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What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/02/04 18:50:45


Post by: Necros


So, Bad Lands is Kickstarting and moving right along, and while that’s going I wanted to start planning out the beasts as a new faction for Blackwater Gulch. What I’m planning to do is a small expansion book, probably 20-30 pages tops, and it would be a print-on-demand book for hopefully relatively cheap, plus a stripped down PDF for free. Some day I would like to do a big retail release with an expanded BWG 2.0 rulebook, but for that I would rather wait until at least 3 factions are done (humans, beasts, undead) and that’s quite a ways away. So I figured the small expansion book would be a better way to go for now.

As far as the rules go, forming a beast pack is pretty much the same as a human gang. Pick a big nasty boss monster to lead your pack, add in a couple of fiends (like professionals) and at least 1 minion per fiend (like henchmen). Each animal aspect has a different ability, which is basically treated like weapons for humans. But, since most of them won’t need Ranged Combat, they will have those points spent elsewhere, usually for quickness, stamina and melee combat.

I have the art from Bad Lands and that will be used as concept art for the minis. Since I also already have a lot of human minis, I’ll be focusing on the beasts first, though I do plan to do minis for the Bad Lands heroes since they are all new members for each gang, but at the moment I can’t afford the amount of sculpts needed to do everything all at once for a proper retail release.

I’m looking at around $800-1000 per figure for my costs (for the sculpt, print, molds, pro-painting, etc), so I will have to take it slow. I don’t really plan to do a Kickstarter for minis again, so when they’re ready they’ll just be available on my online store maybe with a pre-order sale to get an idea of how many copies I’ll need to make. I’m going to look into getting the sculpt done for the Alpha Werewolf first, I think that’s a model that would sell pretty good even to folks who just want a cool werewolf model for other games. I’m thinking of having the Alpha / Boss monsters all larger than men, on 40mm bases, but the regular beasts and minions will be on the usual 30mm bases, but I haven’t decided yet.

So that’s where I’m at now. And as usual, I’ll share screenshots of the sculpts as I get em. I’ll also get the rules cleaned up as I have time, but right now I’m a bit too busy with Bad Lands, so that might take a little while. If anyone has a preference of any beasts you’d like to see, speak up and I’ll get em on the list


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/02/06 14:14:09


Post by: Necros


Sculpting is underway on the first new mini, the Alpha Werewolf. I hope to have some screenshots soon. Maybe a week or so.

I've also decided to include this mini as a free gift for anyone that backs Bad Lands for at least 1 copy of the game

I'll also have it available separately in the pledge manager after the campaign if anyone wants to just get that mini, or wants more than 1


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/02/09 03:23:50


Post by: Necros


Here's an early render of the Alpha Werewolf. He's not posed yet and still lacking a lot of detail like hair and a tail and other stuff. But it's a good start



What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/02/09 11:42:55


Post by: CptJake


Pretty good looking so far.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/02/17 17:04:13


Post by: Necros


I’m planning out the rules and how to build beast packs and undead hordes, also trying to decide if I should do separate mini-expansion books for each race, kinda like a codex & bestiary in one? Or one big book with both? The human info is all in the main rules, so I don’t think they need an extra book of their own.

They will both have 3 character levels, like for humans, we have Henchmen, Professionals and Heroes. For Beasts we'll have Minions, Fiends and Monsters. Beasts will all be animal-releated creatures, not just Skinwalkers.

For undead we have Servants, Disciples and Elders. Undead won’t all really be undead things, so I’m also trying to decide if they need a different name. They will primarily be zombies, ghouls and wendigo (savagey vampires), but will also include witches and really any folklore creature that’s “creepy” and not an animal. And rather than straight up brain eating zombies I want to go for a kind of voodoo feel where it’s more like people who are being controlled by someone mean, but they’ve been like that for a while and there’s no going back. They still want to eat brains, they just aren’t quite dead yet.

For the starter sets, I’m planning on having 6 models rather than 5. The Fame points will come out to be the same though. It’s mostly because they won’t really have any weapons to add to their points the way humans do. So each will have 1 monster/elder, 2 fiends/disciples and 3 minions/servants. I’ll be starting with the werwolf pack that will include 1 Alpha Werewolf, 2 Werewolves and 3 Chupacabras. Then I’ll do the Wendigo undead pack that will be 1 Wendigo, 2 Ghouls and 3 zombies, then I’ll start adding to each faction and start doing more human sculpts too, I just thought it would be good to get both of the new factions started first.

So that’s where we’re at now. I’ll be working on the rules on the side while I’m working on Bad Lands. They’ll be playtest rules for a while, at least until I can get enough miniatures done for a worthwhile retail release, and that could take a while.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/02/23 14:35:09


Post by: Necros


Game Salute is no longer running an online store and focusing more on distribution, so I now have all Blackwater Gulch models for sale on my online store here:

http://store.gangfightgames.com/blackwater-gulch/

Game Salute has also slashed the prices on all of the starter sets and hired guns, around 50% off I still have a few tweaks to do to my site tonight, then I’ll be making a more formal announcement around the web. I’ll still be offering all of the models in the Bad Lands kickstarter with these new prices, but if you don’t want to wait you can buy them now


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/02/23 19:47:36


Post by: MacCall


These are good news. If it will help, I will wait for the campaign.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/02/24 03:30:02


Post by: Necros


Yep everything will help Sales before the campaign help me pay the artists and sculptors, during the campaign help me fund Bad Lands

But I put them up now because I know some folks aren't into Kickstarter or just don't want to wait. It might be a bit of a wait anyway though, since I just found out Game Salute is moving to a new warehouse this and next week, so they won't be able to ship out any orders until March 6. I'm gonna wait till next wednesday or so before I make the announcements around the web, so if folks see it and want to place an order they won't have to wait as long.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/03/10 18:06:39


Post by: Necros


I’m starting to work out the playtest rules for the Beast faction now. I’m hoping to have a PDF done soon, but here’s some notes.

There are no beast characters, but there will be some unique monsters. Generally, a Minion will be a henchman level beast, Fiend will be a Professional level and Monster will be Hero/gang leader level. There will be a special set of skills to choose from, like the humans. Some skills will be shared, like Run & Gun for example, but there will be a lot of unique ones. Minions are mostly just animals and attack with teeth, claws or horns, but some Fiends and Monsters may use primitive weapons like bows or melee weapons.

For Skinwalkers, each will have an "animal aspect” that is similar to human Professions, so they have a +1 to a certain attribute and special skill. These are:

Wolf: +1 Intellect. Throat Ripper - Special attack that can be performed once per activation. Adds +1D6 to your to hit roll and +1 Strength. Enemies taken out of action from this attack cannot be revived.

Bear: +1 Strength. Pummel - in melee combat, every roll of 6 to hit lowers his target's DP by 1 for this attack.

Bats: +1 Stamina. Radar Sense - Werebats are always to see what's going on around them, preventing enemies from receiving a bonus when attacking them from behind.

Cats: +1 Quickness. Nine Lives - If a Werecat is taken out of action, it may make an additional bonus saving throw using it's Stamina instead of Defense Points, and stand back up if the new save is passed. Even though it may have “Nine" lives, this bonus save can only be performed once per game.

These are the main 4 I’ll be focusing on for models at first, but also plan to follow up with these 4 next:

Bugs: +1 Quickness. Dark Omen - Count all werebugs as 2 models for the purposes of outnumbering in enemy morale tests.

Rats: +1 Intellect. Sneaky - Wererats roll +1D6 To Hit bonus when attacking enemies from behind.

Bison: +1 Strength. Trample - Run in a straight line. Any Hero in the path of the beast or its personal space will take 1 melee hit with a strength equal to the amount of inches traveled.

Crocodile: +1 Stamina. Death Roll - Treat like a 2-handed melee attack with +2 Strength. If an enemy is wounded from a Death Roll, but taken not out of action, it will be unable to leave melee combat. May be performed once per activation.

I’m still working out the special rules for the undead faction, but I think I want to focus on getting the beast rules more or less done first.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/04/07 18:45:13


Post by: Necros


Howdy folks

Another long winded thinking aloud ramblin’ post. Curious to see what anyone thinks of these ideas

So, I’ve been really torn over this whole thing for a while now, I’ve been wanting to do a weird/horror west expansion for Blackwater Gulch pretty much since the beginning, but right now the game is more or less historical and I’m starting to think I should keep it that way, from a brand perspective. I do still intend to do new models for each gang, and new gangs from scratch. The rules work good, folks like em, so I’m thinking that if it ain’t broke I shouldn’t fix it.

Rather than doing a weird west expansion, perhaps it would be best to brand that as a separate game, but still keep both compatible and the rules would be similar, and I’d give it the Bad Lands name. The board game has been postponed until I can get sculpts done and have that be a game that comes with plastic minis, so developing skirmish rules first and releasing metal minis as we go would probably be a better way to go forward. I hope to have new sculpts fund the next ones on the list and keep adding new models in slowly, rather than going for an expensive splash release or a kickstarter.

The new rules would remain as a free PDF for a while, like an ongoing public playtest and living rulebook. I wouldn’t offer a printed version until I’m happy that they’re “done” and I have a few different factions available, and I’d still have a free PDF version forever too. The gameplay would be mostly like Mechadrome, which is mostly like BWG, only your stamina = how many actions you get and quickness = how many inches you can move in 1 action. Each faction will still have 3 different character levels, like now.

One other difference I’d like to have is less of an emphasis on using pre-made characters, instead you’ll create your gang from scratch using different class or monster types, and fixed stat lines, and you can name them yourself. I’d still have some pre-made roster sheets or character cards you can download though. And the gang size will be the same, aiming for around 5-10 models tops. I already started working on the rules, I should have them available in the next few weeks.

Anyway, that’s where I’m at now. I thought separating them into 2 different product lines would be a better way to go and avoid any confusion, or turn people away that wanted more of a historical setting for BWG. I’m planning to start doing resin terrain/building kits too eventually, and those would work for both games But I probably won’t be ready to start on the terrain until around this fall.

So right now we're working on the Werewolf minis, and the Chupacabras. My goal is to have the Bad Lands skirmish rules done in time to have that ready to go when the minis are for sale, with instructions on how to use your BWG minis in the game. Then I'll probably have to switch gears and get the new Mechadrome heavy mech campaign done, and then back to more beasts after that The BWG gangs will make up the human faction at first, until we're able to start doing new sculpts for them too. I want to focus on getting the beast and undead factions up and running first, but I plan to add in a few hired gun types here and there.

That's where I'm at now. Looks like i'm in for a really busy summer


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/04/08 13:37:20


Post by: CptJake


I have to admit, I prefer an expansion (even if it were to include the base rules so it could be sold as a stand alone) rather than a separate game/product line. Folks only interested in 'historical' Wild West gaming can easily skip using the supernatural critters.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/04/08 15:55:08


Post by: Necros


Yeah that's true. I'm going to be starting it out that way anyhow, just some additional playtest rules to go with the new minis as I make them. I'd like to eventually do an all new rulebook with everything all in 1 place, so that got me thinking that it might be cool to do it as an all new game. But I'll see how it goes. Maybe a big BWG 2.0 book would be better?


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/04/08 15:56:38


Post by: CptJake


I would rather a BWG 2.0 with Weird West chapter than a separate rule set.



What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/04/08 18:41:01


Post by: Necros


What I'd like to do is have all of the new rules be free PDFs and a print on demand book for people that want a physical copy. I've been getting some print estimates though and was kind of surprised that a hardback book is only slightly more expensive than softcover, so I think what I may do is plan to do a KS campaign probably early next year just to get a limited hardback book printed.

8.5x11 and 124 pages with 500 copies made would be in the $35-40 range. The current rules are 80 pages and half sized, so it's more like 40 full pages. Would be plenty of room for updated rules, extra fluff and artwork and a nice mini-codex for each of the 3 factions. So I thought I could do a small campaign to get a nice book done and let folks add in minis if they want to as well, and just print enough to cover the pledges and a few extras, and then do the print on demand soft cover after they're gone.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/04/09 09:46:11


Post by: CptJake


I am a big fan of hard copy books. I tend to prefer soft cover for rule books but would support a KS for a hardcover.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/04/09 12:27:22


Post by: Tiarnan


Warmachine/Hordes does a good job of having two different, but completely compatible brands. It's not a bad idea. The only downside is having two different rulebooks if you want everything, but that's easy to resolve by combining them into one rulebook.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/04/09 14:25:09


Post by: Necros


Yep that's kind of what I was thinking, a warmachine / hordes kind of thing. But, thinking about that more, I would probably need a much bigger product line to support something like that, so it might be better to just keep things all in 1.

And yeah I prefer softcovers too, I thought a KS campaign would be fun and a good way to produce a small limited edition hardcover book. I want to use KS more for smaller projects that will be easy to fulfill rather than great big campaigns that can easily spiral out of control. Like the Mechadrome campaign for the heavy mech and just a couple extra things that I'll be doing this summer.

I think for a 2.0 book I'd do the hardcover campaign, and then once those are all sold out afterwards, I think I'd do print-on-demand digest-sized softcover with just the rules, plus a mini-codex kind of booklet for each race.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/04/09 14:05:01


Post by: CptJake


I have a big (not digest sized) soft cover with a 2011 copyright date I think was your first hard copy release. How much different is the digest size version?


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/04/09 15:13:54


Post by: Necros


The original book is still the current book, that's a little smaller than official digest size which is 5.5x8.5. We originally wanted the book to be small enough to fit inside of a starter set box, but we never ended up packaging it that way. We still have a lot of the original book left, so I won't be updating that to the digest size unless we run out. It wouldn't be any new content, just enlarging the pages slightly to fit.

I was referring to BWG2.0 in my last post. I was imagining we'd start with the special edition hardback that has the rules plus special chapters for each race, when that's all gone I thought I could switch a smaller digest sized book that's just the rules and separate mini books for each race, to keep the costs down since print on demand books tend to be more expensive.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/04/09 15:19:36


Post by: CptJake


Mine is 8.5 x 11 inches, I think it was from a Print on Demand service like Lulu maybe.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/04/09 15:37:04


Post by: Necros


Oh.. that's the really old book. It still works if you want to hang onto it and wait a while, it's not like there are any grand tournaments coming up or anything the $10 small sized book has some updates to it, mostly about gang creation and equipment and some fluff. Or you could use the PDF rules that are online now.

BWG 2.0 wouldn't be happening until next year at least. I'm planning to release a few of the monster sculpts ahead of time with PDF playtest rules to get folks started, but then I'll be switching gears and going back to Mechadrome over the summer.

So right now I'm planning the Mechadrome heavy mech campaign for around August, and then the BWG campaign would be around Jan/Feb next year, but I'll still be releasing other smaller things inbetween, mostly just going to use KS for things that are too expensive for me to start on my own.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/04/13 21:21:53


Post by: Necros


I found out that my 3D printer hasn’t started on the new werewolf models and there’s about a 2 week wait at this point since he’s swamped. Not a huge deal but that’s going to push things back more than expected. I was planning to get more beast sculpts done first, but I’m starting to wonder if I should just go with the werewolf pack, then move right on to the undead?

So we have the Werewolf Pack, and that has an Alpha Werewolf, 2 normal Werewolves and 3 Chupacabras. The Wendingo Coven would have an Ancient Wendigo, 2 normal Wendigos and 3 Zombies. And then going forward I’d release new models separately, maybe a pack of 3 jackalopes, followed by 3 ghouls, followed by a human hunter character, some werebears, etc.

Then I’d have the PDF expansion rules cover both factions rather than just doing the beasts first and waiting a while and doing the undead later. Doing it this way would probably push the 2.0 book back farther, since I’d want to make sure I can have a lot more models plus color art done to show off in the book and make it look nice, but I think it will be the easiest way to get all of the rules out there.

I was originally planning to do 3-4 different were-things plus 3-4 different minions to go with them first, and start the undead after that, but I figured this would be a better way to get more variety going sooner.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/04/14 15:32:02


Post by: fightcitymayor


On a completely different topic than Badlands: At one point I remember seeing the art/background for reinforcements (on the old site's blog) for some of the existing gangs. Will these ever go anywhere? Kinda like how the Zarconis showed up in lore & art but have been AWOL ever since.

p.s.
If you had the blog up & running at the website then you could cross-post there & maybe get some more eyeballs. I'm not sure how many people dive into the Dakka forums for BWGulch news.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/04/14 17:55:35


Post by: Necros


Yeah currently I kinda just post all over I'm in the process of switching my website over run on a wordpress blog and also killing the online store I have and building a new free one off of the same wordpress site, and I want to set up a facebook news page and twitter and all that too.. just never have any time

And yes the Zarconis will get done eventually. What I'm planning to do them in order kind of like ... werewolf set, wendigo set, a few new men, more beasts, more undead, a few more men. So I'd fit the zarconis in there somewhere too


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/04/15 15:55:14


Post by: Necros


Just had another thought.. would it be worth it to do a bunch of small Kickstarters for the new models, more or less pre-order campaigns?

So around June or however long it takes to get masters made and painted, we do a Savage Beasts kickstarter, like a short 2-week campaign, to order the Werewolf pack. It would have just 1 pledge level for the werewolf starter pack (and you can add on our current gangs too), maybe including a printed digest sized book with the beast rules.

I’d plan to deliver in August or September. The funding goal would be fairly low, under $1000 since I’ve already paid for the sculpts and all. I’d include stretch goals for the other beasts and some new men to hunt them, but I’d need to get at least $3000 per stretch goal for new models though, and stretch goals would all have to be “wave 2” deliveries that get delivered later on, probably november or december.

But, I still want to plan the Mechadrome heavy mech KS for August .. would it be bad form to do that before the beast minis are delivered, even though it’s 2 separate games?

After that, when the beasts are all sent out and the new sculpts done, I’d do another mini campaign for the Ravenous Dead, followed by another small one for mechadrome, and keep switching back and forth like that between games, doing mini-campaigns for a couple things that are easy to fulfill rather than big ones that drag on forever?

Just thinking rather than doing a regular pre order in my online store, a KS would get more exposure. I don’t think it would hit all of the stretch goals, but even just getting the mold and production costs paid up front would be a big help for me.

What do ya’ll think?


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/04/15 17:02:25


Post by: CptJake


Ed from Two Hour Wargames has run several small KS projects to get a rule set printed and/or a handful of figures made.

It seemed to work for him, and what you are proposing seems close to what he has done.

I would contact him to get his perspective on the good/bad of small projects. He is a great guy.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/04/15 17:22:39


Post by: Necros


Cool I'll look him up.

I was mostly just worried that people would start complaining if I started a new campaign before sending out the stuff from the last. The big guys do it, but that doesn't make it right

The mechadrome campaign is going to be more important IMO, it's going to be a bigger project just because the heavy mech will be big model. But I thought I could easily do a bunch of mini-campaigns, probably every 3-4 months going forward, and since the werewolves are almost done I could start off with that.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/04/20 15:04:01


Post by: Necros


So, I’m hoping to have the Chupacabra 3D sculpts done this week if all goes well, then they will be off to the printer. I have the Savage Beast rules PDF almost done and will be releasing that around the web hopefully tonight if not tomorrow.

If all goes well we should be able to do the Kickstarter in June. It will just be a short 2-week campaign to get the cost of the Werewolf & Chupacabra production molds and models paid for, with a $2500 funding goal. I’m hoping to be able to fulfill this one quickly and then jump right into the next mini-campaign

I do have plenty of other beasts on deck for stretch goals, but the main goal is to get the wolves done. Those will ship out pretty quick, but stretch goals will all have to be sent later as 2nd wave since nothing else has been sculpted yet.

I’m planning to just have 3 pledge levels ..
$1 basic pledge to add on whatever you want.
$25 gets you the werewolf starter pack (1 Alpha Werewolf, 2 Werewolves and 3 Chupacabras) or any other beast starter pack that gets unlocked later.
$50 gets you the werewolf starter, 1 human gang starter set, 1 rulebook and 1 Savage Beasts book.

Kind of wondering if I should not include the books and just have them be add-ons? Just thinking a lot of folks who would be backing probably already have the rulebook so why make them get another? Maybe just not have the $50 pledge at all? Most folks know how to increase their pledge if they want add-ons.

For add-on items, we’ll have all of the original models at the prices the are now. The savage beasts book will be $10 (it’s a print on demand book so it costs a little more to make, but I don’t want to have to print 1000 copies if I don’t need to). Beast packs will be $25.

Separately you can get 3 Minions (cupacabras, jackalopes, etc) for $12, 2 Fiends (basic were-things) for $10, or 1 Monster (Alpha were-thing) for $6. We’ll also have 2 new human professions/hired guns, Monster Hunters and Preachers, those will be $6 each if they get unlocked.

So I’m hoping that will make for a good template for quick & easy campaigns I’d rather do a bunch of small campaigns back to back that are easy to fulfill rather than one big one that drags on and on, so I think this will be a better way to go.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/04/20 16:34:15


Post by: Johnny Ringo


I do like the 50$ pledge level idea, but I see what you mean with the rulebook. Maybe some pre existing hired guns of the backer's choice (like 2-3) instead of the rulebook?


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/04/20 21:43:42


Post by: Necros


I could try something like that. I do want to try and keep it as easy as possible for the warehouse guys though.

So, maybe I'll just keep it as the 2-player starter set kind of pledge, and then folks that don't want the rulebook can just do the lower pledge and add on the add-ons they want. But then, I'm going to use my online store for the pledge manager and people's pledge amounts will become store credit, that worked well for the Mechadrome campaign. So folks could technically pick anything they want out of a $50 pledge, and just pay the difference via paypal if they go over.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/04/23 14:09:33


Post by: Necros


Chupacabras are almost done. Here’s all the bits. We had to chop off all of the arms and legs for the molds to work best, so those will be on little labeled sprues so you will know what pieces go where. I was hoping to not have as many parts, but we just can’t have dynamic poses any other way. The parts should all fit together perfectly though and shouldn’t require pinning thanks to the little plugs we’re using. Since you’ll have to glue them together I decided to make these guys be man sized instead of dog sized, just so it’s a little easier to build and the parts won’t be all teeny.



What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/04/26 03:45:42


Post by: Johnny Ringo


Hey,just saw that the savage beasts playtest rules were released, ill try and get some games in soon and send feedback when i can.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and is there anyway to get your official terrain in US dollars anywhere? i cant seem to find any.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/04/26 14:45:18


Post by: Necros


Nope, no official buildings really. There's the Battle Flag buildings here:

http://www.wargame-buildings.com/blackwater-gulch.html

They're not really totally official but I gave em permission to use the name and they made an update to their hotel model to give it a flat roof and we named it the Blackwater Palace. Some day I hope to make some of my own resin buildings, but the sculpting will be expensive and I want to focus on minis for the 2 new factions right now.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/04/26 15:36:00


Post by: Johnny Ringo


Gotcha dude, was just curious, that palace does look cool though.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/05/01 04:55:46


Post by: Johnny Ringo


Hey Just as a heads up I really dig the new website update you did! I don't know if you could, but if you could somehow combine the wild west style of the last one, It would be top notch.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/05/01 14:05:49


Post by: Necros


Thanks And yeah I plan to include more of those elements later on, right now I want to focus on getting the content all moved over. Eventually I'll be changing my domain names around so blackwatergulch.com will go right to the BWG page on the main site, and also in time I want to get my online store integrated so there's no more separate sites to keep track of I can just have everything all in 1 place. The store will take much longer to do though so I'm saving that for last.

Then after that's done I want to start doing lots of videos, some just to show the models from all kinds of angles, but also how to play, how to paint, stuff like that. That will have to come much later though.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/05/01 14:16:46


Post by: CptJake


 Necros wrote:
Nope, no official buildings really. There's the Battle Flag buildings here:

http://www.wargame-buildings.com/blackwater-gulch.html

They're not really totally official but I gave em permission to use the name and they made an update to their hotel model to give it a flat roof and we named it the Blackwater Palace. Some day I hope to make some of my own resin buildings, but the sculpting will be expensive and I want to focus on minis for the 2 new factions right now.


Hawgleg Publishing (the guys who put out Gutshot) had a small resin building selection, and then acquired more. They never really did much with them.

http://hawgleg.com/default.asp

Mike Murphy and Mike Mitchell are both good dudes. I think Mike Mitchell probably has most of the molds and stuff at this point.

You could possibly get with them and maybe come up with an almost 'turn key' start at terrain offerings.

Jake


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/05/01 15:02:54


Post by: Necros


Cool I'll look into that

What I was thinking of for buildings is to do super high detailed special buildings that would be the hideout or home for each gang, so the Clancy gang might get a saloon, vigilance committe would be the sheriff's office, etc. But I want them to be super high detail models, a lot like the tabletop world buildings, only western looking instead of fantasy


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/05/05 19:34:28


Post by: Necros


So I’ve been giving some thought to the faction ideas now that we have the Beasts on the way. I was going to save this for BWG2.0 next year or whenever I can make that happen, but I think I’m going to do this with a rules update to go with the Savage Beasts expansion. What I was planning is to have 1 big human faction with all of the current & future gangs, then the beasts faction with all animal type monsters, and undead later on. Kind of wondering if 1 big human faction is too much, and I should break that up more, into a Lawman and Outlaw faction.

The Lawmen would be the Vigilance Committee, Widowmakers, Dockside Drifters and Wilde’s Rangers. Outlaws would the Clancy Gang, Bandidos Mexicanos, Secret Fist and Bloodwolf Tribe.

Hired guns are neutral, they can join either side. I also thought about making the Tranquility Crew be neutral like hired guns, basically like a whole gang of hired guns? Sometimes their nice, and sometimes they aim to misbehave.

The Beasts and Undead would be similar, 2 different factions, but Demons would be like hired guns and can join either side. Demons will be critters like the jersey devil, mothman, rake & slenderman.

Anyway, I thought that might be a fun way to break things up a little. that way the folks that want to stick with a historical type of game can have 2 factions to choose from, and there could even more to choose you want to play with the monsters too.

Any thoughts? Would that mess up your plans for world domination if you usually play with 2 gangs together that are suddenly enemies? Would it be better if each whole gang was like a separate faction? That was my original plan way back when, but I was afraid that would make things too limited with only 5 guys per gang currently...


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/05/06 04:14:14


Post by: Johnny Ringo


I could see where it could be a little much with everyone having a separate faction. I do really like the outlaw and lawman faction idea, but if it were something like an end of the world scenario, and the gangs had motivations for joining outlaws and lawmen, I feel like that would be a good idea. Then again i also like playing to were my gang has a different motivation than my buddy's gang.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/05/06 13:35:20


Post by: Necros


I was thinking not so much an end of the world scenario, but more like it's become a really dangerous place and some gangs have set aside their disagreements to work together for safety or just to try and get more money.

Only thing I'm kind of stuck on is the faction / race skills I was planning. Humans have access to all guns and artillery, beasts have running wild, and undead will be bloodsuckers (or brain eaters, same thing, they heal 1 HP if they take someone out of action).

I'm kinda thinking both the outlaws and the lawmen should get their own special faction skill too. Or is it good enough that each gang leader has something special they can do to help their gang? Beasts and undead won't have special leader skills, just humans


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh also, 1 other thing I was going to do is update all of the character cards to the newer style I was using for Bad Lands, same content just a different look. There would be little icons for the attributes instead of “Str” and “Sta”, and an icon at the top to show what faction they’re in. The only thing is I can’t change the cards that are already in the boxes because they’re all shrinkwrapped and in a warehouse 4 states away, but the old cards would still be valid anyway. So I was going to have the new cards be download only, and maybe have a print on demand option for people that really want the printed cards, through Wargame Valut or The Game Crafter.

And going forward, for new models I wasn’t going to include cards anymore since it’s an added expense and I want to have things be as cheap as possible. That’s why the stats are in the rules for each of the beasts. I was gonna make the cards be more like an optional kind of thing.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/05/07 05:49:23


Post by: Johnny Ringo


Gotcha, I do enjoy having the separate factions with different motivations. I think I worded it wrong when I said "end of the world" I was trying to say "really dire circumstances" lol but I will say I do like having the cards but if you do decide not to include them I feel like the print on demand is a great option for a little extra.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/05/07 14:10:41


Post by: Necros


Yeah I wanted to remove the cards for a few reasons. For one, I have to use bigger packaging to fit the cards, and it’s an added expense. I’m trying to make the minis as affordable as possible Then there’s the issue of printing all those cards, organizing them, packing them, the more stuff we add in the more chances something can get missed. And then there’s also a lot of who folks buy the minis for other games, and just throw the cards out anyway so that seems like a waste. I thought going forward I’d offer them as downloadable PDFs, Print on demand for people that want a real card, and in new books I’ll print each character’s stats too like I did with the beasts PDF. That will also allow me to start packaging in small clamshells or blister packs that will be a lot cheaper than printing boxes.

For packaging, what I hope to eventually do is retire the current gang starter sets after they are all sold out, and then sell those minis separately in smaller packs, then do new faction starters with new characters. So we’ll have an Outlaw starter set, lawmen, beasts and undead. Other characters would be sold in packs of 3 henchmen, 2 professionals or 1 hero/gang leader. Same thing with the beasts where they will have 3 minions, 2 fiends or 1 monster.

Only problem is it’s a lot more expensive to sculpt new sets of men since everyone has to be unique. The beasts work much better since we just have to sculpt 1 in 3D and then just duplicate it to make different poses. So it’ll take a while to get new gangs put together.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/05/07 18:38:41


Post by: Johnny Ringo


The new sets don't sound like a bad idea at all, I think Ill stick to the Wylde's Rangers army theme though. hopefully when the kickstarter begins we can get enough raised for some new human sculpts though.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/05/08 04:00:59


Post by: Necros


Here's what I was planning for the new cards



the icon in the top right is for the faction, and I'll probably do a different background color or something like that for each faction too, except for the minis I don't have art for, then those will get a photo of the mini.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/05/08 04:37:30


Post by: Johnny Ringo


That looks awesome! really like the changes and keep it up with that artwork, it might just be me but i think stamina should be like a muscled torso or something along those lines.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/05/08 13:15:54


Post by: Necros


Yeah I thought about that but it just wasn't coming out right, so we went with the lightning bolt I'm going to shrink the icons down and space them out a bit, so there's a gap between the XP and Strength, kinda like the cards are now. The flip side is just gonna be plain text like now. Content is gonna be the same as the current cards, they're just getting a facelift.

I'd like to be able to do color art for all of the old characters that don't have any, but it's expensive.. basically around $100 per character and that really adds up fast for a gang of 5. I also thought about changing to all model photos, but I also can't afford showcase quality pro painting, so art is the cheaper option

I'm updating the savage beasts rules now with the faction info, so I'm hoping I'll have that done in the next couple of days, then I can get started on all the cards I've also been thinking about moving some of the current hired guns over to the outlaw or lawmen factions, maybe just a 2 or 3, to give more options for heroes/leaders.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/05/08 16:09:28


Post by: Johnny Ringo


Wow i actually didn't know the art was that expensive.the hired guns idea is neat, is it going to go along with the new box sets whenever those come to be?


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/05/08 17:05:51


Post by: Necros


The art is cheap compared to the minis anyway, those usually end up costing over $1000 per mini including the sculpt and the molds and everything. I wish I were able to sculpt myself, I'd save so much money The big mechs from Mechadrome were more like $2000.

One good thing about the Beasts though, is we only need to sculpt 1 of each kind, and then repose it, so that will help me get a lot more models done faster and cheaper. Humans and the undead will all have to be more unique sculpts that will cost more.

I was thinking the new Outlaw and Lawman sets would have 5 all new characters, probably all the different heroes I was going to have in Bad Lands.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/05/09 02:59:32


Post by: Johnny Ringo


As long as you keep the preexisting ones supported and around im fine with it lol ive grown quite fond of my wyldes rangers.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/05/09 14:30:49


Post by: Necros


Nope they're not going anywhere Just some repackaging later on but that's a long way off, not till the current box sets are all sold out and I need to get new ones made.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/05/11 03:24:14


Post by: Johnny Ringo


Huzzah! a good day indeed, anyway though when will the kick starter actually start? Gonna make sure i got the cash for it.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/05/11 03:56:11


Post by: Necros


At this rate it's probably going to be late June or early July. The printer got the files but we ran into some issues and I had to send him new versions, hopefully they'll finally be printing this week. Then it will probably take a least 2 weeks to get master models to paint, then another 2 weeks to paint and prepare everything else. So, plenty of time to save your pennies

I just finished the updated savage beasts rulebook though

http://www.gangfightgames.com/blackwater-gulch/savage-beasts/

I'll be getting the new cards done this and/or next week


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 4215/05/11 04:48:01


Post by: Johnny Ringo


Gotcha, and thats a damn good looking expansion lol the cards turned out great.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/05/12 03:25:58


Post by: Necros


Got some new art for the undead This will be the cover image eventually, after it gets colored in



What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/05/12 15:38:58


Post by: porkuslime


I have to say I do not like the Icons instead of words for stats. I think that would be fairly hard to remember all the time, but also I am a long time player and am used to the Acronyms and abbreviations.

In general though, when I run the demos I have..

Forces of Law - Vigilance Committee, and a custom Marshal gang

Outlaws - Clancys,and Widowmaker

3rd party grouping (as I have 3 or 6 players sometimes) - Mexicans, Tranquility crew

I thought the Widowmakers are sort of a "rogue" group of women.. a bit like the "wild bunch"




What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/05/12 17:58:31


Post by: Necros


hmm .. well, I could keep it as the one big human faction like I originally planned, I thought that having the two factions + hired guns would be fluffier. Or does it just limit things unnecessarily? I thought this would also make it easier to handle new releases, so I could just make a couple minis at a time, like add in 1 new outlaw gunslinger or lawman bounty hunter. It’s a lot more expensive to sculpt a whole new gang, but I could probably handle 1 new sculpt a month to keep things more current and slowly grow the game without needing to use kickstarter all the time. I actually hate the whole kickstarter process, but I don’t really have any other option right now.

For the icons though, I wanted to do that to make it kind of multi-lingual. Also when I would do demos it would seem like people get confused over all the stats (that or they just couldn’t hear me over the gencon cacophony) so I thought having an icon would make it easier to identify at a glance. I think I may drop the circles though, so it’s just a little picture.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/05/19 14:37:38


Post by: Necros


Funny thing just happened.. I got a big spreadsheet from Game Salute with all of the stock they have in the warehouse.. not the box sets, but all the loose items left over from the 2 Kickstarter campaigns, and there’s a LOT. A while back they told me I had thousands of dollars worth of stuff, but when they told me how many box sets it didn’t seem like much, but now I know why There’s the red and blue special dice, gamecraft buildings, secret weapon resin bases, and lots of solo minis. So, I will soon be adding a lot of that to my online store. This also means I’ll be able to sell solo copies of pretty much every mini I have, rather than just box sets. This started because I wanted to see how many bases were left over so I could get the gatling guns made to sell separately. Turns out they have 100 gatling guns just sitting there collecting dust So that will save me the expense of casting new ones, and I won’t have to wait till June to make them, I can pretty much just offer them as soon as I get the go-ahead from the warehouse (hopefully today).

gonna be a busy next couple of nights adding all those new but old products to my store…


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/05/19 20:01:12


Post by: porkuslime


sounds like a problem that a lot of retailers would LOVE to have..

will await the webstore update!


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/05/19 21:30:54


Post by: Necros


May take a little while I don’t think they have any of these extra items in their system for selling/packing/whatever so I have to wait and hear back from them to see what’s what. At the very least I hope we can get the gatling gun going and take it from there. but seeing how much extra stuff they have laying around I’d like to be able to offer it for folks that might not want every mini in a set, while supplies last anyway.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/05/21 14:08:57


Post by: fightcitymayor


 Necros wrote:
There’s the red and blue special dice,


Gonna need me some o' them thar dice!


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/05/22 14:00:52


Post by: Necros


Not sure how long it will take for the fellas at Game Salute / Ship Naked to pack up all the extra stuff, but I instructed them to pack up the remaining back-stock minis where we have enough for full gangs just in bags with no cards or retail box. Since I’m redesigning the cards folks can download new ones or get print on demand versions if they want a nice thick card. Once all that old stuff is sold out and I need to get new copies of gangs produced I’m going to have Iron Wind do the packaging there in the factory and everything will come in nice clamshells. Decided not to sell every gang member individually right now, because that will just be a nightmare of SKUs for the warehouse to keep track of. We’ll stick to the 5-man gang packs and solo hired guns.

So for the other items left from the previous kickstarters we’re going to have packs of 6 blue colt 45 dice or 6 red sheriff dice, packs of 5 random secret weapon resin bases (they’re all mixed up with odd amounts so it’s easier this way), 2 army painter starter sets, and a whole bunch of GameCraft buildings.

Lastly, for the Gatling Gun, we only have 11 copies of Wilde’s Rangers left so I have to get new stuff made, what I decided to do is when the current box sets are sold out, Wilde’s Rangers will become a 5 man gang just like all the rest and the gatling gun will no longer be included. If I include it I’m gonna have to crank up the price, and i don’t want to. It’s just cheap now cuz Game Salute wanted to get rid of the old stock. So the 5 man gang will be $15, and the Gatling Gun will be $5. I guess I could have made the gang $20 and kept the gun in, but I like having all of the gangs the same price

I was also thinking of updating the Artillery rules and have them treated like Hired Guns, so you can have 1 Hired Gun or Artillery piece for every 5 models in your gang. I’m gonna be adding more artillery too, we’ll have the Grappler that will be the Gatling Gun carriage with a ballista looking thing on top that shoots Mancatcher-like spears attached to a rope, for slowing down beasts that run too fast. Then when we do undead we’ll have something similar for shooting giant wooden stakes at vampires/wendigos.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/05/22 15:18:01


Post by: fightcitymayor


 Necros wrote:
Lastly, for the Gatling Gun, we only have 11 copies of Wilde’s Rangers left so I have to get new stuff made, what I decided to do is when the current box sets are sold out, Wilde’s Rangers will become a 5 man gang just like all the rest and the gatling gun will no longer be included. If I include it I’m gonna have to crank up the price, and i don’t want to. It’s just cheap now cuz Game Salute wanted to get rid of the old stock. So the 5 man gang will be $15, and the Gatling Gun will be $5. I guess I could have made the gang $20 and kept the gun in, but I like having all of the gangs the same price
Seems reasonable, but you might need to bump up the stats of one of the three Privates (maybe a promotion to corporal?) so Wilde's Rangers doesn't become too handicapped as a faction without the Gatling Gun. Take away their Gatling Gun and Ambler/Connors/Watson become easy pickins.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/05/22 16:14:51


Post by: Necros


I was thinking of that actually.. What I was thinking of doing with BWG2.0 is advance the timeline by a couple of years, and they would all have promotions.. Sergeant Wilde will become Lieutenant Wilde, etc. But yeah I think I could give 1 promotion now.

I was doing some minor tweaks to other characters in the new cards, mostly since there's a couple of henchmen that had a 1 for Stamina or other stats, I bumped them up to a 2 or 3 and swapped some stats around. I think it was just 1 guy so far but there might be a couple more before I'm done. I have all the outlaws done now

I decided to switch to model photos for the cards rather than art, since I don't have nice color art for the first 4 gangs.. but then, the beasts will be art since I don't have the models yet. Will that be weird if some cards are art and some are photos?


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/05/22 19:40:08


Post by: fightcitymayor


 Necros wrote:
I was thinking of that actually.. What I was thinking of doing with BWG2.0 is advance the timeline by a couple of years, and they would all have promotions.. Sergeant Wilde will become Lieutenant Wilde, etc. But yeah I think I could give 1 promotion now.
Perfect!
 Necros wrote:
I decided to switch to model photos for the cards rather than art, since I don't have nice color art for the first 4 gangs.. but then, the beasts will be art since I don't have the models yet. Will that be weird if some cards are art and some are photos?
Well, the cards are like that now (the early dudes have photos of the actual minis while later dudes have artistic renderings) so I don't see it being a big deal. Especially if you plan on having the cards be web-based exclusively. You can start with art renderings, then update them to photos when they are ready.

And you should definitely post here and at The Miniatures Page when you get the GameSalute/ShipNaked stuff in stock at the website.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/05/26 17:04:26


Post by: Necros


Something else I’ve been thinking about.. how about adding mounted minis? I have rules for horses, but no models of my own yet. I was thinking of possibly doing something like a resculpt of some of gang leaders and/or hired guns and have a mounted & unmounted version of them, it should be pretty easy to do the 2 different versions of a mini in 3D, just sculpt him once and make 2 different poses.

Or is a skirmish sized game better off with just guys on foot? Just not sure how practical horses would be in the game, I playtested with them a while back and it seemed ok, but it always felt like having men on foot was easier and more fun. Felt like the extra rules for horses slowed things down.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/05/29 00:28:37


Post by: fightcitymayor


 Necros wrote:
Something else I’ve been thinking about.. how about adding mounted minis?
It would be tough to make it work well. To be realistic, horses would have to be both more powerful and more maneuverable. So being faster and hitting harder would make them overwhelmingly better than "standard" figures, so they would likely end up being overcosted as well. And like you said, in addition to being overpowered they would likely bring a whole raft of new rules with them. So while it might be interesting (and thematic) to see them in the Gulch, it might be more trouble than it's worth. (But who knows, maybe someone has some better ideas on how to make them usable without being game-enders.)

I have some 28mm Perry Union & Confederate mounted generals (painted up quite nicely) that I have used as "Victory Point Locations" in a few of my objective-oriented Gulch scenarios. (Fight your way to the general, and keep him from taking more than X damage.)


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/06/07 23:10:02


Post by: home_brew


For the Hired Guns, you could make a homage to the show Supernatural and add Sam and Dean Winchester as some type of beast fighting duo. Possibly with the names Sam and Dean Colt or Flintlock.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/06/08 03:30:40


Post by: Necros


Planning that.. I was going them merge it into one, Dr. Samuel D. Manchester III, Esq.

And then when we start the undead faction there will the infamous witch hunter Ashford Campbell, armed with his trusty top of the line double barreled remmington.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/06/08 15:45:40


Post by: porkuslime


but.. of course!

I would prefer the Supernatural Homage to be 2 characters though..

any chance of scientists who bust ghosts and other ectoplasmic terrors?


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/06/08 16:11:36


Post by: Necros


Ha.. actually I was thinking of a ghost hunting gang just like that, with steampunky backpacks and special ghost killing weapons. They'd be good against undead, but I wasn't sure how to make them good against people too, and don't want them to be too 1-sided. Maybe I could make it just 1 guy instead of all 4?

A little worried though cuz I've heard they can be pretty lawyer-happy.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/06/09 14:46:22


Post by: porkuslime


Another thought that might get around issues..

Make the Supernatural Homages female..

Samantha and Deanne Manchester..


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/06/09 15:05:50


Post by: Necros


Hmm girl hunters might be cool I’d probably wait though till we do the undead stuff, and have 1 as a monster hunter and the other as a witch (undead) hunter.


Anyway, crazy idea about Henchmen… for BWG 2.0 I was planning to level up each current henchman character to a professional, and then release new packs of 3 generic henchmen all armed with the same type of weapon. So for instance, a pack of Drifters would be 3 different guys all armed with shotguns, and each type of henchman would have the same stats. They’re no-name cannon-fodder townsfolk. What I hope to be able to do is give players more options and variety for building gangs. Leaders will be sold separately, professionals in packs of 2, and henchmen and packs of 3, so you can just get the packs with the minis you want in your gang. The beasts will be sold in that same format with an alpha/monster separately, fiends in 2-packs and minions in 3-packs.

I’ve been going through and updating all of the current character cards to the new style and now I’m starting to think why wait? I don’t want people to buy these cards and then a year later suddenly have to buy an all new deck for 2.0, that’s too GWish. The only problem is that means with the latest rules I’d have no henchmen models for a year or so, they’ll take a while to sculpt and I want to focus on getting the beasts up and running. You could build henchmen characters and use any mini you wish if you make your own gang from scratch though.

So, if you want to play using the Savage Beasts rules, the mandatory Henchmen rule would be dropped. Just take that 2.0 rule I was planning and do it now. You just need 1 Gang Leader / Hero, and you can have any number of Professionals or Henchmen, as long as both players have similar Fame levels it should still all be OK. You can use more professionals if you want to have more of an elite gang with fewer men, or more henchmen if you’d like to try and outnumber your enemies.

Also, since there will be fewer Hired Gun cards than Outlaws and Lawmen, I figured I would add new new henchman types to that deck, giving them the hired gun icon so they could join either faction. There will be Bandits and Drifters with ranged weapons and Crooks and thugs will have melee weapons. Or would it be better to have 2 join the lawmen and 2 join outlaws? Or different versions of each type for each faction and call em deputies instead of bandits? That means I'd have to eventually sculpt 24 new minis instead of 12. Might need to start buying some lottery tickets...


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/06/11 17:50:28


Post by: Necros


So, next minor dilemma on my mind.. Should I redo the rulebook now?

I didn’t want to do it now purely for money reasons, because there’s still around 200 copies of the current left right now and I want to sell them rather than recycle them

But I’m wondering if, from a new player perspective, it would be better to have an all in 1 book available in the Kickstarter and an easy “2 player starter bundle” pledge. The content would be pretty much the same as it is currently, I would just update the fluff in the beginning and gang creation and character creation sections to include the different factions, and I could also include the new professions. I would have to make it a print-on-demand book and I imagine the price would be $20, which is 2x more than the current book because print on demand is more expensive, but allows me to print only as many as I need rather than hundreds more to get the best price. Really I just thought it would be best to have everything all in 1 place rather than a bunch of different PDFs, I thought it might be easier for people if there’s just 1 rulebook (printed or downloaded) to rule them all. It wouldn’t take much to redo the book, I already have all of the content ready to be cut & pasted, so I don’t see it delaying the already delayed new campaign at all.

But again, with the current books that’s a lot of money worth of stock to just throw away, and I don’t want to annoy people who bought the current book recently. The current book would still be valid, the rules themselves won’t really change, but I don’t want to confuse people by having 2 different versions of the same thing. So I’m kinda torn.

Anyway, what do y’all think?


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/06/11 22:38:57


Post by: home_brew


You could sell the rest at the next origins demo along with some models to get some revinue then probably wait a few months before you release the updated rulebook.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/06/11 23:04:52


Post by: CptJake


I'm one of those guys who just bought the new rulebook (to replace a very old first edition print copy). I may be a TEENY bit annoyed at a new version, but would still grab a hard copy of it. And I wouldn;t hold a grudge over it (for too long )

I see some options.

Print up enough of a 'supplement/expansion' rule book (with any needed addendum to the current version plus the New Stuff) to have one per remaining copy of the current version and sell them only as a pair. Try to sell them at enough to cover your print costs but if possible a tiny bit less than the New All In One edition which incorporates all the new stuff with changes to the old into a new book. Downside: May be throwing more money after bad covering the costs of printing the 'New Stuff' expansion. Mitigation: Don't order a print run of the New All In One until you've sold off most (75%?) of the current plus expansion two book sets.

Go with the plan you mention in your post. Downside: As you explained, you are stuck with 200 copies of current edition. Mitigation: Offer them as prize support for folks running your games at conventions, with a printed card giving a link to the new PDF. Offer them as prizes for various social media contests (Facebook, BGG, Dakka, etc). Throw a copy in with any figure order over $X.00.

Sell the current rulebook as part of starter sets. Maybe a couple different two player sets with a handful of figures (randomly grabbed from your excess stock?) Include the printed sheet with link to New Version.

Just some ideas...

Jake


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/06/12 02:16:24


Post by: Necros


Yeah I gave it a lot more thought and decided to have 3 books

So we have the original book, we'll keep that till it sells out. Once that's gone then I'll switch to just having the updated full book.

Then, the "Beast Expansion Guide" which is pretty much the same as what's the PDF I have posted now, only with the new Henchmen added, will be around 40 pages total and I think around $10. I'll print what we need for the campaign, then it will be print-on-demand only after that.

And then, I'll do the full new version, "Blackwater Gulch: Savage Beasts Rulebook" that will be geared toward new players for $20. Same thing, I'll print what's needed and then that will be print on demand afterwards.

I still would like to do a nice and big hardback 2.0 book, but I'd rather wait until I have the new factions more fleshed out and a lot more artwork and stuff. So that would likely be a year or more away.

Also, for the Kickstarter I'm going to do one full deck of updated character cards. There will be 80 cards in all including every character so far and every beast, and I think that will be $20 as well. It will be cheaper that way than doing 4 faction decks of 20 that would end up being $7-8 each, and less chance of the warehouse guys getting them mixed up

So then, I can make a special 2 Player Starter Set pledge level that will have the new full book, card pack, 1 human gang and 1 beast pack


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/06/13 04:28:59


Post by: Mr_Barista


There's always a bald pain in the neck to any would-be Demon Knights....


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/06/15 17:32:30


Post by: fightcitymayor


 Necros wrote:
Also, for the Kickstarter I'm going to do one full deck of updated character cards. There will be 80 cards in all including every character so far and every beast, and I think that will be $20 as well.
When Battlefront did Dust Tactics 2.0 you were able to buy a deck of 100 updated cards for an MSRP of $12, which usually ended up as $10 in the shops.
Just sayin'.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/06/15 17:50:12


Post by: Necros


Yeah I definitely don't want them to be too expensive, but I'm basing that on print-on-demand prices. BF could probably afford to print 1000's and that drops the price down a lot, the more you print the cheaper it gets. I'm getting some printing quotes now though, hopefully I can find one that can do it cheaper.

I'm also going to list all of the new stats in the rulebook and as a free PDF. The physical cards are more of a convenience and for folks that prefer to have a nice card rather than cheapy printer paper


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/06/15 18:05:35


Post by: CptJake


 fightcitymayor wrote:
 Necros wrote:
Also, for the Kickstarter I'm going to do one full deck of updated character cards. There will be 80 cards in all including every character so far and every beast, and I think that will be $20 as well.
When Battlefront did Dust Tactics 2.0 you were able to buy a deck of 100 updated cards for an MSRP of $12, which usually ended up as $10 in the shops.
Just sayin'.


I suspect Battlefront, as a much larger company, doing much larger print run, probably got a better price per deck and were able to pass that on.

Just sayin'.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/06/16 21:03:54


Post by: Necros


I know I keep flipflopping, but as I’m putting together the updated rulebook it’s getting cumbersome keeping track of 6 different factions in 1 little book. So I’ve re-decided to just stick to primary races. We’ll keep humans as is with no lawman or outlaw factions, just a bunch of gangs like it is now. I will be upgrading the stats of current henchmen and making everyone a professional though, and going forward with generic henchmen types, eventually to be sold in packs of 3 all armed the same and with the same stats. Then we’ll have all of the Beasts as the 2nd faction in the game. Undead will be the 3rd. Kind of toying with the idea of splitting undead into 2, where the Wendigo will be separate from zombies. In the fluff, wendigo are vampire-like, but not really dead, just crazy cannibals.

About the cards again… the quote I’m getting is for a deck of 80 cards, all current characters + beasts. Would it be better to just make a deck for all of the old characters + new humans from the new campaign (so, less cards), and then include the beast cards with the new models? I wanted to try and get away from that, to make the minis a little cheaper and easier to pack in small clamshells. But, with the changes I was thinking about going forward with for Bad Lands I kind of want to plan ahead, and I think it might be best if the cards come with the models. Or, maybe, cards are included with starter sets, but not for individual models sold separately? I’d still have the downloadable cards too, of course.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/06/22 17:53:31


Post by: fightcitymayor


 Necros wrote:
About the cards again… the quote I’m getting is for a deck of 80 cards, all current characters + beasts. Would it be better to just make a deck for all of the old characters + new humans from the new campaign (so, less cards), and then include the beast cards with the new models? I wanted to try and get away from that, to make the minis a little cheaper and easier to pack in small clamshells. But, with the changes I was thinking about going forward with for Bad Lands I kind of want to plan ahead, and I think it might be best if the cards come with the models. Or, maybe, cards are included with starter sets, but not for individual models sold separately? I’d still have the downloadable cards too, of course.
By my count, you would need 58 cards to update every mini from BWG "V1" so that could be the catch-up pack. Then, when it comes to the "V2" stuff (that hasn't been released yet) you could go with what WotC did with Axis & Allies: Angels 20 which was to have the starter sets contain ALL of the cards for that expansion round. So maybe Expansion Wave 1 has 20 total minis, you might have 10 of them in a Starter Set, but that Starter Set would contain not only 10 cards for the 10 figs included, but also another 10 for the minis you could get individually. That means you don't have to mess around with cramming cards into clamshells (since they would also be available for download) but it gives people a way to get the "proper" physical card, as well as selling more Starter Sets. Then when you get around to releasing Expansion Wave 2, you do the same thing, with a new Wave 2 Starter that includes all of the cards for that wave of figures.

This all assumes you have the expansion waves thought out beforehand, and wouldn't switch up which characters belonged to which wave mid-stream.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/06/22 19:35:59


Post by: Necros


I was thinking about that very thing.. updating the starter sets for each gang and including cards for every member of the gang even if they're not in that particular set.

But, what I've decided on now is just including the new cards with new minis. And doing the deck too, for the Kickstarter. Still waiting on my price quotes for that but I think having them printed professionally will be cheaper than print on demand.

So anyway, if you get an old starter set, you can download the new cards or I'll have a print-on-demand option for Wargame Vault.

After the current starter sets are sold out and I need to produce more minis, I'm planning to switch the gang starter sets to 3 minis to keep the prices lower, and they will have the current leader and current 2 professionals, and it will include the cards for them.

Then, there will be 2-man gang booster packs who have the current 2 henchmen (who will get promoted to professionals with the new cards).

And then, we'll have 3-man Henchmen packs that contain generic henchmen, all armed with the same weapon and just 1 card. Since they're more like reference cards and not used to track damage like Warmachine, I figured we could get away with doing just 1 card. Seemed like a waist to buy a pack of bandits, and get 3 copies of the same bandit card. And the hired guns and artillery will come 1 model per pack.

So also, the beasts will follow that same format. 3-model Werewolf Starter pack (with named character werewolves, not generic ones). 3-model Chupacabra Minions. Later on we'll do the 2-model boosters for them too with werewolves with different sculpts. Each skinwalker animal aspect will be treated pretty much like a human gang.

I'm waiting on some sample clamshells that will be slightly larger than an average playing card, so I'm hoping they'll be good and I can use them for packing. I'll probably get an extra card printed for each set that will have the product info on it, so I don't need to print clamshell backing inserts separately.

Also I have the updated full rulebook just about finished, probably tonight or tomorrow, so I'll post that when it's ready


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/06/23 13:46:59


Post by: Necros


OK, here’s the updated full rulebook. It’s still missing a lot of art, photos and diagrams, but the content is all there at least.

http://www.gangfightgames.com/download/1820/

Final count will probably be around 84 or maybe 88 pages after we add more art, but this will be the PDF I’ll have available for the Kickstarter. Price will be $20. For the smaller expansion book, that will just include all of the beast info from the big book, plus a few extra pages detailing the henchmen, gang building and rule updates for artillery.

As far as the rule updates go, I’m removing horses as I mentioned before.. I will add those old horse rules and an optional PDF for anyone that wants them, but currently don’t have any plans to make mounted minis. I’d like to some day, but I have a whole lot of on-foot models to get out of the way.

When making your own characters, skills won’t be tied to attributes anymore, you can just pick any skills you want up to your intellect level. And I added new game modes basically just recommended board sizes depending on how many models you have. A Dustup is for up to around 4 minis per side on a 2x2’ board. A Throwdown is up to 9 per side on a 3x3, and a Gangfight is 10+ per side on a 4x4. Those are minimum recommended board sizes though, if you really want to play on a bigger board, feel free

Also, I’ve decided to change the bounty hunter ability. Now, Bounty Hunters get a +1D6 to hit vs humans. Monster Hunters get a +1D6 vs Beasts, and eventually Witch Hunters will get a +1D6 vs Undead. I thought it would be cool having all 3 with a similar bonus. I haven’t decided yet, but I also thought about limiting the amount of professions you can have to 1 per gang.. so we don’t end up with people making custom gangs of 8 bounty hunters? Also just for diversity and stuff.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/06/25 00:38:07


Post by: Necros


Had to put this list together for the warehouse guys, thought I'd share.. After all of the current starter sets are sold out and we need to produce new copies of our minis, here's how the starter sets and support packs will work out for all of the gangs.

Bandidos Mexicanos Starter Gang
El Jefe, Cabo Mendoza, Esteban Cruz
Bandidos Mexicanos Support Pack 1
Susana la Loba, Diego Torez

Bloodwolf Tribe Starter Gang
Chief Bloodwolf, Boneshirt, Top Hat
Bloodwolf Tribe Support Pack 1
Spearman, Mohawk

Clancy Gang Starter Gang
Wilt Clancy, Lee Roland, Jacob Sparks
Clancy Gang Support Pack 1
Sam Winston, Nate Winston

Dockside Drifters Starter Gang
Dr. Belfree, Tennessee, Paco

Dockside Drifters Support Pack 1
Eddie Escobar, Mongo

Secret Fist Starter Gang
Mr. Foo, Chang, Dr. Hoo
Secret Fist Support Pack 1
Jen Choi, Wu Teng

Tranquility Crew Starter Gang
Captain Reinholdt, Adam James, Dr. Simmons
Tranquility Crew Support Pack 1
Reverend Sheppard, Julie

Vigilance Committee Starter Gang
Sheriff Dawson, Dr. Trent Dougall, Gramps Fillickson
Vigilance Committee Support Pack 1
Carl Williams, Jeb Williams

Widowmakers Starter Gang
Nightshade, Lily, Oleander
Widowmakers Support Pack 1
Buttercup, Wisteria

Wilde’s Rangers Starter Gang
Sergeant Wilde, Corporal Thompson, Private Ambler
Wilde’s Rangers Support Pack 1
Private Connors, Private Watson

The Gatling Gun and all current Hired Guns will still be sold separately.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/06/25 23:00:44


Post by: Frizzenspark


Fortunate that I have most of the gangs already; it makes it easier to continue... I've had some sets for a while and bought more after the demo I got at Origins.

With the upcoming Savage Beasts set, I was initially apprehensive, usually I'm a little reluctant to "stray from the script". I was delighted to see your concept; I'll likely support it fully.

A potential answer to your mounted issue is to use something like the Litko "Warhorse" Mount Marker which fits 30mm lipped base figures. http://www.litko.net/products/Warhorse%2C-Character-Mount-Marker-kit.html#.VYyGCTpREqQ


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/06/26 03:49:26


Post by: Necros


Thanks

I like that warhorse marker I was thinking if I ever was able to do something like a plastic model stagecoach kit, I'd have it where you can pull the top off and there's circles in the inside floor where you can stick a couple of minis inside. But plastic molds are so expensive it's just silly :(


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/06/26 13:10:30


Post by: Frizzenspark


I was delightfully disappointed with the SHIP NAKED folks; they didn't give me time to anticipate the arrival. I ordered on Friday and had it in hand by Monday.... I didn't get the pleasure of waiting and waiting........


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/06/26 17:56:41


Post by: Necros


Yep they're good people

I personally love how the only thing I have to do to ship stuff is click my forward button when someone places an order


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/06/26 22:06:46


Post by: Frizzenspark


I hope you can do a Mountain Howitzer to add to the Artillery Column; they are small and relatively common in the Western environs. I crewed one at Fort Huachuca as part of the garrison's memorial troop. you might be able to simply replace the gatling gun barrel with a cannon barrel. That would likely be the extent of 'typical" Artillery to add to the armoury.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here are some photos of the gun I served, in action (of sorts)





Decently sized for a friendly gangfight.

http://huachuca.army.mil/pages/btroop/index.html





What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/06/27 02:27:20


Post by: Shawnorchris


Some one else that has been to Fort Huachuca.

I was there in grade school while my father did a short two or three years there.

Beautiful base.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/06/27 03:19:04


Post by: Frizzenspark


So were my kids, The area leaves one with a taste for what BWG provides; Tombstone was about ten miles away; there were several Ghost towns; The Mexican border was not far off. If Cochise County, Arizona wasn't so landlocked, it would be the perfect locale for the game.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/06/27 11:20:39


Post by: CptJake


 Frizzenspark wrote:
So were my kids, The area leaves one with a taste for what BWG provides; Tombstone was about ten miles away; there were several Ghost towns; The Mexican border was not far off. If Cochise County, Arizona wasn't so landlocked, it would be the perfect locale for the game.


Yep.

(I did a few schools at Huachuca, and enjoyed all the various nearby sights.)


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/06/30 15:52:14


Post by: Necros


I like that howitzer and it wouldn't be too tough to make one work with the current gatling gun carriage.. but would it be useful in a gang battle? Like wouldn't it take a while to reload? I imagine it could be treated like dynamite in the game, only long range?

Anyway, I'm starting to update the current cards to v1.7 and giving the current henchmen their promotions. Here's the Clancy Gang PDF so far.

http://www.gangfightgames.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/ClancyGangWeb.pdf

I thought it would be cool to add their bio and stuff, and also break up each page based on how they will be packaged in the future, with a quick bio for each character. Is it obvious that you have to cut them out vertically, and fold in half across the top? Or will I need to include some instructions?

Also I was holding back and saving some other new professions for later, but I may add a couple more for 1.7. I think it'll give us some more variety for the henchmen character promotions, and other new characters we add later.

So I was going to add a "Town Drunk" or "Drunkard" .. can't decide which. But, they are always armed with bottles of booze, and they are able to guzzle a bottle in their Upkeep phase to gain +1 Stamina, +1 Strength for the rest of the turn, but also -1 Intellect and -1 Quickness. It's a cumulative buff, so you drink again next turn it will be +2/-2, but If any stat reaches 0, they will pass out and be out of action. I haven't really done any playtesting with it, but I think it will be fun even though there will be a little upkeep with it .

I'd like to also do something like a Miner or demolitions expert, who's good with dynamite. Did they have a name for the guy who always set up the TNT back in the day? I haven't decided yet if I want ot make that a +1D6 to hit, or maybe roll 2D6 instead of 1 for throwing range?

I was going to save the Witch Hunter and Spiritualist for the undead expansion though since they're more fitting there. Witch Hunters get +1D6 to hit undead, so they're kinda useless if there's no undead yet. Spiritualist will like a fortune teller who talks to spirits, and they can give your gang an initiative bonus.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/06/30 16:50:17


Post by: porkuslime


Have you given any more thoughts to Preacher/Reverend as a profession?


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/06/30 17:51:31


Post by: Necros


Yes I have, it's in the latest rulebook PDF

Preacher

A Preacher inspires your gang to fight on against dark and terrible things. When fighting against a Beast Pack or Undead Coven, all friendly models within 6” of the Preacher will recive a +1D6 bonus for Morale rolls as long as the Preacher is not out of action. Preachers also earn a +1 Stamina bonus.

If your Gang Leader is a Preacher, your entire gang will recive a +1D6 bonus for Morale rolls as long as the Preacher is not out of action.


I think I may change it though to allow the buff against any enemy not just supernatural ones. Currently there's only 2 characters that will change to the preacher profession, Father Al and Reverend Sheppard. Still thinking about if there's any other previous henchmen that could be one too.

There's also Ruthie Mae too, a girl preacher and new hired gun if we can unlock her in the KS. I've also been kind of thinking about saving her for 2 new Widowmakers, and pair her up with Azalea ... but it will take a while to get around to adding new characters to the gangs, I want to get the beasts fleshed out plus the 4 different henchmen types that will be 3 sculpts each. So my list is just getting bigger and bigger


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/07/01 00:07:24


Post by: Frizzenspark


Cannons can shoot quite rapidly; with a new crew, we were still able to consistently shoot three rounds a minute. The three privates could handle that, I'm guessing one turn load, one turn fire....

it would make a great a great objective as well.

I found a nice video where they take their time...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZfaWUE8flY


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/07/01 20:35:21


Post by: Necros


Cool.. I'll have to think about that one. I'm sure it could be done fairly easily though so we'll see where we're at after the next kickstarter

So.. about the Kickstarter, I'm thinking aloud and wondering.. originally I was going to offer the original gang starter sets for add-on items... but there's limited amounts left. And since the beasts will be packaged in different amounts I'm scared folks might get confused. Wondering if it would be better to only sell the updated v1.7 packaged stuff (3 minis in a starter, 2 minis in a booster, new cards included) ... and then just sell the "classic" stater sets on my online store separately till they're sold out?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and also, if I just list the new-format products in the campaign, folks will still be able to order older versions in the pledge manager if they want. I'm going to set that up the same way I did Mechadrome, where it's just a section of my online store and every backer's pledge becomes store credit, and you can spend that on stuff in the pledge manager section or browse around and spend it on other items in the store if you wish. just meant it might make the pledge levels easier to follow if it's all the same format and prices.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/07/02 15:55:34


Post by: Necros


Another thought popped into my head today.. should I do 2 more werewolf sculpts, so they have a booster pack to match the gang format? Was thinking it would be a pack of 2, but armed with weapons.. First one would have the primitive weapons skill and armed with a bow, the other would have the modern weapons ability, armed with a shotgun? Doing a re-pose of the sculpts we already have won't cost much.

I would do them as the first stretch goal in the campaign, so the funding goal will be for the Werewolf starter pack, Chupacabra minion pack, JW Clarkson mini and Werecatcher. First stretch goal would be the Werewolf booster pack. Next goal Bandit Henchmen pack, then back to beasts and get the jackalopes and werebears done, then more henchmen, and switch back and forth like that.

There won't be many beasts with ranged weapons, I thought this would be an opportunity to get a couple of them going right off the bat so they're featured in the beginning, and then I'll mix another one in here and there as we get other beasts done.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and, decided on "Moonshiner" for the drunk person profession
Moonshiner: +1 Sta (already added to stats). May drink Booze in your Upkeep phase to gain +1 Strength, but -1 Stamina until your next activation. This effect is cumulative, and will increase with each consecutive turn if you drink again, but if Stamina reaches zero, you will pass out and be out of action.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/07/02 22:37:26


Post by: Frizzenspark


Moonshiner..... I think you nailed it......


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/07/03 20:17:08


Post by: Necros


Finished updating all of the gang cards, still have to put them into PDFs and finish the hired guns, so hopefully I'll have them done this weekend or early next week.

Just had another crazy thought about the Kickstarter.. should I make it just minis and no rules? Folks that want the book and/or cards could just order the print on demand versions separately when they are ready? Or, would new players be put off and expect there to be a rulebook included?

Was just thinking, without including the book it would give me a lower funding goal and make things a lot more streamlined. There really isn't much room for profit in the print on demand stuff, but it's still a lot easier than having to order 1000 copies to get a good price. Maybe it would be better to stick to print on demand till I have a big enough audience to support a nice, big hardback book where I need to print 1000 or more?


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/07/06 14:29:33


Post by: Necros


I have the updated cards for all gangs all done now, plus the playtest cards for beasts. I'll post the PDFs tonight along with another rulebook update, mostly just spelling fixes and adding the info for the Moonshiner profession. Right now I still have the beast cards as generic beasts like 1 werewolf card for all, but named characters for the alphas. I think I’m going to change that though, and have all of the Skinwalkers be named character beasts too, each with their own stats and abilities and weapons in some cases, just like men. I’d like to do some alt sculpts that are more than just a different pose. It will take a little while to put those characters together so I’m keeping the same generic cards for now.

Since gangs will have a 3-man starter and 2-man booster I want to do the same for beasts. So we’ll have the 3 werewolves we have in now for the starter, and I decided the first stretch goal in the campaign will be a werewolf booster pack that will have 1 werewolf with a bow, and the other with a shotgun, so we can get some variety. Then going forward for the other were-things they will all have 1 alpha beast, and 4 different regular ones. Not all will have weapons, I just wanted to get a few different options going for wolves now since they will be first. I think for the other animal types I’ll plan to have 1 with a weapon and the rest more meleeish.

I also have some new art for the Bandit henchmen, I’ll post that tonight once I get everything uploaded, but I’ll probably put it up in the news & rumors forum


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/07/07 13:54:47


Post by: Necros


Got all the rules and cards updated now

http://www.gangfightgames.com/blackwater-gulch/rules/


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/07/07 15:46:30


Post by: fightcitymayor


Nice looking cards. I especially like using the painted miniatures photos as pictures.
(And I appreciate being able to tell the heart and the shield apart now! I will take full credit for that.)

Here's one thing: All of that black background is going to crush peoples' black ink cartridges. Any chance of a printer-friendly version with a less ink-intensive background?


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/07/07 17:05:30


Post by: Necros


Oh.. hmm.. I didn't think of that. I figured people that wanted a bunch of cards might want to order the print on demand versions. Right now the print pages are just sucking the content for print version of the card into the boxes.. so I would have to make whole separate versions of the cards with less black. it might take a little while but I can look into it.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/07/07 20:08:42


Post by: fightcitymayor


Come to think of it, you did say you were including the cards in the figure packs, right? If so it is probably less of a big deal. But at at some point it might be nice to have a more printer-friendly solution. Maybe just an Excel doc that lists 1 character per line with each column being an attribute. That way people can have the entire universe at a glance, and have the info easily printable. (I did this for BWGulch V1.0 but I'm kind of a data nerd so there's that. )


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/07/07 21:14:56


Post by: Necros


I was also planning on putting together 1-page gang roster sheets, along with a blank version for custom gangs too. maybe that would be better? They will have more brief info, just the name, profession, attributes and a list of weapons and skills. Probably not enough room to add all of the rules like the cards have on the back, and also have the characters listed on the webpage too. What I’d really like to have is 1 gang page, all integrated with the online store so you can buy the models, but also have links to download the cards and roster sheet, and displaying each character in the gang with nice artwork and model photos and all. Some day


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/07/09 12:29:29


Post by: porkuslime


OK.. why did you go with a lightning bolt for Stamina?

I understand the boot for speed, but lightning ALSO implies quickness


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/07/09 13:04:04


Post by: Necros


I was just thinking lightning = energy, and energy = stamina. I also thought a heart would work, but the heart worked better for HP. I tried having something that looked like a guy's torso but it looked dumb.. so not sure what else I could put there :(

I could maybe have the HP be a + and use the heart for stamina? Or would that be confusing?


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/07/09 23:43:12


Post by: Frizzenspark


They use lightning for Energy in "King of Tokyo"




What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/07/10 12:27:54


Post by: porkuslime


You could use a stylized skull for Hit Points and the heart for Stamina..

Alternately a small "barbell" like a strongman might work?


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/07/10 12:36:57


Post by: fightcitymayor


Hearts have equaled hit points since gaming began, so don't change that.
As far as Stamina goes, like Tim said, there aren't a lot of great choices, but if Stamina is another word for Energy then a lightning bolt makes sense.



What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/07/10 13:30:31


Post by: Necros


I was just thinking maybe something like a figure in a running position might work, but then would that get confused with quickness?

I kind of want something that will work for stamina and also for "amount of actions" since that's what it will be in BWG2.0, so I'm also trying to plan ahead. Quickness will be how many inches you can move for 1 action, so if your stamina is a 4 you can move up to 4 times, or you can move, shoot, move some more, and shoot again. Or shoot 3 times, then move and duck behind cover. So anyway that's also why I was thinking the lightning bolt would work good there.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/07/12 19:22:53


Post by: Necros


So, i've been wondering... Should I even do a kickstarter? I kinda feel like miniatures campaigns haven't been doing so hot lately for small companies anyway, and since I'm not going to be able to give away tons of stuff, I'm probably not going to get to the goals I hope to. Plus since these days you really need to have a finished product to promote and not an idea, if I'm at that point why not just release it the old fashioned way rather than making people wait?

So I was thinking I could start with the werewolf starter pack and new finished rulebook & cards, the following month I'd do the Chupacabras, then the next do the monster hunter and werecatcher.. and try to have something new coming out each month, even if it's just 1 or 2 minis. I think steady new releases will keep the game "new" and in the news more often and stuff, rather than trying to put all my eggs in 1 KS basket.

Anyway, just a thought. Haven't decide yet. but with all the delays I'm having with everything, it feels like this would just be the better way to go.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/07/12 23:21:21


Post by: Frizzenspark


I'm hooked anyways I will buy regardless of which mode you use....


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/07/13 02:26:02


Post by: fightcitymayor


 Necros wrote:
Plus since these days you really need to have a finished product to promote and not an idea, if I'm at that point why not just release it the old fashioned way rather than making people wait?
This is a good point. From a Kickstarter perspective, it's rarely comforting when you hear the designer changing plans mid-stream for a project that already has defined goals and pledge levels.
And you have changed your mind a time or ten about the future of BWG.
We still love you though.
(Now hurry up and get those custom dice on the webstore so I can buy them all.)


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/07/13 03:21:28


Post by: Necros


hehe my problem is I suffer from an extremely boring day job that makes my mind wander into "wouldn't it be cool if" mode. Plus I work best by bouncing ideas off people and seeing what sticks

I do have my KS goals planned out and no they wouldn't change once cast in stone. Right now I'm stuck trying to figure out the right goal prices and what all to include for the funding goal itself. It's looking like probably the first 3 werewolves + 2-wolf booster pack being the main goal for I think $5000, with add ons for the book and/or cards and other items. Then $8000 for the chupacabras, $10,000 for JW. Clarkson.. and then I'll have to see about the Henchmen, it might have to be $15000 since they will be all new and all unique sculpts... but I kinda worry it won't get that high :(

I was also thinking having every pledge over $50 gets a free hired gun or solo mini, and then at a certain level it would be 2 free minis and so on.

Anyway, it looks I'll finally be able to get the dice and extra goodies added to the store this week It took the warehouse guys a while to pack everything up.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/07/13 12:41:41


Post by: fightcitymayor


 Necros wrote:
I was also thinking having every pledge over $50 gets a free hired gun or solo mini, and then at a certain level it would be 2 free minis and so on.
... and everyone that posts on Dakka gets 20 free minis.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/07/13 14:26:41


Post by: Necros


Here is a quick WIP for the Werewolf archer



Was really just to get the position down. We’re going to make the bow more “indiany” looking rather than fantasy, basically just 1 piece with a leather grip, and bring the right arm in closer so on the mini it’s part of the chest (and less extra pieces) plus an arrow in the bow that he’s about to shoot. He’ll also get a quiver and I asked to a add a belt around the waist for more detail, since he’s standing up straight you can see the top of his pants better than the other minis and there isn’t much detail there. And I also asked to change the head a little so he’ll look different than the others, maybe closing his mouth just so he can be concentrating on aiming rather than about to bite you.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/07/15 15:21:46


Post by: Necros


Thinking aloud again I think I may have come full circle with my packaging dilemma. Since I am going to be having 5 of each type of werebeast, 1 Monster and 4 Fiends, it’s really the same as the current gang sets that are 1 Hero and 4 Professionals now. Maybe it would be better to skip the 3-pack / 2-pack idea, and instead stick to the same 5-man starters sets like now?

So, to start off with we’d have all 5 werewolves in 1 pack, followed by 5 werebears, and so on. It will be slightly cheaper to pack them all together, rather than 2 separate products.. and if the format ain’t broke, don’t fix it?

So then, we’d have 5-man starters, 3-man henchmen/minion packs, and 1-man Hired Gun / unique beast packs. They would all come in clamshells though, and without cards to keep costs down.

The only drawback though is it would mean that the stretch goals to unlock the next beast in the campaign would be higher, however due to the beasts all starting with the same basic 3D model, they are a little cheaper to sculpt overall than humans who all need to be unique, so maybe it won’t be so bad.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/07/17 12:39:22


Post by: fightcitymayor


I'm not married to any particular idea packaging-wise. I always presumed the less SKUs at retail the better. Unless you plan on most sales going through your own web-store, in which case you can package them however you want. Although if you go with no cards in the retail packages you should definitely call that out on the back or somewhere, so people don't freak out. (And to repeat what I said earlier: Think about a printer-friendly card solution.)


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/07/17 14:15:57


Post by: Necros


We're pretty much selling direct to customers right now, but there's some stores still ordering here and there. I'm not really worrying about retail at the moment, but when I get the beasts up and running I will start pursuing that again. Problem is boxes are more store-friendly, but I don't want to get boxes because they drive up the retail cost more than I think a few minis should cost.

So, the old box sets will still come with the cards they were packed with, and you can still play with those if you're new to the game, and don't want to look up the newer rules. When the minis repackaged and for new releases going forward clamshells insert will say something like "Visit us online at BlackwaterGulch.com for free rules and downloadable character cards!" .. maybe I can stick one of those QR code thingies next to it, so folks with phones can scan it and go right to the site.

Been thinking about the releases some more, I think what might be easier to do is have the 5 werewolves as the main starter set for beasts, but for other skinwalkers sell them separately. So there will be an Alpha Werebear sold by himself, and maybe a pair of werebats after that. Thinking that might give folks a lot more options since it will take quite a while to get enough beasts to even come close to the amount of human characters we have so far. So we'll get a lot more diversity sooner and can eventually expand into more beast starters later on when we have more beasts done.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/07/22 23:18:12


Post by: Necros


Part of the production process I rarely get to see Iron Wind sent me some pics of the molds. Here is the master mold for the Werewolves



And the beginning of the master mold for the Chupacabras


We're looking at 4 parts per mini, so eventually that will be 4 production molds per mini.

my master figures should finally be shipping out to me on friday So I'll have something fun to do while everyone else is having fun at GenCon.

And, ShipNaked should finally have the new items (dice & stuff) ready for me to sell on my store after they get back from GenCon.. so I guess around 2 weeks?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I just now realized the werewolf mold pic is upside down. Just spin your monitor around so it looks right


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/07/24 13:23:51


Post by: Necros


Got some updates for the new werewolf sculpts They're still not done, but we have some more stuff added in.

Here's the archer again.. still not done, but we're thinking of having it be like he just shot his bow and he's about to grab a new arrow.



And here's the Werewolf Ranger. I was going to give him a shotgun, but I think he'll look better with the bigger repeater. Still need to add detail to the shirt and belt and other stuff, but here he is so far



What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/07/28 00:13:19


Post by: Necros


More sculpt updates





What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/07/28 13:37:21


Post by: Necros


So, some good news... Master minis for the werewolves and chupacabras are scheduled to be delivered tomorrow! It will take me a little while to build and paint them (especially since I can’t prime them till this weekend since it’s going to be so humid here in Philly this week). After they’re painted the plan will be to finish the new rulebook and add in a bunch of photos, so that will be ready to show off in the campaign. If all goes well, I plan to launch the campaign around the end of August. Again it will be a 2-week campaign aimed at fulfilling quickly so we can jump right into the next mini-campaign

This week I’m also going to be submitting my first batch of the new character cards to wargame vault so I can get some test prints and make sure they look good. During the campaign I’ll be offering a full deck with all characters, or you can order just a 5-man gang deck separately, or print out the PDFs free. I’ll look into doing a more printer friendly card though soon.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/07/28 13:54:52


Post by: fightcitymayor


The minor changes you made to the archer/shotgun sculpts actually make them look a lot better. I wasn't really sure about the first set, but I like the updated look much better.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/07/28 14:06:46


Post by: Necros


Yep they look much better now I like the gunner the best right now, even though it’s a more static pose. I asked for some different heads, less teeth showing so they don’t look like a copy of the first 3. They’ll have the same kind of connector in the back so you could mix & match all 5 heads. Same thing with the tails. The gunner will probably have his gun and hand as a separate piece, and maybe his other arm too. For the archer we’re going to move his quiver hand up a little and stick some arrows in it so it’s more like he’s reaching for a new arrow rather than shoving his hand inside. I think we’ll probably have to have the quiver + hand attached to arrows as a separate piece that glues onto the back and wrist. I’ll see if we can add a bracelet or something where the joint is.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/07/29 23:38:44


Post by: Necros


Woohoo! Masters are finally here, time to get busy!

I'm putting the chupacabras together first, and it kinda got me thinking (again). I have 3 different poses, and was planning to sell all new minions and henchmen in packs of 3. I'm gonna keep it that way for the Kickstarter to make everything easy.

But, if you were just ordering online or buying in a store, would you rather have to buy 3 all the time (probably around $10-12), or would you rather be able to buy them separately, $4-5 each? (slightly cheaper altogether since you're just using 1 clamshell pack & insert card for the whole set)

Just thinking some folks might not want to be forced to buy a whole pack if they can get one separately, but at the same time that creates 3 new SKUs rather than 1... unless we did it like 1 random pose per pack?

Just thinking out loud.. any thoughts?


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/07/30 13:53:19


Post by: Necros


Next little issue.. trying to decide if the Skinwalkers should go on 30mm bases or 40mm? I'm leaning toward the latter. Here’s a quick pic I took with the chupacabras, 2 wolves and sergeant wilde for size comparisons (can’t see the good details on the bare metal unfortunately…)



The wolves are taller and bulkier than the average human in the game, I kind of feel like 30mm looks too small and I’m concerned they may fall over easier if it’s a top heavy model (these wolves aren’t too bad, but who knows how other sculpts will end up)… but, 40mm feels too big. The wolf on the left is on a 30mm, and the one on the right is 40mm. Should I make them all 40mm just to play it safe? I’m sure the werebears & bulls will be much bulkier, bats may have big flappy wings sticking out, etc. Since minions will be smaller, they can still go on 30mm bases.

Drawback is it’s a whole new size of bases I need to order, and they can only be ordered in batches of 1000 (when I’ll only need a couple hundred), the larger bases are also a little more expensive, but only by a few cents so I don’t think it will impact the price, and I should be able to use the same size clamshells.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/07/30 22:34:50


Post by: Frizzenspark


Hmmm... I would go with the 40mm.... even If I had to buy my own separately, they just look better and more secure on the larger bases.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/07/31 01:19:42


Post by: Necros


Finished building everything I think what I'll do for now is use the 30mms and paint them up. I'm going to paint 2 versions of Croatoan, since he comes with an alt right arm without the staff so that folks can build him as a generic alpha werewolf instead, and I'll use the 40mm for that one. It'll be easier to compare when they're all painted up.

Finished building, priming tomorrow





What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/07/31 03:41:03


Post by: fightcitymayor


 Necros wrote:
But, if you were just ordering online or buying in a store, would you rather have to buy 3 all the time (probably around $10-12), or would you rather be able to buy them separately, $4-5 each?
Since we're dealing with beasts, I think trios are fine. If there are any plans for unique "named" beasts, then maybe do those solo. But otherwise threesomes are fine & dandy.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/07/31 13:43:42


Post by: Necros


Yeah that was the plan. minions and henchmen are generic types and come 3 in a pack. Ideally, being cannon fodder types I’d want them to be cheaper, but since my cost is based on weight and they will weigh as much as any other mini, they’re gonna have to cost the same as anything else.. so a pack of 3 minis is gonna be in the $10-12 range (I don’t have any costs for the new minis yet). So thats why I was thinking some folks might want to be able to buy just 1 or 2 separately. But the plan right now for the KS is to have them in the full pack of 3.

I’m planning out the KS now, and I decided to go forward with these 6 minis as the “Savage Beast Starter Bundle”, my original plan all along. So a starter set for a pack of beasts will have 3 skinwalkers and 3 minions. The Fame points in the game should match a human gang since 3 minions starting at 50 points each come out about the same as 2 human professionals starting at 75 points each.

I will probably have them packaged separately though. 3 minions in a pack, 2 fiend-level skinwalkers in a booster pack, and solo Monsters / alpha skinwalkers. The werewolves with the ranged weapons will be the first stretch goal and count as a booster pack, so depending on how many stretch goals we can unlock, backers can create their own beast pack bundle by selecting any unlocked minion pack, booster pack and monster to lead them. And the bundle will be cheaper than if you were to select each pack separately.

For humans though we will have to stick to the usual 5 man gangs since they’re already packaged that way. Once the old minis are sold out and I need to start getting new copies made I’ll look into splitting them up the same way as the beasts. So far I have 4 different henchman packs planned, and eventually I’d like to start doing gang boosters with 2 new characters for each gang, but those are a ways off.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and also, for the human gangs, after the KS is done and as the old box sets get sold out, I’m going to go forward with changing them over to the solo gang leader pack, 2-man gang booster pack and 3 man henchman pack format just like the beasts. So there won’t be any box sets for a while, but I’ll have cheaper gang bundle options on my online store. Once BWG 2.0 rolls around I plan to have 1 retail-box style starter set for each faction. So there will be a new gang of humans, and a beast pack that has more of a variety of different things rather than all werewolves.

I haven’t really shared a lot of details for the undead faction yet, but I’ve decided to split them up a little. At first I was going with zombies, ghouls, wendigos (vampires), witches and creepy demony things. But I’ve been thinking it might be better to have the actual undead things as the undead faction, and the witches and demons would become a 4th faction. Demons are more like creepy posessed people though, not crazy malifaux stuff or 40k bloodthirtsters.

So in the end I hope to have a nice retail-friendly printed rulebook, 4 different starter sets, and a whole lot of different blisters/clamshells to add to each faction. As far as 2.0 rules go, I decided I’m not going to change it to the Mechadrome rules where stamina = actions and speed = how many inches you move. Rules will stay the same overall, 2.0 will just be more like a facelift. It’ll take a while to get to that point, probably a year or more, that’s why I decided to do the updated BWG1.7 book now as a kind of baby step along the way and work my way up to it with a series of small KS campaigns to get the new minis funded. And then, much later, I plan to copy off of Privateer and release new stuff for all factions in different themed campaign books/settings.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/08/02 13:40:24


Post by: fightcitymayor


Dude, you HAVE to make some stats for this gang of cowboy orcs (on Kickstarter right now):



What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/08/02 16:55:47


Post by: Necros


hehe maybe some day. I always wanted to do fantasy races in a western setting ever since I saw this little guy

http://victoriaminiatures.highwire.com/product/billy-bagshot-halfling-cowboy

I don't think it would fit with BWG right now but maybe something I could do later on as a new game. At first I originally planned to have lots of different games all using the same rules, that was before I knew how much work went into just 1 game


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/08/03 13:05:48


Post by: fightcitymayor


Well, if CMON can port Zombicide to medieval times then I have faith you can take the Gulch to wherever you want it to go.
One step at a time, of course.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/08/03 14:13:16


Post by: Necros


Who knows where we will go in the future I could slowly mix in some dwarf prospectors and miners some day and see what people think and then take it from there. Right now I have 4 factions planned, we have humans, beasts, undead. For the 4th I'm just calling them the Wicked right now, they will be witches and demons.. not 40k bloodthirsters, but more like posessed people. I also had plans for a gobliny faction of Tommyknockers, much later.

After the KS is done I'm going to invest in a copy of zBrush and start sculpting a lot of the minis myself, so that will be a big help in getting new stuff done a lot faster. I'll probably start with some terrain things first though till I learn the ropes.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/08/03 23:04:40


Post by: home_brew


just for fun it would be cool to have an alien faction. But it would be more of a "lol" factor, because of Aliens vs Cowboys and whatnot.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/08/04 00:43:23


Post by: Frizzenspark


Oddly enough, whatever will work, go for. I'm fairly close to the Corvus Belli Infinity folks (mostly through my Brother), they borrow quite proudly from multiple sources and weave all this into a fairly decent plot line; much like the addition of the parody minis in BWG. the old TV movie "Salem's Lot" might have some interesting ideas for adding Vampires and the undead. Mexico should be a geographical origin site for much of the mischief as well as areas occupied by portions of the Native population. The incoming settlers would be the source of awakening this supernatural threat.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/08/04 02:25:57


Post by: Necros


Yeah even though I don't play it or own a single model, I love infinity Some day when I actually have time I'll get into it. My long term plans are to get the 3 main factions set up (humans, beasts and undead) and then advance the game world and storyline in campaign books a lot like Warmachine does. Each one will have new characters for all factions and some will introduce new factions too.

For the Wendigo tribes, I am planning to give them a Mayan kind of theme since they liked to cut out hearts and stuff, and steal a little from the Dusk till Dawn movies, and mix in regular natives and some other cannibal stories like the Donner party, or the "bloody benders"

I think, as far as the fantasy races go, I might try and mix in some dwarf-looking prospectors or moonshiners some day and see how folks like it. I was hinting at that with the Traveling Zarconis circus gang, the ring master is a dwarf At first I was trying to base him on Sansom from Carnivalle, but the art came out looking more dwarfy.

For aliens, maybe, but they would be a ways off and I'd have to find a good way to balance them since they would have crazy advanced technology. Not ruling anything out, as long as we can work it in without it being dumb I liked the alien models that Wild West Exodus did, but I didn't feel like they fit with the westerny theme.. they just looked like sci fi aliens. So I'd want to do something different that will fit the game world and western theme better.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/08/04 15:59:55


Post by: Necros


more sculpt updates





Just about done. I just asked to add some detail to the arrow feathers and also the belts then these should be done


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/08/04 17:31:52


Post by: fightcitymayor


We really are on the same wavelength: I saw the archer and said, "Why does the fletching look like an airplane rudder?" Then I looked at the shotgun-toting dude and said, "Why is he wearing a bracelet for a belt?" So you're clearly on top of things.
Quick, what am I having for dinner?!


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/08/04 17:42:45


Post by: Necros


Fricassee of jackalope over a bed of mustard greens topped with a brown butter sauce?


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/08/04 18:44:38


Post by: fightcitymayor


OMG, HOW DOES HE KNOW?!?


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/08/05 03:59:07


Post by: Necros


Here's a WIP shot of the chupacabras and Croatoan so far



What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/08/05 21:29:51


Post by: Frizzenspark


Just because they're chupacabras, I would want them... seeing them makes that double!


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/08/06 14:43:11


Post by: Necros


These guys are pretty easy to paint there’s no guns or belts or pocket watches to worry about. There’s some fine details in the faces, but they’re easy to drybrush. I should have everything painted by this weekend, then I just need to take some photos and start building the KS page. I’m thinking it would be good to make a new how to play video though, so that might take some time to put together.

So I’ve been racking my brain over some of the Beast rules lately, mostly character creation. I’m feeling like it might be a little confusing for new players, so I think I’m going to change it up. We’ll keep the combat abilities that can be added instead of weapons, but I think I’m going to remove the “Animal Affinity” rules and replace them with professions. So, a Werewolf and a Werebear are basically the same, they get the same Beast traits, and then they choose a profession.

I was thinking of changing up the names of some of the professions for the beasts though, but they would have the same ability. So a human would be a prospector, but a beast would be a scout. Preacher would become Shaman, Doctor = Healer, Wrassler = Savage, Bounty Hunter = Manhunter, gunslinger = marksman?

And it will be the same way for other factions too, so it’s all more streamlined and easier to follow. Pick your faction, pick a profession, raise your attributes, add some skills and weapons or abilities and you're done.

Plus it would be cool to make some more detailed beast minis that could be shamans and healers and stuff, I think it will add a lot more character.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/08/07 16:35:47


Post by: Necros


Going to start putting together the beast professions, they will be “Callings”, as in call of the wild. Later on when we get around to developing them, the Wendigo professions will be called a Caste. Also decided to make a couple new ones that will be more unique to each faction. Infamous Gangs can have Engineers, Savage Beasts have Stalkers (+1D6 to hit from behind), and I’m thinking Ravenous Dead will have Necromancers (turn an out of action enemy model into a zombie).

In other news, I’m just starting to plan it out now but I’m going to try and get my first real official con booth at Origins next year. ShipNaked (Game Salute) can transport all of my products from their warehouse so I can sell em there so that will make transporting a lot easier for me. If I’m able, I’m hoping to have a store + demo booth combined into 1 so I’ll have plenty of space for demos… A little worried though, I’m definitely going to need to find some help. I’m a 1-man show and I’m gonna need to take occasional potty breaks

I don’t think I can afford a GenCon booth too, so if I do go there I would probably just run some official demos on friday and saturday like I did before.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/08/08 16:53:14


Post by: Necros


Doing some updates to the playtest rulebook now, I'll have it all together in a new PDF when I launch the campaign. I'll also be updating the beast card PDFs too to reflect the new callings. I removed the Animal Affinity abilities from level 5, and moved Modern Weapons up in it's place. Also, I removed the Call of the Wild ability since it seemed kinda useless, but I may add it back in as a skill, it just didn't seem like it was worth adding 6 XP for it. I replaced that with a new level 6 ability called Pick of the Litter, if your Pack Leader has that ability, he can add human henchmen to the pack as newly-turned skinwalkers who haven't transformed yet.


Here's what I put together for the Beast Callings.

Healer - Beast Packs often contain several members who are adept at using herbal remedies and potions to keep their Packmates fighting on under the direst of circumstances. These Healers were likely empathetic individuals prior to being turned, and have taken a support role among the pack.

Beast Healers receive a bonus of +1 Intellect. During a game, a Healer may revive a friendly model that is out of action. The Healer must move within 1” of the fallen model, and heal them instead of attacking. The Healer will make an Intellect roll, using the fallen model’s Stamina as a target number, however in this case you must roll at or below their Stamina level to revive them. Also in this case, rolling a 1 will not be an automatic failure. If the hurt model gets back up, but is taken out again, they may not be healed again by anyone and will remain down for the rest of the game. If your Beast Pack is lead by a Healer, any friendly model within 6” of him will also be able to heal fallen models.


Maneater - Some of the most vile of Beasts have honed their hunting skills to such a degree that they have grown into exceptional killers, taking pride in their work and bringing victory to their packs. A Maneater is truly a Beast to be feared, and put down with extreme prejudice.

Maneaters receive a bonus of +1D6 to hit when fighting against Infamous Gangs, and a +1 Strength bonus. If your Beast Pack is lead by a Maneater, any friendly model within 6” will also receive his Attack bonus.


Savage - Some Beasts just have a bad attitude. Savages are the first to snap when disturbed and relentlessly attack with brutal ferocity, favoring up close and personal assaults.

Savages receive one bonus attack in melee combat. Thus, a Savage would be able to make 3 1-handed melee attacks, or two attacks if they are wielding a 2-handed weapon. If your Beast Pack is lead by a Savage, any friendly model within 6” may also make 1 bonus melee attack.


Scout - Scouts often work closely with Wardens, keeping the Pack’s Den safe from trespassers. They know their way around their region like the backs of their paws, can always find the quickest way through the thickest brush, and how to use it to conceal themselves from enemies.

Scouts receive a +1 Stamina bonus. A Scout moves easily through dense areas, and this treats outdoor Area Terrain as Heavy Cover. If your Beast Pack is lead by a Scout, his Area Terrain cover bonus will apply to every friendly model within 6”.


Shaman - The spiritual guides of the Pack, a Shaman is an old, wise and respected Beast that inspires his Packmates to fight with brutal savagery. Many Shamans are centuries old, and have witnessed civilizations of men rise and fall in their lifetimes.

Shamans gain a +1 Stamina bonus. All friendly models within 6” of the Shaman will recive a +1D6 bonus for Morale rolls as long as the Preacher is not out of action. If your Beast Pack is lead by a Shaman, your entire Pack will recive a +1D6 bonus for Morale rolls, no matter how far away they may be, as long as the Shaman is not out of action.


Stalker - Using overgrown brush, large terrain features and dark shadows, these ambush predators will creep up upon unsuspecting victims and strike when least expected, and leaving nothing behind but bloody remains.

Stalkers receive a +1 Quickness bonus. A Stalking Beast will receive +1D6 to hit when attacking enemies from behind. If your Beast Pack is lead by a Stalker, any friendly model within 6” of him will also also receive his Attack bonus.


Warden - These Beasts are protectors of their domain and tasked with keeping greedy men away from Skinwalkers’ ancestral homes. Wardens are adept with ranged weapons, favoring bows, but some younger Wardens have been known to carry firearms as well, looted from their victims.

Wardens gain a +1 Ranged Combat bonus. They may give up their movement and take aim (though turning on the spot to change your facing is allowed). Wardens that take aim will lower their base Target Number to hit to 3 for ranged attacks, rather than 4. If your Beast Pack is lead by a Warden, any friendly model within 6” of him may also be able to give up their movement to aim.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/08/10 00:30:07


Post by: Necros


Here's the painted werewolves and chupacabras, you can click to enlarge em



I'm gonna be posting announcements for the Kickstarter in the new news & rumors thread here, but general chatty stuff down here as usual


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/08/10 23:44:19


Post by: Necros


A little disappointed. I got the prices back today and like I feared, they're higher than I wanted. The beasts are pretty big and bulky and have a few separate parts so it all added up.

Separately, Croatoan will have to be $10 thanks to his extra arm and general bulkiness. Shunka & Warakin (and other Skinwalker 2-packs) will be $14. The 3 Chupacabras and other 3 packs of minis that get unlocked will be $20. Then, I'll offer the full bundle of all 6 minis for $40.

The current gangs will be the same price though, but since the cost of metal has gone up since the last time i had them all made (1-2 years ago) when they sell out and I need to make more I'll eventually have to raise those prices too. They will stay the same for the KS and until I need to make more though

And then, new retail prices will be a little higher since I'll have to add in packaging :/ KS minis will come in a ziplock bag

So what I'm looking at for pledge levels is just $40 for the beast bundle. The sweet spot will be $70 for the 2-player bundle that will also have 1 human gang and 1 new rulebook. For a bonus, every $70 pledged gets you 1 free hired gun (so $140 gets you 2, etc). And depending on how high the funding gets I'll have stretch goals for extra bonus minis added in here and there as we go.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/08/11 01:00:59


Post by: Frizzenspark


The prices aren't so bad when compared to other games; Infinity from Corvus Belli is a good example, both games require relatively few miniatures and play better with more terrain.

I have started investing in Western terrain as opposed to Science Fiction terrain. Others have the future stuff; I am a little more enthused to work for the Western theme.

Time and energy being what it is; I have curtailed my miniatures gaming to a few games: Infinity, mostly due to my Brother's involvement and that I have met and really adore the Corvus Belli staff. I have been recruited to Bolt Action; I will limit myself to a rather nice Chindit/Gurkha force (instead of my Grandiose plans to represent all the British forces).. Additionally, I have some 15mm Revolutionary War minis that have been in storage (nearly completed) for over 15 years; a new set of miniature rules from Osprey which I'd like to try.

Lastly, of course, there is Blackwater Gulch; a fun, fast. game of Western Shootouts. My family plays some of the more exotic board games; BG serves as a nice step up to miniatures combining visual and tactile fun with the approximate ease of a parlor game.

One could assume that a formal group of players will have one or two players that will have the bulk of the miniatures and terrain and other players might invest in a gang or two. I appear to fit into a less formal setting, where I will have all the gangs and terrain and the game will be played like a boardgame, pulled from the shelf, or just as likely, in a convention setting.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/08/11 01:41:15


Post by: Necros


Yeah it is what it is and I think the prices are still fair, just was hoping for less. We still oughta be a good bit lower than Infitiny. I haven't looked into Malifaux lately though. But yeah I am aiming for the low model count quick & fun game. The biggest game I ever played was 12 guys per side. I think it scales up pretty good for folks that like that sort of thing, but I prefer around 7-8 for a good game, and you can still play in under and hour if you both know the rules.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/08/11 01:46:14


Post by: Frizzenspark


We took longer at Origins because we were all noobs; we attempted to overload our quite capable demonstrator, and nobody was stressing.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/08/11 02:12:35


Post by: Necros


Hopefully at origins next year you'll be able to overwhelm him in my first official booth ever


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/08/11 03:02:48


Post by: Frizzenspark


Need Help?


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/08/11 03:23:44


Post by: Necros


Yep I probably will First I have to see how well the KS goes though to see if I can afford it. 1 10x10' booth is $1000 :/ I think GenCon is more than twice that now.. last time I checked a few years back they wanted $1800.

I worry that 10x10 will be too small, I'd want to set up a little shop area and have 1 or 2 demo tables if I can, without it being super cramped. So I'll see how it goes over the next month or so


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/08/11 10:41:50


Post by: Frizzenspark


Well, I'm local, and as a Vet, I get a great discount for Origins... so my out of pocket costs are minimal.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/08/11 13:11:54


Post by: Necros


Cool, yeah I'll probably need all the help I can get. I asked Porkuslime to help out and hopefully he can get his club involved too

I'm not sure yet but I think you need a special badge to be able to do booth stuff.. like if you had to come into the dealer hall before it opens to set up or whatever. I emailed them lots of questions but still waiting for a response. So I think I'd have to buy a bunch of badges for everyone that's gonna help.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/08/11 18:29:11


Post by: fightcitymayor


 Necros wrote:
A little disappointed. I got the prices back today and like I feared, they're higher than I wanted. The beasts are pretty big and bulky and have a few separate parts so it all added up.

Separately, Croatoan will have to be $10 thanks to his extra arm and general bulkiness. Shunka & Warakin (and other Skinwalker 2-packs) will be $14. The 3 Chupacabras and other 3 packs of minis that get unlocked will be $20. Then, I'll offer the full bundle of all 6 minis for $40.
Ouch. Is that going to be a tough sell, considering the 5-person gangs are currently $15? Going from 5 humans for $15 to 6 monsters for $40 sounds pretty rough. Although the 5-person gangs were $30 in the not-so-distant past, I presume sales picked up once Game Salute cut those prices in half. I would just be concerned if my product went from being a value-leader proposition with a low price-per-fig retail cost to one of the higher price-per-fig rates in the space (that space being 28mm metal old-west miniatures.)



What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/08/11 18:56:20


Post by: Necros


Yeah that's what I was worried about the most.. going from $15 for 5 guys to $40 for 6 beasts. it's a huge jump but there isn't much I can do about it :(

Actually, $30 is how much the gangs should cost for proper retail prices. Right now it's old stock that Game Salute wanted to clear out, so they slashed the prices in half and that got things moving again.. but as the old sets clear out and new copies need to be made we'll end up going back to around that old price anyway. Another reason I wanted to switch to the clamshells with a couple models rather than box sets, packaging is cheaper. I think $30-40 makes more sense for a difference between the 2, since you get +1 model and also bigger, beefier Skinwalkers.

Maybe I can put something like "Special Kickstarter clearance price" on the old gangs, and let folks know the prices will be rising later? After the boxes are sold out they'll be packed in clamshells and probably come out to about $5-6 per mini, and the beasts will be a little more due to the bigger sizes or multi-part options.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/08/11 22:14:56


Post by: Frizzenspark


 Necros wrote:
Cool, yeah I'll probably need all the help I can get. I asked Porkuslime to help out and hopefully he can get his club involved too

I'm not sure yet but I think you need a special badge to be able to do booth stuff.. like if you had to come into the dealer hall before it opens to set up or whatever. I emailed them lots of questions but still waiting for a response. So I think I'd have to buy a bunch of badges for everyone that's gonna help.


You'll have to find out how many badges are available/come with your booth. I work the Dealer's room for Ohayocon; guards can be understanding if it's reasonably explained to them what it is you're trying to accomplish. Naturally, moving gear, security and set-up are the priorities.

Additionally, we may be able to cut your logistics train by using equipment and supplies that are already here. Banners and other identifiers should be considered at this point.



What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/08/12 13:23:59


Post by: Necros


I get 2 badges per booth I think, but I'm sure I can buy more if I need em.

One thing that's cool about having Game Salute / ShipNaked for my warehouse is they can bring all of my product so that's one less thing I have to worry about transporting myself. I was thinking I'd get a few 2x4' wall racks panels to hang all the clamshells probably along the back wall, and a table where I can set up some box sets and a cash register.. then 2 pub height tables up front for demos on 2x2 boards, plus a few stools and some tall banners on either side. I should be able to fit all that in my trunk

A little worried that will be kind of cramped in 1 booth though, but also worried 2 booths would look too sparse? Maybe it would be better with just 1 demo table more like a 3x3 card table?


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/08/12 18:55:30


Post by: Frizzenspark


 Necros wrote:
I get 2 badges per booth I think, but I'm sure I can buy more if I need em.

One thing that's cool about having Game Salute / ShipNaked for my warehouse is they can bring all of my product so that's one less thing I have to worry about transporting myself. I was thinking I'd get a few 2x4' wall racks panels to hang all the clamshells probably along the back wall, and a table where I can set up some box sets and a cash register.. then 2 pub height tables up front for demos on 2x2 boards, plus a few stools and some tall banners on either side. I should be able to fit all that in my trunk

A little worried that will be kind of cramped in 1 booth though, but also worried 2 booths would look too sparse? Maybe it would be better with just 1 demo table more like a 3x3 card table?


They're weird about demos, particularly in the dealer's room; check and see what you can get away with.

My badge is cheap, so use yours on whomever you will be bringing, (or keep it as a floater)

You should receive at least a table a white tablecloth and two chairs


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/08/12 19:29:03


Post by: Necros


oh .. hmm .. so demos aren’t really allowed? I noticed they were offering separate demo booths for like $500, but you have to have 1 merchant booth space for every demo booth space you get.. do they usually do demos in a different area? there was fine print that said something like “Demo booths can ONLY be used for demo games” or something like that. I’ve only ever been to Gencon recently and everyone had demos running in their main booths, folks just walked up and started playing, so that’s what I was going for here.

if I could get a corner booth I think I could get away with 1.. have a demo pub table on the corner, and set up the little store in the back corner of the booth, then there should be enough space to move around for shoppers and folks that wanna watch

I think at gencon they also make you bring your own tables and everything.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/08/13 04:08:13


Post by: Frizzenspark


They have a free-play area, which can be used for demos; it's at the far end of the building.... it might be an option. Porkuslime's games went rather well, he was asked to do more for the upcoming convention.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/08/13 04:22:06


Post by: Necros


Just finished the intro video




What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/08/13 05:42:50


Post by: rollntider


 Necros wrote:
Just finished the intro video




I am ready to pledge, $70 bucks is a fair price for 2 factions. I have 3 factions and about 6 or 7 of the indy characters. Can i choose bandidos for my other faction?

Will there be more firefly crew characters?

Also will I be able to buy new cards for my existing crew?

thanks


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/08/13 13:06:13


Post by: Necros


Yes, yes and yes!

You will be able to choose any gang for your pledge... and if the campaign happens to go well enough to unlock enough for a different beast starter, you'll be able to choose which one of those you want as well.

And yes there will be more characters for every gang. Here's Gina Blackburn, she'll get packaged with her husband, Helmsman Blackburn



For the cards, I'm thinking now I won't add them to the campaign, because they are kind of pricy to produce which means they'll be really pricey to buy if I want to make enough of a profit on them to not end up draining campaign funds. So I think what I'm going to do is have the PDFs like now, and then allow folks to order up packs of cards for the gangs they want directly from Wargame Vault. They'll be $1.50 per gang, but I'll put together a "all humans' pack and later on an "all beasts" pack too. If I included them in the campaign the price would probably have to be $3 per gang and I don't think that's a fair price for what they are


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/08/14 03:10:13


Post by: Frizzenspark


Since people are putting in requests, it would be great if you could add some Buffalo Soldiers to the Army ranks, such as those featured in the 1960 film "Sergeant Rutledge"



and as a statue at my former base, Fort Huachuca.






What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/08/14 13:01:37


Post by: fightcitymayor


 Frizzenspark wrote:
Since people are putting in requests, it would be great if you could add some Buffalo Soldiers to the Army ranks
That's actually a good idea, a Buffalo Soldier gang.



What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/08/14 13:53:05


Post by: Necros


Definitely a possibility.. either a gang, or maybe mixing a couple in with Wilde's Rangers?


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/08/14 14:55:47


Post by: fightcitymayor


 Necros wrote:
Definitely a possibility.. either a gang, or maybe mixing a couple in with Wilde's Rangers?
That would work too. Although I could see the Buffalo Soldiers being the "honest" frontier soldiers, almost a foil to Major Wilde's crooked, corrupt unit.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/08/14 22:12:22


Post by: Frizzenspark


I look at Wilde's bunch as Artillerists... (that's how I'm painting mine).

The Buffalo Soldiers could be Horse soldiers, likely sans horses, there was an image from the movie "Sergeant Rutledge" of a textbook dismounted Cavalry skirmish line (it wouldn't transfer over, but you'd find it inspiring.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/08/15 04:53:43


Post by: Tiarnan


I'm definitely in for some Kickstarter goodness. While we're tossing ideas about, a railroad work crew would be a great gang. A group of henchmen armed with picks and shovels, and of course, these gentlemen.



What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/08/15 14:02:51


Post by: Necros


Funny you should mention that, since The Norwegian's mortal enemy, the infamous gunslinger turned engineer Colin Buchanan will hopefully be making an appearance




Automatically Appended Next Post:
And also .. I'm starting to work on the KS page now.. I think I would probably have it all built in the next day or 2, so I'm thinking I may launch it a little earlier than next sunday.. maybe wednesday or thursday? Don't really see why I should wait for a certain day if it's all ready to go. Still planning on the shorter 2-week campaign though rather than a full month.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And also .. I just finished updating the Savage Beasts page on my site, it's got the current minis and concept art for all of the beasts I have planned so far, except for 1 Warden character I'm still waiting for

http://www.gangfightgames.com/blackwater-gulch/savage-beasts/


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/08/19 13:46:31


Post by: Necros


So.. planning to launch the campaign tonight and of course my site decides to not work today. Well it works, but for some reason it takes like 5 minutes to connect. Not sure if it's just my area or all over, but I tried from work and from home and getting the same thing. Can anyone test it and see if you can connect? http://www.gangfightgames.com

Emailed my ISP, but they're always slow to respond :( My store works fine, but that's on a different host


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/08/19 15:33:15


Post by: fightcitymayor


 Necros wrote:
Can anyone test it and see if you can connect? http://www.gangfightgames.com
It's funny you mentioned it: I was just updating FistfulOfGulch and wanted to grab a Gramps Fillickson quote and you are right, I got multiple '500' errors about an hour or so ago and could not connect. But ever since connectivity has been coming back. As of now it's slower than usual, but at least now it will load eventually.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/08/19 16:51:37


Post by: Necros


Looks like they finally fixed it, it's faster now.. still as slow as usual but I think that's because of all the big photos I have


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/08/20 00:57:13


Post by: fightcitymayor


Here's a question: Are the Savage Beasts cards ready yet? The link to download character cards from the Savage Beasts webpage goes to some new Clancy Gang cards.

EDIT:
I found the Werewolf Starter beast cards on the download page.
So next question: Are there cards for Wildeye & Rugaroo yet?


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/08/20 13:12:49


Post by: Necros


I didn't get Wildeye and Rugaroo done yet, I was gonna wait till I got the sculpt files for them so I can do nice renders of the minis since I never got concept art done for them. So I'll hopefully have them done in a couple days


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/08/25 16:22:16


Post by: Necros


Thinking about upcoming cons...

I think I'm gonna have to scrap my origins booth plans, I would have needed my Kickstarter to be up around $20k to get all the funds to cover a booth, I don't think that will happen. They do also offer an Entrepreneur booth for new companies that's are like half the price, but it would still be too expensive with all the hotel and gas and everything since I have to be there almost a whole week.

So starting next year around Feb, there's Cold Wars. Never been, but it's kinda nearby for me. I might see about demos there Friday and Saturday.

Next would be Adepticon in April i think.. That one might be a little too far, but I'd like to go if I can, and also do Friday/Saturday demos. I think the chances of going will be pretty low, but I'll see if I can.

Then Origins in June, I'm thinking if Porkuslime and his gang want to continue to run demos there I might skip it due to the travel costs and all, and instead maybe see about Historicon which is a little closer to me I think, and also around the same time.

And then at GenCon in August, I'd do the same friday/saturday demos if I can make it.

And then rather than a store booth I'll see if I can bring an ipad for orders or just hand out discount cards for the demoers.. though since I'll be packing up the new starter sets myself I could probably bring a few of them and some rulebooks with me just in case


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/08/26 14:39:32


Post by: porkuslime


Yep. We are down with running more BWG this coming con. We have added another session daily, so.. 50% more BWG and a second table we hope

However, since we cannot do retail in our area, I cannot sell direct to the marks.. I mean, players.

Was kinda hoping you could maybe get someone to go in with you on a booth.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/08/26 16:22:12


Post by: Necros


I think the coupon card thing worked pretty good, had a bunch of sales after your demos So I was thinking of doing the same thing this time, maybe also doing a nice quickstart rulebook folks can keep that’s maybe like 8 or 12 pages with the basic rules and product info in it.. like my own little white dwarf.

What I’m hoping i can do is get out to a bunch of cons next year and do lots of demos, and then hopefully build up enough interest and sales that I can do a booth or 2 for the following year.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Speaking of sales, I had a whole bunch of new web store sales when I launched the kickstarter. The game got lots of attention but i guess folks didn't want to pledge and wait for stuff that's already available now

So that was a nice little bump. I'm a little panicky about the campaign going slow but I think as long as we keep getting a few new pledges a day we'll finish on target. I was thinking though, if it doesn't work out, rather than rebooting I think I could just set up pre-orders on my online store for the werewolves and chupacabras, and then I'd be able to deliver them much sooner, probably November or December. I'd offer the same bundle deals as I have them for the campaign pledges now just to make it easy.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/08/26 23:05:16


Post by: Frizzenspark


Sorry that it seems that Origins might be a bust... (still holding out hope). I might be able to coordinate with Porkuslime to do some events/provide more coverage for the Convention.

There is a free-play area (that is unfortunately, out of the way) where some folks have set up demos. My Brother used to run Infinity Demos there.

I am painting my gangs and working on terrain (much of it inspired by Porkuslime's layout. I will eventually get some great in-home table action going.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/08/27 13:39:03


Post by: fightcitymayor


It's funny that you could draw a line on a map from mid-Ohio to Eastern PA and you would go through basically all of the frequent posters to this forum.
I think this calls for a special edition of the game entitled "BLACKWATER GULCH: Mid-Atlantic Rust Belt Edition!"
Maybe just a special limited-edition Codex will do.




What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/09/10 12:46:12


Post by: Frizzenspark


I'm curious if you could make a two player bundle out of existing stock; by putting the classic rulebook and two infamous gangs (with the possible added bonus of a hired gun) into a value set, for those not able to wait for the pre-order.

I had some thoughts about adding a mountain howitzer, mostly on crewing. with a crew of three or more, it can fire every turn; with a crew of two, every other turn; with one crew member, it'll take three turns to fire that bad boy. You'll want to adjust for having engineers or additional crew as to speed and accuracy. They have two primary types of rounds, roundshot and grapeshot/canister. The roundshot is one big cannonball, lots of damage if it hits.... canister is like a large shotgun blast. There is also the Spherical Case Shot, which is effectively a grenade. The following PDF from the National Park Service breaks it down fairly well.

http://www.nps.gov/fols/planyourvisit/upload/The-Howitzer.pdf

The key is that can a player afford to have their gang members crew a cannon as opposed to other pursuits... wonderful trade-offs in play.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As an amusing addition to the Mountain Howitzer post is an articl where a hunter used a Mountain Howitzer to bag a white-tail Deer...it has some useful information as well.

http://www.buckstix.com/howitzer.htm


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/09/10 20:55:05


Post by: Necros


I'm planning to do a real 2-player starter box, but probably not till next yearish. What I want to do is 3 new men and 3 new beasts. The minis would be mostly 1 part to keep them cheaper, and it would include quickstart rules (updated version of what came in the old starter sets) and character cards


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/09/23 17:52:18


Post by: Necros


So now I’m thinking about how to handle Henchmen. They’re all going to be regular townsfolk types, 1 weapon and a couple of skills. I want them to come in packs of 3, since 3 henchmen = 2 professionals as far as XP/Fame goes. What I was going to do is have a pack of 3 of all the same type, so you’d get a pack of Bandits and they’re all armed with just 1 pistol. This was going to be done to match the Beast minion format where you get 3 of the same type with different poses.

Now I’m kind of wondering if I should break that up a bit more… and have 3 different types of henchmen in each pack. Would you rather see 3 guys all armed the same, or 3 different ones?

And taking things a step further, would you rather see them packaged more as official parts of a gang, or generic? So, “Clancy Gang Henchmen Pack” and “Secret Fist Henchmen” … or “Outlaw Henchmen” and “Chinese Rail Workers” ? Going the former route, I was thinking that might be a good way to reach a 10-model max for each gang… when the old sets get repackaged the gangs would all have a 3-man starter, 2 2-man booster packs, and then 1 3-man henchmen pack.

So 3 options… 3 different guys all armed the same. Or, 3 different guys all armed differently. Or, 3 different guys all armed differently and part of a gang. What do you folks think would be the best way to go?

I’m experimenting with my own 3D sculpts now and I think I’d like to start working on the henchmen sculpts myself, and have my other sculptors work on the beasts. It will probably take me a little while to get proficient enough to make something I think is good enough to want to sell it, so right now I’m just practicing while I have some time to spare before the minis show up and I have to start packing up all the preorders. After they’re all shipped I’ll have more time to spare sculpting new stuff


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/09/24 01:22:49


Post by: fightcitymayor


One cat's opinion:

It would be kinda disappointing if all 3 Henchmen were the same. So why not have 2 of the 3 share a similarity, and then have the 3rd be different. So there is a slight theme, but also something unexpected.
And I like that idea of semi-attaching them to a gang, like you mentioned with "Chinese Rail Workers" so it becomes kind of obvious where they might fit in (with the Secret Fist gang) but they aren't mandatory for that gang.
If you did 3 identical henchmen AND assigned them to a specific gang, that would be the worst, because it feels like you're just ticking off boxes on a checklist at that point. It loses some of the fun and creativity of the game by limiting player choice.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/09/24 12:37:59


Post by: Tiarnan


The cat has a good opinion, which I agree with. Making the third henchman one which is different but supports the others is the way to go. It also keeps human gangs different from the beasts, where you have a pack of similar small monsters.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/09/24 13:19:53


Post by: Necros


Cool, yeah that's kind of what I was thinking.. mix them up so there's more variety.. then I started thinking it might be good to add them to different gangs, but I think I'd rather keep the official gang members more like the tougher elite guys.

I think what I'll do though instead of having every henchman with a pistol be a "bandit" with the same exact stat line, I'll give them all names and unique stats .. the stats will be mostly similar though just because they only get 10 points to spend raising attributes. So that will make them more like wimpy Hired Guns who will fight for anyone.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/09/24 22:34:22


Post by: Frizzenspark


There should be some generic henchmen; which fit into the bulk of the groups; naturally, you'll have some "ne'er do wells" to fill out the ranks as well as upstanding citizens that are well intentioned and motivated, but might not know which is the business end of a shootin' iron....


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/09/28 03:34:17


Post by: Necros


So, I'm just starting to learn to sculpt with zbrush. This is just the basic T pose so far and his clothing needs lots of detail and he still needs a gun, but here's 4 days worth of sculpting so far (i have a lot to learn). Another week or so and maybe I'll have him finsihed and looking a lot less blobby And I gotta get rid of that ken doll hair...



If all goes well when he's done he'll look like the guy on the left here





What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/09/28 18:38:10


Post by: Necros


I spent a lot of time on that guy, but I think I’m gonna scrap it and start over. There’s lots of things that aren’t coming out right and I think it’s because I started out with a premade guy and sculpted the other parts onto the body. I think I’m gonna take a step back and try and set up a good workflow to use for all of the minis and have lots of extra bits saved like guns or heads or hand positions.. then I can add those onto the bodies and eventually put stuff together quicker. That’s one of the awesome things about Zbrush, you can download or create your own “brushes” full of all kinds of objects that make it easy to add lots of details. I already have 1 file full of guns from back when we did the rebels & reinforcements campaign, so that will be a good one to start with and start adding on new stuff.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/09/29 13:08:47


Post by: Necros


In other news, I know I've been back and forth over this 87 times, but I finally decided to include the new cards with the new models after all. This is mostly because I decided to do the packaging myself (so I'm not charged for every item that goes into a pack) and because I decided to go with a clamshell that will be big enough to hold them.

The old starter sets currently in stock will still have the old cards though, not much I can do about that. But I'll still have the PDFs online and print on demand options. Eventually when old stock sells out and I need to produce more, those will get packaged with the newer cards since I'll be doing the packaging.

So now my question is... for the Chupacabras and other minions in the future, you get 3 in a pack and they all have exactly the same stats. So, do they get 1 card, or 3 copies of the same card? The former way would be like if you were to use the cards more as a reference sheet, the latter for if you want to have 1 card to represent each mini on the board. When I play, I like to flip over someone's card so I know their turn is done, and then I discard it when they're out of action. So I see the value in having 3 cards, but I prefer to just do 1 card to save money So I'm torn...


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/09/29 13:45:05


Post by: Tiarnan


My preference is one card per model for the reason you mention, but also if the models get used in different packs, each player will need a copy.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/09/29 14:04:06


Post by: Necros


Yeah, I was just thinking I could take a picture of each mini by itself, so each card would have a different photo and then the same text & stats. Doesn't cost anything more to have different cards vs 3 identical ones, they're all the same print on demand cards.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/09/30 13:36:00


Post by: Necros


Next little issue about the cards. For the print on demand cards, Wargame Vault says you need to order a minimum of 10 cards.. which means if you just want to order the 5 cards for a gang starter, you need to add on 5 more from another gang. Plus, their minimum shipping price will be kind of high for just a few cards, something like $2.50.

So, I think for the gangs I'd like to do it as 1 big "infamous gangs" deck, which would be a total of 58 cards if my math is right. Then as new characters are released, the deck will get updated with their cards .. and of course those new cards will be included with the new models too, the print on demand decks are more like for replacements or if you want to collect a full set or whatever.

I also thought I could do it the same way for beasts, having 1 big deck we're always adding to... but I wouldn't create that until I have at least 10 different models worth.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/10/03 17:38:51


Post by: Necros


So, I decided to go back to the drawing board (or wacom tablet?) and start that bandit guy over from scratch. This time, instead of using that muscley guy as a base mesh, I used Zbrush's built in male guy, I wanted to make sure I can get the proportions right... but then I ended up changing that around anyway, because of heroic mini proportions. Things have to be more exaggerated to look right when printed. This are going more smoothly now that I'm learning how the program works.

So here he is now. Now I'm going to finish adding most of the details to the rest of the clothing and head and then pose him, and then do the final details at the end.



What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/10/06 04:07:56


Post by: Necros


More progress Took a while to get the pose right.. still a lot of tweaks to do to get everything lined up. But now I'm going to start adding in the detail, lots of folds in the fabric and stuff like that, after that I'll tackle the face and hair and add the gun at the very end. I already have the guns all done, I have a file with all kinds of guns from back when we did the rebels & reinforcements sculpts. I'll probably chop off all the fingers rather than trying to twist them around the handle, then I can resculpt the fingers around it. So, here he is so far...



What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/10/06 09:59:17


Post by: Frizzenspark


Not bad looking at all


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/10/06 14:07:14


Post by: Necros


Thanks he still has a ways to go and I still have a lot to earn. Posing was kind of a pain, but I’m getting the hang of it. All of the videos I watched said you should add all your detail, then pose, then resculpt your detail since it will be all warped… which sounds really dumb to me. So I’m going to go with basic sculpts, then pose, then do final detail at the end. Seems like a big waste of time to finish all the detail, then break it, then fix it. I think it’s mostly because it’s easier to sculpt when you can keep things symmetrical so the left and right side both happen at the same time, that’s why they do em in a T pose first. But shirt wrinkles aren’t going to be the same on both arms.

I think the gun in his left hand is gonna have to be a 2nd piece, so I think I’m gonna sculpt that separately and import it.. then at the end I’ll attach it to the tab under his feet so he’ll still only need 1 mold.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/10/09 03:08:39


Post by: Necros


A little more progress Next I'm gonna mess up the hair a bit, and then chop off his gun hand and make that a fist and separate piece. I'd like to add some detail like fancy stitching to the holster on the gunbelt, but I'm a little worried it won't really come out since it will be so small.



What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/10/10 00:57:27


Post by: fightcitymayor


I don't know if you're familiar with Wild West Exodus, but those guys use 3D modeling exclusively and you can tell because their sculpts (although nicely detailed) look like a bunch of zombies pointing guns in the air. Maybe it's difficult to really excel at 3D modeling, but apparently it's easy to do a crap job because those Wild West Exodus sculpts are terribly static and convey almost zero movement or fluidity. They just look like cigar store Indians, or immobile statues. Here's hoping you find the right answers.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/10/10 01:39:35


Post by: Necros


Yeah, I like some of their sculpts but to me they're more of a sci fi game in western clothing. I like 3D sculpts though because from a production standpoint it's so much easier to manage, and it's easier to correct or make new poses without having to get a whole new sculpt done from scratch. And then there's all those times I had european sculptors send me stuff and the greens get stuck in customs for weeks and weeks

I'm just learning the ropes with 3D sculpting but hopefully with practice I'll be able to make some nice action poses. This guy I'm working on was more of a static pose in the art, and since he'll be a henchman I want those to be as few pieces as possible to keep the prices lower. And I thought the more static poses would be good to start with to learn the program works

It's been pretty fun so far, and if I can take over even half of the sculpting work that'll help me grow the whole product line a lot faster.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/10/10 19:29:33


Post by: Necros


And here he is again this time from more angles. I redid the holster and added some detail to try and make it look more like a folded over piece of leather which is what most gunbelts looked like, I went and did some google images searching for ideas. Also added some more hair and twisted the fingers around his gun... but they aren't looking right to me. SInce the gun has the a separate piece for the molds I'm gonna just slice off the hand and resculpt that from scratch out of a sphere.



What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/10/19 14:23:36


Post by: Necros


Just a little progress report for the preorders. Iron Wind is finally going to start on the production molds this or next week. They’ve been really backed up lately. At any rate, I should have the metal bits in my hands in a couple of weeks, then I’ll pack everything up and start shipping. Everything is still available for pre-order though, I guess I didn’t really need to set an end date for the ordering, I’m getting a whole lot of extra stock.

In other news, I’ll be finalizing the printable stuff this week. I got my first sample of the new rulebook the other day and it came out great, but I have to make some small changes since I decided to include the cards with the minis now. I’ve also been flipflopping back and forth over whether or not to include the campaign rules or do a separate supplement later on.. but I decided to keep them in the book after all. And then later on I hope to put together a few separate story driven campaign books, each one with maybe 8-10 different scenarios to play plus rules for special new characters or professions. I may use that method to introduce the Undead faction later on too, rather than doing another new rulebook. I want to try and keep the rules cheap and / or free.

I also just ordered the 3D prints for the 2 new werewolves, Rugaroo and Wildeye, and also the Werecatcher artillery piece. I’m expecting to release those early in the new year. After that I’ll be planning to release a henchman pack followed by the Werebears, but they haven’t been sculpted yet. My free trial for Zbrush ran out, so now I gotta shell out $800 for the real thing. Yuck. Will be a worthy investment though since it will save me a lot in sculpting costs over time and I’ll be able to get future releases released a lot faster


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/11/04 14:51:21


Post by: Necros


Another quick update on the preorders.

I have all of the minis packed up now. Since they’re all multiple pieces I decided to put each werewolf and chupacbra in their own little ziplock bag so it will be easier to see which parts go together. What I’m going to do is ship the pre-orders in ziplock bags rather than retail clamshells, including any other models people ordered. I’ll get the preorders shipped out first, then the remaining models will get the retail packaging and sent to the warehouse. There were a couple of folks that ordered some things I don’t have like building kits. Those few orders will be coming from the warehouse instead of me just because it will be easier that way.

As far as shipping goes though, I’m still waiting on the cards and new rulebooks to show up, so I’m going to say it will probably be another 2-3 weeks before things start shipping. But it will still be a lot sooner than Dec 31

In other news, I’m still waiting for my prints for Wildeye, Rugaroo and the Werecatcher. I should hopefully have them in the next couple of weeks then I’ll ship them off to get master molds done. I’m still hoping to be able to release them early next year. Knowing how making stuff always takes way longer than I planned I’m gonna guess they should be ready to for sale around Feb. I don’t think I’ll do preorders for those, I’ll just release em the old fashioned way


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/11/17 16:29:14


Post by: Necros


So as of now, I have shipped all of the pre orders that I was able to ship myself. The big box of everything else was sent to the warehouse on Saturday and they should be getting that today or tomorrow, then they will ship out the remaining few orders that included buildings and other items I didn't have.

So I'm hoping by the end of the week all of those remaining orders will go out, and I'll be able to officially release everything next week

As an added bonus, anyone that ordered original gangs with their beast preorders also got new updated cards for them. In some cases I shipped those separately if your order is going to be coming from the warehouse instead.

I'll also be setting up the print-on-demand cards & rulebook on Wargame Vault this or next week, if I can tear myself away from Fallout 4


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/11/17 18:53:04


Post by: fightcitymayor


 Necros wrote:
I'll also be setting up the print-on-demand cards & rulebook on Wargame Vault this or next week, if I can tear myself away from Fallout 4
You and me both, bro. Damn super-mutants are eating up all of my damn ammo!

I received my pre-order today, and I plan on assembling them soon (when I'm not playing Fallout 4.)
Maybe I should toss a preview up on my Fistful of Gulch blog.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/11/17 21:19:46


Post by: Necros


Already thinking about adding a new werewolf character named Dogmeat


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2015/12/08 21:14:48


Post by: Necros


Coming soon to a Gangfight Games Online Store near you!

I'm going to start offering the BWG minis separately. I have boxes and boxes full of loose miniatures, usually where there's 1 guy from a gang missing so I need to order more copies of him to make more starter sets, but since I still have starter sets in stock I've been hesitating. So I've been thinking about just selling them separately, mostly just as is with just a base, no card so packing will be easier / cheaper.

And I thought having them listed separately would give players more options for building their own custom gangs. I think most would be $4-$5 each, except the new beasts since they are bigger and have a lot more pieces they end up costing a more to cast, but I'll split them up into solo packs too. Will be a lot of work though, creating 45 new SKUs and packing them all up in clamshells, so that will probably be my xmas vacation project I've been thinking about rebuilding my online store with a plugin for my regular website so everything is all in 1 place and then I won't need the separate online shop, so I might look into that now too.

I'll still be offering the starter packs for a cheaper price though for folks that want the whole set, just making more options for folks this way


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/02/04 19:38:04


Post by: Necros


In other news, the new werewolf minis and Werecatcher are almost done. I just got the master samples and they came out great. It should take a couple more weeks to get the production molds done and get my first order all packed up and ready for sale. Not going to do pre-orders, I’ll just release them when they’re ready. What I’m going to be doing is releasing them 1 at a time, so we’re going to start with Wildeye (the one with the bow), and then next month will be Rugaroo, and then the Werecatcher the month after. It’s a lot more affordable for me to break it up like that and it also helps keep us in the news more often

I’ll have photos to share as soon as I get them painted up!


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/02/22 15:30:07


Post by: Necros


I’m starting to feel like I may have made a mistake with the bases for the werewolves. If you bought those models, what do you think? Are the 30mm bases too small? or just right? Should I have made them 40mm? I feel like 40mm is a little too big, but 30mm is a little too small. Too bad there’s no 35mm bases in the same style :(

I’m painting up the sample master minis for Wildeye and Rugaroo, and they just feel like they need bigger bases the more I work with them. Since Skinwalkers are bigger and bulkier than your average man, maybe they will work better that way. When I get the werebear minis done they will be even bulkier than the werewolves too.

Would it be bad form to have their bases be 40mm, while all the other werewolves are 30mm? What I thought I could do is if a customer ordered the first 3 wolves, and they order the new ones when they’re done, I’ll just throw in 3 extra 40mm bases for free… and then repackage what I have in stock for future orders. I’d still keep the minions on 30mm’s though.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/03/01 01:45:22


Post by: Necros


Finished painting Wildeye and Rugaroo. I should have them all packed up and ready for sale in a couple of weeks, just waiting on the production minis to get made



What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/04/06 13:50:03


Post by: Necros


Here’s a WIP of the first Werebear sculpt. Still some work to do, we’re gonna make him a little wider & chubbier and also give him a bit of a fur texture since bears should be fluffy. There will be 3, this one will be a Savage, then we’ll have a Healer with a big totem staff and a Warden tossing a big barrel of beer (or gunpowder?)



These are going to be bigger models, they’ll come on 40mm bases. They’ll be sold in a big pack of 3 as a Werebear starter set, but it might be kinda pricey due to the bigger models.. so I was wondering if I should sell them as solo models instead? Then I started thinking, maybe I could do a small KS campaign for them and have a cheaper bundled price for all 3 as the main pledge level? I would also go ahead and get the Jackalopes sculpted next as the first stretch goal, they would be a pack of 3 like the Chupacabras.

Since I already ate the price of the Werebear sculpts, the funding goal would be pretty low, I would just need to fund the cost of the molds + the first 50 or so copies of the minis. I’m thinking it would only be like $800.. but then the Jackalope goal would be much higher, probably $2000 since they haven’t been started yet. I’d still have to wait to get the werebear master models done and painted first though so it could be a while.

Last time I did a KS it didn’t work but I ended up having so many regular sales it didn’t matter, I ended up making enough to fund the werewolves after all. So worst case I’m hoping for a similar result, best case I can get these minis funded and hopefully even more beasts done.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/04/08 23:26:37


Post by: enfield


Kickstarter, pre-sale, what ever.
I am giving you money for these wether you like it or not.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/04/09 03:42:53


Post by: Necros


hehe, well the Kickstarter is shaping up in my head. I'm going to go ahead and also have the Jackalopes sculpted, and one monster hunter hired gun that I hope to do as a bonus mini.. so I'm going to plan to try and unlock a couple of beasts and then throw in a new human character and go back and forth like that depending on how high we can get. I have plenty of art on deck so there's lots of new characters just waiting to be sculpted


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/04/11 14:24:42


Post by: Necros


Thinking about this next campaign, I decided to hold off on the fantasy sculpts I was going to start soon and instead stick to BWG for now. So what I’d like to do is have these Werebears in a pack of 3, and a pack of 3 jackalope minions as the Savage Beasts pledge. And then also put together a new monster hunter gang called the Unsung, and they will have a 3 man starter + 2-man booster (which will be just as tough as the 3 jackalopes in game terms since they are tougher gang members). So they will go in the Infamous Gangs pledge which will probably be a bit cheaper since the werebears are going to be bigger models. And then I’ll have a 3rd sweet spot pledge were you can get both for a discounted price.

I was going to have add-ons for all the current models, but maybe I should leave them out since folks can just order them online and get them faster? Not going to include rules or anything else in the campaign, just minis. I think the initial goal will be kind of low though, since I’m going to cover the sculpting costs, so the campaign will be to fund the molds and production minis. Stretch goals will be a bit higher though, roughly $1500 per mini, since those will have to be sculpted from scratch. I have plenty of beasts on the list for stretch goals, and I would also try and get the circus gang funded too, the Traveling Zarconis, and if it does really well I have plenty of art done already for booster packs for the original gangs too so they could get some reinforcements.

And also it’s going to be just the minis from now on, not going to be including character cards, that will make packaging a lot easier and cheaper. I’ll still have downloadable cards and print on demand cards. In fact I’ve been meaning to go back to those cards I have on wargame vault now and separate them into sets for just the gangs only rather than one big pack for all gangs.

So anyway, I’m hoping if I can get these sculpts done ahead of time I’ll be able to fulfill the KS a lot faster. What I’m hoping to do is be able to do small campaigns for just minis every 6 months or so


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/04/12 04:31:26


Post by: MacCall


I think you can get some attention, when you put some Tranquility Crew Menbers for Stretch Goals.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/04/12 14:12:58


Post by: Necros


They will get some reinforcements I have art done for Gina Blackburn, the helmsman's wife. I'll probably have Dr. Simmons' little sister Brooke done next

What I'm planning for new sculpts right now is starting off with 2 new starters.. Savage Beasts will get 3 werebears & 3 Jackalopes and Infamous Gangs will get the Unsung gang with 5 minis

For stretch goals first we'll have the Jersey Devil monster pack, followed by an Unsung booster pack of 2 more guys. After that I'm going to alternate between packs of beasts and men, so we'll do 3 werecats followed by 2 new Clancy Gang characters, 3 Cactus Cat minions, 2 new vigilance committee, etc.

I'm not planning to give away lots of free things, because that's what messed up the old campaigns and drove them into the red. Instead I'll just be offering discounted prices.. so all of the minis will cost a bit more when they are released later on. I'm thinking probably around 25% off.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/04/13 15:42:55


Post by: Necros


Giving things some more thought .. I was thinking of maybe changing up the packing format. For the fantasy game next year, I was planning to do 4-man starter sets that have 1 hero, 2 henchmen and 1 minion. And then 2-man booster packs that would be either 2 henchmen level characters or 2 minions. Maybe it would be good to update things to that format too?

So for the Kickstarter I would have 1 Infamous Gang and 1 Savage Beast start set, but I would have the beasts more varied.. it would include 1 werebear leader, 1 werecat, 1 werebat and 1 jackalope. Then, separately I’d do a booster pack with those 2 other bear sculpts I’m getting, and a minion pack with 2 alt jackalope poses, since I already asked the sculptors to make 3 of each. So that means I’ll have to get that cat and bat sculpted too now, but I think it will be better that way rather than having 3 of the same exact type of beast.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/04/21 15:17:58


Post by: Necros


Been planning out the new KS campaign. It’s probably not going to be until late summer / early fall just because I’d like to get as many sculpts done ahead of time as I can, and most of my sculptors are busy until June. Right now I’m planning to change to a more “retail friendly” format, doing everything in box sets. Each gang will get a Starter Set and an Expansion Pack. I wanted to up the model count because the packaging gets too expensive when it’s smaller amounts of minis. I’m going to start off the campaign with 3 4-model starter packs for 3 new gangs..

Unsung will be the new human gang, they will have J. W. Clarkson the Monster Hunter, Ruthie the Preacher, Colin Buchanan the Gunslinger and a scout henchman.

Wormwood Wardens will be the new Beast pack, and will have 1 Alpha Werecat, 1 Werebear, 1 Werebat and a Jackalope minion

And I decided to get the undead faction going now too, so the still unnamed Ravenous Dead coven will include 1 Wendigo Elder, 1 Revenant, 1 Brujah and 1 Rake minion

I’m not really planning to update the current rulebook with the undead rules though, I was just going to make a PDF for now. Eventually I want to put together a nice BWG2.0 rulebook that will be based on the new skirmish rules, but it will take a while to do that, probably not till next year, so the rules won't be part of the campaign... I just want to focus on the minis to make things easier. The new box sets will all be the same price. And stretch goals will be for new sets that will also be the same price for add-ons, and the more sets you pick in your pledge the cheaper they all get.

There will be an expansion pack for each of those 3 gangs as stretch goals, but I will just have concept art for them, I won’t be able to sculpt those till after they get funded. If things go extremely well, I was also toying with the idea of rescultping the original 4 gangs and repackaging in this new format. The funding will have to get pretty high to be able to afford that though.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/04/22 18:28:45


Post by: fightcitymayor


It's probably best to keep any new Kickstarter projects simple & limited if you think you might change stuff up, or alter course in the near future. Seems like small-scale minis manufacturers can hit modest goals with regularity these days on KS, as long as you don't overextend and make a dozen pledge levels, or offer dozens of add-ons. I agree with your idea of just having like 1 or 2 boxes per gang, so the "Intro Box" gives noobs a feel for that gang, then if you love it you can supplement it with a fixed "Reinforcements Box". Plus it keeps packaging costs down, and keeps the KS manageable on your end, so you and Ship Naked don't have to sort through every buyer having 12 different items to fulfill. Plus you can always direct them to the website for purchasing the existing stuff, or offer them a coupon for free-shipping at the site if they pledge for the KS but also want something from the site.

I can't wait for that Alpha Werebear!

p.s.
We need them there Zarconis too!



What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/04/22 18:47:59


Post by: Necros


Yes I want to keep it real easy to pledge and to fulfill & ship. I see lots of campaigns where you can select lots of single minis and it always seems like it would be a huge hassle. I’m not going to include any old sets modeal the campaign, last time around I learned that if people want them now they will buy them now and not have to wait for a pledge to get delivered. So that will also make it a lot easier too.

I’m just going to have 2 pledge levels.. one pledge to get 1 starter set, and a pledge for all 3 sets for a discount. Stretch goals will be for new sets and I think eventually I might add another pledge level for 6 sets at a bigger discount if we get that high. I’m not sure we will though.. the funding goal will be lower since I’m covering the sculpting costs, but for all new sets I haven’t funded we’ll have to start from scratch, so I’ll probably need stretch goals to each be like $5-6000. I think the funding goal will be $4000 though if all goes well.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/04/22 23:48:22


Post by: fightcitymayor


 Necros wrote:
Yes I want to keep it real easy to pledge and to fulfill & ship. I see lots of campaigns where you can select lots of single minis and it always seems like it would be a huge hassle.
Did you see the latest Ral Partha KS? Holy crap, I sat here scrolling.. and scrolling... and scrolling through hundreds of add-ons and I felt like weeping for the poor warehouse bastards that are going to have to fulfill those incredibly all-over-the-place orders. They will regret that crazy buffet.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/04/24 14:02:12


Post by: enfield


Like the Kickstarter idea to keep it small. Whenever you start I am ready to throw money at you.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/04/25 16:43:56


Post by: rollntider


I am interested in unsung and the undead crews. I will be backing again


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/04/28 02:12:07


Post by: Necros


Here's a render of the Werebear sculpt Next up will be the werecat. I also have a sculptor working on the Unsung now too, so not sure what I'm gonna get next but I'll post as soon as I do.



What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/04/28 14:24:39


Post by: Necros


And I just got a WIP of the Jackalope today .. here he is


he’s gonna be about the same size as the chupacabras, not a little bunny


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Busy day, also just got WIP shots of the first Unsung character, Janey Bower. She’s a moonshiner and likes to light her bottles on fire with her cigarette and toss them at varmints. This is just a WIP shot and there’s gonna be more detail added



These pics are in the gallery so you can click them to zoom in and see more detail and stuff


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/05/01 15:12:53


Post by: Frizzenspark


I've yet to invest in the "Savage Beast" Portion of the game, Though I do have all of the "Infamous Gang" miniatures, the new rulebook and cards. I have bought several buildings in the time.since.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/05/06 12:59:38


Post by: Necros


I just got a rough sketch of the cover art for the Kickstarter.. and i'll be using it for the PDF rules and website and other places too of course Hopefully I'll have the finished piece in another week or so



What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/05/06 13:45:14


Post by: tberry7403


Looking forward to the next KS.

Like the cover art



What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/05/09 19:44:41


Post by: Necros


More thinking aloud again .. I’ve been thinking about the different characters in the game lately, and stats and strengths, and how they could be improved for BWG 2.0. I’ve been wondering if it might be fun to have all of the premade characters that come in the new box sets w/ new cards and all, be all heroes? Basically do away with henchmen and minion levels.. everyone would have the same amount of attribute points, and higher health. It would be a lot like playing games with all gang leaders and hired guns. This means that every wimpy henchman character or even minions like chupacabra or jackalopes would be as tough as a gang leader. But… each character (or type of beast) could have a unique & characterful ability that’s not available to anyone else. And there could be a list of special abilities that you can choose from if you wanted to create your own characters from scratch.

I think that would make gang creation a lot simpler, but also make the games a bit more challenging since people won’t die as quickly. What do you think?


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/05/09 23:49:37


Post by: Frizzenspark


 Necros wrote:
More thinking aloud again .. I’ve been thinking about the different characters in the game lately, and stats and strengths, and how they could be improved for BWG 2.0. I’ve been wondering if it might be fun to have all of the premade characters that come in the new box sets w/ new cards and all, be all heroes? Basically do away with henchmen and minion levels.. everyone would have the same amount of attribute points, and higher health. It would be a lot like playing games with all gang leaders and hired guns. This means that every wimpy henchman character or even minions like chupacabra or jackalopes would be as tough as a gang leader. But… each character (or type of beast) could have a unique & characterful ability that’s not available to anyone else. And there could be a list of special abilities that you can choose from if you wanted to create your own characters from scratch.

I think that would make gang creation a lot simpler, but also make the games a bit more challenging since people won’t die as quickly. What do you think?


I'm afraid of Change.....


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/05/10 14:01:02


Post by: Necros


Hehe yeah maybe that’s a bit too much of a change

I was planning to do a similar “heroic mode” for the generic rules, so that got me thinking.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/05/19 19:38:59


Post by: Necros


So I’ve been giving some more thought to the factions and stuff in the game. At first I was planning 3, we have all of the regular human types as Infamous Gangs, then all of the animal-ish things as Savage Beasts, and all of the undead & creepy things as Ravenous Dead. Now I’ve been thinking, for BWG 2.0 maybe it would be better to just have 2 primary factions... Mortal and Immortal (or Supernatural)?

Then, we have each separate gang as a sub-faction so to speak, and develop the past gangs more fully, while brining out new Supernatural gangs as well. So this means beasts and undead would be on the same side and could potentially be fighting together. For pre-made gangs, I want to encourage people to stick to 1 gang and not mix characters up. It will be allowed, but not encouraged. I was thinking of bringing back the special gang leader skills that apply to the characters in his gang, like if Wilt Clancy leads your gang, every member of the Clancy Gang gets the Dirty Fighter special skill.. but if you were mixing things up and wanted Susana la Loba to join in, she wouldn’t get the buff because she’s with the Bandidos.

So going that route, we would have 1 new mortal gang and 2 new supernatural gangs in the kickstarter. The Unsung for mortals, Wormwood Wardens and The Wicked for the supernatural. Croatoan’s Wolfpack will be a whole separate supernatural gang, they are an exclusive werewolf cub. And then I think going forward when I do other new kickstarters I could plan on the same format of 1 new mortal gang and 2 supernatural gangs until things even out more.

What do you think of that?


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/05/20 20:02:35


Post by: Necros


Also, on that note, combining those 2 factions into 1 would also allow us to have more varied supernatural gangs. So I’m thinking in the Kickstarter it might be more streamlined just having 2 new gang starters rather than 3.. So just Unsung and Wormwood Wardens (mixing in what I was planning for The Wicked). That will also mean a lower funding goal too.

So for the funding goal we would have the the Wormwood starter pack with Werecat, Werebear, Wendigo and Rake. Unsung will get JW Clarkson, Janey Bower, Colin Buchanan and a Rustler henchman. Then for stretch goals Wormwood will get a booster pack with a werebat, revenant, 1 zombie and 1 cactus cat. 2nd goal will be an Unsung booster with Ruthie Mae, Cookie and 2 other henchmen I haven’t decided on yet. After that I’d like to add in the jersey devil as a large monster followed by a new artillery piece.. and then a support pack for each and stop there... I’d rather have a finite goal and get everything done in a timely manner and then do a new campaign after everything ships, rather than have it go on and on with tons of goals and end up being really late.

What I’m planning to do is have 3 types of 4-man box sets for all gangs eventually.. Starter sets get 1 gang leader hero, 2 professionals/fiends and 1 henchman/minion. Booster packs get 2 professionals & 2 henchmen. And Support Packs get 1 new Hero (who’s not the leader), 1 professional and 2 minions. large monsters and artillery pieces will be solo models, but other than that I'd like to stick to the 4 man boxes for everything. Just makes it easier.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and, also on that note .. I'm still kind of torn between dropping the support packs and booster packs in favor of packing everything except starter sets as solo minis. Solo minis would give folks more options for expanding their gangs and also have much lower stretch goals.. but that comes with lots of extra SKUs and overall not as "retail friendly" as easy-to-grab-off-the-shelf box sets.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/05/22 15:53:40


Post by: Frizzenspark


The oversized image makes it a little difficult to read this page, if you could edit it to smaller that'd simplify things...

Factions could make it interesting. Corvus Belli's Infinity has great success with their factions. Players develop a certain loyalty to a given faction (or three). Factions create a narrative which can bring life to a game.

For my part, I am fairly familiar with several Western themes; the narratives were fairly obvious to me based on the character design of the Miniatures.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/05/22 17:43:23


Post by: Necros


Yeah that's kinda of what I was thinking.. developing each separate gang we have now into full separate factions, so there would be a whole bunch of factions kind of like Infinity. But I still want to allow folks to mix characters between gangs as allies, but they'll will work a lot better together if you stick to one.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/05/27 16:38:28


Post by: Necros


So, thinking about the Kickstarter.. it’s still a long ways off. I’m gonna guess August or September. Planning ahead as usual. What I think I’d like to do now is present it like a 2-player starter pack, so it would be a retail boxed set that has the Unsung and Wormwood Wardens starter packs plus a printed rulebook. The book would be a bit smaller, really just some background info and the core rules and some model photo galleries and stuff like that. I’d leave out the campaigns and character creation stuff and have that all be like optional online rules. That will keep the page count lower and make it cheap enough to include in the box without costs getting too crazy. Maybe I’d could do a fuller print-on-demand book with the printed rules + other stuff later on?

So, if it’s going to be a 2-player starter set… does it need to also have stuff like dice and a mini tape measure? or terrain stuff? Kind of worried that if I add too much it will be too expensive, but if I don’t it won’t be a “proper” starter set. What do you think?


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/05/29 01:16:05


Post by: Necros


Here's a new design I was thinking about for the BWG 2.0 cards.. what do you think?



Should I make the health be more like a bar where you can put the card in a sleeve and use a dry erase marker to keep track of your health, kind of like Warmachine?

I think I'd probably be using model photos instead of art though, since I won't have full color art for every character.

And the card backs will be kind of like now, just plain text for reference listing all of the skills and weapon special rules too.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/05/29 20:48:34


Post by: Frizzenspark


Looks damn good!!!


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/06/01 17:42:01


Post by: Funbread


Sounds great (but I still miss the canevall gang from your 2nd kickstarter)
Immortals would be great too.



And maybe grey aliens !?


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/06/01 18:56:41


Post by: Necros


Aliens might be fun but if I did that, it would be a long ways off. I want to get the monsters all up and running first and stick to that for a while. It might be tough to do aliens without them being too corny, or too overpowered.

I’ve also decided for the new starter sets I’m just going to stick to the 5-man sets, so it will match what I already have. I might also repackage the werewolves into a 5 man starter, rather than the separate 3-pack + 2-pack I have now.

So I’m planning to do 5-man starter sets, and then 3-man gang booster packs and 3-man minion/henchmen packs that are more generic and able to join any gang in their faction.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/06/08 14:09:14


Post by: Necros


More stuff swimming around in my head today... So, once we get the BWG 2.0 rules done and released next year-ish, I’m planning to repackage all of my original minis and starter sets to include updated stat cards reflecting the 2.0 rules, plus a new quickstart rules sheet with each starter set (if it won’t drive up the costs too much). And then hopefully do a re-release and try and get stores interested in carrying the game.

On that note, thinking about the hired guns.. I want to cut down on the amount of SKUs I have so everything will be more retail-friendly. At first, I thought of grouping them up into packs of 3. There’s 12 in all right now. Just been wondering, do you like having all of those extra hero models to choose from? Would it be better to maybe turn them into their own separate gangs? Or, have them all join other gangs as 3-man booster packs? If we did that, they wouldn’t all be heroes anymore if we add them to other gangs.

Also been wondering about the Artillery. I’m planning a 3rd artillery piece called the Heavy Bolter, designed to shoot wooden stakes at pesky vampires. Bob is sculpting that now. Would it be good to keep them as 3 separate pieces (Gatling gun, werecatcher and heavy bolter) .. or would you rather see something more like one pack that has 1 carriage, and all 3 weapon options? Then you can build the one you want and/or use magnets to swap out the weapon you want to use each game?


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/06/10 10:31:50


Post by: kill4koin


I don't play Savage Beasts, but if I did, I would prefer the one carriage with weapon choices. Privateer Press did that with some of their models and it gave players a chance to use a couple of options with warjacks and Beasts. Good, flexible options.

Will the 2.0 cards be available for purchase?


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/06/10 12:00:13


Post by: Necros


Yes, I'll have downloadable cards like now and then I'll be using Wargame Vault for print on demand cards for folks that want them.. but I'm going to change that and offer them per gang rather than one huge deck, that way people can just get the gangs they want. The only thing is that you need to order a minimum of 10 cards, and all of the gangs just have 5 members. Right now anyway Maybe I can still do one big deck too, so that might be a teeny bit cheaper if someone wants to get them all.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/06/10 12:24:26


Post by: CptJake


If you can design the castings for the carriage and the weapon choices to have holes for the magnets it would fantastic!

Even if you could not include magnets in the pack you could state "Accepts xxx sized magnets" and folks could get their own.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/06/10 17:43:16


Post by: Necros


Yeah that would be cool.. I'll have to think about that, it might be tough though because the gatling gun and the werecatcher both connect to the carriage in a different spot. Not sure how Bob is going to do the Heavy Bolter, I told him to just make up something that looks cool and fits on top of the same carriage. So we'll see what he comes up with first


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/06/13 00:58:19


Post by: Necros


So here's what I'm working on now



Going to try and get a nice hardback rulebook done in the Kickstarter. I've also decided to stick with just the 2 major factions (Mortal & Immortal), but instead of mixing beasts and undead together we'll have separate gangs. So we'll have the Unsung mortal gang, and then the Wormwood Wardens beast gang, and The Wicked undead gang.

Getting some new art done for the Wicked.. they will have a Brujah, Revenant, Wendigo, Rake and Ghoul


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/06/14 00:04:30


Post by: fightcitymayor


That cover in hardback would be badass!


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/06/14 14:24:41


Post by: tpryan01


have you thought of adding "Savage World / Deadlands" stats to add a cross over audience?

I am sure you could work out the licensing with Shane Hensley easily.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/06/14 14:37:16


Post by: Necros


Actually I haven't ever really looked into Deadlands at all. I know it's a similar theme so I was afraid I'd end up copying too much from them or whatever. So I thought it would be better to just do my own thing and make up my own little world

Forgot to post here, but i added it to facebook yesterday.. here is the concept art for the undead gang, The Wicked. From left to right there's a Wendigo, Rake, Brujah (not undead, just evil), ghoul and revenant.



What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/06/16 15:59:18


Post by: Necros


So, I’m trying to come up with some good ideas for Blackwater Gulch objective markers. In the new rules, you can set up objectives on the board for people to capture. So rather than just putting a glass bead on the board I thought it would be cool if we could have something that fits the theme. These would be small pieces that come with a plastic base, maybe 5 to a box.

At first I was thinking just a crate or barrel would be good enough, but I’d like to have something cooler, just don’t know what. What kind of objective pieces would you like to see?

I also thought about putting together an optional print-on-demand Loot Deck where if you capture an objective, you can draw a card and get a cool item that you can use in your game.. or keep for other games if you are playing in a campaign. So that's why I was thinking having a crate or barrel would be good for storing loot, but crates & barrels feel kinda boring.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/06/16 19:43:09


Post by: CptJake


Objective ideas:

Loot bags like you would take from a bank

Half opened crate filled with bullets or coins

A set of saddle bags

Whisky bottle(s)



What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/06/19 18:45:32


Post by: Frizzenspark


It's been a while since I've been able to make a good visit, here's my two cents.

As for Artillery, a good old Mountain Howitzer would be a blast! The casting would be simple; the rules might be tricky though.

Historique makes some excellent markers for Bolt Action, it's a one-man operation, but he does excellent custom work. http://www.historiqueshop.com/index.php?id_category=19&controller=category


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/06/20 14:37:52


Post by: Necros


Cool those are some good ideas for objectives. I think I may try sculpting them myself when I get my copy of zbrush, I think it will be easier to learn starting out with inanimate objects. I may still do some crates and barrels, I was also thinking it might be cool to make some obstacles that are piles of crates and barrels and junk, maybe around 1x1x4” long? I may also try casting them myself, since they would be flat on the bottom I could probably do them as a 1 piece mold where you just pour the resin over the top rather than a 2 piece mold that would need a pressure pot and all. I could probably also do some custom printable tokens for objectives or to keep track of damage types or wounds.

I’ve been thinking about the 2 big factions lately.. The sides are pretty uneven with so many human gangs. Been trying to think up some ideas for more evil gangs to join them. Maybe something like the Hellfire Club even though that was a London thing? I’d like to do Tommyknockers who I was planning to have be kind of like subterranean goblin types who like to eat unsuspecting gold miners. The Traveling Zarconis circus gang could be evil, and we could give them more of a mystical vibe and add in some circus freaks? I don’t think I want to do a straight up demon race like Warhammer style though, I was thinking demons would be more like evil spirits possessing people. I think after these 3 new gangs are done I’d like to do the Zarconis next though, they’ve been pushed back off the list for the last couple of years now.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/06/21 21:17:04


Post by: Necros


I still keep going back and forth on packaging ideas I just can’t decide.

I still plan to do the 5 man starter packs as usual. But for adding extra characters to the existing gang, I’m starting to wonder if offering them in bigger packs of 3 is a good idea? Since I’m going for more of a character-driven game where each person is unique, maybe it would be better to offer all of the supporting characters and minions as solo minis? I’m kind of thinking this will also help out in the Kickstarter, and give us much smaller stretch goals where we can basically just unlock 1 new guy at a time as add-on items.

What I’m planning on doing as far as gang building goes is it’s all based on the gang leader’s race and gang, so each character card has 2 icons at the top. The main race will show up first, so your gang leader can recruit any other character with his same race’s icon. And then there’s his gang icon, and he can recruit anyone with that icon too. He also gives a special bonus ability to only his gang’s characters, not his whole race. I thought that would be a nice & easy way to encourage people to stick to one gang, while still giving the option to recruit others if you want.

So I’ve decided not to do the strict mortal vs immortal faction thing, as long as a character matches the leader’s race or gang, then they can join up. Most of the time the races & gangs won’t mix in the official characters, but there will likely be some “good” supernatural characters mixed into human gangs eventually. Not often, but just a few rare cases. But I do plan to have some evil men joining supernatural gangs. So this seemed like a good & balanced way to have a little more diversity.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/06/29 14:46:12


Post by: Necros


Just a general status update..

I’m planning out the Kickstarter now, and if all goes will I will probably be doing that around the 2nd or maybe 3rd week of August. I’ve decided, then undecided, and now redecided to stick to the 3-model starter set format I introduced with the Savage Beasts campaign. It’s mostly do to overall costs to produce stuff and also to have a lower KS funding goal. The rulebook is coming along nicely, I’m laying it all out now. At first I was thinking it would be 80 pages, but I think it’s probably going to be much bigger.. possibly around 120. I’m also going to put together a deck of loot cards, where you can draw a card if you capture an objective and might find a cool new weapon to use or a consumable item or a rare mystical item. I haven’t decided yet, but I was thinking about also including a special loot card with each gang starter set, something that fits their theme that you can mix in with your other loot cards.

I’m planning to also include the old gangs too as add-ons, they will eventually get repackaged in the new format, but that will cost a lot so I’m going to keep the old gangs as is for now. I’ll have a pledge for just the rulebook, and then a sweet spot pledge where you get the book, loot deck and the starter packs for all 3 new gangs. No concrete prices yet, but I think the rulebook will be $30, new starters $18 and loot deck $15, and the sweet spot pledge will have a nice discount for everything and will also come with a free Jackalope mini.

I’m probably going to launch the campaign just showing the 3D sculpts. Maybe if I pick up Zbrush finally I’ll try doing some 3D painting, but I kind of feel like that’s cheapy and you should show real painted minis instead. I would like to get minis to paint first, but I’ll need the funding to get the molds done, and also with GenCon happening soon, they won’t be able to get the master molds done till some time in August anyway.

And speaking of molds, I’m still on the fence about switching to resin. I got quotes from a few different companies and they’re all about the same, resin itself is more expensive than metal, but I will save on mold costs since I do a lower volume (a couple hundred copies vs a couple thousand). I think it will also be a lot better for some of the beast models that are bigger than average men and a little more expensive in metal. So I’m still trying to decide but I’m leaning more toward resin at the moment.

So right now I just have 5 more sculpts I’m waiting on.. The ghoul for the Wicked, a new werebear and werecat for the Wormwood Wardens, and then Ruthie the preacher and Van Dyke the ranger for the Unsung. I should have most of them done in the next week or 2.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/06/29 15:44:46


Post by: CptJake


I prefer metal, but if you do use resin please let us know who you are using. If it is Prodos/Archon/Whatever name they are using today I won't be supporting.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/06/29 15:53:29


Post by: Necros


No, the resin companies I've been thinking of are here in the US. It would probably be Valiant. If I stick to metal, it will be Iron Wind Metals as usual. Iron Wind just said they didn't want to do resin minis, they only do resin for big stuff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh also, one of the main reasons I wanted to switch to resin is because I'd like to be able to get my own 3D printer, but all of the prints that can do the detail I need in my price range can't produce prints that can stand up to the heat needed for the molds for metal minis.. so if I get my own printer, I pretty much have to switch to resin. The printer I'm looking at (FormLabs 2) is $3500.. it's really expensive but having a 3rd party do the printing for all of my new sculpts will be over half that, so it might be worth the investment now.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/07/01 14:50:27


Post by: Necros


So, I just submitted a printing quote for a 2nd edition special edition box set. I’d like to see how much it would cost. I was planning to have it include a softcover version of the rulebook, 1 deck of loot cards, 1 deck of updated character cards for all of the old models and whatever ones we can unlock in the campaign, and these custom dice we were going to make a while ago and never did..



I was thinking that might be fun for a special Kickstarter thing. I would just print the minimum amount and when it sells out eventually I’d switch over to just a regular rulebook. But I want to make sure it will be affordable enough first, and one drawback is the lead time.. it would likely take about 6 months to arrive at the warehouse from the moment I send them the final files, so I would imagine I wouldn’t be able to fulfill the campaign till probably something like Q2 next year. But we’ll see how it goes. I’m mostly just curious to see what the costs will be like.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/07/03 03:45:44


Post by: Necros


Here is a new rulebook preview, I've decided to break up all of the gangs so that each and every character in the game will have a 1 page bio. This will crank up the page count, but also hopefully help convey that it's a character driven game where everyone is unique. Here's a PDF for the bandidos and a pic of the 2 page spread. Mostly just filler text for now, but I'm working on it...

http://skirmishgames.com/download/442/



What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/07/04 03:26:51


Post by: Frizzenspark


I could almost understand the gibberish sample writing used as spacing, the layout looks great, lesser folks should get half a page.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/07/06 12:57:17


Post by: fightcitymayor


 Necros wrote:
Oh also, one of the main reasons I wanted to switch to resin is because I'd like to be able to get my own 3D printer, but all of the prints that can do the detail I need in my price range can't produce prints that can stand up to the heat needed for the molds for metal minis.. so if I get my own printer, I pretty much have to switch to resin. The printer I'm looking at (FormLabs 2) is $3500.. it's really expensive but having a 3rd party do the printing for all of my new sculpts will be over half that, so it might be worth the investment now.
I wish I knew where 3D printing was headed. Once upon a time (5 years ago) it was hailed as "the next big thing" but lately a lot of the big players in the industry have been dealing with cratering stock prices, layoffs, and a general climate of unease. I know the spools of material end up being quite expensive, and obviously the cost of the machines is still not at a consumer level. Then you add in the fact that it takes some skill to actually create the models via software & I wonder what the future holds. I kinda thought we would all be 3D-printing our own minis by now, but it has yet to come to pass.

And part of me would be sad to see BWG switch from metals to resin, just on principle. I remember when Black Scorpion switched to resin, that was kinda sad as well.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/07/06 14:17:30


Post by: Necros


Yeah, I think 3D printing needs another breakthrough to make printers more affordable for consumers for the level of detail we want. The liquid resin method gives good results, but I personally don't like the idea of spilling it all over my carpet which I know will happen eventually.

I'm gonna stick with metal for a while yet, it's just better for small minis. Big models I'll do in resin though. If the Kickstarter goes well enough I have a few big monsters planned, those will probably be resin.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/07/06 17:59:02


Post by: porkuslime


 Frizzenspark wrote:
I could almost understand the gibberish sample writing used as spacing, the layout looks great, lesser folks should get half a page.


I am in agreement.. Heroes and Professionals, 1 page bios, Henchmen.. just get half page..


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/07/06 18:38:43


Post by: Necros


Yep that's what I was gonna do. Henchmen are going to be more generic, no character names just more like a class.. like a bandit or a thug or deputy. I was going to arrange those 2 per page with just a picture on one side and the stats on the other.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/07/10 22:35:22


Post by: Frizzenspark


Resin currently does well for chunky things like armoured vehiclesl I imagine it would do well for figurines.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/07/11 20:01:57


Post by: Necros


What I would love to be able to do eventually, some day, is do everything in house. Sculpt my own minis in Zbrush, print them on my own high res 3D printer, cast my own minis in resin or metal if I could learn how and get the right equipment, and then pack everything up and ship it out. Right now I have to pay someone else for pretty much everything but graphic design, so my costs are a lot higher than I’d like them to be. Can’t really get away from that right now but I hope to one day.

Been going through some rules tweaks. I decided to add a rule where the max amount of dice you’re allowed to roll at any time is 6. I was thinking, if you cranked up your ranged combat to 6 when you made your own character, then took 2 pistols, the gunslinger skill and bounty hunter skill… you’d have +3 dice when rolling to hit a human so a total of 9 dice altogether. Just seems too excessive. So I’m hoping in this case, people will be encouraged to spend their points on other attributes rather than min-maxing. If you wanted to be able to roll 6 dice and have those skills, you would just need a ranged combat of 3.

At first I was going to have a rule where you can only ever get one +1 D6 bonus and they don’t stack, but I do want people to be able to make some killer combos. But, I may change the hunter skills to give you rerolls for a missed attack rather than +1 D6 to hit every single time. Or maybe +1 strength vs a certain race instead of +1 D6?


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/07/11 22:14:17


Post by: Frizzenspark


It's never occured to me that people would push the rules envelope. BWG is one of the most "Spirit of the Rules games I've ever played.

There are, I suppose the win at all costs crowd, even in BWG.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/07/12 02:33:23


Post by: Necros


Yeah it's definitely meant to be a laid back game but I just want to have safeguards in place just in case and I don't think it will hurt anything.

So, another thing I'm going to be doing for the 2nd edition is make sure everyone but the minions & henchmen have a gang. So I'm going to do away with Hired Guns and they will all join gangs as members instead. You'll still be allowed to mix up characters like now though.

Right now I have John Blackwood, Mickey Finn, The Norwegian and Clinton Wales joining the Clancy Gang. Doc Lloyd, Shamus McFox, Kurt Wyatt and Dr. Kilmer will join the Vigilance Committee. And then Nevada Dave, Marshal Stewart, Father Al and Rooster Moorison will join the Dockside Drifters. After this new batch of minis and new gangs are done I'll be adding more characters to all of the other gangs and the goal will be to get each on up to around 9 characters.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/07/13 18:07:41


Post by: Necros


Still plugging away at the rulebook. I never thought I would have as much content as there is but I guess over the last 4 years or so I’ve really accumulated a lot of stuff It’s kind of slow going because I have limited after-work time and I’m also spending some of that repainting some of the older minis so I can get some newer looking photos. Once I’m done adding all of the new gang info and stats I’ll put together a preview PDF of the whole thing. Still looks like it’ll be at or over 120 pages and that’s not including campaigns or having lots of different scenarios. So I’ve been thinking about maybe doing special campaign books later on, kind of like how Privateer Press does it for Warmahordes, where each one will add more fluff and new characters & gangs and special scenarios to play.

I’ve decided to do 1 more race/faction change.. I was planning to have Undead and Demons as 2 separate races, but since they are both evil and both want to eat people I figured they would be better off merged together. In the fluff it will be described as evil spirits & forces that can possess living or dead hosts. So now I was going to name the factions Mortal for humans, Savage for all skinwalkers and animal types, and Corrupt for all undead and creepy things. And that will work out perfect for the 3 new gangs in the Kickstarter, we’ll have 1 of each.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/07/16 14:03:11


Post by: JP1138


Spending the weekend writing background about El Jefe; Chief Bloodwolf; Wilt Clancy and all the other Leaders of the notorious gangs of Blackwater Gulch.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/07/18 02:50:25


Post by: Frizzenspark


I'm working with a Buffalo soldier Gang; I picked up a couple of Artizan packs... I'm working on a good trooper vs Bad trooper scenario thing involving Wilde's Rangers vs my yet un-named Buffalo Gang.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/07/18 15:01:37


Post by: Necros


Just some monday morning ramblings.

I’ve been thinking about the 2nd edition boxed set some more. I still haven’t gotten my quote from Panda yet (they said 3-4 weeks and it’s only been 2ish). If I do a boxed set with a rulebook + cards and dice and all, I kind of feel like it needs miniatures too and it should be more like a 2 player starter set. The problem is, they would have to be PVC minis and I’m not sure I like that idea. PVC has gotten better over the last few years but the details still aren’t as good as resin or metal. But for a box set the minimum I need to print is 1500 copies, so when you get to that many copies resin and metal is just too expensive. So just wondering what you guys might think of that idea.. a 2 player box set with PVC minis for 2 different gangs (probably Unsung & The Wicked), and all other gang sets would be metal.

Honestly the main reason I keep thinking about the boxed set is because of Kickstarter. It seems like with minis lately you need to go big or go home. Big boxed games seem to have much better chances for success. Not really expecting to be able to pull in anywhere near 6 digits, but just based on the quotes I had for the Bad Lands game before, I don’t think the funding goal would be too bad.. probably just in the $25-30k range. I think that’s do-able if we can get the right amount of attention when it launches and I already have a bunch of ads reserved for sites like beasts of war and tabletop gaming news, so I’m hopeful. So just wondering, what do you guys think of that idea?


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/07/18 22:21:19


Post by: Frizzenspark


Whatever medium you choose to make the miniatures in, make them exclusive to the set or at least have an exclusive miniature from each faction in the set. Cardboard buildings might be something to look into.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/07/18 23:44:55


Post by: Necros


Just bouncing the idea around in my head, but with the current rulebook & cards I'm working on now, I really wouldn't need to add much more to the printed stuff other than a nice box. So the box set would come with the rules, loot cards, character cards, special dice and a punchboard sheet with tokens and small ruler.. I can fit a 12" ruler diagonally on a 8.5x11 sheet. I already have plenty of token art made up from the old Bad Lands project.

Adding in minis I thought I would just include The Wicked and the Unsung starting with 5 per side. For stretch goals, I'd add 2 free mins to the set, 1 for each gang. That would go up to 18 total or 9 per side. That would crank up the retail price a bit, but not change the KS price, so it will be a better deal the more we unlock. For other goals, I could include either board tiles or a fold-out matt with some tuck box buildings similar to the starter sets for Infinity. The buildings would be more like obstacles though, you wouldn't be able to go inside them. We could also add in plastic objective markers and/or obstacles & scatter terrain as stretch goals. Also I would still do the Wormwood Wardens and add them in as a 3rd gang expansion pack after the main box set is all unlocked.

But as far as buildings go though, I do have a sculptor working on my first building kit right now, it'll be resin and have lots of detail like deep wood grains for drybrushing fun. I'm starting with a small 4x4" 1 story shop. Once we get that done, we can pick it apart and make different larger versions and multi-story buildings too. I wasn't sure if I want to add that to the campaign though because I don't know what the prices will be like or how long it will take to make on top of everything else. So it's a separate experimental project right now.





What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/07/18 23:54:49


Post by: CptJake


I would consider the third gang as an add-on to put up is funding stalls or when you have a number of backers where if half of those backers bought the add-on the funding for the add-on would be met. Maybe make that building an add-on too.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/07/19 01:19:16


Post by: Necros


Yeah, I could probably add the building in, and I want to get the 3rd gang going too. I just want to be careful and not offer tons of stretch goals to the point where it goes on and on and takes forever to fulfill. I wanted to stick to a finite amount, I'd rather do a couple of smaller campaigns and launch a new one when the last one ships rather than having multiple waves of stuff.

I could probably offer a bundle with the box set + 2 or 3 buildings. I was also going to include all of the original gangs for add on items too. people could just buy them from my online store, but if they add it to a pledge they will get the updated character cards with them.

I just want to be careful because if I try to add in too much in the beginning it can crank up the funding goal really high


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/07/19 11:11:42


Post by: CptJake


Run the numbers and do what makes sense.

As I know you planned on anyway!



What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/07/19 13:20:36


Post by: Necros


Yeah. it’s tough when there’s so many options. The only thing they all have in common is they’re all expensive.

I was just thinking now, since it’s a skirmish game and all, and a 2-player starter set like Infinity or Privateer does, I probably don’t need PVC minis since it’s not a real board game. I need to produce 1500 copies though, but I think PVC is best when it’s like 5000 or even more. I doubt I will ever need that many, but I guess you never know till you know. So I’m asking Panda if they can do regular resin instead of PVC. I’m guessing they would have to outsource it, but they probably outsource the PVC too. Resin minis would be more detailed and I can still stick to the same 30mm bases I’ve been using for metal minis. Not a big fan of integrated bases.

Or, if that’s all ends up too pricey I would just stick to the rules & cards in the box and separate metal starter sets. Twisted did that and it seemed to work well. Their minis were a bit pricier though since their sets had 7 minis. I paid $140 USD for their rules box + 2 gang sets, 14 minis in all.

Another thing on my mind.. last time my campaign failed but I had so many store sales during the campaign that I made enough to fund the minis anyway. It would have been successful if those sales were pledges instead. So I’m wondering if I should shut down my online store during the campaign? Folks that want the old minis can pledge for them, and they could be shipped out as soon as the pledge manager is done if they don’t want any new items. That way those dollars will help to fund the campaign. I’ve been wanting to rebuild my online store from scratch under my main URL anyway so maybe now is the time?


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/07/20 01:25:28


Post by: Necros


Just got a preview of what the loot cards are gonna look like

The icons at the bottom will change a bit, and the color backgrounds show the rarity.. plain for common, green for uncommon, blue for rare, purple for infamous and orange for legendary. Comfortable boots won't be legendary



What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/07/22 01:18:10


Post by: kill4koin


Those loot cards look nice. Can't wait to get some of those.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/07/25 16:55:24


Post by: Necros


More Monday Morning Musings .. this is turing into a habit.

So, I’m still waiting for the prices for the boxed version of the rules, hopefully will have them this week. That will come with the rules, character cards for all old minis, loot cards and fancy dice. I’ve been wondering if it might be better to have smaller rulebook in there instead of full sized, basically removing all of the character bios that take up half of the book.. that would make it around 60 pages rather than 120, I’m not sure how much of a price difference that will be. I had a quote for an 80 page and 120 page single rulebook before, and it was a difference of around $10 for the retail price.

So that got me thinking.. since my starter sets are going to be around 6x4” boxes, I could include a small booklet inside each one talking about each gang.. it would be kind of like the little booklets you get in a DVD or music CD. They wouldn’t really drive up the cost much, they would only cost me around 10-15 cents if I print 500 or more. There will also be character stat cards in the boxes too, so I’m not sure the booklets are needed and maybe cards are good enough? Or instead of the booklet, maybe a big 6x4” bio card for just the gang leader with some nice art on 1 side and his bio on the back? Would it be worth adding stuff like that, or would most people just skim and then toss em? I really want to try and emphasize that it’s a character driven game, not the type of game like Warmachine where you just have 1 character and then bunch of other nameless people.

or would it be better to do the smaller rulebook in the box, and offer a bigger fuller rulebook later on after the box set is sold out, and that would contain all of the character bios and stuff?


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/07/26 03:02:04


Post by: Frizzenspark


I was wondering if you should include any cards at all; providing cards for all the miniatures seems like a bit of overkill for a starter set. Providing a sheet with faux character cards for the gameset minis might be a more economic option. provide the cardset as an aftermarket option.

A full rulebook would then be more viable.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/07/26 03:32:13


Post by: Necros


True that, I can see what the prices will be like.. but cards are generally cheap when you're printing 1000+ copies. So I just thought why not include them

but then I'm still kind of on the fence about offering the old minis as add-ons in the new campaign. On 1 hand, it will be nice to get some extra funding dollars from them. On the other, it could lead to some really complex pledges and cause some fulfillment nightmares and it might be more streamlined and focused to stick to just new stuff.

I will eventually be repackaging the old minis with new cards and boxes, but printing the boxes will be expensive so I probably won't do that until after the campaign is all done. So that's kind of why I wanted to include the new cards in the box set.

Still waiting for price quotes though.. I hate waiting :(


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/07/26 18:39:27


Post by: Necros


I have a feeling I’m going to have to ditch the boxed ruleset idea and stick to the hardback rulebook. Got 1 quote and still waiting for more, but it looks like it’s going to be too expensive and would only be worthwhile if I was ordering like 5000 copies or more .. and i know I won’t need anywhere near that. I was planning on the minimum of 1000. That alone will end up costing over $17k after shipping & KS fees. The hardback rulebooks will be much more reasonable and probably the best bet in the long run anyway.. they’re printed here in the US.. texas to be exact. So unless another printer gets back to me with some amazing price, I’m gonna keep planning on the hardback book + separate pack of loot cards.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/07/31 15:36:28


Post by: Frizzenspark


Looking over the rulebook, quickly, I did notice an error on the Map, It said "GOLDRCOK".... but that may or may not be fixable.

I understand why you have Artillery as immobile, Though as an Artillerist I know they can be quite mobile.

I propose that two men could move it two inches; three-three; a maximum of four inches for four. this would include a pivot either at the begining or at the end of the movement. This balances the impractical with a hint of desperation, but a movement could be a gamechanger.... naturally the weapon could not be moved and fired in the same turn.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/07/31 22:15:30


Post by: Necros


Oops.. Yeah I can fix the typo. And Yeah I just didn't want too many crazy rules, but what I was thinking at first is you could move artillery once per turn, and you can move it up to your strength in inches. And yeah if you move you can't shoot it till next turn


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/07/31 23:15:08


Post by: Frizzenspark


That's the issue; Naturally you want to keep the game simple. Reality can complicate things...A mountain Howitzer would be a wonderful addition, but the inherit difficulties of translating the complexities of the processes of muzzleloading Artillery could just about overload the patience of the average gamer.

I do really like the fleshing out of the new rulebook. there appears to be an enhanced vision of the Supernatural storyline that provides Raison D'etre to inhuman segments. The rules, naturally can be used historically as well.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/08/01 13:57:46


Post by: Necros


Yep that’s what I was getting at with the 2 factions. If you prefer more of a historical game, just use human gangs and it’s the same game as before just with the updated rules. If you like monsters, you can play Immortal gangs too. If people really want to get crazy with custom gangs, they can even mix the 2 factions together with skills. I’m also going to be taking the weapon & skill lists and adding them to a “Wild West” supplement for the generic gangfight rules so that will be another option for regular western games too.

I still haven’t put the stats together for The Wicked just yet, I was planning to have Miss Lavoe be a demon and make it just an Immortal gang, but I’m thinking about having her be a regular mortal with the Warlock skill.. so they will be the first mixed gang, just with an evil theme. Maybe we can add some really mean mortal outlaws in there too. But I was also thinking of adding a Hellfire Club gang later on that would be like that too.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/08/15 14:17:17


Post by: Necros


I’m getting things ready for the Kickstarter now. Only 2 weeks away and that’s going to come sooner than I think. I got a bunch of different rulebook boxed set printing quotes so far, and I’m still waiting for 1 more from Ludofact in Germany. I’ve decided to stick to the 120 page hardcover rulebook, and that will come in a box set with a deck of loot cards, 6 custom dice like we’ve done for previous campaigns, and also a sheet of punchboard tokens for things like loot & objective markers or tracking special types of damage like who is on fire or poisoned. The box set will cost $35 regular price or $30 for the KS sweet spot pledge. The gang starter sets will be $25 regular or $20 for the KS.. so the sweet spot pledge will be $90 for the rules and all 3 new gangs, with a $20,000 funding goal.

I haven't decided yet if I want to include the old starter sets in the campaign, I kinda think it would be better to focus on the new models and people can just buy the old ones right away if they want them.

Right now I’m trying to decide what to include in those 120 pages. My original plan was to have 4-pages devoted to each gang, and another 20 or so pages for all of the hired guns, henchmen and minions. That filled up around 70 pages altogether. What I’m thinking about doing now is only include bios for the new gangs and characters that get added with the campaign, and fill up the rest of the book with the campaign rules and special missions.

And on the subject of campaigns, I’m kind of torn. I've always liked the Mordheim/Necromuda style campaign where your characters get tougher after each game, but I feel like custom characters takes away from the theme I’m going for where you’re supposed to use our pre-made characters and everything you need to play is included in the box sets. Lately I’ve been playtesting something more along the lines of an escalation league format. Your gang starts out with 200 Fame and you use that to recruit as many characters as you can, usually around 4. After each game, your gang earns more Fame and you can use that to recruit more members. it also works well with custom gangs too. Your characters don’t gain XP, your gang just gets bigger and bigger. So, I think that’s the campaign format I’d like to go with.. just not sure if I should include that in the book or go with something more like a PDF supplement.

What would you rather see in the book, campaign rules or bios for everyone? Unfortunately I don't have enough space for both :(


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/08/16 14:49:35


Post by: Necros


Chatted with a few folks and decided to keep the contents of the book as is, with bios & stats for every gang. I still would like to try and include the campaign rules though, and some special scenarios.. what I may do is have that be a stretch goal in the campaign since increasing the page count will also increase the costs. Though if I'm able to print more than 2000 copies the printing costs will drop a lot, so the cost of extra pages might be a wash then. We'll have to see how it goes.

Currently there are 4 pages devoted to each gang. 1 intro page, 1 full page bio for the leader, and then the other 4 characters are 2 per page. I would love to be able to expand that and have 1 full page bio for every character in the game, but that would add a good 50 pages, maybe more. And I would have to pay for a lot of extra writing. But I might consider that for a stretch goal too, would be a pretty big goal, but still. That would probably not happen unless I can get all of the minis I had planned all unlocked.

I do have a stopping point for the campaign.. if it goes incredibly well, it will max out at 3 starter sets for the 3 new gangs, then 3 3-man booster packs for each gang, and 3 3-man henchmen & minion packs. There will also be a bunch of new hired guns and monsters (monsters are basically hired guns for immortal gangs) that will be bonus minis. I want to have a stopping point so that fulfillment doesn't drag on forever, I'd rather be able to ship the rewards on time if not early, and then jump into another campaign afterwards, rather than one big campaign that goes on and on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and I've added a new special rule .. Dopplegangers. Since there are a finite number of premade characters, I thought this might be a fun way to explain away the fact that both players might end up with some of the same character(s) in their gangs. So, basically, one of them is an imposter and no one knows who the real one is. Since there can be only one, if a character attacks his doppleganger, he will get a bonus of +1D6 to hit.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/08/21 14:49:53


Post by: Frizzenspark


I was wondering if a separate Campaign book would be the better solution. It would give you a little more breathing room to flesh out details, add additional rules, etc

The initial release answers the call of a self-sufficient table-top game an additional book throws more meat on the bones.that are hungry for it.


What's next for Blackwater Gulch? @ 2016/08/23 13:26:13


Post by: Necros


I got my final price quote today, this time from Ludo fact in Germany. It looks like they will only be good for if I need to print like 5000 copies or more, for 1000-2000 copies their price is just too high. So I'm going to stick with WinGo games in China. They've done lots of board games I recognize so I'm sure the quality will be top notch. We may get stuck with a small delay if we can't get everything printed before the Chinese New Year when pretty much the whole country shuts down for a month. But with a June delivery date we should be fine. I'm saying June, but planning for more like April.

Here's a peek at the campaign page so far.. still a lot to add.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/gangfightgames/1343971291?token=43a10a36

Also, I have tons of stretch goals planned, but I don't know how many I should show? Sometimes I feel like it's tacky to show a huge list if you're nowhere near reaching them yet... so I thought I'd do 2-3 at a time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and yeah, I think campaign supplements would be a cool way to expand things later on, kinda like Warmachine. Thinking we could do a book that focuses on a specific region like the Wormwood Forest or Mictlan Excavations, add lots of art and stories.. 1-2 new gangs and lots of new characters to join the old ones, and lots of special scenarios to play based on the story. Or maybe do those scenarios as something like a story driven campaign where one game effects what happens in the next?