More and more I'm thinking it's kind of silly that pistols don't use their profile in close combat. I always picture the fight where my sergeant parries an attack with his sword, the opponent takes two or three steps back for a second, you shoot him in the guts with your plasma pistol. Instead, the game portrays it as you trying to violently club him to death with your pistol, and smacking him with your pistol, while you're holding a sword in your other hand, makes that pistol suddenly able to pierce armor.

Now I'm not saying that we need to completely remove the ability to add an extra attack by carrying a pistol. I think it'd be fine if we said you can still club them with your pistol. However, I was thinking something along the lines of having the option to shoot your pistol instead of doing a melee attack.... a case where the sergeant focuses on blocking with his sword, and waits for the opportunity to get off a pistol shot instead of swinging with his thoroughly inferior sword. In particular I think it's silly that he'd try to cut something with armor two using his sword instead of going for the obviously preferred options of shooting them. Or why try stuffing a krak grenade up a wraithknights behind instead of standing a few feet away and shooting it while your marines distract it?

In it's current state I think the plasma pistol is a bit useless, as you're paying 15 points for what will often only get a single shot in a game. Either you're out of range, or you/opponent charge next turn.

Are you going to raise the cost on plasma pistols then? Power Fists are 25, and have only 1 more Strength, but one fewer attack and unwieldy.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Are you going to raise the cost on plasma pistols then? Power Fists are 25, and have only 1 more Strength, but one fewer attack and unwieldy.

God, I hope not. They're already way too expensive.

The leaked draft 6e rulebook let you replace one of your normal attacks with an attack with your pistol, that seems like an effective balancing tool.

I would of rather seen them go for a single shot in CC (with gunslinger working in tandem) would give you more reasons to take em (since focusing on shooting means you probably wont be flailing your arms around to attack more)

edit: perhaps with WS vs WS instead of BS to represent the parrying and gunkatta effect or whatever

Some pistols are nasty. For example, Eversor's pistol. Or a melta pistol. It works fine in theory when you have pistols from around s3-5 range and probably plazma - as they're currently used so rarely. But there is a number of pistols that'd be completely broken for the current price.

IIRC pistols used to be active in cc some time ago. It all just got down to +1 attack now to make it easier.

I am completely in favor of replacing ONE of the model's CC attacks with it's pistol's profile, if the player chooses to. Gunslinger models would be able to get 2 'shots' but no other attacks. I also think that it would be simplest to use the HTH To Hit chart (Kharn hits on 2's!). These attacks should be at initiative (modified due to charging into terrain sans grenades, etc.).

3 attacks base, +1 for 2 CC weapons, +1 for the charge = 4 attacks with the 'melee' weapon and 1 shot with the pistol.

Pure hilarity ensues when the Space Marine Captain's Plasma Pistol rolls a '1' and he takes a wound....



Some pistols have exotic profiles (template) or have effects upon wounding (Dark Eldar pistol that restores a wound, for example). How would you propose to handle those?

DCannon4Life wrote:
I am completely in favor of replacing ONE of the model's CC attacks with it's pistol's profile, if the player chooses to. Gunslinger models would be able to get 2 'shots' but no other attacks. I also think that it would be simplest to use the HTH To Hit chart (Kharn hits on 2's!). These attacks should be at initiative (modified due to charging into terrain sans grenades, etc.).

3 attacks base, +1 for 2 CC weapons, +1 for the charge = 4 attacks with the 'melee' weapon and 1 shot with the pistol.

Pure hilarity ensues when the Space Marine Captain's Plasma Pistol rolls a '1' and he takes a wound....



Some pistols have exotic profiles (template) or have effects upon wounding (Dark Eldar pistol that restores a wound, for example). How would you propose to handle those?

Just like Snap fire. (aka no go)

Im still for the 1 shot per pistol only in CC just to keep them from going up in price.

Or just let pistols overwatch at full ballistic skill instead...

Could it be made that pistols fire their shot when the model charges, to show that they're taking some last shots before they get fully into combat? This would mean that a plasma pistol shot would hit the closest model, not a model that the opponent challenged? That way you'd still want a powerful melee weapon on a model that might be getting into challenges.

I'd definitely stick though that you can't take a shot in CC as well as get all your standard attacks.... it's not meant to be a huge buff to melee focused models, just something that would encourage you to buy the currently undesired plasma pistol.

As for template pistols, as pointed out above, make them unable to fire or only let them shoot a single target. If you go all out with your flamethrower in CC you're very likely to hurt yourself or your own men, so you only do a short blast at a single foe. For ones that restore wounds, I don't see a problem.

 koooaei wrote:
Some pistols are nasty. For example, Eversor's pistol. Or a melta pistol. It works fine in theory when you have pistols from around s3-5 range and probably plazma - as they're currently used so rarely. But there is a number of pistols that'd be completely broken for the current price.

IIRC pistols used to be active in cc some time ago. It all just got down to +1 attack now to make it easier.

I'd just like to point out that the Eversor's pistol is only "nasty" because the Eversor has a special rule unique to himself. The pistol itself is nothing special- it's a Bolt Pistol, with an alternate, 4+ Poison/AP- profile. Neither one is especially scary until you realize the Eversor gets to fire it four times thanks to his special rule.

Or we could make CC even more broken.....ohh wait thats what this would do.

The idea being that your to busy trying to save your own life that you don't have time to accurately shoot a weapon. Go read the 2011 Marine of the Year award. A marine in Sangin Province with me, while on patrol was reloading his Machine gun when he heard a sound from behind him, turns grabs the machine gun from the taliban coming around the corner, beats the man to death with it. Yes he could have grabbed his pistol but he was to busy trying to stay alive to grab a gun, cock it, aim and fire a shot.

Leave it the way it is.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Or we could make CC even more broken.....ohh wait thats what this would do.

The idea being that your to busy trying to save your own life that you don't have time to accurately shoot a weapon. Go read the 2011 Marine of the Year award. A marine in Sangin Province with me, while on patrol was reloading his Machine gun when he heard a sound from behind him, turns grabs the machine gun from the taliban coming around the corner, beats the man to death with it. Yes he could have grabbed his pistol but he was to busy trying to stay alive to grab a gun, cock it, aim and fire a shot.

Leave it the way it is.

I just assume that the pistol is already in their hand, hence their ability to club you with said pistol

It's not like you're choosing whether to draw and cock the pistol vs using your knife, the thing's already in your hand. The decision your character would be making is whether to shoot plasma at a terminator, or try to punch it to death with said plasma pistol.

Also, would you actually say that CC units are overpowered in this edition? Most people tend to imply anymore that CC is garbage for 90% of units.

Final note, we could make pistols used in CC unwieldy to balance things out, as the whole idea of the unwieldy rule is that it's hard to use the thing.

Actually i was refering to the fact that firing pistols in CC would make it worse for CC units. My CC units don't have access to plasma pistols and I wouldn't want them to use them anyway since they are BS 2. This would break the game even more in favor of higher BS models.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Actually i was refering to the fact that firing pistols in CC would make it worse for CC units. My CC units don't have access to plasma pistols and I wouldn't want them to use them anyway since they are BS 2. This would break the game even more in favor of higher BS models.

Ah, okay. When I originally thought about the idea I was mainly looking for a way to make plasma pistols not quite so garbage, hadn't considered armies that don't have access to pistols. Do you think allowing marines to use their plasma pistols would really hurt orks? Mainly the fact that a plasma pistol shot against generic orks would be less effective than 3 or 4 regular attacks, and against any of your bigger stuff I'd only be able to knock off one wound, after which you'd probably crush me with a PK, vs if I use a maul or fist (with 3 or 4 attacks).

In general I just don't see it as being much more powerful than getting a ton of standard CC attacks, except for a few scenarios (mainly against monstrous creatures and vehicles). In every other scenario a marine would be better with 3 attacks from a power weapon.

Remember, so far I've just wanted it to be that you get a single shot with your pistol instead of your standard melee attacks. And it could always be unwieldy and/or use your WS. It's mainly to make plasma pistols be more than single use in a game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you have time to try shoving a krak grenade of a wraithknights arse, you have more than enough time to fire your plasma pistol up said arse.

I think the idea behind the grenades against MC is your using the only thing that can physically hurt hte thing killing you and your friends.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
I think the idea behind the grenades against MC is your using the only thing that can physically hurt hte thing killing you and your friends.

But krak grenades aren't the only thing that will kill a riptide. In fact, my plasma pistol is what, over 4x more likely to wound it?

right but im talking about the concept behind it and not the specifics. In real life I doubt hitting a riptide with a CC knife would do much more then scratch the paint job. but in this game we have to factor in statlines and things like that so I think the idea behind hte grenades was to help infantry units deal with vehicles and MC.

Because Cypher would pown all the HQs

I think it should work, but only to fire snap shots

 Ghazkuul wrote:
I think the idea behind the grenades against MC is your using the only thing that can physically hurt hte thing killing you and your friends.

Well, since Krak Grenades are like, AP3 that's viable....

Oh, wait, they're not. Krak Grenades are AP4, which means that they're almost useless against pretty much every MC in the game. Let's run some numbers to prove this:

10 Tac Marines (since they're sort of the "best case" option, with WS4 and 'free' Kraks), versus a Carnifex (which is itself fairly laughable). Marines are WS4 vs the 'Fex's WS3, so they have a 66% hitrate. Around 6.7 Kraks land, which wound on 4s (S6 Krak vs T6 Fex), for ~3.23 wounds, which then get saved by the Carnifex's 3+ armor, to the order of only ~1.06 unsaved Wounds.

So, yeah. You put a wound onto something that's got what, 4 or 6 (?) wounds. Meanwhile the Fex hits back with S9, and IIRC AP2 on account of being an MC, and again IIRC it gets something like 3 or 4 attacks. Pretty much gibs 1.5-2 Marines straight up.

Being able to sacrifice attacks to fire a pistol once in close combat would not be broken in the slightest. Especially considering that, off-hand, there's only two units I can think of that can get AP2/AP1 pistols on every single member- SoB Seraphim and various flavors of Marine Vanguard Vets. The former are WS/S/T/I 3, and also come with two pistols (because jump infantry should be using two pistols instead of a proper gun or pistol+ccw, I guess?), and VV are ridiculously expensive when kitted out with dual plasma pistols. Or really with any kind of serious upgrades.

 Filch wrote:
Because Cypher would pown all the HQs

Cypher already uses his pistols in CC, doesn't he? Something like half his attacks are the bolt pistol and half his attacks are plasma?

I agree, as is, I don't see much reason to take pistols at their current price.

How about being able to trade off your CC attacks for a single pistol shot (but at initiative)? - exceptions for gunslinger etc... This wouldn't make a character too powerful (trading lots of attacks for a single nice shot) but has some problems with high strength instant death in challenges though. Reminds me a lot of the "Indiana Jones shoots expert swordsman scene".

I like pistols firing overwatch at full BS but that is not an answer to pistols in CC e.g. when you are doing the charging or ongoing combats.

If pistols ignore having to snap shot or get full bs in snap shot then we will see so many planes get shot of the sky by a 12" pistol...

Again, very few races get high strength pistols and even fewer have Low AP pistols, it would be almost a strictly Imperium buff.

 Filch wrote:
If pistols ignore having to snap shot or get full bs in snap shot then we will see so many planes get shot of the sky by a 12" pistol...

The aforementioned "pistols fire at full BS in overwatch" does not ignore the general penalties of snapfire. It just means that when you are charged, you can use full BS for overwatch fire against the charging unit.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Again, very few races get high strength pistols and even fewer have Low AP pistols, it would be almost a strictly Imperium buff.

Eldar/DE/Harlies all get S7+/AP2- pistols. Not only that, but it's always the case that you have to pay out the nose to get one of these kinds of pistols, and they often come with some other drawback- Plasma Pistols have Gets Hot, Inferno/Fusion/Blast pistols are all 6", Grav Pistols can't kill low-save infantry models.

Be able to exchange some of a model's attacks for ONE pistol shot, which must use the Weapon Skill attribute to hit, is not in the slightest way broken.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Are you going to raise the cost on plasma pistols then? Power Fists are 25, and have only 1 more Strength, but one fewer attack and unwieldy.

God, I hope not. They're already way too expensive.

The leaked draft 6e rulebook let you replace one of your normal attacks with an attack with your pistol, that seems like an effective balancing tool.

If plasma pistols suddenly let you hit at Str 7 AP2 with all your attacks, then they'd suddenly be on every single SM character ever.

Whiskey144 wrote:

 Filch wrote:
If pistols ignore having to snap shot or get full bs in snap shot then we will see so many planes get shot of the sky by a 12" pistol...

The aforementioned "pistols fire at full BS in overwatch" does not ignore the general penalties of snapfire. It just means that when you are charged, you can use full BS for overwatch fire against the charging unit.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Again, very few races get high strength pistols and even fewer have Low AP pistols, it would be almost a strictly Imperium buff.

Eldar/DE/Harlies all get S7+/AP2- pistols. Not only that, but it's always the case that you have to pay out the nose to get one of these kinds of pistols, and they often come with some other drawback- Plasma Pistols have Gets Hot, Inferno/Fusion/Blast pistols are all 6", Grav Pistols can't kill low-save infantry models.

Be able to exchange some of a model's attacks for ONE pistol shot, which must use the Weapon Skill attribute to hit, is not in the slightest way broken.

Its actualy very broken which is why they don't allow you to do it. this would favor shooty armies and make it even that much harder for assault armies (AKA Nids and Orks) to win. If you don't like the plasma pistol because you pay so much for it then just take a bolt pistol and call it a day.

It would be nice to allow pistols to shoot 1 shot in cc using their ranged profile (still using the WS rather than BS of course).

It would certainly make plasma pistols more worthwhile.

However, it would difficult to balance due to the number of models with pistols in the game.

Having tactical squads with ap 5 in cc would make them much more effective vs GEQ for example.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Its actualy very broken which is why they don't allow you to do it. this would favor shooty armies and make it even that much harder for assault armies (AKA Nids and Orks) to win. If you don't like the plasma pistol because you pay so much for it then just take a bolt pistol and call it a day.

Saying "it's very broken which is why it's not allowed", is a blatant copout. Either explain why it's broken, or concede that it's not.

Because it doesn't favor shooty armies, since shooty armies don't buy better pistols since they don't want to get close enough to be assaulted. I mean seriously, is it so hard to understand that 15 points for a plasma pistol is ridiculously overpriced when you consider that it has half the range and potential RoF of a plasma gun that costs the exact same 15 points?

Quite frankly, if you have problems winning with an assault-oriented army, then blame the core mechanics of the game, since the effects of said mechanics make spamming S6/7 guns the easiest, most efficient way to win. 7th is a shooting edition, much like 5th was.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
It would be nice to allow pistols to shoot 1 shot in cc using their ranged profile (still using the WS rather than BS of course).

It would certainly make plasma pistols more worthwhile.

However, it would difficult to balance due to the number of models with pistols in the game.

Having tactical squads with ap 5 in cc would make them much more effective vs GEQ for example.

That's a legitimate concern, since there are quite few models that get to carry pistols in addition to their usual weapons. However, I think that a good way to limit it would be to say that you must trade 2 attacks if you want to fire your pistol in combat. Most of the things that you'll want to shoot in the face with a pistol are usually going to be things that simply punching them isn't going to get the job done. It also means that the only for, as you mentioned, a Tactical squad to get AP5 on combat would be for them to charge- and then they have to deal with getting half as many attacks in exchange for AP5.

OTOH, we could instead make it a character-only rule, given that most of the time it's only character models that get access to the fancy pistols.

 kingbobbito wrote:

 Filch wrote:
Because Cypher would pown all the HQs

Cypher already uses his pistols in CC, doesn't he? Something like half his attacks are the bolt pistol and half his attacks are plasma?

Yah read this and I was like...Cypher has been doing this forever? lol

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Actually i was refering to the fact that firing pistols in CC would make it worse for CC units. My CC units don't have access to plasma pistols and I wouldn't want them to use them anyway since they are BS 2. This would break the game even more in favor of higher BS models.

Wait, are you saying that models with higher BS are better at shooting than models with lower BS? No Way!

What about allowing Pistols a single attack at S: Weapon, AP: -, Unwieldy?

Remember the other pistols, though. Building this around plasma pistols will make bolt pistols and laspistols entirely pointless. If they don't offer an extra attack but have some "make one attack with this weapon" or so, then there's no point at all. Such pistols are usually carried by something that has equal Strength to the pistol, so the (extremely small) AP gain would not be worth it.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
Remember the other pistols, though. Building this around plasma pistols will make bolt pistols and laspistols entirely pointless. If they don't offer an extra attack but have some "make one attack with this weapon" or so, then there's no point at all. Such pistols are usually carried by something that has equal Strength to the pistol, so the (extremely small) AP gain would not be worth it.

No no, you must have misinterpreted what I said. I suggest you can still just count the pistol as a CC weapon, get the +1 attack, use all your melee attacks as normal. You would just have the opton of firing your pistol as an alternative to making your regular melee attacks.

Either do 2+ attacks using your normal melee stats, or get 1 attack using pistol profile. Doesn't hurt models that are carrying crappy pistols, benefits models carrying expensive ones. Nothing is made pointless, you can just get further benefit from something that costs 15 points.

Well, for me, the hitting of the enemy with any pistol (rather than shooting them) is the problem, not the cost of plasma pistols. I'd rather replace the extra attack with a pistol shot, but this does raise an issue with special pistols such as the plasma.

Inferno pistols are quite rare. Perhaps the fix would be to allow what I have just said, but increase Gets Hot in melee to include a 2? An easier comparison than the power fist is the power axe; 15pts (on models that don't have a power weapon as standard), usually Strength 5, AP2, Unwieldy. I don't think normal Gets Hot (and being limited to one use per phase) is sufficient penalty for being at-initiative, Strength 7, and able to be fired at 12''.

I hate to say it, but without a specific restriction to plasma pistols, the only alternative is to increase them in points. I really don't want that, so we'll have to think of something.

Inferno Pistols have a 6" range and cost 15 points. Plasma Pistols are Gets Hot, and cost 15 points.

If my choice is between a Plasma/Inferno Pistol, and a Plasma/Meltagun, then I'm pretty much going to go with the latter every time. A Plasma gun offers superior RoF and range, while costing the same amount, while a Meltagun not only offers superior range (which is quite important for the Melta rule), but is also cheaper!

It's also worth noting that most armies- Imperial or otherwise (like DE) are probably overpaying on power weapons.

Especially the poor DE, who can only get swords, not even something that'd be particularly useful like an axe or maul.

It's be cool but need some point adjustments......

Seraphim would certainly say a huge thank you and so would every Battle Sister who suddenly gets to be S4 in close combat

Also need to define that Furious Charge does not help?

The units engaged in close combat aren't necessarily just hitting the enemy with their pistol though. Close combat is an abstraction that includes hand-to-hand, as well as close range shooting. WS is an amalgamation that covers both.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
Well, for me, the hitting of the enemy with any pistol (rather than shooting them) is the problem, not the cost of plasma pistols. I'd rather replace the extra attack with a pistol shot, but this does raise an issue with special pistols such as the plasma.

Inferno pistols are quite rare. Perhaps the fix would be to allow what I have just said, but increase Gets Hot in melee to include a 2? An easier comparison than the power fist is the power axe; 15pts (on models that don't have a power weapon as standard), usually Strength 5, AP2, Unwieldy. I don't think normal Gets Hot (and being limited to one use per phase) is sufficient penalty for being at-initiative, Strength 7, and able to be fired at 12''.

I hate to say it, but without a specific restriction to plasma pistols, the only alternative is to increase them in points. I really don't want that, so we'll have to think of something.

Which is why I feel my suggestion (S: Weapon, AP: -, Unwieldy) works out well enough. As such, the comparison between Power Axe and Plasma Pistol would be S: 5, AP: 2, Unwieldy versus S: 7, AP: -, Unwieldy (+ the normal utility of the Plasma Pistol's regular shots).

mr. peasant wrote:
Which is why I feel my suggestion (S: Weapon, AP: -, Unwieldy) works out well enough. As such, the comparison between Power Axe and Plasma Pistol would be S: 5, AP: 2, Unwieldy versus S: 7, AP: -, Unwieldy (+ the normal utility of the Plasma Pistol's regular shots).

When would that ever actually be good? The benefit of the plasma pistol is the AP, not the strength, as against anything that strength matters you have krak grenades. Throw in that plasma suddenly losing its AP is honestly a bit silly.

The advantage of the axe over the pistol is that a model carrying a power axe is going to have at least 2 attacks, where if we incorporated a pistol shot it'd be a single shot... thus balance. It's similar to having the option to make a single smash attack.

Whiskey144 wrote:
Inferno Pistols have a 6" range and cost 15 points. Plasma Pistols are Gets Hot, and cost 15 points.

If my choice is between a Plasma/Inferno Pistol, and a Plasma/Meltagun, then I'm pretty much going to go with the latter every time. A Plasma gun offers superior RoF and range, while costing the same amount, while a Meltagun not only offers superior range (which is quite important for the Melta rule), but is also cheaper!

It's also worth noting that most armies- Imperial or otherwise (like DE) are probably overpaying on power weapons.

Especially the poor DE, who can only get swords, not even something that'd be particularly useful like an axe or maul.

Well the point of taking a pistol over a ranged weapon is that you want to get into CC. If you take a Plasma rifle instead of Pistol you CAN'T fire the weapon before assaulting since its Rapid fire. So your point is kinda out of sync with the game mechanics. Furthermore you said it wouldn't break the game, but as I pointed out everyone time you talk about the rule your referring to imperials and DE/Eldar/Chaos. Orks/Nids/Tau/demons 0 bonus for these races. So what your looking at is a bonus that doesn't benefit the three biggest CC armies in the game and for one of the biggest shooty armies. What you do is buff the lists that aren't great at CC but aren't terrible at it. Imperials/Chaos/Eldar/DE.

Broken mechanic, as I have shown in the reason in previous posts and this one. You can say its a "Cop out" if you would like but then you are basically denying the fact that it would break the assault mechanic even more, and ruin the fun for assault armies.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Well the point of taking a pistol over a ranged weapon is that you want to get into CC. If you take a Plasma rifle instead of Pistol you CAN'T fire the weapon before assaulting since its Rapid fire.

You might have had a point, were it not the case that there is not any unit I can think of off hand that has access to both the plasma gun and the plasma pistol and would want to get into combat. In other words, the units that can get both are almost invariably shooting centric, and so do not want to get into assault. What makes it even worse is that most Marine/Sisters characters can instead pay 66% the price of a plasma pistol to get a combi-weapon.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
So your point is kinda out of sync with the game mechanics.

Nooo, my point is that any unit which can take both a plasma gun and plasma pistol has no need for the pistol in the first place, as they don't want to be in combat, and can get access to a noticeably cheaper combi-weapon to pretty much do the same job.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Furthermore you said it wouldn't break the game, but as I pointed out everyone time you talk about the rule your referring to imperials and DE/Eldar/Chaos. Orks/Nids/Tau/demons 0 bonus for these races. So what your looking at is a bonus that doesn't benefit the three biggest CC armies in the game and for one of the biggest shooty armies. What you do is buff the lists that aren't great at CC but aren't terrible at it. Imperials/Chaos/Eldar/DE.

Okay, let me break this down for you since you don't seem to get it:

Tau have almost no units that actually want to be in combat. Not only that, but the only Tau unit to have a pistol weapon (IIRC) is the Sniper Drone target designator-dude. Given that Tau are WS/I 2, it's pretty obvious that it doesn't matter if he can make a single S5/AP5 attack in combat, he's screwed and this would never change that.

Nids generally have the volume or quality of attacks to not actually care; I assume that Orks would as well. Daemons all have built-in Invulnerable saves, though I also admit to being very unfamiliar with the Daemons book.

As far as the Imperial, Chaos, and Eldar/DE books... DE really need all the help they can get, Eldar admittedly need no buffs- but when was the last time you saw an Eldar list bring anything for the sole purpose of using it to assault things? Chaos Marines are actually one of the worst armies in the game right now, particularly considering that basic CSMs are overpriced and almost invariably overshadowed by Cult units (IE, Zerks/Plagues). IG has what, one useful assault unit, and everything else pretty much boils down to "tarpit/bubblewrap". The particularly punchy unit in the Sisters list is, IIRC, limited to Repentia... who don't actually have guns (and have S6 unwieldy anyways), while Marines either have assault units that don't really care about their pistols (ASM, VV, Honor Guard), or don't actually carry pistols (Hammer/Clawnators, AssCents).

Not only that, but units which are combat-oriented, and can all take pistol upgrades are very rare- just in the vanilla Marine book, it's actually limited entirely to VVs. ASM can take Plasma Pistols as a special weapon... but it's also very overpriced and competes with the generally more useful flamer. Honor Guard can't take any pistol upgrades, while Terminators and Centurions have no access to pistols whatsoever.

Quite frankly, at this point I think your problem has more to do with Orks/Nids/Daemons simply not getting pistols (or worthwhile ones, at least) in the first place. Not only that, but everyone seems to keep saying that things like "trade some/all attacks for a single pistol shot" and "pistol shot must use the Weapon Skill trait to determine hits". Which, incidentally, means that said pistol is going to hit less often when in the hands of models with better BS, as many such models are either equal WS/BS- but simultaneously are fighting WS4 opponents (WS4 is, AFAIK, the 'benchmark' of minimum acceptable WS values for useful assault units)- or they actually have inferior WS.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Broken mechanic, as I have shown in the reason in previous posts and this one.

You have shown no actual evidence that it's broken beyond blithering on about how it 'buffs' only "Imperial/CSM/Eldar/DE", and that it must be broken because GW didn't implement it.

Riptides say hello, by the way.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
You can say its a "Cop out" if you would like but then you are basically denying the fact that it would break the assault mechanic even more, and ruin the fun for assault armies.

Hardly. All you have done is complain that it's broken, as per your arguments that I mentioned above. You have provided no concrete evidence that it is actually broken to allow a model to exchange some/all of their CC attacks in favor of making a single attack using the S/AP values of an equipped sidearm.

In fact, here's a very nicely balanced (IMO) variation on what's been proposed in this thread:

A Model may choose to forgo all of its normal attacks, in favor of firing an equipped pistol in combat. Models that choose to do so substitute their Strength values for the Strength of the pistol, and use the pistol's AP value as well. However, due to the difficulty of lining up a clean shot in the hectic environment of close combat, a model must use its WS trait to make the To-Hit roll, as if it were making a normal combat attack; IE a model is WS and BS 4, and is in combat with another model of the same WS; it would hit on a 4+, rather than the 3+ that using the BS trait would permit when shooting normally. Moreover, any model which does so must make the attack as if it was using a combat weapon with the Unwieldy trait, at Initiative step 1.

That acceptable to you, Ghaz? Or is it "too broken" for a model to be able to use its pistol in CC as an Unwieldy weapon that only allows for one attack.

Another thing is that many s3 models have s4 pistols. As mentioned above, SOB will all suddenly become s4 in mellee. And orks would have s4 attack in the 2-d round of combat or if getting charged.

 koooaei wrote:
Another thing is that many s3 models have s4 pistols. As mentioned above, SOB will all suddenly become s4 in mellee. And orks would have s4 attack in the 2-d round of combat or if getting charged.

Did you not read the bit about it being a single attack? No one is proposing that we replace all the models attacks with the pistol profile (Though if we're being fluffy at least Seraphim should be able to do this).

I think a single shot replacing one attack using WS to hit is more than fine. For all the high S low AP pistols you're paying power weapon prices for an upgrade to one attack. Think of it being like the new Harlequin Kiss. For the bolt pistols it's a minor S/AP buff depending on the model using it.

As for Orks not benefitting...well they do, slightly, as all your slugga boyz now get one S4 attack with an AP value with their much better WS when they don't charge. Plus with this change, there might be more reason to put more pistols in the game in the future for more races.

 Tarrasq wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Another thing is that many s3 models have s4 pistols. As mentioned above, SOB will all suddenly become s4 in mellee. And orks would have s4 attack in the 2-d round of combat or if getting charged.

Did you not read the bit about it being a single attack? No one is proposing that we replace all the models attacks with the pistol profile (Though if we're being fluffy at least Seraphim should be able to do this).

Maybe you should read my post more carefully. Nowhere have i stated such stuff.

 koooaei wrote:

As for Orks not benefitting...well they do, slightly, as all your slugga boyz now get one S4 attack with an AP value with their much better WS when they don't charge. Plus with this change, there might be more reason to put more pistols in the game in the future for more races.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

1 S4 AP6 shot per boy using WS4 OR 3 attacks per boy using WS4 S3 AP-

10 boyz shooting 10 pistols hitting on 3s = 7-8 hits and on a T4 model thats 3-4 wounds.
10 Boyz using CC attacks is 30 Attacks hitting on 3s = 20 hits S3 so wounding T4 models on a 5 = 6-7 wounds.

Why would an ork player ever choose to do with except against T7+ things? And here I would just use my Nob PK to eat it.

This proposal would benefit armies with access to powerful pistols that aren't great in close combat. Yes I am aware that not many armies can take pistols across the board, however lets take the most popular army. Space marines, instead of giving your sergeant a Power fist and a veteran upgrade you can just give him a S7 AP2 plasma pistol and he can deal with most opponents. Its not the assault elements I am worried about its the random characters rolling around the board who I want to kill to reduce leadership who will be able to ignore my armor saves and be able to kill characters in challenge with a single shot.


I have shown you how this would break CC even more and you choose to ignore them.

You compare Plasma Rifles to Pistols and how a rifle is better, then I point out the entire point behind equipping a pistol and you say that no unit would use it because they don't want to be in the assault anyway. Sorry for not being clear enough, my point was that the reason for the price is because it allows units to shoot and assault and its a powerful pistol so it has to cost 10-15 points. Yeah you could take a flamer instead but I am not comparing a pistol to a flamer. (flame pistols aside). This as I have shown would benefit only 1/2 the armies in the game and if you look at the 2014 Las Vegas open winners list you will see that the list of winners is entirely the ones who would benefit from this rule change. Clearly these armies do not need anymore buffs.

I'd love it if I could use my inferno pistols in CC. It would make my Canoness downright vicious, not to mention what it would mean for Seraphim squads.

Furyou what happens if you shoot your inferno pistol in the shooting phase and dont kill a vehicle and you charge in. Do you get another chance with it? and since your definitely within 3 inches do you get to use the Melta special rule?

Swapping all attacks for 1 pistol shot is a silly idea.

Swapping 1 attack for a pistol shot makes more sense.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Swapping all attacks for 1 pistol shot is a silly idea.

Swapping 1 attack for a pistol shot makes more sense.

And would not be allowed for the reasons I stated before.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

This proposal would benefit armies with access to powerful pistols that aren't great in close combat. Yes I am aware that not many armies can take pistols across the board, however lets take the most popular army. Space marines, instead of giving your sergeant a Power fist and a veteran upgrade you can just give him a S7 AP2 plasma pistol and he can deal with most opponents. Its not the assault elements I am worried about its the random characters rolling around the board who I want to kill to reduce leadership who will be able to ignore my armor saves and be able to kill characters in challenge with a single shot.

Let's look then at a pistol vs a power axe or fist. Right now, I have two models with plasma pistols. A veteran sergeant, and a company master. I'll assume no charge.

The sergeant gets two base attacks, and has two CC weapons. If I give him an axe, he gets 3 attacks, S5 AP2. Against T3, it's marginally better than a pistol shot, against T4 it's still better, even better on the charge.

My company master has a fist. 3 attacks with it. That's 3 ID attacks, vs 1 S7 pistol shot. If I give him an axe instead, that's 4 attacks, vs 1 with a pistol.

A pistol has about a 41% chance of a wound, an axe in the hands of a sergeant will get 1 wound on average against T4. A company master with an axe will on average get 1 and 3/4 wounds.

Explain to me when a pistol is superior to a power weapon? Anything that can take a pistol is better off with a power weapon, unless they're facing MCs.

 kingbobbito wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

This proposal would benefit armies with access to powerful pistols that aren't great in close combat. Yes I am aware that not many armies can take pistols across the board, however lets take the most popular army. Space marines, instead of giving your sergeant a Power fist and a veteran upgrade you can just give him a S7 AP2 plasma pistol and he can deal with most opponents. Its not the assault elements I am worried about its the random characters rolling around the board who I want to kill to reduce leadership who will be able to ignore my armor saves and be able to kill characters in challenge with a single shot.

Let's look then at a pistol vs a power axe or fist. Right now, I have two models with plasma pistols. A veteran sergeant, and a company master. I'll assume no charge.

The sergeant gets two base attacks, and has two CC weapons. If I give him an axe, he gets 3 attacks, S5 AP2. Against T3, it's marginally better than a pistol shot, against T4 it's still better, even better on the charge.

My company master has a fist. 3 attacks with it. That's 3 ID attacks, vs 1 S7 pistol shot. If I give him an axe instead, that's 4 attacks, vs 1 with a pistol.

A pistol has about a 41% chance of a wound, an axe in the hands of a sergeant will get 1 wound on average against T4. A company master with an axe will on average get 1 and 3/4 wounds.

Explain to me when a pistol is superior to a power weapon? Anything that can take a pistol is better off with a power weapon, unless they're facing MCs.

Well the main difference is the cost - at the moment a Battle Sister squad is all S3 AP - with the upgrade they are all now S4 AP5 which is much better as they tend to strike 2nd anyway at I3.

The Melta range question is interesting and also means you would not bother with Melta bombs?

IMO, the rule should be like the new Harlequin Kiss, with 1 of your attacks is replaced with a different profile.
However, if I were to make a similar rule to pistols, I would limit it to 1 attack with the profile, unless it replaces your only attack. For example:

SM have 1A. He gets charged. He has a pistol, which allows him to substitute 1 of his attacks with the Bolt Pistol (or plasma pistol, if he has one) profile. However, he's not allowed to do so, because he can't substitute his only available attack with the pistol profile. If he was charging, on the other hand, he would have 2 attacks available and thus he would be able to substitute 1 of his available attacks with the Bolt Pistol profile.

Furthermore, any weapons with blast/template in their profile can't be used to subsitute an attack in CC, due to the dangers of such weaponry being used in such a close proximity.

Gunslinger: Same rules as in BRB but with the added rules that they can substitute all their attacks with their equipped pistols (although they can only chose the profile of 1 pistol, in case of the model being equipped with 2 different pistols)

That way would mostly buff tactical marines IF they were charging and it wouldn't ruin it for charging GEQ armies, who would suddenly face AP5 CC attacks from units that didn't have it before. Furthermore, it would buff weaker assault units, like ASM and (Wyches with CC splinter weapons!) and if you give your tac marine sergeant a plasma pistol, you wouldn't be able to pick a combi-weapon or bolter, if you just want to have a free S7 AP2 attack, unless you either pay the cost for a veteran marine or sacrifice your bolter/combi-weapon for a chainsword, which in turn sacrifices ranged offense.

IMO, the rule should be like the new Harlequin Kiss, with 1 of your attacks is replaced with a different profile.
However, if I were to make a similar rule to pistols, I would limit it to 1 attack with the profile, unless it replaces your only attack

Like it. Was thinking the same thing.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Whiskey144 wrote:

 Filch wrote:
If pistols ignore having to snap shot or get full bs in snap shot then we will see so many planes get shot of the sky by a 12" pistol...

The aforementioned "pistols fire at full BS in overwatch" does not ignore the general penalties of snapfire. It just means that when you are charged, you can use full BS for overwatch fire against the charging unit.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Again, very few races get high strength pistols and even fewer have Low AP pistols, it would be almost a strictly Imperium buff.

Eldar/DE/Harlies all get S7+/AP2- pistols. Not only that, but it's always the case that you have to pay out the nose to get one of these kinds of pistols, and they often come with some other drawback- Plasma Pistols have Gets Hot, Inferno/Fusion/Blast pistols are all 6", Grav Pistols can't kill low-save infantry models.

Be able to exchange some of a model's attacks for ONE pistol shot, which must use the Weapon Skill attribute to hit, is not in the slightest way broken.

Its actualy very broken which is why they don't allow you to do it. this would favor shooty armies and make it even that much harder for assault armies (AKA Nids and Orks) to win. If you don't like the plasma pistol because you pay so much for it then just take a bolt pistol and call it a day.

We are talking about 1 shot here man. It would actually be to your benefit, slugga boys would get a str4 attack that hits on 3's with their pistol attack - better than their base str. it would only help after the first round though cause you get furious charge prolly.

It would not help as I showed you. 1 shot at S4 vs 3 attacks at S3. better chance to wound with the 3 attacks.

The reason it would be broken as i stated and everyone seems to have forgotten about is you can replace your sergeants Powerfists/power axes which cost 20+ pts i think (I dont have my codex nearby) and you wouldn't have to upgrade them to veteran status to make the Fist/axe worth a darn. You save points and you take care of the point of having a High strength low AP weapon. THAT is why it would be broken.

as I said, Orks, Nids, Tau, demons would have 0 Benefit from this rule change and as I showed you, those are the armies who aren't winning tournaments so why would you buff everyone else and nerf them that much more?

 Ghazkuul wrote:
It would not help as I showed you. 1 shot at S4 vs 3 attacks at S3. better chance to wound with the 3 attacks.

The reason it would be broken as i stated and everyone seems to have forgotten about is you can replace your sergeants Powerfists/power axes which cost 20+ pts i think (I dont have my codex nearby) and you wouldn't have to upgrade them to veteran status to make the Fist/axe worth a darn. You save points and you take care of the point of having a High strength low AP weapon. THAT is why it would be broken.

as I said, Orks, Nids, Tau, demons would have 0 Benefit from this rule change and as I showed you, those are the armies who aren't winning tournaments so why would you buff everyone else and nerf them that much more?

Tyranids won LVO. Demons/inq aswell as CSM/Demons made it to top 8.
Furthermore, the point isn't to buff specific armies, but to buff (mainly) specific weak CC units in an edition that favours shooting. Wyches, ASM and Raptors, piss poor units, would get a well needed buff and pistol weapons, that are laughably (and undeniably) overpriced, would finally have a purpose aswell as a justified reason for them to be included.
Furthermore, I can't admit that I can even follow your logic about plasma pistols being better than power weapons. 15 points for 1 attack at S7 AP2, is not superior to 3 attacks at S5 AP2, except against MC's and even then, it's still 15 points. The same price you pay for power weapons, I can't see how it's somehow "supperior" or "free". Especially not when it's limited to 1 attack that, generally, only hits 50% of the time in CC.

Ghazkuul wrote:Furyou what happens if you shoot your inferno pistol in the shooting phase and dont kill a vehicle and you charge in. Do you get another chance with it? and since your definitely within 3 inches do you get to use the Melta special rule?

What, normally? No, you fire your pistols then you charge and use your grenades. Of course, since Seraphim tend to carry four inferno pistols if they have any at all, it's not exactly a situation that comes up often.

Ghazkuul wrote:It would not help as I showed you. 1 shot at S4 vs 3 attacks at S3. better chance to wound with the 3 attacks.

The reason it would be broken as i stated and everyone seems to have forgotten about is you can replace your sergeants Powerfists/power axes which cost 20+ pts i think (I dont have my codex nearby) and you wouldn't have to upgrade them to veteran status to make the Fist/axe worth a darn. You save points and you take care of the point of having a High strength low AP weapon. THAT is why it would be broken.

as I said, Orks, Nids, Tau, demons would have 0 Benefit from this rule change and as I showed you, those are the armies who aren't winning tournaments so why would you buff everyone else and nerf them that much more?

Power Weapons are 15, Power Fists are 20 I think. Eviscerators are overpriced at 30.

If they dropped power weapons to 10 points (which probably sounds insane to MEq players), then the pistols at 15 would be fine.

its because you get to shoot the pistol in the shooting phase and then again in CC, your doubling its shot out put per turn.

yes, you would be with the proposed rules. To be honest, inferno pistol seraphim are over-priced at the moment for what they do - they pay 36 points for a T3 3+/6++ model with two inferno pistols. In comparison, they compete with Dominions, which pay 24 points for a T3 3+/6++ model with an Ignores Cover meltagun.

Damage output is the same across the squad - dominions can have four models with special weapons, Seraphim can only have two - except the Dominions ignore cover and don't lose effectiveness as quickly from being wounded. Dominion extra range is offset by Seraphim mobility though.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
its because you get to shoot the pistol in the shooting phase and then again in CC, your doubling its shot out put per turn.

Which would be a less flawed arguement, if it weren't for the fact that the 1 shot (usually once per game) is priced at 15 points, which is in the absurd end of being overpriced. Shooting 1 shot, with 67% chance to hit and 16% to overheat, then overwatch with 16% chance to hit (and overheat) and then use it in CC with (normally) a 50% chance to hit, is FAR from the OP nightmare pedestal you seem to put the plasma pistol on. Especially not with a pricetag that either doubles or nearly quadruples the total cost of the model that can take it.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
its because you get to shoot the pistol in the shooting phase and then again in CC, your doubling its shot out put per turn.

Which would still make the pistol slightly weaker than an axe, which costs the same. As I said, less than a 50% chance to score a wound with the pistol in CC, combined with a slightly higher chance of scoring one during shooting. Versus, the axe, which will score at least 1 wound (or more, if anyone that's actually meant to be in CC has it). The pistol shot that's made during the shooting phase could also be screened by a weaker model, leaving only that poor chance of getting a wound against a character in CC. Versus, the axe, which will score at least 1 wound in CC against the character.

Again, literally the only time that this makes the pistol better is against MC and vehicles when you don't have melta bombs (which still have a role, as they outperform the pistol against vehicles, especially things like LRs).

As for things like sisters, you're losing initiative to get that S4 shot. I3 means you're only losing out against marines, eldar, and daemons. Using the pistol would mean guard, necrons, orks, tau all hit before you.

every example so far that everyone has given has been imperial. And thats why i think its a bad idea.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
every example so far that everyone has given has been imperial. And thats why i think its a bad idea.

So in other words, you're just butthurt that Orks don't get cool pistols. I'm a little short on time right now, but I'm sure we could point out a lot of situations where such a change would benefits things like, say, Wyches. Which are widely acknowledged to be one of the worst assault units in the entire game.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
every example so far that everyone has given has been imperial. And thats why i think its a bad idea.

You're being very biased then.

The suggestion I made (the one with the pistol substituting 1 available attack but not if it's the only attack left to substitute) would be a straight buff to your slugga boys, with 2/3 normal S3/4 (depending on charge) and 1 additional S4 AP5 attack.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
every example so far that everyone has given has been imperial. And thats why i think its a bad idea.

Fusion pistols. Particle casters. Blast pistols. Splinter pistols. 'Nids get nothing and Orks get only a bit but everyone else has bonuses.

If you could use pistols in close combat at full statline, it would make close combat weapons pointless.

Think about it. A plasma pistol is an AP2 weapon. That would strike at Initiative.

Any "realistic" depiction of firearms makes melee weapons redundant-- just like in real life! So if you want your chainswords and power axes, don't let pistols use their profiles in melee combat.

I'm trying to figure out how a model who can only expect to fire a pistol once at a target that isn't actively trying to knock the gun from his hand or wrestle the weapon or whatever suddenly gets to shoot two to four times when opponent starts swinging at him with a power sword.

If the user of the pistol only got to shoot it once and had to give up all his other CC attacks to do so (special characters with Cypher notwithstanding due to their special rules) then I could see it making sense.

Otherwise, all you're doing is making all Marines AP5 or better in CC

Alcibiades wrote:If you could use pistols in close combat at full statline, it would make close combat weapons pointless.

Think about it. A plasma pistol is an AP2 weapon. That would strike at Initiative.

Any "realistic" depiction of firearms makes melee weapons redundant-- just like in real life! So if you want your chainswords and power axes, don't let pistols use their profiles in melee combat.

Jefffar wrote:I'm trying to figure out how a model who can only expect to fire a pistol once at a target that isn't actively trying to knock the gun from his hand or wrestle the weapon or whatever suddenly gets to shoot two to four times when opponent starts swinging at him with a power sword.

If the user of the pistol only got to shoot it once and had to give up all his other CC attacks to do so (special characters with Cypher notwithstanding due to their special rules) then I could see it making sense.

Otherwise, all you're doing is making all Marines AP5 or better in CC

Did either of you read a single word of this thread?

Other than a handful, everyone has agreed that pistols would use their profile, but would only get a single unwieldy attack. Trying to get in a good shot while also dodging your opponents attacks. None of this is some crazy 4 shot kill all turbo marine, it's a guy that would otherwise have three attacks with a melee weapon getting 1 unwieldy plasma shot.

Alcibiades wrote:
If you could use pistols in close combat at full statline, it would make close combat weapons pointless.

Think about it. A plasma pistol is an AP2 weapon. That would strike at Initiative.

Any "realistic" depiction of firearms makes melee weapons redundant-- just like in real life! So if you want your chainswords and power axes, don't let pistols use their profiles in melee combat.

Did you even read the thread? I ask because- at least IMO- most people who agree with this also tend to recommend that some/all attacks are exchanged for one pistol shot. My own opinion is that this pistol shot should additionally be "Unwieldy" when used in combat, to better represent the difficulty of getting a clean shot in the hectic environment of hand-to-hand combat.

Also consider the fact that there's quite a few things that have AP2 at initiative, and get multiple such attacks. Also, most models that can take Plasma Pistols (or the equivalent) are I3 or at best I4.

Jefffar wrote:
I'm trying to figure out how a model who can only expect to fire a pistol once at a target that isn't actively trying to knock the gun from his hand or wrestle the weapon or whatever suddenly gets to shoot two to four times when opponent starts swinging at him with a power sword.

If the user of the pistol only got to shoot it once and had to give up all his other CC attacks to do so (special characters with Cypher notwithstanding due to their special rules) then I could see it making sense.

Otherwise, all you're doing is making all Marines AP5 or better in CC

Again, nobody is suggesting that a model can fire its pistol for every attack its profile includes. The general consensus seems to be:

-Must have at least 2 attacks in order to make an attack with the pistol
-Exchanges one attack for only one attack with the pistol

I personally would add in "Unwieldy" for certain high-strength pistols (IE, plasma/inferno/fusion/blast), as these are comparable to slightly-better-than S3 w/ PF to S4 w/ PF, seasoning with AP1 for the melta variants. Making things like las/bolt/shuriken/splinter pistols also have "Unwieldy" would be somewhat nonsensical, due to the fact that such pistols are of middling utility- though I'd certainly love to see Wyches get the option to use their Splinter Pistols in combat in such a way, as it'd be a huge buff for them, considering how gak they are.

EDIT:

 kingbobbito wrote:
Other than a handful, everyone has agreed that pistols would use their profile, but would only get a single unwieldy attack. Trying to get in a good shot while also dodging your opponents attacks. None of this is some crazy 4 shot kill all turbo marine, it's a guy that would otherwise have three attacks with a melee weapon getting 1 unwieldy plasma shot.

I'd amend it to only certain, particularly high-strength pistols, having Unwieldy. I don't think it'd be particularly broken for Las/Bolt/Shuriken/Splinter/Slugga pistols to not be Unwieldy.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

As for Orks not benefitting...well they do, slightly, as all your slugga boyz now get one S4 attack with an AP value with their much better WS when they don't charge. Plus with this change, there might be more reason to put more pistols in the game in the future for more races.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

1 S4 AP6 shot per boy using WS4 OR 3 attacks per boy using WS4 S3 AP-

10 boyz shooting 10 pistols hitting on 3s = 7-8 hits and on a T4 model thats 3-4 wounds.
10 Boyz using CC attacks is 30 Attacks hitting on 3s = 20 hits S3 so wounding T4 models on a 5 = 6-7 wounds.

Why would an ork player ever choose to do with except against T7+ things? And here I would just use my Nob PK to eat it.

This proposal would benefit armies with access to powerful pistols that aren't great in close combat. Yes I am aware that not many armies can take pistols across the board, however lets take the most popular army. Space marines, instead of giving your sergeant a Power fist and a veteran upgrade you can just give him a S7 AP2 plasma pistol and he can deal with most opponents. Its not the assault elements I am worried about its the random characters rolling around the board who I want to kill to reduce leadership who will be able to ignore my armor saves and be able to kill characters in challenge with a single shot.


I have shown you how this would break CC even more and you choose to ignore them.

You compare Plasma Rifles to Pistols and how a rifle is better, then I point out the entire point behind equipping a pistol and you say that no unit would use it because they don't want to be in the assault anyway. Sorry for not being clear enough, my point was that the reason for the price is because it allows units to shoot and assault and its a powerful pistol so it has to cost 10-15 points. Yeah you could take a flamer instead but I am not comparing a pistol to a flamer. (flame pistols aside). This as I have shown would benefit only 1/2 the armies in the game and if you look at the 2014 Las Vegas open winners list you will see that the list of winners is entirely the ones who would benefit from this rule change. Clearly these armies do not need anymore buffs.

We were talking about ADDITIONAL pistol attacks - not one instead of all the mellee attacks. Means 2 s3 and 1 s4 ap6 for free.

It would break 2+ even more. The terminator rant in this forum complains about how there is so much AP2 weapons around. This rule would allow a unit of assault marines with maxed out plasma pistols to jump to the termies, fire 3 shots killing 1-2 and then assault and kill 2-3. In return the assault marines might lose 2-3 marines but still thats 130pt unit killing a 200+ unit of termies.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
It would break 2+ even more. The terminator rant in this forum complains about how there is so much AP2 weapons around. This rule would allow a unit of assault marines with maxed out plasma pistols to jump to the termies, fire 3 shots killing 1-2 and then assault and kill 2-3. In return the assault marines might lose 2-3 marines but still thats 130pt unit killing a 200+ unit of termies.

A valid consideration. But statistically speaking it would go something like:

5 ASM shoots and cause around 1.222 wounds (2 bolt pistols + 3 plasma pistols)
5 ASM attacks, this is assuming charge, in CC and cause around 1.333 wounds (12 CCW + 3 plasma pistol profile)
5 ASM attacks, this is assuming no charge, in CC and cause around 1.125 wounds (7 CCW + 3 plasma pistol profile)

So assuming best case scenario (the ASM gets to charge with no deaths to overwatch and suffer no losses in the enemy's shooting phase). A squad of 5 ASM, fully geared with 3 Plasma pistols, and nothing else, can expect to generally kill 2,555 terminators, assuming the terminators don't have storm shields.
This hardly sounds game breaking to me, and this is even in the light end of AP2 spam that terminators can normally expect to face. Your scenario also assumes that the terminators are out in the open and not in a Land Raider, or another transport, and that your opponent will somehow allow a unit with 3 sources of AP2 weapons to go forward, unmolested.

3 Plasma pistols hitting on 3s = 2 hits and wounding on 2s = 2 wounds. Termies get a 5++ so theres a 1/3rd chance to save one of them.

im not adding in all the fractions and the 1/6th chance to roll a 1 but realistically your going to kill 2 terminators with this in most cases. in the assault the ASM get 15 attacks and 3 are the pistol so 12 melee attacks. 6 hits and 3 wounds = 1/2 chance to kill 1 terminator, 3 pistol shots = 1-2 hits and 1-2 wounds with a 5++ = 1 more dead terminator.

And unless they make the pistol shots unwieldy to go at init 1 then that means the termies just lost 2-4 models out of a squad of usually 5.

And yes im assuming they are in the open because im explaining how it will annoy marine players even more with the AP2 spam.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
3 Plasma pistols hitting on 3s = 2 hits and wounding on 2s = 2 wounds. Termies get a 5++ so theres a 1/3rd chance to save one of them.

im not adding in all the fractions and the 1/6th chance to roll a 1 but realistically your going to kill 2 terminators with this in most cases. in the assault the ASM get 15 attacks and 3 are the pistol so 12 melee attacks. 6 hits and 3 wounds = 1/2 chance to kill 1 terminator, 3 pistol shots = 1-2 hits and 1-2 wounds with a 5++ = 1 more dead terminator.

And unless they make the pistol shots unwieldy to go at init 1 then that means the termies just lost 2-4 models out of a squad of usually 5.

And yes im assuming they are in the open because im explaining how it will annoy marine players even more with the AP2 spam.

If people spend point on ASM to spam plasma, then the list will need to sacrifice something in return. Between grav guns bikers, TFC's, grav cents, smashfucker, stormtalons and stern guards and the obligatory tax troops, the 130 points you would need to spend suddenly becomes much more tight.

Besides, you're making up scenarios to prove your point. A point that falls flat because a) you're assuming anyone actually favours tac termies and not those with storm shields and b) you're assuming that the terminators are out in the open, with no transport or cover.

 Zewrath wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
3 Plasma pistols hitting on 3s = 2 hits and wounding on 2s = 2 wounds. Termies get a 5++ so theres a 1/3rd chance to save one of them.

im not adding in all the fractions and the 1/6th chance to roll a 1 but realistically your going to kill 2 terminators with this in most cases. in the assault the ASM get 15 attacks and 3 are the pistol so 12 melee attacks. 6 hits and 3 wounds = 1/2 chance to kill 1 terminator, 3 pistol shots = 1-2 hits and 1-2 wounds with a 5++ = 1 more dead terminator.

And unless they make the pistol shots unwieldy to go at init 1 then that means the termies just lost 2-4 models out of a squad of usually 5.

And yes im assuming they are in the open because im explaining how it will annoy marine players even more with the AP2 spam.

If people spend point on ASM to spam plasma, then the list will need to sacrifice something in return. Between grav guns bikers, TFC's, grav cents, smashfucker, stormtalons and stern guards and the obligatory tax troops, the 130 points you would need to spend suddenly becomes much more tight.

Besides, you're making up scenarios to prove your point. A point that falls flat because a) you're assuming anyone actually favours tac termies and not those with storm shields and b) you're assuming that the terminators are out in the open, with no transport or cover.

\

Not trying to assume anything, I am just pointing out that this game has massive amounts of AP2 weapons already and by buffing a few more of them to increase shot capacity per turn you are making 2+ armor unviable. You can change terminators in the open to Meganobz in the assault or the TEQ in any army. My point is that it will cause to many problems with the game as it stands, minor tweaks are ok this is a major one that will require significant changes across the board.

CC is boring as p*$$. I welcome anything that makes it more dynamic.

Trading one close combat attack for ONE shot with a pistol, at initiative step 1 just isn't game breaking when compared to stupid crap like Draigo Stars, or Lias Issodon's Warlord Trait Smorgasbord, or 'tanking' wounds because your LOL Chapter Master happens to be standing 'closest' the unit firing at his unit.

The rules do not have to be a Simulation (i.e. bedded in reality), nor should they be. The rules don't have to be Fluff Compliant either. The rules should, however, reflect the fluff whenever possible (reasonably possible--whatever that means).

Using the pistol's profile for ONE attack in CC would bring the rules into better alignment with the fluff, without being game breaking. So, it's an admirable idea to do so.

If they do it then every race would have to receive a pistol similar to the Plasma/inferno to make it more balanced for everyone. Right now i believe the most powerful pistol an ork can take is Mek only.

So in other words you've finally realized that this isn't actually broken, and would simply like to see Orks get cool pistols too.

Would have been nice if you'd just said that from the start instead of trying to go all "Orks don't get cool pistols, so everyone else's cool pistols have to be gak".

I've been not taking special pistols for so long that I never even considered them for a "fix".

TBH, I'd argue that special pistols occupy a very weird spot; you buy them to get a special pistol shot... but most of the time you're going to buy them for a CC-oriented unit.

Which will then proceed to pretty much waste most of that investment when it gets locked into combat for a turn or two, and doesn't actually have the opportunity to fire the pistol more than once- if that, considering that the melta-variation pistols and the DE Blast Pistol are all of 6" of range.

Can I get Shuriken Catapults to fire in Assault too? They only get to fire once or fewer times per game also.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Can I get Shuriken Catapults to fire in Assault too? They only get to fire once or fewer times per game also.

For starters, they get two shots in the shooting phase. AKA firing more than once. Oh, and the fact that they're not a pistol. Next time try to think a little before you make a suggestion that in no way applies to the discussion.

The goal of this all isn't to make ranged units better in melee, it's to make melee units better in melee.

 kingbobbito wrote:

The goal of this all isn't to make ranged units better in melee, it's to make melee units better in melee.

Based on biased logic that primarily benefits the armies you actually play.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 kingbobbito wrote:

The goal of this all isn't to make ranged units better in melee, it's to make melee units better in melee.

Based on biased logic that primarily benefits the armies you actually play.

As opposed to you demanding buffs to Eldar every time someone wants to improve bad units?

Whiskey144 wrote:
So in other words you've finally realized that this isn't actually broken, and would simply like to see Orks get cool pistols too.

Would have been nice if you'd just said that from the start instead of trying to go all "Orks don't get cool pistols, so everyone else's cool pistols have to be gak".

Or, god forbid, I was using an army I am intimately familiar with to better show my point. And no, I don't think this is a good rule I still think it is broken. This edition is shooty enough without adding this nonsense into it. Orkz don't need cool pistols, we get cool axes and chainswords and even some big metal pipes we can beat you with. My point, even though you and your marine buddies still fail to see, is that this would only benefit a few of the armies in this game and make it more unbalanced.


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To keep the scale balanced if you add something to side one you have to add something to side two. What would you propose giving to the other armies that don't use pistols like Plasma, Inferno or the DE/Eldar equivalents?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

As opposed to you demanding buffs to Eldar every time someone wants to improve bad units?

No one agrees any of the Eldar things I mention should be buffed, not even me. That's the point.

Using spurious logic that applies equally to those Eldar things is proof that it's poor logic.

Probably the best move is to just make the pistols cheaper. Because they don't get any consideration from me as they are right now.

Martel732 wrote:
Probably the best move is to just make the pistols cheaper. Because they don't get any consideration from me as they are right now.

I'm with Martel here, simply dropping their points to reflect their limited use is better for streamlining and avoiding complicated matters concerning odd scenarios where it might result in rules issues. I definitely think if they made things like plasma pistols 10 ppm and inferno pistols 5 ppm (given that a meltagun is 10 points and has longer range). I think its best if Cypher remains the only character that can actually use his pistols in CC. There just needs to be more opportunities for models to gain access to gunslinger.

I wouldn't mind that upgrade that much, but as I said, every upgrade offered so far and every example has been imperial, does that mean that my KMS should cost 5pts instead of 10?

BTW as an example of why pistols are so expensive.

KMBs have twice the range and are 5pts a model
KMS are the pistol version and are 10pts a model.

Why? because you get the +1 attack in CC. thats the only reason I can think they would increase the cost.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
I wouldn't mind that upgrade that much, but as I said, every upgrade offered so far and every example has been imperial, does that mean that my KMS should cost 5pts instead of 10?

BTW as an example of why pistols are so expensive.

KMBs have twice the range and are 5pts a model
KMS are the pistol version and are 10pts a model.

Why? because you get the +1 attack in CC. thats the only reason I can think they would increase the cost.

Well, that's insane pricing.

....That's one of the dumbest things I've ever read.

The part about Kustom Mega Blastas costing half as much as the Pistol version, that is.

I mean, seriously? Why would a pistol- that due to its shorter range would be fired far less often- be twice as expensive as a proper gun?!

You don't buy pistols because you want bonus attacks- the free pistol is just as good for that purpose. You buy pistols so you can get that little extra bit of shooting in before you charge stuff.

So I would absolutely say that Kustom Mega-Sluggas should cost only 5 points if the KMB costs that. Even considering that Plasma Pistols currently cost 15 (way too much) and should cost 10, Orks have such terrible BS and so little opportunity to leverage a good pistol like that, that it's mostly fine, IMO.

About where I think it would sit best is ~7 points for either a KMS or a KMB- the pistol variant trades range for non-shooting utility, and vice versa in respect to the Blasta variation. Considering that both are single-shot weapons with respective tradeoffs, it seems perfectly fair for them to cost the same amount.

7 points is also a little less than half a current Plasma Pistol, and still less than a (properly costed) 10 point Plasma Pistol, and would also reflect the lower capability of an Ork to actually kill things in shooting without massive shot volume.

its a moot point anyway, the only KMB in my army is on my Morkanaut, I try not to bring anything that has the "gets hot" special rule with my orks. To many chances to F*ck my day up with those silly weapons, plus when you look at the stats, Orks have a 2/6th chance of hitting and a 1/6th chance of blowing themselves up with a "Gets Hot" weapon.


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ohh side note; KMKs are not silly they are awesome and I love them

Cypher can use his pistols profile in CC and I love him for that! 2 plasma shots and 2 bolt pistol shots WS 10 something to think about

WS7 iirc