So I was looking around and did not see anyone talk about this topic. Seeing how Star Wars evolved I was wondering if Warhammer 40k could do the same and if so why it hasn't happen already. Its seems that there is plenty of story content and with new graphic technology Warhammer 40k could make some ground breaking movies, at least its better then all these throw backs and horrible movies coming out today.
Pure CGI movies are extremely expensive, especially to make one that looks like a live action. The other trouble is figuring out what to do for the movies. Taking BL books, you'd have hundreds if not thousands of hours of movies, where do you start to actually get people bought in?
This could technically happen, but it's unlikely. Star Wars succeeded as a pop culture phenomenon, with revolutionary visuals and almost a complete reinvention of a genre. No 'Sci-fi Lite' movies existed at the time, excluding low-budget serials from the early days of cinema. The only sci-fi in existence was hard political commentary and speculative fiction, at least for the most part.
Star Wars broke a huge amount of ground by making Science Fiction accessible to everyone, with a fairly simple but well-written and acted plot, new concepts, and a fun movie that didn't require a lot of thought. Nothing like it had ever come before, and so it took the world by storm with it's innovation and unique style. Everything since then has been succesful mainly through inertia. There is a lot of bad Star Wars. There is a lot of good Star Wars. But the bad can be ignored because of it's mere weight as a cultural icon, and it has enough social impact and enough people know about it to keep it running for years or even decades after the last good piece of SW fiction is written.
40k doesn't have that. Dune came out half a century ago. Nobody will be taken by surprise by 40k, any more than they will be caught off guard by a turtle. Regardless of quality, 40k simply doesn't have the shock or capability to build up the social inertia to become a widespread phenomenon like Star Wars.
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I've thought way too much about this.
Waaaghpower wrote: This could technically happen, but it's unlikely. Star Wars succeeded as a pop culture phenomenon, with revolutionary visuals and almost a complete reinvention of a genre. No 'Sci-fi Lite' movies existed at the time, excluding low-budget serials from the early days of cinema. The only sci-fi in existence was hard political commentary and speculative fiction, at least for the most part. Star Wars broke a huge amount of ground by making Science Fiction accessible to everyone, with a fairly simple but well-written and acted plot, new concepts, and a fun movie that didn't require a lot of thought. Nothing like it had ever come before, and so it took the world by storm with it's innovation and unique style. Everything since then has been succesful mainly through inertia. There is a lot of bad Star Wars. There is a lot of good Star Wars. But the bad can be ignored because of it's mere weight as a cultural icon, and it has enough social impact and enough people know about it to keep it running for years or even decades after the last good piece of SW fiction is written.
40k doesn't have that. Dune came out half a century ago. Nobody will be taken by surprise by 40k, any more than they will be caught off guard by a turtle. Regardless of quality, 40k simply doesn't have the shock or capability to build up the social inertia to become a widespread phenomenon like Star Wars.
Automatically Appended Next Post: ... I've thought way too much about this.
Thats the best thing about starwars. I watched the originals not too long ago because I know from what family have said and so on how much of a huge thing it was. Kids used to cheer and scream when the opening scene started and theaters where packed as people just couldn't get enough.
40K doesnt have that shock value like starwars. The only thing it has going for it is the dark tones which is popular today. If a major 40k film was made today it will be a flop. It doesnt quite have the right background for movies.
It doesn't have the same mass appeal as Star Wars, and to dilute it to the level where it would would just rip the heart right out of 40k. There's also no universally appealing entry point into the universe like the Star Wars films, where people of any age or gender can enjoy them.
Waaaghpower wrote: This could technically happen, but it's unlikely. Star Wars succeeded as a pop culture phenomenon, with revolutionary visuals and almost a complete reinvention of a genre. No 'Sci-fi Lite' movies existed at the time, excluding low-budget serials from the early days of cinema. The only sci-fi in existence was hard political commentary and speculative fiction, at least for the most part.
Star Wars broke a huge amount of ground by making Science Fiction accessible to everyone, with a fairly simple but well-written and acted plot, new concepts, and a fun movie that didn't require a lot of thought. Nothing like it had ever come before, and so it took the world by storm with it's innovation and unique style. Everything since then has been succesful mainly through inertia. There is a lot of bad Star Wars. There is a lot of good Star Wars. But the bad can be ignored because of it's mere weight as a cultural icon, and it has enough social impact and enough people know about it to keep it running for years or even decades after the last good piece of SW fiction is written.
40k doesn't have that. Dune came out half a century ago. Nobody will be taken by surprise by 40k, any more than they will be caught off guard by a turtle. Regardless of quality, 40k simply doesn't have the shock or capability to build up the social inertia to become a widespread phenomenon like Star Wars.
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I've thought way too much about this.
Game of Khornes
Band of berzerkers
Focused on Imperial guard, it could make a niche market grim, gory with undertones of intolerance "goverment control" religious fanaticism, it has the potential to reach a wider auidience but GW would never loosen the reigns to allow that to happen.
I'm not a massive fan of the Star Wars films. The flicks seem better in my head than when I sit and watch one. I love the universe they have created though. Weird, eh?!
That being said, no chance could 40k ever be that big.
I'd love to see AMC or HBO do some 40k stuff though. It wouldn't have to be Titan Legions scale, but maybe a Guard (sorry, Milly) squad holding out against some nids.
Gw won't allow the studios free reign to make what they want and for good reason, but it means the yanks have no interest because they can't make Johnny depp into a space marine.
Grimdark sells well in games but not so well in big budget action movies.
Star Wars, as it stands today, relies mostly on a mixture of nostalgia, myth, and mainstream identification with geek culture. It has become a rite of passage of sorts where, since 1977, each generation introduces the following to it, and no franchise, no matter how hard they try, can replicate that.
If 40k is going to the screens, they'd better avoid taking the Star Wars "simple fun for all the family" route, specially when the strenghts of the story lie in its cynicism, dark sense of humor, and a baroqueness that goes beyond the purely visual.
I don't think it would really work as a movie. You see Star Wars had one major plot that had a start a middle and an end. Then the universe just expanded around that main event, like books, comic books, video games, the prequel movies etc. The problem with 40k is that there is no "central storyline" Sure their are tons of big events but if you made a direct comparison, the 40k timeline only goes up to about the same plot advancement as just after the battle of Hoth in Empire. In that, the "good" guys have just been struck a major blow (eye of terror campaign) we lack a "happy ending" where Abaddon is killed and Chaos defeated.
True you could use any number of enclosed story lines like the Nightlords Trilogy or Eisenhorn or any of the many plot lines. The problem is that almost all 40k books assume the reader is in some way familiar with the background, so it's very difficult to do like a total introduction without ruining the story.
The Horus Heresy doesn't work because as with most prequels, a lot of the stories work on irony or foreshadowing, assuming that the reader knows what the 40k world will end up like. Plus it is wayyyyy too big to ever be a reality. It took nearly 10 years to turn the 7 Harry Potter books into a movie. The HH series is probably going to run into the region of 35/40 novels before it's done, if it's ever done.
I think the best way to make 40k into a popular media would be like an animated tv series. Something like Dragon Ball Z, where you have these huge storylines that go on for weeks and weeks and then when one "saga" is over, move onto the next one. But even that would be a massive stretch. To be honest I think we should be greatful that we are staying as a niche, where all the wacky hobby goings on can continue and not have to conform to whatever would draw in the the greater public.
I mean look at a Hollywood execs mind if this was proposed to them:
"So the main character is a 7 foot tall killing machine in power armour? Awesome, who's his love interest? Oh what wait...they're A sexual...mmm can't he have a girlfriend? What about one of those Sisters of Battle? Yeah that works, Ok So Captain Bloggs falls in love with Sister Needsrescuing and they're fighting these evil superhumans for the fate of the galaxy and what's that?...The bad guys win? The good guys are actually a dictatorship too? No we can't have that. Ok so change it so the Space Marine saves the girl, kills the big bad, delivers a cheeseball quotable phrase, Maybe he makes fun of the bad guy's lack of arms...I don't know, I'm not the writer, we're just shooting ideas. And they all live happily ever after. Huh? Grimdark, nah audiences won't like that, Oh but we do like the fact that you already jacked up the prices on the merch to promote the movie...oh those are the regular prices? Wow, how is this even a thing?"
I mean look at a Hollywood execs mind if this was proposed to them:
"So the main character is a 7 foot tall killing machine in power armour? Awesome, who's his love interest? Oh what wait...they're A sexual...mmm can't he have a girlfriend? What about one of those Sisters of Battle? Yeah that works, Ok So Captain Bloggs falls in love with Sister Needsrescuing and they're fighting these evil superhumans for the fate of the galaxy and what's that?...The bad guys win? The good guys are actually a dictatorship too? No we can't have that. Ok so change it so the Space Marine saves the girl, kills the big bad, delivers a cheeseball quotable phrase, Maybe he makes fun of the bad guy's lack of arms...I don't know, I'm not the writer, we're just shooting ideas. And they all live happily ever after. Huh? Grimdark, nah audiences won't like that, Oh but we do like the fact that you already jacked up the prices on the merch to promote the movie...oh those are the regular prices? Wow, how is this even a thing?"
Oddly enough, a lot of these themes are there in the Clone Wars CGI cartoon series. The good guys are most definitely a dictatorship, and it's shown that a lot of folks aren't happy under them. While Anakin has a love interest, most of the heroes can not or do not have them. The audience isn't bombarded with cheesy one liners, and we all know that this story doesn't end happily for everyone involved, even if this arc might. I'm not saying a 40k animated series would have the same appeal or audience as a Star Wars one, but it can be done.
I mean look at a Hollywood execs mind if this was proposed to them:
"So the main character is a 7 foot tall killing machine in power armour? Awesome, who's his love interest? Oh what wait...they're A sexual...mmm can't he have a girlfriend? What about one of those Sisters of Battle? Yeah that works, Ok So Captain Bloggs falls in love with Sister Needsrescuing and they're fighting these evil superhumans for the fate of the galaxy and what's that?...The bad guys win? The good guys are actually a dictatorship too? No we can't have that. Ok so change it so the Space Marine saves the girl, kills the big bad, delivers a cheeseball quotable phrase, Maybe he makes fun of the bad guy's lack of arms...I don't know, I'm not the writer, we're just shooting ideas. And they all live happily ever after. Huh? Grimdark, nah audiences won't like that, Oh but we do like the fact that you already jacked up the prices on the merch to promote the movie...oh those are the regular prices? Wow, how is this even a thing?"
Oddly enough, a lot of these themes are there in the Clone Wars CGI cartoon series. The good guys are most definitely a dictatorship, and it's shown that a lot of folks aren't happy under them. While Anakin has a love interest, most of the heroes can not or do not have them. The audience isn't bombarded with cheesy one liners, and we all know that this story doesn't end happily for everyone involved, even if this arc might. I'm not saying a 40k animated series would have the same appeal or audience as a Star Wars one, but it can be done.
Exactly my point; it could work as an animated tv show but not as a Hollywood Blockbuster. Those guys are not about taking risks and a big budget 40k movie would be a huge gamble. Even the name "Warhammer 40,000" would put off most of the non fanbase.
Simply put, NO. Most successful movies and shows are based around characters. Something 40k really lacks (you could try to do specific BL novels as a move or something.) The larger issue though is that 40k is a setting....not a story.
You would need to build a story around characters, and honestly space marines are not a great place for deep characters. SO you probably end up tiny window into a small part of the world.
I actually think an Inquisition (Dark Heresy) or Rouge Trader themed show in the setting has more possibilty of success than one based in the formal 40k setting. But even that being successful is a stretch.
Waaaghpower wrote: This could technically happen, but it's unlikely. Star Wars succeeded as a pop culture phenomenon, with revolutionary visuals and almost a complete reinvention of a genre. No 'Sci-fi Lite' movies existed at the time, excluding low-budget serials from the early days of cinema. The only sci-fi in existence was hard political commentary and speculative fiction, at least for the most part.
Star Wars broke a huge amount of ground by making Science Fiction accessible to everyone, with a fairly simple but well-written and acted plot, new concepts, and a fun movie that didn't require a lot of thought. Nothing like it had ever come before, and so it took the world by storm with it's innovation and unique style. Everything since then has been succesful mainly through inertia. There is a lot of bad Star Wars. There is a lot of good Star Wars. But the bad can be ignored because of it's mere weight as a cultural icon, and it has enough social impact and enough people know about it to keep it running for years or even decades after the last good piece of SW fiction is written.
40k doesn't have that. Dune came out half a century ago. Nobody will be taken by surprise by 40k, any more than they will be caught off guard by a turtle. Regardless of quality, 40k simply doesn't have the shock or capability to build up the social inertia to become a widespread phenomenon like Star Wars.
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I've thought way too much about this.
Excellent analysis. Don't be ashamed of your ability to think.
The Gaunt's Ghosts books would probably be the most adaptation-friendly material, seeing as they actually have identifiable, even sympathetic characters that an audience can relate to - but it achieves that mostly by keeping the more iconic elements of the setting - i.e. the Space Marines - more or less out of the action.
Regardless of that though, I think it would be a huge mistake for GW to put their flagship IP under the glare of the mainstream media spotlight that a movie or major series would attract. The BL consistently has a level of violence that makes Game of Thrones look like The Chronicles of Narnia, and that's not going to sell well to the under-18 audience, or more precisely, to their parents.
That's not even getting into the religious fundamentalism, the absolute xenophobia and the state mandated genocide of any alien race unfortunate enough to cross the path of the Imperium of Man...
Absolutely not. Star Wars DOES sync up with kids very well. With all the grim darkness of 40k, I dont think many parents would want to see young kids involved in all that (I can argue that the games are abstract as they are just models) on the TV or movie screens. Not only that, Star Wars is pretty universally liked. I say that hating Episodes 1-3 btw. As most adults do.
40kdef fills a slot, but it couldnt even touch Transformers let alone Star Wars.
Star Wars has a lot of things going for it that 40k does not and likely will not ever have. As others have pointed out Star Wars is a story, one which taps into our collective conscience via the monomyth and the "Hero With a Thousand Faces", something which 40K hasn't/doesn't do and cannot do, because to do so would basically amount to a re-write of the entire canon which would have to functionally change what 40k is at the essence of its core.
From that central mythological narrative, it expanded out to create an entire mythos, one that is a coherent, consistent, and centralized canon (most of the non-canonical elements of the setting were pared out long, long ago before it could get out of hand and dilute the setting), something which, again, 40K does not have (constant retcons, contradictions, and conflicts abound).
This is, more than anything else, where Star Wars mass market appeal stems from, its accessible, its familiar, its family friendly, but its also new, its larger than life, and its transcendent.
The one thing that 40k and Star Wars do share, however, is that they are both Space Opera (rather than true sci-fi), just the basis for 40k is a much darker, sinister, and more tragic setting.
No. For the same reason as to why Judge Dredd, Lexx and anything by Garth Ennis isn't as widespread - too niche, and too dark.
I mean, Wh40k is a pretty harsh, brutal and depressing setting. It would be like a Lars von Trier film, except with things actually happening.
Speaking of Lexx; That show is, imo, the closest thing we currently have to a Wh40k TV show - it has many of the same themes as well as a dark sense of humor.
40k as a movie could work but we would need to cheat a little and focus on a small bit and expand out as the movie or series progresses.
Following the Eisenhorn books would be perfect (agreed, Eldarain), it is written in such a way anyone not familiar with 40k can get into it (lots of action too).
Grimdark is reasonably accepted from Aliens, to Riddick, Bladerunner, starship troopers and many more.
Ender's Game shows you can have big epic events with a focus on a small group.
A good story that would be do-able prop/CGI wise and reasonable acceptance of the genre is there.
The problem: GW is company about selling collectable models, they will require all kinds of representations of their product throughout the movie.
They will meddle in that regard where I would expect the movie would appear strange trying to twist it to their needs (rather than make a new system/model range so "you too can create your favorite moments from the movie!!" tm).
The rumors I keep hearing of some new Inquisitor warband type game would be a great opportunity to show it could be the next Star Wars or Star Trek they just need to make it appear "special" and not a series of science fiction tropes all strung together.
Grimdark is reasonably accepted from Aliens, to Riddick, Bladerunner, starship troopers and many more.
Ender's Game shows you can have big epic events with a focus on a small group.
None of which have anywhere near the appeal and success and largess of Star Wars.
In a short word: no. Many have said why and I agree with them. Given the absolute crap that was Ultramarines: a Warhammer 40k movie, I just don't see a good movie being made. The movie was almost universally reviled and it make it tough to pitch a big budget needed to do a 40K movie properly. Actors are another problem as "meatheads who kill stuff in power armor" is best left to video games. And Sylvester Stallone.
Video games on the other hand have the opportunity to be amazing. Space Marine was incredible for what it was. Titus was a character you could like. The game was visceral and shooty, and in my opinion the best representation of 40K thus far. Sadly THQ closed and the trilogy was never made, but it was a big step in the right direction. Video Games are where 40K could explode, but never film.
No, the majority of people wouldn't embrace the grimdark themes of 40k.
That's not to say that a good character driven movie or series could work. Animated would probably be better and could showcase the characters and models.
I probably wouldn't use Space Marines as the main characters though... Unless for the romance side of things you want to make them gay... or possibly have a love interest that existed for a marine before they were turned into a Space Marine.
gravitywell wrote: No, the majority of people wouldn't embrace the grimdark themes of 40k.
That's not to say that a good character driven movie or series could work. Animated would probably be better and could showcase the characters and models.
I probably wouldn't use Space Marines as the main characters though... Unless for the romance side of things you want to make them gay... or possibly have a love interest that existed for a marine before they were turned into a Space Marine.
Too dark to work out unless you can edit the plot to embrace the dark setting on film, even when you win in 40k the cost is massive. And so big your one victory is buta blip in the universe.
+ star wars was backed by a cult film of massive fame, and huge exposure globally. It could have been a flop, but the fates decided to be generous
In short, no. I agree with pretty much everything that's been said in this thread; 40k is too grimdark and niche (nerdy) to have mainstream appeal in the same way as Star Wars.
The best way for 40k to gain popularity is probably not through movies. I remember shortly after Space Marine came out there was something of a buzz about it and people that hadn't ever heard of 40k before expressed interest in the universe. So maybe video games are best.
A television series of either Gaunts Ghosts or Eisenhorn might help, but if it's anything like the Ultramarine "movie" maybe not. I say Gaunts Ghosts or Eisenhorn because those are the only 40k novels I've read with any character development. Although, a television series doesn't need good characters or acting in order to be popular, the Walking Dead comes to mind. 40k has ample violence/gore appeal, and that's probably enough to make people wanna watch it.
Ender's Game shows you can have big epic events with a focus on a small group.
Ender's Game was also a mediocre and flimsy adaption that lacked the soul and wit of the iriginal, watering it down horribly. It wasn't an awful movie, but as an adaption it was really disappointing.
Predicting what will and will not be a hit is a very difficult if not nearly impossible task and asking this kind of question is ultimately rather futile due to the number of variables involved and the lack of co-
*Sees people talking in absolutes as if they knew humanity inside out*
KorPhaeron77 wrote: I mean look at a Hollywood execs mind if this was proposed to them...
And that's exactly why Star Wars succeeded. Lucas did the exact opposite of what Hollywood execs (who at the time though there was no point in a "big" science fiction movie) wanted. Of course, he had to go indie to do that. He was forced to seek alternate sources for funding (inventing merchandising in the process), to break a couple conventions and moviemaking practises that were "word of God" in the film industry of the 1970s and to take more than a few personal risks.
Problem is, Star Wars has become the paradigm since then. The Campbellian hero's journey, the awkward love interest, bombastic orchestral soundtrack, ridiculously high stakes, catharthic happy ending... I've seen these themes repeated so many times over the past 30+ years in vain attempts to emulate the Star Wars phenomenon I'm frankly tired of them. And filmmakers are, too. But at the same time, Star Wars set the bar so high it's now financially impossible to create another "big sci-fi indie", so whenever they want to make a science fiction movie that breaks apart from the genre clichès established by Star Wars, they either go hard (the legacy of 2001: A Space Odyssey - Moon, Europa Report...) or go "Her" (to mention a recent science fiction film where the consequences of a huge world-changing event are dealt with in a close, intimate manner). The closest we've been to a paradigm-defying movie was The Matrix, where the writers took the Campbellian Hero for a spin, only to play switch with the viewers' expectations in the final act, and deliver an anticlimatic (yet extremely intelligent) ending to the series. But in the end, fan backlash and critical panning only served to reinforce the execs' adamant views on what a big-budget science fiction flick must have.
Something, somehow, will eventually dethrone Star Wars, but for now it's too well entrenched. The only ways to challenge its monopoly on cinematic sci-fi storytelling (The influence of SW goes beyond the movies and even the scifi/fantasy genres, but that's another story) are TV, animation and the ocasional pet project of a Hollywood holy cow that may slip past the studio suits. Either way the odds for a cinematic version of 40k, much less one that reaches Star Wars levels of cultural impact, are frankly quite slim.
gravitywell wrote: No, the majority of people wouldn't embrace the grimdark themes of 40k.
That's not to say that a good character driven movie or series could work. Animated would probably be better and could showcase the characters and models.
I probably wouldn't use Space Marines as the main characters though... Unless for the romance side of things you want to make them gay... or possibly have a love interest that existed for a marine before they were turned into a Space Marine.
No need to make Space Marines gay. We have the Dark Angels already:
Dark Angel, with thine aching lust
To rid the world of penitence:
Malicious Angel, who still dost
My soul such subtile violence!
Because of thee, no thought, no thing,
Abides for me undesecrate:
Dark Angel, ever on the wing,
Who never reachest me too late!
Thank Lionel Johnson for 40k's official gay marines Now you also know why they wear those robes
I don't see why not. Never understood why Star Wars was such a big deal to be honest. Then again I watched the Star Trek movies as a kid. The only thing that interests me from Star Wars is pod racing...I can take or leave the rest.
...a fairly simple but well-written and acted plot,
Have you seen Star Wars?!
I have. I've also seen The Empire Strikes Back, Return of the Jedi, Attack of the Clones, Revenge of the Sith and for some unknown reason The Phantom Menace.
But I digress. The proper order to watch the movies is 4 5 2 3 6. It makes it much much better.
jasper76 wrote:40K: Total War. Why this hasnt happened yet is beyond me.
The Creative Assembly is making a WHFB game. The Total War engine would not be suitable for 40k.
dementedwombat wrote:I don't see why not. Never understood why Star Wars was such a big deal to be honest. Then again I watched the Star Trek movies as a kid. The only thing that interests me from Star Wars is pod racing...I can take or leave the rest.
Probably because Star Wars was the first of its kind.
40k has the potential to become as big as Star Wars. But someone would need to pick it up and do something with it that has never been seen before, like the Lord of the Rings or Star Wars did.
I severely doubt any Hollywood adapation would remain loyal enough to depict Space Marines with enclosed helmets.
Breng77 wrote:Simply put, NO. Most successful movies and shows are based around characters.
Most recent big-budget movies don't have characters, they have archetypes.
Brother SRM wrote:I think you folks are more insistent about romantic subplots in a 40k adaptation than anyone in Hollywood actually would be
Not even close. Most Hollywood blockbusters are more celebrity vehicle/special effects demo than actual movie. Hollywood execs would probably panic like crazy if the material prevented them from doing the exact same thing they did in another 200 movies.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:Why would it even need a romantic subplot? I do not see the point of it.
It wouldn't at all, however... see below
gravitywell wrote:
Exactly. It would be silly. Which is why you wouldn't make a character driven series about Space Marines.
Except that you could, romantic elements aren't anywhere near a staple in character-driven stories. However, its a very commercial element, so Hollywood execs wouldn't dare leave it out. That might lead towards taking risks, and maybe even vision or ambition!
P.S/disclaimer.: This post comes from a horror fan. Beyond horror, most people probably couldn't name another genre where many (recent) independant or straight-out direct-to-video release are & have been favorably compared to (recent) big-budget wide theatrical releases and/or where said big budget wide theatrical releases are considered by several to be the genre's low point. Generally speaking people probably couldn't name another genre with many (recent) direct-to-video titles regarded as genuinely good movies (Genres without or borderline without wide theatrical releases don't count). Therefore, as a horror fan my dislike of Hollywood is probably a bit harsher than most users from a non-horror related forum.
In a perfect set of circumstances it could be, but in reality, I don't think it will be.
It would need first a blockbuster movie that introduced a group of characters that defined the setting. I'm thinking something like an Inquisitoral warband that has psykers, IG Stormtroopers, a couple Space Marines of different Chapters (maybe some Deathwatch Marines, that delve a bit into their Chapters-of-origin), and some Xeno and Chaotic antagonists, introducing the concept of Chaos (though not getting into the fine details of the various gods and all that... not yet, anyway), and also the various kinds of aliens (some Orks, some Eldar, some Tau, and some Tyranids, though the Eldar and Tau could be background characters for the first outing). You introduce some of the basic stuff... Hive cities, Agri Worlds, the gothic-baroque spaceships, etc, but you don't try to go 'round the Imperium in forty days. Just some hints at the variety of settings in the Imperium (SW4 had only 5 areas, after all... the wastes of Tattooine, Mos Eisley, the Falcon, the Death Star, Yavin IV, and then the space battle).
CGI for all the psychic stuff would need to be top-notch, set design to highlight the scifi-gothic feel would need to be spot-on, and the dialog needs to pop. The plotting needs to be tight, too. Acting has to be top-notch, but I would use big-name actors only in supporting parts, as walk-on roles, and the like, as Lucas did with Cushing and Guinness in ANH. The core group needs to be relative unknowns.
So you have the Inquisitor, who should be female and ass-kicking, with various romantic interests between two or three other characters (maybe one of which is presented as an "old flame", like a wealthy Rogue Trader, that has some conflict with one of the new ones).
The intent of the movie is to tell a self-contained story that introduces the setting and establishes the characters, and also hints at a much larger galaxy beyond what's on the screen. It makes mention of things like "the Heresy" and "the Second War of Armageddon" and the like, without going into any details (as Lucas did with mentioning the Clone Wars in A New Hope). This lets the audience fill in the blanks with their own imagination.
*Then*, after it releases, you have the marketing and merchandizing blitz. You put the 40K name on *everything*, whether that's toys, video games, Happy Meal tie-ins, Dixie cups or toilet paper. You have to follow the Lucas model and make the name ubiquitous in society. You spin off a bunch of side-story comics, books, TV shows, and all of that, telling stories from different parts of the galaxy.
I would love a down to earth series like Band of Brothers with the Imperial Guard instead. When I say down to earth I mean no Space Marines, not mentioning the Emperor that much, focussing on the harsh everyday life of imperial guardsmen, spice it up a little with their tanks seen up close and realistic, some Ogryns and maybe Orks.
What's important is for the viewer to get "close" to all this, let us savour all impressions so we'll get a good feeling of the 40k universe from ground - the series/movie mustn't be hasty!
It would need first a blockbuster movie that introduced a group of characters that defined the setting. I'm thinking something like an Inquisitoral warband that has psykers, IG Stormtroopers, a couple Space Marines of different Chapters
See, hoping for characters who themselves have defined, non-cliched personalties is probably already the limit of expections of an adapation in todays world
You introduce some of the basic stuff... Hive cities, Agri Worlds, the gothic-baroque spaceships, etc, but you don't try to go 'round the Imperium in forty days. Just some hints at the variety of settings in the Imperium (SW4 had only 5 areas, after all... the wastes of Tattooine, Mos Eisley, the Falcon, the Death Star, Yavin IV, and then the space battle).
OTOH, "Star Wars did it" is a mentality for something that won't come close to it. How many creature features emulated Jaws; how many were similar quality-wise? Is Eragon exalted as being of comparable quality to SW? Or is Eragon often reviled for similarities?
Psienesis wrote: .
CGI for all the psychic stuff would need to be top-notch
but I would use big-name actors only in supporting parts, as walk-on roles, and the like, as Lucas did with Cushing and Guinness in ANH.
Again, "Star Wars did it" isn't a sensible reason. However, I'd agree with this part only because Hollywood exces rarely hire big-name actors for much more than rehashing the same role?
It makes mention of things like "the Heresy" and "the Second War of Armageddon" and the like, without going into any details (as Lucas did with mentioning the Clone Wars in A New Hope). This lets the audience fill in the blanks with their own imagination.
And again, "Star Wars did it" is a poor reason.
Furthermore, currently, Hollywood movies spoon-feed the audience everything. An adaptation that allows the audience to think for themselves is out of the question.
If they made a film that was as big as star wars in scale it could be just as big but they would want to charge 3-6 times the price for a regular ticket to see the film minimizing viewers.
It would need first a blockbuster movie that introduced a group of characters that defined the setting. I'm thinking something like an Inquisitoral warband that has psykers, IG Stormtroopers, a couple Space Marines of different Chapters
See, hoping for characters who themselves have defined, non-cliched personalties is probably already the limit of expections of an adapation in todays world
You introduce some of the basic stuff... Hive cities, Agri Worlds, the gothic-baroque spaceships, etc, but you don't try to go 'round the Imperium in forty days. Just some hints at the variety of settings in the Imperium (SW4 had only 5 areas, after all... the wastes of Tattooine, Mos Eisley, the Falcon, the Death Star, Yavin IV, and then the space battle).
OTOH, "Star Wars did it" is a mentality for something that won't come close to it. How many creature features emulated Jaws; how many were similar quality-wise? Is Eragon exalted as being of comparable quality to SW? Or is Eragon often reviled for similarities?
Psienesis wrote: .
CGI for all the psychic stuff would need to be top-notch
but I would use big-name actors only in supporting parts, as walk-on roles, and the like, as Lucas did with Cushing and Guinness in ANH.
Again, "Star Wars did it" isn't a sensible reason. However, I'd agree with this part only because Hollywood exces rarely hire big-name actors for much more than rehashing the same role?
It makes mention of things like "the Heresy" and "the Second War of Armageddon" and the like, without going into any details (as Lucas did with mentioning the Clone Wars in A New Hope). This lets the audience fill in the blanks with their own imagination.
And again, "Star Wars did it" is a poor reason.
Furthermore, currently, Hollywood movies spoon-feed the audience everything. An adaptation that allows the audience to think for themselves is out of the question.
Did you miss the part I lead in with? "In a perfect world". That implies (more like outright states) that it doesn't involve the realities of Hollywood. And, no, not every Hollywood movie spoon-feeds the audience. There's been several films in recent years that have avoided doing this. There are also *plenty* of movies released in the last 20 years with great characters, great dialog, great plotting and great action. It's not impossible, it's just that the current crop of writers and directors working in Hollywood aren't very good at that task, and studios aren't expecting it, because movies have been declining in overall popularity in favor of television or DVD offerings.
As far as "no CGI" goes... not sure how you would show a Psyker throwing lightning bolts or a ship traveling through the Immaterium without CGI. There's no way to do that with practical effects without looking like some Ed Wood film.
As far as what you've listed as cliched and generic...
There's very few Hollywood movies with a strong female lead. There's Salt, Aeon Flux, Ultraviolet, Kill Bill, Underworld, Resident Evil, and Hunger Games, and of those, only Hunger Games has really seen massive popularity. RE is now direct-to-DVD, and Underworld was always kind of terrible. Salt was not particularly blockbusting, AF basically sucked, UV was very indie, and Kill Bill, being a Tarantino movie, attracts only a certain audience. Having a strong female lead is actually rarer in Hollywood than unicorns are.
The comparisons to SW are apt because, as the thread title says, the point here is to compare it to SW. I could point out a dozen other films with limited settings or locations, but that's not the point of the exercise.
You know why romantic triangles are cliche? Because they drive plot, they generate interest, they get people emotionally invested in the characters and relationships, and they have a proven track record in winning fans.
Also you could totally have a minor reference to Tyranids without breaking the fluff. The movie opens with an action sequence of the Inquisitor and her warband purging the last remnants of a gene-stealer cult. It would get the audience immediately interested in the movie by starting with a bang and provide the chance to get a little characterization fleshed out without the characters needing to sit around talking for the first 15 minutes (like the Tooth Fairy scene in Hellboy 2 if you've ever seen that movie. I actually really loved it. Apparently most people didn't as much though...)
Psienesis wrote: I*Then*, after it releases, you have the marketing and merchandizing blitz. You put the 40K name on *everything*, whether that's toys, video games, Happy Meal tie-ins, Dixie cups or toilet paper. You have to follow the Lucas model and make the name ubiquitous in society. You spin off a bunch of side-story comics, books, TV shows, and all of that, telling stories from different parts of the galaxy.
I think what a lot of young people dont understand is just how much Star Wars changed what movies had done. You probably don't remember (or have never seen outside of bad youtube) Flash Gordon. When the space ship swung on wires and had a sparkler coming out its butt. The closest thing visually at the time was Star Trek the TV series, but if you look closely at it, the ship was always still with the background and or camera zooming in. The aliens were people with make up and heavy costuming.
Star Wars actually had space ships with independent motion. Yeah the toy was swinging down a wire, but that little wobble gave the ship an independant motion that just made it seem more real. It wasn't a static model with just the background moving.
The muppets and costuming were revolutionary. You no longer had people in ape suits (I.E. The original planet of the apes). The prostetics were so complete that it didn't break the illusion because you never saw the human inside the mask.
Have you listened to the background music in any movie older than Star Wars? Unless it was a moment of epic importance there isn't any. The way music is worked into the actual movie as a character amplifier itself was paramount to its impact.
Young people have seen what Star Wars has influenced over and over and over in thousands of different works, as such when you see Star Wars you don't really see it as that big of a deal. However, if you were around like us in 1977, you would understand just how game changing it really was. Star Wars was an all together new experience.
I think its impossible for anything to dethrone it, after all, you can only do something first once.
Jayden, your analysis has problems.
Flash Gordon came out after Star Wars, and looked so gawd-awful because they wanted it to be as cheesy as possible. (They had friggin QUEEN write the theme.)
Also, plenty of movies had music all over the place pre-Star Wars, it just wasn't as commonplace.
Waaaghpower wrote: Jayden, your analysis has problems.
Flash Gordon came out after Star Wars, and looked so gawd-awful because they wanted it to be as cheesy as possible. (They had friggin QUEEN write the theme.)
Also, plenty of movies had music all over the place pre-Star Wars, it just wasn't as commonplace.
Actually, I was thinking of the old Flash Gordon black and white from the 30-40s. They had three serial films back then. As for sound, think African Queen, Steve McQueens Bullitt, heck even all the old Bond films. These are all "top" films and the soundtrack was lacking through a lot of the movie. But look at anything made now, or even in the past 20 years. It is a totally different thought process.
Psienesis wrote: There's very few Hollywood movies with a strong female lead.
However, there is no lack of support character that are Action Girls or Faux Action Girls. Also, you kind of missed the whole Alien series in your list. And both Tarantino and Rodriguez movies from Grindhouse. And, I guess, a bunch of others.
ashcroft wrote: The Gaunt's Ghosts books would probably be the most adaptation-friendly material, seeing as they actually have identifiable, even sympathetic characters that an audience can relate to - but it achieves that mostly by keeping the more iconic elements of the setting - i.e. the Space Marines - more or less out of the action.
Actually, I would say what we actually need is everyone's favorite HERO OF THE IMPERIUM, commissar Ciaphas Cain !
Cain might do it, but it wouldn't be the 40k we know and love.
Cain is a good look at how an American writer, coming fresh to the setting, might change it for American audiences. Sandy Mitchell was the first American BL writer, and the differences between his vision of 40k and the standard one are notable and significant.
Sigh. Thing is, true 40k is just too... British to be a massive Hollywood hit. There are too many references and jokes that just fly over other audiences' heads, while the infusion of American dayly culture through TV programs and the like means that American cultural references can be understood by people in most of the world.
Apart from James Bond, which is well enough established to have its own fan culture, how many big-name British movies do you know?
Mojo1jojo wrote: So I was looking around and did not see anyone talk about this topic. Seeing how Star Wars evolved I was wondering if Warhammer 40k could do the same and if so why it hasn't happen already. Its seems that there is plenty of story content and with new graphic technology Warhammer 40k could make some ground breaking movies, at least its better then all these throw backs and horrible movies coming out today.
Star Wars is grounded on faith, hope, hard work, personal growth, and redemption, leading to the triumph of good over evil.
The whole thrust of the 40K story is an ultimately futile struggle to prop up an evil empire whose only virtue is that the alternatives are claimed to be worse.
Clearly such a background cannot have wide appeal.
60mm wrote:That would require GW to do a lot of things right . . . not their area of expertise.
Much bigger problem with Hollywood than with Games Workshop
Psienesis wrote:It's not impossible, it's just that the current crop of writers and directors working in Hollywood aren't very good at that task, and studios aren't expecting it, because movies have been declining in overall popularity in favor of television or DVD offerings.
I'd be slighty more cynical and suggest Hollywood would rather produce disposable movies because if everything they make sucks, people will start to think they're actually watching good movies.
Psienesis wrote:As far as "no CGI" goes... not sure how you would show a Psyker throwing lightning bolts or a ship traveling through the Immaterium without CGI. There's no way to do that with practical effects without looking like some Ed Wood film.
CGI dates fast. It would, quite soon, become pretty lame itself.
Psienesis wrote:There's very few Hollywood movies with a strong female lead.
Yet, whenever some female character shows up and actually fights, it leaves me thinking "great, another Buffy clone". It could only avoid being snark bait through avoiding any "sexy" element.
Psienesis wrote:You know why romantic triangles are cliche? Because they drive plot, they generate interest, they get people emotionally invested in the characters and relationships, and they have a proven track record in winning fans.
"Its successful so we're going to kepp doing it" - In other words, a fallback for lazy writers who repeat the same thing over and over rather than put effort into a character-driven story.
Eldarain wrote: 1.HBO Eisenhorn series.
2.Profit and widespread exposure.
... but there is no sex in 40K, what would HBO have to film then?
Well, in Eisenhorn, Ravenor is in a relationship with the swordswoman, it is also alluded to that Eisenhorn has attempted to have a relationship or atleast has romantic feelings to Bequin, but can do nothing about it because he has psychic powers and she is an untouchable.... Eisenhorn caught naked by his hot female pilot as he tries to catch an intruder. Eisenhorn in bed with Bequin while disguised as 'twists' during an investigation...
Ravenors maiming and the loss of his gf, The deaths of his followers in book 3 and Bequin in statsis... Maybe not all about sex, but enough to keep it interesting plus Abnett has a way of making characters believable
Follow up with Ravenor series, dealing with the issues there... his follower havijng cancer, his interrogator fighting his inner daemon etc.... Moving into a small story involving the Grey Knights, basedon Emperors gift...
Ultramarines was gak, but the universe isnt just Space Marines, and even in some books they are almost human... take Brothers of the snake (Abnett gain) for an example.
Then you have Gaunts Ghosts.... loss of a world, fighting adversity and prejudice, love, family, loss terror... who wouldnt love to see that made into a series orset of movies... and you can use it to introduce other races as offshoots..
And as IG arent transhuman, not too much CGI needed
Maybe not as big as starwars but movies could be done, with the correct writer, BL involvement and studio backing.
BTW does anybody know when Lord Inquisitor will be done?
Waaaghpower wrote: This could technically happen, but it's unlikely. Star Wars succeeded as a pop culture phenomenon, with revolutionary visuals and almost a complete reinvention of a genre. No 'Sci-fi Lite' movies existed at the time, excluding low-budget serials from the early days of cinema. The only sci-fi in existence was hard political commentary and speculative fiction, at least for the most part.
Star Wars broke a huge amount of ground by making Science Fiction accessible to everyone, with a fairly simple but well-written and acted plot, new concepts, and a fun movie that didn't require a lot of thought. Nothing like it had ever come before, and so it took the world by storm with it's innovation and unique style. Everything since then has been succesful mainly through inertia. There is a lot of bad Star Wars. There is a lot of good Star Wars. But the bad can be ignored because of it's mere weight as a cultural icon, and it has enough social impact and enough people know about it to keep it running for years or even decades after the last good piece of SW fiction is written.
40k doesn't have that. Dune came out half a century ago. Nobody will be taken by surprise by 40k, any more than they will be caught off guard by a turtle. Regardless of quality, 40k simply doesn't have the shock or capability to build up the social inertia to become a widespread phenomenon like Star Wars.
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I've thought way too much about this.
such a good argument. I reluctantly agree only because I would love to see a succesful transition to the big screen.
IF it could be done, i think the filmmakers would have to be given a lot of creative license so it works with a wider audience.
I love a strong female lead as long as its not Charlie's angels and more briene of tarth (game of thrones woman), she is so badass that I ended up watching the show to see what happened to her, she is big and battle hardened and I could see her knocking men around like children, not some 110lb super model that one punches a 300lb across the room... Hate that particular meme.
KorPhaeron77 wrote:I don't think it would really work as a movie. You see Star Wars had one major plot that had a start a middle and an end. Then the universe just expanded around that main event, like books, comic books, video games, the prequel movies etc. The problem with 40k is that there is no "central storyline" Sure their are tons of big events but if you made a direct comparison, the 40k timeline only goes up to about the same plot advancement as just after the battle of Hoth in Empire. In that, the "good" guys have just been struck a major blow (eye of terror campaign) we lack a "happy ending" where Abaddon is killed and Chaos defeated.
True you could use any number of enclosed story lines like the Nightlords Trilogy or Eisenhorn or any of the many plot lines. The problem is that almost all 40k books assume the reader is in some way familiar with the background, so it's very difficult to do like a total introduction without ruining the story.
The Horus Heresy doesn't work because as with most prequels, a lot of the stories work on irony or foreshadowing, assuming that the reader knows what the 40k world will end up like. Plus it is wayyyyy too big to ever be a reality. It took nearly 10 years to turn the 7 Harry Potter books into a movie. The HH series is probably going to run into the region of 35/40 novels before it's done, if it's ever done.
I think the best way to make 40k into a popular media would be like an animated tv series. Something like Dragon Ball Z, where you have these huge storylines that go on for weeks and weeks and then when one "saga" is over, move onto the next one. But even that would be a massive stretch. To be honest I think we should be greatful that we are staying as a niche, where all the wacky hobby goings on can continue and not have to conform to whatever would draw in the the greater public.
I mean look at a Hollywood execs mind if this was proposed to them: "So the main character is a 7 foot tall killing machine in power armour? Awesome, who's his love interest? Oh what wait...they're A sexual...mmm can't he have a girlfriend? What about one of those Sisters of Battle? Yeah that works, Ok So Captain Bloggs falls in love with Sister Needsrescuing and they're fighting these evil superhumans for the fate of the galaxy and what's that?...The bad guys win? The good guys are actually a dictatorship too? No we can't have that. Ok so change it so the Space Marine saves the girl, kills the big bad, delivers a cheeseball quotable phrase, Maybe he makes fun of the bad guy's lack of arms...I don't know, I'm not the writer, we're just shooting ideas. And they all live happily ever after. Huh? Grimdark, nah audiences won't like that, Oh but we do like the fact that you already jacked up the prices on the merch to promote the movie...oh those are the regular prices? Wow, how is this even a thing?"
Breng77 wrote:Simply put, NO. Most successful movies and shows are based around characters. Something 40k really lacks (you could try to do specific BL novels as a move or something.) The larger issue though is that 40k is a setting....not a story.
You would need to build a story around characters, and honestly space marines are not a great place for deep characters. SO you probably end up tiny window into a small part of the world.
I actually think an Inquisition (Dark Heresy) or Rouge Trader themed show in the setting has more possibilty of success than one based in the formal 40k setting. But even that being successful is a stretch.
You fix this by centering around the rise and fall of Horus. The Horus Heresy arc has enough traditional cinematic elements to forge a screenplay around.
Yet, whenever some female character shows up and actually fights, it leaves me thinking "great, another Buffy clone". It could only avoid being snark bait through avoiding any "sexy" element.
Yes, because yet another Bruce Willis/Sylvester Stallone/Steven Seagal/Arnold Swarzenegger/whatever clone is so much better.
Why do female characters have to be better than one of the best strong characters of all time, when male protagonists can just fit the mold and be boring?
Breng77 wrote:Simply put, NO. Most successful movies and shows are based around characters. Something 40k really lacks (you could try to do specific BL novels as a move or something.) The larger issue though is that 40k is a setting....not a story.
You would need to build a story around characters, and honestly space marines are not a great place for deep characters. SO you probably end up tiny window into a small part of the world.
I actually think an Inquisition (Dark Heresy) or Rouge Trader themed show in the setting has more possibilty of success than one based in the formal 40k setting. But even that being successful is a stretch.
You fix this by centering around the rise and fall of Horus. The Horus Heresy arc has enough traditional cinematic elements to forge a screenplay around.
Which would require multiple movies to accomplish. One film is not enough to tell the story at all. You would need a film depicting Horus prior to the coming of the emporer (his rise to glory etc, developing him as a character that people actually care about.) ending with the arrival of the emporer (this could happen mid way, but we still need the movie to depict him as a good guy). Then a film depicting him on the Great Crusade, setting up a fall perhaps at the end of this second movie.
Essentially you would need to set up a scenario where people actually care about the fall of Horus. Something even Star Wars (in movies at least) failed to do with Vader.
It will never happen, not because of the IP but because GW does so much to alienate their customers.
There are so many people I know who picked up the game as teenagers, stopped playing while they were in college, then came back when they had a real job / life settled down.
Not being able to keep an audience of 21 - 34 year olds engaged with your brand kills this idea.
I mean look at a Hollywood execs mind if this was proposed to them:
"So the main character is a 7 foot tall killing machine in power armour? Awesome, who's his love interest? Oh what wait...they're A sexual...mmm can't he have a girlfriend? What about one of those Sisters of Battle? Yeah that works, Ok So Captain Bloggs falls in love with Sister Needsrescuing and they're fighting these evil superhumans for the fate of the galaxy and what's that?...The bad guys win? The good guys are actually a dictatorship too? No we can't have that. Ok so change it so the Space Marine saves the girl, kills the big bad, delivers a cheeseball quotable phrase, Maybe he makes fun of the bad guy's lack of arms...I don't know, I'm not the writer, we're just shooting ideas. And they all live happily ever after. Huh? Grimdark, nah audiences won't like that, Oh but we do like the fact that you already jacked up the prices on the merch to promote the movie...oh those are the regular prices? Wow, how is this even a thing?"
Thank you for the best laugh of my day so far.
Brilliant
Hollismason wrote: The source material would have to be drastically altered as there are no "good" guys in 40k.
Except Ciaphas Cain. He is pretty damn good !
Furyou Miko wrote: Why do female characters have to be better than one of the best strong characters of all time, when male protagonists can just fit the mold and be boring?
So, no male character, no female character.
I totally propose we use a tire as the main character. It was done before, and the movie was awesome. We need more tire as main characters. I will henceforth only watch movies that pass the tire version of the Bechdel test !
Hollismason wrote: The source material would have to be drastically altered as there are no "good" guys in 40k.
Except Ciaphas Cain. He is pretty damn good !
Furyou Miko wrote: Why do female characters have to be better than one of the best strong characters of all time, when male protagonists can just fit the mold and be boring?
So, no male character, no female character.
I totally propose we use a tire as the main character. It was done before, and the movie was awesome. We need more tire as main characters. I will henceforth only watch movies that pass the tire version of the Bechdel test !
Hollismason wrote:The source material would have to be drastically altered as there are no "good" guys in 40k.
"No good guys" is a wide alternative fan interpretation.
Imperium of Man being the "good guys" is40K canon.
No matter how many people take the fan interpretation that there's no "good guys", its still not canon.
Besides, the Imperium of Man is... a bit poticially incorrect. Its nowhere near 1% as bad as the evil factions.
Furthermore, the good guys being not that good only highlights how dire circumstances are in the setting.
Furyou Miko wrote:
Why do female characters have to be better than one of the best strong characters of all time, when male protagonists can just fit the mold and be boring?
Because frankly, at Buffy's highest point, Buffy clones were everywhere, and written by writers far less talented and what was in Buffy for logical reasons only existed in the imitators' franchise because Buffy did it.
Its like asking, "why isn't Bullet Time cool anymore?" Once Bullet Time was everywhere, by being everywhere it was metaphorically castrated.
Furthermore, its completely possibly to portray an a female warrior who doesn't emulate Buffy, but that would require effort/vision/ambition/imagination
No, it's just say it's hard to actually have the actual Imperium show up in medium. They're literal nationalistic fascists with strong under currents of literal xenophobia. It's like trying to make a heroic war movie about Nazi Germany.
They are not "good" guys. Seriously, they're evil. It's just Chaos is more evil than them.
Because frankly, at Buffy's highest point, Buffy clones were everywhere, and written by writers far less talented and what was in Buffy for logical reasons only existed in the imitators' franchise because Buffy did it.
Its like asking, "why isn't Bullet Time cool anymore?" Once Bullet Time was everywhere, by being everywhere it was metaphorically castrated.
Furthermore, its completely possibly to portray an a female warrior who doesn't emulate Buffy, but that would require effort/vision/ambition/imagination
Except, well, no, it's not.
If you want to go with the Matrix analogy, it's asking why Trinity isn't cool any more. A female protagonist should NOT be a gimmick! It should be an equally regarded option as a male protagonist!
Or are you saying that the Hunger Games aren't cool because their gimmick is that Katniss is a woman? Ignoring the whole latino/caucasian controversy.
Tyranno wrote: Imperium of Man being the "good guys" is40K canon.
There is no 40K canon, and there is certainly nowhere where the studio told all the Tau and Eldar players “Hey, your faction are not good guys, the Imperium that wants to exterminate them is !”. That would be a pretty dickish move. Really, there are bad guys and guys that are not all bad.
Yeah, the Imperium being good guys has never even been stated. Even in his deepest depths of fanboy mania, even Matt Ward never tried to state that the Ultramarines were good people.
Hollismason wrote: The source material would have to be drastically altered as there are no "good" guys in 40k.
Riddick hasn't had that problem.
He doesn't have that problem, but he also doesn't have the problem of being anywhere near remotely as successful or as big as Star Wars (which is my attempt to cleverly say that you're comparing apples and oranges).
Hollismason wrote: It's like trying to make a heroic war movie about Nazi Germany.
Because you do believe there are none ? There are some. I can name them. And after watching them, you will likely feel empathy toward the nazi party member protagonist, which actually existed. If you do not believe me, look for City of life and death, for instance.
(Okay, calling it heroic would be cheating. And it is not really about Germany. But it is still a war movie including an extremely sympathetic nazi character !)
A female protagonist should NOT be a gimmick! It should be an equally regarded option as a male protagonist!
.
The point isn't that a female protagonist is laughable - its that a Buffy-esque female protagonist is laughable. That archetype's time has been and gone; its dated.
There could be female, combat capable female protagonists who doesn't resemble the Buffy archetype. But that would require imagination and ambition, not just copying what someone else did.
Tyranno wrote: Imperium of Man being the "good guys" is40K canon.
Only in some material - such as Gaunt's Ghosts, which focuses on the war against the archenemy of the Imperium, and mostly avoids delving too deep into the darker side of the Imperium.
Mostly. Only in Death is something of an exception...
Spoiler:
Soric's fate in Only in Death is perhaps the most horrific scene in the entire series, and that is an act perpetrated as a matter of routine against its own citizens by the "good guys". That Hark mercy kills him in the end does not diminish the horror of the fate of sanctioned psykers.
Away from the (relatively) positive portrayal of the IoM in that series it only gets worse. Several of the early books of the Horus Heresy mention, almost in passing, the extermination of entire alien races, and whilst it would be reassuring to assume that all of those races were unremittingly hostile and therefore 'needed' to be destroyed it would also be a lie. The Diasporex only wanted to be left alone, and yet the human component of that civilisation is enslaved en masse, and the alien component exterminated. Nor can this act be blamed on Horus - it is the official policy of the IoM, as laid down by the Emperor himself.
"Suffer not the alien to live."
Think about what that really means for a moment, then ask yourself why there are no 'friendly' alien races within the worlds conquered/reclaimed by the Imperium of Man. It's not a part of the background that is often dwelled upon,but it is undeniably there.
Given that just about every sci-fi franchise from Star Wars to Star Trek to Mass Effect shows humanity living alongside (at least some) alien races in peace and friendship, and that irrational hatred of alien life is often painted as an allegory of contemporary racism, that alone would be a death blow for the chances of a truly accurate portrayal of the Imperium of Man to ever make it to mainstream screens.
Hollismason wrote: It's like trying to make a heroic war movie about Nazi Germany.
Because you do believe there are none ? There are some. I can name them. And after watching them, you will likely feel empathy toward the nazi party member protagonist, which actually existed. If you do not believe me, look for City of life and death, for instance.
(Okay, calling it heroic would be cheating. And it is not really about Germany. But it is still a war movie including an extremely sympathetic nazi character !)
Uhm. I think you have your movies backwards, that's a film about the Rape of Nanking and a member of the Nazi Party who protected citizens. It's not a heroic film about Waffen SS members kicking ass and taking names while snorting amphetamines and killing jews.
Seriously. The Imperium is a Nationalistic Fascist state run by the Church. Who commit Genocide on their own people for the good of the many.
The Space Marines are elite shock troops that are sent in to quell rebellions and are basically Ubermensch.
The Imperium is not a "good" thing.
The source material is incredibly dark to be almost impalpable , Now flip that with Star Wars with obvious good versus evil. I'm not saying it wouldn't work as a film series but it'd have to be basically about Rebels against the Imperium and Chaos.
A female protagonist should NOT be a gimmick! It should be an equally regarded option as a male protagonist!
.
The point isn't that a female protagonist is laughable - its that a Buffy-esque female protagonist is laughable. That archetype's time has been and gone; its dated.
There could be female, combat capable female protagonists who doesn't resemble the Buffy archetype. But that would require imagination and ambition, not just copying what someone else did.
You're the one obsessing about Buffy and saying that every strong female character is a Buffy clone. Katniss is not a Buffy clone. Trinity is not a Buffy clone. She also kinda flaked out and failed in the Sequels That Are Denied though. The female lead from Starship Troopers wasn't even a Buffy clone!
Of all the races I think the closest any single race comes to being "good" would be either Tau (and even then they would be closer to Neutral on the Good/Evil axis) or Harlequins.
Think about it. Harlequins are known for appearing to the aid of other races to help take down Chaos. Furthermore, they visit other races and tell stories about the Eldar Fall to try and prevent other races from suffering the same fate.
Hollismason wrote: It's not a heroic film about Waffen SS members kicking ass and taking names while snorting amphetamines and killing jews.
I know, I even explicitly stated it was not heroic. But anyway, John Rabe is still a good example of someone who was part of an undeniably and irredeemably evil organization that still managed to do good things at his own level. Like characters from a 40k story may do.
Anyway, I do agree with you that no 40k stuff will go mainstream because of grimdark and fascism. And I am perfectly happy with that. But when I saw your comparison, I just felt like “Challenge accepted !”.
It's not a accurate comparison because being a member of the Nazi party in Germany wasn't the same as being involved with the Nazis.
For that matter you could have used the example of Schindler.
I agree though, they'd have to change some core issues with the source material to make it palpable for mass appeal. Renegade unit that against the Empire and Chaos would be the way to go with that. It'd also be difficult to make a film about Space Marines, if they tried to stay true to the film because it'd just be boring.
Think about what that really means for a moment, then ask yourself why there are no 'friendly' alien races within the worlds conquered/reclaimed by the Imperium of Man. It's not a part of the background that is often dwelled upon,but it is undeniably there.
If you look deeply enough (i.e. overanalyse things) even saturday morning kids' shows could be called "morally grey".
Very, very flat villains, even aliens with (presumably) very different values (e.g. Power Rangers) enjoy "bad" things but call those things "bad". There's your cynical religious dictorship allegory - most races in the Universe decided/perpetuated the idea that those aliens' values or nature are inherantly "bad".
In Power Rangers, obviously sentient monsters and even major villains are killed without a second thought, and "good and true" races throughout the universe would annihilate them without a second though. There's your racism/genocide allegory.
Power Rangers even had (inexplicably) humans from planets other than Earth to aid in humans and aliens not living together.
But that doesn't Power Rangers a "grey franchise" where there's no "good guys" and whatnot
I can't imagine the negative IoM elements being anything beyond establishing the cyncism of the setting. Games Workshop says 40K is about heroes and villains, therefore there being heroes, "good guys", is canon.
Uhm what. No that's not how that works. Morals are actions that you take and beliefs upheld, it's conforming to what is right.
There's no real "moral" force in the Universe especially not 40k which is specifically written to be grim. Everyone has shades of grey to them in 40k that's kind of the point. There's darkness in all the races, excepting maybe Orks and even they have immoral members of their race.
Even the goody good Tau have a darkness about them. Every race does.
The only one that could even be inconsidered beyond moral is Tyranids as they're basically just a biological entity.
That *is* how it works. That's how the Iliad has heroes on both sides of the war.
OED wrote:
A person, typically a man, who is admired for their courage, outstanding achievements, or noble qualities
Note the "or noble qualities". Not "and noble qualities".
Kharn the Betrayer is a hero. He's brave as feth, he's done incredible things, things that even other Space Marines cannot do, and to those who venerate Khorne, he would be a hero, an ideal to live up to.
Kharn the Betrayer is not a good guy. He's not even a particularly nice guy.
To the Mongols Genghis Khan was certainly a hero; he lead their armies to glory and conquered most of China as well as parts of the Middle East.
To the Chinese back then he would have been seen as the devil incarnate, and even today he is despised in the Middle East, seeing him as a murderous tyrant.
For good reason too; his armies killed about 3 quarters of the population of the Iranian Plateau.
Tim Curry as Long John Silver wrote:Now take Sir Francis Drake.
The Spanish all despise him.
But to the British, he's a hero,
and they idolize him.
It's how you look at buccaneers,
that makes them bad, or good.
And I see us as members of
a noble brotherhood.
Tim Curry as Long John Silver wrote:Now take Sir Francis Drake. The Spanish all despise him. But to the British, he's a hero, and they idolize him. It's how you look at buccaneers, that makes them bad, or good. And I see us as members of a noble brotherhood.
^ Exactly.
Hero does not necessarily equal good. It usually just means he's popular.
See also Attila the Hun, the "Scourge of God". Hated by the Eastern Roman Empire, loved by his subjects.
Waaaghpower wrote: Jayden, your analysis has problems.
Flash Gordon came out after Star Wars, and looked so gawd-awful because they wanted it to be as cheesy as possible. (They had friggin QUEEN write the theme.)
Also, plenty of movies had music all over the place pre-Star Wars, it just wasn't as commonplace.
Actually, I was thinking of the old Flash Gordon black and white from the 30-40s. They had three serial films back then. As for sound, think African Queen, Steve McQueens Bullitt, heck even all the old Bond films. These are all "top" films and the soundtrack was lacking through a lot of the movie. But look at anything made now, or even in the past 20 years. It is a totally different thought process.
Resevoir Dogs. (Actually, anything by Quentin Tarintino.) Practically no music the entire time, except when it's really striking.
I don't see a Space Marine working very well if at all. I can't really see a story in which the audience can really feel empathy for them.
However, I think an Inquisitor's story, a Inquisitorial Henchman's story,a rogue trader's story, anyone still human's story would have the potential to be good. Space Marines could always be secondary or minor characters.
When I made the comparison to Star Wars I did not mean the construct of the movie but the ground breaking nature of the film. I dont know about most people but I am tired of the predictable plots all movies are following, something new would be such a nice new breath of air. I believe WHFK, or even some related type of story plot , could be used and none happy endings is not something new, if you watch Asian films, which have started to drift over to the west, Old boy comes to mind.
I would prefer this to the constant remakes, and ruining of my favorite classics, except Robo Cop I actually enjoyed that movie.
Psienesis wrote: There's very few Hollywood movies with a strong female lead.
However, there is no lack of support character that are Action Girls or Faux Action Girls. Also, you kind of missed the whole Alien series in your list. And both Tarantino and Rodriguez movies from Grindhouse. And, I guess, a bunch of others.
ashcroft wrote: The Gaunt's Ghosts books would probably be the most adaptation-friendly material, seeing as they actually have identifiable, even sympathetic characters that an audience can relate to - but it achieves that mostly by keeping the more iconic elements of the setting - i.e. the Space Marines - more or less out of the action.
Actually, I would say what we actually need is everyone's favorite HERO OF THE IMPERIUM, commissar Ciaphas Cain !
Now Im sad cause I want to see a Cain moviee sooooo bad but know it will never happen. That my favorit BL books.
KorPhaeron77 wrote: I mean look at a Hollywood execs mind if this was proposed to them:
"So the main character is a 7 foot tall killing machine in power armour? Awesome, who's his love interest? Oh what wait...they're A sexual...mmm can't he have a girlfriend? What about one of those Sisters of Battle? Yeah that works, Ok So Captain Bloggs falls in love with Sister Needsrescuing and they're fighting these evil superhumans for the fate of the galaxy and what's that?...The bad guys win? The good guys are actually a dictatorship too? No we can't have that. Ok so change it so the Space Marine saves the girl, kills the big bad, delivers a cheeseball quotable phrase, Maybe he makes fun of the bad guy's lack of arms...I don't know, I'm not the writer, we're just shooting ideas. And they all live happily ever after. Huh? Grimdark, nah audiences won't like that, Oh but we do like the fact that you already jacked up the prices on the merch to promote the movie...oh those are the regular prices? Wow, how is this even a thing?"
Can't be quoted enough, really funny.
On topic, I think it could be made into a succesful, dark and grim grimdark movie but obviously it will never be as big as star wars. If it became as big as star wars, it would only mean that it has been finaly diluted and kiddified to the ground and noble hurr durr Space Marines with tough but good hearted Imperial Guardsmen finaly kill that evil chaos from hell.
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