Minis with Enemies wrote:Minis with Enemies brings the creativity, adventure, camaraderie and competition of tabletop miniature gaming to life on your PC, Tablet and Mobile devices! For the first time, you’ll be able to experience authentic miniature gaming any time or anywhere with your closest friends and enemies around the world.
Minis with Enemies is everything you want in a tabletop miniature game. Collect, trade and paint hundreds of highly detailed Minis to build your ultimate army. Command your Minis into the depths of the deepest, darkest dungeons and battle your way through Adventure Maps to earn coins, items, and uncover new Minis.
The Minis with Enemies turn-based gameplay, allows you to play multiple games simultaneously alongside or against friends, enemies and strangers on predefined Adventure Maps. Or, take on the all-powerful role of the Game Master and create the adventure of your dreams (and their nightmares) by building a fully customized map using creatures, treasures and tiles you’ve collected on your journeys, or purchased in the bazaar.
The Game: Minis with Enemies brings the Tabletop Mini experience to life on PC/Mac and most tablet and mobile devices. A fully 3D experience, the game combines the enjoyment of miniature gaming with the accessibility of computer and mobile gaming to enable you to play multiple games wherever and whenever you want.
Turn-based Gaming: Minis with Enemies is an asynchronous turn-based game that allows you to play at your own pace. Only the active player needs to be logged in to take their turn. When it is your turn, you will be able to watch the moves and actions from previous rounds to help formulate a unified combat strategy.
PVP Battles: Adventure through pre-built Adventure Maps alone, cooperatively with up to 4 friends, or against your enemies in PVP and team PVP battles!
Collectable Rewards: Defeat the Adventure Map objective to win Items, Minis, and Gold! Gold can be used to buy new Minis, usable items, Adventure Editor pieces and creatures as well as user generated Adventure Maps.
Custom Content: Fancy yourself a storyteller? Take control on the Adventure Editor and build your own Adventure Maps using room templates to quickly build the map and fill it with creatures and diabolical traps for your ultimate adventure story!
Game Modes: Minis with Enemies will have three gameplay modes at launch with new modes being added frequently. Each game mode offers a unique experience where different tactics, strategies and play styles greatly affect the outcome.
Game Master Mode: Game Master Mode puts you in control of the Adventure Map pitting you against up to four other players. Your goal is to defeat the players by controlling creatures, setting traps and being evil!
Cooperative Play Mode: Co-op Mode allows you to play alongside up to three other players in Adventure Maps against the computer AI or a Game Master. Collect treasures, defeat the creatures and meet the objective in order complete the map and earn Gold, Items and Minis!
PVP Mode: PVP Mode puts you head-to-head against up to three other players as you try to be the first to complete the Adventure Map objective. In addition to earning Gold, Items and Minis…you earn bragging rights!
The Minis: Your Mini represents your character on the map. Each Mini has its own backstory and personality, as well as unique skills, attributes and abilities. Minis also have different levels, skills and tactics, which become critical game changers in the heat of battle!
With over 100 Minis at launch, you will have a hard time deciding which one to take into battle. Minis can be Common, Uncommon or Rare and some Adventure Maps have requirements and penalties on which types of Minis can be taken into battle, so you’ll want to collect them all!
Each Mini comes with a character card that tells its name, backstory, stats, skills and abilities. The character card also shows the Mini’s die rolls and keeps track of its health and penalties.
You will receive one set of random Minis when you first launch the game. You can trade and sell Minis or purchase additional Minis in the form of Blister Packs using gold earned through Adventures. Minis also have a random chance of being earned by completing Adventure Maps in each of the game modes.
Like physical tabletop games, when you get a new Mini it will be an unpainted blank canvas that you can turn into your own masterpiece using the Mini Painter.
Mini Painter: The Mini Painter is a 3D painting utility that gives you the ability to paint and repaint your Minis in a 3D space using a wide variety of paints, washes and decals. The initial release of the Mini Painter features a simplified version of the painting editor. Future releases will feature “brush stroke” painting for an extraordinary level of color detail and customization.
The Bazaar: The Minis with Enemies Bazaar is a marketplace where you can browse and buy Minis, Adventure Maps, Set Decorations, Tile Sets, and other items using your in-game Gold and cold hard cash!
Chat System: Minis with Enemies’ in-game chat feature lets you easily communicate with friends and enemies in the Adventure Map to formulate strategies or taunt the Game Master.
You’ve probably heard or read all the hyperbole about how the videogame industry is changing and it’s becoming harder for independent studios to get the funding needed from publishers to make quality games and all that, right?
Well, it’s all true!
The way games are being distributed is also changing, and by going directly to you, the gamer, we can accurately gauge the interest and excitement level of the project.
Many of us here at Heatwave have been in the game industry for a long time, 15 or more years working for some of the world’s biggest game publishers (SOE, EA, Sega, Bethesda, Turbine, Take Two, Atari) on some of the world’s biggest game titles (Dungeons & Dragons Online®, Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim®, Star Wars™, LOTRO, Call of Duty®, Battlefield, Mortal Kombat™, Ultima Online™, The Sims™). We paid our dues and learned the hard way what works and (unfortunately) what doesn’t work. We also know that if you love the project, and are totally passionate about what you’re creating, it has the potential to be huge (and tons of fun to build).
We’re sick of the long and painful development cycles with lots of fighting and bickering about the design as well as a lot of costly and unnecessary “feature creep” (the addition of new, unplanned features) that causes projects to miss their dates, go over budget and not appeal to anyone. So, we decided to take matters into our own hands.
So, why launch the Kickstarter campaign now? Why so early in the development cycle? That’s a great question, and I think you will like the answer.
Getting backers on board early helps us focus on the features that are important to you, the players. We want to get you, the people who love the Minis with Enemies concept, involved as early as possible in every phase of the development and creative decision making process. We want your feedback on everything from art direction, like the logo design, to major gameplay decisions, such as should we use a grid or a hex based map system.
It is much more efficient and economical to create game elements that we know will appeal to our players rather than writing and rewriting systems over and over in response to feedback once the project is live. We feel the best way to do that is to get you involved in discussions and play tests as soon as possible.
Everyone who backs Minis with Enemies with a pledge of $15.00 or higher will be a member of our “Community Design” team. As a Community Designer, you will have access to the Minis with Enemies developer forums, be invited to Skype chats and Google+ Hangouts, be asked to complete surveys on all stages of development and design, have exclusive access to our team meetings, be able to download and play test PDF versions of the new system, and provide feedback on different game modes and rule sets.
As we mentioned, one of the first thing we need your feedback on is the Minis with Enemies logo. Check out the latest version of the logo here and leave a comment telling is what you think!
In order to bring Minis with Enemies to life, we are asking for your help to raise $300,000 by July 3, 2012.
This is an amazing project! We are super excited about the design and concept and know that it will bring hours and hours of enjoyment to your life.
So, support Minis with Enemies today by pledging at least $15.00 (or more to get sweet loot) and help spread the word. The more people that back this project, the more likely we are to meet our funding goal!
First off, that would be AMAZING and truly validate our strong feeling about Minis with Enemies!
If we exceed our funding goal, the funds go directly into the expansion of cool and more robust features such as a more detailed Mini Painter and more Minis, tile sets and editor functions. If we are fortunate enough to get in the ballpark of our funding goal, we will outline a new plan…with your input of course.
Check out the full list of rewards on the right side of the screen.
Everyone who backs Minis with Enemies will get their name in the “Special Thanks” game screen credits. All backers who pledge $15.00 or more will get a special “Community Designer” credit on the launch website and in the game!
In addition to credits, all $15.00 or higher backers will become members of the Minis with Enemies Community Design Team and will gain access to the private development forums, have email access to the team, be invited to Skype chats and Google+ hangouts, sent regular surveys on design and marketing/branding decisions and play an integral role in providing the feedback that will shape Minis with Enemies into the ultimate Digital Tabletop Mini Game!
†All content must be approved by the Heatwave development team to be included in the Minis with Enemies game client.
We are Heatwave Interactive! We are an Austin, TX based studio comprised of over 30 gamers with extensive game development experience and an expertise in Role Playing Games, Massively Multiplayer Online Games (MMO) and large scale online multiplayer games. Passion for creating games that give the player tools to unleash their creativity and share a unique gaming experience with old and new friends is what drives us, and is the force behind Minis with Enemies!
Members of the Heatwave Interactive team have been a part of creating some of the most amazing and groundbreaking games in the last 20 years and we come from all disciplines including Design, Engineering, Audio Design, Server Architecture, Network Operations, QA, Marketing, Community and Customer Service. Titles we have worked on and shipped include:
The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim®, Dungeons & Dragons Online®, The Ultima™ series, Ultima Online™ and the expansions, Lord of the Rings™ Series , EverQuest®, EverQuest II®, DC Universe Online™, Wing Commander™ series, Alpha Centauri™, Privateer, Madden NFL, Star Wars™ Galaxies, Battlefield 2™, Gods & Heroes™, iSamJackson™, Platinum Life: Country, and many, many more!
WE LOVE GAMES! We love PC games, we love console games, we love board games and we love Tabletop games. We run Descent campaigns at lunch and several of us play a D&D game that has been running for over five years. We paint minis and build set props. We want to make Minis with Enemies for ourselves just as much as we want to make it for you.
I'm not associated with this Kickstarter project in any way, nor do I know them personally. However, these guys are based in my hometown, and I thought it was a cool idea, so just sharing with Dakka!
If I'm reading this correctly, there aren't actually any physical miniatures being produced, and the "mini blister packs" are bought in-game, and then digitally painted using the "mini-painter" app in-game?
So, it's a Kickstarter for a computer game with a target of $300k?
Seems like they're implying you could play 40K, but wouldn't GW (rightfully) deny them the rights to use their rulesets? I mean, we aren't even allowed to post points costs in forums.
And exclusive colours? So colours are in some way limited? I'll just actually paint actual miniatures.
The more I think about it, the worse it is. It would be great if fully licensed by GW (or whoever's game it is you want to play) but it clearly cannot be. The video and kickstarter page do little to tell me otherwise.
EDIT: I get it now. There are 100 'minis' and you (I have to assume this part) basically play against eachother with the rules that you already know. Doesn't seem like anything even close to a wargame, so I wish they didn't feature 40K and Warmachine so much. IMO, they're trying to do what EA did with FIFA Ultimate Team and make a quick buck. I hate them.
I don't want to sound like a stickler or anything, but what draws me to tabletop gaming more than video games is at the end of the day I have something in my hands.
My guardsmen that I've spent so much time (and money) on and my tanks give me a sort of pride that I don't get when I see a "You Win!" video screen. I'll pledge because I think its neat but I don't know how I'll feel about the finished product.
Yeah, I think this thing is destined to fail... such a stupid concept that misses the entire point of what this hobby is about. Thoroughly unimpressed, 10 points from Gryffindor!
I'm similarly confused on what I'm supposed to do with that program. I assume if they had a D&D, pathfinder, battle tech, or GW license we'd know. So what minis are they going to use?
Yeah, this doesn't really look like a real feat of software engineering, I mean I could probably whip something with rough edges like this up in a few months.
Looks like with the mentions of "in game coins" he wants to do a microtransaction model beyond that to make even more money?
but more than a quarter of a million dollars? I cant help this is some random dude that knows a bit about programming trying to strike it big.
Just to make it clear, they are planning on developing their own rules set for the game. The miniatures and maps, etc. mentioned are digital components, not physical models.
The goal does seem high to me, but as with any Kickstarter, if they don't meet the goal, the backers don't pay. If they think there is interest to reach their goal, it is their goal to try and meet.
Newabortion wrote:I don't want to sound like a stickler or anything, but what draws me to tabletop gaming more than video games is at the end of the day I have something in my hands.
My guardsmen that I've spent so much time (and money) on and my tanks give me a sort of pride that I don't get when I see a "You Win!" video screen. I'll pledge because I think its neat but I don't know how I'll feel about the finished product.
I definitely agree the immediacy of table top games is what draws most of us. What I think personally i find exciting about this is the possibility of a game system where you have a rules set that could also potentially be carried over into actual tabletop games as well as be played digitally. I know that's not really their pitch, but a certain level of backers are able to join in the development discussion.
Grundz wrote: I cant help this is some random dude that knows a bit about programming trying to strike it big.
They are an established video game company, and right in the description shows some of the very well known games they've worked on. Congrats on not bothering to read the handful of paragraphs and jumping to the conclusion they're running some sort of scam.
I'm going to donate to this kickstarter solely because they're in Austin. I really hope this succeeds, since I'd like to apply to an internship or other job there when I come back for college.
Newabortion wrote:I don't want to sound like a stickler or anything, but what draws me to tabletop gaming more than video games is at the end of the day I have something in my hands.
My guardsmen that I've spent so much time (and money) on and my tanks give me a sort of pride that I don't get when I see a "You Win!" video screen. I'll pledge because I think its neat but I don't know how I'll feel about the finished product.
I definitely agree the immediacy of table top games is what draws most of us. What I think personally i find exciting about this is the possibility of a game system where you have a rules set that could also potentially be carried over into actual tabletop games as well as be played digitally. I know that's not really their pitch, but a certain level of backers are able to join in the development discussion.
Hm, that is a new way of thinking about it, heh tbh I didn't think about applying their rules to tabletop just visa versa.
I definitely agree the immediacy of table top games is what draws most of us. What I think personally i find exciting about this is the possibility of a game system where you have a rules set that could also potentially be carried over into actual tabletop games as well as be played digitally. I know that's not really their pitch, but a certain level of backers are able to join in the development discussion.
Grundz wrote: I cant help this is some random dude that knows a bit about programming trying to strike it big.
They are an established video game company, and right in the description shows some of the very well known games they've worked on. Congrats on not bothering to read the handful of paragraphs and jumping to the conclusion they're running some sort of scam.
I think, as a more platform-friendly version of Vassal, something like this couls work well.
I'd love to have a Vassal-like piece of software that works on all mobile devices, allows 3d interaction and sightlines, a much better/easier user interface, etc. I'd love to be able to play Vassal games over days, but in 3d and without all the tedious saving-your-armies procedure.
This would only work if people could easily impose their own rulesets and make their own sprites. Then there is no licensing problem. You could release this as a purchased product, and then users would create/distribute their own '40k patch' if they wanted to. It could have a feature that allows 2d 'cutouts' to inhabit the 3d world, this removing the need for every path-maker to be a 3D modeller.
However, this Kickstarter project doesn't actually say they're going to do this.As far as I can tell, this is a NEW wargame, just online. That doesn't appeal to me as much.
I found their pitch rather confusing tbh, I read through it twice and I'm not still certain I completely understand their product. Its probably because (I think) they're pitching a 'digital miniatures' game, which is confusing because when you say 'minis' people inherently assume there's a physical mini involved. And wouldn't 'digital miniatures' essentially be any video game where you have little dudes you kit out and make fight, like Total War or DOW or hell even Diablo.
I mean if they had said their product was a cross-platform, squad-based, turn-by-turn tactical sim I'd have grasped that right away. Or the elevator pitch: 'Its like multiplayer Xcom but everything's customizable.' That would have garnered comprehension AND my interest.
dont loke the fact that there calling in game sprites "minis" or that those "minis" come in "blister packs" ...
to me its allmost like there causeing confusion on purpose so that people pledge thinking they will recive an actual miniature .
Are they being intentionally vague? I am interested in running some online D&D stuff but there's decent apps for that already. Note: Decent. As far as a miniatures game here.. well, unless the map is tiled and they find a way to work in movement value and dont use a digital tape measurer or anything.. eh...
Q. What is Minis with Enemies?
A. Minis with Enemies is a game for your PC, Mac, Tablet and Mobile phone that takes the tabletop gaming experience of Dungeons & Dragons, Descent, Heroes Quest and Warhammer 40K (but with a single squad) and brings it to life in a digital format. Minis with Enemies includes collecting and painting minis using the Mini Painter inside the game, Cooperative gameplay as you explore and conquer scenarios with up to 3 other friends, Player-vs-Player game play in several different game modes (we’ll describe those soon), or you can take on the role of the Game Master and go up against up to 4 other players as you place and control the enemies, create and tell the story and try to build the ultimate scenario.
Q. Is this a multiplayer or single player game?
A. Both!
You can play through all of the pre-built scenarios by yourself or you can play with others in these asynchronous multiplayer game modes:
Cooperatively with up to 3 other players as you try to complete the scenario without dying.
Head-to-head against up to three other players as you try to be the first to complete the objective.
As a Game Master where YOU control the scenario, enemies and story against up to 4 other players as they try to beat you and complete the scenario.
Q. What does “Asynchronous” mean?
A. It means that only the person taking their turn has to be in the game. This is a turn based game that allows each player to play at their own pace. When a player has finished their turn, all of the other players in that scenario will be notified and can return to the game to see the move that was made and the next player can take their turn.
Q. What other games play like that?
A. Words with Friends and Draw Something are a few recent games that use the asynchronous turn-based mechanic.
“Words with Friends is to Scrabble as Minis With Enemies is to Miniature Combat Gaming.”
Q. Can I play the same game on multiple devices?
A. Yes! You can start a game on the PC and the next time it's your turn, you can make your move using your mobile device or tablet.
Q. Can I be playing in multiple games at the same time?
A. Yes! You can play in as many games at one time as you have Minis to play in those games. If you have 12 playable minis, then you can play in 12 games.
Q. Is this a physical Tabletop game or a digital game?
A. This is a digital game that recreates the experience of the physical tabletop game in a fully realized 3D environment that can be played across the PC, Mac, Tablet and Mobile platforms.
Q. What does “cross platform” mean?
A. “Cross Platform” means that multiple people can play together in the same game using different types of devices. For example, Bob can be playing on his PC while Jenny is playing in the same multiplayer game with Bob but on her smartphone and Tom is playing on his tablet.
Q. When you say “Collect” minis, do you mean real figures that I can hold?
A. Nope, Minis with Enemies is a digital experience with over 100 digital minis that you try to acquire inside the game by completing objectives or through the digital store (the Bazaar) using in-game gold or real world cash if you want to expedite things.
Q. You mentioned I will get a set of Random Minis…what does that mean? Can I choose which minis I get?
A. Right now the plan is that each copy of Minis with Enemies will come with a set of 4 minis (these numbers are still being finalized with your help!). These 4 minis will be selected randomly from a pool of 20 common minis. This helps mix things up a little and gives a little more variety for new players playing a multiplayer game. If everyone had the same 4 minis, the options for beginning maps would be limited.
Obviously we want your feedback on how you see this working best.
As for being able to choose specific minis, we are working out all the details on the business model, but the thought right now is that you will be able to spend in-game gold on:
Common Blister Packs: These contain 4 random common minis with a small chance of getting 1 uncommon mini
Gold Blister Packs: These contain 1 random uncommon mini and have a higher chance of getting additional uncommon minis as well as a very slight chance of getting a rare mini
You will be able to buy Platinum Blister packs using real world money. Platinum Blister Packs will contain 1 random rare mini and three uncommon minis with a slight chance of getting additional rare minis.
You will be able to bypass the Blister Packs and purchase specific minis at a premium price.
Again, this is still very early in development and as a backer, we want your feedback.
Q. Is all this stuff you’re saying carved in stone and not going to change?
A. No way! As with any project in development, some of the details, especially numbers, will change. And that’s partly why we wanted to get the community involved so early. To get feedback before we spend hours and hours coding and solidifying designs.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Seeing as they specifically mention this is a one squad per game affair in the FAQ, I dont see any 40k or Warmachine recreations going on. Sounds like they really want to push their own brand.
That said, they havent mentioned if each mini has it's own specific abilities or if you can just use it as a vessel for your own rules.
I think this is a very interesting idea, and looks to be one of the few video games to ever catch my interest.
I can see loads of possibilities to play games with friends I have gamed with over the years who are all over the country.
My current issues are:
1) Buying digital miniatures. If I'm paying money for non-tangible things, they better be damn cheap. I'm not paying $5 for 4 or 5 random "common" digital images. Forget it.
2) DM's have to stock the dungeon with models and treasure they already have?
Wait. WTF?
I have to pay for models to get killed by (do I still get to keep them?) and give MY treasure to my friends if I want to DM? Aside from the experience of being a "DM," what do I get out of it? If a character dies, do I get THEIR treasure?
Seems like a money pit for DM's or a way to end friendships by killing characters and looting the stuff your buddy paid a lot of money for.
I think dungeons should be randomly stocked with treasure by default, even if you're creating your own. I mean, why would I create a dungeon and stock it with stuff *I* paid for, when we can all just go raid the dungeons put out by the company and take THEIR swag?
3) Will dungeons have required character levels? Will characters level up? How do I keep my L1 halfling thief from accidentally stumbling against a Pit Fiend? LOL
The video looks well done, and I'm sure they have cool ideas, but I really don't "get it" .. is it a video game? is it a miniatures game? Is it a "here's a 3D model of a space marine, now click these colors and you can pretend-paint him"?
They're asking for a lot .. I think it's gonna be pretty hard to hit that goal, they need to at least show off an early version of the software in action so people know what it is exactly.
IMO kickstarter works best with the "start it yourself, ask for help to finish it" kind of approach, not the "here's my idea, now give me cash to make it happen" method.
Another thing. Based on what they are trying to sell, one could easily take Maptools, a free RPG style, virtual table top, and use it's advanced macro functions to replicate everything this project aims to do.
AND generate all your own minis.
It's Java based, so conceivably it could easily be ported to just about any device.
Or am I missing something?
With over 100 Minis at launch, you will have a hard time deciding which one to take into battle.
Right now the plan is that each copy of Minis with Enemies will come with a set of 4 minis (these numbers are still being finalized with your help!). These 4 minis will be selected randomly from a pool of 20 common minis.
-_-
The least they could do is let the owner choose which 4 units they start with. The comparison was made to CCGs like Magic before, but at least there if you decide you like, say, Vampires, you can just go and buy a Vampire theme deck instead of getting stuck with two Goblins, an Elf and some sort of Ooze. Being given the choice to either fork over more money or playing with units you don't like to maybe get some units you actually like is such an unappealing idea that their failure to cotton on to that fact should render the whole project suspect.
"Dungeons & Dragons, Descent, Heroes Quest and Warhammer 40K (but with a single squad)"
I actually like the idea of multiplayer asynchronous dungeon crawls.
They seem to have thrown TTGs and 40k around to snag the interest of that audience, but this really has nothing to do with recreating army or even skirmish based games digitally.
Pox-nora sort of did the mini/ccg thing already, although they had inter player trading options and you could avoid the "random buy" stuff entirely.
This could be quite cool, I just think they are going to confuse and therefore annoy some people wth the angle their pitch is taking.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AlexHolker wrote:
With over 100 Minis at launch, you will have a hard time deciding which one to take into battle.
Right now the plan is that each copy of Minis with Enemies will come with a set of 4 minis (these numbers are still being finalized with your help!). These 4 minis will be selected randomly from a pool of 20 common minis.
-_-
The least they could do is let the owner choose which 4 units they start with. The comparison was made to CCGs like Magic before, but at least there if you decide you like, say, Vampires, you can just go and buy a Vampire theme deck instead of getting stuck with two Goblins, an Elf and some sort of Ooze. Being given the choice to either fork over more money or playing with units you don't like to maybe get some units you actually like is such an unappealing idea that their failure to cotton on to that fact should render the whole project suspect.
It's not units though, as far as I can tell. You'd get Steve the Ranger, Mary-Sue the sensual barbarian, Philip the black-market dentist, and Axeface the Goblin...I think?
At the very least theme packs seem like a good idea, at least as a starter.
So. Frozen Synapse (or any other tactical strategy turn-based game FWIW) with customizable characters. But having to pay to customize them? I think I won't jump in, I'm sorry.
Edit: oh, random minis in the blisters, like colletible pre-painted games. No, thanks.
Cadaver wrote:
They are an established video game company, and right in the description shows some of the very well known games they've worked on. Congrats on not bothering to read the handful of paragraphs and jumping to the conclusion they're running some sort of scam.
A single game company did not make all of those games, these "guys' have made nothing.
Worst kickstarter pitch I have seen so far. Let' s see now; they want 300k bloody dollars to start making an unoriginal project which sounds about as advanced as a 2009 flash game at best AND they will make use of microtransactions WITH random elements (to incentivise more purchases) and on top of that heaping pile of oxen manure they insist that this is somehow something revolutionary. The gall of these fething people amazes me and I would tell anyone and everyone to stay far away from this poop.
Cadaver wrote:
They are an established video game company, and right in the description shows some of the very well known games they've worked on. Congrats on not bothering to read the handful of paragraphs and jumping to the conclusion they're running some sort of scam.
A single game company did not make all of those games, these "guys' have made nothing.
You're right these guys did not create all the games listed on their resumes as Heatwave Interactive, but they did participate in the development at some point in their career. And they do have their own games: http://heatwave.com/products.php So they've hardly created nothing.
As others have said, if they don't get funding, that's no big loss. They tested the waters and noone looses anything. However, you've said 1) they are out to make a quick buck and 2) they have no professional experience as a company, which is completely false. If you want to post valid criticism, as many others have here, please do. But making comments in direct contradiction to what can be found by simply reading their Kickstarter page and a quick look at their website does nothing but make you look foolish.
Windir83 wrote:Worst kickstarter pitch I have seen so far. Let' s see now; they want 300k bloody dollars to start making an unoriginal project which sounds about as advanced as a 2009 flash game at best AND they will make use of microtransactions WITH random elements (to incentivise more purchases) and on top of that heaping pile of oxen manure they insist that this is somehow something revolutionary. The gall of these fething people amazes me and I would tell anyone and everyone to stay far away from this poop.
It could be worse: the booster packs could be random drops that you can then pay real money to open.
Yeah, there is no way I would personally consider backing this project because:
A) It is blind purchase.
B) From what I can tell you're not playing the game with a bunch of virtual minis, you're playing with a handful (at most).
C) Their initial pitch, including their video does not cover what the actual gameplay of the game will be like.
To expand on each:
A) There are no successful miniature games on the market that use blind purchases at their core and those that have tried have all failed...and certainly none that required painting your models. So if this game is trying to virtually simulate a miniature game where you paint your own models then they are missing the boat: in the mini gaming hobby you choose which models you like either from an aesthetics or gameplay perspective and then you purchase THOSE models because you like them. Adding blind purchase into the mix means this is something I will never, ever, ever be interested in...even if the blind purchase can be made via in-game money.
B) The video uses tabeltop gaming as the example and shows many, many images of people playing 40K, Warmachine, Dust Warfare, etc, which are all games where you're using a ton of miniatures. But then if you read their descriptions the game sounds like it will use only a handful of virtual miniatures at most...in fact, the game sounds a whole lot more like a RPG than a traditional tabletop game. So what's the point of showing all these mass miniature games in the video if the actual game won't be anything like that? I just don't get it.
C) I know video game kickstarters can be tough because it can be too costly to come up with demo art assets, etc, to really show what the game will be like until the company actually raises some money, but frankly if you're going to go the route of not showing *any* art assets or gameplay examples then you better have a really, really solid explanation of exactly what gameplay will be like. But that just isn't the case here. The entire pitch basically is explaining the 'feeling' of miniature gaming without ever explaining how this feeling will actually be translated into an actual GAME. Where are the descriptions of the game? Even if alot of that can still be changed or developed, there should at least be some baseline explanations about what the game will look like and how it will actually play. There simply is no way I would ever consider backing a project like this without knowing what the freaking game will actually consist of!
Yes, the game will have collectible miniatures, yes you can paint them, yes you can trade and sell them, yes you can play asynchronously, co-op, etc, but what is the freaking game like? How can this game possibly give me the same virtual feeling as the tabeltop games I'm used to if each side is only using a handful of miniatures?
1. I feel they presented what they intend to make, a way to make money, not a fun game.
2. Of the "games" they have made, 1 is some sort of farmville facebook game, 1 is buggy and terrible, and one has something to do with samuel jackson and I phones.
Not saying they can't make a good game, but when you start with the question, "how is this going to make money?" Instead of "how can we make this fun?" I have a hard time putting any faith in the ability to produce anything enjoyable.
You will be able to buy Platinum Blister packs using real world money. Platinum Blister Packs will contain 1 random rare mini and three uncommon minis with a slight chance of getting additional rare minis.
You will be able to bypass the Blister Packs and purchase specific minis at a premium price.
That kills the idea of a good game right there.. It's pay to win. most pay to win games go down hill in terms of balance very quickly.
Considering that many new games are going free to play with no buyable power of sorts, this idea seems a bit dated.
Superscope wrote:That kills the idea of a good game right there.. It's pay to win. most pay to win games go down hill in terms of balance very quickly.
I think they said you'd be able to also purchase stuff with in-game currency that you build up after playing the game, which would be totally fine with me personally if they didn't have blind purchase involved.
Because if basically everyone started out with the same amount of virtual currency to purchase their first models and then you could purchase the other models you like as you go along also with virtual currency (but you also have the option to buy them with real money to speed things up), it could totally work because it would be like a real miniatures game where you decide which models you want to buy next to include in your army.
But they're not going that route it seems, instead they're making this more heroclix than 40K, which personally has absolutely zero appeal to me.
So I can spend a truck load of money on blisters and STILL not get my Charezard? Uber-PASS!!! Out of 100 "available" minis, 20 will be commons. That means that 80 are uncommon/rare.
I stopped playing the player unfriendly "collectable" games a long time ago. Collectable in this case is read as "prison raping you through your wallet".
yakface wrote:
B) The video uses tabeltop gaming as the example and shows many, many images of people playing 40K, Warmachine, Dust Warfare, etc, which are all games where you're using a ton of miniatures. But then if you read their descriptions the game sounds like it will use only a handful of virtual miniatures at most...in fact, the game sounds a whole lot more like a RPG than a traditional tabletop game. So what's the point of showing all these mass miniature games in the video if the actual game won't be anything like that? I just don't get it.
Most likely they saw the success of some of the big kickstarters with lots of minis for free that have been happening recently (zombicide, sedition wars, mantic) and decided
"Wow, people pay so much for MINIs, people love MINIs, what if we could get a slice of that pie, only we'll be cool and make MINIs 2.0 for the new digital age of social gaming instead of having to mess around with all that plastic and stuff."
"Wow, if we could sell the MINIs digitally, it'll be just like e-books, no need to buy the real-world thing when you can have digital MINIs and play against anyone anywhere in the world! Wow, this will be huge!"
It;s extremely poorly-thought out. Even the name of it "Minis with Enemies" sounds "noob" to be honest, like the kind of game title you'd expect to see from someone who doesn't have English as their first language.
There really is nothing to see here, it is just a video game idea, like the hundreds of other kickstarter video game ideas that do not get funded... developers spam them in the hopes that eventually they'll find enough people to pay them $100k to fund an easy flash game-style project that will take them 3 months to make, and then make them a ton of money on release via microtransactions after that.
scarletsquig wrote:Most likely they saw the success of some of the big kickstarters with lots of minis for free that have been happening recently (zombicide, sedition wars, mantic) and decided
"Wow, people pay so much for MINIs, people love MINIs, what if we could get a slice of that pie, only we'll be cool and make MINIs 2.0 for the new digital age of social gaming instead of having to mess around with all that plastic and stuff."
"Wow, if we could sell the MINIs digitally, it'll be just like e-books, no need to buy the real-world thing when you can have digital MINIs and play against anyone anywhere in the world! Wow, this will be huge!"
It;s extremely poorly-thought out. Even the name of it "Minis with Enemies" sounds "noob" to be honest, like the kind of game title you'd expect to see from someone who doesn't have English as their first language.
There really is nothing to see here, it is just a video game idea, like the hundreds of other kickstarter video game ideas that do not get funded... developers spam them in the hopes that eventually they'll find enough people to pay them $100k to fund an easy flash game-style project that will take them 3 months to make, and then make them a ton of money on release via microtransactions after that.
Well, the name is clearly a riff on the incredibly popular 'words with friends' game, so I wouldn't give them grief for that personally.
But the really sad part to me is that the premise of creating a faux digital miniature game online could be really cool I think.
Just imagine this:
You launch the game and for free you're given enough virtual coins to buy say 500 points of models for a 40K army (obviously it wouldn't be 40K, it would be their own unique game, but I'll use 40K as the example because we all understand it).
Now, just like real 40K you have a choice of a bunch of factions and way more model choices than you can actually fit in your 500 point army. You look through all the factions, pick one and 'buy' enough models to play your first game...and no worries if you screw up on your first selections, you can always reset your profile and start over again from scratch if you'd like.
After that you jump right into your first game or even tons of games against your friends. The games are asynchronous, so you can play a bunch of games at the same time. If you lose a game, you get a few virtual coins. If you win a game, you get even more virtual coins. After each game your ranking also goes up or down depending on whether you won or lost vs. your opponent's ranking. So if you ended up playing against a really tough opponent, even though you lost you'd get a few extra coins because of the difficulty and conversely if your ranking was way ahead of your opponents a victory would net you less coins.
You could then use these coins to buy upgrades for your models (like a plasma gun, for example) or even entirely new models...and naturally playing higher point games will net you additional coins, so you have incentive to 'earn' bigger armies.
And on top of all of that, real world money can be spent to purchase the virtual coins for people who just want to skip ahead and buy all the models and upgrades they want without earning the virtual currency.
Honestly, I think a game like that could be really, really awesome if the actual strategy game you're playing with the virtual 'models' was awesome as well. In fact, I kind of already play a game sort of like this on iOS called 'Battle Nations', but its really just like a farmville spinoff where the actual battles pretty much sucks and most of the 'earning' comes from a version of farming instead of just playing games.
Therefore I believe this is a big missed opportunity...if the actual gameplay was intriguing and the factions were well balanced and varied then I think a system where you have to purchase your army over time just like a real mini game could be very engrossing.
Well, the name is clearly a riff on the incredibly popular 'words with friends' game, so I wouldn't give them grief for that personally.
But the really sad part to me is that the premise of creating a faux digital miniature game online could be really cool I think.
Just imagine this:
You launch the game and for free you're given enough virtual coins to buy say 500 points of models for a 40K army (obviously it wouldn't be 40K, it would be their own unique game, but I'll use 40K as the example because we all understand it).
Now, just like real 40K you have a choice of a bunch of factions and way more model choices than you can actually fit in your 500 point army. You look through all the factions, pick one and 'buy' enough models to play your first game...and no worries if you screw up on your first selections, you can always reset your profile and start over again from scratch if you'd like.
After that you jump right into your first game or even tons of games against your friends. The games are asynchronous, so you can play a bunch of games at the same time. If you lose a game, you get a few virtual coins. If you win a game, you get even more virtual coins. After each game your ranking also goes up or down depending on whether you won or lost vs. your opponent's ranking. So if you ended up playing against a really tough opponent, even though you lost you'd get a few extra coins because of the difficulty and conversely if your ranking was way ahead of your opponents a victory would net you less coins.
You could then use these coins to buy upgrades for your models (like a plasma gun, for example) or even entirely new models...and naturally playing higher point games will net you additional coins, so you have incentive to 'earn' bigger armies.
And on top of all of that, real world money can be spent to purchase the virtual coins for people who just want to skip ahead and buy all the models and upgrades they want without earning the virtual currency.
Honestly, I think a game like that could be really, really awesome if the actual strategy game you're playing with the virtual 'models' was awesome as well. In fact, I kind of already play a game sort of like this on iOS called 'Battle Nations', but its really just like a farmville spinoff where the actual battles pretty much sucks and most of the 'earning' comes from a version of farming instead of just playing games.
Therefore I believe this is a big missed opportunity...if the actual gameplay was intriguing and the factions were well balanced and varied then I think a system where you have to purchase your army over time just like a real mini game could be very engrossing.
Might as well spend your money on magic beans, nothing will come of this. They claim to have worked on pretty much every major game for every major company, but their only products are a Samuel L Jackson soundboard app, a facebook game (with an under construction official website) and an online game that's died a death. It may or may not be a scam, but it's ringing all the alarm bells.
Cadaver wrote:
You're right these guys did not create all the games listed on their resumes as Heatwave Interactive, but they did participate in the development at some point in their career. And they do have their own games: http://heatwave.com/products.php So they've hardly created nothing.
Yeah, one of those is unreleased, one is a refurbed game someone else made, and one is isamulejackson which I'm not even going to dignify with a response.
These aren't the guys that made something pretty amazing (ex. spring http://springrts.com/ I helped with, do I claim I "made?" hell no) they pooped out one torque-cut and paste job with a transaction model and an app you can make sam jackson say things about mfking planes with.
That does not increase my confidence.
If this was like 30, 40, 50k I can see one passionate programmer putting a cool vassel-like thing together which I could play with my phone, that would be cool.
Ten times that? Is ridiculous. DOUBLE FINE ADVENTURE asked for 400,000 and they have an entire, established studio that has put out multiple awesome games. Handing out that kind of cash to what amount to pretty much nobody, without any proof of concept, is just a bad move. I mean this thing looks to me like they had an idea one afternoon, made a few videos, made a banner and started the kickstarter.
Superscope wrote:That kills the idea of a good game right there.. It's pay to win. most pay to win games go down hill in terms of balance very quickly.
I think they said you'd be able to also purchase stuff with in-game currency that you build up after playing the game, which would be totally fine with me personally if they didn't have blind purchase involved.
If you look though, only the platinum pack ensures you don't get a bunch of commons. And of course, the platinum pack can only be purchased with money. =)
Cadaver wrote:
You're right these guys did not create all the games listed on their resumes as Heatwave Interactive, but they did participate in the development at some point in their career. And they do have their own games: http://heatwave.com/products.php So they've hardly created nothing.
I understand they claim to have worked on these projects but does that mean they were lead programers or am I looking at 2 guys who made coffee and another guy who got donuts? It is pretty easy to say I worked on something but what exactly did they do? Besides their other games look pretty crappy.
The common denominator in playing mini-based games is your interacting with a real person. face to face. Usually a freind. Drinking a beer/soda or 6, pizza, chit chat, game play...all of that human interaction.
This game plan bypasses that interaction and just drops you into the system itself.
Thats why I don't play WoW, EverCrack, or any other MMO (this game system being just another form)...ultimately your still just sitting in your underwear in your mothers basement playing with a keyboard and a screen.
I wouldn't mind the randomness as much, if the packs were, at least, targeted.
I mean, if I plan on being a DM for a group, maybe I don't want to risk getting a bunch of halflings and a half orc. Let me buy a "Goblin pack" that contains, if not ALL Goblins, at least goblinoids. Let me buy an undead pack, a drow pack, etc. This way, I can have a CHANCE to get something I need to populate my dungeon with. If I'm creating "Assault on the goblin warrens," I don't want to have to buy 500 packs in hopes of getting together 50 or 60 goblin troops.
Another interesting observation; The "miniatures" in these packs come unpainted. Will you HAVE to paint them before playing with them? If not, how soon until we see a rise of people criticizing you and refusing to play you with your gray, unpainted digi-models?
Grundz wrote:Yeah, one of those is unreleased, one is a refurbed game someone else made, and one is isamulejackson which I'm not even going to dignify with a response.
The fact is you said they created nothing. I was simply pointed out they have made games, I'm not concerned about the quality of those games in this context. If you are going to make claims about anyone that they are either a fly-by-night con artist or completely unqualified for the venture they are pursuing, have something to back that up. Otherwise you are making unfounded accusations, and I'm going to call you on that.
Just for the record, I'm not backing this project. It's not something I see myself using with any regularity. I just thought it might be of interest to members here, so I shared it.
brettz123 wrote:
Cadaver wrote:
You're right these guys did not create all the games listed on their resumes as Heatwave Interactive, but they did participate in the development at some point in their career. And they do have their own games: http://heatwave.com/products.php So they've hardly created nothing.
I understand they claim to have worked on these projects but does that mean they were lead programers or am I looking at 2 guys who made coffee and another guy who got donuts? It is pretty easy to say I worked on something but what exactly did they do? Besides their other games look pretty crappy.
It is a good thing to as these types of questions when considering investing in a Kickstarter. My point was this info can be found with quick search of their website.
Cadaver wrote:
You're right these guys did not create all the games listed on their resumes as Heatwave Interactive, but they did participate in the development at some point in their career. And they do have their own games: http://heatwave.com/products.php So they've hardly created nothing.
I understand they claim to have worked on these projects but does that mean they were lead programers or am I looking at 2 guys who made coffee and another guy who got donuts? It is pretty easy to say I worked on something but what exactly did they do? Besides their other games look pretty crappy.
It is a good thing to as these types of questions when considering investing in a Kickstarter. My point was this info can be found with quick search of their website.
These are questions they should answer without people having to look at their website. Most customers are going to make up their mind based on the video and what is on the kickstarter page. They usually do not have the inclination to root around webpages.
Hey folks. Anthony Castoro here from Heatwave. You guys were the first to raise a lot of the questions we've seen, particularly in minatures and wargaming communities. I've got lots of answers, much of which will go up on our kickstarter on Monday, but FIRST I want to make sure that it's cool for me to post here? I know I'm not part of the community by default. Let me know and I'd be happy to provide more info.
Cadaver wrote:
You're right these guys did not create all the games listed on their resumes as Heatwave Interactive, but they did participate in the development at some point in their career. And they do have their own games: http://heatwave.com/products.php So they've hardly created nothing.
I understand they claim to have worked on these projects but does that mean they were lead programers or am I looking at 2 guys who made coffee and another guy who got donuts? It is pretty easy to say I worked on something but what exactly did they do? Besides their other games look pretty crappy.
It is a good thing to as these types of questions when considering investing in a Kickstarter. My point was this info can be found with quick search of their website.
These are questions they should answer without people having to look at their website. Most customers are going to make up their mind based on the video and what is on the kickstarter page. They usually do not have the inclination to root around webpages.
They do have their qualifications and the companies they worked for on the Kickstarter page. You wanted to know specifically what they did at each of those companies and their website lists that. Most Kickstarters I don't believe have the entire resume of the individuals listed there. All that said, if you aren't comfortable with their Kickstarter page providing enough information to make you confident in donating, then don't donate. It is on them to sell the idea to backers.
All I'm saying is their professional experience is provided, and for those who require a deeper understanding of that experience two clicks on their website will get you there. I'm calling out people who jump to calling them fakes, scammers and say they're actual game developers without a shred of proof to back up those claims. In fact, they are easily disproven with the slightest amount of research. Maybe I'm just less skeptical that most, but it seems a large number of people jump to the assumption Kickstarters are scams. If you don't like it don't donate, we don't need to call the guys thieves or con men in the process.
SunSword wrote:FIRST I want to make sure that it's cool for me to post here? I know I'm not part of the community by default. Let me know and I'd be happy to provide more info.
Yeah, it's cool. There are more than a few game developers who post here about their products, so there's no reason to object to one more.
SunSword wrote:Hey folks. Anthony Castoro here from Heatwave. You guys were the first to raise a lot of the questions we've seen, particularly in minatures and wargaming communities. I've got lots of answers, much of which will go up on our kickstarter on Monday, but FIRST I want to make sure that it's cool for me to post here? I know I'm not part of the community by default. Let me know and I'd be happy to provide more info.
You joined, dude... You're part of the community, now! LOL
PLEASE, post here. Many of us would love to see/hear what you've got to say. As for myself, you've got a CHANCE to sway me into a market that typically holds NO interest for me; video games. So, do a good job. LOL
Cadaver wrote:
They do have their qualifications and the companies they worked for on the Kickstarter page. You wanted to know specifically what they did at each of those companies and their website lists that. Most Kickstarters I don't believe have the entire resume of the individuals listed there. All that said, if you aren't comfortable with their Kickstarter page providing enough information to make you confident in donating, then don't donate. It is on them to sell the idea to backers.
My point is if you are a person without a known name / reputation it is foolish to not be VERY up front about what you have done. My guess is I am not the only one who is put off not only by the idea but also the feeling of "who?". Most kickstarters that are successful in the gaming section either have people who are well known (OGRE, zombiecide, battle for alabaster, wasteland 2, etc... etc...) or have some kind of already put together project for you to look at and judge the merits of the project on. So it really would help to say what they have done in the past and how they fit into it.
Cadaver wrote:
All I'm saying is their professional experience is provided, and for those who require a deeper understanding of that experience two clicks on their website will get you there. I'm calling out people who jump to calling them fakes, scammers and say they're actual game developers without a shred of proof to back up those claims. In fact, they are easily disproven with the slightest amount of research. Maybe I'm just less skeptical that most, but it seems a large number of people jump to the assumption Kickstarters are scams. If you don't like it don't donate, we don't need to call the guys thieves or con men in the process.
Most people will want a little more info about these people and they should have understood that before posting their kickstarter. But your point is well taken. There is no reason to suggest these people are scamming anyone (and I in no way suggested they were). My point was solely that they need to show up front that they have the experience to make this a reality.
SunSword wrote:FIRST I want to make sure that it's cool for me to post here? I know I'm not part of the community by default. Let me know and I'd be happy to provide more info.
Yeah, it's cool. There are more than a few game developers who post here about their products, so there's no reason to object to one more.
Great, thanks.
So, I suppose there are three big topics. I'll do short-answers first and then long answers so you can stop reading before it's TLDR.
Short Answers:
A) Who is Heatwave and is this a scam?
Heatwave has been around since 2007. We are backed by a well established VC firm and staffed by game industry professionals. No, this is not a scam.
B) WTF is this game really all about? (followed by a variety of opinions, ideas, suggestions and derision)
The team had an idea to make a digital game based on MINIs, in some ways inspired by Words with Friends and Drawsomething. Specifically, the Lead Designer wanted to create a cross platform toolset for playing round-robin tactical combat that didn't require everyone to be logged on or in the same place, at the same time. A hi-res version of play-by-email. It's an original game, and they're currently designing a High Fantasy setting for the first release.
C) $300k? Couldn't this be done for 5 nickles and a case of mountain dew?
Yes. No.
Stop reading now if that's all you need to know.
===================================
Long answers:
A) Who is Heatwave and is this a scam
The core team has a ton of experience making games, all of the ones listed on the site are projects where the member was a significant contributor (whether Designer, Producer, Programmer, etc...). A google, linkedin or mobygames search will give you plenty of info on that. I co-founded the company in 2007 on the concept of building large online games that were funded through private equity and other forms of investment, rather than through the classic Publisher/Developer relationship, which in my experience has often been destructive. I've been the Publisher and I've been the Developer, and I've never liked it. For the first year, we bootstrapped the company doing consulting work for MTV and Icarus Studios, but we quickly realized that we were so busy working for other people, we couldn't make any progress on our own projects. So my partner and I went out and raised Venture Capital to the tune of $7.5M. The purpose of that money was to build the studio's core talent and seed a basket of projects to raise a more significant round of capital (more like $75-100 million) to finance the games. Unfortunately, this all happened in 2008 and private equity evaporated along with most other liquid forms of capital for risky ventures like mine.
So, we took what resources we had and have fought through the past 4 years of recession and massive upheaval in the game industry (social games) and managed to stay alive. Along the way, we've gotten to work with some pretty cool talent and celebrity which we'll continue to bring to our projects. We bought Gods & Heroes out of effective bankruptcy and despite exceptionally difficult circumstances managed to launch it about this time last year. It failed. That's the risky part I mentioned earlier. I could get into the why's, but you guys probably don't care that much. Suffice to say it was exceptionally painful and even though we're still looking for a way to improve it, we've had to move on.
In fall of last year, we launched a new division of the company doing work-for-hire, called Ignite. Ignite is doing pretty well for us, we have several clients who keep giving us business and we're getting to work on MMOs, kids games, government portals, and mobile applications.
So a month ago the management team came to me and said they really wanted to hold an internal competition to see who had the best idea for a kickstarter project, something everyone could be excited about and that someone else wasn't already doing. We had lots of great pitches, but MINIs with Enemies won out. So here we are. We've got a lot of Unity expertise and we've built a great backend toolset for running cross-platform games.
B) Is this a good idea or not (and in some cases, WTF is this game idea really?)
Well, obviously we think it's a cool idea, but we're not doign the best job of communicating it, so we're working to improve it. A few topics:
1) Collectable? There's been a lot of feedback on this particular topic. Essentially, we have to monetize by either charging for it all up front, or having a low barrier to entry with an up-sell. Honestly, I don't care either way, and I think the team is open to either. With regards to randomness, we all agree that you should be able to specifically purchase any asset that you want. The "blister" pack concept is a way of purchasing a set of things without having to get specific if you don't want to.
2) Wargame or tactical game? The first release of this game will be a tactical game. The technology we're building can absolutely be modified to support larger scales, but that's not the initial thrust of the game. Personally, I like bigger armies, but it's not my idea, so I'll have to wait .
3) Why is digital even a good idea? I think there are a lot of us who struggle to get the time to play physical games together because of where we are in life. It would be awesome if I could have 6 games of MwE going on my phone or iPad all the time and I just take a turn when I have a minute. Not trying to replace real tabletop gaming.
C) $300k? Couldn't this be done for 5 nickles and a case of mountain dew?
$300k on kickstarter turns into $275k almost instantly. $275k turns into $225k when the taxman comes around. $225k turns into $200k pretty quickly after you factor the cost the rewards plus the pro video and miscellaneous. Keep in mind, this is a hi-res game for PC, so we're doing MINI models whose base hi-res models have oh, say 6,000,000 polys. Obviously that all gets crunched down to something in the thousands at real time, but this is all hi-end work. But just one mini could easily cost $1,000 to sculpt, pose and texture. So the art budget is significant, plus you've got a few programmers (client, backend, game logic), designers, producer, testers, etc...
Sure, one guy in the closet could make a turn-based prototype pretty quickly. But to make something with professional quality, that supports transactions, hi-end art, and is client-server... it's just not as cheap as you might think. I suppose we could have asked for less and hoped to reach the $300k mark, but honestly, we should raise $300k if we’re going to do the project. So that’s what we’re asking for.
I hope I’ve answered a lot of your questions. I’m sure I missed some. Interested to hear your feedback.
My problem is, if it is indeed easy to whip up a prototype, why didn't you do so to pitch this? Right now, it's just a logo and text.
Perhaps there's still time for you to do so? People don't need to see high res to grasp the concept, but text and a logo just can't convey this concept.
Thanks for posting here, by the way! If nothing else, you certainly have folks' attention
Such a confused message and poor choice of words - I mean the rewards talk about Platinum Boxed Mini Pack... Boxed? Pack? It's a selection of pixels that I have to colour in!
A Tabletop miniatures game without the tabletop or the miniatures, and no word on how the game will look or how the miniatures will look - i'm not going to pay for them to use my creativity because they've not bothered to fully think through the idea!
RiTides wrote:My problem is, if it is indeed easy to whip up a prototype, why didn't you do so to pitch this? Right now, it's just a logo and text.
Perhaps there's still time for you to do so? People don't need to see high res to grasp the concept, but text and a logo just can't convey this concept.
Thanks for posting here, by the way! If nothing else, you certainly have folks' attention
We're actually going to be posting some material next week that is more representative of what the game will look like.
We didn't do a prototype for the launch because we didn't feel it would be visually compelling and could have turned people off. Admittedly, that may have been a mistake, but that's the reasoning we did it the way we did.
You guys are the core group of people who would "get it," so I consider it time well spent!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AlexHolker wrote:
SunSword wrote:With regards to randomness, we all agree that you should be able to specifically purchase any asset that you want.
Does this mean you'll let people choose which 4 units they get to start with, of the 20 commons?
I don't see why not, the whole point of having the discussion is to figure out what people want.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
WarMill wrote:How much of the $7.5 million went on the Samuel L Jackson soundboard?
Not something I would normally disclose, but my curiosity is piqued. Why do you ask?
Black Nexus wrote:Such a confused message and poor choice of words - I mean the rewards talk about Platinum Boxed Mini Pack... Boxed? Pack? It's a selection of pixels that I have to colour in!
A Tabletop miniatures game without the tabletop or the miniatures, and no word on how the game will look or how the miniatures will look - i'm not going to pay for them to use my creativity because they've not bothered to fully think through the idea!
Pass.
On one hand this game reminds me of Exillis, which thankfully failed....
On the other hand this reminds me of Vassal, which is free and fairly well established....
While you have a video and a logo you come to the table with little else but.... "Hey were people who have worked with stuff before give us your money so that we can make this thing that one of us came up with that apparently no one wants..." You really need to do soemthing to convince me that its something I want to be involved with. Until you do that I'll go throw my money at the likes of Sedition Wars and Mantic.
Any thought of licensing the IP of an established miniatures game? Not saying Warhammer, but there are a number of games out there now with established fanbases.
SunSword wrote:So a month ago the management team came to me and said they really wanted to hold an internal competition to see who had the best idea for a kickstarter project, something everyone could be excited about and that someone else wasn't already doing. We had lots of great pitches, but MINIs with Enemies won out. So here we are. We've got a lot of Unity expertise and we've built a great backend toolset for running cross-platform games.
sorry to rehash this from earlier in the topic, but are you REALLY sure you want to go with a name like that? I mean, it suddenly makes a world of sense to me, for an internal pitch. For a product title (and with kickstarter taking off the way it has, you'll have to treat your pitch as such in many ways), are you really sure it's a good idea?
First off I would like to thank you for making an effort to not only answer questions, but to be truthful with them. It was when you mentioned the need to successfully monetize a project I figured we weren't going to see much wriggling from you, and that's appreciated.
I'd like to address a few things.
1) I can't imagine that the idea behind Kickstarter is for a company with venture and investment capital to get in and get some of that free money thats out there. Being told by management to pitch an idea that could probably be profitable over KS seems to fly in the face of a funding medium set up to help people without corporate backing get an idea for a project (not a business.. thats explicitly against KS rules) off the ground.
2) I'm glad you have decided to be more clear in the direction of your game. A lot of people who donate seeing all the 40k images would be pretty dissapointed to find out they arent getting a program like Vassal with free community updates supporting their game of choice, but a hero-clix-esque random character system with it's only immediate programming being set for a High Fantasy campaign. I'm not saying you were being intentionally misleading, but you were misleading in my opinion.
3) Rather than the blister pack option, which I absolutely despise, perhaps you could model yourself a little more in the realm of League of Legends? They offer a rotation of free weekly characters and special discount on characters each week. People will play with a freebie and if they like them, they will purchase their favorites. It's stupid how much money I spent on that free to play game over the years.. =(
4) Your game system. Are all the mini's blank slates in terms of abilities or does Mike the Minotaur always have 10 STR, 8 TGH, and 2 INT? If the latter is the truth, the program isn't really useful in terms of running a pen and paper RPG with pals unless you have all sorts of ancilleries that could support it. That's fine if the game is its own animal, but again, your being misleading by hinting people can run their own game campains using your online tabletop. .. (Because it really isnt an online table-top open for gaming, it's your own IP game on which your game can be played.)
5) This isn't so much to Anthony, but everyone else. Stop comparing this to a tabletop miniatures game played on the internet, as I think that's going to wind up being pretty innacurate. Whether intentionally or not, that does seem how it was advertised for a second there. Think of it more as Neopets or Dota turned into a turn by turn strategy game, if I understand Anthonys vision, which is admittedly a little bit blurry.
dkellyj wrote:The common denominator in playing mini-based games is your interacting with a real person. face to face. Usually a freind. Drinking a beer/soda or 6, pizza, chit chat, game play...all of that human interaction.
SunSword wrote:So a month ago the management team came to me and said they really wanted to hold an internal competition to see who had the best idea for a kickstarter project, something everyone could be excited about and that someone else wasn't already doing. We had lots of great pitches, but MINIs with Enemies won out. So here we are. We've got a lot of Unity expertise and we've built a great backend toolset for running cross-platform games.
sorry to rehash this from earlier in the topic, but are you REALLY sure you want to go with a name like that? I mean, it suddenly makes a world of sense to me, for an internal pitch. For a product title (and with kickstarter taking off the way it has, you'll have to treat your pitch as such in many ways), are you really sure it's a good idea?
Now he didnt make nearly as much as you are looking for, and had some cool physical stuff, and has some clout in wargaming, but bear with me.
Just watch the video,
We dont need a pro video, this is just one dude who we sort of know, rambling on about his plans with some long screens of some artwork.
Thats it, we don't need pro-video with fancy starwipes and great resolution, we want a better idea of what you are selling here. As you can see from many of the comments, it's a little confusing. Even someone minimally involved could make up a powerpoint that could plug all this stuff together.
I've done 3d modeling/dev, not with modern tools mind you, this was back when you had to do individual vertex animations and try to make things not look like jelly men, and even then I'd be hard pressed to put $1000 worth of work into something. Nobody wants poser models chunked down to usable size for seemingly no reason, thats just a waste of effort and money.
Places that I've worked with, in their SDLC, Do some sort of pre-production, then the pitch, and man its hard to put money on the table when you have no idea what you're buying.
First off I would like to thank you for making an effort to not only answer questions, but to be truthful with them. It was when you mentioned the need to successfully monetize a project I figured we weren't going to see much wriggling from you, and that's appreciated.
You bet. That's how I operate. I'm going to respond to most of your points because they are generally well constructed, but to keep the conversation civil, I'm going to ignore some of the more obvious insults and intentional backhanded compliments.
I'd like to address a few things.
1) I can't imagine that the idea behind Kickstarter is for a company with venture and investment capital to get in and get some of that free money thats out there.
There's nothing wrong with your imagination, Kickstarter is about funding projects, which is what we're doing. My point in talking about the history of the company was to alleviate people's fears that this was a fly-by-night operation, a scam, or being done by amateurs. Being VC backed in no way means we have an endless supply of operating capital, or even a substantial surplus. The project is going to cost far more than $300k to launch, but without substantial interest shown by an audience on a site like Kickstarter, it would be foolish for us to build it. Your concern about KS is invalid, otherwise companies like Double Fine wouldn't be able to get their projects funded. Kickstarter is a way of mating creative projects with interested patronage. For more info see: http://www.kickstarter.com/start and http://www.kickstarter.com/help/guidelines.
Being told by management to pitch an idea that could probably be profitable over KS seems to fly in the face of a funding medium set up to help people without corporate backing get an idea for a project (not a business.. thats explicitly against KS rules) off the ground.
You must've mis-understood what I wrote in my original post. The team came to me and asked me to allow them to pitch for kickstarter, not the other way around. Kickstarter is for projects, yes, but it doesn't not prevent companies from pitching them (see above links for more information).
2) I'm glad you have decided to be more clear in the direction of your game. A lot of people who donate seeing all the 40k images would be pretty dissapointed to find out they arent getting a program like Vassal with free community updates supporting their game of choice, but a hero-clix-esque random character system with it's only immediate programming being set for a High Fantasy campaign. I'm not saying you were being intentionally misleading, but you were misleading in my opinion.
I think we were pretty explicit about the for-pay aspect of the game in the original pitch, so your innuendo that we might have fooled people into backing a game that would have free community updates is unnecessary. Unfortunately, our filmmaker was only available for a short period of time before he went out of town, and Dragon's Lair was hosting one of it's MINIs gaming nights during that period. Unshockingly, most people were playing 40k and that's a lot of what he filmed. We should've done a better job of clarifying the launch genre.
3) Rather than the blister pack option, which I absolutely despise, perhaps you could model yourself a little more in the realm of League of Legends? They offer a rotation of free weekly characters and special discount on characters each week. People will play with a freebie and if they like them, they will purchase their favorites. It's stupid how much money I spent on that free to play game over the years.. =(
Great suggestion!
4) Your game system. Are all the mini's blank slates in terms of abilities or does Mike the Minotaur always have 10 STR, 8 TGH, and 2 INT? If the latter is the truth, the program isn't really useful in terms of running a pen and paper RPG with pals unless you have all sorts of ancilleries that could support it. That's fine if the game is its own animal, but again, your being misleading by hinting people can run their own game campains using your online tabletop. .. (Because it really isnt an online table-top open for gaming, it's your own IP game on which your game can be played.)
The short answer is that it is a MINI-style game, not an RPG. So the MINIs have fixed character sheets. People can build their own dungeons/scenarios/campaigns, but it isn't an RPG system. In other words, a GM can make rooms, populate them with enemy MINIs, traps and objectives and then have other players play through. There's been some discussion of allowing other kinds of events like dialogue, but I think the team is currently steering away from a story-telling RPG feel. I don't think we ever suggested that people could use it to play other games.
5) This isn't so much to Anthony, but everyone else. Stop comparing this to a tabletop miniatures game played on the internet, as I think that's going to wind up being pretty innacurate. Whether intentionally or not, that does seem how it was advertised for a second there. Think of it more as Neopets or Dota turned into a turn by turn strategy game, if I understand Anthonys vision, which is admittedly a little bit blurry.
Neopets. Nice.
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Grundz wrote:Hey dude, I'm one of the people griping on the previous pages.
Now he didnt make nearly as much as you are looking for, and had some cool physical stuff, and has some clout in wargaming, but bear with me.
Just watch the video,
We dont need a pro video, this is just one dude who we sort of know, rambling on about his plans with some long screens of some artwork.
Thats it, we don't need pro-video with fancy starwipes and great resolution, we want a better idea of what you are selling here. As you can see from many of the comments, it's a little confusing. Even someone minimally involved could make up a powerpoint that could plug all this stuff together.
I've done 3d modeling/dev, not with modern tools mind you, this was back when you had to do individual vertex animations and try to make things not look like jelly men, and even then I'd be hard pressed to put $1000 worth of work into something. Nobody wants poser models chunked down to usable size for seemingly no reason, thats just a waste of effort and money.
Places that I've worked with, in their SDLC, Do some sort of pre-production, then the pitch, and man its hard to put money on the table when you have no idea what you're buying.
I hear you. That's a great link, I hadn't seen that one. We'll do a better job of communicating the idea next week. The guys just posted a new quick video with a bit more info http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/heatwave/minis-with-enemies-taking-tabletop-mini-gaming-dig-0/posts. If you're still interested enough to give it a look next week when we start posting artwork and some prototypes, great. If not, it's all on us. I appreciate the input for sure.
First off I would like to thank you for making an effort to not only answer questions, but to be truthful with them. It was when you mentioned the need to successfully monetize a project I figured we weren't going to see much wriggling from you, and that's appreciated.
You bet. That's how I operate. I'm going to respond to most of your points because they are generally well constructed, but to keep the conversation civil, I'm going to ignore some of the more obvious insults and intentional backhanded compliments.
Anthony,
Thanks for taking the time to post! And yeah, I agree the best policy is always to address those who take the time to give criticism constructively and simply ignore those who do not.
Your 2nd video helps a GREAT DEAL towards actually letting us know what the game itself actually will be a bit like, and I almost think you should consider re-editing the original piece to get some of this information in there. The reason I say this is because the original video spends much of the time talking about the look, feel and positive nature of tabletop miniature games and shows dozens of images of people playing traditional tabletop miniature games like 40K, warmachine, DUST Warfare, etc, however unfortunately your game does not sound to emulate those types of experiences at all...it sounds more like a digital version of the Descent Boardgame, but with collectible virtual miniatures.
There's nothing wrong with putting out a digital version of Descent with collectible virtual miniatures, but that is not the product your original video seems to indicate you will be producing. That sort of incongruity between the original message and the follow-up video will most certainly lead to the more pessimistic amongst us to thinking that perhaps some sort of bait-and-switch attempt is being made, which can never be good for a kickstarter campaign that relies heavily upon the implicit trust of potential backers.
In fact, I'd personally guess that if you guys hope to have any chance of meeting your goal you would need to pull your original video immediately and get a new video up that very, very clearly explains what the game will actually look and play like...but that's just my take, of course!
----
When it comes to me pledging or not, sadly the revelation about what type of game it will be definitely means it is something I would not back, simply because its not a style of game that's in my wheelhouse of interest.
However, were I actually interested in that style of game, I still would be incredibly hesitant about pledging without seeing any visual representation of what the game will look like and/or a very clear indication of how the game would actually play. That's really just the nature of video game kickstarters (or any kickstarter in general). Without any art assets or gaemplay examples, there's no way I would consider backing the project even if I was in love with the concept just because even the best concept can end up being poorly implemented.
So while I won't personally be backing you, I do wish you guys the best in producing a great game. And if you ever do want to make a game in a similar genre that someone like me would be interested in, it would be something like this:
Thanks for hitting all my points from my previous post. Adding this to your video I feel like it's a pretty cool concept altogether, where originally I didn't think it was worth looking into.
I think your model could work after all, although I'm just a guy on the internet. I'm waffling at the 75$ contribution level. I can imagine it would be pretty neat to be able to have my tablet buzz me to take a turn at whackin monsters with spells or swords instead of trying to squeeze the word jorgmunifter into a triple letter space. The fact the updates roll to all my devices is pretty neat too.
So.. a few more questions!
1) Are there going to be different graphical standards across platforms? I can imagine a game dumbed down enough for my Droid or iphone is probably going to look pretty dated on my super pc. Vice versa, and the weaker hardware cannot handle it.
2) This won't apply to me if I donate at the 75 bucks range, but will others coming in later have to buy MwE for every platform they own? Or is getting it once enough?
3) ( A wild question appears!)
What is the estimated price of this game? If it's got all the features Im seeing for around 15$ (The lowest pledge to get the system on all platforms) then this is actually a good deal.
I realize that your revenue will come mostly from micro purchases, but honestly people who can stick to the f2p format seem to be getting a good deal of content for their money at 15 dollars.
Wow... that's actually a very informative video. And I like the sound of it. The downside is that I have a windows phone which I'm pretty sure wouldn't be one of the devices supported.
I agree with perhaps editing that information into the original video or the like. But mobile, turn-based, words with friends with miniatures would be... pretty great, imo.
Not sure why that was so hard to convey to start but live and learn!
I hope you guys may decide to do something with it even if you don't reach the (rather ambitious) kickstarter goal. Someone linked to Dark Potential's indiegogo above, but I actually found that to be the exception, rather than the rule, in that they did not have ENOUGH initial content to really generate as much funding as they could have. They did, however, have a very recognizable name to tabletop wargamers, which carried them pretty far (and they put out more content as they went along with the campaign... but surprisingly, started with just a few pieces of artwork, and could have gotten a lot more if they'd been better prepared, imo).
I am also curious if you are the bearded or sans-bearded speaker not that you have to reveal that, of course (and perhaps you're neither).
Anyway, greatly appreciate your clarifying, and I would actually be very likely to purchase a game like what your second video describes, if it were available for one of my devices (perhaps even PC, although since it's turn-based, I wouldn't really be able to make use of it in a word with friends fashion).
First off I would like to thank you for making an effort to not only answer questions, but to be truthful with them. It was when you mentioned the need to successfully monetize a project I figured we weren't going to see much wriggling from you, and that's appreciated.
You bet. That's how I operate. I'm going to respond to most of your points because they are generally well constructed, but to keep the conversation civil, I'm going to ignore some of the more obvious insults and intentional backhanded compliments.
Anthony,
Thanks for taking the time to post! And yeah, I agree the best policy is always to address those who take the time to give criticism constructively and simply ignore those who do not.
Your 2nd video helps a GREAT DEAL towards actually letting us know what the game itself actually will be a bit like, and I almost think you should consider re-editing the original piece to get some of this information in there. The reason I say this is because the original video spends much of the time talking about the look, feel and positive nature of tabletop miniature games and shows dozens of images of people playing traditional tabletop miniature games like 40K, warmachine, DUST Warfare, etc, however unfortunately your game does not sound to emulate those types of experiences at all...it sounds more like a digital version of the Descent Boardgame, but with collectible virtual miniatures.
There's nothing wrong with putting out a digital version of Descent with collectible virtual miniatures, but that is not the product your original video seems to indicate you will be producing. That sort of incongruity between the original message and the follow-up video will most certainly lead to the more pessimistic amongst us to thinking that perhaps some sort of bait-and-switch attempt is being made, which can never be good for a kickstarter campaign that relies heavily upon the implicit trust of potential backers.
In fact, I'd personally guess that if you guys hope to have any chance of meeting your goal you would need to pull your original video immediately and get a new video up that very, very clearly explains what the game will actually look and play like...but that's just my take, of course!
----
When it comes to me pledging or not, sadly the revelation about what type of game it will be definitely means it is something I would not back, simply because its not a style of game that's in my wheelhouse of interest.
However, were I actually interested in that style of game, I still would be incredibly hesitant about pledging without seeing any visual representation of what the game will look like and/or a very clear indication of how the game would actually play. That's really just the nature of video game kickstarters (or any kickstarter in general). Without any art assets or gaemplay examples, there's no way I would consider backing the project even if I was in love with the concept just because even the best concept can end up being poorly implemented.
So while I won't personally be backing you, I do wish you guys the best in producing a great game. And if you ever do want to make a game in a similar genre that someone like me would be interested in, it would be something like this:
Anyway, thanks again for taking the time to post here, and best of luck!
I think the Descent allusion is a good one. We considered using it, but were worried video game people would confuse it with the classic 6-axis space shooter. Thanks for the feedback and good questions. I've got a meeting first thing Monday with the team to re-edit the video and provide even more info. We've already got some additional updates ready to go so lots of stuff will follow on immediately.
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Thunderfrog wrote:Hey Anthony,
Thanks for hitting all my points from my previous post. Adding this to your video I feel like it's a pretty cool concept altogether, where originally I didn't think it was worth looking into.
Obviously, that's excellent news for us!
I think your model could work after all, although I'm just a guy on the internet. I'm waffling at the 75$ contribution level. I can imagine it would be pretty neat to be able to have my tablet buzz me to take a turn at whackin monsters with spells or swords instead of trying to squeeze the word jorgmunifter into a triple letter space. The fact the updates roll to all my devices is pretty neat too.
So.. a few more questions!
1) Are there going to be different graphical standards across platforms? I can imagine a game dumbed down enough for my Droid or iphone is probably going to look pretty dated on my super pc. Vice versa, and the weaker hardware cannot handle it.
Yes, the reason the art will be hi-res is so that it can be down-res'd for the mobile platforms.
2) This won't apply to me if I donate at the 75 bucks range, but will others coming in later have to buy MwE for every platform they own? Or is getting it once enough?
The purchase will get you the desktop version (PC or Mac) with the full set of tools for customizing dungeons and your minis. We're currently considering making it free on mobile devices, but that limits you to playing with the first 4 minis that you get/choose. Once you purchase the full version, all of your stuff will be accessible on any platform.
3) ( A wild question appears!)
What is the estimated price of this game? If it's got all the features Im seeing for around 15$ (The lowest pledge to get the system on all platforms) then this is actually a good deal.
I realize that your revenue will come mostly from micro purchases, but honestly people who can stick to the f2p format seem to be getting a good deal of content for their money at 15 dollars.
Good question! That's still under discussion. I've seen $19.99 thrown around, but we haven't finalized any pricing yet. Maybe we'd be better off charging $60 and you can get everything by just playing with no micro payments? Probably not, but it's something we'll have to discuss.
4) Will there be a single-player mode?
Yes, we're currently planning the following modes:
* Single player (control up to 4 minis through the campaign)
* Co-op (up to 4 players through the campaign)
* Gamemaster (4 players vs 1GM controlling monsters)
* PvP (1-on-1 or 2-on-2)
Wow... that's actually a very informative video. And I like the sound of it. The downside is that I have a windows phone which I'm pretty sure wouldn't be one of the devices supported.
Unfortunately, the Unity platform is skipping the Windows Phone 7. Not sure what their plans are for Windows 8. On the bright side, you could still play it on a Mac or PC!
I agree with perhaps editing that information into the original video or the like. But mobile, turn-based, words with friends with miniatures would be... pretty great, imo.
Not sure why that was so hard to convey to start but live and learn!
I think perhaps they were just too close to it. And our film-maker was maybe...not close enough? As you say, live and learn.
I hope you guys may decide to do something with it even if you don't reach the (rather ambitious) kickstarter goal. Someone linked to Dark Potential's indiegogo above, but I actually found that to be the exception, rather than the rule, in that they did not have ENOUGH initial content to really generate as much funding as they could have. They did, however, have a very recognizable name to tabletop wargamers, which carried them pretty far (and they put out more content as they went along with the campaign... but surprisingly, started with just a few pieces of artwork, and could have gotten a lot more if they'd been better prepared, imo).
It's something I bet the team would try to slow-burn on the side. Plenty of people think its a good idea even if we botched the launch of the KS. But I've still got some tricks up my sleeve once we correct the messaging.
I am also curious if you are the bearded or sans-bearded speaker not that you have to reveal that, of course (and perhaps you're neither).
I'm neither. I trained the bearded guy (Binky) in his first game industry job in like... 1995? He started in customer service, did some QA, moved into Game Community on Ultima Online and then on to game Marketing at Sony and EA. The non-bearded guy (Toad) thought this idea up. He was a QA tester at Origin Systems back in the day, say 1993? Worked on some great games like the Wing Commander series, System Shock and Ultima Online before he became a professional game designer. We've worked together various times over the last 17 years. Super creative. Both good guys.
Anyway, greatly appreciate your clarifying, and I would actually be very likely to purchase a game like what your second video describes, if it were available for one of my devices (perhaps even PC, although since it's turn-based, I wouldn't really be able to make use of it in a word with friends fashion).
Anytime, the folks in this form have been SUPER helpful to us in figuring out where we went wrong. Let's hope we can fix it and get the word out! I'll mull over your PC only situation. Maybe a Facebook plugin would serve for turn notifications so you didn't have run it all the time?
Integrating it through facebook would be an interesting idea. Or, as you mention, maybe Windows Phone 8 (which I think my phone will be getting upgraded to when it hits) will support Unity / etc.
Anyway, will be continuing to watch this move forward!
Hmmmmm I am not sure about this. . . Listening to the video it seems kinda boorish. . . I would much rather prefer a real TTG 3d Vassal style. It would be alot more fun to be able to play a 40K game with a buddy half way across the world.
Is there a video with a demonstration of an alpha or early build of the software?
Kind of hard to back a project that isn't exactly clear on what it is going to do. The videos are well made but don't exactly showcase any of the work done on the project.
Jacko4smackos wrote:Is there a video with a demonstration of an alpha or early build of the software?
Kind of hard to back a project that isn't exactly clear on what it is going to do. The videos are well made but don't exactly showcase any of the work done on the project.
Video is coming, however we've just posted a first look at the direction the project is taking. To be clear, this is a render, not an in-game shot. We'll be posting in-engine footage using the same assets shortly. In this scene, a dwarf faces off against two goblins. Close-ups of the dwarf are on the way as well.
B) Is this a good idea or not (and in some cases, WTF is this game idea really?)
Well, obviously we think it's a cool idea, but we're not doign the best job of communicating it, so we're working to improve it. A few topics:
1) Collectable? There's been a lot of feedback on this particular topic. Essentially, we have to monetize by either charging for it all up front, or having a low barrier to entry with an up-sell. Honestly, I don't care either way, and I think the team is open to either. With regards to randomness, we all agree that you should be able to specifically purchase any asset that you want. The "blister" pack concept is a way of purchasing a set of things without having to get specific if you don't want to.
2) Wargame or tactical game? The first release of this game will be a tactical game. The technology we're building can absolutely be modified to support larger scales, but that's not the initial thrust of the game. Personally, I like bigger armies, but it's not my idea, so I'll have to wait .
3) Why is digital even a good idea? I think there are a lot of us who struggle to get the time to play physical games together because of where we are in life. It would be awesome if I could have 6 games of MwE going on my phone or iPad all the time and I just take a turn when I have a minute. Not trying to replace real tabletop gaming.
1) Collectible: This is hit or miss, and mostly miss. I don't know what your experience is in tabletop gaming, but you should look into the success rate of collectible miniature games. At best, they tend to flare in the beginning, then fizzle out. There are ways that I think you can "hit" on this better, which I'll detail later.
2) I like the Tactical/RPG style option better. There are platforms already (like Vassal) for playing wargames.
3) I agree totally. This is why the option appeals to me, a notorious NON-video gamer.
We didn't do a prototype for the launch because we didn't feel it would be visually compelling and could have turned people off. Admittedly, that may have been a mistake, but that's the reasoning we did it the way we did.
I agree. I think it was a mistake. A video of what we could expect (in low res mode) that opened with a statement that it was meant to represent game play and feel, but that the image quality in the game would be superior in resolution (maybe, with some still shots of what actual game play mode would look like) would have gone a long way towards silencing some of your detractors (at best) or (at worst) some of their complaints.
ThomasPolder wrote:
SunSword wrote:So a month ago the management team came to me and said they really wanted to hold an internal competition to see who had the best idea for a kickstarter project, something everyone could be excited about and that someone else wasn't already doing. We had lots of great pitches, but MINIs with Enemies won out. So here we are. We've got a lot of Unity expertise and we've built a great backend toolset for running cross-platform games.
sorry to rehash this from earlier in the topic, but are you REALLY sure you want to go with a name like that? I mean, it suddenly makes a world of sense to me, for an internal pitch. For a product title (and with kickstarter taking off the way it has, you'll have to treat your pitch as such in many ways), are you really sure it's a good idea?
I'm inclined to agree here. While I think your logo looks good, I think it would look better if it was a logo of a better name.
Do I have any suggestions? Nope. Sorry. Not at the moment. I can tell you this much, though; Dakka's FULL of creative people. There are game companies (like Mantic and Battlefoam) that have successfully named products based on contests run online on sites like DakkaDakka.
SunSword wrote:Too cute?
Too uninspiring. It doesn't fuel the imagination.
Descent, Magic: the Gathering, Dungeons & Dragons, Doom, Diablo, Last Night on Earth, Red Dead Redemption; these games have attractive and creative names. "Minis with Enemies" sounds, frankly, like someone thought it would be clever to riff on the "Words with Friends" name, since the idea's the same. It's good for making your pitch to the boss, but it's not going to inspire someone to pick your box up off of the shelf at random in Walmart. I know I'd walk right past a box with that name, myself. Maybe I'm not the best test subject since, as I said earlier, I'm not a video gamer, but there have been plenty of games that I've picked up and looked at SOLELY because of the name, box art, or "catch phrase / tag line" on the front of the box.
The short answer is that it is a MINI-style game, not an RPG. So the MINIs have fixed character sheets. People can build their own dungeons/scenarios/campaigns, but it isn't an RPG system. In other words, a GM can make rooms, populate them with enemy MINIs, traps and objectives and then have other players play through. There's been some discussion of allowing other kinds of events like dialogue, but I think the team is currently steering away from a story-telling RPG feel. I don't think we ever suggested that people could use it to play other games.
I'll have to check your video later. My work PC has no speakers. For now, though, these thoughts/issues/questions arise. Forgive me, if the video covers them:
Will there be a chat mode? If I'm playing a cooperative game with 3 other people, and I've got to communicate with them OUTSIDE the game, that won't go well, if they're strangers. To begin with, I don't want to give out my email address to strangers that I might only be playing with for one game. They'll likely feel the same. As for my friends? Well, it would just be easier to type in a message and know they're going to see it the next time they log in, rather than HOPING they check their email before firing off that fireball.
While I'm thinking of that, will there be an integral notification? Perhaps something that sends out a message (email or otherwise) when it's your turn again, or will we have to keep logging in to check and see whose turn it is?
SunSword wrote:Good question! That's still under discussion. I've seen $19.99 thrown around, but we haven't finalized any pricing yet. Maybe we'd be better off charging $60 and you can get everything by just playing with no micro payments? Probably not, but it's something we'll have to discuss.
Whether or not I support the KS project has to do with 2 factors:
1) My personal financial situation, once I'm convinced I'll like the game engine (times are tough, after all)
2) What I see in the Kickstarter
If I'm uncertain and don't support the KS, but the project funds & gets off the ground, I would definitely look into it when it hits the market. At $20, I'd probably be in. At $60, I'm putting down the box and walking away.
Lysenis wrote:Hmmmmm I am not sure about this. . . Listening to the video it seems kinda boorish. . . I would much rather prefer a real TTG 3d Vassal style. It would be alot more fun to be able to play a 40K game with a buddy half way across the world.
You can... with Vassal.
While I see some (for me) imperfections in their approach, I fail to see why you'd want this to just be another Vassal?
Those aside, here are some comments/questions I have for you, SunSword:
Will you be able to use one mini simultaneously in multiple games, or will it be unavailable for secondary games, once a primary game is initiated?
Why not some sort of ability escalation?
For privately created games, why make the DM have to furnish all the treasure, etc? If he's taking the time to create a dungeon, why not 'front' a certain amount of treasure, based on the monsters he's including, and allow him to add other treasures from his collection, if he desires?
For that matter, why not reward DM's who make their creations public for ANYONE to play by furnishing the monsters AND treasures for that dungeon? He determines what monsters will be in the game (perhaps he has to "own" those monsters first, so you can still monetize it) and, if he makes it a public dungeon, you supply those monsters and, just like my previous suggestion, appropriate treasure? Essentially, he does the creation work and you get (a) the money for the monsters he's had to buy and (b) a free dungeon for all of your members/subscribers/players to use, thus increasing the value to them, since they now have more game play options.
Why not have the models come pre-painted, but allow them to be repainted? Some people won't want to take the time to paint their own models, and this would help them... that, or have a "pre-designed" template or 2 for each model that they can just click on.
Will a player have the ability to have his collection visible to the public? If so, you could have an 'emulate' option, so someone could just click it & have their model match? Maybe the owner of the original model has the option to allow emulation but, if he does, you give him a tiny amount of game credit?
How will you handle dungeon vs. character "levels?" How will you be sure that your dungeons, or the dungeons created by others, are not overpowered? Will the system compute a recommended level (by player or by party) based on the contents of the dungeon? Or, vice versa, will there be limits on what can be used by dungeon creators, based on which models he inputs that his players will be using? I don't want to be playing my "common" halfling thief with an equivalent character level of 2 in a dungeon where you walk around the corner and, "SURPRISE! Ancient Red Dragon! You die!"
What kind of treasure will there be? Will it all be in the vein of "game credits/gold," or will there also be magic items that can be assigned to a model, either permanently or swappable between minis? If it's swappable, will there be a limit on which minis can use it? A cloak of invisibility and ring of ice resistance would NOT be fair on the aforementioned ancient red dragon.
IF there's non-monetary treasure and IF it's permanently assigned to whichever model you give it to, what happens if you trade that model? Do you have to trade the items with it or are they unassigned and, therefore, able to be assigned to someone new?
Hmm... Saw this on your KS page:
Defeat the Adventure Map objective to win Items, Minis, and Gold! Gold can be used to buy new Minis, usable items, Adventure Editor pieces and creatures as well as user generated Adventure Maps.
The Minis with Enemies Bazaar is a marketplace where you can browse and buy Minis, Adventure Maps, Set Decorations, Tile Sets, and other items using your in-game Gold and cold hard cash!
Okay... I'm partially answered. There are usable items. The SPECIFICS of my question re: items is unanswered, but I know there will be items, at least.
What about those Adventure Editor pieces? Will those be dropped as random treasures at the end? If so, what if I don't want to create my own maps? Can I opt out of certain treasure types? Will there be a gold/credit value associated with each, so I can swap it out for something else? If so, could I swap out 2 or 3 things for ONE item that's equal to their total value (or less)? Would there, otherwise, be a "trade zone," where 2 players could agree on a trade, enter their items, and the system automatically processes the trade?
From a previous post of mine:
The "miniatures" in these packs come unpainted. Will you HAVE to paint them before playing with them? If not, how soon until we see a rise of people criticizing you and refusing to play you with your gray, unpainted digi-models?
If you're not familiar with the community surrounding Warhammer 40K and the like, there are many people who will refuse to play against people who do not have completely painted armies. So, really, I think this is a valid question and something you should explore. My earlier questions/suggestions re: painting could do wonders towards solving the issue.
Each Mini comes with a character card that tells its name, backstory, stats, skills and abilities. The character card also shows the Mini’s die rolls and keeps track of its health and penalties.
Will my mini revert to normal after the game ends? What if it "dies" in the game? I presume it's not lost, entirely?
Earlier, I mentioned the problems I see with the collectible aspect of your game and said I had suggestions on improving it. Well, here goes. I'll start with a quote of an earlier post of mine:
I wouldn't mind the randomness as much, if the packs were, at least, targeted.
I mean, if I plan on being a DM for a group, maybe I don't want to risk getting a bunch of halflings and a half orc. Let me buy a "Goblin pack" that contains, if not ALL Goblins, at least goblinoids. Let me buy an undead pack, a drow pack, etc. This way, I can have a CHANCE to get something I need to populate my dungeon with. If I'm creating "Assault on the goblin warrens," I don't want to have to buy 500 packs in hopes of getting together 50 or 60 goblin troops.
You want 3 types of packs:
Common Blister Packs: These contain 4 random common minis with a small chance of getting 1 uncommon mini
Gold Blister Packs: These contain 1 random uncommon mini and have a higher chance of getting additional uncommon minis as well as a very slight chance of getting a rare mini
You will be able to buy Platinum Blister packs using real world money. Platinum Blister Packs will contain 1 random rare mini and three uncommon minis with a slight chance of getting additional rare minis.
Target those packs as best possible. I don't have a list of you 100 models, so I can't be specific. I'll just use commong fantasy creatures/monsters.
Common Blister Pack: 4 Random Common minis of one type This could be all goblins, for example, with a mix of types, if applicable (spearmen, archers, etc), with a chance of getting 1 uncommon mini (a hobgoblin, goblin shaman, etc). Orcs, halflings, adventurers, dwarves, missile wielding adventurers, close combat adventurers, magic wielders (arcane, divine and/or a mix) etc. could all potentially be packs.
Gold Blister Pack: 1 Uncommon Mini (goblin shaman, hobgoblin, etc., as above) and commons. Maybe another shaman, hobgoblin, etc., and maybe a rare (Goblin Chieftan)., Etc.
Platinum Blister: Dark Elf Pack - 1 Rare (Dark Elf Priestess), 3 uncommons (Dark Elf wizard. fighters, etc). Maybe another Priestess or a Giant Poisonous Spider as a bonus rare.
This would allow you to target your audiences or, rather, allow your audience to target themselves. If you see that a few packs are outselling the rest, you know that more minis along those lines will probably be popular in future expansions. If a few are failing utterly (nobody's buying the Platinum "Oozes and Slimes" pack), you know that you need to (a) phase it out or (b) bring out models to support it better, so that it's more attractive.
And, for heaven's sake, DON'T discontinue any of the models. Ever. This will only cause a false inflation of any secondary/after market value on them if you DO allow inter-player trading. That will KILL the market.
I look forward to your responses.
Eric
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SunSword wrote:
Jacko4smackos wrote:Is there a video with a demonstration of an alpha or early build of the software?
Kind of hard to back a project that isn't exactly clear on what it is going to do. The videos are well made but don't exactly showcase any of the work done on the project.
Video is coming, however we've just posted a first look at the direction the project is taking. To be clear, this is a render, not an in-game shot. We'll be posting in-engine footage using the same assets shortly. In this scene, a dwarf faces off against two goblins. Close-ups of the dwarf are on the way as well.
Looks like you covered one of my points here.
I'm at work, posting in my free time. The previous post was about 2 hours in the making. LOL So, I missed this post.
Lysenis wrote:Hmmmmm I am not sure about this. . . Listening to the video it seems kinda boorish. . . I would much rather prefer a real TTG 3d Vassal style. It would be alot more fun to be able to play a 40K game with a buddy half way across the world.
You can... with Vassal.
While I see some (for me) imperfections in their approach, I fail to see why you'd want this to just be another Vassal?
Looking at vassal I am stuck looking at the game from a 12 noon position. What I want is the ability to set up a Malifaux, Necromunda, BFG, Epic style games. I want the ability to host a Deathwatch, All is war, Pathfinder games, not just their game. Since this game is being Kickstarted for $300,000 I would think that this style of game would be able to host multiple versions, if not I am getting a copy (if it gets created) creating a free mod file since it will not be that difficult to do, and release it to all those that want to play.
MagickalMemories wrote:Ah.
I get you, now.
It's not about playing the game, so much as it's playing the game with a more dynamic appearance.
Good enough. Makes sense. Thanks for the clarification.
Eric
Exactly, Why should I upgrade from my PS1 where I play Legend of Dragoon or FF7 when the PS3 looks so bad arse graphic wise. Food for thought.
That and the fact that I can do it on my ASUS Transformer vs my ASUS G73, means I can do this while on lunch break at work (its like having a chess game that spans a long long time).
I also want the ability to PAINT my minis on vassal instead of HAVING to use the BA for my Blood Falcons. (horrid artist drawing wise)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SilverMK2 wrote:Sounds kind of like Skylanders except I won't have little models sitting next to my TV...
B) Is this a good idea or not (and in some cases, WTF is this game idea really?)
Well, obviously we think it's a cool idea, but we're not doign the best job of communicating it, so we're working to improve it. A few topics:
*snip*
Eric
Eric, I really want to respond to all of your thoughts, but I think as CEO I'm not the best choice to get to the level of detail you're looking for. Asking for designers to weigh in on it. Not ignoring you.
SunSword wrote:Eric, I really want to respond to all of your thoughts, but I think as CEO I'm not the best choice to get to the level of detail you're looking for. Asking for designers to weigh in on it. Not ignoring you.
What?
No, dammit! I want answers NOW! INSTANT GRATIFICATION!
Isn't that what the Interwebz is all about?
LOL It's all good. Answer everything or nothing... I was just throwing out every thought or idea that hit the brain pan. : )
I know that some/many/all of the things I asked about might/could increase costs, since it would require more code. Can't hurt to bring it up, though. I think more game designers could benefit from the direct input of their actual or potential consumers.
I appreciate the response & look forward to their answers.
We saw all your comments up-to-this point and rather than respond to each one, I'll just say "thanks for the thoughtful feedback." We're open to changing the name, although we do like the logo. We had to come up with something catchy, but right now, we're more concerned about nailing the info on the game itself. Entirely new kickstarter movie going up shortly.
Those aside, here are some comments/questions I have for you, SunSword:
Will you be able to use one mini simultaneously in multiple games, or will it be unavailable for secondary games, once a primary game is initiated?
From Todd: This has been highly debated, but the current answer is "Yes, you can use it in multiple games."
Why not some sort of ability escalation?
From Todd: The problem I see with this is that with over a hundred minis, trying to keep up with leveling individual minis would become a pain in the ass very quickly. Secondarily, a leveling system for the minis would make the collection mechanic awkward and require a lot more dependency analysis. We have some experience with this from the "minions" system in Gods and Heroes. Once you get a character of a certain type, and invest in leveling her up, you suddenly don't need a reason to have another one. Additionally, part of the problem is playing at different levels. Some dungeons are going to be level 2 dungeons, and if I’ve leveled all my minis up to level 10, I suddenly can’t play that dungeon anymore.
But, if I have 3 level 10 minis and 20 level 2 minis and 5 level 5 minis, or whatever, I can play in any dungeon of any level with any of my friends, regardless of how far they’ve gotten through the game.
For privately created games, why make the DM have to furnish all the treasure, etc? If he's taking the time to create a dungeon, why not 'front' a certain amount of treasure, based on the monsters he's including, and allow him to add other treasures from his collection, if he desires?
For that matter, why not reward DM's who make their creations public for ANYONE to play by furnishing the monsters AND treasures for that dungeon? He determines what monsters will be in the game (perhaps he has to "own" those monsters first, so you can still monetize it) and, if he makes it a public dungeon, you supply those monsters and, just like my previous suggestion, appropriate treasure? Essentially, he does the creation work and you get (a) the money for the monsters he's had to buy and (b) a free dungeon for all of your members/subscribers/players to use, thus increasing the value to them, since they now have more game play options.
Todd: This is a debatable point, and one that I think we were talking about anyway, because of the point Anthony made the other day about being able to say, “I just started the game and I want to make scenarios for my friends, but I can’t.”
Why not have the models come pre-painted, but allow them to be repainted? Some people won't want to take the time to paint their own models, and this would help them... that, or have a "pre-designed" template or 2 for each model that they can just click on.
Todd: We’ve talked about having 3 different “presets” for each mini. Certainly, you will be able to choose to have the default textures and then customize from their.
Will a player have the ability to have his collection visible to the public? If so, you could have an 'emulate' option, so someone could just click it & have their model match? Maybe the owner of the original model has the option to allow emulation but, if he does, you give him a tiny amount of game credit?
Public collections: Yes. A system for "copying" someone else's paint job via some system or economy is pretty interesting. They're discussing.
How will you handle dungeon vs. character "levels?" How will you be sure that your dungeons, or the dungeons created by others, are not overpowered? Will the system compute a recommended level (by player or by party) based on the contents of the dungeon? Or, vice versa, will there be limits on what can be used by dungeon creators, based on which models he inputs that his players will be using? I don't want to be playing my "common" halfling thief with an equivalent character level of 2 in a dungeon where you walk around the corner and, "SURPRISE! Ancient Red Dragon! You die!"
Todd: We have a system for putting enemies and traps into dungeons that ensures that the player level vs. the dungeon level is on par. We aren’t going to let players shove a Red Dragon into their level 2 dungeon. We continue to play test this.
What kind of treasure will there be? Will it all be in the vein of "game credits/gold," or will there also be magic items that can be assigned to a model, either permanently or swappable between minis? If it's swappable, will there be a limit on which minis can use it? A cloak of invisibility and ring of ice resistance would NOT be fair on the aforementioned ancient red dragon.
IF there's non-monetary treasure and IF it's permanently assigned to whichever model you give it to, what happens if you trade that model? Do you have to trade the items with it or are they unassigned and, therefore, able to be assigned to someone new?
Hmm... Saw this on your KS page:
Defeat the Adventure Map objective to win Items, Minis, and Gold! Gold can be used to buy new Minis, usable items, Adventure Editor pieces and creatures as well as user generated Adventure Maps.
The Minis with Enemies Bazaar is a marketplace where you can browse and buy Minis, Adventure Maps, Set Decorations, Tile Sets, and other items using your in-game Gold and cold hard cash!
Okay... I'm partially answered. There are usable items. The SPECIFICS of my question re: items is unanswered, but I know there will be items, at least.
What about those Adventure Editor pieces? Will those be dropped as random treasures at the end? If so, what if I don't want to create my own maps? Can I opt out of certain treasure types? Will there be a gold/credit value associated with each, so I can swap it out for something else? If so, could I swap out 2 or 3 things for ONE item that's equal to their total value (or less)? Would there, otherwise, be a "trade zone," where 2 players could agree on a trade, enter their items, and the system automatically processes the trade?
Me: There's gold, MINIs, usable items and dungeon props (traps, trees, chairs, etc...). There is no equipment (i.e. an axe that would change both the visual look and stats of a MINI). There's currently a debate on whether or not we want to provide dungeon props as a reward or if dungeon creators will just get access to all of the common stuff available in a given purchased "Campaign." So if you buy the "Silverbrush Campaign" you get all the common stuff in build mode. There's a pretty serious divide in the office about whether to have "uncommon" props that are provided as rewards or additional purchases. If we were to go that route, once you get that item, you can use it in as many custom maps you want to make.
From a previous post of mine:
The "miniatures" in these packs come unpainted. Will you HAVE to paint them before playing with them? If not, how soon until we see a rise of people criticizing you and refusing to play you with your gray, unpainted digi-models?
If you're not familiar with the community surrounding Warhammer 40K and the like, there are many people who will refuse to play against people who do not have completely painted armies. So, really, I think this is a valid question and something you should explore. My earlier questions/suggestions re: painting could do wonders towards solving the issue.
Hopefully people will take advantage of the defaults.
Each Mini comes with a character card that tells its name, backstory, stats, skills and abilities. The character card also shows the Mini’s die rolls and keeps track of its health and penalties.
Will my mini revert to normal after the game ends? What if it "dies" in the game? I presume it's not lost, entirely?
Yes
Earlier, I mentioned the problems I see with the collectible aspect of your game and said I had suggestions on improving it. Well, here goes. I'll start with a quote of an earlier post of mine:
I wouldn't mind the randomness as much, if the packs were, at least, targeted.
I mean, if I plan on being a DM for a group, maybe I don't want to risk getting a bunch of halflings and a half orc. Let me buy a "Goblin pack" that contains, if not ALL Goblins, at least goblinoids. Let me buy an undead pack, a drow pack, etc. This way, I can have a CHANCE to get something I need to populate my dungeon with. If I'm creating "Assault on the goblin warrens," I don't want to have to buy 500 packs in hopes of getting together 50 or 60 goblin troops.
You want 3 types of packs:
Common Blister Packs: These contain 4 random common minis with a small chance of getting 1 uncommon mini
Gold Blister Packs: These contain 1 random uncommon mini and have a higher chance of getting additional uncommon minis as well as a very slight chance of getting a rare mini
You will be able to buy Platinum Blister packs using real world money. Platinum Blister Packs will contain 1 random rare mini and three uncommon minis with a slight chance of getting additional rare minis.
Target those packs as best possible. I don't have a list of you 100 models, so I can't be specific. I'll just use commong fantasy creatures/monsters.
Common Blister Pack: 4 Random Common minis of one type This could be all goblins, for example, with a mix of types, if applicable (spearmen, archers, etc), with a chance of getting 1 uncommon mini (a hobgoblin, goblin shaman, etc). Orcs, halflings, adventurers, dwarves, missile wielding adventurers, close combat adventurers, magic wielders (arcane, divine and/or a mix) etc. could all potentially be packs.
Gold Blister Pack: 1 Uncommon Mini (goblin shaman, hobgoblin, etc., as above) and commons. Maybe another shaman, hobgoblin, etc., and maybe a rare (Goblin Chieftan)., Etc.
Platinum Blister: Dark Elf Pack - 1 Rare (Dark Elf Priestess), 3 uncommons (Dark Elf wizard. fighters, etc). Maybe another Priestess or a Giant Poisonous Spider as a bonus rare.
This would allow you to target your audiences or, rather, allow your audience to target themselves. If you see that a few packs are outselling the rest, you know that more minis along those lines will probably be popular in future expansions. If a few are failing utterly (nobody's buying the Platinum "Oozes and Slimes" pack), you know that you need to (a) phase it out or (b) bring out models to support it better, so that it's more attractive.
And, for heaven's sake, DON'T discontinue any of the models. Ever. This will only cause a false inflation of any secondary/after market value on them if you DO allow inter-player trading. That will KILL the market.
From Todd: The three types of Blister Packs he talks about are almost exactly what’s in our design document. And yes, I agree, never discontinue models. It sucks.
Would someone be able to "play" as any of the available minis or are some restricted to being dungeon fodder?
I think you're restricting your potential market a little by not implementing character leveling, even to a limited degree with equipment upgrades.
As much, as you say, as it would be a pain to level up your beloved half-dwarven milk maid to level 50 and then not be able to run her through any level 10 dungeons, there are surely systems that would allow leveling that wouldn't _force_ leveling. So "coins" that you earn in battle or whatever can be spent on upgrading your character in some limited way that wouldn't make purchasing other minis redundant. They can also be spent on other things entirely, or perhaps on visual upgrades that don't alter a models level.
Right now I'm seeing a much bigger draw from the DM side of things than from the player pushing his mini through a dungeon side of things, which I think would needlessly shrink your player base.
Sorry to keep tossing my hat in front of you but the more I think about this the more excited I become. One thing you have going in your favor is your willingness to make an online presence and your dedication to interaction on the forums. Great stuff!
1) I agree with a number of the other gamers here worrying about the lack of upgrades for a discovered mini. While it's true that it would partially negate the desire to purchase new MINIs perhaps it could also increase the desire to play games and purchase equipment? Granted, for all I know finding Bracers of Strength + 1 might be considered an expansion feature, I think it would greatly enhance the game in terms of depth. Plus, you needn't exactly have to deal with experience if you use your treasure accordingly. A great example of this is how the purchased upgrades for cars works in Nitro Nations phone game, Drag Racing.
Example:
A mini at level one can have a total of 10 upgrade points. My favorite character, Larry the Lawyer, has a mighty Briefcase of Health, which gives him a whopping 10 hit points. It costs 5 upgrade points. If Larry also equips his Rolex of Reflexes +2, which costs 15 points, he will now be usable in a lvl 2 campaign. If I want to play him in a level 1 game, something has to give.
This is easily monetized in two ways.
First, you can now put items in a marketplace that eat up free coins which now will be supplemented with real cash.
Second, you can put a maximum number of upgrage points on certain minis. Say Larry is a common. Give him a max of 30 points. He can be played at level 1 2 or 3, whichever. Now Taxman Timmy on the otherhand, he's a rare MINI! He starts at level 10 and can have up to 50 additional points, making him playable at levels 10 through 20! Might make people more willing to go after the rares.
Granted this assumes a lot about your system, but I can foresee a lot of lost interest in no progress for your MINIS. Who would play Pokemon without leveling up or evolutions? If you didn't want to do a limited or unlimited xp earning system, at least a bunch of magic items could give peoples favorites a more playable shelf life. And hopefully the added balance of class roles (Fighters, Thiefs, Wizards, Clerics etc..) would give people reason to train up and use multiple minis anyways.)
TL;DR: Even if you didn't use XP, which would be a shame even if minis were limited in their leveling up, using significant items could add a lot of depth without breaking your game.
This idea = death throes of a failed company. You jumped on the Sam Jackson wagon too late, maybe.
The reason minis don't level up is because they know you'd stick with one and they see "collecting" as something that makes the seemingly deep-pocketed wargaming crowd moist. This "mini reward" system is how they shoehorned collecting in there.
Thunderfrog wrote:TL;DR: Even if you didn't use XP, which would be a shame even if minis were limited in their leveling up, using significant items could add a lot of depth without breaking your game.
Gotta agree with the frog on this. I can live with the lack of levelling if there is something i can give my mini to help them out, be it a stat changing item like Braces of Armour to buff Defence or a Thong of Luck to buff the chance to find rare minis.
I can see this as a bit of a level limit to the items. Say levels 1 to 3 can only have 1 item, 4 to 8 can have two items, 9 to 15 can have three items etc. The idea of items as a monetizing stream is cool because it gives you a whole new pool of items (possibly not even needing to be rendered, but it would be better if they were) that you can buy.
It also gives people the options of something like this:
I love my Barbarian but he has sucky X. This dungeon has killed me 3 times because of X traps so I have to use a Dwarf which I hate but has great X. Lame!
becomes
I love my Barbarian but he has sucky X. This dungeon has killed me 3 times because of X traps so I will equip/buy a Headband of X resistance and try again! Go Barbarians!
EDIT: It also gives people some power of customisation and allows for people for feel empowered about their character rather than just being a Halfling Rogue #255235. This sort of engagement and choice is what is going to keep people playing. How many people argue the pros and cons of builds on dakka? Would we have such animated discussion if there was only static options?
Ok let me throw my thoughts on leveling. If I have played the game and leveled my minis beyond the effective dungeon level and I have none left to play with my friends. Why institute one of 3 things, the ability to buy multiples minis of the same design but let players customize them (items and gear, name), or let players buy a reset scroll to reset them to that level, or even allow players to clone the minis at a lower level.
Seems complicated BUT each option opens the door to a online store system where your selling more then minis and maps.
I really do like the idea of being able to get props from dungeons. For some reason I see a diorama with all of my minis looking like there about to do battle with a dragon and props I have collected are all over this stage, the stage rotates lazily allowing a 360 view and that is just the main screen you see after logging on.
We saw all your comments up-to-this point and rather than respond to each one, I'll just say "thanks for the thoughtful feedback." We're open to changing the name, although we do like the logo. We had to come up with something catchy, but right now, we're more concerned about nailing the info on the game itself. Entirely new kickstarter movie going up shortly.
Yeah... I'm known for my potential for verbosity. LOL
Thanks for the response. I like it when game developers (though, I'm usually referring to miniature games or RPG's) take the time to get involved with their audience and hash things out.
I think your interest in nailing the info on the game first is a good idea. That should be your focus, anyway. Names can always be changed, even at the last minute.
Why not some sort of ability escalation?
From Todd: The problem I see with this is that with over a hundred minis, trying to keep up with leveling individual minis would become a pain in the ass very quickly. Secondarily, a leveling system for the minis would make the collection mechanic awkward and require a lot more dependency analysis. We have some experience with this from the "minions" system in Gods and Heroes. Once you get a character of a certain type, and invest in leveling her up, you suddenly don't need a reason to have another one. Additionally, part of the problem is playing at different levels. Some dungeons are going to be level 2 dungeons, and if I’ve leveled all my minis up to level 10, I suddenly can’t play that dungeon anymore.
This makes sense to me, and I can definitely see how a "leveling up" system would not coincide well with your plans for the game.
Considering some of the feedback I've seen following your post, though, it might be something for you to keep in mind fir future endeavors; perhaps, as a follow up to MwE. Maybe a game where everything's collectible except the characters, which can level up?
Todd: We have a system for putting enemies and traps into dungeons that ensures that the player level vs. the dungeon level is on par. We aren’t going to let players shove a Red Dragon into their level 2 dungeon. We continue to play test this.
This is good to know. I'm sure the bottom line answer is (or is similar to) "we'll create a system that will analyze the encounters in a dungeon and assign a level" or "we'll create a system that allows a certain degree of difficulty to be put into a dungeon, but will cut the creator off after he hits a certain point," and that's good enough for me. It's good to know that you foresaw that private dungeon creation could have level issues (the aforementioned dragon) and proactively moved to deal with it.
Me: There's gold, MINIs, usable items and dungeon props (traps, trees, chairs, etc...). There is no equipment (i.e. an axe that would change both the visual look and stats of a MINI). There's currently a debate on whether or not we want to provide dungeon props as a reward or if dungeon creators will just get access to all of the common stuff available in a given purchased "Campaign." So if you buy the "Silverbrush Campaign" you get all the common stuff in build mode. There's a pretty serious divide in the office about whether to have "uncommon" props that are provided as rewards or additional purchases. If we were to go that route, once you get that item, you can use it in as many custom maps you want to make.
Without being pushy, can I request more details on "usable items?" I'm not asking for secrets. : ) I'm just wondering how that is defined. For example, you could be referring to potions and scrolls, which are 1-shot items, or other "usable" items which wouldn't really affect the appearance of a mini. Rings, bracers, etc., would all be presumably more permanent, but could be ignored when it comes to showing them on the model.
Also, would those "usable items" be swappable within my collection? If I take an Elf Swashbuckler into a dungeon and prop him up with a half dozen potions of healing that he doesn't use, will those be able to be removed and kept in an centralized inventory list at the end of the adventure?
For the record, I think dungeon props would be a kind of sucky reward. Especially, if they're one use items. I don't want to get a chair for completing a dungeon if I've got no intent of creating dungeons. Hmm... Thinking about it, I just don't want a chair as a reward. LOL I like the idea of buying the "campaign" and getting the goodies with it better.
I think you'll hear a lot of griping from people who are strictly players (gamers like to complain LOL) if you use dungeon props as rewards, unless you include some sort of option that allows them to swap those for other, equal rewards. Maybe there could be options? "Check here if you want Dungeon Props included in your potential rewards." Just a thought.
Will my mini revert to normal after the game ends? What if it "dies" in the game? I presume it's not lost, entirely?
Yes
Good news. Thanks.
It would've sucked, otherwise.
Will there be options for "mid-game' joining? If I die, can I rejoin the game with the DM's approval?
From Todd: The three types of Blister Packs he talks about are almost exactly what’s in our design document. And yes, I agree, never discontinue models. It sucks.
Thank Todd for me. : ) He understands collectible mini games.
PlasticTrees wrote:Would someone be able to "play" as any of the available minis or are some restricted to being dungeon fodder?
Excellent question. It's one I meant to ask in my earlier novel, but forgot.
Not sure how I might feel, adventuring along side a Red Dragon. LOL Then again, I'd love PLAYING it. ; )
I'll answer a few more questions, later today, but I thought you should know there have been a few more updates, as well as the first render of a MINI. It's a dwarf!
Pretty cool.
Is that a final product or WIP?
If it's a final product, I think you'll hear some criticism of "lack of detail." While there is some detail, there are a lot of places where more could be.
Well, I think the concept is nice.
Any word on the playability of all models vs. "character" models?
Oh... and I was thinking about something earlier...
Why are there only 20 common miniatures? If they are common, I'd expect there to be more along the lines of 40 to 60.
scarletsquig wrote:There really is nothing to see here, it is just a video game idea, like the hundreds of other kickstarter video game ideas that do not get funded... developers spam them in the hopes that eventually they'll find enough people to pay them $100k to fund an easy flash game-style project that will take them 3 months to make, and then make them a ton of money on release via microtransactions after that.
QFT.
Most forums I frequent, DevAdSpam like this gets locked and nuked.
Dakka might be unique in allowing developers to post about their own products, but I personally really like it. There's no special treatment given, but they can post and give more information, which is extremely helpful.
I wish someone could convince Dave at Hawk Wargames to do so regarding Dropzone Commander!!
scipio.au wrote:Most forums I frequent, DevAdSpam like this gets locked and nuked.
It a short slide to locking/nuking the Sedition Wars thread by that logic. Mike turns up and answers questions there doesn't he?
Is that your endgame Scipio? Is it?
Sure it is not your cup of tea, and it is from the ground up a business venture rather than an act of love (unlike that epic game or McVey wanting to get his minis out there for peeps) but that doesn't mean it doesn't have some value to others.
Sure I would agree with you if they kept making thread after thread of their stuff, but so far it has been limited to this one thread and there is at least the implication that feedback is being taken so I do not see the harm in it.
Oh, I'm not too worried about this being locked or not personally. While I don't appreciate the tone used by Thunderfrog, I have no issue with his message.
But then, the forum I'm thinking of the most is one that frequently gets lots of people with no intent on being a part of the community pop in to either ask for money or expect to be treated like Rockstars. On the other hand, we have active devs who are just part of the community, and not only there to look for accolades or funds for their latest project.
SunSword wrote:I'll answer a few more questions, later today, but I thought you should know there have been a few more updates, as well as the first render of a MINI. It's a dwarf!
<snip>
I honestly found the pitch confusing: "Minis with Enemies is everything you want in a tabletop miniature game." - except for being a tabletop miniature game, right? Because quite possibly the reason I play tabletop miniature games is for the tabletop and miniature aspects... Digitizing this seems pointless, but power to you if people are actually interested in that.
Knowing Frothers for what it is, I spent a couple of minutes on Reaper's website and found Anvall Thricedamned, who looks a lot like the sixth figure on your logo. More checking found this dwarf, similar if not identical to the last silhouette on the logo. Are they all copies of Reaper Miniatures, or is the artwork based on original concepts and designs?
You are correct. My tone was both surly and reeked of asshatery. A simple "Well, I hope that doesn't happen here!" would have sufficed. My apologies.
@ angryboy
That's some find. I don't think there's any real question the silhouttes are ripped from existing Reaper Minis. Given how transparent the Devs here have been so far, I don't foresee them lieing, but merely dodging the question, as even a simple glance at your pics shows the logo for what it is.
If an answer is given, I assume the honest one will be along the lines of "We didn't have enough time. We did what we could and plan to replace the sihlouttes with proprietary ones later."
My interest in a project like this remains strong, I just hope it can weather it's initial growing pains and miraculously hit it's high requirement. I'd love a turn based minis game long the same lines as words with friends.
yeah,
The stolen IP shadows in the logo are pretty shocking... How hard is it to shadow out your own IP.
I'm also not sold on the 'minis' themselves.
Non-animated 3d models are a pretty lame thing to expect people to shell out real £££s for.
They could at least move like the holo game in starwars.
RiTides wrote:Dakka might be unique in allowing developers to post about their own products, but I personally really like it. There's no special treatment given, but they can post and give more information, which is extremely helpful.
This is one of the things I like about Dakka. Prior to Necros' fund raiser, Kickstarter wasn't even on my radar. I mean, I knew what it was... but I never really bothered with it. Now, I've supported 2 (one by tagging on to a friend's, because I missed the cut off to do it on my own) and am looking at this one as a possibility (I just need a bit more convincing, since I'm not a video gamer). Heck, I've got this children's "pop up" book idea that's been floating around my head for a while, and I've even been wondering if I might even give it a go, myself. if it wasn't for Dakka allowing these threads to survive and thrive, I might not have ever done these things.
I'm not worried about spam. Ideas not worth supporting aren't going to live long. I know there's one on here somewhere that had someone wanting to open a store(?) and his indiegogo project was floundering HARD because his idea and project plan weren't solid or well communicated. On the other hand, Sedition Wars, Ogre, Zombiecide, Blackwater Gulch and other great games/ideas will thrive because they're excellent products and are well represented by their creators/developers.
One thing that I agree with Panic on (I like him, but we don't agree A LOT, so this is a big deal LOL) is the non-animated nature of the models. If it's been covered, I beg your apologies, as I've overlooked it, but are the models static in-game? If all I do is see my static-posed dwarf slide/move across the screen to the spot I choose, then I resolve any other actions (combat, etc.) in a side screen, etc, I won't be very impressed. It seems that animated walking, falling into a pit trap, swinging an axe, dying, etc. sequences would be a relatively easy thing for designers to create. It's what *I* want in a game, myself.
The more I think about this project, the more I worry for the designers. They're in a bad spot. They have to satisfy VIDEO gamers, Table-top wargamers AND RPGers with this game, all at the same time. If they fail, they lose a segment of their audience. Sure, there's lots of cross-over, but there are plenty who don't. Those of us who only wargame and RPG, for example, won't like the game if it doesn't appeal to at least one of those two aspects... and we can get static minis that we can hold in our hands. So, that's a big selling point for us.
Eric
P.S. Since it's just on the KS page, I'm not too worried about the mini silhouettes. I agree that they DO look like Reaper minis. If that's what they are, then I'm certain they'll be swapped out as soon as MwE has enough of their own minis to replace them. I doubt they'd risk the legal hassle of using Reaper model silhouettes on their OFFICIAL logos.
Speaking of MwE minis, I hope future minis are more dynamically posed.
You've blanked out the images of the two models I've posted on several headers - though not all of them: they are still visible on the Loot and Rewards logo.
Does this mean that ALL the other miniature silhouettes are your own models and designs, or does it simply mean that I didn't search through enough of Reaper's catalog to find them all? Maybe you could (should?) mention Reaper on your Kickstarter page and thank them for kindly allowing you to use their figures in your logos.
Hey all, I really appreciate all the feedback, critical or otherwise.
First, I want to address the logo. I will never endorse the unauthorized use of unlicensed or owned content by Heatwave. When it came to my attention I had them re-evaluate all of the logo assets. Everyone involved should have known better. I've talked to all of them. There may be a few places where the old logo hasn't been replaced, but if you still notice something out of order, just let me know. I'm embarrassed and apologize. The Producer has already contacted and apologized to Reaper.
We've taken all the feedback in stride and have suspended the kickstarter until the team is further along with the project. I had them put a special thanks in the main video to DakkaDakka and PA for all the helpful feedback.
If you want to continue the discussion, happy to do it here, or join us over at www.miniswithenemies.com.
I've got hugely mixed emotions about this.
One one hand, the thing only had a couple weeks left and hadn't been funded very much, so it wasn't looking good for it. On the other hand, this means (hopefully), when it comes back, it will come out roaring and hit like a ton of bricks!
SunSword, are you planning on sticking around the forums here to address anything that might pop up in this thread?
I think that it's great to see you address the logo issue in an upfront and honest manner. Kudos for that.
I also think ending the kickstarter and restarting it when the project has more to show will be better for the whole project to be honest. It'll be much more sellable and there'll be more interest because the project will be better-defined. The best kickstarters always seem to be the ones that are mostly done and need funding to overcome a hurdle like tooling, publication etc.
You know the weird thing that really turned me off this one is that on the first video, when the bearded guy (Binky I think?) is interviewing people, he has this massive set of headphones on. Like, are you even listening to those guys?
This is why capitalism rules. Shoddy enterprises like this one (stealing images = shoddy/stealing images = lazy = shoddy - not to mention the general shoddy idea) crash and burn but can clutch on to some dignity by blaming the economy/big businesses.
If it was that easy to just tap into wargamers wallets, we'd all be millionaires on here.
Davylove21 wrote:The whole thing stank. This isn't coming back.
This is why capitalism rules. Shoddy enterprises like this one (stealing images = shoddy/stealing images = lazy = shoddy - not to mention the general shoddy idea) crash and burn but can clutch on to some dignity by blaming the economy/big businesses.
If it was that easy to just tap into wargamers wallets, we'd all be millionaires on here.
Regardless of what you think we did get a straightforward answer from Sun.
Now, I do want to see this when it is much more completed, a $300,000 KS was a bit of a leap but it is still good, these are "Kick Starters" meant to get you going or finished (depending on you opinion) trying to get the entire cost of the product so that you dont lose and only gain is quite selfish IMHO but that is the way of a major business. This is why all these small business succeed (and sometimes fail), they are willing to take some chances.
Just my 1 1/2 cents of an opinion.
Please keep Rule Number One in mind when you post. Thanks ~ Manchu
Thunderfrog wrote:While were at it, look at the one on the end.
Hey! That's actually one of Tre's sculpts that he did for Reaper. Tre' Manor - Red Box Miniatures who is also a Dakka member.
I see that this has now been cancelled. I had a look at the logo, and saw that the three picked out in this thread were (mostly) replaced. But it kinda made me think - it's like whack-a-mole. The others in the same original image were probably also all blacked-out Reaper (or others') figures - just not changed out because we hadn't identified them..
Read through this tragic thread and all I can say is..
URP!
Whats wrong with this is that it was 110% foggy from the get go. Your pitch was craptastic, the "Product" goal was overly excessive for what was either going to be or not going to be offered, and that the whole, after the fact reaper thing was pretty par for the course on how NOT to do a kickstarter.
I can see this for what it was, but its hard to see it crash and burn.
I for one would like ot see miniatures, not facsimile ones on a computer. If you want a computer game, pitch a computer game, and leave miniatures out of the discussion.
This was an "original" IP that had it's own rules that you play turn by turn like words with friends.
The first problem they had was a misleading into video that tried to capture interest by showing Warmahordes and 40k that make people THINK it was like Vassal. They later clarified the game was it's own monster, and I liked where it was going.
The very obviously weren't prepared and it shows, all the way down to their logo having to borrow Reaper silhouttes in order to get their point across.
It was extremely flawed in it's presentation, but I liked the niche they were going for.
I think it would be neat to pick up my phone when it buzzes, move by wizard into a hallway, chuck a fireball, then end my turn and have a pal anywhere in the world do the same.
Very smart move Sunsword,your idea is killer and there is a diamond in there as you already know,but nothing is worse than a rushed product.
I would also think about trying to do this on an Iphone/pad format,that is where the real money is these days.
I would so play this all day on my phone when the boss was not looking.
That Words with Friends guy is a multi-millionaire right now,and so can you.
Well at least a thousandaire
.
but live and learn!
