AngryAngel80 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Hopefully enough to can FW.

What is your problem with fw? If you don't like the models, fine, but don't force your bad taste on others. If other players want to use fw they should be free to.

Is it because it's something else that makes it hard for you to win with your army of boring cannibals?

No, just sick of their units in general.

Gee that's a nuanced answer. Sick of how they look? Their rules? The fact that it's something else, along with hordes and not getting two victory points for every gretchin you kill that prevents you from winning?

And if you are sick of them how does that justify removing them as an option for everyone else?

No, most of its not too hard to beat.

You still haven't answered the question as to why you think fw should be removed other than yourself not liking the units.

I don't like Blood Angels. That doesn't make me want them removed from the game. It just makes me enjoy killing them more.

He has no answer and further will say they should remove blood angels. Just wait and see.

Yup you called it. Don't know about you but I think I might smell a troll.

Yes but that won't happen as they keep adding more. As well, as has been said, still seems awful sad to want something removed because you don't like it. I mean maybe you see FW every where, I rarely see FW but wouldn't want it gone as it hardly factors into a concern but makes some people happy.

So aside from disliking other people taking things you don't like or feel a need for, guess FW is ok.


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Gadzilla666 wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Hopefully enough to can FW.

What is your problem with fw? If you don't like the models, fine, but don't force your bad taste on others. If other players want to use fw they should be free to.

Is it because it's something else that makes it hard for you to win with your army of boring cannibals?

No, just sick of their units in general.

Gee that's a nuanced answer. Sick of how they look? Their rules? The fact that it's something else, along with hordes and not getting two victory points for every gretchin you kill that prevents you from winning?

And if you are sick of them how does that justify removing them as an option for everyone else?

No, most of its not too hard to beat.

You still haven't answered the question as to why you think fw should be removed other than yourself not liking the units.

I don't like Blood Angels. That doesn't make me want them removed from the game. It just makes me enjoy killing them more.

He has no answer and further will say they should remove blood angels. Just wait and see.

Yup you called it. Don't know about you but I think I might smell a troll.

I don't think he's a troll, he's just a really niche case of someone who hates all aspects of the game but can't let go of it.

As I said, marines don't need 82 dreadnoughts. And the game needs fewer choices. I'm not a troll; these are my positions.

Martel732 wrote:
As I said, marines don't need 82 dreadnoughts. And the game needs fewer choices. I'm not a troll; these are my positions.

Just for the knowledge what do you like of the game ? As you don't like options, and FW is more than dreads but lets not let that get in the way of a good hate. I recall you disliking dice as it's too random.

So what do you like of the game ?

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Yes but that won't happen as they keep adding more. As well, as has been said, still seems awful sad to want something removed because you don't like it. I mean maybe you see FW every where, I rarely see FW but wouldn't want it gone as it hardly factors into a concern but makes some people happy.

So aside from disliking other people taking things you don't like or feel a need for, guess FW is ok.


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Gadzilla666 wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Hopefully enough to can FW.

What is your problem with fw? If you don't like the models, fine, but don't force your bad taste on others. If other players want to use fw they should be free to.

Is it because it's something else that makes it hard for you to win with your army of boring cannibals?

No, just sick of their units in general.

Gee that's a nuanced answer. Sick of how they look? Their rules? The fact that it's something else, along with hordes and not getting two victory points for every gretchin you kill that prevents you from winning?

And if you are sick of them how does that justify removing them as an option for everyone else?

No, most of its not too hard to beat.

You still haven't answered the question as to why you think fw should be removed other than yourself not liking the units.

I don't like Blood Angels. That doesn't make me want them removed from the game. It just makes me enjoy killing them more.

He has no answer and further will say they should remove blood angels. Just wait and see.

Yup you called it. Don't know about you but I think I might smell a troll.

I don't think he's a troll, he's just a really niche case of someone who hates all aspects of the game but can't let go of it.

Ah. So basically a Star Wars fan. Or someone who keeps buying new Metallica albums hoping they won't continue sounding like sellouts.

Fine get rid of the marine FW units and we'll call it a day. If I never see another leviathan, it will be too soon.

I suppose I don't like much like anything about this game anymore now that you mention it.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Yes but that won't happen as they keep adding more. As well, as has been said, still seems awful sad to want something removed because you don't like it. I mean maybe you see FW every where, I rarely see FW but wouldn't want it gone as it hardly factors into a concern but makes some people happy.

So aside from disliking other people taking things you don't like or feel a need for, guess FW is ok.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Hopefully enough to can FW.

What is your problem with fw? If you don't like the models, fine, but don't force your bad taste on others. If other players want to use fw they should be free to.

Is it because it's something else that makes it hard for you to win with your army of boring cannibals?

No, just sick of their units in general.

Gee that's a nuanced answer. Sick of how they look? Their rules? The fact that it's something else, along with hordes and not getting two victory points for every gretchin you kill that prevents you from winning?

And if you are sick of them how does that justify removing them as an option for everyone else?

No, most of its not too hard to beat.

You still haven't answered the question as to why you think fw should be removed other than yourself not liking the units.

I don't like Blood Angels. That doesn't make me want them removed from the game. It just makes me enjoy killing them more.

He has no answer and further will say they should remove blood angels. Just wait and see.

Yup you called it. Don't know about you but I think I might smell a troll.

I don't think he's a troll, he's just a really niche case of someone who hates all aspects of the game but can't let go of it.

Ah. So basically a Star Wars fan. Or someone who keeps buying new Metallica albums hoping they won't continue sounding like sellouts.

Sort of, but some of them eventually know what it was is gone and move on content in the past that they loved and not the future they don't love.

What does any of this have to do with an errata for CA19?

An errata that trashcans FW maybe?

 ingtaer wrote:
What does any of this have to do with an errata for CA19?

It's indicative of the frustration we all feel waiting for the blasted FAQ.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 ingtaer wrote:
What does any of this have to do with an errata for CA19?

It's indicative of the frustration we all feel waiting for the blasted FAQ.

Can we not just paint some toys or play some games with them instead of dragging this thread off on tangents? I was pretty sure that I read somewhere that staying on topic was a rule.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 ingtaer wrote:
What does any of this have to do with an errata for CA19?

It's indicative of the frustration we all feel waiting for the blasted FAQ.

Yeah it all started with me venting about the fact that the wait for the faq is creating expectations that it will address more than it probably will, eg on my part, fixing fw points for the hellforged super heavys.

I thought GW priced a bunch of FW out of the game on purpose.

That makes no sense.

Plus Hanlon's Razor.

Martel732 wrote:
I thought GW priced a bunch of FW out of the game on purpose.

*Sigh* Yes but that purpose was simply that they didn't want/have the time to balance them. A fellblade is simply a baneblade with a better stat line and a different set of weaponry. Not really hard to balance.

It should have been properly balanced in the new ca, and the extreme delay in the faq led me to believe that maybe gw was addressing such fw models. The announcement of the new fw books pretty much puts the kibosh on that theory.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
That makes no sense.

Plus Hanlon's Razor.

Lazy sometimes works just as well as ignorance as an explanation.

Everything is hard for GW to balance. That's my problem with so many extra weirdo units on top of all the other crap that's wrong.

Martel732 wrote:
Everything is hard for GW to balance. That's my problem with so many extra weirdo units on top of all the other crap that's wrong.

No everything isn't. A fellblade is basically a tougher baneblade with better shooting and a different main gun. How many baneblade variants are there? Gw doesn't have a problem balancing those. An astreus is way different and they addressed it in ca2019.

Martel732 wrote:
As I said, marines don't need 82 dreadnoughts. And the game needs fewer choices. I'm not a troll; these are my positions.

As a player who enjoys finally being able to play an all dreadnought army thanks to 8th ed? I disagree with you.

The more variations & types of dreads GW/FW produce, the better. It means I can vary my force game to game - not to win, not for some advantage, but simply for varieties sake.
I've got RT era dreads, 2e+ metal dreads, plastic dreads, vet dreads, furiosos, all arm/weapon combos magnitized, contemptors, relic contemptors, deredeos, a leviatan, chaplains, several different characters, a tellimon sitting on the work bench.... Even one of those Primaris ones (I've not been impressed with it vs my others. But I like it's style.). & if I've forgotten a variety, assume I have it too.
So by all means GW, bring on some more dreads!

I don't enjoy such a silly army being viable. But whatever GW.

Martel732 wrote:
I suppose I don't like much like anything about this game anymore now that you mention it.

Then you should exit quietly for awhile.

Don't sell off your models, just put them in storage. Walk away & try some other games/hobbies. In a year or three or five? Check back.

ccs wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
As I said, marines don't need 82 dreadnoughts. And the game needs fewer choices. I'm not a troll; these are my positions.

As a player who enjoys finally being able to play an all dreadnought army thanks to 8th ed? I disagree with you.

The more variations & types of dreads GW/FW produce, the better. It means I can vary my force game to game - not to win, not for some advantage, but simply for varieties sake.
I've got RT era dreads, 2e+ metal dreads, plastic dreads, vet dreads, furiosos, all arm/weapon combos magnitized, contemptors, relic contemptors, deredeos, a leviatan, chaplains, several different characters, a tellimon sitting on the work bench.... Even one of those Primaris ones (I've not been impressed with it vs my others. But I like it's style.). & if I've forgotten a variety, assume I have it too.
So by all means GW, bring on some more dreads!

My personal issue with FW dreads is that they are way better than the regular options and thus push those out of the game. I haven't seen anyone picking ironclads, venerable or regular dreads or even the new redemptor over deredro and leviathan for game reasons in a long time.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't enjoy such a silly army being viable. But whatever GW.

Oh the genesis of my wanting to play an all dread force is backed up in the fluff. Way back in 3rd (or was it early 4th?) there was a story in either WD or that eras CA about a force of 9 dreads holding the field. Sweet! Dreads are one of my favorite models. And a 9 dread force is really easy to paint up & transport. Unfortunately the official rules of the day wouldn't accommodate that. So I've been waiting along time.

And if my dreadforce is viable? So are your choppy BA.

They should make more general/abstract datasheets for dreads and terminators and maybe even some of the other units there are FW/HH options for so you can use any dread chassi you want but there are only rules for like 3 different versions instead of the 10 or so we have now. Then they can make everything viable and also have great variation in looks. People buy FW for the looks mostly except some rare cases for power but those are as often chinacast anyway.

I love the old dread models with 1 melee weapon and 1 ranged weapon but they are quite bad and you dont see them often anymore since mortis, contemptor, leviathan, redemptor and invictor are just superior in every way except for the character variants. But they are only taken because you cant target them with shooting, not because they are actually good at advancing up the board and fight in melee from their own stats and rules. Its only the character Keyword that is good for the points.

I mean I have plenty of army builds I find silly and don't enjoy, but wanting all of a certain thing gone because it's not my thing seems a bit poor taste eh ? As well FW is more than just dreads you realize.

I'll say I used to run a heavy dread force back in 4th ed as you could run an iron hands like list with a master of the forge commander and then use dreads in elites and heavy support and I'm one of the people who did. So you could say I like my dreads and have some in near every marine army I have, which is a few.

Klickor wrote:
They should make more general/abstract datasheets for dreads and terminators and maybe even some of the other units there are FW/HH options for so you can use any dread chassi you want but there are only rules for like 3 different versions instead of the 10 or so we have now. Then they can make everything viable and also have great variation in looks. People buy FW for the looks mostly except some rare cases for power but those are as often chinacast anyway.

I love the old dread models with 1 melee weapon and 1 ranged weapon but they are quite bad and you dont see them often anymore since mortis, contemptor, leviathan, redemptor and invictor are just superior in every way except for the character variants. But they are only taken because you cant target them with shooting, not because they are actually good at advancing up the board and fight in melee from their own stats and rules. Its only the character Keyword that is good for the points.

Ok, suppose gw does that. Should they do that for other families of units? There are 8 baneblade variants in the Astra Militarum codex alone, not counting fw models. Should those be reduced? What about the seven variants of leman russ? Daemon engines?

This is off topic still despite a mod warning. Make a new thread to discuss FW. Did the correct points for GSC Neophytes not drop with the latest PA? So the errata is still required?

Perhaps they’re saving it for the March FAQ, in that case? Maybe the changes are more significant than previously expected.

No point costs, yet I didn't expect the point costs in it as that would mean they would have known they screwed up CA from way back and not saying anything would have been crazy.

Errata still needed, and if they are saving it for March, I just shake my head it took them so long to get around to it and if its such a huge fix needed why would they even charge for such a broken product ? I hear the missions half of the book is cool but why not half the price and just make the point changes free, I'd be thrilled with that if the missions/game half of the release is always quality they'll still sell well.

Ah; two weeks, four months - is there really any difference?

 Jidmah wrote:

ccs wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
As I said, marines don't need 82 dreadnoughts. And the game needs fewer choices. I'm not a troll; these are my positions.

As a player who enjoys finally being able to play an all dreadnought army thanks to 8th ed? I disagree with you.

The more variations & types of dreads GW/FW produce, the better. It means I can vary my force game to game - not to win, not for some advantage, but simply for varieties sake.
I've got RT era dreads, 2e+ metal dreads, plastic dreads, vet dreads, furiosos, all arm/weapon combos magnitized, contemptors, relic contemptors, deredeos, a leviatan, chaplains, several different characters, a tellimon sitting on the work bench.... Even one of those Primaris ones (I've not been impressed with it vs my others. But I like it's style.). & if I've forgotten a variety, assume I have it too.
So by all means GW, bring on some more dreads!

My personal issue with FW dreads is that they are way better than the regular options and thus push those out of the game. I haven't seen anyone picking ironclads, venerable or regular dreads or even the new redemptor over deredro and leviathan for game reasons in a long time.

Ven Dreads see use here and there, but is the real issue that FW Dreads are too good, or that the codex Dreads are overall garbage? It's always been the latter. Take their Relic Contemptors for example. If you want a melee Dread, the last thing you want is a degrading movement. Guess what the melee centric Codex Contemtor and Primaris Dread lose as they lose wounds? Movement!

It's a bit of both really.

March FAQ? Did everyone forget that became the April FAQ and are having unrealistic FAQ release expectations or did I miss something?

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Ah; two weeks, four months - is there really any difference?

Four months is the new two weeks, thought we all knew that.

Edit: I did forget that FAQ thing is always delayed now, well there we go. Begun this April wait has.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
I mean I have plenty of army builds I find silly and don't enjoy, but wanting all of a certain thing gone because it's not my thing seems a bit poor taste eh ? As well FW is more than just dreads you realize.

I'll say I used to run a heavy dread force back in 4th ed as you could run an iron hands like list with a master of the forge commander and then use dreads in elites and heavy support and I'm one of the people who did. So you could say I like my dreads and have some in near every marine army I have, which is a few.

I think some army such as a full dread force are fine as a for fun thing, but really screw with the game balance as a whole outside of that.

Really they should encourage these sort of army with a core and support idea to design, or risk pushing the game more into bland specialty army’s that push more at the game design towards breaking.

Back in the day I'd have agreed but now with how the game works, full dread games don't break the game at all. They are basically just big infantry for most purposes. Though this isn't the time or place to keep up this Dread talk lest we draw down the wrath from above.

Apple fox wrote:
I think some army such as a full dread force are fine as a for fun thing, but really screw with the game balance as a whole outside of that.

Like an all Stormtrooper army would, if you had the HQ options to make it a reality?

Yeah them all storm trooper armies, they give me the creeps. That's why I made one.

Apple fox wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:
I mean I have plenty of army builds I find silly and don't enjoy, but wanting all of a certain thing gone because it's not my thing seems a bit poor taste eh ? As well FW is more than just dreads you realize.

I'll say I used to run a heavy dread force back in 4th ed as you could run an iron hands like list with a master of the forge commander and then use dreads in elites and heavy support and I'm one of the people who did. So you could say I like my dreads and have some in near every marine army I have, which is a few.

I think some army such as a full dread force are fine as a for fun thing, but really screw with the game balance as a whole outside of that.

Really they should encourage these sort of army with a core and support idea to design, or risk pushing the game more into bland specialty army’s that push more at the game design towards breaking.

Honestly, the all dreads army as Fun as it is, is mostly gw's fault due to slots for roles beeing basically available freely . Which is generally a symptom of the failings of the underlying detachment system.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Yeah them all storm trooper armies, they give me the creeps. That's why I made one.

Laughs in mechanized r&h.



Then remembers i ain't have any trait or special rule..

Seems staying on topic is really difficult for some people so I am locking this. Feel free to start a new thread when the errata comes out.