I mean, I think its pretty obvious the last 4 codexes are on a whole new level.
Makes you wonder if it was really necessary to nerf pain engines into oblivion or to have wyches and BB at 12/15.
Would you rather have a BB or a purestrain lol?
I'm not aware of what they did to pain engines. I never take them as covens are mostly not my style. Actually i used to run wracks and grotesques but i haven't touched them with the recent book.
Absolutely agreed on wyches and the cost to upgrade each of the 3 troops to their elite version. Sad thing is pre-points increase i was thinking of using them more but increasing the cost of raiders and wyches makes that reality less likely. I was thinking of DS'ing two units of 20 (40 total) with webway portals and red grief for charge re-rolls but that's probably not as good as i'm planning. New list i made feels like it'd be wonky but i wanted something different to the 24 reavers i usually run and i never take hellions due to force of habit when they were absolute trash.
Scourge mostly suck and every time i try them out again they still suck in the same non-durable way but i may try them out again.
I agree Raiders seem ridiculously expensive now. I like reavers and Raiders but these days both seem super expensive. A unit of 12 reavers with heat lances is about 300 pts and a unit of warriors decked out with gear in a raider with all the gear you'd want to give it is twice the cost of a dark lance ravager. Just absurd stuff. I suppose the anti-infantry firepower is ok-ish and reavers have the speed but no ability for turn one charge makes the supposedly fastest faction lag behind Tyranids with the Monster Mash (or even genestealers) build every Nid player seems to be running.
@drager: I'm not aware of anything with harlies lately but aren't they usually like a better wych cult? At one point their base troops were better than incubi too if i recall. I'm not sure what the current case may be.
I mean, I think its pretty obvious the last 4 codexes are on a whole new level.
Makes you wonder if it was really necessary to nerf pain engines into oblivion or to have wyches and BB at 12/15.
Would you rather have a BB or a purestrain lol?
I'm not aware of what they did to pain engines. I never take them as covens are mostly not my style. Actually i used to run wracks and grotesques but i haven't touched them with the recent book.
Absolutely agreed on wyches and the cost to upgrade each of the 3 troops to their elite version. Sad thing is pre-points increase i was thinking of using them more but increasing the cost of raiders and wyches makes that reality less likely. I was thinking of DS'ing two units of 20 (40 total) with webway portals and red grief for charge re-rolls but that's probably not as good as i'm planning. New list i made feels like it'd be wonky but i wanted something different to the 24 reavers i usually run and i never take hellions due to force of habit when they were absolute trash.
Scourge mostly suck and every time i try them out again they still suck in the same non-durable way but i may try them out again.
I agree Raiders seem ridiculously expensive now. I like reavers and Raiders but these days both seem super expensive. A unit of 12 reavers with heat lances is about 300 pts and a unit of warriors decked out with gear in a raider with all the gear you'd want to give it is twice the cost of a dark lance ravager. Just absurd stuff. I suppose the anti-infantry firepower is ok-ish and reavers have the speed but no ability for turn one charge makes the supposedly fastest faction lag behind Tyranids with the Monster Mash (or even genestealers) build every Nid player seems to be running.
@drager: I'm not aware of anything with harlies lately but aren't they usually like a better wych cult? At one point their base troops were better than incubi too if i recall. I'm not sure what the current case may be.
P-Engines lost core
I use Scourges a lot 80pts for 4D6 Shots to take focus off, or 60pts to DS and action.
Wyches should be 11pts, Wracks should be 10pts, and Kabals 7pts.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I am for sure going to be adding some Quins to my list but a small Light force for shooting and secondaries, I would rather use Kabals for shooting but they are awful.
I think the codex cost for the three troops are fine actually. In what world would a wych be worth even 11? They have none existent shooting and are only marginally durable in melee, but generally only by hitting hard first, the 4++ isn't really that great with T3 and 1W.
DE infantry already traded fine, the armies play style just enabled it to score quickly and efficiently in 9th. Now that the units are no longer efficient at all, they score then get tabled and lose to any of the recent releases.
I personally think they should wind back the patches on Sisters, Admech, Orks and DE and simply buff the last remaining armies as they are released and drop points to the marine and Necrons from earlier. Would be much simpler and would make the meta much more interesting.
Red Corsair wrote: I think the codex cost for the three troops are fine actually. In what world would a wych be worth even 11? They have none existent shooting and are only marginally durable in melee, but generally only by hitting hard first, the 4++ isn't really that great with T3 and 1W.
DE infantry already traded fine, the armies play style just enabled it to score quickly and efficiently in 9th. Now that the units are no longer efficient at all, they score then get tabled and lose to any of the recent releases.
I personally think they should wind back the patches on Sisters, Admech, Orks and DE and simply buff the last remaining armies as they are released and drop points to the marine and Necrons from earlier. Would be much simpler and would make the meta much more interesting.
Admech and Orks were tabling players turn 1... please god no.
Given that Shuriken weapons are all at leastAP-1, and that even Fleshborers are now S5 AP-1, does anyone else feel Splinter weapons got the short end of the stick?
Amishprn86 wrote: Admech and Orks were tabling players turn 1... please god no.
I know Admech was strong but how were Orks tabling people on turn 1?
vipoid wrote: Given that Shuriken weapons are all at leastAP-1, and that even Fleshborers are now S5 AP-1, does anyone else feel Splinter weapons got the short end of the stick?
Amishprn86 wrote: Admech and Orks were tabling players turn 1... please god no.
I know Admech was strong but how were Orks tabling people on turn 1?
Basically max Buggies, 4 flyers, Bikes, and it was Freebooterz, it literally killed 1500pts turn 1 against DE and Admech 2 games in a row at SoCal GT. That and Admech is why Flyers went to 2 per army, and also why Buggies got heavily Ro3 on them all and not per datasheet.
I made yet another list. It might be a little janky due to Dark Technomancer Venoms rather than Raiders.
Spoiler:
Realspace Raiders Battalion
Kabal of Obsidian Rose
Archon
-husk.
-s. pistol
Warriors x5
Ravager
-d. lance x3
Ravager
-d. lance x3
Ravager
-d. lance x3
----
Succubus; +1T
-agon.
-a. glaive
Wyches x5; +1 T
Reavers x12; +1T
-h. lance x4
-g. talons x4
Reavers x12; +1T
-h. lance x4
-g. talons x4
-------
Dark Technomancers
Haemonculus
-s. pistol
-tools
Wracks x5
-osse.
-h. rifle
*venom
-s. cannon x2
Wracks x5
-osse.
-h. rifle
*venom
-s. cannon x2
Wracks x5
-osse.
-h. rifle
*venom
-s. cannon x2
Incubi x10
*raider
-d. lance x1
-c. snares
--------
This is a 2,000 pts list and i might do a bit of fixing up to see if it's right.
I just made it so it'll probably suck but if so i might try dissie raiders instead or something. It's very new so untested. I'm unsure which wych cult to go for as of this moment.
If you're using a Kabal just for Ravagers, a patrol of Harlequins might work better instead.
Voidweavers and Ravagers have pretty similar relative offence and defense (just take 3 voidweavers instead of 2 Ravagers), and Archons and Troupe Masters also preform similarly. But instead of a cheap & inoffensive Kabalite, you can have a Troupe of "Bloodbrides but 2pts each cheaper", or "Incubi with invulnerable saves". Can't use raiders, but Skyweavers are just better & cheaper venoms.
If you're not taking a squad of artillery Trueborn, or a Court of the Archon for To the Last secondary , I think Kabals are currently just outmuscled by Harlequins at the moment :(
Yeah i tried the list i showed and was wanting to post sooner (couldn't because i didn't want to double post) to relay my game vs a big nid monster list (Crusher Stampede). He got like triple my score and it was a pretty nasty monster list. I probably should've shot him off objectives but it'd have left my forces more destroyed. He rolled a lot of successful inv. saves though.
I'm trying a new list now with void raven bombers this time.
I played a 2000 points list and won with pure dark eldar. I had real space raiders detachment: Kabal of the Obsidian Rose, covens dark technomancers, wych cult with test of skill (+1 to wound monsters and vehicles in melee I think)and precise killers (5 and 6s cause an extra -1 ap in melee).
He had a tau army: tide walls, riptide, ghostkeels, a bomber, 3 heroes, two units of three flamer crisis suits each which he had to wait for turn 3 to get them in since I blocked off swathes of the table for ds units to enter. Those crisis suits alone likely did far more than anything else he used against me.
At the end of the game I killed the hammerhead, the riptide, the bomber, the ghost keel, a piranha and some various troops as well as 3 of the crisis suits. The 3 crisis suits and the railgun structure platform could potentially down a lot but that’s was all his remaking firepower. I wasn’t dealing much better with 3 ravagers with one almost dead, some troops, all my hqs and a fairly injured dissie raider with dark technomancers.
All in all I considerably outscored him and I feel I had to be super careful doing it to whereas he sounded like he was making all sorts of errors. Since the is the first win vs tau I’ve had in forever I’d call that a success.
My army list was two units of 12 reavers with 4 heat lances and 2 grav talons each for 24 bikes total. I also have 15 hellions which do real well in speed and combat in turn 2 since you can advance, shoot and do nasty melee vs monsters. I also had the 3 triple dark lance ravagers. Finally the wracks rode in the raiders you see I feel dark technomancers on dissie weapons as if they’re some sort of doomsday weapon. Everything else in my list I used to ruin possible deep strikes in my territory or rather attacking something valuable. Shockingly he waited to ds in turn 3 even having taken first turn and I wonder if he would’ve done it if he’d have hurt me more earlier.
Haven't been on Dakka in a bit (Just so old school now lol).
Army of Renown is out, getting my copy Tuesday as I had Covid for the past week and 1/2. Will let you know after a couple games if I really like it or not.
@amishprn86: It might make you happy to know this entire tactics thread basically died while you were gone. Don’t let it get to your head too much but apparently without you this thread goes nowhere.
So on the plus side my tactics have improved. I’ve used terrain to hide units better and managed to beat a tau player not using a competitive list. I also killed 8 of 12 carnifexes in a specific list with old one eye as the leader.
So I am getting better and think 3 units of 12 reavers with heat lances and +1 bs with dark lance ravagers and 2 void ravens with void lances will help me win more games with the absurd 0+ armor saves and -1 damage popping up all over the freaking place.
flamingkillamajig wrote: @amishprn86: It might make you happy to know this entire tactics thread basically died while you were gone. Don’t let it get to your head too much but apparently without you this thread goes nowhere.
So on the plus side my tactics have improved. I’ve used terrain to hide units better and managed to beat a tau player not using a competitive list. I also killed 8 of 12 carnifexes in a specific list with old one eye as the leader.
So I am getting better and think 3 units of 12 reavers with heat lances and +1 bs with dark lance ravagers and 2 void ravens with void lances will help me win more games with the absurd 0+ armor saves and -1 damage popping up all over the freaking place.
What do you think Amish?
Nah its not a bother to me, I am on Discord groups. So much better to talk with. I only stop in at dakka like once a week or month anymore. The forum structure just isn't good anymore imo. It does have it perks for sure but way to hard to have a conversation with people. Long forum posts are better, but no one really does that here anymore anyways.
I personally can't use any of our Flyers, my meta would just shoot them down T1. Flyers are heavily meta area dependent.
I might try a discord group myself or Facebook dark eldar group.
I completely understand your point for aircraft but my other option was probably dark technomancers with dissie raiders and honestly I’d rather go either void ravens or dark lance raiders with warriors wielding a dark lance and 2 blasters.
Armor of contempt mixed with cover is just obnoxious as is -1 to incoming damage and 0+ armor saves. Incubi just come in too slow and don’t often do 3 flat damage. All of our melee isn’t solid enough and that forces us to use lances against all good armor on units.
I like incubi but they feel so fragile. 1 wound and toughness 3 even with a 3+ save just feels frail. Also it’s much slower than hellions which I usually make t5 and are fast enough to go into cover, improve their saves and go out of line of sight.
The issue to all this is I like hellions but when -1 to damage is all over the place and -1 ap vs 0+ armor is not enough they tend to be much more garbage than reavers even in melee. Honestly I only take reavers for the speed and heat lances with 2+ to bs is great. They’re also surprisingly durable and the non heat lance bikes are basically just meat shields or ablative wounds for heat lance ones.
Anyway I still think either void ravens or warriors with anti tank in raiders are my go to strategy now. I wonder how impressive 36 bikes would look like fielded. I regularly field 24 and people used to think that was a sight to see.
Isn't that literally the only change our points system got? It's better than a negative i suppose but it only made my list cheaper by 5 points since i only take 5 wyches.
-----
Just played against tau today and the combos taken were just broken. There wasn't enough terrain and i couldn't out-deploy him too easily and both contributed to massive pain for me since he got first turn and proceeded to wipe out between half to 2/3 of my army before i even got to do anything with it. The few vehicles i had left were mostly half dead (3 of 6 lived but barely), one of my bike units of 12 was entirely wiped out but just barely and i lost about 11 of my 15 hellions. The rest of the game was basically where i couldn't bring it back and i surrendered after my turn 2 i think.
Tau is broken and needs a nerf. That said going 2nd, being unable to out-deploy his army by a significant margin (allowing my units to hide from his) and lack of cover did me in. That said i feel like it's bad on GW to make you pretty much lose just because you went 2nd and couldn't out-deploy your opponent hard enough with one of their factions.
Isn't that literally the only change our points system got? It's better than a negative i suppose but it only made my list cheaper by 5 points since i only take 5 wyches.
I'm afraid that is indeed the only change.
- No other unit has seen a change or point drop to account for AoC.
- None of our HQs has seen a point drop to account for the CP change, despite all of them being wholly dependant on artefacts and warlord traits to even be functional.
- None of the underpowered units (e.g. Khymerae, Clawed Fiends, Lhamaeans, Medusae) have seen any buffs or point reductions to account for the fact that no one ever takes them.
- Aside from the 1pt drop on Wyches, none of the prior nerfs have been reversed. The Succubus is still stupidly expensive for a melee character with a glorified power sword, Bloodbrides and Trueborn each cost ridiculous amounts, Talos and Cronos are still lacking CORE.
- Oh and either the writers of the Haemonculi Coteries were blissfully unaware of the upcoming CP changes or else that supplement was the very definition of Planned Obsolescence.
Basically just further evidence to my suspicion that no one making changes to Dark Eldar actually plays the army; they only ever play against it.
Just played against tau today and the combos taken were just broken. There wasn't enough terrain and i couldn't out-deploy him too easily and both contributed to massive pain for me since he got first turn and proceeded to wipe out between half to 2/3 of my army before i even got to do anything with it. The few vehicles i had left were mostly half dead (3 of 6 lived but barely), one of my bike units of 12 was entirely wiped out but just barely and i lost about 11 of my 15 hellions. The rest of the game was basically where i couldn't bring it back and i surrendered after my turn 2 i think.
Tau is broken and needs a nerf. That said going 2nd, being unable to out-deploy his army by a significant margin (allowing my units to hide from his) and lack of cover did me in. That said i feel like it's bad on GW to make you pretty much lose just because you went 2nd and couldn't out-deploy your opponent hard enough with one of their factions.
Not that I disagree but I think Tau are just an awful concept in general.
Isn't that literally the only change our points system got? It's better than a negative i suppose but it only made my list cheaper by 5 points since i only take 5 wyches.
-----
Just played against tau today and the combos taken were just broken. There wasn't enough terrain and i couldn't out-deploy him too easily and both contributed to massive pain for me since he got first turn and proceeded to wipe out between half to 2/3 of my army before i even got to do anything with it. The few vehicles i had left were mostly half dead (3 of 6 lived but barely), one of my bike units of 12 was entirely wiped out but just barely and i lost about 11 of my 15 hellions. The rest of the game was basically where i couldn't bring it back and i surrendered after my turn 2 i think.
Tau is broken and needs a nerf. That said going 2nd, being unable to out-deploy his army by a significant margin (allowing my units to hide from his) and lack of cover did me in. That said i feel like it's bad on GW to make you pretty much lose just because you went 2nd and couldn't out-deploy your opponent hard enough with one of their factions.
Well i just went through a rather possibly embarrassing loss vs an imperial guard player. He got first turn, had armor of contempt on his tanks, my anti-tank was middling if not poor and he had about 10 tanks with a spearhead formation including 2 tank commanders.
I took about 5 leman russ tanks out but the other 5 were a bit rough. He maybe had less than 10 pts more than me in the end. He had a lot in his favor even with me using my transports to keep his 2 blast weapon lemans from shooting at me for 3 turns or so.
I would suggest that the answer to that matchup involves tying up his tanks and winning the primary game instead of trying to kill things you're not suited to kill.
flamingkillamajig wrote: Well i just went through a rather possibly embarrassing loss vs an imperial guard player. He got first turn, had armor of contempt on his tanks, my anti-tank was middling if not poor and he had about 10 tanks with a spearhead formation including 2 tank commanders.
I took about 5 leman russ tanks out but the other 5 were a bit rough. He maybe had less than 10 pts more than me in the end. He had a lot in his favor even with me using my transports to keep his 2 blast weapon lemans from shooting at me for 3 turns or so.
Honestly, just ram vehicles into their tanks and Laugh, -1 to hit (so 4+ or 5+ to hit) shooting you while in engagement range will easily keep your raiders/venoms a live most the time. You want to be aggressive vs guard.
flamingkillamajig wrote: Well i just went through a rather possibly embarrassing loss vs an imperial guard player. He got first turn, had armor of contempt on his tanks, my anti-tank was middling if not poor and he had about 10 tanks with a spearhead formation including 2 tank commanders.
I took about 5 leman russ tanks out but the other 5 were a bit rough. He maybe had less than 10 pts more than me in the end. He had a lot in his favor even with me using my transports to keep his 2 blast weapon lemans from shooting at me for 3 turns or so.
Honestly, just ram vehicles into their tanks and Laugh, -1 to hit (so 4+ or 5+ to hit) shooting you while in engagement range will easily keep your raiders/venoms a live most the time. You want to be aggressive vs guard.
Actually i did that with 2 of my raiders. I still lost but it tied up 2 of his tanks: one of which could only shoot a heavy bolter at me and the other which only had a lascannon it could shoot at me. The reason being he had blasts on all his weapons except one on each tank and it hurt him significantly.
As i said it still didn't do enough and i still lost by less than 10 pts.
---------
I'm planning on using 20 incubi and drazhar in another list btw.
I've been trying to read the tactics of other factions on this board and their builds as well as checking up codexes of my normal opponents in my local store meta (necrons, custodes, nids, eldar and a few others). I've got a long way to go and each book is packed with rules these days. Sometimes i miss the simplicity of 5th ed.
Aelthran wrote: I would suggest that the answer to that matchup involves tying up his tanks and winning the primary game instead of trying to kill things you're not suited to kill.
I did a bit which is why it was so close at all with so many factors going in his favor this time. Had i gone first as he said i would've likely won as i always do. That said i had about as many vehicles as he had tanks and it's not likely a bunch of them would've lived long in melee depending on how each leman russ was armed (some were triple heavy bolters). Also by the time i thought of bogging down the enemy vehicles with my empty raiders most of my other vehicles were dead.
So i played against necrons today. I killed most things except the silent king and the c'tan shard and then got wiped at the end of turn 5. He got close to 90 points and i got like 20 or 30 something. It's just hard to handle necrons for me. I need a new list.
I'm oddly thinking of a weird list to make just for fun. No patrols and no realspace raider detachments. It's gonna be one battalion and one outrider since we have way too many fast attack choices (mostly unaligned units like scourge or wych cult units). I will take max bikes with 2+ bs and heat lances all around. Probably not smart but probably a better thing than high cost raiders with cheap troops costing over 200 pts. I'm likely still going to take ravagers with dark lances and incubi. I'm just not sure how it'll go.
I'm probably eventually gonna bite the bullet and buy talos or forge world vehicles. There's gotta be something i can do.
Keep in mind my local meta of opponents i usually face have: guard (mostly vehicles list), nids (sometimes all carnifex build), eldar, necrons, tau and maybe custodes every so often.
So i played against necrons today. I killed most things except the silent king and the c'tan shard and then got wiped at the end of turn 5. He got close to 90 points and i got like 20 or 30 something. It's just hard to handle necrons for me. I need a new list.
I'm oddly thinking of a weird list to make just for fun. No patrols and no realspace raider detachments. It's gonna be one battalion and one outrider since we have way too many fast attack choices (mostly unaligned units like scourge or wych cult units). I will take max bikes with 2+ bs and heat lances all around. Probably not smart but probably a better thing than high cost raiders with cheap troops costing over 200 pts. I'm likely still going to take ravagers with dark lances and incubi. I'm just not sure how it'll go.
I'm probably eventually gonna bite the bullet and buy talos or forge world vehicles. There's gotta be something i can do.
Keep in mind my local meta of opponents i usually face have: guard (mostly vehicles list), nids (sometimes all carnifex build), eldar, necrons, tau and maybe custodes every so often.
Best to do against Necrons is kill everything else and play for points, TSK is way to hard for us to kill right now. Sadly Necrons literally have a 40VP Handicap right now, so it'll be hard to win against them anyways, hopefully this changes or play Tempest of War.
JNAProductions wrote: Remember you can’t double up on drugs until every one has been selected at least once.
I'm pretty sure they changed that this edition so that you can.
Not to my knowledge-but I am AFB at the moment.
Combat Drugs
Exotic chemical stimulants are widely used to heighten combat performance, despite the risk of a deadly overdose. Units with this ability gain additional abilities depending on which combat drugs they are using during this battle. Before the battle, determine what additional abilities are granted to each unit from your army with the Combat Drugs ability. You can select one of the abilities from the table below for that unit. Alternatively, you can randomly determine two abilities from the table for units with the Combat Drugs ability by rolling two D6 and looking up the result (if a double is rolled, roll both dice again until two different results are rolled). Combat Drug effects must be noted on your army roster. If you wish to randomly determine a units Combat Drugs abilities, simply write ‘Random’ on your roster.
Btw i'm thinking of making a new DE list with 36 bikes instead of 24. It's an odd list with an outrider detachment for wych cult (mostly bikes and/or scourge go here) and a kabal battalion (everything else goes here). I was hoping for 3 dark lance ravagers, bikes with 2+ BS and heat lances, maybe incubi, scourge for objectives or anti tank and finishing it off with warriors on foot for objective holding (raiders just cost too much for cheap infantry right now).
Sorry for the double post but i heard there was no rule against it and mods didn't really respond to that thread i made on it.
Anyway i went against death guard this time and lost by like 17 points. He had like 70 something points at the end i think.
Either way my issue with dark eldar is fighting against enemies with 4++ inv. saves and -1 to incoming damage. This once again hurt my incubi (which tends to suffer against -1 to incoming damage) and my anti tank (which isn't spam-able enough to take out 4++ inv. saves). We also don't have spammed high ap single damage attacks and our mortal wound spam is generally pretty bad.
So to say the least i'm extremely frustrated. Void mines don't seem to do enough with mortal wounds and i don't think i can get much mortal wounds with phantasm grenade launchers (even if i pushed a unit with grisly trophies near the enemy lowering leadership for pgl's mortal wounds). Also mortal wounds on bikes seems suicidal even with the once per turn move over a unit stratagem for mortal wounds.
All this combined is just too much to fight off and i really just have no idea what to do.
We have way too many enemy factions with armor of contempt, 4++ inv. saves, -1 for damage reduction or a combination of all the above.
flamingkillamajig wrote: Sorry for the double post but i heard there was no rule against it and mods didn't really respond to that thread i made on it.
Anyway i went against death guard this time and lost by like 17 points. He had like 70 something points at the end i think.
Either way my issue with dark eldar is fighting against enemies with 4++ inv. saves and -1 to incoming damage. This once again hurt my incubi (which tends to suffer against -1 to incoming damage) and my anti tank (which isn't spam-able enough to take out 4++ inv. saves). We also don't have spammed high ap single damage attacks and our mortal wound spam is generally pretty bad.
So to say the least i'm extremely frustrated. Void mines don't seem to do enough with mortal wounds and i don't think i can get much mortal wounds with phantasm grenade launchers (even if i pushed a unit with grisly trophies near the enemy lowering leadership for pgl's mortal wounds). Also mortal wounds on bikes seems suicidal even with the once per turn move over a unit stratagem for mortal wounds.
All this combined is just too much to fight off and i really just have no idea what to do.
We have way too many enemy factions with armor of contempt, 4++ inv. saves, -1 for damage reduction or a combination of all the above.
Back when DG was released and they were the top dawg... that 4++ inv. saves and -1 dmg was brutal, I cracked the code that regularly beat variations of DG lists.
Lots, and lots of Plasma Grenade Launchers (PGL) and grisly trophies.
Back them, my list were just spamming warriors and raiders, but in this new meta and price changes, I'm thinking of resurrecting this list, but with wyches. Not only wyches, but a horde of them:
+ Heavy Support +
Ravager: As Detachment (Kabal), 3x Dark Lance, Phantasm Grenade Launcher
Ravager: As Detachment (Kabal), 3x Dark Lance, Phantasm Grenade Launcher
+ Dedicated Transport +
Venom: As Detachment, Chain-snares, Grisly Trophies, Splinter Cannon, Twin splinter rifle
Venom: As Detachment, Chain-snares, Grisly Trophies, Splinter Cannon, Twin splinter rifle
Venom: As Detachment, Chain-snares, Grisly Trophies, Splinter Cannon, Twin splinter rifle
++ Patrol Detachment 0CP (Aeldari - Drukhari) ++
+ Configuration +
Detachment Command Cost
Obsession: Cult of Strife: The Spectacle of Murder
Raiding Forces - CP Refund
+ Stratagems +
Stratagem: Prizes from the Dark City
+ Dedicated Transport +
Raider: As Detachment, Dark Lance, Grisly Trophies, Phantasm Grenade Launcher
Raider: As Detachment, Dark Lance, Grisly Trophies, Phantasm Grenade Launcher
Raider: As Detachment, Dark Lance, Grisly Trophies, Phantasm Grenade Launcher
++ Patrol Detachment 0CP (Aeldari - Drukhari) ++
+ Configuration +
Detachment Command Cost
Obsession: Cult of Strife: The Spectacle of Murder
Raiding Forces - CP Refund
+ Dedicated Transport +
Raider: As Detachment, Dark Lance, Grisly Trophies, Phantasm Grenade Launcher
Raider: As Detachment, Dark Lance, Grisly Trophies, Phantasm Grenade Launcher
Raider: As Detachment, Dark Lance, Grisly Trophies, Phantasm Grenade Launcher
That's 17 PGL ranging from 17 - 51 shots to test for MWs.
9x 5man wych squads.
6x raiders with lances.
2x lance ravagers.
You're not going to get all 17 PGL lined up on one unit, but you could get 4 - 5 PGL per unit. (flat out the venoms to the target to debuff ld).
The vehicles are in a weird place right now, but I still like them as I can put my wyches in there when deploying (you must do this anyways) but disembark at T1 for additional movement. When everything's disembarked, that's 23 separate units hitting the table.
flamingkillamajig wrote: Sorry for the double post but i heard there was no rule against it and mods didn't really respond to that thread i made on it.
Anyway i went against death guard this time and lost by like 17 points. He had like 70 something points at the end i think.
Either way my issue with dark eldar is fighting against enemies with 4++ inv. saves and -1 to incoming damage. This once again hurt my incubi (which tends to suffer against -1 to incoming damage) and my anti tank (which isn't spam-able enough to take out 4++ inv. saves). We also don't have spammed high ap single damage attacks and our mortal wound spam is generally pretty bad.
So to say the least i'm extremely frustrated. Void mines don't seem to do enough with mortal wounds and i don't think i can get much mortal wounds with phantasm grenade launchers (even if i pushed a unit with grisly trophies near the enemy lowering leadership for pgl's mortal wounds). Also mortal wounds on bikes seems suicidal even with the once per turn move over a unit stratagem for mortal wounds.
All this combined is just too much to fight off and i really just have no idea what to do.
We have way too many enemy factions with armor of contempt, 4++ inv. saves, -1 for damage reduction or a combination of all the above.
Are we talking about the DG terminators? The good news is that they're expensive and slow. We can't really leverage our usual anti-marine weapons against them very effectively, but we can nickel and dime them with most of the rest of our codex. So wyches scratching away at them one wound at a time (blade artists lets us reduce their Sv by 1 on to-wound rolls of 6), splinter weapons that don't care about their high toughness, maybe some mortal wounds from mandrakes and PGL if you can avoid feeding them a good target. Basically, they have to roll 1s eventually. They're also a good target for alternating firing single lances and splinter weapons. So hit them with a raider lance, then finish off the model with some kabalites if he isn't dead. Then hit them with another dark lance. Then some more splinters. The invuln makes the lances significantly less good, but they're expensive enough to still not be a terrible lance target if you've already dealt with his tanks/Morty.
Alternatively, if they fail their charge out of deepstrike and they're not on an objective, you can probably just stay away from them.
flamingkillamajig wrote: Sorry for the double post but i heard there was no rule against it and mods didn't really respond to that thread i made on it.
Anyway i went against death guard this time and lost by like 17 points. He had like 70 something points at the end i think.
Either way my issue with dark eldar is fighting against enemies with 4++ inv. saves and -1 to incoming damage. This once again hurt my incubi (which tends to suffer against -1 to incoming damage) and my anti tank (which isn't spam-able enough to take out 4++ inv. saves). We also don't have spammed high ap single damage attacks and our mortal wound spam is generally pretty bad.
So to say the least i'm extremely frustrated. Void mines don't seem to do enough with mortal wounds and i don't think i can get much mortal wounds with phantasm grenade launchers (even if i pushed a unit with grisly trophies near the enemy lowering leadership for pgl's mortal wounds). Also mortal wounds on bikes seems suicidal even with the once per turn move over a unit stratagem for mortal wounds.
All this combined is just too much to fight off and i really just have no idea what to do.
We have way too many enemy factions with armor of contempt, 4++ inv. saves, -1 for damage reduction or a combination of all the above.
I feel your pain. I used to use Poisoned Tongue with spamming Splinter Cannons and Agonziers, splinter racks. Now it's not viable. I remade a list for the nastier meta we're in that features and many multi damage weapons as possible. It's been rather lethal so I'll share it to help you with ideas. No MW spam in it.
650 Obsidian Rose (Re-roll 1 wound per phase/+6"range to not pistols)
Archon w/Agonizer 70
10xKabalite w/2xBlasters 100
in Raider w/DC 100
5xIncubi 90
Ravager w/3xDL 130
RWJFighter w/2xDL 160
-----------------------------------
690 Obsidian Rose (Re-roll 1 wound per phase/+6"range to not pistols)
Archon w/Agonizer WLTrait-Ancient Evil-Fights Last
10xKabalite w/2xBlasters
in Raider w/DC
Ravager w/3xDL
Ravager w/3xDL
RWJFighter w/2xDL
----------------------------------
650 The Coven of 12 (-1 Ap to melee + actions and shoot)
Master Haemonculus WLTrait-Twisted Animator-D3 wracks restored
in Command Phase 90
flamingkillamajig wrote: Sorry for the double post but i heard there was no rule against it and mods didn't really respond to that thread i made on it.
Anyway i went against death guard this time and lost by like 17 points. He had like 70 something points at the end i think.
Either way my issue with dark eldar is fighting against enemies with 4++ inv. saves and -1 to incoming damage. This once again hurt my incubi (which tends to suffer against -1 to incoming damage) and my anti tank (which isn't spam-able enough to take out 4++ inv. saves). We also don't have spammed high ap single damage attacks and our mortal wound spam is generally pretty bad.
So to say the least i'm extremely frustrated. Void mines don't seem to do enough with mortal wounds and i don't think i can get much mortal wounds with phantasm grenade launchers (even if i pushed a unit with grisly trophies near the enemy lowering leadership for pgl's mortal wounds). Also mortal wounds on bikes seems suicidal even with the once per turn move over a unit stratagem for mortal wounds.
All this combined is just too much to fight off and i really just have no idea what to do.
We have way too many enemy factions with armor of contempt, 4++ inv. saves, -1 for damage reduction or a combination of all the above.
Back when DG was released and they were the top dawg... that 4++ inv. saves and -1 dmg was brutal, I cracked the code that regularly beat variations of DG lists.
Lots, and lots of Plasma Grenade Launchers (PGL) and grisly trophies.
Back them, my list were just spamming warriors and raiders, but in this new meta and price changes, I'm thinking of resurrecting this list, but with wyches. Not only wyches, but a horde of them:
+ Heavy Support +
Ravager: As Detachment (Kabal), 3x Dark Lance, Phantasm Grenade Launcher
Ravager: As Detachment (Kabal), 3x Dark Lance, Phantasm Grenade Launcher
+ Dedicated Transport +
Venom: As Detachment, Chain-snares, Grisly Trophies, Splinter Cannon, Twin splinter rifle
Venom: As Detachment, Chain-snares, Grisly Trophies, Splinter Cannon, Twin splinter rifle
Venom: As Detachment, Chain-snares, Grisly Trophies, Splinter Cannon, Twin splinter rifle
++ Patrol Detachment 0CP (Aeldari - Drukhari) ++
+ Configuration +
Detachment Command Cost
Obsession: Cult of Strife: The Spectacle of Murder
Raiding Forces - CP Refund
+ Stratagems +
Stratagem: Prizes from the Dark City
+ Dedicated Transport +
Raider: As Detachment, Dark Lance, Grisly Trophies, Phantasm Grenade Launcher
Raider: As Detachment, Dark Lance, Grisly Trophies, Phantasm Grenade Launcher
Raider: As Detachment, Dark Lance, Grisly Trophies, Phantasm Grenade Launcher
++ Patrol Detachment 0CP (Aeldari - Drukhari) ++
+ Configuration +
Detachment Command Cost
Obsession: Cult of Strife: The Spectacle of Murder
Raiding Forces - CP Refund
+ Dedicated Transport +
Raider: As Detachment, Dark Lance, Grisly Trophies, Phantasm Grenade Launcher
Raider: As Detachment, Dark Lance, Grisly Trophies, Phantasm Grenade Launcher
Raider: As Detachment, Dark Lance, Grisly Trophies, Phantasm Grenade Launcher
That's 17 PGL ranging from 17 - 51 shots to test for MWs.
9x 5man wych squads.
6x raiders with lances.
2x lance ravagers.
You're not going to get all 17 PGL lined up on one unit, but you could get 4 - 5 PGL per unit. (flat out the venoms to the target to debuff ld).
The vehicles are in a weird place right now, but I still like them as I can put my wyches in there when deploying (you must do this anyways) but disembark at T1 for additional movement. When everything's disembarked, that's 23 separate units hitting the table.
I feel like you’re on the right track but I still might use warriors in 5 man units with 1 blaster and 1 pgl. I would choose either obsidian rose or poisoned tongue. So here comes the fun part. I would use a venom the same way as you but I’d use dark creed venoms which do -1 to Ld in 6” and -1 to combat attrition. Now I know it might not be as effective vs marines in cover but then if you have poisoned tongue you get another -1 combat attrition for an enemy killed by a poisoned weapon.
Fully stacked you have an enemy having 7 leadership total and if they lose a 3-4 guys instantly they have to take combat attrition failing on 1,2 and 3 so half the unit could flee off the table realistically and you could score it with your dark eldar combat attrition secondary for an easy amount of points.
flamingkillamajig wrote: Sorry for the double post but i heard there was no rule against it and mods didn't really respond to that thread i made on it.
Anyway i went against death guard this time and lost by like 17 points. He had like 70 something points at the end i think.
Either way my issue with dark eldar is fighting against enemies with 4++ inv. saves and -1 to incoming damage. This once again hurt my incubi (which tends to suffer against -1 to incoming damage) and my anti tank (which isn't spam-able enough to take out 4++ inv. saves). We also don't have spammed high ap single damage attacks and our mortal wound spam is generally pretty bad.
So to say the least i'm extremely frustrated. Void mines don't seem to do enough with mortal wounds and i don't think i can get much mortal wounds with phantasm grenade launchers (even if i pushed a unit with grisly trophies near the enemy lowering leadership for pgl's mortal wounds). Also mortal wounds on bikes seems suicidal even with the once per turn move over a unit stratagem for mortal wounds.
All this combined is just too much to fight off and i really just have no idea what to do.
We have way too many enemy factions with armor of contempt, 4++ inv. saves, -1 for damage reduction or a combination of all the above.
Back when DG was released and they were the top dawg... that 4++ inv. saves and -1 dmg was brutal, I cracked the code that regularly beat variations of DG lists.
Lots, and lots of Plasma Grenade Launchers (PGL) and grisly trophies.
Back them, my list were just spamming warriors and raiders, but in this new meta and price changes, I'm thinking of resurrecting this list, but with wyches. Not only wyches, but a horde of them:
+ Heavy Support +
Ravager: As Detachment (Kabal), 3x Dark Lance, Phantasm Grenade Launcher
Ravager: As Detachment (Kabal), 3x Dark Lance, Phantasm Grenade Launcher
+ Dedicated Transport +
Venom: As Detachment, Chain-snares, Grisly Trophies, Splinter Cannon, Twin splinter rifle
Venom: As Detachment, Chain-snares, Grisly Trophies, Splinter Cannon, Twin splinter rifle
Venom: As Detachment, Chain-snares, Grisly Trophies, Splinter Cannon, Twin splinter rifle
++ Patrol Detachment 0CP (Aeldari - Drukhari) ++
+ Configuration +
Detachment Command Cost
Obsession: Cult of Strife: The Spectacle of Murder
Raiding Forces - CP Refund
+ Stratagems +
Stratagem: Prizes from the Dark City
+ Dedicated Transport +
Raider: As Detachment, Dark Lance, Grisly Trophies, Phantasm Grenade Launcher
Raider: As Detachment, Dark Lance, Grisly Trophies, Phantasm Grenade Launcher
Raider: As Detachment, Dark Lance, Grisly Trophies, Phantasm Grenade Launcher
++ Patrol Detachment 0CP (Aeldari - Drukhari) ++
+ Configuration +
Detachment Command Cost
Obsession: Cult of Strife: The Spectacle of Murder
Raiding Forces - CP Refund
+ Dedicated Transport +
Raider: As Detachment, Dark Lance, Grisly Trophies, Phantasm Grenade Launcher
Raider: As Detachment, Dark Lance, Grisly Trophies, Phantasm Grenade Launcher
Raider: As Detachment, Dark Lance, Grisly Trophies, Phantasm Grenade Launcher
That's 17 PGL ranging from 17 - 51 shots to test for MWs.
9x 5man wych squads.
6x raiders with lances.
2x lance ravagers.
You're not going to get all 17 PGL lined up on one unit, but you could get 4 - 5 PGL per unit. (flat out the venoms to the target to debuff ld).
The vehicles are in a weird place right now, but I still like them as I can put my wyches in there when deploying (you must do this anyways) but disembark at T1 for additional movement. When everything's disembarked, that's 23 separate units hitting the table.
I feel like you’re on the right track but I still might use warriors in 5 man units with 1 blaster and 1 pgl. I would choose either obsidian rose or poisoned tongue. So here comes the fun part. I would use a venom the same way as you but I’d use dark creed venoms which do -1 to Ld in 6” and -1 to combat attrition. Now I know it might not be as effective vs marines in cover but then if you have poisoned tongue you get another -1 combat attrition for an enemy killed by a poisoned weapon.
Fully stacked you have an enemy having 7 leadership total and if they lose a 3-4 guys instantly they have to take combat attrition failing on 1,2 and 3 so half the unit could flee off the table realistically and you could score it with your dark eldar combat attrition secondary for an easy amount of points.
Another thing I just realized... DG ignores combat attrition modifers. (Thousand Sons ignores them).
So... to your point, a horde of wyches isn't that great against those armies. Maybe a Kabal list to maximize darklight weaponry is still optimal against these list.
I made a list but it's 1 kabal of Obsidian Rose battalion, 1 KoOR patrol and 1 patrol of dark creed covens.
The list is basically 3 triple dark lance ravagers, 8 five man warrior squads with blaster and pgl with 2 in each raider for 4 dark lance raiders with pgl (obsidian rose gives pgl and blasters 24" range and i can re-roll to wound each blaster and the raider's dark lance due to each raider being 3 units), 3 venoms with 5 wracks with double liquifiers each (each acothyst can take a liquifier as well).
Sadly this will all only leave me with 1 command point at game start and 2 after the first command phase but that's probably enough.
So the game went ok but I think we didn’t realize the no mans land objectives were sticky objectives. Basically if core troops or something took it they’d hold it even if shot off.
This would’ve helped my opponent a whole lot and would’ve hurt me. By the end of turn 4 we were within a couple points of each other but he was going to win regardless.
—————
Anyway I think next time I’m gonna go heavy on dark lances (at least 21) and void lances (max of 4) (scourge, ravagers and void ravens) but I may use my reavers with heat lances too (8 to 12). Mortal wounds aren’t spammed enough to really hurt death guard well enough. Not to mention they can use a stratagem that makes a whole unit unable to be shot at unless they’re the closest unit to the firing unit.
Ok so my newest list went against death guard and I scored 50 something points and he got 70 something points but I wasn’t keeping track of primary objectives much. The map didn’t help me because it was sticky objectives. This means if an obsec unit holds an area it remains in the owning player’s control until you hop on the objective with the other player’s unit of any kind. This didn’t help because almost his entire army was obsec and only a few units of mine were and he had the durable melee force.
Anyway the scores were tied up except for primary objectives. Had I known my scourge were in danger due to rules I wasn’t aware of I might’ve been able to get a win out of the game.
God day. I blew the dust of my DE models and started making some lists. I played them bakc in 5th 6th editon and the Baron Satonyx build is not only bad, it is non existent. (It was a huge ball of zoo creatures with heavy cover and fall back and charge.)
I want to use 2 big units of reavers. How ever how many ravagers do people run in list? I used to run 3, and I can't fit 3 in a lits because of points or because I run out of heavy support slots. A lot of the lists I see run no ravagers. In 5th editon the 3 ravagers where some of the most mandatory units.
Niiai wrote: I want to use 2 big units of reavers. How ever how many ravagers do people run in list? I used to run 3, and I can't fit 3 in a lits because of points or because I run out of heavy support slots. A lot of the lists I see run no ravagers. In 5th editon the 3 ravagers where some of the most mandatory units.
I've been going with 3 Ravagers pretty consistently.
The big change with Ravagers is that now a triple lance Ravager is back to being a reasonable option compared to a triple dissie Ravager.
Dissies lost a step due to a lot of infantry and monstrous characters getting -1 damage so your Dissies only do 1 damage a pop which tones down how well they chew through things. I personally still do Dissies, but it starts to make a lot of sense to put them on your Raiders, and you should be mindful of your poison shooting as an option against those units, and the Dark Lance is still really good.
I'm not the biggest fan of Reavers, but with the ability to double up which drugs you assign you can get a lot of nice use out of them.
You can get a very maxed out squad of Reavers for around 285 points, so even if you're wanting a ton of toys that's around 570 for Reavers, which leaves you 1430 to buy an HQ, Troops, and 3 Ravagers.
Doing a Succubus, 3 minimal Wych squads in Venoms, and 3 Lance Ravagers and the two giant Reaver blobs runs you around 1430 total, which leaves space for some upgrades and expansion to the Wyches and Venoms and still plenty of points to fluff out the rest of the list I would think (presuming you're playing 2000, but looks like you could weasel it in at 1500 so...).
Are you committing to trying to build them into something else specific in the list? What's clogging up the list for you so you can't fit the Ravagers you want? You could even play around with Patrol detachments if you want Obsessions on your Ravagers.
Thanks for good responses. I do jot think anything is 'clogging' up the list. It is more a matter of buying good stuff and then your run out of points.
My correct list seems like like this. I have the models, but jot played with it yet.
To clarify - I was neither advocating for or against 5 man wych squads, I was just playing around to show you how you could fit 3 Ravagers and 2 max size Reaver squads into a list without too much difficulty. I personally run my Wyches usually in squads of 7 since the Succubus is usually killy enough that the Wyches are there more as defense for her and casual support.
I think your list looks okay, though the issue I see is that you seem to have a lot of expensive units. I have found a lot of value in having some relatively cheap infantry units (favoring Troops, though Mandrakes and Scourges have some use for this also). These cheap units serve some good value in camping objectives/claiming secondaries which can help you win games.
Are you using the Reavers as a shooting threat, an assault threat, or both? If you're not assaulting with them or using the eviscerating fly by stratagem you would probably benefit from breaking them up into three units.
Is anybody else using 30 incubi with an archon and drazhar in 3 raiders? Honestly I think it often carries my games now. It’s basically an auto include every time at this point.
In my 2nd last game vs squats one unit of 10 incubi boosted by one archon brought their land fortress from full health down to one wound.
My last game where I proxied the 3rd squad of ten I took out loads of leman Russ with them (this is with the new imperial guard book btw). I only lost the game by 3 pts (60 to 63) and I went second. Had the game gone to turn 5 I’d have likely won. I also could’ve chosen a better 3rd secondary because I was mostly ahead on points in every category (still using nephilim book) except the 3rd secondary.
By the end of the game he had 2 lemans left (one tank commander), 0 cp and no way to get more CP, one artillery with 3 to 4 wounds left and 2 of the 3 vehicles were stuck in melee. I was also decimated but drazhar was on his last wound, I had a singular incubi squad leader, an archon with shadow field up and maybe one warrior left.
It really was close. Had I grabbed raise the banners or scored more points on turn 5 I could’ve won easily esp. since I’d get objectives held at game end. All I’d need to do in my turn is place myself on objectives and end turn since I went 2nd.
Praise be! With Armour of Contempt gone, all of our AP 1/2 units become a lot more relevant again.
Wyches? Back on the menu, especially now that Harlequins have been nerfed to not just be straight up better in every circumstance. Hellions? Mandrakes? Reavers? All more likely to make it onto the field now.
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: Praise be! With Armour of Contempt gone, all of our AP 1/2 units become a lot more relevant again.
Wyches? Back on the menu, especially now that Harlequins have been nerfed to not just be straight up better in every circumstance. Hellions? Mandrakes? Reavers? All more likely to make it onto the field now.
Yeah i don't understand why AP -1 was nerfed so freaking hard and why they decided to give it to all our units. AP -1 was basically AP 0 to anything with armor of contempt and in light cover it likely got a 2+ armor save. Also for some unknown reason most of our stuff maxed at AP -1 and then was either AP -3 or AP -4. There was no spammable middle ground.
Back on the story of incubi with an archon and drazhar in 3 raiders i think you guys should really use them. Sure likely one raider will get punked early and you'll lose almost 10 incubi in a unit but the other units should be safe and will do their job ridiculously well. Tanks will fear incubi provided you take the overwatch with empty raiders charging the tanks first.
Played my first few games with Drazhar and Incubi in a Dark Creed Detachment with Grisley Trophies Venoms, and lord was it good.
Warlord Drazhar is incredibly killy, he was smacking 10+ wounds off Knights a turn, and killing whole units of Custodes in 2 activations. And his Incubi buddies weren't that far behind.
Pair him with a Precision Blows Succubus in an allied Wych patrol, and I had 2 bad ass characters completely dictating the game. Highly recommend running this if you get the chance, it makes me feel we can still compete.
Our shooting is pretty naff (although I was spamming PGL, which pair with thle Dark Creed for some acceptable mortal wound output) but our combat really can keep us competing.
Between Incubi with Draz, and a Precision Killers / Test of Skill Wych cult running Blood Brides and Hellion Squads, and ubiquitous Grotesque lumps, we've got a good amount of very fast, very murderous killers.
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: Played my first few games with Drazhar and Incubi in a Dark Creed Detachment with Grisley Trophies Venoms, and lord was it good.
Warlord Drazhar is incredibly killy, he was smacking 10+ wounds off Knights a turn, and killing whole units of Custodes in 2 activations. And his Incubi buddies weren't that far behind.
Pair him with a Precision Blows Succubus in an allied Wych patrol, and I had 2 bad ass characters completely dictating the game. Highly recommend running this if you get the chance, it makes me feel we can still compete.
Our shooting is pretty naff (although I was spamming PGL, which pair with thle Dark Creed for some acceptable mortal wound output) but our combat really can keep us competing.
Between Incubi with Draz, and a Precision Killers / Test of Skill Wych cult running Blood Brides and Hellion Squads, and ubiquitous Grotesque lumps, we've got a good amount of very fast, very murderous killers.
I very nearly gave up on the dark eldar tactics thread because nobody posts here in like a month or more.
For me i'm playing against imperial guard mostly (like 3 players with them now) and necrons and honestly as tough a time as i have with necrons i'd say imperial guard are just absurdly broken. I played a game against a guy that usually never plays and he did some tank commander ability that made it move 18" and shoot me from behind cover and i lost like 3 of my 4 transports with a couple exploding and killing bunches of guys. Atm i just can not fight imperial guard or at least not a full tank list. It didn't help he went first.
Against necrons i still lose but i have a better chance. Drazhar does do work, incubi a bit less so (or at least in 10 man squads which is sad because that's what is required to kill a vehicle), wyches are decent and grotesques are good usually.
I'm honestly considering what's called "Thicc City" which seems to be more Coven based dark eldar armies. I think it was max talos and max cronos but that might defeat the point of even playing dark eldar for me aesthetically.
Things got much better in my club, for everyone, once I put my foot down and said there should be 3/4 LoS blocking terrains on every board, and it shouldn't be difficult to hide almost an entire army behind terrain turn 1.
Once we started doing that, and recording objective points better, everyone started having better games, even the Tau and Guard players.
But yeah can't disagree, Guard are very tough. Their firepower + their screening is really bad for us.
But I do think we have some play. Precision Blow + Test of Skill Hellions are great into Guard, as they can easily jump from terrain to terrain, and put out enough damage to mop up any screen or seriously cripple a tank.
But I won't lie it's a hard match up. Another specific tech could be to use Black Heart Kabal/Animus Vitae to turbo boost some transports right up in the opponents face, and charge some of their shooting units. It's peddle to the metal full throttle sort of list. Guard don't particularly like being on the backfoot.
@Talos, now they've regained Core, I think they probably have a place in most Real Space Raids. 2 Talos with Gauntlets, Injectors and Heat Lances taking up the middle of the board is a real brawler unit. And Grotesques hit like a truck as well.
Picture the list, a real space raid with 2*5 Incubi, 2*5 Grotesques, 2*10 Wyches, some Hellions, some transports, some killy characters, a Court of the Archon, all zooming up the field. The transports charge turn 1, tie up some stuff. Turn 2 the wave breaks. That could well sweep guard away.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Let's be fair, we can put some amazingly deadly units on the table.
Master Torturers + Splinter Blade coven units SLAP.
Cursed Blade / Precision Killers + Test of Skill or Stimulant Innovators slap. Blood Brides mulch through units which rely on -1 dmg mechanics, Hellions mulch anything that doesn't.
The Master Archon, Draz and Succubus are some of the best combat characters in the game for their points.
Incubi are murder on wheels, especially around Drazhar.
The main advise is we can't afford to pretend we aren't a melee army. Our shooting options suck compared to our melee.
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: Played my first few games with Drazhar and Incubi in a Dark Creed Detachment with Grisley Trophies Venoms, and lord was it good.
Warlord Drazhar is incredibly killy, he was smacking 10+ wounds off Knights a turn, and killing whole units of Custodes in 2 activations. And his Incubi buddies weren't that far behind.
Pair him with a Precision Blows Succubus in an allied Wych patrol, and I had 2 bad ass characters completely dictating the game. Highly recommend running this if you get the chance, it makes me feel we can still compete.
Our shooting is pretty naff (although I was spamming PGL, which pair with thle Dark Creed for some acceptable mortal wound output) but our combat really can keep us competing.
Between Incubi with Draz, and a Precision Killers / Test of Skill Wych cult running Blood Brides and Hellion Squads, and ubiquitous Grotesque lumps, we've got a good amount of very fast, very murderous killers.
I very nearly gave up on the dark eldar tactics thread because nobody posts here in like a month or more.
For me i'm playing against imperial guard mostly (like 3 players with them now) and necrons and honestly as tough a time as i have with necrons i'd say imperial guard are just absurdly broken. I played a game against a guy that usually never plays and he did some tank commander ability that made it move 18" and shoot me from behind cover and i lost like 3 of my 4 transports with a couple exploding and killing bunches of guys. Atm i just can not fight imperial guard or at least not a full tank list. It didn't help he went first.
Against necrons i still lose but i have a better chance. Drazhar does do work, incubi a bit less so (or at least in 10 man squads which is sad because that's what is required to kill a vehicle), wyches are decent and grotesques are good usually.
I'm honestly considering what's called "Thicc City" which seems to be more Coven based dark eldar armies. I think it was max talos and max cronos but that might defeat the point of even playing dark eldar for me aesthetically.
We have aged poorly but there's still wins to be had. I'm undefeated against Tau. Guard I feel are much worse but you could try something different like a webway gate beta strike. Combine our best assault with 2-3 units of 2 dark tech cronos. Those are just nasty with a WWG since you basically eliminate the blind spot they usually have from reserve, and they do kill russes efficiently. Just some friendly ideas.
Anyone else a little worried about blasters remaining S8? I don't know about you guys, but they're currently doing about as much lifting as my dark lances. Only wounding a rhino on a 5+ seems pretty damning for a single shot weapon.
I like my ravagers and haywire blasters just fine, but I don't love the idea of feeling compelled to load up on them every game.
Wyldhunt wrote: Anyone else a little worried about blasters remaining S8? I don't know about you guys, but they're currently doing about as much lifting as my dark lances. Only wounding a rhino on a 5+ seems pretty damning for a single shot weapon.
I like my ravagers and haywire blasters just fine, but I don't love the idea of feeling compelled to load up on them every game.
No, I'm very much in the same boat. Especially as I'd like warrior-heavy lists to actually be worth a damn, rather than paying a premium for models that are only equipped for laser-tag.
I'm also concerned about other vehicles getting drastic increases in durability, whilst the Venom has seen its save halved. Oh and it's now just 2" faster than a Rhino. And it's drastically worse as an assault vehicle than a Taurox. And its guns are still hilariously bad.
Yeah. The saving grace someone pointed out on the venoms is that you can hide them behind a corner, have the passengers disembark and shoot, and then have the passengers hop back into the hidden venom afterwards.
So sort of a wonky, vehicle-based version of battle focus. Of course, that's a lot more useful for lances than blasters, but at least it's something.
But yeah. Very curious to see what they do with dark eldar this edition. Because in an edition where anti-tank guns got more strength, our most common anti-tank gun didn't, and in an edition where things are becoming more durable, our venoms got squishier.
I have very low expectations at this point. But maybe our 4 augments are insanely cool, raiders have assault vehicle and the other 5 strats don't suck like the first one does. probably not reality but who knows.
The trick with venoms is super janky and unfun rule design, not unlike indirect fire actually. If it proves to be worth focusing on my bet is it will be nerfed similar to the old -6" to enemy range.
That said I don't feel it's gonna be anything amazing because the guns the venom and warriors have just aren't worth focusing on. At least not unless they're stupidly under costed. Hope I'm wrong.
I guess its hypocritical on me saying other factions need to think about their problems before posting - but I think DE look... mixed.
It feels like 9th edition was all about trying to make spiky-Eldar a melee threat after having been "codex venom spam" for the longest time. That's clearly been chucked now, and most melee units are looking kind of poor as a result. Baring in mind we lost turn 2 army wide advance and charge and 6s to wound giving extra AP on top of reductions. So we are both slower and less punchy. Pain Token rerolls are therefore somewhat mandatory - but rerolling 3s to hit isn't that much of a boost - when low S, low AP and 1 damage are the typical limiting factors.
So before Vipoid and co get in - lets do my stream of consciouness/Goonhammer bit from the top on every datasheet.
Archon, has a Husk Blade. Can still take a Blast Pistol, probably losing that in the codex. Can't join Incubi. Can join Court (but we'll get to that) or Kabalites. Gives rerolls to wound to hit unit which is nice, but not exactly crazy on these targets. When empowered he'll kill about 3 Space Marines which is okay I guess.
Beastmasters are in the index which surprises me. You have to take a fixed load out of one fiend, 2 dogs and 3 birds. Which is a bunch of attacks, but the stats are all over the place so not really sure what the unit wants to do. At M12 it is fast though and can reroll charges.
Court. Oh dear. Fixed loadout with 1 of each. With the Archon this potentially makes an interesting unit with all the stacking rules (fight first, lethal hits, rerolls to wound) but without opening a calculator I'd worry the critical mass isn't there into anything significant.
Cronos. Use a pain token in 9"? On a 4+ get one back. Isn't going to kill anything.
Drazhar is choppy, but a lot less choppy than in 9th. Can join Incubi (and... we'll get to them soon).
Grotesques - some S5 AP-1 2 damage attacks. Might be okay points permitting but not loving it.
Haemi - Wargear options: none.
Can join wracks, gives them a 4+++ (up from their 5+++). -1 aura for Battleshock tests. Weirdly might be a capable character assassin if your opponent were ever to fail some saves.
Hellions. Kind of like now if they went sober. Might be okay points depending.
Incubi. Nerfed dramatically. 3 WS3+ S4 AP-2 2 damage attacks. Gone from a unit which would trade into just about anything to where 5 are touch and go to clear 5 Marines if you use a pain token. They should kill one terminator and vaguely scratch the paintwork of a Rhino. Gained a 5++ but still going to die from a bunch of S4 AP- attacks. Make the opponent take a battleshock test which might be nice (as it gets you a pain token).
Kabalites get the "its in the box, stupid" treatment. Unitsize of 10, you can take a shredder, a blaster, a dark lance and a splinter cannon if you want. If its free why not, otherwise not sure why you'd bother even if running this confused little gun squad around in a venom (archon optional) might be fun for a laugh.
Think we saw Lelith in the preview. Kind of hamstrung by 1 damage. She can kill 2 Space Marines. Helps wyches out quite a lot.
Mandrakes can move around the battlefield at the end of your opponents turn which should be good for scoring.
Raider. Always advances 6. No assault on the guns though. Dissie is 3 BS3+ S5 AP-2 2 damage. Dark Lance as shown.
Ravager gets to reroll 1s to hit if targeting a full strength unit. Its T9 4+/6++.
Razorwing Jetfighters still inexplicably get to choose which missiles to use and gets +1 to hit vs non-flying units.
Reavers. Can fly over stuff and do some mortal wounds. In combat has 3 S4 AP- attacks. So if 6 hit a unit of Marines they'd kill 1 guy. And with a pain token maybe wound another. Hmmm...
As an aside - concerned about Blasters? Meet the Heat Lance. S14 AP-4 D6 damage but Melta 3. To my mind an explicitly better gun which will only be balanced by being much more expensive.
Scourge can take 4 of them and can move 6" after shooting. Only BS4+ - but with assault. Not sure any of the other options are worth thinking about (but I'm only giving it 20 seconds).
Succubus. Not loving it. She can take a blast pistol. Her weapons are anti-infantry 3+ AP-2 and... 1 damage. If Empowered her unit gets to fight first and she gives her unit sustained hits all the time. So 6 attacks, 6-7 hits, 4 wounds, 2.66 wounds go through. She kills a Space Marine. And can only join Wyches, (obviously). Can be boosted by enhancement with 2 more attacks an 2 more AP which might be okay I guess - with some luck she'll kill 3 whole space marines or a terminator.
Talos are max unit 2 now, so you know they are good...
In practice I feel one of the losers from their guns going to twin-linked - as a result it feels like they don't have much firepower even if it is reliable. Not sure the melee sis anything special. T7 3+/6+/5+++. If it kills an enemy unit its permanently empowered for the rest of the game which I guess could be useful if it means you reroll everything.
Rakarth can come back from the dead and bring Wracks back.
Venom is as seen. Can split up a unit of kabalites or wyches.
Voidraven does Voidraven stuff.
Wracks go mega on "its in the kit so you can take it". Can bring a hex rifle, liquifier, ossefactor and stinger pistol for every 5 guys. Unit of 5-10. Gain a pain token if it kills a unit and when this unit dies. Unfortunately melee is 2 3+ anti-infantry 4+ AP- 1 damage attacks. So in a world where 10 of them could attack its 20*2/3*1/2*1/3=2.222=1 dead space marine. A bunch of hex rifles (Heavy, Precision, BS3+ S6 AP-2 3 damage) might actually represent a serious threat to characters.
Wyches... yeah awful. Special Weapons are gone. Drugs are gone. Mandatory unit of 10. Baseline its 3 S3 AP-1 1 damage attacks. With an attached Succubus (or Lelith) I guess these might be okay. Looking fragile and insignificant without.
Basically as said at the top. The assault "needs" a pain token, but even then I'm not sure its worth it. You'll bounce too often, and then just die. Points depending etc - I think you can probably make quite a good shooting list.
But I may be being overly negative. Its early days and hard to have a feel for what's "good enough" to compete.
Could add lamentations on loss of options and flavour - but I figure that's a given with DE.
I said I wouldn't but I messed with the rules because I'm upset. And I wanted to prove.. something Idk what. that I'm justified I guess. And to me it did. Anyway this is the shell I believe every single drukhari list will start with, and then a very very select few choices afterwards. Dark light spam plus whatever fits.
Will it win games? Yes I believe it will be quite nasty. Is there any real choices in list building? Absolutely not. No real decisions, no points flexibility AT ALL, no.. ownership of the army anymore. Nuthin. And warriors are still bad. Only now they can't be msu unless you erase the benefit by taking a venom tax. thus the wracks spam, because their weaponry durability and cost is all superior. So there it is. What I would expect most drukhari lists wishing to compete will look like. Flex spots being the HQ, incubi, grots. I suppose theres room to squeeze more raiders and warriors. Now I'm truly done.
Massed Wracks is an option but I'm not sure its the only one.
Sort of influenced by Canadian 5th's idea in one of the threads.
Archon + The Art of Pain (Warlord) 85+25
Kabalites 120 (Dark Lance, Splinter Cannon, Blaster, Shredder etc)
Kabalites 120 Etc
Kabalites 120 Etc
Kabalites 120 Etc
Venom 80 (Dual cannons obviously)
Venom 80 Etc
Venom 80 Etc
Venom 80 Etc
Raider 90 Dark Lance
Raider 90 Dark Lance
Ravager 95 Dark Lances
Ravager 95 Dark Lances
Ravager 95 Dark Lances
Scourge 120 Dark Lances
Scourge 120 Dark Lances
Scourge 120 Dark Lances
Mandrakes 70
Wracks 65 All weapons
Wracks 65 Etc
Wracks 65 Etc
Total: 2000.
55 bodies. 9 vehicles. 1 character.
This might be a bit silly at 27 Dark Lances and you might want some more explicit horde clearance (but I think blast is going to make this edition extremely horde unfriendly), but go with it. Splinter Cannons aren't exactly good, but 12 of them should contribute something over a game. Could swap out on the Ravagers, but without a way to give rerolls to wound I don't think Dissies will do enough. Thought about a Voidraven with Dark Scythes - but at more than 2 Ravagers its hard to believe that's points efficient.
Anyway, the plan is for the Venoms to split off the Kabalites so you've now got 2 Raiders each effectively equipped with with 3 Dark Lances, 2 Splinter Cannons, 2 Blasters, 2 Shredders and a couple of splinter rifles. Obvious power from pain target helping out that mediocre BS4+ on the Kabalite heavy weapons. Good Target too for Strike and Fade if you can get out of LOS/Range.
This is supported by the long range ravagers and scourge - all of which are fast and have fly so should be able to get angles on something (and Scourge can then dip back out of LOS). I was very pro-Heat Lances in the post above, and they might be worth experimenting with, but I suspect keeping your distance may be better, unless you need more stuff up the board. Had a thought about mass Shredders, but don't think that works into MEQ, and doubt mass GEQ will be meta relevant.
The Venoms with non-special weapon kabalites shoot up the board, with the Wracks jogging behind them to take/pressure mid-board objectives/act as chaff as required. The Mandrakes are there to appear in the opponent's deployment zone if they push out/grab an undefended objective late game when most stuff is dead.
Not sure the Art of Pain is worth it (as you need the Archon on the table) - but its sort of compensation for the fact we aren't taking a Succubus, Haemi or Cronos etc. Having the Archon just floating in the wind is potentially bad - but its hard to believe he's going to do anything worthwhile. He should be easy enough to hide out of LOS, still has a shadowfield if a few lascannons etc can somehow draw a bead, and this way is giving me something - and letting me use Devious Mastermind (Vect) if my opponent has any good stratagems they'll want to spam. In some matchups he might just join up with a Kabalite squad and you'll just miss out on some pain tokens.
Anyway - the pain tokens will be 3+1+1 a turn +unit kills/any battleshock failures (and presumably 3 dead Wrack units). Expectation is only to use them on shooting, or if you need a charge to get something on an objective. So this is probably good enough for at least 3-4 a turn over the game depending on how MSU your opponent is. With potentially a skew into early game alpha strike and a second burst when the wracks inevitably die (probably turn 2/3).
Venoms and kabs could be decent if there's infantry to shoot. And perhaps a small amount is worth it for sticky objs. But 40 kabs and 4 venoms is just asking to run into knights or Raven Wing or similar skew list that doesn't care about anti infantry since there is no more troops tax. Then 800 pts is impotent. But I guess it depends on your local meta.
The bigger question to me is what this faction has left when they nerf dark lances and increase costs for ravagers and scourges.
dominuschao wrote: I said I wouldn't but I messed with the rules because I'm upset. And I wanted to prove.. something Idk what. that I'm justified I guess. And to me it did. Anyway this is the shell I believe every single drukhari list will start with, and then a very very select few choices afterwards. Dark light spam plus whatever fits.
Will it win games? Yes I believe it will be quite nasty. Is there any real choices in list building? Absolutely not. No real decisions, no points flexibility AT ALL, no.. ownership of the army anymore. Nuthin. And warriors are still bad. Only now they can't be msu unless you erase the benefit by taking a venom tax. thus the wracks spam, because their weaponry durability and cost is all superior. So there it is. What I would expect most drukhari lists wishing to compete will look like. Flex spots being the HQ, incubi, grots. I suppose theres room to squeeze more raiders and warriors. Now I'm truly done.
Yeah, I mean, I dont know why youre spamming cronos personally, but you've got the gist.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In general Drukhari has performed a 'return to form' from having our best codex in terms of flexibility and build variety and general 'everything is usable' in 9e...and we're back to being a collection of Junk and Jank.
You can spam the thing that's good and win, even win heavily in some matchups (that's dark lances and gun wracks. It's not hard to figure out that that's dark lances and gun wracks.)
2x5 kabs in venoms might be worth throwing in to sticky some objectives and fly around and score gak. If you take them in a venom you can actually split up their specials and heavies to make a reasonably specialized squad.
All 3 basic HQs are colossal dogshit. drazar is ok. I'm looking at running lelith to get the +1 pain token but...man, I dunno.
in terms of units that looked a bit better after I took my second look through and did some analysis -
Voidraven Bomber, basically 2 ravagers strapped together with the MW bomb ability, but it has to deep strike. Could be OK.
Reaver Jetbikes with heat lances, decent for the cost, fast, good at dealing unexpected damage.
Beastmaster, actually kind of a good bargain basement cheap squad, 21 T4 wounds for 120 points and then not having a huge squad size to get slaughtered by indirect fire blast gak is OK.
Hellions are also another OK bargain basement squad. They have basically the perfect amount of firepower and melee to clear out 10 GEQ or 5 MEQ and move fast. Theyre kinda what wyches are trying and failing to be because wyches are just so damn expensive.
Automatically Appended Next Post: but in general yeah, huge massive disappointment of an index. Clearly put together with very little effort, by someone who didnt know the army at all, didnt know what gak was supposed to do, didnt have any clue how drukhari was supposed to function at its core and just twiddled from the baseline of the 9th ed book without really having a good idea of how 10th works.
Where are people landing on HQs? Is it worth biting the bullet and taking 3 generics for the extra pain tokens? Can you be cheeky and just hide a haemi in the backfield for screening and pain token generation without giving him a squad to hang out with? Or does that just invite indirect fire?
I was initially leaning towards taking Drazhar and no other characters, but I'd appreciate not putting Draz and a squad of incubi at the heart of every single army.
My wracks are old and gunless, so I'm hesitant to spam them given that I'm presumably missing out on a couple dozen points worth of guns in each squad.
Had my first game of 10th edition yesterday. I got caught out by some rules a couple of times and ended up getting stomped. Hopefully I'll do better next time.
I ran:
1 Haemonculus w/ the 1 PT per command phase enhancement
1 Wracks X 5 (no guns because my models are ye olde grotesques)
1 Warriors
1Raider w/ lance
1 Venom w/ 2xSC
1 Ravager w/ lances
3 scourge squads, 1 with heat lances, 1 with dark lances, 1 with haywires
1 Reavers (3 bikes) with caltrops and a heat lance
My opponent ran:
1 foot 'tarch
2 Spirit seers
1 Wraithseer
1 wraithblades with axes
1 wraithguard with cannons
1 guardians with lance
1 wave serpent
1 swooping hawks X 5
Mission was Eternal War.
I felt like I had enough lances and poison to give my opponent a run for his money, the plan being to kite his slow wraiths in the first half and then try to push onto an objective en-masse while my own objectives remained under my control thanks to the warriors' special rule.
My first mistake was forgetting that you can disembark after a transport moves. This allowed him to move up his wraith guard in the serpent and take out my heat lance scourges on the top of 1, dramatically reducing my firepower.
After that, I took out his wave serpent pretty easily (just using my ravager and reaver heat lance with no pain tokens). And then I did approxomitely zero damage for the rest of the game.
Each turn, I tried to focus fire as many guns as I could on his units, but he'd use the Phantasm eldar strat to move them out of line of sight. As a result, a lot of my big guns ended up without anything to shoot at for the first few turns (or else ended up shooting at 4+ invuln. This also allowed him to functionally double the speed of his wraith blades in the second half of the game when he no longer needed to hide.
Between good saves and being hidden behind terrain, I wasn't able to kill the wraith guard. My splinters did almost nothing due to lack of AP. My darklight whiffed against his 5+ saves (he was in cover). I kept chipping away at them, but apparently spirit seers let you rez a wraithguard in each player's command phase.
So basically, I couldn't concentrate enough firepower to kill much. The guns I did shoot weren't powerful enough to wipe out my targets. The models I did kill were mostly rezzed by spirit seers. Eventually, he whittled down my firepower enough to move up his wraith blades to win the objective game. His swooping hawks didn't have to do anything. My reavers tried to bum rush his guardians at one point, but bounced off harmlessly and got killed by the autarch.
Overall, it was a fun game against a friendly opponent, but I guess I need to get good at the new edition.
The Haemonculus seems the least arse of the three, but it's still akin to choosing my favourite venereal disease.
Honestly, though, I won't be trying any of them because the index has effectively shredded any interest I had in playing what was once my favourite army. I can't even muster the enthusiasm to write a list.
The Haemonculus seems the least arse of the three, but it's still akin to choosing my favourite venereal disease.
Honestly, though, I won't be trying any of them because the index has effectively shredded any interest I had in playing what was once my favourite army. I can't even muster the enthusiasm to write a list.
That's fair. There are a few things that make me want to give them a fair shake (scourges finally being able to move-shoot-move, and a couple other maneuvering tricks), but their mechanics are probably less fluffy now than they've ever been. Even 7th at least let you customize your characters a little and choose which units they attached to. And the covens book that edition had some genuinely cool/fluffy stuff.
Only played 3 games in 10th (using Necrons each time), I was too disappointed at our index rules to give Drukhari a go. But, I will mention because I haven't seen it yet - the haywire blaster is actually a fantastic weapon. As of now, anti-X turns all successful wounds into devastating (if the weapon has devastating as well). So the haywire is pumping out a ton of mortals against vehicles. Of course, it is always a risk taking a weapon that will be useless if you end up facing off against a list without vehicles.
Grumblewartz wrote: Only played 3 games in 10th (using Necrons each time), I was too disappointed at our index rules to give Drukhari a go. But, I will mention because I haven't seen it yet - the haywire blaster is actually a fantastic weapon. As of now, anti-X turns all successful wounds into devastating (if the weapon has devastating as well). So the haywire is pumping out a ton of mortals against vehicles. Of course, it is always a risk taking a weapon that will be useless if you end up facing off against a list without vehicles.
Had the same experience trying mono harlequins, haywire is soooolid if your opponent's playing vehicles
I've never played as OR against Drukhari in any edition, but I think I want to try giving them a go.
I've been looking over the index, and I agree that Drazhar and Incubi will be my go-to Warlord unit. Also gonna try the Archon leading some Kabalites, purely because the Archon gives reroll wounds. In my games of 10th so far with other armies, I know how useful that is.
My rough list includes a lot of the same units listed as "good" in this thread, so I think I'm on the right track.
I'll probably start with a Combat Patrol if I can find one. They're out of stock on the Australian GW site. I actually want every unit in the CP box. I was also looking at Tau as my next army, but only actually wanted 2 of the 5 CP units for their box... Might mean Drukhari happens first.
Question: I don't really use transports in either of my existing armies. What's the smartest way of using a Raider? My infantry will include probably Kabalites and Incubi, not sure about anything else.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Before anyone asks why I'm starting an army that you all are saying is rubbish, it's because the models look awesome.
Question: I don't really use transports in either of my existing armies. What's the smartest way of using a Raider? My infantry will include probably Kabalites and Incubi, not sure about anything else.
Well, the "big" trick with raiders right now is to field two squads of kabalites, two venoms, and a raider. The venoms let you split the kabalite squads in half, so you can put all your special weapons (or at least all the lances and blasters) in the raider and put your other kabalites in the venoms. This means that you can spend a single pain token to buff 3 dark lances, 2 blasters, and whatever other guns you put in the raider while the smaller (easier to hide) venoms with their more expendable kabalites zip around making objectives sticky.
Other than that:
* Go lance; not disintegrator. 10th edition makes us need lots of lances.
* Don't be afraid to use your raider to movement block or even charge enemy units. You won't win the fight, but you might keep your opponent at a distance and vulnerable to your army's shooting for an extra turn. This tactic is less good with the above super raider though.
* Because of how ruins work in 10th edition, you can fly up onto tall ruins to give your attacks plunging fire. Your dark lances don't care about this much as their AP is already good, but your splinter weapons do. Just don't do this with a raider containing a melee unit that you need to charge with next turn because they'll have to climb all the way down to the ground again.
Ahhh, I see. I was planning on taking a couple Venoms anyway, so I'll try that trick. Thanks.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So, would the Kabalites simply stay in the Raider until it gets destroyed? Kabs are shooty, not melee, so that kinda makes sense...
I just wanted to post again after 4 more game with DE. I'm beyond bored of our index, there's NOTHING in it. There's a bit of cheekiness that can be done with 6xReavers, it's possible they can kill 5man marine units on and then take those objectives, for a CP. We have nothing durable. The bulk of our units are for skirmishing with T3 Sv5+ battleline units. I don't see those on the table in any game. So we're left with Dark Lance spam with 50% of our 9th ed movement and durablility. Sadly we play like a speedy guard army that forgot their armour and hundreds of expendable bodies.
What should we be throwing onto middle objectives that can handle being shot at? Seems like the DE strategy is to sticky an objective and hope the enemy has no reserves or deepstrike or fast stuff, otherwise GG. Talos are the closest thing, IF I could put a Haemonculus with them a 4+FNP would 'help' but even they fall apart really quickly. It's just so boring.
A court of the archon with Kabalites + Archon is 270pts, why is this an option? What does it do that justifies super heavy/epic character points? T3 with -1 to wound, haha, I'd love to see the games GW played where this was relevant.
You guys are aware we have at least at the last balance update been considered the absolute Worst Faction bar none and auspex tactics put us on 2nd worst army with only Blood Angels doing worse right?
Also the meta-watch was a list of 60,000 games of 40k and their winners and losers. We're at 44% win rate which is the lowest. I imagine however this depends on the factions we face
however.
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I faced an Admech player which is probably the first time i've faced admech in years and i will say their cavalry heavy list (sulphurhounds) is totally invulnerable to poison these days since it isn't infantry. First time in my current set of games of 10th where poison was almost completely worthless. Also the forcing mortal wounds in my deployment zone for a MSU army was quite absurd against how i ran dark eldar since we've always done MSU. The person i fought also got first turn. I dunno this current list is bad and i should've brought void ravens. So much for thinking it'd be a friendly game. That said we're doing terribly.
44% seems too high. It feels like a 34% chance of winning. There's a host of evidence DE are gak tier. This is a 9th ed thread we have to use; because there's nothing in 10th to make a thread about... Skari has to play at his best against a non tourney list to win after he gave up on them for a bit. Don't worry though they'll make wyches cheaper still. I still fail to see how you build a successful list relying on poison weapons and S3 melee.
While i dislike things about our army and i think Reavers are a lot trashier than people say i will say Dark Scythe Void Ravens are REALLY good esp. when you boost them with a pain token so they get re-rolls to hit. I haven't tested them out on MEQ units yet or even terminators but they're strength 8, ap 4, 2 damage attacks but like 12 per void raven and void raven missiles and will clear a squad of marines with just one volley per plane and i only used them for one turn since we only played 2 full turns (he went first as a guard player and i went 2nd but i was hidden with almost everything but ravagers)
This game my scourge squads also did really well. Often you need units to prevent deep strike and reserves from coming up behind them and wiping them out. Jump-shoot-jump is fantastic however. I only wish some of our other units got it like our bikes.
Venoms are alright but their small footprint is good.
Ravagers are good but their footprint is way too big like with raiders. So any shooting army that goes first will focus ravagers down first as they always do.
Reavers are over-rated. If they miss with heat lances they're garbage in both melee and in shooting. The only good thing with reavers is to ruin enemy DS/reserves and taking objectives from the enemy.
5 man wracks with liquifier in venoms are....ok.
I've used minimum size (5-man) hellion squads and while they sound nice on paper the toughness 4, 5+ armor and even 2 wounds is....really bad. Even the shooting and melee can't make them good enough. I just have a hard time looking at them and void ravens compared to each other and thinking i'd rather have 10 hellions instead even with the turn 2 reserves problem. In fact that makes the void ravens even better in some ways except for the inability to hold objectives.
Warriors and poison in general (except maybe splinter cannons) is good vs light infantry and not much else. The 3+ to wound vs infantry is nice when it's in effect. Usually i don't face bikes and cavalry but when i do in large numbers i just cry like against my one admech opponent. I haven't faced admech since like 7th edition before the last opponent i played against though.
-------
Basically our army is wracks, poisoned shooting (maybe), void ravens and then lots of dark lances and then nothing else of value. I have yet to try cronos yet but you can get a couple in a 2,000 pts game for really cheap and if you put them near your scourge and ravagers they should theoretically be reasonably good (100 pts total for 2 cronos is not a bad price tag).
flamingkillamajig wrote: You guys are aware we have at least at the last balance update been considered the absolute Worst Faction bar none and auspex tactics put us on 2nd worst army with only Blood Angels doing worse right?
Doesn't surprise me in the least.
- Our detachment rule might as well not exist.
- Our HQs are pigswill, though the Succubus gets extra points for having a weapon that's markedly worse than those of her peers. Good to see we've gone right back to our melee HQ being the worst in melee.
- Poison weapons have been abysmal for the last 5 editions because monsters and heavy infantry have gotten tougher and tougher in terms of wounds, saves etc., whilst the poison weapons that are supposed to be effective against them have stayed exactly the same. GW's solution to this was to make poison weapons slightly better at wounding infantry.. in exchange for being useless against monsters, cavalry, bikes, beasts, swarms etc. - The Blaster, once the equal of the Dark Lance, now has all the impact of a wet napkin.
- Wyches are apparently all suffering from withdrawal. They were good for all of 1 edition and now they must pay the price for it.
- Someone on the design team - you know who you are - decided that one of our army's 4 items should be the Crucible of Malediction. Because a 1/battle ability to gently tickly an enemy psyker's unit, if it fails a Ld roll, is definitely something that adds tremendous flavour to a character with no other wargear options.
- Raiders and Venoms still aren't Assault vehicles, despite this being a core aspect since their inception.
etc.
What's worse, though, is that DE are such a dreary army now. Neither 8th nor 9th could be acused of bristling with love or creativity for the army, but at least there was a few small sparks here and there. 10th has come along and drowned those sparks in raw sewage.
I know how you feel man. The only really good things in our army are dark lance spam and void ravens (likely dark scythes) and little else. Poisoned shooting is ok but only against infantry. The wracks and Cronos basically just exist for Pain Token spamming and that's basically just it. If an opponent spams pure infantry, heavy infantry or vehicle lists it might be a hard game for us. I oddly don't know how i'd handle a spam of 2 or 3 wound space marine units. Guardsmen spam could also be pretty nasty however against my last list.
The math on Reavers is: a 6 man unit moves and advances over 5 marines. Use their ability and upgrade to reroll one 4+, about 4 mortals. Then shoot, probably kill another with a heat lance and throw a wound from the poison. Then spend a CP and charge, the other upgrade is for the Sgts weapon to have Lance, so wounds infantry on 2+. Those attacks plus the smattering of others will statistically finish the job.
I've tried 2 units of 5 mandrakes in a raider, kind of fun shooting boat. Then after it's destroyed, they fade away. 1 Cronos is good enough, usually nets me lots of tokens. Talos with haywire and fists can be functional with -1 to wound against some targets.
Gibblets wrote: The math on Reavers is: a 6 man unit moves and advances over 5 marines. Use their ability and upgrade to reroll one 4+, about 4 mortals. Then shoot, probably kill another with a heat lance and throw a wound from the poison. Then spend a CP and charge, the other upgrade is for the Sgts weapon to have Lance, so wounds infantry on 2+. Those attacks plus the smattering of others will statistically finish the job.
I've tried 2 units of 5 mandrakes in a raider, kind of fun shooting boat. Then after it's destroyed, they fade away. 1 Cronos is good enough, usually nets me lots of tokens. Talos with haywire and fists can be functional with -1 to wound against some targets.
That sounds really terrible on the reavers vs marines. Use dark scythe void ravens with Pain token boost and you'll feel silly you ever attempted something so complex to kill 5 simple marines.
I am curious about mandrakes in raiders but raiders have a stupidly large foot print for a faction that needs to hide turn 1 to not absolutely get murdered. Sadly all finecast models for dark eldar are unavailable to buy because screw us right. This is a more damning thing on ravagers however because any opposing shooting army with the range will know just how important these are and it might be better to have them early.
I haven't got talos or cronos sadly. I know it's criminal to have no talos in a dark eldar army but i don't like them for some reason. I never really have. I might grab a couple cronos though esp. now.
Since it is established that the index is devoid of choices and no one outside is happy with it how do we fix the model profiles. For instance, Grotesques are really bad how would you make them worth their current points? (Frankly we can do this with 88% of this book)
Gibblets wrote: Since it is established that the index is devoid of choices and no one outside is happy with it how do we fix the model profiles. For instance, Grotesques are really bad how would you make them worth their current points? (Frankly we can do this with 88% of this book)
I've kind of been pondering this, and I think the first step is to decide whether you want to come up with relatively small changes that make things playable (but not great), or if you want to basically overhaul the entire faction given how much stuff doesn't work well at the moment.
Like, we could pump up the Wounds and Attacks on grotesques and let haemonculi join them (for FNP 4+). Maybe they'd be "good" then, but I'm still not sure I'd be excited about using them as I was in previous editions. And at the same time, I'm always reluctant to just power up the offense of units because that approach tends to be power creepy, but also the current rules don't really give them a role outside of being beefy melee monsters.
Similarly, wyches are just really underwhelming right now, and their No Escape rule is basically just a source of bonus damage that your opponent has too much control over. So we could give them a bunch of additional attacks to make them hit harder and they'd be yet another generic melee unit for us, but I'd still find that less satisfying than older versions of the unit where I could use them as tarpits or vehicle hunters or simply feel super fast charging out of a moving raider.
So it's like... do you go with the more practical and simple fix, or do you try to make something actually cool that requires an overhaul?
I expected an overhaul. Because how many unit profiles do we need in this book who's sole role is "I kill light infantry". Seems like 70% of our book is tooled for this so some shifting of focus will be required. Christ their unit ability should go.
Well I'll shout into the void. Grotesques should get ignores cover on their Liquifers, Dev wounds back on their melee, T6, W5. Special rule being: They regenerate D3 wounds a turn, can stack with Haemonculous similar ability. Maybe that's enough to let them hurt elites and tie up the enemy for a bit.
For grotesques, a simple fix would be to give them a couple extra wounds and attacks and let haemonculi join them (for 4+ FNP). They're meant to be the sledgehammer coven unit that hits hard and takes a beating, but I'm always reluctant to give anything too much of a raw power boost.
A fluffy (but probably overly complicated) idea would be nod back to their old 5th edition running amok rule. (I forget the name.) Basically, during your command phase, you can kick the grots in the right direction and empty out their drug dispensers, driving them into a murder frenzy. They become battleshocked for the rest of the game and must move towards and charge the nearest enemy unit every turn, but you double their current/remaining Wounds and their Attacks characteristic.
The idea being that you're putting them in murder mode and giving up what little control you ever had; just turning them loose on the enemy army. Mechancially, you're giving them raw power and durability in excess of what you'd expect for their points cost, but you're making it easy for your opponent to mitigate their effectiveness by leading them astray with sacrificial units or decoys. Which seems very fluffy.
I also feel like there's room for a coven-themed detachment that lets you tweak the stats of your grotesques and engines pre-game. Something akin to the 7th edition formation rules for powered up grots. So you might end up with grots with extra arms (bonus weapons with Extra Attacks) or creepy armor or whatever. It would be a good excuse to get creative with conversions and make our mad scientists feel less homogenous with their pet projects.
There's a lot sad about our book. The only good place to put shredders on is our scourge and that unit is our best dark lance units. Disintegrators are a bad joke and only a slightly better heavy bolter in every sense of the use of one. Incubi had their strength, WS and other stats nerfed for some weird reason even though stuff only got tougher. Liquifiers are pretty weak and i'd rather use a shredder for like every situation instead except shredders have no good unit to be on.
If i'll give GW something is they cycle around which units DE have that are good every new codex or edition though.
So I brought out my Talos/Cronos themed Drukhari for our Sunday game last week.
Other than being annoyed that my max squad sizes for Talos/Cronos have been reduced? They functioned quite well.
Team game, 3k pts per side.
Team A) my Drukhari, some SM, some Custodes.
Team B) 1k pts Tau, 2k worth of Imperial Knights.
Victory: Team A
The Cronos squads mauled the out of several pathfinder & stealth suit squads, but not quite killing them all. Wich allowed the Talos units to get the kills & become fully empowered.
After that? The Talos units went onto either kill or do the majority damage to 3 Armigars, a Paladin(?) & outright killed a FW something or other (big knight, segmented looking carapace) and a Hammerhead.
MY portions of the turns were very fast & although the damage I put out was critically important, as was the VPs my Archon & Venom were achieving, it almost seemed like I wasn't involved in much of the game.
I do have to give credit to my Imperial teammates. They weren't super effective in any given turn, but they did make a giant CC mess that kept the Knights bogged down in melee for much of the game. Wich in turn allowed me to shoot them up with near impunity.
out of several pathfinder & stealth suit squads, but not quite killing them all. Wich allowed the Talos units to get the kills & become fully empowered.