I disagree on mutate
Interrogation is often the easier choice, especially with the characther+bodyguard shenanigans so many armies seem to like.
You cant mutate if you cant even touch the objective, and that will often happen if the enemy has any semblance of understanding, and the increasing difficulty makes it not guaranteed at all in the later casts.
A backline seeker after shadows infernal master can do his thing while still harvesting points on interrogations practically unchallenged, and the only counterplay is to hide all characthers-something most armies really cant afford.
BoomWolf wrote: I disagree on mutate
Interrogation is often the easier choice, especially with the characther+bodyguard shenanigans so many armies seem to like.
You cant mutate if you cant even touch the objective, and that will often happen if the enemy has any semblance of understanding, and the increasing difficulty makes it not guaranteed at all in the later casts.
A backline seeker after shadows infernal master can do his thing while still harvesting points on interrogations practically unchallenged, and the only counterplay is to hide all characthers-something most armies really cant afford.
Well, he can keep them well back on turn 1 and 2, and then throw them all in on turn 3. If they all die turn 4, you then only get two turns of mental interrogate. It would feel bad to purposely keep an enemy character alive just so that he can be mental interrogated. I just feel that its even easier to guard against mental interrogation than mutate landscape.
Granted opponent can prevent us from touching the objective, but that is in practise harder than he thinks because we can temporal surge our rubric marines onto the objective. For an opponent to prevent us from mutating a point, he literally needs to cover the entire circle radius 3 inches around the objective with his models. That is not an easy thing to do. You need a pretty large number of models to be able to do that.
Mutate is relatively easy points on a 6 objective map, and there are quite a few of those. Should be able to get 3 or 4 mutates off pretty easily. Its that last mutate on turn 5 that might be a big challenging. But like I said, you can just fly+advance suicide your enlightened shaman over to do that last mutate on round 5.
Now if its a 5 objective map with one objective in the middle, then warp ritual would obviously be a better choice compared to Mutate Landscape. So its map dependent. But I like that on most maps, mutate/warp ritual is close to an auto pick for us.
Kebabcito wrote: problem with mutate is getting too close, this army has 0 survival capabilities if they are charged
I see TS gameplay more like AdMech. To the last, stranglehold and banners, 24" positioning and just screening
I don't know about that ( yet ).
10 S4 Wyches do 5 wounds to Rubrics. You would trigger -1D vs Incubi, which means they'd probably use the first profile for 6 damage total.
The biggest problem will be characters, but aside from Drazhar it's pretty rare to get hit with better than D2.
An Adrenalite, Triptych Succubus will at most do 10 wounds with -1D on. Obviously -1D can't be everywhere so getting hit with everything from DE can be disastrous, but that's true no matter who you are.
TL;DR - people are sleeping on D3 in melee and we can make it really hard to go through all those power armor/invuln wounds.
Also, we have the ability to smite ourselves out of combat.
10 S4 Wyches do 5 wounds to Rubrics. You would trigger -1D vs Incubi, which means they'd probably use the first profile for 6 damage total.
The biggest problem will be characters, but aside from Drazhar it's pretty rare to get hit with better than D2.
An Adrenalite, Triptych Succubus will at most do 10 wounds with -1D on. Obviously -1D can't be everywhere so getting hit with everything from DE can be disastrous, but that's true no matter who you are.
10 S4 Wyches do 5 wounds to Rubrics. You would trigger -1D vs Incubi, which means they'd probably use the first profile for 6 damage total.
The biggest problem will be characters, but aside from Drazhar it's pretty rare to get hit with better than D2.
An Adrenalite, Triptych Succubus will at most do 10 wounds with -1D on. Obviously -1D can't be everywhere so getting hit with everything from DE can be disastrous, but that's true no matter who you are.
Rubric marines are durable but they will still die to enough shooting or just close combat. But you have to remove every model because they are obsec. And then we can just move on another unit of rubrics and smite+shoot off your obsec on that point.
Its a valid strategy especially if you have enough rubrics in your army. Just keep on throwing more obsec rubrics onto a point. What ever is obsec on that point should die to smites and shooting, and whatever is too hardy to be killed by shooting plus smites are not likely to be obsec.
If that point is too strongly held for that strategy (maybe he has his whole army on it), then do that to another enemy held objective. Its unlikely your opponent can have so much stuff on all of his held points. Rubrics can move 12 inches with temporal surge, 15 inches out of a Rhino, and more if they move advance.
We just need to outnumber enemy obsec to get that point. Say he has 5 intercessors on a back point. If you can temporal surge+move advance your rubrics onto that point. One doombolt will remove enough models there so that you now outnumber him and you have obsec too.
Having said that, melee is a weakness to our army, its true. The one thing that would almost certainly kill us would be if our opponent can get multiple charges into our characters and then kill them. Once we lose our key characters, we lose a lot of our power in our army because our psychic phase now becomes so much weaker. This is kind of why I still favor having a big bloc of occults to protect our key characters.
Trying to figure out the math on imbued incantation and prism of echos.
IMBUED MANIFESTATION
4 Cabal Points
Like flame leaping along a trail of spilled promethium, the Thousand Sons’ magicks feed upon the latent energies clouding the air and race hungrily away through them towards the foe.
Use this Cabbalistic Ritual when a psychic power is successfully manifested by a unit from your army. Add 6" to the range of that psychic power’s effects (if that psychic power specifies multiple ranges, e.g. Astral Blast, add 6" to the first range specified in that psychic power).
THE PRISM OF ECHOES
This ancient crystal is said to have been recovered from amongst the despoiled ruins of Prospero. It resonates with the psychic death-agonies of all those who fell along with their world on its final day, so that even the gheists of the Rubricae are moved to vengeful fury by its presence.
Each time the bearer successfully manifests a Blessing psychic power, double the first range specified in that power’s effects
Let's say cult of duplicity teleport blessing has a range of 6", do we double that then add 6? Or do we add 6 then double? Based on maths on weapon x2 and + str bonus i am inclined to say that you only get 18 inches here. But given that this is a on cast layering effect can you layer it to add 6 then double?
I had a game against Tyranids last weekend. My list was Ahriman on disc, Exalted on disc, Infernal Master, 3 x 5 man SoT, 2 x Hellbrute with LC/ML, 1 unit of 5 man rubics with flamers, 1 unit of 5 man rubrics with bolters, 1 unit of 9 man rubircs with bolters, and a Leviathan. I won by 10+ points despite being tabled on turn 5, and down to just Ahriman and one squad on turn 4.
I stole the idea from that guy who won in Austraila and put temporal surge on two of the SoT that started on the board. Then deepstruck the third. I was scoring primary like crazy. I really like the 3 x 5 man SoT and the temporal surge really gets them moving. I took Time since I was using surge and it felt just a maneuverable as duplicity. 5 are more than enough to cause issues, and with 3 squads my opponent said he felt like there was just pressure on him on every front. And damage 1 is not hurting them, and with only 5 the -1d strat is only 1 CP which really helps their survivabilty. Also compared to Rubrics, the SoT can actually do some work in CC, so I feel that they are much better at moving up the field to take objectives. I think every list I build is going to include the 3 x SoT units.
Also I used the Scrolls with Firestorm form my Exalted. Man, that roll 3 then pick really makes a huge difference with getting the 9+ psychic roll. It is still a bit swing-y as one time I rolled one 5, and another four 6s (needing them) so you never really know what it will do, but with the malevolent charge and the scrolls it can be scary good at assassinating characters or support units.
I did not get to see what the Leviathan could do with the infernal master, as he got charged turn 1 by a flying hive tyrant (they have some crazy strat that lets them move again, so 32 inch move with that). For my next game I am dropping the Leviathan and putting in a Daemon Prince, some cultists (for the new detachment so I can take said Daemon Prince).
dreadlybrew wrote: Trying to figure out the math on imbued incantation and prism of echos.
Let's say cult of duplicity teleport blessing has a range of 6", do we double that then add 6? Or do we add 6 then double? Based on maths on weapon x2 and + str bonus i am inclined to say that you only get 18 inches here. But given that this is a on cast layering effect can you layer it to add 6 then double?
I play it as 18" but only because that's the most conservative of the two possibilities.
xeen wrote: ...I stole the idea from that guy who won in Austraila and put temporal surge on two of the SoT that started on the board. Then deepstruck the third. I was scoring primary like crazy. I really like the 3 x 5 man SoT and the temporal surge really gets them moving. I took Time since I was using surge and it felt just a maneuverable as duplicity.
Thanks for sharing your experience!
I agree Temporal surge is super important. I used to run it on all my rubrics/occults. However, the limitation here is it's hard to cast needing a 7+ and its short range tends to mean it's in deny range. For such a pivotal power that's problematic. The solution that I've been enjoying is the following:
Exalted Sorcerer, disk, Dilettante - 160
Relic: Prism of Echoes and Athenaean Scroll
Powers: Temporal Surge, Pyric Flux (or whatever power you want)
The Prism means you can cast Temporal Surge at 12" or 18" (with the range ritual) and the Scroll means it's all but guaranteed to go off. This means you don't have to take temporal surge on all you units, it can be cast out of deny range and it goes off very reliably. If you run duplicity this sorcerer is great for casting sorcerous facade out of deny range too (as you can cast it at 12" or 18" rather than 6").
I've found firestorm very unreliable and swingy even with the scroll. Using the scroll on something so swingy feels like a waste to me.
Anyway, this particular exalted sorcerer set up as been an absolute MVP for me. He can combo really well with other exalted sorcerers as they no longer need to waste a cast on temporal surge. For example you can move Ahriman forward cast a bunch of witchfires and then use this sorcerer to temporal surge Ahriman back to safety (reliably and out of deny range). You can also cast it reliably and make it undeniable (if you can't be out of deny range) as you no longer need to use pact from beyond to guarantee that it goes off (meaning you can combo it with cabbalistic focus).
Agreed. I tend to stick to the most conservative rules position on layering like that.
I think the buff exalted with prism and scrolls on a disk is my favorite use. The army is a mid board army so you can shuffle him around from rubric to rubric. And advancing isn't bad for them since it doesn't affect casting.
If you find yourself with breathing room you can even switch out one of his spells for a cp.
How do YOU kit your rhinos? Do you ever take the launcher? Combi-melta?
I'm tempted to invest in Rhinos... but I don't want them just to be "armored boxes". Can they work as fire-support?
a just recently bought a chaos rhino for my tsons. not had a chance to actually paint and use it yet (life keeps getting in the way), but i will tell you of my experenice:
its kitted out with 2 combi bolters and a havoc launcher. my logic was basically a ghetto razorback, a IFV type vehicle with enough firepower to have some contribution to the firefight. I had to do a bit of bodging to make it all work.
the kit in the box only comes with one combi and the havoc launcher. i re-purposed a spare combi bolter form my termies, snipped the hand off it and just glued it straight onto the crew hatch, almost like a old-style rhino bolter. the other crew hatch has the rhino kit's marine manning a 2nd combi bolter, modded with spare rubic helmet and sholder pads to look more thousand sons. the base rhino kit comes with the rear roof with turret ring for the loyalist razorback, (the actual guns for it, i believe, are on a seperate sprue that is replaced with the chaos spikes sprue), so i stuck that on with the conventional rhino top hatch doors stuck underneath it to make a workable turret ring to stick the havoc launcher on. the whole thing works, but i had to aim everything off to one side as otherwise the launcher is shooting into the gunner.
Some images of my meagre efforts
Spoiler:
Game rules wise, the rhino i built is 90 points (less than 4 rubrics) and for that, you have a platform that is slightly more durable than 4 rubics (2 more wounds, T7 & same save), with equal or slightly better shooting (two combi bolters= 4 regular ones, all with -2AP, with the havoc on top), but doesnt have OPSEC or All is Dust. frankly, its got some potential as a backup for a flamer squad pushing up the board, or to camp on a rear objective and free up more expensive guys to get up the table.
dreadlybrew wrote: Trying to figure out the math on imbued incantation and prism of echos.
Let's say cult of duplicity teleport blessing has a range of 6", do we double that then add 6? Or do we add 6 then double? Based on maths on weapon x2 and + str bonus i am inclined to say that you only get 18 inches here. But given that this is a on cast layering effect can you layer it to add 6 then double?
I play it as 18" but only because that's the most conservative of the two possibilities.
xeen wrote: ...I stole the idea from that guy who won in Austraila and put temporal surge on two of the SoT that started on the board. Then deepstruck the third. I was scoring primary like crazy. I really like the 3 x 5 man SoT and the temporal surge really gets them moving. I took Time since I was using surge and it felt just a maneuverable as duplicity.
Thanks for sharing your experience!
I agree Temporal surge is super important. I used to run it on all my rubrics/occults. However, the limitation here is it's hard to cast needing a 7+ and its short range tends to mean it's in deny range. For such a pivotal power that's problematic. The solution that I've been enjoying is the following:
Exalted Sorcerer, disk, Dilettante - 160
Relic: Prism of Echoes and Athenaean Scroll
Powers: Temporal Surge, Pyric Flux (or whatever power you want)
The Prism means you can cast Temporal Surge at 12" or 18" (with the range ritual) and the Scroll means it's all but guaranteed to go off. This means you don't have to take temporal surge on all you units, it can be cast out of deny range and it goes off very reliably. If you run duplicity this sorcerer is great for casting sorcerous facade out of deny range too (as you can cast it at 12" or 18" rather than 6").
I've found firestorm very unreliable and swingy even with the scroll. Using the scroll on something so swingy feels like a waste to me.
Anyway, this particular exalted sorcerer set up as been an absolute MVP for me. He can combo really well with other exalted sorcerers as they no longer need to waste a cast on temporal surge. For example you can move Ahriman forward cast a bunch of witchfires and then use this sorcerer to temporal surge Ahriman back to safety (reliably and out of deny range). You can also cast it reliably and make it undeniable (if you can't be out of deny range) as you no longer need to use pact from beyond to guarantee that it goes off (meaning you can combo it with cabbalistic focus).
Hope that's useful.
That is a good idea. I am going to try that out with the scrolls and the prism for long range buffing
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, Xerxes that is a sweet conversion for the Rhino
xeen wrote: I had a game against Tyranids last weekend. My list was Ahriman on disc, Exalted on disc, Infernal Master, 3 x 5 man SoT, 2 x Hellbrute with LC/ML, 1 unit of 5 man rubics with flamers, 1 unit of 5 man rubrics with bolters, 1 unit of 9 man rubircs with bolters, and a Leviathan. I won by 10+ points despite being tabled on turn 5, and down to just Ahriman and one squad on turn 4.
I stole the idea from that guy who won in Austraila and put temporal surge on two of the SoT that started on the board. Then deepstruck the third. I was scoring primary like crazy. I really like the 3 x 5 man SoT and the temporal surge really gets them moving. I took Time since I was using surge and it felt just a maneuverable as duplicity. 5 are more than enough to cause issues, and with 3 squads my opponent said he felt like there was just pressure on him on every front. And damage 1 is not hurting them, and with only 5 the -1d strat is only 1 CP which really helps their survivabilty. Also compared to Rubrics, the SoT can actually do some work in CC, so I feel that they are much better at moving up the field to take objectives. I think every list I build is going to include the 3 x SoT units.
Also I used the Scrolls with Firestorm form my Exalted. Man, that roll 3 then pick really makes a huge difference with getting the 9+ psychic roll. It is still a bit swing-y as one time I rolled one 5, and another four 6s (needing them) so you never really know what it will do, but with the malevolent charge and the scrolls it can be scary good at assassinating characters or support units.
I did not get to see what the Leviathan could do with the infernal master, as he got charged turn 1 by a flying hive tyrant (they have some crazy strat that lets them move again, so 32 inch move with that). For my next game I am dropping the Leviathan and putting in a Daemon Prince, some cultists (for the new detachment so I can take said Daemon Prince).
I hope some of this was helpful.
Thanks for sharing! I find that Temporal Surge is one of our most important psychic that we will use. So, having it cast either by scrolls or by Ahriman (who gets to reroll) is very important. You can usually live with any other psychic not going off, but temporal surge has to go off. It makes a huge difference. Sorcerous Facade is another important one, but that is WC 8 so you will usually cast it using cabal points to autocast anyway and you only have that if you are taking cult of duplicity anyway.
37 points for wings, or 1 cp for aetherstride for +3 inches of movement like fly with advance and charge and fall back and charge.
37 points gets me ardent automa qnd rites of coalesnec on my 10 man SOT bricks
I prefer the aetherstride over wings.
Keep 'em cheaper so that it doesn't mess up Last Man Standing if that's a possible secondary, and DPs are a risk of dying as you're aggressive with that unit whenever possible.
I have been largely unimpressed with my DP. I used to run 4 from two codices, and then dropped to 3 for a while after GW decided that differently named units count as the same unit (except for Loyalists, they can have nearly unlimited Lts smh).
Perhaps I ran him into a bad unit, but 5 attacks just doesn't feel the same as 8 did....
With battle psyker you should just kill the succubus with a doombolt and smite. I use battle psyker with Astral blast. With the qdded d3 mortal wounds you can kill 2 units.
Mushkilla wrote: Nice terminator sorcerer build. Alas chatterfowl wont work on a knight (it can only target infantry)..
Was this FAQ’d? It can only be equipped to an Infantry model, but otherwise I don’t see other restrictions.
No, ignore me. I mixed up the chatterfowl with the sorthis' mirror which only works on infantry, the chatterfowl can target anything but can only be taken by infantry.
dreadlybrew wrote: With battle psyker you should just kill the succubus with a doombolt and smite. I use battle psyker with Astral blast. With the qdded d3 mortal wounds you can kill 2 units.
Not always feasible. The nice thing about Chattefowl is that it is every fight phase so popping out of a boat still lets me guard a unit with intervene.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Has anyone pondered empyric guidance on multi meltas?
A contemptor with two of them could score some gnarly damage if it gets it within half range.
Headed to a 150 player tournament with the following:
Cult of Time
General plan is as such:
- Squads 6 & 7 pin the back field with the Forgefiend. I threw Psychic Stalk on one of them for opportunity plays. Both will likely smite all of the time.
- Rhino and squads 4 & 5 beat feet. They hop out, #5 gives Pyric Flux to #4 and #4 Surges itself into a weak point.
- Mutalith, Exalted, and #9 Scarabs anchor the middle. Scarabs have Guidance to get them sniping out to 30" or to give the Vindicator a lift. Exalted has crystal to punch out with the Scarabs if an opportunity opens.
- Ahriman and the Vindicator go up the other side. Ahriman can buff from behind cover and has Desecration to slow down problem units early on.
- Termie Sorc and #8 Scarabs plummet in. Scarab Sorc has flamer staff for lots of additional shooting. Perplex is here as well to turn off something occasionally.
I struggled to slim down to just 3 characters. I really wanted to make it difficult for my opponent to choose assassinate and I hope it will work. Abhor can still be maxed obviously, but no big deal there. I'll post up my thoughts on the missions and terrain the tournament has set up.
I am looking forward to seeing the results of your strategy. Good luck in the Tournament and keep us posted.
I played against Blood Angles last weekend. My list was Arhiman on disk, Exalted on Disk, Infernal Master, DP, 3 x 5 man SoT, 1 5 man Rubric with flamers, 1 5 man Rubric with bolters/soulreaper, 1 9 man Rubric with bolters/soulreaper, 10 man Cultists (for extra detachment for DP), 2 x hellbrute with LC/ML.
I ended up winning pretty convincingly with the same strategy I used in the last two games of being aggressive on getting and denying primary, with Mutate and Engage. This time I took Octarious Data again (figured cultists could do it), but only got two off. I think it is hard for TS to really utilize that one as you need all your units shooting/fighting and even if one unit has that ability to allow and action and shoot, that unit probably won't be in two table quarters. I think for secondaries we need to stick with things that don't really require normal actions.
I scored full points on Mutate again. If you are playing to get the primaries it is just such a good secondary, especially if the other side has no denies. I think any 5 or 6 objective map it is a must take. I have not scored less than 12 on it in 4 games.
I disagree with a previous comment that the Hellbrutes are worthless. They are not meta breaking awesome, however, the -1d with the 5++ makes them pretty resilient. They generally absorb the AT fire that would otherwise be going at the SoT. Then the LC is ok at shooting vehicles, but what they actually do well is pick off the last remaining models in elite units that were not finished off by psychic powers from range. In the game against the blood angles they killed his primaris dreadnought which was his only vehicle, but then went on to finish the last model in two Eradicator squads, and the last model in the intercepter squad (the jump guys). They really fill a need adding some long range punch.
Again the 3 SoT squads did really well, however be advised that they will die quick to melta in shooting, or any multi-damage CC attacks.
I was not impressed with the DP. Only 5 attacks plus the claw he just did not seem that killy even after swelled which only adds one attack(although he had to forego doing it once for mutate). Also if you want him to be more than a caster (which you do which is why I paid 2CP for extra detachment, plus his high point cost), you have to have the wings. You can't take the Aether, because you absolutely need the -1d trait. He easily would have died in this game without that trait. I actually think the Plate is probably more optional than the -1d, depending on what else you would bring.
Personally in my next list I am going to try something similar that was talked about here in taking a Terminator Sorcerer with Aether and battle psyker for kind of a daemon prince light. I am thinking of giving him the Psyker Bane staff, not because I am worried about killing psykers, but it has a natural -4 AP. With swell, that is 6 attacks hitting on 2, at strength 8, with a -4 d3d. For like 70 points less than a DP. If anyone else uses this killy sorcerer I would love to know how it works out.
I hold my DP back just to sort of keep my opponents honest. So its like a weapon I hope I don't need to use. So, if the opponent doesn't come close to my castors, then I don't need to activate my DP for a pre emptive or a counter charge.
I am fine if he doesn't see combat at all the whole game really. Or maybe I would fly him into combat on turn 4 or 5 because by then, it probably doesn't matter at that point if he lives or dies.
That's why psycologically, I think people are more likely to give a big scary DP more respect than they would an exalted sorceror on a disk. So I run a DP.
I do the same with the DP. But he is expensive in that roll. I am not saying he is bad by any stretch, I am just saying I don't know if he is an auto-include (like Ahriman).
Actually that brings me to an opinion that I was wondering how other people feel. After a fair number of games I really feel (barring a few exceptions below) our book is pointed perfectly. Rubrics and SoT feel like they are spot on, as does Ahriman and the Exalted, and even the DP doesn't feel over or under-costed. There is nothing that is glaringly under-costed in the book. I think GW did a really good job with this codex not making it Dark Eldar level stupid, but keeping it in line with the other 9th edition books. My only issues are:
Magnus - I have beaten this horse already many times, I just don't think he is worth 450.
The Space Marine Vehicles (Predator, Rhino, Land Raider, Vindicator)- This is actually a problem in every codex that these units are in. They are like 10-30 points to much. It is actually less of a problem in our book as the 5++ really helps these units, but technically we are not supposed to be factoring points for our detachment ability as no other army does (which is why cult of strife is a problem). If a predator was base 110, so 150 with LC or 130 with HB it would be really interesting. And the poor poor Landraider. Personally, I don't think they should decrease the points, they should make it T9 and fall back and still shoot.
But even the two above are not that bad for being overpriced. The only real MISS of the whole army is the enlightened.
Enlightened - why would anyone every pay 18 points per model for this unit? Other than some niche action monkey crap (which cultists and Tzgor can do) they offer nothing. The spears hit like a wet noodle even if you get into combat, which is unlikely since they are only T4 5++ 2W so any even remotely efficient shooting will wipe them. They also reduced the squad size to 6 so you can't even like hoard them up. I don't think I would take them even at 14 points. Maybe 12.
And then you have the bows. GW really missed the ball on these. First, no way they are worth 18 points. In their current form, again maybe 12? But what is real upsetting about the bows is GW's laziness with this unit. If they wanted to make them snipers why did they not make two data sheets. One for Enlightened, and then one for Skyfires, like in Sigmar. Then the Skyfires could lose the auto-wound 6's, but gain 1MW on a 6 to wound, you know, like every other sniper unit in the game!!! At this point I wish they kept the old bows over these ones.
Finally, just a little quirk thing for me, not really an issue, is I wish the Tzgor with chain swords and auto pistols were 6 points. Then the upgrade to blades could be 1 point per model. Right now there is no reason not to take the blades. If you could get the others a little cheaper that might make it less of a no brainer. But this isn't a big deal, unlike the enlightened.
But again other than above, I think our book is panning out pretty well.
dreadblade wrote: Apologies if this has already been asked (I've not read all 22 pages of this thread)...
Would you take Scarab Occult Terminators or Rubric Marines? Point-for-point, which are best in 9th edition given that both have ObSec?
Depends, both are really durable at range. And both can really put the hurt between the shooting and the psychic. And both really don't do well in combat (even if the Scarabs do way better). Personally I'm really partial to the Rubrics because of the Warpflamers. With the new Psychic power giving them +1 S on a 10 man unit you can really do work. Even in overwatch !
As for the Scarabs I tend to only ever take them in 5 men squads. To really use the -1 dmg against shooting strat.
dreadblade wrote: Apologies if this has already been asked (I've not read all 22 pages of this thread)...
Would you take Scarab Occult Terminators or Rubric Marines? Point-for-point, which are best in 9th edition given that both have ObSec?
I take three units of five man SoT in basically every list. Then warp flamer rubrics and some normal rubrics. But to be honest I think it kind of depends on your strategy. Are you taking rhinos? What else are you looking to put in the list. I would say you always want at least one unit of SoT and probably always one flamer rubric in every list. But after that I think it is more dependent on how you want to play.
dan2026 wrote: How are people using their Rubrics with Warpflamers?
Deep striking them in range?
Advancing them up the board?
In Rhinos?
Whats the general game plan for these guys?
I am considering starting Thousand Sons and could use some pointers.
I go with Rhinos. 5++ and 2 combi-melta/combi-bolter make our metal boxes pull their weight. But if there is a good defensible position in the mid board I like to deploy them inside a ruin (if possible) and try and go for warp ritual while they wait for my opponent's vanguard.
EightFoldPath wrote: If SoT were a troop choice I think I would take 6 units of 5 and no Rubrics.
The extra melee output on them compared to Rubric fists is what pushes them over the edge for me.
SoT aren't troops, but they do get ObSec...
Well, you can't spam them because they aren't a troop choice. So you can't take 6.
I think SoT and rubrics are pointed well. The thing about SoT is that they are not cheap. For one squad of SoT, you can get close to two squads of rubrics. So, literally 3 squads of SOT equals to 6 squads of rubrics (plus or minus a little). While SoT are much better in melee than rubrics, there are definitely some things that will kill them in melee and then you just lost double the points on that point as compared to if you threw a squad of rubrics onto it.
Rubrics aren't really about melee. They just want to get onto an objective and then take it away from the opponent. Then they stand there and are irritatingly hard to shoot off. And they are okish shooting as well and a psyker to cast a spell or a smite while they are at it.
SoT are your damage dealers. Their ranged firepower is really good, and they fight well in combat too. They are an all in one package, but they are expensive in points. But actually, I am think their melee is just their icing on the cake only. You don't really want your SoT caught in melee because you can't shoot while you are in melee. You also don't want them to be charged because they do not have a fight first or "make your opponent fight last" mechanic. If your opponent has a true melee unit that charges a SoT, it won't have a good time.
Ultimately, I think both are pointed perfectly, and both are great in their respective roles. Definitely bring both. You want cheap units that as not so painful to lose, as well as expensive units (like SoTs) that do more.
dan2026 wrote: How are people using their Rubrics with Warpflamers?
Deep striking them in range?
Advancing them up the board?
In Rhinos?
Whats the general game plan for these guys?
I am considering starting Thousand Sons and could use some pointers.
I like anything that gets them shooting in the enemy turn one. Orb, duplicity, advance and move again, risen rubrics. You want them in the enemy face ASAP. Especially if you are using max size.
EightFoldPath wrote: If SoT were a troop choice I think I would take 6 units of 5 and no Rubrics.
The extra melee output on them compared to Rubric fists is what pushes them over the edge for me.
I'm going to state that after a 6 round tournament that...Scarabs are pretty meh in comparison to other melee out there. The only time you'd want to be charging is to grab some distance.
Here's a good trick though -- start your Rites Scarabs on the board. Losing a model or two is a good thing. Then take your crystal and jump them. Resurrect a model and then place it closer. Tah-dah - you now have a 5 to 6 inch charge.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
dan2026 wrote: How are people using their Rubrics with Warpflamers?
Deep striking them in range?
Advancing them up the board?
In Rhinos?
Whats the general game plan for these guys?
I am considering starting Thousand Sons and could use some pointers.
Mine went in a rhino and I would have them warptime themselves. I only took one unit of 5. Some other units sprinkled with flamers/flamer pistols. They are a surgical unit. Against DE they'll turn overwatch off, but in many cases they make a superb deterrent.
Advancing is a no cost option for the unit regardless of rhinos or not.
EightFoldPath wrote: If SoT were a troop choice I think I would take 6 units of 5 and no Rubrics.
The extra melee output on them compared to Rubric fists is what pushes them over the edge for me.
I'm going to state that after a 6 round tournament that...Scarabs are pretty meh in comparison to other melee out there. The only time you'd want to be charging is to grab some distance.
...
Yeah, I'm not blown away by scarabs other than charging onto objectives to flip them. Being movement 5" vs 7-12" (advancing with flamer rubric) makes them real slow.
False alarm, 10 hellions had extra stratagems used on them and wernt allowed to do all those things it was accidental cheating. And the TO of the league might be awarding me a win.
dreadlybrew wrote: False alarm, 10 hellions had extra stratagems used on them and wernt allowed to do all those things it was accidental cheating. And the TO of the league might be awarding me a win.
dreadlybrew wrote: False alarm, 10 hellions had extra stratagems used on them and wernt allowed to do all those things it was accidental cheating. And the TO of the league might be awarding me a win.
All as planned it seems.
I was thinking about asking about the loadout for the Helions as that seemed a bit too good. You can of course buy 20 Helions and still have a lot of change left over compared to 10 SOTs, but that is because the points are wrong on most of that codex. I was recently laughing at the 3rd power from pain ability as it is actually probably stronger on its own than the entire Death Guard Inexorable Advance ability.
Phew ok, so...tournament! You'll have to forgive lack of overall details. My brain is shot and I didn't take enough pics.
Round 1 - Win - 87 to 43 vs IH & UM soup w/ Bobby
His list had a ton of shooting with plenty of rerolls, but he didn't have enough units to play objectives. He didn't move out enough to control so I eventually dominated the board.
Round 2 - Loss - 73 to 94 vs Drukhari
This was a more traditional list with the usual suspects. Incubi, wyches, drazhar, etc.
Mission was hold 1/2 and hammerhead deployment, which may have helped. This game was incredibly tense and fun. I went with mutate (12), ROD (12), and grind (9).
Mutalith was great on boats here. Biggest mistake - kill the Incubi boat first. They are the biggest problem.
Round 3 - Win - 87 to 70 vs DE
This list had the bomber, reavers, hellions, as well as plenty of boats. Hold 2/3 with Dawn of War. I deployed so that his bomber couldn't fly over me and drop. He went first so he set his bomber mid table. He killed the rhino and it blew up wounding Ahriman badly. With some bad luck I left that bomber on 1 wound which he dropped on Ahriman and smote him. From there I took revenge with the mutalith going beastmode.
That night I saw I was matched to a 2x8 bike, 2x5 squighogs, 2 buggies, ghaz, etc Ork list. I was certain this was going to be a layup for me since he had no D3 shooting and everything scary was melee. Top it off with it being the small long ways deploy.
Round 4
And that's where I first goofed - thinking this would be a breeze. His squigs deployed into reserves and everything else on the line. I was set back a little, but not terribly far considering a 28" no man's land. He went first...and decided to WAAAGH. gak. 20" bike moves. 8" charges into terminators and mutalith. He was Goffs so exploding 5s on the mutalith and down he went. The rites terminators held ( unsurprisingly ). On my turn I goofed again and didn't fallback with rubrics tying up the bikes. I was banking on Baleful cranking out enough MW to cause a leadership test. Out of 11 dice...no sixes. This left Ahriman and the Forgefiend very exposed. I had jumped my Exalted and rites termies behind his lines and started sniping out characters and objective holders. Then his squigs come in and thankfully fail both charges, but I was still working from a terrible position on a hold 2/3 and couldn't clean my DZ fast enough being down key pieces.
Loss 60 to 82. There were other more minor mistakes, too. Brutal outcome where I should have won if I played smarter.
Next game was Ravenguard successors - master artisans & exploding 6s in melee - 20 LC/SSVV, 2 redemptor, 2 volcons, 6 eliminators, sniper captain.
Already this was a concerning game due to the sniping and fast melee. I deployed to shield myself from a turn 1 charge by the VV should I lose the roll off, which I did. And he of course set up to make the charges. He crushed the terminators and landed on the other side in melee with the vindicators after taking out a rubric squad. I went ham in the psychic phase and took down the squad of 5 and another 3 of them, but then shooting came and he never failed a friggin' save so I still had a ton of very problematic models in my DZ. I stripped the invuln, but I don't know why - storm shields are getting that 4+ regardless. Don't waste your time with twist of fate as you won't have the tools to make a difference most of the time. Eventually I cleared them out and funneled all his dreadnoughts to the middle. At the point I jumped everything over / past cover and took out almost everything. But this was a hold 2/3 and I forgot that it also was one where you keep objectives after you move off and I didn't have enough time to recover.
Loss 54 to 97
Final game vs DG - 3 PBC, 2 volcons w/ Tally, 3x3 Shrouds, 90ish pox
This guy was a very competent player and by this point I was pretty tired and morale was low. He punished my mistakes pretty heavily. Rubrics in cover are great at not giving a crap about PBC mortars even if you don't have -1D, so, I focused the Shrouds down, but I lost my exalted too early to turn the game around. And by turn 2 I was already forgetting to do my secondaries.
Loss 45 to 94
So, not a stellar result. I was feeling pretty confident about getting 4-2 or 5-1, but I let myself get ahead too far and made too many mistakes rushing through things and forgetting secondaries.
What would I keep / change?
- 2x5 rubrics in a rhino are awesome. Flamers are great and did a good job making charge decisions tougher. Having to keep rubrics on backfield objectives sucked. More to follow here.
- Exalted is king. So many super smites.
- Vindicator was also great - landing huge hits and being scary enough to draw attention, but durable enough to take hits.
- Mutalith was a 50/50 experience. He came real close to blowing up in my lines multiple times. He whiffed hard in melee and spells didn't connect much, but when they did it was nice. I think I am going to drop him though, but this might put more heat on the vindicator.
- Forgefiend was good - would have been phenomenal if not for opponent's saves.
- Scarabs - superb...except when they're in melee. Never get them stuck in unless you need distance or can finish the target off.
- Terminator Sorc - okay-ish. I kept forgetting he had Aetherstride. He did not connect in melee. He will be dropped or revised.
- Ahriman - great, but I think I need to use him for more mortal wounds and less buffing. More to follow here, too.
I only tried out Vindicator once. Honestly, if opponent starts focusing on it, that's a big win in my book. The problem is if the opponent ignores it and it keeps wiffing, which it might. Its guns are very swingy.
And yeah, I realised this about Occult termies too. You don't want them in combat unless you can kill whoever you charge. And if it exposes them to being charged the next turn, that's not very good either. They are best standing at range and shooting and casting their psychic. Their melee is really just a bonus and maybe a deterrant to keeping your oppponent honest. They will still die hard to many of the dedicated melee threats out there.
Cool report, at least you had fun. And yeah, GTs are a Marathon, usually 10 hour plus days.
Have you considered switching over to Duplicity? It didn't sound like Time worked out all that well. I've found Duplicity, especially after the FAQ is just too good to pass up. I also use Ahriman for my offensive spells, he usually goes with the Terminator block as well to provide rerolls.
I think this is the new list. Dropping the Mutalith - just too dangerous. I really wanted the maneuverability of the Heldrake on top of it's fly over strat that does 3MW to a Raider and it should keep the target on him rather than on the Vindicator. Also some Tzaangors and a spawn to hold the home objective to get Rubrics moving more
Ahriman - Presage / Weaver / Gaze - making Ahriman slightly more offense based and planning to Doombolt with him more often when buffs aren't the better option.
Exalted - Scrolls / Crystal / Echo - Firestorm / Doombolt
DP ( no wings ) - Sword - Aether / Tutorum / Undying - Temporal / Swelled
dreadblade wrote: Apologies if this has already been asked (I've not read all 22 pages of this thread)...
Would you take Scarab Occult Terminators or Rubric Marines? Point-for-point, which are best in 9th edition given that both have ObSec?
I take three units of five man SoT in basically every list. Then warp flamer rubrics and some normal rubrics. But to be honest I think it kind of depends on your strategy. Are you taking rhinos? What else are you looking to put in the list. I would say you always want at least one unit of SoT and probably always one flamer rubric in every list. But after that I think it is more dependent on how you want to play.
I've currently gone with Ahriman, an Infernal Master, two 5-man Rubic squads with warpflamers and soulreaper cannons, and a 5-man SOT squad with a soulreaper cannon and helfyre missile rack. I've not got any vehicles yet, but I'm wondering about a Land Raider...
Automatically Appended Next Post: What do people do about psychic powers? Do you select the same powers for multiple units to give flexibility for where to use them? Or do you run different powers on different units so you can use them all every round?
@ Daedalus : If you’re not running Spawn, in your tournament list wouldn’t it make some sense to throw -1 to hit and a 4++ on the Mutalith? It’s a pretty chunky target and nothing else can get that 2D3 recovery.
dreadblade wrote: What do people do about psychic powers? Do you select the same powers for multiple units to give flexibility for where to use them? Or do you run different powers on different units so you can use them all every round?
dreadblade wrote: What do people do about psychic powers? Do you select the same powers for multiple units to give flexibility for where to use them? Or do you run different powers on different units so you can use them all every round?
dreadblade wrote: What do people do about psychic powers? Do you select the same powers for multiple units to give flexibility for where to use them? Or do you run different powers on different units so you can use them all every round?
Generally the latter is best, imo.
Its easier to have most of your rubrics having the same psychic though. Makes it much easier to do book keeping wise. And it easier for your opponent as well. Like oh, all the rubric marine squads have temporal surge. or all the rubric marines have doombolt. Much easier to remember for both compared to having to Mark out squad 1 to squad 4 of the rubric marines all differently, and having to remember which squad has which psychic.
Yoyoyo wrote: @ Daedalus : If you’re not running Spawn, in your tournament list wouldn’t it make some sense to throw -1 to hit and a 4++ on the Mutalith? It’s a pretty chunky target and nothing else can get that 2D3 recovery.
I'm dicey on the 2D3 recovery being allowed. Biggest problem is not going first and it popping on a 4+. If I had Duplicity I could deploy it way back and toss it forward. I don't think it works in a mono-time setup.
dreadblade wrote: What do people do about psychic powers? Do you select the same powers for multiple units to give flexibility for where to use them? Or do you run different powers on different units so you can use them all every round?
Generally the latter is best, imo.
Some lists build in redundancy if there's enough unit in the setup like the guy who took 40 rubrics and 2 rhinos. Then you just smite with the rest and do the crucial spells with the big guys. Most of my units have a specific role to play and I flex out spells as needed.
Daedalus81 wrote: I'm dicey on the 2D3 recovery being allowed. Biggest problem is not going first and it popping on a 4+.
Looking at the following abilities, the syntax reads as “this model is healed and regains”, which seems to be an intentional common denominator in making these abilities exclusive of each other. They also share the once per turn qualifier.
The MVB innate regen doesn’t share that common syntax (“is healed and regains”), and doesn't mention the once per turn qualifier, which I don’t think can be construed as an oversight. Which is good for the Mutalith but of course, hiding it T1 is an issue. Similar problem to Magnus I guess.
dreadblade wrote: What do people do about psychic powers? Do you select the same powers for multiple units to give flexibility for where to use them? Or do you run different powers on different units so you can use them all every round?
Generally the latter is best, imo.
Its easier to have most of your rubrics having the same psychic though. Makes it much easier to do book keeping wise. And it easier for your opponent as well. Like oh, all the rubric marine squads have temporal surge. or all the rubric marines have doombolt. Much easier to remember for both compared to having to Mark out squad 1 to squad 4 of the rubric marines all differently, and having to remember which squad has which psychic.
dreadblade wrote: What do people do about psychic powers? Do you select the same powers for multiple units to give flexibility for where to use them? Or do you run different powers on different units so you can use them all every round?
Generally the latter is best, imo.
Some lists build in redundancy if there's enough unit in the setup like the guy who took 40 rubrics and 2 rhinos. Then you just smite with the rest and do the crucial spells with the big guys. Most of my units have a specific role to play and I flex out spells as needed.
dreadblade wrote: Thanks for posting - I've been looking through that list to get pointers for mine...
Yea mutation is interesting and something that's always tempted me. He has a very weird fighty Exalted that seems more keen on mobility than anything else.
I've also been looking at Prophecy for my Terminator Sorcerer since he'd picking up reroll to hit, wound, and damage for the melta and then I'd have the miracle die spell for giggles. But to offset the CP cost I'd want an Infernal Master to kick out +1S or a reroll plus the psychic action for more CP.
Daedalus81 wrote: He has a very weird fighty Exalted that seems more keen on mobility than anything else.
I suspect he's going for something similar to what I've been playing around with on a Cult of time Exalted that I like better than the DP:
Exalted Sorcerer, Cult of Time, Dilettante, Hourglass of Manat, Seer's Bane, Disc of Tzeentch, Aetherstride
Twist of Fate, Temporal whatsitsnuts (Warptime).
The general idea is high mobility, potential for character killing or at least debuffing, with the Hourglass possibly giving you a nasty surprise, get-up, do it all over again. But it's 10 points cheaper than the DP, hits almost as hard, with a bit more utility I think.
No idea if it will be any good, but something to play around with.
Anyone tried running a trio of Hellbrutes (multi melta, fist) with a exalted or DP with the relic Egleighen's Orrery before?
Seems like a nice group with both melee and shooty capabilities and reasonably tanky too. They can move towards a mid point objective while shooting steadily and once there, they can fight on it, and will not be easy to shift from that objective.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Anyone tried running a trio of Hellbrutes (multi melta, fist) with a exalted or DP with the relic Egleighen's Orrery before?
Seems like a nice group with both melee and shooty capabilities and reasonably tanky too. They can move towards a mid point objective while shooting steadily and once there, they can fight on it, and will not be easy to shift from that objective.
I'd probably do plasma. Orrey doesn't do much for MM and you can get more shots out of plasma occasionally ( or with blast ), but can't shoot into combat, soo... It's also a tad bit cheaper, but if you have just the ez build brutes then MM, of course.
I think it'd be reasonably effective. Terrain might make it hard to get them there at the same time. You can't redeploy them so no tricking out their deployment.
Admech can probably tear down 1 and 1/2 per turn so you'd have to be careful on what they can see or if they have fliers.
You know...you could actually go Prophecy. That gives you a miracle dice to swap in and then you can give one of the dreads reroll a hit, wound, and damage. You'll lose out on Orrey though. Alternatively go Scheming so you can fallback, shoot, and charge and then give them obsec.
I don't actually want to throw them into combat turn 1. (Not like they will get there). But while they are steadily moving forward, they also provide a decent counter charge deterrant. They also provide a much needed Melee threat for a Tsons army.
If I meet something like Admech which can murder them more easily, I would probably hide them behind obscuring and just hope to get good angles to shoot at to the midboard.
One single Hellbrute can probably be ignored, but three seems like a good number in that even if one goes down, the other two will still be a substantial threat.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I don't actually want to throw them into combat turn 1. (Not like they will get there). But while they are steadily moving forward, they also provide a decent counter charge deterrant. They also provide a much needed Melee threat for a Tsons army.
If I meet something like Admech which can murder them more easily, I would probably hide them behind obscuring and just hope to get good angles to shoot at to the midboard.
One single Hellbrute can probably be ignored, but three seems like a good number in that even if one goes down, the other two will still be a substantial threat.
What I might even suggest is getting enough deployment drops to make it hard for them to put all of their anti-tank on the same side as the helbrutes. Like 3x1 spawn and maybe 3 spear enlightened just to pad out ( and then you have good deepstrike protection and an objective grabber ). DP can drop where they will officially go, but they won't know that he's part of the that group.
People that tell you that you need to run up to objectives turn 1 are wrong and it will definitely lose you the game against DE. You need to consider carefully their advance and charge ranges and always watch the wych and incubi boats. Incubi are the bigger priority, because they bring D2/D3. D1 wyches don't to much unless they drop a bunch of 6s - it's the succubus that's painful. Incubi will have lots more buffs those and they can even spike terminators.
A note on their ability to overwatch. They use it 'when their unit is selected to charge', so they can't wait for you to declare O/W and counter it. Some may try to draw OW out with a boat charge on a flamer unit. If the boat is wounded and you have CP for +1 to wound then go for it since they're going to turn off OW for wyches anyway.
Your list has an overall weakness vs -1 damage abilities. The contemptors and the rapiers overstack your list to D2. Orrey can help the contemptors so consider axing the rapiers. Something to consider for the future, anyway.
Auspex just weighed in on this codex this morning with a tier list, might add to the conversation. While his placement of Magnus is fair, he should have mentioned all the ways Magnus can heal (AETHERIC SATURATION, WARPED REGENERATION, TEMPORAL MANIPULATION) for potentially 3D3 wounds healed per turn.
Do you guys think the MUTALITH VORTEX BEAST would function well as a "distraction carnifex"/healing source (atheric saturation) for magnus, especially when used with sorcerous facade? Auspex is saying the biggest issue is closing in with the beast.
fistsofgork wrote: he should have mentioned all the ways Magnus can heal (AETHERIC SATURATION, WARPED REGENERATION, TEMPORAL MANIPULATION) for potentially 3D3 wounds healed per turn
No Magnus may not do that, Magnus certainly may not have nice things. All the healing sources say a model may only be healed once per turn, so Magnus can be healed D3 per turn maximum.
fistsofgork wrote: he should have mentioned all the ways Magnus can heal (AETHERIC SATURATION, WARPED REGENERATION, TEMPORAL MANIPULATION) for potentially 3D3 wounds healed per turn
No Magnus may not do that, Magnus certainly may not have nice things. All the healing sources say a model may only be healed once per turn, so Magnus can be healed D3 per turn maximum.
I would put Spawn in Tier 1. I mean, they are so good for their points already. I fail to see how much better they have to be to make tier 1. They are cheap and good and tanky and faster than infantry to boot. Put weaver of fates on them and they are a nightmare to remove. And even if your opponent does kill them, its 115 points for a unit of 5. No big deal even if you lost all of them.
Need them to go fast, cast temporal surge on them so that they move 14 inches and still get to charge. And they are great at killing 2W marines in close combat. A 5 man spawn unit going into a unit of 5 marines will almost definitely kill it off that objective, especially if you use that mutation stratgem.
Yoyoyo wrote:I feel like the Contemptor might be more like a Tier 1.5. Not because the Datasheet is bad but field 2 and essentially you just lost a cult.
Yeah, I run 2x Volcons, and due to that I can only run a single cult. I already start with 9 CP and I can't really sacrifice anymore with out CP hungry we are. That being said 2 Colcons with the Orrey is very powerful
Daedalus81 wrote:
Yoyoyo wrote: Just going to summarize that Auspex Tactics tier list video, for expediency.
Tier 1: All HQs, Rubrics, Scarabs, Rhinos. This seems fair enough. Contemptors are here too.
Tier 2: All Tzaangor keyword units. Cultists, Spawn, Helbrutes, Magnus.
Tier 3: MVB, all old-school tanks, all Daemon Engines.
Forgefiend ( 2x Cannon, Plasma ) in 3 seems excessively pessimistic to me.
Yeah, the Triple Ecto has popped up more than once in some Podium lists. It is a not a bottom tier unit for sure.
dreadblade wrote: I thought Helldrakes were supposed to be good now too?
It's more vulnerable than it used to be, but I quite like it. If you go first it's very useful.
I played with one helldrake a few games and I'am removing it from my list. It either died to fast or didn't really earn back his points. Removing 5 ad mech infiltrators in cover still takes 3 turns and meanwhile the battle rages on and it is not contributing anything.
Something else, played against grey knights with my thousand sons:
- I got one contemptor with volkite blasters and missile launcher and I like the possibility to get an extra shooting attempt with the 'forewarning' stratagem. With a contemptor at one side and my terminators at the other flank I really got my deployment zone covered. Grey knights want to deepstrike/teleport close and that really gives a nice ' stay of my lawn' effect. I probably going to add two single spawn models so that I can close down my deployment zone against deep striking units.
- I really like the 10 terminator setup with cult of time. 3 wound models that could get a -1 damage in combination with reviving models, is really a pain for grey knights. You end up fighting a dreadknight on a objective and keep scoring and meanwhile the dreadknight loses more and more wounds.
- I also might keep the daemon prince instead of an exalted sorcerer... Against the dreadknights it is nice to have an extra close combat counter attack unit.
- Against grey knights, psychic powers are off course all over the place and that resulted in a lot of failed attempts for both of us. Both armies really need to know what the other can do so you can arrange the deny the witch attempts accordingly.
- I totally forgot that the reroll 1 aura only effects 'core' units now, so no reroll 1 for the daemon prince... lesson learned...
So I've got around 2k of TS built up, never actually used them yet, not even in 8th. Might have a 2k doubles game coming up this week, alongside my friend who runs Orks, will probably be against Necrons and something else.
Just wondering how this looks for a 1k list:
HQ Exalted Sorcerer - Disk of Tzeench
Sorcerer
Troops
10x Rubrics - Soulreaper, Icon of Flame
5x Rubrics - Soulreaper - Icon of Flame
Comes to 941. I have some more Rubrics, another Hellbrute, a Defiler and a Daemon Prince at my disposal. It feels a bit light to me. I've seen good things done with the Scarabs but I'm unsure as to wherever 5 is enough. Overall I'm wondering if it's worth swapping out the Hellbrute for the Defiler.
Additionally, what spells should I be focusing on, and on who?
An Exalted Sorcerer kitted out with Aetherstride, Relic Disc and a Kopesh seems to be able to act quite similarly to the Heldrake, as far as a unit that can dive 30” at will and start causing trouble.
Valkyrie wrote: So I've got around 2k of TS built up, never actually used them yet, not even in 8th. Might have a 2k doubles game coming up this week, alongside my friend who runs Orks, will probably be against Necrons and something else.
Just wondering how this looks for a 1k list:
HQ Exalted Sorcerer - Disk of Tzeench
Sorcerer
Troops
10x Rubrics - Soulreaper, Icon of Flame
5x Rubrics - Soulreaper - Icon of Flame
Comes to 941. I have some more Rubrics, another Hellbrute, a Defiler and a Daemon Prince at my disposal. It feels a bit light to me. I've seen good things done with the Scarabs but I'm unsure as to wherever 5 is enough. Overall I'm wondering if it's worth swapping out the Hellbrute for the Defiler.
Additionally, what spells should I be focusing on, and on who?
I would drop out the sorcerer and swap in the DP. You have 59 left plus 90 which is 149 so drop the rubrics to a 9 man (tzeentch’s number) and you can put one in without wings. This is similar to my 50 point crusade list (swap you sorcerer for infernal master and put warp flamers on the 5 man) which I have had a lot of success with. Don’t sleep on 5 man SoT. They are good
Yoyoyo wrote: An Exalted Sorcerer kitted out with Aetherstride, Relic Disc and a Kopesh seems to be able to act quite similarly to the Heldrake, as far as a unit that can dive 30” at will and start causing trouble.
Ehhh. You're moving 18.5" turn 1. You can warptime yourself and guarantee a charge, but you're putting a lynchpin character in their lines to die next turn. With just one cast ( more with CP ) he's doing very little.
Maybe 4 wounds to an admech flyer in melee if you have swelled on. Heldrake does 5.5 damage in melee plus flamer on some worthwhile target. It can drop a flat 3MW on something with FLY. It move blocks so much better. You can drop to hover and still get enough distance to charge a back field objective holder. And it has more than twice the wounds with a better toughness.
And it does that without a WL trait, relic, and spells.
Daedalus81 wrote: Ehhh. You're moving 18.5" turn 1. You can warptime yourself and guarantee a charge, but you're putting a lynchpin character in their lines to die next turn. With just one cast ( more with CP ) he's doing very little.
The Exalted Sorcerer is a 2/1 caster. I think you need Dilettante and Seer's Bane for the Exalted Disc Sorcerer to be really effective. At that point it's cheaper than the DP, hits almost as hard, and is more easily buffed. Temporal Surge, for example, doesn't work on the DP or Magnus anymore, but it will work on a disc rider. What you do for a second relic is a matter of taste.
@ Daedalus : Point taken but you always want the take the most favourable trade possible. Which means something like their linchpin HQ (ie. Logi Manipulus w/Luminiscent, Flare), not a plane.
If you don’t have a great trade, well, it’s still a 2/1 psyker as mentioned which generates cabal points and can hide as a character. There’s no reason to simply throw a HQ away.
True, but you'd definitely have to put MW into them before charging and hop the final rolls don't get spiked by an invuln. It's otherwise an easy 6 points if they have assassinate and abhor. I'll keep my mind open though.
Art of War just interviewed Liam who went on a 18-0 streak with his Tsons list. Liam ran only 2 characters in the entire list. He didn't even run an Infernal Master.
I checked that interview and it’s more interesting to understand his strategy and tactics than list composition.
Essentially it’s board control Rubrics, backed up with Rhinos, Spawn and a Terminator brick. Nothing fancy but extremely well-considered and constructed, and amply supported with some very underhanded tricks from Time Flux.
How would a Land Raider fare as an alternative toa Rhino. With the 5++ is it viable? More flexible as it can take SoT as well as Rubrics? Decent anti-tank too?
dreadblade wrote: How would a Land Raider fare as an alternative to a Rhino. With the 5++ is it viable? More flexible as it can take SoT as well as Rubrics? Decent anti-tank too?
it has the same problem it always has: it has two mostly incompatible jobs, both of which can be done cheaper by other units, and you pay a hefty premium for the "flexibility". its neither fish nor fowl but is expensive for just one of those.
transport wise, being able to carry termies isnt that big of a deal when the SoT can natively deep strike to get on a objective, and while two twin lascannons are decent AT, you could get that on 2 dreads for almost the same price, and have a more survivable solution to boot, or a lascannon predator for significantly less..
a rhino isnt amazing, but it does have a few things going for it:
its less than a 1/3 the points price of a LR, and cheap enough that if it gets blown up, its not really a big loss so long as it got its cargo on the point
its takes a dedicated transport slot, not a heavy support like a Raider, and using the Raider as a battle taxi means you;ve blocked off a heavy support slot you could potenailly use on something else.
A rhino full of rubrics is a target, but it can be overlooked or ignored in favour of a presumed greater threat. A Raider with termies inside is the single most juicy target in your army and will attract every shred of AT firepower the opponent can bring to bear.
To make the LR worth it for Tsons, you absolutely need to have a big plan for a squad of 5 occult terminators that you put into the LR. Because if its to transport rubric marines, then you might as well use the Rhino for one third the cost.
And so the question is, what's the big plan for that squad of occults? Is it to enable you to push them onto an objective?
The LR can also shoot decently, and it can even charge into combat and tie up stuff. I mean, its a fairly large model that shoots into combat. So, if doesn't really lose much effectiveness even if its locked in combat. So, you could actually use its large bulk to block up approaches. Some armies might have problems killing a T8 vehicle with 16 wounds that can pop smoke and has a 5++, 2+ save.
But if its just for its shooting, you might as well get other shooty stuff. You could get two triple ectoplasma cannon Forgefiends for just 310 points. And that's 6d3 AP 3, Damage 3 blast shots. And now you have 24 T7 wounds that regenerate each turn compared to 16 T8 wounds.
If you want to throw a vehicle into combat, a maulerfiend or a Mutalith or even a hellbrute is probably better. So really, its all about whether you can utilise its terminator transport capability, because that is the only really unique thing about the LR.
And its 300 points, so add the squad of terminators you put in it, you are putting over 500 points into this package. So it better achieve alot!
Ahriman on Disc
Exalted Sorcerer on disc
4x 10 Rubric marines
10 SOT 2x 5 Chaos Spawns
2x Chaos Rhino
11 Cabal Points
It's really worth listening to the first half of the podcast (I haven't listened to the second "premium" half yet). Despite the plethora of warlord traits and especially relics available to the TSons, his design philosophy is simple and he sticks to it religiously. TSons are good at being weirdly mobile and holding objectives, and so he builds his playstyle around that. He doesn't try including a killy Daemon Prince (for example) because, as he puts it, TSons just aren't that great at actually killing stuff, so you should play to their strengths instead (i.e., being annoying as hell to move off of objectives). That leads to picking stuff like Mutate Landscape, Raise the Banners, etc., that reward you for doing what you're already going to be doing anyway: taking and holding objectives. Presumably, if you really do need something dead, that's what Ahriman, the Spawn, and the SOTs are for (in fact, he's been so impressed by the SOTs that he's considering dropping some Rubrics and adding more SOTs to his list).
I've listened to the first half and the way he talked about the Rhinos and how he uses them is very cool. Although I was imagining trying to do the same at the extremely variable terrain setups I get at the tournaments I go to and shaking my head.
I would be interested to know what his win rate against various factions was/is. Has he been beating Dark Eldar and AdMech or getting lucky to avoid them? Which can happen. My last 10 tournament games have been 8 power armour factions, 1 necron, 1 (not dark) elf.
dreadblade wrote: I thought Helldrakes were supposed to be good now too?
It's more vulnerable than it used to be, but I quite like it. If you go first it's very useful.
I played with one helldrake a few games and I'am removing it from my list. It either died to fast or didn't really earn back his points. Removing 5 ad mech infiltrators in cover still takes 3 turns and meanwhile the battle rages on and it is not contributing anything.
Something else, played against grey knights with my thousand sons:
- I got one contemptor with volkite blasters and missile launcher and I like the possibility to get an extra shooting attempt with the 'forewarning' stratagem. With a contemptor at one side and my terminators at the other flank I really got my deployment zone covered. Grey knights want to deepstrike/teleport close and that really gives a nice ' stay of my lawn' effect. I probably going to add two single spawn models so that I can close down my deployment zone against deep striking units.
- I really like the 10 terminator setup with cult of time. 3 wound models that could get a -1 damage in combination with reviving models, is really a pain for grey knights. You end up fighting a dreadknight on a objective and keep scoring and meanwhile the dreadknight loses more and more wounds.
- I also might keep the daemon prince instead of an exalted sorcerer... Against the dreadknights it is nice to have an extra close combat counter attack unit.
- Against grey knights, psychic powers are off course all over the place and that resulted in a lot of failed attempts for both of us. Both armies really need to know what the other can do so you can arrange the deny the witch attempts accordingly.
- I totally forgot that the reroll 1 aura only effects 'core' units now, so no reroll 1 for the daemon prince... lesson learned...
Just a tip about that inescapable forewarning strategem. Just like any other auspax scans, it is only activated during the reinforcement phase when they bring in stuff from deep strike. This strategem does NOT work when they teleport in a unit using their psychic spell like the old gate of eternity (forgot what the new psychic is called).
Similarly, any auspax scans type of shenanegans does NOT work against us if we are using either that Umbrelefic crystal (because that is activated during the command phase) or when we are using sorcerous facade to yeet something over because that is during the psychic phase. So, unless you are talking about deep strikes, that strategem is less useful than you think in a grey knights vs Tsons matchup.
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EightFoldPath wrote: I've listened to the first half and the way he talked about the Rhinos and how he uses them is very cool. Although I was imagining trying to do the same at the extremely variable terrain setups I get at the tournaments I go to and shaking my head.
I would be interested to know what his win rate against various factions was/is. Has he been beating Dark Eldar and AdMech or getting lucky to avoid them? Which can happen. My last 10 tournament games have been 8 power armour factions, 1 necron, 1 (not dark) elf.
I listened to the first half as well. Really cool. And I imagine his Rhinos survive because there are just so many other stuff to worry about. Consider if you are the opponent. You have a big squad of 10 man occults that deals out deadly shooting, you have 4 squads of 10 man rubrics, you then have another 2 squads of 5 chaos spawn. Any one of these require a serious effort to remove even if they are open to be shot at. Given these, how much would he really devote into shooting two transports that have a 5++ and that can blow smoke for a -1 to hit ? Because if you fail to kill the Rhino, you just wasted a lot of shooting, and even if you did, the rubrics inside just pile out. The Rhino is not even obsec while the rubrics and Occults are. Also, bear in mind that if he keeps the relic Umbralefic crystal in his backpocket, then he has the option to yeet something over any time he really wants, and temporal surge is always a thing, so killing a Rhino may not actually accomplish that much.
Are you sure Forewarning does not work against the Crystal? I think it would.
The unit may be picked up in the Command phase but it is set up as a reinforcement at the end of the movement phase, which is the qualifier for the strat.
Tremble wrote: Are you sure Forewarning does not work against the Crystal? I think it would.
The unit may be picked up in the Command phase but it is set up as a reinforcement at the end of the movement phase, which is the qualifier for the strat.
Oh you are right. My bad. I usually just set the unit up in command phase so that I won't forget. I didn't realise it came in during the reinforcement phase. You are right. It works on the crystal. But not against the grey knight gate of eternity or our sorcerous facade.
Played a game against Deathguard yesterday. Wow, Tsons are tough for Deathguard to handle. We played cagey using terrain for first two turns. But his PBC mortars just couldn't do much. They are swingy and I could pay 1 cp to make a rubric squad -1 to damage. He had problems even killing off one Rubric squad.
And the one PBC, one Lawnmower drone and the one Volkite contemptor that poked their heads out to shoot or to get one a center objective got destroyed.
Turn 3, he made a big play and charged in two squads of deathshroud, one Lawnmower drone and one squad of Blightlords (bulk of his army). He sort of wiffed. Then it was my turn. By the time my psychic and shooting ended, the Lawnmower Drone was dead, both Deathshroud squads were down to one terminator each and the Blightlord squad was down to three man, and everything was about to be counter charged by a full ten man Occult squad and a 5man chaos spawn squad.
He said (and I agree), that if he didn't make that big play and just hid behind obscuring, he would have eventually lost the game too.
MW are just so brutal against DG. All their high toughness, disgustingly resilient and even terminator armor is useless against MW.
I am playing a Tyranids player in my next game. This is my first time playing against the new Nids. In fact, its the first time I am playing against Tyranids period. So, I am a total newbie against this army.
He will be Leviathan (of course because all the new rules from the new Octarious book), fielding two big squads of Hive Guard, the Swarmlord, Neurothrope, Broodlord, a max unit of genestealers, 3 min squads of gaunts, two squads of Tyranid warriors, 2 lictors and a Maleceptor.
My list will be 2 exalted sorcerors on foot, an Infernal master, 6 barebones Rubric Marine squads, a Rhino, a 10 man occult termi squad, 2 x 5 chaos spawn units, 3 x Hellbrutes (plasma cannon and missile launcher).
Should I be aggressive? Or play my usual game, which is more defensive. For a Tyranids list, he doesn't look like he has that much scary melee actually, only Swarmlord and the genestealers, and maybe that Maleceptor?
I heard that if I can tag the hiveguard, I can negate them. But of course the problem will be that he might have his whole army around the hiveguard, so trying to tag it might mean having to go through his entire army.
I don't think I should bother with the lictors. They are so cheap and probably for something like ROD. I doubt if I can screen so much I stop a one model deep striker from coming in. Not unless I clump my entire army in my deployment zone and stay there the whole game, and I let his hive guard blast me to bits for 5 turns.
Staying in cover seems pointless too, since hive guard ignore cover and shoot out of line of sight. We are playing on the Orlando style GW terrain layout. (4 huge square area terrain pieces, etc).
My army isn't great in melee. But like I said, I can just tag him, I don't have to kill him in melee. And while not great, they are fine going into gaunts. (I don't know about nid warriors though and the big genestealer unit and swarm lord and Maleceptor might be a problem). The other option is to just try and have a shoot out and MW spell exchange. But He can hide behind cover, while I can't.
Also, which kind of secondaries would be best for such a game? We are playing Priority Target, so its a 5 objective mission map.
Priority target is often picked by both sides. I suppose I will pick that too. With my army, I am looking at either mutate landscape or wrath of Magnus (because he has psykers too). So, which is better? I will definitely pick one of these two.
The third one is a bit tricky. I could take raise banners and try and aggressively push forward. If I can get banners on 3 objectives early, and not let them fall I could get decent points (provided my army still has some models left by turn 5).
I could also take stranglehold if I am already trying for a more aggressive strategy. I kind of like this because it would make it a more interesting game instead of just me hunkering down and waiting to get shot up by his hive guard.
Also, what to do with my 3 Hellbrutes in the game? I usually clump them together around an exalted sorceror to give them reroll 1s. But in this game, I was thinking of splitting them up on my back two back objectives. They can add some more tough wounds on my back objectives which would make it harder for him to blast me off my 2 back objectives because they are -1 damage with a 5++. I mean, I doubt he will let me even see his hive guard, and I got bolters aplenty for everything else.
Finally, how should I handle the Maleceptor? Just tag it in combat and leave it? I don't know how dangerous it is really.
So, tips and advice would be much much appreciated! Thanks !!!!
I am playing a Tyranids player in my next game. This is my first time playing against the new Nids. In fact, its the first time I am playing against Tyranids period. So, I am a total newbie against this army.
He will be Leviathan (of course because all the new rules from the new Octarious book), fielding two big squads of Hive Guard, the Swarmlord, Neurothrope, Broodlord, a max unit of genestealers, 3 min squads of gaunts, two squads of Tyranid warriors, 2 lictors and a Maleceptor.
My list will be 2 exalted sorcerors on foot, an Infernal master, 6 barebones Rubric Marine squads, a Rhino, a 10 man occult termi squad, 2 x 5 chaos spawn units, 3 x Hellbrutes (plasma cannon and missile launcher).
Should I be aggressive? Or play my usual game, which is more defensive. For a Tyranids list, he doesn't look like he has that much scary melee actually, only Swarmlord and the genestealers, and maybe that Maleceptor?
I heard that if I can tag the hiveguard, I can negate them. But of course the problem will be that he might have his whole army around the hiveguard, so trying to tag it might mean having to go through his entire army.
I don't think I should bother with the lictors. They are so cheap and probably for something like ROD. I doubt if I can screen so much I stop a one model deep striker from coming in. Not unless I clump my entire army in my deployment zone and stay there the whole game, and I let his hive guard blast me to bits for 5 turns.
Staying in cover seems pointless too, since hive guard ignore cover and shoot out of line of sight. We are playing on the Orlando style GW terrain layout. (4 huge square area terrain pieces, etc).
My army isn't great in melee. But like I said, I can just tag him, I don't have to kill him in melee. And while not great, they are fine going into gaunts. (I don't know about nid warriors though and the big genestealer unit and swarm lord and Maleceptor might be a problem). The other option is to just try and have a shoot out and MW spell exchange. But He can hide behind cover, while I can't.
Also, which kind of secondaries would be best for such a game? We are playing Priority Target, so its a 5 objective mission map.
Priority target is often picked by both sides. I suppose I will pick that too. With my army, I am looking at either mutate landscape or wrath of Magnus (because he has psykers too). So, which is better? I will definitely pick one of these two.
The third one is a bit tricky. I could take raise banners and try and aggressively push forward. If I can get banners on 3 objectives early, and not let them fall I could get decent points (provided my army still has some models left by turn 5).
I could also take stranglehold if I am already trying for a more aggressive strategy. I kind of like this because it would make it a more interesting game instead of just me hunkering down and waiting to get shot up by his hive guard.
Also, what to do with my 3 Hellbrutes in the game? I usually clump them together around an exalted sorceror to give them reroll 1s. But in this game, I was thinking of splitting them up on my back two back objectives. They can add some more tough wounds on my back objectives which would make it harder for him to blast me off my 2 back objectives because they are -1 damage with a 5++. I mean, I doubt he will let me even see his hive guard, and I got bolters aplenty for everything else.
Finally, how should I handle the Maleceptor? Just tag it in combat and leave it? I don't know how dangerous it is really.
So, tips and advice would be much much appreciated! Thanks !!!!
Don't know about all the octarious rules but I think you got to fight it out on the objectives. You don't need all objectives just more than the opponent.
With the tyranid blood of baal rules he can still give the hive guards ignore -1 and -2 ap so shooting with bolters doesn't really work against them.
Maleceptor is not scary but it can give every unit within 6 inch " -1 Strength shooting hits" with stratagem.
Swarmlord can give a unit an extra move in the shooting phase so thats going to be the genestealers or the swarmlord himself.
I think you need to move forward with the spawns at the front, and also the "speedbumb" rhino. You got to take the incoming assault and punish them afterwards.The terminator squad is your best unit and reserve the command points to give them -1 damage and +1 to wound. 10 terminators with +1 Strength from the infernal master and +1 to wound from the stratagem removes anything with warpflame bolters. Terminators with -1 damage and -1 to hit (Glamour of Tzeentch) and maybe even a 4++ inv save are a pain for the tyranids. With 'all is dust' even genestealer rending claws are not that scary.
If you can spare the command points you might consider using the super deny the witch stratagem to counter that 5+ feel no pain psychic power (at the right moment).
Also with shadow in the warp (-1 psychic test within range of a synapse creature) and the amount of tyranid deny the witch options, you got to commit with the psychic powers you really need and use the bonus Cabalistic ritual points to make that happen.
If you can heal the terminators (cult of time?) you might also consider the "survive with the 3 most expensive units" secondary objectives. Then the terminators and sorcerers need to survive.
Against nids you have to worry about their anti psyker stuff. they always have psykers to deny the witch, a -1 to cast negates yours. and if they have kronos they can make you only roll 1d6 and for the right CP/WL combo every failed check you make can be 2d3 mortal wounds.
find a way to engage the hive guard as fast as possible. they are your hard counter.
dreadlybrew wrote: Against nids you have to worry about their anti psyker stuff. they always have psykers to deny the witch, a -1 to cast negates yours. and if they have kronos they can make you only roll 1d6 and for the right CP/WL combo every failed check you make can be 2d3 mortal wounds.
find a way to engage the hive guard as fast as possible. they are your hard counter.
And with this in mind mutate might be harder than wrath of magnus if he at least has smaller models you can pick off easily in the early game. It will be harder to stop multiple smites than a single psychic action -- unless you devote cabal points to making that auto-pass.
So check his available options before choosing the secondary.
Any recommendations on generic secondaries for Thousand Sons at 1000pts?
My army is typically Ahriman, 2 squads of Rubrics and 2 squads of SOC. I usually take one secondary from the Codex but I never quite know which to pick for my other two secondaries. I've had some luck with WWSWF / To the Last in about half the games I've played.
1000 pts you might want to consider dropping a 5 man SOT to 2 5 man Rubrics, arihman isnt better than an exalted sorc and a regular sorc/infernal master.
you need action economy at that points level.
take mutate landscape and save it for your last cast so you free cast all the pain.
I find grind them down works pretty well in smaller game. Especially if you run cult of time. On incursions we typically have less objectives to work with, so I prefer Psychic ritual compared to Mutate Landscape. If you want to Castle up, Banners is also nice since we are pretty hard to move at range. If you want to go the other way, engage can be pretty easy if you deepstrike your Rubric with flamer or your SOT. Wrath of Magnus can be great against the right comp but in smaller game I prefer to use Ahriman as a buffer.
Speaking of ... would you happen to have a pick of your metal Ahriman Never seen one !
In any case, have good games !
dreadlybrew wrote: Against nids you have to worry about their anti psyker stuff. they always have psykers to deny the witch, a -1 to cast negates yours. and if they have kronos they can make you only roll 1d6 and for the right CP/WL combo every failed check you make can be 2d3 mortal wounds.
find a way to engage the hive guard as fast as possible. they are your hard counter.
Yeah. Well, at least I don't need to worry about Kronos. It a hive fleet Leviathan list with all the new Octarious goodness. Both are good and have their risks. I can use cabal points to force through mutate landscape. But its a 5 objective map, so might be challenging to get that 4th or 5th objective. But 9 points should be doable and that's pretty good too. (I will certainly try and aim for 12 or 15 points if I can). The downside is that this drains a lot of my cabal points.
But wrath of magnus is risky in its own way too. He can use big monsters to screen in front (and he has smites too). And with two hive guard units shooting, I don't know how much of an army I will have left by turn 5. And turn 1 he can hide out of range + out of line of sight.
He will probably keep his hiveguard well back and surround them with lots of nasties. Getting to his hiveguard is going to be a challenge. I may have to tank the shots for the first few turns at least. The good thing is all of my rubrics are 5 man, so that Phalanx strategem to -1 damage just cost 1 cp. And my hellbrutes are default -1 damage anyway. And everything is 5++.
Correct. But the trick is that the hive guard are d3, so you don't really save a whole lot there. You don't get cover and your all is dust doesn't turn on against them.
Depending on your cult, I would forward deploy a unit and try to charge the hobe guard if possible. Cult of magic is also great against nids with a giant blob.
GW just released a "Balance Slate" (available at https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/WVNIlSN1XFw6Zfwo.pdf). It looks like it's meant to buff some armies (like CSM and Necrons) and rein in AdMech and Drukhari by adjusting points (and Ork buggy lists also). Aside from the incidental benefits of weaker AdMech, Orks, and Drukhari, it doesn't look like there's anything in here directly affecting TSons. World Eater Berzerkers are going to love the "corrected" DttFE rule, though (as if they needed to be even more of a blender on the table).
Brian888 wrote: GW just released a "Balance Slate" (available at https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/WVNIlSN1XFw6Zfwo.pdf). It looks like it's meant to buff some armies (like CSM and Necrons) and rein in AdMech and Drukhari by adjusting points (and Ork buggy lists also). Aside from the incidental benefits of weaker AdMech, Orks, and Drukhari, it doesn't look like there's anything in here directly affecting TSons. World Eater Berzerkers are going to love the "corrected" DttFE rule, though (as if they needed to be even more of a blender on the table).
CSM need all the help it can get. Though I suspect in this case, it was only a change to DttFE because that rule was probably going away in the new CSM codex. And stuff like points and stats they didn't bother changing because it was all going to be changed when the 9th ed CSM codex drops anyway.
I find grind them down works pretty well in smaller game. Especially if you run cult of time. On incursions we typically have less objectives to work with, so I prefer Psychic ritual compared to Mutate Landscape. If you want to Castle up, Banners is also nice since we are pretty hard to move at range. If you want to go the other way, engage can be pretty easy if you deepstrike your Rubric with flamer or your SOT. Wrath of Magnus can be great against the right comp but in smaller game I prefer to use Ahriman as a buffer.
Speaking of ... would you happen to have a pick of your metal Ahriman Never seen one !
In any case, have good games !
I do like Cult of Time quite a bit so Grind them Down would be a good choice, Wrath of Magnus is also quite fun. I generally use Ahriman as a character sniper with Tzeentch Firestorm & Gaze of Hate. I've got my models packed up currently but he was in the last game I played, although it's not a good angle, he's on the right side for both photos leading some Rubrics.
Eldenfirefly wrote:
But wrath of magnus is risky in its own way too. He can use big monsters to screen in front (and he has smites too). And with two hive guard units shooting, I don't know how much of an army I will have left by turn 5. And turn 1 he can hide out of range + out of line of sight.
He will probably keep his hiveguard well back and surround them with lots of nasties. Getting to his hiveguard is going to be a challenge. I may have to tank the shots for the first few turns at least. The good thing is all of my rubrics are 5 man, so that Phalanx strategem to -1 damage just cost 1 cp. And my hellbrutes are default -1 damage anyway. And everything is 5++.
You got to force the tyranid player to focus on the terminators. Use the crystal to teleport the terminators forward(at a flank) and make sure the get -1 to hit (glamour of tzeentch) and 1-damage. The other units move forward at the other side of the battle field. Make sure the terminators can only be charged by either the swarmlord or the genestealers but not both. Full Hive gaurd shooting kills about 3 terminators and assault could kill another two. Next turn revive two terminator models and give them +1 to wound in close combat. Weaken the tyranid unit with some mortal wounds. and finish them off.
The key is to get a lot of mission points as fast as possible so that it doesn't matter if you start losing a lot of models because you win the mission anyway.
dreadlybrew wrote:Correct. But the trick is that the hive guard are d3, so you don't really save a whole lot there. You don't get cover and your all is dust doesn't turn on against them.
Depending on your cult, I would forward deploy a unit and try to charge the hobe guard if possible. Cult of magic is also great against nids with a giant blob.
If the player is smart you will never reach the hive gaurd. So don't bother I would say.
whembly wrote: What are your thoughts on the Terrax-Termites?
A 14W T8 3+ 5++ distraction carnifex seems pretty spicy!
What loadouts do you prefer? I think I'm digging the 2x heavy flamers as the range aligns with the 5 melta shots.
If you can fit a pair of them, seems like a great way to get Engage and maybe an auto delivery to get your rubrics for the Burn secondary.
Wait, Forge World gets 5++ ? Did they errata them to have the Arcana Astartes keyword ?
Yes, even the FW daemon engines get Arcana Astartes/Bubonic Astartes.
Many Chaos Space Marine units described in this section can be
fielded in Death Guard and Thousand Sons armies even though
you cannot normally replace the <Legion> keyword with either
Death Guard or Thousand Sons.
You can choose for any <Legion> Nurgle unit from the Imperial
Armour Compendium to be from the Death Guard Legion. If you do:
• Replace that unit’s <Legion> keyword with Death Guard.
• That unit gains the Bubonic Astartes keyword.
• That unit can be from one of the seven Plague Companies,
and so also gains the <Plague Company> keyword.
You can choose for any <Legion> Tzeentch unit from the
Imperial Armour Compendium to be from the Thousand Sons
Legion. If you do:
• Replace that unit’s <Legion> keyword with Thousand Sons.
• That unit gains the Arcana Astartes keyword.
• That unit can be from one of the nine Great Cults, and so also
gains the <Great Cult> keyword.
whembly wrote: What are your thoughts on the Terrax-Termites?
A 14W T8 3+ 5++ distraction carnifex seems pretty spicy!
What loadouts do you prefer? I think I'm digging the 2x heavy flamers as the range aligns with the 5 melta shots.
If you can fit a pair of them, seems like a great way to get Engage and maybe an auto delivery to get your rubrics for the Burn secondary.
Wait, Forge World gets 5++ ? Did they errata them to have the Arcana Astartes keyword ?
Yes, even the FW daemon engines get Arcana Astartes/Bubonic Astartes.
Many Chaos Space Marine units described in this section can be
fielded in Death Guard and Thousand Sons armies even though
you cannot normally replace the <Legion> keyword with either
Death Guard or Thousand Sons.
You can choose for any <Legion> Nurgle unit from the Imperial
Armour Compendium to be from the Death Guard Legion. If you do:
• Replace that unit’s <Legion> keyword with Death Guard.
• That unit gains the Bubonic Astartes keyword.
• That unit can be from one of the seven Plague Companies,
and so also gains the <Plague Company> keyword.
You can choose for any <Legion> Tzeentch unit from the
Imperial Armour Compendium to be from the Thousand Sons
Legion. If you do:
• Replace that unit’s <Legion> keyword with Thousand Sons.
• That unit gains the Arcana Astartes keyword.
• That unit can be from one of the nine Great Cults, and so also
gains the <Great Cult> keyword.
New 1kSons player here, and I was wondering if anyone thinks a Dreadclaw Assault Pod might be a good investment? Any unexpected or fun synergies, or tricks for competitive play?
I wanted to order something FW to round out my new collection, but don't want to just be on the VolCon bandwagon.
As just mentioned, the Dreadclaw and the Kharbydis both get the 5++.
Unlike Rhinos they are able to transport Tzaangors (and Scarab Occult).
The Warpflame Gargoyles strat works best on a melee capable vehicle with as big a base as possible. The Biomechanical Mutation strat might also see use on them.
Had a 3 round tournament this past weekend where I took a 10 man Scarab unit and also the "slippery Exalted" which was the special disc, Tutorum, Aetherstride, and the Prophecy trait. So he could basically zip 30", charge, consolidate away 6", and then flee 6" when charged.
In retrospect I paid too much to get the Prophecy trait. 10 man Scarabs take sooo much CP to keep alive and I was really too starved to do much else even with an Infernal Master doing the action for a second CP every turn.
The Exalted himself wasn't very useful. I wound up playing opponents that had no weak points ( Custodes ) or had plenty of no LOS shooting ( DG & Orks ) so there was no way to push him up to screw with their back field.
The tournament itself was very hobby oriented so they awarded more than 10 points based on if you had a display board, conversions, etc.
Game 1 - DG
He went first and pummeled some Rubrics and my Rhino, but not much else. On my turn I failed my +1S with the IF and because I was so CP starved I opted not to get it to pass automatically. This was a mistake as I jumped the Scarabs near a contemptor and PBC. I could have shot the PBC, but I knew without the +1S my odds were slim even with +1 to wound. I opted to take out the contemptor and barely did so. This proved to be really painful as those PBCs would continue to rain misery and having one crippled or dead would have helped tremendously ( especially since my Vindicators scored 12 wounds on a separate PBC ).
We only got to round 3 and timed out due to indecisiveness on both sides. I scored 47 and he scored 45, but....he had more hobby points so it become a loss of 49 to 50. Bummer. I had a strong position and could have pulled in a strong win had we went to turn 5, I think.
Game 2 - Custodes
I went first and basically pinned him in with terminators the first turn and tried to work the rest of my army up ( hammerhead deploy ). He was pretty ineffective on his turn, but I wasn't fast or lucky enough to down any Telemons before his turn 2 when the Venetari dropped and he went ape on my Scarabs nearly wiping them out. By this point I had covered the objectives really well, but it came to a nail biting win of 76 to 72. Secondaries against Custodes are really tough.
Came out with a win of 76 to 72.
Game 3 - Freebootas
Two Wazboms - lots of buggies - handful of bikers.
I went first and that's basically where I lost. I neglected to target the Wazboms with my Scarabs who jumped up. For some reason I was more concerned about Scraps and Warbikes, because I totally forgot that Tellyportas are D3+3...and get 2D6 of those...and hit on 3s when Freebootas activate...and my opponent rolls 10+ shots...twice...
I got smoked and lost 95 to 39.
Conclusions :
- Scrolls really let me down - it triggered only once in all three games ( bad luck, I guess ).
- No more gimmick Exalted.
- 10 Scarabs require tons of CP AND an Infernal Master so I need to make sure I start with at least 9 or 10 so I have room to do other things.
- I really want a strong melee character ( DP ), but with Ahriman, Exalted, and IM I am full so if I still do two patrols I need to go super light on relics/traits. Though with a double Patrol and Crystal I am already at 9 and if I want a decent DP I'll likely hit 7 again. Ugg.
- Shaman might be a good option to pick up the extra CP or do psychic secondaries against armies like Custodes.
whembly wrote: @Daedalus81: Thoughts on the vindies having 2 or 3 in list? (I have 3 and really think they have a place, but haven't played them yet)
I agree with Scarab... if you're not willing to commit to spending 6-9 CPs per game on that one unit, I wouldn't bring them.
I have three as well. My Vindicator slaps every game - if it isn't killing hard it takes tons of heat. I have a support Rubric squad that puts Guidance on it for extra reach. I run a Plasma/Cannon FF as well so switching him out for another Vindicator would be doable. The only reason I don't is that I want to maintain a distinct set of tools for various units that might pop up.
whembly wrote: @Daedalus81: Thoughts on the vindies having 2 or 3 in list? (I have 3 and really think they have a place, but haven't played them yet)
I agree with Scarab... if you're not willing to commit to spending 6-9 CPs per game on that one unit, I wouldn't bring them.
Vindies might be tough but the damage output is too random. I would rather have two volkite + missle launcher contemptors. Deploy each contemptor at a flank/objective and keep a unit rubric marines close by so that you can always use the ' inescapable forewarning' stratagem. They're also core and benefit from the reroll 1 aura.
@Daedalus81: when I read your battle report it feels like you played very aggressive.
I would push the terminators forward with temporal surge and cast glamour (-1 to hit), weaver (4++), and presage (+1 to hit), and shoot the crap out of anything within 24 inch. You use the unwavering phalanx (-1 damage) next turn and if the enemy kills a few terminators then you could use the crystal to deploy them close and revive 1 or 2 terminator models (cult of time and stratagem) and deploy them closer to the enemy unit you want to charge. Also if the enemy got an aggressive unit that wants to lock the terminator unit in close combat then you can use the crystal to pull them out of close combat..
But if you can afford to keep the terminators at 24 inch shooting range then I would do that. You can simply use the first two turns to soften up the enemies army and start controlling the field/objectives at turn 3.
Yea I always kept the Scarabs at 24" or as best as I could. I really don't like them in melee at all. I had +1S and +1 to hit on and occasionally 4++.
Typically I'm conservative the first turn or two, but my opponents had a lot of heavy firepower and I had to take advantage of bad movement where I could. It worked out fine in every game except against Orks, because of the Wazboms.
Daedalus81 wrote: Yea I always kept the Scarabs at 24" or as best as I could. I really don't like them in melee at all. I had +1S and +1 to hit on and occasionally 4++.
Typically I'm conservative the first turn or two, but my opponents had a lot of heavy firepower and I had to take advantage of bad movement where I could. It worked out fine in every game except against Orks, because of the Wazboms.
Yep, you need to identify the weapons that are going to hurt the most. Not a lot of weapons and/or attacks that can do 4+ damage with each attack but orks can really do a number on you when they're lucky. That's why it can be useful to bring a vindicator or contemptor dreadnought so that the enemy is going to divide his shots because he thinks the high damage shots are more useful against vehicles. Shooting a bunch of dark lances and only killing two terminators that revive the next turn feels very counterproductive.
If you really want to take that daemon prince than I would go for a battalion.
HQ: Ahriman on disc (doombolt, tzeentch's firestorm, temporal surge (or sum thing else)
HQ: Daemon Prince: (Weaver of fates, Glamour of tzeentch) WL: aetherstride + Relic: the cronus tutorum (WL: Immaterial echo)
HQ: Infernal master: (Presage) Relic: umbralific crystal
The daemon prince is not a bad pick because it is a nice counterattack unit.
Why do you pick 2x patrol anyway? You can also pick a free sorcerer with that exalted sorcerer in a batallion. Seems like a waste of CP and thousand sons really need the CP's.
Ordana wrote: The only reason to play 2 patrols is to pick 2 different cults. Which I feel is indeed a trap and waste of CP.
Yes, Cult of duplicity is great, but every game I play with it, I end up teleporting a unit mid field that could also reach this distance with temporal surge and/or regular movement. Most times it's not wise to go in so aggressive and I rather soft up the enemy ranks for two turns before I move in. Cult of duplicity can be great for flexible board control and move in a unit at a flank or in the backfield where the deep striking enemy units drop. But for now I go full cult of time terminators.
Ordana wrote: The only reason to play 2 patrols is to pick 2 different cults. Which I feel is indeed a trap and waste of CP.
Yes, Cult of time is great, but every game I play with it, I end up teleporting a unit mid field that could also reach this distance with temporal surge and/or regular movement. Most times it's not wise to go in so aggressive and I rather soft up the enemy ranks for two turns before I move in. Cult of time can be great for flexible board control and move in a unit at a flank or in the backfield where the deep striking enemy units drop. But for now I go full cult of time terminators.
Err, you mean Cult of Duplicity. Time is the time flux resurrect cult. lol
Ordana wrote: The only reason to play 2 patrols is to pick 2 different cults. Which I feel is indeed a trap and waste of CP.
Yes, Cult of time is great, but every game I play with it, I end up teleporting a unit mid field that could also reach this distance with temporal surge and/or regular movement. Most times it's not wise to go in so aggressive and I rather soft up the enemy ranks for two turns before I move in. Cult of time can be great for flexible board control and move in a unit at a flank or in the backfield where the deep striking enemy units drop. But for now I go full cult of time terminators.
Err, you mean Cult of Duplicity. Time is the time flux resurrect cult. lol
Cult of duplicity feels better as it give option not only to move somewhere, it also allows to get out of combat or lost objectives while resurrecting one model in such situations might not help at all. Enemy have to consider possibility of one enemy unit jumping "somewhere" (and charge on new objective) while against cult of time "ok, maybe it will take longer to kill his termies".
Xyxel wrote: Cult of duplicity feels better as it give option not only to move somewhere, it also allows to get out of combat or lost objectives while resurrecting one model in such situations might not help at all. Enemy has to consider possibility of one enemy unit jumping "somewhere" (and charge on new objective) while against cult of time "ok, maybe it will take longer to kill his termies".
A valid reason for using cult of duplicity but in practice I don't tend to jump the first turn because then they're just sitting ducks then or a great way for the enemy to move faster by charging this lonely unit. When I get in close combat with an enemy unit and I want to jump out then most times I'am just moving away or back and not that much closer towards an enemy objective. Staying 9 inch away from enemy units most times means i got to drop mid field or even close to my own deployment zone. Also dropping outside 9 inch is not an assault guaranty.
I rather push the terminators mid field with always the possibility to use the crystal to pull them out of close combat or towards the enemy lines. Reviving two terminators and placing them closer to the enemy unit after the drop really increase the charge range. If something assaults them fast I first check if I could remove it with witchfire powers so that the use temporal surge and can shoot afterwards. Terminators that can heal two models each turn are a headache and something that the enemy cannot ignore.
Daedalus81 wrote: Yea I always kept the Scarabs at 24" or as best as I could. I really don't like them in melee at all. I had +1S and +1 to hit on and occasionally 4++.
Typically I'm conservative the first turn or two, but my opponents had a lot of heavy firepower and I had to take advantage of bad movement where I could. It worked out fine in every game except against Orks, because of the Wazboms.
Yep, you need to identify the weapons that are going to hurt the most. Not a lot of weapons and/or attacks that can do 4+ damage with each attack but orks can really do a number on you when they're lucky. That's why it can be useful to bring a vindicator or contemptor dreadnought so that the enemy is going to divide his shots because he thinks the high damage shots are more useful against vehicles. Shooting a bunch of dark lances and only killing two terminators that revive the next turn feels very counterproductive.
If you really want to take that daemon prince than I would go for a battalion.
HQ: Ahriman on disc (doombolt, tzeentch's firestorm, temporal surge (or sum thing else)
HQ: Daemon Prince: (Weaver of fates, Glamour of tzeentch) WL: aetherstride + Relic: the cronus tutorum (WL: Immaterial echo)
HQ: Infernal master: (Presage) Relic: umbralific crystal
The daemon prince is not a bad pick because it is a nice counterattack unit.
Why do you pick 2x patrol anyway? You can also pick a free sorcerer with that exalted sorcerer in a batallion. Seems like a waste of CP and thousand sons really need the CP's.
Yea I am enamored with the idea of other cults, but 10 Scarabs obviously firmly anchors you to Time. Perhaps I'll explore something like Tzaangor Mutation or Tzaangor/Mutalith Duplicity lists in the future.
My struggle is that I love Ahriman, but I also love the Rehati, Scrolls, Echo Exalted. Though recently Scrolls have really failed me. I often take both Ahriman and the Exalted, which leaves me a conundrum to fit the DP. So either I forgo the DP or I drop Ahriman or Exalted to keep the IM in.
I don't feel like Echo is a great trait for the DP as it will proc so rarely. Also, in my experience going over the top with defensive buffs can be detrimental. Sometimes you just need to lay something flat with mortal wounds ASAP.
Automatically Appended Next Post: A thought experiment with Ahriman and the Rehati, Scrolls, Echo Exalted. Feel free to gut check my math if you have the time and tools.
SMITE
The standard odds to go super saiyan on Smite is 1 in 12. With the innate +1 this becomes 1 in 6.
Ahriman's reroll ( reroll everything 8 or less ) puts this at slightly over 10 in 36 ( 28% ). If you commit cabal to +1 on that cast your odds become 17 in 36 ( 47% ). This makes the average MW on Smite go from 1.9 to 2.6.
The Scrolls Exalted --
113 in 216 when using the +1 Cabal ( 52% ) meaning nearly 2.8 MW on average.
FIRESTORM
Ahriman --
10 in 36 ( 28% ) for an average of 2 MW
Exalted --
113 in 216 ( 52% ) for an average of 2.3 MW
ALL TOGETHER
Obviously the Exalted can't scroll both spells so here's the full outcome:
Ahriman
Smite @ 2.6, FS @ 2, Doombolt @ 2.9 = 7.5
Exalted
Smite @ 2.8, FS @ 1.7, Doombolt @ 2.5 = 7 and if Echo procs you get 1.4 additional from Gaze
CONCLUSION
8.4 vs 7.5
Ahriman is slightly worse for +30 points, but is more reliable and spares you 1 CP to swap a spell out on top of not using the free relic and trait to accomplish that goal.
That actually seems quite well balanced for choice, which is horribly frustrating.
BONUS ROUND
A Witch Warrior Sorcerer casting Smite WITHOUT +1 Cabal scores 2.6 and can kick off Doombolt ( 8 CP ) for another 2.5 plus another spell.
So for 255 points you get 13.5 MW or ~19 points per MW where Ahriman is 24 points per MW. Technically the extra Doombolt is possible with Ahriman, too, so the former would be 22 points per MW.
It all gets very complicated based on how you fill slots and if you expand into that fourth selection with the Exalted.
Yea I am enamored with the idea of other cults, but 10 Scarabs obviously firmly anchors you to Time. Perhaps I'll explore something like Tzaangor Mutation or Tzaangor/Mutalith Duplicity lists in the future.
My struggle is that I love Ahriman, but I also love the Rehati, Scrolls, Echo Exalted. Though recently Scrolls have really failed me. I often take both Ahriman and the Exalted, which leaves me a conundrum to fit the DP. So either I forgo the DP or I drop Ahriman or Exalted to keep the IM in.
I don't feel like Echo is a great trait for the DP as it will proc so rarely. Also, in my experience going over the top with defensive buffs can be detrimental. Sometimes you just need to lay something flat with mortal wounds ASAP.
Immaterial echo really works for me because most times I need the 4++ and -1 to hit on my terminators. The 9+ on the psychic test is not unmodified so I could upgrade the psychic test with cabalistic ritual points to make sure the first psychic power (weaver) gets a high result / 9+ and after that I could use the immaterial echo effect to make sure the -1 to hit (the glamour) doesn't get denied. My buddy play's grey knights and they're doing well in tournaments so I got to anticipate this.
I could also do this with the time flux power if needed. The daemon prince could also switch the time flux for another power if I need more witchfire powers. But with ahriman already using doombolt and tzeentch firestorm I don't need another witchfire/mortal wound character. I can always switch a power with 'gaze of hate' and/or maybe 'baleful devolution' (very situational) and then I'am at the top of the amount of witchfire powers besides 'smite' . If I need to 'drop' an enemy unit I use the 'malefic scroll' stratagem and/or the cabalistic ritual mortal wound options (malevolent charge or psychic maelstrom).
I played a few games and I end up locked in close combat with the terminators on numerous occasions and really liked the daemon prince for helping out. I need to dominate the midfield and the opponent knows that it is sometimes better to lock the terminators in close combat to prevent them from shooting. a heroic intervening damon prince with flat 3D sword can really hurt.
My experience so far... with a few games using Immaterium echo warlord trait.. Most of the time it doesn't come up. And the few times it does, I likely forgot it was there and didn't trigger it. And the one time I remembered that my warlord had it, and triggered it... it didn't change anything... lol.
I don't know if its just because I am just so bad at being conscious of it.
I still think the healing isn't better than the fall back and shoot and charge/releport redeploy.
It always looks like the right move. But if you are bringing those dudes back you are wasting so much effort on keeping 2 at best terminators coming back. You have to be so cagey with them to make it work.
I'm a big fan of the exalted sorc deep strike nuker and the yo yo demon prince with a prism of echos sorc. Both of which are pretty dope.
I think it depends on playstyle. So far, the lists I build (based on the models I do have), and my playstyle seems to make me more suited to cult of duplicity. I think time is great, but I just don't get the best milege out of time personally, probably because of my playstyle.
I love the option of throwing my opponent off by using the cult of duplicity spell to yeet a throwaway min squad of rubrics into a wierd place, do a whole bunch of mortal wounds and damage, and then just force them to react to an obsec squad of rubrics being in an awkward place.
And if they did such an amazing job of screening out their entire army for the entire game... well, then even the threat of me doing this forced them to do such perfect screening the whole game. And that would have achieved its purpose too.
Cult of time basically means good players have a tendency to just ignore your one terminator block. Maybe Cult of time would be good with a double Terminator block play. because it might be impossible to ignore two 10 man occult squads on the table. But one Occult squad with cult of time? A good player can just choose to either ignore that unit, or wait till it has over exposed itself and/or then throw his entire army into it and kill it in one round (if possible).
A 10 man Occult squad costs over 400 points but it can only be in one place at one time. So, good players can play around it if they deem it to be too much trouble to kill.
Maybe I need more practise with cult of time. I started with duplicity. Then I switched over to cult of time, and up till now, have had mixed results from Time. I need more games with cult of time to get a handle on it. But a good opponent can basically treat cult of time army like Necrons. "Just focus on one unit at a time and make sure you kill it."
Quick one for you Arcanists; I'm running a Cult of Duplicity list and want to take the Perfidious Tome. I also make use of the Echos From the Warp ritual. Am I limited to only gaining one CP? Is this one CP in addition to the one I gain at the start of my turn? Are the aforementioned relic and ritual completely different from the Assassins strat that allows them to gain additional CP for killing a character?
Eldenfirefly wrote:My experience so far... with a few games using Immaterium echo warlord trait.. Most of the time it doesn't come up. And the few times it does, I likely forgot it was there and didn't trigger it. And the one time I remembered that my warlord had it, and triggered it... it didn't change anything... lol.
I don't know if its just because I am just so bad at being conscious of it.
With my terminators being the key unit I always first cast with my daemon prince all the protective spells and see what I need to make them work (rerolls, cabalistic ritual upgrades). So I never forget the echo and it almost always works. Rolling for glamour or weaver almost always results in at least one 7 + 1 for thousand sons bonus psychic test and add another 1 with cabalistic ritual and I got 9.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I love the option of throwing my opponent off by using the cult of duplicity spell to yeet a throwaway min squad of rubrics into a wierd place, do a whole bunch of mortal wounds and damage, and then just force them to react to an obsec squad of rubrics being in an awkward place.
If I really needed a rubric marine squad somewhere I use the risen rubricae to deploy them in the field. Yes It all depends on your playstyle but in my experience I don't need to drop in more rubric marines when I got my terminators on the objectives mid field and I got my own objectives in the backfield.
Eldenfirefly wrote:
Cult of time basically means good players have a tendency to just ignore your one terminator block. Maybe Cult of time would be good with a double Terminator block play. because it might be impossible to ignore two 10 man occult squads on the table. But one Occult squad with cult of time? A good player can just choose to either ignore that unit, or wait till it has over exposed itself and/or then throw his entire army into it and kill it in one round (if possible).
Yep, thats the biggest weakness of the terminator block. Actually it's an combination of the two factors. Taking down 3+ terminators each round means my big squad starting to get weaker and at round 3+ the don't bring a enough pain to take down enemy units that push tru a flank at the other side of the battle field. But the shooting power with the +1 to wound stratagem in combination with temperal surge, it is very hard to ignore this unit. I can also fly the characters to the other flank close to a rubric squad and start throwing mortal wounds around. I tend to lose if I play the terminators to agressive and the enemy can tie them up and start claiming objectives.
But enemy players that go for the objectives and try to remove rubric marines in the backfield always end up cursing because the are so damn tough.
Yeah. It then boils down to, can he either ignore, or handle your big block of 10 occults if you were too aggressive with them. Lets say you keep them on a home objective, so its just shooting he has to worry about. And Occults have a 24 inch range (extendable to 30).
Its painful, but he can still use line of sight obscuring terrain around it.
If you are playing something like a 5 objective map and throw that 10 occults onto the center objective. Then it becomes all or nothing. Because then you can't hide them behind obscuring, and he will be able to bring almost his entire army to bear onto your occult squad. It then becomes "can he kill your Occult squad or he fails and you keep on bring back Occults and he autoloses at that point".
Some armies can't handle 10 Occults on a center objective. But some armies can. Like if they can bring their entire (or most) of their army shooting plus charging to bear on your Occults, they can kill it in one turn.
I still like the 10 man terminator bloc though. I just don't know if cult of time is the best for my playstlye because cult of time seems to double down on the 10 man terminator bloc.
Which is why in the interview with the successful TS player he talks about being very aggressive with yeeting his Rubric squads across the table with Warp Surge.
Because now there is an immediate threat that draws attention away from your terminators. You have a buffed terminators unit around the middle of the field holding an objective but there are 10 obsec marines on the enemies home objective demanding attention.
You need to make your opponent pay if they focus your terminators. Doing so so should cripple their primary score so that if you lose the terminators you have a lead in points that you can hold on to to eek out a win despite losing most, or all of your army.
In that vein, we can always get both Duplicity and Time by taking another detachment- is it worth, say, dropping 2CP on an Aux Support Detachment of just a big block of Cult of Time Scarab Occult Terminators, to give them Time Flux's critical resurrection punch? Losing out on Sorcerous Facade does cut into their mobility, but if they're just going to hang out in the middle and be a combination firebase and brick they hardly need it.
Plus they can always take Temporal Surge as their integrated Sorcerer's power as a speed boost (probably a good idea whatever happens), and/or receive a Sorcerous Facade from a nearby Cult of Duplicity caster if they really need to be someplace far away immediately.
I guess the big question is 'how much do we really need those 2CP?' Because from what I've heard, the answer is "a lot".
RedX wrote: In that vein, we can always get both Duplicity and Time by taking another detachment- is it worth, say, dropping 2CP on an Aux Support Detachment of just a big block of Cult of Time Scarab Occult Terminators, to give them Time Flux's critical resurrection punch? Losing out on Sorcerous Facade does cut into their mobility, but if they're just going to hang out in the middle and be a combination firebase and brick they hardly need it.
Plus they can always take Temporal Surge as their integrated Sorcerer's power as a speed boost (probably a good idea whatever happens), and/or receive a Sorcerous Facade from a nearby Cult of Duplicity caster if they really need to be someplace far away immediately.
Sorcerous facade is not really needed for the terminators. You can still use the crystal to drop them in aggressively or pull them out of close combat. Sometimes I get to eager to use it and pay the cost for that. I really got to be patient and play for the win at turn 4 and 5.
But Sorcerous facade is great for rubric units, not denying that. But the enemy armies that are difficult to handle are also really aggressive and/or got great board control (Ad mech, ork buggies, grey knight, Drukhari). Most times I end up teleporting mid-field 9 inch away from enemy units. In my opinion it is really useful at turn 3+ when things die and you got some room to take the secondary objectives last turns or help out at a flank.
I rather take one rhino to move two rubric units forward to put pressure towards an enemy objective.
RedX wrote: I guess the big question is 'how much do we really need those 2CP?' Because from what I've heard, the answer is "a lot".
Yea thats right. I invest a lot in the -1 damage (3cp) and the +1 to wound (2cp) for my terminators but that means I don't got a lot of cp left at turn 4. I really like to field contemptors but that -1CP really hurts so I only take one.
So, interrogate is now without LOS ! Time for me to try out the dip-and-dive prophecy Exalted Sorcerer once again
I feel like its still possible for good players to play around Interrogate. They can keep their characters well back for turn 1 or 2. Only come forward turn 3. For those lists that have just 2 characters. Just keep them well back near their table edge for all 5 turns. Maybe I don't get to use those two characters much the whole game, but if I can let you get a zero on your secondary. Its a worth while trade.
Also, mutate landscape will be better for many of the missions and its also in warpcraft.
The new interrogate seems better for Soup Tsons lists, or other psyker lists. Its not bad for Tsons but I think mutate landscape will be better in most of the situations.
So, interrogate is now without LOS ! Time for me to try out the dip-and-dive prophecy Exalted Sorcerer once again
I feel like its still possible for good players to play around Interrogate. They can keep their characters well back for turn 1 or 2. Only come forward turn 3. For those lists that have just 2 characters. Just keep them well back near their table edge for all 5 turns. Maybe I don't get to use those two characters much the whole game, but if I can let you get a zero on your secondary. Its a worth while trade.
Also, mutate landscape will be better for many of the missions and its also in warpcraft.
The new interrogate seems better for Soup Tsons lists, or other psyker lists. Its not bad for Tsons but I think mutate landscape will be better in most of the situations.
Mutate is really hard on some missions. When they have no psyker and it is 4 or 5 objectives it gets hard. Mutate is going to get your 9 or 12 when interrogate can get you similar or better even if they opt to stall their plan to gut you of 3 points, but that feels more win-win than anything.
Daedalus81 wrote: My struggle is that I love Ahriman, but I also love the Rehati, Scrolls, Echo Exalted. Though recently Scrolls have really failed me. I often take both Ahriman and the Exalted, which leaves me a conundrum to fit the DP. So either I forgo the DP or I drop Ahriman or Exalted to keep the IM in.
The new rules really do not support the DP very well, or at least, they don't make much of a case for its inclusion in my opinion. I just don't see the point in spending the extra points over an Exalted for the DP, it just isn't bringing that much more to the table. I guess if you've got some kind of heavy hand-to-hand plan for your TS list then it's probably worth it, but I feel like that list concept is sitting out on the fringes of the TS tactical paradigm.
Daedalus81 wrote: I don't feel like Echo is a great trait for the DP as it will proc so rarely. Also, in my experience going over the top with defensive buffs can be detrimental. Sometimes you just need to lay something flat with mortal wounds ASAP.
Agreed, but I generally don't like any of the proc-reliant traits and options unless multiple mechanics can be layered on to support the mechanic.
Of course, I'm still running Magnus regularly because I like my list to be pretty, so obviously I'm not optimizing to some mythical tournament standard.
The new rules really do not support the DP very well, or at least, they don't make much of a case for its inclusion in my opinion. I just don't see the point in spending the extra points over an Exalted for the DP, it just isn't bringing that much more to the table. I guess if you've got some kind of heavy hand-to-hand plan for your TS list then it's probably worth it, but I feel like that list concept is sitting out on the fringes of the TS tactical paradigm.
Well a lot of times I end up fighting in close combat with my terminators and I really like the backup from the sword wielding daemon prince. More wounds, higher toughness and D3 in close combat can really help. With eatherslide WLT instead of wings it is not a lot of points extra compared to a full kitted out exalted.
A smart opponent knows that most mortal wound powers are against the closest enemy unit, and that's why you cannot rely to much on them. You need shooting and/or counter close combat.
shogun wrote: Well a lot of times I end up fighting in close combat with my terminators and I really like the backup from the sword wielding daemon prince. More wounds, higher toughness and D3 in close combat can really help. With eatherslide WLT instead of wings it is not a lot of points extra compared to a full kitted out exalted.
I think people underestimate Exalted hand to hand potential, even Ahriman has enough beatdown to support SoTs in melee. With the changes to Malefic Talons, the DP is only adding a single attack above an Exalted, the extra toughness and wounds is nice, but if someone wants it dead, I don't think it's making a huge difference. Everyone's mileage will vary of course, and I like running the Exalted for different reasons.
Well, like one of the posters above said. Close combat isn't really Tsons strong suit. So, either we skew the other way and just focus on what we are good at, or we try and bring stuff like DP to get a more balanced list. I personally think there is play for both, but I am trying to bring mainly exalted sorcerors and trying to live without the close combat that the DP offers.
I think if the DP is the most scary and only combat threat in our list, its very easy for the opponent to just prioritise their attacks on the DP. In which case it will still die if a dedicated combat unit goes into it.
I feel that if its close combat, a unit of 5 spawn is much cheaper and will achieve more. More wounds, much higher number of attacks, can be temporal surged for a 14 inch potential move and has that 1 CP strat to make one unit really do stuff.
A unit of 5 Spawn charging onto an objective and killing 5 space marines is very possible with that 1 CP strat. A DP in the same situation needs to roll all hits and wounds and needs the space marine squad to fail most or all of them. Not good odds really. Once you factor in transhuman. The spawn unit can choose to reroll wounds with the strat to get around that and still have a very good chance of killing the squad. The DP... will probably be lucky if it kills half the squad once it transhuman.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Well, like one of the posters above said. Close combat isn't really Tsons strong suit. So, either we skew the other way and just focus on what we are good at, or we try and bring stuff like DP to get a more balanced list. I personally think there is play for both, but I am trying to bring mainly exalted sorcerors and trying to live without the close combat that the DP offers.
We were talking about a daemon prince in combination with 10 terminator, ahriman and infernal master. I used my daemon prince to get the protective spells going for my terminators. You could use an rehati exalted for 150 points but a daemon prince with aetherslide and sword is also 150 points. With cult of time I like the immaterial echo warlord trait and actually gives me a free power to cast that cannot be denied. I think if I would go 'cult of diplicity' I rather pick an exalted because then the athenaean scrolls are really nice to have. Also not possible to cast temporal surge on the daemon prince but if I need to do this I rather pick ahriman.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I think if the DP is the most scary and only combat threat in our list, its very easy for the opponent to just prioritise their attacks on the DP. In which case it will still die if a dedicated combat unit goes into it.
No the terminators are the scary unit and the daemon prince is the backup and cannot be picked out with shooting. If the can reach my daemon prince i got bigger problems because then I lost a big chunk of terminators. But even then I rather have them charging a 9 wound toughness 6 model compared to a weaker exalted. I also think that a force staff with -1AP and d3 damage is not the same as a hellforged sword.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I feel that if its close combat, a unit of 5 spawn is much cheaper and will achieve more. More wounds, much higher number of attacks, can be temporal surged for a 14 inch potential move and has that 1 CP strat to make one unit really do stuff.
A unit of 5 Spawn charging onto an objective and killing 5 space marines is very possible with that 1 CP strat. A DP in the same situation needs to roll all hits and wounds and needs the space marine squad to fail most or all of them. Not good odds really. Once you factor in transhuman. The spawn unit can choose to reroll wounds with the strat to get around that and still have a very good chance of killing the squad. The DP... will probably be lucky if it kills half the squad once it transhuman.
Let's face it, you don't use the daemon prince as a big close combat unit. I like the D3 sword but it only got 5 attacks and no reroll 1 aura (not core). I simply like the close combat support option that could help out with my terminators. We are simply comparing the exalted wiht the daemon prince. My daemon prince once fought 3 rounds with a dreadknight and finally killing it in round 4 with only 2 wounds left. Something an exalted could not have done.
I even might give the daemon prince wings because then it exceeds in points compared to my contemptor and It would count for 'to the last' secondary mission. The enemy needs to kill the terminators, arhiman and daemon prince to deny me my points. Now the often kill my contemptor because shooting lascannons at the terminators is such a waste.
CA2022 appears to be doing away with secondaries, so that may not be a legit concern anymore.
At the end of the day, it's a matter of taste to a certain extent, I just don't feel like the DP is bringing enough to the table to justify using it over the Exalted in most situations. If I end up running some kind of Tzaangor-centric list that's going to go hard on melee? Sure, I'll probably find a spot for him, but as it stands, I'd rather have a disc Exalted who can actually use Temporal Surge when I need it.
TwinPoleTheory wrote: CA2022 appears to be doing away with secondaries, so that may not be a legit concern anymore.
At the end of the day, it's a matter of taste to a certain extent, I just don't feel like the DP is bringing enough to the table to justify using it over the Exalted in most situations. If I end up running some kind of Tzaangor-centric list that's going to go hard on melee? Sure, I'll probably find a spot for him, but as it stands, I'd rather have a disc Exalted who can actually use Temporal Surge when I need it.
Where are you getting secondaries going away? That's the exact opposite of what has been shown.
Perhaps not disappearing entirely, but changing significantly enough that counting on existing secondary mechanics is probably not a great idea.
Typical gak reporting from a junky source. Goonhammer's actual article that they allude to had details on the updates to most secondaries. They're 90% the same, with a few getting tweaks to encourage diversity. The fundamental system isn't going anywhere.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Typical gak reporting from a junky source. Goonhammer's actual article that they allude to had details on the updates to most secondaries. They're 90% the same, with a few getting tweaks to encourage diversity. The fundamental system isn't going anywhere.
Then by all means continue with the slavish devotion to the DP paradigm.
I literally haven't said a thing about DP, I just wanted to make sure people didn't get confused about the wider state of the game. No harm intended. :-)
I played my first game with my new TSons army this evening against SW. I lost on VP but tabled my opponent in round 5 with Ahriman and a squad of Rubrics still on the table.
Quite satisfying, despite losing
I really hate deploying on the long table edge when against SW though - those first turn charges are lethal The Chaos Land Raider is going in reserves next time
Sorcerous Facade + Pyric Flux + Twist of Fate + Wrath of the Wronged rocks with a Warpflamer squad of Rubrics
Very disappointing, the old SC set was much better.
No, that was just 10 tzaangor with upgrades, not 20.
I get the feeling the box contents were dictated by the need to get 500ish points into a box that sold for 85 while being sufficient discount to justify getting it. Tzaangor are cheap points wise but add about £35 of "value " each with the upgrade sprue, so they bulk out the box.
So, I played for the first time in a while on Saturday and tried out a new concept. I took a Terminator Sorcerer with battle psyker with Aether WL trait (for fly and +3 move) and the staff that is good against psykers, but also has a base -4ap. He has 5 attacks, hits on 2's, St 6 ap-4. With Diabolic Strength it gets him up to 6 attacks with St 8. He actually did quite a bit of work against the Ravenwing army I was facing. And he is only 115 points and does not take up a HQ slot (with the Exhaled everyone is going to take anyway). I think he is something to think about to add a little more punch in CC, but save 40ish points from the DP (also the slot if you want that many HQ).
xeen wrote: So, I played for the first time in a while on Saturday and tried out a new concept. I took a Terminator Sorcerer with battle psyker with Aether WL trait (for fly and +3 move) and the staff that is good against psykers, but also has a base -4ap. He has 5 attacks, hits on 2's, St 6 ap-4. With Diabolic Strength it gets him up to 6 attacks with St 8. He actually did quite a bit of work against the Ravenwing army I was facing. And he is only 115 points and does not take up a HQ slot (with the Exhaled everyone is going to take anyway). I think he is something to think about to add a little more punch in CC, but save 40ish points from the DP (also the slot if you want that many HQ).
Yeah, I also like to have a punchy character in my TS armies. Even if most of the time I tend to go with an exalted. I only for the base fly keyword and using Dilettante.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Curious, how useful do you guys think it would be to allocate 100 points to 2 squads of cultists for possible engage on all fronts or ROD.
From my limited experience (all of five games, all 1000pts or less)... not particularly. Thousands Sons lean on their unit durability, especially to damage 1 weapons, a lot- your opponent is going to be cursing and wondering if there isn't anything else to shoot with all his tac marine's bolters or what-not. A couple of units that will be immediately splattered by incidental mid-range bolter fire from a half-squad of marines is going to just sort of... vanish and not even have the grace to distract anything worthwhile from the better weapons shooting Rubrics.
If this were a Guard, or even AdMech, army, and those low-durability-squads were backed up but a boatload more just like them too... might be worth it. If your opponent has to choose between shooting one set of t3 w1 s5+ guts and a dozen others, somebody's going to survive to provide engage. Thousand Sons is not that army.
Consider instead taking a big squad of Rubrics and then dropping 1CP to action-and-shoot them for ROD, or just plopping them down someplace (via Temporal Surge, Sorcerous Facade, Rhino, Risen Rubricae, a million ways to do it) for Engage on All Fronts. That way you're scoring with something the enemy has to move to keep you from scoring (which, after all, is how you win the game), but will find it utterly obnoxious to do so without committing heavy hitters or considerable firepower. Then you also get a large amount of premium-grade high-AP shooting, plus a psyker to Mutate Landscape or just smite with. Way more expensive, sure, but it gets you something that plays to the army's core strengths.
I think it could be worth 1CP and 100 points to threaten a 12 point ROD/RND with them. If we get the rumoured CA change to having to take mono cults they will probably show up more for Time cults to make up for their slowness.
I assume the 30 man is for match ups where you put a 4++ and -1 to hit on them and put them in front of the 10 Scarabs to completely bubble wrap from them charges. The backup use in shooty matches is you just the 150 point cultists like a 115 point spawn unit to go get the point turn one while being a pain to shift.
GW have annouced that in thier new GT 2022 pack, all armies will be locked into a single subfaction, IE we wont be able to have two different <CULT>s in a tourney legal army anymore.
how to people feel about this? i dont play at the level where this is a concern, since i play 1k games with a single <CULT> anyway, but i understand a lot of our high level meta builds use two cults, so it might impact our playability at that level.
xerxeskingofking wrote: GW have annouced that in thier new GT 2022 pack, all armies will be locked into a single subfaction, IE we wont be able to have two different <CULT>s in a tourney legal army anymore.
how to people feel about this? i dont play at the level where this is a concern, since i play 1k games with a single <CULT> anyway, but i understand a lot of our high level meta builds use two cults, so it might impact our playability at that level.
I'm mixed. On the one hand, it reduces the benefits of taking two detachments, vice picking one and filling it out. All to the good- multiple-detachment shenanigans are particularly game-y way of going about things. This continues the trend away from 8th edition's actively providing benefits in the form of CP for taking minimum-cost blocks of otherwise unrelated dudes.
On the other, the entire point of having those multiple detachments in the first place was to let you simulate an army composed of several disparate groups, coming together to assist each other for whatever Fluff/Grimdark reasoning... even if it costs you something (less CP).
...Are we certain that this rule applies to subfactions like Thousand Sons Cults, as opposed to 'whole other codex' 'subfactions' like different Space Marine chapters?
I had already stopped taking multi-detachment armies as I found generally I would rather have the two CP over a few units having a different Cult Power, especially since I use Duplicity, which I want on every unit because in the middle/end of the game you never quit know who will be in the best position to use it. So that is not going to effect me at all. What is funny is the rule does not fix the most abused list with different faction keywords because <witch cult> and <Kabal> are different keywords, so DE players can still bring Black Heart and Strife. LoL.
As to the Cultist discussion above, I have used them in a few games as ten man objective monkeys and they tend to just die really easily. Maybe if they went down to 4 points they could be more easily squeezed in, but as of now, I never have the 50 extra points, or I have like 70 points which at that point might as well bring Tgors instead with their better T and 5++ for objective holding. Now if there was a way to make TS cultists Psykers, like with smite only, with a strat for a CP that would be really interesting. I mean this would make sense fluff wise as Mangus did summon crap tons of psykers from across the galaxy to Prosprio.
xerxeskingofking wrote: GW have annouced that in thier new GT 2022 pack, all armies will be locked into a single subfaction, IE we wont be able to have two different <CULT>s in a tourney legal army anymore.
how to people feel about this? i dont play at the level where this is a concern, since i play 1k games with a single <CULT> anyway, but i understand a lot of our high level meta builds use two cults, so it might impact our playability at that level.
Rest in peace Terminator phalanx of the cult of time.
I had adjusted my list based on the rumors -- went with Time only and I really found it to be lacking. I don't think Time has enough play unless you want to do maybe min sized termies drops everywhere or you're still smitten with the all in crystal blob.
Duplicity is still useful as ever, but I'm feeling like Magic is going to be where I explore for now.
Dilettante
- Trait 1 : Reroll Witchfire/Smite
- Relic 1 : Tutorum
- Trait 2 : Arrogance ( use two cabal abilities )
- Relic 2 : -1 cost to Cabal, reroll denies
CP cast into a third spell
This way I can do Doombolt, Firestorm, and Blast with rerolls on everything ( almost as good as scrolls for Firestorm ) and rerolls on all denies. I can bump Blast to 18" and put another D3 on a character nearby for 6 cabal, which in a typical list still leaves me enough to do +2 / no deny / cast again.
Yeah, I feel like Duplicity is easier to play for most players (me included). This is because master of misinformation is a really powerful warlord trait. Plus the Sorceror facade psychic allows you to reposition a unit every turn in a game where movement is key. And Tsons can only rely on temporal surge to move one unit quickly, this psychic allows us to yeet one unit and temporal surge another. Its just a lot more forgiving than the other cults.
I am still learning cult of time. When you are not duplicity, you really need to think at least one turn, or even two turns ahead on where you want to be. And your relic Umbralific crystal is super important. Smart opponents also target your other units and ignore your big terminator bloc. Cult of time is a lot less forgiving to play compared to duplicity. It feels like I need to play big units of rubrics to play with cult of time, and have at least a Rhino or two in order to give more movement to your rubrics coming out of your Rhinos.
Cult of Duplicity plays differently from cult of time, in composition and even in possibly secondaries.
Daedalus81 wrote: I had adjusted my list based on the rumors -- went with Time only and I really found it to be lacking. I don't think Time has enough play unless you want to do maybe min sized termies drops everywhere or you're still smitten with the all in crystal blob.
Duplicity is still useful as ever, but I'm feeling like Magic is going to be where I explore for now.
Dilettante
- Trait 1 : Reroll Witchfire/Smite
- Relic 1 : Tutorum
- Trait 2 : Arrogance ( use two cabal abilities )
- Relic 2 : -1 cost to Cabal, reroll denies
CP cast into a third spell
This way I can do Doombolt, Firestorm, and Blast with rerolls on everything ( almost as good as scrolls for Firestorm ) and rerolls on all denies. I can bump Blast to 18" and put another D3 on a character nearby for 6 cabal, which in a typical list still leaves me enough to do +2 / no deny / cast again.
Daedalus81 wrote: I had adjusted my list based on the rumors -- went with Time only and I really found it to be lacking. I don't think Time has enough play unless you want to do maybe min sized termies drops everywhere or you're still smitten with the all in crystal blob.
Duplicity is still useful as ever, but I'm feeling like Magic is going to be where I explore for now.
Dilettante
- Trait 1 : Reroll Witchfire/Smite
- Relic 1 : Tutorum
- Trait 2 : Arrogance ( use two cabal abilities )
- Relic 2 : -1 cost to Cabal, reroll denies
CP cast into a third spell
This way I can do Doombolt, Firestorm, and Blast with rerolls on everything ( almost as good as scrolls for Firestorm ) and rerolls on all denies. I can bump Blast to 18" and put another D3 on a character nearby for 6 cabal, which in a typical list still leaves me enough to do +2 / no deny / cast again.
I dunno...I'll noodle and let you know how it goes at the Feb tournament.
I think you should always pick one 10 scarab unit. Why would you select 2x5 scarabs? +1 to wound and +1 strenght from infernal master makes them the best shooting power. Apart from all the other options (all the buff spells, forwarding stratagem etc), Cult of time always works better with a 10 scarab unit.
I think you should always pick one 10 scarab unit. Why would you select 2x5 scarabs? +1 to wound and +1 strenght from infernal master makes them the best shooting power. Apart from all the other options (all the buff spells, forwarding stratagem etc), Cult of time always works better with a 10 scarab unit.
Two five-Scarab units provides less buffing potential and single-point force/durability but it also doubles your count of Scarab Occult Sorcerers- double spellcasting and double psychic actions- and can be in two places at once, to hold multiple objectives or pressure multiple areas of the board.
On balance, I think I agree that having that single lump is generally better... but I can see how, if one is very confident in the base durability that even a five-man-squad is up to par, splitting them up can work out well.
After two losses with my new TSons army, I finally won this evening. 65-51 and tabled my opponent
The Rubric flamer brick was unstoppable, and the Scarabs (buffed by an Infernal Master) did a load of work. The first half of the game was spent dishing out a whole load of psychic and flamer pain, then Ahriman's manoeuvrability along with Sorcerous Facade on other units was critical in gaining enough VP in the final rounds. The Chaos Land Raider wasn't exceptional, but it did hold the back objective and contribute shooting where needed to supplement the other units.
xerxeskingofking wrote: New FAQ out, not sure what's been changed though as the document is showing as updated but no changes are highlighted.
Huh. They took Malicious Volleys away from the Helbrute, just as I got my two assembled. Annoying... though I suppose Dreadnoughts in general really don't need the help in 40k 9th.
Hmm, just want some thoughts on this. What do you guys think about putting Ardent automata for 20 points on a big block of 10 Scarab Occult Terminators.
Ardent autotmata allows you to do an action and still shoot. Now, hear me out, I am not going to use this very often. But... there are selected situations this might have tactical plays and they mainly have to do with Ubralific crystal.
1) I can crystal the Occult terminators onto a midpoint objective and raise a banner there and still shoot with them, if I want to go for aggressive play and I took raise the banners. This works in games where I am pretty sure I will be able to survive fine on that point and I won't get charged on turn 1.
2) For Retrieve Data. This oddly works well. I save the crystal until turn 4 or 5 where most opponents simply won't have the assets left to screen out an entire quarter of their board. And then I crystal the terminators there, they do Retrieve Data and still get to shoot with all of their guns. So, I might be able to shoot an opponent off his back point, plus I get to do retrieve data which will surely off since its a big block of terminators.
BTW, can I clarify one more thing? Temporal surge. Can I cast that to move a terminator squad that is engaged in close combat to move them out of engagement range and they can then still shoot and charge ? Or is this considered falling back even though its done via casting a psychic? The wording for temporal surge is "blah blah blah, that unit can make a normal move"
Now, in the core rules, it says that there is "normal move", and there is "fall back". Normal move definition is actually, just move and cannot end within engagement range of an enemy unit. It also says that units in engagement Range can only either "fall back" or stay stationary. However, does Temporal surge overide that and still make a unit engaged in close combat get to "normal move" out of combat.
BTW, can I clarify one more thing? Temporal surge. Can I cast that to move a terminator squad that is engaged in close combat to move them out of engagement range and they can then still shoot and charge ? Or is this considered falling back even though its done via casting a psychic? The wording for temporal surge is "blah blah blah, that unit can make a normal move"
Now, in the core rules, it says that there is "normal move", and there is "fall back". Normal move definition is actually, just move and cannot end within engagement range of an enemy unit. It also says that units in engagement Range can only either "fall back" or stay stationary. However, does Temporal surge overide that and still make a unit engaged in close combat get to "normal move" out of combat.
No that is not allowed:
Rulebook:
"If a unit is within Engagement Range of any enemy models when it is selected to move, it cannot make a Normal Move or Advance; it can either Remain Stationary or it can Fall Back."
shogun wrote: I think you should always pick one 10 scarab unit. Why would you select 2x5 scarabs? +1 to wound and +1 strenght from infernal master makes them the best shooting power. Apart from all the other options (all the buff spells, forwarding stratagem etc), Cult of time always works better with a 10 scarab unit.
There's a double edged sword here.
10 man SoT are less flexible, require more CP to protect, and more room to deepstrike or crystal. It also makes it easier for the opponent to focus on on where the "problems are".
Whether or not the loss in raw output is worth the increase in flexibility is TBD. Though it seems Custodes are going to be a huge problem and I'm still noodling that since my store has a Custodes guy who I play regularly.
shogun wrote: I think you should always pick one 10 scarab unit. Why would you select 2x5 scarabs? +1 to wound and +1 strenght from infernal master makes them the best shooting power. Apart from all the other options (all the buff spells, forwarding stratagem etc), Cult of time always works better with a 10 scarab unit.
There's a double edged sword here.
10 man SoT are less flexible, require more CP to protect, and more room to deepstrike or crystal. It also makes it easier for the opponent to focus on on where the "problems are".
Whether or not the loss in raw output is worth the increase in flexibility is TBD. Though it seems Custodes are going to be a huge problem and I'm still noodling that since my store has a Custodes guy who I play regularly.
I disagree, Dropping in 10 terminators turn 1 with crystal actually gives them more mid field flexibility. The enemy cannot remove them from the objective and my Ahriman and Exalted Sorcerer are better protected standing behind them. If the opponent ignores them then the can temperal surge everywhere and keep shooting everything. Thousand sons use rubric marines for objective grapping and don't need to rely on 5 unit terminators. Dropping in terminators turn 2 is to late because most times the enemy moves agressive turn 1 and makes it hard to deepstrike close. The only downside is the expensive -1 damage against shooting stratagem (3CP).
I don't know about the new custodes rules but I do know that 10 terminators with +1 to hit (presage), reroll 1 to hit aura, +1 Strenght for shooting (infernal master) and +1 to wound stratagem still hurts. Bolter/ reaper cannon shots don't care about 4+ inv save or -1damage and forces a gakload of 4+saves.
I think 10 Scarabs have been the MVP of every win I've had. They are the 430~450 point lynchpin unit you wish Primarchs were.
10 - 5 - 5 has been good to me. I've been trying to resist getting the second squad of 10 for a long time, but my losses tend to be situations where the 10 man has to be sacrificed (or I mess up) and then there is no where to drop the good buffs. That is where second breakfast/10 man comes in.
Yup. I think 10 Occult terminators in one squad are the way to go. Buffs stack so well on a big squad of ten. Plus if you take two squads of ten instead of 10, 5, 5, then you can take the To the Last secondary quite comfortably. Its no mean feat to kill two squads of ten Occults. Meanwhile, its easier to kill two squads of 5 Occults as opposed to one big squad of 10.
Dropping in 10 terminators turn 1 with crystal actually gives them more mid field flexibility. The enemy cannot remove them from the objective
There are some units that You will not want to be anywhere near with 10 Scarabs. 3+ damage weapons instakills them and they dont have have high S weapons for combat. Dreadnoughts, high T monsters. Even a lousy rhino can charge them and survive.
Eldenfirefly wrote:Yup. I think 10 Occult terminators in one squad are the way to go. Buffs stack so well on a big squad of ten. Plus if you take two squads of ten instead of 10, 5, 5, then you can take the To the Last secondary quite comfortably. Its no mean feat to kill two squads of ten Occults. Meanwhile, its easier to kill two squads of 5 Occults as opposed to one big squad of 10.
Yes, 'to the last secondary' is also a good reason. I also forgot to mention that you can increase the charge range with reviving 1 or 2 terminators and assault with the full unit into something juicy. And don't forget the ' inescapable forewarding' stratagem. a 18 inch bubble with free shooting option if a enemy unit drops down (out of reserve or teleport..)
Eldenfirefly wrote:There are some units that You will not want to be anywhere near with 10 Scarabs. 3+ damage weapons instakills them and they dont have have high S weapons for combat. Dreadnoughts, high T monsters. Even a lousy rhino can charge them and survive.
True, the are not invincible. But the -1 to hit and 4++ really helps. With that it is not a big problem if a few D3 attacks hit them. But we are comparing 10 terminators with 2x5 terminators. 10 terminators can get a -1 damage against shooting, keep reviving models even after losing 5 terminators and use the +1 to wound in close combat. With a +1 to wound and presage it is possible to kill a rhino with 6 terminators hitting back.
I don't see why anybody would pick 2x5 terminators because then it is better to go full rubric marines.
Just a quick tip I have found helpful. I ordered large (golf ball size)blank D6 from Amazon for like $5. I put on one 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 for smite and the other 4,5,6,7,8,9 for mutate. Whenever I use smite I turn the smite dice and same with mutate. It has really helped keep track of how many smites have been cases and what is needed and also helps me remember that mutate also goes up (I forgot this a time or two). Hope this is helpful.
xeen wrote: Just a quick tip I have found helpful. I ordered large (golf ball size) D6 from Amazon for like $5. I put on one 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 for smite and the other 4,5,6,7,8,9 for mutate. Whenever I use smite I turn the smite dice and same with mutate. It has really helped keep track of how many smites have been cases and what is needed and also helps me remember that mutate also goes up (I forgot this a time or two). Hope this is helpful.
So I played against custodus... damn these jetbikes are fast and tough. My 10 terminators can really take a punch but 6 Praetors bikes and a captain really is too much. I played a double tournament and my companion finished them off (grey knight dreadknights) after the removed my terminators. I failed the 'weaver of fates' power so no 4++ for the terminators, so that didn't help.
The 10 terminator setup is still the best way to deal with them but I also need a decent counter. You have to create the situation that the bikes will always be punished after the charged a unit.
My 2000 point list will include 5+4 spawns that i'am going to keep close or simply shield the terminators with them.
Removing the invulnerable save is also crucial if you hit back with ap3 swords or shoot with reaper cannons.
I have a feeling it might end up similar to my pre Nachmund Dark Eldar games. You get to turn 3/4 and the DE (now AC) just seem to have 1 unit (or 2 small units) too many and then the domino effect happens.
I am very unhappy that the 4+++ chapter seems to be the best and most popular chapter. I was really hoping it would be one of the other ones.
EightFoldPath wrote: I have a feeling it might end up similar to my pre Nachmund Dark Eldar games. You get to turn 3/4 and the DE (now AC) just seem to have 1 unit (or 2 small units) too many and then the domino effect happens.
I am very unhappy that the 4+++ chapter seems to be the best and most popular chapter. I was really hoping it would be one of the other ones.
It addresses what would be their biggest weakness. MW. And its probably the easiest to play. You will always remember you have a 4+++ against MW when you are being hit by MW.
EightFoldPath wrote: I have a feeling it might end up similar to my pre Nachmund Dark Eldar games. You get to turn 3/4 and the DE (now AC) just seem to have 1 unit (or 2 small units) too many and then the domino effect happens.
I am very unhappy that the 4+++ chapter seems to be the best and most popular chapter. I was really hoping it would be one of the other ones.
It addresses what would be their biggest weakness. MW. And its probably the easiest to play. You will always remember you have a 4+++ against MW when you are being hit by MW.
Yea I played a Custodies player this past weekend rocking that ability (Also it has Salamader type re-rolls). The list I was playing was heavy on MW (cult magic) spam for heavy damage and he just basically shut it down. We could have played that game 100 times I would never been able to win.
With this new meta (Tau also has multiple ways to ignore MW though not 4+++), I think we can't rely on MW spam and need some kind of heavy firepower. Unfortunately we are very limited in what we can take in that regards. I am working with Leviathan Dread and some normal LC/ML dreads to see if they can give me the heavy hits against larger targets. Also, I think Duplicity is the best cult, with Time second and everything else "fun list only". The maneuverability is just so important with the way the new missions are structured.
Yea I played a Custodies player this past weekend rocking that ability (Also it has Salamader type re-rolls). The list I was playing was heavy on MW (cult magic) spam for heavy damage and he just basically shut it down. We could have played that game 100 times I would never been able to win.
With this new meta (Tau also has multiple ways to ignore MW though not 4+++), I think we can't rely on MW spam and need some kind of heavy firepower. Unfortunately we are very limited in what we can take in that regards. I am working with Leviathan Dread and some normal LC/ML dreads to see if they can give me the heavy hits against larger targets. Also, I think Duplicity is the best cult, with Time second and everything else "fun list only". The maneuverability is just so important with the way the new missions are structured.
I believe custodes pick "4+++ against mortal wounds+ or the "fall back and charge" ability, but cannot have both. My 10 terminators with -1 to hit and 4++ save can take a big charge but after that I need the right backup to punish them. I want to keep 'cult of time' and first turn I use temperal surge to move the terminators closer and keep the crystal in case i need to teleport out of close combat and start reviving terminators back. I think i'am going to switch my excalted sorcerer (with defensive spells) with a daemon prince that got the plate and -1Damage WLT. If the custodes bikes charge and the got the 4+++ against mortal wounds I counterattack with my daemon prince and try to pin them down. if the got the fall back and charge ability I throw as much mortal wounds at them and still counterattack with everything I got to take them down.
The ' Egleighen's orrey' relic also starts to look appealing, so that it can ignore the transhuman only wound on 4+ stuff.
Yes, normally custodes can only have the 4+++ or the fall back and charge, but the 4+++ subfaction has a 1cp strat that let's them put a unit into another subfaction bonus for a full battle round (Esteemed Amalgam). But note they loose the 4+++ and the free re roll if they do this.
The AC 4+++ into fall back and charge happens in the wrong order for TSons.
In their turn they move, shoot and charge the Scarabs. Then you get your turn to smite into the 4+++. Then in their next turn they activate fall back and charge (and shoot for another CP) and either finish off the Scarabs or go for an even better target. After two turns of shoot and charge they can die with their normal 6+++ knowing they traded up substantialy. (At which point the second unit of bikes has started the next round of this).
The Orrery doesn't work on transhuman style abilities only on minuses to wound. It is a good relic but I prefer Crystal, Prism, Scrolls at the moment. Although the Scrolls are maybe the luxury relic I need to drop if I want to be more optimal.
I'm all in on Duplicity currently, although I don't take the WL trait as too often I deployed for going second and then just used it to boost the alpha strike slightly. I don't even use the spell that much, but the threat of it keeps entire enemy units out of the game which is so valuable.
xerxeskingofking wrote:Yes, normally custodes can only have the 4+++ or the fall back and charge, but the 4+++ subfaction has a 1cp strat that let's them put a unit into another subfaction bonus for a full battle round (Esteemed Amalgam). But note they loose the 4+++ and the free re roll if they do this.
EightFoldPath wrote:The AC 4+++ into fall back and charge happens in the wrong order for TSons.
Didn't know the could switch this with a stratagem.
Ah well, I think the 10 terminator blob backed up by a plate daemon prince, spawns and maybe other stuff, like S6 warp flamers (+1 Strenght with infernal master +1Strenght with psychic power), is the best way to go. Could also counterattack with as much force staffs as long as the custodes cannot kill stuff with counter offensive stratagem.
I hope the only kill about 6 terminators, then crystal the 4 terminator outside 9 inch... revive two terminators and remove invulnerable save from one custodes bike unit. shoot with 6 terminators with a +1 to wound. Then charge back in with 6 terminators (also with a +1 to wound) and other stuff to take them down.
Anyone have any suggestions on how to take on Tau. Had a game where where my opponent fielded two 5 man Crisis suits in which all the weapons were strength 8 and did at least damage 2. Broadsides are T5 and have 8 wounds now, and auto wound on 6's. Their guns do auto mortal wounds on successful to wound rolls. All in all with their character support, I was losing 3 units a turn.
Don't go out into the open to get shot at by his line of sight guns. Our termies can tank their out of LOS missiles fine. Hide behind obscuring terrain. Force his suits to come in super danger close if he wants to shoot. Then he will be open to getting charged.
Tsons have ways to get close. (Warp time, sorcerous facade, Crystal). Charge him. Tsons aren't great in combat, but believe it or not, Tau are even worse. So, charge him.
The list I'm up against as three flat redeploys, stealth suits with a beacon for turn one deep strikes, a warlord that grants ignore all penalties to hit with rerolls to hit. I've been trying to "play the mission" but with their speed and firepower, as well as changes to abhor the witch its been brutal. Sons don't trade all that well.
The4thEnemy wrote: The list I'm up against as three flat redeploys, stealth suits with a beacon for turn one deep strikes, a warlord that grants ignore all penalties to hit with rerolls to hit. I've been trying to "play the mission" but with their speed and firepower, as well as changes to abhor the witch its been brutal. Sons don't trade all that well.
Its not so efficient, but Tsons can use 2 cp to infiltrate a rubric squad with a strategem Risen Rubricae. Its a way to screen out his stealth suits because then he can't put his stealth suits within 9 inches of your infiltrated Rubric squad. He is probably using his redeploy to see if he goes first or not to decide on whether he wants to be aggressive with his stealth suit homing beacon.
Another way is to counter deploy. Take cult of duplicity, and now you also have a warlord trait to redeploy your warlord and d3 units. Usually, its just that one key Termie unit you need to redeploy out of danger from his potential crisis suit bomb.
Worse come to worse. Put your terminators into deep strike. He can't shoot what is not even on the board. .
Just remember this about Tau. Whatever they can see and shoot, it will die, or at least get heavily destroyed. And they are very mobile now (potential redeploy, homing beacon manta strike, crisis suits that can move up to 18 inches and move shoot move.). Again, if they are so aggressive, they are getting super danger close. This opens them to being charged. And once they get tied up in combat, only 1 unit gets to fall back and shoot with their commander ability. And once they do get tied up in combat, they can only shoot into the unit they are engaged in.
You have to know what his hardest shooting units are. If you see a 5 crisis suit unit with tons of high Cyclic Ion guns, fusion guns, plasma guns, etc. And that unit has shield drones as well. That unit is potentially costing as much as 400 points. It will delete stuff it shoots at. It similar to our 10 man Occult termie unit that cost 430 points. Whatever we aim that at usually dies as well (with buffs). So, just as that Occult termie unit is one of our key units that absolutely cannot just die for nothing. That crisis suit unit is in the same boat. If it comes down from manta strike, destroys a screen of cultists or even just one rubric marine squad only. And next turn it gets shot, charged and destroyed. Then he just threw away 400 points for one of his most effective units. And while a crisis unit with drones is tanky. If it is so far forward it is in range to get shot at and charged by multiple units, then it is still likely to get destroyed (or heavily depleted).
Not saying it will be an easy match. But at least Tsons have a chance against Tau compared to some other armies. Our rubrics and Occults can weather their out of LOS shooting much better than most other armies. This means they need to come at us aggressively in order to get angles to shoot us if the terrain on the board has been set up fairly and properly. We can take secondaries like Mental Interrogate and hide out of LOS and just get 3 points every turn. Tau cannot stop us. We can take "To the last", "Raise banners" and again, force Tau to come danger close.
Tau are not good at holding objectives. They are not good at taking objectives either. They have to shoot something off, and then move something onto it. Make sure the terrain has been set up properly. People play with too little obscuring terrain or just too little terrain period. By right, both armies should be able to start without being able to shoot at each other on initial deployment. Not unless he makes super aggressive moves.
We can surprise Tau with our temporal surge as well. Chao Spawn under temporal surge have a move of 14 inches (cos double move). That plus a 2d6 charge is a long threat range. If we can single out and kill the Tau commander, then his crisis suit unit cannot even fall back and shoot anymore. The commander in crisis suit only has 6W and can only take 2 drones. If he gets charged by 5 Spawn. Get through his drones, and if he fails 3 saves, he is dead. Use the Fated mutation and you will be doing 10d3 +5 attacking on his commander with his 2 drones. Highly likely he dies. Not enough attacks, chose the more attacks mutation so you will be throwing 15d3+5 attacks at him. Ideally, kill him, consolidate into his crisis unit. Now his crisis unit cannot fall back and shoot because his tau commander is dead. And if he stays in combat and spends all his shooting killing a bunch of cheap chaos spawn. Then that's a great trade too.
dreadblade wrote: After two losses with my new TSons army, I finally won this evening. 65-51 and tabled my opponent
The Rubric flamer brick was unstoppable, and the Scarabs (buffed by an Infernal Master) did a load of work. The first half of the game was spent dishing out a whole load of psychic and flamer pain, then Ahriman's manoeuvrability along with Sorcerous Facade on other units was critical in gaining enough VP in the final rounds. The Chaos Land Raider wasn't exceptional, but it did hold the back objective and contribute shooting where needed to supplement the other units.
A similar result against Orks on Wednesday using the same tactics (I previously played against SW). I've not played Orks before so I wasn't sure how it would go. Turns out they're quite squishy and run away lots
shogun wrote: So I played against custodus... damn these jetbikes are fast and tough. My 10 terminators can really take a punch but 6 Praetors bikes and a captain really is too much. I played a double tournament and my companion finished them off (grey knight dreadknights) after the removed my terminators. I failed the 'weaver of fates' power so no 4++ for the terminators, so that didn't help.
The 10 terminator setup is still the best way to deal with them but I also need a decent counter. You have to create the situation that the bikes will always be punished after the charged a unit.
My 2000 point list will include 5+4 spawns that i'am going to keep close or simply shield the terminators with them.
Removing the invulnerable save is also crucial if you hit back with ap3 swords or shoot with reaper cannons.
This is why I am anti-10 man. You need to play more cagey and a huge block just does not allow for that. That said - it's mostly a losing battle v Custodes right now anyway.
Against Custodes its just very tough right now. Most are playing Emperor's Chosen, so they get a 4+++ against our MW. Tsons aren't usually shooty enough to take out enough bikes on turn 1. And we actually don't like to be tagged in combat. Once those bikes do tag us in combat,(usually on turn 2), its really rough for us.
Normally, Occults are fine in combat, but against T6 bikes where they wound on 5s... its rough.
shogun wrote: So I played against custodus... damn these jetbikes are fast and tough. My 10 terminators can really take a punch but 6 Praetors bikes and a captain really is too much. I played a double tournament and my companion finished them off (grey knight dreadknights) after the removed my terminators. I failed the 'weaver of fates' power so no 4++ for the terminators, so that didn't help.
The 10 terminator setup is still the best way to deal with them but I also need a decent counter. You have to create the situation that the bikes will always be punished after the charged a unit.
My 2000 point list will include 5+4 spawns that i'am going to keep close or simply shield the terminators with them.
Removing the invulnerable save is also crucial if you hit back with ap3 swords or shoot with reaper cannons.
This is why I am anti-10 man. You need to play more cagey and a huge block just does not allow for that. That said - it's mostly a losing battle v Custodes right now anyway.
Sorry, but thats a bad reason to be anti-10 man terminator unit. You cannot play cagey against custodus with 16 inch movement and 2x5 terminators is not going to help with that. Weaver and glamour can only protect one unit. You have to create a situation that the bikes need to deal with the 10 terminator brick. Custodes have to move in and assault and hopefully kill only max 6 terminators. Next turn crystal them out of close combat, revive models (increase assault range) and throw everything at them. Problem is that this relies on the succesfull 4++ terminator saves and unsuccesfull d3 damage from the custodes. While testing this, at times I would only lose 3 terminators but sometimes I would lose all 10 of them!! It's very swingy..
shogun wrote: So I played against custodus... damn these jetbikes are fast and tough. My 10 terminators can really take a punch but 6 Praetors bikes and a captain really is too much. I played a double tournament and my companion finished them off (grey knight dreadknights) after the removed my terminators. I failed the 'weaver of fates' power so no 4++ for the terminators, so that didn't help.
The 10 terminator setup is still the best way to deal with them but I also need a decent counter. You have to create the situation that the bikes will always be punished after the charged a unit.
My 2000 point list will include 5+4 spawns that i'am going to keep close or simply shield the terminators with them.
Removing the invulnerable save is also crucial if you hit back with ap3 swords or shoot with reaper cannons.
This is why I am anti-10 man. You need to play more cagey and a huge block just does not allow for that. That said - it's mostly a losing battle v Custodes right now anyway.
Sorry, but thats a bad reason to be anti-10 man terminator unit. You cannot play cagey against custodus with 16 inch movement and 2x5 terminators is not going to help with that. Weaver and glamour can only protect one unit. You have to create a situation that the bikes need to deal with the 10 terminator brick. Custodes have to move in and assault and hopefully kill only max 6 terminators. Next turn crystal them out of close combat, revive models (increase assault range) and throw everything at them. Problem is that this relies on the succesfull 4++ terminator saves and unsuccesfull d3 damage from the custodes. While testing this, at times I would only lose 3 terminators but sometimes I would lose all 10 of them!! It's very swingy..
Maybe, finally there is a point to Tgors. To screen those bikes (and now the eldar shining spears). The only hard part is keeping them alive to actually screen, but using obscuring should help with that.
xeen wrote: Maybe, finally there is a point to Tgors. To screen those bikes (and now the eldar shining spears). The only hard part is keeping them alive to actually screen, but using obscuring should help with that.
I've still not built the Tzaangors that came in Hexfire, and I haven't felt I've needed them yet either, but I've not played Custodes...
I've yet played a Nachmund game with Tsons and my meta has tons of Tau and Custodes.
So, theory hammering here.
I have four Terrax Termites....now hear me out.
You don't have to put any units in the Termites, which effectively becomes a tough Carnifex distraction unit that your opponents must deal with on turn 2 in their zone. They'll be able to guarantee getting 2 heavy flamers and 5 melta shots off per Termite...all the while unloading a TSon unit if embarked for that game (game & opponent dependent).
The Termite is a M8" W4 BS3 S7 T8 W14 A3 3+ save unit that gets the Tson 'Aracana' detachment bonus benefiting from 5++ invsave.
E: Tzaangor Shaman, Seeker After Shadows, Weaver of Fates
F: 5x Spawns
DT: Terrax Termite, 2x Heavy Flamers, melta-cutter
DT: Terrax Termite, 2x Heavy Flamers, melta-cutter
DT: Terrax Termite, 2x Heavy Flamers, melta-cutter
DT: Terrax Termite, 2x Heavy Flamers, melta-cutter
Turn 1, we have the option to:
Spawns + Crystal = In Yo Face Spawns
10x warpflamer + Sorcerous Facade = BBQ times
Alternatively, and probably most commonly, I'd only be sending the warpflamer units out in turn one, and the Spawns is escorting (provide counter assault) the DP and/or Shaman.
I really like having 6 Rubric units on the table, then add 4 tough Termite units to keep the heat off the Rubrics seems really spicy, as the Rubrics are free to maximize the mission objections while casting smite/doombolt and plinking.
xeen wrote: It is an interesting strategy, however, can you use 4 Termites? Wouldn't rule of three prevent that? But even with three, I think the concept holds.
I've yet played a Nachmund game with Tsons and my meta has tons of Tau and Custodes.
So, theory hammering here.
I have four Terrax Termites....now hear me out.
You don't have to put any units in the Termites, which effectively becomes a tough Carnifex distraction unit that your opponents must deal with on turn 2 in their zone. They'll be able to guarantee getting 2 heavy flamers and 5 melta shots off per Termite...all the while unloading a TSon unit if embarked for that game (game & opponent dependent).
The Termite is a M8" W4 BS3 S7 T8 W14 A3 3+ save unit that gets the Tson 'Aracana' detachment bonus benefiting from 5++ invsave.
My list goes something like this:
Cult: Duplicity
Cabal Points: 14
Starting CP: 9
E: Tzaangor Shaman, Seeker After Shadows, Weaver of Fates
F: 5x Spawns
DT: Terrax Termite, 2x Heavy Flamers, melta-cutter
DT: Terrax Termite, 2x Heavy Flamers, melta-cutter
DT: Terrax Termite, 2x Heavy Flamers, melta-cutter
DT: Terrax Termite, 2x Heavy Flamers, melta-cutter
Turn 1, we have the option to:
Spawns + Crystal = In Yo Face Spawns
10x warpflamer + Sorcerous Facade = BBQ times
Alternatively, and probably most commonly, I'd only be sending the warpflamer units out in turn one, and the Spawns is escorting (provide counter assault) the DP and/or Shaman.
I really like having 6 Rubric units on the table, then add 4 tough Termite units to keep the heat off the Rubrics seems really spicy, as the Rubrics are free to maximize the mission objections while casting smite/doombolt and plinking.
Thoughts guys?
Thanks!
Missing 30 Scarabs! Just kidding...
You can't Crystal Spawn (or vehicles). INFANTRY only (or the character holding it).
You can't Facade Spawn (or vehicles). INFANTRY or MONSTER only. (So no teleporting Exalteds on Discs).
You can Misinformator Spawn (but still can't do it to vehicles). CULT only so no Tzaangors of any kind can be redeployed including Shaman.
Also, as this came up for a friend recently. For those TS players who don't currently know this, you can't use Temporal Surge's move again after redeploying from either Crystal or Facade or coming in from reserves or deep strike. Also, Surge is INFANTRY, BEASTS or CAVALRY only. Note that this is different to Facade. MONSTERS can teleport but not move twice, while CAVALRY can move twice but not teleport...
As you can see INFANTRY can do pretty much everything. One of the many reasons 20~30 Scarabs are the way...
For your list, I'm not sure the Spawn do much. The Drills are sort of a counter melee threat and for defence I'm pretty sure you want to be casting 4++ and -1 to hit on a Drill rather than Spawn.
Also, you could drop 1 Drill for 2 Rhinos. More capacity but less melta.
Can Drills carry Tzaangors? Maybe take some cheeky goats.
I've yet played a Nachmund game with Tsons and my meta has tons of Tau and Custodes.
So, theory hammering here.
I have four Terrax Termites....now hear me out.
You don't have to put any units in the Termites, which effectively becomes a tough Carnifex distraction unit that your opponents must deal with on turn 2 in their zone. They'll be able to guarantee getting 2 heavy flamers and 5 melta shots off per Termite...all the while unloading a TSon unit if embarked for that game (game & opponent dependent).
The Termite is a M8" W4 BS3 S7 T8 W14 A3 3+ save unit that gets the Tson 'Aracana' detachment bonus benefiting from 5++ invsave.
My list goes something like this:
Cult: Duplicity
Cabal Points: 14
Starting CP: 9
E: Tzaangor Shaman, Seeker After Shadows, Weaver of Fates
F: 5x Spawns
DT: Terrax Termite, 2x Heavy Flamers, melta-cutter
DT: Terrax Termite, 2x Heavy Flamers, melta-cutter
DT: Terrax Termite, 2x Heavy Flamers, melta-cutter
DT: Terrax Termite, 2x Heavy Flamers, melta-cutter
Turn 1, we have the option to:
Spawns + Crystal = In Yo Face Spawns
10x warpflamer + Sorcerous Facade = BBQ times
Alternatively, and probably most commonly, I'd only be sending the warpflamer units out in turn one, and the Spawns is escorting (provide counter assault) the DP and/or Shaman.
I really like having 6 Rubric units on the table, then add 4 tough Termite units to keep the heat off the Rubrics seems really spicy, as the Rubrics are free to maximize the mission objections while casting smite/doombolt and plinking.
Thoughts guys?
Thanks!
Missing 30 Scarabs! Just kidding...
You can't Crystal Spawn (or vehicles). INFANTRY only (or the character holding it).
You can't Facade Spawn (or vehicles). INFANTRY or MONSTER only. (So no teleporting Exalteds on Discs).
You can Misinformator Spawn (but still can't do it to vehicles). CULT only so no Tzaangors of any kind can be redeployed including Shaman.
Also, as this came up for a friend recently. For those TS players who don't currently know this, you can't use Temporal Surge's move again after redeploying from either Crystal or Facade or coming in from reserves or deep strike. Also, Surge is INFANTRY, BEASTS or CAVALRY only. Note that this is different to Facade. MONSTERS can teleport but not move twice, while CAVALRY can move twice but not teleport...
As you can see INFANTRY can do pretty much everything. One of the many reasons 20~30 Scarabs are the way...
For your list, I'm not sure the Spawn do much. The Drills are sort of a counter melee threat and for defence I'm pretty sure you want to be casting 4++ and -1 to hit on a Drill rather than Spawn.
Also, you could drop 1 Drill for 2 Rhinos. More capacity but less melta.
Can Drills carry Tzaangors? Maybe take some cheeky goats.
Thanks for the rules/strategy correction.
Spawns are just about the only thing that can keep up and escort the DP. Everytime I try to move my DP w/o some sort of character protection, my opponent is able to get some shots off.
Yes, Drills can carry some cheeky goats. lol. But, they're just, OK in combat right? Can they be cheekier?
Speaking from experience, its hard to find space for multiple Terrax drills to appear out of deepstrike. They are large models and most opponents can screen screen them out effectively.
That being said, ive benn running 2 (with no passengers) and jut not deep striking them. If you are going to run 4 of them, Id just start them all on the front lines and push forward on turn 1.
Mariongodspeed wrote: Speaking from experience, its hard to find space for multiple Terrax drills to appear out of deepstrike. They are large models and most opponents can screen screen them out effectively.
That being said, ive benn running 2 (with no passengers) and jut not deep striking them. If you are going to run 4 of them, Id just start them all on the front lines and push forward on turn 1.
That's actually a great point.
My warpflamer unit is going to distract them most of the time, and moving 3 or 4 drills mid-table seems like would be my standard strategy.
I'm also considering dropping the 4th drill and the spawns for 2 rhinos. That frees up ~200 ish points to play around with as well.
Sadly the goats aren't that cheeky. They just make for some good throwaways on early turns.
Like Mariongodspeed I was thinking of at least one transport starting on the board. I know it doesn't sound much, but the 3" disembark does make a difference when trying to move to or charge the other side of the board.
EightFoldPath wrote: Sadly the goats aren't that cheeky. They just make for some good throwaways on early turns.
Like Mariongodspeed I was thinking of at least one transport starting on the board. I know it doesn't sound much, but the 3" disembark does make a difference when trying to move to or charge the other side of the board.
Yeah, I don't think I'll give the goats a chance. As weird as it sounds, its a little pricey too.
Also I think I am dropping a drill (to total of 3 drills). That way, I can squeeze in two rhinos and have some extra points on the table. That'd give me 5 transports to shove my rubrics, if needed. I like having that flexibility a lot.
a mainly tzanngor force could be mildly intresting. they can still take rubics and scarabs, i note, and will still need a normal tsons HQ choice to command it. it might be fun at a non competitive level, but GW haven't tempted me to buy a warzone book yet, and this isnt enough to intrest me in this one.
This AoR is completely non-impressive. Giving up the +1 to cast for the 5++ MW protection is a big deal for Thousand Sons armies. Also without any vehicles you will have 0 anti-tank weapons. Also, Tgor Enlightened are one of the worst units in the game, so really this is for just the troops. Finally the fact that it is locked to Cult of Mutation is the nail in the coffin. Even for a fun list I don't think I would use this. Maybe if they made Tgor Enlightened actually decent, and Cult of Mutation's power was improved somehow. I would think about it, but now no. Especially not to buy one of GWs overpriced campaign books.
A general issue for the AoR is being limited to 3 Enlightened datasheets and 3 Spawn datasheets in most games.
From the looks of it you lose:
Daemon Princes
Volkite Contemptors
Temporal Surge!
Presage!
5++ on Rubrics
+1 to cast on everything
And gain:
5++ on Spawn
5+++ vs MWs on Characters, Tzaangor and Spawn
6" pre game move on Characters, Tzaangor and Spawn
The WLT previewed works on Tzaangors but not Characters and Spawn.
The strat previewed works on Tzaangors but not Characters and Spawn.
The extra cabal ritual previewed works on Characters for the casting portion but is limited to Mal/Bless and Tzaangors but not Spawn for the resurrect effect.
There is some sort of boost to cabal points for Shaman via Tzaangors, probably +1 per Tzaangor unit near the Shaman or something.
So the hope is they aren't mentioning some bonkers WLTs, strats (six left) and rituals.
The other hope is Tzaangors to 6 points, Enlightened to 15 (or 12), Spawn to 20 in the next points update.
Or a general dataslate turning CAVALRY into either INFANTRY or BIKERS depending on how big their mount is (so all disc riders would be flying INFANTRY to match Hellions/jump packs).
Yeah, Im not seeing the appeal here. Tzaangors already had a 5++ in regular Thousand Sons and mortal wound vulnerability wasn't exactly high on their list of weaknesses, so I dont know why thats supposed to be considered a big buff... nobody was in a particular rush to field Tzaangors in their Thousand Sons lists as it was, and it wasn't because they were hurt by mortal wounds or capped by needing to field Rubrics/Scarabs first, so for this to be viable it needs to give them a lot more than what they've shown us. The restriction on vehicles and daemons means their only heavy support choice is the Mutalith Vortex Beast and they can't take Daemon Princes (which is dumb since a well converted flying DP would have been a fluffy inclusion alongside bird-goatmen). Tzaangors themselves have no weapons with a S greater than 5 aside from the force staves on the shamans at S7, so you need to take MVBs for some more reliable oomph but you're realistically capped at only fielding 2 at a time because their silly rules mean that after 2 they suffer diminishing returns on their vortex ability. Your other options are to take SOTs or Rubrics for soulreaper cannons and Hellfyre Missiles to give yourself some sort of ranged heavy shooting capability (at which point, why even bother with this RoR vs standard Thousand Sons? Keep in mind the SOTs and Rubrics lose their 5+ invuls and thus are way more vulnerable than they usually are), and aside from that whatever plasma pistols, combi meltas, and the like you can pull out of the HQ slot. You almost need to field Rubrics and SOT so you can get additional psykers into the list, because you're somehow even more reliant on spamming psychic mortal wounds than a regular Thousand Sons list is - but you lost brotherhood of sorcerers and are limited to discipline of change powers, so you're marginally worse at casting than you would be otherwise. In short, its basically all of the downsides of Thousand Sons, cranked up to 11, basically without any upside to make up for it.
The only upside I can think of is chaos spawn with a pregame 6" move or whatever and a 5++(+), but you're asking those chaos spawn to do a lot of lifting to make up for all the other deficiencies and shortcomings. The Braychange is cute but I'm not sure how much resuscitating Goat Birdyani-men is going to make a difference to their utility. The only other use I can see for this is to try to spam as many HQs as possible as an "oops all psyker characters" army and only spend the points on Tzaangors to fill in the rest of your roster.
Yeah, the AOR is dead in the water. You'd need some really strong benefits to make up for losing vengeance and +1 to cast even in a fun fluffy list. It literally takes away everything you want to do as Tsons.
The only hope is at the end of the article, it hints of more in the book. If this is a supplement, that would be great. It could as well be crusade stuff or nothing at all with how past Warcom articles have gone.
Sasori wrote: The only hope is at the end of the article, it hints of more in the book. If this is a supplement, that would be great. It could as well be crusade stuff or nothing at all with how past Warcom articles have gone.
I'm expecting a page in the book to bring Scarabs in line with Blightlords, removing ObSec and upping the points cost to 42.
well that might fix the armies lack of ranged AT, etc, not that I expect a single knight to push TSons into top tier, but it's a decently capable army already and knight support will fill some notable gaps.
Sasori wrote: Well, it looks like we'll be able to take a Dreadblade in a super heavy
That would be awesome. Where did you see that?
It is in the Chaos Knights News leaks. That you can take a dreadblade without losing codex purity rules is a leaked rule, so I would also probably wait until confirmation until you buy a new knight if you don't already have one. I really like this because I think the new Chaos Knight models are rad but I don't want to start a whole Chaos Knight army, so I might get one to use with my TS/CSM. I also don't think that this will make TS top tier but it could be fun. This is certainly better news than the AoR rules. .
Sasori wrote: Well, it looks like we'll be able to take a Dreadblade in a super heavy
That would be awesome. Where did you see that?
It is in the Chaos Knights News leaks. That you can take a dreadblade without losing codex purity rules is a leaked rule, so I would also probably wait until confirmation until you buy a new knight if you don't already have one. I really like this because I think the new Chaos Knight models are rad but I don't want to start a whole Chaos Knight army, so I might get one to use with my TS/CSM. I also don't think that this will make TS top tier but it could be fun. This is certainly better news than the AoR rules. .
I already have a Chaos Knights army and have been thinking about souping in a knight for a while.
Balance Dataslate is out, Armour of Contempt is such a huge gift to TSons, just in time for Chaos Knights to give a much needed ranged heavy shooting boost via dreadblades, and also one less reason to bother fielding Tzaangors.
chaos0xomega wrote: Balance Dataslate is out, Armour of Contempt is such a huge gift to TSons, just in time for Chaos Knights to give a much needed ranged heavy shooting boost via dreadblades, and also one less reason to bother fielding Tzaangors.
I don't think we get the new buff? I mean, it says no one who has any special abilities which modify ap/saves already, right? Wouldn't All is Dust prevent it?
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: I don't think we get the new buff? I mean, it says no one who has any special abilities which modify ap/saves already, right? Wouldn't All is Dust prevent it?
That's what I thought at first, but it specifically mentions things that reduce AP, not bonus to saves. This appears to be a 'no gotchas' buff to Rubrics/Scarabs/Vehicles for TS. Hell, I'm even wondering about Land Raiders again.
That said, I'm still waiting for the other shoe to drop somewhere.
True, this buff didn't happen in a vacuum. TSons may have got a lot better, but so did a number of other factions so its not an automatic lift for us at the expense of all others, though I think the impact on TSons will be more disproportionate/pronounced than it will for many of the other factions owing to the other factors the army has going for it. As all those other factions, excepting Guard, are more or less benefiting from the same buff, I don't expect it to have much of an impact on TSons performance vs those armies - we will have a harder time (relatively speaking) winning vs Guard than we did before, but que sera, sera.
Also worth keeping in mind that while some of the weaker armies below us got buffed, a few of the armies above us got nerfed too. Custodes took a big hit, while Tau and Harlequins got a moderate adjustment (I still expect Harlequins to absolutely stomp despite their points increase, whereas I think Tau will be less impacted as they will likely adjust lists and playstyles a bit to better optimize against the changes). Will it get TSons from 40% to 50% WR? Maybe, maybe not, but it will definitely get us closer to 50% than we are now.
chaos0xomega wrote: Maybe, maybe not, but it will definitely get us closer to 50% than we are now.
The calculus has changed, for sure. Land Raider looks interesting now, at least worth a casual look. Soulreapers, Khopesh, Seer's Bane, all come out of it well it seems. Perhaps I won't be putting an army full of target dummies on the table for awhile, hard to say.
For sure, I suddenly don't feel as dumb for buying a Land Raider Achilles for my TSons army lol
I *do* feel a bit dumb for buying the pair of Vindicator laser destroyers though. Right now I'm thinking that siege shield on the regular Vindicator gives them a bit of a boost over the laser destroyer variant.
Ironically, this change kind of solidifies the dead on arrival status for the AoR preview earlier this week. TS is about Rubrics, Scarabs, and Vehicles, chicken people have no place in the new order.
TwinPoleTheory wrote: Ironically, this change kind of solidifies the dead on arrival status for the AoR preview earlier this week. TS is about Rubrics, Scarabs, and Vehicles, chicken people have no place in the new order.
Remember - they could have done for Tzaangors what they did for 'nids with Crusher Stampede.
True, but the laundry list of things GW could have done with TS that would have been interesting, flavorful, different, and most importantly, not lazy, requires a very long post that nobody wants to read.
TwinPoleTheory wrote: Ironically, this change kind of solidifies the dead on arrival status for the AoR preview earlier this week. TS is about Rubrics, Scarabs, and Vehicles, chicken people have no place in the new order.
Remember - they could have done for Tzaangors what they did for 'nids with Crusher Stampede.
Be mad about it.
One day the bird boys will rise ! In the meantime, if someone is passing by Paris I'll endeavour to find them a new home As for the balance patch, for me the big winner of our dex is the Hellbrute. -1D, 3+, 5++, ignore 1 AP. That's tanky !
20 termis and 2 volkite nay be good as volkite is the obly weapon not affected by those changes and do mortal wounds
Yeah but blobs of Termies and the Forgeworld dreads were alredy the better choice -1 AP is a much bigger leap for the Hellbrute or the humble Predator.
problem is that the contemptor and the termies also get the same benefit, so while it may have made the helbrute better it also made everything else better too.
I think we really got a boost with the balance patch. Our rubrics and terminators were already difficult to damage with small arms now they will be getting 2+ saves v -1 and -2 respectively. I use dreads and it will helps with those as well. Not going to make us top tier but helpful.
xeen wrote: I think we really got a boost with the balance patch. Our rubrics and terminators were already difficult to damage with small arms now they will be getting 2+ saves v -1 and -2 respectively. I use dreads and it will helps with those as well. Not going to make us top tier but helpful.
It definitely improves the strongest units in the codex significantly. Rubrics saving on a 4+ vs Genestealers is nice. As you say, it's not going to push TS to the top tables or anything like that, but the casual games will definitely have a bit more parity.
We got a big boost from Armor of contempt. Our durability got buffed. All our vbehicles (including hellbrutes) and our terminators and our rubrics got more durable. And all is dust stacks with Armor of contempt as well.
Like seriously, a Tau army now trying to use out of LOS shooting against our rubrics or terminators in cover? lol They might as well give up. They will hardly scratch us now.
And with our MW output, we are hurt less by the same increase in durability that other marine armies got because Mortal wounds bypass armor anyway. Tsons got a very nice buff with the new dataslate.
Eldenfirefly wrote: We got a big boost from Armor of contempt. Our durability got buffed. All our vbehicles (including hellbrutes) and our terminators and our rubrics got more durable. And all is dust stacks with Armor of contempt as well.
Like seriously, a Tau army now trying to use out of LOS shooting against our rubrics or terminators in cover? lol They might as well give up. They will hardly scratch us now.
And with our MW output, we are hurt less by the same increase in durability that other marine armies got because Mortal wounds bypass armor anyway. Tsons got a very nice buff with the new dataslate.
Inferno boltguns and warpflamers did take a bit of a hit against other Armor of Contempt forces, but as has been pointed out soulreapers and (for Scarabs) khopesh swords can make up for that a little bit.
Eldenfirefly wrote: We got a big boost from Armor of contempt. Our durability got buffed. All our vbehicles (including hellbrutes) and our terminators and our rubrics got more durable. And all is dust stacks with Armor of contempt as well.
Like seriously, a Tau army now trying to use out of LOS shooting against our rubrics or terminators in cover? lol They might as well give up. They will hardly scratch us now.
And with our MW output, we are hurt less by the same increase in durability that other marine armies got because Mortal wounds bypass armor anyway. Tsons got a very nice buff with the new dataslate.
Inferno boltguns and warpflamers did take a bit of a hit against other Armor of Contempt forces, but as has been pointed out soulreapers and (for Scarabs) khopesh swords can make up for that a little bit.
How much does this new rule help Magnus?
It doesn't sadly. While durability is an issue for him, the main issue is he really doesn't add anything worth taking. Ahriman and some SOT pretty much do his job better. Magnus is only going to be worth taking if he dropped to like 300 points or gets a new datasheet.
Eldenfirefly wrote: We got a big boost from Armor of contempt. Our durability got buffed. All our vbehicles (including hellbrutes) and our terminators and our rubrics got more durable. And all is dust stacks with Armor of contempt as well.
Like seriously, a Tau army now trying to use out of LOS shooting against our rubrics or terminators in cover? lol They might as well give up. They will hardly scratch us now.
And with our MW output, we are hurt less by the same increase in durability that other marine armies got because Mortal wounds bypass armor anyway. Tsons got a very nice buff with the new dataslate.
Inferno boltguns and warpflamers did take a bit of a hit against other Armor of Contempt forces, but as has been pointed out soulreapers and (for Scarabs) khopesh swords can make up for that a little bit.
How much does this new rule help Magnus?
It doesn't sadly. While durability is an issue for him, the main issue is he really doesn't add anything worth taking. Ahriman and some SOT pretty much do his job better. Magnus is only going to be worth taking if he dropped to like 300 points or gets a new datasheet.
Speaking of Magnus. It's kind of telling when you look at the Tyranid dex that we're one of the few (?) balanced army of 9th. GW went to length to prevent us from healing Magnus while the Nids are over flowing with means to summon and heal models.
Match won against the top1 Astra Militarum this year in my country in the biggest tournament here.
He came with anti-chaos relic, spam cadia vengeance and lost relic of cadia for full rerolls in aoe.
My termis were invincible. I was playing 2 volkite, 20 termis, 3 characters and rubrics/spawns. To the last and stuff.
First turn he shoot everything into my termis in cover and did nothing. Second turn he used all his resources into my army and killed everything but the characters and the termis, for the third round it was too late for him to come back because my termies had enough time to cross the map and block everything in combat.
Termis in cover are invincible. We had real problems with anti-tank weaponry and charges. Now we are reducing AP and this will make the matches more long and with less burst spikes, which benefit us a lot.
Tanking armies like DG will benefit the most of this change but we have the mortal resource that will make us even stronger against DG, as they will have even more troubles killing us and mortal damage is untouched.
I let open the option of including in my army some IK instead of the 2 volkite + exalted with eghleighen, as we need antitank very hard
Like seriously, a Tau army now trying to use out of LOS shooting against our rubrics or terminators in cover? lol They might as well give up. They will hardly scratch us now.
we already were too lol. I played a game against Tau and he managed to kill a single 5-man of rubrics with his whole army
Eldenfirefly wrote: We got a big boost from Armor of contempt. Our durability got buffed. All our vbehicles (including hellbrutes) and our terminators and our rubrics got more durable. And all is dust stacks with Armor of contempt as well.
Like seriously, a Tau army now trying to use out of LOS shooting against our rubrics or terminators in cover? lol They might as well give up. They will hardly scratch us now.
And with our MW output, we are hurt less by the same increase in durability that other marine armies got because Mortal wounds bypass armor anyway. Tsons got a very nice buff with the new dataslate.
Inferno boltguns and warpflamers did take a bit of a hit against other Armor of Contempt forces, but as has been pointed out soulreapers and (for Scarabs) khopesh swords can make up for that a little bit.
How much does this new rule help Magnus?
It doesn't sadly. While durability is an issue for him, the main issue is he really doesn't add anything worth taking. Ahriman and some SOT pretty much do his job better. Magnus is only going to be worth taking if he dropped to like 300 points or gets a new datasheet.
Speaking of Magnus. It's kind of telling when you look at the Tyranid dex that we're one of the few (?) balanced army of 9th. GW went to length to prevent us from healing Magnus while the Nids are over flowing with means to summon and heal models.
Nids have the same clause for regeneration stratagems/mechanics.
Hey all. I was wondering if someone could explain to me what makes a contemptor dread so much better than a hellbrute? They have very similar statlines with the dread coming up with 1 more wound, 2 more inches of movement, and one less attack, but the dread costs a good chunk more and loses you a command point to boot. He also loses the frenzy rule which isn't bad at all. Yet all I see are people taking contempts! Am I missing something?
Unreg1stered wrote: Hey all. I was wondering if someone could explain to me what makes a contemptor dread so much better than a hellbrute? They have very similar statlines with the dread coming up with 1 more wound, 2 more inches of movement, and one less attack, but the dread costs a good chunk more and loses you a command point to boot. He also loses the frenzy rule which isn't bad at all. Yet all I see are people taking contempts! Am I missing something?
Weapon choices, I believe, is what you're missing.
Kebabcito wrote: Match won against the top1 Astra Militarum this year in my country in the biggest tournament here.
He came with anti-chaos relic, spam cadia vengeance and lost relic of cadia for full rerolls in aoe.
My termis were invincible. I was playing 2 volkite, 20 termis, 3 characters and rubrics/spawns. To the last and stuff.
First turn he shoot everything into my termis in cover and did nothing. Second turn he used all his resources into my army and killed everything but the characters and the termis, for the third round it was too late for him to come back because my termies had enough time to cross the map and block everything in combat.
Termis in cover are invincible. We had real problems with anti-tank weaponry and charges. Now we are reducing AP and this will make the matches more long and with less burst spikes, which benefit us a lot.
Tanking armies like DG will benefit the most of this change but we have the mortal resource that will make us even stronger against DG, as they will have even more troubles killing us and mortal damage is untouched.
I let open the option of including in my army some IK instead of the 2 volkite + exalted with eghleighen, as we need antitank very hard
so, i had a fun 1500 point game against guard last night, my (and his) first game since the dataslate.
ARMIES
Our armies were somewhat extemporised, but for slightly different reasons. Mine was effectively a 1k list bulked up by proxied units doubling up the painted force, while his was a 2k list "cut down" to meet me in the middle at 1500 points. In this, he was somewhat helped by the data slate removing the cost of squad upgrades, which he reckoned let him add the equivalent of about 150-200 points of extras for "free".
5 scarabs, soulreaper+hellfire, rites of colalesance
5 scarabs, soulreaper+hellfire (held in reserve to deep strike)
tannzgor Shaman
Rhino
my secondaries: Psychic interrogation, bring them down, assassinate (i've just realised writing this that i shouldnt have been able to take both them together, but that was what was played, so *shrug* oh well)
His army, custom regt (jury rigged, gunnery experts):
2 tank commanders (one was the warlord, cant remember the trait, some damage reduction one)
6 infantry squads (freshly upgunned by the dataslate giving him free heavy/special weapons with a mix of Autocannons and lascannons)
2 platoon commanders
3 chimeras
2 leman russ.
His secondaries: abhor the witch (naturally), engage on all fronts, FOR THE EMPEROR!
Mission was The Scouring (nachmund mission 23).
THE GAME
He got first turn, and proceeded to delete 8 rubrics off one squad, and blow up the (thankfully empty) rhino, mainly for the VP it got him, as well as thin the tzanngor flocks down a bit. My first turn was a little meh, was able to warpfire a chimera he'd pushing into the center, then shoot the passengers down to a single mad-lad sergeant (passed his morale with a nat 1), as well as cut down a squad trying to action for 3VP.
His second turn was a PAINFUL one for me, as he got 2 leman russes forward, one on each flank (so all 4 quarters engage) blew the damaged rubrics away (2 vp for him), followed by one of the tzanngor squads, and both the infernal master and the shaman that had been hiding behind them (3 VP for the warlord, plus another 3 for the shaman, plus ANOTHER 3 VP for FOR THE EMPEROR!). Having just had my entire left flank shot away, at this point i was thinking i was likely to loose this, given the apparent firepower he had, but about now is when things started to swing my way.
He also brought another (empty) chimera up to the centre, but on my turn 2 I was able to both blow the chimera up, catapult my last two tzanngor into his mad lad sgt on the center objective (move+temporal surge+ charge= very long threat range), and clear away a point holding squad to put him down to just 1 objective held for his round start. I also brought my deep striking scarabs on, but basically used them to replace my left flank and hold the objective there.
Turn 3, he threw another squad onto a point, and in shooting, got the last of my tzanngor, then he concentrated no less than 3 tanks onto one of my scarabs units, who were stood out in the open on the objective...and managed to kill just 3 of them, thanks to armour of contempt (he got one bloke down to a single wound but rites of colesance healed him back to 3, plus the ever reliable cult of time resurrect spell to bring a termie back).
My go, I then throw my Rubics foreword onto the centre point (I already had the full 12 for "control more", but this solidified it), followed up by a spectacular psychic phase where I did no less than 13 mortal wounds into his warlord tank ace, all from Ahriman (doombolt for 3,MW plus a D3 for 3MW for the "d3 extra mortal wounds" cabal points ability, followed by gaze of hate getting 3MW, and a d6 smite for 4), which, combined with a single unrepaired chip wound form earlier, killed his warlord in a storm of witchfire and gleeful delight, and netted me a hefty 6VP for both assassinate and bring it down.
His turn 4 he holds NONE of the objectives, and he scrambles to get something onto points, and manages to get a squad on one and a tank on the other, and after another turn of concentrated fire form 3 tanks, manages to kill the weakened scarab squad (Unwavering phalanx, which i had finally remembered existed, was truly a godsend).
My turn 4, after another 12VP primary, I chip away at one tank and the last chimera (which is hiding in a ruin to try and deny me the VP), for limited effect but blow his objective holding squad (the 2nd to try and hold that position) off the table, leaving him at the start of turn 5 with just 1 objective held. At this point the guard player concedes (its like 22:45, and we both have work in the morning). We didn't do a full count of the VP, but it was at least 15-20VP in my favour.
My (and his) thoughts:
I now realise my secondaries picked were illegal, but neither of us caught that at the time. I'd likely have gone for "to the last" instead ( was mulling it at the time, but plopped for assassinate instead), which would have got me 5 VP for the one surviving scarab squad...which is a VP more than I actually got for assassinate, and he wasn't particularly conservative with his characters because of the threat of assassinate, so it didn't matter too much in the end.
Psychic Interrogation was a real workhorse for me this game, as i was able to just constantly cast it, first at his warlord, then on a platoon commander hiding behind a squad, which in the end forced him to move the commander away form the units it was supporting to try and deny me the VP. I think I got 9VP off it, but could have gotten 12 with ease. Against someone with a lot of characters and no deny the witch, it was really easy to spare a cast to get those VP.
Armour of contempt was ridiculously strong, especially on the scarabs. In 4 turns of gameplay, at no point did my Scarabs (who never had cover saves due to the layout not allowing it while objective camping) have to make an invunerable save. They were on 4+ or better the whole game, and so absorbed a stupid amount of firepower (the full, undivided attention of 3 leman russ tanks for 2 turns straight, and they ALMOST survived that!).
My first unit of rubrics died pretty early on, but the second squad was able to sit in cover on the centre objective, with Weaver of Fates giving them and effective 2+/4++ save (or 1+ effective against d1 weapons) and basically not get shot at all game, while scouring his objective holding infantry off the table, as my opponent decided that the scarabs were a more sensible target.
As said before, the free upgrades for the infantry squad freed up about 150-200 points for the Guard, which is not insubstantial.
We both forgot about hammer of the emperors auto-wounding on 6s until late in his turn 2 shooting, but it was reasonably useful. He said he was generating a few lasgun wounds more than normal, but his list wasnt built to exploit it properly (being a tank list with supporting infantry). talking about it while packing up, he reckoned that it could be powerful if you built around it, concentrating on high volume, lower strength fire to fish for 6s, and just try to bully though armour saves by sheer weight of dice. as it was, it was a nice enough boost to his shooting, but not overwhelming, and most of his damage output was still form the tanks and other "conventional" firepower units.
I tend to run Ahriman in a "boomstick" role with lots of witchfire spells, but this game has been his best showing as such. his mortal wounds blew up a russ and a chimera, and by doing so freed up the shooting to concentrate on clearing his infantry off objectives. Those 13MW were a bit of fluke in terms of lucky rolling, but still, taking a 14 wound tank form "paint scratched" to "burning hulk" was a hell of a swing, arguably the turning point of the game.
overall, a really fun and enjoyable game, with some funny moments, a few real swings, and a satisfying win for me!
Thanks for the write up. Yea I think TS and DG are the two armies that will really benefit from AoC as it stacks on our already pretty good defense. Personally I don't think AoC is going to rocket any marine army up to top tier, but I think this does balance the game better, although for TS I would rather lose AoC then get any point increases. I have not used the new rules yet as I am on an Eldar kick, and considering I just spent $1000 or so getting back into them I am going to play them for a while.
Also, hopefully for the next balance slate toward the end of the year I hope they give us a few improvements to some of the less used spells. I mean right now Time and Duplicity are the only 2 cults ever used, and there are 9. Changing things like giving full re-roll wounds (basically doom) to the Cult that is re-roll 1 to wound, or the power that lets you roll a D6 and replace a dice roll being turned into you just get a 6 to replace a dice roll would go a long way to making those two cults more viable (trust me Doom is awesome). Also a few of the base powers glowing up, like the -1 strengthen to shooting malediction also including a -1ap or damage, or the +6 inch to range including an extra -1 ap or extra shot, or the warp flame power being +1 strength to any inferno or warpfire weapon, not just warpfire. These small changes could really add some extra punch and maybe make it so not every TS army looks really similar (although part of that is the lack of datasheets in the book, like come on could we get another fast attack or two?).
You guys should definitely try out some Scarabs in the post AoC world. My friend has been playing more and more of them... out of Cult of Time. The things are impossible to shift, and unless you kill like 3... there's a good chance you did nothing to them. AoC+All is Dust is a REALLY powerful combination, and I'd argue it is the best interaction with the new rule.
Give it a whirl...
Honestly, short of bright/dark lances and non-psychic phase mortal wound spam... the things are nigh impossible to hurt.
I overcharged plasma and we both marveled at how useless it was. With the stratagem to reduce damage received by 1... it was effectively AP-1 1D on Terminators They laughed at my attempts. Didn't feel good, but man is it spicy! I was hoping to see a bit more from the internet community on the subject, just to see if my experience against you guys was just an outlier.
They now confirmed that Chaos armies will be able to take a dreadblade auxiliary detachment and keep pure codex bonuses. I like the new big knight model but did not want to start a knight army so this is perfect. Is anyone else excited to use this rule with TS? I think it could fill a big hole we have with high power anti-tank and/or adding a very strong melee option. Three wardogs in one detachment is also really good for the same reason as it basically allows us to take better vehicles for a CP tax. What are people's thoughts on using this? (assume the knights won't get access to strats etc.).
xeen wrote: Is anyone else excited to use this rule with TS?
I think it's utterly useless drivel foisted on us by GW to sell a few extra knights. No synergy, can't be buffed, no strats for it, there are better places to invest CP and points in my opinion.
xeen wrote: They now confirmed that Chaos armies will be able to take a dreadblade auxiliary detachment and keep pure codex bonuses. I like the new big knight model but did not want to start a knight army so this is perfect. Is anyone else excited to use this rule with TS? I think it could fill a big hole we have with high power anti-tank and/or adding a very strong melee option. Three wardogs in one detachment is also really good for the same reason as it basically allows us to take better vehicles for a CP tax. What are people's thoughts on using this? (assume the knights won't get access to strats etc.).
I am excited to try ! Although, these days, hellbrutes are looking better than ever with the armour of contempt buff. Cheap, yet effective. Not sure if the lone knight will get to use any strategems or such. Without any strateegems, relics and such, it will be effective. Visually, it would make an awesome lynchpin in the army though.
Chaos Knight Leaks are out and it doesn't look too bad!
While there is some stuff you can't take with a dreadblade there are still options to get a bit of customisation and keep Cabalistic Rituals.
With Tzeentch there is 1 favour that nets you a 4++ after you killed a total of 10 wounds or you could add a 5+++ Psychic power if you want to go defensive.
Warp Storm Discipline is ok with 1,2 good powers but nothing gamebreaking or essential.
Feels more like a flavour thing and I guess I'd rather go for the Favour that earns you a 4++ (melee & ranged!) & it also gets to do MW's on saving throws of 6 like the Kastelan Robots Shield.
It's 35 points for a Despoiler though.
Cheapest Dakka Despoiler with 2 guns is 475 points, adding another 20 if you take the same gun twice + the Favor of the Dark Gods Upgrades.
Most expensive loadout (2 Gatlings + Carapace Gun + Favor) goes up to 600.
Just reading through the possible combinations. Dreadblades get Fell Bonds which can be used to get Household or Daemonic Surges (+1 to wound sounds good here) as well but you can't get all combined.
I guess it depends on the possible combinations / sneaky relic / wl trait tricks (if any) if taking 1 Dreadblade is worth it, especially if you compare it to something like 3 Fiends / 2-3 Defilers / Vehicle / Daemon Engine of your choice you could take instead.
Maybe loosing Cabalistic Rituals for more Knights is an option as well, there is definitely plenty to toy around with.
I think triple helverin wardogs will be the best way to go dreadblade wise. Thousand Sons already have staying power and plentiful low/mid strength shooting and mortal wound output, so the big knights are less relevant on that basis. We're mostly looking for long range AT shooting - 3 Helverins cost about the same as 1 of the big knights but bring a lot more dakka to the table.
The thermal spear + chainsword loadout is IMO a trap, its avg damage output in shooting is generally lower than the Helverin loadout until it gets within 12" of a target, and its melee damage output against vehicles is more or less the same as the Helverins shooting damage output. It only really starts to beat the Helverin loadout once you're up against T8 targets but as the meta currently stands those aren't super common and we can spam enough mortal wounds to handle those types of targets where/when we need to (even then the Helverins ain't too shabby if they focus fire on such a target). It also doesn't bring much to the table melee-wise against more generalized targets with that sweep profile, you're looking at ~4.4 dead guardsmen or ~1.2 dead marines in melee (assuming the profile hasn't degraded by then) per wardog. A unit of 5 Chaos Spawn is ~40pts cheaper but will kill ~6.7 guardsmen or ~3.3 marines - and thats before you account for the benefits of mutated beyond reason or Fated Mutation or other buffs which can amp up the spawns ability dramatically. SOTs also outperform in melee, a unit of 5 will avg ~4.4 dead marines or ~6.8 guardsmen, so not really seeing any point in trying to sweep with that chainsword vs other tools already available to the faction. Its basically a marginally better multimelta helbrute that can choose between the fist and scourge profile each turn.
Does the terminator sorcerer have any place in the army? I've tried to fit him into a niche but it really seems like he's just a slightly more expensive sorcerer. He's not even usable in melee unless he wants to give up his combimelta for a khopesh.
I mean... its a Sorceror... but harder to kill (and an extra source of a meltagun in an army thats critically short on high powered spot-removal weapons). Also, swapping the Force stave for a Force Axe isn't a terrible play for melee, and lets you keep the combi-melta.
I have played the terminator sorcerer a few times as I have a nicely painted one. Basically he is not worth it. He is a bit more survivable but if your characters are being shot/attacked usually that means you are in a bad way all ready. The extra inferno bolster shots are ok but not worth the points. If you want to DS him it is ok but then you lose cast turn 1. The best load out I used was give him the battle psyker and replace the staff with the one that is -4 ap and he can be semi-decent killy. But even then he was not great and points are probably better invested elsewhere.
As said infernal master for buffs. I also use hellbrutes with LC or MM for AT. I also have a leviathan but he is more fun choice. (And converted to be TS so looks amazing).
Had 3 Games with AoC so far and I am hyped to play more TS again after a long time focussing on Orks & DG.
Have a tournament next month and I'm trying to do some fine tuning for my list.
Generally I love to play infantry heavy which happens to be quite solid right now!
Squads of 5 Rubrics with Soulreaper and Icon have been fantastic, as have of course Scarabs.
My core so far is:
That leaves a bit over 200 points which I am not 100% sure about.
I definitely want to go mono detachment, especially if the new CP rules kick in before the tournament.
Units I took for the remaining points have been the slot-free Termi Sorcerer with psi-action Relic and WL trait, Flamer Rubrics, Spawns and occasionally 1 vehicle of choice.
With nids on the rise I think Spawns might be a good cheap unit for screening and soaking up MW's.
Have been running a squad of 5 and 3 x 1 as well with both variants having it's pros and cons.
I think the orrey Relic is a great pick against nids and a few other things, so I was thinking a cheap Shaman as alternative to the slower Termi Sorcerer.
Flamer Rubrics have been varying from disappointing to fantastic and are a great unit to have in combination with Master Misinformator and Crystal. But I think a squad of 5 is enough as a backup tool to have especially for late game trickery and to keep the opponent castled up so you can't take away home Objectives or kill isolated characters. The output of a fully buffed squad of 10 flamers is pretty cool but they don't always get their points back. They are a good psychological tool to have though.
I might go for 10 + 10 + 5 Scarabs but I kinda prefer to have 1-2 more other utility tools at hand.
Single vehicles are ok but tend to get focused down fast and if their 1 shooting phase fails they did nothing.
Was thinking about a Mutalith which has some nice abilities and strats but sadly I have none painted.
Anyone used it recently?
Have been using a Daemon Prince now and then but since the other 3 HQs are set that means a 2 CP patrol tax.
I love the model which is quite solid but honestly I think the CP are too important, especially with the new CA incoming.
I guess my favourite right now is a Shaman and a few Spawns which means no flamers unless I make the 4th Rubric squad a Flamer Squad.
Other alternative would be a 5th Soulreaper / Icon Squad and ether a Shaman or 2-3 single Spawns.
Never seen one 
