to fight and kill a bad thing? How is that worse than being dead (and thus food for warp predators)?
Also, the Daemon Primarchs cannot manifest in the material realm for very long, and when they can, it's rarely at their full power.
Omegus wrote:(it was a score of bloodthirsters back in the Dark Millennium days, when did it become a dozen?)
Off the top of my head, the Space Wolf codex gives the number as twelve Bloodthirster lieutenants.
And yeah, Angron burned seventy sectors in the 38th Millenium, and the Imperium as of present has regained what was it? 90% of the shattered territories back in the present?
Not exactly accomplishing "nothing," IMO.
The Daemon Primarchs don't leave the Immaterium much, but when they do, gak happens.
Even Mortarion was able to kill the Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights before Draigo as a Grand Master punked him.
Void__Dragon wrote:
Even Mortarion was able to kill the Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights before Draigo as a Grand Master punked him.
Draigos achievements seem to me more like a bedtime story to tell the gks before they enter battle. Besides, did someone take the time to record them for him in the time he was in the warp or? theres little source explanation on the fluff in general, and its not like the gks actually take time off to identify their targets before they kill them. conversing with greater daemons to know their names before you "punk" them? yearh right...
Dark Scipio wrote:No Chaos wanted the Imperium and more imporantly the EMperor destroyed for even more carnage and whorshipping. But the emperor was just to strong and the Rebel Primarchs proved to be a bunch of egomanic loosers.
And what about the Primarchs now? In the great crusade they conquered world after world. Now they are held in bay by the Imperium and get another Penalty-time in the Warp again and again.
No, that was what Horus wanted. Just because the gods offered him this doesn't mean they ever intended him to get it.
Yes, they are held at bay, but at great cost. Almost every surviving primarch, companies of GKs dead when Angron leaves the Warp, fluff massacred when Mortarion tries the same. And the Alpha Legion isn't actually in the Eye of Terror.
Void__Dragon wrote: and to base your argument on speculation
Only adapted to your style here...
Void__Dragon wrote: Armageddon was just the last of a long string of planets to be ravaged by Angron.
M38 - m41 > banned. i think he can't start anything soon.
Yes he seems to be the only active traitor - primarch. Maybe only skulls from the material realm count.
Void__Dragon wrote: Seventy sectors burned when Angron left the Warp. That's greater than any Waaagh! I can recall.
Ork waaghs don't last for hundreds of years and no one opts to join the orks so civil unrest and rebellions aren't as likely with ork waaghs as they are with chaos involved.
Void__Dragon wrote: I don't know if you are trolling, or really ignorant enough to question the fact that the Daemon Primarchs are powerful.
Nice.
Void__Dragon wrote: The Imperium is so far down on Chaos' list of priorities it isn't even funny.
Post a list.
Void__Dragon wrote: The setting doesn't delve much into the happenings of the Warp, that doesn't make the wars insignifigant. Ultimately, the turmoil in the galaxy is only fanned to fuel these so-called "pointless battles."
It does make the wars there insignificant. 40k focuses on the other side of the mirror, thus the warp is just a transport medium, a energy reservoir, a hideout for the traitors, etc etc. Chaos has nothing to do with ork waaghs, nid hive fleets or rising necrons. Tau are also not really influenced by chaos. DE? maybe.. Eldar could be misled and used.
The wars in the warp therefore are unimportant as the only desirable outcome of a war would happen in the material realm where
opponents stay dead and don't return. Plus chaos is interested in worshippers and the races outside their home turf can provide what the warp cannot.
Void__Dragon wrote: Yet he outwitted both the Lion and Dorn so pathetically easily.
When ?
The Lion's flaw is wellknown now, but I doubt perturbo could outwit him in a conflict. The first legion was one of the most successful legions, the 4th legion was just good enough for garrison duty.
Dorn was aware of the trap and stepped into it to spring it. Outwitted? If the ultras didn't interfere, there would no pertubo and no 4th legion anymore.
Void__Dragon wrote: If you notice, Angron also did in fact calm down, and through Kharn's calming words, he accepted command of his Legion.
Kharn barely survived that.
Angron was the only primarch to reject his command ( that we know of ). But he kept on altering his legion with copies of the implants he had.
Void__Dragon wrote:
yevix wrote:You do realize that those Daemon primarch are basically pawns to chaos gods
Describes most people in the setting.
The people in the setting are:
- nids? - orks? - necrons? - De/Eldar? -Tau+allies? - humans?
The majority of the beings in 40k aren't pawns of chaos.
Omegus wrote:They had a blast burning 70 sectors to the ground, until they were finally stopped by an enormous battle that claimed almost a full company of Grey Knight terminators Sounds like the kind of stuff any daemon, much less one of Khorne, exists for.
Armageddon was attacked later. 2000 years inbetween. And directly, straight out of the warp.
The 70 sectors are from "dominion of fire/ codex CSM" ?
The rampage of Angron in this event, aimed at 3 dozen systems and lasted 3oo years. He had a lots of WE with him, but still the aftermath of his assaults is what burnt 70 sectors. Wasn't fast, another 200 years and systems seceeding from the IoM combined with more warbands incoming to get a piece of the cake.
Void__Dragon wrote: I fail to see your point at all. How is an existence filled with constant war and conflict a bad thing for a creature created to fight and kill a bad thing? How is that worse than being dead ?
An existance where you can't win. Eternal boredom.
Void__Dragon wrote:
And yeah, Angron burned seventy sectors in the 38th Millenium, and the Imperium as of present has regained what was it? 90% of the shattered territories back in the present?
Not exactly accomplishing "nothing," IMO.
Angron didn't burn 70 sectors.
He may be the single example of success.
Where is the rest?
Nearly every race in the 40k universe is a slave to somthing.
Chaos Space Marines and Daemons - The Chaos Gods
Necrons - The C'tan
Space Marines - The Emperor
Tau - The greater good
Tyranids - Dont even have minds of their own
Eldar - Their obession to perfect their aspect(Some are slaves to khaine)
Dark Eldar - Their emotions/madness
I think the only truly free race are the orks they are just having a good time. But i guess you could say orks are slaves to their need to fight. I think Eldar, Dark Eldar and Daemon Prince's have it the best they may be slaves to somthing but at least they are immortal. I dont know all that much about the Imperial Guard but im guessing they are pretty loyal to the emperor.
Uhlan wrote:There is no glory in becoming a pawn of Chaos.
To suggest that the traitor primarchs have come out on top because they're still living is to ignore what they have become and the lives they live. I'm sure it isn't an altogether joyous experience no matter how 'cool' it might seem to be a demon.
Remember as well that Fulgrim is trapped within his own body by a demon. Forced to live out his existence in that way does not seem like a victory to me.
Void__Dragon wrote: Armageddon was just the last of a long string of planets to be ravaged by Angron.
M38 - m41 > banned. i think he can't start anything soon.
Yes he seems to be the only active traitor - primarch. Maybe only skulls from the material realm count.
Maybe it's just more enjoyable? No really, endlessly killing Daemonettes who are just re-born is a bit boring. Since Angron isn't likely to care too much about what his God wants, he's going to want to kill for real, do some damage to the empire he despises.
Void__Dragon wrote: Seventy sectors burned when Angron left the Warp. That's greater than any Waaagh! I can recall.
Ork waaghs don't last for hundreds of years and no one opts to join the orks so civil unrest and rebellions aren't as likely with ork waaghs as they are with chaos involved.
Excuses, really. Play to your strengths, Orkz have numbers, Chaos has the ability to insight rebellion. I'd doubt however that Angron and a horde of World Eaters are going to work cohesively with rebels, much like the Orkz to be fair.
Void__Dragon wrote: I don't know if you are trolling, or really ignorant enough to question the fact that the Daemon Primarchs are powerful.
Nice.
Well you are doubting the capabilites of the Daemon Primarchs.
Void__Dragon wrote: The Imperium is so far down on Chaos' list of priorities it isn't even funny.
Post a list.
The Great Game comes first. Then comes the actions of their servants and the status of their lands in the Warp. Then comes the actions of their servants in the Material realm. Then comes the general status of the mortal world, of which I'd say they have a mild indifference to most things, only really prioritizing opportunities to cause havoc occasionally and rarely taking an interest into what major events are happening.
Void__Dragon wrote: The setting doesn't delve much into the happenings of the Warp, that doesn't make the wars insignifigant. Ultimately, the turmoil in the galaxy is only fanned to fuel these so-called "pointless battles."
It does make the wars there insignificant. 40k focuses on the other side of the mirror, thus the warp is just a transport medium, a energy reservoir, a hideout for the traitors, etc etc. Chaos has nothing to do with ork waaghs, nid hive fleets or rising necrons. Tau are also not really influenced by chaos. DE? maybe.. Eldar could be misled and used.
The wars in the warp therefore are unimportant as the only desirable outcome of a war would happen in the material realm where
opponents stay dead and don't return. Plus chaos is interested in worshippers and the races outside their home turf can provide what the warp cannot.
Meaningless to those that are unaffected by them, which is no one. With the Wars in the Warp does the balance of power in the Game shift. It makes the Gods more and less powerful, makes their servants stronger, its their servants that cause the mayhem.
Void__Dragon wrote: Yet he outwitted both the Lion and Dorn so pathetically easily.
When ?
The Lion's flaw is wellknown now, but I doubt perturbo could outwit him in a conflict. The first legion was one of the most successful legions, the 4th legion was just good enough for garrison duty.
Dorn was aware of the trap and stepped into it to spring it. Outwitted? If the ultras didn't interfere, there would no pertubo and no 4th legion anymore.
Don't know about the Lion really, but Perturabo was said to have been a deeply bitter and tactical thinker, taking perverted pleasure in outwitting his brothers.
Dorn is simple though. Perturabo easily outwitted Dorn during at the Iron Cage.
Void__Dragon wrote:
yevix wrote:You do realize that those Daemon primarch are basically pawns to chaos gods
Describes most people in the setting.
The people in the setting are:
- nids? - orks? - necrons? - De/Eldar? -Tau+allies? - humans?
The majority of the beings in 40k aren't pawns of chaos.
They all can be pawns, Tau, Orkz and humans are all able to be manipulated easily enough due to their naivety and ignorance. The others not so much.
Omegus wrote:They had a blast burning 70 sectors to the ground, until they were finally stopped by an enormous battle that claimed almost a full company of Grey Knight terminators Sounds like the kind of stuff any daemon, much less one of Khorne, exists for.
Armageddon was attacked later. 2000 years inbetween. And directly, straight out of the warp.
The 70 sectors are from "dominion of fire/ codex CSM" ?
The rampage of Angron in this event, aimed at 3 dozen systems and lasted 3oo years. He had a lots of WE with him, but still the aftermath of his assaults is what burnt 70 sectors. Wasn't fast, another 200 years and systems seceeding from the IoM combined with more warbands incoming to get a piece of the cake.
Just sounds like a bunch of very thin excuses to me. Armageddon claimed billions of lives due to the actual invasion and the cull that went on afterward. Angron was only stopped by 100 Grey Knight Terminators. 100, and only a few survived. His other excursion burned 70 whole sectors. Go and find another example of 70 sectors being taken.
Void__Dragon wrote: I fail to see your point at all. How is an existence filled with constant war and conflict a bad thing for a creature created to fight and kill a bad thing? How is that worse than being dead ?
An existance where you can't win. Eternal boredom.
I fail to see your point at all. This existence is exactly what a creature created for constant war conflict wants. They won't get bored, and it's already a win for them. Edging on trolling to be perfectly honest.
Void__Dragon wrote:
And yeah, Angron burned seventy sectors in the 38th Millenium, and the Imperium as of present has regained what was it? 90% of the shattered territories back in the present?
Not exactly accomplishing "nothing," IMO.
Angron didn't burn 70 sectors.
He may be the single example of success.
Where is the rest?
They right?
Yes, him and his World Eaters. The Dominion of Fire took 70 sectors. The existence of the other is a success for them. They all have exactly what they want.
iproxtaco wrote:
Don't know about the Lion really, but Perturabo was said to have been a deeply bitter and tactical thinker, taking perverted pleasure in outwitting his brothers.
Dorn is simple though. Perturabo easily outwitted Dorn during at the Iron Cage.
IA: Imperial Fists
Dorn would not tolerate this. Without his customary caution and planning, Dorn led his men into the heart of the Iron Warrior defences. The battle should have favoured the treacherous trench-fighters, but the Imperial Fists endured. They countered every ambush and fought their way out of every trap. Rogal Dorn was a colossus who personally turned back attack after attack. Ammunition expended, Brothers fought in half-flooded trenches with combat knives, giving and expecting no quarter. Eventually it became apparent that the Iron Warriors could not finish them. For all their skill and ferocity, the Iron Warriors lacked the faith to make the ultimate sacrifice that victory demanded. While they paused, the Ultramarines intervened; Guilliman had decided that Perturabo's destruction was not worth the loss of Rogal Dorn and had brought his Chapter to drive off the Iron Warriors.
IA: Iron Warriors
If Perturabo had a failing it was that he had grown to eniov tormenting his enemies too much. He could have finished off the Imperial Fists at any time but chose not to. Fortunately for Rogal Dorn, Roboute Guilliman put the Impcnum before pride and had brought the Ultramarines to the rescue.
Different views on the same thing, Dorns failing on the Iron Cage incident is that he let his rage cloud his judgment.
Perturabo was definitely not a slouch though
Perturabo was a master of fortification whose writings had been retained by Guilliman in his Codex.
This may be attributable to his technical genius that was far in advance of any of the others. Perturabo could match wits with Adeptus Mechanicus Magi on anything from warp drives to macro cannons. This was reflected in the way his deeds are recorded in the legends passed down from those times
But does technical genius match tactical genius?
It's hard to comment on who out of the Primarchs has it worse, I think Angron is probably one of the happiest despite being banished for 100 years and a day and all. The majority of the Daemon Primarchs don't seem to have any concern with what goes on in the mortal plane anymore.
I can imagine Fulgrim isn't happy, if he is still trapped. I don't think Lorgar is happy either, knowing what he caused. Horus doesn't know anything, so he's nice and peaceful. Magnus probably has Russ locked in a cage somewhere. Peturabo is brooding on his mistakes. Alpharius is a bit of a dark horse, his agenda is a bit of a mystery. Nighthaunter is dead. Mortarion has a cold, so is also happy.
At least the Daemon Primarchs are up and about and able to do stuff. The loyalists that aren't dead are either being poked by nasty things in the warp or have bits of their anatomy in some kind of stasis, or whole bits in Guillimans case.
iproxtaco wrote:
Since Angron isn't likely to care too much about what his God wants, he's going to want to kill for real, do some damage to the empire he despises.
I see . The other primarchs lost any interest in this, just Angron can't get off it.
iproxtaco wrote:Well you are doubting the capabilites of the Daemon Primarchs.
Why not?
Is it heresy?
Did I miss the post where the capabilities of the Demon-Primarchs ( thus post heresy ) are shown?
Primarch "S", like more than just Angron if possible. Please.
iproxtaco wrote:
Don't know about the Lion really, but Perturabo was said to have been a deeply bitter and tactical thinker, taking perverted pleasure in outwitting his brothers.
Dorn is simple though. Perturabo easily outwitted Dorn during at the Iron Cage.
The excellence of the Primarchs is only hinted at, so yes its hard to put their abilities on confirmed levels.
But there is no doubt, the iron cage inherited the possibility that both Legions are destroyed and both Primarchs dead.
So Perturabo guessed right at Dorn' "love" for him. To spot the obvious...
iproxtaco wrote:They all can be pawns, Tau, Orkz and humans are all able to be manipulated easily enough due to their naivety and ignorance. The others not so much.
I like the order of this list.
iproxtaco wrote:
Armageddon claimed billions of lives due to the actual invasion and the cull that went on afterward. Angron was only stopped by 100 Grey Knight Terminators. 100, and only a few survived.
Angron wasn't alone there As the cc-specialist of the Primarchs, less than 100 GKt would be a shame.
iproxtaco wrote:His other excursion burned 70 whole sectors. Go and find another example of 70 sectors being taken.
Taken?.
Attacked and burnt without any consideration of taking the systems. If you count the secessionists and the other warbands,
Angron directly influenced the violence but didn't conquer 70 sectors.
How about a bit of honesty and a quote? Truth is, angron razed 3 dozen systems. 3 x12.
The aftermath of his incursion set 70 sectors on fire. Not the same thing.
Look at solar macharius. As a member of the imperial guard, he conquered a 1000 worlds, without demons or tons of space marines to back him up. I'd say there is more success to be had pre-heresy and some Primarchs may have burnt more than 70 setors in the great crusade.
iproxtaco wrote:
1hadhq wrote:
An existance where you can't win. Eternal boredom.
They won't get bored, and it's already a win for them. Edging on trolling to be perfectly honest.
iproxtaco wrote:No really, endlessly killing Daemonettes who are just re-born is a bit boring.
Identical statement but mine is not ok???
iproxtaco wrote: This existence is exactly what a creature created for constant war conflict wants.
Pure speculation. The Primarchs may have aimed for constant war as their daily bread & butter. May, because I wouldn't be too sure of it.
It were 20 of them and the 18 we know of were different enough in personality. Maybe one or more wouldn't mind an end to constant conflicts? The power hungry may have disliked times of "peace" ( i know, i said the bad word ), but exmples could be:
- Lorgar if he could have his way. Let him spread the word and he has no interest in wars. Just controlled applications of violence to keep the faithful focused and the unbelievers away.
- Gulliman if he had to organize supplies and recrutement. Fine he'd nerve everyone still with this codex he wrote, but I think he is the one who got a chance against the bureaucrats on their own turf.
- Dorn. Always follows orders. wouldn't need constant conflict. Just his Emperor to give him duties.
- Magnus. allow him to dig through every myth and secret and he is not interested in conflicts. War endangers also the remnants of wisdom and knowledge.
- some tech-savvy primarchs like ferrus or vulkan could focus on innovation and the reclamation of archeotech. Nothing hints on any suggestion they want constant war.
thats just a small first batch I can think of.
Except the bloody Angron and maybe the glory-hog horus, most Primarchs could live with the tides of war&peace.
Constant conflict isn't neccessary nor wanted.
Fulgrim chose oblivion. The daemon was simply creative in its implementation.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
1hadhq wrote:
iproxtaco wrote:Well you are doubting the capabilites of the Daemon Primarchs.
Why not?
Is it heresy?
Did I miss the post where the capabilities of the Demon-Primarchs ( thus post heresy ) are shown?
Primarch "S", like more than just Angron if possible. Please.
It's not heresy, it's just colossally stupid.
But if you want an example, check out Magnus after he manifested through one of his captains in Battle for the Fang. He effortlessly strides through defenses that had kept a whole army at bay for days. The Wolves unleash "enough firepower to level a whole company of traitor marines" and fail to even singe his robes. He carves through half a dozen dreadnoughts like they were toys. The big fancy-pants Rune Priest that had been bitchslapping tanks with his storm powers steps up, and Magnus pops him like a grape with a sideways glance. Basically, imagine Space Wolves miniatures vs. a 5-year old after a double espresso.
iproxtaco wrote:
Since Angron isn't likely to care too much about what his God wants, he's going to want to kill for real, do some damage to the empire he despises.
I see . The other primarchs lost any interest in this, just Angron can't get off it.
I suppose, although the ending of one of the Word Bearers books hints that at least one other might take a major interest in the future. Can you guess which one?
iproxtaco wrote:Well you are doubting the capabilites of the Daemon Primarchs.
Why not?
Is it heresy?
Did I miss the post where the capabilities of the Demon-Primarchs ( thus post heresy ) are shown?
Primarch "S", like more than just Angron if possible. Please.
They're highly powerful Daemon Princes. I don't think there needs to be too much more discussion. They Daemons on par or greater than the Greater Daemons, Angron does have a posse of Bloodthirsters. They obviously command a large amount of respect amongst the Dark Gods servants and the Traitor Legions. They're favored of their Gods, considering they've been elevated to Daemonhood.
iproxtaco wrote:
Don't know about the Lion really, but Perturabo was said to have been a deeply bitter and tactical thinker, taking perverted pleasure in outwitting his brothers.
Dorn is simple though. Perturabo easily outwitted Dorn during at the Iron Cage.
The excellence of the Primarchs is only hinted at, so yes its hard to put their abilities on confirmed levels.
But there is no doubt, the iron cage inherited the possibility that both Legions are destroyed and both Primarchs dead.
So Perturabo guessed right at Dorn' "love" for him. To spot the obvious...
I think there is doubt. The Imperial Fists were led into a trap, separated and pinned-down and were unable to fight for 19 years afterwards. The Ultramarines were required to save the Fists. The Iron Warriors escaped and built their own little holiday retreat in the Eye of Terror.
iproxtaco wrote:They all can be pawns, Tau, Orkz and humans are all able to be manipulated easily enough due to their naivety and ignorance. The others not so much.
I like the order of this list.
Not sure if you responded to the wrong quote.
iproxtaco wrote:
Armageddon claimed billions of lives due to the actual invasion and the cull that went on afterward. Angron was only stopped by 100 Grey Knight Terminators. 100, and only a few survived.
Angron wasn't alone there As the cc-specialist of the Primarchs, less than 100 GKt would be a shame.
So you admit he's that powerful now?
iproxtaco wrote:His other excursion burned 70 whole sectors. Go and find another example of 70 sectors being taken.
Taken?.
Attacked and burnt without any consideration of taking the systems. If you count the secessionists and the other warbands,
Angron directly influenced the violence but didn't conquer 70 sectors.
How about a bit of honesty and a quote? Truth is, angron razed 3 dozen systems. 3 x12.
The aftermath of his incursion set 70 sectors on fire. Not the same thing.
Look at solar macharius. As a member of the imperial guard, he conquered a 1000 worlds, without demons or tons of space marines to back him up. I'd say there is more success to be had pre-heresy and some Primarchs may have burnt more than 70 setors in the great crusade.
Taken, destroyed, burnt, the word doesn't matter, they were no longer in under the control of the Imperium due to Angron's crusade.
Great, Solar Macharius obviously did that all by himself, didn't he? Flawed comparison is flawed. He had a silly amount of Guard Regiments and warships.
iproxtaco wrote:
1hadhq wrote:
An existance where you can't win. Eternal boredom.
They won't get bored, and it's already a win for them. Edging on trolling to be perfectly honest.
iproxtaco wrote:No really, endlessly killing Daemonettes who are just re-born is a bit boring.
Identical statement but mine is not ok???
Mix the order up and take them out of context, good job.
iproxtaco wrote: This existence is exactly what a creature created for constant war conflict wants.
Pure speculation. The Primarchs may have aimed for constant war as their daily bread & butter. May, because I wouldn't be too sure of it.
It were 20 of them and the 18 we know of were different enough in personality. Maybe one or more wouldn't mind an end to constant conflicts? The power hungry may have disliked times of "peace" ( i know, i said the bad word ), but exmples could be:
Referring to Angron really, or most of the Daemon Primarchs with a few exceptions.
- Lorgar if he could have his way. Let him spread the word and he has no interest in wars. Just controlled applications of violence to keep the faithful focused and the unbelievers away.
The one exception, although a holy war against non-beleivers is a fine way for him to exist.
- Gulliman if he had to organize supplies and recrutement. Fine he'd nerve everyone still with this codex he wrote, but I think he is the one who got a chance against the bureaucrats on their own turf.
- Dorn. Always follows orders. wouldn't need constant conflict. Just his Emperor to give him duties.
- Magnus. allow him to dig through every myth and secret and he is not interested in conflicts. War endangers also the remnants of wisdom and knowledge.
- some tech-savvy primarchs like ferrus or vulkan could focus on innovation and the reclamation of archeotech. Nothing hints on any suggestion they want constant war.
Most of the rest are dead or missing, Magnus is quite happy with eternal war.
thats just a small first batch I can think of.
Except the bloody Angron and maybe the glory-hog horus, most Primarchs could live with the tides of war&peace.
Constant conflict isn't neccessary nor wanted.
Well, it is. It's one of Lorgar's key character elements, being the only Primarch who didn't want to be a soldier, who doesn't relish in combat and war. Now however, he'd relish prosecuting a holy war.
If you were adapting to my style, you wouldn't base your argument on speculation. Silly. :3
1hadhq wrote:M38 - m41 > banned. i think he can't start anything soon.
Yes he seems to be the only active traitor - primarch. Maybe only skulls from the material realm count.
Not anything on the material realm, probably not. It takes a good deal of power to summon a Daemon Primarch.
And Mortarion and Magnus have both left. Mortarion dealt the Grey Knights a heavy toll before Draigo banished him, killing the previous Supreme Grand Master. Magnus destroyed the research of fixing the geneseed of the Space Wolves.
1hadhq wrote:Ork waaghs don't last for hundreds of years and no one opts to join the orks so civil unrest and rebellions aren't as likely with ork waaghs as they are with chaos involved.
Point? The Dominion of Fire (I was admittedly confused and thought the First War for Armageddon directly succeeded that) caused more damage than any Ork Waaagh! except arguably Ghazghkull's. Angron and his forces burned three dozens systems by himself, that he incited rebellions and destroyed seventy sectors with the afterburn of his personal rampage is just a testament of the Daemon Primarch's power.
1hadhq wrote:Nice.
I thought so too.
No, but, seriously, you're really questioning that the Daemon Primarchs are powerful? They were powerful before they ever became Daemons.
Angron's Dominion of Fire is some post-heresy showings, oh, and Magnus of course casually dispelling the Rubric of Ahriman. Omegus provided you with some feats from Battle of the Fang I was not aware of.
But even when they were "merely" Primarchs Angron could weather Lascannon fire, as could Corax, and Magnus could destroy Titans personally, as well as destroying the surface of Prospero.
1hadhq wrote:Post a list.
Nah, already been done for me. It lets me be lazy.
But the Great Game is at the top of the Chaos Gods' priorities, above all else.
1hadhq wrote:It does make the wars there insignificant. 40k focuses on the other side of the mirror, thus the warp is just a transport medium, a energy reservoir, a hideout for the traitors, etc etc. Chaos has nothing to do with ork waaghs, nid hive fleets or rising necrons. Tau are also not really influenced by chaos. DE? maybe.. Eldar could be misled and used.
The wars in the warp therefore are unimportant as the only desirable outcome of a war would happen in the material realm where
opponents stay dead and don't return. Plus chaos is interested in worshippers and the races outside their home turf can provide what the warp cannot.
The war directly affect the Immaterium, the Materium is just as bound to the Immaterium as the Immaterium is to it. What affects on affects the other. Chaos is currently the greatest threat to the Imperium at the moment, and the wars in the Warp dictate the strength of the gods. Which can kind of change the Daemons and followers of a given gods' lot in life. So they do have a motivation to fight.
The only real interest the Chaos Gods have in the Materium is in who can provide them more power. Power to fuel their wars in the Warp.
The War in Heaven has like three pages going over it, yet what happened then resulted in much of current 40k. Just because something is not the focus doesn't mean it isn't important.
1hadhq wrote:When ?
The Lion's flaw is wellknown now, but I doubt perturbo could outwit him in a conflict. The first legion was one of the most successful legions, the 4th legion was just good enough for garrison duty.
Dorn was aware of the trap and stepped into it to spring it. Outwitted? If the ultras didn't interfere, there would no pertubo and no 4th legion anymore.
Perturabo: Gimme your tanks and I'll support you for Warmaster.
Lion: Well that sounds completely fair and reasonable, Perturabo, possibly the least-liked and most suspect alleged loyalist Primarch. Just promise me they'll be put to good use.
Perturabo: Oh, don't worry. They will. *trollface*
I was mostly joking, for the record.
1hadhq wrote:Kharn barely survived that.
Angron was the only primarch to reject his command ( that we know of ). But he kept on altering his legion with copies of the implants he had.
Kharn is lucky he survived at all.
Angron rejected his command because he never wanted to lead a Legion for the Emperor. He wanted to fight alongside the men he bonded with and die a glorious death. The Emperor didn't just take the glory from him, he made him watch his men get slaughtered. I think we can forgive him for being a little upset about that.
1hadhq wrote:The people in the setting are:
- nids? - orks? - necrons? - De/Eldar? -Tau+allies? - humans?
The majority of the beings in 40k aren't pawns of chaos.
Necrons aren't pawns of Chaos by virtue of being slaves of the C'tan. And not being people, same with Tyranids.
Orks, Eldar, Tau, and humans certainly can be pawns of Chaos and have been used as such.
1hadhq wrote:Armageddon was attacked later. 2000 years inbetween. And directly, straight out of the warp.
The 70 sectors are from "dominion of fire/ codex CSM" ?
The rampage of Angron in this event, aimed at 3 dozen systems and lasted 3oo years. He had a lots of WE with him, but still the aftermath of his assaults is what burnt 70 sectors. Wasn't fast, another 200 years and systems seceeding from the IoM combined with more warbands incoming to get a piece of the cake.
Yeah, doublechecked, you're right. But three dozen systems is still more fruitful than most Ork Waaaghs, not sure why you are so determined to argue against this.
1hadhq wrote:Angron didn't burn 70 sectors.
He may be the single example of success.
Where is the rest?
They right?
He initiated the conflict that burned the sectors. Close enough.
They mostly war in the Warp, but I mentioned Magnus and Mortarion.
1hadhq wrote:Taken?.
Attacked and burnt without any consideration of taking the systems. If you count the secessionists and the other warbands,
Angron directly influenced the violence but didn't conquer 70 sectors.
How about a bit of honesty and a quote? Truth is, angron razed 3 dozen systems. 3 x12.
The aftermath of his incursion set 70 sectors on fire. Not the same thing.
Look at solar macharius. As a member of the imperial guard, he conquered a 1000 worlds, without demons or tons of space marines to back him up. I'd say there is more success to be had pre-heresy and some Primarchs may have burnt more than 70 setors in the great crusade.
Macharius had far more resources and men than 50,000 Berserkers, and wasn't battling the Imperium of Man either. It's not like Macharius did it alone, and he did it through brilliant strategy, rather than fury and martial power.
1hadhq wrote:Pure speculation. The Primarchs may have aimed for constant war as their daily bread & butter. May, because I wouldn't be too sure of it.
It were 20 of them and the 18 we know of were different enough in personality. Maybe one or more wouldn't mind an end to constant conflicts? The power hungry may have disliked times of "peace" ( i know, i said the bad word ), but exmples could be:
- Lorgar if he could have his way. Let him spread the word and he has no interest in wars. Just controlled applications of violence to keep the faithful focused and the unbelievers away.
- Magnus. allow him to dig through every myth and secret and he is not interested in conflicts. War endangers also the remnants of wisdom and knowledge.
Except the bloody Angron and maybe the glory-hog horus, most Primarchs could live with the tides of war&peace.
Constant conflict isn't neccessary nor wanted.
Lorgar couldn't do that under the Emperor. In fact, the Emperor explicitly forbid it, and brutally chastised him for it. But the Chaos Gods not only allowed it, they rewarded him for it. Lorgar is very much content.
Magnus couldn't do that either, the Emperor forbade it. Though, that's not why Magnus turned. But Magnus seems to be under the impression he is better off than Leman Russ.
Mortarion desired a world where the strong ruled the weak, did he not? Now he owns a world where that is the case. Ironic that one of the more sinister primarchs serves Nurgle.
Perturabo was mostly butthurt about being pigeon-holed, and there is basically no fluff on him after the Heresy so it is hard to say how he is.
With Alpharius/Omegon, it's impossible to be sure what's up with them.
Fulgrim (The Primarch) did get a very raw deal though.
Justicar Cliesthenes wrote:Does anyone else think that the loyal primarchs got completely wrecked by the rebel Primarchs? I mean about 7 of the Rebel ones are Greater Demons and may still be alive while all of the Loyal ones are either MIa or KIA. I mean seriously, how didn't the Chaos Marines win, they had numbers and were getting through the fortress. They probably could've held off the loyalists coming too. WHat are your guys' thoughts?
You can't BECOME a greater daemon, you can only BECOME a daemon prince. Greater daemon are pure daemon sauce, DP are mortals made into daemons.
The loyalist primarchs had to all die off or go into hiding or off on great hunts. If they hadn't they still be present in the 41st millenia and thus would likely need stats for campaigns, apocalypse, etc. I think they were dealt with to keep them out of the game's timeline. think of it as the opposite of plot armor to balance the game.
The_Stormrider wrote:The loyalist primarchs had to all die off or go into hiding or off on great hunts. If they hadn't they still be present in the 41st millenia and thus would likely need stats for campaigns, apocalypse, etc. I think they were dealt with to keep them out of the game's timeline. think of it as the opposite of plot armor to balance the game.
That's what I've always suspected.
Because in some fluff primarchs get owned by a pair of termies, in others they cut through hundreds of astartes without even breaking a sweat.
I think that's how the majority of GW fluff works. Otherwise we'd probably have custodes, ad mech and others. Wanting to put them in the game is also probably why GW made the C'tan weaker than they were however many hundreds of thousands of years ago.
Void__Dragon wrote:Perturabo: Gimme your tanks and I'll support you for Warmaster.
Lion: Well that sounds completely fair and reasonable, Perturabo, possibly the least-liked and most suspect alleged loyalist Primarch. Just promise me they'll be put to good use.
Perturabo: Oh, don't worry. They will. *trollface*
I was mostly joking, for the record.
Why joke? That's pretty much verbatim what happened.
Void__Dragon wrote:The Heresy also was virtually brought onto the Emperor by himself. The Emperor was more arrogant than Magnus, and a bigger dick than Mortarion, your average undergrad from business school could have done a better job at managing than he did. Angron fell to Chaos almost entirely because of the Emperor being a dick, the Emperor could have easily saved Angron's fellow gladiators, but chose to save Angron alone so he would watch the men he fought and bled with be slaughtered, something Angron never forgave him for. That is but one specific example. In a more general example, the Emperor demanded mindless, unquestioning obedience from everyone, even his sons. Yet, he never stopped to think forcefully commanding others without ever telling anybody why, or telling anyone his plans, could turn out badly. That's really the Emperor's biggest fault, he expected unquestioning loyalty without ever bothering to give them a reason to give it, or explain to his sons what he was planning. Doing that would have kept Horus from beginning to resent his father making him Warmaster, and would have stopped Magnus from accidently destroying the Webway portals the Emperor was working on.
The Emperor and the primarchs are written as Homeric heroes, epic, tragic, larger-than-life characters shaped and guided by forces alien to mere mortals; it's pointless - and frankly disingenuous - to expect psychological realism from them. The Great Crusade and Horus Heresy serve the purpose of providing a mythic backdrop - a 'golden age' and a 'war in heaven', to use anthropologists' terms - to the grim, fallen era of Warhammer 40,000's present, and the primarchs serve the dramatic purpose of providing titanic figures in whose shadows the warriors of the M41 fight, and the foci of eschatological prophecies and 'king under the mountain' myths.
The traitor primarchs have done next to nothing of lasting import in the ten thousand years since the heresy - as much as anything because the essentials of the setting's background had been established several years before the primarchs were introduced. The heresy and the primarchs aren't even mentioned in the 1st edition rulebook, and the original Epic Space Marine game, set in M31, provided only sketchy details about the conflict's progress and its resolution. It has been only recently, with the publication of the Horus Heresy novels, that fans have started obsessing over them; unless Games Workshop decide to go all White Wolf and actually destroy their own setting, we won't see them act again, or witness the resolutions to their stories.
Omegus wrote:
But if you want an example, check out Magnus after he manifested through one of his captains in Battle for the Fang.
thanks. Don't own Battle of the Fang.
iproxtaco wrote:
I suppose, although the ending of one of the Word Bearers books hints that at least one other might take a major interest in the future. Can you guess which one?
Can't, as again, I don't have every book. Maybe a hint?
iproxtaco wrote:The Iron Warriors escaped and built their own little holiday retreat in the Eye of Terror.
thats holiday for you?
ok..
iproxtaco wrote:Great, Solar Macharius obviously did that all by himself, didn't he? Flawed comparison is flawed. He had a silly amount of Guard Regiments and warships.
Yes, solar macharius was great.
Yes, Angron had silly amounts of traitors, mutants, etc etc
Void__Dragon wrote:
It's not like Macharius did it alone, and he did it through brilliant strategy, rather than fury and martial power.
Omegus wrote:
But if you want an example, check out Magnus after he manifested through one of his captains in Battle for the Fang.
thanks. Don't own Battle of the Fang.
Omegus described what happened pretty well. Magnus simply waded through the Space Wolves defenses without any trouble at all, defenses that had kept his army at bay for days.
iproxtaco wrote:
I suppose, although the ending of one of the Word Bearers books hints that at least one other might take a major interest in the future. Can you guess which one?
Can't, as again, I don't have every book. Maybe a hint?
Spoiler:
Essentially, Lorgar was contemplating overpowering Abaddon for control of the Forces of Chaos. Whether he's capable of doing such is a unknown.
iproxtaco wrote:The Iron Warriors escaped and built their own little holiday retreat in the Eye of Terror.
thats holiday for you?
ok..
For the Iron Warriors it is. An entire planet they can build into a fortress.
iproxtaco wrote:Great, Solar Macharius obviously did that all by himself, didn't he? Flawed comparison is flawed. He had a silly amount of Guard Regiments and warships.
Yes, solar macharius was great.
Yes, Angron had silly amounts of traitors, mutants, etc etc
Already kind of said, but I doubt that Angron had any support from rebels. He leads a huge horde of mercilless unthinking killers, all he and they care about is killing, there would be little in the way of strategy.
Again though, flawed comparison is flawed, Angron had the support of his Legion and some Daemons, Solar Macharius had the support a LOT of forces, exponentially more than Angron.
Omegus wrote:
But if you want an example, check out Magnus after he manifested through one of his captains in Battle for the Fang.
thanks. Don't own Battle of the Fang.
Omegus described what happened pretty well. Magnus simply waded through the Space Wolves defenses without any trouble at all, defenses that had kept his army at bay for days.
iproxtaco wrote:
I suppose, although the ending of one of the Word Bearers books hints that at least one other might take a major interest in the future. Can you guess which one?
Can't, as again, I don't have every book. Maybe a hint?
Spoiler:
Essentially, Lorgar was contemplating overpowering Abaddon for control of the Forces of Chaos. Whether he's capable of doing such is a unknown.
iproxtaco wrote:The Iron Warriors escaped and built their own little holiday retreat in the Eye of Terror.
thats holiday for you?
ok..
For the Iron Warriors it is. An entire planet they can build into a fortress.
iproxtaco wrote:Great, Solar Macharius obviously did that all by himself, didn't he? Flawed comparison is flawed. He had a silly amount of Guard Regiments and warships.
Yes, solar macharius was great.
Yes, Angron had silly amounts of traitors, mutants, etc etc
Already kind of said, but I doubt that Angron had any support from rebels. He leads a huge horde of mercilless unthinking killers, all he and they care about is killing, there would be little in the way of strategy.
Again though, flawed comparison is flawed, Angron had the support of his Legion and some Daemons, Solar Macharius had the support a LOT of forces, exponentially more than Angron.
EXPONENTIALLY more? WHAT are you talking about? Angron was one of the twenty supreme warrior-god commanders of the entire Imperium, during one of it's two golden ages. Macharius was one of several supreme commanders during an age where the Imperium is clinging to life, and trying not to become extinguished.
Angron commanded 15,000 genetically engineered supersoldiers, equivalent to more than a million regular soldiers, plus more than a million regular soldiers attached to his crusade fleet, plus titan detachments, plus cataphractii, plus knights, plus himself, who would be equivalent AT LEAST to a guard regiment.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @ Magnus, he also got owned by a pair of terminators and a dreadnought, alone.
Omegus wrote:
But if you want an example, check out Magnus after he manifested through one of his captains in Battle for the Fang.
thanks. Don't own Battle of the Fang.
Omegus described what happened pretty well. Magnus simply waded through the Space Wolves defenses without any trouble at all, defenses that had kept his army at bay for days.
iproxtaco wrote:
I suppose, although the ending of one of the Word Bearers books hints that at least one other might take a major interest in the future. Can you guess which one?
Can't, as again, I don't have every book. Maybe a hint?
Spoiler:
Essentially, Lorgar was contemplating overpowering Abaddon for control of the Forces of Chaos. Whether he's capable of doing such is a unknown.
iproxtaco wrote:The Iron Warriors escaped and built their own little holiday retreat in the Eye of Terror.
thats holiday for you?
ok..
For the Iron Warriors it is. An entire planet they can build into a fortress.
iproxtaco wrote:Great, Solar Macharius obviously did that all by himself, didn't he? Flawed comparison is flawed. He had a silly amount of Guard Regiments and warships.
Yes, solar macharius was great.
Yes, Angron had silly amounts of traitors, mutants, etc etc
Already kind of said, but I doubt that Angron had any support from rebels. He leads a huge horde of mercilless unthinking killers, all he and they care about is killing, there would be little in the way of strategy.
Again though, flawed comparison is flawed, Angron had the support of his Legion and some Daemons, Solar Macharius had the support a LOT of forces, exponentially more than Angron.
EXPONENTIALLY more? WHAT are you talking about? Angron was one of the twenty supreme warrior-god commanders of the entire Imperium, during one of it's two golden ages. Macharius was one of several supreme commanders during an age where the Imperium is clinging to life, and trying not to become extinguished.
Angron commanded 15,000 genetically engineered supersoldiers, equivalent to more than a million regular soldiers, plus more than a million regular soldiers attached to his crusade fleet, plus titan detachments, plus cataphractii, plus knights, plus himself, who would be equivalent AT LEAST to a guard regiment.
@ Magnus, he also got owned by a pair of terminators and a dreadnought, alone.
Hmm. I'm tempted to just shout troll and leave it there. You show base misunderstanding of the discussion. During the Dominion of Fire, Angron did not control his Crusade fleet, he commanded his World Eaters, most of them, anything else is pure speculation.
Just to conclude, it took 100 Grey Knight Terminators to stop Angron and his retinue, of which only 2 survived. It took A Wold Priest, a Wolf Lord, one of which was armed with the weapon of his Primarch, and an extremely powerful Dreadnought to take out Magnus after he had walked through the Fangs defences.
Omegus wrote:
But if you want an example, check out Magnus after he manifested through one of his captains in Battle for the Fang.
thanks. Don't own Battle of the Fang.
Omegus described what happened pretty well. Magnus simply waded through the Space Wolves defenses without any trouble at all, defenses that had kept his army at bay for days.
iproxtaco wrote:
I suppose, although the ending of one of the Word Bearers books hints that at least one other might take a major interest in the future. Can you guess which one?
Can't, as again, I don't have every book. Maybe a hint?
Spoiler:
Essentially, Lorgar was contemplating overpowering Abaddon for control of the Forces of Chaos. Whether he's capable of doing such is a unknown.
iproxtaco wrote:The Iron Warriors escaped and built their own little holiday retreat in the Eye of Terror.
thats holiday for you?
ok..
For the Iron Warriors it is. An entire planet they can build into a fortress.
iproxtaco wrote:Great, Solar Macharius obviously did that all by himself, didn't he? Flawed comparison is flawed. He had a silly amount of Guard Regiments and warships.
Yes, solar macharius was great.
Yes, Angron had silly amounts of traitors, mutants, etc etc
Already kind of said, but I doubt that Angron had any support from rebels. He leads a huge horde of mercilless unthinking killers, all he and they care about is killing, there would be little in the way of strategy.
Again though, flawed comparison is flawed, Angron had the support of his Legion and some Daemons, Solar Macharius had the support a LOT of forces, exponentially more than Angron.
EXPONENTIALLY more? WHAT are you talking about? Angron was one of the twenty supreme warrior-god commanders of the entire Imperium, during one of it's two golden ages. Macharius was one of several supreme commanders during an age where the Imperium is clinging to life, and trying not to become extinguished.
Angron commanded 15,000 genetically engineered supersoldiers, equivalent to more than a million regular soldiers, plus more than a million regular soldiers attached to his crusade fleet, plus titan detachments, plus cataphractii, plus knights, plus himself, who would be equivalent AT LEAST to a guard regiment.
@ Magnus, he also got owned by a pair of terminators and a dreadnought, alone.
Hmm. I'm tempted to just shout troll and leave it there. You show base misunderstanding of the discussion. During the Dominion of Fire, Angron did not control his Crusade fleet, he commanded his World Eaters, most of them, anything else is pure speculation.
Just to conclude, it took 100 Grey Knight Terminators to stop Angron and his retinue, of which only 2 survived. It took A Wold Priest, a Wolf Lord, one of which was armed with the weapon of his Primarch, and an extremely powerful Dreadnought to take out Magnus after he had walked through the Fangs defences.
:$ I was thinking about the crusade.
Either way, he had 50,000 KB during the dominion of blood.
And I know Primarchs are powerful, I am not disputing that, It is simply a fact that Macharius was as talented a tactician as any of them, but other than that they are so far and above anything else in the fluff other than gods.
Essentially, Lorgar was contemplating overpowering Abaddon for control of the Forces of Chaos. Whether he's capable of doing such is a unknown.
Interesting find.
iproxtaco wrote:Already kind of said, but I doubt that Angron had any support from rebels. He leads a huge horde of mercilless unthinking killers, all he and they care about is killing, there would be little in the way of strategy. Again though, flawed comparison is flawed, Angron had the support of his Legion and some Daemons, Solar Macharius had the support a LOT of forces, exponentially more than Angron.
Agreed your guess on Macharius forces is flawed. Solar Macharius had 7 years and conquered 1000 worlds. Conquered, not kill,maim,burn, like Angron may have done.
First, the demon primarch was stated to have tons of demons at his command, now the IG should be exponentially outnumbering the potentially unlimited numbers of demons? I'd say Macharius used strategy and basic soldiers of the IG and had a lot of success in a few years. He got 7 armies ( heeresgruppen ). Each may be some dozen regiments. Angron had his legion with him ( tens of thousands of WE ), ( demons? ), and 300 years to raze 3 dozen systems. Shall we do the math?
1000 in 7x365 = 2,55 days per world. 36 x ( 5 worlds per system? ) 5 = 180 180 in 300x365 = 608,33 days per world.
So Macharius conquered a world in ~ 2,55 days Angron razed a world in ~ 608,33 days
Therefore the IG can move, annex, and move on in a few days. A oh so powerful demon primarch is lost to his temper each time he steps on the soil of a planet and takes nearly 2 years to kill everything ( bacteria too maybe? ) on a world.
Seems the overall power of a demon primarch isn't higher than the power of a GFM of the IoM. Why is that so? Because the GFM still is backed up by the IoM. A backup the former leader of a Legion of Imperial space Marines had too.
Demonhood may raise the personal power a bit. It does nothing for overall power, its rather counter-productive too as chaos isn't as organized as the formations in the GC were and the infighting gets you a lot of untrustworthy allies.
English Assassin wrote:The Emperor and the primarchs are written as Homeric heroes, epic, tragic, larger-than-life characters shaped and guided by forces alien to mere mortals; it's pointless - and frankly disingenuous - to expect psychological realism from them. The Great Crusade and Horus Heresy serve the purpose of providing a mythic backdrop - a 'golden age' and a 'war in heaven', to use anthropologists' terms - to the grim, fallen era of Warhammer 40,000's present, and the primarchs serve the dramatic purpose of providing titanic figures in whose shadows the warriors of the M41 fight, and the foci of eschatological prophecies and 'king under the mountain' myths.
The traitor primarchs have done next to nothing of lasting import in the ten thousand years since the heresy - as much as anything because the essentials of the setting's background had been established several years before the primarchs were introduced. The heresy and the primarchs aren't even mentioned in the 1st edition rulebook, and the original Epic Space Marine game, set in M31, provided only sketchy details about the conflict's progress and its resolution. It has been only recently, with the publication of the Horus Heresy novels, that fans have started obsessing over them; unless Games Workshop decide to go all White Wolf and actually destroy their own setting, we won't see them act again, or witness the resolutions to their stories.
I didn't see the part that justified the Emperor being a fool and a, for lack of better term, jerkass. Beyond that, I can expect psychological realmis because the Horus Heresy paints a clear picture of the internal workings of the Primarchs and the Emperor's, providing the reasoning behind their actions. Unless I misunderstand what your point is?
In the Materium. Narratively, they may not be as relevant now, but in-universe, they are very relevant in the Immaterium. Though, I am well aware that the Primarchs won't show up in the near future, in all likelihood.
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1hadhq wrote:Agreed your guess on Macharius forces is flawed.
Solar Macharius had 7 years and conquered 1000 worlds.
Conquered, not kill,maim,burn, like Angron may have done.
First, the demon primarch was stated to have tons of demons at his command, now the IG should be exponentially outnumbering the potentially unlimited numbers of demons?
I'd say Macharius used strategy and basic soldiers of the IG and had a lot of success in a few years.
He got 7 armies ( heeresgruppen ). Each may be some dozen regiments.
Angron had his legion with him ( tens of thousands of WE ), ( demons? ), and 300 years to raze 3 dozen systems. Shall we do the math?
1000 in 7x365 = 2,55 days per world.
36 x ( 5 worlds per system? ) 5 = 180
180 in 300x365 = 608,33 days per world.
So Macharius conquered a world in ~ 2,55 days
Angron razed a world in ~ 608,33 days
Therefore the IG can move, annex, and move on in a few days. A oh so powerful demon primarch is lost to his temper each time he steps on the soil of a planet and takes nearly 2 years to kill everything ( bacteria too maybe? ) on a world.
Seems the overall power of a demon primarch isn't higher than the power of a GFM of the IoM.
Why is that so?
Because the GFM still is backed up by the IoM. A backup the former leader of a Legion of Imperial space Marines had too.
Demonhood may raise the personal power a bit. It does nothing for overall power, its rather counter-productive too as chaos isn't as organized as the formations in the GC were and the infighting gets you a lot of untrustworthy allies.
Angron had 50,000 Khornate Berserkers (Close combat specialists all, and no mention of Daemons). Macharius had seven Army Groups. Now, I don't know what "Army Group" translates to in 40k, but IRL that can be anywhere from like four hundred thousand soldiers to a million, a regiment being a few thousand in number to compare. It also notes that Macharius would often bombard planets from orbit until they submit, and organised system-wide campaigns involving dozens of regiments fighting at once. And do note his men weren't all close combat specialists.
Faulty comparison is faulty. But beyond that, I would agree that Macharius is certainly a better general than Angron is. But his methods didn't all amount to "run towards the enemy and hit them really hard" either, which takes a bit more time to raze a planet compared to the use of long-range weaponry, artillery, or outright orbital bombardment.
Your little equation also failed to take into account space travel.
But the real flaw is that you are not taking into account Macharius is not simply an exceptional Imperial Guard Commander, he is the greatest commander the Imperial Guard has ever seen.
So trying to use Macharius as a standard to discredit the Primarchs is faulty.
1hadhq wrote:
Seems the overall power of a demon primarch isn't higher than the power of a GFM of the IoM.
Why is that so?
Because the GFM still is backed up by the IoM. A backup the former leader of a Legion of Imperial space Marines had too.
Demonhood may raise the personal power a bit. It does nothing for overall power, its rather counter-productive too as chaos isn't as organized as the formations in the GC were and the infighting gets you a lot of untrustworthy allies.
Faulty comparison is faulty.
But the real flaw is that you are not taking into account Macharius is not simply an exceptional Imperial Guard Commander, he is the greatest commander the Imperial Guard has ever seen.
So trying to use Macharius as a standard to discredit the Primarchs is faulty.
There is no escape for you.
Call it faulty, flawed whatever you like.
Can't have it both ways.
Either the demon primarchs are measured in pure personal power ( ie their statline ) or in overall power ( ie their influence and their achievements in the background ).
If we count the power we see in the HH series, Primarchs and their Legions had at least as much support as Macharius had.
Got them to conquer what we consider the IoM nowadays in 200 years.
So overall the power of the Primarchs was to concentrated in a few hands and lead to a civil war that left scars across the Galaxy.
Now, these demon primarchs are no longer that powerful. They can go on a rampage, like angron. But it doesn't has the lasting effort as their actions had back in the GC.
If we consider the statline, let me point to the debates in "proposed rules" whenever one proposes rules for Primarchs.
Was there ever any agreement about the level the Primarchs should be put on? Can't remember any consensus there...
Why did I chose Macharius?
Because he is a mortal, has limited time to achieve anything , has limited power, can't just come back from the warp and try again, has only the basic grunts without superpowers ( the IG ) at his command, achieved more in less time, didn't need the favor of any God for it,
and still was awesome.
Isn't poor ol Macharius on a disadvantage when compared to a Primarch?
So he is the perfect example why the ones backing you up on your endeavour are important and the power of a single creature in 40k relies heavily on who has to obey. The iom is able in this example to grant a mortal human enough power to outdo a chaos filled demon primarch. Seems the loyal followers are better off .
Power overall > personal power.
Greatest imperial commander > traitor primarch
The traitor Primarchs also looked down on the humans they should protect. Ends up they are outperformed by said humans....
This is a discussion that can go on for a millennium or longer. In my opinion, Chaos won. Not because the rebel primarchs are "alive" and the loyalist dead, but more because of what the state of the Empire has become.
Look to the histories and the books. Before the heresy, mankind was advancing, not only out into space, but technologically, and intellectually.
Now, the nothing better personifies The Imperium, than the Emperor himself. A corpse that simply hasn't died yet, clinging to what little it has left and slowly decaying at a snails pace.
Innovation has become heresy and independent thought is anathema.
Automatically Appended Next Post: PS: and as for the Primarchs themselves, I think that Ruven (formerly of the Night Lords) put it best, when he described them as not being better than humanity, but humanity magnified.
"all of mankind's greatest attributes balanced by its greatest flaws. For every triumph or flash of preternatural genius, there was a crushing defeat or another step deeper on the descent into madness."
Ferg wrote:This is a discussion that can go on for a millennium or longer. In my opinion, Chaos won. Not because the rebel primarchs are "alive" and the loyalist dead, but more because of what the state of the Empire has become.
Look to the histories and the books. Before the heresy, mankind was advancing, not only out into space, but technologically, and intellectually.
Now, the nothing better personifies The Imperium, than the Emperor himself. A corpse that simply hasn't died yet, clinging to what little it has left and slowly decaying at a snails pace.
Innovation has become heresy and independent thought is anathema.
Automatically Appended Next Post: PS: and as for the Primarchs themselves, I think that Ruven (formerly of the Night Lords) put it best, when he described them as not being better than humanity, but humanity magnified.
"all of mankind's greatest attributes balanced by its greatest flaws. For every triumph or flash of preternatural genius, there was a crushing defeat or another step deeper on the descent into madness."
Except that chaos is now led by a certain armless failure.
1hadhq wrote:There is no escape for you.
Call it faulty, flawed whatever you like.
I will indeed call it faulty and flawed, because that's what it is.
1hadhq wrote:Can't have it both ways.
Either the demon primarchs are measured in pure personal power ( ie their statline ) or in overall power ( ie their influence and their achievements in the background ).
If we count the power we see in the HH series, Primarchs and their Legions had at least as much support as Macharius had.
Got them to conquer what we consider the IoM nowadays in 200 years.
So overall the power of the Primarchs was to concentrated in a few hands and lead to a civil war that left scars across the Galaxy.
Now, these demon primarchs are no longer that powerful. They can go on a rampage, like angron. But it doesn't has the lasting effort as their actions had back in the GC.
If we consider the statline, let me point to the debates in "proposed rules" whenever one proposes rules for Primarchs.
Was there ever any agreement about the level the Primarchs should be put on? Can't remember any consensus there...
In the Horus Heresy series? They absolutely had as much, probably more, support.
Are they not? They can now bend reality to their whim, and command a force greater and more powerful than the Imperium of Man could dream of. In the Warp of course. You don't seem to realise how much power it takes to summon a Daemon Primarch even partially, it's not something that can be done at the drop of a hat.
No official statline has been released, but IMO Daemon Primarchs should easily be stronger than the Greater Daemons that serve them, and if you consider the Horus Heresy series, Magnus was capable of destroying Titans personally. But I digress.
1hadhq wrote:Why did I chose Macharius?
Because he is a mortal, has limited time to achieve anything , has limited power, can't just come back from the warp and try again, has only the basic grunts without superpowers ( the IG ) at his command, achieved more in less time, didn't need the favor of any God for it,
and still was awesome.
Isn't poor ol Macharius on a disadvantage when compared to a Primarch?
So he is the perfect example why the ones backing you up on your endeavour are important and the power of a single creature in 40k relies heavily on who has to obey. The iom is able in this example to grant a mortal human enough power to outdo a chaos filled demon primarch. Seems the loyal followers are better off .
Not really. If you really want to compare achievements, the Traitor Primarchs laid the Imperium low, and now the Imperium is nothing more than a rotting corpse that doesn't know it's dead yet. But beyond that, they fight wars in the Warp that are, as I have said before, very relevant in-universe to the galaxy. You continue to confuse narrative importance with in-universe importance.
The loyal Primarchs are dead or missing. Yes, much better off. Right.
1hadhq wrote:Power overall > personal power.
Greatest imperial commander > traitor primarch
The traitor Primarchs also looked down on the humans they should protect. Ends up they are outperformed by said humans....
Horus is a traitor Primarch, and his achievements as a traitor far outweigh anything Macharius has done.
There were official stat lines for Daemon Princes in 2nd edition. Considering those were humans that were elevated to daemonhood, Primarchs that did the same should be that much stronger. I'll see if I can find my old book.
Let's see, Doombreed, one of Khorne's first:
Movement 6, WS 10, BS 9, S 7, T 8, W 8, I 10, A 7, Ld 12
Axe of Khorne (adds +1 to the strength above, and deals D3 wounds per wound inflicted)
Rod of Khorne (extra CCW that makes psykers in base to base lose D3 wounds each turn)
Chaos Armor (super terminator armor, basically, 2+ save on 2d6 before modifiers)
Collar of Khorne (immune to psychic powers and force weapons)
Praise of Khorne (may re-roll failed armor saves)
Terror
Flight
I would imagine a Daemon Primarch would have 10s across the board.
I will indeed call it faulty and flawed, because that's what it is.
.
No. But YMMV.
Void__Dragon wrote:
They can now bend reality to their whim, and command a force greater and more powerful than the Imperium of Man could dream of. In the Warp of course.
Who cares for the warp?
Primarchs belong to both realms. Go share your take on their power in the material realm or stop this nonsense of them beeing superawesomesauce in some magic pony land.
They can bend whatever they please in their hideout. Doesn't matter as they are stuck there.
You seem to think the demon primarchs influence the outcome in the warp a lot. But maybe all these named GD are the important ones and the demon primarchs are just there for entertainment of their masters? Codex CD doesn't tell us if any of the GD obey to a demon-primarchs wishes. Demons are splinters of their "God" , aren't they?
Void__Dragon wrote: If you really want to compare achievements, the Traitor Primarchs laid the Imperium low, and now the Imperium is nothing more than a rotting corpse that doesn't know it's dead yet. But beyond that, they fight wars in the Warp that are, as I have said before, very relevant in-universe to the galaxy. You continue to confuse narrative importance with in-universe importance.
Too bad it was the fact Horus had half of the imperial military behind him, and not the "might" of the traitor primarchs.
His position enabled him to send most of the loyalists off....and still they didn't oppose the loyalists not one on one but had to go for 3:1 usually... ( istvaan, terra, etc ). Horus himself said they had to act fast, before the loyalists could gather.
Shows their achievements pretty much. Even in a advantageous position, they had to aim for a short fight as they would have lost if they had to oppose the full might of the imperium. When they lost to an outnumbered force, they ran like the cowards they are.
In universe, GW could drop every single traitor primarch and it would change nothing.
They are disabled "in universe" .
Void__Dragon wrote:Horus is a traitor Primarch, and his achievements as a traitor far outweigh anything Macharius has done.
Who is still remembered? who got betrayed and lost everything?
There is no doubt who achieved nothing to be proud of.
"Proud of"? Certainly not, otherwise the alternative ending where Horus wins wouldn't have him so overwhelmed with guilt and regret that he destroys the universe.
Then again, if we consider the events of the BLHH series, Horus made a conscious decision to betray his father, so perhaps destroying his father's vision in a fit of pique/spite is cause for pride enough.
No official statline has been released, but IMO Daemon Primarchs should easily be stronger than the Greater Daemons that serve them
Greater Daemons do NOT serve Daemon Primarchs. At all. If you're going to use the thing with Angron at armaggedon, then remember it didn't ever say they served him, it said he was standing alongside them.
Now MAYBE Angron, being the most powerful traitor primarch, is the equal or slight superior of a standard khornate GD, but daemons like An'ggrath and Doombreed would still be quite enormously more powerful than him, and An'ggrath actually has a statline.
Daemon Princes are usually above greater daemons in hierarchy, although there are a few stand-out GDs that very highly favored. That's why the daemon that corrupted/possessed Fulgrim became a Daemon Prince rather than a Greater Daemon.
Doombreed is a Daemon Prince, not a Greater Daemon. Way to shoot your own argument in the foot.
We have an example of a non-daemon Primarch owning a Greater Daemon. They would only become more powerful upon achieving daemonhood. Again, your argument fails and fails hard.
Omegus wrote:Daemon Princes are usually above greater daemons in hierarchy, although there are a few stand-out GDs that very highly favored. That's why the daemon that corrupted/possessed Fulgrim became a Daemon Prince rather than a Greater Daemon.
Doombreed is a Daemon Prince, not a Greater Daemon. Way to shoot your own argument in the foot.
We have an example of a non-daemon Primarch owning a Greater Daemon. They would only become more powerful upon achieving daemonhood. Again, your argument fails and fails hard.
Actually, GD are above Daemon Princes, by a huge margin. Only daemon princes who also happen to be primarchs are slightly more powerful than GD.
I know Doombreed is a daemon prince. If you look a my post that YOU referrenced, you'll notice I said "Daemons like An'ggrath and Doombreed".
Sanguinius, head and shoulder the most physically powerful primarch, defeated a GD who had previously trumped him and knocked him un-conscious, by dropping him (Ã la cheating hard).
Source? Citation? Anything at all that isn't pulled from the crevices of your rectum?
Doombread, N'Kari, et al (i.e. Daemon Princes important enough for us to know the name of, which would include Primarchs) are significantly stronger than Greater Daemons. Fail 1.
You have no proof or citation or any sort of reference for Sanguinius being the most physically powerful Primarch. At all. I informed you of your misconception on that point in the other thread. Fail 2.
Sanguinius defeated the Bloodthirster by snapping its back over his knee. Fail 3.
im2randomghgh wrote:Sanguinius, head and shoulder the most physically powerful primarch,
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it stated that Ferrus Manus and Vulkan were the most physically powerful primarchs, at least in terms of sheer brute strength? I certainly know of no source that suggests that Sanguinius is the most physically powerful Primarch.
im2randomghgh wrote:Sanguinius, head and shoulder the most physically powerful primarch,
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it stated that Ferrus Manus and Vulkan were the most physically powerful primarchs, at least in terms of sheer brute strength? I certainly know of no source that suggests that Sanguinius is the most physically powerful Primarch.
Omegus wrote:Source? Citation? Anything at all that isn't pulled from the crevices of your rectum?
Doombread, N'Kari, et al (i.e. Daemon Princes important enough for us to know the name of, which would include Primarchs) are significantly stronger than Greater Daemons. Fail 1.
You have no proof or citation or any sort of reference for Sanguinius being the most physically powerful Primarch. At all. I informed you of your misconception on that point in the other thread. Fail 2.
Sanguinius defeated the Bloodthirster by snapping its back over his knee. Fail 3.
Man, you just keep racking up the fail.
Doombreed, N'kari etc. ARE more powerful than GD, but they are the single most powerful daemon princes, including the primarchs. Doombreed was Khorne's FIRST daemon prince, and his most favoured. Think about it, a daemon prince older than Tzeentch. Ur ump-teenth fail.
Sanguinius killed this thing. This thing that had killed 500 terminators, compared to Magnus who was defeated by three terminators and a dreadnought. Ur fail.
3. OK this was MINOR fail on my part, I was remembering the Sanguinor's thing.
im2randomghgh wrote:Sanguinius, head and shoulder the most physically powerful primarch,
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it stated that Ferrus Manus and Vulkan were the most physically powerful primarchs, at least in terms of sheer brute strength? I certainly know of no source that suggests that Sanguinius is the most physically powerful Primarch.
Martial skill is what I was referring to.
I don't really see anything to suggest that only due to Sanguinius' martial skills could he kill that Greater Demon, since said Greater Demon had already attacked him, and an injured Sanguinius proceeded to pretty handily wreck it by breaking its back over his knee, which is something Vulkan and Ferrus Manus could do with relative ease (Vulkan was described as having batted tanks aside as if they were children's toys). Most primarchs, imo, could kill a greater demon, considering we have primarchs like Fulgrim busting Wraithlords and throttling Avatars, and Magnus destroying Titans. It is only common sense that a Daemon Primarch would generally be much stronger then the average Greater Demon.
Doombreed was not the first and most favored, but merely one of Khorne's first. You are making stuff up.
Although Khorne was the first to awaken, it wasn't by a large margin. We have no specific timeline of these events, so claiming Doombreed is older than Tzeench is pure conjecture, also known as making stuff up.
Magnus was never defeated by three terminators and a dreadnought. In BotF, he was stomping on the Chapter Master while having faded to the point that he was transparent and wind disturbed his outline. His manifestation was brief in likely the most daemon-hostile environment in the Imperium, and he still stomped face. You are again, yes you guessed it, making stuff up.
Also, "ur"? Really? We've degenerated to text speak now? I'm embarrassed for you, truly.
Uhlan wrote:There is no glory in becoming a pawn of Chaos.
To suggest that the traitor primarchs have come out on top because they're still living is to ignore what they have become and the lives they live. I'm sure it isn't an altogether joyous experience no matter how 'cool' it might seem to be a demon.
Remember as well that Fulgrim is trapped within his own body by a demon. Forced to live out his existence in that way does not seem like a victory to me.
And importantly, also the glorious possibilities forsaken when they chose the paths they did. Had they great crusade continued and succeeded, they would indeed have become rulers of the galaxy.
Void__Dragon wrote:Angron seems like he's having a pretty good time.
He seems very much to be the exception, however. The remainder of the traitor primarchs seem (though of course subsequent fluff may contradict this) to have achieved little or nothing in the millennia since their ascension. A common inference from their absence from the spotlight is that, having become essentially immortal creatures of the empyrean, they have grown distanced from mortal concerns and no longer feel the motivation they once did to act in the physical world.
Magnus is a demon prince and rules over a planet,peturablo rules a planet, Angron is a deamom prince and rules a world, Mprtarion is a deamon prince and rules a world, Lorgar is a deamon and rules a world, and although fulgrim is a shadow of himself and all that jazz, hes also a deamon prince who owns his own world. Thats almost a 70% world ruling rate, with almost all of them deamon princes.
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im2randomghgh wrote:
Omegus wrote:Daemon Princes are usually above greater daemons in hierarchy, although there are a few stand-out GDs that very highly favored. That's why the daemon that corrupted/possessed Fulgrim became a Daemon Prince rather than a Greater Daemon.
Doombreed is a Daemon Prince, not a Greater Daemon. Way to shoot your own argument in the foot.
We have an example of a non-daemon Primarch owning a Greater Daemon. They would only become more powerful upon achieving daemonhood. Again, your argument fails and fails hard.
Actually, GD are above Daemon Princes, by a huge margin. Only daemon princes who also happen to be primarchs are slightly more powerful than GD.
I know Doombreed is a daemon prince. If you look a my post that YOU referrenced, you'll notice I said "Daemons like An'ggrath and Doombreed".
Sanguinius, head and shoulder the most physically powerful primarch, defeated a GD who had previously trumped him and knocked him un-conscious, by dropping him (Ã la cheating hard).
The fail is in your court, sir.
If sanguinius was the most powerful primarch, then how did Horus kill him?
Uhlan wrote:There is no glory in becoming a pawn of Chaos.
To suggest that the traitor primarchs have come out on top because they're still living is to ignore what they have become and the lives they live. I'm sure it isn't an altogether joyous experience no matter how 'cool' it might seem to be a demon.
Remember as well that Fulgrim is trapped within his own body by a demon. Forced to live out his existence in that way does not seem like a victory to me.
And importantly, also the glorious possibilities forsaken when they chose the paths they did. Had they great crusade continued and succeeded, they would indeed have become rulers of the galaxy.
Void__Dragon wrote:Angron seems like he's having a pretty good time.
He seems very much to be the exception, however. The remainder of the traitor primarchs seem (though of course subsequent fluff may contradict this) to have achieved little or nothing in the millennia since their ascension. A common inference from their absence from the spotlight is that, having become essentially immortal creatures of the empyrean, they have grown distanced from mortal concerns and no longer feel the motivation they once did to act in the physical world.
Magnus is a demon prince and rules over a planet,peturablo rules a planet, Angron is a deamom prince and rules a world, Mprtarion is a deamon prince and rules a world, Lorgar is a deamon and rules a world, and although fulgrim is a shadow of himself and all that jazz, hes also a deamon prince who owns his own world. Thats almost a 70% world ruling rate, with almost all of them deamon princes.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
im2randomghgh wrote:
Omegus wrote:Daemon Princes are usually above greater daemons in hierarchy, although there are a few stand-out GDs that very highly favored. That's why the daemon that corrupted/possessed Fulgrim became a Daemon Prince rather than a Greater Daemon.
Doombreed is a Daemon Prince, not a Greater Daemon. Way to shoot your own argument in the foot.
We have an example of a non-daemon Primarch owning a Greater Daemon. They would only become more powerful upon achieving daemonhood. Again, your argument fails and fails hard.
Actually, GD are above Daemon Princes, by a huge margin. Only daemon princes who also happen to be primarchs are slightly more powerful than GD.
I know Doombreed is a daemon prince. If you look a my post that YOU referrenced, you'll notice I said "Daemons like An'ggrath and Doombreed".
Sanguinius, head and shoulder the most physically powerful primarch, defeated a GD who had previously trumped him and knocked him un-conscious, by dropping him (Ã la cheating hard).
The fail is in your court, sir.
If sanguinius was the most powerful primarch, then how did Horus kill him?
Not saying he was the most powerful, as I have no proof, but Horus killed him because he was backed by all four chaos gods. In a fight before the heresy it would have been a close fight.
Jollydevil wrote:Magnus is a demon prince and rules over a planet,peturablo rules a planet, Angron is a deamom prince and rules a world, Mprtarion is a deamon prince and rules a world, Lorgar is a deamon and rules a world, and although fulgrim is a shadow of himself and all that jazz, hes also a deamon prince who owns his own world. Thats almost a 70% world ruling rate, with almost all of them deamon princes.
Nicholas wrote:Not saying he was the most powerful, as I have no proof, but Horus killed him because he was backed by all four chaos gods. In a fight before the heresy it would have been a close fight.
Ah, so the favor of the Chaos Gods gives you more power? Shocking. Truly.
1hadhq wrote:Who cares for the warp?
Primarchs belong to both realms. Go share your take on their power in the material realm or stop this nonsense of them beeing superawesomesauce in some magic pony land.
They can bend whatever they please in their hideout. Doesn't matter as they are stuck there.
You seem to think the demon primarchs influence the outcome in the warp a lot. But maybe all these named GD are the important ones and the demon primarchs are just there for entertainment of their masters? Codex CD doesn't tell us if any of the GD obey to a demon-primarchs wishes. Demons are splinters of their "God" , aren't they?
I'd imagine the Imperium cares quite a bit for their means of FTL travel and the home of their greatest enemy. I already told you Daemon Primarchs can't manifest often in the Materium. But when Angron did manifest, he did more damage to the Imperium than most. Magnus also effectively killed the hope of the Space Wolf geneseed being fixed.
They are indeed stuck there, but in many ways, that doesn't bother them. And they do. Angron had 12 Greater Daemons answering to him during the First War for Armageddon, the Daemon Primarchs are among the most favored and powerful of the Gods' servants.
Too bad it was the fact Horus had half of the imperial military behind him, and not the "might" of the traitor primarchs.
His position enabled him to send most of the loyalists off....and still they didn't oppose the loyalists not one on one but had to go for 3:1 usually... ( istvaan, terra, etc ). Horus himself said they had to act fast, before the loyalists could gather.
Shows their achievements pretty much. Even in a advantageous position, they had to aim for a short fight as they would have lost if they had to oppose the full might of the imperium. When they lost to an outnumbered force, they ran like the cowards they are.
In universe, GW could drop every single traitor primarch and it would change nothing.
They are disabled "in universe" .
Said Imperial Military defected to Chaos, and much of it still lives and fights for Chaos today, and Chaos is constantly recruiting. And yes, the might of the traitor Primarchs played a part, cutting huge swaths in the Loyalists personally, and some undermining them not with might, but guile, such as Perturabo, Alpharius, and as you said, Horus. What's that? Horus used strategy and tactical prowess to gain an advantage in a war? How dare he!?
They fled after Horus died because with their strongest gone, they couldn't oppose the full might of the returning Loyalists, which is kind of true, since the Ultramarines outnumbers most of the Traitor Legions combined.
Who is still remembered? who got betrayed and lost everything?
There is no doubt who achieved nothing to be proud of.
Oh, certainly, Horus and the Traitor's actions are reprehensible, largely due to the corrupting nature of Chaos. I don't dispute that, I only believe the Daemon Primarchs got the better deal compared to the Loyalists.
And I also see that we will never convince the other of our view, would you agree to disagree?
Jollydevil wrote:Magnus is a demon prince and rules over a planet,peturablo rules a planet, Angron is a deamom prince and rules a world, Mprtarion is a deamon prince and rules a world, Lorgar is a deamon and rules a world, and although fulgrim is a shadow of himself and all that jazz, hes also a deamon prince who owns his own world. Thats almost a 70% world ruling rate, with almost all of them deamon princes.
World < Galaxy.
Alright?
I dont understand where youre going with this.
im2randomghgh wrote:Greater Daemons do NOT serve Daemon Primarchs. At all. If you're going to use the thing with Angron at armaggedon, then remember it didn't ever say they served him, it said he was standing alongside them.
Now MAYBE Angron, being the most powerful traitor primarch, is the equal or slight superior of a standard khornate GD, but daemons like An'ggrath and Doombreed would still be quite enormously more powerful than him, and An'ggrath actually has a statline.
Same goes for the other daemon lords.
Oh come on man this gak again?
The Space Wolves codex referred to twelve Bloodthirsters as Angron's lieutenants. They served him.
No, all Daemon Primarchs are stronger, Jesus Christ dude, Njal Stormcaller, "merely" a Rune Priest, killed a Bloodthirster personally. A Primarch definitely could. gak, Magnus the Red has popped Titans dwarfing Warlords on at least two occasions, and Fulgrim runs around beating up Avatars of Khaine. An'ggrath might be more powerful, but until we get an official word from the fluff it's a moot point.
I'd imagine the Imperium cares quite a bit for their means of FTL travel and the home of their greatest enemy. I already told you Daemon Primarchs can't manifest often in the Materium. But when Angron did manifest, he did more damage to the Imperium than most. Magnus also effectively killed the hope of the Space Wolf geneseed being fixed.
They are indeed stuck there, but in many ways, that doesn't bother them. And they do. Angron had 12 Greater Daemons answering to him during the First War for Armageddon, the Daemon Primarchs are among the most favored and powerful of the Gods' servants.
Without chaos, using the Empyrean would be safer so lets get rid of them. Like the codex chaos demons told us, let one of these "gods" win and chaos ends. Looking forward to any of them having such sucess ( maybe with a little help from a third party muhaha ).
See, I can follow your circular arguments... until hell freezes.
Nobody said Angron did less than other traitor primarchs, the 12 greater demons may had orders from khorne to obey for a while and who knows if they are not free of this obligation after they were banished ?
Void__Dragon wrote: Said Imperial Military defected to Chaos, and much of it still lives and fights for Chaos today, and Chaos is constantly recruiting. And yes, the might of the traitor Primarchs played a part, cutting huge swaths in the Loyalists personally, and some undermining them not with might, but guile, such as Perturabo, Alpharius, and as you said, Horus. What's that? Horus used strategy and tactical prowess to gain an advantage in a war? How dare he!?
They fled after Horus died because with their strongest gone, they couldn't oppose the full might of the returning Loyalists, which is kind of true, since the Ultramarines outnumbers most of the Traitor Legions combined.
There are chaos recruting threads and they never end well. Maybe the fact the recrutement cannot be confirmed in the size you 'd need if you rely on GW and not fanwank should tell you there is not enough fluff to base a claim on a steady source of new recruts on.
Horus deserved his fate.
They fled because they were weak. They fled because they had no discipline and discarded the concept of loyality.
They fled because they may fight when they had a superiority of 3:1 but had no guts to fight 1:1. They fled because the feared for their precious existance.
They could have stayed because the ultramarines were far off and maybe not even in transit. Gullyman gave up on the IoM..as it was.
So we have the two Legions you seem to love, the Space wolves ( decreased in numbers from their adventure at prospero ) and the Dark Angels, who were the greater danger as they had as "the first legion" surely some time to grow and if they called for their reserves from Caliban the split may not have happened.
I don't know why you discount the word bearers, wasn't it their job to keep the ultras busy? No success methinks...
But maybe the major disadvantage of chaos is the Primarchs were created as a band of brothers, so strengths and weaknesses would be balanced by thy brother and not just raw personal power. The united force of them is stronger than the parts.
The traitors gave up on this and screwed themselves. The loyalists are still able to cooperate.
GW had to take them out, since 10 millenia to reforge the IoM would be enough. Bye bye grimdark...
Void__Dragon wrote: Oh, certainly, Horus and the Traitor's actions are reprehensible, largely due to the corrupting nature of Chaos. I don't dispute that, I only believe the Daemon Primarchs got the better deal compared to the Loyalists.
And I also see that we will never convince the other of our view, would you agree to disagree?
I do.
Jollydevil wrote:
English Assassin wrote:
Jollydevil wrote:Magnus is a demon prince and rules over a planet,peturablo rules a planet, Angron is a deamom prince and rules a world, Mprtarion is a deamon prince and rules a world, Lorgar is a deamon and rules a world, and although fulgrim is a shadow of himself and all that jazz, hes also a deamon prince who owns his own world. Thats almost a 70% world ruling rate, with almost all of them deamon princes.
World < Galaxy.
Alright?
I dont understand where youre going with this.
I think he goes to:
Primarchs had legion homeworlds.
Traitor primarchs rule hellholes in the warp, but still just 1 planet.
So the deal is a swap of 1 type of home to another. Nothing won.
OtoH, as primarchs of a imperial space marine legion, the whole galaxy was to be theirs to roam, to conquer, to explore. Maybe not to rule personally but with their actual masters they also have no chance to be the one with the last say.
They controlled worlds, maybe systems. Who knows every position they were created for? We have hints the Emperor planned to hand control over his newly added entry to the webway to Magnus. Now, a job as Gatekeeper doesn't look important but if you conquer the routes and gates in it, you control a system of paths throughout the Galaxy. And get all the news first from the travellers.
Swapped an Galaxy for them to take with a life of paranoia, where your brother is your worst enemy...
Omegus wrote:Doombreed was not the first and most favored, but merely one of Khorne's first. You are making stuff up.
Although Khorne was the first to awaken, it wasn't by a large margin. We have no specific timeline of these events, so claiming Doombreed is older than Tzeench is pure conjecture, also known as making stuff up.
Magnus was never defeated by three terminators and a dreadnought. In BotF, he was stomping on the Chapter Master while having faded to the point that he was transparent and wind disturbed his outline. His manifestation was brief in likely the most daemon-hostile environment in the Imperium, and he still stomped face. You are again, yes you guessed it, making stuff up.
Also, "ur"? Really? We've degenerated to text speak now? I'm embarrassed for you, truly.
His form was fading...DUE TO THE MASSIVE DAMAGE DOLED OUT BY GREYLOC!!!
You seem to only accept details from books that suit your PoV.
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Void__Dragon wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:Greater Daemons do NOT serve Daemon Primarchs. At all. If you're going to use the thing with Angron at armaggedon, then remember it didn't ever say they served him, it said he was standing alongside them.
Now MAYBE Angron, being the most powerful traitor primarch, is the equal or slight superior of a standard khornate GD, but daemons like An'ggrath and Doombreed would still be quite enormously more powerful than him, and An'ggrath actually has a statline.
Same goes for the other daemon lords.
Oh come on man this gak again?
The Space Wolves codex referred to twelve Bloodthirsters as Angron's lieutenants. They served him.
No, all Daemon Primarchs are stronger, Jesus Christ dude, Njal Stormcaller, "merely" a Rune Priest, killed a Bloodthirster personally. A Primarch definitely could. gak, Magnus the Red has popped Titans dwarfing Warlords on at least two occasions, and Fulgrim runs around beating up Avatars of Khaine. An'ggrath might be more powerful, but until we get an official word from the fluff it's a moot point.
The Twelve Blood thirsters wer NOT referred to as his lieutenants. He was described as standing amongst them.
We're using specific examples and merely between quotation marks now? Okay, Kaldor Draigo, "merely` a space marine, wiped the floor with a primarch, burned down the garden of nurgle, and just basically owes chaos whenever he sees it. A Daemon primarch.
So By your Logic, Space Marines should all have a number of Greater Daemon Lieutenants surpassing twelve because they are better than daemon primarchs. Also, Fulgrim only barely defeated the Avatar of Khaine, and he`s one of the stronger primarchs, having taken out 2 other primarchs. Avatars have stats much, much, MUCH worse than An`ggrath. Just sayin.
Lexicanum wrote:Greater Daemons are the most powerful of the Chaos Gods servants
And you seem to only accept those that you've invented.
Spoiler:
By the time Magnus engaged that whole gaggle of wolves, the "glory of his ascent had receded", so he was already diminished. Yet despite all the punishment they inflicted on his borrowed form (remember he was inhabiting the body of one of his captains), he still killed all of them except for Bjorn, who he left armless in a ruined heap.
His form didn't start losing coherency until Ironhelm showed up (Greyloc was dead by that point). The whole fight basically read like a Dragonball Z boss battle, with Magnus playing the role of Goku. They inflict a ridiculous amount of punishment on him, only for him to go, "oh wait, i'm a daemon primarch, lulz" and annihilate them. Despite them being the protagonists and having tons of plot armor on, he still killed all of them and destroyed their gene research. How does this equate to being "defeated" again? Who's the one unable to accept reality here?
The Space Wolves codex describes the Bloodthirsters as "the most terrible of all Khorne's servants save the Daemon Primarch himself". That certainly doesn't seem to imply that they are stronger than he is. Quite the opposite. And Fulgrim is not "one of the strongest Primarchs". He was losing his battle against Mannus until the daemon sword gave him his power, and when he defeated Guilliman he was already a Daemon.
Also, I absolutely love how you cite Lexicanum of all things, and then manage to do it out of context. Right before that sentence, on that exact page, the Daemon Princes are described as follows: "Those who become Daemon Princes are counted among the most powerful creatures of Chaos, second only to the Chaos Gods themselves." Yes, greater daemons are the most powerful servants of the Chaos Gods, but the Daemon Princes are their most powerful champions.
So you're back from your vacation, only to spout a bunch of falsehoods again. And all you accomplish with every one of your citations is to weaken your argument. But hey, I'm impressed you actually managed to make a post without resorting to namecalling. That time-out must have done you some good.
im2randomghgh wrote:The Twelve Blood thirsters wer NOT referred to as his lieutenants. He was described as standing amongst them.
They were also described as "Khorne's most terrible servants save the Daemon Primarch himself."
Oh, and later on, referring to the Grey Knights banishing Angron and his twelve Bloodthirsters with great loss, it says "With Angron and his LIEUTENANTS banished to the Warp..."
We're using specific examples and merely between quotation marks now? Okay, Kaldor Draigo, "merely` a space marine, wiped the floor with a primarch, burned down the garden of nurgle, and just basically owes chaos whenever he sees it. A Daemon primarch.
Kaldor Draigo is the only person in the fluff who has bested a Daemon Primarch mono el mono. But guess what? Numerous Greater Daemons have been beaten one on one. Thawn banished Ku'gath the Plaguefather. Stern banished M'kaechan. Commander Dante IIRC cut Skarbarand in half. Hell, a goddamn Dreadknight can and has taken down Greater Daemons one on one.
Face it, you have no proof a Greater Daemon is stronger than a Primarch.
So By your Logic, Space Marines should all have a number of Greater Daemon Lieutenants surpassing twelve because they are better than daemon primarchs. Also, Fulgrim only barely defeated the Avatar of Khaine, and he`s one of the stronger primarchs, having taken out 2 other primarchs. Avatars have stats much, much, MUCH worse than An`ggrath. Just sayin.
No, that's your insane troll logic, not mine. Fulgrim was wounded by the Avatar of Khaine, yes, but said Avatar of Khaine in the story was also demonstratably stronger than a Wraithlord, who was easily crushed by Fulgrim. And Fulgrim may be a bit above average for a Primarch (This is pretty arguable in of itself), but he's no Magnus, Sanguinius, Angron, Horus, or probably Leman Russ. And he had to use his Daemonsword to beat Manus.
Lexicanum wrote:Greater Daemons are the most powerful of the Chaos Gods servants
Lol. Guess what the very page you quoted that from says?
"Those who become Daemon Princes are counted among the most powerful creatures of Chaos, second only to the Chaos Gods themselves. "
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Omegus wrote:The Space Wolves codex describes the Bloodthirsters as "the most terrible of all Khorne's servants save the Daemon Primarch himself". That certainly doesn't seem to imply that they are stronger than he is. Quite the opposite. And Fulgrim is not "one of the strongest Primarchs". He was losing his battle against Mannus until the daemon sword gave him his power, and when he defeated Guilliman he was already a Daemon.
Also, I absolutely love how you cite Lexicanum of all things, and then manage to do it out of context. Right before that sentence, on that exact page, the Daemon Princes are described as follows: "Those who become Daemon Princes are counted among the most powerful creatures of Chaos, second only to the Chaos Gods themselves." Yes, greater daemons are the most powerful servants of the Chaos Gods, but the Daemon Princes are their most powerful champions.
im2randomghgh wrote:The Twelve Blood thirsters wer NOT referred to as his lieutenants. He was described as standing amongst them.
They were also described as "Khorne's most terrible servants save the Daemon Primarch himself."
Oh, and later on, referring to the Grey Knights banishing Angron and his twelve Bloodthirsters with great loss, it says "With Angron and his LIEUTENANTS banished to the Warp..."
We're using specific examples and merely between quotation marks now? Okay, Kaldor Draigo, "merely` a space marine, wiped the floor with a primarch, burned down the garden of nurgle, and just basically owes chaos whenever he sees it. A Daemon primarch.
Kaldor Draigo is the only person in the fluff who has bested a Daemon Primarch mono el mono. But guess what? Numerous Greater Daemons have been beaten one on one. Thawn banished Ku'gath the Plaguefather. Stern banished M'kaechan. Commander Dante IIRC cut Skarbarand in half. Hell, a goddamn Dreadknight can and has taken down Greater Daemons one on one.
Face it, you have no proof a Greater Daemon is stronger than a Primarch.
So By your Logic, Space Marines should all have a number of Greater Daemon Lieutenants surpassing twelve because they are better than daemon primarchs. Also, Fulgrim only barely defeated the Avatar of Khaine, and he`s one of the stronger primarchs, having taken out 2 other primarchs. Avatars have stats much, much, MUCH worse than An`ggrath. Just sayin.
No, that's your insane troll logic, not mine. Fulgrim was wounded by the Avatar of Khaine, yes, but said Avatar of Khaine in the story was also demonstratably stronger than a Wraithlord, who was easily crushed by Fulgrim. And Fulgrim may be above average for a Primarch, but he's no Magnus, Sanguinius, Angron, Horus, or probably Leman Russ. And he had to use his Daemonsword to beat Manus.
Lexicanum wrote:Greater Daemons are the most powerful of the Chaos Gods servants
Lol. Guess what the very page you quoted that from says?
"Those who become Daemon Princes are counted among the most powerful creatures of Chaos, second only to the Chaos Gods themselves. "
Only one that can defeat alot of people is Doombreed. Not DOOMBREAD. But Doombreed silly dakkanauts.
Uhlan wrote:There is no glory in becoming a pawn of Chaos.
To suggest that the traitor primarchs have come out on top because they're still living is to ignore what they have become and the lives they live. I'm sure it isn't an altogether joyous experience no matter how 'cool' it might seem to be a demon.
Remember as well that Fulgrim is trapped within his own body by a demon. Forced to live out his existence in that way does not seem like a victory to me.
1hadhq wrote:There are chaos recruting threads and they never end well. Maybe the fact the recrutement cannot be confirmed in the size you 'd need if you rely on GW and not fanwank should tell you there is not enough fluff to base a claim on a steady source of new recruts on.
Horus deserved his fate.
They fled because they were weak. They fled because they had no discipline and discarded the concept of loyality.
They fled because they may fight when they had a superiority of 3:1 but had no guts to fight 1:1. They fled because the feared for their precious existance.
They could have stayed because the ultramarines were far off and maybe not even in transit. Gullyman gave up on the IoM..as it was.
So we have the two Legions you seem to love, the Space wolves ( decreased in numbers from their adventure at prospero ) and the Dark Angels, who were the greater danger as they had as "the first legion" surely some time to grow and if they called for their reserves from Caliban the split may not have happened.
I don't know why you discount the word bearers, wasn't it their job to keep the ultras busy? No success methinks...
But maybe the major disadvantage of chaos is the Primarchs were created as a band of brothers, so strengths and weaknesses would be balanced by thy brother and not just raw personal power. The united force of them is stronger than the parts.
The traitors gave up on this and screwed themselves. The loyalists are still able to cooperate.
GW had to take them out, since 10 millenia to reforge the IoM would be enough. Bye bye grimdark...
The loyalist primarchs are dead or missing, in case you don't remember.
Also, on Isstvan, the Emperor's Children, World Eaters and Death Guard faced the Iron Hands, Raven Guard and Salamanders for the greater part of the battle before the counter attack by the Sons of Horus. The Iron Hands retreated when Ferrus Manus was killed. By your logic, this makes them cowards.
The Alpha Legion also constantly fight one on one when facing loyalists, because they want to test themselves.
Durza wrote:
Also, on Isstvan, the Emperor's Children, World Eaters and Death Guard faced the Iron Hands, Raven Guard and Salamanders for the greater part of the battle before the counter attack by the Sons of Horus. The Iron Hands retreated when Ferrus Manus was killed. By your logic, this makes them cowards.
The Alpha Legion also constantly fight one on one when facing loyalists, because they want to test themselves.
At istvaan, the Iron Hands had just the veteran companies as Ferrus Manus wasn't waiting until his complete force arrived.
Their fate is not revealed yet, all we know is Ferrus lost his head. His bodyguard died on his side. So who retreated?
The Salamanders are one of the smaller Legions. The Raven Guard seems also to be a medium or small sized Legion.
Facing the Traitors who had time to dig in, they had to regroup and deemd the landed reinforcements to be theirs.
So the fortified base opened fire....
Somehow, having 4 Legions on the Ground, plus fresh Legions in the opponents base, and thus almost 9 Legions to fight against 3 Legions, is exactly the 3:1 situation I am talking of. Plus the newly arrived ones had not lost anyone and some Legions aren't known as small but these loyal ones surely were. In size, it may have been more than 3:1.
The alpha legion may get some new fluff pre/past isstvan Watch the HH series...
Fulgrim did NOT use the power of the laer sword to kill Manus, any other sword would have worked just as well. Ferrus Manus was losing, so he blewed up Fulgrim's blade, at which point Fulgim drew his second sword, and beheaded Ferrus.
@ Arguing the Lexicanum quote, it WAS a contradictory page, but LOOK what it says on the page for Daemon Princes
Lexicanum wrote:Daemon Princes rule supreme over mortal Chaos followers and are usually granted reign over a Daemon World of their own.2 3 Despite this, it is not uncommon for them to leave the material plane completely and join a daemonic legion in order to serve as right hand of a mighty Greater Daemon
Oh, so Daemon Princes are stronger than Greater Daemons? Funny that they should serve those weaker than them.
@ Doombreed:
Lexicanum wrote:Doombreed is a mighty Daemon Prince of the Blood God Khorne, responsible for leading a Black Crusade against the Imperium. He is older and more powerful than even the mighty Daemon Primarchs.
Now go, go find a source which states that any of the daemon Primarchs single-handedly destroyed two chapters of loyalists the way Doombreed did.
im2randomghgh wrote:Fulgrim did NOT use the power of the laer sword to kill Manus, any other sword would have worked just as well. Ferrus Manus was losing, so he blewed up Fulgrim's blade, at which point Fulgim drew his second sword, and beheaded Ferrus.
It is so blatantly obvious you have not a clue on what really happened. Ferrus Manus did destroy the Fireblade... In their first fight, and he did it because he was renouncing Fulgrim as his brother, not because he was losing. They were evenly matched until that point.. Doing this disarmed Manus and knocked him to the ground, making it easy for Fulgrim to take Manus' hammer, the one Fulgrim created, and he proceeded to knock him out with said hammer.
When they fought on Istvaan V, Manus fought Fulgrim with a reforged Fireblade, Fulgrim at first used the hammer he made for Manus. Manus took a hit to the temple from the Warhammer, and proceeded to then slash upwards at Fulgrim's stomach, wounding him, and he dropped the hammer from the pain. Manus then was about to kill him with Fireblade, Fulgrim blocked the killing stroke with the Laer blade. The Daemonsword then empowered him, giving him unnatural strength, allowing him to wound Manus' chest, while wreathing Fulgrim in lightning. Then, he cut Manus' head off. This is what happened.
@ Arguing the Lexicanum quote, it WAS a contradictory page, but LOOK what it says on the page for Daemon Princes
Oh, so Daemon Princes are stronger than Greater Daemons? Funny that they should serve those weaker than them.
I actually agree that on average a Daemon Prince is lower in power and status than a Greater Daemon, a little. But the Daemon Primarchs are anything but average, and as I proved the Bloodthirster's served him. And if it's contradictory, it's generally not an infallible source.
@ Doombreed:
Lexicanum wrote:Doombreed is a mighty Daemon Prince of the Blood God Khorne, responsible for leading a Black Crusade against the Imperium. He is older and more powerful than even the mighty Daemon Primarchs.
Now go, go find a source which states that any of the daemon Primarchs single-handedly destroyed two chapters of loyalists the way Doombreed did.
See now, here's the thing. I've looked through the 4e Chaos Marines codex, Liber Chaotica, and even managed to find the 2e Chaos codex, all three being the cited sources for that page. Want to know what all of them have in common? None of them state Doombreed is more powerful than the Daemon Primarchs.
This "single-handedly" gak needs to stop. It wasn't his personal power that allowed this, it was his Black Crusade, his assembled forces that he led. It's not like he personally killed both legions alone.
im2randomghgh wrote:Fulgrim did NOT use the power of the laer sword to kill Manus, any other sword would have worked just as well. Ferrus Manus was losing, so he blewed up Fulgrim's blade, at which point Fulgim drew his second sword, and beheaded Ferrus.
It is so blatantly obvious you have not a clue on what really happened. Ferrus Manus did destroy the Fireblade... In their first fight, and he did it because he was renouncing Fulgrim as his brother, not because he was losing. They were evenly matched until that point.. Doing this disarmed Manus and knocked him to the ground, making it easy for Fulgrim to take Manus' hammer, the one Fulgrim created, and he proceeded to knock him out with said hammer.
When they fought on Istvaan V, Manus fought Fulgrim with a reforged Fireblade, Fulgrim at first used the hammer he made for Manus. Manus took a hit to the temple from the Warhammer, and proceeded to then slash upwards at Fulgrim's stomach, wounding him, and he dropped the hammer from the pain. Manus then was about to kill him with Fireblade, Fulgrim blocked the killing stroke with the Laer blade. The Daemonsword then empowered him, giving him unnatural strength, allowing him to wound Manus' chest, while wreathing Fulgrim in lightning. Then, he cut Manus' head off. This is what happened.
@ Arguing the Lexicanum quote, it WAS a contradictory page, but LOOK what it says on the page for Daemon Princes
Oh, so Daemon Princes are stronger than Greater Daemons? Funny that they should serve those weaker than them.
I actually agree that on average a Daemon Prince is lower in power and status than a Greater Daemon, a little. But the Daemon Primarchs are anything but average, and as I proved the Bloodthirster's served him. And if it's contradictory, it's generally not an infallible source.
@ Doombreed:
Lexicanum wrote:Doombreed is a mighty Daemon Prince of the Blood God Khorne, responsible for leading a Black Crusade against the Imperium. He is older and more powerful than even the mighty Daemon Primarchs.
Now go, go find a source which states that any of the daemon Primarchs single-handedly destroyed two chapters of loyalists the way Doombreed did.
See now, here's the thing. I've looked through the 4e Chaos Marines codex, Liber Chaotica, and even managed to find the 2e Chaos codex, all three being the cited sources for that page. Want to know what all of them have in common? None of them state Doombreed is more powerful than the Daemon Primarchs.
This "single-handedly" gak needs to stop. It wasn't his personal power that allowed this, it was his Black Crusade, his assembled forces that he led. It's not like he personally killed both legions alone.
1. That is not what happened on Istvaan V.
2. Not by just a little, or they wouldn't be serving them. I know the Daemon Primarchs aren't normal, and neither is An'ggrath. That was my original point. An'ggrath > Primarch. Primarch < Daemon Primarch.
3. Oh, so you're under the impression that only those two chapters were left to fight off the Entire crusade? What happened was Doombreed, personally, as an individual daemon, declared war on the Adeptus Astartes as a whole. And it happened to be during a crusade, so he lead it.
im2randomghgh wrote:1. That is not what happened on Istvaan V.
2. Not by just a little, or they wouldn't be serving them. I know the Daemon Primarchs aren't normal, and neither is An'ggrath. That was my original point. An'ggrath > Primarch. Primarch < Daemon Primarch.
3. Oh, so you're under the impression that only those two chapters were left to fight off the Entire crusade? What happened was Doombreed, personally, as an individual daemon, declared war on the Adeptus Astartes as a whole. And it happened to be during a crusade, so he lead it.
1. Yes... It is. I'm not going to quote it, because though I have Fulgrim saved onto this hard drive I am unable to copy and paste, and I'm not writing out the two pages or so that this occurred in, but that's the abridged version of what happened.
2. Yes, by a little. Daemon Princes are the number two guys on any given battlefield, second in power only to the Greater Daemons they usually serve, and the difference isn't that large, and can even be nonexistent. An'ggrath may be stronger than a Daemon Primarch (Though wasn't he banished in personal combat by an Inquisitor?), but it's not said either way. You're making assumptions based on your preference.
3. It's not actually said either way. It's not said what forces other than those two chapters were present. And yes, he declared war on the Astartes. But he didn't destroy the two Legions by himself, that's not said anywhere.
You guys are being rediculous.
Lexicanum says that greater demons and demon princes are about equel anyways, and even then you cant compare them because they command different things.
Lexicanum wrote:Doombreed is a mighty Daemon Prince of the Blood God Khorne, responsible for leading a Black Crusade against the Imperium. He is older and more powerful than even the mighty Daemon Primarchs.
Now go, go find a source which states that any of the daemon Primarchs single-handedly destroyed two chapters of loyalists the way Doombreed did.
Doombreed is a Daemon Prince, you are again undermining your own argument. Okay, so Doombreed is more powerful than even the mighty Daemon Primarchs. Doesn't that last part underline just how powerful Daemon Primarchs are? If Greater Daemons were stronger, wouldn't they be the ones mentioned in this line? Or are you saying Greater Daemons are stronger than Doombreed?
Can you provide a source that states Doombreed single-handedly destroyed these Chapters? By his lonesome? I somehow doubt it.
But you know, never mind, you've been proven wrong on at least a dozen points so far, and when I find myself arguing against citations of text that don't actually exist, I know not to bother anymore.
im2randomghgh wrote:An'ggrath was banished by an Inquisitor lord supported by all of the GK forces present at the SoV, yes.
Lexicanum says "personal combat."
Though, granted, I can't find SoV III, where this is detailed, so it could be inaccurate.
Oh, and:
Spoiler:
Ferrus Manus tore his eyes from the slaughter of the loyalist forces, his
teeth bared with the volcanic fury of his home world.
'Maybe not, traitor, but only dishonour holds any terror for me,' spat
Ferrus. 'The Emperor's loyal warriors will not surrender to you, not now,
not ever. You will have to kill every last one of us!'
'So be it/ said Fulgrim, launching himself towards Ferrus Manus,
swinging his mighty warhammer. The primarchs' weapons, forged in
brotherhood, but wielded in vengeance, met in a blazing plume of
energy, and the battlefield was illuminated for hundreds of metres by
their ferocious energies.
The two primarchs traded blows with their monstrously powerful
weapons, the strength to defeat armies and topple mountains unleashed
as they fought like gods forced to end their dispute in the realm of
mortals. Ferrus Manus wielded his flaming blade in fiery slashes, his
every blow defeated by the
ebony hafted hammer he had borne in countless campaigns.
Fulgrim swung his hammer in great, looping arcs, its heavy head
powerful enough to crush the armour of a Titan to paste. Both warriors
fought with the hatred only brothers divided can muster, their armour
dented, torn and blackened by the fury of their conflict.
To fight an opponent of such magnificence was a privilege, and Fulgrim
savoured every clash of hammer and sword, every fiery line cut across
his flesh and every grunt of pain torn from his brother's mouth as
Forgebreaker glanced his armour. They circled in the midst of cries of
pain and roaring savage glee, the Morlocks of Ferrus Manus slain, but
for a last few desperate heroes.
Ferrus cut the shoulder guard from Fulgrim's armour and spun inside his
guard to deliver a lethal thrust towards his groin. Fulgrim stepped to
meet the blow, batting aside the tip of the fiery sword with the haft of
Forgebreaker, and hammering the warham-mer's head towards Ferrus's
skull.
The Primarch of the Iron Hands took the blow, dropping to one knee and
lashing out with his blade as blood streamed from the terrible wound in
his temple. The sword's fiery tip cut across Fulgrim's stomach, opening
his armour and tearing through his flesh. The pain was indescribable,
and Fulgrim fell back, dropping his hammer as his hands sought to stem
the blood pouring from his body.
Both primarchs faced each other on their knees through a haze of pain
and blood, and Fulgrim once again felt an ache of sadness well within
him. The pain of his wounds, and the sight of his brother's broken skull
coated in blood, tore a window into his
mind. The sensation was like a powerful gust of fresh mountain air,
clearing away the fog that had wrapped him in a suffocating embrace for
so long that he no longer noticed it until it was gone.
'My brother/ he whispered, 'my friend.'
'You have long since lost the right to call me friend/ snarled Ferrus,
pushing himself to his feet and staggering towards Fulgrim with
Fireblade raised to smite him.
Fulgrim cried out, and his hand leapt unbidden to his waist as the
flaming blade carved a burning path towards his neck. Silver steel
flashed as he drew the sword he had taken from the Laer temple and
blocked the descending weapon. Ferrus's sword hissed and spat as it bit
into the silver blade, the Primarch of the Iron Hands' strength forcing the
blazing metal, centimetre by centimetre, towards Fulgrim's face.
'No!' cried Fulgrim. 'This is not right!'
The amethyst stone at the hilt of Fulgrim's sword pulsed with an evil
light, bathing Ferrus Manus's face in a leering purple glare. Energy
streamed from the blade, and musky smoke billowed around them,
deadening sounds and obscuring sight. Fulgrim felt a monstrous
presence swell around him, its power and nameless essence more
intoxicating and dreadful than anything he could ever have imagined.
Diabolical strength flooded his limbs and he pushed against the power of
Ferrus Manus, feeling his brother's surprise at his resistance. With a cry
of animal rage, he surged to his feet and hurled Ferrus Manus back,
spinning and lashing out with his sword.
The silver edge bit deep into the breastplate of his brother's armour, and
the Primarch of the Iron Hands cried out, falling to his knees once again
as the blade's flaring energies parted his dark armour like a fingernail
through cold grease. Hot blood sprayed from the wound and Fireblade
slid from Ferrus's hand as he gasped in fierce agony.
Finish him! Kill him! the voice screamed, and to Ful-grim it seemed as
though it echoed across time and space as well as within his skull. He
staggered with the blunt force of its imperative, lurching as though his
limbs were not his to control.
His normal grace and elan were forsaken as he falter-ingly raised the
silver sword in preparation of delivering the deathblow to Ferrus Manus.
Unknown energies coruscated along the notched blade and down the
length of his arms into the meat and bone of his wounded body.
Fulgrim was wreathed in purple fire. Crackling arcs of lightning
caressed him with a lover's tenderness, seeking out his open wounds and
licking them with balefire as they sought entry to his flesh.
Fulgrim stood above Ferrus Manus, his chest heaving convulsively as
his entire body shook with the violence of the power that sought to claim
him.
He must die! Otherwise he will kill you!
Fulgrim looked down at his defeated opponent and saw his own
reflection in the mirrors of Ferrus's eyes.
In an instant that stretched for an eternity, he saw what he had become
and what monstrous betrayal he had allowed himself to be party to. He
knew in that eternal moment that he had made a terrible mistake in
drawing the sword from the Laer temple, and he fought to release the
damnable blade that had brought him so low.
His grip was locked onto the weapon and even as he recognised how far
he had fallen, he knew that he had come too far to stop, the realisation
coupled with the knowledge that everything he had striven for had been
a lie.
As though moving in slow motion, Fulgrim saw Ferrus Manus reaching
for his fallen sword, his fingers closing around the wire-wound grip, the
flames leaping once more to the blade at its creator's touch.
Kill him before he kills you! NOW!
Fulgrim's blade seemed to move with a life of its own, but it had no need
of such impellents, for he swung the blade of his own volition.
The silver blade clove the air as it swept towards Ferrus Manus, and
Fulgrim felt the ancient triumph of the presence that he now knew had
dwelt within it all this time. He tried desperately to pull the blow, but his
muscles were no longer his own to control.
Unnatural warp-forged steel met the iron flesh of a primarch, its aberrant
edge cutting through Ferrus's skin, muscle and bone with a shrieking
howl that echoed in realms beyond those knowable to mortals.
Blood and the monumental energies bound within the meat and gristle of
one of the Emperor's sons erupted from the wound, and Fulgrim fell
back as the searing powers blinded him, dropping the silver sword at his
side. He heard a shrieking wail, as of a choir of banshees, whip around
him as phantom, skeletal hands clawed at him, and a thousand voices
tore at his mind.
Ghostly whirlwinds seized him and spun him around, twisting him like a
limp rag in their grip, and threatening to tear him limb from limb in
retribution. Even as he welcomed such oblivion, he felt another presence
move to protect him, the same presence that had guided his sword arm,
the same presence that had been his constant companion since Laeran,
though he had not known it.
Fulgrim fell to the ground as the winds released him, and faded with a
shrieking howl of anguished
frustration. He landed heavily and rolled onto his side, heaving great
gulps of cold air into his lungs as the sound of battle returned to him. He
heard cries of pain, gunfire, explosions and the rhythmic crack of bolters
as they fired relentless volley after volley. It was the sound of death.
It was the sound of a massacre.
His entire body aching with pain and loss, Fulgrim pushed himself
upright. Blood and the detritus of battle surrounded him, the stoic
figures of armoured warriors staring in wonder at the headless body that
lay-on the black ground before him.
Fulgrim took a shuddering breath and raised his hands to the heavens,
screaming his loss at the sight of his brother so cruelly murdered.
What have I done?' he howled. Throne save me, what have I done?'
What needed to be done.
Fulgrim heard the voice as a sibilant whisper in his ear, the breath of the
speaker hot on his neck. He twisted his neck, but there was nothing to be
seen, no unseen speaker or mysterious presence.
'He's dead/ whispered Fulgrim, the aching loss and guilt of his crime too
monstrous to believe. 'I killed him.'
Yes, you did. With your own hands, you struck down your brother, he
who had only thought well of you and fought faithfully with you through
all the long years.
This is exactly what happened at Istvaan V. Notice it matches what I said.
im2randomghgh wrote:An'ggrath was banished by an Inquisitor lord supported by all of the GK forces present at the SoV, yes.
Lexicanum says "personal combat."
Though, granted, I can't find SoV III, where this is detailed, so it could be inaccurate.
Oh, and:
Spoiler:
Ferrus Manus tore his eyes from the slaughter of the loyalist forces, his
teeth bared with the volcanic fury of his home world.
'Maybe not, traitor, but only dishonour holds any terror for me,' spat
Ferrus. 'The Emperor's loyal warriors will not surrender to you, not now,
not ever. You will have to kill every last one of us!'
'So be it/ said Fulgrim, launching himself towards Ferrus Manus,
swinging his mighty warhammer. The primarchs' weapons, forged in
brotherhood, but wielded in vengeance, met in a blazing plume of
energy, and the battlefield was illuminated for hundreds of metres by
their ferocious energies.
The two primarchs traded blows with their monstrously powerful
weapons, the strength to defeat armies and topple mountains unleashed
as they fought like gods forced to end their dispute in the realm of
mortals. Ferrus Manus wielded his flaming blade in fiery slashes, his
every blow defeated by the
ebony hafted hammer he had borne in countless campaigns.
Fulgrim swung his hammer in great, looping arcs, its heavy head
powerful enough to crush the armour of a Titan to paste. Both warriors
fought with the hatred only brothers divided can muster, their armour
dented, torn and blackened by the fury of their conflict.
To fight an opponent of such magnificence was a privilege, and Fulgrim
savoured every clash of hammer and sword, every fiery line cut across
his flesh and every grunt of pain torn from his brother's mouth as
Forgebreaker glanced his armour. They circled in the midst of cries of
pain and roaring savage glee, the Morlocks of Ferrus Manus slain, but
for a last few desperate heroes.
Ferrus cut the shoulder guard from Fulgrim's armour and spun inside his
guard to deliver a lethal thrust towards his groin. Fulgrim stepped to
meet the blow, batting aside the tip of the fiery sword with the haft of
Forgebreaker, and hammering the warham-mer's head towards Ferrus's
skull.
The Primarch of the Iron Hands took the blow, dropping to one knee and
lashing out with his blade as blood streamed from the terrible wound in
his temple. The sword's fiery tip cut across Fulgrim's stomach, opening
his armour and tearing through his flesh. The pain was indescribable,
and Fulgrim fell back, dropping his hammer as his hands sought to stem
the blood pouring from his body.
Both primarchs faced each other on their knees through a haze of pain
and blood, and Fulgrim once again felt an ache of sadness well within
him. The pain of his wounds, and the sight of his brother's broken skull
coated in blood, tore a window into his
mind. The sensation was like a powerful gust of fresh mountain air,
clearing away the fog that had wrapped him in a suffocating embrace for
so long that he no longer noticed it until it was gone.
'My brother/ he whispered, 'my friend.'
'You have long since lost the right to call me friend/ snarled Ferrus,
pushing himself to his feet and staggering towards Fulgrim with
Fireblade raised to smite him.
Fulgrim cried out, and his hand leapt unbidden to his waist as the
flaming blade carved a burning path towards his neck. Silver steel
flashed as he drew the sword he had taken from the Laer temple and
blocked the descending weapon. Ferrus's sword hissed and spat as it bit
into the silver blade, the Primarch of the Iron Hands' strength forcing the
blazing metal, centimetre by centimetre, towards Fulgrim's face.
'No!' cried Fulgrim. 'This is not right!'
The amethyst stone at the hilt of Fulgrim's sword pulsed with an evil
light, bathing Ferrus Manus's face in a leering purple glare. Energy
streamed from the blade, and musky smoke billowed around them,
deadening sounds and obscuring sight. Fulgrim felt a monstrous
presence swell around him, its power and nameless essence more
intoxicating and dreadful than anything he could ever have imagined.
Diabolical strength flooded his limbs and he pushed against the power of
Ferrus Manus, feeling his brother's surprise at his resistance. With a cry
of animal rage, he surged to his feet and hurled Ferrus Manus back,
spinning and lashing out with his sword.
The silver edge bit deep into the breastplate of his brother's armour, and
the Primarch of the Iron Hands cried out, falling to his knees once again
as the blade's flaring energies parted his dark armour like a fingernail
through cold grease. Hot blood sprayed from the wound and Fireblade
slid from Ferrus's hand as he gasped in fierce agony.
Finish him! Kill him! the voice screamed, and to Ful-grim it seemed as
though it echoed across time and space as well as within his skull. He
staggered with the blunt force of its imperative, lurching as though his
limbs were not his to control.
His normal grace and elan were forsaken as he falter-ingly raised the
silver sword in preparation of delivering the deathblow to Ferrus Manus.
Unknown energies coruscated along the notched blade and down the
length of his arms into the meat and bone of his wounded body.
Fulgrim was wreathed in purple fire. Crackling arcs of lightning
caressed him with a lover's tenderness, seeking out his open wounds and
licking them with balefire as they sought entry to his flesh.
Fulgrim stood above Ferrus Manus, his chest heaving convulsively as
his entire body shook with the violence of the power that sought to claim
him.
He must die! Otherwise he will kill you!
Fulgrim looked down at his defeated opponent and saw his own
reflection in the mirrors of Ferrus's eyes.
In an instant that stretched for an eternity, he saw what he had become
and what monstrous betrayal he had allowed himself to be party to. He
knew in that eternal moment that he had made a terrible mistake in
drawing the sword from the Laer temple, and he fought to release the
damnable blade that had brought him so low.
His grip was locked onto the weapon and even as he recognised how far
he had fallen, he knew that he had come too far to stop, the realisation
coupled with the knowledge that everything he had striven for had been
a lie.
As though moving in slow motion, Fulgrim saw Ferrus Manus reaching
for his fallen sword, his fingers closing around the wire-wound grip, the
flames leaping once more to the blade at its creator's touch.
Kill him before he kills you! NOW!
Fulgrim's blade seemed to move with a life of its own, but it had no need
of such impellents, for he swung the blade of his own volition.
The silver blade clove the air as it swept towards Ferrus Manus, and
Fulgrim felt the ancient triumph of the presence that he now knew had
dwelt within it all this time. He tried desperately to pull the blow, but his
muscles were no longer his own to control.
Unnatural warp-forged steel met the iron flesh of a primarch, its aberrant
edge cutting through Ferrus's skin, muscle and bone with a shrieking
howl that echoed in realms beyond those knowable to mortals.
Blood and the monumental energies bound within the meat and gristle of
one of the Emperor's sons erupted from the wound, and Fulgrim fell
back as the searing powers blinded him, dropping the silver sword at his
side. He heard a shrieking wail, as of a choir of banshees, whip around
him as phantom, skeletal hands clawed at him, and a thousand voices
tore at his mind.
Ghostly whirlwinds seized him and spun him around, twisting him like a
limp rag in their grip, and threatening to tear him limb from limb in
retribution. Even as he welcomed such oblivion, he felt another presence
move to protect him, the same presence that had guided his sword arm,
the same presence that had been his constant companion since Laeran,
though he had not known it.
Fulgrim fell to the ground as the winds released him, and faded with a
shrieking howl of anguished
frustration. He landed heavily and rolled onto his side, heaving great
gulps of cold air into his lungs as the sound of battle returned to him. He
heard cries of pain, gunfire, explosions and the rhythmic crack of bolters
as they fired relentless volley after volley. It was the sound of death.
It was the sound of a massacre.
His entire body aching with pain and loss, Fulgrim pushed himself
upright. Blood and the detritus of battle surrounded him, the stoic
figures of armoured warriors staring in wonder at the headless body that
lay-on the black ground before him.
Fulgrim took a shuddering breath and raised his hands to the heavens,
screaming his loss at the sight of his brother so cruelly murdered.
What have I done?' he howled. Throne save me, what have I done?'
What needed to be done.
Fulgrim heard the voice as a sibilant whisper in his ear, the breath of the
speaker hot on his neck. He twisted his neck, but there was nothing to be
seen, no unseen speaker or mysterious presence.
'He's dead/ whispered Fulgrim, the aching loss and guilt of his crime too
monstrous to believe. 'I killed him.'
Yes, you did. With your own hands, you struck down your brother, he
who had only thought well of you and fought faithfully with you through
all the long years.
This is exactly what happened at Istvaan V. Notice it matches what I said.
You dun goof'd. You know how you were all "Russ was flailing blindly so it don't count nah nah nah" right? That's exactly what Ferrus did. So in order to be able to say "Fulgrim wasn't that good he only won with help", You are acknowledging that Ferrus Manus was better, and he was winning via the same "blind luck" as Russ.
im2randomghgh wrote:You dun goof'd. You know how you were all "Russ was flailing blindly so it don't count nah nah nah" right? That's exactly what Ferrus did. So in order to be able to say "Fulgrim wasn't that good he only won with help", You are acknowledging that Ferrus Manus was better, and he was winning via the same "blind luck" as Russ.
Just as planned.
... No man.
Ferrus Manus took Fulgrim's blow, leaving Fulgrim open, so he then proceeded to attack his exposed stomach.
Ferrus Manus was able to do that because of sheer toughness and pragmatism, not because of a lucky hit.
And unlike Russ, Manus was holding his own against Fulgrim the entire fight, Magnus was largely dominating Russ.
And I wouldn't say that Manus is necessarily better than Fulgrim, they are on par.
im2randomghgh wrote:You dun goof'd. You know how you were all "Russ was flailing blindly so it don't count nah nah nah" right? That's exactly what Ferrus did. So in order to be able to say "Fulgrim wasn't that good he only won with help", You are acknowledging that Ferrus Manus was better, and he was winning via the same "blind luck" as Russ.
Just as planned.
... No man.
Ferrus Manus took Fulgrim's blow, leaving Fulgrim open, so he then proceeded to attack his exposed stomach.
Ferrus Manus was able to do that because of sheer toughness and pragmatism, not because of a lucky hit.
And unlike Russ, Manus was holding his own against Fulgrim the entire fight, Magnus was largely dominating Russ.
And I wouldn't say that Manus is necessarily better than Fulgrim, they are on par.
Well you seem to be forgetting that Fulgrim wiped the floor with Ferrus Manus during the first fight without daemonic assistance.
Frankly, I'm a little surprised this thread is still going since the last time I posted and hasn't digressed into a complete spit-fest. It's a touchy subject apparently which only goes to show how much the fluff of this universe has infected most of us here on Dakka. The opinions expressed in this thread are all fairly well thought out and backed by knowledge of the fluff. Especially interesting when it's about a topic such as this... and not 12 pages of diatribe concerning the height of a Space Marine.
For this reason I salute you all... beautiful... *sniff*
English Assassin is absolutely correct in his assessment of what the 40k universe has become, or rather, is trying to become; a tale filled to the brim with literary tragic heroes. I imagine the authors are attempting to lay something of a legendary foundation through the Horus Heresy books by fleshing out what was/is, imho, a kind of teen-angst pulp-novel approach to sci-fi. To be perfectly honest, I was loathe to read (I had attempted a few) any novel about the 40k universe before the HH novels because, frankly, most are poorly written and cater only to that part of the brain filled with an abnormal amount of testosterone lacking any real substance. This is not to say this series is immune, but I think the HH has lent the frachise a bit more cachet.
Trying to wrangle the 40k universe to fit that template will be difficult as it needs to move some of the more cartoonish aspects of the universe to the background. Yet it's just this aspect that drew many people to the fluff in the first place. How GW will reconcile this is rather dimly lit as of now.
It's just this twisting of the fluff that causes so many of us to view things from such divergent points of view. Something of a generalization to be sure, but here goes...
I see, along with apparently a few others, the story unfolding as a greek tragedy. This is preferable to me as I love the heroic myths of our own worlds past. When viewed from this perspective, it's impossible to see the traitor primarchs as anything but lost heroes forever suffering 'what might have been syndrome'. The transformation to demonhood a grim reflection of what they were due to their own hubris. While particularly unfulfilling to many, this, to people such as myself is the end all and be all of a good story.
When viewed from a pulpy perspective perhaps (and I truly mean that with no disrespect as I know some will take offence at that term), one tends to see the primarchs as betrayed sons of a degenerate emperor. Tending to rejoice in the fact that the separation from him can only lead to a better future. From this view the transformation to a demon cannot be seen as anything less than beneficial. After all, their true power and individualism can be expressed now that the shackles have been thrown off. Epic tales of anti-heroism and power. Demonhood and loss of humanity being completely irrelevant.
The battle between Fulgrim and Ferrus Manus might be an example. Some see from a simple win lose perspective. I see it as something far more deep and complicated. To say Ferrus Manus in losing his head lost the heroic argument doesn't reflect what he gained by the tragic nature of his fluff. He couldn't reconcile the fact that his brother could betray the Emperor... and him for that matter. Some say weak, I say pretty darn cool. For some, Fulgrims nature is the more interesting as the dashing expert swordsman more so than the somewhat reclusive inventor/engineer. The weak nerd deserved to die!! Ok, lol, that's a bit harsh and somewhat incorrect, but it's funny.
From where I sit, the loyalists don't need to survive to have won the argument. They win by not sucumbing to temptation through the denial of what they knew they were completely capable of attaining because of a belief in the Emperor and duty to mankind. A closer definition of the title 'hero' in my mind.
Uhlan wrote:Frankly, I'm a little surprised this thread is still going since the last time I posted and hasn't digressed into a complete spit-fest. It's a touchy subject apparently which only goes to show how much the fluff of this universe has infected most of us here on Dakka. The opinions expressed in this thread are all fairly well thought out and backed by knowledge of the fluff. Especially interesting when it's about a topic such as this... and not 12 pages of diatribe concerning the height of a Space Marine.
For this reason I salute you all... beautiful... *sniff*
English Assassin is absolutely correct in his assessment of what the 40k universe has become, or rather, is trying to become; a tale filled to the brim with literary tragic heroes. I imagine the authors are attempting to lay something of a legendary foundation through the Horus Heresy books by fleshing out what was/is, imho, a kind of teen-angst pulp-novel approach to sci-fi. To be perfectly honest, I was loathe to read (I had attempted a few) any novel about the 40k universe before the HH novels because, frankly, most are poorly written and cater only to that part of the brain filled with an abnormal amount of testosterone lacking any real substance. This is not to say this series is immune, but I think the HH has lent the frachise a bit more cachet.
Trying to wrangle the 40k universe to fit that template will be difficult as it needs to move some of the more cartoonish aspects of the universe to the background. Yet it's just this aspect that drew many people to the fluff in the first place. How GW will reconcile this is rather dimly lit as of now.
It's just this twisting of the fluff that causes so many of us to view things from such divergent points of view. Something of a generalization to be sure, but here goes...
I see, along with apparently a few others, the story unfolding as a greek tragedy. This is preferable to me as I love the heroic myths of our own worlds past. When viewed from this perspective, it's impossible to see the traitor primarchs as anything but lost heroes forever suffering 'what might have been syndrome'. The transformation to demonhood a grim reflection of what they were due to their own hubris. While particularly unfulfilling to many, this, to people such as myself is the end all and be all of a good story.
When viewed from a pulpy perspective perhaps (and I truly mean that with no disrespect as I know some will take offence at that term), one tends to see the primarchs as betrayed sons of a degenerate emperor. Tending to rejoice in the fact that the separation from him can only lead to a better future. From this view the transformation to a demon cannot be seen as anything less than beneficial. After all, their true power and individualism can be expressed now that the shackles have been thrown off. Epic tales of anti-heroism and power. Demonhood and loss of humanity being completely irrelevant.
The battle between Fulgrim and Ferrus Manus might be an example. Some see from a simple win lose perspective. I see it as something far more deep and complicated. To say Ferrus Manus in losing his head lost the heroic argument doesn't reflect what he gained by the tragic nature of his fluff. He couldn't reconcile the fact that his brother could betray the Emperor... and him for that matter. Some say weak, I say pretty darn cool. For some, Fulgrims nature is the more interesting as the dashing expert swordsman more so than the somewhat reclusive inventor/engineer. The weak nerd deserved to die!! Ok, lol, that's a bit harsh and somewhat incorrect, but it's funny.
From where I sit, the loyalists don't need to survive to have won the argument. They win by not sucumbing to temptation through the denial of what they knew they were completely capable of attaining because of a belief in the Emperor and duty to mankind. A closer definition of the title 'hero' in my mind.
Someone makes sense and you automatically agree? You realize you've spent a few pages in this and other threads trying to impede your own strange and twisted version of the setting?
Better dead than a minion, a slave bound in the image of a demon.
Why don't they return if they are in such good shape?
Wait..
The think they are in good shape, but thats an illusion.
They became grumpy old farts, geriatric and bitter.
Hmm, dead, and therefore having your soul devoured by Chaos, or a uberpowerful Daemon with the power to bend and shape a planet according to your whim?
I'd go with the latter.
And Guilliman undoubtedly has a more raw deal than the Daemon Primarchs. Feeling like you've been dying of poison for ten thousand years ftw.
Guilliman was not poisoned he was stabbed in the neck by fulgrim
Yes, he was poisoned, by Fulgrim's sword which is probably the Anathema, the same weapon that poisoned Horus during the Heresy. It's why he couldn't just heal his wound and must be kept in stasis.
He had his throat slit by an envenomed blade. If he was just stabbed, he could have walked away from that.
Of course, if that blade was indeed the Anathema, it takes away from Fulgrim's victory, since that sword allowed even a puny human Champion of Nurgle stand up on even ground to Horus.
iproxtaco wrote:Yes, he was poisoned, by Fulgrim's sword which is probably the Anathema, the same weapon that poisoned Horus during the Heresy. It's why he couldn't just heal his wound and must be kept in stasis.
Poisoned Horus? When did Fukgrim poison Horus?
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Omegus wrote:He had his throat slit by an envenomed blade. If he was just stabbed, he could have walked away from that.
Of course, if that blade was indeed the Anathema, it takes away from Fulgrim's victory, since that sword allowed even a puny human Champion of Nurgle stand up on even ground to Horus.
The slaanesh blades poison sets the victim into an uncurable coma (if thats what youre talking about), so any form of cutting or stabbing of any place would owrk fine.
Better dead than a minion, a slave bound in the image of a demon.
Why don't they return if they are in such good shape?
Wait..
The think they are in good shape, but thats an illusion.
They became grumpy old farts, geriatric and bitter.
Hmm, dead, and therefore having your soul devoured by Chaos, or a uberpowerful Daemon with the power to bend and shape a planet according to your whim?
I'd go with the latter.
And Guilliman undoubtedly has a more raw deal than the Daemon Primarchs. Feeling like you've been dying of poison for ten thousand years ftw.
Guilliman was not poisoned he was stabbed in the neck by fulgrim
Damn ninja's.
right?
dOOmbrEAd ? 
