HQ An important slot given the newly ‘cinematic’ nature of the game, but not really that game-defining unless some big shenanigans is made possible. Two models are likely not going to swing game when the order of the day is spamming survivable affordable firepower.
CSM: Arguably the high point of the book, with many special characters and decently fluffy. Pretty much all CC beasts, they don’t impact their armies that much other than making elites into troops selections/scoring here and there. The fact that said elites are usually nothing to sing about hampers the appeal. Still, quite a lot strong of AP2 melee swinging at Initiative here, even if Champion of Chaos makes them act dumb. The sorcerer is good but not great, and lacks Divination access, which is currently a big thing in determining which MeQ armies get to be competitive.
DA: Much improved over the last version, but then again that is a really low bar. Sammael is really great. Azrael is strong, but he doesn’t really sinergize that well with the choices he enables. And Ezekiel has become a really sweet package for his point cost. They get Divination access, meaning that twin-linked salvo 4 bolters will eat enemy infantry alive. And DE vehicles. Hell, everything. Besides, nice to be able to get Techmarines as upgrades to existing HQs (While the CSM version hogs a whole slot…). Not all HQ-support models are created equal, though for ages rules have tried to insist otherwise.
Advantage: CSM
Elites
The things that are like other things, but…better. Force multiplier. Special dudes. Important in this comparison since both books can get away with sneaking them to do troops stuff.
DA:DA terminators get more expensive than most other variants, but they also gain so much. Easily made scoring. Plenty of tools for guided/planned Deepstrike, decent transport options and amazing weaponry, while being the most resilient 2+ infantry this side of Paladins. Also: Split fire. You can also make Nurgle players cry by fielding T5 terminators with FNP (Banner), thought the cost is….salty. Dreads are not bad and can be made to specialize, but may well end up playing second fiddle to the termi onslaught. Veterans are also not quite up to snuff.
CSM: Ooo boy. The big question: Does Chaos even have a real elite section? So much of it is former troops that got worse and cheaper (or not, in the case of 1Ksom and Plagueboys). The Hellbrute mediocre, unable to focus on dakka and has no good delivery method to get up close. Terminators are cheap if left bare, have wonky upgrade costs and cant fit in their transport if taken in any sizable numbers, not to mention having lost their deepstrike guidance (and thus termicide tactics). Chosen also lost their one feature other than “they can take more guns that similar horned marines”. And Mutilators may actually be a prank unit.
Advantage: DA, by a nautical mile.
Fast Attack
Strong in both books. This was expected in the case of DA and a pleasant surprise for CSM, whose FA section in previous books was…tragic. It's like the goodness from the earlier CSM codex leaked into this slot in the new edition.
DA: Thoroughly amazing. Bike armies are a thing now, being able to get good cover saves, cheap special weapons and hit and run. Land Speeders can be spammed like no tomorrow for a good cost and also get respectable cover saves while tossing out high-quality fire. The Darkshroud is likely going to be the KFF Mekboy of 6th edition, only even more infuriating. The flyers are the low point, but they are not actively bad. It’s just outmatched by plenty of other in-codex options that kill infantry and light vehicles much better.
CSM: The Helldrake is very good. Only average against other flyers and the butcher cannon is barely an option given its crap BS, but the baleflamer is so good it makes the package work. It’s still a single weapon, mind, which may not be much compared to the ocean os dakka other flyers can pump out, and won’t help against hordes or 2+ armor, but as it is it’s one of the few things good against cover-boasting Ravenwing, Nob bikers and cover-sneaking Long Fangs. One is almost mandatory at this point. Bikers, like Havocs, are good mostly due to being so cheap, but they have nothing really exciting. No hit&run, scoring or unique weapons or rules, they are just…there for a good cost.
Warp Talons may have been the result of a bet with another dev regarding who could make the worst unit, and they won (the other unit was Mutilators). Specialists without basic tools to do their one thing (assault grenades), a useless, dangerous ability to sometimes cause Blind if they Deepstrike suicidally close, and priced up the wazoo. Raptor, like bikers, are just unobstrusively there. Spawn are a one-trick pony that is not going to last, and the DA codex does a lot to send them to the bin.
Advantage: DA, by a fair margin.
Troops:
The core of the game now, with the number of mission based on objectives having grown, as well as the potential number of objectives on the board. Killy troops that can survive are, plainly speaking, where it’s at. And if they can take killy dedicated transports as well…that’s what broken armies are made of.
DA: Tacticals may actually become their own wing in this book. Very cheap for what they bring (who’d imagine ATSKNF plus stubborn are both worth a single point!), semi-flexible weapon choices, and banners make them stack bonuses with other units. The Ld 8 basic sergeant is lame, but given ATSKNF it’s not a big issue, and even if it is, the upgrade to LD9 is dirt-cheap and still leaves point over comparing to the earlier cost. With some placing, you can get 3 units to benefit from a single salvo banner for insane dakka. Scouts are nice and solid, can get better cover from a Shroud (though they usually won’t be in the same position on the board).
CSM: Basic chaos marines are adequate. They lost part of their flexibility in that they no longer come with ccw, and now you also have to pay for their good Leadership, which you should since they don’t auto-rally if they run. If you pay to bring them up to their previous statline, they start getting inefficient, and the Marks are not quite powerful enough to multiply their force in any meaningful way. Khorne won’t make them scary in CC against anyone better than vanilla tacticals. Tzeentch might make the enemy wet himself laughing. Nurgle is somewhat good but expensive, and Slaanesh too focused on CC in a game about dakka. The same goes for banners.
Cultists are boring and cheap, which is a pity since they could have been so much fun. They could have been used for sacrifices by psykers and Apostles for re-rolls, or permit chaos marines to shoot at enemies in melee with a cultist mob because they don’t care about these dregs…but not. They are sub-guard guard, becoming zombies via Typhus is gimmicky but not actually good, and they will vanish under flamers, any large blasts, salvo bolters and the like, zombie or not.
Advantage: Dark Angels
Heavy Support
Actual tanks, artillery, stuff that goes beyond that lame S4 crap you see in other slots!
DA: Devastators actually become a strong choice here. You can get lascannon devs for a very good price, and with Divination primaries twin-linking them they can put most flyers in the ground right quick. The rest is a bit vanilla, but definitely functional. Land Raider variants are there and have plenty of fun passengers to ferry, and can get a 4+ save along with smoke with a Darkshroud nearby, which is nothing to sneeze at.
The plasma speeder is not quite worth the cost, though when combined with rad grenades it can allow for truly murderous ID onslaught against Paladins or any pesky T4 HQ in 2+ armor. The range is the main issue: at 36 inches it would be quite good. It's also fragile given its slot; the cover save helps, but the moment something ignores it or gets lucky, it is effectively shut down.
CSM: A crowded section. The Chaos Land Raider is at the same time bad and somewhat unavoidable, being the only assault vehicle in an army very focused on melee. No PotMS, lame carrying capacity, no weapons to help it break lines. Obliterators are still good but the Leadership hit and wonky forced weapon-switching are an issue. Havocs are cheap with autocannons, but bland. The Maulerfiend is so narrow in its focus it may belong on the elder codex: it’s good for busting Land Raider, Monoliths and maybe some fortifications and nothing else without risking more points than it is busting. Forgefiends are not great shots and are easily busted by a drop-pod-delivered melta or distant lascannon shot. Vindicators and Predators are decent but unchanged.
Advantage: A close contest here. DA actually gets more bang for their buck, but the fact is they have other better choices to spend most of their points on. Meanwhile, CSM depends almost entirely on Heavy Support for armor-cracking, plasma goodness and assault troop delivery. DA still win due to at least having reliable quality in their picks, even if it is upstaged by other slots.
Allies Matrix
*snerks*
DA wins.
Final Considerations:
The DA book does show that a lot of time was spent thinking of how wach variant list is going to play. What kind of force will be built around Sammael? Or Azrael? How will they score, take objectives, or deal with mech/horde? All of those questions are answered. A bit light on anti-air, but by no means defenseless.
The CSM book betrays none of that care. What army is Kharn geared towards? Berserkers in Rhinos that cannot assault until turn 3? Why is Lucius a duelist is his army is all based in tossing out low-strength dakka that ignores cover? Can Abaddon even join marked units? Does Ahriman make a Thousand-son based force any less mediocre on the board?
More than that, DA is where the flavor is. It gives you options to make fun, fluffy armies that are different from each other and work, the kind of armies DA playes want to play and attracted them to the chapter in the first place. It is geared to deliver: Deathwing is a thing? Then they get things that make them work and unique. Timed deep strike. Split fire. Shields and special weapons and no scatter on the bigshots. Oh wait, we’re doing bikes and fast stuff? Then they get Hit&run and good cover. They get special plasma dudes. They carry beacons to summon support right where they need it.
Meanwhile, an Iron Warrior fan better be happy with some gargoyle dreads ad a plain vindicator or expensive defiler, all shoved in the same three slots as ever. Now that’s a mighty heavy armored force blanketing the horizon with cruel steel! Alpha legion has to pray for an Infiltrate warlord trait or use such famous Alpha legionnaires like Huron or Ahriman. Night Lords may as well be absent. Even when they try to add flavor, it seems to only detract from the fun: forced challenges (because my expensive, wily Tzeentch sorcerer surely rose to power charging into any mook with a Power Fist, not using his sorcerous influence in the background to steer fate itself), making Obliterators and Mutilators constantly switch weapons, Daemonic possessed vehicles and the Scroll of Magnus be actively more harmful than helpful unless you have such great luck with the dice you may as well be using d4s on all rolls and you’d still win.
Yeah, it’s an unfair comparison. It’s easier to think up 3-4 army variants (Deathwing, Razenwing, Greenwing and Doublewing) than 9. But the fact that one book pulled it off and the other did not is still just that: a fact.
By pointing out the Black Knight and Vengeance synergy (how in the nine hells did I miss that?) you have actually sold me on the sodding thing. Lobbing that pie-plate on a unit with -1T is a great little trick and it can bring it in to position much sooner than a Vindicator. Probably still just going to magnetize a Dark Shroud (just in case I still dislike it), but that little bit of synergy makes it look a lot better. Hell, I was going to be running Black Knights anyways, so it isn't like things weren't going to get smacked with Rad grenades.
I think the Helldrake single handedly wins the Fast Attack section for Chaos by a fair margin. 20 point bikers I feel are almost on par with RW bikes due to versatility via marking.
Obliterators do the same in the Heavy Support. Havocs can tote specials and are a point cheaper; ATSKNF will rarely come into play for a 5 man squad.
Havoc launcher armed rhinos are better than razorbacks via the laters hefty price hike.
I feel overall the DA is probably a better book but its awfully close. DA still dont have anything like Plague Marines and Chaos still has the top three ranged weapons of both books in the form of the Baelfire, Blastmaster and Burning Brand.
Not surprising at all. The lack of creativity in the CSM codex was apparent from page 1. the cover was awesome, but the inside was a letdown. I can think of a dozen things that would make the codex better, but as it is it looks like a rush job on par with Dragon Age 2. I do like the codex, but it does not lend itself to many styles of play.
I feel overall the DA is probably a better book but its awfully close. DA still dont have anything like Plague Marines and Chaos still has the top three ranged weapons of both books in the form of the Baelfire, Blastmaster and Burning Brand.
And those things pretty much made up the whole CSM codex... Every CSM player brings Nurgle Stuff (Lords, PMs, Bikers/Spawns/Oblits), Baledrakes and AC Havocs. Meanwhile, the DA player brings whatever he wants, because even the useless selections (the flyers, the LS Vengeance) are cool.
Otherwise, the OP has so much truth in his post that it is painful :(.
lazarian wrote: I think the Helldrake single handedly wins the Fast Attack section for Chaos by a fair margin. 20 point bikers I feel are almost on par with RW bikes due to versatility via marking.
Obliterators do the same in the Heavy Support. Havocs can tote specials and are a point cheaper; ATSKNF will rarely come into play for a 5 man squad.
Chaos bikes can never be scoring, have no beacons and are limited in number compared to RW. Start stacking marks and icons and soon they lose their only real advantage...cheap cost.
And ATSKNF is actually more important for small units. It keeps them on the board longer. My havocs can run right off after losing two guys, depriving me of 3 surviving wepons. Loyalists will just have to snap fire for a turn as they rally and then will be back shooting the guns I paid for an attracting fire for more turns until the very last guy is killed.
Sephyr wrote: Loyalists will just have to snap fire for a turn as they rally and then will be back shooting the guns I paid for an attracting fire for more turns until the very last guy is killed.
They don't even have to Snap Fire. Models with ATSKNF can act normally in the turn they rally. They can even fire Heavy weapons normally if they don't move in the Movement Phase.
I meant that they would likely have to move to get back in position and would have to snapfire heavy weapons, but you are right. I should have clarified!
I'll go ahead and post my thoughts on this, as well. I've had a little time now to read through, and do some evaluation.
HQ DA have some great force multiplier HQS, like Azreal and Sammael, but a lot of them seem to fall flat on their face, like Asmodai. I really enjoyed the new armory as well. It's really hard to beat the Chaos HQs' though. Our Sorcerer is superior to a DA libby, and while a Chaos lord is at a slight disadvantage when it comes to point per point vs a Company master base (As the Company master gets inner circle) The ability to take marks, sways things in the Chaos Lords favor. Granted, most of the Mark costs don't make a lot of sense, but you can customize your lord much better than a company master. Our special characters, while some of them aren't very good, can preform their roles as force multipliers, quite well. I like the Command squads for DA, but Point per Point, I think Deathwing actually turns out to be a better deal, and they score. You can get more Black Knights this way though.
I have to give HQ to Chaos.
Elites: The Chaos Elites are pretty terrible for the most part. Any cult choices, will be taken as troops if you want them. Chosen are actually pretty decent. Helbrutes are Ok. Terminators are cheap, and you can still do Termicide. The rest of the choices are pretty much garbage. I don't think you will be seeing much from the DA elites either though, for the same reason as chaos. If you want Deathwing, you'll be taking them as troops. Deathwing knights are also an Ok choice, I'd take them over Mutilators for sure. Overall, I think this slot is pretty meh in both books.
Troops. At first glance, I wanted to just give this to DA, but upon further though, I don't think it's quite that simple. Deathwing, Ravenwing, and Greenwing are all pretty good choices. The ability to take a Heavy weapon at 5, is really great for Greenwing. Chaos really isn't that much of a slouch either though. Plaguemarines are a pretty amazing choice. With The New FAQ might see some more Noise Marines, as they can take a Second blastmaster at 10 now. Chaos Space Marines, are cheap, and not too terrible. Cultists are good at what they do, being a backfield Objective holder. Overall, I'm still going to give this slot to DA, but It's not near as clear cut as I thought it was orginally.
Fast Attack: This slot seems to have the best choices from both books. I'm not really going to count Ravenwing, as a choice, since if you want it, it will be a Troops Choice. Black Knights are flat out amazing, and the Dark Shroud is a fantastic force multiplier. Their Flyers are grossly overcosted, and I don't think you will be seeing them. Chaos has the Heldrake however, which is just flat out amazing with a Baleflamer. Chaos Bikers are also very good. Someone did the math on the Surviability with Either Nurgle Bikers, or Slaaneshi Bikers with IoE. Even it jacks the points up some, they are very very good. Overall, I'm going to have to give this slot to Chaos. The Heldrake is probably the best unit in the new Dex, and while Black Knights and the Darkshroud are awesome, I still think Heldrakes edge them out. It's very close though.
Heavy Suppot: Honestly, I think Chaos hands down beats DA here. DA have cheap Devs, and Cheap Whirlwinds. That's really all they have going for them in this slot. Everything else is standard Space Marine fare except The Land speeder Vengeance which is really bad. Chaos have Oblits, which with MoN and VOTLW are very very good, and very durable. They also have cheap Havocs. Forgefiends I personally think are a lot better than most people give them credit for. I've been using them, and they don't really die near as quick as people seem to think. They provide wonderful Anti-tank and can preform Anti-infantry as well. We may start seeing more Ecto Fiends if Deathwing becomes really popular.
Overall, balance wise, I think they're both very close with time being the one to tell if DA end up edging out CSM. I still am disappointed in the Variety in the CSM book, and I do think the DA book is much better written.
I think people are looking at models and not at an entire list.
While black knights are powerful, they cost as much as a loyalist termie (a little more actually). Chaos can take two bikers for every one of theirs.
Our regular bikers have +1 attack and +1 T (nurgle) over a regular DA bike...and is one point cheaper. They get scout moves and homers, which are nice but not as good as ours imo.
For termies, you could give all of ours fnp and combi weapons and still be cheaper (will end up at 39ppm, allowing for some weapons), although they still have decent access to TH/SS (although more expensive then all but wolves). The robed versions seem really bad with no shooting and 1W...and maces. Ectofiends can look forward to scoring all their pts back in one salvo, as can vindicators.
Their pyskers cost more then ours to upgrade and max out at 2 levels. Granted div is the best lore, however biomancy and telepathy are tied for the #2 lores.
I'd say DA have an advantage in special characters (because their regular hq are pretty bad outside of pyskers), slight edge in elites, and a solid win in troops. Chaos have a solid edge in FA, much better generic hq, and a better HS slot.
I do feel DA plays better against chaos then chaos does against DA. But against most other enemies, chaos has a slight edge.
I have played two games against DA at 2k points and won both. I did get lucky one game and sniped the dakka pole, and the other game the guy wiped one 35 man cultist squad. The only scary thing was the LC spam from the devs, but i'm pretty tank heavy for the current metA
lazarian wrote: I think the Helldrake single handedly wins the Fast Attack section for Chaos by a fair margin. 20 point bikers I feel are almost on par with RW bikes due to versatility via marking.
Obliterators do the same in the Heavy Support. Havocs can tote specials and are a point cheaper; ATSKNF will rarely come into play for a 5 man squad.
Chaos bikes can never be scoring, have no beacons and are limited in number compared to RW. Start stacking marks and icons and soon they lose their only real advantage...cheap cost.
And ATSKNF is actually more important for small units. It keeps them on the board longer. My havocs can run right off after losing two guys, depriving me of 3 surviving wepons. Loyalists will just have to snap fire for a turn as they rally and then will be back shooting the guns I paid for an attracting fire for more turns until the very last guy is killed.
I find that neither are doing much running with a higher LD, furthermore how many times is the enemy going to be content with one or two casualties in a HS slot? I see the benefit of ATSKNF however I feel being able to spam 4 specials out of a rhino to be as useful, if not moreso.
As to the issue of variety, DA does win this, not an issue. However variety does not equal power. Plague marines, noise marines, cultists and horde basic marines are all viable as troops. Furthermore due to unlocking Chaos has access to 3 other options as troops, more than DA. While yes Ravenwing/Deathwing/Greenwing are all good, Chaos at least gets Nurgle, Slaanesh and Vanilla as army builds.
Cult Marines should be considered as being Troops, since that's what most CSM players would use them as.
Plague Marines are amazing troops. Plague Knives, Blight Grenades, and FNP? Thousand Sons are good support, too. AP3 bolters will wreck most DA armies, excluding Deathwing. Noise Marines got better with the latest FAQ, seeing as they can now take a basscannon and not have to be 10 in a squad. Berzerkers? Eh, I'll give that one up.
DA being able to take Flakk missiles with Tac squads is awesome, though. Can't argue against that.
I did not put Cult marines, or Ravenwing Bikes, or Deathwing termis as troops because it wouls make for a giant, bloated section going all over the place, not fun to read.
Plague marines are good yes, but expensive and not that killy. Thousand Sons are gimped by being a shooty unit without ovewartch, making themeasy to dispose of, brutally expensive and carrying a psyker that can't be upgraded into usefulness and with arguably the worst power selection in the game.
And the piece was written and psoted just before the new FAQs hit and gave Noise Marines a second wind. Yay for my timing!
Maybe if I write another one they can make zerkers fleet....
For what they get, Plague Marines aren't really that expensive. Fearless, FNP, Blight Grenades, Plague Knife, etc. Plus, you can take two special weapons in a basic sized squad. Thousand Sons, yeah. They're really expensive, but they have AP3 bolters and a 4+ invuln save.
Quick, start writing and they might make Warp Talons not terrible!
Maybe if I write another one they can make zerkers fleet....
DO IT! But don't talk about Fleet, just give back the old Mark Of Khorne (the flat +1 Attack) - it would instantly fix the whole Khorne range and could give even Warp Talons a break.
xSPYXEx wrote: For what they get, Plague Marines aren't really that expensive. Fearless, FNP, Blight Grenades, Plague Knife, etc. Plus, you can take two special weapons in a basic sized squad. Thousand Sons, yeah. They're really expensive, but they have AP3 bolters and a 4+ invuln save.
A lot is made of that AP3, much as on Stormtroopers. One will notice neither unit typically makes much of a showing on tables. The problem is that, the AP3 is grossly over-valued, against lighter infantry it is effectively meaningless, and against MEQ infantry they're so expensive that the amount they're outnumbered by will often mean they can never engage effectively and the AP3 is nicely avoided by diving into CC.
After pouring through both codexes I am quite put off at how weak the CSM codex feels compared to the DA codex and it makes me wonder if they are tying to make the CSM look bad.
Troops. At first glance, I wanted to just give this to DA, but upon further though, I don't think it's quite that simple. Deathwing, Ravenwing, and Greenwing are all pretty good choices. The ability to take a Heavy weapon at 5, is really great for Greenwing. Chaos really isn't that much of a slouch either though. Plaguemarines are a pretty amazing choice. With The New FAQ might see some more Noise Marines, as they can take a Second blastmaster at 10 now. Chaos Space Marines, are cheap, and not too terrible. Cultists are good at what they do, being a backfield Objective holder. Overall, I'm still going to give this slot to DA, but It's not near as clear cut as I thought it was orginally.
The real difference here is not so much in the selections themselves but rather in the rules by which they are forced to play. DA troops have ZERO rules that penalize or hold them back. Chaos on the other hand has the "Champions of Chaos" nonsense. Meaning that Chaos has to always think about either tooling up their aspiring champ to a silly degree or treat them like the completely throw away character they are and get boned in cc. I haven't seen any such handicaps in the DA codex and while CoChaos applies to the entire codex, it hits the Troops section particularly hard. That's why I would say that the TROOPS slot is a clear-cut win for the DA.
This has been a great read by the way. Thanks all for the calm/balanced discussion!
Troops. At first glance, I wanted to just give this to DA, but upon further though, I don't think it's quite that simple. Deathwing, Ravenwing, and Greenwing are all pretty good choices. The ability to take a Heavy weapon at 5, is really great for Greenwing. Chaos really isn't that much of a slouch either though. Plaguemarines are a pretty amazing choice. With The New FAQ might see some more Noise Marines, as they can take a Second blastmaster at 10 now. Chaos Space Marines, are cheap, and not too terrible. Cultists are good at what they do, being a backfield Objective holder. Overall, I'm still going to give this slot to DA, but It's not near as clear cut as I thought it was orginally.
The real difference here is not so much in the selections themselves but rather in the rules by which they are forced to play. DA troops have ZERO rules that penalize or hold them back. Chaos on the other hand has the "Champions of Chaos" nonsense.
Grim Resolve? Ok, it's not as bad as Champion of Chaos.
But really, Stubborn is easily the worst of all different "Chapter tactics".
The CSM may be boring but its quality per point for its good units are ubsurd. 170pts for a 9-13 str6 ap2 attacks on the charge at int.5? WTF!? 170 for a flying str7ap3 vector striker with a str6ap3 torrent flame... 170pts... again WTF?! A chaos player using the books strengths has a lot of brutal units for the points invested. But again boring. Unless you like to use the same thing over and over and over.
Troops. At first glance, I wanted to just give this to DA, but upon further though, I don't think it's quite that simple. Deathwing, Ravenwing, and Greenwing are all pretty good choices. The ability to take a Heavy weapon at 5, is really great for Greenwing. Chaos really isn't that much of a slouch either though. Plaguemarines are a pretty amazing choice. With The New FAQ might see some more Noise Marines, as they can take a Second blastmaster at 10 now. Chaos Space Marines, are cheap, and not too terrible. Cultists are good at what they do, being a backfield Objective holder. Overall, I'm still going to give this slot to DA, but It's not near as clear cut as I thought it was orginally.
The real difference here is not so much in the selections themselves but rather in the rules by which they are forced to play. DA troops have ZERO rules that penalize or hold them back. Chaos on the other hand has the "Champions of Chaos" nonsense.
Grim Resolve? Ok, it's not as bad as Champion of Chaos.
But really, Stubborn is easily the worst of all different "Chapter tactics".
Another thing to keep in mind, is while Champion of Chaos is pretty bad, DA have to upgrade to get a Veteran SGT, while Chaos squads come with them standard.
EDIT: Heldrakes also just got a pretty big boost. Vector Strikes now Ignore cover, and it's weapon is turret mounted, and measured from the base.
Another thing to keep in mind, is while Champion of Chaos is pretty bad, DA have to upgrade to get a Veteran SGT, while Chaos squads come with them standard.
That free "upgrade" is a complete waste though. Since I know that I will HAVE to use him in a challenge should cc occur, and since I know that he's more than likely going to get killed in said cc, I would rather he be a regular scrub. Then he can be less expensive and not so much of a waste.
EDIT: Heldrakes also just got a pretty big boost. Vector Strikes now Ignore cover, and it's weapon is turret mounted, and measured from the base.
No argument there. lol Heldrakes were already pretty great before. Now they are just that much better!
The more I go through both books the more I am beginning to think that the DA codex is going to end up as a top tier book when the dust settles. People talk about internal balance all the time and many people talk about the Chaos dex as being "internally balanced", but I guess I just have a different definition of "internal balance". Having many very similar units is NOT internal balance. Having multiple redundant units is not internal balance. Having fully two thirds of your entries in HQ and Elites is not internal balance. Especially not when most of those elites choices aren't so great. This all sums up the Chaos codex.
The DA codex has none of these issues. Internal balance means having units that support each other (bikers with homing beacons for your termies, etc). Good internal balance means I can build almost any list and not worry about getting totally tabeled. Having selections that support and compliment each other and NOT having needless redundancy are all parts of solid internal balance. The DA codex has all of this and more and I think it's going to be even more powerful than people think!
Tycho wrote: The DA codex has none of these issues. Internal balance means having units that support each other (bikers with homing beacons for your termies, etc). Good internal balance means I can build almost any list and not worry about getting totally tabeled. Having selections that support and compliment each other and NOT having needless redundancy are all parts of solid internal balance. The DA codex has all of this and more and I think it's going to be even more powerful than people think!
That's a really good point. Almost nothing in the Chaos dex supports deepstriking (Dimensional key, but it's almost useless anyway). If Icons let you deepstrike nearby, then I would take them all day every day, but they don't so meh. And Chaos needs deep strike support or drop pods since it doesn't really have anything that would help get close and into combat soon, which is where Traitor Marines really shine. Metal Bawkzes can be good, but it's not the same as when I played Loyalists and had all my Sergeants take homing beacons so that my TermiLib and friends could drop in just about anywhere on the board reliably. I kind of miss that, really...
But about the internal balance and the Elite slot, I think it's the other way around. The Elite slot isn't overfilled, it's almost empty. If you're going to take cult marines, you probably will have a mark to turn them into troops. Only the first double spread are true elite choices. Termies, possessed, Chosen, and Mutilators. Nothing really awesome.
The more I go through both books the more I am beginning to think that the DA codex is going to end up as a top tier book when the dust settles. People talk about internal balance all the time and many people talk about the Chaos dex as being "internally balanced", but I guess I just have a different definition of "internal balance". Having many very similar units is NOT internal balance. Having multiple redundant units is not internal balance. Having fully two thirds of your entries in HQ and Elites is not internal balance. Especially not when most of those elites choices aren't so great. This all sums up the Chaos codex.
The DA codex has none of these issues. Internal balance means having units that support each other (bikers with homing beacons for your termies, etc). Good internal balance means I can build almost any list and not worry about getting totally tabeled. Having selections that support and compliment each other and NOT having needless redundancy are all parts of solid internal balance. The DA codex has all of this and more and I think it's going to be even more powerful than people think!
I've been thinking this as well. At first I felt DA may be a "top of the mid-tier" army, but reading around at what people are doing and what you can pull off, I see it as an actual contender. It definitely has the "Great shooting army that you still don't want to assault" feel from Space Wolves, it has tons of twin-linked AP2 guns to deal with 2+ armor, tons of tough scoring options, good psychic powers, cost-effective HQs...really, all it needs is for someone to come up with a way to deal with mass enemy flyers and it'll be right there at the top.
Reading this thread I realised what is my problem with the csm codex as I lost enthusiasm for my csm project at some point after reading it. It's not the rules, it's the names and models. I mean Hellbrute, that sounds stupid, what's wrong with Chaos Dreadnought? Having a chance to make a big mad Juggernaut they made those nicely rounded fiends which look like something from Warmachine and the Helldrake is both named and looking silly, not chaotic at all. Also the codex is too nice, there's not enough insanity, corruption and blood. Bit of craziness is not going to cut it for csm book, they've spoiled the csm mood for me.
Good to see that there's still a chance for balanced codieces policy like in fantasy though.
As a chaos Player i really do not want to shoot for a cheesy list that is the only list that will keep you in league with other players, if a bunch of actual die-hard Chaos players wrote at least some of the options you could take as a chaos army, it would make a significant difference. My main concern in the chaos space marine codex is that it has no flavor. There are 9 legions that specialize in something and even those who have been around for ages don't get any fun options for their army? let's say a night lords army had all fast attack as troops, what a difference maker (that would be seriously absurd, but really that's pretty much what goes on in the fluff). Heck iron warriors could take all heavy support 10 points less if fielding a warpsmith, those points add up! Maybe for the world eaters you can consolidate into another assault after you made one already, wow! I am not going to go through all the legions but rules with more flavor would certainly draw more players into playing csm, and keep the existing players playing! I would have bunches of fun playing chaos because of the different play styles you cold choose from! Welp no we are stuck with only one flyer that is over used and 1 over priced assualt vehicle.
A couple of the things i do admire in the codex include the boon table, the artwork, the lore, and did i say the artwork? The vanilla hq units have lots of options though , and now with cultists in the mix, "oh yeah im bring CSM" i would love to be "That Guy" who brings droves of cultists and a cheap lord .
So in summary, my main problem with the CSM codex is lack of options and lack of team effiency.
wolfmerc wrote: As a chaos Player i really do not want to shoot for a cheesy list that is the only list that will keep you in league with other players, if a bunch of actual die-hard Chaos players wrote at least some of the options you could take as a chaos army, it would make a significant difference. My main concern in the chaos space marine codex is that it has no flavor. There are 9 legions that specialize in something and even those who have been around for ages don't get any fun options for their army? let's say a night lords army had all fast attack as troops, what a difference maker (that would be seriously absurd, but really that's pretty much what goes on in the fluff). Heck iron warriors could take all heavy support 10 points less if fielding a warpsmith, those points add up! Maybe for the world eaters you can consolidate into another assault after you made one already, wow! I am not going to go through all the legions but rules with more flavor would certainly draw more players into playing csm, and keep the existing players playing! I would have bunches of fun playing chaos because of the different play styles you cold choose from! Welp no we are stuck with only one flyer that is over used and 1 over priced assualt vehicle.
A couple of the things i do admire in the codex include the boon table, the artwork, the lore, and did i say the artwork? The vanilla hq units have lots of options though , and now with cultists in the mix, "oh yeah im bring CSM" i would love to be "That Guy" who brings droves of cultists and a cheap lord .
So in summary, my main problem with the CSM codex is lack of options and lack of team effiency.
1. Fast Attack as Troops would make CSM broken and Cheesy by one/twoish words: HELDRAKE SPAM! I guess airspam isn't restricted to Necrons anymore. That would be the only reason someone would take a Night Lords HQ choice because the Warp Talons are way too expensive for what they do, and 'one des not simply take one Heldrake'. Bikes are decent, but in bikes vs airspam, Airspam 1 bikes 0.
2.Would make KB armies cheesy, especially against the tight formation Nid armies with floods of Gaunts. This would also increase the likelihood of multiple Daemon Princes showing up late in the game from the new boon factories, when the big guns usually tire. Hundreds, if not thousands of points could be wiped off the map in a series of 2-4 consecutive assaults in one assault phase by 2 KB squads. There is a reason they removed that rule in editions past.
3. Your flyer is good for a reason, you need some AA. When facing more diverse armies, they will have flyers, and they will roll over you if you don't have a decent AA squad or a flyer. Also F, R, & S AV 14 w/ Assault vehicle rule will never be cheap, and the basic weapons are decent not to mention special spikey upgrades just for CSM players to make their LR really good.
Your not Getting the point, these are merely just food for thought. You are right that what i suggested is overpowered But what i suggest for rules isn't up for debate. i am merely stating that adding options could provide a greater amount of fun, and i provided examples to give an idea what i was talking about. apparently i didn't stress my main point enough. < _ >
Also F, R, & S AV 14 w/ Assault vehicle rule will never be cheap, and the basic weapons are decent not to mention special spikey upgrades just for CSM players to make their LR really good.
A nice, cheap assault vehicle would've done then, and those special spikey upgrades aren't honestly worth it at all, most of them are either crap or overpriced. You want a really good LR? You want a crusader, not the Godhammer variant, especially not one that can't even split fire one of its lascannons.
Good to see that there's still a chance for balanced codieces policy like in fantasy though.
In all honesty, I am now convinced (after having gone through both 'dexes many times and having seen them on the table top) that the DA codex is actually going to prove to be significantly, head and shoulders, nearly out of this world better than the Chaos codex. I don't think the DA codex has anything that screams OP like Grey Knights or anything like that, but I think it is so internally well balanced (and I don't care what anyone says, the Chaos codex is NOT internally balanced) and efficient that it's going to be a real face ripper when the dust settles.
Good to see that there's still a chance for balanced codieces policy like in fantasy though.
In all honesty, I am now convinced (after having gone through both 'dexes many times and having seen them on the table top) that the DA codex is actually going to prove to be significantly, head and shoulders, nearly out of this world better than the Chaos codex. I don't think the DA codex has anything that screams OP like Grey Knights or anything like that, but I think it is so internally well balanced (and I don't care what anyone says, the Chaos codex is NOT internally balanced) and efficient that it's going to be a real face ripper when the dust settles.
I don't see anything that puts the DA codex that significantly above the Chaos codex in a competitive setting. I see much better internal balance in the DA codex, but the overall power between the two is very close.
The DA codex is defiantly not on GK/SW/IG/Necron levels, which still puts it solidly middle of the pack, with Chaos.
We'll just have to see. Hopefully I'll get to play some DAs with my Chaos, soon, and give a further evaluation after a few games.
As a chaos Player i really do not want to shoot for a cheesy list that is the only list that will keep you in league with other players, if a bunch of actual die-hard Chaos players wrote at least some of the options you could take as a chaos army, it would make a significant difference. My main concern in the chaos space marine codex is that it has no flavor. There are 9 legions that specialize in something and even those who have been around for ages don't get any fun options for their army? let's say a night lords army had all fast attack as troops, what a difference maker (that would be seriously absurd, but really that's pretty much what goes on in the fluff). Heck iron warriors could take all heavy support 10 points less if fielding a warpsmith, those points add up! Maybe for the world eaters you can consolidate into another assault after you made one already, wow! I am not going to go through all the legions but rules with more flavor would certainly draw more players into playing csm, and keep the existing players playing! I would have bunches of fun playing chaos because of the different play styles you cold choose from! Welp no we are stuck with only one flyer that is over used and 1 over priced assualt vehicle.
A couple of the things i do admire in the codex include the boon table, the artwork, the lore, and did i say the artwork? The vanilla hq units have lots of options though , and now with cultists in the mix, "oh yeah im bring CSM" i would love to be "That Guy" who brings droves of cultists and a cheap lord .
So in summary, my main problem with the CSM codex is lack of options and lack of team effiency.
For Night Lords, instead of all Fast Attack units it could be "A Chaos Lord with a Jump Pack makes all Raptors and Warp Talons into Troop choices."
Iron Warriors could have something like "May take a Warpsmith for each vehicle you have, and they don't count for your HQ allowance after the first."
Instead of consolidating into another combat, Berzerkers could be able to assault out of any vehicle.
Just some ideas.
Edit: Derp, was going to say something else.
Honestly, I haven't played all that many matches against the new Dark Angels. They seem pretty good, but it's not enough for me to stop and say "wow, DA are really powerful now, I feel like I should stop playing Chaos because our book isn't as good."
The DA codex is defiantly not on GK/SW/IG/Necron levels, which still puts it solidly middle of the pack, with Chaos.
I should have clarified better. I agree that it's not got 'Cron flying circus levels of power. But the synergy of the different units allows a cohesiveness in DA lists that does not exist ANYWHERE in the Chaos codex. It's going to allow the better players to stomp people pretty hard but with much less effort than it would take to do the same thing with the Chaos codex. I don't know that the DAs are ever going to be in that God-tier of 'Crons and GK, but this is (IMO), when the 6th ed dust settles, going to be one of the more competitive books. The Chaos codex by comparison, was mediocre at best when released and has already seen some of its inherent advantages (cheap MEQ for example) completely eroded by the DA codex. I just think that while that trend will continue for Chaos, the DA codex has enough internal flexibility to stay tough for some time to come.
EDIT:
I should add that I'm saying this having both seen and played in multiple games with both. The DA just have enough flexibility to tweak a list and have it come out different. Chaos tends to have to build one trick pony lists to get any cohesiveness at all and then when that one trick has been figured out you're not likely to have much fun until you build a new list. Which for Chaos means a COMPLETELY NEW AND DIFFERENT LIST. You can't just swap a unit here and some upgrades there like the DA can and still be competitive. To me it just feels like Chaos was written with beer and pretzels in mind and DA was written with long-term viability and competitiveness in mind.
Tycho wrote: To me it just feels like Chaos was written with beer and pretzels in mind and DA was written with long-term viability and competitiveness in mind.
Well, isn't that what [the appeal for] Chaos is? Just say screw it and have fun with your life? Forget tactics, scream BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! and charge headlong into a group of enemies?
Well, isn't that what [the appeal for] Chaos is? Just say screw it and have fun with your life? Forget tactics, scream BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! and charge headlong into a group of enemies?
When that's ALL you can do it gets old quick. Even in "for fun" pickup games. My previous posts were approaching it more from a competitive mind set but if you want to approach it from a fun mind set we can do that too.
So I want to play Khorne. nurgle I want Berzerkers rolling forward in ... oh wait. nurgle I only have ONE assault vehicle and it's stupid expensive. nurgle
K, never mind.nurgle I'll go 1ksons. Ah! REALLY expensive and no overwatch!?
NURGLE
Etc etc
Even in fun games (which is what I tend to play more often than anything else), Chaos is already getting stale for me. It lacks the flavor it should have easily had and it has NONE of the flexibility and synergy it needed. So to summarise:
The DA codex is defiantly not on GK/SW/IG/Necron levels, which still puts it solidly middle of the pack, with Chaos.
I should have clarified better. I agree that it's not got 'Cron flying circus levels of power. But the synergy of the different units allows a cohesiveness in DA lists that does not exist ANYWHERE in the Chaos codex. It's going to allow the better players to stomp people pretty hard but with much less effort than it would take to do the same thing with the Chaos codex. I don't know that the DAs are ever going to be in that God-tier of 'Crons and GK, but this is (IMO), when the 6th ed dust settles, going to be one of the more competitive books. The Chaos codex by comparison, was mediocre at best when released and has already seen some of its inherent advantages (cheap MEQ for example) completely eroded by the DA codex. I just think that while that trend will continue for Chaos, the DA codex has enough internal flexibility to stay tough for some time to come.
EDIT:
I should add that I'm saying this having both seen and played in multiple games with both. The DA just have enough flexibility to tweak a list and have it come out different. Chaos tends to have to build one trick pony lists to get any cohesiveness at all and then when that one trick has been figured out you're not likely to have much fun until you build a new list. Which for Chaos means a COMPLETELY NEW AND DIFFERENT LIST. You can't just swap a unit here and some upgrades there like the DA can and still be competitive. To me it just feels like Chaos was written with beer and pretzels in mind and DA was written with long-term viability and competitiveness in mind.
While I agree there may not be that much flexibility in competitive Chaos lists, that does not mean the codex itself, isn't competitive. I agree, it will come down to just a few Builds (Nurgle comes to mind the most) I feel these builds do have what it takes to rank highly in tournaments.
It will take time for people to figure out the Ins and outs of the DA codex, but as I said, I don't think there is a huge separation in power between the two. DA does have more options that are competitive than Chaos, but all of the Chaos choices that are good, are very solidly good.
Time on the tabletop will be the biggest factor, after all, people thought the Necron codex was Tyranid level when it came out in 5th. Time proved that one wrong quite quickly.
So, do I think the DA codex was better written than the Chaos Codex? Yes, by a long shot.
Do I think there are more competitive options in the DA codex? Yes, as well.
Overall, do I think the DA codex is overall more competitive than the Chaos Codex? In a sense. It has more options, but as I said earlier, all the strong options in the Chaos Codex are really good. This means there won't be much variation in top chaos builds, but these builds will hang with DA easily, IMO.
Time on the tabletop will be the biggest factor, after all, people thought the Necron codex was Tyranid level when it came out in 5th. Time proved that one wrong quite quickly.
While you and I are drawing different conclusions on where the book is going, I think we are coming from the same place and actually are generally on the same page. Time will definitely tell! Here's hoping I'm wrong and the Chaos book stays mid-tier! lol
EDIT:
This means there won't be much variation in top chaos builds, but these builds will hang with DA easily,
I do have to take small issue with this though. The problem as I see it is that the Chaos builds will hang with the DA ONCE. Then you've blown your proverbial wad as the Chaos player while DA still have plenty more to bring. There's just very little surprise or flexibility with Chaos right now.
So, do I think the DA codex was better written than the Chaos Codex? Yes, by a long shot.
Do I think there are more competitive options in the DA codex? Yes, as well.
Overall, do I think the DA codex is overall more competitive than the Chaos Codex? In a sense. It has more options, but as I said earlier, all the strong options in the Chaos Codex are really good. This means there won't be much variation in top chaos builds, but these builds will hang with DA easily, IMO.
I think the lack of variety is the thing that will kick the CSM codex's competitiveness well below the DA's. If you go to a toruney, and you think about beating CSM, then you will know what you will see in the CSM army so you can prepare your army accordingly. Against a DA? You can encounter at least four compeltely different types of armies! You can prepare for Deathwing and get a Ravenwing. And what works against Deathwing is mostly 'meh' against Ravenwing. And if you think about it, this is a big thing.
So, do I think the DA codex was better written than the Chaos Codex? Yes, by a long shot.
Do I think there are more competitive options in the DA codex? Yes, as well.
Overall, do I think the DA codex is overall more competitive than the Chaos Codex? In a sense. It has more options, but as I said earlier, all the strong options in the Chaos Codex are really good. This means there won't be much variation in top chaos builds, but these builds will hang with DA easily, IMO.
I think the lack of variety is the thing that will kick the CSM codex's competitiveness well below the DA's. If you go to a toruney, and you think about beating CSM, then you will know what you will see in the CSM army so you can prepare your army accordingly. Against a DA? You can encounter at least four compeltely different types of armies! You can prepare for Deathwing and get a Ravenwing. And what works against Deathwing is mostly 'meh' against Ravenwing. And if you think about it, this is a big thing.
They can even take a base greenwing and an ironwing, chaos is pretty much nurgle with heldrakes or bust.
So, do I think the DA codex was better written than the Chaos Codex? Yes, by a long shot.
Do I think there are more competitive options in the DA codex? Yes, as well.
Overall, do I think the DA codex is overall more competitive than the Chaos Codex? In a sense. It has more options, but as I said earlier, all the strong options in the Chaos Codex are really good. This means there won't be much variation in top chaos builds, but these builds will hang with DA easily, IMO.
I think the lack of variety is the thing that will kick the CSM codex's competitiveness well below the DA's. If you go to a toruney, and you think about beating CSM, then you will know what you will see in the CSM army so you can prepare your army accordingly. Against a DA? You can encounter at least four compeltely different types of armies! You can prepare for Deathwing and get a Ravenwing. And what works against Deathwing is mostly 'meh' against Ravenwing. And if you think about it, this is a big thing.
You have an idea of what you will see in every army, and most armies build for this. My TAC are built to handle every type of army, to the best of it's ability, which is my point. Everyone Tailors their TAC to be able to handle, the top competative lists
As for your point about "Knowing what to expect" With the 4th Edition Chaos Codex, you always knew that they were going to be Double Lash, and 9 Oblits. Just because you knew what you would see, did not make a huge impact, because you had to account for every other competitive list out there.
A good example, is that Ravenwing is going to be almost an auto-loss against CSM, because of Heldrakes. Is that going to stop competitive Ravenwing lists from showing up? No. You can't account for every single army list, and every single unit. You have to accept that some lists will just be a hard counter. It's something you have to deal with in a tournament environment. Of course, the goal of a TAC list is to hone it to the point where it has the fewest possible hard counters.
wolfmerc wrote: As a chaos Player i really do not want to shoot for a cheesy list that is the only list that will keep you in league with other players, if a bunch of actual die-hard Chaos players wrote at least some of the options you could take as a chaos army, it would make a significant difference. My main concern in the chaos space marine codex is that it has no flavor. There are 9 legions that specialize in something and even those who have been around for ages don't get any fun options for their army? let's say a night lords army had all fast attack as troops, what a difference maker (that would be seriously absurd, but really that's pretty much what goes on in the fluff). Heck iron warriors could take all heavy support 10 points less if fielding a warpsmith, those points add up! Maybe for the world eaters you can consolidate into another assault after you made one already, wow! I am not going to go through all the legions but rules with more flavor would certainly draw more players into playing csm, and keep the existing players playing! I would have bunches of fun playing chaos because of the different play styles you cold choose from! Welp no we are stuck with only one flyer that is over used and 1 over priced assualt vehicle.
A couple of the things i do admire in the codex include the boon table, the artwork, the lore, and did i say the artwork? The vanilla hq units have lots of options though , and now with cultists in the mix, "oh yeah im bring CSM" i would love to be "That Guy" who brings droves of cultists and a cheap lord .
So in summary, my main problem with the CSM codex is lack of options and lack of team effiency.
1. Fast Attack as Troops would make CSM broken and Cheesy by one/twoish words: HELDRAKE SPAM! I guess airspam isn't restricted to Necrons anymore.
Well, Flyers aren't scoring. and if Fast Attack became troops, there'd maybe be a "Non-vehicle Fast Attack options become troops" clause.
You have an idea of what you will see in every army, and most armies build for this. My TAC are built to handle every type of army, to the best of it's ability, which is my point. Everyone Tailors their TAC to be able to handle, the top competative lists
Yes, and here goes the real problem. The most powerful CSM build is in fact a weaker version of the top competative builds. It relies on flyers (like Cron Air) and tough long-range units with low numbers (IG does something very similar with LRs) supporting fast assault units (SW). If somebody prepares for a competitive army, then he should be able to take on a CSM army. Against DA? Not so much. Too many variables, so a list tailored to beat competitive builds will actually have to fight a battle without the neccessary abilities to win.
So if someone asks himself the question: "Can I beat CSM?" then the answer will be straithforward - if he can beat flyers, tough ranged units and fast assault units then the answer is yes. But if the question is: "Can I beat DA?" then the answer will be: "Which DA?". And that could bring lots of problems to a TAC list or... the player can simply ignore the DA variety, but in this case, the DA player will start with a situational advantage (what the CSM player will never have).
Of course, the goal of a TAC list is to hone it to the point where it has the fewest possible hard counters.
Agreed. And that's the crux of it. The DA have enough viable options to do exactly that. Chaos does not. IMO
I'd be willing to disagree. Chaos's main problem is the severe lack of 2+ saves, which DA has in spades. Chaos then has to make do with high T/FNP units to survive. Chaos also has quite a few units that can move 12", which adds greatly to their threat. two maulerfiends coming at your Land Raider or Terminator unit isn't a good thing, especially since Maulfiends cost about half as much as a LR or Terminator unit.
Yes, and here goes the real problem. The most powerful CSM build is in fact a weaker version of the top competative builds. It relies on flyers (like Cron Air) and tough long-range units with low numbers (IG does something very similar with LRs) supporting fast assault units (SW). If somebody prepares for a competitive army, then he should be able to take on a CSM army. Against DA? Not so much. Too many variables, so a list tailored to beat competitive builds will actually have to fight a battle without the neccessary abilities to win.
There is nothing in a standard DA list, that will not already be accounted for in a top tournament competitive list.
So if someone asks himself the question: "Can I beat CSM?" then the answer will be straithforward - if he can beat flyers, tough ranged units and fast assault units then the answer is yes. But if the question is: "Can I beat DA?" then the answer will be: "Which DA?". And that could bring lots of problems to a TAC list or... the player can simply ignore the DA variety, but in this case, the DA player will start with a situational advantage (what the CSM player will never have).
Since we keep going in Circles here. Give me some Examples of things in DA lists, that would already not be prepared for in standard TAC tournament lists.
So if someone asks himself the question: "Can I beat CSM?" then the answer will be straithforward - if he can beat flyers, tough ranged units and fast assault units then the answer is yes. But if the question is: "Can I beat DA?" then the answer will be: "Which DA?". And that could bring lots of problems to a TAC list or... the player can simply ignore the DA variety, but in this case, the DA player will start with a situational advantage (what the CSM player will never have).
Pretty much this.
I'd be willing to disagree. Chaos's main problem is the severe lack of 2+ saves, which DA has in spades. Chaos then has to make do with high T/FNP units to survive. Chaos also has quite a few units that can move 12", which adds greatly to their threat. two maulerfiends coming at your Land Raider or Terminator unit isn't a good thing, especially since Maulfiends cost about half as much as a LR or Terminator unit.
Agreed that the 2+ save issue hurts Chaos (although it's not so high on my personal list of issues with Chaos). On the other hand, think about it, two Maulerfiends coming at a LR.-They are going to struggle to really crunch that Land Raider and combined the two cost more than the landraider to do it. MF are good for mauling troops, and the are good walking shields, but that just further calls out the fact that Chaos has serious troop delivery issues. For example, you can't just deep strike your Hel brute in a DPod so you have to walk it up field behind a shield unit. Actually, now that I think about it, most of the Chaos lists I've seen lately depend on this type of shield tactic in one form or another. Everything needs babysat by something else ...
Tycho wrote: On the other hand, think about it, two Maulerfiends coming at a LR.-They are going to struggle to really crunch that Land Raider and combined the two cost more than the landraider to do it.
Aren't Maulerfiends S10 AP2 Armourbane? That doesn't exactly struggle with anything.
Since we keep going in Circles here. Give me some Examples of things in DA lists, that would already not be prepared for in standard TAC tournament lists.
- Terminators with both good ranged and good melee capabilities (people usually prepare for TH/SS termies, so they bring shooting - but these termies actually shoot back!)
- The Belialbomb (9 DW Knights with Big B appearing out of nowhere in your back lines with pinpoint accuracy is definietly something you couldn't see before, it isn't even stuff like standard DPs raining from the skies, as they at least scatter, and deliver only shooty MEQs)
- Bikers with the bolter banner (fast attack units that don't want to assault you, but pour out insane ammount of dakka instead)
- Shooty rad grenades (I mean, everyone is perpared for melee rad grenades... but these are shooty ones!)
- An army without flyers
- A mixture of bikers and TEQ (both scoring), with nothing else. Like, I dunno if you can do this with any other army (maybe with Orks?)...
- Vehicles (including Land Raiders) with 4+ invu
The Belialbomb (9 DW Knights with Big B appearing out of nowhere in your back lines with pinpoint accuracy is definietly something you couldn't see before, it isn't even stuff like standard DPs raining from the skies, as they at least scatter, and deliver only shooty MEQs)
This one especially nailed me. I was having some moderate success using a Forgefiend gun line until some smart SOB figured this out and ruined my day. lol Haven't found an effective counter to it yet.
- Terminators with both good ranged and good melee capabilities (people usually prepare for TH/SS termies, so they bring shooting - but these termies actually shoot back!)
Ok, for one thing, people tend to come prepared for Termies, with the abundance of plasma and volume of fire weapons that people are taking in lists. If they are prepared for TH/SS, then that means TAC termies are even easier to handle. I actually PREFER Tac Termies, as either it makes zero difference for my volume of fire weapons (2+) or they are significantly easier to kill with my AP 1 and 2 Weapons. (5++ instead of 3++) Yes, they can shoot, and the Plasma cannon is very good, I don't see how TAC lists won't be prepared for this.
- The Belialbomb (9 DW Knights with Big B appearing out of nowhere in your back lines with pinpoint accuracy is definietly something you couldn't see before, it isn't even stuff like standard DPs raining from the skies, as they at least scatter, and deliver only shooty MEQs)
If my opponent wants to drop 1/4th of his Army right in front of me, that can only sit there for a turn against a Meta that is predominately shooty, then be my guest. if a list can't handle this, then it's not a good list. Hell, even proper deployment can mitigate this.
-
Bikers with the bolter banner (fast attack units that don't want to assault you, but pour out insane ammount of dakka instead)
Still only bikes. Still only bolters, with a snipable banner. Lists can handle this.
- Shooty rad grenades (I mean, everyone is perpared for melee rad grenades... but these are shooty ones!)
This is one of the few things, that lists can have trouble preparing for. Shooting Rad Grenades are excellent, and Black Knights are a great unit.
- An army without flyers
Which Hurts the DA far more than it could possibly help. DA lists are going to struggle with flyer heavy lists, as they have very few means to actually counter them, without allying in another army.
- A mixture of bikers and TEQ (both scoring), with nothing else. Like, I dunno if you can do this with any other army (maybe with Orks?)...
How would a standard list not be prepared for this? Everyone is loading up on Anti-troop and plasma weapons now a days.
- Vehicles (including Land Raiders) with 4+ invu
Skimmers have been getting 5+ Jink Saves just for moving, since the beginning of the edition. People are tending to take less Anti-Vehicle, so it's possible Land Raiders for DA will see a resurgence. I don't think it would give any serious Tourney lists pause though.
I'm going to say that I thought this was going to be a good comparison of both books but it didn't take long to realise that it was some crying fan boy book bashing. Good job guy, enjoy your power gaming and "I win armies."
^^Well, you can answer to these threats with "I'll bring plasma and massed anti-infantry and I'll take them out for good!". I must admit, so far, this is the only answer I got for the new DA codex. But since this game is not a chess, sooner or later, you will have the "What if something happens with my plasma and massed anti-infantry?" question and this is where the difference I mentioned earlier kicks in: against a simple codex like the CSM you can have an answer without actually facing the battlefield situation. But against DA, anything could happen, depending on the army of your opponent what could have a wide variety of various annoying things (mentioned above). So you will have to make the call right there and right now. You can say that your opponent will have the element of surprise.
AtoMaki wrote: ^^Well, you can answer to these threats with "I'll bring plasma and massed anti-infantry and I'll take them out for good!". I must admit, so far, this is the only answer I got for the new DA codex. But since this game is not a chess, sooner or later, you will have the "What if something happens with my plasma and massed anti-infantry?" question and this is where the difference I mentioned earlier kicks in: against a simple codex like the CSM you can have an answer without actually facing the battlefield situation. But against DA, anything could happen, depending on the army of your opponent what could have a wide variety of various annoying things (mentioned above). So you will have to make the call right there and right now. You can say that your opponent will have the element of surprise.
Ok, honestly, this is getting ridiculous.. Just because an Army has one available competitive build, does not mean it cannot compete in high levels of play. I don't know if I'm failing to explain it properly, or if if you are not understanding it. I'm going to try one more time.
I'll give you another example. Tyranids. Tyranids have about one viable tournament build, that pretty much involves two Flyrants+Tervigons/Guants+Doom+Sprinkle your choice of a few other units. Tyranids are doing excellent in tournaments, despite this. You know any Tyranid list will be bringing Double Flyrants, Tervigons, and Gaunts.
No one can say that the Tyranid book is a good book. It doesn't have a lot of competitive options, and most competitive builds consist of the same units. The good options are really good though, and because of this it is placing highly in tournaments. This is the same principle as the CSM codex.
AtoMaki wrote: ^^Well, you can answer to these threats with "I'll bring plasma and massed anti-infantry and I'll take them out for good!". I must admit, so far, this is the only answer I got for the new DA codex. But since this game is not a chess, sooner or later, you will have the "What if something happens with my plasma and massed anti-infantry?" question and this is where the difference I mentioned earlier kicks in: against a simple codex like the CSM you can have an answer without actually facing the battlefield situation. But against DA, anything could happen, depending on the army of your opponent what could have a wide variety of various annoying things (mentioned above). So you will have to make the call right there and right now. You can say that your opponent will have the element of surprise.
That's fine and all, I will love seeing what the Dark Angels players do to try to counter my Chaos Army and I'll have fun playing against. However, the OP just has a lot of whining and crying in it and to be honest was a waste of my time. That's fine if he wants to cry and cry about both codexes, that's what the internet is for nowadays anyway. It would have been refreshing reading a well written post on the CSM v DA codexes without all the whining.
deffskulla wrote: However, the OP just has a lot of whining and crying in it and to be honest was a waste of my time.
Sad thing is, that he is right. Over here, we had 5 CSM players originally (with me). Now, we have 2 (me and another guy). Everyone else hopped to - guess what? - DA... Because it is much more cool than their 'mehish' and 'single configuration win' CSM codex.
Ok, honestly, this is getting ridiculous.. Just because an Army has one available competitive build, does not mean it cannot compete in high levels of play. I don't know if I'm failing to explain it properly, or if if you are not understanding it. I'm going to try one more time.
Actually, I think we just compeltely miss each other's point . I say that the DA has better chances than the CSM, because it has much more variety. I think your counter-point to this was "you build your lists with variety in mind anyways". To that, I said that it is cool, but lists aren't everything, because you have to pre-plan and against DA, it is like pre-planning against 4-5 different codicies. Aaaand... I guess you said againts this that... "Screw planning, nids are still cool!"? Okay, I feel like this discussion is going nowhere .
Another thing to keep in mind, is while Champion of Chaos is pretty bad, DA have to upgrade to get a Veteran SGT, while Chaos squads come with them standard.
Not sure why people always seem to think that the upgrade cost is bad? If you add up the costs, you'll realize that the squad leaders of other codices don't come for free. A Chaos Marine costs 13 points. 5 would cost 65. But you pay 75 for the squad... because there's a Champion! Similarly for C:SM, a marine costs 16, 5 would be 80, but you pay 90 because of the Sergeant. As such DA have the option whether or not to pay that extra 10, which is only a good thing for them.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: A nice, cheap assault vehicle would've done then, and those special spikey upgrades aren't honestly worth it at all, most of them are either crap or overpriced. You want a really good LR? You want a crusader, not the Godhammer variant, especially not one that can't even split fire one of its lascannons.
A nice, cheap assault vehicle would indeed be nice for any and all SM armies, Chaos included. As for a good LR? I just can't force myself to like the LRC's in-game performance despite being a Templar player, because it simply lacks firepower, making it nothing but a fat-butt transport. At least the Godhammer can do some damage against even heavy armor. The LRC can only really hurt weaker targets. And then there's the Redeemer, which can do very nasty things if it reaches its target and unleashes those Flamestorms. So even with the carrying capacity decrease, I'd probably run a Redeemer of a LRC for transporting almost always, if only my primary Codex would allow for it. And as for Godhammer, silly me I bought the Crusader/Redeemer instead of Godhammer + C/R sprue, and then ended up with a second LRC/R from the Megaforce One of each would've been nice.
First, I think your analysis was good. It was well thought out and you explained what codex is better for a power standpoint.
There are a few small things I disagree with, like I think CSM has a better fast attack as spawn, bikes, and helldrakes are all top notch.
I think the 'feel' of the armies are very different. That's something that I don't think you hit on.
CSM and DA playstyles are akin to Ryu and Sagat. (if that does not out-date some of the younger kids here). While they have some of the same tools, like rhinos, predators, and land raiders, they both have very different feels.
CSM has a lot more large monsters. You can bring maulerfiends and daemon princes. You can bring monsters in the form of chaos spawn. Its characters are extremely good in assault which is fitting for CSM. You can bring really cheap worshipers of chaos in the form of cultists.
DA brings much tougher overall units. They have great terminators. Not on the level of paladins, but very solid. They have bike options. They don't really have any super monsters like a BA furioso dread. Instead DA utilizes more synergy than other marine codex'es.
Their both cool, and both have excellent 'feels' to the playstyle yet they are vastly different in how they play on the board. Much like Ryu and Sagat, if you know one, you can pick up the other, but you will be far from a master.
I'd just like to point out, anyone who thinks they can only win with CSM with one list configuration is dumb. The Heldrake is not an auto-take, you can still win with Thousand Sons, and Mutilators aren't entirely garbage.
McNinja wrote: I'd just like to point out, anyone who thinks they can only win with CSM with one list configuration is dumb.
Sure. You can win with a Tau army containing only Fire Warriors and Stealth Suits (led by Shadowsun) too. It just needs a little cooperation from your opponent's side. You can win with Thousand Sons, I won't say that you can't, but you will have some hard time with it, especially if your opponent decides to bring a WAAC list.
McNinja wrote: I'd just like to point out, anyone who thinks they can only win with CSM with one list configuration is dumb. The Heldrake is not an auto-take, you can still win with Thousand Sons, and Mutilators aren't entirely garbage.
You can win with mandrakes, it is just playing the game on hard mode.
Tsons are pretty bad and mutilators are garbage.
the codex has a lot of stuff in it but a lot of it just feels rushed and poorly thought out.
McNinja wrote: I'd just like to point out, anyone who thinks they can only win with CSM with one list configuration is dumb. The Heldrake is not an auto-take, you can still win with Thousand Sons, and Mutilators aren't entirely garbage.
If you actually think you can win with Thousand Sons against even a slightly competitive army than ultimately you're the one who is dumb. "Oh but use them right!" Or how about don't take one of the worst units in the game. "But they have a 4+ invul!". Doesn't matter to lasguns or bolters. "B-but they have AP 3?" They cost 24 points per model, I hope that they have something that doesn't suck completely.
Mutilators aren't entirely garbage but they're pretty damn close.
Listen, in magical Christmas land, I totally agree with you. Also in magical Christmas land my Warp Talons will always blind their opponent and my opponents will have all of their stuff out of cover so that I don't strike at I1 because I lack grenades.
Basically all I get from this thread is that Chaos is "Codex: Hurrr buy our new overpriced crappy looking monsters".
labmouse42 wrote: First, I think your analysis was good. It was well thought out and you explained what codex is better for a power standpoint.
There are a few small things I disagree with, like I think CSM has a better fast attack as spawn, bikes, and helldrakes are all top notch.
I think the 'feel' of the armies are very different. That's something that I don't think you hit on.
CSM and DA playstyles are akin to Ryu and Sagat. (if that does not out-date some of the younger kids here). While they have some of the same tools, like rhinos, predators, and land raiders, they both have very different feels.
CSM has a lot more large monsters. You can bring maulerfiends and daemon princes. You can bring monsters in the form of chaos spawn. Its characters are extremely good in assault which is fitting for CSM. You can bring really cheap worshipers of chaos in the form of cultists.
DA brings much tougher overall units. They have great terminators. Not on the level of paladins, but very solid. They have bike options. They don't really have any super monsters like a BA furioso dread. Instead DA utilizes more synergy than other marine codex'es.
Their both cool, and both have excellent 'feels' to the playstyle yet they are vastly different in how they play on the board. Much like Ryu and Sagat, if you know one, you can pick up the other, but you will be far from a master.
'Feel' can indeed explain a lot of differences, but I believe it is stretching the point here.
To even be able to talk about an army's 'feel', you have to be able to tell what it is about, and if it is chasing those goals correctly.
Let's take DA, for instance. What are they about? The duality of fast Ravenwing and tough Deathwing, forbidden secrets and artifacts and the determination to never back down. I think we can agree that the rules and book match that rather well.
Now what are CSM about? I honestly cannot tell you. Are they in-your-face assaulters? They lack fast/assault transports of any kind other than the most basic version of the tank all SMs get (a worse version, too), and their main assaulting troop was badly nerfed. Are they about massed dakka? They have no long-range artillery or special tanks or anything with truly scary volume of fire. Are they about churning out monstrous beasts? They have as many MCs as the Grey Knight codex in their list, and GKs can actually put three on the table at once as opposed to two. Are they about the mighty warp-powers of sorcerers? They have no psyker defenses and are hobbled by clunky deity-specific power requirements and substandard lists. Are they about sneaky tactics and sabotage? They have to rely on Warlord Traits to get even minimal Infiltration, and nothing has Stealth or Shrouded, or ways to mess with reserves.
Maulerfiends and Forgefiends are not monsters. They look like monsters, but they are basically specialized dreadnaughts and god down like dreads.
CSM characters are great in assault, but the DA characters are also CC beasts and do more for the rest of the army. Ezekiel may be the best Special Character in the game right now for what he brings to the table, bar none.
labmouse42 wrote: First, I think your analysis was good. It was well thought out and you explained what codex is better for a power standpoint.
There are a few small things I disagree with, like I think CSM has a better fast attack as spawn, bikes, and helldrakes are all top notch.
I think the 'feel' of the armies are very different. That's something that I don't think you hit on.
CSM and DA playstyles are akin to Ryu and Sagat. (if that does not out-date some of the younger kids here). While they have some of the same tools, like rhinos, predators, and land raiders, they both have very different feels.
CSM has a lot more large monsters. You can bring maulerfiends and daemon princes. You can bring monsters in the form of chaos spawn. Its characters are extremely good in assault which is fitting for CSM. You can bring really cheap worshipers of chaos in the form of cultists.
DA brings much tougher overall units. They have great terminators. Not on the level of paladins, but very solid. They have bike options. They don't really have any super monsters like a BA furioso dread. Instead DA utilizes more synergy than other marine codex'es.
Their both cool, and both have excellent 'feels' to the playstyle yet they are vastly different in how they play on the board. Much like Ryu and Sagat, if you know one, you can pick up the other, but you will be far from a master.
'Feel' can indeed explain a lot of differences, but I believe it is stretching the point here.
To even be able to talk about an army's 'feel', you have to be able to tell what it is about, and if it is chasing those goals correctly.
Let's take DA, for instance. What are they about? The duality of fast Ravenwing and tough Deathwing, forbidden secrets and artifacts and the determination to never back down. I think we can agree that the rules and book match that rather well.
Now what are CSM about? I honestly cannot tell you. Are they in-your-face assaulters? They lack fast/assault transports of any kind other than the most basic version of the tank all SMs get (a worse version, too), and their main assaulting troop was badly nerfed. Are they about massed dakka? They have no long-range artillery or special tanks or anything with truly scary volume of fire. Are they about churning out monstrous beasts? They have as many MCs as the Grey Knight codex in their list, and GKs can actually put three on the table at once as opposed to two. Are they about the mighty warp-powers of sorcerers? They have no psyker defenses and are hobbled by clunky deity-specific power requirements and substandard lists. Are they about sneaky tactics and sabotage? They have to rely on Warlord Traits to get even minimal Infiltration, and nothing has Stealth or Shrouded, or ways to mess with reserves.
Maulerfiends and Forgefiends are not monsters. They look like monsters, but they are basically specialized dreadnaughts and god down like dreads.
CSM characters are great in assault, but the DA characters are also CC beasts and do more for the rest of the army. Ezekiel may be the best Special Character in the game right now for what he brings to the table, bar none.
CSM are about challenging enemy characters, then hoping you win and getting something nice out of it. Sadly CSM characters arent really all that good at killing enemy characters, unless they are expensive ICs and then if you do win you are rarely going to get anything interesting.
The Champions of Chaos and Chaos Boon table are the greatest failing of the CSM dex. I am reshaping my chaos list because the boons are just too minor, too random, too annoying to keep track of.
The Champions of Chaos and Chaos Boon table are the greatest failing of the CSM dex. I am reshaping my chaos list because the boons are just too minor, too random, too annoying to keep track of.
The funny thing is they expected you to use them it seems, you can even see that possessed champions can get two gifts, at the same cost of a normal marine.
If they had been cheaper, if they had been more selectable, if there had been more to mitigate it..
Sure random is fun at times, but the randomness comes in a manner where you are not BETTER at anyone to get it. You are a champion of chaos, unlike fantasy's chaos, where the champions could quite literally punch out most men, women, and giant lizardfolk with a hand tied behind his back, you are equal to most things.
That's not a champion, that's a mook sacrificing himself in a foolish way. Yet even the sorcerers and lords fail in that manner, chaos isn't exactly orks when it comes to tactics!
Chaos allied with demons can be crushing to a player.
It gives demons a chance to be bold since you won't get tabled if they get shot badly and if deployed with any sense, can reach a turn 2 assault.
So all that back range shooting is getting stabbed by lots of demons, and my chaos can march up the table with little to no challenge, and oh look, they all love to be in combat, how fun for me.
I by no means claim this "tactic" will table DA, I simply wish to state that chaos do have a multitude of tactics and units to make it work. Well... Ok, all our tactics are "remove faces in combat", but we have lots of ways to do it :p
I think chaos will go unfavoured by the masses as the test codex/bad guys always loose/look at the mono build tourney list, but chaos are a close range nightmare, and even with 2D6 assault range, the benefits of slugging out some combat remains just as strong as it was last edition.
Yeah, shooting got better cause there's more of it, assault and a handy dirge carter can still lead to blood for the blood god,
40K is still a game of rock paper scissors. Anything the DA can field can be killed by something that will show up in a TAC list of any other faction. And anything that will show up on the other side of the table a TACDA list will have something that can kill it.
It all depends on how much scissors your bring to a paper fight. And all armies have their fair share of rocks.
The Chaos codex is not weak. It has the guns, it has the melee. It all just depends on what the player brings and how well they choose their targets.
40K is still a game of rock paper scissors. Anything the DA can field can be killed by something that will show up in a TAC list of any other faction. And anything that will show up on the other side of the table a TACDA list will have something that can kill it.
It all depends on how much scissors your bring to a paper fight. And all armies have their fair share of rocks.
The Chaos codex is not weak. It has the guns, it has the melee. It all just depends on what the player brings and how well they choose their targets.
Care to elaborate a bit on that premise?
Take a 1500-point game. Imperial Guard, Command squad with a fleet officer to bork reserves, two vendettas, two LRBTs, a Basilisk, Marbo and then around 800+ more points of troops, blobs and or veteran squads in Chimeras depending on one's taste. It's not even a very competitive list and yet most CSM builds would sweat against it, having their backfield pounded by Artilelry, Marbo and twin-linked lascannons, lacking anti-vehicle fire to deal with the tanks and chimeras and Valks together.
Or let' take some Necrons. Overlord in a Barge with MSS, semp weave and shifter as well as a warscythe. 4 Night Scythes, one big blob of 20 warriors, 3 more units of warriors or immortals in the scythes, a unit of deathmarks to snipe icons and characters, a pack of waraiths with coils and two Anihhilation Barges. Able to win any challenge on the warlord, wear down any heavy armor or 2+ save via sheer volume of fire, more flyers than most lists can deal with, and yet also far from optimal. What is the Chaos plan here?
40K is still a game of rock paper scissors. Anything the DA can field can be killed by something that will show up in a TAC list of any other faction. And anything that will show up on the other side of the table a TACDA list will have something that can kill it.
It all depends on how much scissors your bring to a paper fight. And all armies have their fair share of rocks.
The Chaos codex is not weak. It has the guns, it has the melee. It all just depends on what the player brings and how well they choose their targets.
Care to elaborate a bit on that premise?
Take a 1500-point game. Imperial Guard, Command squad with a fleet officer to bork reserves, two vendettas, two LRBTs, a Basilisk, Marbo and then around 800+ more points of troops, blobs and or veteran squads in Chimeras depending on one's taste. It's not even a very competitive list and yet most CSM builds would sweat against it, having their backfield pounded by Artilelry, Marbo and twin-linked lascannons, lacking anti-vehicle fire to deal with the tanks and chimeras and Valks together.
Or let' take some Necrons. Overlord in a Barge with MSS, semp weave and shifter as well as a warscythe. 4 Night Scythes, one big blob of 20 warriors, 3 more units of warriors or immortals in the scythes, a unit of deathmarks to snipe icons and characters, a pack of waraiths with coils and two Anihhilation Barges. Able to win any challenge on the warlord, wear down any heavy armor or 2+ save via sheer volume of fire, more flyers than most lists can deal with, and yet also far from optimal. What is the Chaos plan here?
Tell you what. Why not pick an army that not in the top 5 of the power curve. IG is undercosted in everything that is actually worth taking and Necrons are so special rule heavy where your not even playing the same game half the time.
Take 1500 points of BT, Tau, Sisters, Nids, Eldar, DE, Orks, other Chaos, Daemons, etc. Chaos is not a top 5 army book. Sad, but true and DA might just be creeping up there. But the game is more than DA vs Chaos. Besides, anyone who seriously wants to actually dominate a tournament is still going to take GK, SW, Necrons and throw in some IG allies to hedge their chances. DA wont even be considered in the running.
And thats why I'm finding this thread so funny. Its like people are squabbling about who is the stronger second banana.
My personal Chaos list has I5 lighting claws. 5 AP3 template weapons, 12 guys with AP2 HTH weapons, and a plethora of shooting out to 24". Its a ton of fun and still makes most other armies sweat. Its never been a sure thing, but its never been walked over either.
It all depends on how much scissors your bring to a paper fight. And all armies have their fair share of rocks.
Just felt that that statement allowed me to roll out the big guns.
Though to be fair, I expect some DW builds to own chaos badly. Guided DS in the right turn to mulch Oblits and Havocs, melee weapons that gain extra AP against chaos giving the whole army ork saves in CC, maybe a few Lascannon devs in the back twinlinked by Divination to crack transports, pound Daemon engines and drop Helldrakes that don't focus them instantly.
So, maybe it will come to pass that DW owns the chaos codex.
But do you know how badly 30 single wound terminators do against 140 - 160 Orks? I've found that ranking in tournaments greatly depend on the luck of the favorable match up.
And there are enough ork players that show up to play in tourniments where winning or loosing isn't all important, but they can play the massive spoiler card for someone elses victory ambition.
Jayden63 wrote: So, maybe it will come to pass that DW owns the chaos codex.
But do you know how badly 30 single wound terminators do against 140 - 160 Orks? I've found that ranking in tournaments greatly depend on the luck of the favorable match up.
And there are enough ork players that show up to play in tourniments where winning or loosing isn't all important, but they can play the massive spoiler card for someone elses victory ambition.
>Implying that Horde Orks actually show up in tournaments
Newsflash, they really don't. They take too long to set up/take down.
Also
The Chaos codex is not weak. It has the guns, it has the melee. It all just depends on what the player brings and how well they choose their targets.
Durrr Eldar have guns, Eldar have melee. It all just depends on what the player brings and how well they choose their targets.
Sephyr wrote: Take a 1500-point game. Imperial Guard, Command squad with a fleet officer to bork reserves, two vendettas, two LRBTs, a Basilisk, Marbo and then around 800+ more points of troops, blobs and or veteran squads in Chimeras depending on one's taste. It's not even a very competitive list and yet most CSM builds would sweat against it, having their backfield pounded by Artilelry, Marbo and twin-linked lascannons, lacking anti-vehicle fire to deal with the tanks and chimeras and Valks together.
Start the game in rhinos behind an AGL. Move up 18" on turn one. PG/MG the sides of the chimeras. Use the helldrakes to toast the vets inside. Vector strike chimeras/basalisk. Stuff krak gernades up the pipes of LRBTs. Endure the fire from dual vendettas -- their shots only have a 41.6% of killing a PM per shot -- less if there is cover.
I actually would feel pretty confident about that matchup.
Now if you want to bitch about how there are only 2 effective CSM builds, I would agree with you. You got either Nurgle PMs or Noise Marines.
Saying that they can't complete with a moderately effective build is another story.
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Vladsimpaler wrote: >Implying that Horde Orks actually show up in tournaments
Newsflash, they really don't. They take too long to set up/take down.
That's funny. I'm carpooling with a guy to templecon who plays hoard orks on a normal basis. He uses large movement trays for his army, and has gotten very good at manuerving them.
labmouse42 wrote: Start the game in rhinos behind an AGL. Move up 18" on turn one. PG/MG the sides of the chimeras. Use the helldrakes to toast the vets inside. Vector strike chimeras/basalisk. Stuff krak gernades up the pipes of LRBTs. Endure the fire from dual vendettas -- their shots only have a 41.6% of killing a PM per shot -- less if there is cover.
I actually would feel pretty confident about that matchup.
Now if you want to bitch about how there are only 2 effective CSM builds, I would agree with you. You got either Nurgle PMs or Noise Marines.
Saying that they can't complete with a moderately effective build is another story.
Not saying it can't happen, but you're assuming an awful lot.
1-None of your rhinos getting stuck on your own ADL as you race forward.
2- Enemy leaving Chimera sides exposed instead of blocking them with the Russes.
3-Helldrakes arriving on turn 2 despite Fleet commander delaying them to a 4+ (possibly more depending on his Warlord trait), and surviving more than 1 turn after Vendettas come into play.
4-No ADL on the other side where IG vehicles, who have much longer ranges on their guns, can stay and mow down your stuff as it advances.
5-No cheap infantry guarding the tanks from assault
6-A poorly placed Basilisk that can be Vectored in turn 1; placed decently back, you would only reach it in your movement path if you fly right off the board!
labmouse42 wrote: Start the game in rhinos behind an AGL. Move up 18" on turn one. PG/MG the sides of the chimeras. Use the helldrakes to toast the vets inside. Vector strike chimeras/basalisk. Stuff krak gernades up the pipes of LRBTs. Endure the fire from dual vendettas -- their shots only have a 41.6% of killing a PM per shot -- less if there is cover.
I actually would feel pretty confident about that matchup.
Now if you want to bitch about how there are only 2 effective CSM builds, I would agree with you. You got either Nurgle PMs or Noise Marines.
Saying that they can't complete with a moderately effective build is another story.
Not saying it can't happen, but you're assuming an awful lot.
1-None of your rhinos getting stuck on your own ADL as you race forward.
2- Enemy leaving Chimera sides exposed instead of blocking them with the Russes.
3-Helldrakes arriving on turn 2 despite Fleet commander delaying them to a 4+ (possibly more depending on his Warlord trait), and surviving more than 1 turn after Vendettas come into play.
4-No ADL on the other side where IG vehicles, who have much longer ranges on their guns, can stay and mow down your stuff as it advances.
5-No cheap infantry guarding the tanks from assault
6-A poorly placed Basilisk that can be Vectored in turn 1; placed decently back, you would only reach it in your movement path if you fly right off the board!
I'd go noise heavy.
mos Lord
sorcerer
x6 min noise marines and sonics with BM
x2 havoks with autocannons
defiler
with the defiler and havoks perched on a skyshield platform.
Thats a whole bunch of fearless objective holders that put down impressive fire power that ignores cover.
Sephyr wrote: 1-None of your rhinos getting stuck on your own ADL as you race forward.
2- Enemy leaving Chimera sides exposed instead of blocking them with the Russes.
3-Helldrakes arriving on turn 2 despite Fleet commander delaying them to a 4+ (possibly more depending on his Warlord trait), and surviving more than 1 turn after Vendettas come into play.
4-No ADL on the other side where IG vehicles, who have much longer ranges on their guns, can stay and mow down your stuff as it advances.
5-No cheap infantry guarding the tanks from assault
6-A poorly placed Basilisk that can be Vectored in turn 1; placed decently back, you would only reach it in your movement path if you fly right off the board!
1-Dozer blades lower the chances to 1/36 of getting stuck. That's a rational amount
2 - To block that shooting you would need to literally push the russ right next to the Chimera. Go ahead, that makes it easier to multi assault with gernades.
3- Thats why I bring a comm relay in every game I play now a days. A comm relay gives a 75% of getting each drake even with master of the fleet. If your bringing more than 1 reserve unit, you should always bring one.
4- An ADL on the other side also means you can assault any unit within 2" of the ADL by assaulting the ADL itself. That makes it easier to stuff krak grenades down tail pipes.
5-More cheap bodies to assault, preventing me from getting shot at. Ill take that.
6- You vector strike on turn 3.
Ok, seriously we can keep hypothetically talking about 'what ifs' all day long. It's rather moot because what happens if its an objective mission, kill points, or relic? Talking 'what if' ignores these other elements that make a game happen.
If you live in the New England area, or are attending Adepticon/NOVA and want to meet up and play a game, Ill be happy to play with you. We can test it out. I have both the IG and CSM armies so you don't need to even bring models.
My problem with the CSM codex is your stuck to Nurgle or Slaanesh (maybe unmarked) if you want a decent list. That does not mean the codex is auto-lose. CSM is not auto-win either. Its just a middle-tier codex.
That's were we disagree. You seem to be under the opinion that CSM auto-loses to IG/Necrons.
My problem with the CSM codex is your stuck to Nurgle or Slaanesh (maybe unmarked) if you want a decent list.
Make it just Nurgle and leave it there. Slaanesh got a buff it didn't really needed, but Slaanesh still suffer from fargility and mobility issues what could be problematic when your opponent goes for a secondary objectives victory (quite usual around here!).
labmouse42 wrote: That does not mean the codex is auto-lose. CSM is not auto-win either. Its just a middle-tier codex.
AtoMaki wrote: Make it just Nurgle and leave it there. Slaanesh got a buff it didn't really needed, but Slaanesh still suffer from fargility and mobility issues what could be problematic when your opponent goes for a secondary objectives victory (quite usual around here!).
Yea, I don't play Slaanesh, I was going off what people say on the forums.
I've been playing Nurgle and its been treating me well. Plague marines are tougher than nails. Last night I had Ghaz and 4 mega nobs slam into a squad of 9 PMs. It took them 3 combat rounds to chew through the PMs, and I managed to throw a wound on every nob in the assault.
My friend who plays that ork army no longer ever consideres 'shootas' as decent weapons vs the PMs. They have about a 1/50 chance of killing the PM. Even marine bolters pretty much bounce off.
The biggest issue I've been finding is 'killyness' and 'range'. PMs are very durable, but only have a 24" range. They also have less bolters/bodies to spam shots. That's were helldrakes have proven useful. Last night I tried allying in with necrons and brought double scythe and double helldrake -- and it worked pretty well.
labmouse42 wrote: I managed to throw a wound on every nob in the assault.
Going a bit off topic with this, but by the 6th edition rules, shouldn't he be allocating wounds to nobs that already have taken one, rather than to another one that hasn't?
Jayden63 wrote: So, maybe it will come to pass that DW owns the chaos codex.
But do you know how badly 30 single wound terminators do against 140 - 160 Orks? I've found that ranking in tournaments greatly depend on the luck of the favorable match up.
And there are enough ork players that show up to play in tourniments where winning or loosing isn't all important, but they can play the massive spoiler card for someone elses victory ambition.
Exactly Deathwing which is fantastic anti-chaos is at a terrible disadvantage to horde orks. I've played horde orks and i've beaten them but its never easy and there were still a lot of orks on the table.
Wandre wrote: Just a few more of these threads and...
Much like the Eldar created Slaanesh through extreme hedonism.
Chaos players will give birth to a new god.
The god of weeping, moaning, stamping of feet and pulling of wispy neckbeards.
I'll have you know my neckbeard is extravagantly groomed, my good sir, and the pride our our local cribbage community!
Also, find actual points to argue from the thread, or return to admiring your oiled, waxed image on the mirror array in your walk-in closet, O stoic olympian.
Wandre wrote: Just a few more of these threads and...
Much like the Eldar created Slaanesh through extreme hedonism.
Chaos players will give birth to a new god.
The god of weeping, moaning, stamping of feet and pulling of wispy neckbeards.
You forgot black nail polish, heavy metal band t-shirts, and hatred of your dad! I am offended, good sir! I will see you on Boston Common at dawn sir! Bring your second.
Really the problem comparing the new DA codex and CSM codex is that...
The Dark Angels are a singular loyalist space marine chapter in one book dedicated to them. They DO have a lot of different builds but really those are just different companies.
The Chaos Marine book tried to cram the whole power armored community of the eye of terror into one book. No wonder its awful.
I think lesser units in loyalist books are seen as much more forgivable because they fit a theme (As in they are all the same chapter)
Slapping marks on generic CSM units is lazy and chaos players don't deserve that kind of treatment (I'm a chaos player too) I'm sure we would find the power level of individual CSM units to be much more acceptable if there were a lot more choices for each chaos god.
CSM are no where near perfect but they sure aren't wheelchair bound either (Well maybe Doomrider...where is he?)
CSM are no where near perfect but they sure aren't wheelchair bound either (Well maybe Doomrider...where is he?)
I quite agree. I can say a lot of bad things about the book, bt it's not unworkable or even weak (though I think it will -become- weak rather quickly).
The main point is (and I knoe it's not clear in the OP) that since each army only gets a book every 4-7 years, it's a wasted opportunity to do something cool and fun. It's not even a matter of space in the physical book; It's actually weird how many times they actually put something cool in there in concept ad them either gimp it or fail to use it.
-Fleshmetal: Merita a whole entry in the wargear section. Exactly one unit can take it and comes with it standard. It would cost a line of text and some ricing to let Chaos Lords take it (make your Iron Warriors big baddie) and allow tons of fun conversions beyind termi armor.
-FOC Flexibility: Again, it costs only a few extra line s on the Army List to let some very cool stuff happen that doesn't break the game Something like "An unmarked Chaos Lord on a bike can treat one unit of chais bikers as a scoring unit", or "An unmarked Chaos lord with a jump pack or wings counts one unit of Raptors or Warp Talons as scoring". Bam, you have renegades and Night Lords made more diverse and fun.
-Sorcery Weaksauceness: Again, they lose a chance to make sorcery a bit different frim just regular psykers wit more horns. Giving Tzeentch some powers that affect enemy casting in addition to a basic effect, or even a hood-like piece of wargear that makes psyker powers for friend and foe becomes wilder (a psycho version of the eldar runes). A brutal number of csm powers are barely worth the risk of getting Perils, facing Deny the Witch and so on.
-Mis-used Marks: It would take one, maybe two more pages to make marks into something more flavorful than a statline boost. They -almost- do it (nurgle marked lords can take blight greanades). Why not have a small eqipment list unlocked via Marks? Like this:
Slaanesh: -Characters witha mark of Slaanesh can purchase a Doom Siren for X points.
-Any model marked with Slaanesh can exchange his bolter or combi-bolter for a Noise Blaster for Y points.
-Hellbrutes in a main detachments with a Slaanesh-marked Lord or Sorcerer can replace their multi-melta with a Blatmaster for X points.
You have cult terminators and bikes and more varied troops and elites, while still having the cult trrop option being something extra (Fearless, Blastmaster on infantry), not to mention having your Chaos Lord actuallý use EC-themed weaponry. Took three lines, doesn't break the game. Just price it properly. Would have made so many of us neckbears have fun for years with a new army build.
-Fleshmetal: Merita a whole entry in the wargear section. Exactly one unit can take it and comes with it standard. It would cost a line of text and some ricing to let Chaos Lords take it (make your Iron Warriors big baddie) and allow tons of fun conversions beyind termi armor.
The rest of your post is valid, but there's three units with it (Warp smith, Obliterators, Mutilators)
Course that seems to be another issue, Hades autocannon is only on two things and it's standard, and cannot be taken on anything else, and it's the new vehicles (Heldrake, Forgefiend) , Bale flamer is only on ONE (Heldrake), and so is Ectoplasm (Forgefiend), as well as the melta cutters (Maulerfiend)
Sephyr wrote: -Fleshmetal: Merita a whole entry in the wargear section. Exactly one unit can take it and comes with it standard. It would cost a line of text and some ricing to let Chaos Lords take it (make your Iron Warriors big baddie) and allow tons of fun conversions beyind termi armor.
Have you noticed the lack of 2+ saves for characters in the past 2 books?
Artificer armor is a lot less common now. Only techmarines, Azrael, and Ezekiel have it in the DA book. Noone in the CSM codex has it.
Terminator armor is the only way to give your non-named characters a 2+ armor save. Terminator armor has a drawback by not being able to sweep, or ride in rhinos.
This is not an accident. The GW staff are making 2+ saves less common, thereby making power weapons (and all AP3 weapons) more effective by relation. You will also notice that very few ICs have AP2 weapons (outside power fists).
This is a trend I think we will continue to see, and will be a defining feature of 6th. That means enjoy your artificer armor while you have it, C:SM, SW and BA. It's not going to be around for long.
It also is why fleshmetal was not added as a option for CSM. They are trying to get rid of 2+ saves for the most part.
-Fleshmetal: Merita a whole entry in the wargear section. Exactly one unit can take it and comes with it standard. It would cost a line of text and some ricing to let Chaos Lords take it (make your Iron Warriors big baddie) and allow tons of fun conversions beyind termi armor.
The rest of your post is valid, but there's three units with it (Warp smith, Obliterators, Mutilators)
Course that seems to be another issue, Hades autocannon is only on two things and it's standard, and cannot be taken on anything else, and it's the new vehicles (Heldrake, Forgefiend) , Bale flamer is only on ONE (Heldrake), and so is Ectoplasm (Forgefiend), as well as the melta cutters (Maulerfiend)
Well spotted, but to be fair I don't quite get the fleshmetal change for Oblits and Mutilators since they retain the 2+/5+ combo. Maybe it's just a mechanical trick to explain why they have Slow and Purposeful instead of Relentless.
But yes, it's odd. Why no Predator with Hades sponsons, or giving a Hades option to oblits instead of the assault Cannon (though it was nice to include the AC, mind). If they really are so keen on not making CSM be just spiky marines, different weapons lots of units can take go a looong way.
Artificer armor is a lot less common now. Only techmarines, Azrael, and Ezekiel have it in the DA book. Noone in the CSM codex has it.
Terminator armor is the only way to give your non-named characters a 2+ armor save. Terminator armor has a drawback by not being able to sweep, or ride in rhinos.
But there is a lot of non-termi 2+ in books that will be around for a looong time. Sanguinary Guard (BA in general, in fact), Sempiternal weave on lords a plenty in the Necron book (Who are T5 and can pop back up, mind). It's still a factor and will be for the lion's share of 6Th Ed's run.
Sephyr wrote: -Fleshmetal: Merita a whole entry in the wargear section. Exactly one unit can take it and comes with it standard. It would cost a line of text and some ricing to let Chaos Lords take it (make your Iron Warriors big baddie) and allow tons of fun conversions beyind termi armor.
Have you noticed the lack of 2+ saves for characters in the past 2 books?
Artificer armor is a lot less common now. Only techmarines, Azrael, and Ezekiel have it in the DA book. Noone in the CSM codex has it.
Terminator armor is the only way to give your non-named characters a 2+ armor save. Terminator armor has a drawback by not being able to sweep, or ride in rhinos.
This is not an accident. The GW staff are making 2+ saves less common, thereby making power weapons (and all AP3 weapons) more effective by relation. You will also notice that very few ICs have AP2 weapons (outside power fists).
This is a trend I think we will continue to see, and will be a defining feature of 6th. That means enjoy your artificer armor while you have it, C:SM, SW and BA. It's not going to be around for long.
It also is why fleshmetal was not added as a option for CSM. They are trying to get rid of 2+ saves for the most part.
Company Masters in the DA codex can purchase Artificer armor though. CSM Lords cannot.
Sasori wrote: Company Masters in the DA codex can purchase Artificer armor though. CSM Lords cannot.
Well, what do you know. Your right.
I am wrong then. 2+ saves are still nearly as common on the new ICs. CSM just got boned.
Ha read that with your sig, felt appropriate.
As to the codex comparison, I think CSMs are actually quite ahead in a one to one battle with the new DAs mainly because we have 2 strengths; alot of AP2 and alot of AP3 ignoring cover. AP2 is plentiful in the codex with chosen able to take 5(!) plasmaguns, plague marine and vanilla able to take 2 per squad, and oblits and forgefiends have plasma templates, and of course we have the ever useful axe of blind fury which gives out AP2 like the antidote is in it. Then we also ignore a lot of cover with AP3 with the bale flamer, the BBoS, and blastmasters. This is a nightmare for any DA player.
In regards to our codex to the overall, however, we are a bit lacking, with odd and high costed units, lack of real flyer defense, no drop pods or easy DSing. We are thus in the odd meta position where all armies arn't on par with 6th balance (both under and over in comparison) which consequently leaves as a bit of a middle child at the moment. I believe, however, that as more codexes are updated for 6th I think CSMs hand will strengthen as 6th balance is brought into focus.
As to the codex comparison, I think CSMs are actually quite ahead in a one to one battle with the new DAs mainly because we have 2 strengths; alot of AP2 and alot of AP3 ignoring cover. AP2 is plentiful in the codex with chosen able to take 5(!) plasmaguns, plague marine and vanilla able to take 2 per squad, and oblits and forgefiends have plasma templates, and of course we have the ever useful axe of blind fury which gives out AP2 like the antidote is in it. Then we also ignore a lot of cover with AP3 with the bale flamer, the BBoS, and blastmasters. This is a nightmare for any DA player.
You still have to get those weapons in position to do their job. Other than the 'Drake, good luck doing that with the codex we currently have. Enjoy watching the RW just ride circles around your overly expensive chosen while staying *just* out of range, or having DW pop in and just murder your Demon engines. No, we do not have an advantage in this area over the DA. We DO have some good weapons. Kelly just completely forgot to give us any kind of solid, reliable delivery system for most of them ...
I think CSMs hand will strengthen as 6th balance is brought into focus.
You are the first and ONLY person I've heard say that. Curious as to why you think it. While the 'Crons and DA were CLEARLY written with 6th ed rules/mechanics in mind and even with the DA codex having an apparent eye towards balance (although I still think it's going to be top 3 or 4 when the 6th ed dust settles), the Chaos codex was NOT. This Chaos codex would have been right at home in 4th ed and many of the new units feel like hold-outs from that outdated rule set (how amazing would Warp Talons have been in almost ANY other edition - for example ...). The only spot where the Chaos book really takes the new rules into account it actually penalizes its own players. So I'm wondering where the idea is coming from that a book that is already on the weak side (against both the only other current codex as well as many of the out-dated ones) will somehow become MORE powerful?
I think CSMs hand will strengthen as 6th balance is brought into focus.
You are the first and ONLY person I've heard say that. Curious as to why you think it. While the 'Crons and DA were CLEARLY written with 6th ed rules/mechanics in mind and even with the DA codex having an apparent eye towards balance (although I still think it's going to be top 3 or 4 when the 6th ed dust settles), the Chaos codex was NOT. This Chaos codex would have been right at home in 4th ed and many of the new units feel like hold-outs from that outdated rule set (how amazing would Warp Talons have been in almost ANY other edition - for example ...). The only spot where the Chaos book really takes the new rules into account it actually penalizes its own players. So I'm wondering where the idea is coming from that a book that is already on the weak side (against both the only other current codex as well as many of the out-dated ones) will somehow become MORE powerful?
It's a matter of meta balance. You have the following codexes:
4th edition:
Eldar
Tau
BT
5th:
Daemons
SMs BAs
SWs IG DE Necrons
Grey Knights
6th:
CSM DA
In the meta CSMs obviously sit above the 4th edition codexes, and even above several of the 5th editions. Several of the 5th editions, Necrons, GKs, and IG are still the top meta. As 6th continues into its lifespan, and codexes are updated to match the edition they balanced not against previous or next edition codexes but current ones. Thus, as time goes on CSMs will be more competative as the meta balances more towards its style, which it established by the nature of being the first true 6th codex.
Here's an easy example, flyers. The vendetta is one of the most loathed units because it was balanced, and thus priced, for 5th where there were no flyers. Take that in comparison to the DA nephilim fighter which is balanced to the 6th meta prices. For CSMs, the helldrake is balanced in price for 6th, but wouldn't be balanced for 5th. It is balanced against the Nephilim in this example as a high costed flyer. Thus, as more codexes are updated, their flyers to will be updated comparable. This strengthens the CSM codex as more units are brought in line with its meta design.
Now I want to make it clear I'm not arguing it's the best codex, it's not, and there are plenty of WTF units and prices. But my argument is that it doesn't matter in a certain sense since becuase as more 6th edition codexes are realeased they will bolster the CSM by changing to its meta which it established.
In the meta CSMs obviously sit above the 4th edition codexes, and even above several of the 5th editions. Several of the 5th editions, Necrons, GKs, and IG are still the top meta. As 6th continues into its lifespan, and codexes are updated to match the edition they balanced not against previous or next edition codexes but current ones. Thus, as time goes on CSMs will be more competative as the meta balances more towards its style, which it established by the nature of being the first true 6th codex.
Here's an easy example, flyers. The vendetta is one of the most loathed units because it was balanced, and thus priced, for 5th where there were no flyers. Take that in comparison to the DA nephilim fighter which is balanced to the 6th meta prices. For CSMs, the helldrake is balanced in price for 6th, but wouldn't be balanced for 5th. It is balanced against the Nephilim in this example as a high costed flyer. Thus, as more codexes are updated, their flyers to will be updated comparable. This strengthens the CSM codex as more units are brought in line with its meta design.
Now I want to make it clear I'm not arguing it's the best codex, it's not, and there are plenty of WTF units and prices. But my argument is that it doesn't matter in a certain sense since becuase as more 6th edition codexes are realeased they will bolster the CSM by changing to its meta which it established.
All solid reasoning with well supported arguments. I take my hat off to you sir! [insert image of smartly dressed bowing Ork here]
I think you're right in that once the new edition pricing catches up to things like the Storm Raven, many of the current Hi-end codexes may not be so hi-end. That being said, the flaw with the Chaos codex will NOT be helped by that. The way the book is written, it becomes difficult to make a "complete" list. Like I said before, we FINALLY got our dreadnaughts fixed so they don't kill their own people and then .... STILL no way to get them to battle without walking them. Chaos is suppose to be full of tough, "assaulty" troops. How are YOU getting your berzerkers into battle? Hint, there's only two answers and they both suck. There is such a huge lack of cohesiveness and internal balance to the book that I think will ultimately drag the book down. On the other hand, ask a DA (or even a C:SM) player how they're getting THEIR assault units into battle and you will get a plethora of different possible answers. I'm using assault units as the primary example, but it's not the only one. Really, it's tough to get an army from this codex to work with itself while being more than a one trick pony. Especially at less than 2000pts. Not so with the DA codex. My money is on the Chaos book being one of the worst at the end of 6th due almost solely to a lack of proper force multipliers and unit cohesion.
EDIT:
I also still think the fact that Phil Kelley seemed to be writing this book with a copy of the 4th ed BRB in front of him (instead of, you know, the CURRENT rules) is going to bite Chaos in the arse ...
Here's an easy example, flyers. The vendetta is one of the most loathed units because it was balanced, and thus priced, for 5th where there were no flyers. Take that in comparison to the DA nephilim fighter which is balanced to the 6th meta prices. For CSMs, the helldrake is balanced in price for 6th, but wouldn't be balanced for 5th. It is balanced against the Nephilim in this example as a high costed flyer. Thus, as more codexes are updated, their flyers to will be updated comparable. This strengthens the CSM codex as more units are brought in line with its meta design.
Now I want to make it clear I'm not arguing it's the best codex, it's not, and there are plenty of WTF units and prices. But my argument is that it doesn't matter in a certain sense since becuase as more 6th edition codexes are realeased they will bolster the CSM by changing to its meta which it established.
A lot of good points here, but time is a -big- factor here. "Buy our stuff; that army you like just may be viable in 6 years once we work out the kinks on the stuff we just released!" is not the most attractive of sales pitches. All things considered, I'd rather have options against IG combined Steel wave, Daemon flying circus and Necron Airforce before my unborn kids are changing teeth.
This wouldn't be an issue if the company revised its rules/costs to keep things on a moderately even keel, but it's not their policy and that is that. When they _do_ change stuff, it's often for weird issues further stomp on the underdog: Nerfing Warptime into bunk in the last days of 5th, banning Eldar Farseers from using psyker powers from vehicles (trying to stop the onslaught of Eldar armies owning tournaments worldwide, I figure), etc.
Tycho wrote: On the other hand, ask a DA (or even a C:SM) player how they're getting THEIR assault units into battle and you will get a plethora of different possible answers.
How so? The only option available to DA/SM that isn't available to CSM is drop pods, which aren't that great because you can't assault on the turn you arrive, thus probably dying before you actually get to assault.
Or well, there's the loyalist LR variants, but they have the exact same problem the regular LR has - very high cost for what they bring to the table. That's why I can't basically play my BT as a CC army either, getting them into battle before they're whittled down into nothing is a pain the arse. Righteous Zeal might help close the gap faster if footslogging compared to other chapters - but it might also just as well screw you over entirely.
In other words, just about all power armored armies lack effective and efficient methods of delivery for CC units. I'll make a possible exception for BA and GK as they have the Stormraven, but then if you transport troops in it and the opponent has some Skyfire, you're risking a very high points loss when it comes crashing down with its contents. And when you go to hover mode to actually unload the troops you become an easy target for that turn.
EDIT: Oh, and SM do have LS Storm, but getting a single squad of scouts into CC isn't going to achieve much.
Here's an easy example, flyers. The vendetta is one of the most loathed units because it was balanced, and thus priced, for 5th where there were no flyers. Take that in comparison to the DA nephilim fighter which is balanced to the 6th meta prices. For CSMs, the helldrake is balanced in price for 6th, but wouldn't be balanced for 5th. It is balanced against the Nephilim in this example as a high costed flyer. Thus, as more codexes are updated, their flyers to will be updated comparable. This strengthens the CSM codex as more units are brought in line with its meta design..
The Dark Angel players drowned their sorrow into something similar after the previous DA codex came out .
How so? The only option available to DA/SM that isn't available to CSM is drop pods, which aren't that great because you can't assault on the turn you arrive, thus probably dying before you actually get to assault.
Yes, however it offers your dreadnoughts and troops the ability to have safe landings in the backfield, and thus you have a better chance at a turn 3 assault, not to mention the vast amount of homing beacons for deepstrikers with the ravenwing and you can have some incredible deepstrikes.
So either you get close with drop pods, or your stuck in a rhino for at best a turn 3/4 assault, or your footslogging. The drop pod is still the safest of those options.
lol You ask that and then detail three or four other ways Chaos does NOT have. In addition the the LR variants, drop pods, homing beacons, the LS Storm and jumping from Storm Ravens (I realize this is BA only), there are also jump packs. Standard marine chapters can actually attach jump packs to regular old assault marines and are NOT stuck with Warp Talons. You can say "But drop pods aren't all that great" all you want. They are MUCH better than not having any at all.
In addition to everything ZebioLizard2 mentions, drop pods would also allow Chaos dreads to be something OTHER than mobile cover/bullet magnets for other troops. That's one of the bigger issues that seems to be emerging with the Chaos book. Everything needs to be babysat by something else ...
Giving CSM an assault transport cheaper than the Land Raider would, in my opinion, fix most of the awkwardness with the codex. You'd think one of Chaos guys would have gotten the bright idea and lopped the top off of a rhino or something and used it as a nice open-topped transport at some point in the last 10,000 years. Something like an Ork Trukk would allow CSM to get their berserkers (and everything else that wants to be in CC) into close combat more reliably, and would make the army more flavorful as raiders and renegades. Just that one change would possibly make mono-Khorne armies viable, and give Chaos Space Marines something more to distinguish themselves from the other power armor codices other than more spikes.
Since GW seems to be pushing the fluff rules in one direction (close combat via challenges) and the crunch rules in another (no assaulting out of destroyed transports, no droppods for CSM, no assault transport other than a sub-par Land Raider, which is in itself generally an inefficient assault transport), giving CSM a more efficient assault transport would make many of these contradictions disappear. People enjoy close combat, so why should it be so hard to get into CC efficiently?
Tycho wrote: Standard marine chapters can actually attach jump packs to regular old assault marines and are NOT stuck with Warp Talons.
If only there were some kind of Jump Infantry that could take marks and 2 special weapons just like every other Assault Marine... We could name them after a word for predatory birds!
Way to miss the point. Completely. Loyalists can put the ju.p packs on REGULAR SCORING marines. Thats what i was getting at. Other wise yes, a completely over-costed highly limited unit like raptors is perfect. Do you have a news letter i could subscribe to?
EDIT:
And that's not even mentioning the fact that Craptors are competing for slots with three of the best units in the codex. Yeah, you're really on to something there ...
When the chaos codex dropped I was very disappointed. I didn't want it to be a cheese machine, I was happy with it to be mid tier if it was interesting.
There were so many little things that could have been done to show more thought had gone into it.
e.g. daemon allies don't scatter when DSing next to a unit with their icon, or add plus 1 to their reserve rolls when summoned by units with the favoured number of models. Someone above made a nice suggestion about CSM firing into combats with cultists. Stuff like that.
Everyone at my gaming club was like 'Oh no, this is a good thing. This is GW finally taking note and making the game balanced, you won't see any more grey knight style codices, no sir!', but as I prophesied, the new DA codex is another Imperial face-melter. Tacticals on a par cost wise with the CSM (remember everyone going mad about how cheap they were when the codex was released?), deathwing knights, banners, plasma everywhere, and more importantly to my mind, forces that play fluffily and interestingly.
Meanwhile the chaos codex is chock full of rubbish that smacks of being rushed/not having had any thought go in. The dark apostle could have been a lot more, and also has veterans of the long war, the benefits of which are already conferred by one of his other rules, the AOBF requiring MOK to take, which already confers one of the benefits of the axe, warp talons & mutilators, fiends which are really expensive for how fragile they are (who would dump 170+ points into an AV12 model?)
Tycho wrote: Way to miss the point. Completely. Loyalists can put the ju.p packs on REGULAR SCORING marines. Thats what i was getting at. Other wise yes, a completely over-costed highly limited unit like raptors is perfect. Do you have a news letter i could subscribe to?
It's almost as if everyone who isn't Blood Angels have the same problems that Chaos do, except Chaos gets to take meltaguns and marks whereas every other Assault Marine (except Interceptors who cost an arm and a leg) are rubbish beyond belief. Cherry-picking one thing out of one Codex and applying it to multiple Codices is intellectually dishonest at best and outright lying at worst.
Also, if scoring was what you were talking about you could have mentioned it instead of excepting everyone to understand that that was what your post was about without you saying anything about it.
It's almost as if everyone who isn't Blood Angels have the same problems that Chaos do, except Chaos gets to take meltaguns and marks whereas every other Assault Marine (except Interceptors who cost an arm and a leg) are rubbish beyond belief. Cherry-picking one thing out of one Codex and applying it to multiple Codices is intellectually dishonest at best and outright lying at worst.
Also, if scoring was what you were talking about you could have mentioned it instead of excepting everyone to understand that that was what your post was about without you saying anything about it.
Actually, if you go back and reread my posts you will see that:
A. I did NOT just cherry pick one unit. I mentioned multiple different types. The jump units got cherry picked BY YOU.
B. The first time I brought up the jump troops I specifically mentioned attaching them to regular Marines. Apologies for just implying that meant scoring.
Actually, if you go back and reread my posts you will see that:
A. I did NOT just cherry pick one unit. I mentioned multiple different types. The jump units got cherry picked BY YOU.
B. The first time I brought up the jump troops I specifically mentioned attaching them to regular Marines. Apologies for just implying that meant scoring.
lol You ask that and then detail three or four other ways Chaos does NOT have. In addition the the LR variants, drop pods, homing beacons, the LS Storm and jumping from Storm Ravens (I realize this is BA only), there are also jump packs. Standard marine chapters can actually attach jump packs to regular old assault marines and are NOT stuck with Warp Talons. You can say "But drop pods aren't all that great" all you want. They are MUCH better than not having any at all.
Doesn't mention scoring or attaching BA Assault Marines to anything. The "stuck with Warp Talons" bit implies that you didn't even consider that Raptors existed.
If you were referring to scoring, you'd still be cherry-picking, because there's only one Codex that gets to take them as troops, and that's BA. Everyone else is stuck in the same position as Chaos with Assault Marines, except Chaos can take 2 meltaguns and marks, whereas Assault Marines from other Codices are rubbish. Seriously, you get the second best Assault Marines in the game and you still complain because you're not as good as the guys whose entire modus operandi is built around Assault Marines.
Tycho wrote:Actually, if you go back and reread my posts you will see that:
A. I did NOT just cherry pick one unit. I mentioned multiple different types. The jump units got cherry picked BY YOU ( refers to AlmightyWalrus)
This is pretty interesting, considering this exact line:
Tycho wrote:Way to miss the point. Completely. Loyalists can put the ju.p packs on REGULAR SCORING marines. Thats what i was getting at.
Note that only BA can put Jump Packs on regular scoring marines. Making claim that "Loyalists can do it" is overly broad and implies that all loyalists or at least C:SM can do it, which is borderline dishonest.
Tycho wrote:B. The first time I brought up the jump troops I specifically mentioned attaching them to regular Marines. Apologies for just implying that meant scoring.
We can see your posts. It's pretty bad idea to try "explaining" them like this, when I can just quote them right here, showing exactly what you wrote. No, the underlined line speaks for itself,.
lol You ask that and then detail three or four other ways Chaos does NOT have. In addition the the LR variants, drop pods, homing beacons, the LS Storm and jumping from Storm Ravens (I realize this is BA only), there are also jump packs. Standard marine chapters can actually attach jump packs to regular old assault marines and are NOT stuck with Warp Talons. You can say "But drop pods aren't all that great" all you want. They are MUCH better than not having any at all.
Yes, I detailed what Chaos does not have, however for a CC army those just aren't great choices. Razorback? Can be imitated to an extent by loading extra weapons - and even shooty passengers - into a Chaos Rhino, and neither allows assaulting anyway. LS Storm? Yeah, because as I said those 5 scouts amount to absolutely nothing. LR variants wouldn't matter much because people still wouldn't use them much because of the price. Drop pods aren't bad at all, but it's just that they tend to be best used for shooty stuff, because then you actually at least might do a bit of damage before getting shot off the table. Mind you, I do think Chaos should have drop pods, because it doesn't make any sense not to have them - but they're not really a solution for fixing CC units which was the thing being addressed. AS a note I do have over 2000 points of Chaos myself, so it's not like I'm biased against them despite them only being my tertiary army.
And as for the whole jump infantry thing, yeah, only BA gets them as scoring/troops. I'd LOVE LOVE LOVE jump infantry as troops for my BT, not that it'll ever happen, and thus in fact I might just have to use my BT jump models as allied counts-as-BA to achieve that effect (though I also have 10 Death Company models I could use as regular BA jump infantry). Rules out IG allies in those instances but heck, can't have it all. Also, while locally everyone keeps telling me how crap jump marines (and well, just about everything else) are nowadays, but in my books they're kinda superior to the other available "transport" options given the low cost. Plus they just look plain cool, to boot (not that Rhinos and Land Raiders and such don't).
Note that only BA can put Jump Packs on regular scoring marines. Making claim that "Loyalists can do it" is overly broad and implies that all loyalists or at least C:SM can do it, which is borderline dishonest.
They are battle bros w/BA. Guess what that means? LOYALISTS CAN TAKE THEM AS TROOPS. Not sure what's so hard about that?
LS Storm? Yeah, because as I said those 5 scouts amount to absolutely nothing. LR variants wouldn't matter much because people still wouldn't use them much because of the price. Drop pods aren't bad at all, but it's just that they tend to be best used for shooty stuff, because then you actually at least might do a bit of damage before getting shot off the table. Mind you, I do think Chaos should have drop pods, because it doesn't make any sense not to have them - but they're not really a solution for fixing CC units which was the thing being addressed. AS a note I do have over 2000 points of Chaos myself, so it's not like I'm biased against them despite them only being my tertiary army.
Your points are well taken. I am looking at it in more of a broad sense. For example, take the LS - Chaos doesn't even have scouts so the LS with RAW wouldn't help them, but what is it really? It's a fast, cheap, open topped transport. The land raider variants? In my area many would actually use them. The standard Chaos LR really isn't worth it imo, but some of the variants start to be worth their points. It wouldn't take much to fix this book, but as it is, the Chaos 'dex just feels incomplete.
So Chaos has access to the two best fliers in the game then? After all, you can ally with IG, I don't see the problem.
Also, there's this small problem of having to take an HQ that most likely won't achieve anything useful in order to get access to said Assault Marines. It also prevents you from taking other allies, like the aforementioned IG. If anything, excepting the absence of ATSKNF, Chaos has no reason whatsoever to complain about Troops. Compared to all the loyalist Codices except GK (who aren't really a valid comparison) and SW (who are OP anyway) the normal CSM is in a pretty good place, as are Plague Marines, Noise Marines and Cultists (and yes, I know PMs and NMs aren't technically troops, but neither are Assault Marines outside of BA). Berzerkers suffer from the same problem as Templars currently do in that the only way to get into combat other than walking is by taking a Land Raider. This isn't unique to Chaos. The problem isn't directly that Chaos CC mobility sucks (although it's certainly far from stellar), it's that CC in general in 6th took a kick to the groin.
On an ending note, Chaos can infiltrate Khorne Berzerkers with Huron or Ahriman (fluff just whinced) and potentially get 60 Khorne Berzerkers in the enemy Deployment Zone turn 1. The closest loyalists come is infiltrating one unit with Shrike, or buying Drop Pods for 6 Squads of Death Company and Astorath, at which point you have 0 scoring units.
So Chaos has access to the two best fliers in the game then? After all, you can ally with IG, I don't see the problem.
So you call me dishonest. I show you how I was NOT dishonest, and THAT'S your answer!? You just change the point of focus? The main point (with that particular line of reasoning) was NOT that Chaos doesn't have fliers, nor was it that our Troops are bad (although they are far from what they probably should be), the point was the general lack of decent ways to get their CC troops into combat ... and you bring up fliers when I make a valid point?
Also, there's this small problem of having to take an HQ that most likely won't achieve anything useful in order to get access to said Assault Marines. It also prevents you from taking other allies, like the aforementioned IG. If anything, excepting the absence of ATSKNF, Chaos has no reason whatsoever to complain about Troops. Compared to all the loyalist Codices except GK (who aren't really a valid comparison) and SW (who are OP anyway) the normal CSM is in a pretty good place, as are Plague Marines, Noise Marines and Cultists (and yes, I know PMs and NMs aren't technically troops, but neither are Assault Marines outside of BA). Berzerkers suffer from the same problem as Templars currently do in that the only way to get into combat other than walking is by taking a Land Raider. This isn't unique to Chaos. The problem isn't directly that Chaos CC mobility sucks (although it's certainly far from stellar), it's that CC in general in 6th took a kick to the groin.
Agreed that the Allies system is a little clumsy. Point is it's still an option. Bringing Templars into the argument only reinforces just how weak the Chaos book really is. A brand new book has the same issue as one that was written how long ago? Agreed CC in general took a hit in 6th for everyone. No argument there at all. IMO you are wrong however about the Chaos CC mobility. It is indeed sub-par at best.
Your point about Ahriman and Huron? When you respond with "the closest Loyalists come is ... or .... or ..." it is plainly evident that my point about lack of CC mobility when compared to other MEQs is valid.
orz192 wrote: Well apparently Phil Kelly can make mistakes too.
Yup. I'm withholding personal judgement because I don't know the overall conditions (deadlines, impositions from the top, poor editing input, etc). I think he may still put out good books.
It's a rare thing for me to say this, but I'd have done better. Give me couple of friends from my club, an office with a gaming table and proxies for models, three weeks and a supply of pizza and coffee, and we'd come up with something more versatile, fluffier and with more viable options in the long term.
So Chaos has access to the two best fliers in the game then? After all, you can ally with IG, I don't see the problem.
So you call me dishonest. I show you how I was NOT dishonest, and THAT'S your answer!?
You didn't say a word about allies until after I called you out. That's blatant lying, sorry mate. Even if you didn't it's dishonest, seeing as you still have to pay an HQ tax.
I only used Templars as an example because they're (supposed to be) the most melee-centric of the loyalists. All the loyalists, barring Blood Angels, have the same issues getting Assault units into combat.
You didn't say a word about allies until after I called you out.
Yeah, figured it was kind of obvious. Most people seem to have gotten that. Sorry you missed it.
Even if you didn't it's dishonest, seeing as you still have to pay an HQ tax
There is an HQ tax. It changes my point ... not at all actually.
I only used Templars as an example because they're (supposed to be) the most melee-centric of the loyalists. All the loyalists, barring Blood Angels, have the same issues getting Assault units into combat.
No, don't go back on that now. It was a perfect example. You're right. Outside of BA they ARE suppose to be the most melee-centric. And they have the EXACT same issue Chaos has. Only the Templar codex is YEARS (don't recall how old actually) older. That is an unacceptable condition.
You didn't say a word about allies until after I called you out.
Yeah, figured it was kind of obvious. Most people seem to have gotten that. Sorry you missed it.
If you knew you didn't say something, why did you insist you did?
Even if you didn't it's dishonest, seeing as you still have to pay an HQ tax
There is an HQ tax. It changes my point ... not at all actually.
Claiming that all loyalists can take Assault Marines as troops without mentioning the fact that you have to ally them in is being dishonest, because you're leaving part of the information out.
Space Wolves don't exactly have a lot of good ways to get Grey Hunters into combat either. Sure, they have Thunderwolves, whereas Chaos has Spawn, Bikers and Raptors. No one other than BA have good ways to get assault Troops Choices into combat.
If you knew you didn't say something, why did you insist you did?
Not sure what you mean by that. I meant that I thought the Allies thing was obvious and didn't NEED pointed out.
Space Wolves don't exactly have a lot of good ways to get Grey Hunters into combat either. Sure, they have Thunderwolves, whereas Chaos has Spawn, Bikers and Raptors. No one other than BA have good ways to get assault Troops Choices into combat.
lol! Yeah, cause SW need help with ANYTHING. So your Templar comparison back-fired and now you're trying to compare the Chaos 'dex to one that is blatantly OP and doesn't even need what Chaos is lacking. I'm not sure why you're even arguing the point anymore unless it's just arguing for the sake of arguing. Anyway, it's been great but I think we're done here.
-Fleshmetal: Merita a whole entry in the wargear section. Exactly one unit can take it and comes with it standard. It would cost a line of text and some ricing to let Chaos Lords take it (make your Iron Warriors big baddie) and allow tons of fun conversions beyind termi armor.
The rest of your post is valid, but there's three units with it (Warp smith, Obliterators, Mutilators)
Course that seems to be another issue, Hades autocannon is only on two things and it's standard, and cannot be taken on anything else, and it's the new vehicles (Heldrake, Forgefiend) , Bale flamer is only on ONE (Heldrake), and so is Ectoplasm (Forgefiend), as well as the melta cutters (Maulerfiend)
Well spotted, but to be fair I don't quite get the fleshmetal change for Oblits and Mutilators since they retain the 2+/5+ combo. Maybe it's just a mechanical trick to explain why they have Slow and Purposeful instead of Relentless.
But yes, it's odd. Why no Predator with Hades sponsons, or giving a Hades option to oblits instead of the assault Cannon (though it was nice to include the AC, mind). If they really are so keen on not making CSM be just spiky marines, different weapons lots of units can take go a looong way.
Artificer armor is a lot less common now. Only techmarines, Azrael, and Ezekiel have it in the DA book. Noone in the CSM codex has it.
Terminator armor is the only way to give your non-named characters a 2+ armor save. Terminator armor has a drawback by not being able to sweep, or ride in rhinos.
But there is a lot of non-termi 2+ in books that will be around for a looong time. Sanguinary Guard (BA in general, in fact), Sempiternal weave on lords a plenty in the Necron book (Who are T5 and can pop back up, mind). It's still a factor and will be for the lion's share of 6Th Ed's run.
Okay Sanguinary guard have no invulnerable. Necron lords are good but hardly overpowered all gw needs to do to fix them is take away mss.
So Chaos has access to the two best fliers in the game then? After all, you can ally with IG, I don't see the problem.
So you call me dishonest. I show you how I was NOT dishonest, and THAT'S your answer!?
You didn't say a word about allies until after I called you out. That's blatant lying, sorry mate. Even if you didn't it's dishonest, seeing as you still have to pay an HQ tax.
I only used Templars as an example because they're (supposed to be) the most melee-centric of the loyalists. All the loyalists, barring Blood Angels, have the same issues getting Assault units into combat.
Exactly Deathwing builds have to DS in to get close take a 250 pt movement tax or walk across. Melee is far harder to achieve in 6th that it has ever been. Also i wish taking a capain with a jumppack made assault marines troops.
Tycho wrote: Standard marine chapters can actually attach jump packs to regular old assault marines and are NOT stuck with Warp Talons.
Implying that there's no way to take anything other than Warp Talons. Dishonest.
Tycho wrote: Standard marine chapters can actually attach jump packs to regular old assault marines and are NOT stuck with Warp Talons.
Making a statement that makes no sense; the entire point of Assault Marines is that they come with Jump Packs, just like Raptors. You don't attach jump packs to anything. Since this is an option Chaos has as well, this statement is pointless.
B. The first time I brought up the jump troops I specifically mentioned attaching them to regular Marines. Apologies for just implying that meant scoring.
Claiming you said something you didn't AKA lying. Which I and another poster pointed out once already.
Your point about Ahriman and Huron? When you respond with "the closest Loyalists come is ... or .... or ..." it is plainly evident that my point about lack of CC mobility when compared to other MEQs is valid.
Making a point about how Chaos has an alternative that is superior to the loyalist counterpart is evidence that it's somehow worse? Wut?
lol! Yeah, cause SW need help with ANYTHING. So your Templar comparison back-fired and now you're trying to compare the Chaos 'dex to one that is blatantly OP and doesn't even need what Chaos is lacking. I'm not sure why you're even arguing the point anymore unless it's just arguing for the sake of arguing. Anyway, it's been great but I think we're done here.
Claiming that a Codex does not need issues adressed because it's more powerful than your own is pretty nonsensical. Space Wolves, Vanilla Marines and Black Templars DON'T have good ways for their CC Troops (Space Marines don't even have any CC Troops outside melee scouts and, yeah...) to get into combat outside of Land Raiders, just as Chaos don't. Blood Angels have exactly one good way, which is to jump pack across the board. Putting stuff in a Stormraven is a waste.
And if loyalists all count as having scoring Assault Marines then Chaos counts as having Daemons. Screamers and Flamers are pretty good, no?
orz192 wrote: Well apparently Phil Kelly can make mistakes too.
Yup. I'm withholding personal judgement because I don't know the overall conditions (deadlines, impositions from the top, poor editing input, etc). I think he may still put out good books.
It's a rare thing for me to say this, but I'd have done better. Give me couple of friends from my club, an office with a gaming table and proxies for models, three weeks and a supply of pizza and coffee, and we'd come up with something more versatile, fluffier and with more viable options in the long term.
I would actually like to know what are the traditional procedures that GW employees and writers follow when they make rulebooks and codices, and if we found out, maybe we could humbly suggest things that would add balance maybe. If e figured out what goes into making a codex, then possibilities open up.
AlmightyWalrus wrote:Space Wolves don't exactly have a lot of good ways to get Grey Hunters into combat either. Sure, they have Thunderwolves, whereas Chaos has Spawn, Bikers and Raptors. No one other than BA have good ways to get assault Troops Choices into combat.
From all the posts on this topic, universally SMs(chaos and all flavors of loyalist) don't have good methods to get their CC specialists into combat that you guys prefer, and ork trukks are only MARGINALLY better than rhinos because it has assault vehicle rules, other than that is is much worse that rhinos(AV10 around, Open-topped w/ no self repair option or negate shaken/stunned). Just stick to your rhinos and hug cover along the board and stop belly-aching about how some armies are better than other regarding transports.
Claiming that a Codex does not need issues adressed because it's more powerful than your own is pretty nonsensical. Space Wolves, Vanilla Marines and Black Templars DON'T have good ways for their CC Troops (Space Marines don't even have any CC Troops outside melee scouts and, yeah...) to get into combat outside of Land Raiders, just as Chaos don't. Blood Angels have exactly one good way, which is to jump pack across the board. Putting stuff in a Stormraven is a waste.
Space wolves only major CC troops that need to get into combat are the thunderwolves, everything else is strong enough at shooting that it's best to just shoot and wait for them to attack you, not to mention C:SM has Assault Terminators. They also have Honor guard, and Command squads as well, black templars are an outdated fourth edition, yet it still has the same, if not more options as chaos when it comes to getting closer even though they have the actual good land raiders.
Note that only BA can put Jump Packs on regular scoring marines. Making claim that "Loyalists can do it" is overly broad and implies that all loyalists or at least C:SM can do it, which is borderline dishonest.
They are battle bros w/BA. Guess what that means? LOYALISTS CAN TAKE THEM AS TROOPS. Not sure what's so hard about that?
Now this argument isn't even borderline, it is just plain dishonest. And being battle bros is meaningless for this argument, as even Allies of convenience score. This means that according to Tycho, even Eldar, IG and Tau can put jump packs on "regular, scoring marines".
Besides, by this standard CSM are horribly OP, as it has (via allies, bb or convenience) to all broken units in the game: Flamers, Screamers, Vendettas, Night Scythes etc. But this is the standard Tycho judges Loyalists, so shouldn't it be used to judge CSM also?
No, this is just desperate act from Tycho to try explain his way around the fact that he has been dishonest in this discussion, claiming things that are not true. Problem is that he just keeps digging himself deeper in the pit. Anyone can see that suddenly changing argument from "Loyalists can put Jump packs on regular scoring marines" to "Loylists can take allies that can put Jump Packs to regular scoring marines" is basically lying. And those two arguments are very, very different. And we haven't even gone to the fact that allies are not what I'd consider "regular" part of the main codex.
Another example what this Tycho standard is claim like "IG can give ATKSNF on their regular scoring guardsmen".
Note that only BA can put Jump Packs on regular scoring marines. Making claim that "Loyalists can do it" is overly broad and implies that all loyalists or at least C:SM can do it, which is borderline dishonest.
They are battle bros w/BA. Guess what that means? LOYALISTS CAN TAKE THEM AS TROOPS. Not sure what's so hard about that?
Now this argument isn't even borderline, it is just plain dishonest. And being battle bros is meaningless for this argument, as even Allies of convenience score. This means that according to Tycho, even Eldar, IG and Tau can put jump packs on "regular, scoring marines".
Besides, by this standard CSM are horribly OP, as it has (via allies, bb or convenience) to all broken units in the game: Flamers, Screamers, Vendettas, Night Scythes etc. But this is the standard Tycho judges Loyalists, so shouldn't it be used to judge CSM also?
No, this is just desperate act from Tycho to try explain his way around the fact that he has been dishonest in this discussion, claiming things that are not true. Problem is that he just keeps digging himself deeper in the pit. Anyone can see that suddenly changing argument from "Loyalists can put Jump packs on regular scoring marines" to "Loylists can take allies that can put Jump Packs to regular scoring marines" is basically lying. And those two arguments are very, very different. And we haven't even gone to the fact that allies are not what I'd consider "regular" part of the main codex.
Another example what this Tycho standard is claim like "IG can give ATKSNF on their regular scoring guardsmen".
Necrons don't count for it as the Croissont list is about putting 6+ flyers out, nobody cares if your maxed out at 3 (two NS, one doom), you can only take one flamer and screamer, while the broken is a full 27 models. Vendetta's are the only one that is close and it's because people put out three, cheaply costed ones in a very good army.
His argument isn't very good mind you so I'm not going to defend it, but that isn't why those units are broken.
Claiming that a Codex does not need issues adressed because it's more powerful than your own is pretty nonsensical. Space Wolves, Vanilla Marines and Black Templars DON'T have good ways for their CC Troops (Space Marines don't even have any CC Troops outside melee scouts and, yeah...) to get into combat outside of Land Raiders, just as Chaos don't. Blood Angels have exactly one good way, which is to jump pack across the board. Putting stuff in a Stormraven is a waste.
Space wolves only major CC troops that need to get into combat are the thunderwolves, everything else is strong enough at shooting that it's best to just shoot and wait for them to attack you, not to mention C:SM has Assault Terminators. They also have Honor guard, and Command squads as well, black templars are an outdated fourth edition, yet it still has the same, if not more options as chaos when it comes to getting closer even though they have the actual good land raiders.
CC Troops with a capital T, as in Troops choices that are CC-centric. Terminators are even harder to get into CC, whereas Honour Guard and Command Squads (who shouldn't ever be run as a CC unit anyway) have the same problems as everyone else.
ace101 wrote: Just stick to your rhinos and hug cover along the board and stop belly-aching about how some armies are better than other regarding transports.
TBH it's not originally a complaint about bad transports, but a complaint about how hard it is to get into CC before the game's more or less over. Shooting is just so much more powerful now, on top of getting an extra turn of shooting before assaults reliably starts to happen.
TBH it's not originally a complaint about bad transports, but a complaint about how hard it is to get into CC before the game's more or less over. Shooting is just so much more powerful now, on top of getting an extra turn of shooting before assaults reliably starts to happen.
well, if you had points and were ballsy enough, you could try 5 vanguards w/ assault packs assaulting the turn they deep strike, but then you got your scatter, but wait, DPs can take locator beacons, hmmm.....
So codex bashing aside I have seen both books make very good lists. My issue is trying to be fluffy within the confines of the codex, I have seen amazing nurgle and slaanesh lists, khorne seems to be ok and thousand sons is a bit crappy. DA has issues being deathwing or ravenwing as a whole because you have to pick a bit of everything to make a good list.
Cultists are boring and cheap, which is a pity since they could have been so much fun. They could have been used for sacrifices by psykers and Apostles for re-rolls, or permit chaos marines to shoot at enemies in melee with a cultist mob because they don’t care about these dregs…but not.
Oooooo I like that idea! Hmmm... A Sorceror in a unit of Chaos Cultists may sacrifice Cultists to aid his Psychic Powers. Each sacrificed Cultist results in -1 to the Ld check. Can be done AFTER rolling. Pretty similar idea for Apostle...
Cultists are boring and cheap, which is a pity since they could have been so much fun. They could have been used for sacrifices by psykers and Apostles for re-rolls, or permit chaos marines to shoot at enemies in melee with a cultist mob because they don’t care about these dregs…but not.
Oooooo I like that idea! Hmmm... A Sorceror in a unit of Chaos Cultists may sacrifice Cultists to aid his Psychic Powers. Each sacrificed Cultist results in -1 to the Ld check. Can be done AFTER rolling. Pretty similar idea for Apostle...
Except that the sorcerer is already LD10, which is pretty much the max. I'd use it as a warp generator. Able to gain more Warp Tokens.
Except that the sorcerer is already LD10, which is pretty much the max. I'd use it as a warp generator. Able to gain more Warp Tokens.
Yeah, ability to get more Warp Charge would work, but only for Maledictions and Blessings.
I wasn't talking about Ld being modified with Sacrifices though. The idea was more, kill one guy to get an eleven/fail to a ten/pass or kill two guys to change a perils to a pass. Especially useful if around Fiends who reduce Ld or similar.
As a chaos Player i really do not want to shoot for a cheesy list that is the only list that will keep you in league with other players, if a bunch of actual die-hard Chaos players wrote at least some of the options you could take as a chaos army, it would make a significant difference. My main concern in the chaos space marine codex is that it has no flavor. There are 9 legions that specialize in something and even those who have been around for ages don't get any fun options for their army? let's say a night lords army had all fast attack as troops, what a difference maker (that would be seriously absurd, but really that's pretty much what goes on in the fluff). Heck iron warriors could take all heavy support 10 points less if fielding a warpsmith, those points add up! Maybe for the world eaters you can consolidate into another assault after you made one already, wow! I am not going to go through all the legions but rules with more flavor would certainly draw more players into playing 
.
One of each would've been nice.
LOVE LOVE LOVE 
