Fluff wise how strong is Abaddon the Despoiler is he weaker or stronger in the fluff then in the rules?

Stronger. Much stronger.

It's hard to say.

I can't actually think of anyone he's fought in the fluff except for Eldrad, who supposedly beat him in an issue of White Dwarf.

Calling onto the fluff makes the characters -much- more powerful.

I honestly haven't read any books with Abbadon in them, and I've read a lot of books. Not including the Horus Heresy series, anyways.

In the fluff, he could probably take on anyone short of Draigo or a Primarch

He was the most powerful of Horus' four elite Luna Wolves. He retrieved Horus' body with a small raid and then rebuilt the shattered remains of the Black Legion. The got a powerful Daemon Sword, and most importantly, never in the fluff do you hear of him deciding to smack himself in the face with it. So, definitely more powerful in the fluff.

Don't forget he also has Horus's lightning claw too so he is a bad mother. Plus the LW joke that he was too big for his regular armor which is why he only wears he terminater armor

If I remember correctly he's supposed to be about the strength of a Daemon Primarch, considering that he's favored by all 4 Chaos Gods and they've offered him Daemonhood 12 times (probably 13 now). So yeah, he's more powerful in the fluff.

Coolyo294 wrote:Stronger. Much stronger.

Then again so is EVERYONE (balance issues and all).

in the fluff his daemon sword can destroy a landraider just by touching it right?

Abaddon the Spoiled

He have Terminator armor + power of Chaos undivided.
He is strong all right, but he is not good tactician at all.

Noisy_Marine wrote:I honestly haven't read any books with Abbadon in them, and I've read a lot of books. Not including the Horus Heresy series, anyways.

Then clearly you skipped the first three at least (that's how far I've gotten... and he's in all of them )

Brother Coa wrote:but he is not good tactician at all.

Really? Do you have any proof for this? Other than the fact that he's only broken the Cadian Gate on the 13th Black Crusade?

Henners91 wrote:Then clearly you skipped the first three at least (that's how far I've gotten... and he's in all of them )

He did say "Not including the Horus Heresy series, anyways."

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:but he is not good tactician at all.

Really? Do you have any proof for this? Other than the fact that he's only broken the Cadian Gate on the 13th Black Crusade?

12 times before that + he didn't even conquer Cadia at all. And Imperial forces are on the move so...

That's like saying someone is weak because it took them 13 squeezes to crush a diamond in their palm.

Brother Coa wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:but he is not good tactician at all.

Really? Do you have any proof for this? Other than the fact that he's only broken the Cadian Gate on the 13th Black Crusade?

12 times before that + he didn't even conquer Cadia at all. And Imperial forces are on the move so...

Not every black crusade was about breaking trough the cadian gate. Imperial reinforcements might be on the move but the Cadian sector is engulfed in warpstorms and both communications and travel are becoming increasingly difficult. For the moment Abaddon is on the move and the situation for Cadia's defenders looks grim.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:but he is not good tactician at all.

Really? Do you have any proof for this? Other than the fact that he's only broken the Cadian Gate on the 13th Black Crusade?

Henners91 wrote:Then clearly you skipped the first three at least (that's how far I've gotten... and he's in all of them )

He did say "Not including the Horus Heresy series, anyways."

Ahh I misread that... thought he meant not in the Horus Heresy series.

Sorry!

KingDeath wrote:
For the moment Abaddon is on the move and the situation for Cadia's defenders looks grim.

At least they have fleet above their heads that pwn heretics on Cadia.

Brother Coa wrote:

KingDeath wrote:
For the moment Abaddon is on the move and the situation for Cadia's defenders looks grim.

At least they have fleet above their heads that pwn heretics on Cadia.

No, they actually don't. Quarren lost the bulk of his fleet against Abaddon's blackstone fortress (13. black crusade p. 87 ).
While the good admiral achieved his goals and drove off the chaos armada there are no hints that the remains of the imperial fleet
are actually able to tip the balance in that war, especialy not with the Blackstone Fortress and the Planetkiller still at large.

Brother Coa wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:but he is not good tactician at all.

Really? Do you have any proof for this? Other than the fact that he's only broken the Cadian Gate on the 13th Black Crusade?

12 times before that + he didn't even conquer Cadia at all. And Imperial forces are on the move so...

No Crusade before the most recent were meant to break the Cadian Gate, both Abaddon and Ruven say so in Soul Hunter and Blood Reaver respectively. So, really, Abaddon had had one attempt at taking Cadian and he has succeeded.

Harriticus wrote:In the fluff, he could probably take on anyone short of Draigo or a Primarch

As much as Draigo is a hero in his owns terms.

If he went toe to toe with the despoiler he'd get off a little bit worse for the experience...

Perhaps even dead.

One can dream.

Even if his crusades don't suceed he kills millions probably billions, which I'm pretty sure is really impressive compare to other chaos lords.

iproxtaco wrote:No Crusade before the most recent were meant to break the Cadian Gate, both Abaddon and Ruven say so in Soul Hunter and Blood Reaver respectively. So, really, Abaddon had had one attempt at taking Cadian and he has succeeded.

I agree with this. Afterall, even Horus couldn't take the Imperium with a single attack. The Horus Heresy was hundreds of battles; would you consider Istvaan V a failure because it didn't kill the Emperor and conquer all of the Imperium?

Abbadon are probaly with the exception of Kharn one of the most dangerous and powerful beeing out there. And as other have stated, it took him baisicly one try to cut Cadia of from the Emperium, And who knows what he migth be up to in the next Crusade.

iproxtaco wrote:
No Crusade before the most recent were meant to break the Cadian Gate, both Abaddon and Ruven say so in Soul Hunter and Blood Reaver respectively. So, really, Abaddon had had one attempt at taking Cadian and he has succeeded.

Ok for all of that, he even got ground on some few planets in Cadian sector.
But Cadia hasn't fallen, and that was his failure.
But who knows? Maybe Necrons came in aid to the Imperials now


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LoneLictor wrote:would you consider Istvaan V a failure because it didn't kill the Emperor and conquer all of the Imperium?

Yes.
One victory don't mean the war was won.
+ he allowed some elements to escape thus the Emperor knew what happened exactly and had time to prepare a defense.

Abbadon is one bad mutha f**ka, The only other chaos lord after Horus to get all 4 chaos gods working together. To be able to do THAT, you have to be a killing machine of chaos.

And EVERYONE is much stronger in the fluff....

Trondheim wrote:Abbadon are probaly with the exception of Kharn one of the most dangerous and powerful beeing out there. And as other have stated, it took him baisicly one try to cut Cadia of from the Emperium, And who knows what he migth be up to in the next Crusade.

He's certainly one of the most personally powerful Chaos Lords in the galaxy, though I would say some followers of Chaos would rival him in personal strength.

Some Daemon Princes for example are stronger than he is, and Ahriman, while he would be hopeless in a physical battle, is an exceptionally powerful sorcerer.

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
No Crusade before the most recent were meant to break the Cadian Gate, both Abaddon and Ruven say so in Soul Hunter and Blood Reaver respectively. So, really, Abaddon had had one attempt at taking Cadian and he has succeeded.

Ok for all of that, he even got ground on some few planets in Cadian sector.
But Cadia hasn't fallen, and that was his failure.
But who knows? Maybe Necrons came in aid to the Imperials

Your mindless optimism never ceases to amaze me. Cadia is gone. Quarren's fleet is nearly gone, almost the entire surface of Cadia has been taken, and any reinforcements are going to have one hell of a time moving around near the Eye thanks to the Warp Storms. Cadia is gone, Chaos is allowed to move unopposed throughout the system.

iproxtaco wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
No Crusade before the most recent were meant to break the Cadian Gate, both Abaddon and Ruven say so in Soul Hunter and Blood Reaver respectively. So, really, Abaddon had had one attempt at taking Cadian and he has succeeded.

Ok for all of that, he even got ground on some few planets in Cadian sector.
But Cadia hasn't fallen, and that was his failure.
But who knows? Maybe Necrons came in aid to the Imperials

Your mindless optimism never ceases to amaze me. Cadia is gone. Quarren's fleet is nearly gone, almost the entire surface of Cadia has been taken, and any reinforcements are going to have one hell of a time moving around near the Eye thanks to the Warp Storms. Cadia is gone, Chaos is allowed to move unopposed throughout the system.

I thought Abbadon only got a peice of Cadia?

Sense when does he have all of it?

bombboy1252 wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
No Crusade before the most recent were meant to break the Cadian Gate, both Abaddon and Ruven say so in Soul Hunter and Blood Reaver respectively. So, really, Abaddon had had one attempt at taking Cadian and he has succeeded.

Ok for all of that, he even got ground on some few planets in Cadian sector.
But Cadia hasn't fallen, and that was his failure.
But who knows? Maybe Necrons came in aid to the Imperials

Your mindless optimism never ceases to amaze me. Cadia is gone. Quarren's fleet is nearly gone, almost the entire surface of Cadia has been taken, and any reinforcements are going to have one hell of a time moving around near the Eye thanks to the Warp Storms. Cadia is gone, Chaos is allowed to move unopposed throughout the system.

I thought Abbadon only got a peice of Cadia?

Sense when does he have all of it?

Half of Cadia is still in imperial hands ( and the chaos fleet actually suffered badly in the voidwar so it is not only Quarren's fleet which is depleted ), which is one of the reasons why the 13. Black Crusade isn't over yet.

bombboy1252 wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
No Crusade before the most recent were meant to break the Cadian Gate, both Abaddon and Ruven say so in Soul Hunter and Blood Reaver respectively. So, really, Abaddon had had one attempt at taking Cadian and he has succeeded.

Ok for all of that, he even got ground on some few planets in Cadian sector.
But Cadia hasn't fallen, and that was his failure.
But who knows? Maybe Necrons came in aid to the Imperials

Your mindless optimism never ceases to amaze me. Cadia is gone. Quarren's fleet is nearly gone, almost the entire surface of Cadia has been taken, and any reinforcements are going to have one hell of a time moving around near the Eye thanks to the Warp Storms. Cadia is gone, Chaos is allowed to move unopposed throughout the system.

I thought Abbadon only got a peice of Cadia?

Sense when does he have all of it?

He has a majority hold of the surface. Imperial forces have been pushed back to the smallest continent. I did not, at any point, say that Abaddon had control over Cadia. Imperial forces remain on Cadia, but since the fleet is gone Chaos forces can move unmolested.

iproxtaco wrote:
Your mindless optimism never ceases to amaze me. Cadia is gone. Quarren's fleet is nearly gone, almost the entire surface of Cadia has been taken, and any reinforcements are going to have one hell of a time moving around near the Eye thanks to the Warp Storms. Cadia is gone, Chaos is allowed to move unopposed throughout the system.

Caida is not gone, unless you have source that said that ( beside the fact that 3/4 of planet is in Chaos hands )?
They have orbital support + help is on the way while Chaos fleet is beaten and those unfortunate Chaos solders on Cadia will be overwhelmed by fresh Imperial troops when they arrive.

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
Your mindless optimism never ceases to amaze me. Cadia is gone. Quarren's fleet is nearly gone, almost the entire surface of Cadia has been taken, and any reinforcements are going to have one hell of a time moving around near the Eye thanks to the Warp Storms. Cadia is gone, Chaos is allowed to move unopposed throughout the system.

Caida is not gone, unless you have source that said that ( beside the fact that 3/4 of planet is in Chaos hands )?
They have orbital support + help is on the way while Chaos fleet is beaten and those unfortunate Chaos solders on Cadia will be overwhelmed by fresh Imperial troops when they arrive.

Exactly. Mindless optimism. The fact that Quarren's fleet is incapable of controlling the gate, and is about as battered as the Chaos fleet, means that Chaos can move unmolested through the Gate. The Imperium does not have orbital support, there aren't a huge amount of reinforcements, and any that do arrive will have a hard time getting through the numerous Warp storms. Cadia may not be controlled by Chaos, I never said it was, but it's not controlled by the Imperium anymore.

iproxtaco wrote:
Exactly. Mindless optimism. The fact that Quarren's fleet is incapable of controlling the gate, and is about as battered as the Chaos fleet, means that Chaos can move unmolested through the Gate. The Imperium does not have orbital support, there aren't a huge amount of reinforcements, and any that do arrive will have a hard time getting through the numerous Warp storms. Cadia may not be controlled by Chaos, I never said it was, but it's not controlled by the Imperium anymore.

True, I to believe it is a tie for everybody. Unless GW say otherwise.

The Cadian Gate is a gate. chaos doesn't need to have complete control over it to get through, they just need to force it open and get a wedge in afterwards. Which they've done. So Abaddon was successful.

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
Exactly. Mindless optimism. The fact that Quarren's fleet is incapable of controlling the gate, and is about as battered as the Chaos fleet, means that Chaos can move unmolested through the Gate. The Imperium does not have orbital support, there aren't a huge amount of reinforcements, and any that do arrive will have a hard time getting through the numerous Warp storms. Cadia may not be controlled by Chaos, I never said it was, but it's not controlled by the Imperium anymore.

True, I to believe it is a tie for everybody. Unless GW say otherwise.

Which they did. Gav Thorpe I believe said it was a minor victory for Chaos, in WD. There's a thread on dakka which details the results, it has the quote.

iproxtaco wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
Exactly. Mindless optimism. The fact that Quarren's fleet is incapable of controlling the gate, and is about as battered as the Chaos fleet, means that Chaos can move unmolested through the Gate. The Imperium does not have orbital support, there aren't a huge amount of reinforcements, and any that do arrive will have a hard time getting through the numerous Warp storms. Cadia may not be controlled by Chaos, I never said it was, but it's not controlled by the Imperium anymore.

True, I to believe it is a tie for everybody. Unless GW say otherwise.

Which they did. Gav Thorpe I believe said it was a minor victory for Chaos, in WD. There's a thread on dakka which details the results, it has the quote.

Where is the link?

Oh missing, so your questionable claims won't fall....

Gav thorpe also did a csm dex. Turned out well for the CSM.

My apologies, here it is -
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/392010.page

Oh, and here is the quote, from Andy Chambers, not Gav Thorpe -

Victory for Chaos! Not a complete victory, the forces of Order have held the line in many places and Cadia itself still defies the Arch Warmaster Abaddon. But nonetheless over eight weeks the forces ot Disorder have consistently out-fought and out-manoeuvred their opponents across the warzones of the Eye of Terror.

WD 287, Death by a Thousand Cuts by Andy Chambers

Medium of Death wrote:As much as Draigo is a hero in his owns terms.

If he went toe to toe with the despoiler he'd get off a little bit worse for the experience...

Perhaps even dead.

One can dream.

Game terms definitely, though Abaddon's current design pretty much forgoes any force-boosting potential to make him a melee monster at that cost. In terms of fluff though, as you were talking about, it seemed like GW really wanted to create an Imperial counterpart of similar, personal prowess.

iproxtaco wrote:My apologies, here it is -
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/392010.page

Oh, and here is the quote, from Andy Chambers, not Gav Thorpe -

Victory for Chaos! Not a complete victory, the forces of Order have held the line in many places and Cadia itself still defies the Arch Warmaster Abaddon. But nonetheless over eight weeks the forces ot Disorder have consistently out-fought and out-manoeuvred their opponents across the warzones of the Eye of Terror.

WD 287, Death by a Thousand Cuts by Andy Chambers

The Cadian Gate may not be open to the forces of Chaos, but their minions are over the walls in unprecedented numbers.

Tresspassers? will be eaten.



The imperial navy:

The time they won allowed the web of battlefleets and ships of the Emperor to close in around the Cadia Gate Where Imperial defences had been overstretched at the outset ot the war, by the end they stood reinforced by dozens of neighbouring battlefleets. Tiny patrols, at first hopelessly outnumbered and often overwhelmed by Abaddon's invasion, mustered together into battlefleets numbering hundreds of vessels. Space Marine Chapters committed their own fleets to the war in space and soon the Imperial Navy stood as an unbreakable circle of iron around Abaddon's forces. Where they had once failed to contain Abaddon's fleets as they emerged from the Eye. they now did just that to Abaddon's forces across Cadia. Agrippaa and a dozen other sectors, isolating them completely from one another. Abaddon's conquest of the worlds outlying the Eye of Terror may be almost complete, but by the grace of the Imperial Navy, few reinforcements were able to bolster his forces toward the end of the campaign.

The response of the IoM isn't quick, but certainly not powerless or scattered. Abby was immobilized, so his force has been sacrificed to enable him to move again. There is a reason why it is called a 'minor' victory.

The fight against chaos was joined by Eldar and Necrons. Worlds and systems held because these xenos ended the threat of abby's minions regularly. You may find it in the results page: ( a link in the linked post, sadly not sure if I have the WD myself to check it ):
http://redelf.narod.ru/w40k/eyeofterror/death_by_thousand_cuts.html

Take whatever you want from Chambers article, but I would suggest to keep the overall tone and stick with the outcome.
Which is and will stay this way a Abby typical attempt at brute force, killing lots of his 'allies' and in the end chaos only won a chance at some raids in limited strength instead of a real breakthrough.

1hadhq wrote:
Take whatever you want from Chambers article, but I would suggest to keep the overall tone and stick with the outcome.
Which is and will stay this way a Abby typical attempt at brute force, killing lots of his 'allies' and in the end chaos only won a chance at some raids in limited strength instead of a real breakthrough.

This, the Cadian Gate is still in the hands of the Imperium no matter 2/3 of the planet is in Chaos hands - Abbadon doesn't control the Gate, his fleet is beaten and he has no means to reinforce his troops on Cadia. And Ultramarines send their Honor Guard on Cadia to finish off the Heretics. And when the best Space Marines ever ( quote from M.W. ) send their elite warriors in battle that is automatic win for them

Brother Coa wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
Take whatever you want from Chambers article, but I would suggest to keep the overall tone and stick with the outcome.
Which is and will stay this way a Abby typical attempt at brute force, killing lots of his 'allies' and in the end chaos only won a chance at some raids in limited strength instead of a real breakthrough.

This, the Cadian Gate is still in the hands of the Imperium no matter 2/3 of the planet is in Chaos hands

It isn't. No one controls it.

Abbadon doesn't control the Gate, his fleet is beaten and he has no means to reinforce his troops on Cadia

No one has said Chaos controls the Gate. No faction does.

And Ultramarines send their Honor Guard on Cadia to finish off the Heretics. And when the best Space Marines ever ( quote from M.W. ) send their elite warriors in battle that is automatic win for them

Mindless optimism.

To state things simply, he is extremely powerful.

LoneLictor wrote:If I remember correctly he's supposed to be about the strength of a Daemon Primarch, considering that he's favored by all 4 Chaos Gods and they've offered him Daemonhood 12 times (probably 13 now). So yeah, he's more powerful in the fluff.

So, wait, the choas gods offer him deamonhood for every failed black crusade?

I forgot which but in the codex or rulebook it said that the last bit of imperium on cadia was on the smallest continent and chaos warships were over the planet fighting imperial warships and no food or water can come in so they will die from starvation

Kinda forgot were i red that.

I need to turn reading the line 'mindless optimism' into a drinking game.

Viersche wrote:in the fluff his daemon sword can destroy a landraider just by touching it right?

Well that only puts him on par with his in game abilities... I've popped a LR more than once with him!

He was pretty much a bad mamma jamma before the heresy now he is more on par with a primarch.

Phiasco II wrote:

LoneLictor wrote:If I remember correctly he's supposed to be about the strength of a Daemon Primarch, considering that he's favored by all 4 Chaos Gods and they've offered him Daemonhood 12 times (probably 13 now). So yeah, he's more powerful in the fluff.

So, wait, the choas gods offer him deamonhood for every failed black crusade?

No Crusade has failed. No other Crusade had the express purpose of taking Cadia. So really, he's had one attempt, and almost succeeded.

Well all those crusades failed in the end, with 13 being partial success - until Ultramarines, Space Wolves and others arrive anyway.

Brother Coa wrote:Well all those crusades failed in the end, with 13 being partial success - until Ultramarines, Space Wolves and others arrive anyway.

No, they didn't. If his goal is to take a minor Forge World and strip it of resources, and he succeeds, then that's a successful Black Crusade.
The last part is just more mindless optimism.

You're not going to destroy the Imperium in one fell swoop.

Abaddon knows this, 13 Black Crusades with 13 separate agendas with varying degrees of success. He's recovered Drach'nyen, slaughtered Blood Angels, invaded a Founding Chapters home world, sown terror and destruction, captured Blackstones and now has a foothold on Cadia. When the skies over Cadia are claimed he has a base of operation in material space and a constant supply line back to the Eye.

If he wanted to invade Terra he could have done that already, but would have had his butt handed to him. He's got vision and is playing the long game, he has all the time anyone could ever want. When Cadia is firmly in his grasp woe betide the Imperium, for it will burn.

Abaddon isn't concerned with ascendancy. He already is the favoured of the Pantheon and he can achieve a lot more as he is.

In some respects, Abaddon is a better commander than Horus was. The Warmaster assaulted Terra, but placed all his eggs in one basket, and his gamble failed. At least Abaddon knows to play the long game. Every Crusade he has led has built up to this final battle. I'd say it has payed off, considering he has almost take Cadia.

iproxtaco wrote:
No, they didn't. If his goal is to take a minor Forge World and strip it of resources, and he succeeds, then that's a successful Black Crusade.
The last part is just more mindless optimism.

What? The codex did say that help are on their way and that several Space Marine chapters are with them.
It's your mindless optimism to think that Abbadon's forces with no support from defeated Chaos fleet will last when they arrive.

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
No, they didn't. If his goal is to take a minor Forge World and strip it of resources, and he succeeds, then that's a successful Black Crusade.
The last part is just more mindless optimism.

What? The codex did say that help are on their way and that several Space Marine chapters are with them.
It's your mindless optimism to think that Abbadon's forces with no support from defeated Chaos fleet will last when they arrive.

I've made no point about Abaddon's future prospects. Right now? The Gate is open, no one controls it. If you want me to speculate then fine. Abaddon has taken the majority of Cadia's surface. That includes fortresses, supplies, orbital defenses etc. The majority of his forces are on the planet, that includes uncounted numbers of mortal soldiers, and huge numbers of Astartes. That amount of force based on the planet is going to be extremely difficult if not impossible to shift. Currently, his fleet has retreated. It's strength is unknown, but we do know there is another Planetkiller and a Blackstone Fortress still at large. That poses a huge problem to the weakened Imperial Navy. Sure, there's some reinforcements on the way. Firstly, we do not know the size or composition of this supposed force. It could be a handful of regiments, or it could be an entire Crusade. Considering the already weakened state of the surrounding system's defenses, I'm going to say it's not as much as you think, definitely not enough to retake Cadia and other planets Abaddon controls. Now, providing they exist, these reinforcements are going to have a difficult time making their way through the Warp Storms and then coordinating a possible defense. Saying that a few Chapters of Astartes are going to uproot the forces of Chaos on Cadia is stupidly optimistic. It's quite clear that Cadia is pretty much gone, unless the Imperium wants to re-route forces from huge distances, weakening other vulnerable areas. They aren't going to do that. Cadia is gone.

Chaos troll is a Chaos troll....

1. Chaos forces left on Cadia can't take control of the rest of the planet.
2. Imperial Navy is controlling the Cadian airspace.
3. Abbadon's fleet is beaten and he has no way of bringing help.
4. if 1 Astartes chapter can halt entire Tyranid Hive Fleet ( Blood Ravens, Ultramarines x 2 ) then seveal marine chapters can without great difficulties retake the planet.
5. They are probably escorted by several Cadian Regiments recalled to their homeworld to help.

It's over for Chaos, in 42'nd millennium Cadia is still Imperial world.
I am done here, everything else to say is pure speculation and talking nonsense.

He's gotta be one of the strongest dudes in the 40k universe tbh favoured by all four gods and being the best marine Horus ever had. He may not have taken over cadia but he's only one fella so I'm sure thats preeeeeeeetty reasonable lol

As for comparisons, Calgar may be able to stand up to him seen as he killed an Avatar, it being a demi-god and all..........

iproxtaco wrote:
No Crusade has failed. No other Crusade had the express purpose of taking Cadia. So really, he's had one attempt, and almost succeeded.

optimism at its best....

iproxtaco wrote:
The last part is just more mindless optimism.

You are aware of the style of your posts. Good. Feared we should take this discussion of abby serious.

Pilau Rice wrote:You're not going to destroy the Imperium in one fell swoop.

Abaddon knows this, 13 Black Crusades with 13 separate agendas with varying degrees of success. He's recovered Drach'nyen, slaughtered Blood Angels, invaded a Founding Chapters home world, sown terror and destruction, captured Blackstones and now has a foothold on Cadia. When the skies over Cadia are claimed he has a base of operation in material space and a constant supply line back to the Eye.

If he wanted to invade Terra he could have done that already, but would have had his butt handed to him. He's got vision and is playing the long game, he has all the time anyone could ever want. When Cadia is firmly in his grasp woe betide the Imperium, for it will burn.

Abaddon isn't concerned with ascendancy. He already is the favoured of the Pantheon and he can achieve a lot more as he is.

Cool. paralell universe of 40k. Would it be acceptable to read the article? To accept the outcome as is?
Cause to think abby got a vision and able to play to a long term plan...

iproxtaco wrote:In some respects, Abaddon is a better commander than Horus was. The Warmaster assaulted Terra, but placed all his eggs in one basket, and his gamble failed. At least Abaddon knows to play the long game. Every Crusade he has led has built up to this final battle. I'd say it has payed off, considering he has almost take Cadia.

Can't decide what you want to claim, can't you?
Horus was able to convince others to support him, was able to redirect the forces of the imperium.
Abaddon has just greed and fear to motivate his followship. And already pissed on xenos to move them to the side of the IoM if he attacks.
Somehow, Horus halved the imperial forces and kept the xeno out. Abby? Generates foes like cheap bread.

iproxtaco wrote:
Abaddon has taken the majority of Cadia's surface. That includes fortresses, supplies, orbital defenses etc. The majority of his forces are on the planet, that includes uncounted numbers of mortal soldiers, and huge numbers of Astartes. That amount of force based on the planet is going to be extremely difficult if not impossible to shift. Currently, his fleet has retreated. It's strength is unknown, but we do know there is another Planetkiller and a Blackstone Fortress still at large.

Uncounted could end with just a few are there and alive and kicking....
2 unknown don't make for a good comparision of chances.

iproxtaco wrote:
It's quite clear that Cadia is pretty much gone, unless the Imperium wants to re-route forces from huge distances, weakening other vulnerable areas. They aren't going to do that. Cadia is gone.

Again, why is it so hard to accept the decision GW made?
The obvious decision, not to hand over Cadia ever? Have you listened to the GD reports and the questions about worldwide campaigns? GW pretty much said they won't allow to be moved where they don't like to go. Exactly that happened to EoT.
I may not understand how one can think GW would aim for a decisive victory of chaos.
Wasn't it clear where a chaos leader may end? shall I point at whfb and this guy on his demonic steed?

So no, Cadia is not gone.
But the chance to influence the fluff is.

Brother Coa wrote:Chaos troll is a Chaos troll....

1. Chaos forces left on Cadia can't take control of the rest of the planet.
2. Imperial Navy is controlling the Cadian airspace.
3. Abbadon's fleet is beaten and he has no way of bringing help.
4. if 1 Astartes chapter can halt entire Tyranid Hive Fleet ( Blood Ravens, Ultramarines x 2 ) then seveal marine chapters can without great difficulties retake the planet.
5. They are probably escorted by several Cadian Regiments recalled to their homeworld to help.

It's over for Chaos, in 42'nd millennium Cadia is still Imperial world.
I am done here, everything else to say is pure speculation and talking nonsense.

Imperial troll is a Imperial troll

1. Chaos forces left on Cadia are still fighting. Wether or not Creed's order to not give a single step to the enemy is a realistic one is open for debate.
2. Imperial Forces seem to control the spacelanes but, as it has been described in the 13. Black Crusade sourcebook, Quarren lost the bulk of his fleet.
3. Just as the Imperium of Mankind will have to penetrate the warpstorms which engulf the Cadian gate if any reinforcements are to be sent to Cadia.
4. The Bloodravens managed to halt a small splinterfleet, in cooperation with an entire subsector's worth of pdf troops. The Ultramarines ultimately managed to beat Behemoth trough the sacrifice of nearly 200 imperial warships including the Dominus Astra. On the ground they were supported by titans and, of course, ultramar pdf troops. Spacemarines by themselfs are, thanks to their limited numbers and very limited amount of heavy equipment, wholy inadequate if you actually wish to conquer a planet.
5. It doesn't matter how many cadian regiments are recalled to Cadia if the system/ sector itself is cut off by warpstorms. Depending on the size of those storms the situation might be just as bad as during the 12. Black Crusade.

I therefore fail to see how it is "over for Chaos" and how Cadia must be an imperial world in the 42. millenium. Perhaps Creed suceeds (by stalling chaos until the warpstorms fade for example ) or perhaps he fails and Cadia becomes a daemonworld which shares the fate of poor Ulthor. What we actually know is that the cadian gate as well as the surrounding sectors, including Scarus which is in severe danger of being conquered by a huge ork whaagh and Agripina which has been devastated, are engulfed in a bitter struggle for survival. While Agripina might have been saved for now ( although the loss of several hive and agriworlds might affect the sector severely )

1hadhq wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:You're not going to destroy the Imperium in one fell swoop.

Abaddon knows this, 13 Black Crusades with 13 separate agendas with varying degrees of success. He's recovered Drach'nyen, slaughtered Blood Angels, invaded a Founding Chapters home world, sown terror and destruction, captured Blackstones and now has a foothold on Cadia. When the skies over Cadia are claimed he has a base of operation in material space and a constant supply line back to the Eye.

If he wanted to invade Terra he could have done that already, but would have had his butt handed to him. He's got vision and is playing the long game, he has all the time anyone could ever want. When Cadia is firmly in his grasp woe betide the Imperium, for it will burn.

Abaddon isn't concerned with ascendancy. He already is the favoured of the Pantheon and he can achieve a lot more as he is.

Cool. paralell universe of 40k. Would it be acceptable to read the article? To accept the outcome as is?
Cause to think abby got a vision and able to play to a long term plan...

How is that a parallel universe, those are things that Abaddons forces have achieved during his Black Crusades, and the proof is in the pudding, 13 Black Crusades and he's more than likely still got more things planned, if they decide to advance the timeline on that is.

I'm not sure on your point concerning the article as I accept that it wasn't a full win for Chaos, nor have I said it was.

KingDeath wrote:

Imperial troll is a Imperial troll

Said by the guy that say "corpse emperor" all the time.
Chaos troll is a Chaos troll....

1hadhq wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
No Crusade has failed. No other Crusade had the express purpose of taking Cadia. So really, he's had one attempt, and almost succeeded.

optimism at its best....

Read the Night Lord's series. Both Ruven and Abaddon himself say as much.

iproxtaco wrote:
The last part is just more mindless optimism.

You are aware of the style of your posts. Good. Feared we should take this discussion of abby serious.

Yes, reasoned and balanced, going off the results of the campaign rather than wishlisting the outcome.

Pilau Rice wrote:You're not going to destroy the Imperium in one fell swoop.

Abaddon knows this, 13 Black Crusades with 13 separate agendas with varying degrees of success. He's recovered Drach'nyen, slaughtered Blood Angels, invaded a Founding Chapters home world, sown terror and destruction, captured Blackstones and now has a foothold on Cadia. When the skies over Cadia are claimed he has a base of operation in material space and a constant supply line back to the Eye.

If he wanted to invade Terra he could have done that already, but would have had his butt handed to him. He's got vision and is playing the long game, he has all the time anyone could ever want. When Cadia is firmly in his grasp woe betide the Imperium, for it will burn.

Abaddon isn't concerned with ascendancy. He already is the favoured of the Pantheon and he can achieve a lot more as he is.

Cool. paralell universe of 40k. Would it be acceptable to read the article? To accept the outcome as is?
Cause to think abby got a vision and able to play to a long term plan...

I think you just find it difficult to admit anything else other than an Imperial victory.

iproxtaco wrote:In some respects, Abaddon is a better commander than Horus was. The Warmaster assaulted Terra, but placed all his eggs in one basket, and his gamble failed. At least Abaddon knows to play the long game. Every Crusade he has led has built up to this final battle. I'd say it has payed off, considering he has almost take Cadia.

Can't decide what you want to claim, can't you?
Horus was able to convince others to support him, was able to redirect the forces of the imperium.
Abaddon has just greed and fear to motivate his followship. And already pissed on xenos to move them to the side of the IoM if he attacks.
Somehow, Horus halved the imperial forces and kept the xeno out. Abby? Generates foes like cheap bread.

In some respects, being the key phrase of my post. He's still aware of the fact that putting all your eggs in one basket is a bad idea. Evidence: Horus's failure at Terra. He gambled in an even confrontation, and lost the bet. We already know Abaddon thinks Horus a fool for his failure.

iproxtaco wrote:
Abaddon has taken the majority of Cadia's surface. That includes fortresses, supplies, orbital defenses etc. The majority of his forces are on the planet, that includes uncounted numbers of mortal soldiers, and huge numbers of Astartes. That amount of force based on the planet is going to be extremely difficult if not impossible to shift. Currently, his fleet has retreated. It's strength is unknown, but we do know there is another Planetkiller and a Blackstone Fortress still at large.

Uncounted could end with just a few are there and alive and kicking....
2 unknown don't make for a good comparision of chances.

I'm not even sure what that means. Uncounted means lots in this context.

iproxtaco wrote:
It's quite clear that Cadia is pretty much gone, unless the Imperium wants to re-route forces from huge distances, weakening other vulnerable areas. They aren't going to do that. Cadia is gone.

Again, why is it so hard to accept the decision GW made?
The obvious decision, not to hand over Cadia ever? Have you listened to the GD reports and the questions about worldwide campaigns? GW pretty much said they won't allow to be moved where they don't like to go. Exactly that happened to EoT.
I may not understand how one can think GW would aim for a decisive victory of chaos.
Wasn't it clear where a chaos leader may end? shall I point at whfb and this guy on his demonic steed?

So no, Cadia is not gone.
But the chance to influence the fluff is.

The decision GW made was not to advance the timeline. I'm speculating about a hypothectical future that likely wont happen. The result speak for themselves, Cadia is lost to the Imperium in the current situation. So yes, upon the outcome of the campaign and the Imperium's future on the Cadia, the planet is lost to them.

iproxtaco wrote:
Read the Night Lord's series. Both Ruven and Abaddon himself say as much.

Ruven can't be relied upon.
Abaddon himself? Who cares for the insane first captain of the sons of horus? Was he able to outsmart the NL ?
BTW, the series has a line where the power of huron blackheart is considered equal to abbys. How about that?

iproxtaco wrote:
I think you just find it difficult to admit anything else other than an Imperial victory.

Where did I call it an imperial victory?
Wasn't even fond to be dragged into the "iproxtaco vs brother coa" event here, but sadly some of the claims made cannot go unopposed.
In a war in 3d, with air, orbit and space as additional battlefields, controlling parts of the ground isn't a win. Beeing encircled and lack of control of possible reinforcement routes is also nothing positive.
This struggle for control will benefit 3rd parties.
Chaos? The denizens of the warp laugh their ass off, their mortal followers die in droves.
IoM has more grimdarkness in its backyard so its just one of many ongoing conflicts.

The important bit youre missing is:
- Eldar chose to oppose chaos.
- Necrons chose to oppose chaos.

so its 3 vs 1. Humans and elfs and undead vs demons and mutants. Humans won't win as this endangers the grimdarkness, Elfs don't count, chaos always looses in the end, seems it goes to the undead.....all hail our metallic overlords

iproxtaco wrote:
I'm not even sure what that means. Uncounted means lots in this context.

Uncounted as uncounted by GW and therefore speculation.

iproxtaco wrote:
The decision GW made was not to advance the timeline. I'm speculating about a hypothectical future that likely wont happen. The result speak for themselves, Cadia is lost to the Imperium in the current situation. So yes, upon the outcome of the campaign and the Imperium's future on the Cadia, the planet is lost to them.

The timeline has not advanced before the EoT campaign and not afterwards.
IMO the questions asked at GD aus reveal a lot of the intend of GW.
Maybe you should once read codex imperial guard. Go find me there the loss of Cadia.
Hint: EoT is talked of inside that dex, and Cadia isn't stated as lost there.

The hypothetical future you are speculating on is unlikely to happen as GW already decided against this move.

iproxtaco wrote:Not too sure about that. Quarren's fleet isn't too big at the moment, not that they'd be able to do much against entrenched Chaos ground forces controlling Cadia's fortresses and orbital defences across the majority of the surface.

It has retreated into the Eye. There's still a Blackstone Fortress and a Planet Killer on the lose. His fleet isn't done just yet.

1) blackstones lead to Eldar on your ass.
2) planet killer? Was a bad idea and won't be allowed to show up again. No one would like this thing to exist.
3)
I'll repost the quote from WD:

The time they won allowed the web of battlefleets and ships of the Emperor to close in around the Cadia Gate Where Imperial defences had been overstretched at the outset ot the war, by the end they stood reinforced by dozens of neighbouring battlefleets. Tiny patrols, at first hopelessly outnumbered and often overwhelmed by Abaddon's invasion, mustered together into battlefleets numbering hundreds of vessels. Space Marine Chapters committed their own fleets to the war in space and soon the Imperial Navy stood as an unbreakable circle of iron around Abaddon's forces. Where they had once failed to contain Abaddon's fleets as they emerged from the Eye. they now did just that to Abaddon's forces across Cadia. Agrippaa and a dozen other sectors, isolating them completely from one another. Abaddon's conquest of the worlds outlying the Eye of Terror may be almost complete, but by the grace of the Imperial Navy, few reinforcements were able to bolster his forces toward the end of the campaign.

cut out from this:
mustered together into battlefleets numbering hundreds of vessels. Space Marine Chapters committed their own fleets to the war in space and soon the Imperial Navy stood as an unbreakable circle of iron around Abaddon's forces.

Seems one is caught and immobilized. Next step is annhilation. Encircled forces tend to give up or die......

1hadhq wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
Read the Night Lord's series. Both Ruven and Abaddon himself say as much.

Ruven can't be relied upon.
Abaddon himself? Who cares for the insane first captain of the sons of horus? Was he able to outsmart the NL ?
BTW, the series has a line where the power of huron blackheart is considered equal to abbys. How about that?

iproxtaco wrote:
I think you just find it difficult to admit anything else other than an Imperial victory.

Where did I call it an imperial victory?
Wasn't even fond to be dragged into the "iproxtaco vs brother coa" event here, but sadly some of the claims made cannot go unopposed.
In a war in 3d, with air, orbit and space as additional battlefields, controlling parts of the ground isn't a win. Beeing encircled and lack of control of possible reinforcement routes is also nothing positive.
This struggle for control will benefit 3rd parties.
Chaos? The denizens of the warp laugh their ass off, their mortal followers die in droves.
IoM has more grimdarkness in its backyard so its just one of many ongoing conflicts.

The important bit youre missing is:
- Eldar chose to oppose chaos.
- Necrons chose to oppose chaos.

so its 3 vs 1. Humans and elfs and undead vs demons and mutants. Humans won't win as this endangers the grimdarkness, Elfs don't count, chaos always looses in the end, seems it goes to the undead.....all hail our metallic overlords

So you're saying that the good guys won't win because that's not dark enough, but the bad guys aren't allowed to win either... I really don't see how this can seem logical to you. You've discounted three of the four contenders for no apparent reason.

iproxtaco wrote:
I'm not even sure what that means. Uncounted means lots in this context.

Uncounted as uncounted by GW and therefore speculation.

'Uncounted meaning 'a lot'. As it usually does.

iproxtaco wrote:
The decision GW made was not to advance the timeline. I'm speculating about a hypothectical future that likely wont happen. The result speak for themselves, Cadia is lost to the Imperium in the current situation. So yes, upon the outcome of the campaign and the Imperium's future on the Cadia, the planet is lost to them.

The timeline has not advanced before the EoT campaign and not afterwards.
IMO the questions asked at GD aus reveal a lot of the intend of GW.
Maybe you should once read codex imperial guard. Go find me there the loss of Cadia.
Hint: EoT is talked of inside that dex, and Cadia isn't stated as lost there.

The hypothetical future you are speculating on is unlikely to happen as GW already decided against this move.

There's also an instance of a dead regiment being sentenced to death. Your argument is invalid.

iproxtaco wrote:Not too sure about that. Quarren's fleet isn't too big at the moment, not that they'd be able to do much against entrenched Chaos ground forces controlling Cadia's fortresses and orbital defences across the majority of the surface.

It has retreated into the Eye. There's still a Blackstone Fortress and a Planet Killer on the lose. His fleet isn't done just yet.

1) blackstones lead to Eldar on your ass.

And what happened to the last Eldar to go into a Blackstone?

2) planet killer? Was a bad idea and won't be allowed to show up again. No one would like this thing to exist.

Yes, because that's the only bad idea that's been used...

3)
I'll repost the quote from WD:

The time they won allowed the web of battlefleets and ships of the Emperor to close in around the Cadia Gate Where Imperial defences had been overstretched at the outset ot the war, by the end they stood reinforced by dozens of neighbouring battlefleets. Tiny patrols, at first hopelessly outnumbered and often overwhelmed by Abaddon's invasion, mustered together into battlefleets numbering hundreds of vessels. Space Marine Chapters committed their own fleets to the war in space and soon the Imperial Navy stood as an unbreakable circle of iron around Abaddon's forces. Where they had once failed to contain Abaddon's fleets as they emerged from the Eye. they now did just that to Abaddon's forces across Cadia. Agrippaa and a dozen other sectors, isolating them completely from one another. Abaddon's conquest of the worlds outlying the Eye of Terror may be almost complete, but by the grace of the Imperial Navy, few reinforcements were able to bolster his forces toward the end of the campaign.

cut out from this:
mustered together into battlefleets numbering hundreds of vessels. Space Marine Chapters committed their own fleets to the war in space and soon the Imperial Navy stood as an unbreakable circle of iron around Abaddon's forces.

Seems one is caught and immobilized. Next step is annhilation. Encircled forces tend to give up or die......

Unless they wanted to be surrounded...

Durza wrote:
So you're saying that the good guys won't win because that's not dark enough, but the bad guys aren't allowed to win either... I really don't see how this can seem logical to you. You've discounted three of the four contenders for no apparent reason.

It follows GW's logic.
Do I need to say more?

Durza wrote:
There's also an instance of a dead regiment being sentenced to death. Your argument is invalid.

When bureaucrats miss to record changes of status this invalidates what I am saying how?

Exactly not an inch,as its unrelated.
So maybe a certain company does not write the story like some fans want them to. And said company even stated they won't allow the fanbase to influence the fluff in global campaigns again. Xenos benefited from the outcome, chaos? Was there a codex in 5th?
Anything altered on Cadia's status in 5th?
Go on underestimate the will of GW to have their way. It directly leads to disappointment.

Durza wrote:
And what happened to the last Eldar to go into a Blackstone?

Hes still a playable character?

Durza wrote:
Unless they wanted to be surrounded...

Surely they want to be cast down.

Not being entirely sure what 'exactly not an inch' means, I'm going to assume it meant 'It doesn't'. And just because Cadia isn't listed as lost doesn't mean it's not fiercely contested.

Just because he's a playable character doesn't mean he's not dead.

Contested would be accurate.


EoT is from 2003.
Codex IG is from 2008.

GW had a few years to consider to integrate campaign results or not to. Both sources show Cadia as contested.
Thus its an active warzone, like Armageddon. Would you call Armageddon lost because its unlikely they get rid of the orks there completly?

GW has listed worlds as lost if they want to, like worlds turned into demon worlds, eaten by nids, exterminated, etc etc.
Cadia is too integral to the background. A change like 'cadia lost' wouldn't come without an alternate course of the Background.
But 5th has kept the course of 'contested' places and incoming threats.

If someone says Mindless Optimism one more time I will burn them

Durza wrote:most importantly, never in the fluff do you hear of him deciding to smack himself in the face with it. So, definitely more powerful in the fluff.

Best way of putting it.....ever.

Thanks

1hadhq wrote:Contested would be accurate.


EoT is from 2003.
Codex IG is from 2008.

GW had a few years to consider to integrate campaign results or not to. Both sources show Cadia as contested.
Thus its an active warzone, like Armageddon. Would you call Armageddon lost because its unlikely they get rid of the orks there completly?

GW has listed worlds as lost if they want to, like worlds turned into demon worlds, eaten by nids, exterminated, etc etc.
Cadia is too integral to the background. A change like 'cadia lost' wouldn't come without an alternate course of the Background.
But 5th has kept the course of 'contested' places and incoming threats.

Might not be lost, but I sure wouldn't want to live there.

Durza wrote:
Might not be lost, but I sure wouldn't want to live there.

I would...

Really? I'd prefer somewhere nice where there's an infinite supply of plot armour. Titan maybe.

Billagio wrote:If someone says Mindless Optimism one more time I will burn them

Oh that's just Mindless Optimism.


*duck*


Someone brought up Eldrad. it's not unheard for GW to use dead characters as playable in Codexes(codii, whatever) Jacobus from the SoB, died from some crazy lung virus and is in almost every sisters list.

1hadhq wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
Read the Night Lord's series. Both Ruven and Abaddon himself say as much.

Ruven can't be relied upon.
Abaddon himself? Who cares for the insane first captain of the sons of horus? Was he able to outsmart the NL ?
BTW, the series has a line where the power of huron blackheart is considered equal to abbys. How about that?

Ruven also says Abaddon's might is greater than that of Horus. Talos agrees. Yes, Ruven is unpredictable, but citing him as unreliable because he gives evidence to back my point is silly. Abaddon is far from insane, and again, backs my point. His goals, however small, were more or less achieved during his Crusades.

iproxtaco wrote:
I think you just find it difficult to admit anything else other than an Imperial victory.

Where did I call it an imperial victory?
Wasn't even fond to be dragged into the "iproxtaco vs brother coa" event here, but sadly some of the claims made cannot go unopposed.
In a war in 3d, with air, orbit and space as additional battlefields, controlling parts of the ground isn't a win. Beeing encircled and lack of control of possible reinforcement routes is also nothing positive.

Controlling parts of the ground isn't a win, nor did I say it was. However, it puts the forces of Chaos in a position to hold out in the long term.

This struggle for control will benefit 3rd parties.
Chaos? The denizens of the warp laugh their ass off, their mortal followers die in droves.
IoM has more grimdarkness in its backyard so its just one of many ongoing conflicts.

The important bit youre missing is:
- Eldar chose to oppose chaos.
- Necrons chose to oppose chaos.

so its 3 vs 1. Humans and elfs and undead vs demons and mutants. Humans won't win as this endangers the grimdarkness, Elfs don't count, chaos always looses in the end, seems it goes to the undead.....all hail our metallic overlords

What does that even mean? Nothing really. It's not Necrons, humans and Eldar versus Chaos. They former three aren't allies, and fought each other during the campaign.

iproxtaco wrote:
I'm not even sure what that means. Uncounted means lots in this context.

Uncounted as uncounted by GW and therefore speculation.

Uncounted, as in the vast majority of situations, especially this one, means lots. I'm the one that used the word, that's what I meant behind it.

iproxtaco wrote:
The decision GW made was not to advance the timeline. I'm speculating about a hypothectical future that likely wont happen. The result speak for themselves, Cadia is lost to the Imperium in the current situation. So yes, upon the outcome of the campaign and the Imperium's future on the Cadia, the planet is lost to them.

The timeline has not advanced before the EoT campaign and not afterwards.
IMO the questions asked at GD aus reveal a lot of the intend of GW.
Maybe you should once read codex imperial guard. Go find me there the loss of Cadia.
Hint: EoT is talked of inside that dex, and Cadia isn't stated as lost there.

The hypothetical future you are speculating on is unlikely to happen as GW already decided against this move.

Irrelevant. The results speak for themselves. Whatever GW's suits say is irrelevant to me. They ran this campaign, here's the end product, a Cadia that has been lost to the enemy in all but the tag they give it.

iproxtaco wrote:Not too sure about that. Quarren's fleet isn't too big at the moment, not that they'd be able to do much against entrenched Chaos ground forces controlling Cadia's fortresses and orbital defences across the majority of the surface.

It has retreated into the Eye. There's still a Blackstone Fortress and a Planet Killer on the lose. His fleet isn't done just yet.

1) blackstones lead to Eldar on your ass.

Good job they did there as well. Eldrad died, and the only successful destruction of a Blackstone Fortress was carried out by the Necrons, who aren't doing it to defend the Imperium, merely for their own gain. There's still another one, in the hands of Chaos. Ignoring it as a significant threat is again, silly.

2) planet killer? Was a bad idea and won't be allowed to show up again. No one would like this thing to exist.

There's another one, thanks Planetstrike. Whether you dislike the idea is another irrelevant point. It exists, it's a major threat to any ships opposing Chaos.

3)
I'll repost the quote from WD:

The time they won allowed the web of battlefleets and ships of the Emperor to close in around the Cadia Gate Where Imperial defences had been overstretched at the outset ot the war, by the end they stood reinforced by dozens of neighbouring battlefleets. Tiny patrols, at first hopelessly outnumbered and often overwhelmed by Abaddon's invasion, mustered together into battlefleets numbering hundreds of vessels. Space Marine Chapters committed their own fleets to the war in space and soon the Imperial Navy stood as an unbreakable circle of iron around Abaddon's forces. Where they had once failed to contain Abaddon's fleets as they emerged from the Eye. they now did just that to Abaddon's forces across Cadia. Agrippaa and a dozen other sectors, isolating them completely from one another. Abaddon's conquest of the worlds outlying the Eye of Terror may be almost complete, but by the grace of the Imperial Navy, few reinforcements were able to bolster his forces toward the end of the campaign.

cut out from this:
mustered together into battlefleets numbering hundreds of vessels. Space Marine Chapters committed their own fleets to the war in space and soon the Imperial Navy stood as an unbreakable circle of iron around Abaddon's forces.

Seems one is caught and immobilized. Next step is annhilation. Encircled forces tend to give up or die......

They have an advantage in space. Abaddon has the advantage on the ground. Space is arguably more important for a confrontation. Although I doubt they will be able to shift Abaddon from the planets he controls, and there's still the looming threat of the Blackstone Fortress and Planetkiller. The Cadian Gate is contended, but Cadia itself is lost to the Imperium.

1hadhq wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
Read the Night Lord's series. Both Ruven and Abaddon himself say as much.

Ruven can't be relied upon.
Abaddon himself? Who cares for the insane first captain of the sons of horus? Was he able to outsmart the NL ?
BTW, the series has a line where the power of huron blackheart is considered equal to abbys. How about that?

That's directly from the horses mouth, that's why he betrayed the Night Lords and joined Abaddon. Because he was sick of being little more than a pirate and butcher. Because Abaddon can and has actually achieved things.

And Hurons Empire rivaling Abaddons doesn't make the blindest bit of difference. Whats Huron done with it apart from raid a few planets and stole some ships?

1hadhq wrote:The important bit youre missing is:
- Eldar chose to oppose chaos.
- Necrons chose to oppose chaos.

so its 3 vs 1. Humans and elfs and undead vs demons and mutants. Humans won't win as this endangers the grimdarkness, Elfs don't count, chaos always looses in the end, seems it goes to the undead.....all hail our metallic overlords

Yes because Humans, Eldar and Necrons form stable alliances with each other on a regular basis.

At best, Huron rivaling Abaddon was because they both are the major forces in their respective warp spaces.

Can't the CSM resupply/reinforce by using warp rifts?

You'd assume so, since they do it a lot in fluff.

Henners91 wrote:Can't the CSM resupply/reinforce by using warp rifts?

Yeah, but reinforcing Cadia isn't what they need really. They need to clear the Imperial Navy Fleet so that they can actually move their ships about and move outwards from the Sector. Qarren has them by the balls at the moment unless a major Chaos attack comes from the Eye to displace them. Which might not be for a while as the vast majority of Chaos Vessels were already involved.

Surely Typhus' fleet could be convinced to help? He has his own planet now doesn't he? Besides, if the gods decided to help, they could just spawn a load of daemons inside the Imperium's ships.

Henners91 wrote:Can't the CSM resupply/reinforce by using warp rifts?

Necron pylons pretty much forbids that. They limit the Eye of Terra dude, not some minor warp rift.

Brother Coa wrote:

Henners91 wrote:Can't the CSM resupply/reinforce by using warp rifts?

Necron pylons pretty much forbids that. They limit the Eye of Terra dude, not some minor warp rift.

Actually, Coa does have a good point there. On Cadia itself, they are pretty stuck. The other planets though, this would be a possibility. But Henners is saying, why can't they open up actual portals on Cadia I guess.

However, from the Death of a Thousand Cuts article

At the last the combined efforts of the forces of Order kept Abaddon from his ultimate goal of controlling the Cadian system but, in the process, the Cadian Gate has been ravaged. Many bastions have fallen to the forces of Chaos and may never be recovered, the warp storms surrounding the Eye have expanded to engulf whole systems.

So the pylons are possibly not working at full potential anymore maybe?

Pilau Rice wrote:
So the pylons are possibly not working at full potential anymore maybe?

Hm..... the logic may be that pylons prevent the planet or even maybe a whole solar system from warp rifts. But nowhere is said that warp storm can surround the solar system with solar system itself staying intact from any kind of Warp anomalies ( like a peace of land that lost it's connection to the mainland and thus becoming an island ).

Durza wrote:Surely Typhus' fleet could be convinced to help? He has his own planet now doesn't he? Besides, if the gods decided to help, they could just spawn a load of daemons inside the Imperium's ships.

Yeah, Ulthor in the Agripinaa system. I think it would be fairly difficult for him to get from their to Cadia maybe.

Brother Coa wrote:

Henners91 wrote:Can't the CSM resupply/reinforce by using warp rifts?

Necron pylons pretty much forbids that. They limit the Eye of Terra dude, not some minor warp rift.

Blackstone Fortresses, which "slice trough the barriers separating the warp and realspace" ( BFG, Ships of the Gothic Sector, Blackstone Fortress entry ) work over Cadia.
It is therefore likely that other warprifts can be created as well.
The pylons probably distinguish between huge warpstorms, like the eye of terror, and a "relatively" minor warprift, like the one used to create a Blackstone Fortress's beamweapon.

iproxtaco wrote:
Ruven also says Abaddon's might is greater than that of Horus. Talos agrees. Yes, Ruven is unpredictable, but citing him as unreliable because he gives evidence to back my point is silly. Abaddon is far from insane, and again, backs my point. His goals, however small, were more or less achieved during his Crusades.

Oh well, a first captain who deems himself mightier than the warmaster of the whole imperial forces and a sorceror and a former apothecary agree on it. This backs up what exactly? That marines aren't perfect and able to make mistakes?
Abby never was sane to begin with. After davin.... I mean come on youre handing your primarch to shamans and cultists?

In hindsight, its easy to claim goals were achieved..

iproxtaco wrote:
Controlling parts of the ground isn't a win, nor did I say it was. However, it puts the forces of Chaos in a position to hold out in the long term.

Beeing cut of is a position to hold out?
Each day something new learned..

iproxtaco wrote:What does that even mean? Nothing really. It's not Necrons, humans and Eldar versus Chaos. They former three aren't allies, and fought each other during the campaign.

Sorry its everyone against chaos. Chaos has no allies. DE, Orks and nids act like wildcards and the rest opposes chaos.

iproxtaco wrote:
Irrelevant. The results speak for themselves. Whatever GW's suits say is irrelevant to me. They ran this campaign, here's the end product, a Cadia that has been lost to the enemy in all but the tag they give it.

Yes, sadly replying to you seems irrelevant.
Go on blindfolded, wasn't aware you are on a trip to outperform a wellknown fanboi.
Gw ran the campaign,'its GW's decision to take or to ignore. The fanbase has no say and like the design team hinted at, never will.

iproxtaco wrote:
Good job they did there as well. Eldrad died, and the only successful destruction of a Blackstone Fortress was carried out by the Necrons, who aren't doing it to defend the Imperium, merely for their own gain. There's still another one, in the hands of Chaos. Ignoring it as a significant threat is again, silly.

Thanks, its my pleasure to point at good jobs.

Blackstones are no threat as either eldar or necrons will act if it shows up.
Thus these oh so powerful vessels are "disabled" .

The necrons already have plans with humans, and they pretty much tend to side with humans in conflicts, even to the point where humans are allowed to leave where other creatures would be killed. The gain of the necrons is no doubt nothing too positive for humanity, but still necrons are actively opposing chaos and nids. Humans are usually thrown off of necron soil, not sought and hunted like the minions of the old ones and minions of the warp.

iproxtaco wrote:
There's another one, thanks Planetstrike. Whether you dislike the idea is another irrelevant point. It exists, it's a major threat to any ships opposing Chaos.

Shouldn't it threaten planets?
See, no singular vessel is invincible. And the slow firing mode makes it even unlikely it hits moving targets.

iproxtaco wrote:They have an advantage in space.

Why didn't you agree on that several posts ago?

iproxtaco wrote:Abaddon has the advantage on the ground.

Who disputed this?

iproxtaco wrote:Space is arguably more important for a confrontation.

So were back to reason. 'word bearer dark apostle full sermon mode' been switched off now? Appreciated.

iproxtaco wrote:Although I doubt they will be able to shift Abaddon from the planets he controls

This is to be seen, unlikely before 6th ed and a new CSM dex.

iproxtaco wrote:The Cadian Gate is contended, but Cadia itself is lost to the Imperium.

Cadia isn't lost.
IDK where you get that idea from. The IoM never gives up on worlds who belong into the fold and even the tiniest foothold would be enough to mount attempts to reclaim it over and over again. Nobody withstands the waves of attrition warfare.
( surely not in the cruddace era, when IG has billions of regiments.. )

Pilau Rice wrote:
That's directly from the horses mouth, that's why he betrayed the Night Lords and joined Abaddon. Because he was sick of being little more than a pirate and butcher. Because Abaddon can and has actually achieved things.

And Hurons Empire rivaling Abaddons doesn't make the blindest bit of difference. Whats Huron done with it apart from raid a few planets and stole some ships?

IF abbadon would achieve things, no one would call him failbaddon...

Huron? The same as Abby, raided worlds and stole ships.

Both have no chance to win. They may go on a rampage but thats all they will do.

Pilau Rice wrote:Yes because Humans, Eldar and Necrons form stable alliances with each other on a regular basis.

Alliances are not neccessary. Common threats provide enough motivation to undo chaos first.
Necrons fought alongside BA. Humans and Elfs fought on many occassions on the same side. Its just one tiny step....
A small step for (he who shall not be named) and a great step forward for 40k fluff.

It does say in the Chaos codex that Abaddon has proven himself his mentor's equal. So that means he's at least as powerful now as Horus was.

1hadhq wrote:

Huron? The same as Abby, raided worlds and stole ships.

Both have no chance to win. They may go on a rampage but thats all they will do.

But he's not united the forces of Chaos 13 times, nor has he done anything on the scale of a single Black Crusade.

1hadhq wrote:Alliances are not neccessary. Common threats provide enough motivation to undo chaos first.
Necrons fought alongside BA. Humans and Elfs fought on many occassions on the same side. Its just one tiny step....
A small step for (he who shall not be named) and a great step forward for 40k fluff.

And Chaos Marines have also formed impromptu alliances with other races, maybe not the Eldar or Necrons, but certainly Dark Eldar and Space Marines.

When push comes to shove everyone is going to fight everyone. The Eldar hate the Necrons as much as the forces of Chaos as much as Tyranid.

1hadhq wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
Ruven also says Abaddon's might is greater than that of Horus. Talos agrees. Yes, Ruven is unpredictable, but citing him as unreliable because he gives evidence to back my point is silly. Abaddon is far from insane, and again, backs my point. His goals, however small, were more or less achieved during his Crusades.

Oh well, a first captain who deems himself mightier than the warmaster of the whole imperial forces and a sorceror and a former apothecary agree on it. This backs up what exactly? That marines aren't perfect and able to make mistakes?
Abby never was sane to begin with. After davin.... I mean come on youre handing your primarch to shamans and cultists?

In hindsight, its easy to claim goals were achieved..

A First Captain's adviser and sorcerer deems Abaddon's might is greater than that of the Warmaster, and an Apothecary who hates almost everyone outside of his small warband begrudgingly agrees with someone he despises more than almost any other. It's evidence to suggest that Abaddon's forces COULD be greater than that controlled by Horus. Since there's little to no other information about Abaddon outside of the Chaos Codex and Eye of Terror book, it remains to be seen. However, since this book was written and released in 2010/2011, it points to the wider picture.

iproxtaco wrote:
Controlling parts of the ground isn't a win, nor did I say it was. However, it puts the forces of Chaos in a position to hold out in the long term.

Beeing cut of is a position to hold out?
Each day something new learned..

Being cut off on a planet with extensive ready made fortifications and anti-orbital/areal defenses, with plenty of forces on the ground puts them in a position to hold out for the long time. It prevents them from advancing.

iproxtaco wrote:What does that even mean? Nothing really. It's not Necrons, humans and Eldar versus Chaos. They former three aren't allies, and fought each other during the campaign.

Sorry its everyone against chaos. Chaos has no allies. DE, Orks and nids act like wildcards and the rest opposes chaos.

It's everyone against everyone. To believe otherwise is wrong. If you actually want to continue this line, then think about the fact that it's also everyone against the Imperium, by the same reasoning.

iproxtaco wrote:
Irrelevant. The results speak for themselves. Whatever GW's suits say is irrelevant to me. They ran this campaign, here's the end product, a Cadia that has been lost to the enemy in all but the tag they give it.

Yes, sadly replying to you seems irrelevant.
Go on blindfolded, wasn't aware you are on a trip to outperform a wellknown fanboi.
Gw ran the campaign,'its GW's decision to take or to ignore. The fanbase has no say and like the design team hinted at, never will.

It's the results of the campaign. Deal with it.

iproxtaco wrote:
Good job they did there as well. Eldrad died, and the only successful destruction of a Blackstone Fortress was carried out by the Necrons, who aren't doing it to defend the Imperium, merely for their own gain. There's still another one, in the hands of Chaos. Ignoring it as a significant threat is again, silly.

Thanks, its my pleasure to point at good jobs.

Blackstones are no threat as either eldar or necrons will act if it shows up.
Thus these oh so powerful vessels are "disabled" .

Good one. A Blackstone Fortress is suddenly not a threat because some unpredictable alien races COULD attempt to take it out? Brilliant.

The necrons already have plans with humans, and they pretty much tend to side with humans in conflicts, even to the point where humans are allowed to leave where other creatures would be killed. The gain of the necrons is no doubt nothing too positive for humanity, but still necrons are actively opposing chaos and nids. Humans are usually thrown off of necron soil, not sought and hunted like the minions of the old ones and minions of the warp.

Well this is plainly wrong. You might be able to find one example of humans being thrown off of a Tomb World, as I've never heard of it, but the majority of encounters have humans being slaughtered to the last.

iproxtaco wrote:
There's another one, thanks Planetstrike. Whether you dislike the idea is another irrelevant point. It exists, it's a major threat to any ships opposing Chaos.

Shouldn't it threaten planets?
See, no singular vessel is invincible. And the slow firing mode makes it even unlikely it hits moving targets.

Correct, no singular vessel is invincible. This vessel isn't, as one has already been destroyed, but denying it's power is ridiculous. Like any large Cruiser sized vessel it needs support from smaller and faster ships. It was destroyed when the support fleet withdrew. A fully operation Planet Killer is a formidable weapon.

iproxtaco wrote:They have an advantage in space.

Why didn't you agree on that several posts ago?

Disputing the evidence. Until you quoted that small paragraph it was knowledge I had no idea of.

iproxtaco wrote:Abaddon has the advantage on the ground.

Who disputed this?

I'm not arguing the point, simply stating it.

iproxtaco wrote:Space is arguably more important for a confrontation.

So were back to reason. 'word bearer dark apostle full sermon mode' been switched off now? Appreciated.

I'm always in preacher mode.

iproxtaco wrote:Although I doubt they will be able to shift Abaddon from the planets he controls

This is to be seen, unlikely before 6th ed and a new CSM dex.

I still doubt it.

iproxtaco wrote:The Cadian Gate is contended, but Cadia itself is lost to the Imperium.

Cadia isn't lost.
IDK where you get that idea from. The IoM never gives up on worlds who belong into the fold and even the tiniest foothold would be enough to mount attempts to reclaim it over and over again. Nobody withstands the waves of attrition warfare.
( surely not in the cruddace era, when IG has billions of regiments.. )

It's lost from what I can see. Since Abaddon has what could be a majority of his forces on the surface in a position to defend for the long term, it seems very unlikely that the Imperium is going to be able to gather enough forces to forcibly shift his forces.

Chaos troll is a Chaos troll - even in defeat does he see victory...

Pilau Rice wrote:

And Chaos Marines have also formed impromptu alliances with other races, maybe not the Eldar or Necrons, but certainly Dark Eldar and Space Marines.

When push comes to shove everyone is going to fight everyone.

Wouldn't dispute the basic "royal rumble" setting of 40k.

But Alliances of marines and spiky marines? Are you sure?

iproxtaco wrote:
It's evidence to suggest that Abaddon's forces COULD be greater than that controlled by Horus. Since there's little to no other information about Abaddon outside of the Chaos Codex and Eye of Terror book, it remains to be seen. However, since this book was written and released in 2010/2011, it points to the wider picture.

Evidence? a BL series? Don't let the canon/not-canon group of dakka hear this....

The wider picture is a picture to come, as Abby is stuck in a 4th ed dex... and has almost no fluff in 5th ed , be it codices, expansions.
Horus controlled ~50% of the space marines and imperial army detachments and ad mech detachments. The non astartes are estimated at a nearly similar split, so maybe also 50%. Plus all the loyalists he was able to sent off who couldn't contribute to the fight would count in favor of Horus strength. How should Abby compete with this?

iproxtaco wrote: If you actually want to continue this line, then think about the fact that it's also everyone against the Imperium, by the same reasoning.

Not exactly.
The former minions of the old ones are stated in codex necrons as enemys.
Humans are stated as part of the C'tans plans.
So in a fluffy reasoning, orks and eldars are polar opposites of the necrons and thus a primary objective in a 'killing list' if the crons have such.
The great plan of the C'tan includes cutting of the warp, thus chaos is planned to be contained, not spread. So chaos is also most likely on a near top position in this list.

Eldar know chaos and know they have to oppose it. So anyone vs chaos has the Eldar more often than not supporting him.
The Eldar try to fight the rising necrons, since they know them and the younger races don't. But this won't lead to eldar in the chaos team against the crons. The elfs would rather keep out until they are able to beat the survivor.
So chaos is bereft of possible team-mates in this case.

iproxtaco wrote:
It's the results of the campaign. Deal with it.

I have no issue with the publisher...as I accept what GW wrote, said and intended.
But i'll keep on disputing your dreaded interpretation of it. The way you present it, does not give me the impression you've read the material.

iproxtaco wrote:
Good one. A Blackstone Fortress is suddenly not a threat because some unpredictable alien races COULD attempt to take it out? Brilliant.

Thanks again. I was sure you deem this brilliant.

The alien races are interested enough in the fate of the blackstones to interfere guaranteed.
Because the blackstones aren't just fortresses.....

iproxtaco wrote:
Well this is plainly wrong. You might be able to find one example of humans being thrown off of a Tomb World, as I've never heard of it, but the majority of encounters have humans being slaughtered to the last.

No it isn't wrong.
The majority of encounters you are thinking of are those where the humans talking with guns, not words.
Necron fluff is rare, but still lately they start talking so maybe it was just the automated defense not being able or entitled to talk to 'intruders'. i am not saying there is no risk we lose the fluff and have it replaced with something less believable, but actually necrons fight humans when they enter necron property, like everyone else would. They don't actively seek out humans, but nids for example.

Necrons joined forces with BA for example. To kill nids. Necrons 'sided' with Tau against nids for a short period and killed the Tau afterwards.
Humans are less targeted as they are part of their plans. Competition like nids or opposition like chaos, elfs and orks is annihilated ASAP.
Tau are just to annoying...so attacked too. Its pretty much explained in codex necrons. ( except Tau as they didn't exist ).

iproxtaco wrote:
I'm always in preacher mode.

no OFF-switch ?

Maybe I shall discontinue to reply.
with words. that is. * grabs boltgun *

iproxtaco wrote:
It's lost from what I can see.

Youre not looking hard enough!
Whatever will influence the amount of troops sent to Cadia hinges on the design of 6th ed.
5th had Cadia pretty able to contribute to the IG if you browse the IG dex...

I heard there was an overabundance of Mindless Optimism in this thread.

KilroyKiljoy wrote:I heard there was an overabundance of Mindless Optimism in this thread.

You don't even have the idea....

Brother Coa wrote:

KilroyKiljoy wrote:I heard there was an overabundance of Mindless Optimism in this thread.

You don't even have the idea....

Mindless Optimism. Of course he has the idea.

LoneLictor wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

KilroyKiljoy wrote:I heard there was an overabundance of Mindless Optimism in this thread.

You don't even have the idea....

Mindless Optimism. Of course he has the idea.

I mean't about the amount of Mindless Optimism in this thread.

Brother Coa wrote:

LoneLictor wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

KilroyKiljoy wrote:I heard there was an overabundance of Mindless Optimism in this thread.

You don't even have the idea....

Mindless Optimism. Of course he has the idea.

I mean't about the amount of Mindless Optimism in this thread.

Once again, you're being mindless optimistic. I knew what I was talking about and you're assuming that I was talking about something I wasn't; Mindless Optimism at its most Mindlessly Optimistic.

Cadia is gone? Then why do I see so many Cadian armies? Oh wait... that's right. Cadia isn't gone. It did exactly what it's supposed to. Be a gate against Chaos. Sure they didn't repel the Black Crusade but, they did stop it in its tracks. And no where (that I've seen) has there been any resolution to the battles raging there. It's like saying that Armageddon is destroyed because the end result was 50/50.

Brother Coa wrote:Chaos troll is a Chaos troll - even in defeat does he see victory...

The irony of that statement is amazing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DeffDred wrote:Cadia is gone? Then why do I see so many Cadian armies? Oh wait... that's right. Cadia isn't gone. It did exactly what it's supposed to. Be a gate against Chaos. Sure they didn't repel the Black Crusade but, they did stop it in its tracks. And no where (that I've seen) has there been any resolution to the battles raging there. It's like saying that Armageddon is destroyed because the end result was 50/50.

They stopped the Crusade, but there's no resolution? Contradict yourself much? It's not so much that Chaos has taken Cadia, it's simply that I see no way in which the Imperium is going to be able to control the planet fully again. And before you jump in and say "oh but you said earlier..."; opinions can change.

*switch boltgun to full burst mode*
*safety off*
I'd suggest to rethink your assumptions, iproxtaco. Opinions may change, but yours should.

GW must not provide a resolution... they are more often than not happy with an unresolved battle.
So Deff dreads point is fine.

PS: I 'd consider that we don't need pages of 'troll' vs 'troll' here.
PPS: in dire need, the triangle of 'friendship' may help...

1hadhq wrote:*switch boltgun to full burst mode*
*safety off*
I'd suggest to rethink your assumptions, iproxtaco. Opinions may change, but yours should.

GW must not provide a resolution... they are more often than not happy with an unresolved battle.
So Deff dreads point is fine.

Saying the Crusade has been stopped, but there's no resolution is a stupid contradiction. It's very much on-going. Since this is the background forum, I'm going by the fluff, and right now Cadia is heavily contested, but I don't see how the Imperium in it's current state can control it again.

PS: I 'd consider that we don't need pages of 'troll' vs 'troll' here.
PPS: in dire need, the triangle of 'friendship' may help...

I wasn't accusing Coa of being a Troll. The second part of his statement was hugely ironic given the context.

iproxtaco wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Chaos troll is a Chaos troll - even in defeat does he see victory...

The irony of that statement is amazing.
"oh but you said earlier..."; opinions can change.

Quite indeed....

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Chaos troll is a Chaos troll - even in defeat does he see victory...

The irony of that statement is amazing.
"oh but you said earlier..."; opinions can change.

Quite indeed....

That would be valid if there were some sort of contradiction in what I say, or if I refused to acknowledge that my stance isn't quite the same as before. Unfortunately, you fail, but at least you're mindlessly optimistic, so that should keep you going.

iproxtaco wrote:
It's very much on-going. Since this is the background forum, I'm going by the fluff, and right now Cadia is heavily contested, but I don't see how the Imperium in it's current state can control it again.

Contested is something different than lost. would you've gone with contested, who would not agree?
Codex IG (5th ed) has the 13th crusade as late in the M41's ( 999 ? ) and Creed isn't stated as defeated or the planet as lost.
Specifically page 26/27 shows the active warzones and Cadia is one. Active warzone, so its not resolved yet and shouldn't be called lost but contested. Contested worlds may go to either side until GW moves the story. ( except the fact of cadians as one of only 2 lines of plastic guard make it unlikely to hand it to chaos. )
The usual response of the IoM to contested sytems/worlds is to send reinforcements. There is no hint they cannot provide these.
Page 26/27 states reinforements redirected to cadia. Cadia is important enough to have primary access to any available force.
Since GW designers have no idea of scale and 'IG has millions of regiments, any half assed piece of fluff can and will push the scales of power in GW's intended or most favored direction.
So you may not see it, but it is a good bet Cadia will not be lost.
GW may use this stripping of forces from elsewhere to allow other threats ( xenos maybe ) to have their piece of the imperial cake.

Like I said, and don't get me wrong I don't necessarily think you're wrong, is that the Imperium in it's current form is incapable of gaining full control of Cadia, and the Cadian Gate.

It's pressed for forces as it is, the constant attacks of all the myriad foes in the galaxy is beginning to take it's toll. Between Orkz, Tyranids, Necrons and Chaos, ther's nothing to suggest that they have copious amounts of guardsmen to make it seem like they can easily hold down the fort.

Crudance may have said in his Codex that there are billions of regiments, but one throw-away line does not make it so. One of the main theme of 40k, and I'm certain I don't have to tell you, is that the Imperium is decaying, it's losing this war, planet at a time.

Abaddon and the forces of Chaos present the most immediate threat to the Imperium, above the Orkz or Tyranids. It's the reason the Cadian Gate was built in the first place.

Now, since the overreaching theme is that the Imperium is hard pressed to defend itself, and that there are not enough men to hold the breach, and that Abaddon's Crusades always make the Imperium divert huge amounts of forces to stop them making other areas more vulnerable, and the fact that the forces of Chaos control most of Cadia's surface (which includes fortresses, anti-ship defences etc), with the horde possibly being the majority of Abaddon's Crusade, I see no way in which the Imperium can launch a successful campaign in it's already weakened state.

Cadia may well be contested, that doesn't mean one side necessarily has the ability to gain control. The few forces left on the planet are obviously fighting back, but they don't realistically have the chance to win, from what I can see.

The "throw away" line as you call it, wasn't disproven as wrong with valid sources as GW dropped the concept of believable organizational structures and so a different thread ( about IG structure ) had dakkanauts like me left not so happy with the performance of GW-writing.

But, the theme of the guard is also nigh unlimited numbers.
Its nothing new, just badly done with examples like chenkov who sqeezes nids flat under marching columns of IG.
If you can trample nids, why would you have trouble to provide enough troops to reclaim anything ?

Rare tank designs were untied of restrictions ( Executioner, vanquisher ) and you may field as many as you like nowadays.
Baneblades were rare too. Then a plastic kit was on the shelf and the Baneblade available in companies of 3+ vehicles, without any reminder of former restricted availability.
GW dropped the theme of decay whenever it hampered sales.

The overall theme surely is an imperium hard pressed on all sides. But its still the main actor of the 40k-"movie" as I may call it.
Abby is at best the arch-villain. His fate as another eternal 'i will return for bloody vengeance' character is pretty much set.

Sooner or later the main theathres of war move on and Cadia is freed by CREED. Tried to keep him out, but thinking of it, how may a
old grumpy fart with bad hairstyle stand a chance against a man like CREED. ?

Honestly I think the Cadian Sector is doomed to decades of meat grinder-esque conflict, the situation on Cadia right now is basically a stalemate. However, time is on the Imperium's side as they have far more resources at their disposal then Abaddon's forces, and that's even with the fact that the Imperium is slowly decaying.

Even if the entire Eastern Fringe is lost, even if all of Segmentum Tempestus is lost, the Imperium won't give up the Cadian Gate and will continue to flood reinforcements into it. It's too important, too symbolic, too reminiscent of the horrors of the Horus Heresy, and too close to Terra. Abaddon can never take it and will just continue to bleed both sides in decades of vicious struggle. But I guess this works for a true child of Chaos.

1hadhq wrote:
The overall theme surely is an imperium hard pressed on all sides. But its still the main actor of the 40k-"movie" as I may call it.
Abby is at best the arch-villain. His fate as another eternal 'i will return for bloody vengeance' character is pretty much set.

Sooner or later the main theathres of war move on and Cadia is freed by CREED. Tried to keep him out, but thinking of it, how may a
old grumpy fart with bad hairstyle stand a chance against a man like CREED. ?

I do not think that the 13. Black Crusade even needs a resolution. The war could go on for centuries and, on a larger scale, relatively little would change.
In fact i would think that a longterm war of that size would be actually good for the setting. Minor xenos armies would get something to do, Abaddon stays scarry and
the 5 minutes to midnight scenario can be milked without any need to design yet another black crusade.

Will that make Cadian Guard vs Black Legion the next beginner's set? Please say yes...

Now here is someone who can beat Abaddon with ease:

Is that Alpharius?

And he doesn't seem to have done a very good job of it so far.

Durza wrote:Is that Alpharius?

And he doesn't seem to have done a very good job of it so far.

Keep dreaming Chaos fanboy...

He totally ruin Abaddon's plan of conquering Cadia, and he destroyed entire Eldar invasion force with MINIMAL losses.

Brother Coa wrote:

Durza wrote:Is that Alpharius?

And he doesn't seem to have done a very good job of it so far.

Keep dreaming Chaos fanboy...

He totally ruin Abaddon's plan of conquering Cadia, and he destroyed entire Eldar invasion force with MINIMAL losses.

I can dream... and my dreams will tear down the facade that is your Imperium.

What exactly is MINIMAL for the Imperial Guard? And Abaddon's plan was to destroy the Imperial ownership of Cadia. Since Cadia is still contested, he succeeded.