I have very recently got back in to WH40K after a long, long break – 2nd edition was the last I played, god knows when, must be nearly 15 years ago. At that time I simply didn't have the cash to really build up much of an army, generally borrowing armies from my mate who worked at GW. It was largely the lack of money issue that saw me drift towards Blood Bowl... Well, that and the general awesomeness of Blood Bowl. This is also why I suspect games like Necromuna/Blood Bowl/Gorkamorka don't stick in the GW stores for so long.

Anyway, fast forward to now and after playing that bloody Space Marine PC game then discovering the Horus Hersey series of books, I got well and truly sacked back in, and $800 + (at a guess, too scared to actually tally it all up) later....... well, you all know how it goes.

It was not surprising in the least to see that the prices had risen sharply since I last played, but what WAS surprising was the amount of children in the GW stores I was in. After picking up a few things and checking the prices, my GF could not believe the numerous kids swarming through the entire store could actually afford to buy these products. She even said so to the store owner, which prompted a pretty funny conversation actually - I sorta feel for GW staff as you can see this is a touchy subject that they aren't comfortable with, and they have to toe the company line.

I have a lot of different 'hobbies' ranging over a pretty varied collection of interests, and the startup fees for GW blow them all out of the water. It amazes me that children can afford this as a hobby. $800+ and all I've got is half an army and enough paints for me to almost get by.

I'm not complaining about prices as I knew the prices going in. At this stage of my life I have the income to pickup a few (...or more) pieces each month and paint at my leisure, but man, if I were a parent and my kid asked me for $180 to go buy a game, and then a day later for another $150 to buy paint, I'd be thinking my kid had himself a drug addiction, or I'd grab him a PS3 and a handful of games and hope that the crazy passes.

I imagine GW are making a substantial amount of cash off their license to THQ and would still be drawing in a good deal of dosh each month from suckers like me and most of you, but are they doing themselves long-term damage by pricing themselves out of reach of the people who develop into the older geeks who actually can afford to bankroll their wargamming or painting addictions?

.

I'm not sure, I know as a new player myself, and playing IG (also known as "Money pit, the codex") and I had to get very creative to keep from breaking the bank. Buying models secondhand, buying battleforces (IG's one isn't that bad, saves you a good chunk of cash) as well as converting mini's from 3rd party manufacturers.

I'm lucky in that our FLGS doesn't care what brand you use, as long as its WYSIWYG and they look cool. I can't imagine what people are doing to get cash for buying new 100% GW to play in GW stores

I know exactly what you are talking about. I am currently 20 years old, and hold a part time job as well being a full time student: basically money doesn't come easy, and I'm forced to buy all of my warhammer second-hand through friends, craigslist, or ebay.

But it wasn't always that way: I got into warhammer when I was around 13 years old, and the way it worked (and still does) is that the parents provide money for these kids to go out and purchase models from GW or any other store. There are multiple reasons for this.

First, and this may seem a little extreme, if they spend time and money on a hobby, it will keep them out of trouble.

Second, parents don't nearly spend as much time with their children as they should, so they feel bad and give their kids money to sort of compensate for it.

And I just ran out of reasons. But when I was younger, my parents supported my hobby, and gave me money to buy it. From what I've seen, there is no shortage of young children interested in the hobby, because it just looks cool and that draws them in. And if you were a parent, would you rather have your children spending money buying, assembling, and painting miniatures or have them in an alley shooting up heroine? (again, rather extreme case)

raincity wrote:when I was a gws employee I was often shocked at how much parents would buy for their kids in our store, a lot of the time it wasn't even for anything special like a birthday.. But at the same time a lot of parents told me they were just happy to see their kids socializing and doing something outside of playing video games on their own.
There also were quite a few who when they discovered the price said it's too much. So I think things in australia at least will decline recruitment wise.

Yeah, Australia in particular is pretty awful - a quick check on amazon.com reveals that I can buy things at about half the price as I can locally in-store. So we get shafted just like with DVDs/video games/etc.

The social aspect is a good point though, and probably the best overall aspect of the hobby for young kids.


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zeke48 wrote:And I just ran out of reasons. But when I was younger, my parents supported my hobby, and gave me money to buy it.

Yah and that's probably the worst part of it. Kid with the richest parents wins. A cruel life lesson for kids.

Out of interest, what is the general consensus re: GW amongst the younger crowds at large I wonder. I know that when I was 13 or 14 and playing, it was considered very uncool and geeky, and was very much something that we all did incognito. Which is exactly how I'm approaching it at age 30 actually....

GW used to target the young male / late teen market, look at old White Dwarfs. But then they priced this group out and it's for kids with rich parents now. Buying GW as a student is pretty much a non-starter. At university you probably won't have the money to spend on their armies even if you work part time. That's pretty much why I stopped GW and have only picked up the occasional figure since. I wouldn't go back to army buying now even though we both have good full time jobs. GW stores are a crèche for kids with rich parents. That's why all their staff need CRB checks now.

They think of themselves as the Louis Viutton of the miniature industry.

Of course they keep their prices high, they want the stigma of being the best, even if their quality is falling.

Groundh0g wrote:I have very recently got back in to WH40K after a long, long break – 2nd edition was the last I played, god knows when, must be nearly 15 years ago. At that time I simply didn't have the cash to really build up much of an army, generally borrowing armies from my mate who worked at GW. It was largely the lack of money issue that saw me drift towards Blood Bowl... Well, that and the general awesomeness of Blood Bowl. This is also why I suspect games like Necromuna/Blood Bowl/Gorkamorka don't stick in the GW stores for so long.

Anyway, fast forward to now and after playing that bloody Space Marine PC game then discovering the Horus Hersey series of books, I got well and truly sacked back in, and $800 + (at a guess, too scared to actually tally it all up) later....... well, you all know how it goes.

It was not surprising in the least to see that the prices had risen sharply since I last played, but what WAS surprising was the amount of children in the GW stores I was in. After picking up a few things and checking the prices, my GF could not believe the numerous kids swarming through the entire store could actually afford to buy these products. She even said so to the store owner, which prompted a pretty funny conversation actually - I sorta feel for GW staff as you can see this is a touchy subject that they aren't comfortable with, and they have to toe the company line.

I have a lot of different 'hobbies' ranging over a pretty varied collection of interests, and the startup fees for GW blow them all out of the water. It amazes me that children can afford this as a hobby. $800+ and all I've got is half an army and enough paints for me to almost get by.

I'm not complaining about prices as I knew the prices going in. At this stage of my life I have the income to pickup a few (...or more) pieces each month and paint at my leisure, but man, if I were a parent and my kid asked me for $180 to go buy a game, and then a day later for another $150 to buy paint, I'd be thinking my kid had himself a drug addiction, or I'd grab him a PS3 and a handful of games and hope that the crazy passes.

I imagine GW are making a substantial amount of cash off their license to THQ and would still be drawing in a good deal of dosh each month from suckers like me and most of you, but are they doing themselves long-term damage by pricing themselves out of reach of the people who develop into the older geeks who actually can afford to bankroll their wargamming or painting addictions?

I'm sorry to say, but GW doesn't think that their games are for you (or for me for that matter).

GW has positioned itself to target the 12 - 15 year old market. At that age kids don't have a defined sense of money value and parents with disposable income will gladly shell out large amounts of money for their kids.

On the one hand it is allot of money, but equaly is it realy that expensive for allot of people compaird to other hobbys?

When a mid range PS3 bundle is pushing £250 and games are £40 dropping £100 on a battleforce, codex, tools and a paint set is not realy that much to allot of people, especaly as they will see it as a hobby that gets their kids out talking to people, doing maths and art rather than sat infront of a TV.

To some people it is allot of money. When I was young I played a little, but I coulden't afford very much, but if I had kids and they wanted to play I would be buying them stuff. I would have a rule the same as I do for myself, finish painting before buying something else, and not go crazy. It would sure as hell cost allot less than computor gaming, which I would not encourage.

I don't think it is that expensive a hobby, not compaird to some of the other thinks I do. A tank of fuel in my motorbike costs £15, never mind all the other costs. I can go through a tank on a quick evening rideout, 3-4 on a full day blast in summer.

Most hobbys can cost allot. It is expensive if your kid is one of the ones that wants everything NOW and then drops it after a few weeks, but if it is a hobby they have a real passion for then it's not that bad.

To be fair, being in Australia skews the experience for us. We pay more than double the price GW products. Hell, it's actually cheaper to buy the Forgeworld models and have them shipped from the UK than it is to buy at stores in Australia.

I only make a few small purchases from my local games store, and thats more of a donation than anything else as the owner is a personal friend and the store is the only place to game for 70kms in any direction. I would never buy from a GW retail store, and certainly not for any large purchase.

To be fair that's a result of fluctuating currencies and seems to be common to allot of products in Aus/NZ. :flames:

Back on topic, miniatures have always been rather expensive to those that cAnt really afford them ie children, the target audience of many products.

25 years ago it was 50p for a fantasy mini, a lead space marine was 60p or £1.50 for 3. At the time i sometimes got a pound a week, so I was lucky to be able to get anything. The rogue trader rule book was £15 and pretty much out of reach until my birthday! Seems pretty similar to some of the gripes you see nowadays.

I'm 35 now earn well and don't view GW products as particularly expensive of course after 25 years there not allot I need to get.

I dont think GW are THAT much more expensive are they?

I just started buying other models for the first time, and aside from Mantic, its like comparing Nike with Adidas.

PP is expensive, Scibor is expensive, GW is expensive.

Basically they know nerds will pay good money for their toys, so they charge accordingly. Makes sense to me.

mattyrm wrote: I dont think GW are THAT much more expensive are they?

I just started buying other models for the first time, and aside from Mantic, its like comparing Nike with Adidas.

PP is expensive, Scibor is expensive, GW is expensive.

Basically they know nerds will pay good money for their toys, so they charge accordingly. Makes sense to me.

Thats true. But there are other companies too. Mantic is fair pricing i think.

To a certain extent, GW call the tune and everyone follows - other companies keep their prices broadly in line with GW because they can see what the market will bear. It's similar to selling an item on Ebay and searching for it first to see what everyone else is selling theirs for before listing it - rather than price according to what you think, you price according to the market.

What makes an interesting comparison is not so much how GW compares to it's rivals in wargaming but rather how it compares to other companies within different facets of wargaming that GW has no direct analogue to. So for example, historical wargaming I think I am right in saying, is much, much cheaper than GW. This is partly because the market is smaller but also partly because GW do not compete in that arena. In some respects, wargaming as a whole has suffered due to GW prices because if they raise prices, may others will follow - it's basic market economy.

I think you give the GW marketing guys too little credit, I dont think they would be stupid enough to price out their core demographic.

This has allways been seen as an expensive hobby although I dont feel its really much more expensive than it was in the mid 90's

Alternatives to miniture wargaming such as video gaming are cheaper these days so perhaps is a factor.

Lepuke wrote:I think you give the GW marketing guys too little credit, I dont think they would be stupid enough to price out their core demographic.

This has allways been seen as an expensive hobby although I dont feel its really much more expensive than it was in the mid 90's

Alternatives to miniture wargaming such as video gaming are cheaper these days so perhaps is a factor.

You never know, they just gave away £5 million pounds in dividents because 'it was truly surplus cash and we didn't know where to spend it.'.

Really, can't think of anything to spend 5 million on? QC/QA for finecast ? But no 6% of that goes into Mr Kirbys retirement fund. I hope once he's gotten his Golden Handshake the shareholders sack Wells and the rest of the board.

GW will eventually become a plaything for the very rich, shortly before it suffers its inevitable crash and burn...

I once had a heated discussion with someone on this forum (who shall remain nameless) who claimed pricing was perfectly fair because the only people who should be allowed to play were the very rich - if you didn't fall into that bracket you clearly weren't working hard enough to deserve to have a hobby

The problem with this is that GW does not just lose custom (the last decades financial reports quite clearly show that GW's year-on-year sales volume is declining), it also loses advertising.

The best advert for wargaming is knowing someone who already games - after all I bet most if not all of the people here were introduced to the hobby by a friend/relative/colleague/etc. Fewer gamers means fewer people doing GW's advertising for them, which means fewer gamers, which me...you get the idea.

The only question is will GW realise this and if so when? They are comfortably the most expensive wargame out there (in terms of cost to play a standard game) as games with higher cost minis tend to need far fewer minis to play. They justify this by claiming to be a 'premium' brand, but their shoddy approach to rules writing, playtesting and balance issues, the lack of any coherent release strategy and the failcost debacle is showing this to be so much hot air.

Never mind, I'll still play with my mates but apart from the last 3 infantry I need for my Dark Eldar I'm sending my money in the direction of Mantic and Corvus Belli

Chimera_Calvin wrote:GW will eventually become a plaything for the very rich, shortly before it suffers its inevitable crash and burn...

It wont.

Were talking about miniature wargaming here, not fething Water Polo. All it means is that people will budget more, use ebay more, use wayland instead of GW shops.. proxy more, use other models a bit more, own one army instead of 7. Whatever.

I literally never spend more than about £200-300 a year on the hobby, and I only started collecting again after I left the military in 2009. After a few years Ive got literally gak loads of SM. At least 4000 points, your statement is ridiculous. I can understand your anger at GW's nasty price hikes, but lets keep ourselves in the realm of common sense eh?

Groundh0g wrote:$800+ and all I've got is half an army and enough paints for me to almost get by.

WTF? $800 for half an army?
(notices Australia flag)
I see.

Even so, $800 for only half an army seems high. Even one of the most expensive armies I can think of (Space Wolf Razorspam) shouldn't run more than $800, even in Australia. Are you playing Sisters of Battle perhaps?

mattyrm wrote:

Chimera_Calvin wrote:GW will eventually become a plaything for the very rich, shortly before it suffers its inevitable crash and burn...

It wont.

Were talking about miniature wargaming here, not fething Water Polo. All it means is that people will budget more, use ebay more, use wayland instead of GW shops.. proxy more, use other models a bit more, own one army instead of 7. Whatever.

I literally never spend more than about £200-300 a year on the hobby, and I only started collecting again after I left the military in 2009. After a few years Ive got literally gak loads of SM. At least 4000 points, your statement is ridiculous. I can understand your anger at GW's nasty price hikes, but lets keep ourselves in the realm of common sense eh?

You should try living down under and see what your can get for your £200, While i agree the chap you quoted was a totally over the top, i really do feel for fans of GW products that live in australia.
The prices GW charge in Australia really are horrendus, compared to the UK and the US, hell i even buy the stuff over here and mail it over for a few of my friends and even then, with the cost of recorded airmail factored in, they still make a massive saving.

if GW has a target market of 12-15 year olds, then im really pleased. When they lose interest / give up theres more models on the 2ndhand market for me to buy thanks GW!

Call me the devil's advocate but do we want young kids playing this hobby? I know some can be great but on the whole I tend to find the demographic irritating.

Plus it seems to me that kids simply represent a cash cow. Many (myself included), start the hobby, are too young to really understand it/paint our models well and quit either in frustration or out of boredom... many to never return again.

GW's policy is to hook kiddies in with an oblivious mother, flog off AoBR, a battleforce, a paintset, tools, etc. and expect to only see them a couple times more before they drop off from boredom. Short-sighted? Yes. Immoral? Yes. Profitable? Oh hell yes.

I think the mature gamer lends more to the hobby... and, well, licensing will get them in. I started again because of DoW 2. OP here started because of Space Marine: These are the means to get in the demographic that can actually afford the hobby, will stick around and hopefully lend to its overall health. We place too much stake in the young 'uns when we lament about how hard the hobby is for them: it just isn't for them. View them as an annoyance we all bare as part of GW's free daycare programme: they keep the company bankroll'd.

/rant


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Also with regard to price comparisons; take a look at Perry Miniatures: 28mm historical wargaming and a fraction of the price. I almost had a heart attack when I compared the cost of Napoleonic Line Infantry to, say, Guard.

^First, remember that there's a difference between the 'hobby' as a whole and the GW 'Hobby'.

As to 'young 'uns' joining the hobby - I'm 20. You're 18. Compared to the people who wargame and are in their 30's, 40's, and even 50's (the FoW guys at a nearby FLGS, for example, and who I plan to join in an upcoming escalation league), we're the kids. No amount of false self-perceived wisdom or knowledge (for all of us young 'uns!) will change that. The best thing us whippersnappers can do is keep our heads down until we're just as gnarled and callous as the rest of the ol' grognards. Then we can moan about the state of the hobby and how the children are ruining it.

But you're dead right when it comes to the GW Hobby and its target demographic. The goal is to lure in teenage boys with their own disposable income, or parents who'll spend the $300-$500 (or more!) to pick up an army. If they stay, then it's a bonus. If they leave, well, GW's already pocketed the money. And issued another dividend.

So whats with the unfair pricing in Australia anyway. What did some ausy steal Kirby's wife or something?

mattyrm wrote: I dont think GW are THAT much more expensive are they?

I just started buying other models for the first time, and aside from Mantic, its like comparing Nike with Adidas.

PP is expensive, Scibor is expensive, GW is expensive.

Basically they know nerds will pay good money for their toys, so they charge accordingly. Makes sense to me.

I dunno, I think to play GW stuff (the way they intend you to play) is far more expensive than any other game. Of the other 3 games I collect at the moment (Infinity, FoW, board games) I would say the price of those combined, and to play them in a standard way, is about the same amount as I spent on my last 40k army. I guess that's why there is a propensity of people on this forum to play either GW games or a bunch of other stuff, the expenditure on the former makes justifying any other kind of wargaming hobby difficult.

Eh, it's not actually all that bad. On a part time job when I was 14 through 16 managed to buy 2000 points of Uruk-Hai, 3000 points of Greenwing Dark Angels, 1000 points worth of Tau, 1500 points of Dwarves, 1000 points of Gobbos, 1000 points of Eldar, and 1500 points of Brettonians. In addition to that I bought two xbox's, about 30sih games, a new gaming computer and roughly 15 or so games for it as well.

It all really depends on what you spend your money on, I didn't do squat aside from play Warhammer/LotR and video games.

Emerett wrote:They think of themselves as the Louis Viutton of the miniature industry.
.

Irony being Louis Viutton is something of a Chav brand in the UK...

infinite_array wrote:^First, remember that there's a difference between the 'hobby' as a whole and the GW 'Hobby'.

As to 'young 'uns' joining the hobby - I'm 20. You're 18. Compared to the people who wargame and are in their 30's, 40's, and even 50's (the FoW guys at a nearby FLGS, for example, and who I plan to join in an upcoming escalation league), we're the kids. No amount of false self-perceived wisdom or knowledge (for all of us young 'uns!) will change that. The best thing us whippersnappers can do is keep our heads down until we're just as gnarled and callous as the rest of the ol' grognards. Then we can moan about the state of the hobby and how the children are ruining it.

But you're dead right when it comes to the GW Hobby and its target demographic. The goal is to lure in teenage boys with their own disposable income, or parents who'll spend the $300-$500 (or more!) to pick up an army. If they stay, then it's a bonus. If they leave, well, GW's already pocketed the money. And issued another dividend.

I'm 21 Where'd you get 18 from? I'm concerned that I've got out of date info somewhere...

We certainly are the kiddies, I didn't mean to imply that we're not the youthful end of the wargaming hobbyists: But we're not screaming kiddies either. I'd simply say that I'd advocate that we be the lower-end of any demographic. Though, perhaps there is some blatant self-interest in plain view there: Maybe when I hit 30 I'll insist *that* be the lower limit? Who knows - I'd say that at my University club we only have a couple of bad nuggets, though, so it seems that there's a much higher 'pleasure to play with' ratio than there is amongst the diaper-soiling generation.

But I take it your point is to imply that my words should be coming from a more cracked and weathered mouth eh? I've yet to gain the legitimacy of wisdom? :(


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As for other wargames: Infinity sure seems cheap, aye... but not exactly played on a wide scale.

FoW looks bloomin' expensive for what it is: And just as opportunistic for your wallet as GW. They use the 15mm scale 'cos it's rarer, imo, and thus the prices are artificially higher. That's why I (intend) to play Rapid Fire! at a 1:72 scale... Revell/Italeri are just so much cheaper.

If you play the game to try to keep up with the Joneses, it can be expensive.

Most of the dyed in the wool kool-aiders will tell you that Its worth it, and you are playing with the porche of wargames.... yadda yadda yadda....



BUT- It isn't as expensive as you really think it is. Secondhand markets are there for the taking, those so called "Kids" have short attention spans, and when they figure out that they are all not Mike McVey's, thier worlds come crashing down around them and Fee Bay fills up fast.

I play with second edition stuff, which people don't mind giving away, selling for small change, or even trading a whole collection for a box or two of the "New" stuff... ( which is exactly the same as the old, by the way.)

I have a RT army waiting on my desk that I was configuring into "New" army stats, and point levels, and found that I have twice as much as I needed for the purpose, at- half of the monitary amount, if at all, since I had the stuff from the very beginning.

Buy, Sell, Trade. GW doesn't need to be played with brand spanking new shiniers to be any more relevent.

Gorkamorka, and Necromunda work just as well with a squad of Guard Vs. A Few fire teams of Chaos, then it does by trying to overfill your cart.

Do this a couple of times, and you very quickly will have yourself an army. Few weeks, ( 1 month.) and you have room for a Tank Squadron. which can be made out of cardstock, scrap, and some tank parts. Or- secondhand, which then you strip down- ( Or paint from the awful grey stuff in the mail.)


So on one hand, YES.

The game is not for the weak willed, or tight budgeted.

But on the other hand, NO.

The game is easy to get into, if your smart, not sucked in with a bunch of B.S. and plan for what you want, set a budget and stick to it.

MY purchases were before GW went for your nuts, and were stockpiles within stockpiles. ( THATS why I have a couple of rooms worth of the stuff.)

I then use that to trade, or swap for the stuff that I'm looking for. ( THAT IS... when I'm looking for it.)

My interests revolve, anymore around Space Hulk, second edition, The Skirmish games, and other games when I don't need 2-500 guys out on the table, that are as easily picked up and thrown in a box as fast as I set them up for the opening move.


I don't buy GW from shops, anymore, so my wallet does the talking for me. Love you crazy kids and your Milf love that you throw away after a month, though....

Keep doing what your doing. You kids are making the game playable to the average gamer.

Thanks!

Grot 6 wrote:If you play the game to try to keep up with the Joneses, it can be expensive.

Most of the dyed in the wool kool-aiders will tell you that Its worth it, and you are playing with the porche of wargames.... yadda yadda yadda....



BUT- It isn't as expensive as you really think it is. Secondhand markets are there for the taking, those so called "Kids" have short attention spans, and when they figure out that they are all not Mike McVey's, thier worlds come crashing down around them and Fee Bay fills up fast.

I play with second edition stuff, which people don't mind giving away, selling for small change, or even trading a whole collection for a box or two of the "New" stuff... ( which is exactly the same as the old, by the way.)

I have a RT army waiting on my desk that I was configuring into "New" army stats, and point levels, and found that I have twice as much as I needed for the purpose, at- half of the monitary amount, if at all, since I had the stuff from the very beginning.

Buy, Sell, Trade. GW doesn't need to be played with brand spanking new shiniers to be any more relevent.

Gorkamorka, and Necromunda work just as well with a squad of Guard Vs. A Few fire teams of Chaos, then it does by trying to overfill your cart.

Do this a couple of times, and you very quickly will have yourself an army. Few weeks, ( 1 month.) and you have room for a Tank Squadron. which can be made out of cardstock, scrap, and some tank parts. Or- secondhand, which then you strip down- ( Or paint from the awful grey stuff in the mail.)


So on one hand, YES.

The game is not for the weak willed, or tight budgeted.

But on the other hand, NO.

The game is easy to get into, if your smart, not sucked in with a bunch of B.S. and plan for what you want, set a budget and stick to it.

MY purchases were before GW went for your nuts, and were stockpiles within stockpiles. ( THATS why I have a couple of rooms worth of the stuff.)

I then use that to trade, or swap for the stuff that I'm looking for. ( THAT IS... when I'm looking for it.)

My interests revolve, anymore around Space Hulk, second edition, The Skirmish games, and other games when I don't need 2-500 guys out on the table, that are as easily picked up and thrown in a box as fast as I set them up for the opening move.


I don't buy GW from shops, anymore, so my wallet does the talking for me. Love you crazy kids and your Milf love that you throw away after a month, though....

Keep doing what your doing. You kids are making the game playable to the average gamer.

Thanks!

(Warning, shameless self promotion):

I picked this 1/35 S35 Somua kit, up for £13 off of eBay BNIB kit... If I'd wanted to make it for Guard and not make it Orky, I'd have only needed to stick on a Battlecannon bit from a Leman Russ kit (found easily online) and my total price tag for this vehicle wouldn't have exceeded £15:


Guard armour doesn't need to be expensive

Henners91 wrote:Call me the devil's advocate but do we want young kids playing this hobby? I know some can be great but on the whole I tend to find the demographic irritating.

The feeling is mutual I'm sure. I would bet those kids wonder why a bunch of grumpy old creepers are hanging around in a store full of kids...

Henners91 wrote:
I'm 21 Where'd you get 18 from? I'm concerned that I've got out of date info somewhere...

Why, from your article page.

Which... was last updated in 2009.

Well, who's a better example than the person who put forth the idea in the first place, eh? Now, if you'll excuse me, there's a seemingly well worn dent in the wall that my forehead has to meet with.

As for FoW, there are plenty of other retailers who sell 15mm WWII (which isn't all that rare, I'd argue) at a much lower price than Battlefront. When you buy from Battlefront, your paying for at-least decent quality sculpts, and the convenience of getting everything you need to play for FoW. I've got a nice core of Battlefront figures myself, but my future purchases will be from Old Glory and PSC, it seems.

Any time we see a price topic from an Australian, we really shouldn't be suprised. AUS 40k Models are insanely over priced, and no one can really argue against that. GW Charges them an arm and a leg, and part of their soul to get things that are around half the price in the USA.

I dont see kids playing GW very much. In fact Im pretty sure Im the youngest guy who plays at my FLGS, and im 22. I think the next youngest is 25. So where do people get 13-15? Is my store just an oddity and the rest overran by kids?

The young market is where the future of the hobby is; I started playing when I was 12 and I'm still here at the age of 32.
I know many others who are the same- long term hobbyists who have been playing since they were older children.

I don't think the pricing to get started really prices many people out of the market. In the UK it's £100 to get started- a box game plus paint set and some black spray.
You've got 2 armies and a rulebook and paints to paint them.
You don't actually need anything else to be a part of the hobby- you spend more if you choose to.

Compare that to many other hobbies or even just console gaming and GW is pretty much a steal.

You do have a point there. Also, the minitures will out last the console.

Im the youngest person the wargames club I go to who actually wargames (the rest are into cards O.o ). Theres an age gap between me at 15 and the next youngest guy who wargames of about 10 years. I also wont touch GW with a bargepole thesedays. I uasully play Historical stuff these days, much cheaper

I have given up with GW completely. I have broken into Warmachine 100% as of a week ago. More bang for your buck in my opinion and you dont need a large amounts of models to field a legal army. I dont see any younger people around my area wargaming much at all its mostly MTG and Yugioh.

Lorizael wrote:The young market is where the future of the hobby is; I started playing when I was 12 and I'm still here at the age of 32.
I know many others who are the same- long term hobbyists who have been playing since they were older children.

I don't think the pricing to get started really prices many people out of the market. In the UK it's £100 to get started- a box game plus paint set and some black spray.
You've got 2 armies and a rulebook and paints to paint them.
You don't actually need anything else to be a part of the hobby- you spend more if you choose to.

Compare that to many other hobbies or even just console gaming and GW is pretty much a steal.

It's no good comparing it to other hobbies though, such a comparison can be taken to any extreme ("compared to mountainbiking GW is cheap, and I only get to ride at weekends" etc.) Compared to every other brand in the industry however, GW is by far the most expensive. It hasn't always been that way, and indeed I think for a lot of the 25+ players they came into the wargaming hobby (and got bitten by the 'bug') either with one of the specialist games, or boxed games which were considerably cheaper. There isn't that option for kids coming into the game these days, and it's inevitable that it will cut down on the amount of new blood coming into wargaming.

And, someone mentioned Porsche, so I feel obliged to post this pic just to get it out of the way..

There used to be 6 under 16s at my club.

None of them still play because it got too expensive and they'd rather spend the money on cards, consoles or their other hobbies (one had to choose between music and gaming and gaming lost).

It's only the growed-ups who play GW stuff around here, and a lot of them have switched or are switching to Infinity and/or WM/H. Mainly because those products don't see the same markup here as the GW products do (but they also don't have expensive storefront liabilties either).

Lorizael wrote:The young market is where the future of the hobby is; I started playing when I was 12 and I'm still here at the age of 32.
I know many others who are the same- long term hobbyists who have been playing since they were older children.

I don't think the pricing to get started really prices many people out of the market. In the UK it's £100 to get started- a box game plus paint set and some black spray.
You've got 2 armies and a rulebook and paints to paint them.
You don't actually need anything else to be a part of the hobby- you spend more if you choose to.

Compare that to many other hobbies or even just console gaming and GW is pretty much a steal.

Then compare it to the prices GW charge in Australia and it more than doubles to over £200 for the exact same stuff.

chromedog wrote:There used to be 6 under 16s at my club.

None of them still play because it got too expensive and they'd rather spend the money on cards, consoles or their other hobbies (one had to choose between music and gaming and gaming lost).

It's only the growed-ups who play GW stuff around here, and a lot of them have switched or are switching to Infinity and/or WM/H. Mainly because those products don't see the same markup here as the GW products do (but they also don't have expensive storefront liabilties either).

And the sad thing is, you cannot blame them eh, its not like they can just conjure the money up.

notprop wrote:To be fair that's a result of fluctuating currencies and seems to be common to allot of products in Aus/NZ. :flames:

Fluctuating shmuctuating. GW is boning us and you know it.

I started playing this game when I was 8 years old...

I mowed lawns, raked leaves, and shoveled snow to get enough money to buy more precious Imperial Guardsmen. I used to ride my bike five miles with my models underneath my arm to my local store. The thing was though, that the older players genuinely enjoyed me being there and playing with me. Maybe it was the fact that I knew more of the fluff and rules than most of them did, maybe it was that I had the attention to play a full days worth of games.

Anyways, it sometimes feels like I am supporting GW myself. Now adays, I work as a paid intern at a Fortune 500 company being paid 25 dollars an hour for 40 hour work weeks at age 18. Even with my university bills, student loans, car insurance, ect. I have spent almost 1000 dollars since christmas.

Am I one of those kids you are all talking about?

I started when I was 19.
It wasn't possible to start before that. 40k didn't exist. Fantasy did but only the D&D nerds played it (and it wasn't 'proper' wargaming). Not that 40k was when it came along, but the bunch of gamers I dragged along to the local club, who promptly joined up, got it accepted. Besides, 40k was more classic 70s SF back then.

All of my hobbying up until 2006 was self-financed (from my income). My parents paid for none of it. Not even gifts. I probably spent about $6-7k over all that time (1987-2011).

Most of my GW purchasing in the last 3 years has been through the 2nd hand market. Even cheaper than buying from OS - and stripping paint is easy.

My brother and I started when I was 8 and he was 11. It was still expensive even back then.

The saving grace 40k had back then was it was still a skirmish level game. A couple of squads, a tank and a couple of characters and you had a pretty solid force. Now it's barely enough to get you started.

While I still play 40k, I'd hate to see young people now try to build up a 1500 point army the same way I did then - saving up allowance and getting birthday/christmas gifts.

Kaldor wrote:

notprop wrote:To be fair that's a result of fluctuating currencies and seems to be common to allot of products in Aus/NZ. :flames:

Fluctuating shmuctuating. GW is boning us and you know it.

No I don't know anymore than you do, though I'm sure it feels that way.

My own cursory research indicates there is rough parity across the globe between average earnings and a few headline products. Certainly the closure of one of the avenues to take advantage of currency differences sucks but I understand that it is still possible to order from the Uk.

notprop wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

notprop wrote:To be fair that's a result of fluctuating currencies and seems to be common to allot of products in Aus/NZ. :flames:

Fluctuating shmuctuating. GW is boning us and you know it.

No I don't know anymore than you do, though I'm sure it feels that way.

Although in that sense I guess every other miniature manufacturer that sells in Aus is reverse-boning? Or.. something?!

Sounds kinky!

I know Battlefront did go through an excercise of ironing out the differences caused by currency issues 2-3 years ago, though I suspect being NZ based currency had been working against them to some extent.

jdamaso111 wrote:I have given up with GW completely. I have broken into Warmachine 100% as of a week ago. More bang for your buck in my opinion and you dont need a large amounts of models to field a legal army.

I see this a lot and have had people say to me "you should start warmachine, it's cheaper, you need less models!"

Which is cool for many people, whatever you want or need for your hobby is good.
But actually it costs just as much money to get started (Battle Box = £70 + paints) and I end up with less physically for my cash.
Yes I need less models to play, but what if I like battle games rather than skirmish games? And it still doesn't detract from the fact that I am indeed getting less for my money.

Pacific wrote:
It's no good comparing it to other hobbies though, such a comparison can be taken to any extreme ("compared to mountainbiking GW is cheap, and I only get to ride at weekends" etc.) Compared to every other brand in the industry however, GW is by far the most expensive.

Why can't hobbies be compared? Starting out collecting stamps is cheaper than GW; collecting GW is cheaper than taking up skiiing. It's all how we choose to spend our leisure time and our cash. Some hobbies are cheaper to get into than others and GW is fairly low on the list.
GW isn't any more expensive than PP or anyone else- they're all pretty evenly priced as far as I can see.

"Expensive" is still objective though- I know people who limit themselves to £20 a month on GW, I know others who have no problem justifying £200 a week.

Rayvon wrote:

Then compare it to the prices GW charge in Australia and it more than doubles to over £200 for the exact same stuff.

Agreed. The prices in Oz are a bit crazy. I don't know and wouldn't like to guess why. I'd have to know more about income & outgoings over there to really be able to see if it's actually much more expensive.

A BIT? A battleforce in Australia costs AUS $160. In the US or UK it is about AUS $90.

For income, the average salary is $55 - 75K (US $58-79 K or 37-50 000 pounds). There is talk over here of electricity prices rising by some huge amount (carbon tax et.al., but lets not go there). Same for water, probably petrol/gas too.

infinite_array wrote:

Henners91 wrote:
I'm 21 Where'd you get 18 from? I'm concerned that I've got out of date info somewhere...

Why, from your article page.

Which... was last updated in 2009.

Well, who's a better example than the person who put forth the idea in the first place, eh? Now, if you'll excuse me, there's a seemingly well worn dent in the wall that my forehead has to meet with.

As for FoW, there are plenty of other retailers who sell 15mm WWII (which isn't all that rare, I'd argue) at a much lower price than Battlefront. When you buy from Battlefront, your paying for at-least decent quality sculpts, and the convenience of getting everything you need to play for FoW. I've got a nice core of Battlefront figures myself, but my future purchases will be from Old Glory and PSC, it seems.

Ahh the good old 'head wall dent' I have one( a few) of those also, I wish Dakka had the orkmoticon for that I love that one on the Guild.

15mm is not 'that rare' compaired to 20mm. There is a lot more 20mm stuff around for historical's but for sci-fi 15mm seems the way to go. That is the one thing I do kinda respect about Battlefront they know people buy other stuff and they can't do anything about it except accept it and move on.

GW is still in kool aid land singing la la la with their fingers in their ears blabbing on about how great Finecast and liquid green stuff are.

There's heaps of 15mm SF on the market. There are several ranges of 6mm if you want to play mass battles.

Grimtuff wrote:

Emerett wrote:They think of themselves as the Louis Viutton of the miniature industry.
.

Irony being Louis Viutton is something of a Chav brand in the UK...

Ya, well that statement was from my pea sized american world view.

*goes and eats a bunch of bacon wrapped steak fries*

infinite_array wrote:

Henners91 wrote:
I'm 21 Where'd you get 18 from? I'm concerned that I've got out of date info somewhere...

Why, from your article page.

Which... was last updated in 2009.

Well, who's a better example than the person who put forth the idea in the first place, eh? Now, if you'll excuse me, there's a seemingly well worn dent in the wall that my forehead has to meet with.

As for FoW, there are plenty of other retailers who sell 15mm WWII (which isn't all that rare, I'd argue) at a much lower price than Battlefront. When you buy from Battlefront, your paying for at-least decent quality sculpts, and the convenience of getting everything you need to play for FoW. I've got a nice core of Battlefront figures myself, but my future purchases will be from Old Glory and PSC, it seems.

In honesty I have no idea how Articles work... so my bad

If I did, my few tutorials would be on there!

Lorizael wrote:

Pacific wrote:
It's no good comparing it to other hobbies though, such a comparison can be taken to any extreme ("compared to mountainbiking GW is cheap, and I only get to ride at weekends" etc.) Compared to every other brand in the industry however, GW is by far the most expensive.

Why can't hobbies be compared? Starting out collecting stamps is cheaper than GW; collecting GW is cheaper than taking up skiiing. It's all how we choose to spend our leisure time and our cash. Some hobbies are cheaper to get into than others and GW is fairly low on the list.
GW isn't any more expensive than PP or anyone else- they're all pretty evenly priced as far as I can see.

Yes, but you have to go an assumption that a particular hobby fills a certain category in terms of spending your time. Generally, wargaming involves collecting, modelling and painting miniatures, and so it is only fair to compare GW to other companies that offer a similar service. Going by these terms, GW is by far the most expensive. Even compared to itself in the past, there is no cheap option to play the games any more in the same way there was even 10 years ago (in the form of specialist games/board games).

If you think they are all evenly priced, then you need to do some research on it mate. PP has been getting progressively more expensive, but is still cheaper than GW. I could name many games that are cheaper to play, but just off the top of my head: Flames of war, Infinity, Malifaux, Dystopian wars, Bushido, Warpath/KoW, Dust Tactics, Tomorrow's War, Stargrunt, any number of Historical games.
All of these offer miniatures of a comparable (if not better in some case) quality, at a cheaper price both individually and over the course of collecting an army.

And this is from a UK perspective, considering the OP is posting from Australia I can't understand why anyone at all (with the exception perhaps of shareholders, who don't realise that the future viability of the GW hobby is being damaged) would want to defend GW's pricing strategy there. To put it kindly, it is utterly bonkers!

Being thirteen years old and having been playing 40k for five years now i struggle to buy units so blisters are quite good but i usually sell games on line or at my game store and spend it at my FLGS were you get a card for a five percent discount i usually save for two or three months to get a unit. The price probably does ward off the youngling but private school kids turn up and annoy the f**k out of everyone ocaisionly

The way GW prices are rising in AUS these days I'm starting to look at Warhammer Kits as good stable long term investment option . Much safer than the current stock market.

I was thinking about this the other day. Suppose you don't pay Orks or Space marines, or Skaven or High Elves.

Before you even buy miniatures you're looking at £35 for the brb, £20 for an army book/codex (I mean, £20 for a papercover book? Really?) and then another £3 for dice, £3 for one of GW's own tape measures (assuming the kid doesn't know better) and then a further £5 for templates. Thats £65. And thats before you've even got any metal/plastic/finecrap to play with.

Then your miniatures. Gone are they days when you can wander into a GW store with a fiver (£5 note for anyone who isn't in the know) and leave with anything bar paint, or maybe one paint brush. It's quite an expensive hobby as far as hobbys go.

WaaaaghLord wrote:I was thinking about this the other day. Suppose you don't pay Orks or Space marines, or Skaven or High Elves.

Before you even buy miniatures you're looking at £35 for the brb, £20 for an army book/codex (I mean, £20 for a papercover book? Really?) and then another £3 for dice, £3 for one of GW's own tape measures (assuming the kid doesn't know better) and then a further £5 for templates. Thats £65. And thats before you've even got any metal/plastic/finecrap to play with.

Then your miniatures. Gone are they days when you can wander into a GW store with a fiver (£5 note for anyone who isn't in the know) and leave with anything bar paint, or maybe one paint brush. It's quite an expensive hobby as far as hobbys go.

How i miss the good old days, spending the day in town and get the blister pack of my choice and a fast foood meal all with my five pounds pocket money.

Unless a kid has rich parents not many get into GW. When I started almost 16 years ago now with my pocket money I could buy new every week. I had 3 forces on the go and I was only 11, 12 years old. Now im almost 30 and with full time job and I cant afford one force nevermind 2 or 3. I cant see how kids now a days manage with GW prices. So much so I dont see young gw players in my area. Its all skirmish games which kids can actually afford

Pacific wrote:

Lorizael wrote:

Pacific wrote:
It's no good comparing it to other hobbies though, such a comparison can be taken to any extreme ("compared to mountainbiking GW is cheap, and I only get to ride at weekends" etc.) Compared to every other brand in the industry however, GW is by far the most expensive.

Why can't hobbies be compared? Starting out collecting stamps is cheaper than GW; collecting GW is cheaper than taking up skiiing. It's all how we choose to spend our leisure time and our cash. Some hobbies are cheaper to get into than others and GW is fairly low on the list.
GW isn't any more expensive than PP or anyone else- they're all pretty evenly priced as far as I can see.

Yes, but you have to go an assumption that a particular hobby fills a certain category in terms of spending your time. Generally, wargaming involves collecting, modelling and painting miniatures, and so it is only fair to compare GW to other companies that offer a similar service. Going by these terms, GW is by far the most expensive. Even compared to itself in the past, there is no cheap option to play the games any more in the same way there was even 10 years ago (in the form of specialist games/board games).

If you think they are all evenly priced, then you need to do some research on it mate. PP has been getting progressively more expensive, but is still cheaper than GW. I could name many games that are cheaper to play, but just off the top of my head: Flames of war, Infinity, Malifaux, Dystopian wars, Bushido, Warpath/KoW, Dust Tactics, Tomorrow's War, Stargrunt, any number of Historical games.
All of these offer miniatures of a comparable (if not better in some case) quality, at a cheaper price both individually and over the course of collecting an army.

And this is from a UK perspective, considering the OP is posting from Australia I can't understand why anyone at all (with the exception perhaps of shareholders, who don't realise that the future viability of the GW hobby is being damaged) would want to defend GW's pricing strategy there. To put it kindly, it is utterly bonkers!

Your logic makes sense to a point - that 'a particular hobby fills a certain category in terms of spending your time'; I'd say that sentiment is more valid if we say that, a hobby is comparable to another if you can do both in similar 'time slots'. For me, for example, I work most of the day on my dissertation or essays and spend most evenings with my girlfriend. For me, 'me-time' is one or two hours between finishing my work for the day and visiting my girlfriend. This is time spent in my room. I can either spend that time on my PC, gaming, or working on my models. So, at least in my personal situation, there is an opportunity cost between modelling and gaming. So, can I not say with a straight face that I consider my new Ork army to be better value for my time than, say, Mass Effect 3?


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WaaaaghLord wrote:I was thinking about this the other day. Suppose you don't pay Orks or Space marines, or Skaven or High Elves.

Before you even buy miniatures you're looking at £35 for the brb, £20 for an army book/codex (I mean, £20 for a papercover book? Really?) and then another £3 for dice, £3 for one of GW's own tape measures (assuming the kid doesn't know better) and then a further £5 for templates. Thats £65. And thats before you've even got any metal/plastic/finecrap to play with.

Then your miniatures. Gone are they days when you can wander into a GW store with a fiver (£5 note for anyone who isn't in the know) and leave with anything bar paint, or maybe one paint brush. It's quite an expensive hobby as far as hobbys go.

Or you buy AoBR and flog off the minis on e-Bay, keeping the rulebook, templates and measuring stick. Get the codex on eBay (cheapest Codex I ever got was Codex: Chaos Space Marines for £7), use dice out of an old boardgame in your house (I looted about thirty from our boardgame cupboard ), use a cheap tape measure you got in a cracker (though you do have the aforementioned measuring sticks).

Either you're over-stating/over-dramatacising (word?) the cost or you're describing someone who isn't that savvy with finding a good deal

Atm this cost, assuming you make back about £40 for the stuff in AoBR, is about £30...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I might add for the record that I only have the 40k armies I have because I am a spoiled brat from Surrey. Even at this age birthday money and Christmas presents probably paid for a good portion of my stuff..

Though, being at uni on a student loan means that if I work (I do the odd job that the uni offers) I can get nice lump sums for temporary stuff. £40 to work 9am-3pm showing people around the Campus, or £100 for being a Steward at a conference for two days. Those sums tend to go straight into my hobby.

The time/cost analogy very rarely stacks up. Yes, you can look at a set of minis and say 'that will take me x months to build, assemble and paint so therefore is much more value than a video game that will take 20 hours to complete' but we very rarely weigh up entertainment in this fashion.

If we did, no-one would go bungee jumping or go on a roller coaster because it only lasts a couple of minutes and we would all be doing 10,000 piece jigsaws or reading War & Peace instead because that's the highest time per pound ratio.

Looking at leisure time purely in terms of money/time is misleading.

Perhaps, but what can match that urge when you're twitching at work or wherever you are to just get back and work on that pet project? I'm young and I guess this is the only hobby I've ever had, but nothing beats that drive you can feel and the immense self-satisfaction from bashing something up

I suppose people will say you can get that from other wargaming companies' stuff... and yeah, I did get pretty hyped about my WW2 sets.

Motograter wrote:Unless a kid has rich parents not many get into GW. When I started almost 16 years ago now with my pocket money I could buy new every week. I had 3 forces on the go and I was only 11, 12 years old. Now im almost 30 and with full time job and I cant afford one force nevermind 2 or 3. I cant see how kids now a days manage with GW prices. So much so I dont see young gw players in my area. Its all skirmish games which kids can actually afford

This is sort of the target maket for GW IMHO, not so much the 10-14 year olds but their parents.

Personally my parents never gave me money for figures (Silly soldiers were not worth it in my Dads opinion), money for rugger boots was a differant matter. 20 years ago may have been a little differant to now though.

Importantly, what we get out of our hobby is crucial, IMO. We get time to be social and interact with others, which, from what I've observed, some folks that I've played with might not too much of otherwise. I've made a small circle of close friends through this hobby, and I'd say that they're worth the money I've dropped on Warhamz (which, to my horror, is higher than I'd thought).

Hobbies nowadays are expensive, let's be honest. A good DSLR can cost upwards of $800 USD, and that's just for the camera, never mind all the accessories that go along with it. Video games can get moderately expensive if one buys most of the newer stuff that comes out. I play airsoft; my gear cost about $100 USD (and that's cheap, unfortunately), my rifle another $300, and my sidearm about $150. BB's and gas run me about $40/month (I play two times a week, ish, and am fairly aggressive when I do). If you're a nut like me who buys a new rifle every two months, it gets even nastier. However, I've made more friends through airsoft, martial arts, and a few of my other hobbies, and shared in some great times with them all. The price's impact is lessened by that knowledge.

Does the general cost of hobbies justify a box of 5 toy soldiers being $50? Not really. But that price can be insignificant compared to some of the great times buying that box might bring you.

Henners91 wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

WaaaaghLord wrote:I was thinking about this the other day. Suppose you don't pay Orks or Space marines, or Skaven or High Elves.

Before you even buy miniatures you're looking at £35 for the brb, £20 for an army book/codex (I mean, £20 for a papercover book? Really?) and then another £3 for dice, £3 for one of GW's own tape measures (assuming the kid doesn't know better) and then a further £5 for templates. Thats £65. And thats before you've even got any metal/plastic/finecrap to play with.

Then your miniatures. Gone are they days when you can wander into a GW store with a fiver (£5 note for anyone who isn't in the know) and leave with anything bar paint, or maybe one paint brush. It's quite an expensive hobby as far as hobbys go.

Or you buy AoBR and flog off the minis on e-Bay, keeping the rulebook, templates and measuring stick. Get the codex on eBay (cheapest Codex I ever got was Codex: Chaos Space Marines for £7), use dice out of an old boardgame in your house (I looted about thirty from our boardgame cupboard ), use a cheap tape measure you got in a cracker (though you do have the aforementioned measuring sticks).

Either you're over-stating/over-dramatacising (word?) the cost or you're describing someone who isn't that savvy with finding a good deal

Atm this cost, assuming you make back about £40 for the stuff in AoBR, is about £30...

How many young customers (target market 10-14) do you know with eBay accounts, bank accounts and paypal?

filbert wrote: The time/cost analogy very rarely stacks up. Yes, you can look at a set of minis and say 'that will take me x months to build, assemble and paint so therefore is much more value than a video game that will take 20 hours to complete' but we very rarely weigh up entertainment in this fashion.

If we did, no-one would go bungee jumping or go on a roller coaster because it only lasts a couple of minutes and we would all be doing 10,000 piece jigsaws or reading War & Peace instead because that's the highest time per pound ratio.

I agree with this. There are dramatically different types of entertainment and one doesn’t necessarily supersede the other (outside of vacuum comparisons).

In regards to videogames specifically (since this vacuum comparison appears often on dakka), completion time varies dramatically between different videogames. A “flavour of the month” shooter might take around 20 hours to complete whereas a decent RPG can takes months to complete. Most savvy gamers will check out reviews and take into account things like completion time and replayability prior to purchase.

In regards to cost comparisons, one expensive hobby doesn’t justify another. Total cost comparisons should also be taken with a grain of salt as very rarely will someone (especially a kid) would buy everything in one go.

They're not pricing away young fans because young fans don't know any different, and for the time GW wants them to stay customers (Initial purchase/1 birthday/1 Christmas) they probably won't notice a price increase, and certainly won't be around long enough to notice the next one.

I actually disagree with the notion that the throw-away kids are the core market of GW's product. Those guys are the reason the starter sets are the way they are, that's for sure. THOSE things are targetted to get out the door on kids who may or may not stick with the hobby.

But I'm an adult with a six figure income and I probably spend perhaps 5000 USD per year on the hobby if not more (more money than time...), and because I do, so do perhaps 4-5 of my adult friends. We're worth maybe a hundred of these throw away customers and I don't think we're unique - and we buy basically everything else that isn't flogged to the new starters.

So really they have multiple streams and I think they cater to both. That's why their games have a kind of shallow, "Big cool space warrios shooting aliens" initial pitch but a really detailed and gritty grim-dark detail once you get into it - covers both markets.

japheth wrote:I actually disagree with the notion that the throw-away kids are the core market of GW's product. Those guys are the reason the starter sets are the way they are, that's for sure. THOSE things are targetted to get out the door on kids who may or may not stick with the hobby.

But I'm an adult with a six figure income and I probably spend perhaps 5000 USD per year on the hobby if not more (more money than time...), and because I do, so do perhaps 4-5 of my adult friends. We're worth maybe a hundred of these throw away customers and I don't think we're unique - and we buy basically everything else that isn't flogged to the new starters.

So really they have multiple streams and I think they cater to both. That's why their games have a kind of shallow, "Big cool space warrios shooting aliens" initial pitch but a really detailed and gritty grim-dark detail once you get into it - covers both markets.

Go talk to a GW sales rep then come back to me on that theory.

Also I advise you to go re-read all the recent fluff that has come out on the codexes, the "really detailed and gritty grim-dark detail" has been conspicuously absent from it for the past few years, in fact it would have disappeared altogether if it weren't for the BL novels...

japheth wrote:I actually disagree with the notion that the throw-away kids are the core market of GW's product. Those guys are the reason the starter sets are the way they are, that's for sure. THOSE things are targetted to get out the door on kids who may or may not stick with the hobby.

But I'm an adult with a six figure income and I probably spend perhaps 5000 USD per year on the hobby if not more (more money than time...), and because I do, so do perhaps 4-5 of my adult friends. We're worth maybe a hundred of these throw away customers and I don't think we're unique - and we buy basically everything else that isn't flogged to the new starters.

So really they have multiple streams and I think they cater to both. That's why their games have a kind of shallow, "Big cool space warrios shooting aliens" initial pitch but a really detailed and gritty grim-dark detail once you get into it - covers both markets.

Lets see 5000$ x 5 guys = 25000
500$ x 100 kids = 50000

I'll take the 100 kids, then the 100 next year, then the 100 the year after. The kids are were the money is at, why would GW care if the last more then a month or 2 tops they all ready got there shere holder money. What more likely 1000s of guys dropping 1000+$ a year when they own 100s of models or 1000s of kids dropping 100+$ a year to get there first army..

To be fair, Japheth’s post is still somewhat relevant even if this was more the case several years ago.

PhantomViper is also correct in that the “gritty fluff” has been notably absent during the past few years. 5th edition has been notorious IMO for shifting the fluff and rules towards a younger market. The fluff in 5th edition has had a consistent “comic book” feel (usually with a SM hero triumphing against all the odds) and the rules for Space Marines have been consistently bloated and “over the top”.

I'm not sure it isn't because of the change in writers (younger themselves) rather than purely a shift in focus. GW has been aiming selling to young teens for quite some years, it's not really a new thing.

Nope they arnt pricing away young fans, because its not always the young ones that are paying.
Its often the parents, which is a cheaper alternative for finding something "safe" for their children to do.

You know, when parents say " children that plays instruments wont stray" ?

honestly im 19, im serious with my gf i plan on getting married eventually. Im building one more army and thats probably it for a long time due to the price. It now takes a small fortune for an army.

I haven't bought anything in over a year because they priced me out. Their other problems have only compounded my reasons for not buying from them directly.

If "Younger gamers" really were the only customers GW was interested in, why would they EVER release a new rules version, or a new Codex?

Think about it. If the "grand plan" was to only ever have people be customers for one year, they'd never see an edition change. GW could fire the entire design studio and we'd still be on 2nd edition 40k and 4th edition WFB.

GW is spendy.

It's not THAT spendy, considering that you have the models forever, and invest hours on hours in painting, modelling, converting and playing them (at least I do... i've played opposite unpainted marine legs armies blutacked onto unflocked bases before ).

My other non-wargaming/non RPG hobby is building combat robots. I get to fight them about once a year, and it's odds on all i'll have afterwards is the handset controller

The costs involved in that make building a GW army seem tiny. My next bot is on hold due to costs right now, but it will likely run me several thousand by the time it's done.


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Younger gamers can afford theis hobby, though it is wallet-squeezingly painful when you have little money (as i did at that age). They jus thave to play smaller games, and pick the armies up slower (or sweet-talk parents ;D )

... you'll have them forever?


You seen the current generation? They are lucky if they decide to stick with something for 6-12 months before dumping it and buying a newer, now more expensive army before repeating the cycle.

We had one kid decide to play tyranids in 4th ed, only to sell them because they were 'crap' - making back maybe 40% of what they cost him. He switched to marines, then eldar, then back to marines, and finally back to Tyranids (except now the army cost him twice what it did last time).

I have no pov as a child gamer with parentals paying for my stuff (I bought 95% of my stuff, with the other 5% being gifts from friends). I started small and worked up to my 10-12,000pts of Eldar and marines (each). I didn't go out and overnight come back with all of them in one go.

Those armies took me the better part of 18-20 years to assemble to that point. Longer than most of the younger players in my club have been alive. I can't see any of them maintaining that level of dedication for longer than 5 years.

The way I see it is like this:

I buy stuff for my hobby every month as a treat for myself (and because I'm kind of addicted to spending my wage -.-).
I earn the money and after paying my bills, my rent and buying mah foods, I always get something new for my armies. Or maybe I'll buy a DVD set or something else. Maybe a novel.
Regardless, the price of a treat for myself and something to do in my free time pretty much pays for itself.
Money is made for spending, right?

When I see parents in my local GW with their youngsters (10-12 years old roughly. Sometimes even a lot younger like 7-8) I just always assume they're buying it for their kids because it's not really a big deal for them.
I'd imagine that if they're working full-time and well paying jobs then they have the money to spend on making their kids happy and give them something to do. That must be pretty rewarding for them to see and get involved with.

I see a lot of mums in my local GW that stay and watch their youngsters games and help them paint and they all usually have a nice smile on their face. The hobby is stimulating and engaging.
At the end of the day, that pretty much negates the cost.

However, sometimes I feel like GW should push towards their older player-group.
I mean, we have vet nights and I guess we get those novels and what-not but, eh, I dunno. When I see a bunch of obnoxious kids roaming around the store bumping into gaming tables and paint-stations, jogging people as they paint... Ugh. Especially in the summer holidays. Good god, I avoid GW like the plague during holiday seasons. *Shudder*

Someone should make a poll on how they feel about stripping finecost

chromedog wrote:... you'll have them forever?


You seen the current generation? They are lucky if they decide to stick with something for 6-12 months before dumping it and buying a newer, now more expensive army before repeating the cycle.

We had one kid decide to play tyranids in 4th ed, only to sell them because they were 'crap' - making back maybe 40% of what they cost him. He switched to marines, then eldar, then back to marines, and finally back to Tyranids (except now the army cost him twice what it did last time).

I have no pov as a child gamer with parentals paying for my stuff (I bought 95% of my stuff, with the other 5% being gifts from friends). I started small and worked up to my 10-12,000pts of Eldar and marines (each). I didn't go out and overnight come back with all of them in one go.

Those armies took me the better part of 18-20 years to assemble to that point. Longer than most of the younger players in my club have been alive. I can't see any of them maintaining that level of dedication for longer than 5 years.

Fair enough

My kids are too small at this point to get to that trend.

I still have models from when i was 8, but i guess that puts me in the 'older than dirt' generation

chromedog wrote:... you'll have them forever?


You seen the current generation? They are lucky if they decide to stick with something for 6-12 months before dumping it and buying a newer, now more expensive army before repeating the cycle.

Those armies took me the better part of 18-20 years to assemble to that point. Longer than most of the younger players in my club have been alive. I can't see any of them maintaining that level of dedication for longer than 5 years.

You do know that people have been complaining in such terms about the following generation for millenia, right ?

Hyd wrote:You do know that people have been complaining in such terms about the following generation for millenia, right ?

Dont think he was really complaining.

Lorizael wrote:

jdamaso111 wrote:I have given up with GW completely. I have broken into Warmachine 100% as of a week ago. More bang for your buck in my opinion and you dont need a large amounts of models to field a legal army.

I see this a lot and have had people say to me "you should start warmachine, it's cheaper, you need less models!"

Which is cool for many people, whatever you want or need for your hobby is good.
But actually it costs just as much money to get started (Battle Box = £70 + paints) and I end up with less physically for my cash.
Yes I need less models to play, but what if I like battle games rather than skirmish games? And it still doesn't detract from the fact that I am indeed getting less for my money.

Pacific wrote:
It's no good comparing it to other hobbies though, such a comparison can be taken to any extreme ("compared to mountainbiking GW is cheap, and I only get to ride at weekends" etc.) Compared to every other brand in the industry however, GW is by far the most expensive.

Why can't hobbies be compared? Starting out collecting stamps is cheaper than GW; collecting GW is cheaper than taking up skiiing. It's all how we choose to spend our leisure time and our cash. Some hobbies are cheaper to get into than others and GW is fairly low on the list.
GW isn't any more expensive than PP or anyone else- they're all pretty evenly priced as far as I can see.

"Expensive" is still objective though- I know people who limit themselves to £20 a month on GW, I know others who have no problem justifying £200 a week.

Rayvon wrote:

Then compare it to the prices GW charge in Australia and it more than doubles to over £200 for the exact same stuff.

Agreed. The prices in Oz are a bit crazy. I don't know and wouldn't like to guess why. I'd have to know more about income & outgoings over there to really be able to see if it's actually much more expensive.

I have managed to get three jacks and two war casters for under 20 bucks via ebay and trades, used the paint and glue i have to do them all up. Just depends on how you go about getting your hands on the stuff IMHO. No matter how hard i looked for the minis i needed for warhammer i always ended up paying a decent amount in the long run regardless of how i procured them.

LunaHound wrote:Someone should make a poll on how they feel about stripping finecost

Has anyone actually tried this yet? I'd love to see what a 3 day soak in Simple Green and a vigorous toothbrush... brushing, will do to a Finecast model.

infinite_array wrote:

LunaHound wrote:Someone should make a poll on how they feel about stripping finecost

Has anyone actually tried this yet? I'd love to see what a 3 day soak in Simple Green and a vigorous toothbrush... brushing, will do to a Finecast model.

Thats what Im doing thats why i was curious.

Lets just say fine cast + vigourous tooth brushing does not mix.
Not even gentle scrubbing -_-

Rayvon wrote:

Hyd wrote:You do know that people have been complaining in such terms about the following generation for millenia, right ?

Dont think he was really complaining.

You got that right.

It was an observation, not a complaint.

The 'current' generation of players (born in the 90s) here have shown me by their actions that they don't have the "stick-to-it-iveness" to keep at something longer than they've currently been alive for - but it's a rare teen that DOES have this kind of focus that isn't also OCD or has anykind of the ASD either. The guys I started gaming with are all still gamers. Mind you, we were all "growed-ups" when we started, so focus was probably a tad easier (the brain rewiring had all been finished by then).

Besides: The younger generation are ALWAYS to blame for the ills of today. Especially reality TV. That is a pox upon the world.

I'm 14 years old myself and only starting to collect 40k now, one of my best friends got me into it. Before i went to buy any, my perents made me borrow models to play with from the gaming club for almost half a year to make sure that it wasn't just a fays i was going threw.

And once i had stayed at it for long enough I had to look for a cheaper way of buying the models because i didn't have enough money and my perents wouldn't rase my allowance. I ended up going in dept anyway. Now i only go to GW to buy paint.

Two more years and you can get a job

You can buy a surprisingly large amount of models if you have no expenses and spend all of your money on 40k.

LunaHound wrote:

Lets just say fine cast + vigourous tooth brushing does not mix.
Not even gentle scrubbing -_-

So what actually happens ?
Sounds like another reason for me to seek out metal recasters, i quite often strip and repaint my models.

HI folks.
In the last decade, the cost of playing a 'proper game' of 40k in real terms has doubled.
Price rises over inflation, lowering of PV so you need more minatures to fill out your army , and the creep up on total army size in games.

A GW plc has lost over 40% of its sales volumes in the last 7 years.(This started before the credit crunch.)

I would say GW plc agressive pricing to make up for falling sales volumes is driving away all ages of fans.(Older ones looking at other game systems, youngers ones NOT starting 40k/WHFB.)

If you can only play in the local GW B&M store then you ARE restricted to GW games or not playing...
And if you are playing in a GW B&M stores you are getting the benifit of the 300%(ave) extra you pay to support the GW B&M stores.(Only 24% of the price you pay GW plc is to cover ALL overheads apart from shipping and the B&M stores.)
Why anyone would pay GW prices and NOT use thier stores to play in is beyond me...

For thoes sill able to afford GW plc pricing.When do you get priced out?
£10 each for a plastic minature?
£20 each for a plastic minatue?

Lanrak wrote:Why anyone would pay GW prices and NOT use thier stores to play in is beyond me...

I'm not interested in playing at a GW store. But I buy my minis from GW stores for two reasons;
1. The convienience - the store is only a 10 minute walk away and I walk right by going to/from work.
2. Pieice of mind that I'm going to get the stuff I pay for. Too many parcels lost or damaged in the post. And if sent by courrier I have no chance of ever getting the parcel.

i once heard an intresting discussion where the target market was described as the parents of children rather than the actual children. Mainly due to more disposable income.

Lanrak wrote:HI folks.
In the last decade, the cost of playing a 'proper game' of 40k in real terms has doubled.
Price rises over inflation, lowering of PV so you need more minatures to fill out your army , and the creep up on total army size in games.

A GW plc has lost over 40% of its sales volumes in the last 7 years.(This started before the credit crunch.)

I would say GW plc agressive pricing to make up for falling sales volumes is driving away all ages of fans.(Older ones looking at other game systems, youngers ones NOT starting 40k/WHFB.)

If you can only play in the local GW B&M store then you ARE restricted to GW games or not playing...
And if you are playing in a GW B&M stores you are getting the benifit of the 300%(ave) extra you pay to support the GW B&M stores.(Only 24% of the price you pay GW plc is to cover ALL overheads apart from shipping and the B&M stores.)
Why anyone would pay GW prices and NOT use thier stores to play in is beyond me...

For thoes sill able to afford GW plc pricing.When do you get priced out?
£10 each for a plastic minature?
£20 each for a plastic minatue?

Seriously, are you just copying and pasting this now or do you retype the same thing in every GW thread?

notprop wrote:

Lanrak wrote:HI folks.
In the last decade, the cost of playing a 'proper game' of 40k in real terms has doubled.
Price rises over inflation, lowering of PV so you need more minatures to fill out your army , and the creep up on total army size in games.

A GW plc has lost over 40% of its sales volumes in the last 7 years.(This started before the credit crunch.)

I would say GW plc agressive pricing to make up for falling sales volumes is driving away all ages of fans.(Older ones looking at other game systems, youngers ones NOT starting 40k/WHFB.)

If you can only play in the local GW B&M store then you ARE restricted to GW games or not playing...
And if you are playing in a GW B&M stores you are getting the benifit of the 300%(ave) extra you pay to support the GW B&M stores.(Only 24% of the price you pay GW plc is to cover ALL overheads apart from shipping and the B&M stores.)
Why anyone would pay GW prices and NOT use thier stores to play in is beyond me...

For thoes sill able to afford GW plc pricing.When do you get priced out?
£10 each for a plastic minature?
£20 each for a plastic minatue?

Seriously, are you just copying and pasting this now or do you retype the same thing in every GW thread?

The sole reason I dont play in a GW store is because its full of spotty pests and teenagers, and the manager has a bizarre Science fiction nickname.

Id rather lock all my doors, draw the curtains and play with a pair of shoe's for terrain than navigate the place.

Another way to think about it: if parents get to drop their kids off at the gamestore they are getting FREE babysitting. After playing a couple of games a kid can be there for what - 6 hours? Some parents would gladly pay for the occassonal box of minis considering this equation. Plus they KNOW where their kids are at an age where kids COULD be getting into big trouble elsewhere.

Or what about the SAD DAD syndrome? Dad would do ANYTHING to be able to play games again. But he can't. Because he has to watch Little Jimmy. Well, lo and behold Jimmy is nine years old now and what do you know, he can hold a paintbrush and roll dice. Now Dad is thinking, "Hmmmm, I can play 40K again AND keep Jimmy out of trouble AND the wife won't even complain about all the money I am flushing because it is father-son bonding time (maybe wife gets to go hang out with her friends or whatever).

So how is it that young gamers can afford the hobby? Because parents pay, oh yes, the parents will pay.

I live in a welfare and food stamps neighborhood. The children here are festooned with electronics: cell phones, portable video game systems, ipods, etc. Costs of such things could easily pay for large armies of GW product.

It isn't children or even their parents who complain about the prices. Even poor parents waste money foolishly on their children.

Old folks have stability and planned disposable income.

The people that complain about the prices the most are those that are no longer being supported but are also struggling to support themselves.

DarknessEternal wrote:

The people that complain about the prices the most are those that are no longer being supported but are also struggling to support themselves.

Way to generalize people that don't want to spend $1500 for a 1850 point army.

I'm guessing the people that complain the most, see how stupidly overpriced 40k is and would rather spend their money elsewhere (travel, savings, better hobbies).

Rayvon wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Lets just say fine cast + vigourous tooth brushing does not mix.
Not even gentle scrubbing -_-

So what actually happens ?
Sounds like another reason for me to seek out metal recasters, i quite often strip and repaint my models.

Scrub hard enough to remove paint and have pieces break.

Or not scrub hard enough and can barely remove paint.

Unless you invest in those sonic jewellery cleaners, you really wont be cleaning the finecast.

Very smart move GW ( not sarcastic either )

Ultrasonic machines are actually not too expensive and get a lot more use around the house than you might think.

Heres a decent one for $35.

http://www.amazon.com/New-Trent-Ultrasonic-Eyeglass-Dentures/dp/B000SOQ6KQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1329622528&sr=8-1

LunaHound wrote:

Very smart move GW ( not sarcastic either )

I was thinking the same thing, maybe even one of the reasons they switched.

Rayvon:
The issue isn't the brushing off of paint; but rather Finecast seems to react to the common stripping solution in the form of Simple Green.

It seems to soften up the material, and causing it to not properly harden afterwards. In some cases--like my own, when I stripped paint off Konrad von Carstein--, it also causes a bizarre sloughing effect where the material will actually flake off when you remove the paint it is attached to.

Emerett wrote:Way to generalize people that don't want to spend $1500 for a 1850 point army.

I'm guessing the people that complain the most, see how stupidly overpriced 40k is and would rather spend their money elsewhere (travel, savings, better hobbies).

Hyperbole much? My Krieg army, direct from FW, didn't cost $1500 for an 1850 point army.

Sure, I could spend my money on many things, but choose to spend it on GW. If I'm spending it on a "better hobby", than why am I bothering with 40k in the first place, or posting on an intrawebz forum?

Is 40k overpriced? Sure. Is sci-fi wargaming becoming overpriced in general? Sure. Can I afford it without batting an eye? Sure.

Kanluwen wrote:Rayvon:
The issue isn't the brushing off of paint; but rather Finecast seems to react to the common stripping solution in the form of Simple Green.

It seems to soften up the material, and causing it to not properly harden afterwards. In some cases--like my own, when I stripped paint off Konrad von Carstein--, it also causes a bizarre sloughing effect where the material will actually flake off when you remove the paint it is attached to.

So? either way GW made sure we wont be able to reuse the minis same way we can with metal


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Cruentus wrote:Is 40k overpriced? Sure. Is sci-fi wargaming becoming overpriced in general? Sure. Can I afford it without batting an eye? Sure.

Good for you >.>

infinite_array wrote:

LunaHound wrote:Someone should make a poll on how they feel about stripping finecost

Has anyone actually tried this yet? I'd love to see what a 3 day soak in Simple Green and a vigorous toothbrush... brushing, will do to a Finecast model.

It's not nice. I put Crow into a simple green bath and left him for a few weeks. I've done the same with FW and had no problems with it. Crows sword looked like it needed viagra, his shoulder guard rim broke off because of the scrubbing and while using GW chaos black primer it just wouldn't come off. The paint came off rather well but forget about the primer. The same thing happens sometimes with plastic models when you use different primers.

I have a SOB rhino that has been in Simple green for over a year because I got it second hand and the paint just wont come off, it might be enamal (sp?) but I just don't know. For metal SG works wonders, for plastic it depends on the primer and for FineCast well the jury is still out. But it doesn't look good.

Might this be a way for GW to stop the second hand market, if FC can't be stripped who is going to buy all of little timmys models off of ebay?


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notprop wrote:

Lanrak wrote:HI folks.
In the last decade, the cost of playing a 'proper game' of 40k in real terms has doubled.
Price rises over inflation, lowering of PV so you need more minatures to fill out your army , and the creep up on total army size in games.

A GW plc has lost over 40% of its sales volumes in the last 7 years.(This started before the credit crunch.)

I would say GW plc agressive pricing to make up for falling sales volumes is driving away all ages of fans.(Older ones looking at other game systems, youngers ones NOT starting 40k/WHFB.)

If you can only play in the local GW B&M store then you ARE restricted to GW games or not playing...
And if you are playing in a GW B&M stores you are getting the benifit of the 300%(ave) extra you pay to support the GW B&M stores.(Only 24% of the price you pay GW plc is to cover ALL overheads apart from shipping and the B&M stores.)
Why anyone would pay GW prices and NOT use thier stores to play in is beyond me...

For thoes sill able to afford GW plc pricing.When do you get priced out?
£10 each for a plastic minature?
£20 each for a plastic minatue?

Seriously, are you just copying and pasting this now or do you retype the same thing in every GW thread?

What does the truth hurt you or something? GW PLC is loosing money hand over fist compaired to the glory days 90's where they doubled the company size for three years straight. Is GW doubling profits now? Kinda makes you wonder.

I know I bash GW a lot. I am jaded and biased. I admit it. They screwed me over when I worked for them. I am sorry I take that kinda personally. But the amount of GW white knighting is amazing. When people give you hard facts from GW's own financial year end reports what else can you say. The only reasion they are still in business isn't because of their awesome product it's because they slashed their retail staff and factory costs. While the whole time saying they had 'excess' money to throw into the divident ( of which Mr Kirby owns 6%). You do know he's going to get a 'golden handshake' also. His last great achievement was coming to North America with the 'one man store idea' fethed everything up then went back home with a 'Mission Accomplished' banner flying over his head.

When 2+2=4 I personally think you have to roll with it.

Would definitely be enamel for that Rhino, not much that can be done for it as anything that will strip it will likely destroy or damage the plastic. Though at this point it may just be a hollow paint shell. Either way it'll be interesting to see the effect being submerged for that long would have.

Kaldor wrote:To be fair, being in Australia skews the experience for us. We pay more than double the price GW products. Hell, it's actually cheaper to buy the Forgeworld models and have them shipped from the UK than it is to buy at stores in Australia.

That is both hilarious and moderately depressing.

Emerett wrote:
Way to generalize people that don't want to spend $1500 for a 1850 point army.

No one is going to take you seriously when you just make things up.

FabricatorGeneralMike wrote:..............


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notprop wrote:

Lanrak wrote:................snip..........

Seriously, are you just copying and pasting this now or do you retype the same thing in every GW thread?

What does the truth hurt you or something? GW PLC is loosing money hand over fist compaired to the glory days 90's where they doubled the company size for three years straight. Is GW doubling profits now? Kinda makes you wonder.

I know I bash GW a lot. I am jaded and biased. I admit it. They screwed me over when I worked for them. I am sorry I take that kinda personally. But the amount of GW white knighting is amazing. When people give you hard facts from GW's own financial year end reports what else can you say. The only reasion they are still in business isn't because of their awesome product it's because they slashed their retail staff and factory costs. While the whole time saying they had 'excess' money to throw into the divident ( of which Mr Kirby owns 6%). You do know he's going to get a 'golden handshake' also. His last great achievement was coming to North America with the 'one man store idea' fethed everything up then went back home with a 'Mission Accomplished' banner flying over his head.

When 2+2=4 I personally think you have to roll with it.

Okaaaaaaay? More of friendly dig at the similarity of Lanrak's posts these days but nice to see you took it seriously for him. [hint]the smiley gave away the intent[/hint]

However since we are looking at the truth here's a few for you;

1) GW's profits raised this year based upon new revenues from Licensing, shown on account them now introducing it en mass to the accounts rather spread out over term. I'm sure you read this in the report but just forgot it.

2) The reason GW are in business is because of their product. People like it and want to buy it in large quantities so they remain in business.

3) The one man store model (odd term because they all seem to have two in may experience) is a result of the lean times were are in, trimming the fat is pretty common in these circumstances. The reduced wage bill has allowed GW to return to a better position financially with less liabilities. This is pretty much rule one of protecting the business - employ as many as you need, not that you would like. At my fir we call this the Lite model.

4) The basis that GW is in trouble that Lanrak uses is the reduction in sales volume, this can be interpreted in a number of ways - the move away from blisters to boxsets complete with all options (no need for an extra blister for command/special weapons anymore), the reduction in small purchase items from store and onto direct only, etc. The fact is the truth is probably a little of all of them. There is enough information in the report that you shouldn't base a whole hypothesis (not truth btw) on one line, statistics after-all can be used to prove anything. The City seems to like what they see, GW stock is reasonable buoyant.

5) Mr Kirby does indeed own share in the company he works for. As the CEO it would be a poor sign if he didn't, the fact that despite being a wealthy man he continues to own this is a good sign, not a suspicious money grab conspiracy.

6) Dividends are a natural result of an investment. If I buy a stake in a company you fething right I want a return. (note I don't actually have GW stock).

7) Golden Handshake - probably. It's pretty common at that level, certainly not another conspiracy or something to rail against.

8) The implementation on expanding markets of a model that GW has built it's business on would seem like common sense to most. It remains to be seen whether GW expand in NA or not. I would actually suggest his biggest achievement would either taking the company public or the acquisition of the LotR licence.

9) 2+2 does indeed equal 4, though this is business not basic mathematics some would suggest 2+2=

My sons are 9 and 11. Both of them enjoy 40k and LotR. LotR was easy a few years back as there was always tons of cheap plastic around to keep them happy and the odd metal character model wasn't a huge stretch. Nowadays with boxes of 10 at £13.50 and individual characters in Finecrap and costing upwards of £8.50 for a single Goblin, they look at their pocket money or their birthday allowance and think "Nah, not this time, I'll put it to a new scooter, or a PS3 game". And I can't blame them.

40k has always been expensive though, (at least in the last 4 years they have been playing and collecting) and has always for them been a case of birthday presents or second hand from bring and buy at local shows (which often has - for them - the added bonus of coming already painted). The idea of them forking out £60 for a vehicle is just laughable. Although they both devour the codices and fluff and would devour White Dwarf back in the day when I still used to buy it 3 or 4 years ago.

WFB has always been out of the question. My eldest boy likes Dwarfs, but has priced up even a small 1,000 point army and decided it isn't worth it until he finds cheap plastic second hand stuff somewhere.

The eldest likes painting, but gets bored having to do too much. He plays games of 40k and LotR with me, and a couple of his school friends who also have some figures. The youngest hates painting and can't be bothered, nor will he play with anyone else but me as I have the patience to keep explaining the rules to him as he's a bit young to read them himself yet.

So do I think GW are doing a good job of marketing to kids? In one sense yes - the boys' "aquisition instincts" are highly motivated by the product, notwithstanding the reality is that they have mainly grey models and not lots of lovely painted stuff like in the pictures (although I have painted some of their stuff for them, and as I said the eldest does have a go himself when he feels in the mood). However, they are well priced out of the market. And will continue to be for the forseeable future as GW's applied rate of inflation to their products is likely to be much in excess of that I apply to their allowance!


And that's with a dad who likes to encourage them, shares their interest, and totally sees the benefits of it. Also, who paints up some of their models and gives them access to a large terrain collection and extra models fro my own collection for games whenever they want.

Lads with parents who are less accepting don't have a chance, unless they are seriously loaded - which does happen - one of my 11-year-old's mates gets an allowance of £25/week. Which is obscene in my opinion!

I have no idea how younger kids are getting into the hobby. Sure, there are a few kids out there with rich parents, but they are the exception. I remember back in the late 80's and
early 90's, I used to see GW adds in White Dwarf. I always thought the models were really cool looking, but there was no way I could afford them. And I actually had a part time job
all the way thru junior high and early high school. I stuck with D&D and video games instead.

The economy is in bad shape, inflation is rising rapidly, and wages are stagnant. Yet GW continues to raise prices on already overpriced merchandise.

My kids are going to play Warmachine, or something that doesn't gouge my pockets.
Hopefully GW locks their crap up and stops ripping their fans off with ludicrous pricing.

/lather rinse, repeat.

Good luck with that, where GW goes with pricing most seem to follow.

Sadly this is true.

There will be some cool new fad for kids to get hooked into by the time I have kids old enough for that.

Like speed.

If you want cheap minature wargaming, try 1/72 or 1/76 stuff... Sixty infantry for £6? Don't mind if I do...

Then you get companies like Armourfast or Pegasus Hobbies who'll do you two easy-fit tanks in a box for £8.

n0t_u wrote:Would definitely be enamel for that Rhino, not much that can be done for it as anything that will strip it will likely destroy or damage the plastic. Though at this point it may just be a hollow paint shell. Either way it'll be interesting to see the effect being submerged for that long would have.

Funny you should ask that, the plastic is just fine. No warping or anything, most of the enamel has finally started to peal off but getting into the cracks and detail like the Rhino door plate for the Sisters is going to be almost impossible.

As I have no use for rhino's anymore, I am thinking of it more like a science experiment =o]


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Henners91 wrote:If you want cheap minature wargaming, try 1/72 or 1/76 stuff... Sixty infantry for £6? Don't mind if I do...

Then you get companies like Armourfast or Pegasus Hobbies who'll do you two easy-fit tanks in a box for £8.

Have to plug Elhiem mini's also. Mat does good work. S&S models also do great resin vehicles. =o]

HI notprop.
I understood your post as a friendly jibe about how I repeat that GW plc current buisness plan is one that promotes short term survivability , massive share bonus for Kirby , at the expence of its long term future.
I post this in all relevent threads where GW plc pricing structure is mentioned because it is relevent.

The official finacial report ALWAYS tries to put the company in the most positive light possible , as it is for the investors to read.

However , if you look at the over all picture from 2004-5 to now, the decline in sales is very evident.
IF GW plc were selling the SAME amount of product thier turn over would be appx £170M ajusting for inflation.(Irrespective of packaging type.)
And over £230M ajusting for the price rises over infation.

What was thier turn over this year , can you remind me ?

When companies put up prices constanrly over the rate of inflation , and thier turn over stays the same or falls, that company is looosing customers , or throwing money away.
And As GW plc is proud of its radical cost saving measures, IT MUST BE LOOSING CUSTOMERS.
And as the title of the thread asks if GW plc Pricing is driving a way young customers the answer is yes it is.

Also as thier gross margin is 76%.
That means the profit on every item is 76% ,excludng shiping and retail costs.

So it cost GW plc 24p out of every £1 of retail price to cover ALL overheads design, development, manufature , maintenence of assests etc.

In veiw of this GW plc with a turn over in exess of of 110M should be making a profit in exess of 70M allowing for logistic costings....

But GW plc are spending over 50M on thier own B&M stores...
If GW plc sold mainly through independant retailers ans the internet they couls HALF retail price and still make more gross profit.

Have you noticed how the sales break down of B&M stores-Independant retailers has suddenly vanished from the fiscal report?I wonder why?

Anyhow I agree many companies follow GW plc pricing, as it has allowed losts of companies room to flourish.(Many staffed by ex GW employees!)

The pricing on 28mm heroic mnatures may be similar to GW prices, but in most cases these minatures are for skirmish games so the over all cost is a fraction of what you have to pay to get a 'full game ' of 40k/WHFB.
The only company I know of making 28mm minatures for fictional setting 'battle games' of similar size to to GW , is Mantic .And they manufacture and price thier minatures for 'massed combat games'.(Eg appx 1/3 the cost of GW.)


In short.
The foundations are crubling the land lord is putting up the rent before the building eventualy collapses.However, notprop and the other remaining tennants still thinks the curtains look nice and the beds are quite comfortable....But more and more existing and would be new tennents are scared off by the high price of the rent and the funny creaking nioses from the basement.

Emerett wrote:Two more years and you can get a job

You can buy a surprisingly large amount of models if you have no expenses and spend all of your money on 40k.

Im 19. I live at home. Other the cell phone bill and food for school i have to convince myself to not buy for 40k.
My ego is getting a working negotiating between the id and superego.

You spelt lose as 'loose'.

Your argument is invalid.

Lanrak your assessment is still based upon one line in a report that encompasses many hundreds of lines of numbers. That doesn't seem like a very broad foundation to base such a sweeping prediction of doom on to me, but you appear to have an axe to grind with GW ergo spamming the same message in all GW threads. It's a little tiring to read the same thing over and over but by no means convincing.

The ironic thing is that your idea for GW slashing their prices (dropping the retail arm) would be the one that would see GW tank in a very short space of time. Without the shops their turnover would diminish overnight since the corner stone of their model (turnover of new players) would no longer exist for them on even a fraction of the volume.

Finally you also introduce the above inflation idea ignoring that manufacturing costs rise faster than base rates and taking an extrapolated price per unit rate from one year and applying that to 5 years down the line ignores the realities of the situation, like the differences in products and the way they are bundled and the prevailing economic conditions.

Lanrak wrote:HI notprop.
However , if you look at the over all picture from 2004-5 to now, the decline in sales is very evident.

Of course it is. Those years were middle of the LotR bubble.

Lanrak wrote:
When companies put up prices constanrly over the rate of inflation ,

Why should it follow inflation? CPI is only an average calculated from thousands of products and services whichs actual price changes range from negative to tens of %'s. Besides, CPI is pretty much a crock these days anyways, finetuned to produce low numbers to please politicians.

My other, unrelated hobby, has in recent years had price increases much much greater than GW has.

Hi guys.
I was simply pointing out that the current GW plc buisness plan that made perfect sense 20 years ago, is NOT working for them now and has not been for the last decade or so.

If GW plc did not get the LoTR licence they would have been in trouble a LOT sooner.

Before the LoTR bubble , 1999, GW plc had a turn over of 78 million.
Increasing this for infaltion this gives a turn over of 120m appx.
Wow you say , that is realy close to what it currently is , Lanrak you old grupmy old git,we are right!
But if you factor in the increases in retail prices over the rate of inflation for 13 years, oh dear me....GW plc have still lost over 40% of thier customer base...

GW plc painted themselves into a corner when they followed Kirbys ideas.
Instead of embracing the internet market in the late 1990s they called it a passing fad.And used thier B&M stores for isolationaist marketing.
But the internet has allowed more information to reach potential customers and GWs fortress wall has crumbled, and its moat looks a bit less daunting to cross.(Vets are escaping and newbs dont like the look of the tatty old castle any more. )

The GW plc corperate managment take the simplest path to short term profit ,even kirby had admitted they had become' fat and lazy with the easy sucess LoTR brought them'.

When I talked about the massive milstone the chain of B&M stores ARE.It was to point out the poor desision Kirby made in the late 1990s by hoping the internt was a passing fad.
And the fact the sales breakdown has dissapeard from the latest report , probably proove the retail arm of GW plc is not as necissary as GW plc corperate belive it to be.
(No other games company needs one!)

The ONLY way back for GW plc is to improve the percieved value for money of th 'GW hobby' (tm).
But that would mean listening to those staff in the GW studio.

You know those bunch of talented artists that drove GW to greatness and doubed its turn over every 3 years from 1989 to 1998....untill Kirby started calling the shots on game development. and minature releases.. .

'..we are investing heavily in plastic pruduction to lower the cost of entry to our fun and rewarding hobby...' GW studio staff .

'...the material a minature is made out of doesnt matter, white metal or plastic , the customer pays for what it represents on the table top....' corperate justification of the pricing of 'Goldswords',,,

I think the GW studio staff and stores staff are in general, very talented and passionate about what they do.
If it wasnt for the shortsighted and incompetant actions of the corperate managment at GW plc, every one would be alot better off.

Kirbys original focus on minature sales to recoup his money from the managmnet buy out, seems to have overwhelmed everything else with devastating reprocussions.

As reguards to over head costings , in GW plc own fiscal report the state gross margins at 76%.
So as manufacturing costs are part of this , along with wages, asset depreciation asset managment etc, EVERYTHING except retail and logistic costings.

The manufacturung cost can not be a massive factor.
My mate who works at GW Nottingham manufacturing plant, told me the material used in manufactureing Citadel Minatures cost less than 4% of the retail price.( And the packaging is far more expencive than the raw material for casting!),

The only thing eating into the gross margins at an ever increasing rate is GW plcs chain of B&M stores.
(Thats why they converted some stores to one man stores and moved some shops to lower foot fall areas.Which reduced the efficiency of the retail outlets even more!)

Ill stop there for the white knights and appologists to defend GW plc corperate.
(Lets face it those on saleries of over £150k and getting HUGE amounts in share bonuses need your suport dont they?)

I can see what you are getting at but at this point I don't think that there is enough evidence to back up what you are indicating. It also reads far too emotively to be taken too seriously (see the last paragraph - agree with me or be a white knight or apologist, classy!).

So Lanrak you seem to be picking out specific details to fit your idea of things. Sorry, its not convincing be who cares I'm just trying to discuss what's happening, er I meant white knighting!

There is some extra trimming (and perhaps some cranberry sauce) in terms of what Lanrak is saying sure, but the meat & veg of what he has pointed out I think is pretty much dead on.

I think it's possible to argue whether or not GW's policies have made good business sense, and even whether they have necessarily been a good thing for the customer, but the facts themselves concerning those policies will be familiar to anyone who has followed the company closely over the years.

Lanrak wrote:Hi guys.
I was simply pointing out that the current GW plc buisness plan that made perfect sense 20 years ago, is NOT working for them now and has not been for the last decade or so.

If GW plc did not get the LoTR licence they would have been in trouble a LOT sooner.

Before the LoTR bubble , 1999, GW plc had a turn over of 78 million.
Increasing this for infaltion this gives a turn over of 120m appx.
Wow you say , that is realy close to what it currently is , Lanrak you old grupmy old git,we are right!
But if you factor in the increases in retail prices over the rate of inflation for 13 years, oh dear me....GW plc have still lost over 40% of thier customer base...

GW plc painted themselves into a corner when they followed Kirbys ideas.
Instead of embracing the internet market in the late 1990s they called it a passing fad.And used thier B&M stores for isolationaist marketing.
But the internet has allowed more information to reach potential customers and GWs fortress wall has crumbled, and its moat looks a bit less daunting to cross.(Vets are escaping and newbs dont like the look of the tatty old castle any more. )

The GW plc corperate managment take the simplest path to short term profit ,even kirby had admitted they had become' fat and lazy with the easy sucess LoTR brought them'.

When I talked about the massive milstone the chain of B&M stores ARE.It was to point out the poor desision Kirby made in the late 1990s by hoping the internt was a passing fad.
And the fact the sales breakdown has dissapeard from the latest report , probably proove the retail arm of GW plc is not as necissary as GW plc corperate belive it to be.
(No other games company needs one!)

The ONLY way back for GW plc is to improve the percieved value for money of th 'GW hobby' (tm).
But that would mean listening to those staff in the GW studio.

You know those bunch of talented artists that drove GW to greatness and tripled its turn over every 3 years from 1989 to 1998....untill Kirby started calling the shots on game development. and minature releases.. .

'..we are investing heavily in plastic pruduction to lower the cost of entry to our fun and rewarding hobby...' GW studio staff .

'...the material a minature is made out of doesnt matter, white metal or plastic , the customer pays for what it represents on the table top....' corperate justification of the pricing of 'Goldswords',,,

I think the GW studio staff and stores staff are in general, very talented and passionate about what they do.
If it wasnt for the shortsighted and incompetant actions of the corperate managment at GW plc, every one would be alot better off.

Kirbys original focus on minature sales to recoup his money from the managmnet buy out, seems to have overwhelmed everything else with devastating reprocussions.

As reguards to over head costings , in GW plc own fiscal report the state gross margins at 76%.
So as manufacturing costs are part of this , along with wages, asset depreciation asset managment etc, EVERYTHING except retail and logistic costings.

The manufacturung cost can not be a massive factor.
My mate who works at GW Nottingham manufacturing plant, told me the material used in manufactureing Citadel Minatures cost less than 4% of the retail price.( And the packaging is far more expencive than the raw material for casting!),

The only thing eating into the gross margins at an ever increasing rate is GW plcs chain of B&M stores.
(Thats why they converted some stores to one man stores and moved some shops to lower foot fall areas.Which reduced the efficiency of the retail outlets even more!)

Ill stop there for the white knights and appologists to defend GW plc corperate.
(Lets face it those on saleries of over £150k and getting HUGE amounts in share bonuses need your suport dont they?)

Show us on the doll where Mr Kirby touched you.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:I dont see kids playing GW very much. In fact Im pretty sure Im the youngest guy who plays at my FLGS, and im 22. I think the next youngest is 25. So where do people get 13-15? Is my store just an oddity and the rest overran by kids?

Well I'm 12, nearly 13 though, and the 'kids' at my store are quite annoying. especially on sundays in those damned begginner sessions... Although I might just think that because according to my friends im a gogh, or depressed, they'll use any excuse to make fun of me.

Dey meanz yer a Goff. Itza Com-Plee-Ment

It makes yer dead 'ard and big and grim

Goffs is da bestest Orkz

Hi folks.
Simply look at GW plcs turn over vs the rate of increase in GW plcs retail prices.For the last 2, or 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 or 7 or 8 or 9 or 10 or 11 years.

GW plc ARE loosing sales volume/customers at an ever increasing rate.

Why would anyone think GW plc are doing things right when they are clearly loosing customers.
And this is the topic we are discussing.GW plc are driving away customers with thier rediculous pricing .

The white knights simpy assume GW plc are justified with thier actions.And use circular logic and spout the self forfiling phrophicies GW plc use to justify thier inane buisness decisions.

To know why I hold Mr Tom Kirby in such low regard, read that ' little red book.'

notprop.
Note the .

What did I tell you about 'loosing'?

Neurgh... (it's my biggest spelling peeve)

Lanrak wrote:Hi folks.
Simply look at GW plcs turn over vs the rate of increase in GW plcs retail prices.For the last 2, or 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 or 7 or 8 or 9 or 10 or 11 years.

GW plc ARE loosing sales volume/customers at an ever increasing rate.

Why would anyone think GW plc are doing things right when they are clearly loosing customers.
And this is the topic we are discussing.GW plc are driving away customers with thier rediculous pricing .

The white knights simpy assume GW plc are justified with thier actions.And use circular logic and spout the self forfiling phrophicies GW plc use to justify thier inane buisness decisions.

To know why I hold Mr Tom Kirby in such low regard, read that ' little red book.'

notprop.
Note the .

Must you really keep telling us this ?
I dont realy care, i like the game and will keep playing it and buying minis for it.
Maybe go and take your personal crusade against mr Kirby to a GW and protest outside ?

Hi Rayvon.
Is the title of this thread 'Do you like playing 40k,/Are you happy paying current GW plcs prices?'
No it is not.

I keep pointing out the FACTS from GW plc OWN finacial reports, when people ask about the current buisness practice and if it having s detrimental effect on GW plc customer base.
As facts and figures from a offical fiscal reports seem to be a better place to find the truth than , anecdotal evidence.

If you dont care about the pricing and GW plc buisness policy , Why did you post in this thread?(As anything I or others say about it is totaly irrelevent to you.)

One person acceptance of a pricing structure , simply means they have not reached thier personal limit of pricing elasticity.(Fact.)

And as GW plc is increasing prices by larger amounts to make up for greater looses sales volumes.(Fact.)
Some may reach thier limits sooner than they expect.

Unles you are saying you will pay ANY price for GW plc products.Eg £100 for a box of 10 plastic Space Marines, may be perfectly reasonable to you.
(In which case you are totaly desrveing of GW plc current atitudes towards you , and its current buisness policies.)


And why would I expend time and effort in a futile protest outside GW plc?
I withdrew my finacial support for GW plc years ago in protest.(And that is the only protest GW plc corperate seem to understand.)

It really is a matter of basic arithmetic

Revenue = price X units sold.

If Revenue says flat and price goes up, the only thing that can happen is unit sales going down.

The answer to the question of this thread is a resounding yes. GW's prices have indeed become a barrier to more and more people and while some parents will buy their kids anything,

I think GW needs their retail stores now though. The need to keep churning people through with the demo sales process. People don't stick around when it comes to being a GW customer and they need the constant influx of first purchasers who buy a starter, paints, codex, battleforce, etc.,. The independent retailers may be more efficient at actually moving products, but I still think a large amount of their sales volume comes from their direct sales.

They've also been concentrating on reducing the cost of their direct sales. Switching to one employee retail locations, for example.

Kids are just going to buy stuff then drop it and go back to video gaming a week later.

Lanrak wrote:Hi Rayvon.
Is the title of this thread 'Do you like playing 40k,/Are you happy paying current GW plcs prices?'
No it is not.

Yeah but the title is misleading, if you read the OP.

To paraphase...

I used to have a serious Loveheart addiction. I then didn't touch then for thirty years. Have you seen the price of Lovehearts these days? How can kids today afford them?

It's a Swizzell.

When I was a kid and first encountered 40k it was the game that adults with money played. Now that I am an adult and can afford to play....not much has changed. The value of most national currencies has dropped over the last two decades so it doesn't surprise me that prices have gone up as a negative reciprocal.

@ Lanark

The corporation is going to do what the investment holders are going to dictate. People young and old are still going to play this game.

Every person posting on a site lives in a different part of the world. They report aspects of the hobby (in this case) from their view point.

And rational people will make assessments on what types of information is realistic or not.

I'm just sitting back and enjoying the ride myself. Interesting read overall.

Looking at the recent UK Budget, I'm beginning to think GW is using UK government tax increases on cigarettes and alcohol as a template for their own price increases!

Im 15 and ive been in the hobby for 1 1/2 to 2 years. I have 3500 points of orks and 400 points and growing of space marines, a badger airbrush, lots of paints, a dremel, and many other accessories. But the thing is I work and my parents have bought nothing for me ( besides x-mas and b-day) I walk dogs and mow lawns and it works just fine for me. So not all kids in the hobby are reliant on their parents for cash.
-Drew

Good man, keep it up.

Drew14 wrote:Im 15 and ive been in the hobby for 1 1/2 to 2 years. I have 3500 points of orks and 400 points and growing of space marines, a badger airbrush, lots of paints, a dremel, and many other accessories. But the thing is I work and my parents have bought nothing for me ( besides x-mas and b-day) I walk dogs and mow lawns and it works just fine for me. So not all kids in the hobby are reliant on their parents for cash.
-Drew

I'm 17 and I'm not at all reliant on parents/family for hobby stuff. I do commissions to fund my addiction, which is ironic as I spend so much time painting other peoples stuff that I cannot ever find time to paint my own stuff!

_Tim?

If you think about it this actually may be the cheaper option for children. Youd be surprised how much things like summer camp or a sports activity cost and its cheaper to drop them off at the hobby store on weekends or after school and let them play games all day rather than pay weekly or monthly for someone to watch them (plus cost of uniforms, doctor visits, etc.

keisukekun wrote:If you think about it this actually may be the cheaper option for children. Youd be surprised how much things like summer camp or a sports activity cost and its cheaper to drop them off at the hobby store on weekends or after school and let them play games all day rather than pay weekly or monthly for someone to watch them (plus cost of uniforms, doctor visits, etc.

I dunno about that. I did a lot of mountain biking as a youngling and after the initial very high investment of the bike, it was only $20 for a new chain every few months. Maybe a set of tires or new shocks once a year. Sure was a lot cheaper than wargaming.

Having a mother with medical experience helped prevent doctor bills however.


Most other hobbies don't require constant reinvestment like 40k does.

I'm annoyed if they are marketing towards kids and teens. Warhammer 40k and WHFM should be a game for adults. All the people I know who are majorly into it are adults.

You're naive if you think they aren't and they are because it is their established target market.

But outside of their accounts and investor material where this is stated the biggest give away is the toy soldiers they sell with the games.