So my brother and I where discussing Halo and he asked me what a Stat line of a Spartan would be. I thought about it for a bit and heres what I came up with.
It was really hard deciding if they would be S/T 3 or 4 since a there isnt a scale for high 3 or low 4. So for now their on the low end of 4 but still a 4. WS 4 since they're trained in H2H. same for BS. Tho again I had a tough time for wither 3 or 4.
The save may sound off to Halo fans, but the UNSC is a lower tech then the Imperium. The Standard Flak vest can stop a direct hit from a .50 Cal machine gun. (what a Heavy Stubber is) Basic marine armor can't and I'm pretty sure ODST armor can't either, but I'm being generous. So basically the Spartan is a better WS/BS Scout with a 6++. I'm thinking maybe 13ppm.
Weagear: Battle Rifle: Str 3 AP - 24in Rapid Fire. or SMG/ Assault Rifle Str 3 AP - 18in Assault 2. Frag Grenades. CCW. Pistol ( Str 3 12in Pistol)
Here's a tip: Ask yourself whether you want to be "true to fluff" or "true to the terrible stat scale of the wargame."
There's no in-between for these. The statline is so generalized and so shifted towards 3-5 that 6-10 and 1-2 dont even matter in 90% of cases.
If you want to be true to fluff, you can acknolwedge that space marines need much higher stats in a lot of cases, allowing you to do whatever with the spartan.
If you want to adhere to the rigorous crapline of the 40k wargame, you have to acknowledge that:
Straken is S6 with only 1 aug. S7 on the charge.
Sisters of Battle and Vets are BS4 and don't have half the experience, training, or augs that spartans do (SII's have 50 years of direct combat experience).
Veteran Sergeants have A2 Ld9; lowly company commanders have A3 Ld10. Spartans outrank, out-think, out-stubborn, and out-will Company Commanders by a mile.
I4 is human plus a little. I5 is where spartans fit along the crapline - their reflexes are servo+thought-gel+hyper-hud-augmented (+1), as well as genetically and biologically enhanced (another +1).
T4 is spot on; W2 is required.
FNP required.
Drop the invuln save and roll the Shield into 3+ armour.
Battle Rifle relies on precision more than stopping power; to be fluff-accurate, would be S3 AP5 24"/36", Salvo 2/3. SMG would be 12" S3 AP- pistol 3, and able to dual-wield for the pistol fighter.
Comparing the heavy Stubber to a 50cal is perfectly accurate. Assuming the heavy Stubber profile makes contextual sense, however would be fallatic.
tl;dr - if you want to put Spartans into 40K, you must first remove contextual and consistency errors, set the stage for relative comparisons, and alter how hitting and damaging works.
50ppm and squad+army max of 5. They're imperial allies and can take demo charges, operate as characters for other units, have defensive, plasma, and krak grenades, and can steal weapons from models they kill as well as hijack tanks.
chrisrawr wrote:Here's a tip: Ask yourself whether you want to be "true to fluff" or "true to the terrible stat scale of the wargame."
There's no in-between for these. The statline is so generalized and so shifted towards 3-5 that 6-10 and 1-2 dont even matter in 90% of cases.
If you want to be true to fluff, you can acknolwedge that space marines need much higher stats in a lot of cases, allowing you to do whatever with the spartan.
If you want to adhere to the rigorous crapline of the 40k wargame, you have to acknowledge that:
I'm using other models as a rough guide, and Marines IMO are more powerful then a Spartan
Straken is S6 with only 1 aug. S7 on the charge
.
He has a powerfist neurologically grafted to his arm, sound legit str 6 to me.
Sisters of Battle and Vets are BS4 and don't have half the experience, training, or augs that spartans do (SII's have 50 years of direct combat experience).
Again BS 4 seems standard for combat verterans and even Marines with CENTURIES of experience.
Veteran Sergeants have A2 Ld9; lowly company commanders have A3 Ld10. Spartans outrank, out-think, out-stubborn, and out-will Company Commanders by a mile.
IG company commanders have LD 9, and these are men who have lived through battles that make the Covie war look like a small skirmish.
I4 is human plus a little. I5 is where spartans fit along the crapline - their reflexes are servo+thought-gel+hyper-hud-augmented (+1), as well as genetically and biologically enhanced (another +1).
I4 is marine standard. I believe Spartans are slightly inferior to space marines.
T4 is spot on; W2 is required.
Nope. Marines don't have w2 so Spartans won't
FNP required.
Why?
Drop the invuln save and roll the Shield into 3+ armour.
I could do this.
Battle Rifle relies on precision more than stopping power; to be fluff-accurate, would be S3 AP5 24"/36", Salvo 2/3. SMG would be 12" S3 AP- pistol 3, and able to dual-wield for the pistol fighter.
Lasguns in fluff are just as strong and more deadly and sccurate. a Battle Rifle is roughtly a lasgun so it stands at S3 Ap - 24in Rapid Fire. I might make the SMG duel wieldable, but no pistol is more then one shot, iirc.
Comparing the heavy Stubber to a 50cal is perfectly accurate. Assuming the heavy Stubber profile makes contextual sense, however would be fallatic.
It gives me some idea of the capiblities of armor.
tl;dr - if you want to put Spartans into 40K, you must first remove contextual and consistency errors, set the stage for relative comparisons, and alter how hitting and damaging works.
50ppm and squad+army max of 5. They're imperial allies and can take demo charges, operate as characters for other units, have defensive, plasma, and krak grenades, and can steal weapons from models they kill as well as hijack tanks.
Yeah, no. Space Marines are better then spartans if you compare fluff to fluff, and I hate marines. However the basis was a Space Marine Scout as a Sparten, that seems close from a fluff wise perspective. So it then will translate into a slightly better Scout, with slightly worse equipment. You may think Halo Fluff is powerful, but it pales to 40k fluff.
The statlines for the wargame are bogus and do not represent fluff at all.
So to rehash: The suggestions I gave are if you want to get as close to a middle-ground as possible. There is no middle ground, but as limx approaches middle ground, you begin to get things that are more powerful than marine models, because - as I stated - the statlines for the wargame are bogus and do not represent fluff at all.
To the rest of your points: It's not a power fist, it's just some bio-tech implants. It's represented as a power fist because "lol we can". Also, how come "getting angry" is powerful enough to make his multi-laser-strength powerfist into autocannon-strength? Oh, right, because the statlines for the wargame are bogus and do not represent fluff at all.
The reason Vets have the same BS as Marines is because 40K uses a direct comparison of BS to Dice Roll required, and altering it in any significant way means you have to pump marine points, meaning players need less marines, meaning gw sells less marines. The factor, "GW still needs to make money off the game" is important when considering the way they've represented their bogus statlines that do not represent fluff at all.
Company Commanders aren't even bigshots. Spartans are guys that the bigshots don't even know about until they need to work directly with them. Remember: Military chain of command and hierarchy hasn't changed much in 40,000 years. Everyone at the bottom is still mushrooms, and CC's are only a few steps up from the bottom in the run of things.
Here is where we begin diverging in direction: No one is disputing that Warhammer fluff is well over the top of Halo fluff. What I am saying and will continue to say: the statlines for the wargame are bogus and do not represent fluff at all.
It's not about what marine stats are vs what spartan stats are: Marine stats are bogus and the statline is bogus. "Movie Marines" are closer to fluff than marines are by orders of magnitude.
There's also no way to justify the difference between S4 and S5, or S3 and S4, other than "oops I got mad when I ran at you." The difference between a human and A HUMAN THAT CAN WRECK A TANK? getting mad and running.
FNP for medigel. Med kits confer FNP, medigel like having your entire body be inside a medkit. Also, psychological training directed explicitly at forcing their brains to block-out pain.
Lasguns in the fluff can do anything from taking a man's arm off, to bouncing harmlessly off an iron brestplate. Lasguns have no obective measurement for power, whereas we have the stats of both a bolt round and a battle rifle burst, and know exactly how much damage each can inflict. We can compare them better once we get a statline that isn't bogus.
The stubber profile as a .50 cal doesn't make sense because: A) it doesn't ID humans, B) it doesn't have a high enough rate of fire, and C) humans wearing cardboard armour get their saves against it. This is because we have no dynamic way of comparing armour to armour pen, and also because the statlines for the wargame are bogus and do not represent fluff at all.
For your final point, I again assert: No one is saying spartans are better than marines assuming no one has plot armour. The master chief is definitely luckier, and with cortana, would be able to evade and guerilla - but he would be tech-heresied SO fething FAST your nipples would spin.
You're also assuming that the equipment from 40K is significantly better than 2.5k; it isn't. Anything that isn't easily upkept and handed down verbally through rituals has been lost. They're essentially cave-squatters using stone tools, because they're unable to replicate the disgustingly powerful and advanced stuff that was available before the fall.
I MEAN COME ON, BEFORE THE DECLINE OF MAN, WE WERE BUILDING MACHINES THAT WOULD PRESS THE OLD ONES. LEGIONS. LEGIONS OF TITANS WERE SENT OUT WITH COLONY SHIPS. Now, we can barely operate a titan, let alone a legion of them.
So yeah, having been in on much of the fluff reveals of halo, and being a somewhat adequate lore-adept for 40K, I'm much better-equipped to say what you think you're saying than you are (which is to say, I'm agreeing with you, but for different reasons, and your reasons are shallow - I'm not tooting my horn, just pointing out that there's an experience gap here that your post was decidedly disrespectful toward). I'm also saying that the statlines for the wargame are bogus and do not represent fluff at all. Which is what you have to understand if you want to add Spartans to the game. There is NO WAY TO MAKE SPARTANS SUITABLY BETTER THAN HUMANS, WITHOUT MAKING THEM UNSUITABLY BETTER THAN MARINES, BECAUSE the statlines for the wargame are bogus and do not represent fluff at all.
Also, if you wanna compare fluffbombs, there's no weapon in the IoM that comes close to the standard MAC round, which for some reason was given ALMOST SIX ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE more power than it should've been.
This also means that covenant flagship shields are practically immune to anything short of a planet-cracker or voidbomb - seeing as it takes 3 MAC rounds to break through, and each MAC round could completely vaporize a planet - and then some.
My style of building a new models rules is to take something similar to the model, compared its fluff, then using the exsisting models as a guide, modify its stats to reflect the difference. So for me, a Spartan fitting into a 40kTT game would be
WS: 4 BS: 4 S: 4 T: 4 INT: 4 A: 1 Ld: 8 Sv: 4+
With either an Autogun (battle rifle) or an Assault 2 str 3 ap - 18in range SMG that can be duel wielded. Frag Grenade, Krak Grenades(I'm going to assume they have an equivalent) A CCW and a Str 3 Ap - Pistol. All for 13PPM
I downgraded the armor, I don't see MJOLNIR armor on Par with Power Armor. As for Leadership, thats the same leadership as a space marine who has been in service for Centuries its good enough for them Its good enough for a Spartan. I'll also throw in something smiler to ATSKNF for the Spartans, something lore specific.
I went into this thinking "Oh god, Halo fanboy bullcrap incoming". Instead, I find a nice balanced statline that I would be happy to play against. My only complaint is WS 4, I thought spartans (save the chief, 'cause he's Leet) were kinda sucky in H2H (going from the first statline, the one with the 6++). Otherwise it is a massive, massive from me, a self confessed Halo anti-fan. Kudos.
The statlines for the wargame are bogus and do not represent fluff at all.
Seriously? You're honestly...
I can't believe you just said that. To a degree, you're right. But that is not true, otherwise orks, guardsmen , marines and Eldar would all share the same statline.
@OP Stick with the first stat line. Spartans don't need FNP, a 3+ save or anything like SM. They are not SM. The 4+/6++ was a good idea. Sure, the stat lines might not be 100% fluffy, but you have to try and make it fit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Wait wait wait, 2 wounds? Spartans "need" two wounds? No, just no. FNP required, 3+ save... Yeah, no. not happening. Not a good idea.
Actually FNP makes sense with the medigel or what ever it's called. Otherwise, I'm more or less fine with the statline in the OP, it's not the statline I'd imagine, but it's fine by me.
Really? I suppose it's a 5+ but that makes them more durable than a SM with a 4+/5+++. Id say a 5+5+++ would be fair, but then the amount of AP5 weaponry means I'm wrong.
4+/FNP then, without the 6++ (although I liked the 6++), I think that sounds fair.
Righto, if you're going to use Space Marines as a comparison, we have to acknowledge that no mere human, no matter how well-trained, deserves a 4 in any stat, and indeed, S4 is mighty.
S4 is representative of Servos capable of lifting many-tonne spaceship parts. It's representative of a 2-tonne suit of armour with a 200 pound fist smashing you at over 100 miles an hour. It's representative of the awesome might of mechanical systems and stresses, which would tear normal human tissue to pieces.
T4 is representative of the multiple redundancies that go into a Space Marine's physiology. It's representative of the steroids and god-seed present in their systems. T4 represents the ability to be shot by a modern-day tank and keep trucking, with or without power armour.
WS4 represents decades, if not centuries, of training in the arts martial, the arts combative, and the firearm arts. It represents dozens, if not hundreds, of campaigns and victories. It also represents the power of the black carapace to aid and assist, and indeed enhance, their very minds and senses far beyond any mere mortals.
BS4 represents, again, the enhanced senses and abilities brought by the carapace, their geneseed, and their power armour's ability to negate all recoil from any weapon smaller than a battle cannon. Servos are awesome.
Ld8 represents a space marine's unshakable will in the face of decades of atrocity.
I4 and A1 represents a space marine's incredible machine-enhanced speed and lethality - able to kill a man simply by walking over him, able to plant precision blows without stopping in his advance, the space marine is a terror.
Sv3+ represents the tank-like armour of the space marine. Able to easily survive a fullisade of laserbeams, shrapnel, plasma, and worse, the space marine is at home in his role as a storm-trooper and walking war machine.
With this in mind, my new proposed statline for humans and spartans.
chrisrawr wrote:Righto, if you're going to use Space Marines as a comparison, we have to acknowledge that no mere human, no matter how well-trained, deserves a 4 in any stat, and indeed, S4 is mighty.
S4 is representative of Servos capable of lifting many-tonne spaceship parts. It's representative of a 2-tonne suit of armour with a 200 pound fist smashing you at over 100 miles an hour. It's representative of the awesome might of mechanical systems and stresses, which would tear normal human tissue to pieces.
T4 is representative of the multiple redundancies that go into a Space Marine's physiology. It's representative of the steroids and god-seed present in their systems. T4 represents the ability to be shot by a modern-day tank and keep trucking, with or without power armour.
WS4 represents decades, if not centuries, of training in the arts martial, the arts combative, and the firearm arts. It represents dozens, if not hundreds, of campaigns and victories. It also represents the power of the black carapace to aid and assist, and indeed enhance, their very minds and senses far beyond any mere mortals.
BS4 represents, again, the enhanced senses and abilities brought by the carapace, their geneseed, and their power armour's ability to negate all recoil from any weapon smaller than a battle cannon. Servos are awesome.
Ld8 represents a space marine's unshakable will in the face of decades of atrocity.
What?
I4 and A1 represents a space marine's incredible machine-enhanced speed and lethality - able to kill a man simply by walking over him, able to plant precision blows without stopping in his advance, the space marine is a terror.
Sv3+ represents the tank-like armour of the space marine. Able to easily survive a fullisade of laserbeams, shrapnel, plasma, and worse, the space marine is at home in his role as a storm-trooper and walking war machine.
With this in mind, my new proposed statline for humans and spartans.
Righto, if you're going to use Space Marines as a comparison, we have to acknowledge that no mere human, no matter how well-trained, deserves a 4 in any stat, and indeed, S4 is mighty.
S4 is representative of Servos capable of lifting many-tonne spaceship parts. It's representative of a 2-tonne suit of armour with a 200 pound fist smashing you at over 100 miles an hour. It's representative of the awesome might of mechanical systems and stresses, which would tear normal human tissue to pieces.
T4 is representative of the multiple redundancies that go into a Space Marine's physiology. It's representative of the steroids and god-seed present in their systems. T4 represents the ability to be shot by a modern-day tank and keep trucking, with or without power armour.
WS4 represents decades, if not centuries, of training in the arts martial, the arts combative, and the firearm arts. It represents dozens, if not hundreds, of campaigns and victories. It also represents the power of the black carapace to aid and assist, and indeed enhance, their very minds and senses far beyond any mere mortals.
BS4 represents, again, the enhanced senses and abilities brought by the carapace, their geneseed, and their power armour's ability to negate all recoil from any weapon smaller than a battle cannon. Servos are awesome.
Ld8 represents a space marine's unshakable will in the face of decades of atrocity.
I4 and A1 represents a space marine's incredible machine-enhanced speed and lethality - able to kill a man simply by walking over him, able to plant precision blows without stopping in his advance, the space marine is a terror.
Sv3+ represents the tank-like armour of the space marine. Able to easily survive a fullisade of laserbeams, shrapnel, plasma, and worse, the space marine is at home in his role as a storm-trooper and walking war machine.
With this in mind, my new proposed statline for humans and spartans.
Lasgun: S1 AP10 range 24" rapidfire
Bolter: S3 AP6 range 24" rapidfire
Heavy Bolter: S4 AP5 range 36" assault 5 for space marines, heavy 3 for everyone else.
Battle Rifle: S2 AP7 range24 assault 3
SMG: S1.5 AP8 Range18 assault 3, 2 = assault 5
And now everyone can be happy.
He has a point, the tabletop vs fluff really doesn't balance well >> Though to be fair the fluff doesn't balance either, but hey thats sci-fi (as is halo). Now, baring in mind that they're 2 sci-fi worlds ruled by cool (with the exception of a few nice little psuedo-science bits), SOME of the proposed changes make sense, In terms of the invuln save, how about something along the lines of 5+/3++ FNP, with a special rule, after he fails the 3++, but before FNP, for the next turn he loses the 3++ (as in the shield going down). Turn after that, if still alive gets it back. Seem fair?
Im not gonna touch the rest of it yet before thinking thruogh a bit more. Hope this helped
The thing is, his shield isn't really an invuln save. It doesn't act like one at all. Invuln saves are forcefields that can withstand almost any damage, with failure being more due to power-source, old equipment, or sustained assault. Halo's shields are kinetic energy absorbers - they're literally a field of energy that absorbs the energy of other things, disperses it over the entire shield, and shuts down before the nuclear backpack fueling it overheats.
With enough power and surface area, spartan shields become almost invincible - a dozen large-scale fusion reactors from 40K would be enough to charge a planet-wide forcefield, able to repel even exterminatus (based on the stats we have for mac rounds, covenant shields and covenant energy systems, and 40k fusion reactors).
Anyways, it's more like ablative armour. Something similar to what you proposed, but minus invuln - 3+/4+ save, failing the 3+ pops it down to 4+ for the next game turn, then back up to 3+. Something like a melta will simply power through it - meltaguns are comparable to a beam/swath of channeled Wraith Blast from Halo.
The fluff balances pretty well i you can get rid of of enough plot holes, and get stats on enough things that you can piece together what's missing.
chrisrawr wrote:The thing is, his shield isn't really an invuln save. It doesn't act like one at all. Invuln saves are forcefields that can withstand almost any damage, with failure being more due to power-source, old equipment, or sustained assault. Halo's shields are kinetic energy absorbers - they're literally a field of energy that absorbs the energy of other things, disperses it over the entire shield, and shuts down before the nuclear backpack fueling it overheats.
With enough power and surface area, spartan shields become almost invincible - a dozen large-scale fusion reactors from 40K would be enough to charge a planet-wide forcefield, able to repel even exterminatus (based on the stats we have for mac rounds, covenant shields and covenant energy systems, and 40k fusion reactors).
Anyways, it's more like ablative armour. Something similar to what you proposed, but minus invuln - 3+/4+ save, failing the 3+ pops it down to 4+ for the next game turn, then back up to 3+. Something like a melta will simply power through it - meltaguns are comparable to a beam/swath of channeled Wraith Blast from Halo.
The fluff balances pretty well i you can get rid of of enough plot holes, and get stats on enough things that you can piece together what's missing.
True, but take into account the fluff and game dont balance with halo either. In the game the shield can get ripped up like that due to it being dispersed evenly across all the Armour, in the fluff the shield can be directed at specific points to intensify it, but leaving vulnerable in other areas.
Edit: granted though, suppose is an argument of points too. depending how the rest is worked out, id call the invuln worth more points than an armour save, if it gets too over the top the armour save would work fine. plus it depends what were going for, OP posted PPM and theoretical stats for something, by the luck of it, thats weak enough to be used in bulk. I guess were assuming the use of something along the line of wolf guard or sanguine priests
LunaHound wrote:Kasrkin are 4+, im sure spartan armor have 3+
chrisrawr, you are wise :]
IDK about that, Kasrkin Carapace Armour covers the entire body and can resist bolter fire in game. Could MC honestly survive a krak grenade to the chest or a heavy bolter round to the chest? Besides the invul save (I assume it represents the shielding) probably makes up for the inferior armour save to an extent.
So a grenade launcher (brute shot) is similar to a riffle that unloads mini rockets (unless thats changed from 5th ed to 6th ed) that explode once embeded into a target instead of when it brushes up against them? Im sorry but if a spartan took a bolter shot it would be completely different then a brute shot shot.
liquidjoshi wrote:I went into this thinking "Oh god, Halo fanboy bullcrap incoming". Instead, I find a nice balanced statline that I would be happy to play against. My only complaint is WS 4, I thought spartans (save the chief, 'cause he's Leet) were kinda sucky in H2H (going from the first statline, the one with the 6++). Otherwise it is a massive, massive from me, a self confessed Halo anti-fan. Kudos.
Thanks, While i enjoy Halo I am by no means a FanBoy.
LunaHound wrote:Kasrkin are 4+, im sure spartan armor have 3+
chrisrawr, you are wise :]
Think of the Differnet Tech levels. Power armor is extremely bulky and made of Sci-materials, MJOLNIR is no where near as bulky, and covers about the same area as Carapace armor. Which is not powered, and can be worn by a standard human without being crippled by moving your pinkie.
King Pariah wrote:Actually FNP makes sense with the medigel or what ever it's called. Otherwise, I'm more or less fine with the statline in the OP, it's not the statline I'd imagine, but it's fine by me.
Space Marines have some SPACE MAGIC mumbojumbo that gives them advanced healing , and they don't have the FNPUSR.
chrisrawr wrote:
Spoiler:
Righto, if you're going to use Space Marines as a comparison, we have to acknowledge that no mere human, no matter how well-trained, deserves a 4 in any stat, and indeed, S4 is mighty.
S4 is representative of Servos capable of lifting many-tonne spaceship parts. It's representative of a 2-tonne suit of armour with a 200 pound fist smashing you at over 100 miles an hour. It's representative of the awesome might of mechanical systems and stresses, which would tear normal human tissue to pieces.
T4 is representative of the multiple redundancies that go into a Space Marine's physiology. It's representative of the steroids and god-seed present in their systems. T4 represents the ability to be shot by a modern-day tank and keep trucking, with or without power armour.
WS4 represents decades, if not centuries, of training in the arts martial, the arts combative, and the firearm arts. It represents dozens, if not hundreds, of campaigns and victories. It also represents the power of the black carapace to aid and assist, and indeed enhance, their very minds and senses far beyond any mere mortals.
BS4 represents, again, the enhanced senses and abilities brought by the carapace, their geneseed, and their power armour's ability to negate all recoil from any weapon smaller than a battle cannon. Servos are awesome.
Ld8 represents a space marine's unshakable will in the face of decades of atrocity.
I4 and A1 represents a space marine's incredible machine-enhanced speed and lethality - able to kill a man simply by walking over him, able to plant precision blows without stopping in his advance, the space marine is a terror.
Sv3+ represents the tank-like armour of the space marine. Able to easily survive a fullisade of laserbeams, shrapnel, plasma, and worse, the space marine is at home in his role as a storm-trooper and walking war machine.
With this in mind, my new proposed statline for humans and spartans.
Lasgun: S1 AP10 range 24" rapidfire
Bolter: S3 AP6 range 24" rapidfire
Heavy Bolter: S4 AP5 range 36" assault 5 for space marines, heavy 3 for everyone else.
Battle Rifle: S2 AP7 range24 assault 3
SMG: S1.5 AP8 Range18 assault 3, 2 = assault 5
And now everyone can be happy.
Yeah, except unlike most fan made models I try to stay withing the established range of stats. I compare two like things, then use the already existing ones stats to create a new model. I feel that's better then arbitrarily assigning values because their awesome. Like if I man a UNSC Marine it would have a basic Guardsman stats. Only with s 6+ save since I feel that their armor is inferior to Flak.
doc1234 wrote:
He has a point, the tabletop vs fluff really doesn't balance well >> Though to be fair the fluff doesn't balance either, but hey thats sci-fi (as is halo). Now, baring in mind that they're 2 sci-fi worlds ruled by cool (with the exception of a few nice little psuedo-science bits), SOME of the proposed changes make sense, In terms of the invuln save, how about something along the lines of 5+/3++ FNP, with a special rule, after he fails the 3++, but before FNP, for the next turn he loses the 3++ (as in the shield going down). Turn after that, if still alive gets it back. Seem fair?
Im not gonna touch the rest of it yet before thinking thruogh a bit more. Hope this helped
Yeah its hard to compare fluff to fluff, but this is my interpretation of the stats, you can use what ever you want. Spartans maybe top dogs in Halo, but in 40k they would be pretty average stat wise.
doc1234 wrote:Seriously? is this going to degenerate into a "my franchise is more awesome and overthe top than yours" argument?
I hope not, I'm a fan of both, however I feel that 40k would curb stomp Halo.
In the Fall of Reach, Cortana states that the Chief's shields "can't take more than a few 30mm rounds". Moments later, he tanks a point-blank explosion from an anti-tank missile fired at him from a jet fighter. The blast depletes his shields and sprangs his ankle, but otherwise he's fine.
A standard bolter round is apparently .75 caliber. I don't know how that compares to a 30mm round, but a quick wiki search states that 30mm rounds are anti-vehicle rounds, and are usually used by helicopters, tanks, jeeps etc for light anti-armor.Combining that with his armor tanking the missile strike, I'd say that it's more than durable enough to handle bolter rounds.
edit- Did another quick search. Apparently a 30mm round is bigger than a .75 caliber round.
So anyway, not trying to derail the thread or turn this into a Halo vs. WH40K thing- just throwing some info out there that you might find helpful. Spartans might not be as weak compared to Marines as some would think.
BlaxicanX wrote:Can Spartan armor take bolter rounds?
Dunno.
In the Fall of Reach, Cortana states that the Chief's shields "can't take more than a few 30mm rounds". Moments later, he tanks a point-blank explosion from an anti-tank missile fired at him from a jet fighter. The blast depletes his shields and sprangs his ankle, but otherwise he's fine.
A standard bolter round is apparently .75 caliber. I don't know how that compares to a 30mm round, but a quick wiki search states that 30mm rounds are anti-vehicle rounds, and are usually used by helicopters, tanks, jeeps etc for light anti-armor.Combining that with his armor tanking the missile strike, I'd say that it's more than durable enough to handle bolter rounds.
edit- Did another quick search. Apparently a 30mm round is bigger than a .75 caliber round.
So anyway, not trying to derail the thread or turn this into a Halo vs. WH40K thing- just throwing some info out there that you might find helpful. Spartans might not be as weak compared to Marines as some would think.
You didn't factor in the magic of plot armour. Chief can and will survive almost anything thrown at him because he's the main character.
So, don't forget Spartans can punch through tanks. How are you going to represent that if they are only S4?
Armor save is terrible, should be 3+/4++ at least.
Battle Rifle fires exploding AP rounds, so S3 AP- is awful; not to mention awful all around. S4 AP5 Assault 3 is what I would suggest at least.
50ppm and squad+army max of 5. They're imperial allies and can take demo charges, operate as characters for other units, have defensive, plasma, and krak grenades, and can steal weapons from models they kill as well as hijack tanks.
I like this much better than the 'balanced' version you appear to be going for.
Also, really Kasrkin armor better than Spartan armor that requires a mechanical armature to even put on and weighs 1000lbs? Wtf kind of joke is this? Spartan armor is AT LEAST as effective as Space Marine Power Armor, and likely better considering its integrated shielding system. A 'standard' human CANNOT wear Spartan armor, and can't even equip it without bio modification.
Chris is the only one in here who seems to have any idea what he is talking about.
In case you all missed the memo, 40k tech is built on the back of centuries of handed down religious rites to create things, I wouldn't necessarily call some of it 'high-tech' anymore. Also, stat lines, like Chris stated before, aren't even close to fluff. I wish Space Marines were closer to how they are represented in the fiction, but then GW would sell a lot less models.
I am a big fan of both universes, and I'd say my lore knowledge of each is pretty broad.
My quick statline, in my personal opinion they should be closer to an Assassin rather than a Space Marine, other than they share similar armor saves
Special rules: Regenerating shield, hijack, weapon-grab, move through cover, stealth
Regenerating shield: 4++ to start, once a save is made, it changes to 5++, once another save is made 6++, if a save is made at 6++ the shield is exhausted. The shield regenerates at the beginning of the next player turn
hijack: When in B2B contact with an enemy vehicle, the Spartan can attempt to wrest control of the vehicle. On a 4+ the Spartan steals the vehicle and is removed from play temporarily, as he is in control of the enemy vehicle. The controlling player can choose to relinquish control of the vehicle and come back onto the board using disembarkation rules, and the vehicle is wrecked. If the vehicle is wrecked while the Spartan is inside, he must disembark.
weapon-grab: When a Spartan is in play, place a token where an enemy squad with a special weapon has been killed. On the Spartan controlling player's turn, he may choose to pick up a dropped special weapon and use it for that shooting phase. After the shooting phase is over, the Spartan discards the special weapon due to it being out of ammunition, low on power, etc.
daedalus-templarius wrote:So, don't forget Spartans can punch through tanks. How are you going to represent that if they are only S4?
By having them punch tanks. All attacks are resolved against the rear armour meaning S4 can easily glance a vehicle with AV10 rear (almost all vehicles sans Monoliths, Land Raiders, and some types of Leman Russ) to death. A squad with 20 attacks, all hit, 3.333 glances, depletes the hull points of any vehicle sans Monoliths and Land Raiders. They sure as hell shouldn't be given str 6 or str 8, since it blows their power against infantry way out of proportion.
daedalus-templarius wrote:So, don't forget Spartans can punch through tanks. How are you going to represent that if they are only S4?
By having them punch tanks. All attacks are resolved against the rear armour meaning S4 can easily glance a vehicle with AV10 rear (almost all vehicles sans Monoliths, Land Raiders, and some types of Leman Russ) to death. A squad with 20 attacks, all hit, 3.333 glances, depletes the hull points of any vehicle sans Monoliths and Land Raiders. They sure as hell shouldn't be given str 6 or str 8, since it blows their power against infantry way out of proportion.
Well, Spartan's don't operate in squads of 5. They would likely each be an Independent character/character. Space Marine strength should be higher anyway, imo.
daedalus-templarius wrote:Armor save is terrible, should be 3+/4++ at least.
Nope, marine armour is the gak, there is a reason that the only things that can penetrate it are anti-tank weapons, or specialized anti-power armour weapons. An Iron Halo pushes things even further, to the point where you have a 50/50 chance of surviving a hit from anything.
Battle Rifle fires exploding AP rounds, so S3 AP- is awful; not to mention awful all around. S4 AP5 Assault 3 is what I would suggest at least.
A bolter fires 20mm armour piercing gyro-jet shells, yet is only Str 4 AP 5, a lasgun can tear a man's arm off with a single hit. Perhaps Str 3 AP 5, assault 1/heavy 2 (one or the other, decide before shooting).
50ppm and squad+army max of 5. They're imperial allies and can take demo charges, operate as characters for other units, have defensive, plasma, and krak grenades, and can steal weapons from models they kill as well as hijack tanks.
Only if you agree to play with movie marines that are WS:5 BS:5 S:5 T:5 W:2 I:5 A:2 Ld:10 Sv: 3+/5++ with terminator armour giving them +1 toughness and a 2+ armour save. There is a reason marines don't have a fluffy stat line, if they did no one would enjoy playing them.
I like this much better than the 'balanced' version you appear to be going for.
So one should sacrifice 'balance' for fluff. Good luck finding people to play with you.
Also, really Kasrkin armor better than Spartan armor that requires a mechanical armature to even put on and weighs 1000lbs? Wtf kind of joke is this? Spartan armor is AT LEAST as effective as Space Marine Power Armor, and likely better considering its integrated shielding system. A 'standard' human CANNOT wear Spartan armor, and can't even equip it without bio modification.
LOL, space marine armour is gak, all human tech in Halo really is, they still use the exact same cartridge modern rifles do 500 later for the love of god. The difference between a 4+ save and a 3+ save is quite a bit, a 4+ save can protect against a 20mm AP high explosive rocket shell, but fails against the much large heavy bolter shot. Also, good thing Storm Troopers aren't really normal humans, they are pushed to the absolute limit of what a normal human can reach and many receive even further augmentation.
Chris is the only one in here who seems to have any idea what he is talking about.
Chris and I disagree considerably on what is considered "balanced" so that does little to boost your argument in my eyes. Nothing against you Chris, just that we frequently disagree on what is considered balanced.
I
n case you all missed the memo, 40k tech is built on the back of centuries of handed down religious rites to create things, I wouldn't necessarily call some of it 'high-tech' anymore. Also, stat lines, like Chris stated before, aren't even close to fluff. I wish Space Marines were closer to how they are represented in the fiction, but then GW would sell a lot less models.
If marines were fluffy no one would enjoy playing them. "Oh, I charge your 5 marines with my 50 guardsmen and die in 2 turns." "Oh, it only took me 5 plasma gun shots to bring down your terminator." "Oh, your marines can choose whether or not to pass morale checks."
I am a big fan of both universes, and I'd say my lore knowledge of each is pretty broad.
Have you ever read a Black Library book or played the Space Marine vidya game? That is what a fluffy marine is, someone who can literally tear through hundreds of warriors bigger and stronger than humans in close combat. Hell, even ignoring BL and games, the background behind Black Reach is Sicarius leading a single company to slaughter thousands of Orks, which means he achieved at the bare minimum a 10 to 1 kill/death ratio against giant super soldiers including killing a Warboss, which makes the biggest Brute chieftain look like a wimp.
TBH Marine -1 stats are fairly descent, but make the whole idea of making rules meaningless. If you want to make them one man killing machines, make them a special character. Generic Spartan #111 can't take a tank round to the chest, but MC can because he has plot armour. It is the same reason a lascannon will vaporize a terminator, but Calgar can take one to the face and be just fine.
So, if you want to play spartans as a unit, just play marines and model them like spartans, if you want a special character like MC than you actually have a project.
Buttons wrote:
Have you ever read a Black Library book or played the Space Marine vidya game? That is what a fluffy marine is, someone who can literally tear through hundreds of warriors bigger and stronger than humans in close combat. Hell, even ignoring BL and games, the background behind Black Reach is Sicarius leading a single company to slaughter thousands of Orks, which means he achieved at the bare minimum a 10 to 1 kill/death ratio against giant super soldiers including killing a Warboss, which makes the biggest Brute chieftain look like a wimp.
TBH Marine -1 stats are fairly descent, but make the whole idea of making rules meaningless. If you want to make them one man killing machines, make them a special character. Generic Spartan #111 can't take a tank round to the chest, but MC can because he has plot armour. It is the same reason a lascannon will vaporize a terminator, but Calgar can take one to the face and be just fine.
So, if you want to play spartans as a unit, just play marines and model them like spartans, if you want a special character like MC than you actually have a project.
Yes I've read almost all of them, and played through Space Marine plenty. I think marines are poorly stat'd in the tabletop game for how they are portrayed.
Obviously we disagree how we'd run a Spartan, but like I said I'd start with a Vindicare and make modifications.
daedalus-templarius wrote:So, don't forget Spartans can punch through tanks. How are you going to represent that if they are only S4?
So can marines, and lo and behold they are S4...
Armor save is terrible, should be 3+/4++ at least.
What? Are you serious. No, just no, thats is rediculous. My Spartans will stand at a 4+ save
Battle Rifle fires exploding AP rounds, so S3 AP- is awful; not to mention awful all around. S4 AP5 Assault 3 is what I would suggest at least.
Lasgun cause explosions as they evaporate the water in your cells, Blow your head off you torso, and, have nearly unlimited range in the fluff, so Battle Rifle will stand at current stats.
I like this much better than the 'balanced' version you appear to be going for.
Then design your own "Fluffy" spartans, and ignore the concepts of GW game design.
Also, really Kasrkin armor better than Spartan armor that requires a mechanical armature to even put on and weighs 1000lbs? Wtf kind of joke is this? Spartan armor is AT LEAST as effective as Space Marine Power Armor, and likely better considering its integrated shielding system. A 'standard' human CANNOT wear Spartan armor, and can't even equip it without bio modification.
Well, Its because Halo is lower tech then 40k.
Chris is the only one in here who seems to have any idea what he is talking about.
Right if your completely ignoring game design.
In case you all missed the memo, 40k tech is built on the back of centuries of handed down religious rites to create things, I wouldn't necessarily call some of it 'high-tech' anymore. Also, stat lines, like Chris stated before, aren't even close to fluff. I wish Space Marines were closer to how they are represented in the fiction, but then GW would sell a lot less models.
Right, but I'm not making FLUFFY spartans, I'm making Spartans as how they'd would appear using GW's design philosophy.
I am a big fan of both universes, and I'd say my lore knowledge of each is pretty broad.
So am I.
My quick statline, in my personal opinion they should be closer to an Assassin rather than a Space Marine, other than they share similar armor saves
See this is where fanboys need to leave their fanboyism at the door when creating a 40k equivilent. You take something that is roughtly equivilent in Fluff. (A Spartan and a Space Marine Scout) and use the existing model as a guide.
Special rules: Regenerating shield, hijack, weapon-grab, move through cover, stealth
I'll go over these one by one.
Regenerating shield: 4++ to start, once a save is made, it changes to 5++, once another save is made 6++, if a save is made at 6++ the shield is exhausted. The shield regenerates at the beginning of the next player turn
No, the shield isn't 4++ strong, it isn't a 6++ it augments the lower tech weaker armor into a 4+ sv
hijack: When in B2B contact with an enemy vehicle, the Spartan can attempt to wrest control of the vehicle. On a 4+ the Spartan steals the vehicle and is removed from play temporarily, as he is in control of the enemy vehicle. The controlling player can choose to relinquish control of the vehicle and come back onto the board using disembarkation rules, and the vehicle is wrecked. If the vehicle is wrecked while the Spartan is inside, he must disembark.
Marines and standard humans do this in 40k fluff but don't have this idotic rule.
weapon-grab: When a Spartan is in play, place a token where an enemy squad with a special weapon has been killed. On the Spartan controlling player's turn, he may choose to pick up a dropped special weapon and use it for that shooting phase. After the shooting phase is over, the Spartan discards the special weapon due to it being out of ammunition, low on power, etc.
Standard humans and marines do this in the fluff, its pointless and slows the game down. So no.
What? Buttons I don't even know what you consider balanced. For me, balanced is "3's across with a 3 weapons is 3 points". The IG then pay a 2 point premium for orders and grenades, which is a steal.
After that, I prefer overcosting as opposed to undercosting, and after that, I prefer models with exploitable weaknesses that encourage interactive gameplay rather than binary units that have to be destroyed to be neutralized, or that only perform one function.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote: Well, Its because Halo is lower tech then 40k.
Please, explain this to me?
Just because its the year 40k, doesn't mean the technical levels are wildly different.
If it was 20k, then sure, because that was the dark age of technology, where humanity was massively advanced to likely forerunner-esque status. Now technology in 40k has fallen into massive disrepair where there is no advancement or new knowledge, just the loss of existing knowledge because everything is of religious rote.
Halo energy shields are based on Covenant tech, which is based on Forerunner tech, which is more advanced than IoM. They have railguns, they have plasma guns, etc; these things exist in 40k. Battle rifle shoots exploding bullets as well, just not of the same caliber as a Bolter. They are armor piercing.
Doesn't sound like you're as familiar with the universe as you think. I'm laughing at energy shields and layered adamantium/titanium armor that has to be put onto a biologically enhanced soldier with an armature being 'lower tech'... its like the same damn thing as a space marine.
Also, calling my rules idiotic; good discussion skills.
Buttons wrote:
Have you ever read a Black Library book or played the Space Marine vidya game? That is what a fluffy marine is, someone who can literally tear through hundreds of warriors bigger and stronger than humans in close combat. Hell, even ignoring BL and games, the background behind Black Reach is Sicarius leading a single company to slaughter thousands of Orks, which means he achieved at the bare minimum a 10 to 1 kill/death ratio against giant super soldiers including killing a Warboss, which makes the biggest Brute chieftain look like a wimp.
TBH Marine -1 stats are fairly descent, but make the whole idea of making rules meaningless. If you want to make them one man killing machines, make them a special character. Generic Spartan #111 can't take a tank round to the chest, but MC can because he has plot armour. It is the same reason a lascannon will vaporize a terminator, but Calgar can take one to the face and be just fine.
So, if you want to play spartans as a unit, just play marines and model them like spartans, if you want a special character like MC than you actually have a project.
Yes I've read almost all of them, and played through Space Marine plenty. I think marines are poorly stat'd in the tabletop game for how they are portrayed.
Obviously we disagree how we'd run a Spartan, but like I said I'd start with a Vindicare and make modifications.
As I stated if marines were fluffy on the TT than no one would enjoy playing marines unless they also played marines (in which case it might as well be called Marinehammer, which sounds like a fun skirmish game, but not good for such a large scale).
daedalus-templarius wrote:
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote: Well, Its because Halo is lower tech then 40k.
Please, explain this to me?
As I explained they are simply less advanced in terms of military technology, while the mainstay of Halo Humanity is the assault rifle, which is chambered in 7.62 NATO, the IG uses the Lasgun, which is generally portrayed as equal to or superior to modern rifles in terms of damage, but is extremely reliable, the bolter on the other hand is less reliable, but getting shot by one is like getting shot by a 14.5mm machinegun round, it will kill a normal human outright, and will punch through almost any body armour, a heavy bolter is more akin to a full fledged autocannon round than machinegun (the closest equivalent to an HMG in WH40K is the heavy stubber, which has inferior damage and penetration to a heavy bolter by far). Regular power armour requires dedicated AT weapons (Lascannon, Krak Missiles) or specialized anti-power armour weapons (Hot-shot Lasgun, that special Sternguard ammo, plasma guns could go either way) to be defeated without relying on volume fire. Overall, Spartans and Marines simply have inferior equipment to Astartes and Guardsmen. This doesn't include rarer equipment such as terminator armour, artificer armour, or storm shields, which offer a whole different level of protection.
Master Chief may have the statline of an Assassin, but hes a huge badass who fights entire armies on his own. Generic Spartans are no where near as elite, and they LOST their war with the covenant....
Honestly I think Spartans are most comparable to Battle Sisters. Human Strength and Toughness, good training, and great armor.
Buttons wrote:
As I explained they are simply less advanced in terms of military technology, while the mainstay of Halo Humanity is the assault rifle, which is chambered in 7.62 NATO, the IG uses the Lasgun, which is generally portrayed as equal to or superior to modern rifles in terms of damage, but is extremely reliable, the bolter on the other hand is less reliable, but getting shot by one is like getting shot by a 14.5mm machinegun round, it will kill a normal human outright, and will punch through almost any body armour, a heavy bolter is more akin to a full fledged autocannon round than machinegun (the closest equivalent to an HMG in WH40K is the heavy stubber, which has inferior damage and penetration to a heavy bolter by far). Regular power armour requires dedicated AT weapons (Lascannon, Krak Missiles) or specialized anti-power armour weapons (Hot-shot Lasgun, that special Sternguard ammo, plasma guns could go either way) to be defeated without relying on volume fire. Overall, Spartans and Marines simply have inferior equipment to Astartes and Guardsmen. This doesn't include rarer equipment such as terminator armour, artificer armour, or storm shields, which offer a whole different level of protection.
Trust me, I'm very familiar with what a bolter is capable of; although in fluff it certainly seems much more effective than it is on the tabletop.
As for dealing with terminator armor and artificer armor, you're right; I don't think a AR or Battle Rifle would cut it. But they have railguns, lasers (equiv lascannon but more mobile), plasma weaponry, etc. I'm not saying it wouldn't be difficult, but those things wouldn't be a total foil to their effective weaponry. Storm Shields are totally badass though; they'd have a hard as hell time getting around that sans flanking.
akaean wrote:Master Chief may have the statline of an Assassin, but hes a huge badass who fights entire armies on his own. Generic Spartans are no where near as elite, and they LOST their war with the covenant....
Honestly I think Spartans are most comparable to Battle Sisters. Human Strength and Toughness, good training, and great armor.
Human strength, but they can punch apart tanks? I don't understand.
Buttons wrote:
As I explained they are simply less advanced in terms of military technology, while the mainstay of Halo Humanity is the assault rifle, which is chambered in 7.62 NATO, the IG uses the Lasgun, which is generally portrayed as equal to or superior to modern rifles in terms of damage, but is extremely reliable, the bolter on the other hand is less reliable, but getting shot by one is like getting shot by a 14.5mm machinegun round, it will kill a normal human outright, and will punch through almost any body armour, a heavy bolter is more akin to a full fledged autocannon round than machinegun (the closest equivalent to an HMG in WH40K is the heavy stubber, which has inferior damage and penetration to a heavy bolter by far). Regular power armour requires dedicated AT weapons (Lascannon, Krak Missiles) or specialized anti-power armour weapons (Hot-shot Lasgun, that special Sternguard ammo, plasma guns could go either way) to be defeated without relying on volume fire. Overall, Spartans and Marines simply have inferior equipment to Astartes and Guardsmen. This doesn't include rarer equipment such as terminator armour, artificer armour, or storm shields, which offer a whole different level of protection.
Trust me, I'm very familiar with what a bolter is capable of; although in fluff it certainly seems much more effective than it is on the tabletop.
As for dealing with terminator armor and artificer armor, you're right; I don't think a AR or Battle Rifle would cut it. But they have railguns, lasers (equiv lascannon but more mobile), plasma weaponry, etc. I'm not saying it wouldn't be difficult, but those things wouldn't be a total foil to their effective weaponry. Storm Shields are totally badass though; they'd have a hard as hell time getting around that sans flanking.
Still, in order to punch through such equipment, Spartans require heavy weapons, both railguns and spartan lasers can't really be grabbed by a normal man and carried around on their back during battle, while the Imperium has infantry weapons (although frequently dangerous to the user and difficult to produce) that can punch through power armour, whether it is a hot-shot lasgun, vengence bolter shells, or a plasma gun.
Buttons wrote:
Still, in order to punch through such equipment, Spartans require heavy weapons, both railguns and spartan lasers can't really be grabbed by a normal man and carried around on their back during battle, while the Imperium has infantry weapons (although frequently dangerous to the user and difficult to produce) that can punch through power armour, whether it is a hot-shot lasgun, vengence bolter shells, or a plasma gun.
I agree.
In a skirmish between UNSC Marines backed by Spartans, and Imperial Guard backed by Space Marines; I have no doubt in my mind that the IoM would stomp all over the UNSC.
However, I have been angling my argument towards the individual capability of a Spartan on the battlefield, and what he/she would be capable of bringing to the table. Also, I don't think the technological barrier to be as significant as some do; but the deployment and capability of the IoM in that regard, as you stated, is superior.
Plasma weaponry I'd probably say is broadly similar, in terms of how it performs in the fluff of both series, and can be used by regular grunts. However, they'd have to loot a covenant weapons depot before the battle Pretty sure shooting an AR at a Terminator armor'd Space Marine would be effectively the same as shooting at a Hunter in Halo, and by that I mean it would do nothing but plink off.
Buttons wrote:
As I explained they are simply less advanced in terms of military technology, while the mainstay of Halo Humanity is the assault rifle, which is chambered in 7.62 NATO, the IG uses the Lasgun, which is generally portrayed as equal to or superior to modern rifles in terms of damage, but is extremely reliable, the bolter on the other hand is less reliable, but getting shot by one is like getting shot by a 14.5mm machinegun round, it will kill a normal human outright, and will punch through almost any body armour, a heavy bolter is more akin to a full fledged autocannon round than machinegun (the closest equivalent to an HMG in WH40K is the heavy stubber, which has inferior damage and penetration to a heavy bolter by far). Regular power armour requires dedicated AT weapons (Lascannon, Krak Missiles) or specialized anti-power armour weapons (Hot-shot Lasgun, that special Sternguard ammo, plasma guns could go either way) to be defeated without relying on volume fire. Overall, Spartans and Marines simply have inferior equipment to Astartes and Guardsmen. This doesn't include rarer equipment such as terminator armour, artificer armour, or storm shields, which offer a whole different level of protection.
Trust me, I'm very familiar with what a bolter is capable of; although in fluff it certainly seems much more effective than it is on the tabletop.
As for dealing with terminator armor and artificer armor, you're right; I don't think a AR or Battle Rifle would cut it. But they have railguns, lasers (equiv lascannon but more mobile), plasma weaponry, etc. I'm not saying it wouldn't be difficult, but those things wouldn't be a total foil to their effective weaponry. Storm Shields are totally badass though; they'd have a hard as hell time getting around that sans flanking.
akaean wrote:Master Chief may have the statline of an Assassin, but hes a huge badass who fights entire armies on his own. Generic Spartans are no where near as elite, and they LOST their war with the covenant....
Honestly I think Spartans are most comparable to Battle Sisters. Human Strength and Toughness, good training, and great armor.
Human strength, but they can punch apart tanks? I don't understand.
No their defiantly marine strength.
As for covenaunt plasma, its weaker then Imperial. If covenant plasma hits a man, he can live through it. If Imperial Plasma hits a man, well, all you got left is ash. The basis of IoM tech is from the DAT. They use STC's to make the current tech, but its still highly advanced. Flak armor (the cardboard armor of the universe) can stop a .50 cal round (the same round used in Halo UNSC Sniper) which would establish the sniper rifle is only AP 6. Carapace is even better since it can stop 20mm high velocity grenade. Wh40k tech is so over the top its almost Overpowerd against everything in Sci-Fi.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:
No their defiantly marine strength.
As for covenaunt plasma, its weaker then Imperial. If covenant plasma hits a man, he can live through it. If Imperial Plasma hits a man, well, all you got left is ash. The basis of IoM tech is from the DAT. They use STC's to make the current tech, but its still highly advanced. Flak armor (the cardboard armor of the universe) can stop a .50 cal round (the same round used in Halo UNSC Sniper) which would establish the sniper rifle is only AP 6. Carapace is even better since it can stop 20mm high velocity grenade. Wh40k tech is so over the top its almost Overpowerd against everything in Sci-Fi.
Not in the fluff; it melts through Spartan armor. Its the same plasma; Imperial plasma isn't 'better'. On lengendary, plasma kills marines almost instantly in game if that is a comparison you're looking for.
So, you're equating the power of the UNSC sniper rifle because of the round it uses which is the same size as a round that exists in 40k on a gun that the game rules allow 5+ to save; barring any technical innovation they've made with their sniper ANTI-MATERIAL rounds (that can shoot through tanks). This is possibly the most absurd reasoning I've ever heard.
Discussion with you is useless, you merely perform mental gymnastics to get around every point I am making. Next you will say that the Spartan Laser, that can blow up covenant tanks (which are based on Forerunner tech which is more advanced than IoM) can't kill a Space Marine because their armor is newer/better tech so can obviously stop Spartan Lasers but not Lascannons.
Ridiculous.
Also spell better when you're calling people out and telling them they are wrong.
akaean wrote:Master Chief may have the statline of an Assassin, but hes a huge badass who fights entire armies on his own. Generic Spartans are no where near as elite, and they LOST their war with the covenant....
Honestly I think Spartans are most comparable to Battle Sisters. Human Strength and Toughness, good training, and great armor.
You might want to research some of the Halo fluff, friend. =P
Both Spartan Mjolnir Armour and Power Armour use powered servos to enhance the strength of the user.
The Power Armour was originally created for moving spaceship parts. It has a multi-tonne load capacity, even through the skimming-down it's gone through, and is roughly 4 times the weight of the Mjolnir.
The Mjolnir Armour has ~2tonne lift+move capacity, less than half what the power armour has. However, it's much faster than even the power armour's black carapace interface, simply because less of its power has to go into moving itself. Space Marines have a 20km/h march speed, with a 40km/h rush. Spartans have a 20km/h march speed and can move as fast as their servos can push them - Kelly, the fastest, is recorded as moving as much as 90km/h for extended periods, while the chief can move at 60km/h for sprints of up to 10 seconds.
This is SIMPLY BECAUSE THE MJOLNIR HAS LESS MOMENTUM WHEN MOVING, AND LESS FORCE IS REQUIRED RELATIVE TO MOMENTUM IN ORDER TO CHANGE DIRECTIONS.
NOW
If we are placing multi-tonne-moving 100kilo 100km/h hits at S4, we HAVE to place couple-tonne-moving 25kilo 100km/h hits at S3.5, assuming logarithmic energy growth each Tier of S (i.e. if you want to make sense at all, ever, anywhere). Humans are S2.25 in this case, based on a 3kilo hand and a 60km/h hit. Rounding up each time as the rules tell us to, we have S4, and S3. Putting out 100-4,00 times the force of a human each punch warrants you +1S. Getting angry and running while putting out the same amount of force warrants another +1S. Alternatively, in 40K everyone is super-saiyans and when they furious charge, they gain ~32 times their power for a short while.
If you want to start diverging from this sort of thinking in order to use examples with no basis in any sort of actual, logical comparison - instead opting to compare crabs to bananas to bowties - you are welcome to continue, and indeed enjoy, the madness it reviles in. Just don't pretend that what you're doing is justifiable to any sort of logic or rationality, because it's got no basis in either.
If we are placing multi-tonne-moving 100kilo 100km/h hits at S4, we HAVE to place couple-tonne-moving 25kilo 100km/h hits at S3.5, assuming logarithmic energy growth each Tier of S (i.e. if you want to make sense at all, ever, anywhere). Humans are S2.25 in this case, based on a 3kilo hand and a 60km/h hit. Rounding up each time as the rules tell us to, we have S4, and S3. Putting out 100-4,00 times the force of a human each punch warrants you +1S. Getting angry and running while putting out the same amount of force warrants another +1S. Alternatively, in 40K everyone is super-saiyans and when they furious charge, they gain ~32 times their power for a short while.
If you want to start diverging from this sort of thinking in order to use examples with no basis in any sort of actual, logical comparison - instead opting to compare crabs to bananas to bowties - you are welcome to continue, and indeed enjoy, the madness it reviles in. Just don't pretend that what you're doing is justifiable to any sort of logic or rationality, because it's got no basis in either.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:
No their defiantly marine strength.
As for covenaunt plasma, its weaker then Imperial. If covenant plasma hits a man, he can live through it. If Imperial Plasma hits a man, well, all you got left is ash. The basis of IoM tech is from the DAT. They use STC's to make the current tech, but its still highly advanced. Flak armor (the cardboard armor of the universe) can stop a .50 cal round (the same round used in Halo UNSC Sniper) which would establish the sniper rifle is only AP 6. Carapace is even better since it can stop 20mm high velocity grenade. Wh40k tech is so over the top its almost Overpowerd against everything in Sci-Fi.
Not in the fluff; it melts through Spartan armor. Its the same plasma; Imperial plasma isn't 'better'. On lengendary, plasma kills marines almost instantly in game if that is a comparison you're looking for.
Spartan plasma =/= 40K plasma.
So, you're equating the power of the UNSC sniper rifle because of the round it uses which is the same size as a round that exists in 40k on a gun that the game rules allow 5+ to save; barring any technical innovation they've made with their sniper ANTI-MATERIAL rounds (that can shoot through tanks). This is possibly the most absurd reasoning I've ever heard.
A sniper rifle, for all intents and purposes, is a sniper rifle. Only one different type of sniper rifle is distinguished in 40K (exitus), and that's only because it has special ammo. A sniper is a sniper.
Discussion with you is useless, you merely perform mental gymnastics to get around every point I am making. Next you will say that the Spartan Laser, that can blow up covenant tanks (which are based on Forerunner tech which is more advanced than IoM) can't kill a Space Marine because their armor is newer/better tech so can obviously stop Spartan Lasers but not Lascannons.
Prove it is more advanced than imperial tech. Oh wait, you can't, because there is no comparable scale.
Ridiculous.
You are, rather.
Also spell better when you're calling people out and telling them they are wrong.
Well, at least your heart is in the right place on that front.
Anyway, dunno where the idea that normal people can't use spartan lasers? Sargeant Johnson was effortlessly running around using a spartan laser at the end of Halo 3.
liquidjoshi wrote:
Prove it is more advanced than imperial tech. Oh wait, you can't, because there is no comparable scale.
Your logical fallacies are cavernous.
No worse than yours.
And besides, I'm still right. Spartan plasma =/= 40K plasma. Even if you can't compare them, odds are they are not equal. I'm sure someone can compare them. Actually, I think I'll give it a shot.
Assuming a sniper rifle is a universally equal weapon (S:X AP6, etc), we can see the shields on a Spartan can withstand multiple hits from a covenant plasma weapon, while it cannot take a hit from a S:X AP 6 weapon. Therefore a Covenant/ Spartan/ HALO plasma weapon is shown to be sufficiently weaker than the S:7 AP:2 40K plasma weaponry.
Not only did I prove imperial tech is MORE advanced, I also proved that 40K plasma is better than HALO plasma. All from the idiot that had "Cavernous logical flaws".
Now, I doubt that I have to remind you about rule 1. But If I were you, I'd leave before someone who really knows what they're talking about comes along and blows you out of the water.
You didn't prove it because by your own admission your equation is based off of an assumption. What makes you think that Sniper rifles are universally equal? In Contact: Harvest, Sargent Johnson explains that the sniper rifle he's using launches rounds that move at some crazy velocity like mach 50, and the round was powerful enough to punch through two skyscrapers and still hit its target with enough force to make the guy literally explode and cover a hundred foot radius in gore. Does that sound like its comparable to the sniper rifles we see in WH40K, or most fiction for that matter?
Furthermore, you're using game mechanics to attempt to prove your point. The game's mechanics do not accurately represent the fluff in either universe.
And besides, I'm still right. Spartan plasma =/= 40K plasma. Even if you can't compare them, odds are they are not equal. I'm sure someone can compare them. Actually, I think I'll give it a shot.
Not only did I prove imperial tech is MORE advanced, I also proved that 40K plasma is better than HALO plasma. All from the idiot that had "Cavernous logical flaws".
Now, I doubt that I have to remind you about rule 1. But If I were you, I'd leave before someone who really knows what they're talking about comes along and blows you out of the water.
Have a nice day.
You've proven nothing, just that you're comparing things that you just said were not comparable. You have no reasonable basis to claim that Halo's iteration of plasma is any different than 40k's, considering they look the same and act the same in the fluff and gameplay.
Rule number one doesn't include telling people they have cavernous logical fallacies in an argument they are attempting to make, I hope.
I wouldn't say I'm worried about 'someone who really knows what they are talking about and blows me out of the water', I'm fairly comfortable with my lore knowledge of both universes; certainly enough for this conversation. I'd look forward to an actual challenging discussion, because this certainly isn't it.
Fire-arms in the 2500's in Halo use 400-year-old designs pulled from libraries because there hadn't been any human wars requiring them for that long. The advances found from basically our weapons to the weapons found near 2556 happened entirely within their last 50 someodd years. In the novels, forerunner tech had been heavily modified and incorporated as well, meaning Halo Tech at its 'current' is closer to old ones tech than it is to dark ages tech. It's simply the scale that's different - Haloverse might be able to field an armada of ships that are each immensely powerful, but 40K can field hundreds of ships to their one, and though each ship in Haloverse is nigh irreplacable, 40K has the backing to pump out thousands more.
tl;dr tech levels have declined since the DAoM. There are no legions of titans. There are no worldships. There is no warp-access tech in the IoM. It all died when the Emperor's unrelenting scientific progress ceased to be the foundation for the Imperium's power. With this in mind, and the advances made in Haloverse tech via forerunners, the best of halotech is probably better than the best of IoM 40ktech - as evidenced in the newer books - but the average for IoM is much higher than halotech, as evidenced by the ability to give powerful plasma guns to rank-and-file troops.
Stating that the lasgun is capable of blowing limbs off is, again, not a great example, because it has been depicted as bouncing off of reflective surfaces, metals, and even ferroconcrete. It doesn't do well against any kind of energy dispersant shields and it doesn't do well against ablatives. it is VERY MUCH an anti-personnel weapon, and should not be misconstrued into being effective against shields or armour.
Finally, again, after all of this, the base issue is: There is no way to create a statline for the spartan, in comparison to both guardsmen and marines, without first having guardsmen and marines standardized in relation to each other. Since this cannot be done without fractional stats if the human-3 and marine-4 are to be kept - and since people seem to be unwilling to accede that, since they were trained for different roles, they will have different tactical strengths - then there is no possible way to accurately portray an attributal difference between the three that will please everyone.
tltl;drdr - The game is bad when it comes to representing fluff-accuracy, please stop pretending that 4-stats are any good at all because they aren't. Please stop asserting that 4-stats represent space marines because they don't. Please stop asserting that the differences between 40k and halo tech are that vast because they aren't. Please recognize that, while 40k is ott, it's mostly its scale and diversity, rather than its tech, that makes it so. Please recognize that, while the DaOM imperium could handily stomp all but 3 or 4 fictional universes (2 of which, I might add, are hard-scifi and much less inconsistent than 40K), we are in the 41st millenium and our legions of titans are gone. Please recognize that space marines and spartans both have fairly solid canon physical stats, and that these stats are not too far apart if you want to represent them statistically using any sort of logarithmic, exponential, or even direct scale.
daedalus-templarius wrote:So, don't forget Spartans can punch through tanks. How are you going to represent that if they are only S4?
By having them punch tanks. All attacks are resolved against the rear armour meaning S4 can easily glance a vehicle with AV10 rear (almost all vehicles sans Monoliths, Land Raiders, and some types of Leman Russ) to death. A squad with 20 attacks, all hit, 3.333 glances, depletes the hull points of any vehicle sans Monoliths and Land Raiders. They sure as hell shouldn't be given str 6 or str 8, since it blows their power against infantry way out of proportion.
Well, Spartan's don't operate in squads of 5. They would likely each be an Independent character/character. Space Marine strength should be higher anyway, imo.
You really sure about that? other than late in the war when their numbers are down, there isnt a lot of examples of them operating solely alone (not counting the teacher whos name i forget in ghosts of onyx)
daedalus-templarius wrote:So, don't forget Spartans can punch through tanks. How are you going to represent that if they are only S4?
By having them punch tanks. All attacks are resolved against the rear armour meaning S4 can easily glance a vehicle with AV10 rear (almost all vehicles sans Monoliths, Land Raiders, and some types of Leman Russ) to death. A squad with 20 attacks, all hit, 3.333 glances, depletes the hull points of any vehicle sans Monoliths and Land Raiders. They sure as hell shouldn't be given str 6 or str 8, since it blows their power against infantry way out of proportion.
Well, Spartan's don't operate in squads of 5. They would likely each be an Independent character/character. Space Marine strength should be higher anyway, imo.
You really sure about that? other than late in the war when their numbers are down, there isnt a lot of examples of them operating solely alone (not counting the teacher whos name i forget in ghosts of onyx)
Well they may be operating in a squad of like 6 in teams of 2; I'm just saying 5 probably wouldn't be standing all together at the same time.
The squads of 5 was gameplay balance so that you can't take too many special weapons at once; it's also the number of players on each team in the game.
This is why most people in the proposed rule section strongly stress the following statement:
Fluff does not equal gameplay
Yes, the 40k system is very strange and doesn't allow for a true, accurate depiction of what the modifiers truly represent. Yes, there are outliers and strange units that have contradictory fluff. That's all fine. What you need to do is come up with a reasonable stat line based on existing templates that function similarly.
This brings to me second point:
It is never a good idea to port in another universe into the 40k universe and try and come up with rules based on arbitrary fluff representations that truly aren't even consistent in one universe.
That being said, the first iteration was fine as a playable unit. What the rest of you are discussing is madness and will only descend into the deepest pits of insanity where you attempt to use math and other such real world logic to come up with a 'fluff accurate' unit in the confines of the 40k universe, where, you know, we have psykers, daemons, and alien races from another galaxy.
daedalus-templarius wrote:So, don't forget Spartans can punch through tanks. How are you going to represent that if they are only S4?
By having them punch tanks. All attacks are resolved against the rear armour meaning S4 can easily glance a vehicle with AV10 rear (almost all vehicles sans Monoliths, Land Raiders, and some types of Leman Russ) to death. A squad with 20 attacks, all hit, 3.333 glances, depletes the hull points of any vehicle sans Monoliths and Land Raiders. They sure as hell shouldn't be given str 6 or str 8, since it blows their power against infantry way out of proportion.
Well, Spartan's don't operate in squads of 5. They would likely each be an Independent character/character. Space Marine strength should be higher anyway, imo.
You really sure about that? other than late in the war when their numbers are down, there isnt a lot of examples of them operating solely alone (not counting the teacher whos name i forget in ghosts of onyx)
Well they may be operating in a squad of like 6 in teams of 2; I'm just saying 5 probably wouldn't be standing all together at the same time.
Depends what you take as canon, not like they would be against working in large groups, the books have a few examples (attacking reach mid covenant invasion for example has i think 20-30 of them working in 2 teams)
chrisrawr wrote:The squads of 5 was gameplay balance so that you can't take too many special weapons at once; it's also the number of players on each team in the game.
wasnt talking about gameplay buddy
Blacksails wrote:This is why most people in the proposed rule section strongly stress the following statement:
Fluff does not equal gameplay
Yes, the 40k system is very strange and doesn't allow for a true, accurate depiction of what the modifiers truly represent. Yes, there are outliers and strange units that have contradictory fluff. That's all fine. What you need to do is come up with a reasonable stat line based on existing templates that function similarly.
This brings to me second point:
It is never a good idea to port in another universe into the 40k universe and try and come up with rules based on arbitrary fluff representations that truly aren't even consistent in one universe.
That being said, the first iteration was fine as a playable unit. What the rest of you are discussing is madness and will only descend into the deepest pits of insanity where you attempt to use math and other such real world logic to come up with a 'fluff accurate' unit in the confines of the 40k universe, where, you know, we have psykers, daemons, and alien races from another galaxy.
I AM fine with the original posted stats, not as a spartan in full mjolnir armour though. As a spartan III (i think ghosts of onyx, not 100% sure) yes they would work fine and id accept them (fluffwise its all i would accept, they're even referenced as being "disposable heroes"), and id be happy for a slightly statbuffed Sargent to work as a full spartan in name.
Think as a single allied unit, the originaly posted stats are fine as are, in a squad of say 5? With the option of buying a Spartan II with say +1 to the armoursave, and +1 to BS maybe? or something alonng the lines of that to give the unit some utility. Another use of something like that would maybe be to swap that invuln save for stealth (if used as S3s) with a 4+ save for the S3s
?
Logic can be applied to these things because we can model how they work well enough to wave away inconsistencies. You're assuming logic = real life. It doesn't have to be.
Not in the fluff; it melts through Spartan armor. Its the same plasma; Imperial plasma isn't 'better'. On lengendary, plasma kills marines almost instantly in game if that is a comparison you're looking for.
I wasn't using the Video Game. If i was, Spartans would be S 1 T1 Sv 6+ on Legendary, and S10 T10 SV1++ on easy.
So, you're equating the power of the UNSC sniper rifle because of the round it uses which is the same size as a round that exists in 40k on a gun that the game rules allow 5+ to save; barring any technical innovation they've made with their sniper ANTI-MATERIAL rounds (that can shoot through tanks). This is possibly the most absurd reasoning I've ever heard.
If you've read the rules for a sniper rifle it stats it can include a wide range of weapons, but they all fall into the same stat.
Discussion with you is useless, you merely perform mental gymnastics to get around every point I am making. Next you will say that the Spartan Laser, that can blow up covenant tanks (which are based on Forerunner tech which is more advanced than IoM) can't kill a Space Marine because their armor is newer/better tech so can obviously stop Spartan Lasers but not Lascannons.
The halowiki admits the spartan laser is slightly weaker then the missile launcher. As for the strength of the tanks, Covie tanks are extremely weak, You can take them out with a mounted machine gun from the warthog.
Ridiculous.
Also spell better when you're calling people out and telling them they are wrong.
This add no meaningful material for this discussion and the same can be said for you. We're clearly going to have to agree to disagree.
As please Note every body, I used the SCOUT as the base for the Spartan, They have roughly equivalent roles, equipment, and perceived stats.
chrisrawr wrote:tl;dr tech levels have declined since the DAoM. There are no legions of titans.
Yes their are. Look up the Collegia Titanica, which was formed after the DAoT by the way
There are no worldships.
I don't recall world ships in pre heresy fluff or even Pre- DAoT.
There is no warp-access tech in the IoM
Warp travel is the only way to travel the stars. So yes their still is warp-access tech
It all died when the Emperor's unrelenting scientific progress ceased to be the foundation for the Imperium's power
Incorrect, it ended during the age of Strife, and all current IoM tech is based off of STC's which where the ENTIRE technical knowledge of DAoT man
With this in mind, and the advances made in Haloverse tech via forerunners, the best of halotech is probably better than the best of IoM 40ktech - as evidenced in the newer books - but the average for IoM is much higher than halotech, as evidenced by the ability to give powerful plasma guns to rank-and-file troops.
I'd argue the Best IoM tech is better then Halotech. Even the base lasgun is probably the equal of the Covenant plasma guns, (I've always felt that their a weak weapon, and they do the same damage as a Lasgun does in the Fluff.)
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:So my brother and I where discussing Halo and he asked me what a Stat line of a Spartan would be. I thought about it for a bit and heres what I came up with.
It was really hard deciding if they would be S/T 3 or 4 since a there isnt a scale for high 3 or low 4. So for now their on the low end of 4 but still a 4. WS 4 since they're trained in H2H. same for BS. Tho again I had a tough time for wither 3 or 4.
The save may sound off to Halo fans, but the UNSC is a lower tech then the Imperium. The Standard Flak vest can stop a direct hit from a .50 Cal machine gun. (what a Heavy Stubber is) Basic marine armor can't and I'm pretty sure ODST armor can't either, but I'm being generous. So basically the Spartan is a better WS/BS Scout with a 6++. I'm thinking maybe 13ppm.
Weagear: Battle Rifle: Str 3 AP - 24in Rapid Fire. or SMG/ Assault Rifle Str 3 AP - 18in Assault 2. Frag Grenades. CCW. Pistol ( Str 3 12in Pistol)
, Really Quick a Item of Flak Armor can't stop a .50 equivilent , same for the UNSC armor , ( spartan Armor can - Read " The fall of Reach " John 117 is hit by 20mm cannons on a AT aircraft , .50 cal = 12.7mm ) Generally , the Flak Armor is ment to Absorb ( wait for it ) Flak from explosives and is designed to distribute heat to minimize penetrative powers from a Lasgun , UNSC armor both for MArines and ODST's later in hte Human covenent war was designed with hte same goal in mind , to Distribute Heat to minimize Penetrating Powers of the Enemies Weapons . Now even if you argue that flak Armor can stop a .50 cal , the wearer would be immediately incapacitated , the shot would deliver enough Kinetic energy to Break every bone around the point of impact , if you are hit in the chest ,your organs suffer massive Hemorging . , Now the UNSC Standard Rifles fire roughly the same Equivilent to what the M14 Battle Rifle fires which is close to .308 . A .308 is capable of going though several cinderblocks in the Right conditions , I would say in an Equal Unit fight ( Platoon v Platoon ) the UNSC would have a Fighting Chance givine that 1) Their Firearms do not produce the " Stream" as lasguns do 2) Supeiror Training to most IG forces ( short of Stormtroopers ) Being that the UNSC is Trained on a very strict Regimented Doctrine 3) Given the " Age of Darkness" Is when the Majority of the Imperiums Tech was lost , the power pack on the Spartan armor is actually MORE efficant then the Space Marine Power Packs , Granted the Requirements are much differnt but the Space Marines have to change coolant cells every 25-60 Years ( Black Templars novel on Armegeddon also with the Crimson Fist on Ryans world ) where as Spartan Armor has never had to had it's power pack replaced , now in Terms of a Spartan vs a Space Marine , it stands largely in Favor of the Space Marine because of superior components in the Armor , but the Spartan would be FAR more Agile able to strike and PArry quickly . Im Not saying that it would be an Even fight with the UNSC vs the IG but they would have a fighting chance , now , I would Rate the Spartan Armor honestly a 4+ save because its components are FAR better then standard guard Equipment , ( keep in mind 6+ is Ork Armor = Leather Strappings ) and the energy Sheild of the Spartans would reduce the Strength of the Incoming attack ( by 2 Lets say ) and the AP on a roll of 6 to " - " Because the Energy Sheild is Designed ( Also in the Fall of Reach ) to Disperse direct weapons's impacts in reflecting the energy outward ( similar to how the Buffulo Mine Protection Vehical directs the Blast Away from the Under Carrage ) Over all in terms of Strength And Weapon skill i agree with but im thinking Initive would be closer to 5 ( keep in mind 7 is GeneStealer and normal Humans can kill them ) --- I would more so rather hope you consider this ( PASSED AIRBORNE SCHOOL !!!!! ) and i would how this helped a bit ,
Not in the fluff; it melts through Spartan armor. Its the same plasma; Imperial plasma isn't 'better'. On lengendary, plasma kills marines almost instantly in game if that is a comparison you're looking for.
I wasn't using the Video Game. If i was, Spartans would be S 1 T1 Sv 6+ on Legendary, and S10 T10 SV1++ on easy.
So, you're equating the power of the UNSC sniper rifle because of the round it uses which is the same size as a round that exists in 40k on a gun that the game rules allow 5+ to save; barring any technical innovation they've made with their sniper ANTI-MATERIAL rounds (that can shoot through tanks). This is possibly the most absurd reasoning I've ever heard.
If you've read the rules for a sniper rifle it stats it can include a wide range of weapons, but they all fall into the same stat.
Discussion with you is useless, you merely perform mental gymnastics to get around every point I am making. Next you will say that the Spartan Laser, that can blow up covenant tanks (which are based on Forerunner tech which is more advanced than IoM) can't kill a Space Marine because their armor is newer/better tech so can obviously stop Spartan Lasers but not Lascannons.
The halowiki admits the spartan laser is slightly weaker then the missile launcher. As for the strength of the tanks, Covie tanks are extremely weak, You can take them out with a mounted machine gun from the warthog.
Ridiculous.
Also spell better when you're calling people out and telling them they are wrong.
This add no meaningful material for this discussion and the same can be said for you. We're clearly going to have to agree to disagree.
As please Note every body, I used the SCOUT as the base for the Spartan, They have roughly equivalent roles, equipment, and perceived stats.
chrisrawr wrote:tl;dr tech levels have declined since the DAoM. There are no legions of titans.
Yes their are. Look up the Collegia Titanica, which was formed after the DAoT by the way
There are no worldships.
I don't recall world ships in pre heresy fluff or even Pre- DAoT.
There is no warp-access tech in the IoM
Warp travel is the only way to travel the stars. So yes their still is warp-access tech
It all died when the Emperor's unrelenting scientific progress ceased to be the foundation for the Imperium's power
Incorrect, it ended during the age of Strife, and all current IoM tech is based off of STC's which where the ENTIRE technical knowledge of DAoT man
With this in mind, and the advances made in Haloverse tech via forerunners, the best of halotech is probably better than the best of IoM 40ktech - as evidenced in the newer books - but the average for IoM is much higher than halotech, as evidenced by the ability to give powerful plasma guns to rank-and-file troops.
I'd argue the Best IoM tech is better then Halotech. Even the base lasgun is probably the equal of the Covenant plasma guns, (I've always felt that their a weak weapon, and they do the same damage as a Lasgun does in the Fluff.)
BlaxicanX wrote:You didn't prove it because by your own admission your equation is based off of an assumption. What makes you think that Sniper rifles are universally equal? In Contact: Harvest, Sargent Johnson explains that the sniper rifle he's using launches rounds that move at some crazy velocity like mach 50, and the round was powerful enough to punch through two skyscrapers and still hit its target with enough force to make the guy literally explode and cover a hundred foot radius in gore. Does that sound like its comparable to the sniper rifles we see in WH40K, or most fiction for that matter?
Furthermore, you're using game mechanics to attempt to prove your point. The game's mechanics do not accurately represent the fluff in either universe.
Really quick actuall in Contact Harvets with Johnson his words were " Powerful Enough to go though 15 feet of Flesh and Bone " ......... thats more accurate to a mordern .50 cal sniper rifle .....if your gonna rage be smart about it , and Actually that particualr rifle you are refering to is a Railgun , with Explosive Squash Head rounds , Not a Sniper Rifle , simpliy a Antitank tool adopted to Antipersonel use
Your last point observes an extreme ignorance of the later halo novels.
The collegia titanica is NOTHING; 5-12 LEGIONS of THOUSANDS OF TITANS EACH accompanied the colonyships (worldships). Read up on the Iron Men A.I.
Warp travel =//= Warp Access. The Golden Throne was going to be Mankind's Warp Access, which would've bumped them into a similar position to the old ones.
The Scout and the Spartan observe MASSIVELY different roles. Again, the Spartan is more akin to the Vindicare in role, and the GK in secrecy.
AoS is when tech was slapped down and ground into the dirt. It didn't truly die until the emperor's reign and crusade was brought to an end; with no progressive entity to hold back the millennia of horrendously cliqueish and petty reggressionists, the IoM quickly diverted back to almost grotesquely conservative idioms.
There are no complete STCs known; the last useful one was daggers iirc.
chrisrawr wrote:Your last point observes an extreme ignorance of the later halo novels.
Perhaps, doesn't change the fact that the supposed Superior Covie plasma has the same effect as the lasgun in the fluff.
The collegia titanica is NOTHING; 5-12 LEGIONS of THOUSANDS OF TITANS EACH accompanied the colonyships (worldships). Read up on the Iron Men A.I.
Iron Men are not Titains, and where created before the AoS. Titans however where created by Mars during the AoS and where later sent in about the same strength in a Legion as they are in present 40k fluff.
Warp travel =//= Warp Access. The Golden Throne was going to be Mankind's Warp Access, which would've bumped them into a similar position to the old ones.
Oh Webway portals. They don't access the warp at all iirc.
The Scout and the Spartan observe MASSIVELY different roles. Again, the Spartan is more akin to the Vindicare in role, and the GK in secrecy.
A Spartan is a shock trooper trained in infiltration. Not an assassin.
AoS is when tech was slapped down and ground into the dirt. It didn't truly die until the emperor's reign and crusade was brought to an end; with no progressive entity to hold back the millennia of horrendously cliqueish and petty reggressionists, the IoM quickly diverted back to almost grotesquely conservative idioms.
The IoM has to rely on the Admech as per the Treaty of Mars, which was signed by Big E himself, so again your fluff is a little off.
There are no complete STCs known; the last useful one was daggers iirc.
Yeah but their are a bunch of semi complete archives that have information that the AdMEch uses.
Covie plas was the least useful version. Cortana increased the efficiency of a covie warship's plasma (from giant space lasguns, to giant space multi-meltas) simply by optimizing the firing routines when she was 2 - imagine mankind's progress with 6 years of R&R in between.
As well, AoS Titans are much larger and more powerful than modern imperator titans.
The Big E signed it, but the Void Dragon has influenced everything since emps bit it. The big E also signed with the power to direct and change it - power that has been lost because he's DEEAAAAAAAD like batman's parents. The Stone Men were given reign an that reign is in the hands of the big VD, chuckling up a thunder on mars.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:So my brother and I where discussing Halo and he asked me what a Stat line of a Spartan would be. I thought about it for a bit and heres what I came up with.
It was really hard deciding if they would be S/T 3 or 4 since a there isnt a scale for high 3 or low 4. So for now their on the low end of 4 but still a 4. WS 4 since they're trained in H2H. same for BS. Tho again I had a tough time for wither 3 or 4.
The save may sound off to Halo fans, but the UNSC is a lower tech then the Imperium. The Standard Flak vest can stop a direct hit from a .50 Cal machine gun. (what a Heavy Stubber is) Basic marine armor can't and I'm pretty sure ODST armor can't either, but I'm being generous. So basically the Spartan is a better WS/BS Scout with a 6++. I'm thinking maybe 13ppm.
Weagear: Battle Rifle: Str 3 AP - 24in Rapid Fire. or SMG/ Assault Rifle Str 3 AP - 18in Assault 2. Frag Grenades. CCW. Pistol ( Str 3 12in Pistol)
, Really Quick a Item of Flak Armor can't stop a .50 equivilent , same for the UNSC armor , ( spartan Armor can - Read " The fall of Reach " John 117 is hit by 20mm cannons on a AT aircraft , .50 cal = 12.7mm ) Generally , the Flak Armor is ment to Absorb ( wait for it ) Flak from explosives and is designed to distribute heat to minimize penetrative powers from a Lasgun , UNSC armor both for MArines and ODST's later in hte Human covenent war was designed with hte same goal in mind , to Distribute Heat to minimize Penetrating Powers of the Enemies Weapons . Now even if you argue that flak Armor can stop a .50 cal , the wearer would be immediately incapacitated , the shot would deliver enough Kinetic energy to Break every bone around the point of impact , if you are hit in the chest ,your organs suffer massive Hemorging . , Now the UNSC Standard Rifles fire roughly the same Equivilent to what the M14 Battle Rifle fires which is close to .308 . A .308 is capable of going though several cinderblocks in the Right conditions , I would say in an Equal Unit fight ( Platoon v Platoon ) the UNSC would have a Fighting Chance givine that 1) Their Firearms do not produce the " Stream" as lasguns do 2) Supeiror Training to most IG forces ( short of Stormtroopers ) Being that the UNSC is Trained on a very strict Regimented Doctrine 3) Given the " Age of Darkness" Is when the Majority of the Imperiums Tech was lost , the power pack on the Spartan armor is actually MORE efficant then the Space Marine Power Packs , Granted the Requirements are much differnt but the Space Marines have to change coolant cells every 25-60 Years ( Black Templars novel on Armegeddon also with the Crimson Fist on Ryans world ) where as Spartan Armor has never had to had it's power pack replaced , now in Terms of a Spartan vs a Space Marine , it stands largely in Favor of the Space Marine because of superior components in the Armor , but the Spartan would be FAR more Agile able to strike and PArry quickly . Im Not saying that it would be an Even fight with the UNSC vs the IG but they would have a fighting chance , now , I would Rate the Spartan Armor honestly a 4+ save because its components are FAR better then standard guard Equipment , ( keep in mind 6+ is Ork Armor = Leather Strappings ) and the energy Sheild of the Spartans would reduce the Strength of the Incoming attack ( by 2 Lets say ) and the AP on a roll of 6 to " - " Because the Energy Sheild is Designed ( Also in the Fall of Reach ) to Disperse direct weapons's impacts in reflecting the energy outward ( similar to how the Buffulo Mine Protection Vehical directs the Blast Away from the Under Carrage ) Over all in terms of Strength And Weapon skill i agree with but im thinking Initive would be closer to 5 ( keep in mind 7 is GeneStealer and normal Humans can kill them ) --- I would more so rather hope you consider this ( PASSED AIRBORNE SCHOOL !!!!! ) and i would how this helped a bit ,
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:So my brother and I where discussing Halo and he asked me what a Stat line of a Spartan would be. I thought about it for a bit and heres what I came up with.
It was really hard deciding if they would be S/T 3 or 4 since a there isnt a scale for high 3 or low 4. So for now their on the low end of 4 but still a 4. WS 4 since they're trained in H2H. same for BS. Tho again I had a tough time for wither 3 or 4.
The save may sound off to Halo fans, but the UNSC is a lower tech then the Imperium. The Standard Flak vest can stop a direct hit from a .50 Cal machine gun. (what a Heavy Stubber is) Basic marine armor can't and I'm pretty sure ODST armor can't either, but I'm being generous. So basically the Spartan is a better WS/BS Scout with a 6++. I'm thinking maybe 13ppm.
Weagear: Battle Rifle: Str 3 AP - 24in Rapid Fire. or SMG/ Assault Rifle Str 3 AP - 18in Assault 2. Frag Grenades. CCW. Pistol ( Str 3 12in Pistol)
, Really Quick a Item of Flak Armor can't stop a .50 equivilent , same for the UNSC armor , ( spartan Armor can - Read " The fall of Reach " John 117 is hit by 20mm cannons on a AT aircraft , .50 cal = 12.7mm ) Generally , the Flak Armor is ment to Absorb ( wait for it ) Flak from explosives and is designed to distribute heat to minimize penetrative powers from a Lasgun , UNSC armor both for MArines and ODST's later in hte Human covenent war was designed with hte same goal in mind , to Distribute Heat to minimize Penetrating Powers of the Enemies Weapons . Now even if you argue that flak Armor can stop a .50 cal , the wearer would be immediately incapacitated , the shot would deliver enough Kinetic energy to Break every bone around the point of impact , if you are hit in the chest ,your organs suffer massive Hemorging . , Now the UNSC Standard Rifles fire roughly the same Equivilent to what the M14 Battle Rifle fires which is close to .308 . A .308 is capable of going though several cinderblocks in the Right conditions , I would say in an Equal Unit fight ( Platoon v Platoon ) the UNSC would have a Fighting Chance givine that 1) Their Firearms do not produce the " Stream" as lasguns do 2) Supeiror Training to most IG forces ( short of Stormtroopers ) Being that the UNSC is Trained on a very strict Regimented Doctrine 3) Given the " Age of Darkness" Is when the Majority of the Imperiums Tech was lost , the power pack on the Spartan armor is actually MORE efficant then the Space Marine Power Packs , Granted the Requirements are much differnt but the Space Marines have to change coolant cells every 25-60 Years ( Black Templars novel on Armegeddon also with the Crimson Fist on Ryans world ) where as Spartan Armor has never had to had it's power pack replaced , now in Terms of a Spartan vs a Space Marine , it stands largely in Favor of the Space Marine because of superior components in the Armor , but the Spartan would be FAR more Agile able to strike and PArry quickly . Im Not saying that it would be an Even fight with the UNSC vs the IG but they would have a fighting chance , now , I would Rate the Spartan Armor honestly a 4+ save because its components are FAR better then standard guard Equipment , ( keep in mind 6+ is Ork Armor = Leather Strappings ) and the energy Sheild of the Spartans would reduce the Strength of the Incoming attack ( by 2 Lets say ) and the AP on a roll of 6 to " - " Because the Energy Sheild is Designed ( Also in the Fall of Reach ) to Disperse direct weapons's impacts in reflecting the energy outward ( similar to how the Buffulo Mine Protection Vehical directs the Blast Away from the Under Carrage ) Over all in terms of Strength And Weapon skill i agree with but im thinking Initive would be closer to 5 ( keep in mind 7 is GeneStealer and normal Humans can kill them ) --- I would more so rather hope you consider this ( PASSED AIRBORNE SCHOOL !!!!! ) and i would how this helped a bit ,
Paragraphs bro, use paragraphs.
army gave me a Rifle and a Degree in Military Science not an English book lol
relentless, shouldn't the Spartans have this rule? it's hard to tell because I do stop and aim with Sniper Rifles, Spartan Lasers and the Battle Rifle but as they can Move - Fire Rocket Launcher - Throw Grenade - Bash Head I figure Relentless fits. with an ability to take an opponents or allies weapon this makes them reliably versatile.
Lotet wrote:relentless, shouldn't the Spartans have this rule? it's hard to tell because I do stop and aim with Sniper Rifles, Spartan Lasers and the Battle Rifle but as they can Move - Fire Rocket Launcher - Throw Grenade - Bash Head I figure Relentless fits. with an ability to take an opponents or allies weapon this makes them reliably versatile.
24" range when firing relentlessly?
No, whether they can do it in fluff or not doesn't matter, on TT they shouldn't for balance purposes.
fluff? I was talking about the game. I barely know anything about the fluff but I have shot and bashed people with every weapon in the game (except for the turrets).
but just so we're clear, is it taking weapons or being Relentless you hate? or both?
To be clear Lotet, half the people here are against Spartans being able to do anything on the TT that Marines can't, without acknowledging or with cognitive dissonance towards the whole, "Marines are not well-represented."
oh, well. that sounds reasonable. but they're different types of warriors. reminds me of some thing where in the old rules it was assumed that when people with special weapons were killed it was assumed that an ally picked it up. then it was accepted that they didn't pick up the weapon because they didn't have the specialized training for it but Space Marines are supposed to share and pass around the special weapon between fights, though they don't do this.
how about the Spartans are Toughness 3 with 2 wounds and a 4+ Armour Save. statistically speaking it would take 8 Lasgun hits to take that down but a Space Marine would take 9 hits. probably have that new "it will not die" rule where they regain a wound on a 5+. Strength 4 is fine because we know they can smash things, as long as they don't have too many attacks.
taking tanks is something that you can't give an accurate points value on and I don't think they need it.
as for Leadership. Space Marines may be extremely experienced but they already have 'And They Shall Know No Fear' and can easily become Stubborn if they wanted. I'd say it's perfectly acceptable to have a higher Leadership or a similar rule.
as for weapons, well there's too many variables and the enemies don't use weapons in the same way as Master Chief i.e. they don't Run & Gun like the Chief does, so it's hard to say what they should be.
Lotet wrote:fluff? I was talking about the game. I barely know anything about the fluff but I have shot and bashed people with every weapon in the game (except for the turrets).
but just so we're clear, is it taking weapons or being Relentless you hate? or both?
Relentless. Spartans should be able to take stuff like the Spartan Laser (maybe like a slightly weaker lascannon), but they shouldn't be able to run around shooting them at their full BS.
Eugh. I can't even read this thread more than a couple posts. Comparing stats to fluff is ridiculous, simply because of how hilariously inaccurate they are. You clearly hold the stance that Space Marines are power superhumans with decades of experience, but your problem is you think their statline reflects that. Well, no. It doesn't. Space marines have the same BS as Guard Veterans (who may have been serving for just a couple campaigns). They have two hearts, are hulking masses of flesh, heal insanely fast, but have 1W. Bottom line, SM's statline doesn't represent them, and should be ignored for the sake of comparison.
Guardsmen are a fair building block. You can't take a super-human deathwarrior and build down to make fair stats. You need to take the average, unimpressive human and build up.
Spartans have inhuman precision, with a rifle. Not superhuman, not abhuman, inhuman. They actually focus on accuracy and precise, guerrilla warfare, because there are never HUNDREDS of them fighting.
BS5
The Spartans are adept enough to defeat the best hand-to-hand fighters in melee. Not by a mile, but they are the best hand-to-hand fighters, and would surpass GEQ.
WS4
Spartans can flip tanks and rip turrets off. They can kill most biological creatures in a few strikes, though not likely ID.
S5
Spartans are more resistant to damage and wounds by human standards, remarkably so, but not by much on 40k standards
T4
The Spartan, though impressive, can still only withstand as much structural damage as the normal human, maybe strands more.
W1
Spartans are fast and agile enough to out-speed and out-strike humans, but that's about it.
I4
A3
They are devout warmachines conditioned to not feel fear, simple as that.
LD9
ATSKNF
I actually disagree with the 3+ armour save. I think a Scout equivalent save is good, if a bit lackluster, but the shield is represented with a FNP save. Though not traditionally medicine-related, it shows it well, and is ignored by S8 and up, ie. Krak Missiles, which makes sense.
Sv 4+
FNP 4+
Spartans should be an HQ unit of up to 4 models, 20 points each. Your wargear seems fine enough where I don't care to touch upon it.
BlaxicanX wrote:You didn't prove it because by your own admission your equation is based off of an assumption. What makes you think that Sniper rifles are universally equal? In Contact: Harvest, Sargent Johnson explains that the sniper rifle he's using launches rounds that move at some crazy velocity like mach 50, and the round was powerful enough to punch through two skyscrapers and still hit its target with enough force to make the guy literally explode and cover a hundred foot radius in gore. Does that sound like its comparable to the sniper rifles we see in WH40K, or most fiction for that matter?
Furthermore, you're using game mechanics to attempt to prove your point. The game's mechanics do not accurately represent the fluff in either universe.
Really quick actuall in Contact Harvets with Johnson his words were " Powerful Enough to go though 15 feet of Flesh and Bone " ......... thats more accurate to a mordern .50 cal sniper rifle .....if your gonna rage be smart about it , and Actually that particualr rifle you are refering to is a Railgun , with Explosive Squash Head rounds , Not a Sniper Rifle , simpliy a Antitank tool adopted to Antipersonel use
The round goes through a skyscraper and then makes the guy literally explode. So, you're incorrect. As well, how am I raging? Did I make insults? Curse? You're too sensitive.
Lotet wrote:oh, well. that sounds reasonable. but they're different types of warriors. reminds me of some thing where in the old rules it was assumed that when people with special weapons were killed it was assumed that an ally picked it up. then it was accepted that they didn't pick up the weapon because they didn't have the specialized training for it but Space Marines are supposed to share and pass around the special weapon between fights, though they don't do this.
Ithought of this, since no other unit in the gmae can do this, so i didnt include it for game balance.
how about the Spartans are Toughness 3 with 2 wounds and a 4+ Armour Save. statistically speaking it would take 8 Lasgun hits to take that down but a Space Marine would take 9 hits. probably have that new "it will not die" rule where they regain a wound on a 5+. Strength 4 is fine because we know they can smash things, as long as they don't have too many attacks.
This could work.
taking tanks is something that you can't give an accurate points value on and I don't think they need it.
Right. Also in the fluff I've read Guardsmen taking tanks over. Its a cool thing that doesn't fit in the story.
as for Leadership. Space Marines may be extremely experienced but they already have 'And They Shall Know No Fear' and can easily become Stubborn if they wanted. I'd say it's perfectly acceptable to have a higher Leadership or a similar rule.
I posted this in the rules already. It got lost in the flurry of arguements.
as for weapons, well there's too many variables and the enemies don't use weapons in the same way as Master Chief i.e. they don't Run & Gun like the Chief does, so it's hard to say what they should be.
Exactly.
am I adding to the stupidity?
Nope.
A big part of this is that chrisrawr and I apparently have different views on views on how Spartans should be created in 40K. Chrisrawr obviously believes that it should be a "Movie Marine" style Spartan, and Marines, and will ignore the already established marine stats. I feel that the Spartans should fit in to the already created stats. The closest thing to a Spartan is a Space Marine Scout. They almost have the same skills, and job. With this as a starting point I use it to create a "Table-Top" Style Spartan.
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TheCaptain wrote:Eugh. I can't even read this thread more than a couple posts. Comparing stats to fluff is ridiculous, simply because of how hilariously inaccurate they are. You clearly hold the stance that Space Marines are power superhumans with decades of experience, but your problem is you think their statline reflects that. Well, no. It doesn't. Space marines have the same BS as Guard Veterans (who may have been serving for just a couple campaigns). They have two hearts, are hulking masses of flesh, heal insanely fast, but have 1W. Bottom line, SM's statline doesn't represent them, and should be ignored for the sake of comparison.
However its the statline they are given in game. I'm not here to change the game, or make movie marines. I made a spartan so they can fit inside the already established game design.
Guardsmen are a fair building block. You can't take a super-human deathwarrior and build down to make fair stats. You need to take the average, unimpressive human and build up.
Okay we'll see where this is going
Spartans have inhuman precision, with a rifle. Not superhuman, not abhuman, inhuman. They actually focus on accuracy and precise, guerrilla warfare, because there are never HUNDREDS of them fighting.
BS5
Not necessarily inhume, the basic Lord Commissar has BS5 as does Guardsmen Marbo.
The Spartans are adept enough to defeat the best hand-to-hand fighters in melee. Not by a mile, but they are the best hand-to-hand fighters, and would surpass GEQ.
WS4
Agreed
Spartans can flip tanks and rip turrets off. They can kill most biological creatures in a few strikes, though not likely ID.
S5
See regular marine in fluff can do this as well, which is why I made the Spartans S4
Spartans are more resistant to damage and wounds by human standards, remarkably so, but not by much on 40k standards
T4
Agreed
The Spartan, though impressive, can still only withstand as much structural damage as the normal human, maybe strands more.
W1
Agreed
Spartans are fast and agile enough to out-speed and out-strike humans, but that's about it.
I4
A3
I4 is good, but I'm not sure on attacks. GW design represnt attacks on speed it seems, its more "if your a regular soldier you get 1, If your a Sgt. 2, and if your a Commander 3."
I was designing Spartans to be a regular soldier. But I guess I could bump them up to A2 as a compromise.
They are devout warmachines conditioned to not feel fear, simple as that.
LD9
ATSKNF
Right I put ATSKNF in their Special Rules.
I actually disagree with the 3+ armour save. I think a Scout equivalent save is good, if a bit lackluster, but the shield is represented with a FNP save. Though not traditionally medicine-related, it shows it well, and is ignored by S8 and up, ie. Krak Missiles, which makes sense.
A 4+ with a 5+ FNP would be acceptable.
Sv 4+
FNP 4+
Spartans should be an HQ unit of up to 4 models, 20 points each. Your wargear seems fine enough where I don't care to touch upon it.
Being a pretty big fan of the Halo series, and having read a few Halo books, I have to agree with TheCaptain, with ObliviousBlueCaboose's change to be S4.
MAYBE an elite slot, or HQ, as they weren't designed to be what would be considered troops in the 40k universe.
kcwm wrote:Being a pretty big fan of the Halo series, and having read a few Halo books, I have to agree with TheCaptain, with ObliviousBlueCaboose's change to be S4.
MAYBE an elite slot, or HQ, as they weren't designed to be what would be considered troops in the 40k universe.
As said Troops would be closer to S3s, the S2s (chief, kelly etc) should have the better stats proposed and fill an elite roll, or a HQ squadron
I Tired of this... Obviously, you two can't agree on this. I personally think that a "Spartan 2" is different form a "Spartan 3'.
A "Space Marine" is Different for a "Space Marine Officer"
(Sgt., Lt.,ect.)
So plus I want to make this clear. The MBT for the UNSC (http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/M808B_Main_Battle_Tank)
its considered a "Light tank" and it has a 90mm cannon on it.
Now In WW2 The MBT for America was the M4 Sherman which had a 50mm cannon on it for Anti-infantry or 90mm cannon on it for AT, now the 90 bounced off of the German Panther, Tiger ect. (Granted there are times that they scored hits and pens but point stands). In Halo Spartans are killed out right by a direct hit for the 90mm cannon off the M808B. Power armor has withstood shots for a 90mm cannon.
Also a spartan takes a wile to Punch a tank to death. And that the light tanks, halo never had any heavy or medium tanks so we can't say a spartan can push a LRBT to death or even a chimaria.
and I forgot to quote this but, IG are trained alot better then the USMC, its just not represented in TT.
kinratha wrote:I Tired of this... Obviously, you two can't agree on this. I personally think that a "Spartan 2" is different form a "Spartan 3'.
A "Space Marine" is Different for a "Space Marine Officer"
(Sgt., Lt.,ect.)
So plus I want to make this clear. The MBT for the UNSC (http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/M808B_Main_Battle_Tank)
its considered a "Light tank" and it has a 90mm cannon on it.
Now In WW2 The MBT for America was the M4 Sherman which had a 50mm cannon on it for Anti-infantry or 90mm cannon on it for AT, now the 90 bounced off of the German Panther, Tiger ect. (Granted there are times that they scored hits and pens but point stands). In Halo Spartans are killed out right by a direct hit for the 90mm cannon off the M808B. Power armor has withstood shots for a 90mm cannon.
Also a spartan takes a wile to Punch a tank to death. And that the light tanks, halo never had any heavy or medium tanks so we can't say a spartan can push a LRBT to death or even a chimaria.
and I forgot to quote this but, IG are trained alot better then the USMC, its just not represented in TT.
As iv been saying the two are different, S2 was a project to make elite supersoldiers from the genetic top percentile, so much to that even the projects washouts were kept on as advisers etc because they were that valuable (not the same as the dreadnought think, but gets the point across)
S3 was the attempt to mass produce them. "Disposable Heroes" (namely still children for the most part), in a lighter variant of the armour similar to SM scout armour (as in no shield but with a stealth field instead).
On table, for an S3, a 4+ save with stealth should be more than adequate. Am i wrong?
kinratha wrote:I Tired of this... Obviously, you two can't agree on this. I personally think that a "Spartan 2" is different form a "Spartan 3'.
A "Space Marine" is Different for a "Space Marine Officer"
(Sgt., Lt.,ect.)
So plus I want to make this clear. The MBT for the UNSC (http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/M808B_Main_Battle_Tank)
its considered a "Light tank" and it has a 90mm cannon on it.
Now In WW2 The MBT for America was the M4 Sherman which had a 50mm cannon on it for Anti-infantry or 90mm cannon on it for AT, now the 90 bounced off of the German Panther, Tiger ect. (Granted there are times that they scored hits and pens but point stands). In Halo Spartans are killed out right by a direct hit for the 90mm cannon off the M808B. Power armor has withstood shots for a 90mm cannon.
Also a spartan takes a wile to Punch a tank to death. And that the light tanks, halo never had any heavy or medium tanks so we can't say a spartan can push a LRBT to death or even a chimaria.
and I forgot to quote this but, IG are trained alot better then the USMC, its just not represented in TT.
As iv been saying the two are different, S2 was a project to make elite supersoldiers from the genetic top percentile, so much to that even the projects washouts were kept on as advisers etc because they were that valuable (not the same as the dreadnought think, but gets the point across)
S3 was the attempt to mass produce them. "Disposable Heroes" (namely still children for the most part), in a lighter variant of the armour similar to SM scout armour (as in no shield but with a stealth field instead).
On table, for an S3, a 4+ save with stealth should be more than adequate. Am i wrong?
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:So my brother and I where discussing Halo and he asked me what a Stat line of a Spartan would be. I thought about it for a bit and heres what I came up with.
It was really hard deciding if they would be S/T 3 or 4 since a there isnt a scale for high 3 or low 4. So for now their on the low end of 4 but still a 4. WS 4 since they're trained in H2H. same for BS. Tho again I had a tough time for wither 3 or 4.
The save may sound off to Halo fans, but the UNSC is a lower tech then the Imperium. The Standard Flak vest can stop a direct hit from a .50 Cal machine gun. (what a Heavy Stubber is) Basic marine armor can't and I'm pretty sure ODST armor can't either, but I'm being generous. So basically the Spartan is a better WS/BS Scout with a 6++. I'm thinking maybe 13ppm.
Weagear: Battle Rifle: Str 3 AP - 24in Rapid Fire. or SMG/ Assault Rifle Str 3 AP - 18in Assault 2. Frag Grenades. CCW. Pistol ( Str 3 12in Pistol)
Hmm, while I like it, not too OP but not too UP, maybe change it a bit so all the 'OMFG HALO IS FETHING BETTER THAN ANY OTHER SCI-FI EVER HURR DURR' fans can at least be a bit happy So maybe WS: 4 BS: 4 S: 4 T: 4 INT: 4 A: 2 Ld: 9 Sv: 4+/5++
Special Rules: FNP(6+) ATSKNF
Wargear: Armour (Haven't played any halo games so I'm not sure what the name of the armour spartans use are...): Grants a re-rollable 4+ armour save Sheilding: Grants a 5+ Invunerable Save. If failed, the next time it is used all successful results must be re-rolled Battle Rifle: Str 3 AP 6 24inch Salvo 1/3 Frag Grenades Demo Charge CCW Pistol: Str 3 AP - 12inch Pistol
May replace the battle rifle with one or two SMG's...2pts per SMG SMG: Str 3 AP 6 18inch Salvo 2/4 Combat* Gunslinger** Combat* Counts as a CCW in assault Gunslinger** See BRB, under 'Pistols'
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Sure a S3 would have almost the same stats. Really their would be no real difference between the two in 40k stats. Maybe drop a s3 to S3 and T3?
That could work. i was thining the stat difference there because litterly the size of the S3s, unless their played as adults (in which case the S and T would be the same, not sure about the rest)
Really? I can think of 5 ranged AP3 weapons off the top of my head. There are, granted, more with Power weapons now being AP3, but that's balanced by the large amount of players modelling axes instead for AP2.
So, my point is, why is the spartan better than a SM vs small arms, but worse vs higher calibre weaponry? It makes no sense logically.
Renewable shields DESIGNED to be resistant to small-arms fire vs armour DESIGNED for space-work that ablates against it.
The amount of AP4 weapons also makes up for it, and as a tau player with a sizable firewarrior gunline, I should know.
There should be very few dedicated AP3 weapons; of those that exist, they should be close-range anti-assault weapons for dealing with shock troopers, like marines and incubi.
AP2/1 is anti-tank, and so we know why there's lots of those.
AP4 is for taking out heavy infantry - like fire warriors and carapace armour.
chrisrawr wrote:@Joshi Too many. AP3 is supposed to be special, even as a Tau player I know that
And they are, the only real AP 3 weapons are either anti-vehicle weapons like Krak Missiles, or specialized weapons that every army has like HSLG, Vengence Bolter Rounds, the Vespid guns, 1K sons. Now, AP 2/1 weapons, those are everywhere, plasma guns and meltaguns can be given out like candy on Halloween especially if you run IG vets, Vindicators and Demolishers are quite cheap, everyone can field some relatively common long ranged AP 2/1 weapon, like railguns or lascannons. I once tried to make a 2K Guard list to spam as many plasma guns as possible. Fairly certain I got like 50 plasma guns, which outnumbered lasguns for overall numbers.
chrisrawr wrote:Renewable shields DESIGNED to be resistant to small-arms fire vs armour DESIGNED for space-work that ablates against it.
Because Space Marines were never meant for war. Where the feth would anybody ever get that idea from
Also, I'm not sure what you're trying to say here - that Space Marines are meant to survive in Space? They can, but that isn't the armour's main function.
And the shield is overglorified, and I think you know that as well as I do. The Space marine game shows armour has a shield which can be broken in the same way as the Halo games show Spartans have one. Doesn't mean they should be better at deflecting bullets than Astartes armour.
chrisrawr wrote:Renewable shields DESIGNED to be resistant to small-arms fire vs armour DESIGNED for space-work that ablates against it.
Because Space Marines were never meant for war. Where the feth would anybody ever get that idea from
Also, I'm not sure what you're trying to say here - that Space Marines are meant to survive in Space? They can, but that isn't the armour's main function.
And the shield is overglorified, and I think you know that as well as I do. The Space marine game shows armour has a shield which can be broken in the same way as the Halo games show Spartans have one. Doesn't mean they should be better at deflecting bullets than Astartes armour.
By that logic though firewarriors should get shields too
They do. Ever played the Firewarrior Video game? You're armour very definitely has a shield IIRC. You don't see anything apart from the armour bar, but still counts.
Space Marines' Power Armour is industrial spaceship part moving suits that have been adapted to war because they had the STC prints available for em. They're not shielded, they're ablative; and again, comparing space marines to spartans doesn't work because there isn't enough statistical difference to differentiate them, without underplaying spartans or overplaying humans.
liquidjoshi wrote:They do. Ever played the Firewarrior Video game? You're armour very definitely has a shield IIRC. You don't see anything apart from the armour bar, but still counts.
That was my point, the game mechanic was the only indication anywhere that firewarriors have a shield, and that was just for the purposes of the game. Plus, by same reasoning as "it happened in the videogame" pretty sure space marines shouldn't get cover saves either? And 1 SM should be able to kill armies of orks and his melee kills should heal him? Or are we allowing some mechanics and disregarding others "just because".
liquidjoshi wrote:They do. Ever played the Firewarrior Video game? You're armour very definitely has a shield IIRC. You don't see anything apart from the armour bar, but still counts.
That was my point, the game mechanic was the only indication anywhere that firewarriors have a shield, and that was just for the purposes of the game. Plus, by same reasoning as "it happened in the videogame" pretty sure space marines shouldn't get cover saves either? And 1 SM should be able to kill armies of orks and his melee kills should heal him? Or are we allowing some mechanics and disregarding others "just because".
I get the feeling we're arguing the same cause but under different pretences. I firmly believe that game =/= fluff (mainly because it doesn't), and that trying to make it fit will make an abomination, not a game. Hence why I think:
A) The first statline was fine.
B) If people want to do Spartans representing what they can do in game, that's fine. But expect me to turn up with movie marines at regular marine prices in our game.
liquidjoshi wrote:They do. Ever played the Firewarrior Video game? You're armour very definitely has a shield IIRC. You don't see anything apart from the armour bar, but still counts.
That was my point, the game mechanic was the only indication anywhere that firewarriors have a shield, and that was just for the purposes of the game. Plus, by same reasoning as "it happened in the videogame" pretty sure space marines shouldn't get cover saves either? And 1 SM should be able to kill armies of orks and his melee kills should heal him? Or are we allowing some mechanics and disregarding others "just because".
I get the feeling we're arguing the same cause but under different pretences. I firmly believe that game =/= fluff (mainly because it doesn't), and that trying to make it fit will make an abomination, not a game. Hence why I think:
A) The first statline was fine.
B) If people want to do Spartans representing what they can do in game, that's fine. But expect me to turn up with movie marines at regular marine prices in our game.
We could be getting mixed up in each others wording >>
Im the first to argue game =/= fluff, least not in all respects, but lets admit some if the 40k fluff as compared to its own game is a little...out there.
The first statline WAS good, and yes, everything needs tweaks but as a base it was fine. Maybe a better idea would be to add all these proposed tweaks in the form of war gear options. The spartan II were never ment to be used as standard soldiers like space marines. Space marines all (to more or less degree) follow their own sets of rules, and thus we have tacticls, devastators etc, and within that (both fluff, movie marine and tabletop) its very much "you 7 get bolters, he gets a chainsword and you two get special weapon X and heavy weapon Y". We in agreement so far? This is what helps to keep some semblance of balance with TT marines, same as their abilities being downplayed. Spartans on the other hand are no legion. Even in the original S2 project, only 33 were left after an initial class of 75, and that was before wartime. Another class came along after, but im going to assume similar numbers. They were encouraged to play to their strengths, and were issued with what suited the individual.
Basicaly what im trying to get at is, downplay the stats a bit, but still better than guardsmen. Give them the rerollable 4+ (great idea by the way) and then, as well as the proposed wargear weapons, give them something alont the line of what stormtroopers get, but by squad member. Their probably going to be Elite unit anyway right? say a selection of little quirks boosting stats or giving a special rule to that one model, priced accordingly and say each "quirk" can only be taken by 1 model each. Sound about fair? Please both parties? It would keep the SM fanboys placated in that each one isnt better than an astartes, and itd keep the halo fanboys down because it would give them slight edges and still be fluffy to halo.
liquidjoshi wrote:
B) If people want to do Spartans representing what they can do in game, that's fine. But expect me to turn up with movie marines at regular marine prices in our game.
>Spartan at representative stats and price
>Why not Space Marine at representative stats and price?
wut.
liquidjoshi wrote:They do. Ever played the Firewarrior Video game? You're armour very definitely has a shield IIRC. You don't see anything apart from the armour bar, but still counts.
That was my point, the game mechanic was the only indication anywhere that firewarriors have a shield, and that was just for the purposes of the game. Plus, by same reasoning as "it happened in the videogame" pretty sure space marines shouldn't get cover saves either? And 1 SM should be able to kill armies of orks and his melee kills should heal him? Or are we allowing some mechanics and disregarding others "just because".
I get the feeling we're arguing the same cause but under different pretences. I firmly believe that game =/= fluff (mainly because it doesn't), and that trying to make it fit will make an abomination, not a game. Hence why I think:
A) The first statline was fine.
B) If people want to do Spartans representing what they can do in game, that's fine. But expect me to turn up with movie marines at regular marine prices in our game.
We could be getting mixed up in each others wording >>
Im the first to argue game =/= fluff, least not in all respects, but lets admit some if the 40k fluff as compared to its own game is a little...out there.
The first statline WAS good, and yes, everything needs tweaks but as a base it was fine. Maybe a better idea would be to add all these proposed tweaks in the form of war gear options. The spartan II were never ment to be used as standard soldiers like space marines. Space marines all (to more or less degree) follow their own sets of rules, and thus we have tacticls, devastators etc, and within that (both fluff, movie marine and tabletop) its very much "you 7 get bolters, he gets a chainsword and you two get special weapon X and heavy weapon Y". We in agreement so far? This is what helps to keep some semblance of balance with TT marines, same as their abilities being downplayed. Spartans on the other hand are no legion. Even in the original S2 project, only 33 were left after an initial class of 75, and that was before wartime. Another class came along after, but im going to assume similar numbers. They were encouraged to play to their strengths, and were issued with what suited the individual.
Basicaly what im trying to get at is, downplay the stats a bit, but still better than guardsmen. Give them the rerollable 4+ (great idea by the way) and then, as well as the proposed wargear weapons, give them something alont the line of what stormtroopers get, but by squad member. Their probably going to be Elite unit anyway right? say a selection of little quirks boosting stats or giving a special rule to that one model, priced accordingly and say each "quirk" can only be taken by 1 model each. Sound about fair? Please both parties? It would keep the SM fanboys placated in that each one isnt better than an astartes, and itd keep the halo fanboys down because it would give them slight edges and still be fluffy to halo.
That 4+ re roll still irks me somewhat. But it's a point I'll concede for now. I think Spartan squads could work as 5 man units (slightly unfluffy, but we all know fluff =/= rules) with possibly more special weapons than other units (thinking 2/ 5 guys - able to buff them to 10 - Combat squads would definitely be an option.)
Another point is that while they are far more fragile than Space Marines, they are more manoeuvrable and naturally more quiet, so I don't see why they couldn't have MTC and Stealth. This means they get better cover saves than astartes, becoming more durable in a fluffy way, while they can't fulfil the role of frontline warriors that the SM can. I feel this is balanced (and also mitigates the re-rollable 4+ armour save - you don't need it with a 3+ cover in ruins, 4+ in most other pieces of terrain)
Obviously some people won't be happy with it, but I feel that this is balanced and somewhat fluffy. Making them fit to the game, not their fluff, is what is important, and what I think a lot of people here are missing.
chrisrawr wrote:
liquidjoshi wrote:
B) If people want to do Spartans representing what they can do in game, that's fine. But expect me to turn up with movie marines at regular marine prices in our game.
>Spartan at representative stats and price
>Why not Space Marine at representative stats and price?
wut.
Wow... that's... interesting... And very unclear. Translation anyone?
Righto, if you're going to use Space Marines as a comparison, we have to acknowledge that no mere human, no matter how well-trained, deserves a 4 in any stat, and indeed, S4 is mighty.
S4 is representative of Servos capable of lifting many-tonne spaceship parts. It's representative of a 2-tonne suit of armour with a 200 pound fist smashing you at over 100 miles an hour. It's representative of the awesome might of mechanical systems and stresses, which would tear normal human tissue to pieces.
T4 is representative of the multiple redundancies that go into a Space Marine's physiology. It's representative of the steroids and god-seed present in their systems. T4 represents the ability to be shot by a modern-day tank and keep trucking, with or without power armour.
WS4 represents decades, if not centuries, of training in the arts martial, the arts combative, and the firearm arts. It represents dozens, if not hundreds, of campaigns and victories. It also represents the power of the black carapace to aid and assist, and indeed enhance, their very minds and senses far beyond any mere mortals.
BS4 represents, again, the enhanced senses and abilities brought by the carapace, their geneseed, and their power armour's ability to negate all recoil from any weapon smaller than a battle cannon. Servos are awesome.
Ld8 represents a space marine's unshakable will in the face of decades of atrocity.
I4 and A1 represents a space marine's incredible machine-enhanced speed and lethality - able to kill a man simply by walking over him, able to plant precision blows without stopping in his advance, the space marine is a terror.
Sv3+ represents the tank-like armour of the space marine. Able to easily survive a fullisade of laserbeams, shrapnel, plasma, and worse, the space marine is at home in his role as a storm-trooper and walking war machine.
With this in mind, my new proposed statline for humans and spartans.
Lasgun: S1 AP10 range 24" rapidfire
Bolter: S3 AP6 range 24" rapidfire
Heavy Bolter: S4 AP5 range 36" assault 5 for space marines, heavy 3 for everyone else.
Battle Rifle: S2 AP7 range24 assault 3
SMG: S1.5 AP8 Range18 assault 3, 2 = assault 5
And now everyone can be happy.
He has a point, the tabletop vs fluff really doesn't balance well >> Though to be fair the fluff doesn't balance either, but hey thats sci-fi (as is halo). Now, baring in mind that they're 2 sci-fi worlds ruled by cool (with the exception of a few nice little psuedo-science bits), SOME of the proposed changes make sense, In terms of the invuln save, how about something along the lines of 5+/3++ FNP, with a special rule, after he fails the 3++, but before FNP, for the next turn he loses the 3++ (as in the shield going down). Turn after that, if still alive gets it back. Seem fair?
Im not gonna touch the rest of it yet before thinking thruogh a bit more. Hope this helped
Quite a well known and old fact that SM's dont fit the fluff, and instead of downgrading every other model you simply have to upgrade space marines and things like GD's and avatars and SC's. I remember from a long time ago GW supposdly saying that if marines fit the fluff in the TT game then they would be stat line on most and prob 5 wounds. If that was the case then a SM army would be 5 models and then how would GW make any money
They do. Ever played the Firewarrior Video game? You're armour very definitely has a shield IIRC. You don't see anything apart from the armour bar, but still counts.
That was my point, the game mechanic was the only indication anywhere that firewarriors have a shield, and that was just for the purposes of the game. Plus, by same reasoning as "it happened in the videogame" pretty sure space marines shouldn't get cover saves either? And 1 SM should be able to kill armies of orks and his melee kills should heal him? Or are we allowing some mechanics and disregarding others "just because".
I get the feeling we're arguing the same cause but under different pretences. I firmly believe that game =/= fluff (mainly because it doesn't), and that trying to make it fit will make an abomination, not a game. Hence why I think:
A) The first statline was fine.
B) If people want to do Spartans representing what they can do in game, that's fine. But expect me to turn up with movie marines at regular marine prices in our game.
We could be getting mixed up in each others wording >>
Im the first to argue game =/= fluff, least not in all respects, but lets admit some if the 40k fluff as compared to its own game is a little...out there.
The first statline WAS good, and yes, everything needs tweaks but as a base it was fine. Maybe a better idea would be to add all these proposed tweaks in the form of war gear options. The spartan II were never ment to be used as standard soldiers like space marines. Space marines all (to more or less degree) follow their own sets of rules, and thus we have tacticls, devastators etc, and within that (both fluff, movie marine and tabletop) its very much "you 7 get bolters, he gets a chainsword and you two get special weapon X and heavy weapon Y". We in agreement so far? This is what helps to keep some semblance of balance with TT marines, same as their abilities being downplayed. Spartans on the other hand are no legion. Even in the original S2 project, only 33 were left after an initial class of 75, and that was before wartime. Another class came along after, but im going to assume similar numbers. They were encouraged to play to their strengths, and were issued with what suited the individual.
Basicaly what im trying to get at is, downplay the stats a bit, but still better than guardsmen. Give them the rerollable 4+ (great idea by the way) and then, as well as the proposed wargear weapons, give them something alont the line of what stormtroopers get, but by squad member. Their probably going to be Elite unit anyway right? say a selection of little quirks boosting stats or giving a special rule to that one model, priced accordingly and say each "quirk" can only be taken by 1 model each. Sound about fair? Please both parties? It would keep the SM fanboys placated in that each one isnt better than an astartes, and itd keep the halo fanboys down because it would give them slight edges and still be fluffy to halo.
That 4+ re roll still irks me somewhat. But it's a point I'll concede for now. I think Spartan squads could work as 5 man units (slightly unfluffy, but we all know fluff =/= rules) with possibly more special weapons than other units (thinking 2/ 5 guys - able to buff them to 10 - Combat squads would definitely be an option.)
Another point is that while they are far more fragile than Space Marines, they are more manoeuvrable and naturally more quiet, so I don't see why they couldn't have MTC and Stealth. This means they get better cover saves than astartes, becoming more durable in a fluffy way, while they can't fulfil the role of frontline warriors that the SM can. I feel this is balanced (and also mitigates the re-rollable 4+ armour save - you don't need it with a 3+ cover in ruins, 4+ in most other pieces of terrain)
Obviously some people won't be happy with it, but I feel that this is balanced and somewhat fluffy. Making them fit to the game, not their fluff, is what is important, and what I think a lot of people here are missing.
We arnt going to make everyone happy with this anyway, is silly to try. Hell even if we do reach a sensible middle ground, always gonna be someone who thinks they know better.
Spartans II in 5 man units isnt as unfluffy as you would think. Other than points where it cant be avoided, cant think of many instances where they haven't worked as a team of 3-4. So maybe a minimum squad size of 1? 10 seems really over the top (as i said somewhere further up, the only in universe example i can think of of them operating in those numbers is when they go out of their way to try and retake reach and save halsey). i think a unit of 1/2 to 5 should be more than enough. Especially if given the option to be seconded off to other units like wolf guard.
Stealth id be more than happy to give to them, again i agree, even logic would imply their a tad more capable than an SM at being sneaky (and try telling my vindicare stealthed in ruins isnt useful).
I think coming to an agreement how to imply the physical armour and the overshield would take some serious time and effort, and again more arguing than is really necessary. I will agree that making them fit the game part, if you want to cram them into fluff go write a fanfic, but some off the...il say fluff, shoul at least be apparent (as in why SM unit formations are that way etc)
Anyway atm feels like my heads full of cotton wool, so im going to leave it at that before i make more of an idiot of myself. For now im gonna leave it at:
-Units of 2-5 are perfectly fluffy and should work fine in game.
-Stealth could be fine unit wise, though i still see no problem with loading spartans out individually as i had said (works for wolf guard and is at least justified with spartans). I think a better way of showing them to be more mobile than SM's is giving them move through cover. Isn't as game changing, and is a tad more of a common USD if i remember rightly
No, you are right, we can't and won't make everyone happy. I'll also be the first to admit I don't know a great amount about the Halo universe. However, I do like making balance for these kinds of things.
And I like watching Halo fanobys rage because they think Spartans are better than SM for some reason.
liquidjoshi wrote:No, you are right, we can't and won't make everyone happy. I'll also be the first to admit I don't know a great amount about the Halo universe. However, I do like making balance for these kinds of things.
And I like watching Halo fanobys rage because they think Spartans are better than SM for some reason.
Its not even a case of "better" though, its like comparing the navy SEALs to SAS. Happens alot, national pride blagh blagh blagh. Their a bad comparison, they were created for entirely different purposes. Its like arguing that your cars better than a bus because it goes faster. Yes, true, but lets see it fit 40 people. See my point?
@liquid no one in this entire thread has ever insinuated that spartans are better than space marines. Please point me to a post by someone raging over this?
Special rules: Regenerating shield, hijack, weapon-grab, move through cover, stealth
Regenerating shield: 4++ to start, once a save is made, it changes to 5++, once another save is made 6++, if a save is made at 6++ the shield is exhausted. The shield regenerates at the beginning of the next player turn
hijack: When in B2B contact with an enemy vehicle, the Spartan can attempt to wrest control of the vehicle. On a 4+ the Spartan steals the vehicle and is removed from play temporarily, as he is in control of the enemy vehicle. The controlling player can choose to relinquish control of the vehicle and come back onto the board using disembarkation rules, and the vehicle is wrecked. If the vehicle is wrecked while the Spartan is inside, he must disembark.
weapon-grab: When a Spartan is in play, place a token where an enemy squad with a special weapon has been killed. On the Spartan controlling player's turn, he may choose to pick up a dropped special weapon and use it for that shooting phase. After the shooting phase is over, the Spartan discards the special weapon due to it being out of ammunition, low on power, etc.
I fully agree that this is what Spartans would be. They are not meant to be balanced. However, why is the BR heavy if at 36". I would not think that it would be unless you are saying he is standing still trying to line up a shot. Note that 36" is the range for 40k snipers
Spartans also have armor abilities, should be another special rule.
Note that 1 spartan can easily take down many times his own number, not just Chief. They can also survive falls from space and hordes of enemies. They top SMs by a long shot
Special rules: Regenerating shield, hijack, weapon-grab, move through cover, stealth
Regenerating shield: 4++ to start, once a save is made, it changes to 5++, once another save is made 6++, if a save is made at 6++ the shield is exhausted. The shield regenerates at the beginning of the next player turn
hijack: When in B2B contact with an enemy vehicle, the Spartan can attempt to wrest control of the vehicle. On a 4+ the Spartan steals the vehicle and is removed from play temporarily, as he is in control of the enemy vehicle. The controlling player can choose to relinquish control of the vehicle and come back onto the board using disembarkation rules, and the vehicle is wrecked. If the vehicle is wrecked while the Spartan is inside, he must disembark.
weapon-grab: When a Spartan is in play, place a token where an enemy squad with a special weapon has been killed. On the Spartan controlling player's turn, he may choose to pick up a dropped special weapon and use it for that shooting phase. After the shooting phase is over, the Spartan discards the special weapon due to it being out of ammunition, low on power, etc.
I fully agree that this is what Spartans would be. They are not meant to be balanced. However, why is the BR heavy if at 36". I would not think that it would be unless you are saying he is standing still trying to line up a shot. Note that 36" is the range for 40k snipers
Spartans also have armor abilities, should be another special rule.
Note that 1 spartan can easily take down many times his own number, not just Chief. They can also survive falls from space and hordes of enemies. They top SMs by a long shot
And I dont agree. In WH40k fluff, guardsmen and marines hijack tanks, and pick up weapons. However its not part of their USR's, So I find my stats and price perfectly fair. Its just not a fanboy friendly stat line.
daedalus-templarius wrote:This thread is still garbage, sad I came and checked on it.
For the record, I'm a bigger 40k fanboy than Halo fanboy(just look at my art ffs); I just think the stats presented in here are crap.
They really aren't. Nowhere are Spartans portrayed as superior to marines, and their stats are very similar. The only problem is that the stat scale of 40K is crap. A guardsman might be strength 3.4, a Spartan might be strength 4.2, and a marine might be strength 4.4, but since the system only uses a scale of 1-10 the guardsman is lowered down to strength 3, the Spartan is rounded down to strength 4, and the marine is rounded down to strength 4. As I said earlier, if you give Spartans stats like WS:4 BS:5 S:5 T:4 W:2 I:5 A:2 Ld:10 Sv:4+/5++ than you should give marines stats like WS:5 BS:5 S:5 T:5 W:2 I:4 A:2 Ld:10 Sv:3+, which no one wants. Now, if you made a Spartan special character with stats like WS:5 BS:5 S:5 T:4 W:3 I:5 A:2 Ld:10 Sv:3+/5++, and gave them eternal warrior I wouldn't mind because special and independent characters have plot armour. It is why a Lord Commissar or Creed gets more wounds than an Ork Nob, or why anyone except gargantuan creatures have eternal warrior. No one wants to buy a fancy special character that costs 250 points just to see them die on turn 3 from a demolisher cannon without having done anything.
daedalus-templarius wrote:This thread is still garbage, sad I came and checked on it.
For the record, I'm a bigger 40k fanboy than Halo fanboy(just look at my art ffs); I just think the stats presented in here are crap.
considering this thread hadnt had a post for what, nearly a week or something? if your not happy why did you feel the need to a) post and get the thread going again, and b) complain and then offer no discussion, alternative anything. congrats my good sir, you whined on the internet and got some attention!
Buttons wrote:
They really aren't. Nowhere are Spartans portrayed as superior to marines, and their stats are very similar. The only problem is that the stat scale of 40K is crap. A guardsman might be strength 3.4, a Spartan might be strength 4.2, and a marine might be strength 4.4, but since the system only uses a scale of 1-10 the guardsman is lowered down to strength 3, the Spartan is rounded down to strength 4, and the marine is rounded down to strength 4. As I said earlier, if you give Spartans stats like WS:4 BS:5 S:5 T:4 W:2 I:5 A:2 Ld:10 Sv:4+/5++ than you should give marines stats like WS:5 BS:5 S:5 T:5 W:2 I:4 A:2 Ld:10 Sv:3+, which no one wants. Now, if you made a Spartan special character with stats like WS:5 BS:5 S:5 T:4 W:3 I:5 A:2 Ld:10 Sv:3+/5++, and gave them eternal warrior I wouldn't mind because special and independent characters have plot armour. It is why a Lord Commissar or Creed gets more wounds than an Ork Nob, or why anyone except gargantuan creatures have eternal warrior. No one wants to buy a fancy special character that costs 250 points just to see them die on turn 3 from a demolisher cannon without having done anything.
this is always a problem not just with 40k, but scaling any other fandom into it. always too gonna have two sides frothing at the mouth. Even the originaly posted stats were pretty damn good compared to some (as in, topics that go along the lines of "hur dur spartans should be S9 just because". Yes il admit, we went a little silly with the tinkering, but i think it was more.... people tinkering towards different directions up there rather than a pool, so its probably not as bad as it seems.
"this is always a problem not just with 40k, but scaling any other fandom into it. always too gonna have two sides frothing at the mouth."
Eh, I fervently disagree with this. Any fiction with content worth porting will have some basic consistency to it from which data can be extrapolated. Data extrapolated from two sources can always be compared when the system comparing them is representative; Warhammer 40K the Tabletop is not representative, so you can't compare data with it.
chrisrawr wrote:"this is always a problem not just with 40k, but scaling any other fandom into it. always too gonna have two sides frothing at the mouth."
Eh, I fervently disagree with this. Any fiction with content worth porting will have some basic consistency to it from which data can be extrapolated. Data extrapolated from two sources can always be compared when the system comparing them is representative; Warhammer 40K the Tabletop is not representative, so you can't compare data with it.
Right, but you can compare the data of WH40k fluff to Halo Fluff, then translate the 40k fluff back into tabletop fluff. Which is what I did. Its not 100% perfect, but it stays with the spirit of the game.
Also like Buttons said about Plot armor, this is a generic spartan. Not an named character. Its not going to have the plot armor that the Chief would have.
daedalus-templarius wrote:This thread is still garbage, sad I came and checked on it.
For the record, I'm a bigger 40k fanboy than Halo fanboy(just look at my art ffs); I just think the stats presented in here are crap.
Oh I'm sorry, here I made you a special Supa 1337 SPARTAN stat line.
WS: 10
BS: 10
S: 10
T: 10
I: 10
W: *
A: 100
LD: 10
Save 2+/2++ re-rollable.
Fleahbane
Armor Bane
Shrouded,
Stealth,
Rage
Stubborn
Fearless
ATSKNF
SPARTANS R DA BESTEST: You win automatically for playing a spartan!
Happy?
* Wounds? SPARTANS CANT DIE THEY 2 COOL!!!!!1!1!!1
chrisrawr wrote:"this is always a problem not just with 40k, but scaling any other fandom into it. always too gonna have two sides frothing at the mouth."
Eh, I fervently disagree with this. Any fiction with content worth porting will have some basic consistency to it from which data can be extrapolated. Data extrapolated from two sources can always be compared when the system comparing them is representative; Warhammer 40K the Tabletop is not representative, so you can't compare data with it.
Right, but you can compare the data of WH40k fluff to Halo Fluff, then translate the 40k fluff back into tabletop fluff. Which is what I did. Its not 100% perfect, but it stays with the spirit of the game.
Except that FOURTYKAY FLUFF DOES NOT TRANSLATE INTO TABLETOP FLUFF (I think you meant crunch here).
There is no consistency at all to tabletop statistics, let alone when you bring fluff into it. Implying that you can stick something so much more than human in every way, in a slot that's so close to human, or worse in some cases, while we have things like vindicares, deathcult assassins, commissars, etc, all with established fluff being weaker than space marines (yet having better statlines, weapons, and points-cost-to-killy ratios) is a clear example of this.
So yes, you can compare Halo fluff to 40K fluff. But no, you cannot translate 40K fluff back into tabletop fluff without addressing the inconsistencies in the characteristics currently there, as they provide NO MEANINGFUL DATA that can be USED in a CONSISTENT WAY!
Meaningful Data: How much stronger is a Space Marine in Power Armour than a Human? A Space Marine is "Furious Charge" stronger - that is, when a human gets angry and runs at his enemies, he is as strong as a Space Marine in Power Armour, Dual Comparison to WHAT WE KNOW for Consistency: How strong are Humans, and how strong are Humans when angry and running? Humans are human-strength, and a Humans are about the same strength when angry and running. Meaningful Data Interpretation: Space Marines in Power Armour are Marginally stronger than Humans; S4 is marginally stronger than S3. We see this in the continued trend of S3-S4 via Furious Charge; in Orks, Harlequins, Tau, etc. Dual Extrapolation: Either S4 is representative of Space Marine Strength, and marginally better than S3, or S4 is not representative of Marine Strength, and marginally better than S3.
The same basically applies to everything else where comparisons were made between humans and space marines.
If you want to compare this properly, from fluff to tabletop, then a Spartan would be more or less the equivalent to a SM Scout, but with T3.
I would allow the S4 because let's face it, Spartans don't have any standard issue hand to hand combat weaponry other than the armour itself AFAIK, so if they came up against a SM with anything from their armoury with the exception of perhaps a combat blade the spartan would be dead pretty fast.
Also a Bolter would be best compared to a full automatic RPG, rather than a machinegun.
Just saying, there are too many people on dakka that do not understand how to make playable rules as aposed to "fluffy rules". i think you'll find if you play a scenario using the movie marine rules you'll find it increadibly boring and not fun at all (that is unless you are completely obsessed with winning which is not the point of the game). I will admit i used to be like that but you'll find the game is far more fun when everyone plays for fun. For realistic and playable spartan rules i would say the following:
Spartan Team 100pts
WsBs S T W I A LdSv Spartan team leader: 4 4 4 4 1 4 2 10 4+
Spartan: 4 4 4 4 1 4 1 9 4+
Unit Composition:
1 Spartan Sergeant
4 Spartans
Unit Type:
Infantry
Infantry Character (Sergeant only)
Special Rules:
Iron Will: A Spartan unit may always attempt to regroup at its normal leadership, regardless of any modifiers
Wargear:
Assault Rifle
Frag and Krak Grenades
Spartan Armour (4+ armour save)
Sheilding (6+ invurnerable save)
Magnum
Combat Knife
Options:
Any Spartan in the unit may exchange his magnum for one of the following:
Battle Rifle......................4pts
Shotgun..........................5pts
DMR................................4pts
Any Spartan in the unit may replace his assault rifle with one of the following:
Battle Rifle.....................1pts
Shotgun.........................2pts
DMR................................1pts
One Spartan in unit unit may replace both his assault rifle and Combat Knife with one of the following
Rocket Launcher..........5pts
FlameThrower...............5pts
Weapon Profiles:
Range S AP Type
Magnum 12" 3 6 Pistol
Assault Rifle 24" 3 6 Rapid Fire
Battle Rifle 36" 3 - Rapid Fire
DMR 36" 3 5 Single Shot
Shotgun 12" 3 6 Assault 2
Rocket Lchr. 36" 4 6 Heavy 1, Blast
Flamethrower template 4 - Heavy 1
Combat Knife - user - Melee
Writers notes:
My reasons for the rules are as follows: a marine from halo's armour is equivelant to that of a standard imperial guardsman, spartan armour is not much better so only a 4+ save was given. the 6+ invurnerable save is because again, the sheild can't take that much punishment. In melee combat a spartan does far more damage bashing than the weapon does at range, therefore the guns are all strength 3 apart from the shotgun as it is very powerful at short range, and the heavy weapons, both of which are the mounted versions from halo 3 as the rocket launcher that is more mobile would run out of ammo to quickly in a game of 40k. In the rules for the DMR the reason it is single shot is because you cannot assault after firing it. the rest is pretty self explanitory, but obviously these rules will need playtested before they can be finalised.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just to confirm, this message was not directed at the creator of this post, it was directed at all the halo fanboys preaching OP rules. The rules i have suggested should play well and sort of fit fluff wise. Plus it allows you to field them in a game without breaking it and it'd be really cool.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Lol, i didn't read your rules before i wrote mine, we had very similar ideas! I will repost this and ask for suggestions.
from me, a self confessed Halo anti-fan. Kudos.
Pretty sure shooting an AR at a Terminator armor'd Space Marine would be effectively the same as shooting at a Hunter in Halo, and by that I mean it would do nothing but plink off.
