I'm pretty excited about the changes in secondaries and the primary missions
Mostly, as my buddy uses lictors for retrieve data, and engade on a fronts and it's incredibly annoying and now he won't be able to do that lol.
I agree it would be weird to drop an army over a single release like this, but we aren’t talking about just one release. We’re talking about playing a faction for years and seeing it arbitrarily bounce all over the meta spectrum. Over time, you just get tired of it. Or at least that’s what’s happening to me.
I’m not currently a serious tournament player, though I have been. I actually won best general at the 40KUKGT a couple of times in previous editions and I went 5-0 at the last LGT I went to in 2019. I had a baby last year so haven’t had time for events (and nurgle intervened anyway) but I still know my way around a table.
I’ve got a couple of armies vaguely on the go: Crimson Fists, which I started at the beginning of 8th, and Necrons that started with Indomitus.
The Fists are widely regarded as the weakest marine faction. They were sort of ok in 8th and I could do respectfully well with them till their supplement dropped. Then for a brief time they did incredibly well, hosing armies off the field, until the nerf bat came for them and sent them right to the bottom of the hill. I’ve occasionally thought about trying to make a halfway decent list from them built around Kantor and Redemptors (not an awful combo but hardly stunning, but this update has made that list 30 points more expensive. Talk about kicking me while I’m down!
Meanwhile we have the necrons. Wow, what a ride! So far these guys have seen more rules updates than I’ve played games with them. I’m painting them up pretty slowly and every time I finish a unit (or get close to finishing it) it seems everything else gets buffs, leaving it behind. I’ve finished 20 reaper warriors and have 10 lychguard with shields on my desk, almost done. Both were already core and neither had their points drop, and neither have yet seen a table.
Meanwhile I’ve got a Tau army in storage that might just turn out to be incredibly powerful once their book is out.
Overall the feeling is that I can’t keep up and, even if I could, the reward for doing so isn’t really worth it. There are simply better games.
I’ve got a couple of younger cousins. When they were teenagers their parents bought them some 40K orks and marines. The one with orks lost every game so they decided it wasn’t worth the money or hassle, and stopped. I think about that quite a lot (often when GW releases a hopelessly unbalanced battle box or starter) because it must happen all the time. And maybe my cousins were right to quit all those years ago.
This situation is equally likely to happen even under a 'perfectly' balanced game though. A new player picking up something like Drukhari right now doesn't automatically get to win their first games just because that faction currently posts 60%+ win rates in a competitive environment. If they're up against more experienced players they're going to make the usual new player mistakes and may still lose. Then if GW manage to balance Drukhari in a future update and bring them in line with other faction winrates, new Drukhari players are even less likely to win initial games.
Further more, competitive rankings and faction balance comparisons are a result of an environment where all game rules are used to their fullest extent. How many brand new 40k players understand how to "play the mission" rather than just trying to kill enemy units? Even two equally skilled new players will get disjointed results if they're using factions where one has been successfully balanced around objective play or special rules over raw killing power. Think GSC versus Space Marines as an obvious example; the latter is far more forgiving of mistakes than the former.
That isn't an argument against improving game balance, just pointing out that the process doesn't help new players to the same extent people assume it would.
That’s all true of course. I do think balance would help new players but they’d still be new, the barriers to entry would still be high and they’d still make mistakes.
I do think it would help them if there weren’t the seriously bad units. I was really struck by the banshee release a while back, for example. It heist felt such a shame to bring them out while their rules were so awful.
I agree it would be weird to drop an army over a single release like this, but we aren’t talking about just one release. We’re talking about playing a faction for years and seeing it arbitrarily bounce all over the meta spectrum. Over time, you just get tired of it. Or at least that’s what’s happening to me.
Pretty much same here. Only thing that has kept me going is that I own several armies so when one army goes down in nerf flames I can pick up another(I expect my first army will have a rebound in the new CW release). However, as I grow older I feel less and less bothered to keep up with this game and have started looking elsewhere. Have a sizable Star Wars Legion force and MCP gangs, and I have been playtesting High Elves in One Page Rules which has been surprisingly fun. Also tempted to take a gander at LotR to scratch my fantasy itch.
Currently I probably play Crusade more than anything else and thankfully the PL have been relatively stable so if there are imbalances at least my playgroup can address that without much of a hitch.
Anyone want to guess why GW didn't address Ork Troops at all?
You have entire lists not even taking troops choices because of how bad they are and yet GW didn't give them a price cut or some incentive to make them at least usable.
SemperMortis wrote: Anyone want to guess why GW didn't address Ork Troops at all?
Probably because at the time they wrote the book, it was too close to the release of the ork codex to determine anything with actual data.
Dark gods know what lead to the Custodes decisions though. I can only assume they sent the wrong codex draft to the printer, and this was the only way to fix it.
drbored wrote: What an awful book. Points changes that should have been free, rules updates that should have been free, and missions that are just more of the same with slightly different maps for the deployment and objective.
And now they're going to release them twice a year!
So they ask a "measly" 38 CHF from me. Or 36.76 Euro or
41.70 Dollar
for 14 CHF more i can get the ork commandos, get 10 really nice models i can use over multiple editions of this game, can build, get bits to build more and paint....
On the point of commandos, time to hoist a sneaky grinning ork and start singing orky shanties, because for those minescule changes and some new missions, yeah ... nope.
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SemperMortis wrote: Anyone want to guess why GW didn't address Ork Troops at all?
You have entire lists not even taking troops choices because of how bad they are and yet GW didn't give them a price cut or some incentive to make them at least usable.
SemperMortis wrote: Anyone want to guess why GW didn't address Ork Troops at all?
You have entire lists not even taking troops choices because of how bad they are and yet GW didn't give them a price cut or some incentive to make them at least usable.
T5 is really strong i heard.
Gotta be honest, I was petrified when they announced T5 that they were going to nerf boyz so hard that T5 would be irrelevant. Turns out I was right
Lets assume 2 month lead time to write rules and send to printer. Orkz except for about the first month haven't been using troops pretty much at all. So why the hell would they not fix the biggest glaring problem with the ork codex, that being that NONE of our troops choices are worth taking.
SemperMortis wrote: Anyone want to guess why GW didn't address Ork Troops at all?
You have entire lists not even taking troops choices because of how bad they are and yet GW didn't give them a price cut or some incentive to make them at least usable.
T5 is really strong i heard.
Gotta be honest, I was petrified when they announced T5 that they were going to nerf boyz so hard that T5 would be irrelevant. Turns out I was right
Lets assume 2 month lead time to write rules and send to printer. Orkz except for about the first month haven't been using troops pretty much at all. So why the hell would they not fix the biggest glaring problem with the ork codex, that being that NONE of our troops choices are worth taking.
As anyone with printing industry knowledge basically can attest... these have been basically already been done 6 months ago, with leadup time, maybee 7-8 months ago.
so basically they took a shotgun into the dark night to shoot a molehill in a forrest. And they didn't bring flashlights
Or atleast that is what their approach seems to be.
Meanwhile after testing my GSC against my own orks... t5 became even more irrelevant Not that GSC didn't need a buff, but thanks to the wounding table being still several chromosomes short of being a functional piece of this game...that will remain that way...
ION enjoy 12 ppm infil boyzs.
CKO wrote: I think making the game competitive has proven to be profitable. That is why we see the type of changes GW is making.
Nerfing DG into the ground while doing nothing to Dark Eldar is "making the game competitive"? The problem is they suck at balancing things and insist on an outdated way to sell their rules when digital is the only way that makes sense for frequent updates.
As anyone with printing industry knowledge basically can attest... these have been basically already been done 6 months ago, with leadup time, maybee 7-8 months ago.
so basically they took a shotgun into the dark night to shoot a molehill in a forrest. And they didn't bring flashlights
Or atleast that is what their approach seems to be.
Meanwhile after testing my GSC against my own orks... t5 became even more irrelevant Not that GSC didn't need a buff, but thanks to the wounding table being still several chromosomes short of being a functional piece of this game...that will remain that way...
ION enjoy 12 ppm infil boyzs.
That just isn't true though. It does not take 6 months to print books. Major publishers can push out books in weeks let alone months and believe it or not but GW is a massive company that falls into that category now.
I can prove that lead time false with just common sense based on this release. Why nerf Squigbuggies at all if it was printed 6 months ago? For reference, 6 months ago was BEFORE the ork codex got released. So they were able to sneak in nerfs to the best competing units for orkz that were problematic since the codex was released in September (4 months ago) so clearly they had the ability to fix crap units in the ork codex and chose not to.
So gathering information from other places, everything except the new missions and secondaries has been HARSHLY panned by the majority of people.
Consensus is that it's overpriced, especially for something with a 6 month shelf life. The nerfs to DG, Orkz, Sisters, Chaos Daemons, and weirdly Guard are exceptionally dumb and their paltry attempt to raise units up were more insult than anything.
GW have to
A) Discuss what they want in the book.
B) Finalise every aspect of the book.
C) Print it.
D) Get it shipped all around the world.
E) Get it available in every shop ahead of release. (Also have advanced copies, stuff for the potato cameras etc etc).
From finishing off B I think you could maybe get things done in 4 months - but it wouldn't give you much scope if anything went wrong - and in the current circumstances, things are going wrong with international shipping all the time.
I don't think its unreasonable that A) is concluding 6 months before release - if not considerably before.
I suspect with Orks this just means they knew they'd dun goofed with Squigbuggies etc but that Codex went to print at some point in Q1 2021. Possibly even earlier. Quite why they didn't day 1 FAQ nerf them like say Raiders isn't clear, but maybe they just didn't want to.
Anyway I hope this scarcely sells and is such a flop GW rethink the whole thing. The idea people are going to meet a £50 a year tax just to play 40k is insane.
That just isn't true though. It does not take 6 months to print books. Major publishers can push out books in weeks let alone months and believe it or not but GW is a massive company that falls into that category now.
are they on the level of a major publisher?
and one thing you have to consider is that they don't have printers all over the world, so need to ship things around to be in the stores for release
4 months is the best I could guess as lead time from going to the printers to worldwide release
Tyel wrote: GW have to
A) Discuss what they want in the book.
B) Finalise every aspect of the book.
C) Print it.
D) Get it shipped all around the world.
E) Get it available in every shop ahead of release. (Also have advanced copies, stuff for the potato cameras etc etc).
From finishing off B I think you could maybe get things done in 4 months - but it wouldn't give you much scope if anything went wrong - and in the current circumstances, things are going wrong with international shipping all the time.
I don't think its unreasonable that A) is concluding 6 months before release - if not considerably before.
I suspect with Orks this just means they knew they'd dun goofed with Squigbuggies etc but that Codex went to print at some point in Q1 2021. Possibly even earlier. Quite why they didn't day 1 FAQ nerf them like say Raiders isn't clear, but maybe they just didn't want to.
Anyway I hope this scarcely sells and is such a flop GW rethink the whole thing. The idea people are going to meet a £50 a year tax just to play 40k is insane.
I have no idea where you guys are pulling these numbers from. With my absolutely garbage printer I can print a copy of CA in a minute? You don't think a major print company couldn't bang out a couple hundred thousand to a million a day? You are out of your minds, as far as shipping worldwide? It takes 15-30 days to ship around the world, assuming GW doesn't just use local printers in those host countries or host areas, IE print in Germany distribute to most of Europe as opposed to printing in China and shipping around the world. DOUBLE that time and you are still talking about 2 months not 6+
And again, Orkz had their competitive units nerfed into the ground, this from the same company that didn't realize that the Stompa was going to be crap for 20+ years, so sorry if I don't believe them to have enough foresight to predict The Squig buggy and kommandos would be competitive this edition
SemperMortis wrote: I have no idea where you guys are pulling these numbers from. With my absolutely garbage printer I can print a copy of CA in a minute? You don't think a major print company couldn't bang out a couple hundred thousand to a million a day? You are out of your minds, as far as shipping worldwide? It takes 15-30 days to ship around the world, assuming GW doesn't just use local printers in those host countries or host areas, IE print in Germany distribute to most of Europe as opposed to printing in China and shipping around the world. DOUBLE that time and you are still talking about 2 months not 6+
I import goods for a living and I can assure you the time necessary to bring goods to market by container is measured in months, not weeks. And that is from the point of completed materials. Before that you have to add in production time. I wouldn't be at all surprised if it takes GW 4-6 months from finalized copy to be ready to release a book for sale.
SemperMortis wrote: I have no idea where you guys are pulling these numbers from. With my absolutely garbage printer I can print a copy of CA in a minute? You don't think a major print company couldn't bang out a couple hundred thousand to a million a day? You are out of your minds, as far as shipping worldwide? It takes 15-30 days to ship around the world, assuming GW doesn't just use local printers in those host countries or host areas, IE print in Germany distribute to most of Europe as opposed to printing in China and shipping around the world. DOUBLE that time and you are still talking about 2 months not 6+
I import goods for a living and I can assure you the time necessary to bring goods to market by container is measured in months, not weeks. And that is from the point of completed materials. Before that you have to add in production time. I wouldn't be at all surprised if it takes GW 4-6 months from finalized copy to be ready to release a book for sale.
One of my closest friends is a Merchant Marine He routinely travels to Asia from the Pacific Northwest (Seattle/Tacoma) on big cargo ships. His two-way trip usually took 45-55 days, i know because when I was stuck out on that coast I would grab a beer with him when he pulled into harbor. SO no, if it takes 4-6 months for a company to print a book and ship it, then they fail as a company
So 15-30 days to traverse the pacific (biggest ocean) on a cargo ship. So that leaves MONTHS to print and distribute the book. So no, I don't believe it takes them 4-6 months to write new rules and print them and ship them around the world...and that again is only if they are using a SINGLE print location which would be a bit silly unless that print location is dirt cheap and the shipping costs aren't going to just artificially destroy the price...(Sorry australia)
SemperMortis wrote: I have no idea where you guys are pulling these numbers from. With my absolutely garbage printer I can print a copy of CA in a minute? You don't think a major print company couldn't bang out a couple hundred thousand to a million a day? You are out of your minds, as far as shipping worldwide? It takes 15-30 days to ship around the world, assuming GW doesn't just use local printers in those host countries or host areas, IE print in Germany distribute to most of Europe as opposed to printing in China and shipping around the world. DOUBLE that time and you are still talking about 2 months not 6+
I import goods for a living and I can assure you the time necessary to bring goods to market by container is measured in months, not weeks. And that is from the point of completed materials. Before that you have to add in production time. I wouldn't be at all surprised if it takes GW 4-6 months from finalized copy to be ready to release a book for sale.
Exactly. Heck before Covid and the shipping crisis Andy Hoare told us it took a year for a House of book to go to the printers and the be ready for release! Now with the shipping crisis, who knows, but these books are printed in China and that takes a lot of time - never mind the development time.
Overall, this is a bizarre form of release if it is a "balance"; instead it's "out of date" compared to our lived experiences - perhaps by as much as a year if GW use the same printing schedule as AH refers to in the video i linked to, perhaps a smaller amount of time for an order of this scale (do you think they print 10000 of these, 20000, 50000, 100000, etc)?
Ultimately the point is that balance updates like these should not be done on an archaic form of paper.
If they really want to charge us for these balance updates then just make it part of the Warhammer+ subscription. It would probably even help them sell a few subs instead of this current fiasco.
SemperMortis wrote: I have no idea where you guys are pulling these numbers from. With my absolutely garbage printer I can print a copy of CA in a minute? You don't think a major print company couldn't bang out a couple hundred thousand to a million a day? You are out of your minds, as far as shipping worldwide? It takes 15-30 days to ship around the world, assuming GW doesn't just use local printers in those host countries or host areas, IE print in Germany distribute to most of Europe as opposed to printing in China and shipping around the world. DOUBLE that time and you are still talking about 2 months not 6+
I import goods for a living and I can assure you the time necessary to bring goods to market by container is measured in months, not weeks. And that is from the point of completed materials. Before that you have to add in production time. I wouldn't be at all surprised if it takes GW 4-6 months from finalized copy to be ready to release a book for sale.
One of my closest friends is a Merchant Marine He routinely travels to Asia from the Pacific Northwest (Seattle/Tacoma) on big cargo ships. His two-way trip usually took 45-55 days, i know because when I was stuck out on that coast I would grab a beer with him when he pulled into harbor. SO no, if it takes 4-6 months for a company to print a book and ship it, then they fail as a company
So 15-30 days to traverse the pacific (biggest ocean) on a cargo ship. So that leaves MONTHS to print and distribute the book. So no, I don't believe it takes them 4-6 months to write new rules and print them and ship them around the world...and that again is only if they are using a SINGLE print location which would be a bit silly unless that print location is dirt cheap and the shipping costs aren't going to just artificially destroy the price...(Sorry australia)
I work in production, import, export and have a lot of business knowledge and just no. A perfectly managed (people issues such as absences, process, policy, inter-personal, delivery checks, distribution network) with no transport (weather is a thing, criminals), trade (borders, processing, changing legislation, docking ports, unloading/loading are things), admin (right paperwork at the right time both internal and external), quality (test, check, feedback and correct), communication (time zones, language barriers, memory) or tech issues (scanners, machinery, computers, ERP software)... sure.
A normal, realistic organisation in this reality on earth... no. So much can and will go wrong.
SemperMortis wrote: Anyone want to guess why GW didn't address Ork Troops at all?
You have entire lists not even taking troops choices because of how bad they are and yet GW didn't give them a price cut or some incentive to make them at least usable.
T5 is really strong i heard.
Gotta be honest, I was petrified when they announced T5 that they were going to nerf boyz so hard that T5 would be irrelevant. Turns out I was right
Lets assume 2 month lead time to write rules and send to printer. Orkz except for about the first month haven't been using troops pretty much at all. So why the hell would they not fix the biggest glaring problem with the ork codex, that being that NONE of our troops choices are worth taking.
Here's my garbage take.
Wracks.
M7 S3 T4 A2, 6++/5+++, AP1 & Poison
Snagga Boyz.
M5 S5 T5 A2, 6++, AP1, extra attack, & +1 to hit vs VEH/MON, W2 Nob
Turn 2 Advance and Charge vs Waaagh Advance and Charge
Turn 3 +1 to hit vs Waaagh +1A for two turns
For 80 points you can make Wracks T5.
For 80 to 85 points you can give Boyz 6++ or 6+++.
For 20 Wracks and a Haemonculus you can get 16 to 17 Snaggas and a Painboy. Snaggas are going to hit harder in melee and have a close enough durability profile.
20 Wracks are commonly used in Thicc City. They Webway for 1CP. Orks can do the same for 2CP.
T5 matters. There is a very low volume of S6 shooting in most lists.
Drukhari on the whole have a lot of really good strats that push them over the edge. You're not going to run multiple hordes of Boyz, but I bet you could run a 19 man in a BW with a Painboy and cause a significant amount of disruption. Orks also have super killy characters and cheap useful shooting.
Maybe Boyz will get to 8 points, but they're never going lower than that.
SemperMortis wrote: Anyone want to guess why GW didn't address Ork Troops at all?
You have entire lists not even taking troops choices because of how bad they are and yet GW didn't give them a price cut or some incentive to make them at least usable.
T5 is really strong i heard.
Gotta be honest, I was petrified when they announced T5 that they were going to nerf boyz so hard that T5 would be irrelevant. Turns out I was right
Lets assume 2 month lead time to write rules and send to printer. Orkz except for about the first month haven't been using troops pretty much at all. So why the hell would they not fix the biggest glaring problem with the ork codex, that being that NONE of our troops choices are worth taking.
Here's my garbage take.
Wracks.
M7 S3 T4 A2, 6++/5+++, AP1 & Poison
Snagga Boyz.
M5 S5 T5 A2, 6++, AP1, extra attack, & +1 to hit vs VEH/MON, W2 Nob
Turn 2 Advance and Charge vs Waaagh Advance and Charge
Turn 3 +1 to hit vs Waaagh +1A for two turns
For 80 points you can make Wracks T5.
For 80 to 85 points you can give Boyz 6++ or 6+++.
For 20 Wracks and a Haemonculus you can get 16 to 17 Snaggas and a Painboy. Snaggas are going to hit harder in melee and have a close enough durability profile.
20 Wracks are commonly used in Thicc City. They Webway for 1CP. Orks can do the same for 2CP.
T5 matters. There is a very low volume of S6 shooting in most lists.
Drukhari on the whole have a lot of really good strats that push them over the edge. You're not going to run multiple hordes of Boyz, but I bet you could run a 19 man in a BW with a Painboy and cause a significant amount of disruption. Orks also have super killy characters and cheap useful shooting.
Maybe Boyz will get to 8 points, but they're never going lower than that.
Boyz would be useless at 7ppm LOL.
What happens to wracks when they lose 4 models? to they run away most of the time and lose 20% of their mob to morale? Do they have reliable/cheap transports? Do they have plethora of buffs worth using on them? I can keep going. Boyz suck and nothing is going to change that except a rules change but that isn't going to happen likely this edition.
What happens to wracks when they lose 4 models? to they run away most of the time and lose 20% of their mob to morale? Do they have reliable/cheap transports? Do they have plethora of buffs worth using on them? I can keep going. Boyz suck and nothing is going to change that except a rules change but that isn't going to happen likely this edition.
I'd not even dare field a snagga boy, atm because they have the same issues as boys but are somehow more expensive...
SemperMortis wrote: Anyone want to guess why GW didn't address Ork Troops at all?
You have entire lists not even taking troops choices because of how bad they are and yet GW didn't give them a price cut or some incentive to make them at least usable.
T5 is really strong i heard.
Gotta be honest, I was petrified when they announced T5 that they were going to nerf boyz so hard that T5 would be irrelevant. Turns out I was right
Lets assume 2 month lead time to write rules and send to printer. Orkz except for about the first month haven't been using troops pretty much at all. So why the hell would they not fix the biggest glaring problem with the ork codex, that being that NONE of our troops choices are worth taking.
Here's my garbage take.
Wracks.
M7 S3 T4 A2, 6++/5+++, AP1 & Poison
Snagga Boyz.
M5 S5 T5 A2, 6++, AP1, extra attack, & +1 to hit vs VEH/MON, W2 Nob
Turn 2 Advance and Charge vs Waaagh Advance and Charge
Turn 3 +1 to hit vs Waaagh +1A for two turns
For 80 points you can make Wracks T5.
For 80 to 85 points you can give Boyz 6++ or 6+++.
For 20 Wracks and a Haemonculus you can get 16 to 17 Snaggas and a Painboy. Snaggas are going to hit harder in melee and have a close enough durability profile.
20 Wracks are commonly used in Thicc City. They Webway for 1CP. Orks can do the same for 2CP.
T5 matters. There is a very low volume of S6 shooting in most lists.
Drukhari on the whole have a lot of really good strats that push them over the edge. You're not going to run multiple hordes of Boyz, but I bet you could run a 19 man in a BW with a Painboy and cause a significant amount of disruption. Orks also have super killy characters and cheap useful shooting.
Maybe Boyz will get to 8 points, but they're never going lower than that.
Boyz would be useless at 7ppm LOL.
What happens to wracks when they lose 4 models? to they run away most of the time and lose 20% of their mob to morale? Do they have reliable/cheap transports? Do they have plethora of buffs worth using on them? I can keep going. Boyz suck and nothing is going to change that except a rules change but that isn't going to happen likely this edition.
Wracks are only 1 LD higher then the boys and the same exact attrition roll would apply to them, so thats basically a none issue that you listed.
You also have ZERO cheap transport options to transport the large wrack unit unless you think a tantalus is cheap, at which point I'd just point back at the BW. So yea, a lot of hilariously out of wack comparisons happening in bad faith.
Famous last words, but I think Thicc City relied on the compounding defensive bonuses on Talos and to a degree Grots plus the offensive power of DTed Cronos (who are already quite resilient for the points anyway). The last of which will be lot less damaging without DT - although they'll still be very tough for the points with Artisans of Flesh if someone were to try it. I suspect the list will see a more radical change though.
Its hard to imagine an Ork list that would work in the same sort of way. But maybe I lack imagination - but its very hard when all the units you'd fancy trying to slot in have been nerfed.
Basically I don't think Thicc City is relying on that one big unit of Wracks - and I think some variants haven't bothered with it as a result. You could I guess have one unit of Boyz or Boyz+1 but... its not obvious this is going to help much.
Wracks are only 1 LD higher then the boys and the same exact attrition roll would apply to them, so thats basically a none issue that you listed.
You also have ZERO cheap transport options to transport the large wrack unit unless you think a tantalus is cheap, at which point I'd just point back at the BW. So yea, a lot of hilariously out of wack comparisons happening in bad faith.
Size of average Wrack Unit in 40kstats is *checks notes....... 5 in fact almost all of them were units of 5. So leadership 8 means you have to lose 80% of the unit to have a 33% chance of failing morale. The biggest size I saw was 10 and it was super rare. And at 10 you have to lose 5 to have a 50% chance of failing morale. I don't play DE so please tell me, is there any reason to take more than 5? Because you aren't taking Wracks for their melee abilities, your taking them to spam Liquifiers which are super effective against most targets and the only plausible reason I can see anyone taking 10 is because they desperately wanted that 3rd liquifier gun in the squad ...which doesn't make sense because you could just take an extra squad for the same price and then you get more bang for your buck.
As far as "Cheap" transports...raiders lol, yeah they got "nerfed" to 105pts but even at that price they are a steal. They are 35pts more than a trukk, they are
faster, better WS and better BS (1 and 2 respectively) same S and T, same wounds, same attacks, +1 leadership and most importantly, has an inbuilt 5+ invuln save compared to Ramshackle for the Trukk. Ohh, and of course it also comes standard with a Melee weapon (+1S and -1AP) AND has a Dark Lance compared to the Trukk's big shoota. Ohh also forgot, it has fly
So comparing Wracks melee ability to that of boyz is a bit silly since those boyz are only good in CC where as the wracks are good in CC but better using their Liquifiers. And since there is no benefit that I am aware of to taking large mobz of Wracks there is no point not to take them in MSU 5 man squads where they are effectively immune to Morale. Again, I don't play DE so please correct anything you see as incorrect.
What happens to wracks when they lose 4 models? to they run away most of the time and lose 20% of their mob to morale? Do they have reliable/cheap transports? Do they have plethora of buffs worth using on them? I can keep going. Boyz suck and nothing is going to change that except a rules change but that isn't going to happen likely this edition.
I'd not even dare field a snagga boy, atm because they have the same issues as boys but are somehow more expensive...
You take snagga because you want killrigs and it means you don’t need to buy another transport.
If you don’t take killrigs you take trukk boys so they can actually do something. And if you don’t want trukk boys you take an overpriced unit of orrible grots.
Boys would be fine at -1pts but still not good. They butchered morale for orks by removing all abilities that helped morale. No more mob rule (new one is useless), no more breakin eads (overpriced strat) and not only do blasts make it easier to kill larger units Gw removed the boy ability that gave them an extra atk and a any reason to take large units and then raised the cost of boys. They really went out of thier way to make boys bad this edition. And grots omg worst 5pt unit in game by far.
What happens to wracks when they lose 4 models? to they run away most of the time and lose 20% of their mob to morale? Do they have reliable/cheap transports? Do they have plethora of buffs worth using on them? I can keep going. Boyz suck and nothing is going to change that except a rules change but that isn't going to happen likely this edition.
I'd not even dare field a snagga boy, atm because they have the same issues as boys but are somehow more expensive...
Well, yes and no. Unlike boyz, Snagga boyz actually have stratagems to support them, and the extra point of strength allows them to kill relevant amounts rank and file infantry while putting a dent in some things that boyz can't really touch. While the 6++ isn't awesome, it does help as well. On the downside, they don't even get a proper PK.
If they were to lose a point or two, they might actually be good enough.
Wracks also work in cheap squads of 5. Boyz would be way more common if their min squad was 5.
The 80 points tax from haemonculus isn't really a tax since you're required to take an haemonculus if you want coven stuff, unless you select Drazhar instead. And he massively buffs the pain engines as well, which are very good units. A painboy is a pure useless tax instead, that should never see the table as it currently is.
The sad reality of ork troops is that a player might choose beastnaggas if he wants kill rigs (although they're also pretty legit as empty tanks), ork boyz if he wants to rely on the trukk boyz combo (which is only one per detachment) or gretchins if he doesn't want to invest more than 50 points on troops. That's it, there are no other combinations if we're talking about optimized armies, not even tournament level lists.
Thicc City is usually something like the list Siegler ran at the Austin GT - although there have been various variants in the month since.
Something like this:
Patrol - Artists of Flesh (-1 damage).
Haemonculus
Big unit of wracks (17 in this case)
5 man unit of wracks.
5 man unit of wracks.
2*4 Grotesques.
2*2 Talos.
Patrol - Dark Technomancers
Succubus
5 Wracks
2*3 Cronos
Patrol - Kabal of the Black Heart
Archon
Court of the Archon
5 Wracks
5 Mandrakes
There's no transports.
The basic argument is that a blob of Boyz (or Snaggas) should be able to do what that big blob of Wracks does. Which might be true - but I'm not sure you have stand ins for everything else.
Tyel wrote: The basic argument is that a blob of Boyz (or Snaggas) should be able to do what that big blob of Wracks does.
Wait, what? Are you serious?
Is there even a single thing that boyz can do that wracks aren't vastly superior at?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just at a first glance - better melee, better shooting, faster, better save, FNP, lower minimum model count, better leadership, multiple good and cheap stratagems...
And all that before even considering a coven to put them even further apart from boyz.
Give that datasheet to boyz, and I'll gladly pay 11 points per model.
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So that's how we'll get the two updated Marine datasheets apparently.
Tyel wrote: The basic argument is that a blob of Boyz (or Snaggas) should be able to do what that big blob of Wracks does.
Wait, what? Are you serious?
Is there even a single thing that boyz can do that wracks aren't vastly superior at?
I think you need to consider what Daed was saying - comparing a very specific use of Wracks in a big unit - i.e. 17, 20 strong.
I agree Wracks are better in numerous ways you mention - but saying "wracks are run in 5 man units" or "wracks get transports" isn't really the killing blow when we are talking about a big unit being run in a GT winning list.
These Wracks aren't really bringing shooting weapons (I think they had one Ossefactor), so that's not it either. I'd have thought assault was much of a wash - sure poison attacks and eventually WS2+, but the Boyz/Snaggas have 3 attacks base, Snaggas are S5 base too. The Wracks have 1 more morale - but if you kill a decent number of them they are still going to be failing 5 times in 6 and a bunch will run off.
I'd have thought the real issue is that 8 points for T4/6+/5++ is incredible toughness - and Orks can't really match it. The -1 damage potential from Artists of Flesh is limited due to only having 1 wound, but does help save models versus 2 damage attacks. On paper you could waddle a bunch of say Snaggas up the table with a pocket painboy or painboss - but that's a lot of points for T5 6+/6++.
You could tellyporta to match webway portal - but then its some T5/6++ bodies (or boys with no invul) trying to deny an objective versus more T4/6++/5+++ bodies, which just seems much worse versus a whole range of weapon types (possibly all of them). And its unclear this synergises as well with whatever else you are planning on bringing. Hence why Ork players have not really done this after the first couple of weeks of experimentation.
Gee, for a book that has Abaddon on the cover and talks a lot about him in the hype article, there sure is a big heap of nothing for chaos players in that!
Not that I'm surprised, but still felt it should be pointed out.
I haven't got any of these 9th ed books yet because I keep forgetting, but how does the Crusade stuff work? The campaign is in Vigilus Alone but then there's also the mission pack? My brain needs help.
Fergie0044 wrote: Gee, for a book that has Abaddon on the cover and talks a lot about him in the hype article, there sure is a big heap of nothing for chaos players in that!
Not that I'm surprised, but still felt it should be pointed out.
Ruleswise, certainly.
Can't help but notice "The Despoiler's Dreadkin" in the lore section though...
Tyel wrote: The basic argument is that a blob of Boyz (or Snaggas) should be able to do what that big blob of Wracks does.
Wait, what? Are you serious?
Is there even a single thing that boyz can do that wracks aren't vastly superior at?
I think you need to consider what Daed was saying - comparing a very specific use of Wracks in a big unit - i.e. 17, 20 strong.
I agree Wracks are better in numerous ways you mention - but saying "wracks are run in 5 man units" or "wracks get transports" isn't really the killing blow when we are talking about a big unit being run in a GT winning list.
These Wracks aren't really bringing shooting weapons (I think they had one Ossefactor), so that's not it either. I'd have thought assault was much of a wash - sure poison attacks and eventually WS2+, but the Boyz/Snaggas have 3 attacks base, Snaggas are S5 base too. The Wracks have 1 more morale - but if you kill a decent number of them they are still going to be failing 5 times in 6 and a bunch will run off.
I'd have thought the real issue is that 8 points for T4/6+/5++ is incredible toughness - and Orks can't really match it. The -1 damage potential from Artists of Flesh is limited due to only having 1 wound, but does help save models versus 2 damage attacks. On paper you could waddle a bunch of say Snaggas up the table with a pocket painboy or painboss - but that's a lot of points for T5 6+/6++.
You could tellyporta to match webway portal - but then its some T5/6++ bodies (or boys with no invul) trying to deny an objective versus more T4/6++/5+++ bodies, which just seems much worse versus a whole range of weapon types (possibly all of them). And its unclear this synergises as well with whatever else you are planning on bringing. Hence why Ork players have not really done this after the first couple of weeks of experimentation.
There is play. Snaggas beat Wracks in a few areas. Yes, Wracks are not THE defining part of Thicc City, but they contribute extensively, because they're the ones left when you take out the Talos.
3x10 Snaggas and 1x10 Boyz just went 8-0 so at the very least they aren't a hinderance and I don't imagine he used them as just action monkeys when he could have spent less on regulard boyz and not made the regular boyz into trukk boyz.
And it's almost built like Thicc City with Ghaz and two Rigs, but I believe this list is now over points, so you'd have to squeeze something out.
I already pointed this out in the sisters thread but unless Bloody Rose gets like...30+stratagems, they used 4-5 pages of the rules section for army photos.
Which just reinforces my decision to never buy campain books.
2 pages for a codex supplement...5 pages for photos of models I can look at on my own shelf.
ERJAK wrote: I already pointed this out in the sisters thread but unless Bloody Rose gets like...30+stratagems, they used 4-5 pages of the rules section for army photos.
Which just reinforces my decision to never buy campain books.
2 pages for a codex supplement...5 pages for photos of models I can look at on my own shelf.
A wise decision indeed. And it would be wise not to waste $40 on this either. CSM: 12 PPM, Warp Talons: 20 PPM. *marks in codex with pen*. There, done. Look, I just saved myself $40.
And thanks for all of the "buffs" for vehicles gw. Let's see, the "buffs" for CSM vehicles = +15 PPM for the KLOS. Wow, awesome. Thanks. And a 30W, 2+ save Astraeus with two void shields is now 10 points cheaper than a 26W 3+ save quad sponson Baneblade. Such balance.
Daedalus81 wrote: There is play. Snaggas beat Wracks in a few areas. Yes, Wracks are not THE defining part of Thicc City, but they contribute extensively, because they're the ones left when you take out the Talos.
3x10 Snaggas and 1x10 Boyz just went 8-0 so at the very least they aren't a hinderance and I don't imagine he used them as just action monkeys when he could have spent less on regulard boyz and not made the regular boyz into trukk boyz.
And it's almost built like Thicc City with Ghaz and two Rigs, but I believe this list is now over points, so you'd have to squeeze something out.
If you cut the useless boyz from that list down to a minimum 1-2 and replace them with units that do have a purpose, you just have the goff tempo build.
Thrakka also isn't anything but a fun unit, he is too expensive.
Using beast snaggas as wracks is nonsense for two reaons - wracks are a lot faster, fight better due to extra AP and special weapons, have relevant shooting and you can just dump 3 CP on them to get re-roll everything.
That you are even trying to argue that wracks are remotely in the same league as ork troops is mind-blowing. How can you serious believe that?
"Ok so here is a bunch of info I managed to come by from secure sources: CSM doctrine:
exact same thing as SM, except replace +1AP with exploding 6s (unmodified hits)
Icons:
vengeance +1 CA wrath +1ap melee
flame +1ap shooting
excess +1 to hit melee
despair 6s to hit = autowound
All legions are getting 6 WT, 8 relics & 8 stratagems
Legion traits: NL -2LD & -1CA @ 9''
+1 to advance & +1 to charges
When using a pistol/assault/melee vs below half strenght unit or LD 6 and below = +1 to wound
IW Ignores cover
Reduce ap1/2 by 1
Heavy/grenade vs vehicules/buildings/units in cover = +1 to wound
WB
Charges/HI = reroll hits
5+++ vs MW When using a pistol/assault/melee = 6s to wound cause 1MW (capped @ 3MW per unit)
BL
ignore CA +1 to hit when charge or shoot closest unit
rapid fire/assault/pistol = exploding 5s (hit)
EC (4chain leak, not from my sources)
in the book
have a way of consistently hitting on 2s (even with thunder hammers)
WE Not in the codex
Datasheet info: Chosen
3w
can use TH
Mutilators
no longer in the book
Warp talon
2w
lost cancel overwatch
gained no fallback
5a (these are total with claws)
Raptors
still have the -1LD aura
+2a
Obliterators
can shoot units that are in engagement range with them (like wraithguard)
in melee they have powerfists without the -1 to hit
3 different shooting profiles
Havocs
exactly the same as right now but 2w
Stratagems
something to ignore invuls (4chan leak, so take with a grain of salt, leak said EC chosen could destory custodes hitting with TH on a 2+ and with strat ignore invul saves)
NL deepstrike strat for jump packs, DS turn 1
NL vox scream disables AURAS
Other: IW ectoplasma forgefiend can hit on 2+ and does flat 4 damage
"Ok so here is a bunch of info I managed to come by from secure sources: CSM doctrine:
exact same thing as SM, except replace +1AP with exploding 6s (unmodified hits)
Icons:
vengeance +1 CA wrath +1ap melee
flame +1ap shooting
excess +1 to hit melee
despair 6s to hit = autowound
All legions are getting 6 WT, 8 relics & 8 stratagems
Legion traits: NL -2LD & -1CA @ 9''
+1 to advance & +1 to charges
When using a pistol/assault/melee vs below half strenght unit or LD 6 and below = +1 to wound
IW Ignores cover
Reduce ap1/2 by 1
Heavy/grenade vs vehicules/buildings/units in cover = +1 to wound
WB
Charges/HI = reroll hits
5+++ vs MW When using a pistol/assault/melee = 6s to wound cause 1MW (capped @ 3MW per unit)
BL
ignore CA +1 to hit when charge or shoot closest unit
rapid fire/assault/pistol = exploding 5s (hit)
EC (4chain leak, not from my sources)
in the book
have a way of consistently hitting on 2s (even with thunder hammers)
WE Not in the codex
Datasheet info: Chosen
3w
can use TH
Mutilators
no longer in the book
Warp talon
2w
lost cancel overwatch
gained no fallback
5a (these are total with claws)
Raptors
still have the -1LD aura
+2a
Obliterators
can shoot units that are in engagement range with them (like wraithguard)
in melee they have powerfists without the -1 to hit
3 different shooting profiles
Havocs
exactly the same as right now but 2w
Stratagems
something to ignore invuls (4chan leak, so take with a grain of salt, leak said EC chosen could destory custodes hitting with TH on a 2+ and with strat ignore invul saves)
NL deepstrike strat for jump packs, DS turn 1
NL vox scream disables AURAS
Other: IW ectoplasma forgefiend can hit on 2+ and does flat 4 damage
"Ok so here is a bunch of info I managed to come by from secure sources: CSM doctrine:
exact same thing as SM, except replace +1AP with exploding 6s (unmodified hits)
Icons:
vengeance +1 CA wrath +1ap melee
flame +1ap shooting
excess +1 to hit melee
despair 6s to hit = autowound
All legions are getting 6 WT, 8 relics & 8 stratagems
Legion traits: NL -2LD & -1CA @ 9''
+1 to advance & +1 to charges
When using a pistol/assault/melee vs below half strenght unit or LD 6 and below = +1 to wound
IW Ignores cover
Reduce ap1/2 by 1
Heavy/grenade vs vehicules/buildings/units in cover = +1 to wound
WB
Charges/HI = reroll hits
5+++ vs MW When using a pistol/assault/melee = 6s to wound cause 1MW (capped @ 3MW per unit)
BL
ignore CA +1 to hit when charge or shoot closest unit
rapid fire/assault/pistol = exploding 5s (hit)
EC (4chain leak, not from my sources)
in the book
have a way of consistently hitting on 2s (even with thunder hammers)
WE Not in the codex
Datasheet info: Chosen
3w
can use TH
Mutilators
no longer in the book
Warp talon
2w
lost cancel overwatch
gained no fallback
5a (these are total with claws)
Raptors
still have the -1LD aura
+2a
Obliterators
can shoot units that are in engagement range with them (like wraithguard)
in melee they have powerfists without the -1 to hit
3 different shooting profiles
Havocs
exactly the same as right now but 2w
Stratagems
something to ignore invuls (4chan leak, so take with a grain of salt, leak said EC chosen could destory custodes hitting with TH on a 2+ and with strat ignore invul saves)
NL deepstrike strat for jump packs, DS turn 1
NL vox scream disables AURAS
Other: IW ectoplasma forgefiend can hit on 2+ and does flat 4 damage
"Ok so here is a bunch of info I managed to come by from secure sources: CSM doctrine:
exact same thing as SM, except replace +1AP with exploding 6s (unmodified hits)
Icons:
vengeance +1 CA wrath +1ap melee
flame +1ap shooting
excess +1 to hit melee
despair 6s to hit = autowound
All legions are getting 6 WT, 8 relics & 8 stratagems
Legion traits: NL -2LD & -1CA @ 9''
+1 to advance & +1 to charges
When using a pistol/assault/melee vs below half strenght unit or LD 6 and below = +1 to wound
IW Ignores cover
Reduce ap1/2 by 1
Heavy/grenade vs vehicules/buildings/units in cover = +1 to wound
WB
Charges/HI = reroll hits
5+++ vs MW When using a pistol/assault/melee = 6s to wound cause 1MW (capped @ 3MW per unit)
BL
ignore CA +1 to hit when charge or shoot closest unit
rapid fire/assault/pistol = exploding 5s (hit)
EC (4chain leak, not from my sources)
in the book
have a way of consistently hitting on 2s (even with thunder hammers)
WE Not in the codex
Datasheet info: Chosen
3w
can use TH
Mutilators
no longer in the book
Warp talon
2w
lost cancel overwatch
gained no fallback
5a (these are total with claws)
Raptors
still have the -1LD aura
+2a
Obliterators
can shoot units that are in engagement range with them (like wraithguard)
in melee they have powerfists without the -1 to hit
3 different shooting profiles
Havocs
exactly the same as right now but 2w
Stratagems
something to ignore invuls (4chan leak, so take with a grain of salt, leak said EC chosen could destory custodes hitting with TH on a 2+ and with strat ignore invul saves)
NL deepstrike strat for jump packs, DS turn 1
NL vox scream disables AURAS
Other: IW ectoplasma forgefiend can hit on 2+ and does flat 4 damage
I think that rumored list is a bit weird. Having such a complex list of conditions tied to a legion trait seems like it may be asking for trouble. And those seem better than the chapter traits for loyalists, though their traits also modify their doctrines so there’s that I suppose.
*sigh* They really do never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity...
And no Renegade Chapters and EC in the book. That's... wonderful.
Fergie0044 wrote: Gee, for a book that has Abaddon on the cover and talks a lot about him in the hype article, there sure is a big heap of nothing for chaos players in that!
They could always reprint the Psychic Awakening stuff for a third time.
*sigh* They really do never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity...
And no Renegade Chapters and EC in the book. That's... wonderful.
It isn't very clearly laid out, HBMC, but it looked like it was indicating that ECwere in the book. Doesn't mention Renegades either way, so who knows?
Given that speculation is that WE aren't in the book, maybe Mutilators are being moved to be WE-exclusive? I don't know if the background makes sense for that, and I can see it being annoying for anyone who owns them painted for other Legions.
Dysartes wrote: It isn't very clearly laid out, HBMC, but it looked like it was indicating that ECwere in the book. Doesn't mention Renegades either way, so who knows?
The only thing not clearly laid out was my sentence structure!
I meant "no Renegade Chapters" and "EC in the book" as separate points, but expressed that poorly. I didn't mean to say "no EC in the book", even though looking back I seem to have said just that. My bad.
The lack of Renegade Chapters is a problem as last time around Chaos had to wait for an expansion to get those, and given GW's obsession with DLC books, I wouldn't put it past them to reserve the Red Corsairs and anyone else for a separate book. As for the EC being in, that's very bad, because it means - if true - then one of two things is going to happen:
1. The new Chaos Codex will come with a brand new Noise Marine kit, and thus the Codex entry will include all the rules for the new options/weapon profiles/etc.
2. The new Chaos Codex will not come with a brand new Noise Marine kit, the rules will remain based on the (now invalid) conversion kit, and when the EC book arrives, the Noise Marine rules in that book will be different from the Noise Marine rules in the Chaos Codex.
I predict the latter, which is precisely why I wanted the EC and WE to get their books prior to the Chaos Codex.
Dysartes wrote: Given that speculation is that WE aren't in the book, maybe Mutilators are being moved to be WE-exclusive? I don't know if the background makes sense for that, and I can see it being annoying for anyone who owns them painted for other Legions.
I hadn't considered that last part, so yes, but people will just say "Use 'em as Oblits!".
My real disappointment here is that GW had a chance to do a 3-man plastic kit that makes 3 Oblits or 3 Mutilators, but like with Grotesques, have failed to make that leap. Instead we get 2 Oblits - mono-pose, no modelling options, no nothing - in a combined sprue available only in a bundle box. And if we do, by some miracle, end up getting a separate Oblit kit (of which no rumours have hinted at), then it still won't have Mutilators. A missed opportunity.
fight better due to extra AP and special weapons, have relevant shooting and you can just dump 3 CP on them to get re-roll everything.
That you are even trying to argue that wracks are remotely in the same league as ork troops is mind-blowing. How can you serious believe that?
I've played Thicc City three times now. Wracks don't generally get used like that. Extra AP is ~1 in 7 attacks when they have their +1 at R3. They're just stupid beefy donkey-caves that punch above their class, because there's so little S5/S6 out there. The specials just add cost for the way most of them get used -- except for the whip.
Boyz get twice the attacks under Waaagh. Wracks get Metallotoxins to eff with vehicles by wounding on 4s with poison. Snaggas....wound every vehicle and monster in the game on 4s...
Blade Artists is irrelevant. 10 Snaggas @ 110 and 10 Wracks @ 85 with a Whip.
Snaggas kill 5 marines 43% of the time with Waaagh
Spoiler:
Wracks do that 5% of the time with Blade Arists and +1 to hit
Spoiler:
Without Waaagh Snaggas kill 3+ 72% of the time. Wracks as above kill 3+ 58% of the time.
That Ork list literally beat Crusher Stampede and DE. Wracks get -1D for the off occasion D2 comes their way - Goffs get exploding 6s.
They're just not the mathematical hinderance people think they are. Blobs of 60/90/120+? Surely not, but you can absolutely run 10 or 20 mans in a competent list and get away with it.
I've played Thicc City three times now. Wracks don't generally get used like that. Extra AP is ~1 in 7 attacks when they have their +1 at R3. They're just stupid beefy donkey-caves that punch above their class, because there's so little S5/S6 out there. The specials just add cost for the way most of them get used -- except for the whip.
Boyz get twice the attacks under Waaagh. Wracks get Metallotoxins to eff with vehicles by wounding on 4s with poison. Snaggas....wound every vehicle and monster in the game on 4s...
Blade Artists is irrelevant. 10 Snaggas @ 110 and 10 Wracks @ 85 with a Whip.
Snaggas kill 5 marines 43% of the time with Waaagh
Spoiler:
Wracks do that 5% of the time with Blade Arists and +1 to hit
Spoiler:
Without Waaagh Snaggas kill 3+ 72% of the time. Wracks as above kill 3+ 58% of the time.
That Ork list literally beat Crusher Stampede and DE. Wracks get -1D for the off occasion D2 comes their way - Goffs get exploding 6s.
They're just not the mathematical hinderance people think they are. Blobs of 60/90/120+? Surely not, but you can absolutely run 10 or 20 mans in a competent list and get away with it.
And yet MOST DE lists are running a plethora of Wracks while the vast majority of Ork lists aren't even taking troops, or at best 1 MSU tax unit.
The fact that you have to go out of your way to find examples of Boyz in any lists at all is the proof that boyz/snaggas aren't in the same league as DE, and what's more...DE are absolutely top tier right now, while Orkz are at best 2nd tier. So the top faction spams 3+ units of Wracks but the 2nd tier tries to avoid troops in general. But in your head they are the same....wow.
Hankovitch wrote: I encourage it wholeheartedly. Pirate this content; keep playing the game without paying for GW's blatantly anti-consumer books. They'll only stop doing it when consumers stop rewarding them for it.
While I would never publicly (on the internet at least) encourage theft or piracy of intellectual property, I will point out that GW is QUICKLY going to have to reverse course and grow in popularity and acceptance among its fan base. We are at best years 5-10 years from 3D printers becoming so affordable/easy to use that if GW doesn't enhance its public image than a lot of people are just going to print their own models entirely. And tying this into CA. Almost nobody likes the current situation of rules releases in 40k. CA is a joke and we all know it. What GW should have done is tie this into their subscription based Rules App. Of course...for us to like the app they would probably have had to hire competent application coders instead of their friend bob who lives at his parents house still. (joke...except about how bad the app is). Put it this way, change the strategy from paper bound codexs/CA/rules to all App based, charge $5-6 a month and you probably walk out the door with MORE money than ever before. How many actually subscribe to the app? How many would if the codex's etc were free inside?
I always say this and its the damn truth in my opinion, GW is successful in spite of itself rather than because of itself.
keep playing the game to keep 40k the go to game for people who have no fixed group, or are new to wargaming
so that those walk straight to GW and throw money at them because they don't know about 3rd party models, 3D printing and how to pirate the rules, aka do free advertising for their product to reward them for their business practice
We all know GW only gets away with what they do because of popularity inertia. It sucks because with no real competition they really have to pile on the mistakes for the consequences to be felt. Shame they forgot 2016 so quickly.
SemperMortis wrote: While I would never publicly (on the internet at least) encourage theft or piracy of intellectual property, I will point out that GW is QUICKLY going to have to reverse course and grow in popularity and acceptance among its fan base. We are at best years 5-10 years from 3D printers becoming so affordable/easy to use that if GW doesn't enhance its public image than a lot of people are just going to print their own models entirely.
People have been saying this about film studios for twenty years and it hasn't panned out at all.
Is there a comprehensive write up anywhere of the points changes? Either from a reviews or rumours or something?
I’ve seen the full changes for a couple of factions but most I haven’t been able to find and are just what WarCom revealed (and goonhammer didn’t add much to). I saw sprues and brews had a post but it seems that half of the changes were from the previous CA?
It may be that Renegade Chapters just end up being folded into the Build-Your-Own-Subfaction system they have in most other codexes now? Although I wouldn't be shocked if we saw a Day 7 splatbook announced which sells you the Purge, Scourge, etc rules for £30 either.
NinthMusketeer wrote: We all know GW only gets away with what they do because of popularity inertia. It sucks because with no real competition they really have to pile on the mistakes for the consequences to be felt. Shame they forgot 2016 so quickly.
They forgot 2016 quickly because they rebounded pretty much instantly. Give it a year and a half, we'll have a 'clean slate' with 10th and people will be heralding that GW have changed and are listening and care, etc, etc.
If any other wargame makes a mistake, that's it, they're done. People jump ship and it will never rebound.
If Games Workshop makes enough mistakes to finally rock the boat a bit, they're given infinite chances to come back swinging. It's hilarious.
3D printing won't hurt GW for the same reason Citadel paints sell so well, ignorance and unwillingness to step out of the GW bubble. The vast majority of people will be happier paying £40 for a kit of Marines over investing in the upfront cost of a 3D printer and then faffing about with it, even if long term that works out far, far cheaper. If anything it will actually be a POSITIVE for GW because it's far more likely to hurt their competitors.
Oh good. More layered rules for 'Gravis Captains', but probably not the Gravis Captain with Master Crafted Heavy Bolt Rilfe, who also has a Master Crafted Power Sword, but likely hasn't learnt those "fighting stances" yet.
Oh good. More layered rules for 'Gravis Captains', but probably not the Gravis Captain with Master Crafted Heavy Bolt Rilfe, who also has a Master Crafted Power Sword, but likely hasn't learnt those "fighting stances" yet.
This datasheet has the same name as the one we had for the old gravis captain. Does it replace it? We would loose the option for the master crafted sword, but get fancy new rules for a basic one.
Also a lost opportunity to condense sheets, but no shock they passed on that.
Oh good. More layered rules for 'Gravis Captains', but probably not the Gravis Captain with Master Crafted Heavy Bolt Rilfe, who also has a Master Crafted Power Sword, but likely hasn't learnt those "fighting stances" yet.
This has got to be peak GW bloat. Not only do we get another datasheet instead of a consolidation of the existing ones, this one has additional rules for no reason I can see. On top of that, the "Gravis Fighting Styles" seem to be about offense, which is thematically weird since Gravis is the slow, ponderous, defensive armour.
Does this also mean we have 2 datasheets with the same name but different options?
Slipspace wrote: This has got to be peak GW bloat. Not only do we get another datasheet instead of a consolidation of the existing ones, this one has additional rules for no reason I can see.
Yup, expanding existing sheet to actually give it options playes asked for for years now is BLOAT now. In other news, sky is pink
And the reason is obvious to anyone who give it any thought, the model pays for two melee weapons. It's just expanded version of rule giving stuff like two eldari swords or pair of claws +1 attack, otherwise the points would be wasted. Hell, when the model was first previewed people hoped taking fist will give the model +1 attack to make it less redundant, but apparently giving people what they asked for is bad these days
People were apparently asking for the wrong things. Whoever these mythical people were that felt that 5 attacks just weren't enough because reasons.
Random joe-bob space marine captain doesn't need text bloat to have 6, 7 or 8 attacks depending on what weapon he carries.
It really highlights how asinine this system is though. The gauntlet and power fist are functionally identical, but if he has both, you still technically have to designate which one he's using, as 0-5 attacks can come from either weapon, but the 'additional' attack absolutely has to come from the power fist.
Slipspace wrote:Does this also mean we have 2 datasheets with the same name but different options?
Eyep.
Presumably a master-crafted powersword is enough like a relic that he magically forgets his 'fightin' stylin,'' but not sure what the weird game effects are from having 2 same name datasheets.
Do we even have two same-name datasheets? As I understand things, this new datasheet would override the old one in the same way that a new codex's datasheets override the old ones.
Rihgu wrote: Do we even have two same-name datasheets? As I understand things, this new datasheet would override the old one in the same way that a new codex's datasheets override the old ones.
The article doesn't suggest that. It says they're new datasheets for the new models.
It also contains datasheets for these two new Space Marine heroes.
However, we’re so keen to see them hit the table that we’re also making their datasheets available to download right here – completely for free.
Maybe there are unrevealed replacement rules in the campaign book, but at the moment the existing gravis captain with MC powersword doesn't use this datasheet, and the new models don't use the old datasheets.
Rihgu wrote: Do we even have two same-name datasheets? As I understand things, this new datasheet would override the old one in the same way that a new codex's datasheets override the old ones.
The article doesn't suggest that. It says they're new datasheets for the new models.
It also contains datasheets for these two new Space Marine heroes.
However, we’re so keen to see them hit the table that we’re also making their datasheets available to download right here – completely for free.
Maybe there are unrevealed replacement rules in the campaign book, but at the moment the existing gravis captain with MC powersword doesn't use this datasheet, and the new models don't use the old datasheets.
The Captain in Gravis Armour has clearly been spending some time in the practice cages, because he can now replace his traditional power sword with a chainsword or a power fist. He’s even mastered Gravis Fighting Styles to make the most of his new weapons.
Is very much implying that it's a replacement sheet to me. "because he can now" wouldn't make sense if it's a brand new data sheet, because then he couldn't have done anything before. The "now" would be the first iteration.
Voss wrote: People were apparently asking for the wrong things. Whoever these mythical people were that felt that 5 attacks just weren't enough because reasons.
Yeah, screw those people for pointing out that equipping the old Gravis Captain with a Power Fist instead of a Sword would be meaningless since the fist has the same profile as the gauntlet. What fools! They should have been happy with their 5 attacks and entirely-useless (unless you're one of the chapters with a relic power fist) weapon option.
Voss wrote: People were apparently asking for the wrong things. Whoever these mythical people were that felt that 5 attacks just weren't enough because reasons.
Yeah, screw those people for pointing out that equipping the old Gravis Captain with a Power Fist instead of a Sword would be meaningless since the fist has the same profile as the gauntlet. What fools! They should have been happy with their 5 attacks and entirely-useless (unless you're one of the chapters with a relic power fist) weapon option.
Yes...? Given that the base attacks of space marine heroes is traditionally _3_, they really should have been happy with 5. And shock assault. And weapon bonuses. And psychic abilities, strats and chapter specific gimmicks...
Sorry, your point was what? It kinda got buried under the bloat.
Voss wrote: People were apparently asking for the wrong things. Whoever these mythical people were that felt that 5 attacks just weren't enough because reasons.
Yeah, screw those people for pointing out that equipping the old Gravis Captain with a Power Fist instead of a Sword would be meaningless since the fist has the same profile as the gauntlet. What fools! They should have been happy with their 5 attacks and entirely-useless (unless you're one of the chapters with a relic power fist) weapon option.
Yes...? Given that the base attacks of space marine heroes is traditionally _3_, they really should have been happy with 5. And shock assault. And weapon bonuses. And psychic abilities, strats and chapter specific gimmicks...
Sorry, your point was what? It kinda got buried under the bloat.
Ok? I'm sorry the entire game (not just Space Marines) has rapidly increased the number of attacks and rules everything has. Marine characters haven't had 3 attacks in half a decade at the very least.
My point should have been obvious - A Boltstorm Gauntlet already has the same profile as a Powerfist. GW releasing the model without giving it a special rule to justify it taking the Fist would make it a completely worthless option. Even the existing Master-crafted Powersword on the old model was mostly useless, as the additonal strength on the Gauntlet meant it was usually equally as good if not better than the sword.
Voss wrote: People were apparently asking for the wrong things. Whoever these mythical people were that felt that 5 attacks just weren't enough because reasons.
Yeah, screw those people for pointing out that equipping the old Gravis Captain with a Power Fist instead of a Sword would be meaningless since the fist has the same profile as the gauntlet. What fools! They should have been happy with their 5 attacks and entirely-useless (unless you're one of the chapters with a relic power fist) weapon option.
Yes...? Given that the base attacks of space marine heroes is traditionally _3_, they really should have been happy with 5. And shock assault. And weapon bonuses. And psychic abilities, strats and chapter specific gimmicks...
Sorry, your point was what? It kinda got buried under the bloat.
Ok? I'm sorry the entire game (not just Space Marines) has rapidly increased the number of attacks and rules everything has. Marine characters haven't had 3 attacks in half a decade at the very least.
My point should have been obvious - A Boltstorm Gauntlet already has the same profile as a Powerfist. GW releasing the model without giving it a special rule to justify it taking the Fist would make it a completely worthless option. Even the existing Master-crafted Powersword on the old model was mostly useless, as the additonal strength on the Gauntlet meant it was usually equally as good if not better than the sword.
Or they could've just not included the Power Fist for the model, as one Power Fist and one Boltstorm Gauntlet looks a lot sillier than two Boltstorm Gauntlets (which was actually asked for).
Voss wrote: People were apparently asking for the wrong things. Whoever these mythical people were that felt that 5 attacks just weren't enough because reasons.
Yeah, screw those people for pointing out that equipping the old Gravis Captain with a Power Fist instead of a Sword would be meaningless since the fist has the same profile as the gauntlet. What fools! They should have been happy with their 5 attacks and entirely-useless (unless you're one of the chapters with a relic power fist) weapon option.
Yes...? Given that the base attacks of space marine heroes is traditionally _3_, they really should have been happy with 5. And shock assault. And weapon bonuses. And psychic abilities, strats and chapter specific gimmicks...
Sorry, your point was what? It kinda got buried under the bloat.
Ok? I'm sorry the entire game (not just Space Marines) has rapidly increased the number of attacks and rules everything has. Marine characters haven't had 3 attacks in half a decade at the very least.
My point should have been obvious - A Boltstorm Gauntlet already has the same profile as a Powerfist. GW releasing the model without giving it a special rule to justify it taking the Fist would make it a completely worthless option. Even the existing Master-crafted Powersword on the old model was mostly useless, as the additonal strength on the Gauntlet meant it was usually equally as good if not better than the sword.
Well, no, that wasn't obvious, since you clipped my post to cut out the bit where I point out how absurd the powerfist is. So you disagreeing with me to also complain about the powerfist didn't strike me as a possibility.
SemperMortis wrote: I have no idea where you guys are pulling these numbers from. With my absolutely garbage printer I can print a copy of CA in a minute? You don't think a major print company couldn't bang out a couple hundred thousand to a million a day? You are out of your minds, as far as shipping worldwide? It takes 15-30 days to ship around the world, assuming GW doesn't just use local printers in those host countries or host areas, IE print in Germany distribute to most of Europe as opposed to printing in China and shipping around the world. DOUBLE that time and you are still talking about 2 months not 6+
I import goods for a living and I can assure you the time necessary to bring goods to market by container is measured in months, not weeks. And that is from the point of completed materials. Before that you have to add in production time. I wouldn't be at all surprised if it takes GW 4-6 months from finalized copy to be ready to release a book for sale.
One of my closest friends is a Merchant Marine He routinely travels to Asia from the Pacific Northwest (Seattle/Tacoma) on big cargo ships. His two-way trip usually took 45-55 days, i know because when I was stuck out on that coast I would grab a beer with him when he pulled into harbor. SO no, if it takes 4-6 months for a company to print a book and ship it, then they fail as a company
So 15-30 days to traverse the pacific (biggest ocean) on a cargo ship. So that leaves MONTHS to print and distribute the book. So no, I don't believe it takes them 4-6 months to write new rules and print them and ship them around the world...and that again is only if they are using a SINGLE print location which would be a bit silly unless that print location is dirt cheap and the shipping costs aren't going to just artificially destroy the price...(Sorry australia)
I work in production, import, export and have a lot of business knowledge and just no. A perfectly managed (people issues such as absences, process, policy, inter-personal, delivery checks, distribution network) with no transport (weather is a thing, criminals), trade (borders, processing, changing legislation, docking ports, unloading/loading are things), admin (right paperwork at the right time both internal and external), quality (test, check, feedback and correct), communication (time zones, language barriers, memory) or tech issues (scanners, machinery, computers, ERP software)... sure.
A normal, realistic organisation in this reality on earth... no. So much can and will go wrong.
Also, as a guy in the book retail industry, with close friends in a major publisher, a 'major print company' can't bang out a hundred thousand to a million books a day. First of all, nobody's printing a million copies of one book in a day. Second, printers are having issues getting paper, ink, parts.
Third, and most importantly, no major print company just has printers sitting around doing nothing waiting for something to print. There's a print schedule, which is already royally screwed up by COVID, and you're not going to get something stuck in there at the last minute unless it is absolutely a cash cow (a tribute to Betty White, a major expose on a major political figure, etc.). You've got books on the schedule for six months, nine months, a year out. You have reprints for books that have sold out that are waiting two to three months (and these are books that are SOLD OUT of the first edition completely).
In a vacuum, a publisher could knock out some book for GW in a matter of days (packaging, shipping, receiving, and distributing them are all other issues), but nobody is sitting around on industrial color printers with no jobs at all lined up.
Indeed. The publishers all use the same printers anyway. Colour is printed in the Far East and takes months to ship. If you don’t have any clue about the books supply chain best not open your mouth.
Voss wrote: People were apparently asking for the wrong things. Whoever these mythical people were that felt that 5 attacks just weren't enough because reasons.
Yeah, screw those people for pointing out that equipping the old Gravis Captain with a Power Fist instead of a Sword would be meaningless since the fist has the same profile as the gauntlet. What fools! They should have been happy with their 5 attacks and entirely-useless (unless you're one of the chapters with a relic power fist) weapon option.
Yes...? Given that the base attacks of space marine heroes is traditionally _3_, they really should have been happy with 5. And shock assault. And weapon bonuses. And psychic abilities, strats and chapter specific gimmicks...
Sorry, your point was what? It kinda got buried under the bloat.
Ok? I'm sorry the entire game (not just Space Marines) has rapidly increased the number of attacks and rules everything has. Marine characters haven't had 3 attacks in half a decade at the very least.
Off the top of my head:
Archons went from 4/5 attacks in 5-7th to 5 attacks in 9th.
Haemonculi went from 3/4 attacks in 5-7th to 4 attacks in 9th.
Succubi went from 4/5 attacks in 5-7th to 6(!) attacks in 9th.
Autarchs went from 3/4 attacks in 5-7th to 4 attacks in 9th.
Farseers went from 1/2 attacks in 5-7th to 2 attacks in 9th.
Troupe Masters went from 3/4 attacks in 7th to 5 attacks in 9th (when they moved from a squad-leader to an HQ).
Shadowseers went from 3/4 attacks in 7th to 3 attacks in 9th.
Corsair Princes went from 3/4 attacks in 7th to ceasing to exist in 9th.
Man, I see why Space Marine Captains needed to go from 3/4 attacks to 6+ to keep up with that rampant attack inflation.
Is anyone actually taking the chainsword option over a teeth of terra?
The grav styles are cool in some respect, but also, they should be MC weapons, otherwise it still won't be used.
Under the new rules, all three of them have a use, even ignoring allowing the Captain to use certain relics.
Under the 9th Edition Codex, you get 5 attack divided between the Boltstorm Gauntlet and the Master-Crafted Power Sword. So you are choosing between x2 S with -1 to Hit and +1S. The only time the MCPS is better is against T2 and T9 since the improved Wound Roll at least makes up for the Hit Penalty.
Now the new improved Captain gets to make (excluding other sources of bonus attacks) either:
5 Boltstorm Gauntlet Attacks plus 3 Astartes Chainsword Accounts
5 Boltstorm Gauntlet Attacks plus 2 Power Sword attacks
6 Power Fist/Boltstorm Gauntlet attacks
And the point cost of the unit is the same no matter which option you take. I suspect that is why the Chainsword and Power Sword are not master-crafted.
Slipspace wrote: This has got to be peak GW bloat. Not only do we get another datasheet instead of a consolidation of the existing ones, this one has additional rules for no reason I can see.
Yup, expanding existing sheet to actually give it options playes asked for for years now is BLOAT now. In other news, sky is pink
I'm not talking about the weapon options (though it's also semi-bloat given we still have at least one extra Gravis datasheet even if this one replaces the original Gravis Captain one). I'm talking about tacking on extra rules for fighting styles instead of just leaving the model with different options. You'll notice I said rules, not options. Or maybe you didn't in your rush to be sarcastic and condescending.
It used to be the case that if you wanted your Captain to be good at killing different things you gave them different weapons and that was it. That's why we have different weapons in the first place. These fighting styles are just another example of pointless additional rules because GW is apparently unable to create a datasheet without a bespoke special rule on it now. If the problem is the model has 2 close combat weapons, which is largely useless, that's another piece of GW stupidity where the sculpting takes primacy over the game itself.
The fighting stances are a neccesity because having multiple meele weapons in warhammer 40k makes no sense most of the time unless one gives you extra attacks.
Balance datasheet that is created based on actual play has no adjustments for rules that were released in the last two weeks. I’m dying of not surprise.
Limiting orks to one of each buggy seems very unlike GW. It must lead to less of those models being sold, and as far as balance patches goes, it is a very hamfisted one.
Illumini wrote: Limiting orks to one of each buggy seems very unlike GW. It must lead to less of those models being sold, and as far as balance patches goes, it is a very hamfisted one.
It's one of each unit of buggies, they're a 1-3 option.
alextroy wrote: Balance datasheet that is created based on actual play has no adjustments for rules that were released in the last two weeks. I’m dying of not surprise.
They needed to wait then. The thing this balance slate needed to fix most was CA2022. That book is the biggest problem with faction balance right now. If all this had said was 'revert all changes in the munitorum field manual 2022' it would have been one of the best balance passes GW has ever done.
...you know we're getting one of these every three months, right? Instead of waiting GW is giving us one now AND one later. It's the best of both worlds.
I don't see why someone would prefer GW's previous approach of not doing anything at all.
Illumini wrote: Limiting orks to one of each buggy seems very unlike GW. It must lead to less of those models being sold, and as far as balance patches goes, it is a very hamfisted one.
It's one of each unit of buggies, they're a 1-3 option.
NinthMusketeer wrote: ...you know we're getting one of these every three months, right? Instead of waiting GW is giving us one now AND one later. It's the best of both worlds.
I don't see why someone would prefer GW's previous approach of not doing anything at all.
The problem is both approaches are bad. The old approach because things didn't get updated at all, and the new one because it doesn't seem to be meaningfully fixing anything. The question is whether you prefer incompetence or laziness.
NinthMusketeer wrote: ...you know we're getting one of these every three months, right? Instead of waiting GW is giving us one now AND one later. It's the best of both worlds.
I don't see why someone would prefer GW's previous approach of not doing anything at all.
The problem is both approaches are bad. The old approach because things didn't get updated at all, and the new one because it doesn't seem to be meaningfully fixing anything. The question is whether you prefer incompetence or laziness.
Either way you would be wrong on cause. It's ££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££.
NinthMusketeer wrote: ...you know we're getting one of these every three months, right? Instead of waiting GW is giving us one now AND one later. It's the best of both worlds.
I don't see why someone would prefer GW's previous approach of not doing anything at all.
The problem is both approaches are bad. The old approach because things didn't get updated at all, and the new one because it doesn't seem to be meaningfully fixing anything. The question is whether you prefer incompetence or laziness.
I prefer something to nothing. And to say they don't meaningfully impact things is just plain false. No, they don't fix everything. Or even as much as they really should. But it is a huge step up from what we had before and I am not so blind that I can't see more stairway.
NinthMusketeer wrote: ...you know we're getting one of these every three months, right? Instead of waiting GW is giving us one now AND one later. It's the best of both worlds.
I don't see why someone would prefer GW's previous approach of not doing anything at all.
Charging nothing for nothing is better than charging lots for garbage.
I definitely preferred them not doing anything at all, and it doesn't create the community/meta deciding there's a 'need' to chase that dragon every few weeks (or worse, the next round 'wait and see' for 'fixes' that never materialize).
Game, army book, go play for five years: far better.
NinthMusketeer wrote: ...you know we're getting one of these every three months, right? Instead of waiting GW is giving us one now AND one later. It's the best of both worlds.
I don't see why someone would prefer GW's previous approach of not doing anything at all.
The problem is both approaches are bad. The old approach because things didn't get updated at all, and the new one because it doesn't seem to be meaningfully fixing anything. The question is whether you prefer incompetence or laziness.
I prefer something to nothing. And to say they don't meaningfully impact things is just plain false. No, they don't fix everything. Or even as much as they really should. But it is a huge step up from what we had before and I am not so blind that I can't see more stairway.
Except between the balance dataslate and CA2022...they made the balance worse, especially in the middle tiers. We would have literally been better off with nothing. Drukhari got a slap on the wrist while multiple other armies got absolutely TANKED and Crusher Stampede took precisely 0 hits.
Pretty sure there's something out there that goes 'First, do no harm.' that GW could learn from.
NinthMusketeer wrote: ...you know we're getting one of these every three months, right? Instead of waiting GW is giving us one now AND one later. It's the best of both worlds.
I don't see why someone would prefer GW's previous approach of not doing anything at all.
Charging nothing for nothing is better than charging lots for garbage.
I definitely preferred them not doing anything at all, and it doesn't create the community/meta deciding there's a 'need' to chase that dragon every few weeks (or worse, the next round 'wait and see' for 'fixes' that never materialize).
Game, army book, go play for five years: far better.
As much as I hated these updates, this does ignore the more common 'game, army book, stomped 5 games in a row because army book is garbage, sell army book, never play 40k again.' that also happened previously.
The most common cause of 40k related deaths is probably people impaling themselves on old chaos models or the Sanctum Imperialis plastic terrain.
"Why did you paint blood on those ruins?" "I didn't, that's real blood."
As much as I hated these updates, this does ignore the more common 'game, army book, stomped 5 games in a row because army book is garbage, sell army book, never play 40k again.' that also happened previously.
As much as that's an internet complaint, it was something I rarely experienced in person.
There were specific books that were way OVER-tuned that caused problems (vampires and daemons off the top of my head during specific fantasy and 40k editions), but that tended to sort itself out in local stores (the players of said armies usually got tired of being picked last for games every week)
As much as I hated these updates, this does ignore the more common 'game, army book, stomped 5 games in a row because army book is garbage, sell army book, never play 40k again.' that also happened previously.
As much as that's an internet complaint, it was something I rarely experienced in person. There were specific books that were way OVER-tuned that caused problems (vampires and daemons off the top of my head during specific fantasy and 40k editions), but that tended to sort itself out in local stores (the players of said armies usually got tired of being picked last for games every week)
So add in 'army book way too good, can't get a game, sell army book, never play 40k again' to the list.
Also, what you described is why you get these rose tinted goggles people moon-eyeing over previous editions.
"Yeah, when me and my buds played it in our basements or at the 1 table at the FLGS, while pretending half of the rules didn't exist, 5th edition was great!"
As much as I hated these updates, this does ignore the more common 'game, army book, stomped 5 games in a row because army book is garbage, sell army book, never play 40k again.' that also happened previously.
As much as that's an internet complaint, it was something I rarely experienced in person.
There were specific books that were way OVER-tuned that caused problems (vampires and daemons off the top of my head during specific fantasy and 40k editions), but that tended to sort itself out in local stores (the players of said armies usually got tired of being picked last for games every week)
So add in 'army book way too good, can't get a game, sell army book, never play 40k again' to the list.
I'm going to quote Voss:
Voss wrote: As much as that's an internet complaint, it was something I rarely experienced in person.
