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Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/13 00:20:33


Post by: Longshot


Ok. Quote is roughly, 'units that are tank shocked are forced to make way by the shortest distance possible.' That's a mild paraphrase but essentially the same.

If you line up two tanks on something, particularly an enemy vehicle, can you force it to 'make way' off of the board edge?

I've been mulling this over because lately I've been seeing everyone and their brothers putting the rear end of their vehicles against the board edge (falcons are the biggest offender). So could you, imagining a situation where the shortest distance possible was off the board edge, force someone's tank off the board edge?

I'll update this with some more quotes when I get a chance, but there's a lot to look for (specifics on how things that get knocked off the board edge are considered destroyed - is this limited by scenario: e.g. are things off the board edge only destroyed when they deviate off or flee off?) In the previous edition you could of course scatter off the board edge with a drifting skimmer, but that's neither here nor there I suppose.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/13 04:55:50


Post by: CaptAnderton


So you think you can push a vehicle off the table edge and it falls off the world? How 14th century of you.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/13 05:15:53


Post by: Lordhat


Anything that has to fall back off the board edge is removed from play, and counts as destroyed for victory purposes.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/13 05:17:02


Post by: Mannahnin


If you Tank Shock an infantry unit off the board it counts as dead. It's not too extreme a stretch to think it might apply to vehicles too.

That said, it doesn't sound quite right to me, as the current rules don't support any explicit means by which a vehicle can leave the table via the edge. A deep striking unit can miss the table completely, but that's not quite the same thing.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/13 05:34:15


Post by: CaptAnderton


Troops have to fail a leadership test to do that. Vehicles dont' take leadership tests.

So if I park two rhinos on both sides of a Devilfish can my Predator push it off the board? I'd say no. That is really pushing the rules to where they were not meant to go. If you pushed it anywhere but the table edge what would happen? It would just move. Pushing it off the FLAT 40K WORLD (board edge) is just stupid. I have never liked the 4X4 and 4X6 worlds. If you deepstrike or run past this then you are lost. LOST TO WHAT? I big scary black hole?


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/13 05:36:53


Post by: S1ider


I would think that if you can make a dreadnaught in a dreadclaw that lands 1 inch off the table edge "die", then you can push a vehicle off the edge to "die" as well.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/13 05:54:36


Post by: Lordhat


The board edge represents the furthest area a model can go, and still be considered a contribution to your force. NM that in many games there will be points INSIDE the board edges that certain units, if they end up there, will NOT be a contribution, due to range movement, LOS or whatever. Just because it doesn't fit your "worldview" does NOT mean that it's not a viable tactic. Anything that moves off, or is forced to touch a board edge is considered destroyed. What ELSE can you do with it? You can't shoot a tank that's off the board... how do you measure LOS and range? How do you determine what facing to use? Likewise, you can't use the tank to shoot back, and even if you COULD "move it back on" like in fantasy, how would you determine how far it moves for purposes of shooting and assault?


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/13 05:54:37


Post by: CaptAnderton


Ok slider you are trying to use deepstrike and tank shock in one rule and that doesn't work 1%. Show me a rule that says you can tank shock a vehicle off the table? You can't. Vehicles dont' run off the table. They don't get pushed off a cliff either.

Show me a rule where a vehicle can bet pushed off level 3 terrian? ie a rhino on top of a hill with impassible terrian behind it. A devilfish pushes it off the edge. Is the rhino destroyed?


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/13 05:58:45


Post by: Lordhat


Posted By CaptAnderton on 03/13/2006 10:54 AM
Ok slider you are trying to use deepstrike and tank shock in one rule and that doesn't work 1%. Show me a rule that says you can tank shock a vehicle off the table? You can't. Vehicles dont' run off the table. They don't get pushed off a cliff either.

Show me a rule where a vehicle can bet pushed off level 3 terrian? ie a rhino on top of a hill with impassible terrian behind it. A devilfish pushes it off the edge. Is the rhino destroyed?
 
 
 
In this case Anderton you can't push the tank..... impassable terrain is just that, impassable. There is no rule or convention that says the board edge is impassable, in fact it's quite the opposite, vehicles and infantry move over it all the time: Deployment and reserves, and fall back. And btw the way he wasn't trying to combine Deepstrike and Tank Shock, he was showing a precedent that vehicles which leave the board by any amount, are considered destroyed.




Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/13 06:19:33


Post by: SaimAlendryelII


The rules show a clear precedent for allowing a vehicle to be tank shocked off of the table and destroyed by it as already shown.  Also, the completely unadressed situation of how to handle a  vehicle whic has left the board also leave no specific reason to think they aren't destroyed.  Now the situations where this is legitimate are rather limited.

Also, for those who wish to argue intent -cough- CaptAnderton -cough- the designers have specifically changed the 4th ed rules to discourage people from hugging the back edge of the board (BGB p. 49).  The ability to tank shock a vehicle off of the table goes hand in hand with this design idea.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/13 06:25:27


Post by: CaptAnderton


Talk about some shady people playing the game of 40k.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/13 07:11:15


Post by: Mannahnin


I don't think it's shady. I think there is still a case to be made that the board edge should be treated more like Impassible terrain for this purpose, but I could see people playing like this. If GW didn't want tanks to get shoved around they shouldn't have made them subject to being Tank Shocked in 4th edition.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/13 08:10:39


Post by: CaptAnderton


I see your point in this but if someone did this to me I would play them again and if it was at a tourny they would get hit on sportsmanship for finding loop holes in the rules.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/13 08:31:12


Post by: blue loki


Its not a loop hole.

The BGB tells you in black and white that the rules have been designed to enforce the designers intent that units should not hug the board edge, and that if you do so, your opponent can easily punish you by running those units off the board.

And, its incredibly simple to avoid. If you see a vehicle with a high armour value moving toward your vehicle camped at the board edge, move it before he can line up a tank shock. If you let a big tank close on your small tank, its your own damn fault.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/13 09:11:20


Post by: Kilkrazy


The Tank Shock rules themselves don't specifically say you can shove an infantry unit off the board, but they also don't say what happens to an infantry unit that has no legal place to go if it gets shoved. Ditto for vehicles, as far as I can see.

I'm happy to go with the idea that units that get shoved off the edge are eliminated.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/13 09:29:49


Post by: stjohn70


The biggest problem I have with tank-shocking things off the board edge, is that the rules are considered permissive. You have to be allowed to do something before you can do it.

And as far as I can tell, the only time a unit can move off the table is when they are falling back. Sure deep-strikers can deviate off, but that's still not moving.
So if a unit can either choose to move, or be forced to move (other than falling back), to off the table - then by all means you could do it.
But right now, I'm reading it that you can't.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/13 12:13:00


Post by: CaptAnderton


Ok after thinking about his I have concluded that you can't tank shock things off the table.

I gave the example of of the rhinos and pred pushing a devilfish off the table. Lets put a unit in there.

Ok I get tankshocked and I PASS my leadership. To go the shortest way I'd be off the table but I made my test. So I simply move the shortest safest place to go. So no you can't tank shock a vehicle off the table because it doesn't have a leadership and can't be chased off the table.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/13 12:52:47


Post by: Thunderkiss


If you did that you'd be breaking the rules and i'd hit YOU on sportsmanship. BBB clearly denounces hugging board edges while clearlyu stating "shortest route". If that route is the boardedge, you are off.
You can't go making up rules to suit the moment.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/13 13:45:03


Post by: CaptAnderton


In the rule book under tank shock it says you have to move the shortest but keep unit coherency AND you are UNHARMED. So you can't make them run off the board. This would harm them. So they would simply move the shortest safe place to go. YOu guys sure like to cheat a lot here.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/13 15:19:24


Post by: Longshot


It says you're unharmed as in you take no damage, not unharmed as in 'not pushed off the table and destroyed.'

Personally, my opinion is that this is perfectly legitimate and is a counter to the even lamer 'I put my butt to the invisible forcefield' tactic.

The ruleset is permissive. It specifically allows you to push things around with tank shock. It says they move out of the way by the least distance necessary to get them out of the way. Any other unit forced to leave the table is destroyed (fleeing, scattering). It is not much of a stretch at all, but it is not explicitly spelled out in its own section - perhaps because it seems to be self-evident.

I would tend to agree about the impassible terrain thing, except for the way fleeing units are treated. If fleeing units hit difficult terrain they go around it. If a fleeing unit hits the board edge it is destroyed. This clearly separates impassible terrain from the board edge.

I suspect it stands up to the RAW, but only because there are multiple ways units can be destroyed by hitting the board edge - this suggests that the board edge is not limited in its destructive capability only to certain scenarios. However, as there is no explicit wording that says 'board edge = death,' it is open to some interpretation.

It never, ever says you move out of the way in the safest way possible - you can, for example, be forced to walk into a Whirlwind minefield or into dangerous terrain. You give way by the shortest distance possible, not the safest shortest distance. This is spelled out:

"They must be moved out of the way by the shortest distance (Maintaining unit coherency), but otherwise the unit is unharmed (p 70)."

Some corroborating evidence is available on page 49, wherein:
"Once a unit reaches the table edge it is considered to have left the immediate battle and may not return." Someone has already quoted the designer's note so I'll leave that be.

It's a continued shock to me that your signature continues to have the gall to claim that you know the rules, Anderton. Perhaps you could adjust it to "I know how to make up the rules as I go along."


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/13 15:27:00


Post by: Longshot


Here are some other instances of leaving the board edge from various codexes:

Eldar Warp Spiders rules force them to first 'choose a direction' and then 'roll 2d6"' to see how far they teleport, and I'm fairly sure they get nuked if they go off the board edge.

Veil o' darkness, but that's like deep strike I believe.

Pods do not deep strike, they arrive by drop pod assault, and die if they scatter off, as has been mentioned.

I /believe/ that the Nightbringer can shove things away and potentially launch them out of CC off the edge, but I don't have a Necron codex handy so not sure about that (if someone could check it it'd be appreciated).

Stay 'way from the edge of the world, boyos! The game is extremely consistent on the count of 'if it goes to the board edge it is dead.'


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/13 16:18:48


Post by: CaptAnderton


Which is why making your leadership test means you are safe from the board edge.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/13 17:39:54


Post by: Thunderkiss


Posted By CaptAnderton on 03/13/2006 6:45 PM
In the rule book under tank shock it says you have to move the shortest but keep unit coherency AND you are UNHARMED. So you can't make them run off the board. This would harm them. So they would simply move the shortest safe place to go. YOu guys sure like to cheat a lot here.
 
 
You just CAN'T really be saying that ....... in fact, that is such an assinine statement i'm not even going to dignify it further.



Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/13 17:41:51


Post by: Thunderkiss


"Which is why making your leadership test means you are safe from the board edge."

Leadership: the new invulnerable save! not just for moral checks anymore!


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/13 18:03:21


Post by: citadel97501


Well I just read through it again and I can see an issue you could have with the example you are trying to use. . . In your example the devilfish would move the shortest distance to get out of the way of the Tank Shocking predator. . . Which happens to be directly over the top of one of the Rhino's or over the Predator depending on size since its a Skimmer, it can move over enemy models. . . Now if you use something thats not a Skimmer such as tank shocking a Rhino (instead of a DF) I don't know what would happen. . .

Board Board Board or Board Board Board
ooo ooo ooo                   ooo ooo ooo
  R    DF    R                      R    R     R
ooo ooo ooo                   ooo ooo ooo
       ooo                                 ooo
         P                                     P
       ooo                                 ooo


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/13 18:23:07


Post by: Longshot


If the shortest distance is off the board edge, it's gone, skimmer or not - it has to take the absolute shortest path to get out of the way. Since it can't end its move flying over something else, it's going to have a much shorter trip off the board edge. And it has to be at least an inch away from the shocking vehicle - on top of is certainly not an inch away.

Assuming of course that the other parts of the rules query hold up.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/13 19:22:49


Post by: Mannahnin


Actually I think his quote about it being unharmed is a sticking point here. Your claim that because the unit isn't taking wounds means that it's unharmed doesn't exactly hold water. If "pushed off the board" = dead, then that's certainly harm. Regular infantry units have to blow their morale test to run off the board. Otherwise they are supposed to move out of the way and be unharmed.

Now that I consider that quote, I am less than satisfied with pushing tanks (or infantry units which pass their Morale tests) off the board.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/13 22:12:52


Post by: citadel97501


Interestingly enough, if you fail the morale test from tank shock, you will begin to fall back and might run into trouble if the unit tank shocking you can move through your unit toward your deployment zone. . .

D = Devil Fish, SM = Space Marine
----12 Inches-----/----- 14 inches ------
Impassable Impassable Impassable
ooo        o   o                               Board
oPo -- o SM o                             Board
ooo        o   o                               Board

If the Devil Fish moves 12 inches forward, the space marines are going to have to move toward the bottom of the screen since the other side is impassable, if they fail the subsequent morale check, they will have to fall back 2d6 inches towards their board edge which happens to be near the Devil Fish, If they do so they should land within a couple inches of the devil fish making them unable to regroup during their next turn which makes them fall back another 2d6 inches probably off the board.



Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/13 22:38:47


Post by: Longshot


"If a unit is overrun by a tank, and individual models would end up underneath the vehicle, they must be moved out of the way by the shortest distance possible, but otherwise the unit is unharmed."

Unharmed is clearly talking about not getting squished by the tank and not being forced to flee. In being pushed off the board edge, it's walking off the board edge that is doing the killing not the tank shocking. You're not being harmed by the tank, you're being harmed by jumping off the edge of the world.

In order to take this unharmed quote to its natural conclusion with this line of thinking: Would we contend, then, that if a unit is forced into dangerous terrain or onto a minefield by being tankshocked, they will instead march 10" around the minefield/dangerous terrain so they avoid being harmed, since being tankshocked makes you invulnerable during its forced movement? Again I'd say no, since they're not being harmed by the tankshock, they're being harmed by lava/mines/broken power swords.

If you read the sentence as:
"If a unit is overrun by a tank, and individual models would end up underneath the vehicle, they must be moved out of the way by the shortest distance possible, but otherwise the unit is unharmed by suffering a tank shock." it makes a lot more sense, since that's what the sentence means if you read it in context.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/13 23:02:36


Post by: Mannahnin


Eh. I am loathe to add text like that.

If you're going to do that the rule could just as easily be read as "If the unit is overrung by a tank, and individual models would end up underneath the vehicle, they must be moved out of the way by the shortest route possible, but otherwise the unit is unharmed (place them into the nearest open space).

That would be more in keeping with the meaning of the word "unharmed". Forcing a unit off the table (by means of a failed Morale test) is clearly one of the main uses of Tank Shock, and it would be silly to think that the designers didn?t think of that as harm.



Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/14 00:40:33


Post by: CaptAnderton


Table edge = death. Death is bad. Harm is bad. Unharmed is good. Being on the table is good. So no pushing things off the table. If you honestly believe this is a goo tactic to use you are a coward. Whats the number 1 rule in 40K? To have fun playing a GAME. The rule does not support that you can push things off the table. Stop trying to find loopholes in the rules. I've been telling the stores near me what you guys think and there is a big anti-dakka movement going on. It's looking at rules like this that make you guys look bad.

The world is not flat.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/14 00:47:23


Post by: Mannahnin


Anderton, if you are badmouthing the website because you disagree with a few people on it, you're the coward. And you're asking to be banned.

Get a better argument and a better attitude.

You have been warned.

-The Management.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/14 02:19:14


Post by: CaptAnderton


All I'm saying is going over rules like this is one reason people don't like this site. Some people are trying to take advantages of rules so that they can win games. It's up to people like me to call them on it. The rules do not support pushing units and vehicles off the table in any way. Now if someone comes in here and sees this and has support for doing it then they are taking the FUN out of a game.

Say my unit of Space Marines regrouped next to the table edge and I get tanked shocked. I roll my leadership and make it. You are going to tell me that I have to lose my unit because going off the table is the shortest distance. Come on people this shouldn't be a hard thing to figure out. UNHARMED is just that.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/14 04:33:58


Post by: DaIronGob


I believe the actual wording of models leaving the table edge is "counted as destroyed" but they are not actually destroyed.

So you are out of the game and unharmed.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/14 12:27:18


Post by: insaniak


If you honestly believe this is a goo tactic to use you are a coward. Whats the number 1 rule in 40K? To have fun playing a GAME.

So do your opponents generally have much fun when you're branding them a 'coward' for having a different interpretation of a rule to yours?


All I'm saying is going over rules like this is one reason people don't like this site. Some people are trying to take advantages of rules so that they can win games.

See, the problem here is simply that, even after it has been explained to you on numerous occasions, you still don't understand what YMTC is all about.

We're not interested in taking advantage of rules. We are all fully aware that it's a game, and the main point is to have fun.

What you consistently ignore is that for some people, the game is more fun when they actually understand how the rule are supposed to work. What we discuss here is what the rules actually say. Not so that we can take advantage of loopholes... but simply so that when something weird happens mid-game, we know what the rules actually say about it. If you go back through the various rules discussions here, you'll find numerous cases where the concensus fell one way, but many players choose to play otherwise.

But, whatever. I have no doubt that you'll completely ignore what I've just written and continue your little crusade to right the 'wrongs' of Dakka culture. So I'll just go back to hiding under the couch, coward that I am. Somebody please protect me from the scary toy soldiers... Oh please no, God, the rules! The rules!


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/14 12:50:43


Post by: Odd the Quiet


All I'm saying is going over the rules like this is the reason I like this site.

If anyone wants to argue intent, fairness, or fluff they can post somewhere else.
I was looking at Warseer and they were arguing how warp scream affects models in cover. One guy was giving rules quotes and examples and the others were totally ignoring him and saying he was wrong without saying how.
This site is the one that is most technical and that makes it the best to me.

That said, I think vehicals can be destroyed by tank shock. They move "the shortest distance", are unharmed by the tankshock, and end up off the table where they can't come back, and that's the way I'm going to play it.

Table Edge = Danger = Stay Away.



Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/14 13:08:22


Post by: Bookwrack


Posted By Mannahnin on 03/14/2006 5:47 AM
Anderton, if you are badmouthing the website because you disagree with a few people on it, you're the coward. And you're asking to be banned.

Get a better argument and a better attitude.

You have been warned.

-The Management.


It's not like Airman Anderton is a real person anyway.  My vote is he's either an ALT for Mauleed, or Yakface's evil secondary personality.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/14 13:34:53


Post by: Lowinor


Actually I think his quote about it being unharmed is a sticking point here. Your claim that because the unit isn't taking wounds means that it's unharmed doesn't exactly hold water.

It specifically says "otherwise the unit is unharmed" -- any harm caused by the actual move itself -- e.g., being chased off the table -- doesn't apply.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/14 13:55:01


Post by: bigchris1313


It's not like Airman Anderton is a real person anyway. My vote is he's either an ALT for Mauleed, or Yakface's evil secondary personality.


Ooh. An alt for Ed? Unlikely. Intriguing, certainly. But unlikely. I like the idea of Yakface's evil secondary personality though. The mild-mannered, fight-stopping, problem-solving mod of YMDC has a sinister alter-ego: The Captain!

That's fun.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/14 14:00:30


Post by: Thunderkiss


Posted By CaptAnderton on 03/14/2006 5:40 AM
Table edge = death. Death is bad. Harm is bad. Unharmed is good. Being on the table is good. So no pushing things off the table. If you honestly believe this is a goo tactic to use you are a coward. Whats the number 1 rule in 40K? To have fun playing a GAME. The rule does not support that you can push things off the table. Stop trying to find loopholes in the rules. I've been telling the stores near me what you guys think and there is a big anti-dakka movement going on. It's looking at rules like this that make you guys look bad.

The world is not flat.
 
Actually, for starters, the warhammer world IS flat. i find it amusing that you use so many real world analogies for this game.
 
Pssssst ...... THIS ISN'T REAL!
 
And secondly, if your units are so close to the board edge that this happens to you then you deserve it and YOU are the coward, as clearly stated in the rules.
Repeat after me capt, hugging board edges is for cowards, The BBB says so,hugging board edges is for cowards The BBB says so ........
 
 




Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/14 14:11:00


Post by: insaniak


Careful... he'll send the anti-dakka movement after you...


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/14 15:29:13


Post by: Longshot


Posted By Mannahnin on 03/14/2006 4:02 AM
Eh. I am loathe to add text like that.

If you're going to do that the rule could just as easily be read as" if="" overrung="" a="" tank="" and="" individual="" models="" would="" end="" up="" underneath="" vehicle="" they="" must="" be="" moved="" out="" of="" way="" by="" shortest="" route="" possible="" but="" otherwise="" unit="" is="" unharmed="" (place="" them="" into="" the="" nearest="" open="" space)[/b="">

That would be more in keeping with the meaning of the word "unharmed". Forcing a unit off the table (by means of a failed Morale test) is clearly one of the main uses of Tank Shock, and it would be silly to think that the designers didn?t think of that as harm.



I'm not adding text so much as I am examining sentence structure.

If the unit is overrun by a tank they must be moved out of the way by the shortest route possible, but otherwise they are unharmed.

The meaning is clear. They are not harmed by being run over by the tank. One cause and one effect, and one explanation of what other effects do not occur as a result of the cause. The cause in this case is purely 'being run over by a tank.' This cause cannot bring about any results other than forcing the unit to move out of the way.

The 'forcing to move out of the way' can cause other effects not brought about by the tank shocking.

If you're forced to move into a minefield or a dangerous terrain area you are still moving (.. forced to move ..) and suffer the consequences of moving (which are not consequences of being tank shocked). If the text said "place the models out of the way of the tank" I would be convinced, but it says they are forced to move and as such are subject to the limitations and consequences of movement.

And honestly, I'm not looking for loopholes to win games, because I don't play but one army that uses tanks (and that only infrequently). I'm looking for an answer to the 'board edge forcefield' tactic people use on their rear armor, which I find to be just as ridiculous and just as UN FUN as having my crap shocked off the board edge. So far this seems like a pretty legitimate tactic. There's no reasoning against it other than 'it says unharmed' but as I think Insaniak pointed out, they're not even harmed! They're 'counted' as destroyed but they really just left the battlefield and were not harmed (see the text on fleeing troops for this - it says they've left the battlefield to go tell stories of woe and defeat to their pals).






Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/14 23:06:56


Post by: Kilkrazy


I agree with Longshot. But it doesn't fully satisfy the problems with Tank Shock as we still don't know what happens to units (Infantry or Vehicle) which are not pushed off the board edge but are either pushed into impassable terrain or enemy units.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/15 00:07:28


Post by: Longshot


In the case of impassible terrain, you walk around it, as you can't move through difficult terrain or within 1" of an enemy unit (and you are directed to move by the rules).

The only question that remains is whether you can move off he board edge outside of fleeing or deviation. It has been established that the board edge is not the same as impassible terrain due to the way that fleeing models treat them (they move around difficult terrain, but off the board edge). The rules seem to support being forced to move off the board edge by a variety of means but the bone of contention is (in my mind) whether or not this is limited only to specific cases (fleeing, deviation) or to any sort of involuntary movement.

My tendency is to say that any involuntary movement off the board edge counts as leaving the battle since the game mechanics are so consistent on this. However, I wouldn't mind if some more folks went over it for things I've missed or threw the question at the GW rules folks who will be doing the main rulebook FAQ soon.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/15 00:32:51


Post by: CaptAnderton


Two things will remain in my mind.

1. Deepstriking can take you off the board.

2. Failing moral checks can take y ou off the board edge.

If you do not deepstrike and you make your moral check you can't be forced off the table. No matter how many fluffy words you use to say you can tank shock them off you can't. You have a - responce and a + responce to Tank shock. You can't have both. No cake and eat it also.

I'd like to see you pull this on someone and see if they play you again.

"Hey man sorry. You have to go off the board in the shortest distance and that takes you off the table."

"WHAT?"

"Yep it's in the rule book and Dakka supports it."

"I don't what you have read if I make my test I'm good to go."

"Not by RAW."

"So do you want to play a game or is winning by coming up with bs rules your way of having fun?"


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/15 01:50:26


Post by: Kilkrazy


Captain, what do you say happens to a unit that gets Tank Shocked and its only available path is off the edge of the table? Does it bounce back from the edge?


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/15 01:56:29


Post by: CaptAnderton


Until I see in black and white.

"UNITS THAT PASS MORAL CHECK AND VEHICLES CAN BE TANKED SHOCKED OFF THE TABLE."

It will never happen in a game I play.

Again don't play like a coward. Even trying this in my store will get you laughed at. Might even get you pulled out back for an attitude ajustment.





Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/15 02:00:55


Post by: Odd the Quiet


You have a - responce and a + responce to Tank shock.

Right, your models can run off the board edge or they can walk off it.

A morale check is for determining if a unit is "falling back" and will need to rally at the start of their next turn.
If they pass, you maintain control of their movement.
If they fail, they continue to fall back.

If they have to move off the board edge it doesn't matter if they did it in an orderly fashion or not.
Either way they are off the board and out of the game.

It will never happen in a game I play.

If that's your choice it's yours to make and the reason you shouldn't get bent out of shape over a rules interpretation. Even if it's one no one else is choosing to apply.

Anderton, answer Kilkrazy's question. What does happen in that instance?



Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/15 04:36:13


Post by: Kilkrazy


Captain, how do they play it at your store? I am interested because the rules do not fully support the conclusion that a unit can be pushed off, but they do not fully support any other conclusion either, as far as I can tell.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/15 04:43:23


Post by: snooggums


I would move them behind the tank that is now at the board edge. Since it does not state at what point during the charge they are moving, only that they end up the shortest distance possible, They could move up and out of the way before the tank comes in. I can't see any other way to play it without breaking rules, it may sound illogical but at least the rules are bing followed.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/15 04:46:48


Post by: CaptAnderton


Lets see...hmmm....Moves to the shortest unharmed place to go. So you'd move down the board edge away from the vehicle.

But wait.

I'll start modeling my units with red capes. This way when your tank come to shock me at the board edge I can pull it out of the way and watch your tank go off the edge and never return.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/15 04:52:41


Post by: snooggums


Posted By Odd the Quiet on 03/15/2006 7:00 AM

Right, your models can run off the board edge or they can walk off it.

A morale check is for determining if a unit is "falling back" and will need to rally at the start of their next turn.
If they pass, you maintain control of their movement.
If they fail, they continue to fall back.

If they have to move off the board edge it doesn't matter if they did it in an orderly fashion or not.
Either way they are off the board and out of the game.

 

Actually, the rules only give the opportunity to go off the table when falling back to your own deployment edge after losing a morale check. The rules do not ever allow you to voluntarily walk run or tumble off of any of the other sides.



Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/15 05:16:18


Post by: blue loki


Posted By snooggums on 03/15/2006 9:52 AM
Actually, the rules only give the opportunity to go off the table when falling back to your own deployment edge after losing a morale check. The rules do not ever allow you to voluntarily walk run or tumble off of any of the other sides.



Actually, thats not quite true as of 4th edition.

If a model simply touches the edge, it is removed from play. You don't have to actually move off of the board, you simply have to touch the edge and you are gone.

Since any model can make a legal move up to the edge of the board, any model can now cause itself to be removed from play.

Basically:

P1: Any model can move anywhere on the board within its movement/assault phase, taking into account terrain, special rules, and that model's movement characteristic.

P2: The area up to the board edge is valid area for this movement.

P3: There is no rule stating that you cannot move up to the board edge and touch it (without crossing it).

P4: When a model touches the board edge, that model is removed from play.

P5: A model can touch the board edge without crossing it.

C: A model which makes a legal move ending in that model touching, but not necessarily crossing, the board edge is removed from play. Since this is a legal move, it need not be compulsory. I.E. the model can accidentially remove itself from play by touching the board edge.



Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/15 05:20:50


Post by: CaptAnderton


So by the edge logic you would never get units from reserves. Why? Because they start at the board edge and have to be removed from play. Man this game is getting easier to play by the Dakka rules. Man this saves so much time setting up models.

Any model touching a board edge is lost. Next time I play I'll move all my models to the board edge to give my opponent the fastest victory ever.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/15 05:39:31


Post by: blue loki


Hey, I didn't write the rules, I just read 'em. The designers explicitly say that if you touch the board edge you are gone. *Poof*

Now, does "reserves" state that they begin the turn on the board touching the edge, or does it say that they move on from the edge on the turn they arrive?
If its the first one, then that is an obvious rules contradiction and you'd have to use common sense to work it out.
If its the second, then placing the models on the board before the movement phase is an unofficial gaming-convention (in addition to giving you an illegal basewidth of extra movement). As the models are not yet on the board, they cannot touch the edge.

Either way, if you fail to move the reserves units away from the board edge during the movement phase on the turn they arrive, they they are definately destroyed.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/15 05:46:08


Post by: Odd the Quiet


Hey, I didn't write the rules, I just read 'em. The designers explicitly say that if you touch the board edge you are gone. *Poof*


Designer's Note: This is a purposefully harsh ruling to discourage players hugging table edges too closely with their forces instead of getting into the thick of the action.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/15 05:48:16


Post by: snooggums


Posted By blue loki on 03/15/2006 10:39 AM
Hey, I didn't write the rules, I just read 'em. The designers explicitly say that if you touch the board edge you are gone. *Poof*


But can you quote them? I know about the one that is explicitly written with the example of keeping people from hugging thier own table edge to get a second leadership test to keep from running all the way off the table like they did in 3rd. Can you quote the rule(s) where you can touch any table edge voluntarily and be removed?


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/15 05:50:06


Post by: blue loki


Sorry, no book on me. It looks like odd might have it with him. Odd could you post the bit before that designers note?


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/15 05:52:32


Post by: Odd the Quiet


The BGB doesn't specify which board edges.

It says:

LEAVING THE BATTLE

"Once a unit reaches the table edge it is cosidered to have left the immediate battle and may not return. Note there is no need for individual models in the unit to move "off" the table - once a model reaches the edge that unit has gone! The unit takes no further part in the battle and is removed, doubtless spreading tales of the unstoppable nature of the foes they were facing to their compatriots behind the front lines."



Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/15 05:55:09


Post by: snooggums


That chunck is pretty out of context. Does it say when falling back "once they reach the table edge" they are destroyed? Is it in the section for falling back and only talk about falling back when it has this line?


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/15 05:57:01


Post by: blue loki


There you go.

So in the end, you don't have to tank shock something over the edge, you simply have to give it no option but to move so that it ends up touching the table edge itself, resulting in a *poof* magically dissappearing unit, be it vehicle or non-vehicle.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/15 05:59:37


Post by: snooggums


No it isn't established, wait for the context of the quote. Concludingoff those 7 words is like saying that rapid fire weapons can't fire at 21 inches simply by quoting "Rapid fire weapons fire twice up to 12 inches." Without the rest of the stuff around it (actual weapon range) the few words don't make a final rule.



Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/15 06:01:23


Post by: blue loki


No problem snoog. You are absolutely correct, my post was a bit premature. *blush*


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/15 06:02:07


Post by: Jayden63


All, I'm going to say is that anyone who lets a unit/tank whatever get surrounded on three sides with their butts against their own table edge, deserve what ever happens to them.

This situation just stinks of not enough information from GW to actually make a proper decision.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/15 06:04:23


Post by: Odd the Quiet


Editted last post : More complete rules quote.

The rules are under the "Regrouping" headline in the "Morale" section.
I don't take that to mean it only applies to falling back models.
It is under the morale rules, but doesn't specify "falling back" only.



Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/15 06:10:04


Post by: snooggums


Posted By Odd the Quiet on 03/15/2006 11:04 AM
The rules are under the "Regrouping" headline in the "Morale" section.
I don't take that to mean it only applies to falling back models.
It is under the morale rules, but doesn't specify "falling back" only.



Yeah, it would be stupid to think that rules in the "Regrouping" section would only only apply to models trying to regroup . Can you just post the sentences before the touching and destroyed part? Like if it says "Any model that fails it's leadership and falls back rolls 2d6 and falls back that distance. If that unit touches the table edge it is destroyed." Because the context does matter, and the rules in the fall back section will in most cases only apply to falling back models unless it specifies otherwise. It's called "context" and while YMDC generally ignores context it is relly important in this case.

 

EDIT :I was typing when you edited the previous post. Does the paragraph follow directly after the part about falling back? you don't have to quote that whole part as the fluff in the rule makes it pretty clear, but I just want to be clear that this follows the rules about falling back.



Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/15 06:15:04


Post by: DaIronGob


The rules are under the "Regrouping" headline in the "Morale" section, I don't take that to mean it only applies to falling back models.
It is under the morale rules, but doesn't specify "falling back" only.


If it is in the morale sections under regrouping how can it NOT only be for falling back models? think about it. Good grief.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/15 06:15:49


Post by: Odd the Quiet


The rules for "FALL BACK!" and "REGROUPING" discuss movement, firing and being assaulted while falling back. It says failed Leadership tests result in continued movement but table edges are only referenced in that one paragraph.

The rules for "LEAVING THE BATTLE" don't specify models falling back or which table edge. Where the rules are in the book does not specify which models are affected. This is the best spot for them as this is when they will usually be applied. But not only be applied.



Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/15 06:21:10


Post by: DaIronGob


Ok so the edges are only referenced in the ONE paragraph so that must mean it applies to the ENTIRE rulebook and the rules therein and not just to the models in a unit that is falling back? lol... that's hilarious.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/15 06:22:58


Post by: snooggums


Posted By Odd the Quiet on 03/15/2006 11:15 AM
The rules for "FALL BACK!" and "REGROUPING" discuss movement, firing and being assaulted while falling back. It says failed Leadership tests result in continued movement but table edges are only referenced in that one paragraph.


Normal movement is defined ealier in the book in right before shooting (pg 19 or so). Is there anything in there about being removed for touching a table edge?


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/15 06:29:11


Post by: Odd the Quiet


Normal movement is defined ealier in the book in right before shooting (pg 19 or so). Is there anything in there about being removed for touching a table edge?

No mention of table edge.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/15 06:34:44


Post by: DaIronGob


Normal movement is defined ealier in the book in right before shooting (pg 19 or so). Is there anything in there about being removed for touching a table edge?

No mention of table edge.



Then there you go. Normal movement is not included in the "poof table edge" argument.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/15 06:37:03


Post by: Odd the Quiet


I disagree. Without any other rules covering this situation the ones for "Leaving Battle" are the only ones that can be applied.

For the record, I'm playing the devil's advocate here, I don't completely believe in my position but I will take it.



Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/15 06:46:21


Post by: CaptAnderton


I think I have put enough holes in this post. You can't tank shock unit off the table if they make a leadership test. You can't do it to vehicles either.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/15 06:47:05


Post by: Kilkrazy


The point about Tank Shock is that the target models have to be moved out of the way of the tank BEFORE they take a morale check and perhaps fall back. Also, vehicles are not subject to morale though they are subject to Tank Shock forced movement.

So we still don't know what happens to a unit forced to move by tank shock while not having any legal move available, or only having a clear path off the board edge.



Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/15 06:48:00


Post by: snooggums


Posted By Odd the Quiet on 03/15/2006 11:15 AM

The rules for "FALL BACK!" and "REGROUPING" discuss movement, firing and being assaulted while falling back. It says failed Leadership tests result in continued movement but table edges are only referenced in that one paragraph.

The rules for "LEAVING THE BATTLE" don't specify models falling back or which table edge. Where the rules are in the book does not specify which models are affected. This is the best spot for them as this is when they will usually be applied. But not only be applied.



I just disagree with this line of reasoning and it happens multiple times in YMDC. The area of the book that the rules are in clearly affect how they are used. The section we are discussiong directly follows the falling back, logically as an effect of falling back. It also discusses how the models leaving are because of their unstoppable opponent which would give an indication of them fleeing. It is clearly there as the results of falling back when the falling back unit hits the table edge, otherwise it would be in the movement area where it discusses where models can be on the board.

This is like the section in the front of the book called "Model height and bases" where it mentions that range is measured from the closest edge of the base because the models occupies it. They see that as a rule as opposed to an example, and it has to be an example because it is in the base and heights guidelines. There is a separate section called "LOS and range" that repeats this example and gives the actual rules for range. Context matters, and quoting a rule out of context causes a lot more confusion in this case because people don't know that the "touching the table edge" comes from the falling back section and is therefore result of falling back.

 



Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/15 06:49:11


Post by: DaIronGob


disagree. Without any other rules covering this situation the ones for "Leaving Battle" are the only ones that can be applied.


So in that sense any rule that is singled out to a specific entry that is not ever mentioned elsewhere applies to all rules?

The table edge "leaving the battle" is only mentioned in regards to models and units falling back. That is very specific.



Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/15 06:52:12


Post by: Kilkrazy


To the Captain again; I'm not suggesting shocked units should fall off the board. I'm asking what happens if they can't move anywhere.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/15 06:54:53


Post by: DaIronGob


I think I have put enough holes in this post.


Oh so you are a WOOD pecker, putting holes into posts... I always wondered what kind of pecker you were. ;-)


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/15 07:00:44


Post by: Odd the Quiet


CaptAnderton:
I think I have put enough holes in this post. You can't tank shock unit off the table if they make a leadership test. You can't do it to vehicles either.

I think you haven't contributed anything useful in over two pages.

DaIronGob:
The table edge "leaving the battle" is only mentioned in regards to models and units falling back. That is very specific

Fine, I wasn't too dedicated to that idea anyway and will concede the point.

Kilkrazy:
I'm asking what happens if they can't move anywhere.

So what happens?



Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/15 07:00:53


Post by: snooggums


Posted By Kilkrazy on 03/15/2006 11:47 AM
The point about Tank Shock is that the target models have to be moved out of the way of the tank BEFORE they take a morale check and perhaps fall back. Also, vehicles are not subject to morale though they are subject to Tank Shock forced movement.

So we still don't know what happens to a unit forced to move by tank shock while not having any legal move available, or only having a clear path off the board edge.



I agree with this as the final answer, there is no set rule for what happens when the unit cannot make a legal move (tank shocking down a valley that the tank cannot move side to side in). This is definately something you would have to work out with your opponent.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/15 08:21:23


Post by: Antonin


Is there anything saying that you cannot move off the table? Units that are falling back that contact the edge are gone; we know that. However, I do not recall anything saying that you cannot move off the table. Or move partly off the table.

As an aside, though, assuming arguendo that a vehicle could be pushed off the table, does anyone have a rule saying that it would then count for victory points? Yes, it's off the table, but I'm not recalling a rule saying that models off the table count for VPs; The rules giving VPs for off-table models are usually described in the location where that event could occur (like deepstriking, falling back, etc.) Have I missed a rule somewhere?


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/15 09:12:19


Post by: snooggums


Posted By Antonin on 03/15/2006 1:21 PM
Is there anything saying that you cannot move off the table? Units that are falling back that contact the edge are gone; we know that. However, I do not recall anything saying that you cannot move off the table. Or move partly off the table.

As an aside, though, assuming arguendo that a vehicle could be pushed off the table, does anyone have a rule saying that it would then count for victory points? Yes, it's off the table, but I'm not recalling a rule saying that models off the table count for VPs; The rules giving VPs for off-table models are usually described in the location where that event could occur (like deepstriking, falling back, etc.) Have I missed a rule somewhere?


Permissive rule set. There are a lot of things the rules don't mention, and if it does not mention them then you cannot do it.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/15 09:35:30


Post by: insaniak


Is there anything saying that you cannot move off the table? Units that are falling back that contact the edge are gone; we know that. However, I do not recall anything saying that you cannot move off the table. Or move partly off the table.

The rules merely allow models to move, without setting any boundaries. The only times the board edge is mentioned that I'm aware of is in the 'Leaving the Battle' rule in the Regrouping section, and in the mission-specific Reserves rules for Reserves entering the game. The only time models being removed for hitting the board edge is mentioned is in the Regrouping section.

So no, there is nothing that says you can not move off the table. There is, instead, a general rule that allows models to move without setting any specific area into which they can not move, other than impassable terrain.




As an aside, though, assuming arguendo that a vehicle could be pushed off the table, does anyone have a rule saying that it would then count for victory points? Yes, it's off the table, but I'm not recalling a rule saying that models off the table count for VPs


The Victory Points table lists off-table non-vehicle units, independant characters, and artillery as counting for VPs. Vehicles are not listed as counting for VPs when off-table.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/15 10:47:52


Post by: Antonin


Posted By snooggums on 03/15/2006 2:12 PM
Posted By Antonin on 03/15/2006 1:21 PM
Is there anything saying that you cannot move off the table? Units that are falling back that contact the edge are gone; we know that. However, I do not recall anything saying that you cannot move off the table. Or move partly off the table.

As an aside, though, assuming arguendo that a vehicle could be pushed off the table, does anyone have a rule saying that it would then count for victory points? Yes, it's off the table, but I'm not recalling a rule saying that models off the table count for VPs; The rules giving VPs for off-table models are usually described in the location where that event could occur (like deepstriking, falling back, etc.) Have I missed a rule somewhere?


Permissive rule set. There are a lot of things the rules don't mention, and if it does not mention them then you cannot do it.


As Insaniak points out, we have permission to move. Thus, the requirement of "permissive rules set" has been answered. so that isn't an objection to driving your tanks off, or partly off, the table.

Insaniak, interesting point you make about vehicles not counting for VPs if they're off the table.

I'm interested in hearing what people have to say, but it seems to me that yes, you can tank shock vehicles off the table, but they wouldn't give up any victory points. Also, remember that if you drive straight at a tank that is on the edge, and stop when you are overlapping it by one inch, the closest way it can avoid is by going off the table - that way it moves 1.5 inches, while to move to one side would require a movement of at least 3 inches. Thus, you only need one high front armor tank to push enemy tanks off the table, not two, or three.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/15 11:02:51


Post by: snooggums


The rules do not state that you can move off the board, except when falling back due to failing morale checks. Just being able to move is not the same as being able to move off the board. In chess for example you can move any distance with the queen in a straight line, but that does not mean you can move off the board. This is a similar situation.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/15 11:18:55


Post by: Longshot


It's actually completely in context. There's a new section called "Leaving the Battle" as I recall and there is absolutely no mention that it has anything to do with fleeing, except that the section it is under is "Regrouping" or some such.

It's arguable whether it applies to all units or simply fleeing units but I think the former is the best interpretation given the facts. It seems to be a general rule on leaving the fight by the board edge, and is coupled with the designer's note discussing the baddyness of hugging the board edge.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/15 11:18:57


Post by: Kilkrazy


I disagree with Snoogums. 40K isn't chess. The general movement rules allow you to move anywhere except where there are restrictions such as enemy units or unpassable terrain. The board edge is not unpassable terrain so there is no reason why a unit could not move off it. No-one would voluntarily move off it but Tank Shock provokes involuntary movement.

On balance it makes more sense that a unit could be pushed off the board than that it magically makes the oncoming tank bounce because there isn't a rule saying it can move off the board.

This is not a RAW argument but it's one of the few cases where the designers' intent has been made clear within the rules. Units are not supposed to hug the board edge for safety and should be punished for doing so. That's my conclusion.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/15 11:29:41


Post by: Longshot


1. Units can move off the board edge voluntarily or involuntarily.
2. Units can be forced to move with a tank shock.
3. Where units move by Tank Shock can be manipulated because they must do so by the shortest distance necessary.
4. Units can be moved in disadvantageous ways by Tank Shock, because the Tank Shock is not harming them, it is the subsequent movement that is doing so.

Conclusion: Units can be forced to move into mine fields, dangerous terrain, or off the board edge by Tank Shock.

I think that sets us up the bomb. However, I do tend to agree that if you wanted to pull this you had best discuss it beforehand and warn people because it's a fairly careful reading of the rules and a drastic change from the previous edition.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/15 11:38:25


Post by: Kilkrazy


That's settled then.

Now, what about tank shocking targets who have no legal move open to them? What happens?


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/15 11:38:47


Post by: insaniak


The rules do not state that you can move off the board, except when falling back due to failing morale checks. Just being able to move is not the same as being able to move off the board. In chess for example you can move any distance with the queen in a straight line, but that does not mean you can move off the board. This is a similar situation.

In chess, the board is a clearly defined playing area. That's the difference... they haven't bothered defining an actual area of play in 40K for any purpose other than fleeing or deploying Reserves.

The rules do no define the board edge as any sort of barrier. There is no statement in the movement rules that defines the board edge, or the area of the room beyond the board, as being in any way impassable. Models are simply allowed to move their movement distance.

Models off-table are not (with the exception of Deep Strikers) defined as destroyed, damaged, or removed from play... they simply award VPs at the end of the game if they are not Vehicles, and if they were Falling Back play no further part in the game.

So within the rules as written, a model is allowed to move straight off the board if it wishes. A skimmer could presumably move off the board and fly around the room for a couple of turns, and then move back on again later... UNLESS you choose to take the rules given in the Regrouping section to apply to any model that touches the board edge for any reason.



Note that the above is merely going by RAW. I'm not advocating that you play that way... merely that it's what is provided by the rules. Common sense should tell you that the board is a defined playing area. But the rules simply don't cover how the models should interact with that boundary.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/15 11:55:52


Post by: Antonin


Posted By Kilkrazy on 03/15/2006 4:38 PM
That's settled then.

Now, what about tank shocking targets who have no legal move open to them? What happens?


Heh, that's funny. Never thoght about that! Well, I'ld say they move out of the way. After all, the move required by tank shocking doesn't care if the model being pushed has no movement left (i.e. it moved its max last turn) or if some other rule would prevent it from moving (such as having deepstruck in last turn.) So I say an immobile vehicle would move. That's one way to deal with droppods!


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/15 12:36:42


Post by: Odd the Quiet


The Tank Shock rules make an exception for vehicles that are immobile, or have equal or higher front AV.
They stop shockers 1" away.

Now, what about tank shocking targets who have no legal move open to them? What happens?
If a model can't move off the board edge or otherwise get out of the way, and fails it's morale check, I say it's crushed. If it passes it's leadership test, it gets a Death or Glory attempt. If that fails it is crushed.

Edit: removed statement concerning vehicles



Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/15 13:11:27


Post by: insaniak


The Tank Shock rules make an exception for vechicles that are immobile

Actually, they make an exception for vehicles that are immobilised, not vehicles that are immobile.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/15 13:21:15


Post by: Odd the Quiet


What's the difference?


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/15 13:29:54


Post by: Bookwrack


So how exactly would a situation arise where the only way a unit can react to tank shock is by going off the table? Is there any way to do it, other than the unit is sitting by the board edge, sandwhiched between two pieces of impassable terrain, which is spaced just wide enough for the tank to get through?

Also, what else would have to have happened for this to allow the tank shocking player to win the game?

Y'know, Turn Signals on a Land Raider did a strip about tank shocking a unit right off the edge of the board once (Waugh!*crash!*) That's a good enough source to prove to me that it can be done.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/15 13:40:25


Post by: insaniak


What's the difference?

Something that is immobile doesn't move.
Something that is immobilised is prevented from moving.

A Drop Pod is immobile.
A vehicle suffering an immobilised Damage result is immobilised.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/15 13:52:44


Post by: Odd the Quiet


I see it as:
Something that is immobile can't move.

A Drop Pod is immobile.
A vehicle suffering an immobilised Damage result is immobile.

Furthermore, if a vehicle is "trapped on edge" and it can be pushed off the table, it will be. If it can't be pushed off the edge it will stop the shocker 1" away, as it can't legally move.

Of course none of this is RAW supported, I'm offering it as a possibility.

Edit:

Or more RAW wise. Immobilised vehicles "may not move for the rest of the game". After a pod is placed it may not move for the rest of the game and may be considered an "immobilised vehicle".

But that makes trapped vehicles not count as immobilsed if trapped as they can still move for the rest of the game. I say forcing off edge is possible.



Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/15 14:11:47


Post by: insaniak


A Drop Pod is immobile.
A vehicle suffering an immobilised Damage result is immobile.

Yes, both of those things are immobile. But only the damaged vehicle has been immobilised.

The rules for tank shock don't deal with immobile vehicles, only with immobilised ones.

Someone who is being pushed is moving. However, someone who is moving is not necessarily being pushed.
In the same way, an immobilised vehicle is immobile. An immobile vehicle is not necessarily immobilised.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/15 14:18:31


Post by: Odd the Quiet


Aww man, I give up. I going to go somewhere else for awhile. Good luck!

I'm going to go cheer up!

Edit: On second thought, that link isn't very nice. It isn't bad, it's just not nice. Go here instead.



Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/16 01:50:59


Post by: snooggums


Posted By insaniak on 03/15/2006 4:38 PM

In chess, the board is a clearly defined playing area. That's the difference... they haven't bothered defining an actual area of play in 40K for any purpose other than fleeing or deploying Reserves.

So the beginning of the book where is says the game is played on a table, usually 4x6 or 4x8 doesn't "define the board"? Chess is played on a chess board, the board is the area you can place and move your items. I think it is a perfect example of how the board edge is a clear boundary for the area in play.
Don't take lack of further posts as concession to being able to voluntarily move off the board or being able to move off and back on the board.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/16 02:08:08


Post by: Longshot


There's no concrete proof. Either you take the 'Leaving the Table' heading in the Regrouping section to be independent or you take it to be dependent. Since it gets its own heading 'Leaving the Table,' I am inclined to take it as independent. However, that's the crux of the issue right there and only an FAQ is going to clear it up.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/16 02:15:36


Post by: CaptAnderton


Everyone here should understand what that rule is for. Units that have failed a test. That is all it's about. Nothing more and nothing less.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/16 05:35:12


Post by: Kilkrazy


My problem is to understand what happens to a unit (infantry) that is required to move out of the way of Tank Shock, then take a test, but can't move out of the way.

Should it take the test where it stands? If it passes, what happens? Should it just not take the test? Then what happens?

Vehicles are an issue as well.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/16 05:53:23


Post by: Odd the Quiet


This is how I see it Kilkrazy,

If units can be pushed off edge, infantry failing its test will be pushed, infantry passing it's test will get a Death or Glory attempt and if that fails it is pushed, smaller mobile vehicles are pushed.

If units can't be pushed off edge, infantry failing it's test will be crushed, infantry passing it's test will get it's Death or Glory attempt and if that fails it is crushed, vechicles will stop shockers 1" away.

Kilkrazy: Where do you stand on "Leaving The Table" does it apply to any unit or only units falling back? How would you interpret the rules for the situation?


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/16 09:23:35


Post by: insaniak


snooggums
So the beginning of the book where is says the game is played on a table, usually 4x6 or 4x8 doesn't "define the board"?

It might do, if it actually said that.

All it says is that "Most players use a 6'x4' gaming board made from chipboard on top of the table to extend their playing area."

Which, you have to admit, doesn't sound that much like a rule defining a playing area. Particularly if your gaming board is made of something other than chipboard

Basically, the rulebook gives a bare mention that the game is played on a board/table/area of floor. But it makes no effort to define the boundaries of that playing area, nor does it define how units interact with that (undefined) boundary, with the exception of units Falling Back or arriving from Reserves.


Kilkrazy
My problem is to understand what happens to a unit (infantry) that is required to move out of the way of Tank Shock, then take a test, but can't move out of the way.

Here's how I read it:
You declare that you are Tank Shocking a unit. You measure the movement distance, and determine the final position of the tank. Any models that would be underneath the tank once it reaches this position are moved out of the way by the shortest distance possible. There is nothing that says that this movement can not be in the direction from which the tank came.

The movement to get out of the way only affects models who would actually wind up underneath the tank when it reaches the end of its move: "If a unit is overrun by a tank, and individual models would end up underneath the vehicle..."

Any models in between the tank's start point and finish point do not need to be moved... only those that wind up under the tank when it has finished its move. Those models can simply be moved behind the tank, with the rest of the unit.

I can't think of any situation where the models would have nowhere to go.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/16 09:27:16


Post by: CaptAnderton


STOP MAKING UP RULES. THERE IS A RULE. You move out of the way the shortest distance and you are unharmed. It's that simple.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/16 09:29:45


Post by: dreddnott


Don't ever stop posting, CaptAnderton. I don't think we'd quite know what to do with ourselves!

I throw my lot in with the people who think you can tank shock infantry and vehicles off the board.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/16 09:32:46


Post by: insaniak


STOP MAKING UP RULES. THERE IS A RULE. You move out of the way the shortest distance and you are unharmed. It's that simple.

Who were you replying to? Because that's what I just said...


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/16 10:07:47


Post by: snooggums


Posted By insaniak on 03/16/2006 2:23 PM
snooggums
So the beginning of the book where is says the game is played on a table, usually 4x6 or 4x8 doesn't "define the board"?

It might do, if it actually said that.

All it says is that "Most players use a 6'x4' gaming board made from chipboard on top of the table to extend their playing area."

Which, you have to admit, doesn't sound that much like a rule defining a playing area. Particularly if your gaming board is made of something other than chipboard

Basically, the rulebook gives a bare mention that the game is played on a board/table/area of floor. But it makes no effort to define the boundaries of that playing area, nor does it define how units interact with that (undefined) boundary, with the exception of units Falling Back or arriving from Reserves.


Logically, if the area is defined by the players, then whatever they determine to be their playing area would set the boundaries. With a permissive rule set, once you set a playing area you can only play in the playing area unless the rules allow you to do otherwise. All games that have a playing area follow this convention, and have any rules necissary should the boundary have a chance of being crossed. Most have a set measurement for the playing area, but 40k allows the players to set the final amount. This does not keep it from having a boundary at the edge of the playable area, and it doesn't need instructions on what happens if you touch a board edge because all you are doing is reaching the edge of the playable area and then you cannot go any further.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/16 10:14:15


Post by: Triggerbaby


My warm and pleasantly tangy offer still stands, Cap'n.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/16 12:21:20


Post by: insaniak


Logically, if the area is defined by the players, then whatever they determine to be their playing area would set the boundaries. With a permissive rule set, once you set a playing area you can only play in the playing area unless the rules allow you to do otherwise. All games that have a playing area follow this convention, and have any rules necissary should the boundary have a chance of being crossed.

Actually, that's a fair point.

In which case, the only time you can cross the boundary is when specifically allowed by the rules... which would be when Falling Back, or when arriving from Reserves.

Unless, of course, you choose to apply the 'touching the board edge' rule from the Regrouping rules to any situation where a model touches the board edge... which I think is a bit of a stretch.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/16 12:31:38


Post by: Longshot


If a model 'reaches' the board edge it is counted removed and counted as destroyed.

Reserves move on from the board edge, they never touch it.

So if you walk up to it you're gone, baby.

I think that rule applies to every scenario not just falling back. It is a general rule, meant to apply to any of a half-dozen situations where you would be forced to move in XX direction (fleeing, scattering, tank shocking, warp spider teleportation).

For the last damned time, the rule does not say you are unharmed by your movement. It says you are unharmed by the tank shock. It is quite clear. Dangerous terrain, minefields, etc, it's all fair game because the tank shock doesn't do it, the subsequent movement does. It never says you 'move safely out of the way,' it says you 'move out of the way by the shortest route possible.' Period. What it means (reading comprehension powers activate) is that you suffer no other direct effects from the tank shock, that the movement is the only one.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/16 12:36:47


Post by: insaniak


I think that rule applies to every scenario not just falling back. It is a general rule, meant to apply to any of a half-dozen situations where you would be forced to move in XX direction (fleeing, scattering, tank shocking, warp spider teleportation).

Except that if it were a general rule, it would be in the Movement section, rather than in the Moralle section. While it doesn't explicitly state that it only applies to models Falling Back, it is in the section that deals with Regrouping (and failure to do so), which is referring to models who are Falling Back.

There is nothing in that entry that suggests that it applies to any other situation.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/16 13:59:08


Post by: Odd the Quiet


There is nothing in that entry that suggests that it applies to any other situation.

Or it can be argued that the only place table edge was mentioned was made purposely broad, as it is the only place it's mentioned.
The rules aren't written as fall back specific. You can't know the designer's intent.

If only they had left a note of some sort...



Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/16 14:30:04


Post by: insaniak


Or it can be argued that the only place table edge was mentioned was made purposely broad,

But it's not. It's in a section that deals with models who are Falling Back. That's not broad at all.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/17 13:50:14


Post by: Fenris-77


"But it's not. It's in a section that deals with models who are Falling Back. That's not broad at all."

**serious spelling edit, wow**


That's not accurate at all. This rule is in the general section "Morale" and the subheading "Regrouping". Its not particular to falling back at all, but rather to the morale rules as a set. And Odd is correct that any argument here that plays on the specific location in the book is sketchy at best.

A good counter example: the rules for psychic powers are in the Character section. But you just try and tell a Tyranid player that there aren't rules for non-characters with psychic powers, so his Zoeys go poof. No, book location here is an "argument from designers intent" which is now an officially named Dakka logical fallacy. Keep in mind here that no one really wants tanks pushed off the table, but RAW is what it is.

"argument from designers intent" hmmmm, maybe we should shorten it to AFDI. Yeah YMDC is all about acronyms.

Cheers



Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/17 15:39:04


Post by: Longshot


That's a damn good point Fenris. Arguing based on subheading/section when in many circumstances things are qualified is kind of beardy.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/17 20:10:57


Post by: insaniak


That's not accurate at all. This rule is in the general section "Morale" and the subheading "Regrouping". Its not particular to falling back at all, but rather to the morale rules as a set.

Really? Can you name a situation in which you would apply the rules for Regrouping to a model that is not Falling Back?




Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/19 04:31:29


Post by: Fenris-77


"Really? Can you name a situation in which you would apply the rules for Regrouping to a model that is not Falling Back?"

You missed the point. The rule is in the morale section and the morale section is the most logical place to put any information that has to do with Ld checks, forced movement, ect. You want the fact that the rule appears in this section to obviate it from applying anywhere else. Mostly I put this in because to say "its in part of the rules for falling back" is misleading and not entirely accurate when it is actually partof the morale rules.

This AFDI stuff isn't going anywhere anyway, its like fluff for a list, any fool can come up with a half baked story to support his beardyness. So no, it doesn't matter that the rule appears in the morale section, whats more important is that it's really the only rule that deals with moving of the board edge at all, except for Deep strike, and both of these rules support the idea that you are destroyed if you leave the table.

What you are left with is adjudicating the actual tank shock move and its results. The least bending of the Tank Shock rules have the tank pushed off table, that isn't even really in question. What has happened is that peopple have conflated the murkiness of the "what happens off table" part of the argument, with the relatively simple tank shock part.

There are two major parts to the argument and each one requires some interpretative work:

Position A, where the tank doesn't get pushed off the table. Here you are required to edit the tank shock rules to allow a move that is not the shortest. I almost never get on board with rules readings that require me to add text because its a little to AFDI for my taste.

Position B, where the tank does go off the table, requires us to answer a far more nebulous question - What actually happens at the board edge? Personally, I am more comforatble answering this question from precedent, than I am editing a rule just to avoid answering it. As well, all the precedent indicates that the tank becomes a casualty, as it has left the area in which it can contribute to the battle. It isn't even a silly ruling when you keep in mind that 40K is an abstractive game where actual ground scale means very little.

Anyway, I'm in favour of no editing and sensible interpretation of precedent. The tank gets pushed off table and counts as a casualty.

Cheers

*edit for some goofy grammar



Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/19 10:31:06


Post by: insaniak


You missed the point. The rule is in the morale section

...in the 'Regrouping' subsection.


You want the fact that the rule appears in this section to obviate it from applying anywhere else.

No, I want the fact that it is never referenced anywhere else, and that the Regrouping section does not tell you to apply it anywhere else, to mean that it does not apply anywhere else.


Position A, where the tank doesn't get pushed off the table. Here you are required to edit the tank shock rules to allow a move that is not the shortest. I almost never get on board with rules readings that require me to add text because its a little to AFDI for my taste.

No editing is required. if you assume that a model can not move off the board unless Falling Back or Deep Striking, then moving it off-table is not possible, in which case moving the vehicle sideways instead of off-table IS moving it the shortest distance possible.

No creation of rules required.



On the other hand going for option B, and moving it off table as you suggest, requires the assumption that the rules for models that are Falling Back count for any model touching the baord edge, and the creation of a rule that makes off-table vehicles count as casualties.




Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/19 11:15:22


Post by: Kilkrazy


What happens when there isn't a legal move available, for example when the shocked model is surrounded by enemy models?


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/19 11:18:58


Post by: insaniak


Already covered that earlier. There is always a legal move available, even if it means the unit winds up behind the enemy vehicle.

You determine the final position of the vehicle. If any models would be underneath the vehicle in that position, you move them aside by the shortest distance possible.

If the vehicle has a way to get to the unit, the unit has a place to go. You can never not have somewhere to move the unit to... it just isn't possible.


Tank shocking things off the board edge. @ 2006/03/19 14:46:09


Post by: Bookwrack


That could be an interesting twist on the old "Battle wagon with a threee foot gangplank", if it tank shocks your unit pinned between impassable terrain, and the shortest move to get out from under it is three feet back down the board...