TL;DR: Haters are gonna hate. EDIT: I had a bad encounter with a guy who didn't like the game (40k) I was playing, and decided to be a jerk about it.
I offer a demo service to my FLGS for 40k. It's a self-made volunteer thing, with hopes of increasing interest in 40k at the store; this'll hopefully attract new people to the store/game, which will increase sales, which will increase the support for 40k at the store, as well as build up a community of players.. That said, there's other games at the store, Warmachine/Hordes and Malifaux being far more popular. This is evident, as the PP and Wyrd sections are fully stocked, whereas the GW section is tucked into a sort of corner.
Unlike most gamers I've encountered, I love 40k, but I also understand why people play Warmahordes and Malifaux (abreviated to W/H/M). I have explained to every "demo-ee" that 40k is on the expensive side, and that it's understandable if they can't collect. I let them know that the other games are more affordable, and it might also interest them; either way, they can always borrow one of my armies to play 40k. I also always tell them that it's perfectly okay to collect more than one game system. This is how I roll. As well as all this, I emphasize to my players, that if they are going to play 40k at the store, being competitive is a quick way to get ostracized. The store is for casual gaming only, whether its Malifaux, PP, M:TG, Board Games or Lan games. The exceptions are tournaments, of course.
Yesterday, I was eating lunch, and the store called me in; someone had found out about my demo service from a google search (exciting!). I went over and met the guy (we'll call him Mercutio), and had a small chat. We declared a 1000 point game, nids vs Vanilla Marines, and I took a few minutes to build my list.
And that's when the hating started...
Unsurprisingly, there were a few W/H/M players who raised brows in our setup; they hadn't ever seen a 40k game, or it had been very long; this always happens, because 40k isn't often played at the store (which is what I'm trying to change). Of course, what also happens every time are the comments; former 40k players will denounce GW, and those who have never played will openly complain about the prices; this happens without provocation. Every time.
Still, some W/H/M are people who like the game system (what a shock, I know /sarcasm) and wanted to play 40k, but couldn't for any reason (price, lack of opponents, etc). One particular guy we'll call him Maximus) was happy to announce he had quit collecting 40k, but later showed interest in our game, the models, the fluff, the tactics, etc. This is also normal, the whole "denounce because its cool, but can't help showing positive interest."
Now, so far, there's always been this negativity from non-GW players at the store; however, hate as they might, they never attempt to convince players to quit 40k and play something else; their steam comes from explaining why THEY quit. That is, until yesterday.
While setting up, a regular Malifaux player (we'll call him Leonidas) walked into the gaming section, and found all three large tables had been taken up, and the two small tables had gear on it (one had W/H stuff, the other had Mercutio's and my stuff). Lately, the section has been empty every Thursday (minis night); Most W/H/M players were back in school/taking a break, and everything else was simply not played often. This upset Leonidas, and he noted aloud rather loudly "great, one warmachine, one 40k," in the sort of tone that says "who the are these guys?" I ignored it. Later, as we were playing, Maximus commented on how he'd like to collect Malifaux. Leonidas' response was to sell any 40k crap he had; a sure way for Maximus to afford Malifaux. At that point, I realized, Leonidas had something against 40k. Again, I ignored him.
The worst came at the end. Mercutio and I had had a great game, which ended in a draw and some awesome moments with a Carnifex and his ASoB Termies. Mercutio had some questions about my idea of building a community; he wanted to help, because he wanted sizeable community to play with. Then, out of the blue, Leonidas flat out interrupts us. He tells Mercutio "hey, if you want a good community, forget about 40k and join Malifaux." Mercutio and I paused, stared at him... and ignored him. I could tell he wasn't happy, and it was obvious neither was I.
Thankfully, Mercutio left on great terms; he wanted to help, so I told him to merely advertise. He was concerned about the fact that he had to leave for 6 months, but I told him it'd be fine, and that the community would be here beyond that time, i.e. I was making it to last. We shook hands, and he left satisfed, but wanting more. Despite that, I couldn't shake what had just happened. I was upset, and even fed up; Since I've joined the store's community, the amount of negativity for 40k has been a bombardment. No one could simply accept that it was what I played, they all have to insert their stabbing comments.
Which brings me to Dakka, because it's the same thing here. I often times see people entering 40k discussions, purely to insert how much they hate the game, hate the prices, and hate GW. I find most of these people are old veterans of the game, who remember playing 2nd ed. Naturally, when a game system changes radically, people are going to get upset. The mistake is assuming the new is bad. The new is different, but to a new player, it's still new.
Which brings me to my other point: I've grown used to ignoring this, but what about new players? They don't know your old system. They don't know about what it used to cost. They see the game, and like it for what it is now, and enjoy it. Why are you trying to get them to see it your way, what good does it serve? "They are wrong, and I must tell them they are wrong?" That's low. "I must inform them of all the horrible things they are about to embark." Why? Let them be, if it's what they like.
So ultimately, my point is haters are gonna hate, but nothing's worse than a hater trying to convince a lover to be a hater. Hate on your own.
EDIT:
It's been said a few times in the thread, so I'd like to let everyone know that I did indeed talk to the store owner. He, like me, was not happy to hear this.
I offered that he not talk to Leonidas just yet (benefit of the doubt, maybe he had a bad day?), but I let the owner understand that 40k does get quite a bit of flak from other store goers. He told me he'd discourage any such talk from then on.
Mind you, the number of 40k players now outnumbers any other miniature's group, due to my meetups. Still, I make it a point to remind my new players not to be negative towards other games, but instead be open minded and interested.
And if its not their cup of tea, to understand that those who do play it, do in fact enjoy it.
Well, some areas just aren't going to like certain games.
The same goes for where I am. One store is Warmachine, Malifaux, FoW - hell, there was even a Wargods demo that was well received. 40k tried to get a foothold, but no one wanted to play.
And yet at another store, you only find Fantasy and 40k. Warmachine never took off, and they didn't like the rules for either Infinity or Flames of War.
And again at another store, there's a vibrant Warmachine/Hordes group, and a decent 40k group.
beigeknight wrote:The names were a mix of Romeo and Juliet, Gladiator, and 300. That would make a sweet movie....
Juliet: Romeo, Romeo. Where art thou Romeo?
Leonidas: *Kicks Juliet off balocny* THIS IS SPARTAAAAA!
Maximus: ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?!
I know I would be.
As to the OP, ignoring the jerks really is the best policy. If you think they will listne to reason like adults and you can communicate the fact that they are annoying you then I would try that. If you are over 18 beating them up could land you in jail so I would try to stay away from that one.
One of the problems is that some people don't appreciate that its possible to love the game and hate the company.
I've played GW games since I was 11 [cue Dvoraks 'new world symphony' and sepia shots of cobbled streets ], I've worked for GW, I still play (indeed I've got the guys coming round tomorrow for a full day 40k session ).
BUT, I find some of their corporate policies -shall we say distasteful.
If I was talking to a beginner I would answere every question truthfully and would give my opinion if asked - but I would make it clear that it was my personal opinion. Would my recommendation be that somebody start 40k these days? Perhaps not, or at least any recommendation would carry a heavy dose of caveat emptor, but I would never dream of telling anyone that they shouldn't do something they want to do and would offer support to any beginner - the more gamers the better and I couldn't care less what they play, as long as they're good to hang out with
Guy sounds like a proper bell-end. Have you seen how fething important games are are to some dweebs though?! Its hardly surprising behaviour.
I'd just call Leonidas out on his childish behaviour by being equally childish and verbally telling him so. feth all these notions of manners and gak if a stranger is waltzing over and giving you guys gak.
The guy sounds like a proper sad bastard. Why not just tell him this to his face? "If you hate 40k so much, don't play or collect it, ignore it. But don't waltz over here and embark on an epic whinging session because you sound like a little girl. I don't complain about Warmahordes or Malifaux or Heroquest or whatever the feth other people play these days, so why not give me the same courtesy? You like whiskey I like gin? Fairy nuff, but you don't see me going on epic multi award winning rants about how glorious and intense and flavoursome Gin is, and that if you prefer whisky you must have brain damage. I don't support Manchester United but I don't walk over to gangs of their fans in public places and tell them that they are a bunch of losers and they should sell all of their shirts and convert to fething Islam instead... Jesus! Get a fething life.. "
Only Mattyrm would run into a group of Football fans and tell them all to convert to Islam.
Anyway, I have to agree with Mattyrm. Just tell the guy that you don't rip on his game, so he shouldn't rip on yours. And if this guy is being this much of an donkey-cave, call the owner of the store over to talk to this guy.
Knights-Abhorrent wrote:MOD Y U NO EDIT OTHER "NONE-WARGAME IMAGES" ?!
Dammit, Haters ARE gunna hate... ¬¬
Because neither of the others are hosted on Dakka?
Moving on...
I've encountered a few people like this in my time. One is still allowed to like a game even if they find the company abhorrent. Weirdly I'm feeling a little iffy about myself as Warmahordes is getting a little too... intense for my tastes ATM and I want to kick back a little with a game that is less pressure on the old noggin. That's where 40k comes in, but I am not GW's biggest fan ATM. It just feels a little hypocritical (even though I know it's not) to do it.
While I think you make some valid observations/points I have to be honest that your thread title makes me want to stone you to death [/joke]
That phrase is like a modern hipster version of Godwyn's Law. The only response to a thread named that is an equally daft "Cool story bro", and that wouldnt really doing much to elevate the discourse taking place now would it?
Quick: rename your thread and save it from an embarrassing end...
You'll find those types. We tried to get FOW started at our LGS and one of the regulars constantly brow beat anyone showing an interest so most gave up on it. Real shame too as the store owner fully stocked his shelves in anticipation of the system getting off the ground. The blisters are now on a 30% off rack.
Boss GreenNutz wrote:You'll find those types. We tried to get FOW started at our LGS and one of the regulars constantly brow beat anyone showing an interest so most gave up on it. Real shame too as the store owner fully stocked his shelves in anticipation of the system getting off the ground. The blisters are now on a 30% off rack.
That's even worse than my experience. I feel for you.
The biggest deterrent to WM/H building up a following here is the players.
The game is fine, the models are fine. The players are blow-hards. They play 2nd ed WM/H, but have evidently not read the changed text on p5 - and how it differs from the previous one.
On the bright side, it has taken all of the passive/aggressive and loon 40k and other players away from those games and made their groups better (some folks brighten a room by walking into it, others by leaving.).
Local FLGS has a core of 40k and WM/H players and they absolutely hate on Infinity. Saying it needs "too much terrain" (we only take all of their terrain when NO-ONE else is in the store - and we even went to the extent of bringing our own and they still complained.) or that the models are too cheesecake (yeah, neckbeards complaining about cheesecake? WTF? Given the way they drool whenever a moderately attractive woman walks past ) or the system is broken because EVERYONE has overwatch (which is why the terrain density is so high). If you put your guy into the firelanes of 12 enemy models, EXPECT to get filled full'o'lead.
Most of the players of infinity in my area are gaming vets with two decades of gaming under their belts. They ALREADY have the terrain, so for us it's not a deterrent. With the amount of hate we get from the local whoremachine crowd, it's no wonder we set up our own club, where we could play in peace, and have beer at the same time (Can't have beer in the FLGS)
I find most of these people are old veterans of the game, who remember playing 2nd ed. Naturally, when a game system changes radically, people are going to get upset. The mistake is assuming the new is bad. The new is different, but to a new player, it's still new.
Uhm count me as an exception / minority?
I loved 2nd ed but do not hate 5th or GW or the current GW policies.
I think 5th is decent, pretty good but darn flawed in places. However......
I dont agree with everything they do and yes they make some stupid/frustrating corporate mistakes but (and My Jaysus I dont mean this facetiously) they still do a Goddam decent product.
You are right though in essences, Haters Gonna Hate.
I loved RT, liked 2nd Ed, 3rd was ok, 4th was too i guess, and i like 5th (though it needs a few things addressed).
I'm not a huge fan of GW's corporate side.
Their design studio and sculptors are by and large awesome though. I enjoy the game, despite the guys that own it. I just get on with having fun, and try to ignore the crippling idiocies of the corporation
Like I said, its the gamers I've encountered, ie, in real life. I'm glad there's some folk out there who can accept change, but often times, I encounter many a former 40k player who says "X edition was better."
In excellent news, my demos have caused an explosion of interest in the game, and the store goers are abuzz about it.
There are idiots everywhere. I have had a little circle of fanatics attempt to ban all other games than 40k in a gaming club where WM/H had been growing for some time. These days WM/H, WHFB, Infinity and Epic is what allows their club to have enough money to rent somewhere to play...I've had a lunatic edit and delete posts on his favorite game as a moderator because he did not have any answers to the questions posed and then scream like a little kid at me over PMs.
chromedog wrote:
Local FLGS has a core of 40k and WM/H players and they absolutely hate on Infinity. Saying it needs "too much terrain" (we only take all of their terrain when NO-ONE else is in the store - and we even went to the extent of bringing our own and they still complained.) or that the models are too cheesecake (yeah, neckbeards complaining about cheesecake? WTF? Given the way they drool whenever a moderately attractive woman walks past ) or the system is broken because EVERYONE has overwatch (which is why the terrain density is so high). If you put your guy into the firelanes of 12 enemy models, EXPECT to get filled full'o'lead.
Most of the players of infinity in my area are gaming vets with two decades of gaming under their belts. They ALREADY have the terrain, so for us it's not a deterrent. With the amount of hate we get from the local whoremachine crowd, it's no wonder we set up our own club, where we could play in peace, and have beer at the same time (Can't have beer in the FLGS)
When you use terms like the one bolded I cannot but imagine that these foul 40k and WmH players might have other issues with you than that you use too much of their terrain (just saying). Which Infinity does, of course. We ate 4-6 tables worth of 40k/WHFB/WmH terrain when we ran our first Infinity games; it was pretty obvious to us, with the current 14-20 people playing at the store every wednesday, that we needed to bring our own stuff to the store or risk being irritations for everybody else in the store, So, we are building up a in-store stock of Infinity exclusive terrain (MaS/Antenociti/Sarisssa/Others) which will likely help with recruitment as well.
Shadelkan wrote: and those who have never played will openly complain about the prices; this happens without provocation. Every time.
.
That's a valid criticism. Although I agree with your main point, certainly around these parts GW does seem to have a rather negative perception (usually among anyone who is in their late teens or older), perhaps similar to the kind of reputation that EA has within the game software industry, of a cash-guzzling giant that (coincidentally) cares little for its 'art'.
But I agree anyway the guy sounds like a bit of an idiot and social misfit, just ignore him until he goes away
The guy seems very sad inside. Maybe he once played 40k and hasn't one a single game of it ever. Driven insane by his failures, he melted all his models and took up the nearest thing he could find. He hunts 40k players to this day in some shadow of revenge to try and fix his ego.
Then again, he's more likely to just be a chaos worshiper
Personally I've never understood the whole 40K Players vs Malifaux Players vs Warmachine Players vs whatever thing.
Where I play it's a club of Gamers.
We all play various games and respect what each other is playing. But from reading Dakka it sounds like respect is missing from many other clubs and stores.
I don't know what age group others game with or if that even makes a difference. While our club does have younger members I would say the majority are 40+, with the age range going from 10-70.
At our club there are lots of games played like 7TV, Malifaux, RPGs, Historical Wargames, Battle Masters, and loads of Board Games. I guess the most popular games are 40K, Heroclix and Flames of War. Hmm... Heroclix. I guess a club where CMG games are popular wouldn't see 40K as expensive.
I have never really experienced anything from other war gamers. The worst I've had was from magic players and unbelievably from other 40k players shouting faction prejudice. They can be really rude. I try and mix with everyone so every group know me and I know everyone and what they play too. It helps relate when you can talk about the newest update of there main game with them.
Another advantage is that you have friends in each group, if someone is giving you pain, they can stand up too and put them down. Since they play the same game, respect is shared.
Next time he belittles your game, tell him to cheer up, its only a game.
Bottom line is, some people suck, unfortunately, he does sound like a miserable chap indeed.
Ugavine wrote:Personally I've never understood the whole 40K Players vs Malifaux Players vs Warmachine Players vs whatever thing.
Where I play it's a club of Gamers.
We all play various games and respect what each other is playing. But from reading Dakka it sounds like respect is missing from many other clubs and stores.
I don't know what age group others game with or if that even makes a difference. While our club does have younger members I would say the majority are 40+, with the age range going from 10-70.
I agree completely. I really can't understand the whole 'either/or' mentality towards gaming systems. It almost reminds me in a way of the old 16-bit wars, with people either choosing a SNES or Megadrive, and then being massively disparaging about anything on the other system (even though they secretly wanted to have a go!)
I collect and play half a dozen different games, and usually focus on one or another depending on whatever mood takes me. Although the 40k players at my club have the highest proportion of unassembled/unpainted armies, I think generally that is because they tend to be younger. From my experience, in their mid to late teens they start to discover other games/systems and branch out from there.
Ugavine wrote:Personally I've never understood the whole 40K Players vs Malifaux Players vs Warmachine Players vs whatever thing.
Where I play it's a club of Gamers.
We all play various games and respect what each other is playing. But from reading Dakka it sounds like respect is missing from many other clubs and stores.
I don't know what age group others game with or if that even makes a difference. While our club does have younger members I would say the majority are 40+, with the age range going from 10-70.
I agree completely. I really can't understand the whole 'either/or' mentality towards gaming systems. It almost reminds me in a way of the old 16-bit wars, with people either choosing a SNES or Megadrive, and then being massively disparaging about anything on the other system (even though they secretly wanted to have a go!)
I collect and play half a dozen different games, and usually focus on one or another depending on whatever mood takes me. Although the 40k players at my club have the highest proportion of unassembled/unpainted armies, I think generally that is because they tend to be younger. From my experience, in their mid to late teens they start to discover other games/systems and branch out from there.
I was firmly in Camp Nintendo until mortal kombat came out, then Sega all the way
Ive seen the ' label which I will not repeat ' used as a a knee-jerk label by GW fans in response to valid points of criticism .
This guy was being a jerk - it happens within GW games systems - ive seen plenty of ill thought out and selfish rants about LotR from WHFB players - the 'label which I will not repeat ' could be used against them too .
See, that is funny, because I like 40k and can't stand the look of Malifaux.
He should feth off. Seriously. I mean, I honestly can't stand 8th edition fantasy (as much as I try...), but my friend loves it. I don't tell him to quite fantasy and solely play 40k (although I do bug him to play more ). Honestly, I think the GW haters are sometimes WORSE than the fanboys.
Most people who quit GW games to go to other, just as expensive tabletop gaming options, will always voice their hate, simply because they have no reason to love the game anymore.
Spoiler:
It's the same way I gave up playing sports. (soccer/football in this example) I was put on the only team with all the fatties, I mean ALL of them. Here I was at 12-14 years old, weighing only double digits in pounds (hell my doctor told me to eat junk food) and I was playing with these guys. Good guys mind you. Yet as expected, most were slow, lost all steam by half time, some didn't even try. We never won a game, and only tied one match. Here I was trying, all season long, giving pass after pass, taking shot after shot, defending our worthless goalie, and basically ending every game having given my all.
But I berate my teammates from time to time, and it all started when I noticed a player SITTING ON THE FIELD. I mean the ball rolled within 12 feet of his ass. I was never mean, but I told them to keep moving. Turns out they didn't like that.
So I was thought of as a glory hog for trying to do everything, for being all over the field. At the end of the season, when awards were given out, I noticed I got nothing. Not a single stupid piece of ribbon, nothing. I gave my all that summer, a season of slaughter that I had to endure. I had nothing but rage to show for it. So in the end, I never went back, and never gave a damn again, furthermore making sure people knew I didn't give a damn.
TLDR: Things being bad enough for a while, and leaving before they get better keeps you in the mindset the whole thing is gak.
juraigamer wrote:Most people who quit GW games to go to other, just as expensive tabletop gaming options, will always voice their hate, simply because they have no reason to love the game anymore.
Spoiler:
It's the same way I gave up playing sports. (soccer/football in this example) I was put on the only team with all the fatties, I mean ALL of them. Here I was at 12-14 years old, weighing only double digits in pounds (hell my doctor told me to eat junk food) and I was playing with these guys. Good guys mind you. Yet as expected, most were slow, lost all steam by half time, some didn't even try. We never won a game, and only tied one match. Here I was trying, all season long, giving pass after pass, taking shot after shot, defending our worthless goalie, and basically ending every game having given my all.
But I berate my teammates from time to time, and it all started when I noticed a player SITTING ON THE FIELD. I mean the ball rolled within 12 feet of his ass. I was never mean, but I told them to keep moving. Turns out they didn't like that.
So I was thought of as a glory hog for trying to do everything, for being all over the field. At the end of the season, when awards were given out, I noticed I got nothing. Not a single stupid piece of ribbon, nothing. I gave my all that summer, a season of slaughter that I had to endure. I had nothing but rage to show for it. So in the end, I never went back, and never gave a damn again, furthermore making sure people knew I didn't give a damn.
TLDR: Things being bad enough for a while, and leaving before they get better keeps you in the mindset the whole thing is gak.
If your coach didn't even attempt to give you an award, you can't fully blame your team-even though they sound truly awful. The couch was a giant douche-waffle too. He/she should have recognized your effort, and not doing so was uncalled for as an adult. While I support sports (I played soccer all through highschool, plus pick-up basketball games, racketball, tennis, volleyball, bowling), you were right to leave a team of jackasses like that. And the coach is part of that team too, but he/she should be fired-somebody like that does not deserve to be coaching. And the guy sitting on the field should have been thrown out of the game by the coach. Unless he was <7 years old. Then I guess it's forgivable. Anything above 7-8, sitting on the field DURING the game is unacceptable. He deserved to be cleated. Rant over.
It's a shame when some butthole ruins things for everyone - the story on the previous page about FOW getting blown out of the water by a single guy who wizzes on everyone else's bonfire just goes to show how much of a problem it can me. Absolutely hate it.
Personally I am happy to tell people my views on pretty much anything if they asked me. I'd never mooch over to someone playing game X and start going on how crap it was, and how company X makes rubbish rules, horrible models and kills kittens by beating them to death with puppies though...
Being a douchebag is not linked to any particular like or dislike that a person has, it is linked to that person being a douchebag, and the douche will show through whether they are a golfer who likes to whack his balls with a certain brand of metal stick or a wargamer who likes to play with X brand of space dollies instead of Y brand of space dollies.
All you can do at the end of the day is to make sure your own behaviour is fine, that way, the douchebag looks like the odd one out and people start to notice.
Also, being nice in response actually annoys the living crap out of people who are trying to get a rise out of you. Works just as well online as it does IRL.
. Of course, what also happens every time are the comments; former 40k players will denounce GW, and those who have never played will openly complain about the prices; this happens without provocation. Every time.
Sure the guy that interrupted you 2 was a douche, but:
1- If i were to start a hobby, specially an overly expensive one, i would welcome the advice of the local community.
2- I think you are mistaking an attack, with a REALITY.
These elitist camps are a rather pathetic way for someone to try and put themselves above others, they're in nearly everything really.
I myself don't like the outrageous prices, but I've found that I'd rather joke about them than start a complaint thread on Dakka; all the complaining would do is throw me onto a bunch of ignore lists.
chromedog wrote:The biggest deterrent to WM/H building up a following here is the players.
The game is fine, the models are fine. The players are blow-hards.
I was actually interested in playing WM/H with some of the locals until I heard the same from my FLGS owner. Basically, it's a great game, but it attracts the absolute worst of the worst. It's basically enter at your own risk. I'd rather play a flawed system with good people than a good system with donkey-caves.
Kaptajn Congoboy wrote: When you use terms like the one bolded I cannot but imagine that these foul 40k and WmH players might have other issues with you than that you use too much of their terrain
That one bolded term I got FROM one of those hallowed 40k and WM/H players you seem to speak so reverently about. THEY OPENLY refer to their game as such. They also freely use terms like "sl*t" and other less pleasant terms of reference to the "fairer" sex.
We no longer play in THEIR store. They can have it. We have a venue that's closer to me, has 20-odd infinity players a meet (alongside FoW, WHFB, SAGA, and KoW/Warpath), and we have beer. We don't need their store, and they aren't the sort who would be allowed into our venue (private hire of function room - but we still have to abide by the venue rules, and it has a very strict "Zero Tolerance" one on language.).
As I mentioned, we only used the terrain when none of them were playing anyway. So it had ZERO effect on their game playing (they play WM/H on wednesday nights (5-10pm), and 40k on Thursday nights (5-10pm) anyway. We were playing infinity on TUESDAY afternoons (12-3pm). No clash, no overlap, but still they complained. There weren't even any magic players in the store at that time. It's the slow day.
If anyone asks me about WHFB/40K, I discourage them from playing, but, well, no one asks me. I slag off on GW online, sure, but I wouldn't butt in on someone's 40K game or demo game and be all "Hurr durr ur game sux play (game x)."
I am surprised no one has advised about talking to the store owner about the guy.
If he does it once, he will keep doing it. It will sadly push people away. Store owners won't like it when people are pushing away others. I know one guy who banned a few magic players from the store because they other players couldn't stand his antics. It is better to lose 1-2 bad apples than to have them push away prospective customers.
Although I do kind of agree on Warmahordes players being... less than polite. Although we don't have many at the LGS I go to, it has been heard of. Luckily they wouldn't last long there either. Same would go with the 40k/whfb players.
Also, I do laugh when magic players say that 40k is too expensive for them. Most of their purchases end up costing more than the average 40k purchase (barring a few of us who spend a couple hundred at a time)
Ledabot wrote: from other 40k players shouting faction prejudice.
I don't get that at all . Faction prejudice is not only mind-numbingly fething stupid, it's made me consider giving the damn game up before.
I know what you mean. I haven’t ever one a game that badly that I hate people for it. I do wish that some of the more competitive people I play with would tone down there lists a bit, give me a fighting chance. I've found clubs a good source of different play styles that have helped me find a wider range of people to play with. I didn't stop people finding heaps of reasons why the guys I play should go die.
Ascalam wrote:I've found SOME Warmahordes players to be fething rude, but i've found more 40K players to be.
Maybe having a generally larger hobby means that more of the bad types get into the system. It seems so far that the amount of bad stuff we have heard about seems to be proportional to the popularity of the system they play.
Ascalam wrote:Neither is anywhere near as rude as some of the gak I’ve had from Magic Players or the Yu-Gi-Oh kids
our flgs is mostly taken up by card gamers. They never bat an eyelid at us. I guess were lucky. Heck if they did I'd probably make an extremely inside joke with them about the current metagame.
Magic gamers are worse than Warmachine gamers for me. Warmachine gamers have never tried to covnert me over because they know I don't like Steampunk stuff and I probably won't like the game.
Ooooo. I like them all. I like magic the least out of all the things I "like" though. A bit too hard core for me to get into easily. I would need 1k or so cards to have a chance I think. I did have a bad encounter with some magic players a long time ago where they threatened to tare out my spleen. I was young so I took it a bid literally I think.
I think that it's not the game that fosters douchebags. It's just... there's douchebags in every group, and most people associate the game/group with said douchebags. Same goes for religion, political parties, families, etc.
This is bad business. If you are at a FLGS then the owner, if he is a decent business owner (usually that is NOT the case) is going to be supportive of any and all business lines.
Talk to the owner about the static you are getting and have him tone the WM guys down. if he doesn't take your group where your custom is appreciated.
End of lesson.
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mattyrm wrote: Guy sounds like a proper bell-end. Have you seen how fething important games are are to some dweebs though?! Its hardly surprising behaviour.
I'd just call Leonidas out on his childish behaviour by being equally childish and verbally telling him so. feth all these notions of manners and gak if a stranger is waltzing over and giving you guys gak.
The guy sounds like a proper sad bastard. Why not just tell him this to his face? "If you hate 40k so much, don't play or collect it, ignore it. But don't waltz over here and embark on an epic whinging session because you sound like a little girl. I don't complain about Warmahordes or Malifaux or Heroquest or whatever the feth other people play these days, so why not give me the same courtesy? You like whiskey I like gin? Fairy nuff, but you don't see me going on epic multi award winning rants about how glorious and intense and flavoursome Gin is, and that if you prefer whisky you must have brain damage. I don't support Manchester United but I don't walk over to gangs of their fans in public places and tell them that they are a bunch of losers and they should sell all of their shirts and convert to fething Islam instead... Jesus! Get a fething life.. "
Or something..
What a tit.
Matty wins the thread. In my defense, in Texas, we'd just have a shootout in the middle of main street. Protip : Make sure all the horses are cleared out first.
chromedog wrote:That one bolded term I got FROM one of those hallowed 40k and WM/H players you seem to speak so reverently about.
So that makes it "right" for you to use it here? Seriously? I have read people on CB's forums call Infinity "Rambo bs" and heard WHFB players call their game "Dicehammer". That doesn't mean I go around trumpeting those names of forums as a way to label those games.
Oh and by the by why does everyone want to hate on you? I've noticed it on the Finecast posts, but cannot be bothered, because I know that the HBMC tag team GW haters will jump on my swede for being objective, rational and avoiding extremism.
The internet is a funny beast, it seems to breed extremism or to be polarising, it's like the perceived lack of responsibility for what people are saying allows you to say more and more perverse and extreme parodies of your personal thoughts and beliefs. This seems to be permeating into the real world. I have noticed this with my 15 year old nephew, he has grown up with the Internet and takes a shallow pride in slagging random people off on youtube etc. He had a crack at me at Christmas, I put him in his place and he continued to bate me. I told him to wind his neck in, but because my brother doesn't discipline him and spoils him, he see's everyone as paper tiger he continued to do so all day. I slapped him sideways, when he wasn't expecting it and told him if he carries on like that in public or into adulthood he's likely to be dead by 20. I think you need to teach discipline to Kids, they will always push the button, and they need a bit of shock to put them in their place and remind them they aren't all that. Plus Teenagers tend to be quite extreme in their outlook and temperament it leads to some very strange things.
I've taught him a life lesson and now he's a lot more respectful and lot less cocky, I have potentially saved him from harm in the future too. This is a compassionate thing to do, I don't want my nephew to be a brat, or a bad member of society. I want him to be a stand up young man, who does the right thing, treats people with respect and doesn't bring shame on our family name. I love him, of course, but in an Avuncular manner and it gives me no pride that he needed correcting but it was necessary to change him, and these are his formative years. I do take a keen interest in him, his aspirations etc, so it's really about confronting problems not letting them fester.
Matt you've probably seen the same at Lympstone, when cocky young'un's need breaking down to size to learn some respect and wind their neck in. It's difficult in the Wargaming environment to find, well adjusted, mannered youngsters who play, maybe we set bad examples? But seriously i think the lack of discipline in school at home, and within the family unit doesn't help and the unbridled freedom of expression without recourse that the internet provides is detrimental to a cohesive society, individuals lack of self awareness and treating people respectfully.
Oh and by the by why does everyone want to hate on you? I've noticed it on the Finecast posts, but cannot be bothered, because I know that the HBMC tag team GW haters will jump on my swede for being objective, rational and avoiding extremism.
Haha, alright mate, are you a matelot or in the corps?
Why does everyone hate on me? They don't really, but the thing is, there are maybe 5 or 6 really people on the board who seriously hate GW for no rational reason I can see, and when one of them pipes up during an argument with me, the other lot rock up almost straight away. Just watch me defend GW in even a minor way, and then that Portugese bloke and HBMC et all will rock up to the party and before you know it, its a cluster feth of rage and fury aimed at the bloke who dares to point out that he is merely impartial when it comes to GWs business practices.
I started getting more vocal when I saw how much they bully Kanluwen about it and its kinda gone from there because I like an argument. In short, its not everyone, its just 5 or 6 people who all rock up at once and stick together like I've just rammed my WMIK into the god damn Mahdi Army HQ.
Basically I struggle to understand it, and I apparently get called a "White Knight" (slang for a GW fanboy I believe) thanks to the fact that I am entirely impartial, only own maybe 3-4k worth of GW minis, and spend little time involved with the hobby. I didn't play for literally 12-15 years, as I did some wargaming aged 10-14, gave it up entirely when I was more interested in wine women and song, and then inexplicably picked it back up when I left the corps in 2009. I got a WD sub for Christmas, bought AOBR and the dwarves from BFSP and took it from there.
Read their posts however, and my genuine "I wont buy FC at the moment but surely it will get sorted out eventually" impartiality is read as "Matty is majority shareholder at GW and reports to Jervis at 0600hrs every second Monday to hum the national anthem with his balls in his mouth"
mattyrm wrote:Read their posts however, and my genuine "I wont buy FC at the moment but surely it will get sorted out eventually" impartiality is read as "Matty is majority shareholder at GW and reports to Jervis at 0600hrs every second Monday to hum the national anthem with his balls in his mouth"
I think you guys should take a look at it from another angle, many players see a FLGS and their group of potential opponents as a ZERO SUM number. So when they see someone who is potentially going to grow the group, if they don't choose *YOUR* system, then you are losing out. Who Cares if there are 100 people who wargame if only 10 of them play the gamesystem you choose to play.
When you are a tourney gamer who travels a lot, it doesn't really impact as bad because I go to where the players are so the idea of "the opponent pool will dry up and I will be left without anyone to play" is not a worry I have. But for many it is.
This is why I believe people in FLGS are so fanatical about their own game and are so quick to hate on any system they don't want people to play thinking that they can turn that PP person into a Malifex person or a 40k person. They take it way personal because anyone who is promoting a system they don't like is potentially taking players away from their gaming system and killing their game. Then the nastyness and angryface pop up.
A good club or store should promote all and say 'hey, we will do a full hardcore fantasy weekend but this weekend everyone is going to do Warmachine!' and sometimes provide a pool of figures so the poutyface can join in and have fun instead of sitting in the corner angry people are not playing his game.
Of course, it's an us vs them mentality that usually causes it. Though there are usually a lot of reasons that contribute to it. The blind rage could just be blind rage, simply existing because the rest of the group also displays it.
nkelsch wrote:I think you guys should take a look at it from another angle, many players see a FLGS and their group of potential opponents as a ZERO SUM number. So when they see someone who is potentially going to grow the group, if they don't choose *YOUR* system, then you are losing out. Who Cares if there are 100 people who wargame if only 10 of them play the gamesystem you choose to play.
When you are a tourney gamer who travels a lot, it doesn't really impact as bad because I go to where the players are so the idea of "the opponent pool will dry up and I will be left without anyone to play" is not a worry I have. But for many it is.
This is why I believe people in FLGS are so fanatical about their own game and are so quick to hate on any system they don't want people to play thinking that they can turn that PP person into a Malifex person or a 40k person. They take it way personal because anyone who is promoting a system they don't like is potentially taking players away from their gaming system and killing their game. Then the nastyness and angryface pop up.
A good club or store should promote all and say 'hey, we will do a full hardcore fantasy weekend but this weekend everyone is going to do Warmachine!' and sometimes provide a pool of figures so the poutyface can join in and have fun instead of sitting in the corner angry people are not playing his game.
What is this? An actually thought out and reasonable post? You should know better by now mister, we don't need your kind around here!
Don't you know that Warmahordes players are all WAAC gamers? That Malifaux players are all M:tG rejects and that all Infinity players are all angry elitists? Only 40K players are fluffy bunnies open to all comers that welcome everyone with a smile and resolve every rare rules dispute with a graceful and gentlemanly roll of the dice!
I'm ex-RN, wrapped my tits in after SDSR. From PWO to Zero, so I could have had Command in a few years but sod it, not worth the stess as a Two & a Half.
I had notice HBMC is the main instigator I have pointed it out subtly on the "Finecast Shenanigans". He got very defensive and then asked my I was pointing fingers and drawing him in.
It's 5-6 leading a bunch of Sheep (the more impressionable junior members or the weak minded fops), It's exactly what I said earlier "It's easier to be extreme than to actually be moderate and think things through". I see it on the CNN coverage of the Presidential Primaries lots of scare mongering and hatred/ polarising nonsense between Ron Paul / Santorum etc.
The worlds a mess because everyone screams extremism all the time. "Gays are bad", "Darwin is evil", "Down with Islam", "kill the infidel", "Say no Healthcare", "No more hispanics", "Kill the jews", "Attack Iran", "Stop the NWO", "Conspiracy this... Conspiracy that", "Area 51". "Oil industry this" "Global warming that". I feel like that song by Billy Joel `we didn't start the fire`.
I hear all this sh*t and I despair because humanity has dragged it's self out from the mire, achieving enlightenment in science, technology and it all seems to be thrown away by an intellectually stunted and aggressive attitude to anyone or anything that has a different attitude or opinion.
Matt You with FSRT (Faslamabad), the ASRM, or the Commando's?
mwnciboo wrote:I'm ex-RN, wrapped my tits in after SDSR. From PWO to Zero, so I could have had Command in a few years but sod it, not worth the stess as a Two & a Half.
I see it on the CNN coverage of the Presidential Primaries lots of scare mongering and hatred/ polarising nonsense between Ron Paul / Santorum etc.
The worlds a mess because everyone screams extremism all the time. "Gays are bad", "Darwin is evil", "Down with Islam", "kill the infidel", "Say no Healthcare", "No more hispanics", "Kill the jews", "Attack Iran", "Stop the NWO", "Conspiracy this... Conspiracy that", "Area 51". "Oil industry this" "Global warming that". I feel like that song by Billy Joel `we didn't start the fire`.
I hear all this sh*t and I despair because humanity has dragged it's self out from the mire, achieving enlightenment in science, technology and it all seems to be thrown away by an intellectually stunted and aggressive attitude to anyone or anything that has a different attitude or opinion.
You with FSRT (Harry van Fas-bats) or the ASRM?
Woah.. that was like.. deep dude.
I don't get depressed about it, I like to copy The Comedian. Life is tough, you just gotta be tougher right!?
mwnciboo wrote:You with FSRT (Harry van Fas-bats) or the ASRM?
I was lucky enough to avoid Fazzers, I did two back to back drafts at in Guz with 42 commando RM at Bickers, a stint at CLRRM in Barnstable, and then a steady 4 year with 40 commando RM in Taunton.
Anyway, good to know you, lets not derail this thread any further.
No. There was no assumption made or harmed in making the film.
NEW in the past few months of last year WAS bad. Lost a foothold on the gaming community at large, and there is a strong negative vibe spouting from the company that brought you Space Marines, Orksks, and grots.
That wasn't the players issues, that was "the company".
As to your rant in question, it wasn't anything you did, you just stepped into a situation of Love/Hate and didn't wear your proper gimp suit.
More often then not, your buddies with the snappy quips were probibly fanboys of the highest sort a few months to a year ago with the finepricegouge5theditionswizleshizle ( or whatever YOU want to call it.) and then you reopened old wounds by playing the game, and actually trying to have some fun with it.
Problem with your little hypothesis is that you forgot the fact that people were within six months to a year ago swamping stores to play, and then after the crazyness, ... they were not. You might think that it is unjustified, or either your ignorant to the fact that there was Space Marines in second, third, and Rogue trader, and even though you ignore that fact, that 5th Edition was OK, but the GW developers that were making the money were sidelined for beancounters that are interested in profitus maximus( ), and that your area still bears the pain of neglect from thier favorite game.
OR-
YOU are entirly justified, and that the guy was an irrelevent D bag that was just Peeing in your shoes to get a rise out of you.
Either way, If you and your buds are having a good time playing whatever game you are playing- then Heck with that crybaby. Play on, Player.
Just realize that there are a LOT of fuming players out here that do not share your enthusiasm, after being heavily involved in a game for numerous years, only to have armies arbitrarily squatted, game systems changed for the sake of change, and models, and whole product lines taken to piss on a regular basis ( even AFTER spending upwards of hundreds of man hours, dollars/ pounds/ franks/ Euros/ sheckles/ etc... and having it rubbed in your face without proper engagement from a holier then thou attitude from some Turkey who was the very one who "Made codexes more relevent with pictures of pictures of weapons, explanations of terms, and fluff added in to - help the new player"
and even though I am a bitter old grot with a shotgun, I still pick up a paintbrush or few to paint up some GW stuff now and then for the shizles and giggles of it. and still have my stuff in hopes that 6th Edition pulls off the oatmeal headphones.
and yeah, I am still a bit sore at GW for the douchery that they are capable of.
mattyrm wrote: I don't get depressed about it, I like to copy The Comedian. Life is tough, you just gotta be tougher right!?
No life is once, you better get busy enjoying it because at an given moment it may end, lost too many friends in accidents over the years, and helo crashes. This is why hating is pointless. One of the greatest quotes by one of the Greatest American Writers, Mark Twain sums it up nicely. "Anger is an acid that can do more harm to the vessel in which it is stored than to anything on which it is poured." I'm going love my Wife and my kids, tend to my Garden, look after my Bees, and screw everything else.
OT though the pool of players issue is a bit weird, we have about 60 people at my club and we play loads of different stuff and vary it through the year current just finished our 2 month 30k campaign. Necromunda was running parallel and people still played 40k (but with 20 of us playing as the Legions there were alot less opponents). I'm having 2 months off 40k to play FOW and prepare for upcoming Tournaments. Blood Bowl is a league that goes on all year, really we are big bunch of gamers who love to game. 40k is always the centre of everyone's collections but PP Malifaux etc is in the ascendancy mainly due to cost compared with GW, although FOW is steamrollering everything where I live. There are so many players that younger ones will be brought on the old guard and selling armies etc.
mattyrm wrote:
I don't get depressed about it, I like to copy The Comedian. Life is tough, you just gotta be tougher right!?
No life is once, you better get busy enjoying it because at an given moment it may end, lost too many friends in accidents over the years, and helo crashes. This is why hating is pointless. One of the greatest quotes by one of the Greatest American Writers, Mark Twain sums it up nicely. "Anger is an acid that can do more harm to the vessel in which it is stored than to anything on which it is poured." I'm going love my Wife and my kids, tend to my Garden, look after my Bees, and screw everything else.
That IS a good quote. I like you have Bee's too.. what a fine hobby.
Arent I kinda subscribed to it though?
I mean, ok many arguments aside, my point is simply that there is no need to take GWs behaviour so personally. You can play the game on a shoestring and crack on with your life, there is no need for the hate part. Big companies want to turn a profit, why do you need to take it personally?
Case in point, many people own both, but there is a large group of people on either side of the Apple fence. Some people either love Apple or they are a windows user. I'm a PC man, I dislike Apple, I decided I did after a chance meeting with a stereotypical "hipster" when I went to buy a new power supply from Maplins. It was about 5 years ago and I literally stopped using apple as a result of it. He basically said "what's this for anyway a PC?" "Yes" I replied, I'm making one myself.. I think Ive got the know how nowadays" he grinned and said "feth that, buy an apple" I said "Er.. Well, I like making my own stuff anyway, its a good learning experience" and he said basically "Only clueless fethers use a PC, Apple stuff literally never ever break or crash.. seriously.. try one, I bet you don't buy another PC ever..." and then I took a look at his dirty greasy unwashed visage, his gak ear-rings and crap girly hair style and thought "feth it ill never use an Apple"
Somewhat immature on my part as well of course, but hey ho. First impressions and all that..
Anyway, its a good analogy. Some people absolutely love apple and hate Microsoft. You get people who swear by apple and use only them, and vice versa. I decided to side with the anti-apple crowd. I use a Samsung Galaxy S2, and a Creative Labs MP3 player, I have Windows 7 on my custom built PC. I dont and wont buy an Iphone, Ipod, or Mac.
But that is the absolute end of my involvement. I don't CARE what people have other than me. Several of my best mates have I-phones, I don't wax lyrical about it, I don't bore the tits off people at parties by telling them about my gak, utterly uninteresting stance, I just you know.. buy Android phones.
To me, these fethers endlessly haranguing people like me and Kan (and im not even a GW fan boy!) are outright trolling people, and yet they love to throw that accusation at everyone else.
If you go to a Mobile phone forum or an Apple Forum, do you get irate clusters of bigots who insult people that DO enjoy Apple products? (Im ignorant of these things, but Im sure they exist) how is it any different? I dont like many things, If I dislike Micheal Jackson I wouldnt go to www.weloveMJ.com and start going "OMG he had a rubber face!" on the forums, how is it any different?
All I dont understand, is that if you have decided that you hate GW, and wont buy their stuff, why cant you just stop buying their stuff, and stay in the areas of the forum that you find relevant? I have literally never been in the "Other games" section of Dakka, so why must these pests embark on a crusade of intolerence and attempt to mock and "lol" at people who do like GW games?
I don't know the thread and i wont name names, but I saw one a few months back where a well known hater started a thread, someone turned up and posted in it, and then said hater and a few mates where like "Hey I told you he would show up" "Yes, you owe me 5 dollars" "nudge wink" "lol!"
It's full on trolling.
If you don't want to play, buy, or have anything at all to do with GW, then don't. Why virtually bully people that do? gak, I can even see where people are coming from, I still haven't touched finecast.
But the gak I see on here by (apparently) grown men is entirely needless.
TL;DR: Haters are gonna hate. EDIT: I had a bad encounter with a guy who didn't like the game (40k) I was playing, and decided to be a jerk about it.
I offer a demo service to my FLGS for 40k. It's a self-made volunteer thing, with hopes of increasing interest in 40k at the store; this'll hopefully attract new people to the store/game, which will increase sales, which will increase the support for 40k at the store, as well as build up a community of players.. That said, there's other games at the store, Warmachine/Hordes and Malifaux being far more popular. This is evident, as the PP and Wyrd sections are fully stocked, whereas the GW section is tucked into a sort of corner.
Unlike most gamers I've encountered, I love 40k, but I also understand why people play Warmahordes and Malifaux (abreviated to W/H/M). I have explained to every "demo-ee" that 40k is on the expensive side, and that it's understandable if they can't collect. I let them know that the other games are more affordable, and it might also interest them; either way, they can always borrow one of my armies to play 40k. I also always tell them that it's perfectly okay to collect more than one game system. This is how I roll. As well as all this, I emphasize to my players, that if they are going to play 40k at the store, being competitive is a quick way to get ostracized. The store is for casual gaming only, whether its Malifaux, PP, M:TG, Board Games or Lan games. The exceptions are tournaments, of course.
Yesterday, I was eating lunch, and the store called me in; someone had found out about my demo service from a google search (exciting!). I went over and met the guy (we'll call him Mercutio), and had a small chat. We declared a 1000 point game, nids vs Vanilla Marines, and I took a few minutes to build my list.
And that's when the hating started...
Unsurprisingly, there were a few W/H/M players who raised brows in our setup; they hadn't ever seen a 40k game, or it had been very long; this always happens, because 40k isn't often played at the store (which is what I'm trying to change). Of course, what also happens every time are the comments; former 40k players will denounce GW, and those who have never played will openly complain about the prices; this happens without provocation. Every time.
Still, some W/H/M are people who like the game system (what a shock, I know /sarcasm) and wanted to play 40k, but couldn't for any reason (price, lack of opponents, etc). One particular guy we'll call him Maximus) was happy to announce he had quit collecting 40k, but later showed interest in our game, the models, the fluff, the tactics, etc. This is also normal, the whole "denounce because its cool, but can't help showing positive interest."
Now, so far, there's always been this negativity from non-GW players at the store; however, hate as they might, they never attempt to convince players to quit 40k and play something else; their steam comes from explaining why THEY quit. That is, until yesterday.
While setting up, a regular Malifaux player (we'll call him Leonidas) walked into the gaming section, and found all three large tables had been taken up, and the two small tables had gear on it (one had W/H stuff, the other had Mercutio's and my stuff). Lately, the section has been empty every Thursday (minis night); Most W/H/M players were back in school/taking a break, and everything else was simply not played often. This upset Leonidas, and he noted aloud rather loudly "great, one warmachine, one 40k," in the sort of tone that says "who the are these guys?" I ignored it. Later, as we were playing, Maximus commented on how he'd like to collect Malifaux. Leonidas' response was to sell any 40k crap he had; a sure way for Maximus to afford Malifaux. At that point, I realized, Leonidas had something against 40k. Again, I ignored him.
The worst came at the end. Mercutio and I had had a great game, which ended in a draw and some awesome moments with a Carnifex and his ASoB Termies. Mercutio had some questions about my idea of building a community; he wanted to help, because he wanted sizeable community to play with. Then, out of the blue, Leonidas flat out interrupts us. He tells Mercutio "hey, if you want a good community, forget about 40k and join Malifaux." Mercutio and I paused, stared at him... and ignored him. I could tell he wasn't happy, and it was obvious neither was I.
Thankfully, Mercutio left on great terms; he wanted to help, so I told him to merely advertise. He was concerned about the fact that he had to leave for 6 months, but I told him it'd be fine, and that the community would be here beyond that time, i.e. I was making it to last. We shook hands, and he left satisfed, but wanting more. Despite that, I couldn't shake what had just happened. I was upset, and even fed up; Since I've joined the store's community, the amount of negativity for 40k has been a bombardment. No one could simply accept that it was what I played, they all have to insert their stabbing comments.
Which brings me to Dakka, because it's the same thing here. I often times see people entering 40k discussions, purely to insert how much they hate the game, hate the prices, and hate GW. I find most of these people are old veterans of the game, who remember playing 2nd ed. Naturally, when a game system changes radically, people are going to get upset. The mistake is assuming the new is bad. The new is different, but to a new player, it's still new.
Which brings me to my other point: I've grown used to ignoring this, but what about new players? They don't know your old system. They don't know about what it used to cost. They see the game, and like it for what it is now, and enjoy it. Why are you trying to get them to see it your way, what good does it serve? "They are wrong, and I must tell them they are wrong?" That's low. "I must inform them of all the horrible things they are about to embark." Why? Let them be, if it's what they like.
So ultimately, my point is haters are gonna hate, but nothing's worse than a hater trying to convince a lover to be a hater. Hate on your own.
This was very well said. I try to convince new people to get into WH, I teach them the basics, and I try to identify what army(ies) they may be interested in. From this point I 'always' let them know that certain armies are more expensive to build and let them know the alternatives for mini war gaming. For example I met a guy at my last job, he lives like 45 minutes away and where he goes to college he has some friends who play Warmachine. I said, "Honestly Josh, I love Warhammer but you have friends there who are established, can help you, can play with you, and the investment for a small force for Warmachine is considerably affordable. If you are dead-set of playing Warhammer with us I am happy to game with you but it is a 45minute drive here, getting an army will be a small investment, and you don't know anyone there right now that plays WH."
I try not to be biased solely to Warhammer, hell I'd like to try Warmachine but I don't have enough funds to start a small force right now, that being said I feel I need to be honest with people and lay it out for them their respective options as I see them. Long story short however, Josh has made the 45 minute drive 2 weekends in a row and is learning the game before he purchases an army (showed interest in Chaos Space Marines and Grey Knights), so he most definitely has made his choice for the time being (unless he starts both games, which is also perfectly fine).
Final note, your FLGS owner or manager really needs to talk to that guy that was badgering you two. I think there is a rivalry in every game, been there done that, but at the end of the day BOTH W/H/M as well as GW products generate revenue for him to stay in business. So one might argue that W/H/M sales make it possible for you to attempt to build a WH community and on that same note an increase in GW sales would add further profits to the owner thus helping to keep a roof for W/H/M (and you) to play games under. It is counter-productive for that guy to complain and convince a new player 'not' to purchase what he 'wants' to purchase and from my perspective someone like that would make me less likely to want to join 'his' community because he made a poor first impression and could be a reflection of the overall attitude of the group.
timetowaste85 wrote: Anything above 7-8, sitting on the field DURING the game is unacceptable. He deserved to be cleated. Rant over.
We were all around 12 years of age.
You wanna know the worst insult? The award for most improvement went to the fatty that sat during most games, probably because he stood instead. I F-king wish I was joking.
The coach would tell me to stop trying to be a one man team, kinda hard when you're the only one doing anything past the 1st quarter.
I don't understand the Magic hate. How can people seriously say "Magic players are X" or that they "All do Y"? Try looking at the mixed bag of people who play Warhammer before tarring everyone of a different system with the same brush.
I play, and have played, a number of games so don't really care who does what in a shop. The "my gang vs their gang" attitude is rather childish and stupid. It's no better than people who squabble over whether Nintendo or Sega are best, or who makes the best trainers.
I play Magic. I've met a few douchbags but most are at least friendly and pleasant and some are very nice people. Oddly enough, that's what I've seen of Warhammer too. And model making in general actually. I see a fair bit of Magic-hate though, there are quite a few threads on Dakka complaining that Magic players share some unpleasant characteristics and dare to do things like take up too many tables on games night and the like. Well first come first serve.
Actually I find that when playing Magic, there are more adults about so that makes me more comfortable than most Warhammer playing venues. Also with things like D&D there are a better mix of people of all ages. There are several girls at one of my local places doing Magic nights now, and I've met quite a few girls doing D&D in general, this is good because my wife seems happier when she isn't the only girl in the room.
It's been said a few times in the thread, so I'd like to let everyone know that I did indeed talk to the store owner. He, like me, was not happy to hear this.
I offered that he not talk to Leonidas just yet (benefit of the doubt, maybe he had a bad day?), but I let the owner understand that 40k does get quite a bit of flak from other store goers. He told me he'd discourage any such talk from then on.
Mind you, the number of 40k players now outnumbers any other miniature's group, due to my meetups. Still, I make it a point to remind my new players not to be negative towards other games, but instead be open minded and interested.
And if its not their cup of tea, to understand that those who do play it, do in fact enjoy it.
heartserenade wrote:I think that it's not the game that fosters douchebags. It's just... there's douchebags in every group, and most people associate the game/group with said douchebags. Same goes for religion, political parties, families, etc.
That man speaks the truth.
It's a lot easier to see things in black and white, but in the end, remember stupidity is the one thing humanity shares best.
mwnciboo wrote:The internet is a funny beast, it seems to breed extremism or to be polarising, it's like the perceived lack of responsibility for what people are saying allows you to say more and more perverse and extreme parodies of your personal thoughts and beliefs.
Very true. This has been observed and named "online disinhibition effect" by some, or "GIFT" by others (for Greater Internet F-wad Theory).
Please don't post images containing swear words. Thanks ~ Manchu
Not that I think we should blame the Internet, to me it's first and foremost a fantastic window on the world.
Okay, online disinhibition effect, I learned something today. Hyd your posts are always worth reading, it's not the 1st time I've said that to you, i'm sure.
I absolutely agree on the Window on the World comment, I have a wealth of material at my fingertips. I have learned more on the internet since leaving University than at any other time in my life. It's a massive enabler, unfortunately it doesn't discriminate who it enables.
Howard A Treesong wrote:I don't understand the Magic hate. How can people seriously say "Magic players are X" or that they "All do Y"? Try looking at the mixed bag of people who play Warhammer before tarring everyone of a different system with the same brush.
I play, and have played, a number of games so don't really care who does what in a shop. The "my gang vs their gang" attitude is rather childish and stupid. It's no better than people who squabble over whether Nintendo or Sega are best, or who makes the best trainers.
I play Magic. I've met a few douchbags but most are at least friendly and pleasant and some are very nice people. Oddly enough, that's what I've seen of Warhammer too. And model making in general actually. I see a fair bit of Magic-hate though, there are quite a few threads on Dakka complaining that Magic players share some unpleasant characteristics and dare to do things like take up too many tables on games night and the like. Well first come first serve.
Actually I find that when playing Magic, there are more adults about so that makes me more comfortable than most Warhammer playing venues. Also with things like D&D there are a better mix of people of all ages. There are several girls at one of my local places doing Magic nights now, and I've met quite a few girls doing D&D in general, this is good because my wife seems happier when she isn't the only girl in the room.
I've seen more Power Gamers at my FLGS which play Magic than at my FLGS, GW and any Good Game Store Combined. I only play against Adults at my stores. The real problem with Magic Gamers is that they give you lists to "Help" you improve but you have to spend $200+ to make a good deck out of it. A lot of the guys are nice but the douches from magic are big douches compared to the Warhammer version which are small ones.
Why thank you mwnciboo, I do try ! Geez, it's not everyday I go on the web.
Pacific wrote:I really can't understand the whole 'either/or' mentality towards gaming systems. It almost reminds me in a way of the old 16-bit wars, with people either choosing a SNES or Megadrive, and then being massively disparaging about anything on the other system (even though they secretly wanted to have a go!)
Another good remark, which still holds nowadays (Sony VS Nintendo VS Microsoft).
I recall reading something about that as well, a tendency we have to pick one side and to be adamantly and rather irrationally partisan about the matter. Applies to about anything from "real-life" considerations to toy soldiers games, as demonstrated by the OP !
rockerbikie wrote:
I've seen more Power Gamers at my FLGS which play Magic than at my FLGS, GW and any Good Game Store Combined. I only play against Adults at my stores. The real problem with Magic Gamers is that they give you lists to "Help" you improve but you have to spend $200+ to make a good deck out of it. A lot of the guys are nice but the douches from magic are big douches compared to the Warhammer version which are small ones.
Just to chime in - the same exact thing can happen in wargames.
'Here, let me see your list. Oh, no wonder why you keep losing. You don't have enough tanks/'jacks/infantry/transports/whatever. If you want to win, go out and buy this list of models. Sure, it'll cost you $200+, but at least you'll be a winner!'
And I'm sure there are plenty of stores where the douchbaggery of wargamers far outweighs that of the CCG crowd. Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.
Hi all.
There has always been a wide variety of games to suit the wide variety of gamers out there.
All the styles scales periods of history and fictional settings , cater to a wide variety of games.
GW plc used to support a much wider stable of games before they settled on Tolkens fantasy,GWs fantasy, and GW fantasy in space as the only games they wanted to focus on.
Most mature gamers seem to be happy to live and let live, and undestand the difference and variety of games and gamers in the world today.
I can only assume those with a 'strong negative emotional resonce to 40k/WHFB' have had a MASSIVE negative experiance with those games...
Perhaps they wanderd into a shop, where there were display stands full of exellently painted minatuers, and they were shown how to play a game and they WON thier first game.And only being 11-15 felt great and exited about the cool sounding stuff the nice man sold them.....
Years later having realised they had been misled , and recived comparitivley apauling value for money.('Kin GW ripped me off I tell you!)
They may have an understandable , if antisocial , atitude towards 40k /WHFB.
IF GW plc were still a games company, rather than focusing on selling toy soldiers to children.Perhaps the negativity towards GW plc might not be as bad?
If the OP had already explaind how expencive 40k is , and how poorly the armies are supported(excluding SM.), and the poor definition and over complication in the rule set.And the guy STILL was interested then fair enough.
Different strokes for different folks.
All I say is you can use the cool 40k minatures with other rule sets if you want to give them a try...
If they are happy with the current 40k rules fair enough.
I only object to GW plc pretending there is ONLY the GW hobby (tm).
Lanrak wrote:If the OP had already explaind how expencive 40k is , and how poorly the armies are supported(excluding SM.), and the poor definition and over complication in the rule set.And the guy STILL was interested then fair enough
beigeknight wrote:The names were a mix of Romeo and Juliet, Gladiator, and 300. That would make a sweet movie....
Juliet: Romeo, Romeo. Where art thou Romeo?
Leonidas: *Kicks Juliet off balocny* THIS IS SPARTAAAAA!
Maximus: ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?!
I hope you don't mind if this gets sigged? I nearly spat tea all over my keyboard in work... That would have been difficult to explain away
Also infinite_array - I'm definitely going to use the Hetzers gonna Hetz picture in future
As to the actual topic; I'm one of the people that would dabble with any game system that interested me, even though 40K is my "standard" as the one I will always come back to. I find it quite strange that people stick so rigidly to one system, fair enough if you don't enjoy any of the others, but no reason to hate on it...
Lanrak wrote:If the OP had already explaind how expencive 40k is , and how poorly the armies are supported(excluding SM.), and the poor definition and over complication in the rule set.And the guy STILL was interested then fair enough
What a total load of biased bullsquirt.
Really? I don't know of many people with the Australian flag showing by their posts who haven't complained about the prices down under, which establishes Lanrak's first point.
The support for certain ranges (and entire games) is patchy. As Brettonia or Wood Elf players in WHFB, for example, or SoB or Eldar players in 40k - let alone those of us whole like Blood Bowl or Epic. If you're army/game isn't getting new releases, then there are problems. I would say there are some flagship armies (SMs, Empire, O&G) that receive solid and consistent support when new editions roll around, but there is certainly nowhere near balanced support between factions.
Having not played 5th Ed 40k or 8th Ed WHFB, and only flicked through army books/codexes, I'm not really in a position to comment on his final point. However, as everyone knows, two out of three ain't bad...
There will be asshats in any game. Saying that game X is full of Dbags is just ignorant IMHO
Sometimes the conflict comes from some folks inability to adapt or accept an aspect of a game that the players treat as the norm.
Magic full of Dbags? or maybe you just dislike the ultra-competitive mindset. (I know I did, and i really didnt like the "hunt" aspect or cost )
Arrogant Fighting Game enthusiasts? or maybe you just hate getting cherry-tapped by that korean kid.
Im not saying an aspect of a game should be an excuse for any asshattery though. God knows how I hate hearing stories of PP players taking page 5 in the wrong direction(our small community thankfully doesnt have that...yet)
but sometimes its easy blaming "them" than our inabilty to deal with the game
I'd have to say that your position is unfortunate, OP, but agree that you should speak to the store owner. If he is going to the trouble of letting you try to increase 40k sales, he should be also helping to restrain idiocy that would drive away customers. I honestly hate gaming stores sometimes, just for the mouth-breathers that you get in them, not to mention staff more interested in talking to their friends than helping customers.
I can also agree with the number of GW-haters that you meet, and how useless their diatribes are. It is like people eager to talk about religion - they are dying to tell you what they think, but don't want to hear what you think.
That picture was from the Gay Love Parade 1986......men in uniform, I think.......just off lens was a Policeman, a Lollipop "man", and a cowboy is crotchless leathers.....ahh, those were the days
And for those saying M:tG is an expensive hobby... I Top 8ed three tournaments with decks that cost less that $22*. I don't know if it's still possible to make a budget deck that is competitive now, but one thing that M:tG does quite well is reward diligent players who seeks combinations that work. So the trash card of today can be the sought-out card tomorrow.
I also don't get the Magic hate. As I have said earlier, there are douchebags in every group. When I was still in competitive M:tG some of my playtest buddies loathe 40k players for the same reasons. So really, hating a group because they're different is racism in a different form. Yes, racism. You're judging and hating people based on something trivial (skin, nationality, religion,sexual orientation, political leanings, and on this case, hobby preferences). Sure it's not fullblown as some but the source is the same--hatred towards something not you.
The worst came at the end. Mercutio and I had had a great game, which ended in a draw and some awesome moments with a Carnifex and his ASoB Termies. Mercutio had some questions about my idea of building a community; he wanted to help, because he wanted sizeable community to play with. Then, out of the blue, Leonidas flat out interrupts us. He tells Mercutio "hey, if you want a good community, forget about 40k and join Malifaux." Mercutio and I paused, stared at him... and ignored him. I could tell he wasn't happy, and it was obvious neither was I.
Sounds like a pretty agressive d-bag. There's always one hanging around, not getting dates, or jobs.
That picture was from the Gay Love Parade 1986......men in uniform, I think.......just off lens was a Policeman, a Lollipop "man", and a cowboy is crotchless leathers.....ahh, those were the days
I was thinking that too, looks rather homoerotic, "look at my big gun"
That picture was from the Gay Love Parade 1986......men in uniform, I think.......just off lens was a Policeman, a Lollipop "man", and a cowboy is crotchless leathers.....ahh, those were the days
I was thinking that too, looks rather homoerotic, "look at my big gun"
I see a young man serving his country. This thread appears to be aptly named.
All military Pics are bit homo-erotic. It's boys with toys.
The above is a good example of banter that doesn't descend to hating. I am willing to put forward that if you hosted that pic or something similar on Youtube you would end up with 40 or 50 comments below and some would be "UK f.a.g/gay marines, US Marines FTW" etc etc or some kind of Political thing, or some idiot "Patriot" hijacking it and using it to bash some other religion or political group.
Haters love hating, but as I've said it reduces their life span.
That picture was from the Gay Love Parade 1986......men in uniform, I think.......just off lens was a Policeman, a Lollipop "man", and a cowboy is crotchless leathers.....ahh, those were the days
I was thinking that too, looks rather homoerotic, "look at my big gun"
I see a young man serving his country. This thread appears to be aptly named.
Oh come on, I was joking....who knew?
We have this (main topic) every so often, people wondering about why others don't like what they like....I say just ignore them. Sure it's great when you can surround yourself with supportive, friendly people, but life throws you a curve ball.....as long as the people arn't getting physical about it, tell em to "be on your way!" and be done with it.
notprop wrote:So when did this change from haterz gunna hate to sailors on parade?
He's no Sailor, he's a Marine. Although he is employed by the Navy, say's so on his ID card. If you ask a Marine what they want on their ID Card they will probably say "HOOFIN".
HI folks.
My comments about 40k/WHFB earlier , may have been seen as biased.(I belive them to be an objective assesment .)
I personaly think the background and minatures for 40k and WHFB, are very inspiring.And I can totaly understand gamers/collectors being hooked purely by these asthetics.
However, these elements are totaly subjective , as ALL asthetics are.(One mans perfection in form is another mans hideous abomination.)
So I stuck to the elements of 40k/WHFB that CAN be compared objectivley.(Actual comparison of physicaly measurable elements.)And in my 27 years experiance of gaming I can compare rule sets quite objectivley...
1) The comparative cost of playing a 'full game' of 40k/WHFB , to playing a 'full game' of other minature games .40k and WHFB are generaly more expencive.(By a fairly large margin in some cases.)
The 40k is relativley expencive compared to other games systems , is defencable/provable.
2) When a company leave game play issues unadressed, to the point gamers start wearing 'GW dont give a FAQs' tee shirts.And then GW plc simply copy the FAQs from a great gamers forum (Shhh you know who. ) ......And when some armies have to wait years' a DECADE! in some cases for a rules up date.
The 40k has poor game support compared to other game sytems , is defencable/provable.
3) The poor definition in the 40k/WHFB rules, is simply down to ambiguity caused by NOT using constant phrasiology.And writing rules in exclusivley , rather than inclusivley way to highten the strategic focus that supports sales.The amount of players asking for clarification of what rules actualy mean sort of back this up.(RAW vs RAI)
Compared to other rule sets available , 40k and WHFB are poorly defined.
Over complication, When a game uses less suitable game mechanics resolution methods, it often needs far more additional rules and resolution methods than necisary.
EG many games use ONE resolution method to resolve ALL damage interaction.
40k uses armour saving throws, invunerable saving throws, STR vs AR , Feel No Pain,Eternal Warrior, Instant death , etc .
Most games the core rules cover 80 to 90 % of all game play.And special rules are used sparingly to achive faction/racial differences.And highlight units /models that are unique on the battle field.
40ks core rules ONLY cover standard infantry.That 1 out of the 14 unit types found in the game of 40k. 40k is the most over complicated counter intuitive rule set I am aware of.Compared to the 30 odd other games I have played over the last 27 years.
The statement the 40k ruleset is poorly derfined , counter intuitive and over complicated is defecible and provable by direct comparison to other rule systems.(Even the game developers say the 40k rules are not that important... )
But this is not the place for this lengthy process.
Many people find the asthetic of 40k/WHFB make up for the shortfall in other areas,and enjoy playing the games .
This is perfectly fine.
I have played games with exellent rules and poorly sculped minatures.
This is perfectly fine .
We have pointed out the dodgy asthetics ,shakey background,dodgy rules writing , poor wording in many games systems to many gamers at our local club.We just want gamers to be well informed so they can pick the games they will enjoy.
All game systems have good points and bad points .It is important to make gamers aware of what they are.
This is what I was trying to convey.
The over the top negative responce the OP experinced was not warrented , or justifiable.
Lanrak wrote:HI folks.
My comments about 40k/WHFB earlier , may have been seen as biased.(I belive them to be an objective assesment .)
I personaly think the background and minatures for 40k and WHFB, are very inspiring.And I can totaly understand gamers/collectors being hooked purely by these asthetics.
However, these elements are totaly subjective , as ALL asthetics are.(One mans perfection in form is another mans hideous abomination.)
So I stuck to the elements of 40k/WHFB that CAN be compared objectivley.(Actual comparison of physicaly measurable elements.)And in my 27 years experiance of gaming I can compare rule sets quite objectivley...
1) The comparative cost of playing a 'full game' of 40k/WHFB , to playing a 'full game' of other minature games .40k and WHFB are generaly more expencive.(By a fairly large margin in some cases.)
The 40k is relativley expencive compared to other games systems , is defencable/provable.
2) When a company leave game play issues unadressed, to the point gamers start wearing 'GW dont give a FAQs' tee shirts.And then GW plc simply copy the FAQs from a great gamers forum (Shhh you know who. ) ......And when some armies have to wait years' a DECADE! in some cases for a rules up date.
The 40k has poor game support compared to other game sytems , is defencable/provable.
3) The poor definition in the 40k/WHFB rules, is simply down to ambiguity caused by NOT using constant phrasiology.And writing rules in exclusivley , rather than inclusivley way to highten the strategic focus that supports sales.The amount of players asking for clarification of what rules actualy mean sort of back this up.(RAW vs RAI)
Compared to other rule sets available , 40k and WHFB are poorly defined.
Over complication, When a game uses less suitable game mechanics resolution methods, it often needs far more additional rules and resolution methods than necisary.
EG many games use ONE resolution method to resolve ALL damage interaction.
40k uses armour saving throws, invunerable saving throws, STR vs AR , Feel No Pain,Eternal Warrior, Instant death , etc .
Most games the core rules cover 80 to 90 % of all game play.And special rules are used sparingly to achive faction/racial differences.And highlight units /models that are unique on the battle field.
40ks core rules ONLY cover standard infantry.That 1 out of the 14 unit types found in the game of 40k. 40k is the most over complicated counter intuitive rule set I am aware of.Compared to the 30 odd other games I have played over the last 27 years.
The statement the 40k ruleset is poorly derfined , counter intuitive and over complicated is defecible and provable by direct comparison to other rule systems.(Even the game developers say the 40k rules are not that important... )
But this is not the place for this lengthy process.
Many people find the asthetic of 40k/WHFB make up for the shortfall in other areas,and enjoy playing the games .
This is perfectly fine.
I have played games with exellent rules and poorly sculped minatures.
This is perfectly fine .
We have pointed out the dodgy asthetics ,shakey background,dodgy rules writing , poor wording in many games systems to many gamers at our local club.We just want gamers to be well informed so they can pick the games they will enjoy.
All game systems have good points and bad points .It is important to make gamers aware of what they are.
This is what I was trying to convey.
The over the top negative responce the OP experinced was not warrented , or justifiable.
I agree with a few points but 2, and 3, are not so easily defined.
There are rulesets out there that are far more ambiguous than 40k and there are also games with far worse support. GW are not the best of games on these points you mention, but they are far from the worst.
HI.
@ Darkness Eternal.
My point was the core rules should cover the majority of the units and gameplay , with special rules used SPARINGLY to show unique traits and abilities.
This is why 40k is over complicated, the core rules cover so little, the game relies on so many extra seperate rules it becomes bloated.
40k has 100s of pages of rules to cover its straight forward game play.(40k inspiring asthetic and straight forward game play are its stong points IMO.)
The same level of game play could be achived with less than 40 pages of rules.(If we used more apropriate game mechanics and resolution methods.)
Therfore 40k rules are unecissarily over complicated.(2 to 4 times more pages of rules than actualy necissary.)
Rayon,
I know of some absolute stinkers too!
And some games dont get alot of development support because .
a) They dont need it, the gamers are happy with what they have.
b) The game is OOP and gamers just adapt wht they have to what they want.
Both of these conditions mainly occur with games written for mature/experianced gamers .(I would argue GW prime demoghraphic for 40k excludes these 2 options.)
Out of the popular games companies that sell TTMG , GW plc concern for actual game play issues is very low in comparison.(The dev team would do a lot more if left to thier own devises, as they used to do.)
However , comparing rule sets that are sold for money, and have similar levels of complexity in game play, or similar levels of complication in the rules.
40k especialy, is comparitivley over complicated counter intuitive and poorly defined .
Perfection doesnt exist.You just pick the game that right for you.
And those that put asthetic content and straight forward gameplay, over well defined tacticaly richer rule sets , are going to pick different games.
There is no right or wrong just what is right for you!
And gamers only find the right game if they are made aware of all the options availble ,and the strenght AND weaknesses of each game system.
I was posting to try to point out ,I hoped the OP DID objectivly critique 40k to the potential new player.In which case the 'asshats' actions were even more out of place.
I dont wish to derail this thread any more, by lenghty discussions of comparitive game development and support.
I belive the highly negative responce 40k often gets, is more due Kirby's atitude towards GW customers than the actual game of 40k/WHFB.
Lanrak wrote:HI.
40k has 100s of pages of rules to cover its straight forward game play.(40k inspiring asthetic and straight forward game play are its stong points IMO.)
The same level of game play could be achived with less than 40 pages of rules.(If we used more apropriate game mechanics and resolution methods.)
Therfore 40k rules are unecissarily over complicated.(2 to 4 times more pages of rules than actualy necissary.)
I have a similar problem at my Club with one loud guy in particular... only the problem isn't GW/Warhammer... it's Matt Ward.
Don't you dare play a Ward codex around this guy, or he'll go 'Tsk, Ward' every time you do *anything* (he'll be hovering over your shoulder scrutinising your game 'cos nobody's playing with him). Oh and keep said Codex away from him physically too, or he'll grab it and flick through it, deriding everytihng inside (and ensuring that he interrupts whatever you're doing to voice his totally original assertions.
Make note Bandwagoners, some people will willingly play both with and against Ward 'dexes. Don't hate.
Lanrak wrote:HI. 40k has 100s of pages of rules to cover its straight forward game play.(40k inspiring asthetic and straight forward game play are its stong points IMO.) The same level of game play could be achived with less than 40 pages of rules.(If we used more apropriate game mechanics and resolution methods.)
Therfore 40k rules are unecissarily over complicated.(2 to 4 times more pages of rules than actualy necissary.)
Prove it.
Well, let's look at another of GW's wargames - Epic Armageddon.
EA can be argued to be a more complex wargame than 40k (and heavens forbid we get into a discussion comparing EA to E40k or even older versions). If we take a look at the EA Compendium v2, we see that the entire ruleset - from what you need to play to tournament gaming - is 43 pages. That includes extra rules like spacecraft, drop landings, siege engines, and aircraft. The next 96 pages are the entirety of the game's army lists, from Space Marines to Squats.
So, EA manages to put into 138 pages what 40k cannot put into hundreds of pages in various rulebooks and codices.
I'd also put Mantic's rulesets up as an example. They mostly manage to do the same thing as 40k and fantasy (mostly) in a ~20 page free document.
Shadelkan wrote:In excellent news, my demos have caused an explosion of interest in the game, and the store goers are abuzz about it.
Bottom line - this is the objective. So you win. You are absolutely right. Some people have an overinflated sense of importance and their opinions. If you are having fun - and you are getting more players, you are doing something right.
Best of luck to you man!
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Shadowbrand wrote:Well, I have the rule book. The little Black Reach one. 112 pages.
Daunting for a new player. But I know this gak like the back of my hand.
cvtuttle wrote:
However, Chess, a game of the ages, with infinitely less flexibility of play comes in a 416 page book
How misleading. You could write the basic rules of chess on one sheet of A4 with all of the information needed for people to play it.
You should take up politics with that fact twisting ability.
Indeed. The rules of chess haven't changed for a very long time so why did that book need to be updated 5 times?
It's obviously got more than the rules in there as even the "advanced" manoeuvres such as Castling are very simple to explain. A quick glance at the synopsis goes to show this. It's talking about things which are not necessary to play, such sponsoring tournaments, calculating rankings and reading/writing chess notation.
The Chess book, from the Amazon description, also has a lot of information that would be the equivalent to a wargame rulebook including tactics discussions, campaign/league information, multiple variants, etc.
Shadelkan wrote:- a big long post that doesn't need to be quoted in its entirety-
I would have told him to shut his mouth and mind his own business. I don't put up with that kind of gak.
Some people just don't have any manners and are rude in general. You need to stick up for yourself, and not tolerate that type of dissrespect.
And that is exactly what it was, at least the way you have described it above. I would no more tolerate that type of behavior in gaming, than I would in any
other aspect of life. Besides, WM\H & Malifaux aren't even in the same league as 40K, despite what their fans would tell you. It is like comparing an Atari 2600
game to a PS3 game. But that is a discussion for another thread.
- Edited by insaniak. The language filter is there for a reason -
cvtuttle wrote:
However, Chess, a game of the ages, with infinitely less flexibility of play comes in a 416 page book
How misleading. You could write the basic rules of chess on one sheet of A4 with all of the information needed for people to play it.
You should take up politics with that fact twisting ability.
Ooo you got me!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Balance wrote:The Chess book, from the Amazon description, also has a lot of information that would be the equivalent to a wargame rulebook including tactics discussions, campaign/league information, multiple variants, etc.
Kairos wrote:
Besides, WM\H & Malifaux aren't even in the same league as 40K, despite what their fans would tell you. It is like comparing an Atari 2600
game to a PS3 game. But that is a discussion for another thread.
Out of curiosity, plain and simple - what 'league' do you speak of?
Hi all.
Can I just take a moment to clarify.
Gamers have a preference for different types of game play , from size of game , scale of game,complexity and detail in the game play and complication of the rule set.
This is why such a wide variety of game exist !
The asthetic and play style of a game can ONLY be discussed subjectively.
You either like it or you dont.
I did NOT critique 40ks asthetic or game play.
Only the instructions to play are not as well defined or as consice and intuitive as other rule sets.This can be proved by objective comparisons.(As Infinate Arrays comparison to EA.)
The cost to field a full army in a full game can also be compared objectivley to other systems.And the level and frequency of updates and amendments to improve game play can also be compared objectivley.
In all these areas 40k is not as good as other games.(Compared to other TTMG sold by other companies, with similar levels of game play complexity and rule complication.)
And I belive its important to point this out to potential new players.
I am assuming Kairos was comparing asthetic and game play subjectivley, as the only real diffeence between an Atari 2600 and a PS3 is much better graphics...
Am I wrong in thinking 40k would be better off with a rule set written specificaly for the game paly of 40k, rather than the game being stuck with a mutilated version of WHFB?
Anyhow , I am NOT slagging off 40k the game , or the people that play it.
Just wanting to attract attension to the negativce influence GW plc corperate interferance has had on 40k game development and support.
The situation in the OP poses some similar problem to the one currently plaguing my LGS.
When I found the place I was directed there, ironically, by another store who didnt have the space to host 40k. When I found the place (DEC of 2010) I was super-noobish and was just looking for some people to play. I was on my first army and just needed some experience. I met some cool people right off the bat and made some new friends while learning. The owners told me at the time that 40k was dead there and no one really played. She said they were looking for more people to play and hopefully get the community (and no doubt GW sales) rolling again.
Alot after a couple other locals showed up (I'm a recent transplant to Texas and didnt know the area or anyone in particular) we developed a healthy group of about 6-10 players who showed every saturday. We also met local Vets who had moved back to WHFB or Warmahordes. These vets, being long time customers of the stores, are the only people who ownership trusted to run tournaments since they dont run tourneys themselves. Since many of these vets have a bad taste in their mouth (much like the OPs encounter) about 40k, they run their tournaments and judge rule disputes based on their preference for previous 40k editions, it has caused a rift.
Personally, I am not playing in the next tourney in 31 MAR, nor have I played there in weeks. I used to play there religiously every saturday, now I cant remember the last time I made it two weekends in a row.
They claim their bias is intended to keep "new" players and "new" customers from getting steam rolled in tourneys and scared off. They claim they only want to bring in new people and grow the community. Yet, the drama and the rules interpretations, heavily comp tourneys and targeted comp nerfs have done just the opposite. I now travel three times as far to play in Houston, just because of what has changed. I dont buy my white dwarfs there any more, nor do I buy my models or comics there anymore. I'm not mad about it, I just have no desire to play there anymore.
Lanrak wrote:40k has 100s of pages of rules to cover its straight forward game play.(40k inspiring asthetic and straight forward game play are its stong points IMO.)
The same level of game play could be achived with less than 40 pages of rules.(If we used more apropriate game mechanics and resolution methods.)
Therfore 40k rules are unecissarily over complicated.(2 to 4 times more pages of rules than actualy necissary.)
Before you make these kinds of statements, you might want to do the relatively simple action of opening the rulebook to the contents page.
5th editions rules start on page 2, and continue to 95. So 93 pages. This covers every single rule for playing a game. Including the scenaries.
I'd like to know how you got 'hundreds' from under one hundred pages.
At the end of the day the best thing is avoid the haters.
At my local club there are a few people who sound very much like the guy described in OP. They are mainly active on the forum because they killed off people wanting to actually play their prefered system months ago.
The best thing is not to confront them, or to have any dealings with them, build up a group of people you want to play with and go from there.
Your issue is that you just keep poping in and throwing gak around. Then you act like your suprised when people call you on it.
40K is an impersonal game system, it has been for some time, but people WANT it. That is the deal.
Just because you have your issues, I have mine, or the OP's 40K fan club have thiers, it really at the end of the day doesn't matter.
The OP is trying to scare up some interest, then has a couple of nubs giving him gak, as do alot of people.
I used the template card to play 40K with, didn't have an issue. ONE cardstock, two sides. Didn't need "100's of pages".
Thats not even a here or there.
Just because you don't prefer a system, doesn't need people who do not even have a stake in you and an opponents game to slag it. ( and yes, the "you" is in general. not Lanrak.)
Back in the RT days, they had material that was prepped to slip into a three ring binder. I am here again, saying that 40K could really stand to go back to this system. The "100's of pages" was justified, they actually had content- and continued to add it through the White Dwarf.
Just saying, but with all of its negative issues, 40K/ Fantasy is available, people play it, and even if it is with its flaws, a comfortable game.
Hi guys..
Loki.
if you include the EXTRA SPECIAL RULES found in all the codexes,how many pages does that include?If there were no additional rules in the codexes/army books
40k would still have more pages of rules than necissary, compared to its straight forward game play.
Have you actualy compared the 40k rule set objectivly to any other rule sets?
Kaldor,
I have made objective assesments of rule set for years.
Please feel free to quote ANY current game mechanic method from the current 40k rule set that could not be replaced with a better alternative.*
Better defined as , more complex game play with similar complication, or same game complexity with far less complication in the rules .
Grot 6.
I simply pointed out the weaknesses of 40k.These should be made evdent to new players as well as the stong points , the asthetic and striaghtforward game play.
I understand people make a massive investment in thier preferred game system.And this means they get a strong emotional attachment to that particualr system.
BUT , most of the bad feeling happens when the game doesnt live up to expectations of the new player.
I have used refernce sheets with just 2 sides of A4 for games with far more complex game play than 40k has.Quick reference sheets are just that!(They tend to be 1 or 2 sides of A4)And have very little bearing on how complicated the rules are.
I LIKE 40KS GAMEPLAY, I LIKE 40k ASHTETIC,(i like the essense of the game.)
But comparitivley the rules are over complicated with patchy game support.(I dislike the inane decisions of the company that makes it,)
Unfortunaly to play the game, (good bits.) you have to put up the the company that controls its development and sells it.(Bad bits.)
ALL gamers play thier favorite games despite the flaws.But it is nice to know what the flaws are before you buy stuff , isnt it?
Name anything in life ever that can't be replaced with a better version.
A porcelain toilet could be a golden throne with a jet booster on the back that could fly me to Campus, yet also take care to steer me over a rival's house so that it might release my gak on it.
Henners91 wrote:
A porcelain toilet could be a golden throne with a jet booster on the back that could fly me to Campus, yet also take care to steer me over a rival's house so that it might release my gak on it.
I want one :(
It doesn't sound like a better version of the porcelain toilet...it sounds like a dangerous and difficult to operate short-range transportation device with a weird scatological fetish revenge mechanism built into it.
Not demanding improvement to a rules system that is constantly evolving sounds like a recipe for a downward spiral.
Perhaps my logic isn't infallible, but I merely intended to stake a point against an individual who I believe is popping up all over Dakka to toss flak at a game system quite unreservedly. Maybe some points are valid - but it seems like it's Lanrak's entire agenda for being here.
I have no idea about Lanraks' motives. I do know, however, that while I have a certain fondness for the IP, I have very little incentive to get back into 40k due to a feeling that the rule set has been "evolving" in circles for a long time. It is pretty sad, actually :(
People who hate mostly all had a bad experience or are just annoying pessimistic people to the bone (sorry haters, got an optimist here!) I've come accros some haters here and there, and even an all live hater who just, Idk he just had a bad youth or something I geuss. Some people just have their reasons but all should realize, there are just people who LIKE 40k and who LOVE the game, give those few unspoiled people a break. There are many 12 - 14 year olds at my Local GW store, love how excited they are about the cool miniatures and that is what it is all about. Some people ask me, 'why did you buy that, it is so damn expensive (this is about 10 pariahs I once bought)' I just tell them : Because, no matter the price, I love these models and everyday I look at them they make me feel good inside, this little tiny metall guys are little pieces of happiness I was able to buy!
Also I accept and find all other games intresting yet if one tells me about a game which Isn't 40k I just tell them, 'dude I don't play that, so I don't know anything about it, Its not that I don't like it, 40k is just my game
I am a little bit of a hater to this though, I don't like armies which aren't even painted up to like 20% if you just had a new squad or extra vehicles no point, as long as it's mostly painted, Also mixed painted armies make me feel uneasy. I have (being in college) very little time and my armies are way more painted up than people who, on the other hand, work and have much spare time. Something I am an hater too are proxies which are way out of hand! (this is because some guy fielded a mummy-like doll on a termie base telling me it was a Crisis suit O_o, since then I avoided using proxies, if you would see it, you would understand...)
Lanrak wrote:ALL gamers play thier favorite games despite the flaws.But it is nice to know what the flaws are before you buy stuff , isnt it?
And thats where you cross the line from being helpful, to being full of bullsquirt.
You are not some moral crusader helping to inform potential GW customers about their prices or rules systems, and even if you were you are GROSSLY MISINFORMED.
When someone displays behavior like that, stay unemotional and give them a bit more rope so they can continue to hang themselves;
"Do you feel that I'm a poor member of the community? I have done something to give you that impression?"
Then when then invariably mutter "Oh..wasn't really meaning you, I'm talking in general"---continue to gently press "Well, I certainly don't want anyone to feel estranged from a game due to poor behavior by another gamer--so if you could nail down how the community is bad, I'd love to address it"
When you hold up a mirror and show people how rude they are being--they will either back down (In which case you look good, as you didn't get confrontational) or double down (In which case you look good, as he will continue to put on a poor display for himself). Either way, great job on doing demo games--sound like an asset for your store.
Well, OP, I understand where you're coming from. I must say I myself am a bit guilty for ragging on a bit on other game systems, but thankfully not to any players of those systems. If I do spot someone playing Warmachines/Hordes/whatever else, I will casually stop by and see what's going on for a few minutes, then keep on going my merry way.
And as for people quitting 40k due to high prices or bad marketing or whatever, it's quite weird what some people do. I for example absolutely love 40K and the setting and all the models and the background, even though I despise the actual company for some of their moves. Their selling point is they make wonderful models and provide for a great game system, but they could be doing so much more, and yet it's not something I will just drop because of said reasons. I play because I like the models, I like painting them, and I like playing with like-minded people who are fun to hang out and be silly with.
Okay, I think I'm done here. /
Guilty of hating corporate GW decisions. Still like the game, the fluff, and have collected Tau/Necrons?IG/SM/Orks despite the GW rage. I just will not buy their glue/brushes/tools.
I like other games, and will occasionally do crossing over of the models for use as in 40k.
Hi Kaldor.
You comments confuse me.
Could you explain how being honest about a games strenghts and weakness with new players is 'bullsquirt'.
And that making potential gamers aware of the game systems flaws is a bad idea?
Could you expand your argument , and let me understand your motives.And can you explain why you feel I am grossly mis informed?
So I have a chance of defending myself from the acusation of being 'TFG'.
The problem is that you're being an evangelical 'informer' rather than someone who gives his opinion when it's due, methinks... probably evidenced by your repetition of the same opinion in various threads.
Lanrak wrote:Hi Kaldor.
You comments confuse me.
Could you explain how being honest about a games strenghts and weakness with new players is 'bullsquirt'.
And that making potential gamers aware of the game systems flaws is a bad idea?
Could you expand your argument , and let me understand your motives.And can you explain why you feel I am grossly mis informed?
So I have a change of defending myself from the acusation of being 'TFG'.
Just let it go Lanrak.
Dakka now needs to have a weekly thread for all the GW fanboys to congregate into, sing its praises (real or like in this case, imaginary) and balance all the negative threads that pop up. And this week it seems to be this thread...
Charles Rampant wrote:Because god forbid people who like 40k want to post about 40k on a forum largely relating to 40k? The very presumptuousness of the idea!
Not at all presumptuous, I just find it funny that the fanboys have to resort to go around patting each other on the back with, let us say, less than fully honest arguments, to try and make 40k look good...
There is liking something, then there is blindly following something. The same goes the opposite way, if we had a balance of the two we'd have a perfectly reasonable weekly thread and likely the streets would be paved with gold and various gems.
Charles Rampant wrote:Because god forbid people who like 40k want to post about 40k on a forum largely relating to 40k? The very presumptuousness of the idea!
Not at all presumptuous, I just find it funny that the fanboys have to resort to go around patting each other on the back with, let us say, less than fully honest arguments, to try and make 40k look good...
Couldn't care less what other people play, its a free country. I stick with GW games simply because I have 20 years of investment into their rules, models and lore, I don't really see the need to switch games systems because there's a more fashionable one out there. IF you like orange juice, and you know you like orange juice, why switch to pineapple?
PhantomViper wrote:
Not at all presumptuous, I just find it funny that the fanboys have to resort to go around patting each other on the back with, let us say, less than fully honest arguments, to try and make 40k look good...
Less than honest?
He pointed out that the rules arent that long because they only take up 93 pages (they do)
How is that less than honest?
I wasnt even going to reply to you (as always) but I tire of you being rude to people.
Its perfectly acceptable to hate GW, I dont have an issue with anyone that does. But what I find funny is how you feel the need to tell us all about it every single day, endlessly. Seriously, Its embarrassing, aren't you ashamed of yourself? I would be cringing with embarrassment just having the gall to sit and type half the things that you spam these forums with. Personally attacking people, using ad hominem attacks on people, simply because they happen to enjoy a hobby that you don't? Its fething shameful behaviour.
Humans are irascible creatures.. they hate loads of things, I understand that, but Ill give you an example.
Say I hate a musician.. who do I hate? I hate that Ed Sheeran bloke he will do. So what do I and 99% of other people do that feel the same? We ignore Ed Sheeran. Im aware that he has many fans, so I let them get to it. Thats how people do things. But you? You are basically trolling people on an epic level. Its like me purposely going out and joining Ed Sheerans facebook page, Twitter feed, Fan Club and gym. And then buying a house next door to him, with the express purpose of following him around, both in real life and virtually, and mocking him all day long.
Do you see me on Ed's facebook page calling all his fans names? Do you see me following him on Twitter loling at all his tweets and calling him a noob?
No. And here is the best bit.... you call people like me a Troll!
In the vain hope, that nobody notices that you are spending hours each day trolling a PLC, every shareholder, and several million people all at once.
PhantomViper wrote:
Not at all presumptuous, I just find it funny that the fanboys have to resort to go around patting each other on the back with, let us say, less than fully honest arguments, to try and make 40k look good...
Less than honest?
He pointed out that the rules arent that long because they only take up 93 pages (they do)
How is that less than honest?
I wasnt even going to reply to you (as always) but I tire of you being rude to people.
Its perfectly acceptable to hate GW, I dont have an issue with anyone that does. But what I find funny is how you feel the need to tell us all about it every single day, endlessly. Seriously, Its embarrassing, aren't you ashamed of yourself? I would be cringing with embarrassment just having the gall to sit and type half the things that you spam these forums with. Personally attacking people, using ad hominem attacks on people, simply because they happen to enjoy a hobby that you don't? Its fething shameful behaviour.
Humans are irascible creatures.. they hate loads of things, I understand that, but Ill give you an example.
Say I hate a musician.. who do I hate? I hate that Ed Sheeran bloke he will do. So what do I and 99% of other people do that feel the same? We ignore Ed Sheeran. Im aware that he has many fans, so I let them get to it. Thats how people do things. But you? You are basically trolling people on an epic level. Its like me purposely going out and joining Ed Sheerans facebook page, Twitter feed, Fan Club and gym. And then buying a house next door to him, with the express purpose of following him around, both in real life and virtually, and mocking him all day long.
Do you see me on Ed's facebook page calling all his fans names? Do you see me following him on Twitter loling at all his tweets and calling him a noob?
No. And here is the best bit.... you call people like me a Troll!
In the vain hope, that nobody notices that you are spending hours each day trolling a PLC, every shareholder, and several million people all at once.
PhantomViper wrote:
Not at all presumptuous, I just find it funny that the fanboys have to resort to go around patting each other on the back with, let us say, less than fully honest arguments, to try and make 40k look good...
Well said! Thats exactly how i feel about it.
What? You are going to have to expand on that since I have mattyrm blocked so I don't have to read any of his inanities, I don't actually know what you are agreeing with...
Chowderhead wrote:To Paraphrase, he told you to shut up and stop talking because he think's you're a despicable person and you're embarrassing yourself.
His words, not mine.
You don't need to paraphrase. PhantomViper saw what Mattyrm wrote, as ignoring someone does not make it so that you cannot see their posts when they are quoted--nor does it make it so that you cannot see their posts in the Thread Preview.
At this point, he's just fishing for attention so it's best to just place him on Ignore and carry about your day.
He pointed out that the rules arent that long because they only take up 93 pages (they do)
How is that less than honest?
If all the rules are contained within those 93 pages then, only using those 93 pages, explain to me how IG orders work. Or DE pain tokens. Or SW Sagas. Or Acts of Faith. Etc.
Or how to play a Planetstrike game. Or Spearhead.
Hint: Not all the rules required to play the game are within the core book. Even if just playing a game between two vanilla SM armies, you'll need Codex: Space Marines on top (though don't ask me how many pages of rules are within that tome, as I don't own a copy of the current edition).
The comparison which hits home here is Epic Armageddon, as described by infinite_array on page 5 of this thread:
infinite_array wrote:Well, let's look at another of GW's wargames - Epic Armageddon.
EA can be argued to be a more complex wargame than 40k (and heavens forbid we get into a discussion comparing EA to E40k or even older versions). If we take a look at the EA Compendium v2, we see that the entire ruleset - from what you need to play to tournament gaming - is 43 pages. That includes extra rules like spacecraft, drop landings, siege engines, and aircraft. The next 96 pages are the entirety of the game's army lists, from Space Marines to Squats.
So, EA manages to put into 138 pages what 40k cannot put into hundreds of pages in various rulebooks and codices.
The last line is, I suspect, the key one in this debate.
WM and 40k are different games and people just need to accept it.
I play multiple armies so the fact an army can go "unsupported" for years is okay with me. If you stick to one army I can see how that would bother you, but if you like to paint and convert models there's always the next army (or the next 4 armies) you want to do.
I also disagree with how people characterize GW not "supporting" their armies. When there's an army and not every model has been made for it, like Tyranids, I'd agree that it isn't being supported. If they release an army and all of its models exist and they don't update it for a few years than I wouldn't call that being "unsupported". They're just done with that army for that cycle. Get over it.
Honestly, I prefer GW's business model over PP's. PP will just release new figures for your army that kind of do what previous models already did, but the new ones will do it better or cheaper. Their idea of "support" is to put people on treadmills.
I'd be okay with PP's business model but the quality of their sculpts is really bad. There's a few gems here and there, but the line has gotten worse over years and it's starting to look like a range of Chronopia and Warzone rejects.
I don't think WM / H plays to the strengths of the system. It's a good skirmish / small army game. The system breaks down at 50 points (unless you like rolling 2d6 dozens of times every turn) and the game gets to be as expensive as 40k and more expensive than most Fantasy armies at 50 points.
Honestly, it comes down to either being okay that GW is constantly changing (except for times when you want them to change, in which case it'll take a decade) and that keeping up to date is part of what playing a GW game is all about. Or, you keep with a fairly static system like WM but have to keep adding new units to your armies because they will likely make your current units obsolete.
As for hating, yeah, it sucks. I would post about GW stuff on here more if it wasn't for people like HMBC. Some people here have created such a noxious attitude that it makes it impossible to be excited about anything, all because GW doesn't adhere to their very narrow beliefs of what they should be doing.
are these guys?" I ignored it. Later, as we were playing, Maximus commented on how he'd like to collect Malifaux. Leonidas' response was to sell any 
).
and yeah, I am still a bit sore at 
on the web.
