"Where are all the chicks?", my wife asks me. Being a trophy geek-wife, she is excited about video games, comics, collectibles, and other geek pursuits. And now that I am getting into 40k she is also taking a closer look. I suggested that the Orks seems to be more her play style and approach, which she was expectantly apprehensive of at first, but reluctantly accepted. But as she looked over the models, she makes the previous assessment. So, I look through all the various armies and find Sisters of Battle (flamethrower, melta chicks with power armor and jet packs? hell yeah!) and... well, nothing else really in specific. Sure, there are Eldar and some daemon. But other than that, the absurd amount of people fighting in space decided to leave their ladies at home it seems. To appease her I offered to help make tiny little pairs of ta-ta's for each and every ork in her army.
But that doesn't really solve the issue here. Of course, this is all merely based on my own personal experiences, but I have found that there are in fact quite a few girls who are not afraid to let their geek flag fly, and would rather see some strong female characters representing them on the field of battle. Hell, my other friends who are guys would like more female models simply to gawk at lecherously.
Considering orks grow from fungus and not breeding, there's no need for male or female "parts", are there?
I've seen some IG "female" bits in the form of some catachan models from GW and some 3rd party bits. Dark Eldar have female characters and several troop bits.
I would bet money that the next Cadian set would have them. Not sure why the current set doesn't.
Harriticus wrote:Hopeless cause this hobby and ladies will never go together no matter what you do
Yeah, this.
They don't mix at all, except in rare cases. The old Arundel Mills GW had a lady working there. She was pretty cool, and took her hobby seriously, but I don't think I've ever met another serious female gamer.
Space marines by fluff can't be girls so the vast majority of armies being played and models being made can't be girls.
There's a few concessions to gender diversity in the fighting forces, shadowsun, deamonettes, sisters, banshees, half the guardian/dire avenger torsos have tatas, etc.
"Strong female leads" in the media sense, rather than being reflective of what the TV trope term would actually suggest, are usually just femdom models and an extension of the obsessive pandering to male sexual gratification cloaked in an unsubtle veneer of "you go girl" feminist caricatures.
Basically big breasts and chakrams with skin tight leather suits tying men up while they cuddle with scantily clad submissive lesbian partners.
Anything like this is simply a non starter for actual feminists.
Fun fact, 110 pound waifs cannot beat up 230 pound men that play football and practice Jiu Jitsu. I don't care how jacked up you are on girl power. Women who actually kick ass are stinky, husky, and crass, and they have big biceps and square jaws. There's a reason the former are the archetypal "strong female lead" rather than the latter, and that reason is male sexual gratification.
Soccerlfb6 wrote:...all girls want is money...u spend a ton on this hobby...itll piss em off and c it as a waste...end of story ur money goes to them not models..
The lack of female models is due to GW not wanted to spend the extra money in creating alternative molds for different sexes, so they go by the most logical and base the molds on the male physique (unless the fluff background explicitly states that the soldiers are predominantly female. Consider that as their attempt at diversity)
The reason why you don't see that many female gamers is...same with video games I guess. They're a minority.
TedNugent wrote:
Think hard, here. Is this for men or for women?
Both. Women love imagining themselves as attractive just as much as we men do, they like to feel sexy and powerful, not look like men for the most part. I doubt many militant feminist lesbians play this game anyway.
But 40k would be awesome for having more female, black, and asian models in it. ANGRY ones.
Mr Nobody wrote:Tau could have plenty of female models, maybe they just look very similar to males. Add all that armour and no one can tell the difference.
Actually correct on this one, fire warriors are a mix of male and female units, all within armor, not to mention the females don't have breasts so there's not much of a need to show off.
Eldar has plenty of females as well.
There's one or two IG armies that have all female models.
Yes, I was serious.
I honestly had no idea what that was.
You won't believe how relieved I was when google turned out a community website concerning news articles
CthuluIsSpy wrote:Yes, I was serious.
I honestly had no idea what that was.
You won't believe how relieved I was when google turned out a community website concerning news articles
In all seriousness, Fark is one of those places on the internet that is well and truly "a good thing". As a news aggregator, it does a really good job and is pretty entertaining to boot. I recommend folks drop by occasionally, just to see what's up.
Now if you're in for even more entertainment, dropping into the comments threads is usually good for multiple lols.
(And no, I don't feel bad for this detour since this thread was doomed from the start.)
The main problem is that women haven't traditionally been warriors in most places at most times throughout history. Not only does this mean that it will culturally drive men rather than women to play a war game (and thus the company will want to make their product relatable to their main demographic), but it makes it much easier to just assume that everyone is male.
Of course, your hubby can always make an all-female army. As mentioned, there are conversion kits for guard, SoB is obviously all ladies, and it's also very possible to make an all-female eldar army, as not only is there blatantly female units, but guardians come with male and female torsos, making it pretty easy to kitbash. Likewise, there are plenty of female options for dark eldar as well.
If she wants the orks, though, just give them lipstick, and, well...
Testify wrote:I don't like musclular women therefore I'm a neckbeard. That's brilliant.
Reported.
Taking the internets a bit seriously?
You put your opinion on a picture in a discussion forum out there, don't be surprised if it gets reactions.
Back to the original post though... Playing with little men and going pew-pew has always been more of a male pursuit. Not that there aren't women who play, but they are just rarer. Add to that the anti-social tendencies of a large amount of the community and you have a recipe for few females in the hobby.
The whole thing is circular. Women don't play, there are relatively few female models. What came first? Doesn't matter, it is what it is. If GW could be convinced they could expand to include females as customers (themselves, not buying for a male), we would likely see more female models. But trying to integrate females into this hobby is difficult.
Ya'll are forgetting what happens when a female does play. Not only is she stared at, she is treated like prey. There inevitably is one or more dude who will not back off on demanding her attention. Makes any woman uncomfortable. Then there are the jerks who just have to "help". Constant, non stop, condescending remarks. Why play a game just to be treated like an idiot?
There are creative intelligent women who would be interested, such as those who play wow, d&d, etc. But not with the treatment they experience from the males in the hobby.
Hobbywise, this just isn't something your typical female is going to be interested in. There are a few here and there but it is a male centric hobby by attribute.
Modelwise,
Tau: There is almost no outward physical difference between male and female Tau, certaintly none that would show through the armor they wear.
Eldar and Dark Eldar: The model ranges are about 60/40 male female.
Space Marines: The process only works on males.
Orks: As a species they are asexual. No male or female.
Nids: Similer to orks, they are devoid of sexual definitions. You could see Termagants and Tervigons as being Female because they do reproduce but overall the Nids are devoid of this sort of thing. Genestealers hijack whatever reproduction system their targets happen to have so they would have females with certain races.
IG: This is due to GW not making plastic female sculpts. Some of the older ranges had some female models. There is also a partial fluff reason, women are seen as more valuable for making babies then as soldiers. On some planets the only women in the IG are those who are unable to have children. Even Cadia, a planet that is 100% militarized, keeps it's women close to home so the birth rate can be maintained.
Jonny_Awesome wrote:"Where are all the chicks?", my wife asks me. Being a trophy geek-wife, she is excited about video games, comics, collectibles, and other geek pursuits. And now that I am getting into 40k she is also taking a closer look. I suggested that the Orks seems to be more her play style and approach, which she was expectantly apprehensive of at first, but reluctantly accepted. But as she looked over the models, she makes the previous assessment. So, I look through all the various armies and find Sisters of Battle (flamethrower, melta chicks with power armor and jet packs? hell yeah!) and... well, nothing else really in specific. Sure, there are Eldar and some daemon. But other than that, the absurd amount of people fighting in space decided to leave their ladies at home it seems. To appease her I offered to help make tiny little pairs of ta-ta's for each and every ork in her army.
But that doesn't really solve the issue here. Of course, this is all merely based on my own personal experiences, but I have found that there are in fact quite a few girls who are not afraid to let their geek flag fly, and would rather see some strong female characters representing them on the field of battle. Hell, my other friends who are guys would like more female models simply to gawk at lecherously.
SO LET'S SEE 'EM! BRING ON THE LADIES!!
Ideas, thoughts, opinions?
the hobby is vagina repellent. chicks practically walk faster past the store to avoid seeing anything or hearing any of the conversations.
Yeah, and you can't discount the slow but steady rise of the nerd chic chick. Women have been getting into roleplaying (not that kind), anime (likewise), and a bunch of other nerdy things that were once the pure domain of socially awkward guys. It wouldn't surprise me if we start seeing a slow but steady rise in female wargammers as well.
Ailaros wrote:Yeah, and you can't discount the slow but steady rise of the nerd chic chick. Women have been getting into roleplaying (not that kind), anime (likewise), and a bunch of other nerdy things that were once the pure domain of socially awkward guys. It wouldn't surprise me if we start seeing a slow but steady rise in female wargammers as well.
Nothing wrong with that...in fact I'm a bit disappointed whenever someone says that 40k isn't for women. I expected we'd be above such petty ideas.
Hello all! I love the fact that this thread has gained so much attention and I'd like to introduce myself. I am the OP's wife I have just recently begun learning 40k and I am beginning with the Ork army. Please excuse any improper terminology as I have quite literally just begun playing. I brought up the fact that this hobby could have the potential to bring in more females if there were more female models. We discussed the possible profitability of sculpting breasts out of green stuff and had a laugh. From this I have gained some insight and some of the lines of thought are disturbing but all are helpful!
kronk wrote:Considering orks grow from fungus and not breeding, there's no need for male or female "parts", are there?
I've seen some IG "female" bits in the form of some catachan models from GW and some 3rd party bits. Dark Eldar have female characters and several troop bits.
I would bet money that the next Cadian set would have them. Not sure why the current set doesn't.
Awesome! I appreciate that there are some female troops and bits available to mod with, however your first statement does make a lot of sense as far as the orkz go. My only complaint is that they are distinctly labeled as "boyz" which thusly engenders them. My other line of thinking is that being plant life and having that as the explanation, could they be a bit more androgynous? They are clearly males, so maybe that extra fungus downstairs could migrate North a half inch or so?
Samus_aran115 wrote:
Harriticus wrote:Hopeless cause this hobby and ladies will never go together no matter what you do
Yeah, this.
They don't mix at all, except in rare cases. The old Arundel Mills GW had a lady working there. She was pretty cool, and took her hobby seriously, but I don't think I've ever met another serious female gamer.
The first bit makes me sad. This is the type of thinking that excludes us initially and drives us away if we dare tread on your territory. The second bit is encouraging but still sad. There should be many examples of women that are into gaming, but I do feel that there is a lot of adversity that we face when entering your sanctuaries.
Actinium wrote:Space marines by fluff can't be girls so the vast majority of armies being played and models being made can't be girls.
There's a few concessions to gender diversity in the fighting forces, shadowsun, deamonettes, sisters, banshees, half the guardian/dire avenger torsos have tatas, etc.
Totally understand the inability for Space Marine ladies, and I am excited to hear that there are some female models that you can think of easily. I would love to see some of these!
Testify wrote:Girls who ARE into 40k stay away from the GW shops because they're full of neckbeards who'll stare at them.
But there are some.
Sadly, this is true of most game stores. I went to our local store to meet some of the guys my husband was playing D&D with and one of them swept low and tried to take my hand to kiss it while saying, "Enchante". The rest of them just stopped what they were playing and there was about 15 seconds of silence as I made my way through. I feel excessively uncomfortable being there, but if the guys would stop looking at me as a female and just be accepting of the gaming part, they might be able to get to know me. This is true of all female gamers. We are into the same things you are. If you can show that you are interested in talking about commonalities as opposed to being preoccupied by my boobs, we may get along quite well. However, we can't get to that point if the guys glom onto us like we are a collector's edition figure or worse, stare at us as though attempting to summon us to them with Jedi mind powers.
Soccerlfb6 wrote:...all girls want is money...u spend a ton on this hobby...itll piss em off and c it as a waste...end of story ur money goes to them not models..
Wow. Actually, a lot of girls want a guy who can spell and speak properly. I see this as being a reply from a very bitter person and I am sorry that your experiences have hardened you. Did you actually read the OP?
TedNugent wrote:
Soccerlfb6 wrote:...all girls want is money...u spend a ton on this hobby...itll piss em off and c it as a waste...end of story ur money goes to them not models..
Exactly. Women like diamonds and shiz.
Again, I am sorry that you share this sad point of view. This is an expensive hobby, but I take pride in saying that my husband is a stay at home dad and I have financed all of his figures. as he said when I showed him this post, "These are my diamonds!" I must agree whole heartedly <3
Meade wrote:
TedNugent wrote:
Think hard, here. Is this for men or for women?
Both. Women love imagining themselves as attractive just as much as we men do, they like to feel sexy and powerful, not look like men for the most part. I doubt many militant feminist lesbians play this game anyway.
But 40k would be awesome for having more female, black, and asian models in it. ANGRY ones.
While I would agree that both sexes enjoy being attractive imagining themselves as such, I would have to say those models are for men. When my husband first started looking at the different armies he found these and showed them to me. I appreciate them, but I can't say I would ever play them. I find them to be masculine and intended to appeal to men who have dom fetishes. They are much to hard and they are even postured like men. On the other hand, I would love to also see racial diversity. It is not just the way you paint your models but in the unique facial features as well!
Mr Nobody wrote:Tau could have plenty of female models, maybe they just look very similar to males. Add all that armour and no one can tell the difference.
Good point! Although, as my husband pointed out, my play style is more balls to the wall which is well suited to the Boyz.
Ailaros wrote:The main problem is that women haven't traditionally been warriors in most places at most times throughout history. Not only does this mean that it will culturally drive men rather than women to play a war game (and thus the company will want to make their product relatable to their main demographic), but it makes it much easier to just assume that everyone is male.
Of course, your hubby can always make an all-female army. As mentioned, there are conversion kits for guard, SoB is obviously all ladies, and it's also very possible to make an all-female eldar army, as not only is there blatantly female units, but guardians come with male and female torsos, making it pretty easy to kitbash. Likewise, there are plenty of female options for dark eldar as well.
If she wants the orks, though, just give them lipstick, and, well...
It's not that hard to have ladies in a 40k army.
This made me laugh so hard!! Thank you!
Automatically Appended Next Post: You guys have been busy!
Gymnogyps wrote:The whole thing is circular. Women don't play, there are relatively few female models. What came first? Doesn't matter, it is what it is. If GW could be convinced they could expand to include females as customers (themselves, not buying for a male), we would likely see more female models. But trying to integrate females into this hobby is difficult.
Ya'll are forgetting what happens when a female does play. Not only is she stared at, she is treated like prey. There inevitably is one or more dude who will not back off on demanding her attention. Makes any woman uncomfortable. Then there are the jerks who just have to "help". Constant, non stop, condescending remarks. Why play a game just to be treated like an idiot?
There are creative intelligent women who would be interested, such as those who play wow, d&d, etc. But not with the treatment they experience from the males in the hobby.
This is a major problem! We are constantly being lorded over and being treated as inferior or even stupid. Someone asked me if I was comfortable playing because it was something that smart guys play. I was so hurt. I realized that in some people's eyes not only was my gender holding me back but that they thought I was not clever or intelligent enough to play war games...
Grey Templar wrote:Hobbywise, this just isn't something your typical female is going to be interested in. There are a few here and there but it is a male centric hobby by attribute.
Modelwise,
Tau: There is almost no outward physical difference between male and female Tau, certaintly none that would show through the armor they wear.
Eldar and Dark Eldar: The model ranges are about 60/40 male female.
Space Marines: The process only works on males.
Orks: As a species they are asexual. No male or female.
Nids: Similer to orks, they are devoid of sexual definitions. You could see Termagants and Tervigons as being Female because they do reproduce but overall the Nids are devoid of this sort of thing. Genestealers hijack whatever reproduction system their targets happen to have so they would have females with certain races.
IG: This is due to GW not making plastic female sculpts. Some of the older ranges had some female models. There is also a partial fluff reason, women are seen as more valuable for making babies then as soldiers. On some planets the only women in the IG are those who are unable to have children. Even Cadia, a planet that is 100% militarized, keeps it's women close to home so the birth rate can be maintained.
Thank you for this! I love learning about lore no matter what realm, so I found this interesting and I want to look into IG now.
Tadashi wrote:
Ailaros wrote:Yeah, and you can't discount the slow but steady rise of the nerd chic chick. Women have been getting into roleplaying (not that kind), anime (likewise), and a bunch of other nerdy things that were once the pure domain of socially awkward guys. It wouldn't surprise me if we start seeing a slow but steady rise in female wargammers as well.
Nothing wrong with that...in fact I'm a bit disappointed whenever someone says that 40k isn't for women. I expected we'd be above such petty ideas.
I have also heard this, and it is very discouraging. I mean, doesn't every guy that is into war gaming or any other subculture hobby want more females around so that they can find someone who can relate to what they are into? It's entirely counterintuitive to furthering the nerd species to exclude us
kitsunecutie wrote:... If you can show that you are interested in talking about commonalities as opposed to being preoccupied by my boobs, we may get along quite well.
Here is a hint. All straight males are " preoccupied by boobs" It is in our nature, we can not help it...
My mom made a similar comment about the WHFB Dwarf range when I was showing it to her on GW's website. I was curious to see if she'd be interested enough in the dwarves for me to start up a Dwarf army for her to use when we play WHFB instead of our usual WH40k, since I know she likes dwarves.
Fortunately, my mom and I don't play with anyone else, so it would be quite feasible for me to pick up some female dwarf minis from Reaper Miniatures and use them here and there in place of GW dwarves.
kitsunecutie wrote:
While I would agree that both sexes enjoy being attractive imagining themselves as such, I would have to say those models are for men. When my husband first started looking at the different armies he found these and showed them to me. I appreciate them, but I can't say I would ever play them. I find them to be masculine and intended to appeal to men who have dom fetishes. They are much to hard and they are even postured like men. On the other hand, I would love to also see racial diversity. It is not just the way you paint your models but in the unique facial features as well!
Lol, they are battle sisters after all... in a sexist, racist, totalitarian, grimdark future... they need to be a bit tough. I suppose that a better way to make my point is to say that every woman is different, period. There are even women with dom fetishes. It's a bit of a niche market to be sure, but that's why you have space elves! Anyway I think there are better examples of battle sisters models than the example there, which is admittedly a bit extreme. Anyway, men (who tend to be overweight and have beards), play as 8-foot tall, square-jawed genetically engineered perfect specimens of male physique. They don't play with tiny versions of themselves. Although they may play with models that are bearded (it's the one ethnic minority that GW does a good job representing).
Yeah with all the talk about Eldar and female IG (and that one disturbing female ork *shudder*) people have overlooked the army that is 98% female? Sisters of Battle? Angry bitches with fire. 24/7 period, 100% flame.
I should hope that women would be supported for expressing interest in this hobby.
I know I would feel loved if a spouse supported me in my hobby.
But, it comes down to a matter of whether or not you, personally, are interested in the hobby. Have you found any reason to get excited about 40k? If this game does it for you, as is, then there's no reason you shouldn't be able to grow a neckbeard and join the slovenly nerd masses in tabletop carnage.
come to think of it now, if you count tyranids, then DE, Eldar, battle sisters, Daemons, and the inquisition part of grey knights, all have great Fem options If you group marines into one, then marines, guard, orks and necrons are all dudes. So that seems pretty even. And you know Tyranids are all girls... they are the only race that has babies on the tabletop, and if they are anything like social insects all of them are female
Orks are technically sexless but the imagery is masculine, same goes for 'crons
My girlfriend plays Necrons. She isn't particulary interested in female armies.
And tomorrow I'm playing a game with my friend and his girlfriend, her first time. Doesn't seem that rare to me but I haven't played in any stores yet.
As for the models, I have a female commissar and a female lasgun warrior. Helps diversify my guard up.
I don't see why a female has to play a female army, that's like looking at a male who plays Sisters of Battle strangely. The gender, or lack thereof, in your armies doesn't reflect upon the player at all.
Shadowbrand wrote:Space Marines can't have secks.
I don't think that's every been said for certain, as far as I can recall.
Really, cause my friends wife plays Menoth in Warmachine and Dark Eldar/ Space Marines in 40k. We played a team game last night against her husband. We had a four way team game, it was sexy. Wait...
kronk wrote:Considering orks grow from fungus and not breeding, there's no need for male or female "parts", are there?
I've seen some IG "female" bits in the form of some catachan models from GW and some 3rd party bits. Dark Eldar have female characters and several troop bits.
I would bet money that the next Cadian set would have them. Not sure why the current set doesn't.
Awesome! I appreciate that there are some female troops and bits available to mod with, however your first statement does make a lot of sense as far as the orkz go. My only complaint is that they are distinctly labeled as "boyz" which thusly engenders them. My other line of thinking is that being plant life and having that as the explanation, could they be a bit more androgynous? They are clearly males, so maybe that extra fungus downstairs could migrate North a half inch or so?
And what, have it hang out of their navels I joke
Really with enough willpower, greenstuff, and time, you can make any army look however you want.
However you have picked one of the most testosterone infused armies in 40k (second only to the “sphess mahreins”) to play. You have to realize that everything about them, from the rules, to the fluff (lore/backstory) to the models is going to drip with manly stank. GW did not really create the ork range with female players in mind. Tbh they didn’t really create any of the armies with female players in mind. It’s just how it is unfortunately.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hazardous Harry wrote:I don't see why a female has to play a female army, that's like looking at a male who plays Sisters of Battle strangely. The gender, or lack thereof, in your armies doesn't reflect upon the player at all.
Shadowbrand wrote:Space Marines can't have secks.
I don't think that's every been said for certain, as far as I can recall.
It hasn't and it annoys me that people keep saying it.
Hazardous Harry wrote:I don't see why a female has to play a female army, that's like looking at a male who plays Sisters of Battle strangely. The gender, or lack thereof, in your armies doesn't reflect upon the player at all.
Shadowbrand wrote:Space Marines can't have secks.
I don't think that's every been said for certain, as far as I can recall.
It hasn't and it annoys me that people keep saying it.
They are chemically castrated, as was listed in the 2nd edition dex.
As it hasn't been proven to have a space marine with someone, it's still pretty much canon.
Ma55ter_fett wrote:Really with enough willpower, greenstuff, and time, you can make any army look however you want.
However you have picked one of the most testosterone infused armies in 40k (second only to the “sphess mahreins”) to play. You have to realize that everything about them, from the rules, to the fluff (lore/backstory) to the models is going to drip with manly stank. GW did not really create the ork range with female players in mind. Tbh they didn’t really create any of the armies with female players in mind. It’s just how it is unfortunately.
Huh... My mom likes the Orks. And the Space Marines.
Sorry to keep bringing up my mom, it's just that I don't really socialize much outside the house, so I don't have many friends of any gender.
Unreg1stered wrote:My girlfriend plays Necrons. She isn't particulary interested in female armies.
And tomorrow I'm playing a game with my friend and his girlfriend, her first time. Doesn't seem that rare to me but I haven't played in any stores yet.
As for the models, I have a female commissar and a female lasgun warrior. Helps diversify my guard up.
I know other girls who play as well, the problem is that they don't seem to stay interested for long with games like 40k for whatever reason. It's usually the modeling aspect that they like but playing is a a part they do just to get to spend time with their significant other and share in something they enjoy. Which is not a bad thing at all, it's just that most girls I've met who "play" really only play as long as they can stand it, which for some has only been a few games. As someone else mentioned it's truly a male targeted and focused game. I know guys who knit, but that doesn't mean it's the norm =/
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Pouncey wrote:
Ma55ter_fett wrote:Really with enough willpower, greenstuff, and time, you can make any army look however you want.
However you have picked one of the most testosterone infused armies in 40k (second only to the “sphess mahreins”) to play. You have to realize that everything about them, from the rules, to the fluff (lore/backstory) to the models is going to drip with manly stank. GW did not really create the ork range with female players in mind. Tbh they didn’t really create any of the armies with female players in mind. It’s just how it is unfortunately.
Huh... My mom likes the Orks. And the Space Marines.
Sorry to keep bringing up my mom, it's just that I don't really socialize much outside the house, so I don't have many friends of any gender.
*insert joke about how we all love bringing up your mom*
*insert joke about how the only things you can socialize with in Canada are moose, beavers, and maple syrup*
I'm a woman who loves 40k... so I'll try to offer my perspective on this as concisely as I can.
Seriously, let her pick her own army!
I don't think advising anyone on which army they choose is a really effective way of getting them into the hobby at all. Choosing one's army is a personal thing: you have to feel attached to them, right? You want to feel like those are YOUR guys on the battlefield: like you are ONE of them... that would never work if someone chose an army because someone else said they should.
It's perfectly within the realms of possibility for women to become attached to armies strongly composed of males.
Also, in my view, there is absolutely NO shortage of "lecherous gawking". I assume (so take this with a pinch of salt - it has been the way for me, it may not be this way for other women), it's already a huge reason as to why women are so repelled by taking this whole thing up in the first place. -
I'd hate for miniatures to exist purely because of either "gawking" purposes, (there is only war! If there's time to just stand there with yer tits out, GTFO the battlefield!) or the hopes that that particular race will encourage more female players... for the male players to gawk at the moment they enter the store and creep them out / be massively intimidating...
TheSinheizer wrote:I'm a woman who loves 40k... so I'll try to offer my perspective on this as concisely as I can.
Seriously, let her pick her own army!
I don't think advising anyone on which army they choose is a really effective way of getting them into the hobby at all. Choosing one's army is a personal thing: you have to feel attached to them, right? You want to feel like those are YOUR guys on the battlefield: like you are ONE of them... that would never work if someone chose an army because someone else said they should.
kitsunecutie wrote:
The first bit makes me sad. This is the type of thinking that excludes us initially and drives us away if we dare tread on your territory. The second bit is encouraging but still sad. There should be many examples of women that are into gaming, but I do feel that there is a lot of adversity that we face when entering your sanctuaries.
I really do feel like I'm treading on thin ice or something when I sometimes interact with other male gamers.
kitsunecutie wrote:
Sadly, this is true of most game stores. I went to our local store to meet some of the guys my husband was playing D&D with and one of them swept low and tried to take my hand to kiss it while saying, "Enchante". The rest of them just stopped what they were playing and there was about 15 seconds of silence as I made my way through. I feel excessively uncomfortable being there, but if the guys would stop looking at me as a female and just be accepting of the gaming part, they might be able to get to know me. This is true of all female gamers. We are into the same things you are. If you can show that you are interested in talking about commonalities as opposed to being preoccupied by my boobs, we may get along quite well. However, we can't get to that point if the guys glom onto us like we are a collector's edition figure or worse, stare at us as though attempting to summon us to them with Jedi mind powers.
LOL! Made me crack up!! XD
kitsunecutie wrote:
Soccerlfb6 wrote:...all girls want is money...u spend a ton on this hobby...itll piss em off and c it as a waste...end of story ur money goes to them not models..
Wow. Actually, a lot of girls want a guy who can spell and speak properly. I see this as being a reply from a very bitter person and I am sorry that your experiences have hardened you. Did you actually read the OP?
TedNugent wrote:
Soccerlfb6 wrote:...all girls want is money...u spend a ton on this hobby...itll piss em off and c it as a waste...end of story ur money goes to them not models..
Exactly. Women like diamonds and shiz.
Again, I am sorry that you share this sad point of view. This is an expensive hobby, but I take pride in saying that my husband is a stay at home dad and I have financed all of his figures. as he said when I showed him this post, "These are my diamonds!" I must agree whole heartedly <3
You are so badass, and I conquer! Sometimes, just sometimes... 40k is a girls best friend. ^_^
The only time a diamond would be my best friend, might be if my boyfriend were to propose to me by hiding the ring inside a drop pod.
kitsunecutie wrote:
While I would agree that both sexes enjoy being attractive imagining themselves as such, I would have to say those models are for men. When my husband first started looking at the different armies he found these and showed them to me. I appreciate them, but I can't say I would ever play them. I find them to be masculine and intended to appeal to men who have dom fetishes. They are much to hard and they are even postured like men. On the other hand, I would love to also see racial diversity. It is not just the way you paint your models but in the unique facial features as well!
I've actually never heard that perspective before! To me, their stance and posture were spot-on for being in battle... I think some muscularity can logically only be a good and relevant thing for women who are fighting. The only gripe I have would be sexiness, like as in.. bare boobs, slender bodies, not much armour and so on. Although I don't have an issue with Slaanesh (the new ones; I can't stand some of the old ones - they just look way too conventional for my liking). It just seems to match their fluff more.
kitsunecutie wrote:
This is a major problem! We are constantly being lorded over and being treated as inferior or even stupid. Someone asked me if I was comfortable playing because it was something that smart guys play. I was so hurt. I realized that in some people's eyes not only was my gender holding me back but that they thought I was not clever or intelligent enough to play war games...
This actually infuriates me... I've never known the likes of this with ANY other hobby. It's just so unfortunate.
kitsunecutie wrote:
I have also heard this, and it is very discouraging. I mean, doesn't every guy that is into war gaming or any other subculture hobby want more females around so that they can find someone who can relate to what they are into? It's entirely counterintuitive to furthering the nerd species to exclude us
TheSinheizer wrote:
I really do feel like I'm treading on thin ice or something when I sometimes interact with other male gamers.
Then lighten up. Nobody likes walking on eggshells.
Believe me, I find them even less attractive then you do.
I used to work with girls at a videogame store. It's no problem. You're there, you work, you chat about stuff. If they're socially awkward or incapable of communicating with you in a sensible way, that's their problem. If you're incapable of being around men, well - maybe that's your problem. You're going to see a lot of men throughout your life, you might as well learn how to deal with it.
TedNugent wrote:[quote=TheSinheizer
What army do you play?
Maybe you could give the OP some ideas
Currently Chaos Daemons and Dark Eldar, though after the Space Marine game and the Ultramarines movie, I am actually very slowly coming around to wanting my very own SPESS MERHENS... I never thought it possible.
The biggest reasons I love CD and DE are because of their appearance and their background. Though I'd always advise people choose armies based on a true feeling of "If I were in the 40k world, I would BE one of those..." Plus, the more attached you feel to a certain army, the more likely you are to want to find out as much as you can about them, constantly improving your knowledge and really getting the feel of how they function. Because of the ability to feel so linked to an army it is without any shame that I say I don't play to win.. If I wanted to play to win I'd have just asked who were the absolute easiest race to tear it up with, leaving out all of the precious stuff which drew me to 40k in the first place.
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TedNugent wrote:
TheSinheizer wrote:
I really do feel like I'm treading on thin ice or something when I sometimes interact with other male gamers.
Then lighten up. Nobody likes walking on eggshells.
Believe me, I find them even less attractive then you do.
I used to work with girls at a videogame store. It's no problem. You're there, you work, you chat about stuff. If they're socially awkward or incapable of communicating with you in a sensible way, that's their problem. If you're incapable of being around men, well - maybe that's your problem. You're going to see a lot of men throughout your life, you might as well learn how to deal with it.
There's a huge difference between interacting with men, and interacting with people who are being asses.
Not all male gamers are the same way, by any stretch of the imagination, but, in my experience, a large portion are anything from intimidating to outright insulting. And yes, the truth is that because of that, I feel like I'm walking on eggshells. I'm just saying, it'd be nice if this hobby were more welcoming..
TheSinheizer wrote:
Currently Chaos Daemons and Dark Eldar, though after the Space Marine game and the Ultramarines movie, I am actually very slowly coming around to wanting my very own SPESS MERHENS... I never thought it possible.
What Chaos God do you prefer and are there any models that you would recommend?
In particular, what Deldar models?
TheSinheizer wrote:
There's a huge difference between interacting with men, and interacting with people who are being asses.
Not all male gamers are the same way, by any stretch of the imagination, but, in my experience, a large portion are anything from intimidating to outright insulting. And yes, the truth is that because of that, I feel like I'm walking on eggshells. I'm just saying, it'd be nice if this hobby were more welcoming..
No reason to tolerate that. I'll put it on the docket that we need a little more self policing of our sweaty overbearing behavior. Suffice to say, it's certainly not acceptable for anyone to be outright intimidating women, under any circumstances. That goes from rude to sick behavior, and I wouldn't fault anybody for wigging out and shimmying out the building in short order if some neckbeard started wheezing insults at them. You might want to consider bringing a friend with you if they get that outrageous. I certainly wouldn't tolerate anyone treating me like that.
Keep in mind, there's a reason most men avoid gaming conventions. I liked to think that gamers were more of big hairy teddybears that eat cheetos and don't care too much about personal hygeine. I guess not. Whatever gaming group you've been to is clearly not a very good one. I wouldn't want to play there.
Saying that a woman is going to be more interested in playing armies with female models is just pigeonholing them into a different pigeon hole.
It's kinda rude. That's like me telling my male friends "Oh no, you have to stay away from SoB - that's ONLY FOR CHICKS, geddit?"
Let people play what they want to play. The only thing I advise against is joining the mindless masses that play marines. If that's what you really want to do, then fine, but there are already enough power armored armies in the game.
Anyway, another beef. Perhaps women shun the hobby because they either get stared at, or overly preferential treatment. Both are rather distasteful. Problem is, 90% of our hobby is made up of 20-30 year old guys with a complete lack of social skills, so it's an awkward transition.
They are chemically castrated, as was listed in the 2nd edition dex.
As it hasn't been proven to have a space marine with someone, it's still pretty much canon.
Since there are no children with SM heritage it's safe to say they can't reproduce, it's just never explicitly stated that they are incapable of having sex.
And forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't 2nd edition the one with the half-elf librarian?
Chesh wrote:Saying that a woman is going to be more interested in playing armies with female models is just pigeonholing them into a different pigeon hole.
It's kinda rude. That's like me telling my male friends "Oh no, you have to stay away from SoB - that's ONLY FOR CHICKS, geddit?"
Let people play what they want to play. The only thing I advise against is joining the mindless masses that play marines. If that's what you really want to do, then fine, but there are already enough power armored armies in the game.
Wow. This thread is like a "who to avoid on DD" userlist. Some exceptions, but page 1 in particular. Just.. Wow.
Female gamer, Nid player, takin' notes.
Unless you want male-gaze cheesecake (Daemonettes, DEldar, Assassins, et cetera), SoB, Eldar & Tau are the only races that really offer any female options. I don't know why GW are so against having female/mixed gender Guard models, feth knows there're enough in the fluff.
Actually i knew a Japanese girl a few years back who loved 40k.
Probably had the largest extensive army of Tau models i've ever seen. It was her primary army and she used to railgun all my friends to death except for the Necron player who would rely upon the Pre-Matt Ward "Unstoppable March of Doom." tactic of Move-Shoot-Move.
And yet she never CosPlayed as them - she liked dressing up as CSM/Dark Eldar instead.
Ma55ter_fett wrote:Really with enough willpower, greenstuff, and time, you can make any army look however you want.
However you have picked one of the most testosterone infused armies in 40k (second only to the “sphess mahreins”) to play. You have to realize that everything about them, from the rules, to the fluff (lore/backstory) to the models is going to drip with manly stank. GW did not really create the ork range with female players in mind. Tbh they didn’t really create any of the armies with female players in mind. It’s just how it is unfortunately.
Huh... My mom likes the Orks. And the Space Marines.
Sorry to keep bringing up my mom, it's just that I don't really socialize much outside the house, so I don't have many friends of any gender.
My point isn't that women won't like them.
My point is that it’s a little silly to look through the ork codex which is full of this
(Green men who shoot bullshark hormones into their bums)
And wonder why GW makes no female or gender neutral orks. It’s simply not what the faction is about, it’s about packed hordes of dirty sweating green skinned space dudes participating in balls to the wall crazy warfare. Which ironically seems a little homosexual now that I say it.
Your mother also illustrates the point that not every women needs to see a plethora of female models to like the athletics’ of an army.
If that is what a person wants though, green stuff + time = miracles
Orks are not only aggressive, hard as nails, and crass, they're also silly and lighthearted, which makes them adorable. Any woman worth their salt would love Orks.
They are chemically castrated, as was listed in the 2nd edition dex.
As it hasn't been proven to have a space marine with someone, it's still pretty much canon.
Since there are no children with SM heritage it's safe to say they can't reproduce, it's just never explicitly stated that they are incapable of having sex.
And forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't 2nd edition the one with the half-elf librarian?
Forget which books, but there was one where a marine was angry for someone having suggested they would entertain thoughts about women, saying their will is too strong or some such, indicating that they simply choose not to.
Also, wasn't there something about space wolves getting chicks? I dunno
Grey Templar wrote:I would say orks are the classical "extremely manly man" steriotype
this wasn't a homo deal until gays decided to hijack the image.
I don't think they hijacked the image as much as the stereotypical gay guy is much more concerned about his image than the stereotypical straight guy, and as such more likely to be in better shape. Regardless, it doesn't have much to do with the topic, does it?
Ma55ter_fett wrote:Really with enough willpower, greenstuff, and time, you can make any army look however you want.
However you have picked one of the most testosterone infused armies in 40k (second only to the “sphess mahreins”) to play. You have to realize that everything about them, from the rules, to the fluff (lore/backstory) to the models is going to drip with manly stank. GW did not really create the ork range with female players in mind. Tbh they didn’t really create any of the armies with female players in mind. It’s just how it is unfortunately.
Huh... My mom likes the Orks. And the Space Marines.
Sorry to keep bringing up my mom, it's just that I don't really socialize much outside the house, so I don't have many friends of any gender.
My point isn't that women won't like them.
My point is that it’s a little silly to look through the ork codex which is full of this
(Green men who shoot bullshark hormones into their bums)
And wonder why GW makes no female or gender neutral orks. It’s simply not what the faction is about, it’s about packed hordes of dirty sweating green skinned space dudes participating in balls to the wall crazy warfare. Which ironically seems a little homosexual now that I say it.
Your mother also illustrates the point that not every women needs to see a plethora of female models to like the athletics’ of an army.
If that is what a person wants though, green stuff + time = miracles
Huh... I thought that there were no female Orks because Orks reproduce asexually.
Although... There is that Ork cheerleader from the Blood Bowl range.
Is it really that bad for some people? This one shop I go to has a moderate amount of females, maybe it's the whole "Ma and Pa" store atmosphere and the fact that most of them are in their 40s-50s that we don't have the whole gawking thing going on.
Ma55ter_fett wrote:Really with enough willpower, greenstuff, and time, you can make any army look however you want.
However you have picked one of the most testosterone infused armies in 40k (second only to the “sphess mahreins”) to play. You have to realize that everything about them, from the rules, to the fluff (lore/backstory) to the models is going to drip with manly stank. GW did not really create the ork range with female players in mind. Tbh they didn’t really create any of the armies with female players in mind. It’s just how it is unfortunately.
Huh... My mom likes the Orks. And the Space Marines.
Sorry to keep bringing up my mom, it's just that I don't really socialize much outside the house, so I don't have many friends of any gender.
My point isn't that women won't like them.
My point is that it’s a little silly to look through the ork codex which is full of this
(Green men who shoot bullshark hormones into their bums)
And wonder why GW makes no female or gender neutral orks. It’s simply not what the faction is about, it’s about packed hordes of dirty sweating green skinned space dudes participating in balls to the wall crazy warfare. Which ironically seems a little homosexual now that I say it.
Your mother also illustrates the point that not every women needs to see a plethora of female models to like the athletics’ of an army.
If that is what a person wants though, green stuff + time = miracles
Huh... I thought that there were no female Orks because Orks reproduce asexually.
Although... There is that Ork cheerleader from the Blood Bowl range.
Orks are not only aggressive, hard as nails, and crass, they're also silly and lighthearted, which makes them adorable. Any woman worth their salt would love Orks.
My gf is into 40k, she's taken a shine to Daemons, loves the gore and fangs, doesn't care that most of the models are "men" and I guess you could say my necron army is all females.
Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:so great how few people actually read the OP...
Mmh.
Of course, there is the interesting phenomenon where people read the OP, understand it, keep reading the thread before posting, and someone who didn't read the full post posts something related only to the thread title, and then the new person gets sidetracked, with their only constant reference to the original post being the title at the top of the browser window.
Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:so great how few people actually read the OP...
I read the OP, and I read the rest of the posts. Do you really wanna be "That Guy" who reposts something that's already been said, simply because it answers a question asked 2-3 pages ago before the topic diverged to something new?
The question was: "What about female warriors in the 40k universe?" and the answer came within a few posts: SoB, Dark/Eldar, Tau, and arguably Nids (and some IG). That's a pretty complete answer, and if you can't add anything to it, then why bother posting?
You might as well just post "+1" with nothing else.
Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:so great how few people actually read the OP...
I read the OP, and I read the rest of the posts. Do you really wanna be "That Guy" who reposts something that's already been said, simply because it answers a question asked 2-3 pages ago before the topic diverged to something new?
The question was: "What about female warriors in the 40k universe?" and the answer came within a few posts: SoB, Dark/Eldar, Tau, and arguably Nids (and some IG). That's a pretty complete answer, and if you can't add anything to it, then why bother posting?
You might as well just post "+1" with nothing else.
TheSinheizer wrote:There's a huge difference between interacting with men, and interacting with people who are being asses.
Not all male gamers are the same way, by any stretch of the imagination, but, in my experience, a large portion are anything from intimidating to outright insulting. And yes, the truth is that because of that, I feel like I'm walking on eggshells. I'm just saying, it'd be nice if this hobby were more welcoming..
Heh, I'd be surprised if I could intimidate anyone.
I tried to fight off some bullies once, a bit over ten years ago. Managed one kick. Don't think it even made contact.
And I try hard not to be insulting. My social anxiety keeps me thinking about some of the worse things that could happen when I talk with strangers. Like when one woman in line at the local GW and I were having a bit of a chat, and I refrained from mentioning that I'm schizophrenic despite my desire to - the conversation was initially an off-hand comment to her son about how I was buying a lot of stuff, and eventually it got to the point where I felt compelled to mention that I'm on disability. The conversation turned to silence right after that.
I refrained from mentioning that particular fact, because of the general public perception of schizophrenics - especially since just a year or two prior, there was a very large news story about a schizophrenic man who had killed someone on a bus on the other side of the country. To be honest, one of my thoughts was that if I mentioned it, she'd call for security or something.
Point is, when it comes to talking to strangers, I'm the one walking on eggshells, because I fear unintentionally insulting them and getting into a hugely awkward if not dangerous situation. There have been cases where I've said something, and the person I was talking to took it to mean something else that they found insulting, and I couldn't think of another way to explain it, so eventually, as I feebly tried to describe what I meant by trying to say it with a different tone of voice and emphasis, I got yelled at by my own parents and the person I was talking to. And that was with a friend.
We aren’t, however it seems that I lack the ability to get my point across.
Hence my frustration
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Pouncey wrote:
and eventually it got to the point where I felt compelled to mention that I'm on disability.
I can't claim to be a super smooth talker (see above) but I think in general it is advantageous to avoid such revelations when talking to a stranger in public, especially if they are a member of the opposite sex.
Ma55ter_fett wrote:
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Pouncey wrote:
and eventually it got to the point where I felt compelled to mention that I'm on disability.
I can't claim to be a super smooth talker (see above) but I think in general it is advantageous to avoid such revelations when talking to a stranger in public, especially if they are a member of the opposite sex.
Advantageous for what?
Edit: I should also mention that she made that off-hand comment to her son that started the conversation, not me. She then started talking to me about how I was lucky that my parents pay for such things - apparently I look younger than I am. I replied that I pay for them myself. She then commented to her son about jobs or something - her son was too young to work, she was referring to the future - at which point I commented that I don't work, but I live with my parents. At that point or after she said something else, I think I mentioned the disability thing. That's pretty much all I remember about the conversation, and I'm probably wrong about the order.
But, I am a bit apprehensive about mentioning that I'm on disability, especially while making such a purchase - I think I was buying 4-5 boxes of things at the time, but I don't remember - because of the comments my dad finds in his online browsing of news sites about the horrors of people on disability receiving any money at all beyond the bare essentials to survive. I could just picture her making such a post about her shock at such a thing.
Ma55ter_fett wrote:
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Pouncey wrote:
and eventually it got to the point where I felt compelled to mention that I'm on disability.
I can't claim to be a super smooth talker (see above) but I think in general it is advantageous to avoid such revelations when talking to a stranger in public, especially if they are a member of the opposite sex.
Advantageous for what?
For continuing the conversation, for making casual acquaintances, not having people think you're weird.
Ma55ter_fett wrote:
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Pouncey wrote:
and eventually it got to the point where I felt compelled to mention that I'm on disability.
I can't claim to be a super smooth talker (see above) but I think in general it is advantageous to avoid such revelations when talking to a stranger in public, especially if they are a member of the opposite sex.
Advantageous for what?
For continuing the conversation, for making casual acquaintances, not having people think you're weird.
Ahh. Yeah, my social skills are a bit limited, I'll admit.
Aaaaaaaaaand, we're right back to why more women don't play 40k.
Time spent away from "society at large" leads to a lack of social skills, which leads to awkward conversation, which leads to more time spent away from "society at large". It's a big downward spiral from there - or a small one, depending.
This is especially a problem between heterosexual males and females (of all gender identities or preferences, sadly). Females expect a certain intimacy that social awkwardness prevents, far moreso than men do - and before you get all "up in my grill" about how you're different, please realize that this is a well documented and scientifically proven difference between the sexes. Interestingly enough, homosexual men don't have this problem with females, but will often have it with other men, but I digress.
I wonder how many people win major tournaments but still have the crippling social awkwardness that makes the tabletop wargamers the "outcasts" of geekery at large. In a lot of respects, someone who succeeds at something - anything - is generally a well-liked and sociable person, simply because "winners" share a certain amount of desirable traits and are almost all socialized, to some extent.
I think I'll propose that to the IRB as a study and start fishing for grants. Being able to get grants to fund my 40k addiction? Oh hells yeah!
My problem with the inclusion of female models is that since gw focuses on young males the models will be extremely stripperiffic. Ive seen a custom IG female commissar with stripper heels and boobs hanging out, which is pretty damn stupid. I lothe chainmail bikinis and the like. If you do a female model it needs to look like a soldier first, female second. And if you do that to Cadians there is hardly any difference at this scale. Besides in real life men and women in body armor look similier, the face is generally all thats different.
I'll grant the SoB being kind of stripperiffic in a dominatrix kind of way (and the fluff sorta supports that) - but what about Tau, Eldar, and Dark Eldar? The only real differentiation on those models is the inclusion of tits.
That's where your argument kind of falls apart - 2/3rds of the armies that include "obvious" females (that aren't sisters of battle) show them wearing the same things as the males, and the Tau have no outward gender differences to begin with.
I, and a lot of women I know who are into fantasy, absolutely adore chainmail bikinis. Partially because of the hilarity that stems from a long, long history of playing D&D, but mostly because that's what's there. We've even gone above and beyond, trying to explain just how chainmail bikinis are as protective as full plate armor (best explanation yet: it's magnetized, so metal weapons are just forced to hit the protected areas).
The problem with current wave (what is this now, third? fourth wave?) feminists is that they aren't true feminists at all. The original goal of the feminist movement was to promote equality between the sexes - get women treated just the same as men - and part of the deal is that you're not allowed to have double standards. You can't want to be treated like a guy, but then scream sexual harrassment when your boss or coworker compliments you on your hairstyle or choice of clothes, and you can't ask to be treated like a guy, then kvetch that "chivalry is dead" when a guy won't open doors for you or pull out your chair at the table - and especially when it comes time to pay for dinner.
(*@#&%(@*#&% WHAT THE HELL IS IT ABOUT THIS THREAD THAT KEEPS PUSHING MY BERSERK BUTTONS!?
/endrant. Anyone who's interested in my views on feminism, feel free to PM me. Open-mindedly, of course.
Sorry if I didnt make it clear, I was only talking about the Imperial Guard.
Don't worry OBC, I think Chesh was having a rant about his own little thing.
That's the nature of berserk buttons. Once pressed, It Gets Personal for some reason. I have quite a few minor berserk buttons, but nothing major that sends me into total frothing-at-the-mouth RAAAAAAWR maniac berserker mode.
kronk wrote:Considering orks grow from fungus and not breeding, there's no need for male or female "parts", are there?
I've seen some IG "female" bits in the form of some catachan models from GW and some 3rd party bits. Dark Eldar have female characters and several troop bits.
I would bet money that the next Cadian set would have them. Not sure why the current set doesn't.
Awesome! I appreciate that there are some female troops and bits available to mod with, however your first statement does make a lot of sense as far as the orkz go. My only complaint is that they are distinctly labeled as "boyz" which thusly engenders them. My other line of thinking is that being plant life and having that as the explanation, could they be a bit more androgynous? They are clearly males, so maybe that extra fungus downstairs could migrate North a half inch or so?
Welcome to Dakka!
As far as female orks go, I don't see why you can't just call your Boyz "Girlz" and paint them appropriately. Being orks, they'd still be masculine/beefy I suppose. With all of their gear and loose clothing, you might not see that much cleavage or other signs of being female. I've been doing some searches for female ork heads for 28mm models, but have come up empty so far. I did find an interesting "conversion" ork head in the Dakka Gallery. It took two top-knots and turned them into pig tails. However, you'll need to ignore the unrealistic "cans" this ork is sporting. Clearly, her mad doc is not skilled at implants...
Spoiler:
Of course there are females that play 40k, in addtion to RPGs, other table top games, and so on. By some of the comments I'm reading here, I can see that many guys haven't been exposed to it that often, which is very sad. One of my Pathfinder groups has 3 females (including my girlfriend) and 4 males, plus the GM. The ladies play a monk, a bard, and a ranger, so that's two fighter types and a mage/theif type (and they kick ass).
Sadly, none of them are interested in Warhammer 40k, but one in particular has been influencing my modeling because of her love of Pirates. So, I've bought some pirate ork heads for a unit of Nobs and a Warboss that I'm going to deck out as free booters.
Anyway, don't let the lack of female bits discourage you. Make your army your own. With some imagination, some conversion work, and a little green stuff, you can have your Ork Girls rolling in no time!
kronk wrote:Of course there are females that play 40k, in addtion to RPGs, other table top games, and so on. By some of the comments I'm reading here, I can see that many guys haven't been exposed to it that often, which is very sad. One of my Pathfinder groups has 3 females (including my girlfriend) and 4 males, plus the GM. The ladies play a monk, a bard, and a ranger, so that's two fighter types and a mage/theif type (and they kick ass).
I actually know more girls who play D&D than guys, so you're definitely not alone on that one haha
There's a difference between D&D and 40k though. D&D doesn't require nearly the amount of time and effort as 40k does, let alone the rather prohibitive cost involved.
Also, roleplaying is more attractive to women than plastic toy soldiers.
And yes, I play both tabletop RPGs and 40k. I've seen plenty of female RPGers, but in the almost 20 years I've been playing 40k, I've only seen 5 women in my groups or FLGSs - and 3 of those were of the "look at me, I has tittehs!" attentionwhore types. The other 2 were married to guys that played and were more interested in getting some husband time than actually playing the game.
Jonny_Awesome wrote:"Where are all the chicks?", my wife asks me. Being a trophy geek-wife, she is excited about video games, comics, collectibles, and other geek pursuits. And now that I am getting into 40k she is also taking a closer look. I suggested that the Orks seems to be more her play style and approach, which she was expectantly apprehensive of at first, but reluctantly accepted. But as she looked over the models, she makes the previous assessment. So, I look through all the various armies and find Sisters of Battle (flamethrower, melta chicks with power armor and jet packs? hell yeah!) and... well, nothing else really in specific. Sure, there are Eldar and some daemon. But other than that, the absurd amount of people fighting in space decided to leave their ladies at home it seems. To appease her I offered to help make tiny little pairs of ta-ta's for each and every ork in her army.
But that doesn't really solve the issue here. Of course, this is all merely based on my own personal experiences, but I have found that there are in fact quite a few girls who are not afraid to let their geek flag fly, and would rather see some strong female characters representing them on the field of battle. Hell, my other friends who are guys would like more female models simply to gawk at lecherously.
SO LET'S SEE 'EM! BRING ON THE LADIES!!
Ideas, thoughts, opinions?
the hobby is vagina repellent. chicks practically walk faster past the store to avoid seeing anything or hearing any of the conversations.
Lmao i just imagined a girl walking across the mall then seeing a gw store then running really fast whispering "chet chet chet" haha
On topic, I have seen females in my FLGS but they are the cashiers haha. Model-wise I had my first w40k purchase which was an eldar guardian squad (the 18 guys with no support thing) and being 4th ed, there were some female torsos in them
TheSinheizer wrote:
The only time a diamond would be my best friend, might be if my boyfriend were to propose to me by hiding the ring inside a drop pod.
Quoted for being an epic idea.
As for the original question: who makes the game? That may answers a lot of questions. Gamers make a game to attract other gamers, that shares something with them. As a side-note, the GW board is all male (http://investor.games-workshop.com/the-board-of-directors/).
I know a lot of female gamers, but the only interest they expressed in 40k was the artistic part of it (painting / modeling). Too much logistics I guess.
I do not know who said that anyone should not be intimidated by another being flaws (namely poor social skills), but I could not agree more. If someone cannot act in an acceptable way in a specific situation (say, a girl in a gaming store), maybe it is the someone's fault, and not the situation's.
(Off topic - damn I miss arguing in english, all my skills are going down the drain!!!)
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote: Ive seen a custom IG female commissar with stripper heels and boobs hanging out
\Ever saw a female commisar that didnt?
There even was one like that in the WD recently. Okay, without the boobs.
But yes, I agree with you that they should be focused firstly soldier, then woman.
TheSinheizer wrote:
Currently Chaos Daemons and Dark Eldar, though after the Space Marine game and the Ultramarines movie, I am actually very slowly coming around to wanting my very own SPESS MERHENS... I never thought it possible.
What Chaos God do you prefer and are there any models that you would recommend?
In particular, what Deldar models?
I, too, play Chaos Daemons, and am looking forward to getting a Dark Eldar army "at some point". I wonder if it's a girl thing for those two armies? Probably a coincidence.
I like a mix of Slaanesh and Tzeentch, fast melee troops and some ranged support. Throw in maybe a unit of Flesh Hounds or Bloodletters if you need them. On the other hand, I convert my entire army to an entirely different Chaos God from one of the ancient WFRP splats (Obscuras), so the models aren't really standard for anything. The only non-converted models are probably me ten Diaz Seekers, which I adore. They are probably my favourite models from GW ever, they just look so fast and sleek, sexy but also somehow alien and dangerous. I also have Dryad heads on my "Horrors". Oh, and the Forgeworld Keeper of Slaanesh, who is a girl and much bigger/better than the GW one. And I'm building a Daemon Prince based on Sersi's excellent female Daemon Prince (Slaanesh) torso from his sculpts.
Now I think about it, there are rather a lot of "ta-ta's" in my army, at least on the Slaanesh side of things.
Dark Eldar wise, I love the Scourges. Again, deadly, fast, sleek, very dynamic poses. Love the feathered wings more than the bat, simply because it's a lot easier to pull off a good feathered wing colour scheme (in my opinion). The Wyches are.. okay.. but I think they look a bit silly. The entire Dark Eldar range are excellent models, but I think I prefer the "Kabalite" types, the Warriors are solid sculpts, the Mandrakes are also awesomeness.
As for the girl/awkwardness thing, it's come up a bit once or twice, but nothing major. I've certainly never been stared at as the entire shop goes silent.
Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:so great how few people actually read the OP...
right? to be frank, i've just been sitting back and enjoying the show. XD
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WolfBrother916 wrote:
juraigamer wrote:
Testify wrote:Girls who ARE into 40k stay away from the GW shops because they're full of neckbeards who'll stare at them.
Exactly. I am disgusted every time the store gets quiet when a female walks in. It's like these damn kids have never seen one.
I think its funny as hell... at that moment you need to try and push a fart out.. just make it alittle more awkward for everyone in there
My wife and I cracked up and then she tells me that she wants that to be her entrance when she debuts her army. only it will be she who farts and then saunters over to the nearest table and starts unloading neon pink orks. with a huge smile she would ask anyone nearby "so, who wants to pla-ay?" in a sing song voice.
Soccerlfb6 wrote:...all girls want is money...u spend a ton on this hobby...itll piss em off and c it as a waste...end of story ur money goes to them not models..
Im sitting in law lecture, and trying so hard not to laugh out loud at this. Not only because its funny, but in a lot of ways true.
They would have great bragging rights. Necrodermis tatas would never ah... suffer from gravity. Firm and tight, for all eternity. Not to mention how easy it would be to maintain their girlish figure. I mean, the posture could probably use some work, but just ship them off to a finishing tomb world. Once they can walk about balancing a stack of scarabs on their head while firing, they'll be good to go!
And even better for the flayed ones! They'd really know how to accessorize.
They would have great bragging rights. Necrodermis tatas would never ah... suffer from gravity. Firm and tight, for all eternity. Not to mention how easy it would be to maintain their girlish figure. I mean, the posture could probably use some work, but just ship them off to a finishing tomb world. Once they can walk about balancing a stack of scarabs on their head while firing, they'll be good to go!
And even better for the flayed ones! They'd really know how to accessorize.
Chesh wrote:Aaaaaaaaaand, we're right back to why more women don't play 40k.
Time spent away from "society at large" leads to a lack of social skills, which leads to awkward conversation, which leads to more time spent away from "society at large". It's a big downward spiral from there - or a small one, depending.
I think you've switched cause and effect. Because the tabletop game genre in general doesn't like to ostracize, we tend to gather and interest people who have been socially ostracized, for whatever reason. Poor socialization and hygiene will be overlooked so long as the individual can play the game. And a poor attitude towards nonwhite nonmales is often present.
When was the last time you said "You're a jerk, I won't play you"?
I think it doesn't help that GW believes they cannot expand into the women's demographic. So if they might as well make boy eyecandy because they have given up on getting women into the hobby. The company will be slow to change this attitude, especially since there are no women who work for GW in any creative capacity.
Mordiggian wrote:When was the last time you said "You're a jerk, I won't play you"?
Last Saturday actually, at my FLGS when TFG showed up.
Mordiggian wrote:I think you've switched cause and effect.
The fun thing about downward spirals or catch .22s is that attributing a specific cause is like trying to figure out whether the chicken or the egg came first.
Also, since when did the tabletop game genre "not like to ostracize"? Just like any other society or subculture we have our cliques and one of our absolute favorite things is to ostracize and prejudge people. Here are some common themes:
"Oh, another GK player. WAAC much?"
"Oh look, it's TFG"
etc...
Poor socialization isn't overlooked. How often have you found it pleasant to play with someone who's so poorly socialized they don't even display normal emotions? Or the person who doesn't understand that they've taken a joke "too far" or "run it into the ground"? How about the "pleasure" of playing a game against an opponent whose secret weapon is the waft of stench that floats across the table every now and then that distracts you from what you're doing?
If anything, tabletop wargamers are even MORE cliquish and prone to harsh judgments and ostracization (that's not a word, I'm fairly sure, but it should be), thanks to our status among the geek community as the geeks that other geeks make fun of.
I think it doesn't help that GW believes they cannot expand into the women's demographic. So if they might as well make boy eyecandy because they have given up on getting women into the hobby.
Sanguine Guard? Twilight in space? sculpted abs and nipples, spend all day they dont battle painting/persuing the arts if i remember rightly?
I think it doesn't help that GW believes they cannot expand into the women's demographic. So if they might as well make boy eyecandy because they have given up on getting women into the hobby.
Sanguine Guard? Twilight in space? sculpted abs and nipples, spend all day they dont battle painting/persuing the arts if i remember rightly?
Blood Angels are heavily influenced on the armor and style of the the Italian Renaissance, and have been that way since before Twlight came out.
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Chesh wrote:
Mordiggian wrote:When was the last time you said "You're a jerk, I won't play you"?
Last Saturday actually, at my FLGS when TFG showed up.
Mordiggian wrote:I think you've switched cause and effect.
The fun thing about downward spirals or catch .22s is that attributing a specific cause is like trying to figure out whether the chicken or the egg came first.
Also, since when did the tabletop game genre "not like to ostracize"? Just like any other society or subculture we have our cliques and one of our absolute favorite things is to ostracize and prejudge people. Here are some common themes:
"Oh, another GK player. WAAC much?"
"Oh look, it's TFG"
etc...
Poor socialization isn't overlooked. How often have you found it pleasant to play with someone who's so poorly socialized they don't even display normal emotions? Or the person who doesn't understand that they've taken a joke "too far" or "run it into the ground"? How about the "pleasure" of playing a game against an opponent whose secret weapon is the waft of stench that floats across the table every now and then that distracts you from what you're doing?
If anything, tabletop wargamers are even MORE cliquish and prone to harsh judgments and ostracization (that's not a word, I'm fairly sure, but it should be), thanks to our status among the geek community as the geeks that other geeks make fun of.
All these jokes are intergroup bonding and establishment of pecking order. They are socialization and indicators of acceptance, not ostracization. When was the last time you actively discouraged someone from coming to the table? Told them that they were not welcome to play? All those peolle you mention don't appear with fully-painted armies, play once, and then vanish. They come again and again and other players will overlook their behavior. When was the last time you told someone that they needed a shower? That they were an asshat for taking the joke too far? Have you not played people because they're socially maladjusted? How is it that these people, have gotten the idea that the behavior is OK, and that they can play Warhammer despite the fact that they are socially awkward? The game doesn't do it. They start out that way, and as a group, gamers do not know how to tell people to modify their behavior.
On a complete tabgent to this thread, I went to a friendly tournamenty type thing and a woman whom played SW turned up and had to fight GK. The bloke was doing the usual bragging and condecending talk and such like and I was on the table next to her. She wiped the floor with him. tabled on turn 3. It was literally eye-watering. Guy was almost crying. 'tis always good to see the supposed inferiors beat the gak out of those who get too uppity for their own good
The more i read post on dakka the more i become convinced I hit the jackpot on FLGS, the vast horde of kids that play are not there, in fact Im the youngest at 22. We all have good hygeine. And most are married so theyre not socially awkward. Its a pretty good crowd. Real friendly.
Now we do share the store with those card players. The MTG crowd is cool, but every saturday from noon to 6 the yu gi oh players overrun the place.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:
Now we do share the store with those card players. The MTG crowd is cool, but every saturday from noon to 6 the yu gi oh players overrun the place.
Exactly the same at the FLGS I frequented a while ago. Bloody crazy kids.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:
Now we do share the store with those card players. The MTG crowd is cool, but every saturday from noon to 6 the yu gi oh players overrun the place.
Exactly the same at the FLGS I frequented a while ago. Bloody crazy kids.
Yeah, luckly Thursday is the "official" 40k night, but if you want a game on saturday be prepared to shout across the table.
I tried Fantasy but I find the extra phase, the random spell fice and the lack of differentiation between a vehicle like a steam tank and an infantryman's characteristics, along with other things, too much to take in duribg a 12 minute demo vame.
While I am happy to see that plenty of us know girls who play, let's try not to keep a tally sheet going. I think it seems creepier than it does supportive
TedNugent wrote:
Women who actually kick ass are stinky, husky, and crass, and they have big biceps and square jaws.
Seriously?
Not one of those women could beat an equally skilled man in the same devision as themselves. The man will have much greater muscle density, quicker reflexes and stronger bones. If this hurts your feelings, suck it up and go take an anatomy class, followed by grade school biology. If it still hurts your feelings after that, go join a hippy feminist commune, because you just arent cut out for reality.
This is the single most frustrating fact of the feminist movement. The blatent refusal to acknowledge the basic biological design of the sexes. Men are ALWAYS, going to be physically superior to women. Women will ALWAYS be physically inferior to men. Women are genetically designed to help make babies, feed the growing babies, and raise the child. Men are genetically designed to hunt, fight, kill, burn, maim et al. All in the interest of providing for the female and children as they grow, and protect them from physical harm if possible thus continuing and furthering the species. (please note, this is not an assertion that "women belong in the kitchen, makin me a sangwich, while being pregnant and barefoot)
Now how this applies to this thread. There is no reason why women, attractive women cannot compete in the games of war. ESPECIALLY in the 41st millenium where bionics, power suits, and physical manifestations of ones stead fast faith are concerned. Ooooh that brings up a nasty thought......
Female Ogryn..... death by snusnu anyone?
thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:Not one of those women could beat an equally skilled man in the same devision as themselves. The man will have much greater muscle density, quicker reflexes and stronger bones. If this hurts your feelings, suck it up and go take an anatomy class, followed by grade school biology. If it still hurts your feelings after that, go join a hippy feminist commune, because you just arent cut out for reality.
This is the single most frustrating fact of the feminist movement. The blatent refusal to acknowledge the basic biological design of the sexes. Men are ALWAYS, going to be physically superior to women. Women will ALWAYS be physically inferior to men. Women are genetically designed to help make babies, feed the growing babies, and raise the child. Men are genetically designed to hunt, fight, kill, burn, maim et al. All in the interest of providing for the female and children as they grow, and protect them from physical harm if possible thus continuing and furthering the species.
Though I would be willing to bet these women could beat the crap out of you, and most of your male friends...
thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:Not one of those women could beat an equally skilled man in the same devision as themselves. The man will have much greater muscle density, quicker reflexes and stronger bones. If this hurts your feelings, suck it up and go take an anatomy class, followed by grade school biology. If it still hurts your feelings after that, go join a hippy feminist commune, because you just arent cut out for reality.
This is the single most frustrating fact of the feminist movement. The blatent refusal to acknowledge the basic biological design of the sexes. Men are ALWAYS, going to be physically superior to women. Women will ALWAYS be physically inferior to men. Women are genetically designed to help make babies, feed the growing babies, and raise the child. Men are genetically designed to hunt, fight, kill, burn, maim et al. All in the interest of providing for the female and children as they grow, and protect them from physical harm if possible thus continuing and furthering the species.
Though I would be willing to bet these women could beat the crap out of you, and most of your male friends...
And I would be the first to cry like a little 6 year old girl if I made one of those lovely women mad XD!!! Hell hath no fury like an MMA champion scorned hahah
But my point still stands, and I simply felt like airing out my frustrations with the "im every woman," "We are strong" liberal feminatzi movement. And the line of tripe they force upon culture as a whole. And here is why, for those of you who want a little personal story.
I was lucky enough to have a mother who stayed at home and raised me and my two sisters. And to sit and watch the nasty self righteous whitches denigrate my mother as a "backwards regretionist" loser to lazy and or stupid to work like "real women" should, makes me want to puke.
thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:[But my point still stands, and I simply felt like airing out my frustrations with the "im every woman," "We are strong" liberal feminatzi movement. And the line of tripe they force upon culture as a whole. And here is why, for those of you who want a little personal story.
I was lucky enough to have a mother who stayed at home and raised me and my two sisters. And to sit and watch the nasty self righteous whitches denigrate my mother as a "backwards regretionist" loser to lazy and or stupid to work like "real women" should, makes me want to puke.
There are fringe nutters in every group. The entire point of feminism is equality; in society, employment, rights, etc, not that women should become a CEO at the age of 25, make her first trillion at the age of 26, fund genetic research to "cure the male problem" by age 28, and then rule over a world without men at the age of 30
There are certain physiological differences between men and women, but the difference between average people of different sexes is essentially meaningless in modern society. Dump them into the jungle and most men and women from middle America would be dead within a week, regardless of how "genetically superior their gender is when it comes to hunting", or whatever tired trope it is that you want to wheel out to "demonstrate" that one sex is better than the other. In the grand scheme of things, there is no difference between men and women.
thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:Not one of those women could beat an equally skilled man in the same devision as themselves. The man will have much greater muscle density, quicker reflexes and stronger bones. If this hurts your feelings, suck it up and go take an anatomy class, followed by grade school biology. If it still hurts your feelings after that, go join a hippy feminist commune, because you just arent cut out for reality.
I and my Master's degree in Biomedical Engineering must beg to differ.
The physical differences between men and women are infintessimally small. Our bodies physically respond to the stresses we put on them, that's why our muscles gain strength by repeatedly moving heavy weights. The main physical difference between a man and woman is where the center of gravity is on the body - a woman's center of gravity is lower than a man's, relative to their body size. Oh, and women tend to be shorter. Structurally, the reproductive organs differ, as well as the pelvic girdle.
If you'd like, you can borrow some of my textbooks on Anatomy & Physiology, or perhaps one of the ones I've got floating around on Kinesiology. You might find them enlightening, to say the least.
I will tell you this, though - there are differences between most men and women. The potential differences are what I listed, whereas the actual differences are put down to what stresses we put on our bodies during the bout of rapid growth we all experience known as "puberty". Our bodies morph and shift over time based on the stresses we put on them - that's why you can look at a dancer and say "he or she is a dancer" or a runner and say "he or she is a runner". Puberty is when our bodies are programmed to shift rapidly, and that means that what we do during puberty (for the most part) defines what our bodies adapt to handle - dancers have muscular legs with strong bones and high upper body strength along with a high concentration of red, or "slow twitch" muscle fibers compared to the "fast twitch" muscles (showing endurance). Runners tend to be lean due to a higher proportion of fast vs slow muscle fibers - fast fibers are leaner than slow, which gives the runner a lean, lanky look. As far as bone remodeling is concerned, look to sports that force people into "unnatural" positions, such as the middle-ages English Longbowmen, who were so massively broad in the upper body (due to stresses causing bone remodeling to handle the draw of a 150 pound draw longbow), or even today with weightlifters and barrel chests with broad shoulders, or horseback riders with wide hips and bowed legs.
To make a long story short: what a person does during puberty is the main influence on how their bodies grow, which is the sole explanation for your "men and women are different!" frothing rant. Since most women don't spend their formative years doing "masculine" activities, they're not as equipped as adults to handle doing those masculine activities. That's the reason for the difference, not any sort of biological or anatomical "genetic differences".
Chesh wrote:I and my Master's degree in Biomedical Engineering must beg to differ.
I've got one of those!
In fact, I am currently back at university getting my second Masters degree in Biomedical Engineering (my first was a Master of Engineering, this one is a Master of Science ).
Chesh wrote:I and my Master's degree in Biomedical Engineering must beg to differ.
I've got one of those!
In fact, I am currently back at university getting my second Masters degree in Biomedical Engineering (my first was a Master of Engineering, this one is a Master of Science ).
Nice! I got my bachelor's in it (was planning on going to med school to begin with, but changed my mind), then decided to go for my Master's purely because they were offering a graduate level cadaver lab.
I changed my mind on med school because I decided what specialty I wanted to go into right after taking my MCAT (I got a 37 on it, ), and it doesn't require an MD - I'm going to eventually go for my MSN in Nurse Anesthetist. Same pay as an anesthesiologist, less bother with malpractice insurance and kvetchy patients. Same total time invested, though, which does suck. C'est la vie! I'm already qualified as a flight paramedic, now once I graduate in May (and pass my NCLEX) I'll be upgraded to flight RN.
Chesh wrote:
The physical differences between men and women are infintessimally small. Our bodies physically respond to the stresses we put on them, that's why our muscles gain strength by repeatedly moving heavy weights. The main physical difference between a man and woman is where the center of gravity is on the body - a woman's center of gravity is lower than a man's, relative to their body size. Oh, and women tend to be shorter. Structurally, the reproductive organs differ, as well as the pelvic girdle.
Infinitessimally as in 10% average sexual dimorphism; same as chimpanzees. Many animals have some form of sexual dimorphism, often favoring the females, and in some cases, for instance some species of spiders and notably the Angler fish, by orders of magnitude.
Your muscles do not gain strength by repeatedly moving heavy weights, the immediate response to that is that your muscle becomes damaged, your body responds to the pressure by allocating more resources to the process of building stronger muscles. There is not an immediate causal effect between lifting things and getting stronger. If you keep running a treadmill you will collapse if you do not get proper nutrition and rest.
And in spite of that effect on muscle growth, you cannot seriously deny as a "biomedical engineer" that hormones have an effect on muscle growth. Ever heard of steroids?
You also cannot ignore the fact that the upper bound for powerlifters is absolutely in favor of men, by a considerable margin, as well as the average strength of men compared to women, suggesting that gender does in fact play a significant role in muscle development, as well as hormone therapy, as the observable effects of steroids would demonstrate.
Chesh wrote:Nice! I got my bachelor's in it (was planning on going to med school to begin with, but changed my mind), then decided to go for my Master's purely because they were offering a graduate level cadaver lab.
I changed my mind on med school because I decided what specialty I wanted to go into right after taking my MCAT (I got a 37 on it, ), and it doesn't require an MD - I'm going to eventually go for my MSN in Nurse Anesthetist. Same pay as an anesthesiologist, less bother with malpractice insurance and kvetchy patients. Same total time invested, though, which does suck. C'est la vie! I'm already qualified as a flight paramedic, now once I graduate in May (and pass my NCLEX) I'll be upgraded to flight RN.
Cool beans - best of luck getting in to what you want to do
There are some old female metal models, and some produced by other companies, but I have no idea why there are no imperial female models outside of the SoB.
I guess since the women in the Guard are uncommon, since, in 40k, women are for breeding or nunning. And it''s probably easier to produce 10 of the same guardsman torso than making different ones.
Otherwise, aren't races like the Eldar, Dark Eldar, Daemons, etc. have decent amounts of female cannon fodder fighting along side their male cannon fodder counterparts?
SilverMK2 wrote:
There are certain physiological differences between men and women, but the difference between average people of different sexes is essentially meaningless in modern society.
the differences between men and women are quite pronounced, actually. its more than simply one of different hormones/organs.
the entire brain chemistry for one, and "internal wiring" for lack of a better term are completely different between men and women. For example, mens brains are hardwired into recognising movement and location before other things. Womens brains are more desiigned to recognise colours, shapes and designs. In ways, its a throwback to when we lived in caves and lived as hunter gatherers. For example, you'd see the ferrarri zooming by at breakneck speed. what registers primarily in your brain is its speed. a woman (generally) seeing the same scene will register the red ferrari that happens to be moving really fast. mens brains also tend to be more "logical" and "problem solving" in their wiring, while womens brains tend to be more geared towards those emotional consequences. Another interesting difference is how in touch you are with your emotions. With men, that part of our brain is almost an afterthought, whereas in women, its one of the first parts of the brain to be developed in the womb. as a result, while we have a single twisty turny country lane that connects us to our emotions, women have an 8 lane superhighway. So no, its not simply a case of "he was raised not to show emotion. he'sbeing a man. he has to show his tough side". in a lot of ways, we're simply not wired for it to the same extent as women. Its a subject i find to be fascinating. you should look it up if you're interested.
And no, i dont say that in any kind of a bad way. women can be strong and tough. i used to do kickboxing back in the old country, and some of the others who did it were girls. and they were pretty damned good. maybe, in terms of genes and evolution, it came slightly less naturally, but its not like they were incapable of the training - as i said they were pretty damned good at what they were doing.
Men and women think differently, act differently, and through our evolution are designed to work together. both bring different things to the table. its not about 1 sex being superior.
TedNugent wrote:Infinitessimally as in 10% average sexual dimorphism; same as chimpanzees. Many animals have some form of sexual dimorphism, often favoring the females, and in some cases, for instance some species of spiders and notably the Angler fish, by orders of magnitude.
Wikipedia entry on Anglerfish wrote:This extreme sexual dimorphism ensures that, when the female is ready to spawn, she has a mate immediately available.
Explained by the reproductive process in anglerfish, and I already noted the average size difference between men and women.
Your muscles do not gain strength by repeatedly moving heavy weights, the immediate response to that is that your muscle becomes damaged, your body responds to the pressure by allocating more resources to the process of building stronger muscles. There is not an immediate causal effect between lifting things and getting stronger. If you keep running a treadmill you will collapse if you do not get proper nutrition and rest.
No, there isn't a direct causal link between it, but it logically follows. Also, I simplified the process for the sake of not being absolutely and utterly boring (also it would've gone rather beyond the scope of the conversation). If you'd like, I can write you a paper on muscle hypertrophy, or simply just copy/paste one of the ones I've already written. Oh - and by "allocating more resources to the process of building stronger muscles" please PM me exactly how you think hypertrophy works. I'm curious as to where you got that interpretation.
And in spite of that effect on muscle growth, you cannot seriously deny as a "biomedical engineer" that hormones have an effect on muscle growth. Ever heard of steroids?
I don't get what you're saying here. Are you saying that women don't have the same hormones as men do?
You also cannot ignore the fact that the upper bound for powerlifters is absolutely in favor of men, by a considerable margin, as well as the average strength of men compared to women, suggesting that gender does in fact play a significant role in muscle development, as well as hormone therapy, as the observable effects of steroids would demonstrate.
What were the male powerlifters doing when their bodies were in a formative state, compared to what the females were doing? Nothing you've said in this post contradicts anything in my post at all - so I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to get at here?
Here's a hypothetical for you.
Bob and Jane are fraternal twins, and perform the same exact activities at the same exact times during their physical development. Who will be the better powerlifter?
If you answered "Bob", you're wrong. They will both be almost identical in capability as far as physical exertion is concerned. Genetics does play a factor, but not insofar as which twin has a spare X chromosome - physical capability is not a sex-linked genetic trait.
Society plays a far greater role than people attribute to gender dimorphism - let's consider the stereotype, where the male plays baseball and the female plays, for the sake of argument, soccer. Given that they both play for the same amount of time in their respective sports, and at the same level of intensity, the female will show a marked trend toward endurance and lower body strength, and the male will show the opposite, upper body strength and a marked trend toward bursts of speed. In this case, the female would likely be able to outperform the male on exercises such as the leg press, and the male will be faster, but for short periods of time, and probably able to outperform the female on an upper body exercise, let's say the bench press. If both the male and the female continue to play baseball and soccer until their bodies are physically matured, those tendencies will be "set", and even once they give up the sport, the physical changes will remain - the female will always be able to out-distance the male and her lower body will be markedly stronger than the male, while the male will always be able to outsprint the female, and his upper body will be stronger than hers.
I know at least three females who would play 40k if Sisters of Battle were in any fashion affordable. Only one of them cares in the least about their level of playability. GW is doing a serious disservice to themselves by not keeping Sisters current. Honestly they should be aiming to keep them up to date every edition. :head shake:
thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:Not one of those women could beat an equally skilled man in the same devision as themselves. The man will have much greater muscle density, quicker reflexes and stronger bones. If this hurts your feelings, suck it up and go take an anatomy class, followed by grade school biology. If it still hurts your feelings after that, go join a hippy feminist commune, because you just arent cut out for reality.
I and my Master's degree in Biomedical Engineering must beg to differ.
The physical differences between men and women are infintessimally small. Our bodies physically respond to the stresses we put on them, that's why our muscles gain strength by repeatedly moving heavy weights. The main physical difference between a man and woman is where the center of gravity is on the body - a woman's center of gravity is lower than a man's, relative to their body size. Oh, and women tend to be shorter. Structurally, the reproductive organs differ, as well as the pelvic girdle.
If you'd like, you can borrow some of my textbooks on Anatomy & Physiology, or perhaps one of the ones I've got floating around on Kinesiology. You might find them enlightening, to say the least.
I will tell you this, though - there are differences between most men and women. The potential differences are what I listed, whereas the actual differences are put down to what stresses we put on our bodies during the bout of rapid growth we all experience known as "puberty". Our bodies morph and shift over time based on the stresses we put on them - that's why you can look at a dancer and say "he or she is a dancer" or a runner and say "he or she is a runner". Puberty is when our bodies are programmed to shift rapidly, and that means that what we do during puberty (for the most part) defines what our bodies adapt to handle - dancers have muscular legs with strong bones and high upper body strength along with a high concentration of red, or "slow twitch" muscle fibers compared to the "fast twitch" muscles (showing endurance). Runners tend to be lean due to a higher proportion of fast vs slow muscle fibers - fast fibers are leaner than slow, which gives the runner a lean, lanky look. As far as bone remodeling is concerned, look to sports that force people into "unnatural" positions, such as the middle-ages English Longbowmen, who were so massively broad in the upper body (due to stresses causing bone remodeling to handle the draw of a 150 pound draw longbow), or even today with weightlifters and barrel chests with broad shoulders, or horseback riders with wide hips and bowed legs.
To make a long story short: what a person does during puberty is the main influence on how their bodies grow, which is the sole explanation for your "men and women are different!" frothing rant. Since most women don't spend their formative years doing "masculine" activities, they're not as equipped as adults to handle doing those masculine activities. That's the reason for the difference, not any sort of biological or anatomical "genetic differences".
The above poster is actually correct, and at no point does your rant contradict what he's saying. It's shocking that you have a Master's in Biomedical Engineering yet still don't understand the dramatic differences that hormones can make on a body. It has little or nothing to do with what people do during puberty. Like it or not, testosterone puts more muscle on men, for less effort. It just does. I'm sorry.
The difference between men and women can be illustrated on the battlefield. A man can lift his wounded comrade up on his shoulders and get him to safety, where a woman, having done all the same exercises for the same amount of time, over the same period of months, as well as had the same combat training, still cannot lift the wounded man over her shoulders in the same situation. It's not good or bad, it's not right or wrong, just or unjust, sexist or fair. It's simply the way it is.
Women produce testosterone as well. Not as much naturally as men do, granted, but it can be raised - by doing (surprisingly enough) the same thing that men do to release testosterone.
Exercise strenuously and regularly - sorry, pilates don't count
Eat higher protein diets
Have a healthy sex life
Take a multivitamin containing B-complex vitamins, vitamin C and zinc
Ginseng supplements (one of the most common ingredients in "energy shots")
Eat a lot of Omega-3 and omega-6 fatty acids (fish, flaxseed oil, and a bunch of other sources)
etc, etc.
I know very well the effect that hormones have on the body, as well as what glands produce them (for reference: adrenal glands and gonads - testes in men and ovaries in women) and what their specific purpose is in the body.
I currently work on an air ambulance crew with a 56 year old woman who can put a 220 pound man in a fireman's carry, and I also drove Abrams tanks in the Army, where I saw female tank mechanics lift and carry more than the men in my tank crew could or would lift and carry, including 2-person lifting 550 pound side skirt armor plates. Your anecdotal evidence doesn't match up with mine, so I'm sorry but I'm going to go with the science here.
Our body types are determined mainly by what we do during our physical formative years. This is where the perceived "disadvantage" comes from for women, and it continues throughout their lives due to social conditioning.
To put it more simply: hormones are produced by glands in our bodies and released when our bodies require them. Men and women both have the same exact hormones floating around in our bodies - women have testosterone, and men have estrogen - only the ratio differs, and that's not set in stone.
Edit to add: I'm done with this tangent. I just realized how utterly ridiculous it's gotten with the basic claim that "Women can't be as strong as men because they don't have testosterone" having been made. That one kinda knocked me for a loop for a minute, actually.
Chesh wrote:Women produce testosterone as well. Not as much naturally as men do, granted, but it can be raised - by doing (surprisingly enough) the same thing that men do to release testosterone.
Exercise strenuously and regularly - sorry, pilates don't count
Eat higher protein diets
Have a healthy sex life
Take a multivitamin containing B-complex vitamins, vitamin C and zinc
Ginseng supplements (one of the most common ingredients in "energy shots")
Eat a lot of Omega-3 and omega-6 fatty acids (fish, flaxseed oil, and a bunch of other sources)
etc, etc.
Yes, its possable for women to induce extra testosterone production, however it is just not natural for the female body to do that. Men will also have a much higher potential for muscle mass and testosterone production so if a women can induce testosterone production, so can a guy. So the "women can just force their bodies to make more testosterone" is bunk because guys can do it too.
It is essentially stimulating the female body to do something it is not adapted to do. Just how a contortionist conditions his/her body to be abnormally flexable, it is simply not the natural state of the human body to bend so extremely but it can be forced to do it.
By a regiment of specilized diet and excercise a women can build up higher testosterone levels, however a man doing the same things will have more muscle mass and be stronger.
This is assuming both the man and women are both average specimens, in peak health, and of similer age.
There is no argument that a women can have more muscle then a man, however this would be comparing a below average man with an above average women. Not a proper comparason.
We would have to do a study of say 30 men and 30 women, all similer ages and with similer states of physical fitness and health. No diseases or abnormal conditions. The men and women would also all have to be close to average height and build for their sex.
We then put them all on identical diets and exercise routines. We would have to do this for at least a year, probably 5 just to be safe.
I'm no expert in this subject but I am pretty darn confidant that the men would definitly be stronger overall then the women.
Incorrect. Marines are never stated to be unable to have intercourse.
Certaintly they would be infertile and their libido will be nonexistant(Space Wolves and Slannesh not withstanding)
So a Marine is fully capable of having sex, there just won't be any kiddos as a result and it would take some reversal of the indoctrination to allow them to have a sex drive.
Wow this topic went all over the place... bio Engineering, Space Marines having no sex drive etc.....
There are no "chicks" in this game simply because most "chicks" dont see the black T-shirt wearing, Long haired, oily skinned Nerd as a hot Date.
And with that said.... the real secret is to get them when they are young and naive. Then once your both comfortable with each other you open the door to the basement that has been locked for the last 3 years and show her your Collection of $15 000 of plastic toy soldiers... She has to much invested to dump you because your infatuated with plastic men. Which in the long run is healtheir that being infatuated with plastic women =]
@Kitsune and her hubby: There is Hope for this game yet. My FLGS is owned by a woman who plays, and there are 2 other serious female players who participate in our monthly league games.
I find all this talk about muscular differences (or not) between the gender very fascinating, but it got me wondering.
In the world of professional athletics, where the genders go through the exact same practice routines based around their discipline, why do men then always perform better if there are not any differences the genders in between?
Men run faster, throw further and jump higher than women and I cannot believe this is "merely" due to differences in upbringing during puberty.
Especially during the cold war, where East and West waged their war in all conceivable areas and you had these very young athletes whose lives consisted only of training and steroids from a very young age and still there was a noticeable difference in performance between the sexes.
That being said I wouldn’t mind if more women joined the hobby. Here in Japan I still haven’t seen women play but I have met several who paint figures. They appear to be treated in equal terms as anyone else in the stores it seems. Here it seems the average age of the players might be a little bit higher than elsewhere in the world. Alas I fear few of them are married.
I would actually like to see some more female figures in the game, though more realistically sculptured instead of something from out of the teenage boys’ wet dreams. I actually rejoiced over the female lieutenant in the Space Marine computer game. More of that please!
And please excuse my English, it isn’t my first language.
TedNugent wrote:Infinitessimally as in 10% average sexual dimorphism; same as chimpanzees. Many animals have some form of sexual dimorphism, often favoring the females, and in some cases, for instance some species of spiders and notably the Angler fish, by orders of magnitude.
Wikipedia entry on Anglerfish wrote:This extreme sexual dimorphism ensures that, when the female is ready to spawn, she has a mate immediately available.
Explained by the reproductive process in anglerfish, and I already noted the average size difference between men and women.
Your muscles do not gain strength by repeatedly moving heavy weights, the immediate response to that is that your muscle becomes damaged, your body responds to the pressure by allocating more resources to the process of building stronger muscles. There is not an immediate causal effect between lifting things and getting stronger. If you keep running a treadmill you will collapse if you do not get proper nutrition and rest.
No, there isn't a direct causal link between it, but it logically follows. Also, I simplified the process for the sake of not being absolutely and utterly boring (also it would've gone rather beyond the scope of the conversation). If you'd like, I can write you a paper on muscle hypertrophy, or simply just copy/paste one of the ones I've already written. Oh - and by "allocating more resources to the process of building stronger muscles" please PM me exactly how you think hypertrophy works. I'm curious as to where you got that interpretation.
And in spite of that effect on muscle growth, you cannot seriously deny as a "biomedical engineer" that hormones have an effect on muscle growth. Ever heard of steroids?
I don't get what you're saying here. Are you saying that women don't have the same hormones as men do?
You also cannot ignore the fact that the upper bound for powerlifters is absolutely in favor of men, by a considerable margin, as well as the average strength of men compared to women, suggesting that gender does in fact play a significant role in muscle development, as well as hormone therapy, as the observable effects of steroids would demonstrate.
What were the male powerlifters doing when their bodies were in a formative state, compared to what the females were doing? Nothing you've said in this post contradicts anything in my post at all - so I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to get at here?
Here's a hypothetical for you.
Bob and Jane are fraternal twins, and perform the same exact activities at the same exact times during their physical development. Who will be the better powerlifter?
If you answered "Bob", you're wrong. They will both be almost identical in capability as far as physical exertion is concerned. Genetics does play a factor, but not insofar as which twin has a spare X chromosome - physical capability is not a sex-linked genetic trait.
Society plays a far greater role than people attribute to gender dimorphism ....
Is what I'm saying making more sense now?
Kind of, except that it doesn't explain why male powerlifters still have higher weight totals than female powerlifters. (And also lift more per pound)
I think gamers are too serious about their hobbies to really be successful with women. Not only in the 'this game is my life' sense, but in the 'everything i do for fun i obsess over' way. Lets face it, you can play call of duty without a whole lot of effort. But playing warhammer is a very time consuming hobby, and only people seriously dedicated will put that time in. This kind of mentality generally translates into other aspects of life, and can result in a few things. Having stupid high standards, and your stereotypical poor social skills/hygiene sometimes occur, but I dont think those are worth discussing.
Being overbearing and clingy is probably the biggest issue to dating that I have seen. As well as a general lack of confidence. I dont want to say that the biggest thing nerds can do to be good around women is to not be nerds, because thats not true. Women love nerds. Its to not only be nerds. Girls dont mind a guy who plays games and has a hobby, but if thats all he does, it becomes a problem.
thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:Not one of those women could beat an equally skilled man in the same devision as themselves. The man will have much greater muscle density, quicker reflexes and stronger bones. If this hurts your feelings, suck it up and go take an anatomy class, followed by grade school biology. If it still hurts your feelings after that, go join a hippy feminist commune, because you just arent cut out for reality.
I and my Master's degree in Biomedical Engineering must beg to differ.
The physical differences between men and women are infintessimally small. Our bodies physically respond to the stresses we put on them, that's why our muscles gain strength by repeatedly moving heavy weights. The main physical difference between a man and woman is where the center of gravity is on the body - a woman's center of gravity is lower than a man's, relative to their body size. Oh, and women tend to be shorter. Structurally, the reproductive organs differ, as well as the pelvic girdle.
If you'd like, you can borrow some of my textbooks on Anatomy & Physiology, or perhaps one of the ones I've got floating around on Kinesiology. You might find them enlightening, to say the least.
I will tell you this, though - there are differences between most men and women. The potential differences are what I listed, whereas the actual differences are put down to what stresses we put on our bodies during the bout of rapid growth we all experience known as "puberty". Our bodies morph and shift over time based on the stresses we put on them - that's why you can look at a dancer and say "he or she is a dancer" or a runner and say "he or she is a runner". Puberty is when our bodies are programmed to shift rapidly, and that means that what we do during puberty (for the most part) defines what our bodies adapt to handle - dancers have muscular legs with strong bones and high upper body strength along with a high concentration of red, or "slow twitch" muscle fibers compared to the "fast twitch" muscles (showing endurance). Runners tend to be lean due to a higher proportion of fast vs slow muscle fibers - fast fibers are leaner than slow, which gives the runner a lean, lanky look. As far as bone remodeling is concerned, look to sports that force people into "unnatural" positions, such as the middle-ages English Longbowmen, who were so massively broad in the upper body (due to stresses causing bone remodeling to handle the draw of a 150 pound draw longbow), or even today with weightlifters and barrel chests with broad shoulders, or horseback riders with wide hips and bowed legs.
To make a long story short: what a person does during puberty is the main influence on how their bodies grow, which is the sole explanation for your "men and women are different!" frothing rant. Since most women don't spend their formative years doing "masculine" activities, they're not as equipped as adults to handle doing those masculine activities. That's the reason for the difference, not any sort of biological or anatomical "genetic differences".
Let me get this straight, you are saying that therer are no noticable difference between men and women when it comes to physical apperence, muscle strength ect and that the only thing that really matters what kind of training ect they did during puberty? Where did you attend uni if I might ask? Can you please explain why every world record in every sport where muscles are involved are held by a man? Is it because women are lazy and dont excersise as much during puberty? If so, why are they lazier?
thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:Not one of those women could beat an equally skilled man in the same devision as themselves. The man will have much greater muscle density, quicker reflexes and stronger bones. If this hurts your feelings, suck it up and go take an anatomy class, followed by grade school biology. If it still hurts your feelings after that, go join a hippy feminist commune, because you just arent cut out for reality.
I and my Master's degree in Biomedical Engineering must beg to differ.
The physical differences between men and women are infintessimally small. Our bodies physically respond to the stresses we put on them, that's why our muscles gain strength by repeatedly moving heavy weights. The main physical difference between a man and woman is where the center of gravity is on the body - a woman's center of gravity is lower than a man's, relative to their body size. Oh, and women tend to be shorter. Structurally, the reproductive organs differ, as well as the pelvic girdle.
If you'd like, you can borrow some of my textbooks on Anatomy & Physiology, or perhaps one of the ones I've got floating around on Kinesiology. You might find them enlightening, to say the least.
I will tell you this, though - there are differences between most men and women. The potential differences are what I listed, whereas the actual differences are put down to what stresses we put on our bodies during the bout of rapid growth we all experience known as "puberty". Our bodies morph and shift over time based on the stresses we put on them - that's why you can look at a dancer and say "he or she is a dancer" or a runner and say "he or she is a runner". Puberty is when our bodies are programmed to shift rapidly, and that means that what we do during puberty (for the most part) defines what our bodies adapt to handle - dancers have muscular legs with strong bones and high upper body strength along with a high concentration of red, or "slow twitch" muscle fibers compared to the "fast twitch" muscles (showing endurance). Runners tend to be lean due to a higher proportion of fast vs slow muscle fibers - fast fibers are leaner than slow, which gives the runner a lean, lanky look. As far as bone remodeling is concerned, look to sports that force people into "unnatural" positions, such as the middle-ages English Longbowmen, who were so massively broad in the upper body (due to stresses causing bone remodeling to handle the draw of a 150 pound draw longbow), or even today with weightlifters and barrel chests with broad shoulders, or horseback riders with wide hips and bowed legs.
To make a long story short: what a person does during puberty is the main influence on how their bodies grow, which is the sole explanation for your "men and women are different!" frothing rant. Since most women don't spend their formative years doing "masculine" activities, they're not as equipped as adults to handle doing those masculine activities. That's the reason for the difference, not any sort of biological or anatomical "genetic differences".
Let me get this straight, you are saying that therer are no noticable difference between men and women when it comes to physical apperence, muscle strength ect and that the only thing that really matters what kind of training ect they did during puberty? Where did you attend uni if I might ask? Can you please explain why every world record in every sport where muscles are involved are held by a man? Is it because women are lazy and dont excersise as much during puberty? If so, why are they lazier?
Well, if he's right then it's likely because women have traditionally not done weightlifting during puberty, or most other forms of physical training. Even now it's considered unusual.
It excites me (in more ways than one), when my boyfriend talks 40k with me.
And I have a huge fantasy of getting frisky on top of a GWS table... (in the name of the Emperor!)
*runs*
- Your myth-busting heretic.
/ Females who love 40k, and it's lovely fellow gamers.
I know I complained a little earlier, but really, for the most part, this hobby is crammed full of incredibly sweet, incredibly intelligent, wonderful people.
TheSinheizer wrote:I can't hold it in any longer...
It excites me (in more ways than one), when my boyfriend talks 40k with me.
And I have a huge fantasy of getting frisky on top of a GWS table... (in the name of the Emperor!)
*runs*
- Your myth-busting heretic.
/ Females who love 40k, and it's lovely fellow gamers.
I know I complained a little earlier, but really, for the most part, this hobby is crammed full of incredibly sweet, incredibly intelligent, wonderful people.
Sorry, my board is made of polystyrene and foamboard. It might get broken!
Still, it is good to know there are females in The Hobby (u mad haters?) who would describe us nerdy man-children as lovely. You've made my day!
thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:[But my point still stands, and I simply felt like airing out my frustrations with the "im every woman," "We are strong" liberal feminatzi movement. And the line of tripe they force upon culture as a whole. And here is why, for those of you who want a little personal story.
I was lucky enough to have a mother who stayed at home and raised me and my two sisters. And to sit and watch the nasty self righteous whitches denigrate my mother as a "backwards regretionist" loser to lazy and or stupid to work like "real women" should, makes me want to puke.
There are fringe nutters in every group. The entire point of feminism is equality; in society, employment, rights, etc, not that women should become a CEO at the age of 25, make her first trillion at the age of 26, fund genetic research to "cure the male problem" by age 28, and then rule over a world without men at the age of 30
There are certain physiological differences between men and women, but the difference between average people of different sexes is essentially meaningless in modern society. Dump them into the jungle and most men and women from middle America would be dead within a week, regardless of how "genetically superior their gender is when it comes to hunting", or whatever tired trope it is that you want to wheel out to "demonstrate" that one sex is better than the other. In the grand scheme of things, there is no difference between men and women.
Well the size and body composition things are actually facts, but I do agree that there is nothing that makes men exclusively good at hunting. Sorta of like how female wolves are better at tracking prey, and male wolves are better at taking down big game (bison, moose etc.)
Saying there is no difference is ignorant, but it is not as black and white as that other individual (who shall remain nameless) sees it.
One point he did raise that is interesting though, is the whole feminazi thing. It IS starting to get slightly out of hand, with women maintaining their special rights while gaining those of men, and getting paid equally at certain physical labour jobs where they accomplish less.
Je suis2 au hazard wrote:One point he did raise that is interesting though, is the whole feminazi thing. It IS starting to get slightly out of hand, with women maintaining their special rights while gaining those of men, and getting paid equally at certain physical labour jobs where they accomplish less.
It's getting terribly out of hand, to the extent where there is so much emphasis placed on women to the detriment of their male counterparts, especially regarding matters such as male legal rights, and care / attention brought to domestic violence from women against men. In honesty, I believe it is actually much easier for women to secure jobs than men. But that's another topic for another time. In short: Humanism FTW.
Je suis2 au hazard wrote:One point he did raise that is interesting though, is the whole feminazi thing. It IS starting to get slightly out of hand, with women maintaining their special rights while gaining those of men, and getting paid equally at certain physical labour jobs where they accomplish less.
It's getting terribly out of hand, to the extent where there is so much emphasis placed on women to the detriment of their male counterparts, especially regarding matters such as male legal rights, and care / attention brought to domestic violence from women against men. In honesty, I believe it is actually much easier for women to secure jobs than men. But that's another topic for another time. In short: Humanism FTW.
Well there are advantages and disadvantages given to both, with males getting social advantages in the workplace, and women getting legal advantages.
The male advantages was, I read in an article the other day, that women are seen as less likable the more power they have, cowing them (subconsciously) from rising through the ranks in the workplace.
Female advantages (atleast in my native province of Ontario) include being guaranteed positions, even when they don't earn them (there is actually a law in ontario [Toronto only maybe? dunno] that says every business needs at least one female on the management team...what the hell? The most accomplished man in the world could be replaced by a blonde airhead) and being paid equally in work sectors where they generally don't accomplish nearly as much as men...heavy lifting-related jobs, for example.
Either way, if the feminists get any more hardcore than they are now, action will become necessary, but at the moment it isn't TOO wild.
And by action I do NOT mean the Montreal Massacre, I mean petitioning the governement for the masculist agenda.
Harriticus wrote:Hopeless cause this hobby and ladies will never go together no matter what you do
Soccerlfb6 wrote:...all girls want is money...u spend a ton on this hobby...itll piss em off and c it as a waste...end of story ur money goes to them not models..
TedNugent wrote:
Soccerlfb6 wrote:...all girls want is money...u spend a ton on this hobby...itll piss em off and c it as a waste...end of story ur money goes to them not models..
Exactly. Women like diamonds and shiz.
Misogynistic attitudes like this really don't help.
), and it doesn't require an MD - I'm going to eventually go for my MSN in Nurse Anesthetist. Same pay as an anesthesiologist, less bother with malpractice insurance and kvetchy patients. Same total time invested, though, which does suck. C'est la vie! I'm already qualified as a flight paramedic, now once I graduate in May (and pass my NCLEX) I'll be upgraded to flight RN.