How do the Psychic pups work again? I am under the impression that the SW were anti-psy, and I know they have their Rune Priests, but how do they work if not with the Warp?

CpatTom wrote: I am under the impression that the SW were anti-psy

Not quite, they're anti-going too far with psychics. They define a clear limit and do not exceed that.

CpatTom wrote: and I know they have their Rune Priests, but how do they work if not with the Warp?

They are psykers; they work exactly the same.

The SW were anti-Thousand Sons and perfectly at ease with their own psyker traditions. I don't know that they were necessarily anti-psyker. But Russ certainly sensed, even if he didn't fully understand at first, the threat of Magnus's arrogance regarding sorcery. Like any apex predator, Russ knew to trust his instincts and pushed for an end to any legitimate role of psykers in the Legions. Whether or not he understood his runepriests to be Librarians in the sense of the Council of Nikaea ... who really knows?

From our IRL perspective, this seems like hypocritical snobbery at best or treacherous prejudice at worst. But the Space Wolves had a good reason to trust themselves: seemingly, they were made by the Emperor to take out other Legions in the event of rebellion.

K, didn't know if there was some sort of Wolf Warp the pups drew there power from. Which sounds ridiculous, but ya know, SW.

I have a related question I've been meaning to ask

The Black Templars don't use Librarians, if I'm correct. So what happens if a BT Initiate suddenly displays Psychic Potential while in training? Is he washed out? Sent to another Fists chapter?

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:I have a related question I've been meaning to ask

The Black Templars don't use Librarians, if I'm correct. So what happens if a BT Initiate suddenly displays Psychic Potential while in training? Is he washed out? Sent to another Fists chapter?

ATTEMPTED THREAD HI-JACK!!! LAUNCH EXTERMINATUS!!!

but the SW have super special snow flake powers apparently, but in reality (40k reality), they just get their doombolts from the same place....

bombboy1252 wrote:

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:I have a related question I've been meaning to ask

The Black Templars don't use Librarians, if I'm correct. So what happens if a BT Initiate suddenly displays Psychic Potential while in training? Is he washed out? Sent to another Fists chapter?

ATTEMPTED THREAD HI-JACK!!! LAUNCH EXTERMINATUS!!!

but the SW have super special snow flake powers apparently, but in reality (40k reality), they just get their doombolts from the same place....

That was some impressive thread hijack response systems. I wonder if i can get it for my car.

Russ and the Space Wolves are deluded enough to believe that their Rune Priests don't, in fact, use the Warp. That they use the "natural life and death cycles of Fenris." This is bull of course, they use the Warp like any other psyker.

It's delusion and hypocrisy. Nothing more.

Stupid dogs.

@V__D: Source?

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:The Black Templars don't use Librarians, if I'm correct. So what happens if a BT Initiate suddenly displays Psychic Potential while in training? Is he washed out? Sent to another Fists chapter?

It's not covered explicitly in the dex or, to my limited knowledge, in the BL novels (I haven't read Aaron Dembski-Bowden's Helsreach, for example) but it could very well be that BT simply do not train recruits with psychic potential -- excepting of course training them to suppress it, which is likely a key part of their entire pseudo-religious doctrine.

Manchu wrote:@V__D: Source?

A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns. They believe that their powers come from natural cycle of Fenris, Ahriman proves this wrong, as does Magnus. It's hypocrisy born of ignorance.

IIRC the best fluff i have seen surrounding the Council of Nikea and related events is that the Council banned sorcery which is what the SW opposed.
Though i haven't seen that in a long time... was way better though.

Going by the old fluff for the Black Ships and Scholastica Psykana, the psychic initiates who will become librarians are gathered from those psykers of the correct age and potential among the Black Ships' cargo, who are then distributed among the chapters of the Astartes. This would makes sense, since the incidence of psychic powers (supposedly one in a million) would otherwise be much too low to supply a chapter (particularly given that the seemingly most common recruiting worlds are sparsely-populated feral worlds). So presumably the Black Templars just don't request any psychic candidates, and dispatch any latent psychics they do find to the Inquisition.

iproxtaco wrote:They believe that their powers come from natural cycle of Fenris ...

Wait, let's put this into context. IIRC this comes from Russ defining the difference between RunePriests (psykers) and Sorcerers. The problem is that Magnus's Legion weren't just psykers -- they were nascent Chaos Sorcerers. Yes, the ultimate source of all psychic power is the interaction of the Warp with real space. But psyker-potential, so far as we know, is a naturally-occurring mutation among human beings whereas the Thousand Sons' abilities are more "proactive" (esoteric) in their origin and development. It's kind of lame to say that Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns show that the Wolves' and the Thousand Sons' psykers are the same when clearly those books include characters from both camps that use their powers in totally different ways. In any case, OP's question was whether the SW are anti-psyker and the answer is obviously no.

Manchu wrote:In any case, OP's question was whether the SW are anti-psyker and the answer is obviously no.

No, it isn't.

A Thousand Sons makes the case that Wyrdmake or whatever his name was genuinely believed he didn't draw his powers from the Warp.

iproxtaco wrote:
A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns. They believe that their powers come from natural cycle of Fenris, Ahriman proves this wrong, as does Magnus. It's hypocrisy born of ignorance.

It is not hypocrisy. The Thousand Sons powers come from daemons, it always has. That's what the Wolves found upsetting.

Seaward wrote:A Thousand Sons makes the case that Wyrdmake or whatever his name was genuinely believed he didn't draw his powers from the Warp.

I didn't get that from reading Thousand Sons at all. Rather:

DarknessEternal wrote:The Thousand Sons powers come from daemons, it always has. That's what the Wolves found upsetting.

DarknessEternal has it right: the issue isn't psychic ability itself but rather how you use it. I don't know why this issue is so difficult. It is obvious that some kinds of psychic power involves collusion with the Warp Gods (Chaos worship/sorcery) and some does not (what Space Marine Librarians do, first among them the Grey Knights). The Wolves are against the former and superstitious about the latter, naturally preferring their own traditions and understanding over that of other Space Marines.

Manchu wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:They believe that their powers come from natural cycle of Fenris ...

Wait, let's put this into context. IIRC this comes from Russ defining the difference between RunePriests (psykers) and Sorcerers. The problem is that Magnus's Legion weren't just psykers -- they were nascent Chaos Sorcerers.

Except AFAIK, there's never been any clear definition of what the difference is between a plain psyker and a sorcerer. Outside of the obvious (using the entrails of a thousand orphans to summon a bloodthirster, or whatever) it's really more of a 'I'll know it when I see it' sort of thing. It's like the difference between scientist and mad scientist. On the one hand you have Edison, on the other you have Frankenstein, but where on that continuum would you put Tesla?

And calling all the 1k Sons nascent Chaos Sorcerers doesn't work. That's basically saying that there was something fundimentally different about them that would lead them to be damned regardless of what they or Magnus did. It also implies that there isn't just a difference between psyker powers and sorcery, but that there is a difference between the actual psyker and sorcerer (not just their powers, or how they get them). Would you go so far as to say that there was something fundimentally different about every Librarian (by whatever name they're called) that ever fell to Chaos?

there's never been any clear definition of what the difference is between a plain psyker and a sorcerer

Of course there is a difference. Psykers are mutants trained to deal with the powers they naturally manifest. Chaos sorcerers may have natural talent resulting from mutation but derive further power from dealing with the Ruinous Powers, a la Magnus. It's an incredibly clear and fundamental distinction -- ask a Grey Knight.

Manchu wrote:

Seaward wrote:A Thousand Sons makes the case that Wyrdmake or whatever his name was genuinely believed he didn't draw his powers from the Warp.

I didn't get that from reading Thousand Sons at all

Read the part where Ahriman meets Wyrdmake on Prospero at the end of the book, Wyrdmakes speech during Nikea, and Russ's conversations with Magnus before or after they fight on that planet with the Word Bearers.

DarknessEternal wrote:The Thousand Sons powers come from daemons, it always has. That's what the Wolves found upsetting.

DarknessEternal has it right: the issue isn't psychic ability itself but rather how you use it. I don't know why this issue is so difficult. It is obvious that some kinds of psychic power involves collusion with the Warp Gods (Chaos worship/sorcery) and some does not (what Space Marine Librarians do, first among them the Grey Knights). The Wolves are against the former and superstitious about the latter, naturally preferring their own traditions and understanding over that of other Space Marines.

The Space Wolves had no idea the Thousand Sons were using familiars, although their Tutularies weren't the source of their power, most were natural born psykers with a horrid gene seed flaw, it was their Primarch that lead them down the road of sorcery. All the Sons were arrogant, Magnus himself believed he was the master of the Warp, that Tzeentch was but an entity he did not need to fear. It's plainly obvious that the Sons went too far in their quest for power, but the Space Wolves had no real idea of how far they had gone. They saw their use of sorcery on that random planet, and immediately thought it was wrong, and due to their ignorance spoke out against all use of psychic powers, hence why there were no more Librarians after Nikea, in any Legion.

iproxtaco wrote:Read the part where Ahriman meets Wyrdmake on Prospero at the end of the book, Wyrdmakes speech during Nikea, and Russ's conversations with Magnus before or after they fight on that planet with the Word Bearers.

Wait, I know the parts. I disagree with the interpretation.

All the Sons were arrogant, Magnus himself believed he was the master of the Warp, that Tzeentch was but an entity he did not need to fear. It's plainly obvious that the Sons went too far in their quest for power, but the Space Wolves had no real idea of how far they had gone.

We are in total agreement on this point. I could not have put it better myself.

They saw their use of sorcery on that random planet, and immediately thought it was wrong, and due to their ignorance spoke out against all use of psychic powers, hence why there were no more Librarians after Nikea, in any Legion.

We don't yet know the full story, for example regarding the Wolves using psychic powers (even defenses) on Prospero. My own take on the issue is that Russ trusted his instincts and he was right to do it. It's a great irony: Magnus was obsessed with precognition and yet considered Russ to be a barbarian. Magnus's visions of the future were detailed and accurate but ultimately he failed to understand what they truly betokened and they caused his downfall. Russ's instincts, by contrast, were vague and based on superstitions -- and yet he was right, even if (as you pointed out) he could not know for sure in an objective sense. Russ's wisdom is NATURAL intuition whereas Magnus relied on his prideful "mastery" of sorcery-science.


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Also, it's a bit silly for anyone to say the SW were simply stupid regarding this kind of thing. After all, at this time almost no one really knew about daemons. Only the Emperor knew about and to some shadowy extent Magnus guessed about and underestimated the Ruinous Powers and their minions. Again, if anything, the SW should be commended for being wise enough to sense the difference between what their rune priests were doing and what sorcerers like the Thousand Sons were up to.

On the anti psycher front, I might mention that on the table top SW have more anti-psycher ability than most other armies.

They can get 4 rune priests, that gives you 4 runic weapons for much larger anti-psychic bubble, they also can have runic armor and wolf tail talismans that gives a 5+ save vs psychic attacks. So in that regard they are quite anti-psycher.

Also you many believe that magic doesn't exist. You may even have concrete evidence that magic does not exist. But you will never convince a New Orleans Houngan that his Voodoo is fake or the Aborigines of Australia that their Shamanistic beliefs dont run true. That is not Hippocracy on their part, that is faith. If the Wolves truly believe that their power does not come from the warp then no matter what evidence you present, in their mind and their beliefs it still doesn't come from the warp.

Manchu wrote:

there's never been any clear definition of what the difference is between a plain psyker and a sorcerer

Of course there is a difference. Psykers are mutants trained to deal with the powers they naturally manifest. Chaos sorcerers may have natural talent resulting from mutation but derive further power from dealing with the Ruinous Powers, a la Magnus. It's an incredibly clear and fundamental distinction -- ask a Grey Knight.

Except during time period of the Thousand Sons novel, there's no indication that Magnus has done any deal to increase his power. The only deal with the devil he entered into was to stabilize the geneseed of the legion. And while doing a deal with one of the four would be a pretty clear act of sorcery, I don't think there's any place in the fluff that has that as the act that takes you over the line. Magnus' use of thralls to feed the ritual when he attempts to talk Horus off the cliff would seem to be a pretty obvious use of sorcery, but there's nothing involving warp entities there. And on the other hand, Magnus' attempt to contact Terra, while relying on the 'assistance' of a warp entity, did not involve anything that would seem like sorcery, just Magnus' raw power.

Oy, don't bring the Grey Knights into this. With the current codex, the Grey Knights are about as heretical as you can get, it's just they're heretical FOR THE EMPEROR, so I guess it's OK. Blood rituals, daemon weapons, they even have daemonhosts as a usable unit. Yeah, per-fluff they're able to get away with it, but there is nothing that Magnus and the Sons did prior to being nuked by the Wolves that isn't in the current GK toolbox.

SW don't work like orks, however. Just believing something doesn't make it true for the Pups. The issue is not so much whether SW are anti-Warp or anti-psyker. They employ Warp-faring vessels, navigators, and astropaths like everybody else, for example. The issue is that they intuited something wrong with what Magnus and his Legion were doing regarding the Warp. Their word for it, soon enough to be the word that the Thousand Sons would themselves proudly use -- was sorcery. Yeah, the Space Wolves were barbaric and superstitious -- believing in magic and daemons and all that garbage. But in 40k, the worst part of your superstitious beliefs turn out to be true.


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Except during time period of the Thousand Sons novel, there's no indication that Magnus has done any deal to increase his power.

Actually, yes there is. His Legion was on the brink of destruction and it is heavily implied that he made a deal with Tzeentch to stabilize their mutations and save the Legion.

And while doing a deal with one of the four would be a pretty clear act of sorcery, I don't think there's any place in the fluff that has that as the act that takes you over the line.

What?


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With the current codex, the Grey Knights are about as heretical as you can get, it's just they're heretical FOR THE EMPEROR, so I guess it's OK.

There is a difference between what is actually in the GK codex and the way that people on the internet committed to hating Mat Ward have read it.


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but there is nothing that Magnus and the Sons did prior to being nuked by the Wolves that isn't in the current GK toolbox.

You are 100% incorrect. I don't see GK using daemonic tutelaries, for example. Just because two guys can both shoot lightning out of their fingers doesn't mean they're both Chaos-worshiping sorcerers.

It's not heavily implied. He actually did make deal with Tzeentch, although he had no idea it was a Chaos God. This entity would save his sons in exchange for one of Magnus's eyes. Like we agreed, Magnus was arrogant beyond belief, he thought he was the master of the pact. He gave up his eye, but had no idea he had basically damned him and his Legion.

In this case, we can presume guilt. If you are too arrogant to understand that what you're doing is wrong, it does not make you less culpable for your wrong-doing. Like I said, all the more praise to Leman Russ for figuring out what was going on without having even close to all the pieces.

Manchu wrote:SW don't work like orks, however. Just believing something doesn't make it true for the Pups. The issue is not so much whether SW are anti-Warp or anti-psyker. They employ Warp-faring vessels, navigators, and astropaths like everybody else, for example. The issue is that they intuited something wrong with what Magnus and his Legion were doing regarding the Warp. Their word for it, soon enough to be the word that the Thousand Sons would themselves proudly use -- was sorcery. Yeah, the Space Wolves were barbaric and superstitious -- believing in magic and daemons and all that garbage. But in 40k, the worst part of your superstitious beliefs turn out to be true.

Which I think is a very good point, but it still doesn't explain away the fact that the Space Wolves did not think they used the Warp as the source of their power. They were very much correct when they sensed something was wrong with the Thousand Sons, but even Russ himself says his Rune Priests are fueled by the natural cycle of Fenris.

And while doing a deal with one of the four would be a pretty clear act of sorcery, I don't think there's any place in the fluff that has that as the act that takes you over the line.

What?

I agree, what? Dealing with the Dark Gods, whatever your intentions were, is long down the path to damnation. You know how the saying goes, it applies perfectly in this situation.

With the current codex, the Grey Knights are about as heretical as you can get, it's just they're heretical FOR THE EMPEROR, so I guess it's OK.

There is a difference between what is actually in the GK codex and the way that people on the internet committed to hating Mat Ward have read it.

Again, agreed, what the Grey Knights do is effectively the opposite of what Sorcerers do. You may say the age-old saying applies again, but Grey Knights are proof against these temptations.

but there is nothing that Magnus and the Sons did prior to being nuked by the Wolves that isn't in the current GK toolbox.

You are 100% incorrect. I don't see GK using daemonic tutelaries, for example. Just because two guys can both shoot lightning out of their fingers doesn't mean they're both Chaos-worshiping sorcerers.

Once more, agreed.

... it still doesn't explain away the fact that the Space Wolves did not think they used the Warp as the source of their power.

I'm not saying that SW weren't ignorant by objective standards but they also weren't stupid. Some people explain things with formulae and other people use rituals. The SW are in the weird position of using advanced technology from the perspective of rustic shamans. Oddly enough, this is eventually how the entire Imperium would come to be. In any case, their explanations may not be mathematical but they do seem effective -- which is good enough for a SW. If the point was that anything to do with the Warp was evil beyond redemptive use then the SW would be stuck on Fenris. I understood Wyrdmake's and Russ's point to be "what we do is NOT what Magnus and the Thousand Sons do" and not a technical debate on the nature and existence of psychic powers, which is "beyond" them, i.e., they don't look at things that way.

Dealing with the Dark Gods, whatever your intentions were, is long down the path to damnation.

Yep -- which is what makes the Emperor such a disturbing figure and that, in turn, makes Magnus all the more arrogant/tragic.

Manchu wrote:SW don't work like orks, however. Just believing something doesn't make it true for the Pups. The issue is not so much whether SW are anti-Warp or anti-psyker. They employ Warp-faring vessels, navigators, and astropaths like everybody else, for example. The issue is that they intuited something wrong with what Magnus and his Legion were doing regarding the Warp. Their word for it, soon enough to be the word that the Thousand Sons would themselves proudly use -- was sorcery. Yeah, the Space Wolves were barbaric and superstitious -- believing in magic and daemons and all that garbage. But in 40k, the worst part of your superstitious beliefs turn out to be true.


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Except during time period of the Thousand Sons novel, there's no indication that Magnus has done any deal to increase his power.

Actually, yes there is. His Legion was on the brink of destruction and it is heavily implied that he made a deal with Tzeentch to stabilize their mutations and save the Legion.

And while doing a deal with one of the four would be a pretty clear act of sorcery, I don't think there's any place in the fluff that has that as the act that takes you over the line.

What?

Exactly that. There is nothing that says that All Sorcerers Do X. Certain things are obviously sorcery, and daemonic pacts would be one of them, but there's nothing that says that All Sorcerers Do Daemonic Pacts. Plus, Magnus' deal was to stabilize his legion, not to increase his power. Which would mean that under your definition of sorcery (that you're using daemons to increase your power) he wasn't using sorcery.

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With the current codex, the Grey Knights are about as heretical as you can get, it's just they're heretical FOR THE EMPEROR, so I guess it's OK.

There is a difference between what is actually in the GK codex and the way that people on the internet committed to hating Mat Ward have read it.


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but there is nothing that Magnus and the Sons did prior to being nuked by the Wolves that isn't in the current GK toolbox.

You are 100% incorrect. I don't see GK using daemonic tutelaries, for example. Just because two guys can both shoot lightning out of their fingers doesn't mean they're both Chaos-worshiping sorcerers.

Good point, the Sons have tutelaries, the GKs have living human beings that have been posessed by daemons, It's a unit. With rules and everything. And daemon weapons. And the one chapter master dude who is followed around by the warp ghosts of his team. And then there's the fluff where they killed a bunch of SoB to use their blood in a protection ritual. Seriously, the new GK stuff would have the Ordo Mallus all over them, if they weren't already working for the Ordo of course. That's fine, they're doing that whole 'using Chaos against Chaos' bit. It's a cool schtick, though it'd work a bit better as a story if there were actually some small chance of a Grey Knight falling. I mean the whole point of Chaos is that it is that corrupting and dangerous, so to have one chapter that can ride that tiger and never fall off does weaken things. But... the Grey Knights' army options are firmly in the Radical Unto the Point of Heresy camp.

I think my main point though is that you're definition of Sorcery is a rather limited one. By limiting sorcery to using daemonic pacts to boost an individual's power, you're leaving out acts that IMO are just as far over the line into sorcery, yet don't involve signing away one's soul. Plus, you're setting things up so that 'normal' psyker powers can be considered 'pure' (though risky).

ETA: Quote Tags, how do they work?

History has vindicated the Space Wolves anyway. Their use of the Warp has become the standard, and the Thousand Son's daemonic pacts are clearly understood to be a terrible idea.

Still...
The fall of the Thousand Sons was a tragic one...
Horus was a cunning one...

The truth is that anyone who has any degree of psychic ability, i.e., all human beings, is susceptible to the corruption of Chaos barring training and faith. It's not the psychic ability itself that is corrupting but the interest that the Ruinous Powers and their minions take in those who manifest the ability. "Normal" psykers are not necessarily "pure." Purity is not a measure of someone's use of psychic powers. GK can be terrifically powerful psykers and yet are pure. Purity is a moral stance quite separate from psychic ability. The purity of the GK is what allows them to use daemon weapons, etc, without falling to Chaos. It's not that they can't be corrupted but rather that they have never yet been corrupted. That doesn't make them less interesting but rather more interesting, since they are unique in this ability. Not even Inquisitors have been able to do this, hence the prevalence of Puritanism.




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DarknessEternal wrote:History has vindicated the Space Wolves anyway.

Exactly so. There's no point pretending there is no difference when we know perfectly well that there is one. Just because they didn't know it in M31 doesn't mean it wasn't actually the case.

DarknessEternal wrote:History has vindicated the Space Wolves anyway. Their use of the Warp has become the standard, and the Thousand Son's daemonic pacts are clearly understood to be a terrible idea.

Yes, the prevalence of Rune Priests running around using the natural cycles of their home planets in conjunction with talismans of fur and bone is a common sight in the Librarian departments of all Space Marine chapters.

Space Wolf psykers are just as outside the norm as the pre-heresy 1k Sons were, just in a different direction. Where the Sons embraced the potential of the warp and attempted to exploit it through knowledge, exploration, and skill, the Wolves went the opposite way and instead denied that they were using the warp, and insisted on harnessing their powers through superstition, ritual, and trinkets. These views do also reflect the nature of the Imperium pre and post heresy, and while the Sons methods should allow for more power, they also set things up for hubris to come into play, and a fall to happen. The Wolves system, OTOH, should be less powerful due to the hidebound nature of it, and the fact that the superstitious nature of the training should mean that new Rune Priests really shouldn't be doing anything different (and ergo learning new things) than what their teachers tell them. The plus side being that by never even risking overstepping their abilities, they should be slightly safer from all the nastiness that comes with interacting with the Warp.

Bog standard Librarian programs are more a mixture of the two philosophies, obviously choosing to err on the side of caution.

DarknessEternal wrote:History has vindicated the Space Wolves anyway. Their use of the Warp has become the standard, and the Thousand Son's daemonic pacts are clearly understood to be a terrible idea.

Quite the opposite. The Space Wolves advocated against the use of ALL librarians, not just the ones in the Thousand Sons. This is because they viewed the use of psychic powers as employed by librarians to be fundamentally different than what their rune priests do. The ironic part is that in the 40th millennium librarians, as introduced by Magnus 10,000 years prior, are part of the Codex Astartes (written by Guilliman, who of course was on the side of Magnus at Nikaea).

The more subtle point is that rune priests are different from librarians, not because they don't really use the warp, but because they really believe that they don't use it. This is actually a common theme that runs through the entire setting - ignorance can actually be a great defense against Chaos. This is why the Emperor tries to spread the secular Imperial Truth (which, as it turns out, is actually completely false), lies to all his sons about the existence of Chaos, and sides with Space Wolves at Nikaea to forbid the use of librarians.

Wait, Abadabadoobaddon, don't breeze by DarknessEternals' real point so quickly: there is a real difference between being a psyker and being a a Chaos Sorcerer.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:The Space Wolves advocated against the use of ALL librarians, not just the ones in the Thousand Sons. This is because they viewed the use of psychic powers as employed by librarians to be fundamentally different than what their rune priests do.

Quite so. The Librarium was founded upon daemonic pacts and channeling. This is what Magnus taught, so that's what they were, even though no one understood daemons yet. The Space Wolves were correct in this area about the dangers of the Librarium, even though, once again, they didn't know why.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
The more subtle point is that rune priests are different from librarians, not because they don't really use the warp, but because they really believe that they don't use it. This is actually a common theme that runs through the entire setting - ignorance can actually be a great defense against Chaos.

I do not disagree. What I meant by "the standard" was non-daemonic warp use.

Well the evidence stands that the the techniques, the education, the equipment, and even game representation of rune priests is significantly different then librarian of the Librarium.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:The more subtle point is that rune priests are different from librarians, not because they don't really use the warp, but because they really believe that they don't use it. This is actually a common theme that runs through the entire setting - ignorance can actually be a great defense against Chaos. This is why the Emperor tries to spread the secular Imperial Truth (which, as it turns out, is actually completely false), lies to all his sons about the existence of Chaos, and sides with Space Wolves at Nikaea to forbid the use of librarians.

That's more faith than ignorance, but I agree that the post-heresy Imperium places a lot of importance on items like faith and ignorance that are the opposite of the original Imperial Truth. It's nice, that attitude is at once the thing that holds the Imperium together now that the Emperor is gone, and at the same time is what slowly weakening them in advance of their eventual fall.

DarknessEternal wrote:Quite so. The Librarium was founded upon daemonic pacts and channeling. This is what Magnus taught, so that's what they were, even though no one understood daemons yet. The Space Wolves were correct in this area about the dangers of the Librarium, even though, once again, they didn't know why.

Wha...? You want to point out exactly where it says that the pre-Nikea Librariums did daemonic pacts? You really think the Emperor would have allowed a legion wide program to be implemented that involved deals with daemons? At no point are Librarians mentioned as even knowing about tutelaries (or anything similar), and even in the Sons, tutelaries were not exactly common. You had to be a tenth degree black belt in warpology to get one.

If nothing else, if the Librarium had been based on daemonic pacts, then you'd expect pretty much every Librarian to have gone over the edge during the Heresy.

You want to point out exactly where it says that the pre-Nikea Librariums did daemonic pacts?

A Thousand Sons.

You really think the Emperor would have allowed a legion wide program to be implemented that involved deals with daemons?

He put a stop to it at Nikaea (Point A). We don't know why the Chapters have Librarians except that Guilliman must have included them in Codex Astartes (Point B). But everything between Point A and Point B is still a mystery.

You sure that wasn't just hyperbole on the part of the speaker (which I'm assuming was either that Rune Priest or Russ, I think Mortarion focused on the specific planet he fought daemons on)? Prospero Burns makes it pretty clear that the people of Fenris and the Wolves have a rather, shall we say, expansive definition of maleficarum.

If the Librarium were that up on daemonic pacts, you'd think the Librarians in the DA HH books would have been a little more up to speed on Chaos when it shows up.

And seriously, if you're trying to say that the original Librarian program involved daemonic pacts, and that the Emperor signed off on something involving daemonic pacts, but then changed his mind, I'm going to call troll. God knows we're making up rationalizations whole cloth, but that's not even realistic, even with the dubious definition of realistic that the Warhammer universe works with.

CpatTom wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:I have a related question I've been meaning to ask

The Black Templars don't use Librarians, if I'm correct. So what happens if a BT Initiate suddenly displays Psychic Potential while in training? Is he washed out? Sent to another Fists chapter?

ATTEMPTED THREAD HI-JACK!!! LAUNCH EXTERMINATUS!!!

but the SW have super special snow flake powers apparently, but in reality (40k reality), they just get their doombolts from the same place....

That was some impressive thread hijack response systems. I wonder if i can get it for my car.

You can, you just need to have connections to the imperial navy..............

I've said too much...

I don't think the Emperor ever specifically approved of what Magnus was doing or that the Librarian-structure from the Codex was at that time universal across the legions. In fact, we know it was not because the SW had such completely different practices from the Thousand Sons.

I suspect that the Space Wolves (as they developed on Fenris, not the original Terran forces) didn't change anything other than the weapons and armor they used once they were transmogrified from locals into Space Marines. So any mortal Rune Priest that made the cut to join probably just kept on doing whatever it is that mortal Rune Priests do on Fenris.

Sad that there's no info on pre-heresy recruiting practices for the Wolves. Given the larger Legion size, they'd have to do something a bit different than let the screwheads beat on each other and then pick up whoever looks hard core.

I don't know that there would be much of a difference between pre- and post-Heresy SW recruiting practices.

Bigger legion size, with bigger battles and losses, plus the fact that there's no reason why they couldn't be looking to grow their numbers, as opposed to holding steady at around 100-150 per Wolf Company, would mean that they'd most likely have to recruit more people. The current system involves letting the people of Fenris hit each other in the head and then picking either the winner and/or a really good loser, which makes for a pretty select crew, but during the Great Crusade they'd probably need more recruits than that. You'd think they might want to grab some warriors before most of them have gotten themselves deaded.

Oh, I thought you meant regarding selecting/training Rune Priests.

Nah, they use those battles as in flight entertainment.

And the Rune Priests believe they're channelling Fenris's power (which, when you think about it, is pretty heretical too).

No argument that SW don't toe the Imperial line (remember Armageddon?) but "unorthodox" doesn't mean "heresy" as in "corruption" in this case. These are all separate terms, we should remember. The beliefs of loyal servants of the Emperor are quite disparate. There is room for both the Inquisition and the Space Wolves, although both parties would themselves disagree.

Manchu wrote:Wait, Abadabadoobaddon, don't breeze by DarknessEternals' real point so quickly: there is a real difference between being a psyker and being a a Chaos Sorcerer.

My point is that such a difference is largely one that a priori only exists in the mind of the practitioner. Sure, in hindsight we can say that Magnus was a sorcerer all along, but that's only because he came out on the losing end of his bargain. It's strongly hinted that in order to make the primarchs the Emperor made similar pacts with the chaos gods, then turned around and reneged - but he's not considered a chaos sorcerer because the gods didn't get his soul (yet).

Abadabadoobaddon wrote: It's strongly hinted that in order to make the primarchs the Emperor made similar pacts with the chaos gods,

That has only been hinted at by daemons, who are quite unreliable and definitely would benefit from people believing it whether it was true or not.


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daveNYC wrote:
If the Librarium were that up on daemonic pacts, you'd think the Librarians in the DA HH books would have been a little more up to speed on Chaos when it shows up.

No one understood what daemons really were at that time. Remember, they were just considered aliens that lived in the warp by those were considered the experts.

Chaos wasn't a concept grasped by anyone in the Imperium until well into the actual Heresy.

It's strongly hinted that in order to make the primarchs the Emperor made similar pacts with the chaos gods, then turned around and reneged - but he's not considered a chaos sorcerer because the gods didn't get his soul (yet).

Whether or not we consider the Emperor a sorcerer is truly a matter that's up for dark debate. Magnus seems to think he is one, which makes Magnus all the more bitter about being chastised.

Manchu wrote:No argument that SW don't toe the Imperial line (remember Armageddon?) but "unorthodox" doesn't mean "heresy" as in "corruption" in this case. These are all separate terms, we should remember. The beliefs of loyal servants of the Emperor are quite disparate. There is room for both the Inquisition and the Space Wolves, although both parties would themselves disagree.

Well that all depends on how much of a Puritan you're dealing with. :-)

Although if you want to discuss the difference between disobedient and disloyal in the context of what Magnus and the Thousand Sons did, that could be entertaining.

Oh, I thought you meant regarding selecting/training Rune Priests.

Honestly, I figure they just grab whoever meets their criteria and just have them train under an existing Rune Priest, who is probably just doing whatever he did as a mortal Rune Priest, just with Astartes capabilities backing him. Old school and traditional is what I think of for a lot of what the Wolves do. Yeah, they have their rowdy guys and whatnot, but in some ways they're even more hidebound than the Ultramarines. Just wish that the fluff or crunch would reflect some of that.

Of course this is the game that takes something as obviously 'not good' as the Black Rage and manages to make it a potential positive on the tabletop. So there is that.

Although if you want to discuss the difference between disobedient and disloyal in the context of what Magnus and the Thousand Sons did, that could be entertaining.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/271354.page

DarknessEternal wrote:

daveNYC wrote:
If the Librarium were that up on daemonic pacts, you'd think the Librarians in the DA HH books would have been a little more up to speed on Chaos when it shows up.

No one understood what daemons really were at that time. Remember, they were just considered aliens that lived in the warp by those were considered the experts.

Chaos wasn't a concept grasped by anyone in the Imperium until well into the actual Heresy.

To be accurate, there was at least one person who had a very strong handle on the concept of Chaos, and as Emperor, he would have been the one to sign off on the original Librarian program. The Emperor has made a lot of boneheaded moves in the HH books, but I'm not going to buy that he let daemon pacts slip into a training program that was in use by all (not including Space Wolves) legions.

This is a serious weak spot in the HH books. In Horus Rising, you've got a marine getting posessed, and the marines are all freaked out, but a bloody regular mortal is just like "Oh yeah, daemons, those things happen." Yet in Legion, Alpharius knows enough about the stuff to be able to explain how that planet's population had been able to hold off the army for as long as they did (plus, it informs his decision at the end of the novel), and in the first DA book, one Librarian manages to build a bomb to close a warp rift.

Honestly, calling the daemons aliens from the warp isn't that inaccurate. They are basically just aliens from the warp who feed off of specific emotions, and because they're from the warp, they can make the laws of physics cry. The fact that 'sentient energy creature' is so hard to understand in 30k would indicate that all copies of Star Trek episodes were lost sometime in the distant past.

daveNYC wrote:Just wish that the fluff or crunch would reflect some of that.

Of course this is the game that takes something as obviously 'not good' as the Black Rage and manages to make it a potential positive on the tabletop. So there is that.

And I wish their rules would represent their fluff, but there you have it. And if the Blood Angels were to have a *gasp* flaw, then some players might leave them in favour of something that's now seven feet tall in power armour.

Manchu wrote:

Although if you want to discuss the difference between disobedient and disloyal in the context of what Magnus and the Thousand Sons did, that could be entertaining.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/271354.page

Ah yes. Consider the words 'discuss' and 'entertaining' to have somewhat flexible definitions.

I stand by the points I made in that thread and I think the ones about Magnus have all been borne out in A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns.

The Space Wolves are mutant, warp weilding, scum. They, like all Imperial forces, are hypocritical.

You forgot to scream "death to the false emperor!"

Manchu wrote:I stand by the points I made in that thread and I think the ones about Magnus have all been borne out in A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns.

I'd be happy to argue until the cows come home concerning the information out of A Thousand Sons, however dead horse abuse is frowned upon, not to mention that nothing particularly productive would come of it.

I have to ask though, what exactly was borne out based on info from Prospero Burns? Love it or hate it, the one thing it really doesn't have is much more information regarding Magnus. Heck, it barely has any new information regarding Russ (which IMO was a horrible missed opportunity).

I don't know, I think Prospero Burns confirmed wholeheartedly that the SW were engineered to go after traitor legions. I really don't see how anyone can read A Thousand Sons and not learn that Magnus was an incredibly arrogant catspaw of Tzeentch AND (as a related but separate matter) a willful traitor, whatever his intentions/justifications.

Well chock full o'pride I can definitely get behind. Pride is the core weakness of both the good and bad guys in the setting.

Rest of it, less so, but that's neither here nor there.

So, just to recap what I've garnered at this point.

Psychics are defined on a scale (for understanding) of purity which determines there definition as a Sorcery (Less pure, more Chaos) or the opposite, which is Grey Knights, Rune Priests etc (not baby sacrificing to Lords of the Warp).

So, they all start as psychics (genetics correct?), then at some point throw in their allegiance (or not allegiance, but turn to them for aid) with the Warp bounds.

Follow questions:
Are Rune priests all recruited from Fenris, or do they get some black ship love? (Numbers of psychers to non psychers, here.

Have any Rune Priests fallen?

For discussion. Heretical question:
Could the Emperor be a warp being at this point, and thus the Grey Knights have "fallen" to him, protecting them from the influence of the other Chaos Lords?

The Emperor still being 'alive' prevents him becoming a warp deity. Whether he will become a god on his death is more... controversial. I'd say it's not true, since Tzeentchian cultists were the ones who put the claim forward in the first place IIRC.

CpatTom: I don't think any SM psykers are recruited via the Inquisition (i.e., Blackships). SW have definitely fallen. Whether there were Rune Priests among them is not clear but certainly possible.

Also, I would like to thank y'all for the responses. Very interesting stuff, and I appreciate the knowledge.

CpatTom wrote:
Are Rune priests all recruited from Fenris,

All Space Wolf rune priests are. Fenris is their only recruiting world.

The Wolf Brothers' rune priests probably came from their world, if they actually managed to recruit any before they were disbanded.


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daveNYC wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:
Chaos wasn't a concept grasped by anyone in the Imperium until well into the actual Heresy.

To be accurate, there was at least one person who had a very strong handle on the concept of Chaos, and as Emperor, he would have been the one to sign off on the original Librarian program. The Emperor has made a lot of boneheaded moves in the HH books, but I'm not going to buy that he let daemon pacts slip into a training program that was in use by all (not including Space Wolves) legions.

Well, it wasn't all. Not all the legions and a Librarium. Also, the Emperor did make exactly these kind of stupid decisions throughout his history. Although he probably wasn't even aware it was going on. The Emperor actually took very little interest in the operation of his Imperium, as we've been shown.

CpatTom wrote:Psychics are defined on a scale (for understanding) of purity which determines there definition as a Sorcery (Less pure, more Chaos) or the opposite, which is Grey Knights, Rune Priests etc (not baby sacrificing to Lords of the Warp).

So, they all start as psychics (genetics correct?), then at some point throw in their allegiance (or not allegiance, but turn to them for aid) with the Warp bounds.

Follow questions:
Are Rune priests all recruited from Fenris, or do they get some black ship love? (Numbers of psychers to non psychers, here.

Have any Rune Priests fallen?

For discussion. Heretical question:
Could the Emperor be a warp being at this point, and thus the Grey Knights have "fallen" to him, protecting them from the influence of the other Chaos Lords?

Isn't GK being soulbound still part of the fluff? That could be considered to be something similar (in result) to a daemonic pact. Fluff basically says that some of the Emperor's strength goes with the soulbound individual.

I don't think the Wolves recruit anyone not from Fenris.

Sorcerers don't necessarily need to be psykers, indeed I think the key use for sorcery in the 40k universe is as a tool to allow anyone to be able to unleash the warp. Luther rocks some sorcery, and there's never been any indication that he's a psyker.

Personally, I don't think you can have something as simple as a sliding scale of what's sorcery vs regular psyker power and have pure/impure on the same axis. Like I said upthread, there's a lot of stuff that the GK do in the current codex that's pretty far out there, yet they're considered the purest of the pure.

So, how many Rune Priests are there?

So, you dont have to be a psycker to be a sorcerer?

CpatTom wrote:So, you dont have to be a psycker to be a sorcerer?

People with no psychic ability to speak of can use Chaos sorcery. (We saw this in Prospero Burns.)

As many Rune Priests as the fluff requires. Rough ballpark, there'd be at most five per company, and even that's just guessing. They're the Wolves, they do what they want when it comes to the org chart.

And no, you don't. It helps, and it's useful for explaining how you started down the path in the first place, but part of sorcery is that it's a shortcut to power that comes at a horrible price. You can say it's through the assistance of a warp entity, the use of other people's life essence to allow temporary access to the warp, or just through crazy words and diagrams that eventually erode ones sanity, but it's power for the people, at a price.

And it even helps things make sense, since psykers are so rare, and the Inquisition does a pretty good job keeping a lid on them, having sorcery open to everyone helps explain why every planet seems to have at least a half dozen daemon summoning cults running around at any given time.

Manchu wrote:

CpatTom wrote:So, you dont have to be a psycker to be a sorcerer?

People with no psychic ability to speak of can use Chaos sorcery. (We saw this in Prospero Burns.)

Only if they've found a way to talk to the daemons IIRC

Ok, so psychic and sorcerer are not mutually exclusive. So, thats not a scale there at all.

So is there more psykers born on fenris then? Wouldnt they need a larger population percentage in order to fulfill those Rune Priest roles? (Or am I overestimating the number needed ).

CpatTom wrote:Ok, so psychic and sorcerer are not mutually exclusive. So, thats not a scale there at all.

So is there more psykers born on fenris then? Wouldnt they need a larger population percentage in order to fulfill those Rune Priest roles? (Or am I overestimating the number needed ).

On psychic-sorcery, it kind if depends. A lot of what Sorceror marines do seems to just be amplified versions of the Librarian powers, like Doombolt. (not sure how good of a comparison that is, but Librarians can shoot lightning, right?) Summoning daemons and whatnot is also sorcery though, so you could just subdivide it.

I'd guess that the choosers of the fallen are just good at choosing potential rune priests.

Durza wrote:

Manchu wrote:

CpatTom wrote:So, you dont have to be a psycker to be a sorcerer?

People with no psychic ability to speak of can use Chaos sorcery. (We saw this in Prospero Burns.)

Only if they've found a way to talk to the daemons IIRC

No, they can be taught by other totally human cult members.

Rune Priests just like all other Space Wolves come from Fenris. Space Wolves don't recruit based on latent psychic ability either so it can't be that.

I believe there's mention in the Space Wolves codex that awakening the Rune Priest abilities is sort of random where it literally just manifests in certain individuals on Fenris.

So I guess in the end the theory about the planet empowering those with latent psychic talent is what's supposed to be inferred.

Russ Mandarin wrote:Rune Priests just like all other Space Wolves come from Fenris. Space Wolves don't recruit based on latent psychic ability either so it can't be that.

I believe there's mention in the Space Wolves codex that awakening the Rune Priest abilities is sort of random where it literally just manifests in certain individuals on Fenris.

So I guess in the end the theory about the planet empowering those with latent psychic talent is what's supposed to be inferred.

Also don't forget Space marines in general live for hundreds of years. So even if Fenris' entire planet population produced only one individual capable of becoming a Rune Priest a generation, thats still 4-5 individuals per 100 years, so in a 400 year lifespan 20 new RPs have shown up before even 1 living RP dies of a non-combat related death.

daveNYC wrote:This is a serious weak spot in the HH books. In Horus Rising, you've got a marine getting posessed, and the marines are all freaked out, but a bloody regular mortal is just like "Oh yeah, daemons, those things happen." Yet in Legion, Alpharius knows enough about the stuff to be able to explain how that planet's population had been able to hold off the army for as long as they did (plus, it informs his decision at the end of the novel), and in the first DA book, one Librarian manages to build a bomb to close a warp rift.

Well, to be fair, Horus was well aware of the existence of Daemons in Horus Rising, and even explained to Loken that he knew of the beings, and calling them "Daemons," a seemingly superstitious term, was mostly out of convenience.

What mortal just shrugged off Daemons in Horus Rising? Oh, and keep in mind, what bothered the Marines most was that it could make their Battle Brother turn against his brothers, which as constantly emphasized in the series was unthinkable back then. Actually, Loken even mentions he had fought beings from the Empyrean before and was used to them, it was the fact that the Daemon could so easily possess an Astartes that frightened him, since that was unheard of before then.

Manchu wrote:I don't know, I think Prospero Burns confirmed wholeheartedly that the SW were engineered to go after traitor legions. I really don't see how anyone can read A Thousand Sons and not learn that Magnus was an incredibly arrogant catspaw of Tzeentch AND (as a related but separate matter) a willful traitor, whatever his intentions/justifications.

I don't think anyone who read the book can honestly deny that Magnus was arrogant. This is the same man who wholeheartedly spouted "There is no power beyond my control," and believed he was more powerful than the Emperor himself.

He did betray willingly, but... Well, when a moron like Fulgrim believes sending the Space Wolves after the Thousand Sons is a bad idea, it probably is.

I haven't read Prospero Burns I'll admit, so I might have a biased perspective.

I don't think he actually believed that he was more powerful than the Emperor. I'm definitely sure he believed he knew better than the Emperor regarding the use of psykers in the Astartes. The standard 'I'll show them for stopping my research, bwa-ha-ah!' that you get from every mad scientist.

It was that one mortal librarian dude that Loken or whoever talked to. Really don't have the book on me at the moment, but I do remember there was one guy who was all over it. I might be on drugs though.

Prospero Burns is a good book that is a horrible Horus Heresy book. Main thing you learn is that Russ doesn't like to talk to people. You learn this because Russ doesn't talk to the book's narrator. Actually, he does show up like two or three times, but if what you liked about A Thousand Sons was learning about Magnus, Ahriman, and the ways of the Legion, you'll be less happy about Prospero Burns. Plus the actual battle in the title only takes up like ten pages at the end.

You learn a huge amount about the Space Wolves and their customs in Abnett's book. Abnett doesn't like to have Russ in the foreground all the time because he's such a powerful character. McNeill had Magnus on so many pages that he got to be indistinguishable from any other character in terms of impression. When a primarch shows up in the scene, it should be a bit more special. If I were to write for BL, I would never describe the inner monologue of Space Marines for fear of making them mundane much less have the reader constantly privy to the inner-life of a primarch.

Manchu wrote:I don't know, I think Prospero Burns confirmed wholeheartedly that the SW were engineered to go after traitor legions.

I think it confirmed that some folks certainly believe that's their role. I'm not so sure I buy it. There are some primarchs/legions who would've run circles around the Wolves.

Could they have been engineered to be a check on certain other legions' power? That I see as a little more plausible. And it would account for why there are so many similarities of approach/purpose amongst other legions; Raven Guard/Alpha Legion/Night Lords, Imperial Fists/Iron Warriors, etc. Checks and balances.

Manchu wrote:You learn a huge amount about the Space Wolves and their customs in Abnett's book.

I already have the Space Wolves codex and the first SW omnibus. I'm already good on their customs.

Abnett doesn't like to have Russ in the foreground all the time because he's such a powerful character.

Not sure if he's actually come out and said that, but in most stories, powerful characters are usually a good thing. The mortals in most of these stories are there for contrast, to reinforce the image of Space Marines being that much more than human.

If I were to write for BL, I would never describe the inner monologue of Space Marines for fear of making them mundane much less have the reader constantly privy to the inner-life of a primarch.

Do you realize how cardboard like that would make the characters? If all you show is what they say and what they do, and with Space Marines and certain Primarchs the saying is minimal and the doing is mostly punching, then the characters would never develop. Plus any explanation of their motives would have to involve them actually saying what their motives are, which would be pretty silly.

I get that everyone looks for different things in a novel. In the HH books, I'm interested in finding out what made the Primarchs and the traitor legions tick. If you're writing about a legion that already has plenty of stuff writteng about it, and then gloss over the Primarch, you might as well be writing a 40k novel, IMO.

If all you show is what they say and what they do, and with Space Marines and certain Primarchs the saying is minimal and the doing is mostly punching, then the characters would never develop.

I think you have a rather linear imagination if you can't see the benefits of my hypothetical approach. First, SM are post-humans. If you write them like open books you're throwing away their strangeness and the theme of them being inhuman. I think BL novels that constantly intrude upon Space Marines' inner monologues have a strong fan-fictiony flavor. Space Marines are not supposed to be relatable. Their main purpose is to show us that "good" is terrifying in this setting.

Second, engaging the reader's imagination in interpreting the motives of a character who is acting is far, far better than simply telling them, via third person omniscient narration, "Garro felt lonely/mad/contempt." A character does not need to say "I am enthusiastic about fighting heretics" in order to get the point across -- which should be pretty obvious. These are violent scifi adventure novels -- the characters need to be doing things as their top priority, not telling us how they feel about everything. HH books like A Thousand Sons are way too much like soap operas. (As an example, I used to watch True Blood. Someone told me it was a show about vampires. Turns out it was a romance drama where the characters happened to be vampires. I don't watch it any more.) I don't know why people think action and depth of characterization are mutually exclusive. Even in real life, we learn more about the people around us from what they do than what they tell us about themselves.

Manchu wrote:I don't know, I think Prospero Burns confirmed wholeheartedly that the SW were engineered to go after traitor legions. I really don't see how anyone can read A Thousand Sons and not learn that Magnus was an incredibly arrogant catspaw of Tzeentch AND (as a related but separate matter) a willful traitor, whatever his intentions/justifications.

That's a pretty effective way to silence debate. Just say that no one could possibly disagree with you and you win the argument.

I read A Thousand Sons as a pretty clear indictment of the Space Wolves and the loyalists as a whole. Everything Magnus did was self-sacrificing for his legion and the Imperium. Even when he knew his actions would violate the letter of Nikaea, he sacrificed himself to warn the Emperor of Horus' treachery. In response, the Space Wolves decided to wipe the Thousand Sons from the face of Prospero. When finally confronted with the choice of losing his entire legion, Magnus agreed to join Tzeentch, damning himself to save his sons.

It's a level of personal sacrifice that the Loyalists would never make or even understand.

Obviously Ahriman fethed it all up with the Rubric.

Magnus made a lot of decisions that caught up to him. His arrogance and ambivalence about the consequences could make him appear to have sacrificed himself but that is contradicted by his characterization. Magnus believes himself to know more than the Emperor about the Warp and to know better than the Emperor what is good for mankind. He therefore gets himself tied up with Chaos -- that is, he actively makes the decision to deal with Tzeentch and arrogantly dismisses that the cost will be too high for him to pay. Later on, when the gak hits the fan, he doesn't "give himself up to Tzeentch to save his Legion" he just pays the piper.

biccat wrote:

Manchu wrote:I don't know, I think Prospero Burns confirmed wholeheartedly that the SW were engineered to go after traitor legions. I really don't see how anyone can read A Thousand Sons and not learn that Magnus was an incredibly arrogant catspaw of Tzeentch AND (as a related but separate matter) a willful traitor, whatever his intentions/justifications.

That's a pretty effective way to silence debate. Just say that no one could possibly disagree with you and you win the argument.

Actually, the really good way to silence debate is to link to the ten page trainwreck of a thread where this was already hashed out, and the only opinions that were changed were related to the the posters' opinions of each other.

Actually, 1hadhq and I get along pretty well. That thread was hardly a trainwreck. That was one of the most interesting discussions I've ever had about 40k and it forced me to read a bunch of stuff and master the source material in a way that I hadn't before. Then Graham McNeill and Dan Abnett came along and confirmed all the points I made. I can't really take credit for those points, since as I illustrated in that thread with numerous sources, I didn't make the stuff up -- that's what was already written by GW-employed authors.

Any way, neither post of mine was meant as a way to silence debate or actually managed to do so as you both just proved.

Manchu wrote:Magnus made a lot of decisions that caught up to him. His arrogance and ambivalence about the consequences could make him appear to have sacrificed himself but that is contradicted by his characterization.

That's taking the entire book out of context. The history of Magnus isn't "arrogance and ambivalence," it's study and careful consideration of his options and selecting the best one. Look towards the end of A Thousand Sons where he could have used his power over the warp to divert or destroy Russ' ships, knowing what was in store.

Manchu wrote:Magnus believes himself to know more than the Emperor about the Warp

You're confusing Magnus with Russ. Russ is the one who deliberately ignored the edict of Nikaea, Magnus told the Thousand Sons to abide by the rule, and only violated it when the fate of the Imperium was at stake. Russ, on the other hand, naively and arrogantly believed that the edict didn't apply to him or his pups and ignored it with impunity.

Manchu wrote:and to know better than the Emperor what is good for mankind. He therefore gets himself tied up with Chaos -- that is, he actively makes the decision to deal with Tzeentch and arrogantly dismisses that the cost will be too high for him to pay. Later on, when the gak hits the fan, he doesn't "give himself up to Tzeentch to save his Legion" he just pays the piper.

I don't know where you get this from, because it's completely wrong. He doesn't get tied up with Chaos based on "what is good for mankind." He gets tied up with Chaos to save his legion from the flesh change. Remember, even the Emperor didn't understand the full scope of the Chaos Gods, his creation of the Primarchs involved dealing with and betraying the Chaos Gods.

And at the end of A Thousand Sons he doesn't "pay the piper," he obviously has a choice whether to accept defeat and erratication by the (traitorous) Space Wolves or to accept Tzeentch's aid.

Manchu wrote:Magnus made a lot of decisions that caught up to him. His arrogance and ambivalence about the consequences could make him appear to have sacrificed himself but that is contradicted by his characterization. Magnus believes himself to know more than the Emperor about the Warp and to know better than the Emperor what is good for mankind. He therefore gets himself tied up with Chaos -- that is, he actively makes the decision to deal with Tzeentch and arrogantly dismisses that the cost will be too high for him to pay. Later on, when the gak hits the fan, he doesn't "give himself up to Tzeentch to save his Legion" he just pays the piper.

Considering that the deal with Tzeentch was to stop the flesh change that was destroying his legion, it's not like you can really fault him. You really think that any other Primarch, if faced with the destruction of their sons, and provided with the same level of support from the Emperor, wouldn't have ended up doing anything to stop it?

Magnus' story is basically being put in bad situations, then making bad decisions for the best of reasons to get out of them.
1) Flesh change -> Emperor isn't helping, Magnus can't stop it on his own, ends up making a deal with Tzeentch.
2) Horus being corrupted -> Burns thralls to attempt to have an intervention with Horus. Fails, first actual documented use of what I would call sorcery by Magnus in fluff, and the result is Horus knows that Magnus is loyal and using sorcery. Step one for bringing Wolves down on Prospero.
3) Warning the Emperor -> I believe he traveled the warp and webway under his own power, but had to accept help from what was most likely Tzeentzch to bust into the web (Tzeentzch probably did it for free, just for the LOLs). End result, warp gate is busted, throne is a mess, daemons pouring into the palace basement and the Emperor isn't happy. Step two for bringing Wolves down on Prospero.
4) Realizes he's been played -> Knows Wolves are coming, so he sends away all defenses so that at least the Wolves won't be totally crippled by losses when they attack Prospero. Probably should have just up and run instead, and then maybe rolled into Terra at the siege to help save the bacon.
5) Final sacrifice -> To prevent the very last of his legion from getting Wolfed, he discoroprates his body, and the energy from that is used to transport the surviving Sons to the Eye. End result is he prevents their deaths, but they're now stuck playing for Tzeentzch. Also too, the Flesh Change is back and better than ever, leading to the Rubric, which literally turns Magnus' small gain of saving his legion to dust.

It's a character arc that goes from confidence (arrogance), knowledge and optimism to fatalism and surrender.


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Manchu wrote:Actually, 1hadhq and I get along pretty well. That thread was hardly a trainwreck. That was one of the most interesting discussions I've ever had about 40k and it forced me to read a bunch of stuff and master the source material in a way that I hadn't before. Then Graham McNeill and Dan Abnett came along and confirmed all the points I made. I can't really take credit for those points, since as I illustrated in that thread with numerous sources, I didn't make the stuff up -- that's what was already written by GW-employed authors.

Any way, neither post of mine was meant as a way to silence debate or actually managed to do so as you both just proved.

Silence debate was a bad choice of words, I actually took your earlier post to mean "guys, this horse has been beaten in this other thread, if you want to start this up again go there".

The Emperor made it perfectly clear that the edict at Nikaea was of the gravest importance, a matter of loyalty. Magnus told his Legion to cut out the parlor tricks and then himself proceeded to cast a spell that destabilized the wards of the Palace itself. If you think he did it just "to save the Imperium" then you have totally misunderstood the character. He was proving a point to daddy. Yes, he claimed that this egregious example of trafficking with Tzeentch -- and that's what it was, whether or not Magnus was too arrogantly blind to notice -- would save the Emperor. But it was "just as planned" and moved the Heresy along very nicely as far as Horus and the Ruinous Powers were concerned. Magnus played his role perfectly from the beginning. What was the price for stabilizing his Legion? -- that eventually he would send the psychic message to Terra, distract Russ and the Wolves, undermine the palace defense, and ultimately knowingly kneel to Tzeentch.

When faced with accepting the fate he had called down upon himself and finally obeying the Emperor, even if it meant his death

-OR-

declaring openly that he was a traitor (he had been one all along; now it was just a matter of admitting it) who was badly treated by an ungrateful father

... Magnus chose the latter. He did no "sacrifice himself." He saved himself. He did not do what was best for his father or for mankind. He joined the fight to destroy his father and subjugate mankind to the deprivations of the Ruinous Powers.


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Silence debate was a bad choice of words, I actually took your earlier post to mean "guys, this horse has been beaten in this other thread, if you want to start this up again go there".

No, I posted it because I'm pretty proud of it. Just like our current discussion here, this is what keeps me interested in 40k and makes me love Dakka. Being a mod is tremendously tiresome but chatting the 40k perspectives with intelligent fans like you and biccat is great!

I have a completely different take on Magnus' motivation for his actions at the end of A Thousand Sons. You say he was saving himself, I say he was working to save what remained of his legion. Plus it works neatly with the overarching Tzeentzchian plot; saving his legion in the beginning from the flesh change is how Tzeentzch first got his hooks into Magnus, and saving his legion from the Wolves at the end is how Tzeentzch finally reeled him in at the end. And like I said, if his motivation was saving his Sons, then that makes the side effects of the Rubric that much more traumatic for him.

declaring openly that he was a traitor (he had been one all along; now it was just a matter of admitting it)

Man, not only are you not going to give Magnus credit for anything he ever did, but you're also using a rather expansive definition of traitor. Up until he he busted down the door at Terra, he hadn't done anything that hurt the Imperium.
Made a deal with Tzeentzch, sure, but at the time the price wasn't that big (his eye), and strangely, it's not like the Emperor ever said not to.
Used sorcery to try and stop Horus from falling. Criminal, worthy of sanction, but that to did not harm to the Imperium.
Even the run on Terra was done with the intention of warning the Emperor of Horus, although in that case it was definitely harmful to the Imperium.

Unless you're expanding treason to include doing anything the Emperor disapproved of (at which point EVERY primarch would be guilty probably), then I think you're being rather uncharitable.

As far as Space Marines being unknowable post-humans, I disagree. The 40k marines are somewhat like that, but the 30k ones are just more like regular humans, only better. The 30k setting is much more open and optimistic than 40k, so these are marines who not only were regular human for the first 10-15 years (like all of them), but have been raised on the Imperial Truth, not the Imperial Creed, and regularly interact with both the populations they invade/rescue, the Imperial Army units they're with, and all the rememberances and the like in the fleets. Physically they're the same, but mentally they're the product of a much different environment.

Manchu wrote:The Emperor made it perfectly clear that the edict at Nikaea was of the gravest importance, a matter of loyalty. Magnus told his Legion to cut out the parlor tricks and then himself proceeded to cast a spell that destabilized the wards of the Palace itself.

Well, you're ignoring the "Horus is turning against the Emperor" impetus for Magnus casting the spell in the first place. I could also make the point that in casting that spell he inadvertently destroyed the manacles that were intended to enslave him to the Golden Throne. Remember, the Emperor had a plan for Magnus, and it wasn't at all a very nice plan.

The ultimate problem with the Space Wolves enforcing the edict of Nicaea is twofold:

- The Emperor didn't order the destruction of the Thousand Sons, it was Horus. This leads to the obvious (to me) implication that Russ was being used by Horus, either negligently or willfully, to eliminate one of the biggest threats to his coup.

- Second, the Space Wolves had themselves never intended to follow the edict and proudly violated both the letter and spirit of it. They rightfully saw the outcome of Nicaea as "sanction Magnus," not to prohibit the use of psykers.

The Wolves thought it didn't apply to them because they are oh so special snowflakes and obviously don't use the heretical Librarians that other Legions do. Nope, their powers come from the natural life and death cycles of Fenris.

The Council of Nikaea wasn't meant to ban sorcery, it was meant to ban psykers specifically, or Librarians. The Wolves exploited a loophole formed through ignorance to continue using psykers without sanction.


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daveNYC wrote:I don't think he actually believed that he was more powerful than the Emperor. I'm definitely sure he believed he knew better than the Emperor regarding the use of psykers in the Astartes. The standard 'I'll show them for stopping my research, bwa-ha-ah!' that you get from every mad scientist.

I may be wrong. According to Omegus Magnus simply thought his overall mastery of the Warp was superior, but the Emperor was still more powerful.

It was that one mortal librarian dude that Loken or whoever talked to. Really don't have the book on me at the moment, but I do remember there was one guy who was all over it. I might be on drugs though.

Oh the old dude? Guy was traumatised, lol. As in, borderline catatonic. Seeing the daemon freaked him right the feth out.

Prospero Burns is a good book that is a horrible Horus Heresy book. Main thing you learn is that Russ doesn't like to talk to people. You learn this because Russ doesn't talk to the book's narrator. Actually, he does show up like two or three times, but if what you liked about A Thousand Sons was learning about Magnus, Ahriman, and the ways of the Legion, you'll be less happy about Prospero Burns. Plus the actual battle in the title only takes up like ten pages at the end.

Hm, I see. Well, that's a little disappointing, but will still give it a read when I acquire it.

I think there's a bit of "the end is the beginning is the end" nonlinear time type stuff happening here. When Magnus sacrifices his eye it's implied that he doesn't sacrifice his eye "from now on" but sacrifices ever having an eye (nobody notices its gone all of a sudden). His decisions are "extra-temporal" in a sense. The flesh change may actually be the result of Magnus' ultimate decision to go to Tzeentch which in turn is its cause (or maybe it's the Rubric which "causes" everything?). They are called the Thousand Sons at their founding because only a thousand of them are left at their end. And their symbol is the ouroboros.

Manchu wrote:The Emperor made it perfectly clear that the edict at Nikaea was of the gravest importance, a matter of loyalty. Magnus told his Legion to cut out the parlor tricks and then himself proceeded to cast a spell that destabilized the wards of the Palace itself. If you think he did it just "to save the Imperium" then you have totally misunderstood the character. He was proving a point to daddy.

This I would sort of agree with. I do believe Magnus used sorcery to warn the Emperor so he could prove a point, to validate his beliefs. But it exploded in his face.

BUT, to be fair to Magnus, know how this could of been avoided?

If the Emperor told Magnus about the Webway Gate from the beginning. Since, you know, he was the person he wanted to sit on the damn thing.

Magnus did want to prove a point to his father, that is true, but at the same time, he did care about the Imperium, and ultimately went to great pains do try to save it.

Yes, he claimed that this egregious example of trafficking with Tzeentch -- and that's what it was, whether or not Magnus was too arrogantly blind to notice -- would save the Emperor. But it was "just as planned" and moved the Heresy along very nicely as far as Horus and the Ruinous Powers were concerned. Magnus played his role perfectly from the beginning. What was the price for stabilizing his Legion? -- that eventually he would send the psychic message to Terra, distract Russ and the Wolves, undermine the palace defense, and ultimately knowingly kneel to Tzeentch.

I'm not sure you can really fault Magnus for being tricked by Tzeentch. I mean, come on. It's Tzeentch. That's what makes Magnus so tragic, he thought he was in control of his power, of the Empyrean, but ultimately, he was its pawn all along.

When faced with accepting the fate he had called down upon himself and finally obeying the Emperor, even if it meant his death

Considering that's exactly what he was doing, yeah. He allowed the Space Wolves to catch his legion with their pants down, and Ahriman even says Magnus has no intention of coming back alive from a fight with the Wolves, he was sacrificing himself to save his Legion. Only through Tzeentch's intervention did Magnus survive.

declaring openly that he was a traitor (he had been one all along; now it was just a matter of admitting it) who was badly treated by an ungrateful father

Magnus never had any intention of betraying the Emperor until he saw the barbarity of the Space Wolve's destruction, and chose to save his Legion, while damning himself.

... Magnus chose the latter. He did no "sacrifice himself." He saved himself. He did not do what was best for his father or for mankind. He joined the fight to destroy his father and subjugate mankind to the deprivations of the Ruinous Powers.

Magnus didn't screw the Emperor, the Emperor screwed Magnus.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:I think there's a bit of "the end is the beginning is the end" nonlinear time type stuff happening here. When Magnus sacrifices his eye it's implied that he doesn't sacrifice his eye "from now on" but sacrifices ever having an eye (nobody notices its gone all of a sudden). His decisions are "extra-temporal" in a sense. The flesh change may actually be the result of Magnus' ultimate decision to go to Tzeentch which in turn is its cause (or maybe it's the Rubric which "causes" everything?). They are called the Thousand Sons at their founding because only a thousand of them are left at their end. And their symbol is the ouroboros.

Sounds interesting. Although I know they were called the Thousand Sons because they numbered only 1000 when Magnus first joined his Legion. The rest had succumbed to the Flesh Change and put in stasis.

Wasn't their original symbol a starburst?

biccat wrote: Remember, the Emperor had a plan for Magnus, and it wasn't at all a very nice plan.

You misread that.

The Emperor's plan for Magnus was exactly what Magnus had always dreamt his life was for. Powering the Golden Throne would have brought meaning to his entire existence and is everything he longed for. He stated this specifically.

That he ruined this by invading the palace and wrecking it was what caused him to cross the Despair Event Horizon. Afterwards, he didn't even bother mentioning anything about Horus before he went home to mope and give in to Tzeentch.

The Emperor had been right all along and Magnus was wrong. That's what broke Magnus.

DarknessEternal wrote:The Emperor had been right all along and Magnus was wrong. That's what broke Magnus.

Which makes sense considering that he thought so very highly of himself.


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Abadabadoobaddon wrote:His decisions are "extra-temporal" in a sense.

That's fantastic. I love that idea; it makes a huge deal of sense to me.


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Void__Dragon wrote:I'm not sure you can really fault Magnus for being tricked by Tzeentch. I mean, come on. It's Tzeentch.

If there was no way that Magnus could have resisted then the story would be pointless.

I really love the character of Magnus. Truly, he may be my favorite Primarch when all is said and done -- although there is not a one of them I don't like. I just don't see him as trying to save the Imperium. I think he justified and rationalized doing what he wanted with that -- it's all tied up in trying to prove to the Emperor, whose approval he absolutely craved, that the Warp wasn't so bad. But the Emperor knew otherwise, hence the Imperial Webway project that Magnus destroyed.

DarknessEternal wrote:

biccat wrote: Remember, the Emperor had a plan for Magnus, and it wasn't at all a very nice plan.

You misread that.

The Emperor's plan for Magnus was exactly what Magnus had always dreamt his life was for. Powering the Golden Throne would have brought meaning to his entire existence and is everything he longed for. He stated this specifically.

I'm going to have to reread that section of the book, but wasn't the plan for Magnus to sit on the throne and protect the new webway sections that the Emperor was building to connect all the parts of the Imperium? And wasn't the main goal of that plan to remove the need to use the warp for communication and travel? I mean sure it'd be important and all, but I don't think Magnus had always dreamed that his life was meant to do away with the necesity and use of psychic powers.

Manchu wrote:If there was no way that Magnus could have resisted then the story would be pointless.

Absolutely. I'd actually say that resisted isn't the right word. This isn't like Fulgrim who was constantly being ground down by the influence of the daemon sword and the original trip to the temple, or Horus on the edge of death being show a whole bunch of smoke and mirrors. It's choice that's key. The whole fall of the Sons was the result of Tzeentzch presenting Magnus with a series of choices. Of course he stacked the deck, but each choice was made freely. Which is a theme that shows up in Battle for the Fang, when Magnus stops time and gives the Wolf Lord the choice to kill him or not, with the resulting axe blow actually freeing Magnus to fully manifest on Fenris and totally go to town on people.

DarknessEternal wrote: Afterwards, he didn't even bother mentioning anything about Horus before he went home to mope and give in to Tzeentch.

Conjecture.

The contents of their conversation was not actually shown, unless it was in some other book.


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Manchu wrote:If there was no way that Magnus could have resisted then the story would be pointless.

I really love the character of Magnus. Truly, he may be my favorite Primarch when all is said and done -- although there is not a one of them I don't like. I just don't see him as trying to save the Imperium. I think he justified and rationalized doing what he wanted with that -- it's all tied up in trying to prove to the Emperor, whose approval he absolutely craved, that the Warp wasn't so bad. But the Emperor knew otherwise, hence the Imperial Webway project that Magnus destroyed.

Actually I disagree.

The point was that Magnus could do nothing to resist Tzeentch after he first encountered it, that Magnus, for all his power, was nothing before the primal force he thought he could master, and that Magnus' entire life was spent being a pawn of Tzeentch. The realization of this in his tower crushed Magnus, and finally broke his pride, completely and utterly.

daveNYC wrote:
I'm going to have to reread that section of the book, but wasn't the plan for Magnus to sit on the throne and protect the new webway sections that the Emperor was building to connect all the parts of the Imperium? And wasn't the main goal of that plan to remove the need to use the warp for communication and travel? I mean sure it'd be important and all, but I don't think Magnus had always dreamed that his life was meant to do away with the necesity and use of psychic powers.

It's stated plainly. The Emperor's plan to usher humanity into a new age of dominance and saftey used Magnus as the keystone. That's what Magnus was already trying to do himself, he didn't realize the Emperor already had that mapped out in a far less stupid way than Magnus was trying.

It also wasn't doing away with psychic powers. It was about confining them to a codified science that was predictable and controllable. Once again, something Magnus was trying to do, but doing poorly with his daemonic pacts.

Magnus' flaw was his unbelievable arrogance that he was always right (ironically, this also his father's greatest flaw). This event showed him that not only was he wrong, but his actions made things worse. That's what broke him.


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Void__Dragon wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote: Afterwards, he didn't even bother mentioning anything about Horus before he went home to mope and give in to Tzeentch.

Conjecture.

The contents of their conversation was not actually shown, unless it was in some other book.

They didn't have a conversation. The whole encounter is recounted. Magnus never says anything before he leaves.

It works like this basically.

Germanic Pagan Spirituality...In space! That's actually fueled by the Warp. It's just so out there that Fenrisians simply say it's "Shamans" not Psykers.

Manchu wrote:The Emperor made it perfectly clear that the edict at Nikaea was of the gravest importance, a matter of loyalty. Magnus told his Legion to cut out the parlor tricks and then himself proceeded to cast a spell that destabilized the wards of the Palace itself. If you think he did it just "to save the Imperium" then you have totally misunderstood the character. He was proving a point to daddy. Yes, he claimed that this egregious example of trafficking with Tzeentch -- and that's what it was, whether or not Magnus was too arrogantly blind to notice -- would save the Emperor. But it was "just as planned" and moved the Heresy along very nicely as far as Horus and the Ruinous Powers were concerned. Magnus played his role perfectly from the beginning. What was the price for stabilizing his Legion? -- that eventually he would send the psychic message to Terra, distract Russ and the Wolves, undermine the palace defense, and ultimately knowingly kneel to Tzeentch.

When faced with accepting the fate he had called down upon himself and finally obeying the Emperor, even if it meant his death

-OR-

declaring openly that he was a traitor (he had been one all along; now it was just a matter of admitting it) who was badly treated by an ungrateful father

... Magnus chose the latter. He did no "sacrifice himself." He saved himself. He did not do what was best for his father or for mankind. He joined the fight to destroy his father and subjugate mankind to the deprivations of the Ruinous Powers.

He may have been proving a point on some level, but he had no idea what the Emperor was doing. Look at it from his perspective. Horus is a traitor who is about to attempt to destroy the Imperium. The only way I can warn the Emperor is to use the powers he banned under pressure from my superstitious and hypocritical brothers. Which is the lesser of two evils in this situation, I wonder?

If you think that Magnus moved against the Imperium willingly, I don't think there's much I can say to convince you otherwise. He tried to warn the Emperor, then the next contact he had from the Imperium was the Space Wolves trying to annihilate his planet. It's understandable that he's bitter about it.

Durza wrote:
He may have been proving a point on some level, but he had no idea what the Emperor was doing. Look at it from his perspective. Horus is a traitor who is about to attempt to destroy the Imperium. The only way I can warn the Emperor is to use the powers he banned under pressure from my superstitious and hypocritical brothers. Which is the lesser of two evils in this situation, I wonder?

It wasn't the only way. Ahriman offered him another option at least.

Magnus chose his way anyway.

Considering Ahriman, who's to say it wouldn't have turned out worse?

In this case, we can presume guilt. If you are too arrogant to understand that what you're doing is wrong, it does not make you less culpable for your wrong-doing. Like I said, all the more praise to Leman Russ for figuring out what was going on without having even close to all the pieces.

Because to the Wolf King, it didn't pass the "smell" test.

iproxtaco wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:I think there's a bit of "the end is the beginning is the end" nonlinear time type stuff happening here. When Magnus sacrifices his eye it's implied that he doesn't sacrifice his eye "from now on" but sacrifices ever having an eye (nobody notices its gone all of a sudden). His decisions are "extra-temporal" in a sense. The flesh change may actually be the result of Magnus' ultimate decision to go to Tzeentch which in turn is its cause (or maybe it's the Rubric which "causes" everything?). They are called the Thousand Sons at their founding because only a thousand of them are left at their end. And their symbol is the ouroboros.

Sounds interesting. Although I know they were called the Thousand Sons because they numbered only 1000 when Magnus first joined his Legion. The rest had succumbed to the Flesh Change and put in stasis.

That's what Magnus (or was it Ahriman?) thinks before the sacking of Prospero.

biccat wrote:

Manchu wrote:The Emperor made it perfectly clear that the edict at Nikaea was of the gravest importance, a matter of loyalty. Magnus told his Legion to cut out the parlor tricks and then himself proceeded to cast a spell that destabilized the wards of the Palace itself.

Well, you're ignoring the "Horus is turning against the Emperor" impetus for Magnus casting the spell in the first place. I could also make the point that in casting that spell he inadvertently destroyed the manacles that were intended to enslave him to the Golden Throne. Remember, the Emperor had a plan for Magnus, and it wasn't at all a very nice plan.

The ultimate problem with the Space Wolves enforcing the edict of Nicaea is twofold:

- The Emperor didn't order the destruction of the Thousand Sons, it was Horus. This leads to the obvious (to me) implication that Russ was being used by Horus, either negligently or willfully, to eliminate one of the biggest threats to his coup.

- Second, the Space Wolves had themselves never intended to follow the edict and proudly violated both the letter and spirit of it. They rightfully saw the outcome of Nicaea as "sanction Magnus," not to prohibit the use of psykers.

Your above two points are in contention because of the following;

-Older fluff has established that Russ was present when Magnus breached the palace with his psychic message. In one case it is said the Emperor ordered Russ to sanction the Thousand Sons and another is that Russ convinced the Emperor that the Thousand Sons needed to be sanctioned.

-The Council of Nikea is commonly referred to as, "The Trial of Magnus the Red". People tend to gloss over exactly what was decreed by the Emperor and then try to extend it to the rune priests. Read what was decreed; librarians and the librariums were to be shut down because they were a direct link to Magnus' teaching and founding. Rune priests were never librarians, the Space Wolves never had librariums. The rune priests never had a link to Magnus' teaching or founding.

Brother Ramses wrote:

biccat wrote:

Manchu wrote:The Emperor made it perfectly clear that the edict at Nikaea was of the gravest importance, a matter of loyalty. Magnus told his Legion to cut out the parlor tricks and then himself proceeded to cast a spell that destabilized the wards of the Palace itself.

Well, you're ignoring the "Horus is turning against the Emperor" impetus for Magnus casting the spell in the first place. I could also make the point that in casting that spell he inadvertently destroyed the manacles that were intended to enslave him to the Golden Throne. Remember, the Emperor had a plan for Magnus, and it wasn't at all a very nice plan.

The ultimate problem with the Space Wolves enforcing the edict of Nicaea is twofold:

- The Emperor didn't order the destruction of the Thousand Sons, it was Horus. This leads to the obvious (to me) implication that Russ was being used by Horus, either negligently or willfully, to eliminate one of the biggest threats to his coup.

- Second, the Space Wolves had themselves never intended to follow the edict and proudly violated both the letter and spirit of it. They rightfully saw the outcome of Nicaea as "sanction Magnus," not to prohibit the use of psykers.

Your above two points are in contention because of the following;

-Older fluff has established that Russ was present when Magnus breached the palace with his psychic message. In one case it is said the Emperor ordered Russ to sanction the Thousand Sons and another is that Russ convinced the Emperor that the Thousand Sons needed to be sanctioned.

That's not in contention with his point, really. It's well known that Horus manipulated Russ in some way.

-The emperor initially sent Russ out to bring Magnus back to Terra to answer for his crimes.

-Then Horus the Warmaster contacted him again during his journey to Prospero and told him the Emperor wanted him to kill Magnus.

-In Prospero burns we have Russ trying to convey a message to Magnus that he can still give up and surrender forcing Russ to not have to kill him.

Brother Ramses wrote:Your above two points are in contention because of the following;

-Older fluff has established that Russ was present when Magnus breached the palace with his psychic message. In one case it is said the Emperor ordered Russ to sanction the Thousand Sons and another is that Russ convinced the Emperor that the Thousand Sons needed to be sanctioned.

Older fluff does indeed dictate that the Emperor was convinced by Russ to order the Sons' destruction. New fluff however overrides old fluff.

-The Council of Nikea is commonly referred to as, "The Trial of Magnus the Red". People tend to gloss over exactly what was decreed by the Emperor and then try to extend it to the rune priests. Read what was decreed; librarians and the librariums were to be shut down because they were a direct link to Magnus' teaching and founding. Rune priests were never librarians, the Space Wolves never had librariums. The rune priests never had a link to Magnus' teaching or founding.

The Emperor made it clear that, though technically only the Librarians were being shut down, he thought that psychic powers in general should not be allowed in the Legions, and said he never should have revealed the contents of the Warp to anyone. The Rune Priests unknowingly exploited a loophole and were allowable on a technicality.

If the Emperor only thought Magnus' link to the Librarians was the problem, he could have easily revised the training of the Librarians to limit Magnus' influence.

And really, the Librarians of other Legions didn't use outright sorcery. I don't recall Zahariel from the Dark Angels books making any Daemonic pacts... I mean, except at the end, when he really started using sorcery. But before that he did not.

Manchu wrote: But the Space Wolves had a good reason to trust themselves: seemingly, they were made by the Emperor to take out other Legions in the event of rebellion.

That doesn't really make any damn sense, though. They had the backup of the Custodes, were facing the smallest Legion with the ultimate trump card of the Sisters of Silence, and were given absolutely every possible advantage Magnus could think of, and they still had a tough go of it until the Thousand Sons' heads started exploding.

What if one of the other Legions decided to misbehave? What the hell could the Wolves do against the Dark Angels or Ultramarines, for example? Even if 1 Space Wolf = 2 of any other Astartes, they would still be way outnumbered.

To answer all the debates above, about whether Magnus would have liked his role on the Throne, whether he actually delivered his warning, what finally broke him, and whether he sacrificed himself:

He had tried to deliver his warning, showing his father what he had seen and what he knew. It hadn't mattered. Nothing he could have said would have outweighed or undone the colossal mistakehe had made in coming to Terra. The treachery of Horus was swept away, an afterthought in thewake of the destruction Magnus had unwittingly unleashed. Wards that had kept the palace safe for a hundred years were obliterated in an instant, and the psychic shockwave killed thousands and drove hundreds more to madness and suicide. But that wasn't the worst of it, not by a long way.

It was the knowledge that he had been wrong. Everything he had been so sure of knowing better than anyone else was a lie. He thought he had known better than his father how to wield the power of the Great Ocean. He believed he was its master, but in the ruins of his father's great work, he had seen the truth. The Golden Throne was the key. Unearthed from forgotten ruins sunken deep beneath the driest desert, it was the lodestone that would have unlocked the secrets of the alien lattice. Now it was in ruins, its impossibly complex dimensional inhibitors and warp buffers fused beyond salvage.

The control it maintained on the shimmering gateway at his back was ended, and the artfully designed mechanism keeping the two worlds apart was fatally fractured. In the instant of connection, Magnus saw the folly of his actions and wept to see so perfect a concept undone. Unspoken understanding flowed between Magnus and the Emperor. Everything Magnus had done was laid bare, and everything the Emperor planned flowed into him. He saw himself atop the Golden Throne, using his fearsome powers to guide humanity to its destiny as rulers of the galaxy. He was to be his father's chosen instrument of ultimate victory. It broke him to know that his unthinking hubris had shattered that dream.

And later, after Magnus had had enough of witnessing the Wolves' rampage, and finally decided to come out of his tower:

His eye locked onto Ahriman, and the depths of despair he saw in that haunted, glowing orb froze the blood in his veins. In that moment, Ahriman felt the horror Magnus had felt as his sons mutated into monsters and the anguish, centuries later, as he watched them butchered to serve a brothers lunatic ambition. He understood the noble ideal that had stayed the primarch's hand throughout the battle, recognising it for what it was, not for what he had thought it to be. He felt his father's forgiveness for doubting him, and heard his voice in his head.

"This doom was always meant for me, not you," said Magnus, and Ahriman knew that every warrior of the Thousand Sons was hearing the same thing. "You are my sons, and I have failed you."

Later, as the battle between Russ and Magnus neared its conclusion:

With the last of his strength, Magnus turned his head, and his ravaged eye found Ahriman.

This is my last gift to you.

Leman Russ blade swept down, but before its lethal edge struck, Magnus whispered unnatural syllables unknown to Man since he had first raised his guttural chants to the nameless gods of the sky. Magnus body underwent an instantaneous dissolution, its entire structure unmade with a word,and Ahriman gasped as vast and depthless power surged into his body. ... the power in him spread to the entire Legion as Magnus gave the last of his strength to save his sons.

And later still:

[Ahrimah's inner thoughts:] Magnus broods in his black tower, peering into the depths of the Great Ocean for validation, a sign that he was right to act as he did. He will find nothing, for there is nothing to find. His actions were never his own, for he forgot the first rule of the mysteries. He let his ambition and hubris blind him to his flaws and the knowledge that there is always someone stronger and more powerful out there.

He delivered his warning, it's just compared to the magnitude of what he had wrought, neither he nor the Emperor much cared anymore. He would have gladly sat on the Throne, as it would be accomplishing everything he argued for at Nikaea. What broke his spirit was the knowledge that he was wrong. It drove him to kill one of his own captains, and leave his planet defenseless, fully intent on receiving the punishment he felt was his due. He could have easily saved his world, but when he finally saw the trap he had fallen in, he decided to sacrifice himself and his world because the Wolves, for all their ignorance and brutishness, would be needed in the coming battles. But after witnessing the Wolves' mindless rampage, and faced with the final prospect of the utter destruction of the Legion he had given so much to save, his sons who were completely innocent and non-complicit in his crimes, he couldn't hold back anymore and gave his life to save them. Of course, Tzeench had different plans in mind.

So yes, he was arrogant, yes, he was wrong, yes, he made a colossal and irrevocable mistake. But to try to say that his actions weren't always well-intentioned and to call him a willful-traitor bespeaks of extremely poor judgement of character and/or utter failure at reading comprehension. You know what they say about the road to hell and what it's paved with. His arrogance is no greater a flaw than the Wolves' superstition, and at least he was man enough to admit it (unlike Russ in Prospero Burns). And of course, all of it could have been avoided if the Emperor was a tad more open with his sons.

In conclusion, the saga of the Thousand Sons and their Primarch is the absolute pinnacle of 40K fiction. Also, Space Wolves are stupid dicks.

Power of the runessss, f your heretical tricks

Russ Mandarin wrote:-The emperor initially sent Russ out to bring Magnus back to Terra to answer for his crimes.

Actually the Emperor sent Russ to bring Magnus back to Terra to sit on the Golden Throne. Of course after Magnus broke it, "sitting on the Golden Throne" was no longer a nice happy "guide mankind to its destiny" sort of thing but more a "suck you dry until your a shriveled corpse" sort of thing.

That makes no damn sense at all. Russ was dispatched after Magnus broke the Throne and caused all sorts of damage. He was ostensibly sent to bring Magnus back, but as Ahriman saw in Wyrdmake's mind, the Wolves were urged by Valdor and Horus to just destroy the place... which they were kind of glad to do anyway.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Russ Mandarin wrote:-The emperor initially sent Russ out to bring Magnus back to Terra to answer for his crimes.

Actually the Emperor sent Russ to bring Magnus back to Terra to sit on the Golden Throne. Of course after Magnus broke it, "sitting on the Golden Throne" was no longer a nice happy "guide mankind to its destiny" sort of thing but more a "suck you dry until your a shriveled corpse" sort of thing.

It didn't do Malcador any favors, but the Emperor was able to use the Golden Throne to keep the web gate closed without any obvious ill effects. It's likely that Magnus would have been able to handle the strain, or perhaps they could have combined their powers to put a more permanant seal on the gate, thus freeing up both Magnus and the Emperor to be able to head out and boot head during the siege of Terra.

This hypothesis that the Wolves are so full of awesomesauce that they're the Emperor's special Executioner legion is just goofy.
For starters, there's zero evidence that any single legion is straight up better than any other legion. Better in specific settings or with certain abilities, but not in every area.
Second, if the Emperor was so worried about a legion going bad that he did create an Executioner legion, then what exactly would prevent that legion from turning? And if he did some mojo to prevent that legion from turning, why not apply that change to other legions so as to prevent them from turning.
Third, even if the Executioner legion was so hard that they could out mangle any other astartes two to one, that still means that any battle against another legion would still be a meat grinder. Under ideal conditions, you'd still be looking at anywhere between five and twenty thousand dead Executioner astartes, depending on the size of the legion to be put down. Look at Prospero where the Wolves faced no orbital defenses, were able to make their initial landing relatively unharmed, showed up with specialized troops (Sisters of Silence) to counter the Sons' specific strength, did not have to deal with the opposing Primarch until the end of the battle, and even then they still took serious losses. Any legion designed to be used specifically against other astartes would be good for only one use, after that the loss of manpower would need decades, if not centuries to get back up to full manpower, and since the Wolves only recruit from Fenris (a low population world) that process would be very slow.
Fourth, if all that is needed for an Executioner legion is the ability to follow orders, no matter how twisted they are, and to do whatever it takes to complete said orders, then pretty much any legion would be able to do the job. Heck, the Ultramarines nuked a city from orbit just to teach Lorgar a lesson, that's pretty hard core right there, and it's not like any other legion seemed to have issues following orders (at least when it came to killing something). I know ADB wrote some pretty words about why the World Eaters and Night Lords wouldn't be right for the job (mostly had to do with attitude and visibility), but I think he missed one key point. Nobody is allowed to talk about what happened to the two other legions, at that point, it doesn't matter who does the deed, or even how they did it. All that matters is that the offending legion is dead. Nobody (other than some Primarchs) are going around talking about what happened to the two legions.

I know that old fluff has Russ on Terra when Magnus busted in, but that really makes no sense. Fenris isn't exactly close to Terra, so it's not like he just dropped by. Russ, and indeed all the Primarchs, are hands on, in the field type leaders, so again, why would he be on Terra?

What words were these that ADB wrote? I honestly interested, I've heard talk of this before. Everything else I wholeheartedly agree with though.

Over on B&C (can't find the thread) there was a discussion on the whole Executioner legion thing, and it was asked, why the Wolves, instead of World Eaters or Night Lords, since those are two pretty crazy and hard core legions. ADB put up two bits, one for each legion basically explaining why those two legions weren't a good fit for the job. Basically came down to attitude and method. Which, given the fact that nobody is allowed to talk about the two missing legions (why they're missing, how they went missing), isn't really that imporant.

One thing to note, is that after the council, the 1k Sons went back to Prospero and pretty much told the Emperor to pound sand up his cornhole. The decree was explicit about what would happen and Magnus still decided he knew better. That makes me think that while the original pact to save the Legion may have been done with the best of intentions and thus not be traitorous, however the continued actions after the council by Magnus would be completely traitorous.

I need to check my books, but did not Magnus have a vision at the council about Horus and that was why he had to hurry back to his home planet at the end? Why not just tell the Emperor then about his vision while at Nikea?

He had a vision yes, but he had no real idea what it meant until returning to Prospero. When he finally understood it was too late, Horus was already in the temple, there would have been no time, so, he tried to stop it, and failed. The only way to warn the Emperor in a speedy fashion was to use the Warp, but he obviously had a duel motive by doing it.

Brother Ramses wrote:One thing to note, is that after the council, the 1k Sons went back to Prospero and pretty much told the Emperor to pound sand up his cornhole. The decree was explicit about what would happen and Magnus still decided he knew better. That makes me think that while the original pact to save the Legion may have been done with the best of intentions and thus not be traitorous, however the continued actions after the council by Magnus would be completely traitorous.

I think you're conflating disobedient and traitorous. The people of Fenris are not even close to being in compliance regarding the Imperial Truth, but nobody goes around calling the Space Wolves traitors for keeping them that way. Guilliman spent a good chunk of the Heresy doing mock battles in order to research and test the codex (and not trying to rush to Terra to help the Emperor), but calling him a traitor is a bit of a stretch too. Even Lorgar's search for true gods wasn't necessarily traitorous, at least until he threw his lot in with them. Though if his plan was to search for gods and if he found them throw his lot in with them, even the search for them would be a tratorous act.

daveNYC wrote:
It didn't do Malcador any favors, but the Emperor was able to use the Golden Throne to keep the web gate closed without any obvious ill effects. It's likely that Magnus would have been able to handle the strain, or perhaps they could have combined their powers to put a more permanant seal on the gate, thus freeing up both Magnus and the Emperor to be able to head out and boot head during the siege of Terra.

This hypothesis that the Wolves are so full of awesomesauce that they're the Emperor's special Executioner legion is just goofy.
For starters, there's zero evidence that any single legion is straight up better than any other legion. Better in specific settings or with certain abilities, but not in every area.
Second, if the Emperor was so worried about a legion going bad that he did create an Executioner legion, then what exactly would prevent that legion from turning? And if he did some mojo to prevent that legion from turning, why not apply that change to other legions so as to prevent them from turning.
Third, even if the Executioner legion was so hard that they could out mangle any other astartes two to one, that still means that any battle against another legion would still be a meat grinder. Under ideal conditions, you'd still be looking at anywhere between five and twenty thousand dead Executioner astartes, depending on the size of the legion to be put down. Look at Prospero where the Wolves faced no orbital defenses, were able to make their initial landing relatively unharmed, showed up with specialized troops (Sisters of Silence) to counter the Sons' specific strength, did not have to deal with the opposing Primarch until the end of the battle, and even then they still took serious losses. Any legion designed to be used specifically against other astartes would be good for only one use, after that the loss of manpower would need decades, if not centuries to get back up to full manpower, and since the Wolves only recruit from Fenris (a low population world) that process would be very slow.
Fourth, if all that is needed for an Executioner legion is the ability to follow orders, no matter how twisted they are, and to do whatever it takes to complete said orders, then pretty much any legion would be able to do the job. Heck, the Ultramarines nuked a city from orbit just to teach Lorgar a lesson, that's pretty hard core right there, and it's not like any other legion seemed to have issues following orders (at least when it came to killing something). I know ADB wrote some pretty words about why the World Eaters and Night Lords wouldn't be right for the job (mostly had to do with attitude and visibility), but I think he missed one key point. Nobody is allowed to talk about what happened to the two other legions, at that point, it doesn't matter who does the deed, or even how they did it. All that matters is that the offending legion is dead. Nobody (other than some Primarchs) are going around talking about what happened to the two legions.

But...but...they're special snowflakes...they don't need your logic, they're that awesome.

Actually, there is evidence that one legion is better than the others... if you listen to Matt Ward.

Brother Ramses wrote:One thing to note, is that after the council, the 1k Sons went back to Prospero and pretty much told the Emperor to pound sand up his cornhole. The decree was explicit about what would happen and Magnus still decided he knew better. That makes me think that while the original pact to save the Legion may have been done with the best of intentions and thus not be traitorous, however the continued actions after the council by Magnus would be completely traitorous.

I need to check my books, but did not Magnus have a vision at the council about Horus and that was why he had to hurry back to his home planet at the end? Why not just tell the Emperor then about his vision while at Nikea?

You should indeed check your books, because you are 100% wrong on every single count.

Magnus explicitly ordered his Legion to obey the Emperor's decree. Even he abstained from using his powers, except until after they had returned to Prospero and he had his captains do a bunch of research to confirm the daemon's warning/taunts about Horus. The ritual he undertook to try and save Horus was the first time any of the Thousand Sons were involved in something actually resembling sorcery, since a number of them spoke out against it, saying it "smacks of unclean spirit worship". When that attempt failed, Ahriman likewise argued against the spell Magnus used to travel to Terra.

As for why he just didn't tell the Emperor at Nikea, there were several reasons:

1. The Emperor is not the most approachable guy.
2. The Emperor had already departed.
3. Magnus didn't have a vision, so much as a visitation from the Warp, and he didn't quite trust what he heard until he did his own research into the matter.
4. Magnus and his Legion were just publicly chastised for their psychic powers, making it not quite an ideal time to fly up to the Emperor's barge and tell him a daemon just told you his favorite son was going to turn traitor.

As Magnus said, "“What would you have me tell him? That his best and brightest son will betray him? Without proof, he would never believe it. He would send his war dogs to bring us to heel for employing the very means that have allowed us to know of this betrayal! No, there is only one option open to us. We must save Horus ourselves. Only if we fail do we take word to the Emperor.”

Omegus wrote:

daveNYC wrote:
It didn't do Malcador any favors, but the Emperor was able to use the Golden Throne to keep the web gate closed without any obvious ill effects. It's likely that Magnus would have been able to handle the strain, or perhaps they could have combined their powers to put a more permanant seal on the gate, thus freeing up both Magnus and the Emperor to be able to head out and boot head during the siege of Terra.

This hypothesis that the Wolves are so full of awesomesauce that they're the Emperor's special Executioner legion is just goofy.
For starters, there's zero evidence that any single legion is straight up better than any other legion. Better in specific settings or with certain abilities, but not in every area.
Second, if the Emperor was so worried about a legion going bad that he did create an Executioner legion, then what exactly would prevent that legion from turning? And if he did some mojo to prevent that legion from turning, why not apply that change to other legions so as to prevent them from turning.
Third, even if the Executioner legion was so hard that they could out mangle any other astartes two to one, that still means that any battle against another legion would still be a meat grinder. Under ideal conditions, you'd still be looking at anywhere between five and twenty thousand dead Executioner astartes, depending on the size of the legion to be put down. Look at Prospero where the Wolves faced no orbital defenses, were able to make their initial landing relatively unharmed, showed up with specialized troops (Sisters of Silence) to counter the Sons' specific strength, did not have to deal with the opposing Primarch until the end of the battle, and even then they still took serious losses. Any legion designed to be used specifically against other astartes would be good for only one use, after that the loss of manpower would need decades, if not centuries to get back up to full manpower, and since the Wolves only recruit from Fenris (a low population world) that process would be very slow.
Fourth, if all that is needed for an Executioner legion is the ability to follow orders, no matter how twisted they are, and to do whatever it takes to complete said orders, then pretty much any legion would be able to do the job. Heck, the Ultramarines nuked a city from orbit just to teach Lorgar a lesson, that's pretty hard core right there, and it's not like any other legion seemed to have issues following orders (at least when it came to killing something). I know ADB wrote some pretty words about why the World Eaters and Night Lords wouldn't be right for the job (mostly had to do with attitude and visibility), but I think he missed one key point. Nobody is allowed to talk about what happened to the two other legions, at that point, it doesn't matter who does the deed, or even how they did it. All that matters is that the offending legion is dead. Nobody (other than some Primarchs) are going around talking about what happened to the two legions.

But...but...they're special snowflakes...they don't need your logic, they're that awesome.

Eh, I might even be OK with having them being Executioners, if, and it's a big if, there were actually some sort of downside that came along with it (and Russ being emo about having such a heavy burden to bear does NOT count). The problem I have with the current state of Space Wolf fluff (combined 30k and 40k) and crunch is that not only do they not have any weaknesses (lets face it, most Space Marine legions started out as borderline Mary Sues), but elements of fluff that should be weaknesses actually end up turning into strengths in either fluff or crunch.

Omegus wrote:The ritual he undertook to try and save Horus was the first time any of the Thousand Sons were involved in something actually resembling sorcery,

Does Magnus' pact with Tzeentch and every Thousand Son having a daemonic familiar not count for sorcery?

Omegus wrote:
As for why he just didn't tell the Emperor at Nikea, there were several reasons:

1. The Emperor is not the most approachable guy.
2. The Emperor had already departed.
3. Magnus didn't have a vision, so much as a visitation from the Warp, and he didn't quite trust what he heard until he did his own research into the matter.
4. Magnus and his Legion were just publicly chastised for their psychic powers, making it not quite an ideal time to fly up to the Emperor's barge and tell him a daemon just told you his favorite son was going to turn traitor.

5. Like the Emperor, in his mind, Magnus is always 100% right about everything and never has the potential for mistake.

Actually your #5 would be supportive of Magnus chasing after the Emperor right there and then. If Magnus thinks he's 100% right, then the next logical step would be to go to the Emperor. If Magnus having doubts about the accuracy of the vision would better explain taking some time on Prospero to sort things out.

Was it every Son that had a tutelary? Thought those were limited to those who passed some level of power.

I was talking about the Legion, not Magnus, he's been doing whatever the hell he wanted in the Warp since he was a child.

Only a few of the highest-ranking members of the Thousand Sons had familiars, which is really no more sorcerous or heretical than the fetishes Space Wolves festoon themselves with or the spirit bonds they form with various animals and quasi-animals.

Omegus wrote:
Only a few of the highest-ranking members of the Thousand Sons had familiars, which is really no more sorcerous or heretical than the fetishes Space Wolves festoon themselves with or the spirit bonds they form with various animals and quasi-animals.

The familiars were daemons. This makes it 100% more sorcerous than anything the Wolves had.

Useage of Tutelaries is indeed sorcery.

However only the very highest ranking members of the Thousand Sons ever used them. Notably, Magnus doesn't seem to have one. Unless Tzeentch counts as his Tutelary. Beyond that, they recognised that there were limits, Tutelaries being the most (Maybe only) sorcerous practice of the TS, and Ahriman and others note being uncomfortable with the ritualistic nature of what they were doing when projecting Magnus' Warp Presence to Horus and then to Terra, noting it to be similar to some of the Warp Witches they have hunted.

As for Space Wolves being the Emperor's Executioners... Come on, that is kind of stupid. The notion that they could theoretically execute the Ultramarine Legion if they went traitor is preposterous, Guilliman is a better general than Russ, and the Ultramarines massively outnumber the Space Wolves, who IIRC were a pretty small Legion, having only about 13,000 Astartes.

Void__Dragon wrote:
As for Space Wolves being the Emperor's Executioners... Come on, that is kind of stupid. The notion that they could theoretically execute the Ultramarine Legion if they went traitor is preposterous, Guilliman is a better general than Russ, and the Ultramarines massively outnumber the Space Wolves, who IIRC were a pretty small Legion, having only about 13,000 Astartes.

It's incredibly stupid.

nu-uh! ur all just jelus cuz your not as awesome!!1!!1

I can appreciate what you're trying to say here, but can we not go down this particular posting style please. Thanks.

Omegus wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:One thing to note, is that after the council, the 1k Sons went back to Prospero and pretty much told the Emperor to pound sand up his cornhole. The decree was explicit about what would happen and Magnus still decided he knew better. That makes me think that while the original pact to save the Legion may have been done with the best of intentions and thus not be traitorous, however the continued actions after the council by Magnus would be completely traitorous.

I need to check my books, but did not Magnus have a vision at the council about Horus and that was why he had to hurry back to his home planet at the end? Why not just tell the Emperor then about his vision while at Nikea?

You should indeed check your books, because you are 100% wrong on every single count.

Magnus explicitly ordered his Legion to obey the Emperor's decree. Even he abstained from using his powers, except until after they had returned to Prospero and he had his captains do a bunch of research to confirm the daemon's warning/taunts about Horus. The ritual he undertook to try and save Horus was the first time any of the Thousand Sons were involved in something actually resembling sorcery, since a number of them spoke out against it, saying it "smacks of unclean spirit worship". When that attempt failed, Ahriman likewise argued against the spell Magnus used to travel to Terra.

As for why he just didn't tell the Emperor at Nikea, there were several reasons:

1. The Emperor is not the most approachable guy.
2. The Emperor had already departed.
3. Magnus didn't have a vision, so much as a visitation from the Warp, and he didn't quite trust what he heard until he did his own research into the matter.
4. Magnus and his Legion were just publicly chastised for their psychic powers, making it not quite an ideal time to fly up to the Emperor's barge and tell him a daemon just told you his favorite son was going to turn traitor.

As Magnus said, "“What would you have me tell him? That his best and brightest son will betray him? Without proof, he would never believe it. He would send his war dogs to bring us to heel for employing the very means that have allowed us to know of this betrayal! No, there is only one option open to us. We must save Horus ourselves. Only if we fail do we take word to the Emperor.”

As always, I needed to actually go to the books and once again your pro-anything against the SW needs to be pointed out.

Magnus did not explicitly tell his Legion to stop. The conversation between Lemuel and Mahavastu starting with Book 3: Propero's Lament, shows that the remembrancers training by the Thousand Sons had become even more intensive. Mahavastu remarks that despite the edict that the Thousand Sons were still pursuing their esoteric learnings and that Lemuel's instruction was against the Emperor's edict. He closes by saying that the Legion is doomed if they continue down their path of defiance. Later on there is another conversation stating that Magnus has the Thousand Son's researching in the cult libraries to project a body of light farther then ever before.

It is clear that the Thousand Sons never followed the edict set by the Emperor.

Now as for your other points,

1. During the edict, the Emperor is conversing directly to Magnus and Magnus answers that he is master of the knowledge. He could have easily had told him what he saw, but instead is still defending his vision for humanity.
2. Magnus had his vision before the judgement. The Emperor had NOT already left Nikiea. In fact point number 1 happens after the vision.
3. He had a vision or visitation by the warp. He could have easily relayed that, but then it would have revealed to the Emperor how far he had already delved into sorcery thus completely wrecking his previously stated case of innocence to the assembly and the Emperor.
4. See above. Also, Magnus left Nikea knowing exactly what was going to happen but instead of telling ANYONE, he chose to vindicate himself and his Legion via getting proof by using the exact things they had been banned from using. If anything he could have told his father and the Emperor himself could have seen if Magnus was telling the truth and investigated it with Magnus.

Seriously, I knew I had read and was just waiting for the time to pull my books out of storage and give them a re-read to write this post. Stop spreading misinformation whenever it comes to the SW/TS topic.

"“What would you have me tell him? That his best and brightest son will betray him? Without proof, he would never believe it. He would send his war dogs to bring us to heel for employing the very means that have allowed us to know of this betrayal! No, there is only one option open to us. We must save Horus ourselves. Only if we fail do we take word to the Emperor.”

That pretty much explains it. Telling in Emperor that he had just had a blurry visitation that told him of a possible future that he still had little idea what it meant wasn't really an option open to Magnus. There was a dual motive for using sorcery to tell the Emperor, but the Thousand Sons did it out of loyalty.

iproxtaco wrote:"“What would you have me tell him? That his best and brightest son will betray him? Without proof, he would never believe it. He would send his war dogs to bring us to heel for employing the very means that have allowed us to know of this betrayal! No, there is only one option open to us. We must save Horus ourselves. Only if we fail do we take word to the Emperor.”

That pretty much explains it. Telling in Emperor that he had just had a blurry visitation that told him of a possible future that he still had little idea what it meant wasn't really an option open to Magnus. There was a dual motive for using sorcery to tell the Emperor, but the Thousand Sons did it out of loyalty.

So it was a "blurry" enough vision to NOT tell his father but solid enough to proceed to defy the edict set by the Emperor that would damn the Legion?

It was an option. One that he could have told his father and then if not believed he could have chosen to pursue his proof. As I said, he couldn't tell his father because it would have completely revealed the depths of how far Magnus had already delved into sorcery and completely destoryed his previously issued eloquent defense speech.

Well yes, exactly. He had a vague vision with no proof to back this up. Given the circumstances he wouldn't want to land himself in more trouble.

Magnus argued that sorcery should be employed to help humanity, not that he didn't use it. In fact, considering this turned out to be true it would have only strengthened his case. But again, he had no proof and would likely have been punished for even suggesting such a thing could be true, and because of how he discovered it, meaning there was a good chance he wouldn't have been able to return to Prospero and attempt to stop Horus from falling.