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Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/10 21:15:57


Post by: Manchu


"It is not 1933. But could it be 1929?"

This is a long, difficult, and provocative essay -- and as an American, I found it to be totally shocking. I grew up watching Schindler's List, reading Elie Wiesel, visiting Holocaust museums ... "NEVER AGAIN" was effectively just as important to my moral education in public school as well as in private life as the Bill of Rights. I am probably not the only American who sometimes naively assumes Europe is pretty much like the United States ... when in reality, European countries may have more in common in some ways with (just for example) Japan. What I mean is, despite the significant prejudices that characterize American society, we do have a way of absorbing immigrants that doesn't seem possible for European nations. As Mr. Goldberg, the author of the essay, says in the video: The concept of a Moroccan-American makes immediate sense. But what is a German Turk?

The revitalization of anti-Semitism in Europe and its relationship to Muslim communities also living in Europe is therefore ... well, shocking to be honest to me as an American who was brought up on the moral truth summed up in that phrase "NEVER AGAIN." I really have trouble grasping that the question of whether the Jews should leave Europe can be a serious topic of discussion in 2015. But Mr. Goldberg makes a pretty convincing case. Here's his personal conclusion:
I am predisposed to believe that there is no great future for the Jews in Europe, because evidence to support this belief is accumulating so quickly. But I am also predisposed to think this because I am an American Jew—which is to say, a person who exists because his ancestors made a run for it when they could.
This essay may take folks a couple of sittings to get through but it really is worth reading if you get a chance:
Spoiler:
I. The Scourge of Our Time

The French philosopher Alain Finkielkraut, the son of Holocaust survivors, is an accomplished, even gifted, pessimist. To his disciples, he is a Jewish Zola, accusing France’s bien-pensant intellectual class of complicity in its own suicide. To his foes, he is a reactionary whose nostalgia for a fairy-tale French past is induced by an irrational fear of Muslims. Finkielkraut’s cast of mind is generally dark, but when we met in Paris in early January, two days after the Charlie Hebdo massacre, he was positively grim.

“My French identity is reinforced by the very large number of people who openly declare, often now with violence, their hostility to French values and culture,” he said. “I live in a strange place. There is so much guilt and so much worry.” We were seated at a table in his apartment, near the Luxembourg Gardens. I had come to discuss with him the precarious future of French Jewry, but, as the hunt for the Charlie Hebdo killers seemed to be reaching its conclusion, we had become fixated on the television.


Finkielkraut sees himself as an alienated man of the left. He says he loathes both radical Islamism and its most ferocious French critic, Marine Le Pen, the leader of France’s extreme right-wing—and once openly anti-Semitic—National Front party. But he has lately come to find radical Islamism to be a more immediate, even existential, threat to France than the National Front. “I don’t trust Le Pen. I think there is real violence in her,” he told me. “But she is so successful because there actually is a problem of Islam in France, and until now she has been the only one to dare say it.”

Suddenly, there was news: a kosher supermarket in Porte de Vincennes, in eastern Paris, had come under attack. “Of course,” Finkielkraut said. “The Jews.” Even before anti-Semitic riots broke out in France last summer, Finkielkraut had become preoccupied with the well-being of France’s Jews.

We knew nothing about this new attack—except that we already knew everything. “People don’t defend the Jews as we expected to be defended,” he said. “It would be easier for the left to defend the Jews if the attackers were white and rightists.”

I asked him a very old Jewish question: Do you have a bag packed?

“We should not leave,” he said, “but maybe for our children or grandchildren there will be no choice.”

Reports suggested that a number of people were dead at the market. I said goodbye, and took the Métro to Porte de Vincennes. Stations near the market were closed, so I walked through neighborhoods crowded with police. Sirens echoed through the streets. Teenagers gathered by the barricades, taking selfies. No one had much information. One young man, however, said of the victims, “It’s just the Feuj.” Feuj, an inversion of Juif—“Jew”—is often used as a slur.

I located an acquaintance, a man who volunteers with the Jewish Community Security Service, a national organization founded after a synagogue bombing in 1980, to protect Jewish institutions from anti-Semitic attack. “Supermarkets now,” he said bleakly. We made our way closer to the forward police line, and heard volleys of gunfire. The police had raided the market; the suspect, Amedy Coulibaly, we soon heard, was dead. So were four Jews he had murdered. They had been shopping for the Sabbath when he entered the market and started shooting.

France’s 475,000 Jews represent less than 1 percent of the country’s population. Yet last year, according to the French Interior Ministry, 51 percent of all racist attacks targeted Jews. The statistics in other countries, including Great Britain, are similarly dismal. In 2014, Jews in Europe were murdered, raped, beaten, stalked, chased, harassed, spat on, and insulted for being Jewish. Sale Juif—“dirty Jew”—rang in the streets, as did “Death to the Jews,” and “Jews to the gas.”

The epithet dirty Jew, Zola wrote in “J’Accuse …!,” was the “scourge of our time.” “J’Accuse …!” was published in 1898.

TThe resurgence of anti-Semitism in Europe is not—or should not be—a surprise. One of the least surprising phenomena in the history of civilization, in fact, is the persistence of anti-Semitism in Europe, which has been the wellspring of Judeophobia for 1,000 years. The Church itself functioned as the centrifuge of anti-Semitism from the time it rebelled against its mother religion until the middle of the 20th century. As Jonathan Sacks, the former chief rabbi of Great Britain, has observed, Europe has added to the global lexicon of bigotry such terms as Inquisition, blood libel, auto‑da‑fé, ghetto, pogrom, and Holocaust. Europe has blamed the Jews for an encyclopedia of sins. The Church blamed the Jews for killing Jesus; Voltaire blamed the Jews for inventing Christianity. In the febrile minds of anti-Semites, Jews were usurers and well-poisoners and spreaders of disease. Jews were the creators of both communism and capitalism; they were clannish but also cosmopolitan; cowardly and warmongering; self-righteous moralists and defilers of culture. Ideologues and demagogues of many permutations have understood the Jews to be a singularly malevolent force standing between the world and its perfection.

Despite this history of sorrow, Jews spent long periods living unmolested in Europe. And even amid the expulsions and persecutions and pogroms, Jewish culture prospered. Rabbis and sages produced texts and wrote liturgical poems that are still used today. Emancipation and enlightenment opened the broader culture to Jews, who came to prominence in politics, philosophy, the arts, and science—Chagall and Kafka, Einstein and Freud, Lévi-Strauss and Durkheim. An entire civilization flourished in Yiddish.


Hitler destroyed most everything. But the story Europeans tell themselves—or told themselves, until the proof became too obvious to ignore—is that Judenhass, the hatred of Jews, ended when Berlin fell 70 years ago.

Events of the past 15 years suggest otherwise.

We are witnessing today the denouement of an unusual epoch in European life, the age of the post-Holocaust Jewish dispensation.

When the survivors of the Shoah emerged from the camps, and from hiding places in cities and forests across Europe, they were met on occasion by pogroms. (In Poland, for instance, some Christians were unhappy to see their former Jewish neighbors return home, and so arranged their deaths.) But over time, Europe managed to absorb the small number of Jewish survivors who chose to remain. A Jewish community even grew in West Germany. At the same time, the countries of Western Europe embraced the cause of the young and besieged state of Israel.

The Shoah served for a while as a sort of inoculation against the return of overt Jew-hatred—but the effects of the inoculation, it is becoming clear, are wearing off. What was once impermissible is again imaginable. Memories of 6 million Jewish dead fade, and guilt becomes burdensome. (In The Eternal Anti-Semite, the writer Henryk Broder popularized the notion that “the Germans will never forgive the Jews for Auschwitz.”) Israel is coming to be understood not as a small country in a difficult spot whose leaders, especially lately, have (in my opinion) been making shortsighted and potentially disastrous decisions, but as a source of cosmological evil—the Jew of nations.

An argument made with increasing frequency—motivated, perhaps, by some perverse impulse toward psychological displacement—calls Israel the spiritual and political heir of the Third Reich, rendering the Jews as Nazis. (Some in Europe and the Middle East take this line of thought to an even more extreme conclusion: “Those who condemn Hitler day and night have surpassed Hitler in barbarism,” the president of Turkey, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, said last year of Israel.)

The previously canonical strain of European anti-Semitism, the fascist variant, still flourishes in places. In Hungary, a leader of the right-wing Jobbik party called on the government—a government that has come under criticism for whitewashing the history of Hungary’s collaboration with the Nazis—to draw up a list of all the Jews in the country who might pose a “national-security risk.” In Greece, a recent survey found that 69 percent of adults hold anti-Semitic views, and the fascists of the country’s Golden Dawn party are open in their Jew-hatred.

But what makes this new era of anti-Semitic violence in Europe different from previous ones is that traditional Western patterns of anti-Semitic thought have now merged with a potent strain of Muslim Judeophobia. Violence against Jews in Western Europe today, according to those who track it, appears to come mainly from Muslims, who in France, the epicenter of Europe’s Jewish crisis, outnumber Jews 10 to 1.

That the chief propagators of contemporary European anti-Semitism may be found in the Continent’s large and disenfranchised Muslim immigrant communities—communities that are themselves harassed and assaulted by hooligans associated with Europe’s surging right—is flummoxing to, among others, Europe’s elites. Muslims in Europe are in many ways a powerless minority. The failure of Europe to integrate Muslim immigrants has contributed to their exploitation by anti-Semitic propagandists and by recruiters for such radical projects as the Islamic State, or ISIS.

Yet the new anti-Semitism flourishing in corners of the European Muslim community would be impoverished without the incorporation of European fascist tropes. Dieudonné M’bala M’bala, a comedian of French Cameroonian descent who specializes in Holocaust revisionism and gas-chamber humor, is the inventor of the quenelle, widely understood as an inverted Nazi salute. His followers have taken to photographing themselves making the quenelle in front of synagogues, Holocaust memorials, and sites of past anti-Jewish terrorist attacks. Dieudonné has built an ideological partnership with Alain Soral, the anti-Jewish conspiracy theorist and 9/11 “truther” who was for several years a member of the National Front’s central committee. Soral was photographed not long ago making the quenelle in front of Berlin’s Holocaust memorial.

The union of Middle Eastern and European forms of anti-Semitic expression has led to bizarre moments. Dave Rich, an official of the Community Security Trust, a Jewish organization that monitors anti-Semitism in the United Kingdom, wrote recently: “Those British Muslims who verbally abuse British Jews on the street are more likely to shout ‘Heil Hitler’ than ‘Allahu akbar’ when they do so. This is despite the fact that their parents and grandparents were probably chased through the very same streets by gangs of neo-Nazi skinheads shouting similar slogans.”

The marriage of anti-Semitic narratives was consummated in January of last year, during a so-called Day of Rage march in Paris that was organized to protest the leadership of the French president, François Hollande. The rally drew roughly 17,000 people, mostly far-rightists but also many French Muslims.

“On one side of this march, you had neonationalist and reactionary Catholics, who had strongly and violently opposed gay marriage, and on the other side young people from the banlieues [suburbs], supporters of Dieudonné, often from African and North African background, whose beliefs are based in opposition to the ‘system’ and on victimhood competition,” Simone Rodan-Benzaquen, the Paris director of the American Jewish Committee, told me. “What unites them is their hatred of Jews.” That day, on the streets of Paris, the anti-Hollande message was overtaken by another chanted slogan: “Juif, la France n’est pas à toi”—“Jew, France is not for you.”

Howard Jacobson, the Man Booker Prize–winning writer whose latest novel, J, is a study of a future genocide in an unnamed but very English-seeming country of an unnamed people who very much resemble the Jews, told me the book emerged from an inchoate but ever-present sense of anxiety. “I felt as if I was writing out of dread,” he said when we met recently near his home in London.

“It will never go away, this hatred of Jews … and the proof of this is that barely 50 years after the Holocaust, the desire for Jewish bloodletting isn’t over,” he said. “Couldn’t they have given us a bit longer? Give us 100 years and we’ll return to it.”

“I know this is a dangerous thing to say … but the Holocaust didn’t satisfy.”

I’ve spent much of the past year traveling across Europe, in search of an answer to a simple, but pressing, question: Is it time for the Jews to leave? Europe is a Jewish museum and a Jewish graveyard, but after the war it became, remarkably—and despite Hitler’s best efforts—home once again to living, breathing Jewish communities. Is it still a place for Jews who want to live uncamouflaged Jewish lives?

II. “Don’t Go to the Jew”

On the morning of March 19, 2012, a man named Mohamed Merah, a French citizen of Algerian descent, parked his motorbike in front of the entrance of a Jewish school in Toulouse called Ozar Hatorah, which is in a placid residential neighborhood not far from the city center. Merah, who had been radicalized in a French prison and trained in an al-Qaeda camp in Pakistan, dismounted and almost immediately began firing a 9 mm pistol at students and the parents who were dropping them off. He killed a 30-year-old rabbi and his two sons, who were 3 and 6 years old. Merah then walked into the schoolyard, shooting at students. He chased down an 8-year-old girl named Myriam Monsonego, catching her by the hair. Merah held her down and placed his 9 mm to her head, but the weapon jammed. He switched to another handgun, pressed it against her head, and fired. The sound of shooting had brought the school’s principal to the school yard. Yaacov Monsonego arrived to see Merah execute his daughter.

Merah escaped on his motorbike. He was later shot and killed by police. French authorities said he was also responsible for the earlier killings of three French soldiers of Muslim background. In the theology of radical French Islamism, Muslims who cooperate with the state are as much an enemy as Jewish children.

Ozar Hatorah, which is today known as Ohr Hatorah, is surrounded by a high wall, topped in places by barbed wire. I visited the school in October with Nicole Yardéni, the Toulouse representative of the national Jewish council. Yardéni wanted me to meet a physician named Charles Bensemhoun, who would explain, she said, the collapsing relationship between Toulouse’s 18,000 or so Jews and its much larger Muslim population.

Bensemhoun, who is in his mid-50s, is Sephardic, born in Morocco. Three-quarters of France’s Jews are Sephardim, chased from Algeria, Morocco, and Tunisia in the 1950s and ’60s.

Many of Bensemhoun’s patients are North African Muslims. “These are people like me, who were born there,” he told me outside the school’s synagogue. “We speak the same language, literally”—he says he and his patients move easily between Arabic and French—“and we understand each other in very deep ways. They’re very comfortable with me as their doctor.” He went on, “But it’s changed in recent years. Now their children are telling them, ‘Don’t go to the Jew,’ ‘You can’t trust the Jew.’ They’ve become radicalized. It’s upsetting. The new generation is anti-Semitic in a way that we haven’t experienced.”

Are these patients listening to their children? “Yes,” he said. “In some cases, yes.”

I asked him whether he thought he had a future in Toulouse. He smiled. “Does any Jew have a future in Toulouse?” The Jewish community is shrinking, Yardéni said. Some families are moving to Paris. Others are moving to Israel.

The Merah attack was the gravest in the modern Jewish history of Toulouse (the slaughter of the city’s Jews by Crusaders in 1320 is presumed to have been bloodier). But the list of less tragic, though still damaging, attacks is long. Last July, Molotov cocktails were thrown at a Jewish cultural center; street harassment of Jews walking to and from school and synagogue is common. Early last year, Yardéni and other Jews were banned from a left-wing demonstration called to protest homophobia and—of all things—anti-Semitism, because they were ruled to be Zionists. The local police record dozens of anti-Jewish hate crimes each year. “There is a point where it becomes difficult to stay,” Bensemhoun said.

Monsonego, the school principal who saw his daughter murdered, came out of the synagogue. He is a small, slight man with a graying beard and a hesitant gait. We spoke privately for a couple of minutes. I found him in some ways unfathomable. I don’t understand how a father maintains his sanity after witnessing what he witnessed—but his daughter’s murder has not caused him to lose faith in God or in his work.

Later, I asked Yardéni why the Monsonego family has remained in Toulouse. She herself is one of the city’s most visible Jewish leaders, and receives many veiled death threats. “If the leaders of the community run away, what will happen to the rest of the people?” she said.

III. “Je Suis Juif”

Like many of the banlieues that ring Paris, Montreuil bears no socioeconomic or aesthetic resemblance to the Paris of popular imagination. The architecture is rude, the parks are unkempt, and the people, many of them immigrants from North Africa, are estranged from la belle France. On the way to Montreuil, in the Métro, I passed defaced posters of the musician Lou Reed. Stars of David had been drawn on his nose. Other graffiti was less ambiguous: Nique les Juifs—“feth the Jews.”

I was visiting a vocational high school, the Daniel Mayer School. The school is associated with ORT, which is a Russian acronym for the Society for Trades and Agricultural Labor. ORT was founded in 1880 to educate the destitute Jews of the Pale of Settlement, the vast ghetto created by czarist Russia for its Jewish subjects. In France, ORT schools educated a generation of Polish and Russian survivors of the Holocaust; today, they primarily educate the children of North African Jews.

The Mayer School is housed in a seven-story building in Montreuil, near the Robespierre Métro station. The principal, Isaac Touitou, gathered a group of students—mainly ages 17 and 18—and teachers in the library to talk with me. These were mostly the children of striving working-class parents; the school, which has a reputation for rigor, is a ladder to the middle class. Its students graduate as opticians, dental technicians, accountants, computer programmers. The school also functions as a haven for young Jews living in a dangerous environment.

“Once we get here we’re safe,” one of the students told me. “Getting here from home is the hard part.” Many of the students live in distant and equally perilous suburbs, including Sarcelles, the site of anti-Jewish riots this past summer; and Créteil, where Jews have suffered beatings and rapes by anti-Semitic gangs.

Each of the 10 students had a story to tell about brutality. “I was in a public school in Créteil but I had to leave. People would yell at me in the halls: ‘Dirty Jew.’ ‘fething Jew.’ ‘I want to kill all of you,’ ” a student named Paola said. “Two years ago they attacked my brother. They would always scream, ‘Go back to your country.’ They meant Israel.”

The ORT school had itself been the target of harassment. Touitou described a recent incident in which about 20 or so students from a neighboring public school had gathered in front of the building and made the quenelle.

The students I talked with in the library generally agreed that their future lay outside of France. “A lot of the Muslims hate us here,” a student named Alexandre said. His parents had already moved to Israel. They were two of the roughly 7,000 French Jews who left for Israel in 2014. Alexandre would be joining them after graduation.

Zionism, which at its essence is a critique of Europe—Theodor Herzl, its founder, interpreted the Dreyfus affair in France and the pogroms in Russia as invitations to seek an alternative Jewish future outside of Europe—is perpetually resuscitated by anti-Semitism. Paola said, “Those kids told me to go to Israel, so that’s what I’m doing.” Others were contemplating the possibility of life in Quebec, and some dreamt of America.

The students talked about ways in which Jews concealed their identity. I’d heard that it had already become fairly common practice in some of the apartment blocks in the banlieues for Jews to remove the mezuzot from their doors. A mezuzah is a piece of parchment that contains Bible verses and that is placed in a case and then affixed to a doorpost. In some suburbs, mezuzot had become pointers for those in search of Jews to harm.

But the students told me something new. “Jewish people are telling other Jews to take down their mezuzot,” one of the students said. “People are being pressured to hide that they are Jewish. The pressure can be very intense.” The impetus for this new campaign seems to have been an incident that occurred in early December, in which a group of robbers broke into an apartment in Créteil. They told the occupants that they knew they were Jewish, and therefore wealthy, and then they raped a 19-year-old woman in the apartment.

“Everyone is saying ‘Je suis Charlie’ today,” Wendy, another of the students, said, in reference to the popular slogan of support for the slain Charlie Hebdo cartoonists. “But this has been happening to the Jews for years and no one cares.”

“It would be nice if someone would say ‘Je suis Juif,’ ” Sandy, another student, said.

Everyone agreed that more attacks were inevitable. “Next week or next month, no one knows,” David Attias, a teacher at the school, said. “But it’s coming. Everyone knows it.”

The next attack came that afternoon. I met with the students on the morning of January 9. Several hours later came the massacre at the kosher supermarket, about a mile away. One of the dead was a graduate of another ORT school.

IV. Fear in Sweden

The most persecuted Jew in Europe is almost certainly Shneur Kesselman, the rabbi of Malmö, a city in southern Sweden. He was dispatched there by the Brooklyn-based Chabad Hasidic movement.

Malmö, which sits across the Øresund from Copenhagen, has a population of roughly 300,000. This includes a large number, perhaps 50,000 or so, of Muslim immigrants. The Jewish community is much smaller—by some estimates, there are fewer than 1,000 Jews; the population has dropped by half in recent years. Malmö’s leadership has at times been at odds with Malmö’s Jews. A former mayor said that the city accepts “neither Zionism nor anti-Semitism”—a statement that was taken as hostile by Jewish Swedes supportive of Israel’s existence.

Acts of anti-Jewish harassment and vandalism are common in Malmö, and Kesselman is a main target, because he is the only Jew there who still dresses in an identifiably Jewish manner—kippah, black hat, black coat, and long beard. Jewish teenagers in Malmö told me that wearing a Star of David necklace can incite a beating. Kesselman estimates that he has been the target of roughly 150 anti-Semitic attacks in his 10 years in the city, mainly verbal, but also physical. “There is a lot of cursing at me, and people sometimes throw bottles at me from their cars. Someone backed up their car in order to hit me,” he said when I met with him. Occasionally, he said, people spit on him.

Donors recently provided him a car of his own, so he would not have to walk from his apartment to Malmö’s sole synagogue, except on the Sabbath, when Jewish law forbids driving. I attended services at the synagogue with Kesselman one Friday night in January. The synagogue is a large, ornate, Moorish-style building that was constructed in 1903. Seventeen others attended the service, most of them men in their 60s. There was no police presence around the synagogue—Scandinavian governments have been far more lackadaisical about Jewish security than France’s—but the Jewish community has its own security guards. Before I was allowed to enter, a security officer, a Swedish Jew—playing a role similar to that of Dan Uzan, the Danish Jew killed in a mid-February attack on a synagogue in Copenhagen—quizzed me at length about my identity, asking me a series of idiosyncratic questions designed to test whether I was, in fact, Jewish. (“What is the address of Chabad headquarters in Brooklyn?” he said. Luckily, I had trained my whole life for this moment.)

After services, I walked with Kesselman and a group of other worshippers through the dark city center. They set an extraordinarily fast pace. I fell in step with a young woman who was born and raised in Malmö but now lives in Israel. She was visiting her father, trying to convince him to leave. “He’s stubborn,” she said. “I worry about him here.” I noted that Israel is not pristinely safe. “It’s different. We protect ourselves there.”

Kesselman and his wife, the parents of four young children, avoid venturing out in public as a couple, for fear of being targeted together. Earlier, I had asked Kesselman why he has stayed in Malmö. Because Malmö’s remaining Jews would have no rabbi if he were to go, he said. Also, many Chabad rabbis resist the urge to leave even dangerous areas, in order to honor the sacrifice of their brethren: in 2008, a Chabad representative and his wife, along with four other Jews, were murdered (after reportedly being tortured) by Pakistani jihadists during the lengthy siege of Mumbai. I asked Kesselman whether he was scared to stay in Malmö. “Yes, of course I’m scared,” he said.

I spent one afternoon interviewing people in the main shopping mall of the Rosengård district, which is predominantly home to immigrants. Several of the Muslims I interviewed expressed benign feelings toward Jews. They knew of Malmö’s reputation for anti-Semitism, and regretted it. A couple of others expressed objections to Israel’s existence, but absolved “the Jews” of collective responsibility. But more common was conflation, and exaggeration. I asked several people to tell me where they find information about Jews and Israel. Television stations such as Al Jazeera and the Hezbollah station, Al‑Manar, were cited, as was the preaching of Scandinavian imams. One Danish imam, Abu Bilal Ismail, became famous last year for urging worshippers in a Berlin mosque to kill Jews: “Count them and kill them to the very last one. Don’t spare a single one of them.” He later explained to a Copenhagen newspaper that he “never meant all Jews.”

One man, an Iraqi refugee, told me, “The Jews have too much power everywhere.” Another man, of Sudanese background, explained that the Koran itself warns Muslims to fear double-crossing by Jews. “They killed the prophets and tried to poison the Prophet Muhammad,” he said. I did not hear critiques of Israel’s occupation policies. I heard, instead, complaints about the Jews’ baleful influence on the world.

V. The Persecution of Anne Frank

Many institutions are devoted to memorializing the Shoah, but very few are as iconic as the Anne Frank House, in Amsterdam. Each year, more than 1 million visitors—many of them Dutch students—make their way up narrow flights of stairs to the perfectly preserved “secret annex” where Anne Frank and her family hid until they were betrayed.

The Anne Frank House, which is now encased inside a multimedia museum, is a significant operation, employing 112 people. I went one morning to talk with its head of education, Norbert Hinterleitner, about how the Jewish crisis in Europe is shaping the house’s pedagogical mission. There has always been tension in the public portrayal of Anne Frank. The specifically Jewish qualities of her life have often been marginalized in literature, onstage, and in film, replaced with a more universal and, to some, accessible message.

I began the interview with a faux pas. A very large number of curators, guides, and directors in European Jewish museums, in my experience, are not Jewish. This is due in part to the general lack of Jews, and to the very large number of museums—Europe is a vast archipelago of Jewish museums. And yet somehow I made the assumption that Hinterleitner was Jewish.

“I’m Austrian, actually.” He didn’t know how many employees at the museum were Jewish, but, he said, “there are some people who have Jewish lineage.” He then added, in what I took to be an effort to explain my initial confusion, “Some people here think I’m Jewish, because I’m dark and I have a big nose.”

The Anne Frank House has never had a Jewish director (though Hinterleitner pointed out that at least two members of the board must have a “Jewish background”), and I would learn later that it is widely understood in Amsterdam’s Jewish community that Jews should not bother applying for the job. Hinterleitner said that the museum addresses anti-Semitism in the context of larger societal ills, but also that it recently issued a strong press statement condemning anti-Semitic acts in the Netherlands and elsewhere. He said the museum has made an intensive study of anti-Semitism in the Netherlands, and has learned that most verbal expressions of anti-Semitism in secondary schools come from boys and are related to soccer.

The Anne Frank House is merely a simulacrum of a Jewish institution in part because, as its head of communications told me, Anne’s father said that her diary “wasn’t about being Jewish,” but also, Hinterleitner suggested, because a museum devoted too obsessively to the details of a particular genocide might not draw visitors in sufficient numbers. “We want people to be interested in this issue, people from all walks of life. So we talk about the universal components of Anne Frank’s story as well. Our work is about tolerance and understanding.”

When I left, two policemen were patrolling the narrow street outside the museum. A temporary surveillance post had been erected just across from the entrance. I asked one of the officers whether this level of security was normal. He said the government had increased security around the museum last spring, shortly after a massacre at another Jewish site: On May 24, four people were murdered at the Jewish Museum of Belgium, in Brussels, allegedly by a French Muslim of jihadist bent named Mehdi Nemmouche. Two Israeli tourists, a French volunteer, and a Belgian employee of Muslim and Jewish descent were killed. Nemmouche had recently returned to Europe after a term with ISIS in Syria, where, according to a former French hostage of ISIS, his specialty was torturing prisoners.

“If you have an anti-Semitic attack on Anne Frank’s house, it won’t be the first,” I said to one of the police officers. We have never had an attack, he said.

Not on his watch. But it is fair to count the August 4, 1944, Gestapo raid on the house, which resulted in the arrest of the Frank family, as an anti-Semitic act. Anne died of typhus at the Bergen-Belsen concentration camp, roughly one month before it was liberated by British forces.

Anne Frank has become an obsession of modern anti-Semites. Her story—universally known, and deeply affecting—is a threat to the mission of the Holocaust-denial movement, and her youth and innocence challenge those who argue that Jews are innately perfidious. In Rome last summer, the slogan “Anne Frank is a liar” was spray-painted on walls in the former Jewish ghetto. In Lebanon, Hezbollah, the radical Shia group, has fought to keep her diary out of schools. In 2006, the Arab European League posted on its Web site a cartoon—this occurred during an earlier round of Europe’s endless, debilitating blasphemy wars—that featured a shirtless, postcoital Hitler in bed with a frightened dark-haired girl. “Write this one in your diary, Anne,” Hitler says.

The police outside the Anne Frank House are not protecting it because it is an international symbol of tolerance and understanding. There are many international symbols of understanding scattered across Europe that are not first-tier targets of jihadist extremists. The police are guarding the Anne Frank House because it is, in fact, associated with Jews, and Jews are under sustained attack in Europe.

VI. Hitler Is Dead

In January, at a ceremony marking the 70th anniversary of the liberation of the Auschwitz death camp, the American businessman Ronald Lauder, who serves as the president of the World Jewish Congress, said acidly of Europe, “It looks more like 1933 than 2015.” He mentioned Jewish children afraid to wear a kippah on the streets of Paris, Budapest, and London; the sacking of Jewish stores; and attacks on synagogues; and he suggested that a slow-motion exodus from Europe was already under way.

Things have gone terribly wrong for the Jews of Europe lately, but comparing 2015 to 1933, the year Hitler came to power, is irresponsible. As serious as matters have become for European Jews today, conditions are different from 80 years ago, in at least two profound ways.

The first is that Israel exists, and has as its reason for being the ingathering of dispersed Jews. A tragedy of Zionism, the political movement to create a state for the Jews in their ancestral homeland, is that it succeeded too late. If Israel had come into being in 1938, rather than in 1948, an untold but presumably very large number of European Jews who were denied refuge by the civilized nations, including the United States, would have been saved from slaughter. Today, of course, the Jews of Toulouse and Malmö understand that Israel will take them without question, and many thousands of European Jews—mainly, though not exclusively, French—have moved to Israel in recent years.

The second way—and this is a historical astonishment—is that in 1933, the new leader of Germany announced himself as the foremost enemy of Jewish existence; today, Germany’s leader is among the world’s chief defenders of Jews. Chancellor Angela Merkel has made the defense of Jews a principle of the nation: “Germany’s support for Israel’s security is part of our national ethos, our raison d’être,” she said in 2013. At a rally against anti-Semitism held last September at the Brandenburg Gate, in Berlin, Merkel said: “Anyone who hits someone wearing a skullcap is hitting us all. Anyone who damages a Jewish gravestone is disgracing our culture. Anyone who attacks a synagogue is attacking the foundations of our free society.”

In France, Manuel Valls, the Socialist prime minister, is, if anything, an even more ardent defender of Europe’s Jews. He argues that the French idea itself depends on the crushing of anti-Semitism.

“The choice was made by the French Revolution in 1789 to recognize Jews as full citizens,” he told me when I met him late last year in Paris. “To understand what the idea of the republic is about, you have to understand the central role played by the emancipation of the Jews. It is a founding principle.”

In 1980, shortly after the bombing of the Rue Copernic synagogue, in Paris, which took the lives of four people, Raymond Barre, who was then the French prime minister, described the attack as one “that sought to target Jews who were in this synagogue and that struck innocent Frenchmen who were crossing Rue Copernic.”

France’s Jews were wounded by Barre’s statement. To be excluded from the community of “innocent Frenchmen” by a prime minister is not something readily forgotten. Roger Cukierman, the head of France’s national Jewish council, told me that French Jews are grateful that Valls has been so willing to speak in their defense.

Valls, whose father is Spanish, framed the threat of a Jewish exodus this way: “If 100,000 French people of Spanish origin were to leave, I would never say that France is not France anymore. But if 100,000 Jews leave, France will no longer be France. The French Republic will be judged a failure.”

Valls is deliberate and—unusual for a French politician of the left—blunt in identifying the main culprits in the proliferation of anti-Jewish violence and harassment: Islamist ideologues whose anti-Semitic and anti-Western calumnies have penetrated the banlieues. But he goes further: France’s “new anti-Semitism” is also the product of what he understands to be a malicious sleight of hand on the part of Israel’s enemies to repackage anti-Semitism as anti-Zionism.

“It is legitimate to criticize the policies of Israel,” Valls said. “This criticism exists in Israel itself. But this is not what we are talking about in France. This is radical criticism of the very existence of Israel, which is anti-Semitic. There is an incontestable link between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism. Behind anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism.”

Frequently, Valls said, anti-Zionists let the mask slip. It is impossible, he said, to ascribe the attacks on synagogues—at least eight were targeted in France last summer—to anger over Israel’s Gaza policy. The demonstrators who chanted “Hamas, Hamas, Jews to the gas” at rallies in Germany last year clearly have more on their minds than Israel’s West Bank settlement policy—but evidently not everyone in authority believes that attacks on synagogues are axiomatically anti-Semitic: in early February, a German court ruled that the firebombing of a synagogue in the city of Wuppertal last year was motivated not by anti-Semitism but by a desire to bring “attention to the Gaza conflict.”

Valls and Merkel think more clearly about the implications of Jewish persecution than many others in Europe. So too does David Cameron, the prime minister of the United Kingdom. When I met with Cameron in January, on his most recent visit to Washington, D.C., he expressed, with something close to Valls’s passion, a fear for the future of Britain’s Jewish minority. “The Jewish community in Britain has been there for centuries and has made an extraordinary contribution to our country,” he said. “I would be heartbroken if I ever thought that people in the Jewish community thought that Britain was no longer a safe place for them.”

According to the Community Security Trust, 2014 saw the highest number of anti-Semitic incidents in the United Kingdom, which is home to 300,000 Jews, since the organization began its monitoring efforts, in 1984: it recorded 1,168 anti-Semitic incidents. This is more than double the number of incidents in 2013, and exceeds the previous record, from 2009, of 931 incidents. In a recent survey conducted on behalf of the Campaign Against Anti-Semitism, a quarter of British Jews said they had considered leaving the country; more than half of those surveyed said they fear that Jews have no future in Great Britain.

Cameron condemned demonstrators who took out their frustrations with Israel on Europe’s Jews. I asked him whether there existed in his mind a bright line that separates anti-Zionism from anti-Semitism. He answered: “I think it is unfair and wrong to lay at the door of Jewish communities of Europe policies pursued by the government of Israel that people might not agree with—just completely wrong.”

He went on to say: “As well as the new threat of extremist Islamism, there has been an insidious, creeping attempt to delegitimize the state of Israel, which spills over often into anti-Semitism. We have to be very clear about the fact that there is a dangerous line that people keep crossing over. This is a state, a democracy that is recognized by the UN, and I don’t think we should be tolerant of this effort at delegitimization. The people who are trying to make the line fuzzy are the delegitimizers.”

The fight against anti-Semitism led by Merkel, Valls, and Cameron appears to be heartfelt. The question is, will it work? After the January massacres in Paris, the French government deployed several thousand soldiers to protect Jewish institutions, but it cannot assign soldiers to protect every Jew walking to and from the Métro. The governments of Europe are having a terrible time in their struggle against the manifestations of radical Islamist ideology. And the general publics of these countries do not seem nearly as engaged in the issue as their leaders. The Berlin rally last fall against anti-Semitism that featured Angela Merkel drew a paltry 5,000 people, most of whom were Jews. It is a historical truism that, as Manuel Valls told me, “what begins with Jews doesn’t end with Jews.” But this notion has not penetrated public opinion.

Nevertheless, comparisons to 1933 remain overripe.

“It’s not 1933 all over again, because it’s not generally acceptable to try to mobilize political power by making explicitly anti-Semitic arguments,” David Nirenberg, a scholar of anti-Semitism at the University of Chicago, told me. “We’re not at a moment when you can make a mass democratic argument about Jews as aliens. The danger here, and the reason French Jews, for instance, fear not having Manuel Valls in office forever, is that if political power isn’t willing to protect European Jews against minority movements that legitimate themselves through anti-Zionist discourse, no one is going to protect them.”

VII. The Coffin or the Suitcase

It is not 1933. But could it be 1929? Could Europe’s economic stagnation combine with its inability to assimilate and enfranchise growing populations of increasingly angry Muslims in such a way as to clear a path for volatile right-wing populism?

A few weeks after the January massacres, I met with a group of aggrieved Jews in a café near the main synagogue in Sarcelles, the suburb that was the center of last summer’s anti-Jewish riots. French troops in combat gear patrolled the street. The synagogue is now also used as a base of operations for the more than 40 soldiers who have been assigned to protect the town’s Jewish institutions.

“We’re very glad for the soldiers,” one of the men, who asked me to identify him only as Chaim, said. “But soldiers in the synagogues means that there is no life here, only danger. This is why I’m leaving.” It is, he said, using an expression common during the Algerian civil war, a choice between le cercueil ou la valise—“the coffin or the suitcase.”

But another man, who asked to be called Marcel, responded that it would be cowardly to flee for Israel at the first appearance of Molotov cocktails. “Running, running, running,” he said. “That’s the Jewish way.” He said his parents had arrived in Sarcelles from Tunisia in 1967, driven out by anti-Jewish rioters who were putatively distressed by Israel’s victory in the Six-Day War. “We ran from Tunisia. We’re not running from here.”

“But no one wants us here,” Chaim said. “They’ll attack us again as soon as the soldiers go.”

I said that I didn’t think Manuel Valls was going to remove the soldiers anytime soon.

Marcel laughed. “I don’t count on the Socialists. I would count on the National Front before I count on the Socialists.”

It is disquieting, but no longer unusual, to hear Jews of North African descent express affinity for the National Front. The popularity of the party’s leader, Marine Le Pen, across non-Jewish (and non-Muslim) France is well documented; according to a recent poll, she is the leading presidential candidate for 2017.

The January massacres created a moment for the anti-immigrant Le Pen; the refusal by the French government to invite her to participate in the giant unity march following the attacks only inspired more sympathy for her message, which is a simple one: the rise of Islamism in France poses an existential threat to the republican idea, and to the bedrock principle of laïcité, or secularism—the notion that sectarian identities must be subsumed to the concept of Frenchness.

Le Pen, who inherited the National Front from her father, Jean-Marie, has worked diligently to bring her party closer to the French mainstream: no more thugs in leather jackets; no more public expressions of longing for Vichy; certainly no more Holocaust obsessiveness. (In 1987, Jean-Marie Le Pen famously said, “I ask myself several questions. I’m not saying the gas chambers didn’t exist. I haven’t seen them myself … But I believe it’s just a detail in the history of World War II.”)

Marine Le Pen is positioning herself as something of a philo-Semite. She is not under the illusion that she will sway large numbers of Jews to her side; in any case, the Jewish vote in France is minuscule. But people who follow her rise say she understands that one pathway to mainstream acceptance runs through the Jews: if she could neutralize the perception that the National Front is a fascist party by winning some measure of Jewish acceptance, she could help smooth her way to the presidency.

I met with Le Pen in February at her office in Nanterre, a Paris suburb. Outside the three-story National Front headquarters is a statue of Joan of Arc; inside, posters of Le Pen’s father hang on the walls. Le Pen has a brisk manner and a well-honed skill of deflecting journalists’ questions.

I told her I was shocked to find Jews in the banlieues who would look to the National Front for political salvation. She professed not to be shocked at all.

“The reality is that there exist in France associations that are supposedly representative of French Jews, which have stuck with a software that came out of the Second World War,” she said, meaning that members of the Jewish leadership are still preoccupied with the threat of Nazi-like fascism. “For decades they have continued to fight against an anti-Semitism that no longer exists in France, for reasons of—how should I say this?—intellectual laziness. And by a form of submission to the politically correct. And while they were doing this, while they were fighting against an enemy that no longer existed, an anti-Semitism was gaining force in France stemming notably from the development of fundamentalist Islamist thought.”

She went on, “But indisputably today, many Jewish French feel unsafe in France, assaulted because they’re Jewish.” She offered a partial defense of the allegation—popularized by, among others, Fox News—that some neighborhoods are too dangerous for non-Muslims to enter. “I challenge anyone to walk through one of these neighborhoods with a French flag at 7 o’clock at night and come out physically intact. And I didn’t even say an Israeli flag,” she said, laughing. “Because then … one wouldn’t have anything to wonder about.”

I asked her whether she agreed with Prime Minister Valls’s notion that the departure of 100,000 French Jews would be tragic for the country. I brought up Valls’s name on purpose: he and Le Pen may very well face each other in a future presidential contest, and Valls’s tough public statements about the threat of radical Islam seem motivated partly by a need to blunt Le Pen’s advantages with voters worried about terrorism.

“I don’t see Jews as a community,” she said. “I see fellow countrymen who are of Jewish faith but who are fellow countrymen, and I think that all French have the right to see themselves protected from the threats that weigh on them.”

She went on to disparage France’s current leaders for what she judged to be their ineffectiveness in countering Islamism. “Mr. Valls gave a grand and lovely speech,” she said, referring to his remarks after the January massacres, and then mocked his government’s plan to build a Web site called Stop Jihadism. “In my view,” she said sardonically, “this is going to terrorize the fundamentalists.”

Le Pen’s plan is more dramatic than anything offered so far by France’s two main parties: she would immediately strip “jihadists” of their citizenship, end immigration, and reinforce laïcité by limiting the public expression of religion. One manifestation of France’s debate about secularism is the frequent arguments over the acceptance of Muslim dress in the public square, so I asked whether a France ruled by the National Front would also prohibit Jews from wearing a kippah in public.

“I think the meaning is not the same,” she said. “To not acknowledge that is not to see reality. The meaning of the proliferation of the veil in France is not to be placed on the same plane as the wearing of the kippah. We know very well that the proliferation of the wearing of the veil—and in certain neighborhoods, the burka—is a political act. A female Muslim philosopher said, quite rightly, a little while ago, ‘A veiled woman is a walking morality lesson.’ ”

Her message is clear, though for obvious reasons it has been skeptically received: her father may have been an enemy of the Jewish community, but she is a friend.

“Jews,” she told me, “have nothing to fear from the National Front.”

VIII. The Promised Land

One evening this past September, Vice President Joe Biden and his wife, Jill, hosted a gathering in Washington to celebrate Rosh Hashanah, the Jewish new year. The guests—political supporters, leaders of Jewish organizations, members of Congress, Jewish officials of the Obama administration, and the stray journalist or two—gathered by the pool of the vice president’s house, on the grounds of the U.S. Naval Observatory.

Biden was characteristically prolix. He talked about the Shoah, and about the many contributions Jews have made to American life, and he mentioned, as he invariably does in such settings, his first encounter with a legendary Israeli prime minister.

“I had the great pleasure of knowing every prime minister since Golda Meir, when I was a young man in the Senate, and I’ll never forget talking to her in her office with her assistant—a guy named Rabin—about the Six-Day War,” he said. “The end of the meeting, we get up and walk out, the doors are open, and … the press is taking photos … She looked straight ahead and said, ‘Senator, don’t look so sad … Don’t worry. We Jews have a secret weapon.’ ”

He said he asked her what that secret weapon was.

“I thought she was going to tell me something about a nuclear program,” Biden continued. “She looked straight ahead and she said, ‘We have no place else to go.’ ” He paused, and repeated: “ ‘We have no place else to go.’ ”

“Folks,” he continued, “there is no place else to go, and you understand that in your bones. You understand in your bones that no matter how hospitable, no matter how consequential, no matter how engaged, no matter how deeply involved you are in the United States … there’s only one guarantee. There is really only one absolute guarantee, and that’s the state of Israel. And so I just want to assure you, for all the talk, and I know sometimes my guy”—President Obama—“gets beat up a little bit, but I guarantee you: he shares the exact same commitment to the security of Israel.”

There was applause, and then photos, and then kosher canapés. I will admit to being confused by Biden’s understanding of the relationship between America and its Jewish citizens. The vice president, it seemed to me, was trafficking in antiquated notions about Jewish anxiety.

Nearly 30 years ago, I moved to Israel, in part because I wanted to participate in the drama of Jewish national self-determination, but also because I believed that life in the Diaspora, including the American Diaspora, wasn’t particularly safe for Jews, or Judaism. Several years in Israel, and some sober thinking about the American Jewish condition, cured me of that particular belief.

I suspect that quite a few American Jews believe, as Biden does, that Jews can find greater safety in Israel than in America—but I imagine that they are mainly of Biden’s generation, or older.

A large majority of American Jews feels affection for Israel, and is concerned for its safety, and understands the role it plays as a home of last resort for endangered brethren around the world. But very few American Jews, in my experience, believe they will ever need to make use of the Israeli lifeboat. The American Jewish community faces enormous challenges, but these mainly have to do with assimilation, and with maintaining cultural identity and religious commitment. To be sure, anti-Semitism exists in the United States—and in my experience, some European Jewish leaders are quite ready to furnish examples to anyone suggesting that European Jews might be better off in America. According to the latest FBI statistics, from 2013, Jews are by far the most-frequent victims of religiously motivated hate crimes in America. But this is still anti-Semitism on the margins. A recent Pew poll found that Jews are also the most warmly regarded religious group in America.

For millennia, Jews have been asking this question: Where, exactly, is it safe? Maimonides, the 12th-century philosopher, wrestled with this question continually, asking himself whether it was better for Jews to live in the lands of Esau—Christendom—or in the lands of Ishmael.

“The thing about this question is that it is always about a decision made at a specific point in time,” David Nirenberg, the University of Chicago scholar, told me. “If you looked around the world in 1890, you might have said Germany and England were the best places. If you’re looking around the world in 1930, you could have made a good argument that the United States was not a great place for Jews.”

Today, the world’s 14 million or so Jews are found mainly in two places: Israel and the United States. Israel has the largest Jewish population, slightly more than 6 million. The U.S. has about 5.7 million. Europe, including Russia, has a Jewish population of roughly 1.4 million. There are about 1 million Jews scattered across the rest of the world, including significant communities in Argentina, Brazil, Mexico, South Africa, Australia, and Canada.

It is not uncommon to hear European Jews argue today that their departure from the Continent would grant Hitler a posthumous victory. The desire of so many Jews in Europe to remain in Europe, and remain European, is admirable. All across Europe—from Great Britain, where the situation does not feel so dire, to Sweden, where it does—I met Jews leading full Jewish lives.

In Stockholm, I spent a day at a small Jewish institute called Paideia, which focuses in good part on classical text study. Its students are mainly young European Jews who have expressed a commitment to remaining in their home countries. “These are not naive people, and they are not suicidal,” the institute’s founding director, Barbara Spectre, said. “They grew up with a full understanding of the Holocaust and its implications. The fact that they are staying in Europe testifies to something that we must respect: there is going to be Jewish life in Europe. There is a certain nobility about the decision to stay in Europe.”

On the other hand, there is this: a 2013 survey conducted by the European Union Agency for Fundamental Rights found that 60 percent of Sweden’s Jews fear being publicly identified as Jewish.

Critics of the Jews have often called us stiff-necked, but sometimes this insult can be understood as a compliment. And yet, stubbornness for the sake of stubbornness has a half-life.

One night, I had dinner in Brussels with Ariella Woitchik, a senior official in the European Jewish Congress, and her husband, Gregory, a lawyer. The congress lobbies the European Union on matters related to the well-being of Jews. Woitchik’s job demands that she be publicly committed to the perpetuation of European Jewish life, but she seems to come by this feeling honestly. “On a moral and philosophical level, the question is, why should we leave?,” Woitchik said. “Belgium is our country.”

I told them of my visit, earlier that day, to the Jewish Museum of Belgium, the recent massacre site. The museum, by necessity, is not well marked. When I asked police officers on the street whether I had indeed found the museum, one asked me, “Why?”

“Because I want to visit,” I said.

“Why?” he asked.

I gave what turned out to be the correct answer: “Je suis Juif.”

In a courtyard I found a plaque memorializing the victims of last May’s attack. It read, in French, Dutch, and English:
This aggression against a specific culture, aims at isolating the relevant community from the population of which it is an integral part. With unanimous consent, the Jewish Museum of Belgium considers that the continuation and the development of its activities are the most appropriate answer to this barbarian act.
So admirable—but also, perhaps, so futile. What I did not find at the museum were visitors; I was the only person there.

Woitchik admitted she is hesitant these days to attend services at her synagogue. “If we have children,” she said, “I’m worried about sending them to the Jewish schools, because they’re targets. But in the public schools, Jewish kids are themselves individual targets of anti-Semitic bullying …” She trailed off.

“Maybe we’re just kidding ourselves,” she finally said.

I tend to think they are. European Jewry does not have a bright future. A declining population (the German Jewish community in 2013 recorded 250 births and more than 1,000 deaths); the return of old habits of anti-Semitic thought; the rise of the far right in a period of stagnation and cultural crisis; the waning of Shoah consciousness; the inability of European states to integrate Muslims; and the continued radicalization of a small but meaningful subset of those Muslims—all of this means that Jews across large stretches of Europe will live for some time to come with danger and uncertainty. (Perhaps the saddest, and most debasing, comment I saw from a Jewish leader came in the wake of the Copenhagen synagogue attack, from Jair Melchior, the head of Denmark’s Jewish community, who was arguing that anti-Jewish activity in the country was relatively mild. “It’s not a dangerous anti-Semitism,” he told Reuters. “It’s spitting, cursing, like that.”) Of course it is possible, in ways that were not 80 years ago, for Jews to dissolve themselves into the larger culture. But for Jews who would like to stay Jewish in some sort of meaningful way, there are better places than Europe.

Despite all of this, we will not witness a mass exodus anytime soon. It is not so easy to pick up from one place and move to another. The Jews, the “ever-dying people,” in the words of the late historian Simon Rawidowicz, have a gift for self-perpetuation. “All Jewish stories come to an end,” the German Jewish novelist Maxim Biller told me recently, “but then they just keep going.”

The Israeli government, as one might expect, is interested in accelerating the departure of Jews from Europe. Israeli leaders have lectured French Jews about the necessity of aliyah, or emigration to Israel, in ways that have displeased French leaders, including the prime minister, and have also frustrated some French Jewish leaders. “To all the Jews of France, all the Jews of Europe, I would like to say that Israel is not just the place in whose direction you pray. The state of Israel is your home,” the Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, said after the kosher-market attack. (He reprised this entreaty after the attack in Copenhagen a month later.)

Even some French Jews who are contemplating aliyah, and who tend toward the right end of the Israeli political spectrum, told me that they found Netanyahu’s remarks unhelpful. Others noted that life in Israel is not especially tranquil. Jews die violently in Israel, too. And while the presence of so many Jews in one narrow place has created a dynamic country, it has also created a temptation for those inclined toward genocide. In 2002, Hassan Nasrallah, the leader of Hezbollah, reportedly said in a speech that if the Jews “all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide.”

The argument for Israel is one that has been made since Theodor Herzl witnessed the humiliation of Alfred Dreyfus: Jews living in their own country are at least masters of their own fate. No more relying on the fleeting kindness of Christian princes or the caprice of Ottoman viziers. Or, for that matter, on the continued embrace of a French prime minister or the uncertain mercies of the National Front. Israel’s success, or failure, is largely in Jewish hands.

Yet Israel’s future as a Jewish haven is an open question. Alain Finkielkraut, the French philosopher who is a harsh critic of his country’s management of the jihadist threat, is also a strong critic of current Israeli policy. “It is an irony of history that people who move to Israel as Jews might be moving to a state that in the next decades becomes a binational state with a Jewish minority, because of the occupation of the West Bank and the settlements,” he told me when we talked in Paris in January. “Moving from France to escape the attacks of Arabs to a country that will not be Jewish does not make a lot of sense.”

ast spring, on a visit to Chișinău, the capital of Moldova, the former Soviet republic situated between Romania and Ukraine, I met a delightful group of Jews in their teens and 20s, most of whom had learned only recently that they were Jewish. This is a common occurrence in Europe’s east; the collapse of communism has allowed Jews to admit to themselves, and to their children, the truth of their origins. (This is becoming a phenomenon in other countries as well. A 2008 genetic study found that about 20 percent of the populations of Spain and Portugal have some Jewish heritage.) Barbara Spectre, the Jewish educator in Sweden, calls these people the “dis-assimilated.” The youth group I encountered meets each week to learn Jewish prayers and sing Jewish songs.

The modest rebirth of Jewish life in Chișinău is a remarkable thing, because Chișinău, which is known in Russian as Kishinev, was the location, in 1903, of one of the most terrible pogroms in European history—a pogrom that turned tens of thousands of Jews toward Zionism, and sent many more on the path to America. Included in this latter group was a branch of my family. My grandfather grew up in a pogrom-afflicted village, not far from Kishinev, called Leova.

One afternoon, I met Moldova’s then–prime minister, Iurie Leancă, to discuss the return of another sort of European historical pathology—Vladimir Putin’s attempt to rebuild the Russian empire at the expense of, among others, Leancă’s small and hapless country. The prime minister, a progressive, pro-Western politician, was eager to make his case for American support, but he was especially eager to tell me of his sadness that Moldova is home to so few Jews today. He was touchingly sincere; my grandfather would have been moved—and incredulous. As I was leaving, the prime minister mentioned that he was trying to raise funds to build a Jewish museum in Chișinău. The parliament is willing, he said, but the country is poor. “A friend of mine said I should ask the Rothschilds for help,” he said. “Do you know any Rothschilds?”

The next day, I drove an hour southwest to Leova. My grandfather had painted vivid pictures of his shtetl youth, and Leova, which has not left poverty in the intervening century, came alive before my eyes. Here was the river where he watered the half-blind family horse; here was the Jewish cemetery; here, down a muddy path, was the old synagogue; here was the church where the priests denounced the Christ-killers.

There are no Jews left in Leova. What used to be the synagogue is now a gymnasium; the caretaker tried to sell it to me. The Holocaust history of Leova is incompletely known, but the last Jews appear to have been rounded up in late 1941 by Germany’s Romanian allies. According to records in the Moldovan State Archives, this group included six people who I believe were part of my grandfather’s family, among them five children, ages 15, 12, 9, 7, and 3. Their last known destination was a concentration camp in Cahul, in what is today southern Moldova.

I am predisposed to believe that there is no great future for the Jews in Europe, because evidence to support this belief is accumulating so quickly. But I am also predisposed to think this because I am an American Jew—which is to say, a person who exists because his ancestors made a run for it when they could.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/10 21:18:38


Post by: squidhills


So is the guy who wrote that saying that Jews should leave Europe because everybody hates them there? And go where? Presumably to Israel, which is surrounded by countries where everybody hates them.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/10 21:23:59


Post by: Manchu


squidhills wrote:
Presumably to Israel, which is surrounded by countries where everybody hates them.
In the video, Leon Wieseltier calls this cheap irony. I think I would just call it a cheap shot.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/10 21:26:17


Post by: Soladrin


I'm sorry what? I'm going to just say I keep up with all the news in my country and this is not a thing here.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/10 21:29:35


Post by: Ratius


Not an iota of this in Ireland to be honest.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/10 21:31:02


Post by: Grimskul


I think the phrase "NEVER AGAIN" was unfortunately already proven to be little more than a catch phrase that caught on moreso than a creed that people have acted upon. Given the active policy of disengagement in the Rwandan Genocide despite all the warning signs and obvious acts of atrocity the UN and the U.S. did jack all.

So I could definitely see this being a real underlying issue in Europe, especially since their history compared to ours in the Americas as immigrant nations is quite stark in many cases and this particular area is one of them.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/10 21:32:16


Post by: Hivefleet Oblivion


A good story - thanks for posting - although I don't think what one could term the central thesis, that there is a kind of meeting point of lefty and Muslim anti-semitism, is proven, or even convincing. But it reminds of what a nasty place Europe is becoming, with a lot of old prejudices being revived.

In the UK at the moment, one major party is campaigning in the current general election on the basis of prejudice against Romanians - gypsies, who Hitler didn't quite manage to exterminate - and "people who come to the UK with HIV" ie gays or Africans. I didn't think I'd see that in my lifetime.

I'm sad to see that so many Jews in Europe feel victimised, often with justification; just as I'm sad to see Benjamin Netanyahu being re-elected on what I'd describe as a right-wing ticket.



Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/10 21:33:44


Post by: MrDwhitey


I've paid very little attention to the elections, could you tell me which party this is?


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/10 21:36:27


Post by: Hivefleet Oblivion


 MrDwhitey wrote:
I've paid very little attention to the elections, could you tell me which party this is?

Nigel Farage in the recent leaders' debate, singled out Romanians as one reason UK should leave the EU, and said he'd bar people with HIV entering the country or refuse them access to the NHS.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/10 21:36:34


Post by: Manchu


Just found this recent characterization of Mr. Goldberg by an avowed "progressive Jewish" persepctive:
This is the journalist who 13 years ago conveyed wrong information about Saddam Hussein’s supposed chemical weapons that became a pretext for the disastrous Iraq war. Five years ago Goldberg said that the Israelis were preparing to bomb Iran in the next year– wrong again. And in the 80s Goldberg emigrated to Israel and even served in their army because he thought the U.S. was too dangerous a place for Jews. Wrong again.
I'm not trying to undermine his perspective; just attempting to head that off at the pass, so to speak. In the US, there is tension between Jewish neo-Conservatives and Jewish Democrats, especially over American foreign policy in the Middle East; it's just important to point out that is the context for the criticism.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Soladrin wrote:
I'm sorry what? I'm going to just say I keep up with all the news in my country and this is not a thing here.
From the article:
[The head of education at the Anne Frank Museum] said the museum has made an intensive study of anti-Semitism in the Netherlands, and has learned that most verbal expressions of anti-Semitism in secondary schools come from boys and are related to soccer.
When I left, two policemen were patrolling the narrow street outside the museum. A temporary surveillance post had been erected just across from the entrance. I asked one of the officers whether this level of security was normal. He said the government had increased security around the museum last spring, shortly after a massacre at another Jewish site: On May 24, four people were murdered at the Jewish Museum of Belgium, in Brussels, allegedly by a French Muslim of jihadist bent named Mehdi Nemmouche. Two Israeli tourists, a French volunteer, and a Belgian employee of Muslim and Jewish descent were killed. Nemmouche had recently returned to Europe after a term with ISIS in Syria, where, according to a former French hostage of ISIS, his specialty was torturing prisoners.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/10 21:42:27


Post by: LordofHats


Frankly. I read this and all I see is "the world hates Jews. Lets all go to Israel." Only the the former statement is basically running on cherry picking and exaggeration.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/10 21:42:58


Post by: General Orange


As a Turk who lives in France, I would take my by bagages and encourage everyone to leave somewhere safe ( usa mostly ) because war is closing in, I can smell it. And when it happens, I am sure that the people are going to start a revolution akaa bloodbath of " we must kill all strangers ".

My 2 cents


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As a Turk who lives in France, I would take my by bagages and encourage everyone to leave somewhere safe ( usa mostly ) because war is closing in, I can smell it. And when it happens, I am sure that the people are going to start a revolution akaa bloodbath of " we must kill all strangers ".

My 2 cents


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/10 21:45:20


Post by: RaptorusRex


[X] can't protect you from da vile Arab! Come to Israel, where we get to stomp on their rights for a change and get free land!


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/10 21:46:25


Post by: Manchu


 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
I don't think what one could term the central thesis, that there is a kind of meeting point of lefty and Muslim anti-semitism, is proven, or even convincing
I really don't think that is the thesis at all. According to the article, and I think this is a more widely held belief, European leftists are hesitant to call out Muslim anti-Semitism because it could be conflated with racism or rightist anti-immigration sentiment. We have the same issue in the USA.
 Grimskul wrote:
I think the phrase "NEVER AGAIN" was unfortunately already proven to be little more than a catch phrase that caught on moreso than a creed that people have acted upon.
What I was trying to evoke was specific to the Holocaust and anti-Semitism. When I was a kid, the Holocaust was a constant topic of conversation in school and in popular culture. We took field trips to Holocaust museum in Washington, D.C., for example. I don't know if this is how things are today. In any case, unfortunate as it may be, I don't think the sentiment was universal. Part of the reason is that the liberation of the camps is a major cornerstone of American "mytholgification" of WW2 as the war where the USA indisputably personified the forces of Good. Our inaction concerning Rwanda isn't quite so glorious ...


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/10 21:50:33


Post by: djphranq


Thank you for sharing. This is a very interesting article. The title is very grabbing. Triggering... but attention getting regardless.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/10 21:56:04


Post by: Manchu


Yeah, I think it is intentionally evoking anti-Semitic propaganda, which is supposed to make one feel uncomfortable, and then one realizes this question is posed by Jews to Jews, and that makes one feel even more uncomfortable.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/10 22:03:18


Post by: Soladrin


 Manchu wrote:
Just found this recent characterization of Mr. Goldberg by an avowed "progressive Jewish" persepctive:
This is the journalist who 13 years ago conveyed wrong information about Saddam Hussein’s supposed chemical weapons that became a pretext for the disastrous Iraq war. Five years ago Goldberg said that the Israelis were preparing to bomb Iran in the next year– wrong again. And in the 80s Goldberg emigrated to Israel and even served in their army because he thought the U.S. was too dangerous a place for Jews. Wrong again.
I'm not trying to undermine his perspective; just attempting to head that off at the pass, so to speak. In the US, there is tension between Jewish neo-Conservatives and Jewish Democrats, especially over American foreign policy in the Middle East; it's just important to point out that is the context for the criticism.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Soladrin wrote:
I'm sorry what? I'm going to just say I keep up with all the news in my country and this is not a thing here.
From the article:
[The head of education at the Anne Frank Museum] said the museum has made an intensive study of anti-Semitism in the Netherlands, and has learned that most verbal expressions of anti-Semitism in secondary schools come from boys and are related to soccer.
When I left, two policemen were patrolling the narrow street outside the museum. A temporary surveillance post had been erected just across from the entrance. I asked one of the officers whether this level of security was normal. He said the government had increased security around the museum last spring, shortly after a massacre at another Jewish site: On May 24, four people were murdered at the Jewish Museum of Belgium, in Brussels, allegedly by a French Muslim of jihadist bent named Mehdi Nemmouche. Two Israeli tourists, a French volunteer, and a Belgian employee of Muslim and Jewish descent were killed. Nemmouche had recently returned to Europe after a term with ISIS in Syria, where, according to a former French hostage of ISIS, his specialty was torturing prisoners.


Ah, that's easily explained. One of our big soccer teams (Ajax) is closely associated with jews (for some reason I don't understand) and the hardcore fans of an opposing team do tend to spout anti-semitical slurs. These appear to be less related to actual anti-semitism and more about Soccer rivalries which, being Europe, tend to get rather bad.

Also, the quote you used kind of outlines the problem as well. It wasn't just a muslim who comitted that atrocity in Belgium, it was someone with IS. I tend to distinguish the two. Honestly, the biggest problem we have in this country right now is our train conductors getting assaulted by general scum. Sadly, I often come of as anti-Islam/middle eastern when I talk about these kind of subjects because it's a sad fact of life here that a high percentage of crimes are committed by that population group. This is wrong because I hate all religions equally. It just happens that a lot of immigrants to The Netherlands since the 70's came from Morrocco and Turkey.

These original immigrants don't cause any trouble. It's the teenage/early 20's offspring of said immigrants that tend to get into trouble. I don't mean to generalize here but it's the easiest way to talk about the issue. I genuinely have to consider avoiding a street if I see it's blockaded by 14 to 20 year old kids who are of middle eastern descent. I hate that this is a thing but I do it out of experience, not pure prejudice. I don't like being harassed, insulted and threatened.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/10 22:05:55


Post by: Manchu


It comes up in the article that Muslim anti-Semitism in Europe is not some problem with Islam but rather is in some sense supported by the already-existing framework of European anti-Semitism as well as heightened by the inability/unwillingness of Muslim immigrants to integrate into European society.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/10 22:06:14


Post by: statu


 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
 MrDwhitey wrote:
I've paid very little attention to the elections, could you tell me which party this is?

Nigel Farage in the recent leaders' debate, singled out Romanians as one reason UK should leave the EU, and said he'd bar people with HIV entering the country or refuse them access to the NHS.


Bash him all you want, but bash him for the right reasons. The comment about HIV was whilst they were talking about how to save money in the NHS, and he pointed out that a lot of money is spent on 'health tourism', with X number of people going to England for the diagnosis and medicine as they can't otherwise afford it. He then said that anyone entering the UK should have insurance before they arrive, or not be allowed to enter the country. I don't support UKIP, despite them having a few policies I agree with, they have too many I don't agree with, but when people continuously misreport what they actually said, it makes me want to vote for them


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/10 22:09:21


Post by: NuggzTheNinja


 RaptorusRex wrote:
[X] can't protect you from da vile Arab! Come to Israel, where we get to stomp on their rights for a change and get free land!


Arabs in Israel have more rights than Arabs in Gaza, and more opportunities for advancement than in most other countries in the Middle East. Thanks for chiming in, though.


As for the OP, I'm not sure that it's gotten to that point yet. There are a lot of problems in Europe, and unfortunately their Jewish communities sometimes get it from both sides - European antisemites, and Muslims. In Israel, I met plenty of emigrants from Europe who described the situation as tense and, in some cases, dire. The emigrants from Russia generally said much the same thing. However, we are probably past the age of mass genocide in countries with strong social media presence and global ties, with a few notable exceptions.

To sum up, my opinion is this: If Jews in Europe are worried about hooligan activity from European antisemites and terrorist attacks from Muslims, then they need to take some responsibility for their own safety. If the religious population, who bear the brunt of these aggressions, want protection, then it's time they provide it for themselves. If you act like a skinny little pushover, people are going to treat you like a skinny little pushover. The response shouldn't be to run away to Israel - the last thing that Israel needs is more religious Jews who leech off of social benefits without serving in the military.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/10 22:12:13


Post by: Soladrin


 Manchu wrote:
It comes up in the article that Muslim anti-Semitism in Europe is not some problem with Islam but rather is in some sense supported by the already-existing framework of European anti-Semitism as well as heightened by the inability/unwillingness of Muslim immigrants to integrate into European society.


Edited some more onto my previous post so please read that first (you posted in the mean time).

That said. I have absolutely no experience with this already-existing framework you speak of. There are some Neo-Nazi's around I suppose, but other then that I have never heard anyone ever talk about Jews, be it positive or negative. It really just doesn't come up. This all said, only 17% of our population is theistic.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/10 22:17:40


Post by: Manchu


 Soladrin wrote:
These original immigrants don't cause any trouble. It's the teenage/early 20's offspring of said immigrants that tend to get into trouble.
From the article:
Bensemhoun, who is in his mid-50s, is Sephardic, born in Morocco. Three-quarters of France’s Jews are Sephardim, chased from Algeria, Morocco, and Tunisia in the 1950s and ’60s.

Many of Bensemhoun’s patients are North African Muslims. “These are people like me, who were born there,” he told me outside the school’s synagogue. “We speak the same language, literally”—he says he and his patients move easily between Arabic and French—“and we understand each other in very deep ways. They’re very comfortable with me as their doctor.” He went on, “But it’s changed in recent years. Now their children are telling them, ‘Don’t go to the Jew,’ ‘You can’t trust the Jew.’ They’ve become radicalized. It’s upsetting. The new generation is anti-Semitic in a way that we haven’t experienced.”

Are these patients listening to their children? “Yes,” he said. “In some cases, yes.”

 Soladrin wrote:
This all said, only 17% of our population is theistic.
Being religious is not a good indicator for anti-Semitism.
 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
However, we are probably past the age of mass genocide in countries with strong social media presence and global ties, with a few notable exceptions.
I don't think the concern is that there will be another state-led genocide anywhere in Europe so much that the problem of anti-Semitic criminal violence will only get worse and worse.
 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
If you act like a skinny little pushover, people are going to treat you like a skinny little pushover.
Are you advocating ... like Jewish kids should go out in the streets and fight? Or what?


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/10 22:51:52


Post by: Soladrin


First off, I don't live in France. these experiences are not the same. I understand that looking at Europe from the USA makes Western Europe look like one big blob but there are very big differences.

Also, you say being religious is not a good indicator for anti-Semitism. Let me argue then, where else does anti-semitism come from? If your an atheist (like me) the religion of an individual makes no difference. I don't like religion, the end. You won't hear me say, I don't like religion ESPECIALY the Jews.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/10 23:11:14


Post by: LordofHats


 Soladrin wrote:
Let me argue then, where else does anti-semitism come from?


A fair amount of modern antisemitism is derived from anti-Israeli sentiment (and yes there is a difference in so far as Israel is a State, and Semite is an ethnic group). Kind of the hazard of creating a 'Jewish State' is that anything that state does has a degree of fallback on Jews, even if they aren't part of that state. Throw in that much of Europe since the 80's has been politically sympathetic to Palestine, or even antagonistic towards 'Israeli Imperialism' in the Middle East and you end up with an environment where antisemitism becomes an issue.

Of course this is where the irony of this particular author writing on this particular subject kind of comes in.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/10 23:12:29


Post by: Strombones


 Manchu wrote:
It comes up in the article that Muslim anti-Semitism in Europe is not some problem with Islam but rather is in some sense supported by the already-existing framework of European anti-Semitism as well as heightened by the inability/unwillingness of Muslim immigrants to integrate into European society.


This was a great read, really hooked me in from the get go.

The most interesting facet to me is the author's comparison not of 1933 but of 1929. A global economic downturn and a seeming rise of fascist populism is eerie.

Thanks for sharing Manchu!


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/10 23:15:12


Post by: Soladrin


 LordofHats wrote:
 Soladrin wrote:
Let me argue then, where else does anti-semitism come from?


A fair amount of modern antisemitism is derived from anti-Israeli sentiment (and yes there is a difference in so far as Israel is a State, and Semite is an ethnic group). Kind of the hazard of creating a 'Jewish State' is that anything that state does has a degree of fallback on Jews, even if they aren't part of that state. Throw in that much of Europe since the 80's has been politically sympathetic to Palestine, or even antagonistic towards 'Israeli Imperialism' in the Middle East and you end up with an environment where antisemitism becomes an issue.

Of course this is where the irony of this particular author writing on this particular subject kind of comes in.


I'm going to go off the idea that my experiences of life are completely different then. I honestly can't think of anyone who's sympathetic with Palestine in my life, IS didn't help raise general acceptance of Islam though.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/10 23:17:01


Post by: Orlanth


It is time for Jews to leave parts of Europe.

Sweden for one.

its basically safe to be a Jew elsewhere, for now. But Jews should watch the weather, very few people want to know about radical Islam, especially those in positions of public influence, and much is glossed over.



Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/10 23:21:09


Post by: Grey Templar


 LordofHats wrote:
 Soladrin wrote:
Let me argue then, where else does anti-semitism come from?


A fair amount of modern antisemitism is derived from anti-Israeli sentiment (and yes there is a difference in so far as Israel is a State, and Semite is an ethnic group). Kind of the hazard of creating a 'Jewish State' is that anything that state does has a degree of fallback on Jews, even if they aren't part of that state. Throw in that much of Europe since the 80's has been politically sympathetic to Palestine, or even antagonistic towards 'Israeli Imperialism' in the Middle East and you end up with an environment where antisemitism becomes an issue.

Of course this is where the irony of this particular author writing on this particular subject kind of comes in.


There is also hundreds of years of the culture being anti-semetic. Largely influenced by undesirable religious reasons, but its carried into the general society. It was partially influenced by the fact a lot of banks were run by Jews, a profession traditionally viewed very poorly in Christianity. Borrowers and lenders have a Master/Slave relationship, and bankers in the past were well known to often take huge advantage of borrowers. Especially before regulation. So it leads to a stereotype of a greedy evil Banker, correlated with Judiasim.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/10 23:24:17


Post by: Soladrin


 Grey Templar wrote:
 LordofHats wrote:
 Soladrin wrote:
Let me argue then, where else does anti-semitism come from?


A fair amount of modern antisemitism is derived from anti-Israeli sentiment (and yes there is a difference in so far as Israel is a State, and Semite is an ethnic group). Kind of the hazard of creating a 'Jewish State' is that anything that state does has a degree of fallback on Jews, even if they aren't part of that state. Throw in that much of Europe since the 80's has been politically sympathetic to Palestine, or even antagonistic towards 'Israeli Imperialism' in the Middle East and you end up with an environment where antisemitism becomes an issue.

Of course this is where the irony of this particular author writing on this particular subject kind of comes in.


There is also hundreds of years of the culture being anti-semetic. Largely influenced by undesirable religious reasons, but its carried into the general society. It was partially influenced by the fact a lot of banks were run by Jews, a profession traditionally viewed very poorly in Christianity. Borrowers and lenders have a Master/Slave relationship, and bankers in the past were well known to often take huge advantage of borrowers. Especially before regulation. So it leads to a stereotype of a greedy evil Banker, correlated with Judiasim.


Yeah... I guess that's where it helps to be atheist. I don't conflict a person being an arse with the entirety of a race.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/10 23:24:59


Post by: Manchu


Don't get me wrong, anti-Semitism has often enough been associated with religious doctrines, both Christian and Muslim. But you don't need to be a Christian or Muslim to be an anti-Semite. You have heard of that Hitler guy, presumably? And neither is anti-Israel sentiment necessary. Obviously there was no such nation back in the 1920s and 30s. People hate on the basis of difference. Jews have been vulnerable because they are visibly different, thanks to a number of reasons like laws segregating them from the rest of the population.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/10 23:31:23


Post by: Soladrin


 Manchu wrote:
Don't get me wrong, anti-Semitism has often enough been associated with religious doctrines, both Christian and Muslim. But you don't need to be a Christian or Muslim to be an anti-Semite. You have heard of that Hitler guy, presumably? And neither is anti-Israel sentiment necessary. Obviously there was no such nation back in the 1920s and 30s. People hate on the basis of difference. Jews have been vulnerable because they are visibly different, thanks to a number of reasons like laws segregating them from the rest of the population.


That guy Hitler who was Roman-Catholic? Yeah, I've heard of him. But let's not get into that discussion.

Anyway, all I've been trying to get across here is simply that the general populace, IN MY EXPERIENCE, does not seem to give a gak about this either way. I only ever see this topic come up in the news here when Ajax plays match, but I also think Sport fanatics are absolute degenerates.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/10 23:32:22


Post by: Ustrello


 Manchu wrote:
Don't get me wrong, anti-Semitism has often enough been associated with religious doctrines, both Christian and Muslim. But you don't need to be a Christian or Muslim to be an anti-Semite. You have heard of that Hitler guy, presumably? And neither is anti-Israel sentiment necessary. Obviously there was no such nation back in the 1920s and 30s. People hate on the basis of difference. Jews have been vulnerable because they are visibly different, thanks to a number of reasons like laws segregating them from the rest of the population.


People have been using the anti-israel sentiment to voice their anti semitism and mask it as anti-israel though to an increasing amount.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Soladrin wrote:
 Manchu wrote:
Don't get me wrong, anti-Semitism has often enough been associated with religious doctrines, both Christian and Muslim. But you don't need to be a Christian or Muslim to be an anti-Semite. You have heard of that Hitler guy, presumably? And neither is anti-Israel sentiment necessary. Obviously there was no such nation back in the 1920s and 30s. People hate on the basis of difference. Jews have been vulnerable because they are visibly different, thanks to a number of reasons like laws segregating them from the rest of the population.


That guy Hitler who was Roman-Catholic? Yeah, I've heard of him. But let's not get into that discussion.

Anyway, all I've been trying to get across here is simply that the general populace, IN MY EXPERIENCE, does not seem to give a gak about this either way. I only ever see this topic come up in the news here when Ajax plays match, but I also think Sport fanatics are absolute degenerates.


He wasn't religious he was just pragmatic about it and used it as a temporary thing.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/10 23:34:23


Post by: Grey Templar


 Soladrin wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:
 LordofHats wrote:
 Soladrin wrote:
Let me argue then, where else does anti-semitism come from?


A fair amount of modern antisemitism is derived from anti-Israeli sentiment (and yes there is a difference in so far as Israel is a State, and Semite is an ethnic group). Kind of the hazard of creating a 'Jewish State' is that anything that state does has a degree of fallback on Jews, even if they aren't part of that state. Throw in that much of Europe since the 80's has been politically sympathetic to Palestine, or even antagonistic towards 'Israeli Imperialism' in the Middle East and you end up with an environment where antisemitism becomes an issue.

Of course this is where the irony of this particular author writing on this particular subject kind of comes in.


There is also hundreds of years of the culture being anti-semetic. Largely influenced by undesirable religious reasons, but its carried into the general society. It was partially influenced by the fact a lot of banks were run by Jews, a profession traditionally viewed very poorly in Christianity. Borrowers and lenders have a Master/Slave relationship, and bankers in the past were well known to often take huge advantage of borrowers. Especially before regulation. So it leads to a stereotype of a greedy evil Banker, correlated with Judiasim.


Yeah... I guess that's where it helps to be atheist. I don't conflict a person being an arse with the entirety of a race.


It really had very little to do with religion and more to do with bankers being viewed as scum. You didn't have to be religious to not like being screwed over. It has some religious cause on top of it, but it was mostly environmental.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/10 23:37:26


Post by: Dreadclaw69


This discussion has been in the background for a while, but events in France have given this issue more prominence. It's a thought provoking and yet uncomfortable read.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/10 23:40:37


Post by: LordofHats


 Grey Templar wrote:
It really had very little to do with religion and more to do with bankers being viewed as scum. You didn't have to be religious to not like being screwed over. It has some religious cause on top of it, but it was mostly environmental.


That's oversimplifying it (and white washing). Blaming Jews for killing Jesus was quite popular among Christians in the Early Modern period. In the Enlightenment Era, where Western Exceptionalism was inherently tied to Christianity, looking at Jews as both an inferior race riding the greatness of proper Europeans and as having an inferior religion was also very common.

It is impossible to completely separate European antisemitism from Christianity. It's an ugly reality, but it's reality. It is part of the cultural past and thus transitively part of the cultural present.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/10 23:45:37


Post by: Grey Templar


 LordofHats wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:
It really had very little to do with religion and more to do with bankers being viewed as scum. You didn't have to be religious to not like being screwed over. It has some religious cause on top of it, but it was mostly environmental.


That's oversimplifying it (and white washing). Blaming Jews for killing Jesus was quite popular among Christians in the Early Modern period. In the Enlightenment Era, where Western Exceptionalism was inherently tied to Christianity, looking at Jews as both an inferior race riding the greatness of proper Europeans and as having an inferior religion was also very common.

It is impossible to completely separate European antisemitism from Christianity. It's an ugly reality, but it's reality. It is part of the cultural past and thus transitively part of the cultural present.


Yes, it was tied to religion in the past. But only so far as the religion had a huge impact on the culture in the past. Its no longer tied to the religion proper. Today its the generic culture.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/10 23:53:40


Post by: LordofHats


Well the same is true of the past views of bankers and money lenders. Granted, even today bankers and money lenders get a lot of flak, but it's nothing compared to the "these guys are trash and sinners" kind of attitudes held by Medieval Europe. Money is of course of "root of all evil" (so said some famous guy) and no one ever got a good reputation back then living a life doing nothing but moving money around


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/11 00:05:16


Post by: Pacific


 LordofHats wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:
It really had very little to do with religion and more to do with bankers being viewed as scum. You didn't have to be religious to not like being screwed over. It has some religious cause on top of it, but it was mostly environmental.


That's oversimplifying it (and white washing). Blaming Jews for killing Jesus was quite popular among Christians in the Early Modern period. In the Enlightenment Era, where Western Exceptionalism was inherently tied to Christianity, looking at Jews as both an inferior race riding the greatness of proper Europeans and as having an inferior religion was also very common.

It is impossible to completely separate European antisemitism from Christianity. It's an ugly reality, but it's reality. It is part of the cultural past and thus transitively part of the cultural present.


It's interesting, I recently read a book about Edward the first ('Longshanks' of England). One of his lesser known acts was to make illegal (and punishable by death) the practice of 'silver shaving'; the process whereby merchants and bankers would shave tiny slivers of metal from coins, and then smelt them into larger blocks. In a night of raids by soldiers, some three hundred (mostly Jewish) were taken to the Tower and executed for this crime. It came at a time when Edward's treasury was gasping for breath, trying to finance several costly military expeditions into Scotland and Wales. Interestingly, up until that point in the thirteenth century Britain had been recognised as a haven for Jews (a lot had not long been expelled from Florence).

It's very easy to draw parallels from this instance to other events, across Europe, in the past thousand years and more. Unfortunately, it seems that even in modern societies the same propencities remain in terms of how we function as collective groups; like the Romanies, the lack of assimilation by Jewish people into the parent culture they inhabit means that they are often the first target once times of economic hardship are encountered. It can be for reasons of religion, of renewed nationalism, but in each case they are scapegoated as cause for whatever the current travails are, and separated from the rest of society. I think the fact that educated people know of this (and I'm sure there were similar conversations taking place in biergartens in Germany in the 20's and 30's) unfortunately doesn't seem to have much bearing on the larger sentiments in society, and for the abilities of unscrupulous politicians to tweek people's fears and base instincts.

I'm not sure what the answer is; better education for all? a further entrenchment of liberalism and tolerance?


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/11 00:05:28


Post by: Ahtman


Is it time for gamers to leave Games Workshop?


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/11 00:09:00


Post by: Grey Templar


 Pacific wrote:
 LordofHats wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:
It really had very little to do with religion and more to do with bankers being viewed as scum. You didn't have to be religious to not like being screwed over. It has some religious cause on top of it, but it was mostly environmental.


That's oversimplifying it (and white washing). Blaming Jews for killing Jesus was quite popular among Christians in the Early Modern period. In the Enlightenment Era, where Western Exceptionalism was inherently tied to Christianity, looking at Jews as both an inferior race riding the greatness of proper Europeans and as having an inferior religion was also very common.

It is impossible to completely separate European antisemitism from Christianity. It's an ugly reality, but it's reality. It is part of the cultural past and thus transitively part of the cultural present.


It's interesting, I recently read a book about Edward the first ('Longshanks' of England). One of his lesser known acts was to make illegal (and punishable by death) the practice of 'silver shaving'; the process whereby merchants and bankers would shave tiny slivers of metal from coins, and then smelt them into larger blocks. In a night of raids by soldiers, some three hundred (mostly Jewish) were taken to the Tower and executed for this crime. It came at a time when Edward's treasury was gasping for breath, trying to finance several costly military expeditions into Scotland and Wales. Interestingly, up until that point in the thirteenth century Britain had been recognised as a haven for Jews (a lot had not long been expelled from Florence).

It's very easy to draw parallels from this instance to other events, across Europe, in the past thousand years and more. Unfortunately, it seems that even in modern societies the same propencities remain in terms of how we function as collective groups; like the Romanies, the lack of assimilation by Jewish people into the parent culture they inhabit means that they are often the first target once times of economic hardship are encountered. It can be for reasons of religion, of renewed nationalism, but in each case they are scapegoated as cause for whatever the current travails are, and separated from the rest of society. I think the fact that educated people know of this (and I'm sure there were similar conversations taking place in biergartens in Germany in the 20's and 30's) unfortunately doesn't seem to have much bearing on the larger sentiments in society, and for the abilities of unscrupulous politicians to tweek people's fears and base instincts.

I'm not sure what the answer is; better education for all? a further entrenchment of liberalism and tolerance?


Liberalism isn't exactly helping. Liberal thought is currently heavily biased to the group responsible for the most backward thinking and discrimination in the world right now.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/11 00:47:43


Post by: Ketara


 Pacific wrote:
Unfortunately, it seems that even in modern societies the same propencities remain in terms of how we function as collective groups; like the Romanies, the lack of assimilation by Jewish people into the parent culture they inhabit means that they are often the first target once times of economic hardship are encountered. ?


The Jews of 1930's Germany were the most assimilated Jewish population ever. Most considered themselves German and Jewish second.

It didn't save them.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/11 01:07:20


Post by: Soteks Prophet


The question that needs to be asked is why, throughout all of human history, have the Jews been reviled?

What do they do, or evoke from their neighbours that makes them hated?


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/11 01:09:50


Post by: Strombones


Pacific wrote:

It's very easy to draw parallels from this instance to other events, across Europe, in the past thousand years and more. Unfortunately, it seems that even in modern societies the same propencities remain in terms of how we function as collective groups; like the Romanies, the lack of assimilation by Jewish people into the parent culture they inhabit means that they are often the first target once times of economic hardship are encountered. It can be for reasons of religion, of renewed nationalism, but in each case they are scapegoated as cause for whatever the current travails are, and separated from the rest of society. I think the fact that educated people know of this (and I'm sure there were similar conversations taking place in biergartens in Germany in the 20's and 30's) unfortunately doesn't seem to have much bearing on the larger sentiments in society, and for the abilities of unscrupulous politicians to tweek people's fears and base instincts.

I'm not sure what the answer is; better education for all? a further entrenchment of liberalism and tolerance?


Well said.

Who knows what the answer is? Its kindof surreal to think that such an ancient social malaise can make such a powerful resurgence in the bastion of modern liberalism in what seems to me as an unprovoked manner. Anti-Semitism seems to have an absolute immortal quality and always becomes the common denominator of racial disdain.

I understand the perception that Jewish communities sometimes do not assimilate, but aren't Muslims in Europe immigrating much faster and assimilating even less? Im not very informed on French and European domestic politics so I'm genuinely curious.



Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/11 01:10:15


Post by: Soladrin


 Soteks Prophet wrote:
The question that needs to be asked is why, throughout all of human history, have the Jews been reviled?

What do they do, or evoke from their neighbours that makes them hated?


Having a bad name in other fairy tale books.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/11 01:19:57


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Soteks Prophet wrote:
The question that needs to be asked is why, throughout all of human history, have the Jews been reviled?

What do they do, or evoke from their neighbours that makes them hated?

Mostly, it is conspiracy theories. They say Jews want to control the world and keep the 'goys' (non-jews) as their slaves, or some similar nonsense.
I think the origin mostly in Jews being 'different'. It is a human trait to dislike those who are different. To Christians, Jews also have a bad name because "they" killed Jesus. Add to that the fact that Jews throughout history have often been wealthy, occupied influentual positions, had different and (to most non-Jews) mysterious customs and rituals and tend to stick together as small but well-organised groups, et voila: the perfect target for conspiracies.


In the modern times, added to this is the behaviour of Israel, which sometimes borders on fascism with its seeming disregard for non-Jewish (read: Palestinian) lives.


Personally, I think it does not matter whether Jews stay in Europe or go to Israel. Here they may be target in antisemite attacks by muslims and nationalists, but in Israel there is always the risk of war.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/11 01:21:51


Post by: Asherian Command


What why would the jews need to leave europe?


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/11 01:25:23


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Asherian Command wrote:
What why would the jews need to leave europe?
Because certain groups in Europe don't like them.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/11 01:27:33


Post by: Asherian Command


 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Asherian Command wrote:
What why would the jews need to leave europe?
Because certain groups in Europe don't like them.


Well too bad. Thats pretty stupid to think that is an okay thought. If you want to mass exodus anyone at least exodus the blue people. Man. Screw the blue people.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/11 01:35:03


Post by: Wyrmalla


 Soladrin wrote:
 Soteks Prophet wrote:
The question that needs to be asked is why, throughout all of human history, have the Jews been reviled?

What do they do, or evoke from their neighbours that makes them hated?


Having a bad name in other fairy tale books.


If the discussion I overheard two Christians having yesterday is anything to go by, then yup that'll be it ("Jews killed Jesus!" ). These heavily edited, biased and in part fictional texts that people are taught to base their lives around tell them what to think, and even with revisionism they're still hardly PC. Though obviously that's just a part of the issue, culturally similar views develop.

A fear of the other and how easy it is to jump on the scapegoat (coincidentally coming from a Hebrew word) bandwagon when its being going on for so long. If it weren't the Jews then it'd be some other group that people needed to blame their problems on.

Heh, though on the subject of my own witnessing of antisemitism, I think I'll make a game of counting all the swastikas I see at uni tomorrow. Funnily enough I don't see much anti-Muslim or immigration graffiti. A swastika's easy to draw and the slurs uninventive, but for the idiots that scrawl those things anything more is probably a stretch.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/11 03:16:31


Post by: generalgrog


 Wyrmalla wrote:
 Soladrin wrote:
 Soteks Prophet wrote:
The question that needs to be asked is why, throughout all of human history, have the Jews been reviled?

What do they do, or evoke from their neighbours that makes them hated?


Having a bad name in other fairy tale books.


If the discussion I overheard two Christians having yesterday is anything to go by, then yup that'll be it ("Jews killed Jesus!" ). These heavily edited, biased and in part fictional texts that people are taught to base their lives around tell them what to think, and even with revisionism they're still hardly PC. Though obviously that's just a part of the issue, culturally similar views develop.

A fear of the other and how easy it is to jump on the scapegoat (coincidentally coming from a Hebrew word) bandwagon when its being going on for so long. If it weren't the Jews then it'd be some other group that people needed to blame their problems on.

Heh, though on the subject of my own witnessing of antisemitism, I think I'll make a game of counting all the swastikas I see at uni tomorrow. Funnily enough I don't see much anti-Muslim or immigration graffiti. A swastika's easy to draw and the slurs uninventive, but for the idiots that scrawl those things anything more is probably a stretch.


This thread was going so well until..the above ignorance.

The crucifixion of Jesus is a historical fact, attested to by not only Christian, but Jewish and Roman historians.

The historical fact is that Jesus was killed by the Romans, at the behest of the Jews. So historically, gentiles and Jews had a hand in the death of Jesus. Which by the way, is exactly what the bible teaches... that all people had a hand in his death, because if you believe the teaching of the Bible then you realize that he died for our sins..(all of our sins, jew and gentile). We all crucified Him.

At least that's what I believe the bible teaches.

GG


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/11 03:38:06


Post by: RaptorusRex


Is it time for the Smurfs to leave Macragge?


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/11 06:16:58


Post by: Bran Dawri


 Grey Templar wrote:

Yes, it was tied to religion in the past. But only so far as the religion had a huge impact on the culture in the past. Its no longer tied to the religion proper. Today its the generic culture.


Bollocks. At least in the Netherlands. I don't know about France, but I'm pretty sure Germany is similar to us in this regard.
Antisemitism is not even remotely the generic culture here outside of fringe groups like neo-nazi's and (possibly) radical muslims. Anti-Islamism is the xenophobia-du-jour for people looking to blame an outside group for their own failures these days.

As to the soccer thing, I believe the chanting there is because the team that is being slandered (well, insofar as being called a jew can be considered slander) with these calls hails from Amsterdam, a city with a historically rather large Jewish population. (I have no idea how things are in that regard today, nor am I particularly interested.)


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/11 08:25:14


Post by: stanman


 Soteks Prophet wrote:
The question that needs to be asked is why, throughout all of human history, have the Jews been reviled?

What do they do, or evoke from their neighbours that makes them hated?


It's the hair. Everyone is super jealous that they can grow a proper Jew-fro, just like everyone is also jealous of the Afro. The rest of the world is hating on the fact that they can't have such superfly hair.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/11 08:32:07


Post by: Ouze


 Grey Templar wrote:
Liberalism isn't exactly helping. Liberal thought is currently heavily biased to the group responsible for the most backward thinking and discrimination in the world right now.


Well said. When I think of the most backward, hateful regimes in the world, they are invariably bastions of liberalism like North Korea, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, and so on.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/11 08:35:26


Post by: reds8n


 Grey Templar wrote:


Liberalism isn't exactly helping. Liberal thought is currently heavily biased to the group responsible for the most backward thinking and discrimination in the world right now.



Liberal thought is biased towards the Republican party, who knew !?

It's odd about the football thing.

We have a similar (ish) thing over here with Spurs


http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/football-why-tottenham-and-ajax-fans-have-a-jewish-identity-a-926095.html

http://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/news/y-word-consultation-update-210314/


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/11 09:42:19


Post by: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl


Short answer to OP question: no.

If you are a Jew in France, you should be more afraid of dying in a car accident, or from cancer, or… than from a terrorist attack, because those are statistically way, way more likely. You do however have a bigger chance of being a target, which raise it from basically negligible to basically negligible but a little bigger.


 Soteks Prophet wrote:
The question that needs to be asked is why, throughout all of human history, have the Jews been reviled?

What do they do, or evoke from their neighbours that makes them hated?

Well, first they are a minority, second they were successful in showing the world the hatred they were subjected to. Other minorities suffered a similar amount of hate but did not get a comparable exposure.
There is nothing “special” about the Jews justifying this hatred.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/11 10:47:17


Post by: Hivefleet Oblivion


 LordofHats wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:
It really had very little to do with religion and more to do with bankers being viewed as scum. You didn't have to be religious to not like being screwed over. It has some religious cause on top of it, but it was mostly environmental.


That's oversimplifying it (and white washing). Blaming Jews for killing Jesus was quite popular among Christians in the Early Modern period. In the Enlightenment Era, where Western Exceptionalism was inherently tied to Christianity, looking at Jews as both an inferior race riding the greatness of proper Europeans and as having an inferior religion was also very common.

It is impossible to completely separate European antisemitism from Christianity. It's an ugly reality, but it's reality. It is part of the cultural past and thus transitively part of the cultural present.


The growth of anti-Semitism is horrible - but rather fascinating.

There's been new research showing the origins of how Judas was described in the Gospels as a Jew. Of course, all the other disciples and Jesus were jewish too, but Judas was the one singled out. In the earlier documents, and certainly in the letters of St Paul, Judas was not demonized, nor described as jewish. The story of Judas as the villain was worked up later; It seems the gospels were written, circa 60AD, at a time when the early Christian church was trying to separate itelf from, and establish dominance over, their main monotheistic rival, Judaism. Hence anti-Semitism was given a big boost by the early Christian church.

The Russian Tsars were big factors in the growth of anti-Semitism, incidentally; the fake document The Protocols of the Elders of ZIon, used for much anti-Jewish propaganda, even recently by the Iranian regime, was probably funded by Nicholas II. Hitler thought it was genuine.

I've just read Kershaw's two volume Hitler biog; he was not Catholic, indeed the Nazis set out to break the power of the Catholic church. Nor was he vegetarian (he ate sausages). I wouldn't even say he loved animals - when he attempted to impress women, he'd do so by beating his dogs.

re the current reference; there is real truth in it, and it worries me, especially the fact that jews feel endangered in France. But the toxic mix in society isn't just caused by the growth of intolerant Islam - it's also fired by anti-Arab racism, too, sponsored by Western governments. Those who launched 9/11 seem to have achieved their aims of destabilisation and sectarian conflict, just as did the assassins of Franz Ferdinand, some of the few people to benefit from World War 1.

Of course, what's ludicrous is that Hitler posted jews both as untermenschen, an ignorant Bolshevik rabble, but also as manipulative genius capitalists who controlled the international banking system. More ludicrous still is that many of those silly fantasies still exist, and are promulgated by modern European parties.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/11 11:07:45


Post by: Ketara


The Jewish emigration rate tends to be a reasonably good yardstick by which to judge the rise of xenophobia in a country. The emigration to Israel from France has held steady at about 800-2000 per year since 1965 through to about 2012. But in 2013? That went up to 3,000. In 2014? About 7,000 Jews left France for Israel. Last year, there were about 50,000 official enquiries from Jews in France asking about the circumstances surrounding the right of return. Crunching the number of queries compared to the number of emigrations over the last year few years, it's expected that around 15,000 Jews will leave France for Israel this year, according to the Jewish Agency. Many others still are heading to London and America, to the point where new synagogues are actually being established with entirely French congregations.

According to practically all recent polls, the majority of Jews (about 80%) no longer feel safe in France. The extreme left and right are on the rise, and with rising numbers of anti-semitic immigrants from the Middle-East, and a surge in the number of racist attacks (from rapes to murder to people spitting on them in the street), there is a feeling beginning to set in that France is no longer a place to bring up your children if you wish to pass on your Jewish heritage.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/11 11:35:58


Post by: Ouze


 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
Nor was he vegetarian (he ate sausages).


In Hitler's defense, sausages are delicious.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/11 12:04:55


Post by: djones520


 Soladrin wrote:
I'm sorry what? I'm going to just say I keep up with all the news in my country and this is not a thing here.


Might want to try to keep up a bit more.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/04/10/nazi-chants-at-dutch-soccer-game-expose-an-ugly-blot-on-the-beautiful-game/

It was a beautiful day for soccer in the Dutch town of Utrecht. Spring sunshine filled the stadium as the local team, FC Utrecht, kicked off against perennial powerhouse Ajax Amsterdam.

As the beautiful game slowly played out on the field, however, things in the stands quickly got ugly.

“Hamas, Hamas, Jews to the gas,” sang a section of the home supporters towards the fans visiting from Amsterdam, a city historic in part for its Jewish community. “My father was in the commandos, my mother was in the SS, together they burned Jews, because Jews burn the best!”

The anti-Semitism was caught on video and quickly circulated among Dutch media. FC Utrecht issued an apology as Jewish organizations demanded action by soccer authorities.


This was not a spur of the moment action. To chant something so utterly hateful... that's something deep in the psyche.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/11 12:15:25


Post by: Soladrin


 djones520 wrote:
 Soladrin wrote:
I'm sorry what? I'm going to just say I keep up with all the news in my country and this is not a thing here.


Might want to try to keep up a bit more.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/04/10/nazi-chants-at-dutch-soccer-game-expose-an-ugly-blot-on-the-beautiful-game/

It was a beautiful day for soccer in the Dutch town of Utrecht. Spring sunshine filled the stadium as the local team, FC Utrecht, kicked off against perennial powerhouse Ajax Amsterdam.

As the beautiful game slowly played out on the field, however, things in the stands quickly got ugly.

“Hamas, Hamas, Jews to the gas,” sang a section of the home supporters towards the fans visiting from Amsterdam, a city historic in part for its Jewish community. “My father was in the commandos, my mother was in the SS, together they burned Jews, because Jews burn the best!”

The anti-Semitism was caught on video and quickly circulated among Dutch media. FC Utrecht issued an apology as Jewish organizations demanded action by soccer authorities.


This was not a spur of the moment action. To chant something so utterly hateful... that's something deep in the psyche.


Good job reading my posts, I already mentioned the soccer thing. And it's been covered by multiple people in this thread and a couple of articles as well as being something fueled by soccer Rivalry, not true anti-semitism. Nice try though.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/11 12:16:03


Post by: Orlanth


 Soladrin wrote:
 Soteks Prophet wrote:
The question that needs to be asked is why, throughout all of human history, have the Jews been reviled?

What do they do, or evoke from their neighbours that makes them hated?


Having a bad name in other fairy tale books.


So speaks that hater.
The rational response that doesn't involve taking a swipe at religion.


Jews have a hand in most of the baking in central Europe prior to the Third Reich. There is an argument that the defeat of Germany in the First World War was due to spiraling extortion, Germany was doing materially well but fiscally collapsing, a bit like the markets in 2008.
Jews cant be entirely blamed for this, not that that would stop Hitler, but Jewish bankers were a sizable proportion and a very visible one. They were blamed by the German people as to why Germany collapsed at a time when it was winning on the western front and had already won on the east.

Pretty much every anti semitic movement has had a fiscal core, even in the days of medieval catholicism. Religion is used as an excuse, just as racial purity was, but it isn't the actual cause.
Jews networked across Europe, which gave them a crucial business advantage, not thier fault, its natural to network with your own kind. Other businesspeople got progressively more jealous, as Jews also have a stronghold with the banking trade, at a time when Christians were forbidden under church law from charging interest, Jews became the banker of medieval Europe. Medieval Europe was no better at balancing the books than mdern Europe is, the major difference was that if a medieval Duke or Prince wanted to wriggle out of debt, he could get medieval.
It is at that time that the 'murderers of Christ' comes into it.

As it so happens this is not always the case. The Norman Kingdom of Sicily managed to make a multi faith balanced nation state n which Jews were actively encourggedto run the economy, Moslems formed the intelligensia and Norman Christians did the fighting. It worked for two centuries until the Papacy decided to 'clean house' and that had far more to o with medieval Italian politics than anything actually resembling religion. Moorish communities and Jews in Sain were integrated until the latter stages of the Reconquista, and the change which defind as a religious movement was a political power struggle at heart as militant Catholic is warred against itself not because of any doctrine but because there were multiple popes fr political purposes.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/11 12:18:03


Post by: djones520


 Soladrin wrote:
 djones520 wrote:
 Soladrin wrote:
I'm sorry what? I'm going to just say I keep up with all the news in my country and this is not a thing here.


Might want to try to keep up a bit more.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/04/10/nazi-chants-at-dutch-soccer-game-expose-an-ugly-blot-on-the-beautiful-game/

It was a beautiful day for soccer in the Dutch town of Utrecht. Spring sunshine filled the stadium as the local team, FC Utrecht, kicked off against perennial powerhouse Ajax Amsterdam.

As the beautiful game slowly played out on the field, however, things in the stands quickly got ugly.

“Hamas, Hamas, Jews to the gas,” sang a section of the home supporters towards the fans visiting from Amsterdam, a city historic in part for its Jewish community. “My father was in the commandos, my mother was in the SS, together they burned Jews, because Jews burn the best!”

The anti-Semitism was caught on video and quickly circulated among Dutch media. FC Utrecht issued an apology as Jewish organizations demanded action by soccer authorities.




This was not a spur of the moment action. To chant something so utterly hateful... that's something deep in the psyche.


Good job reading my posts, I already mentioned the soccer thing. And it's been covered by multiple people in this thread and a couple of articles as well as being something fueled by soccer Rivalry, not true anti-semitism. Nice try though.


I did a skim through, didn't see anything referring to this. And i'm going to call bs that it's a "soccer" thing. Doing so is just trying to sweep it under the rug. I understand that Europeans are slowed about soccer, but you don't get anything going like that even the most hardcore sports rivalries here in the US.

They were making a mockery of the systematic murder of 6 million people, and the enslavement of million more. If that is "just a soccer" thing, then you guys have zero fething stones to cast at us anymore.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/11 12:25:52


Post by: Soladrin


 djones520 wrote:
 Soladrin wrote:
 djones520 wrote:
 Soladrin wrote:
I'm sorry what? I'm going to just say I keep up with all the news in my country and this is not a thing here.


Might want to try to keep up a bit more.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/04/10/nazi-chants-at-dutch-soccer-game-expose-an-ugly-blot-on-the-beautiful-game/

It was a beautiful day for soccer in the Dutch town of Utrecht. Spring sunshine filled the stadium as the local team, FC Utrecht, kicked off against perennial powerhouse Ajax Amsterdam.

As the beautiful game slowly played out on the field, however, things in the stands quickly got ugly.

“Hamas, Hamas, Jews to the gas,” sang a section of the home supporters towards the fans visiting from Amsterdam, a city historic in part for its Jewish community. “My father was in the commandos, my mother was in the SS, together they burned Jews, because Jews burn the best!”

The anti-Semitism was caught on video and quickly circulated among Dutch media. FC Utrecht issued an apology as Jewish organizations demanded action by soccer authorities.




This was not a spur of the moment action. To chant something so utterly hateful... that's something deep in the psyche.


Good job reading my posts, I already mentioned the soccer thing. And it's been covered by multiple people in this thread and a couple of articles as well as being something fueled by soccer Rivalry, not true anti-semitism. Nice try though.


I did a skim through, didn't see anything referring to this. And i'm going to call bs that it's a "soccer" thing. Doing so is just trying to sweep it under the rug. I understand that Europeans are slowed about soccer, but you don't get anything going like that even the most hardcore sports rivalries here in the US.

They were making a mockery of the systematic murder of 6 million people, and the enslavement of million more. If that is "just a soccer" thing, then you guys have zero fething stones to cast at us anymore.


Wait, mockery of the holocaust is new to you? Anyway, you can call bs all you like, that doesn't change it from being a soccer thing. Mind you, I don't agree with it either and I think sports fanatics should all feth off anyway.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/11 12:33:16


Post by: George Spiggott


 Orlanth wrote:
Jews have a hand in most of the baking in central Europe prior to the Third Reich. There is an argument that the defeat of Germany in the First World War was due to spiraling extortion, Germany was doing materially well but fiscally collapsing, a bit like the markets in 2008.
Jews cant be entirely blamed for this, not that that would stop Hitler, but Jewish bankers were a sizable proportion and a very visible one. They were blamed by the German people as to why Germany collapsed at a time when it was winning on the western front and had already won on the east.

Germany wasn't winning on the western front when it collapsed, it had been on the retreat for almost three months straight,


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/11 12:35:33


Post by: reds8n


 Orlanth wrote:



Jews have a hand in most of the baking in central Europe prior to the Third Reich..



They certainly didn't loaf around you mean ?





Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/11 12:40:47


Post by: Antario


 Manchu wrote:
"It is not 1933. But could it be 1929?"

This is a long, difficult, and provocative essay -- and as an American, I found it to be totally shocking. I grew up watching Schindler's List, reading Elie Wiesel, visiting Holocaust museums ... "NEVER AGAIN" was effectively just as important to my moral education in public school as well as in private life as the Bill of Rights. I am probably not the only American who sometimes naively assumes Europe is pretty much like the United States ... when in reality, European countries may have more in common in some ways with (just for example) Japan. What I mean is, despite the significant prejudices that characterize American society, we do have a way of absorbing immigrants that doesn't seem possible for European nations. As Mr. Goldberg, the author of the essay, says in the video: The concept of a Moroccan-American makes immediate sense. But what is a German Turk?

The revitalization of anti-Semitism in Europe and its relationship to Muslim communities also living in Europe is therefore ... well, shocking to be honest to me as an American who was brought up on the moral truth summed up in that phrase "NEVER AGAIN." I really have trouble grasping that the question of whether the Jews should leave Europe can be a serious topic of discussion in 2015.

The migration of people from various North African and the Middle East countries (aka 'Muslims') to Western Europe has been a complicated affair and differs from country to country but it's hard to say it is typical in the way Europe absorbs immigrants. Immigrants from former colonies have integrated far more successfully and the same currently happens with the influx of Eastern Europeans. The closest US equivalent would be Mexicans in the south and that has had it's own issues.

France and to a lesser extent the UK are exceptions as both countries had a long colonial history with African and the Middle East but in other European countries Muslims were originally temporary migrant workers, basically expats, who were expected to leave after a number of years. Due to various events this did not happen, but the duality of their status still affects their position in society today. Stronger ties with the countries of origin through satellite TV and internet since the nineties has had a negative effect on integration and language fluency.

The latter leads me to disagree with Goldberg that the current antisemitism hails from Europe's past. Imo it's a result from the stronger influence of Middle Eastern mass (and social) media in which Israel, and Jews, are portrayed very negatively.




Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/11 12:50:18


Post by: treslibras


Not saying that there is no anti-semitism practically everywhere in Europe but the French situation is a special one. French big town banlieus are full of young muslim, more specifically, with maghrebian (north african) background, who live in bad conditions, very often in 2nd to 4th generation, with little perspective of making a good living or getting integrated into French majority culture. A lot of these young men naturally were and are very susceptible to the wrong preachings and a "US vs. THEM" thinking. And while there might only be a minority that resorts to actual violence, the anti-semitic "turths" seep through to almost all maghrebians.
In big parts of French big towns, maghrebians make up for 50% of the population, so antisemitic expressions are more common that in German towns, for example.
There were some cases of real anti-semitic violence from muslim extremists. (Attack on a school, the shooting in the Brussels museum)

Add to that there is an old antisemtic strain in French-catholic majority thinking, and the rise of the Front National, who granddaddy JM LePen is an antisemite if there ever was one (even if his daughter hates him for regularly sabotaging her attempts to bring the FN into the middle of French society), and it becomes more understandable why French jews might feel uncomfortable.

Still, between a country where some young arabs and old white French guys will slur at you, and a country a) where you can get bombed to death and b) that regularly bombs others to death, steals their land, and keeps them effectively in a state of apartheid, I know where I would raise my kids...

In any case, it is a) a unique French situation, because of the relatively big number of maghrebians and their failure to integrate them /isolating them in ghettos for more than a generation and b) the author is a known Zionist and anti-muslim activist.

Most other European countries' right-wing, anti-immigrant movements are anti-muslim nowadays, and sometimes acitvely seek solidarity with and from the jewish communities.
Last time I read something about jews in Germany it was some Israelian guys creating an uproar in their homeland because they spread the message "Leave Israel, come to Germany" (becuase the cholocate pudding was so much cheaper... I think jews are doing fine in our country, if all they worry about is the price of kasher chocolate pudding...*)

*not saying that we do not have important issues with Neo-Nazis and right-wing movements but generally, it's a totally different situation that in France.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/11 13:55:28


Post by: Medium of Death


This is what happens when you encourage massive amounts of immigration.

At least the Jews can go to a homeland that will look after their interests, no so great for those stuck living here when they leave.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/11 14:12:31


Post by: Kilkrazy


It is undeniable that there is has been an increase in anti-Semitism in Europe in the past 15 years.

There has also been an increase in anti-Islamism, anti-immigration generally (let's remind ourselves, though, that Jewish citizens are natives, not immigrants), and homophobia.

This is partly a resurgence of the kind of fascism that in the 20s and 30s was represented by Mussolini, Hitler and Sir Oswald Mosley, caused then and now by conditions of economic distress.

Whether Jews are in particular danger I don't know. The British experience is that anti-Semitic attacks have gone up from 931 to 1,168 but this needs to be set against a background level of 4 million violent crimes a year. Things seem to be worse in France.

However it obviously is a challenge to civilised society in all of Europe. The idea behind a modern liberal democracy with the rule of law and everything is to stop this kind of thing from happening.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/11 14:27:28


Post by: Medium of Death


Mosley's issue was with particular Communists who happened to be Jews.

That and he was against international finance.

He didn't want to fight the war because it would cost us everything and it did. Let's not buy into the revisionist idea that the war was fought to "save the Jews".

There is no resurgence of early 20th Century fascism. People don't even use the word "Fascist" in the correct sense. It's a catch all buzzword for "bad". It adds nothing of value to the conversation.

We have seen unprecedented levels of immigration brought on to effect political social/change and to compress working class wages. None of this was asked for by the British people. It's been tyrannously applied and has seen little benefit. It's perpetuated by globalists and those that value money above all. Champagne socialist and bourgeois bohemians.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/11 14:37:31


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


 Orlanth wrote:
It is time for Jews to leave parts of Europe.

Sweden for one.


Why?


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/11 14:50:41


Post by: NuggzTheNinja


 Manchu wrote:
Are you advocating ... like Jewish kids should go out in the streets and fight? Or what?


No, I'm saying that European Jews should hire (or find volunteers from the community to serve as) armed security guards for synagogues and other social gatherings. Were they in America, I'd recommend that everyone over there who felt the need obtain a carry permit, carry a handgun, and learn how to use it. In Europe that might be a tall order.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/11 15:15:59


Post by: Grey Templar


 George Spiggott wrote:
 Orlanth wrote:
Jews have a hand in most of the baking in central Europe prior to the Third Reich. There is an argument that the defeat of Germany in the First World War was due to spiraling extortion, Germany was doing materially well but fiscally collapsing, a bit like the markets in 2008.
Jews cant be entirely blamed for this, not that that would stop Hitler, but Jewish bankers were a sizable proportion and a very visible one. They were blamed by the German people as to why Germany collapsed at a time when it was winning on the western front and had already won on the east.

Germany wasn't winning on the western front when it collapsed, it had been on the retreat for almost three months straight,


I think he was referring to WW1, where I do recall that the Germans were enjoying a slight advantage in the trench warfare.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/11 16:26:32


Post by: George Spiggott


 Grey Templar wrote:
 George Spiggott wrote:
 Orlanth wrote:
Jews have a hand in most of the baking in central Europe prior to the Third Reich. There is an argument that the defeat of Germany in the First World War was due to spiraling extortion, Germany was doing materially well but fiscally collapsing, a bit like the markets in 2008.
Jews cant be entirely blamed for this, not that that would stop Hitler, but Jewish bankers were a sizable proportion and a very visible one. They were blamed by the German people as to why Germany collapsed at a time when it was winning on the western front and had already won on the east.

Germany wasn't winning on the western front when it collapsed, it had been on the retreat for almost three months straight,


I think he was referring to WW1, where I do recall that the Germans were enjoying a slight advantage in the trench warfare.
Not in the last three months, It was all down hill from mid July and got worse from the 8th of August (Lutendorff's Black day of the German army).


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/11 18:04:20


Post by: treslibras


 Medium of Death wrote:
Mosley's issue was with particular Communists who happened to be Jews.

That and he was against international finance.

He didn't want to fight the war because it would cost us everything and it did. Let's not buy into the revisionist idea that the war was fought to "save the Jews".

There is no resurgence of early 20th Century fascism. People don't even use the word "Fascist" in the correct sense. It's a catch all buzzword for "bad". It adds nothing of value to the conversation.

We have seen unprecedented levels of immigration brought on to effect political social/change and to compress working class wages. None of this was asked for by the British people. It's been tyrannously applied and has seen little benefit. It's perpetuated by globalists and those that value money above all. Champagne socialist and bourgeois bohemians.


For someone who complains about people derailing discussions with wishy-washy terminology you are using a lot of it yourself...


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/11 18:37:43


Post by: Medium of Death


 treslibras wrote:
 Medium of Death wrote:
Mosley's issue was with particular Communists who happened to be Jews.

That and he was against international finance.

He didn't want to fight the war because it would cost us everything and it did. Let's not buy into the revisionist idea that the war was fought to "save the Jews".

There is no resurgence of early 20th Century fascism. People don't even use the word "Fascist" in the correct sense. It's a catch all buzzword for "bad". It adds nothing of value to the conversation.

We have seen unprecedented levels of immigration brought on to effect political social/change and to compress working class wages. None of this was asked for by the British people. It's been tyrannously applied and has seen little benefit. It's perpetuated by globalists and those that value money above all. Champagne socialist and bourgeois bohemians.


For someone who complains about people derailing discussions with wishy-washy terminology you are using a lot of it yourself...


Two phrases? Two phrases that have definitions as opposed to "fascist" which is rather nebulous these days. Fantastic observation.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/11 19:14:41


Post by: r_squared


 djones520 wrote:
.......

I did a skim through, didn't see anything referring to this. And i'm going to call bs that it's a "soccer" thing. Doing so is just trying to sweep it under the rug. I understand that Europeans are slowed about soccer, but you don't get anything going like that even the most hardcore sports rivalries here in the US......


Unfortunately, in the past the hatred and rivalry between Football clubs in the UK was, and still is in some areas very real and vitriolic indeed. They wouldn't give a monkey's if the supporters were Yids, or any other ethnic group, it's almost irrelevant and only a convenient handle for their real hatred, that of the opposing team.
The passion, and fervent support is real, and God help you if you end up wearing the wrong colours in the wrong place at the wrong time. Lads have been stabbed to death and thrown from bridges for less. Their ethnicity doesn't even come into it.
However, it's not like the US doesn't suffer from Sports related violence, and racism, so I wouldn't get on your high horse.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/11 20:57:03


Post by: Frazzled


I didn't read the essay. Don't need to. They need to leave. This is not going to end well there.

Start a new life in the US. Find the ideal combination of TexMex and matsa balls!




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 reds8n wrote:
 Orlanth wrote:



Jews have a hand in most of the baking in central Europe prior to the Third Reich..



They certainly didn't loaf around you mean ?




Indeed. Texans learned our cornbread secrets from them, and went on to beat the Kaiser. We all remember Pershing's conrbread powered blimp bombers that successfully air dropped Wild Bill Hikock into Berlin and defeated the Nazis in 1918.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/11 21:42:18


Post by: Happyjew


I never did understand the whole "The Jews killed Jesus!" thing.
First, it was the Romans who did the actual killing. They just paid for the name. 40 silver pieces no less. Any good jew would sell out his own grandmother for 40 silver pieces, let alone someone claiming to be a prophet.

On a more serious note though. Has anyone noticed the similarities between what Jesus did/say and Deuteronomy 13?

The beginning of the chapter
1. \If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a sign or wonder, 2 and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place, and the prophet says, “Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them,” 3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.


So this man Jesus shows up, performs miracles, and basically says worship me (note I am paraphrasing heavily). Per the Old Testament, the Jews were obligated to kill Jesus.

That said, while I am Jewish, and do believe that a man named Jesus existed and was all about being excellent to one another, there are religious issues with him being the son of god and a direct father to son descendent of David (which is required for the Messiah).

I now return you to your original discussion.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/11 22:13:52


Post by: Peregrine


It especially doesn't make sense because according to Christianity Jesus dying was the plan from the beginning. God sent his son to die for our sins and allow us to get the salvation we don't deserve, so if Jesus isn't killed then the whole plan falls apart. So, if anything, Christians should be thankful to everyone who was involved in killing Jesus. But I guess it's an easy way to give the angry mob something to be outraged about, as long as you make sure that nobody ever thinks too carefully about their religion.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/11 22:15:59


Post by: Jihadin


Might have to break down and read Bill O'Reilly book "Killing of Jesus"


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/11 22:16:50


Post by: LordofHats


"The Jews killed Jesus!" thing.


People can believe any number of sillinesses if its suits them.

Specifically, the NT portrays a series of events in which, while the Romans were the executioners, the Jewish people and religious elite were the ones actually trying to kill Jesus. They're the ones who told 'lies' about Jesus to Roman authorities. The Gospels portray Pontius Pilate, as thinking Jesus was innocent of any crime, but sentencing him to death anyway because the Jews (specifically the Pharisees) wanted it. They chose to free Barabas (a notorious criminal and murderer) rather than Jesus when Pilate attempted to force them to free Jesus.

 Happyjew wrote:


So this man Jesus shows up, performs miracles, and basically says worship me (note I am paraphrasing heavily). Per the Old Testament, the Jews were obligated to kill Jesus.


This would make sense if Jesus ever actually told anyone to Worship him. In fact he never gave any such command or teaching (rather if anything, what is written about him discourages worshiping him specifically rather than God imo).

That said, there is a long running theory in regard to the NT. Namely that what we currently know about the Pharisees and their beliefs, wanting to kill Jesus doesn't make very much sense. In fact, the discussion between them and Jesus as described in the Gospels seems to run counter to what the Pharisees actually believed at that time period. First, their depiction in the Gospels shows them as being bizarrely uneducated about the Torah for men who largely dedicated their lives to the interpretation of 'the Law' and it's relevance in Hellenistic Judea. Really, baring the 'I was sent by God' bit, which never really made anyone popular with established religious authority, a lot of Jesus' teachings are much in line with what we know about Pharisee beliefs. There's very little reason to think they'd single him out like they did. Messianic holy men were commonplace in the Ancient world and Judea was not an exception. In his own life, Jesus would have been a dime a dozen. There's no reason to think the Pharisees would give a damn what some small time Rabbi was saying or that they'd be able to sway Roman authorities like they did.

Other evidence is that the tradition of releasing a prisoner during Passover, appears only in the NT. No other source ever mentions it (and given how much time Josephus devotes to the relationship between Jewish religion and Roman political authority in his works, not mentioning it at all is more curious). In fact, Pilates entire character in the NT seems to be the opposite of his historical person. Josephus and Philo describe a ponderous and rash man with no cultural sensitivity or patience whatsoever. He lost his job because he saw a bunch of pilgrims, thought they were rebels, and ordered in the damn cavalry to slaughter them.

This has lead some theologians to question the nature of how the Bible describes the lead up to Jesus' death. Specifically the theory posits that the Romans were the only ones who really wanted Jesus dead (exactly why varies a lot). Later Christians, the ones who wrote the Gospels, due to political realities that the first Christians faced in Judea, instead shifted blame onto the Jewish religious powers. One, to avoid their fledgling religion sparking the ire of Roman authorities who saw the 'Nazarenes' as too similar to the Maccabees, and two, because the relationship between the Jewish religious elites and the Nazzarenes had quickly become hostile in the second half of the 1st Century (which is confirmed in the writings of Josephus). It thus suited these early Christians to tell a version of the story where Jewish religious authority took the blame for killing Jesus rather than Romans cracking down on anyone with 'revolutionary' sounding religious rhetoric.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/12 00:31:30


Post by: Grey Templar


 LordofHats wrote:
"The Jews killed Jesus!" thing.


People can believe any number of sillinesses if its suits them.

Specifically, the NT portrays a series of events in which, while the Romans were the executioners, the Jewish people and religious elite were the ones actually trying to kill Jesus. They're the ones who told 'lies' about Jesus to Roman authorities. The Gospels portray Pontius Pilate, as thinking Jesus was innocent of any crime, but sentencing him to death anyway because the Jews (specifically the Pharisees) wanted it. They chose to free Barabas (a notorious criminal and murderer) rather than Jesus when Pilate attempted to force them to free Jesus.



Yeah, the Jews were responsible for his crucifixion. The Romans were only the instrument, and really as far as they were concerned they were just doing it to prevent a riot.



 Happyjew wrote:


So this man Jesus shows up, performs miracles, and basically says worship me (note I am paraphrasing heavily). Per the Old Testament, the Jews were obligated to kill Jesus.


This would make sense if Jesus ever actually told anyone to Worship him. In fact he never gave any such command or teaching (rather if anything, what is written about him discourages worshiping him specifically rather than God imo).


Not in the exact words, but he did repeatedly claim to be God. Of course God doesn't command worship, its not worship if its forced, he simply deserves it. But on multiple occasions Jesus was worshipped. Its actually how you can tell the difference between God and Angels in the scriptures. Before the siege of Jericho, Joshua was visited by a Messenger from God. By the fact that the messenger didn't refuse Joshua's worship, and the fact he used the title "commander of the armies of the Lord", we know that was Jesus. In contrast, whenever its an Angel the worship is always refused.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/12 07:41:20


Post by: treslibras


So, discussion closed, or what?

Because if american boy scouts start discussing their (americanized bible study version of) christian lecture, I think the topic "Should Jews leave Europe" is basically dead. Is it not?



Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/12 09:01:35


Post by: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl


 Frazzled wrote:
I didn't read the essay. Don't need to. They need to leave. This is not going to end well there.

Start a new life in the US. Find the ideal combination of TexMex and matsa balls!

Not sure they are safer in the U.S., with all your gun violence and bad eating habits and rabid wiener dogs!
 Happyjew wrote:
Any good jew would sell out his own grandmother for 40 silver pieces, let alone someone claiming to be a prophet.

Uh?


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/12 10:52:41


Post by: Da Boss


There are a few points worth raising with this article.

First off, Europe us not homogenous at all. Antisemetism might be on the rise in France but that is hardly Europe-wide.
Second, the antisemetism (which is present and admittedly rising) is mostly coming from a sizeable, loud and unpopular muslim community. The comparison to 1928 is invalid because even in France (the country with the most noticeable problem) antisemetic statements have been met with prosecution rather than approval from the state. It is hyperbole to suggest that the mood is the same.
Lastly, your comparison to Japan is not very good either. Education about the holocaust is extensive and detailed, and at least in my school the kids are beaten over the head with it. The majority of Germans I speak to are extremely knowledgeable and I have never heard an antisemetic utterance in my time here. Islamaphobic, yes, never antisemetic.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/12 11:15:17


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Any good jew would sell out his own grandmother for 40 silver pieces, let alone someone claiming to be a prophet.

Uh?


Judging by the fact that Happy points out that he/she him/herself is Jewish, I'd assume that's a cheeky joke on his/her own expense.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/12 14:00:57


Post by: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl


 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Any good jew would sell out his own grandmother for 40 silver pieces, let alone someone claiming to be a prophet.

Uh?


Judging by the fact that Happy points out that he/she him/herself is Jewish, I'd assume that's a cheeky joke on his/her own expense.

How much should I pay her/him to pretend she/he was dead serious and is completely antisemitic ?


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/12 14:04:00


Post by: LordofHats


It's kind of obvious Happy was being tongue in cheek with that comment


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/12 15:34:49


Post by: Kilkrazy


I didn't find it obvious and I am a native English speaker. I only realised when I read to the end of his posting and digested it all.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/12 15:58:39


Post by: LordofHats


Poe's Law at work


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/12 17:14:07


Post by: KalashnikovMarine


A very interesting read, and worthy of full and careful consideration...


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/12 18:00:59


Post by: Co'tor Shas


Really, whether or not "the Jews killed Jesus!" thing is correct, any grudge people would hold against people who are Jewish is ridiculous. It's like holding a grudge against the Babylonians. The only reason you are allowed to do that is if you play civ.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/13 01:05:39


Post by: Bullockist


 Happyjew wrote:


That said, while I am Jewish, and do believe that a man named Jesus existed and was all about being excellent to one another, there are religious issues with him being the son of god and a direct father to son descendent of David (which is required for the Messiah).

I now return you to your original discussion.


Does this include the female names listed in the lineage list? There are difinitely female names in there , but then again I thought Jews did the female lineage thing.

In regard to the OP - has anyone else thought that this discussion could be less related to conditions in Europe and more related to the opinion of certain political strains of thought that think that Israeli Jews will be outbred by Israeli Arabs and need to find a way to keep control of Israel politically *

*these people may or may not be bigots.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/13 08:50:26


Post by: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl


 Bullockist wrote:
There are difinitely female names in there , but then again I thought Jews did the female lineage thing.

Yeah, you are considered Jew only if your mother was Jew, regardless of what your father was.

 Bullockist wrote:
In regard to the OP - has anyone else thought that this discussion could be less related to conditions in Europe and more related to the opinion of certain political strains of thought that think that Israeli Jews will be outbred by Israeli Arabs and need to find a way to keep control of Israel politically *

I do not know, but as a French guy whose mother is Jewish, and who knows a bunch of other people with at least Jewish origins, I know no-one who feels threatened or even considered going to live in Israel. But I may be biased as only one of my uncle is a practicing Jew, and all the others are agnostic or atheists as far as I can tell.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/13 08:53:54


Post by: Torga_DW


My question is: assuming all the jews in the world decided to move to israel tomorrow, could israel support them?


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/13 09:42:29


Post by: Ketara


 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Yeah, you are considered Jew only if your mother was Jew, regardless of what your father was.


The Liberals and Reforms would disagree.


I do not know, but as a French guy whose mother is Jewish, and who knows a bunch of other people with at least Jewish origins, I know no-one who feels threatened or even considered going to live in Israel. But I may be biased as only one of my uncle is a practicing Jew, and all the others are agnostic or atheists as far as I can tell.


That's a fair enough empirical stance to take. It could be that your family is fortunate enough to live in a good area though, as the emigration statistics alone would seem to indicate that this is more than just a scare story.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/13 09:53:14


Post by: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl


 Ketara wrote:
The Liberals and Reforms would disagree.

Good for them.
 Ketara wrote:
 Bullockist wrote:

I do not know, but as a French guy whose mother is Jewish, and who knows a bunch of other people with at least Jewish origins, I know no-one who feels threatened or even considered going to live in Israel. But I may be biased as only one of my uncle is a practicing Jew, and all the others are agnostic or atheists as far as I can tell.


That's a fair enough empirical stance to take. It could be that your family is fortunate enough to live in a good area though, as the emigration statistics alone would seem to indicate that this is more than just a scare story.

There was a quote dysfunction here.
Most people from Jewish origin I know (inside or outside of my family ) are academics, so I guess I might be biased. But the thing is, if you do not talk about it, nobody will know you have Jewish origins anyway, so…


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/13 12:11:08


Post by: Kilkrazy


 Torga_DW wrote:
My question is: assuming all the jews in the world decided to move to israel tomorrow, could israel support them?


That is a rather unlikely thing to happen but if it did, obviously Israel could not magic up overnight jobs and accommodation for another 8 million people, doubling the current population. No country could manage such a feat.

Yet these putative migrants would not be penniless refugees. The Jews in Europe and the USA at least are very often well-to-do middle class people with education and property.

If there was a general desire on the part of all Jews to move to Israel, a plan could be developed to absorb them over a period of years, selling off their non-portable property at home to finance the necessary development in Israel.

Surely though the point of this whole situation is that Jews should not feel it necessary to move to Israel for their security and peace of mind? They should be as safe and happy in their own countries as anyone else.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/13 12:13:56


Post by: Ketara


 Kilkrazy wrote:


Surely though the point of this whole situation is that Jews should not feel it necessary to move to Israel for their security and peace of mind? They should be as safe and happy in their own countries as anyone else.


Speaking as someone who currently qualifies, the knowledge that the Right of Return exists is a comfort on the offchance everything ever goes tits up.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/13 12:34:22


Post by: Frazzled


 Ketara wrote:
 Kilkrazy wrote:


Surely though the point of this whole situation is that Jews should not feel it necessary to move to Israel for their security and peace of mind? They should be as safe and happy in their own countries as anyone else.


Speaking as someone who currently qualifies, the knowledge that the Right of Return exists is a comfort on the offchance everything ever goes tits up.


Now the question arises, should they go to Israel, which is currently in a war zone, or the USA, which is currently in ground zero for the Apple/Google/Walmart wars?
We don't have rocket attacks, but we lose our minds when Walmart has a sale.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/11/video-of-arizona-wal-mart_n_7046392.html


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/13 14:47:38


Post by: Bromsy


 Frazzled wrote:
 Ketara wrote:
 Kilkrazy wrote:


Surely though the point of this whole situation is that Jews should not feel it necessary to move to Israel for their security and peace of mind? They should be as safe and happy in their own countries as anyone else.


Speaking as someone who currently qualifies, the knowledge that the Right of Return exists is a comfort on the offchance everything ever goes tits up.


Now the question arises, should they go to Israel, which is currently in a war zone, or the USA, which is currently in ground zero for the Apple/Google/Walmart wars?
We don't have rocket attacks, but we lose our minds when Walmart has a sale.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/11/video-of-arizona-wal-mart_n_7046392.html


Amazon will stand triumphant!


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/13 15:08:55


Post by: Dreadclaw69


 Kilkrazy wrote:
Surely though the point of this whole situation is that Jews should not feel it necessary to move to Israel for their security and peace of mind? They should be as safe and happy in their own countries as anyone else.

They should be, but "should" doesn't automatically make it so.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/13 15:25:36


Post by: Bran Dawri


 Ketara wrote:


That's a fair enough empirical stance to take. It could be that your family is fortunate enough to live in a good area though, as the emigration statistics alone would seem to indicate that this is more than just a scare story.


You might have cause and effect reversed there, though. If more people are leaving it may be that they've been scared into leaving by said scare story.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/13 15:32:02


Post by: Manchu


What would Mr. Goldberg be hoping to accomplish by publishing a "scare story"? Keep in mind, it's the French government that reported over half of all racist attacks in France are against Jews. I appreciate the anecdotal evidence presented ITT but "I haven't seen it" does not amount to "it isn't a problem."


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/13 15:47:40


Post by: Kilkrazy


 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
 Kilkrazy wrote:
Surely though the point of this whole situation is that Jews should not feel it necessary to move to Israel for their security and peace of mind? They should be as safe and happy in their own countries as anyone else.

They should be, but "should" doesn't automatically make it so.


Of course not. That is why we should all be concerned about the points raised in the original article.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/13 15:51:26


Post by: squidhills


 Manchu wrote:
squidhills wrote:
Presumably to Israel, which is surrounded by countries where everybody hates them.
In the video, Leon Wieseltier calls this cheap irony. I think I would just call it a cheap shot.


If you mean a cheap shot against Jews in general; it wasn't meant as one.

If you mean a cheap shot against the author and the "point" he is trying to make; then yes, absolutely. And I'd do it again.

The article tries to make the argument that Europe hates all the Jews, when it really looks like France is the only country with a noticeable rise of anti-Semitic hate crimes. And, as any German or Itallian will happily tell you, while France is in Europe, it isn't all of Europe. It proposes a solution that amounts to "move away from a country that hates you to a country that all it's neighboors hate (and regularly attack with fething rockets)" as the only solution, when a better one might be to confront the racism in the country(s) that Jews already live in. Yes, immigrant Muslim populations are showing more and more radicalization among their youth. So address that issue, instead of running away from it (to a part of the world that invented radicalized Muslim youth). Engage with your neighbors, push for action from the government, pull a Palin on Le Penn and make her such a laughingstock that National Front never gets another vote. It's your home; fight for it. You didn't hear the Irish immigrants in the 19th century US saying "people are mean to us and violence against us is commonplace--- let's all run back to Ireland" (ok, a few did... but the overwhelming majority didn't). Instead, they said "feth you, donkey cave! I live here, now! This is my country too!"

Instead of running off to Israel when anti-Semitism starts to rear it's ugly, ugly head, French Jews (and Itallian Jews, and Swiss Jews, and German Jews, and American Jews, and everybody else) need to plant their feet firmly on the ground and fight it out. If you want to live somewhere, you need to be willing to fight for it.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/13 15:58:53


Post by: Manchu


I would highly recommend that you take the time to actually read the article, as it highlights problems from across Europe and does not in any way conflate France with Europe.

The article also does not suggest that Europe's Jews should all move to Israel.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/13 16:09:49


Post by: squidhills


 Manchu wrote:
I would highly recommend that you take the time to actually read the article, as it highlights problems from across Europe and does not in any way conflate France with Europe.

The article also does not suggest that Europe's Jews should all move to Israel.


I'm at work, Manchu. I don't have time to read the whole article. I don't have time to read any article. I have just enough time to post poorly-informed, emotional rants on what I assume things are about because the internet runs on outrage. It's an imperfect world, but I make the most of it.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/13 16:10:52


Post by: Manchu


whywecanthavenicethings.jpg


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/13 18:36:43


Post by: Ketara


squidhills wrote:

The article tries to make the argument that Europe hates all the Jews, when it really looks like France is the only country with a noticeable rise of anti-Semitic hate crimes.


Funny you should say that. Apparently the emigration rate from Eastern Europe has skyrocketed as well.

As for Poland and Germany....well, there aren't really that many Jews left any more to emigrate.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/13 18:41:17


Post by: easysauce


Id be curious to see stats on which groups are committing these hate crimes against jews in france,


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/13 19:26:34


Post by: Frazzled


Its the Quakers. They're doing carriage bys all through Europe. Its actually a turf war between the Jewish gangs (the infamous Matza cartel), Quaker wise guys, and Mennonite mobsters.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/13 21:41:31


Post by: squidhills


 Ketara wrote:

Funny you should say that. Apparently the emigration rate from Eastern Europe has skyrocketed as well.


If that's true, I wouldn't be surprised. After all, the country that inveted the word pogrom is flexing it's expansionist muscles again, right next door...


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/13 21:56:20


Post by: Iron_Captain


squidhills wrote:
 Ketara wrote:

Funny you should say that. Apparently the emigration rate from Eastern Europe has skyrocketed as well.


If that's true, I wouldn't be surprised. After all, the country that inveted the word pogrom is flexing it's expansionist muscles again, right next door...
Your ignorance is astonishing.
The age of pogrom is long gone. It is not Russia Jews are afraid of, Jews are treated in Russia as well as they are in the West, if not better. There is many Jews in high government positions, Jewish businessmen and oligarchs, and in the east there is even an autonomous Jewish province where Jews enjoy special rights.
What the Jews are afraid of is fascist and far-right nationalist groups that are becoming more and more popular in many Eastern European countries such as Ukraine, Hungary, Rumania etc. (and admittely, they are becoming more popular in Russia too)
There is also economic reasons. After 1991, people hoped that economy would really improve. For the most part, this has not happened and people are disappointed because of it. Jews however can easily move to Israel to look for better fortunes there.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/13 21:59:15


Post by: Soladrin


 Iron_Captain wrote:
squidhills wrote:
 Ketara wrote:

Funny you should say that. Apparently the emigration rate from Eastern Europe has skyrocketed as well.


If that's true, I wouldn't be surprised. After all, the country that inveted the word pogrom is flexing it's expansionist muscles again, right next door...
Your ignorance is astonishing.
The age of pogrom is long gone. It is not Russia Jews are afraid of, Jews are treated in Russia as well as they are in the West, if not better. There is many Jews in high government positions, Jewish businessmen and oligarchs, and in the east there is even an autonomous Jewish province where Jews enjoy special rights.
What the Jews are afraid of is fascist and far-right nationalist groups that are becoming more and more popular in many Eastern European countries such as Ukraine, Hungary, Rumania etc. (and admittely, they are becoming more popular in Russia too)
There is also economic reasons. After 1991, people hoped that economy would really improve. For the most part, this has not happened and people are disappointed because of it. Jews however can easily move to Israel to look for better fortunes there.


HAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHA.

Yeah, and Russia also treats handicapped people well. Good one.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/13 22:07:25


Post by: Relapse


 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
 Ketara wrote:
The Liberals and Reforms would disagree.

Good for them.
 Ketara wrote:
 Bullockist wrote:

I do not know, but as a French guy whose mother is Jewish, and who knows a bunch of other people with at least Jewish origins, I know no-one who feels threatened or even considered going to live in Israel. But I may be biased as only one of my uncle is a practicing Jew, and all the others are agnostic or atheists as far as I can tell.


That's a fair enough empirical stance to take. It could be that your family is fortunate enough to live in a good area though, as the emigration statistics alone would seem to indicate that this is more than just a scare story.

There was a quote dysfunction here.
Most people from Jewish origin I know (inside or outside of my family ) are academics, so I guess I might be biased. But the thing is, if you do not talk about it, nobody will know you have Jewish origins anyway, so…



I wonder how many "closet Jews" there are, out of fear of persecution.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/13 22:27:28


Post by: Happyjew


 Bullockist wrote:
 Happyjew wrote:


That said, while I am Jewish, and do believe that a man named Jesus existed and was all about being excellent to one another, there are religious issues with him being the son of god and a direct father to son descendent of David (which is required for the Messiah).

I now return you to your original discussion.


Does this include the female names listed in the lineage list? There are difinitely female names in there , but then again I thought Jews did the female lineage thing.


According to Jewish belief (or tradition forget which), a child's religion is based on his mother. Of course it is also assumed that nobody marries outsdie the faith so every jewish boy marries a jewish girl (even if one of them is a convert).

The issue is two-fold, first according to Jewish belief, the Messiah will be a direct father-to-son descendent. Meaning, if, to get to Jesus you must go through the female lineage, then he cannot be the Messiah. The second is that when the Messiah does come, there are numerous events that are supposed to occur, none of which occurred with Jesus.


I also apologize to anyone who did not realize my comment about Jews selling out their grandmothers was a joke.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/13 23:11:42


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Soladrin wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
squidhills wrote:
 Ketara wrote:

Funny you should say that. Apparently the emigration rate from Eastern Europe has skyrocketed as well.


If that's true, I wouldn't be surprised. After all, the country that inveted the word pogrom is flexing it's expansionist muscles again, right next door...
Your ignorance is astonishing.
The age of pogrom is long gone. It is not Russia Jews are afraid of, Jews are treated in Russia as well as they are in the West, if not better. There is many Jews in high government positions, Jewish businessmen and oligarchs, and in the east there is even an autonomous Jewish province where Jews enjoy special rights.
What the Jews are afraid of is fascist and far-right nationalist groups that are becoming more and more popular in many Eastern European countries such as Ukraine, Hungary, Rumania etc. (and admittely, they are becoming more popular in Russia too)
There is also economic reasons. After 1991, people hoped that economy would really improve. For the most part, this has not happened and people are disappointed because of it. Jews however can easily move to Israel to look for better fortunes there.


HAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHA.

Yeah, and Russia also treats handicapped people well. Good one.

On the issue of treatment of Jews and racism, you Dutchmen are like the pot telling the kettle he is black. It is in the Netherlands, not Russia, that some schools can't even teach about the Holocaust anymore because students will get outraged at the "Jewish bs". Now I am not saying that Russia is free from antisemitism (far from it), but in general, Jews in Russia are treated just as well as they are in the Netherlands or other Western countries.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/13 23:36:45


Post by: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl


Relapse wrote:
I wonder how many "closet Jews" there are, out of fear of persecution.

I am not a closet Jew, and neither are my friend. It is just people cannot tell if someone on the street is a (non-practicing) Jew, unlike, say, an Arab, where they can guess.
I noticed a good way to tell that someone was Jewish when I was at the École Normale Supérieure: if someone tells a lot of antisemitic joke, he/she usually consider himself/herself Jewish . We got an example itt. People that just have Jewish origins but do not consider themselves Jewish, usually do not, though.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/13 23:52:45


Post by: Dreadclaw69


 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Soladrin wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
squidhills wrote:
 Ketara wrote:

Funny you should say that. Apparently the emigration rate from Eastern Europe has skyrocketed as well.


If that's true, I wouldn't be surprised. After all, the country that inveted the word pogrom is flexing it's expansionist muscles again, right next door...
Your ignorance is astonishing.
The age of pogrom is long gone. It is not Russia Jews are afraid of, Jews are treated in Russia as well as they are in the West, if not better. There is many Jews in high government positions, Jewish businessmen and oligarchs, and in the east there is even an autonomous Jewish province where Jews enjoy special rights.
What the Jews are afraid of is fascist and far-right nationalist groups that are becoming more and more popular in many Eastern European countries such as Ukraine, Hungary, Rumania etc. (and admittely, they are becoming more popular in Russia too)
There is also economic reasons. After 1991, people hoped that economy would really improve. For the most part, this has not happened and people are disappointed because of it. Jews however can easily move to Israel to look for better fortunes there.


HAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHA.

Yeah, and Russia also treats handicapped people well. Good one.

On the issue of treatment of Jews and racism, you Dutchmen are like the pot telling the kettle he is black. It is in the Netherlands, not Russia, that some schools can't even teach about the Holocaust anymore because students will get outraged at the "Jewish bs". Now I am not saying that Russia is free from antisemitism (far from it), but in general, Jews in Russia are treated just as well as they are in the Netherlands or other Western countries.

#whataboutery


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/14 00:21:08


Post by: Grey Templar


 Happyjew wrote:
h), a child's religion is based on his mother. Of course it is also assumed that nobody marries outsdie the faith so every jewish boy marries a jewish girl (even if one of them is a convert).

The issue is two-fold, first according to Jewish belief, the Messiah will be a direct father-to-son descendent. Meaning, if, to get to Jesus you must go through the female lineage, then he cannot be the Messiah. The second is that when the Messiah does come, there are numerous events that are supposed to occur, none of which occurred with Jesus.



Both Joseph and Mary were direct descendent of David, so that pans out. Also every prophecy occurred with Jesus. But that is off-topic for this thread.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/14 01:00:29


Post by: Ustrello


 Grey Templar wrote:
 Happyjew wrote:
h), a child's religion is based on his mother. Of course it is also assumed that nobody marries outsdie the faith so every jewish boy marries a jewish girl (even if one of them is a convert).

The issue is two-fold, first according to Jewish belief, the Messiah will be a direct father-to-son descendent. Meaning, if, to get to Jesus you must go through the female lineage, then he cannot be the Messiah. The second is that when the Messiah does come, there are numerous events that are supposed to occur, none of which occurred with Jesus.



Both Joseph and Mary were direct descendent of David, so that pans out. Also every prophecy occurred with Jesus. But that is off-topic for this thread.


Umm..no they didn't.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/14 03:07:38


Post by: Bullockist


 Ustrello wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:
 Happyjew wrote:
h), a child's religion is based on his mother. Of course it is also assumed that nobody marries outsdie the faith so every jewish boy marries a jewish girl (even if one of them is a convert).

The issue is two-fold, first according to Jewish belief, the Messiah will be a direct father-to-son descendent. Meaning, if, to get to Jesus you must go through the female lineage, then he cannot be the Messiah. The second is that when the Messiah does come, there are numerous events that are supposed to occur, none of which occurred with Jesus.



Both Joseph and Mary were direct descendent of David, so that pans out. Also every prophecy occurred with Jesus. But that is off-topic for this thread.


Umm..no they didn't.


I always wonder which messiah Jesus was supposed to be the Davidian or the AAron based one? He clearly didn't fit the Davidian ones list of tasks to achieve and seems to fit the role of the priest messiah more, then again the Jews didn't accept him so it's all a moot point. I just never understand why the Davidian lineage of Jesus is pointed out when he never lead the Jews out from under their oppressors ect.

Oh yeah, Russia is a bad place and is always worse than other parts of Europe.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/14 03:13:21


Post by: Grey Templar


 Ustrello wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:
 Happyjew wrote:
h), a child's religion is based on his mother. Of course it is also assumed that nobody marries outsdie the faith so every jewish boy marries a jewish girl (even if one of them is a convert).

The issue is two-fold, first according to Jewish belief, the Messiah will be a direct father-to-son descendent. Meaning, if, to get to Jesus you must go through the female lineage, then he cannot be the Messiah. The second is that when the Messiah does come, there are numerous events that are supposed to occur, none of which occurred with Jesus.



Both Joseph and Mary were direct descendent of David, so that pans out. Also every prophecy occurred with Jesus. But that is off-topic for this thread.


Umm..no they didn't.


http://www.jewsforjesus.org/publications/issues/v05-n06/genealogy


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/14 03:49:43


Post by: Ustrello


 Bullockist wrote:
 Ustrello wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:
 Happyjew wrote:
h), a child's religion is based on his mother. Of course it is also assumed that nobody marries outsdie the faith so every jewish boy marries a jewish girl (even if one of them is a convert).

The issue is two-fold, first according to Jewish belief, the Messiah will be a direct father-to-son descendent. Meaning, if, to get to Jesus you must go through the female lineage, then he cannot be the Messiah. The second is that when the Messiah does come, there are numerous events that are supposed to occur, none of which occurred with Jesus.



Both Joseph and Mary were direct descendent of David, so that pans out. Also every prophecy occurred with Jesus. But that is off-topic for this thread.


Umm..no they didn't.


I always wonder which messiah Jesus was supposed to be the Davidian or the AAron based one? He clearly didn't fit the Davidian ones list of tasks to achieve and seems to fit the role of the priest messiah more, then again the Jews didn't accept him so it's all a moot point. I just never understand why the Davidian lineage of Jesus is pointed out when he never lead the Jews out from under their oppressors ect.

Oh yeah, Russia is a bad place and is always worse than other parts of Europe.


If it is the messiah for the jews jesus did not come close to fitting the bill, if anything it was Kokhba that came the closest.

Edit: Got my names mixed up


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/14 04:08:21


Post by: Ciciro


I find it funny how western European countries which make fun of America as being backwards are now becoming more right-wing and anti-Semitic.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/14 06:59:52


Post by: Bran Dawri


 Iron_Captain wrote:

On the issue of treatment of Jews and racism, you Dutchmen are like the pot telling the kettle he is black. It is in the Netherlands, not Russia, that some schools can't even teach about the Holocaust anymore because students will get outraged at the "Jewish bs". Now I am not saying that Russia is free from antisemitism (far from it), but in general, Jews in Russia are treated just as well as they are in the Netherlands or other Western countries.



Wrong. I have no idea about the situation in Russia, so I won't comment, but in the Netherlands in some schools some children become unruly (if reports are to believed mostly young muslims) when the Holocaust is taught as what is taught about it in the class is different from what their parents taught them. The schools, however, do still teach them about the Holocaust, and actively (with varying degrees of success) try to counter the ideas put in the kids' heads by their parents.
Not to mention that voices and efforts are being raised to counter this growing antisemitism, so what exactly was the problem again?

That's called integration, and it's how the system is supposed to work. Eventually. It is a slow process.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/14 08:18:00


Post by: r_squared


 Ciciro wrote:
I find it funny how western European countries which make fun of America as being backwards are now becoming more right-wing and anti-Semitic.


Again, I don't think anyone can start getting on their high horse about any form of racism or violence in other parts of the world. There is plenty of that everywhere. America is not immune to racism, anti-Semitism and radicalism.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/14 17:51:15


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Soladrin wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
squidhills wrote:
 Ketara wrote:

Funny you should say that. Apparently the emigration rate from Eastern Europe has skyrocketed as well.


If that's true, I wouldn't be surprised. After all, the country that inveted the word pogrom is flexing it's expansionist muscles again, right next door...
Your ignorance is astonishing.
The age of pogrom is long gone. It is not Russia Jews are afraid of, Jews are treated in Russia as well as they are in the West, if not better. There is many Jews in high government positions, Jewish businessmen and oligarchs, and in the east there is even an autonomous Jewish province where Jews enjoy special rights.
What the Jews are afraid of is fascist and far-right nationalist groups that are becoming more and more popular in many Eastern European countries such as Ukraine, Hungary, Rumania etc. (and admittely, they are becoming more popular in Russia too)
There is also economic reasons. After 1991, people hoped that economy would really improve. For the most part, this has not happened and people are disappointed because of it. Jews however can easily move to Israel to look for better fortunes there.


HAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHA.

Yeah, and Russia also treats handicapped people well. Good one.

On the issue of treatment of Jews and racism, you Dutchmen are like the pot telling the kettle he is black. It is in the Netherlands, not Russia, that some schools can't even teach about the Holocaust anymore because students will get outraged at the "Jewish bs". Now I am not saying that Russia is free from antisemitism (far from it), but in general, Jews in Russia are treated just as well as they are in the Netherlands or other Western countries.

#whataboutery


Actually, no. The original comparison was between Russia and the West, so a comparison between the Netherlands and Russia is not deflection.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/14 19:15:30


Post by: Soladrin


 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Soladrin wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
squidhills wrote:
 Ketara wrote:

Funny you should say that. Apparently the emigration rate from Eastern Europe has skyrocketed as well.


If that's true, I wouldn't be surprised. After all, the country that inveted the word pogrom is flexing it's expansionist muscles again, right next door...
Your ignorance is astonishing.
The age of pogrom is long gone. It is not Russia Jews are afraid of, Jews are treated in Russia as well as they are in the West, if not better. There is many Jews in high government positions, Jewish businessmen and oligarchs, and in the east there is even an autonomous Jewish province where Jews enjoy special rights.
What the Jews are afraid of is fascist and far-right nationalist groups that are becoming more and more popular in many Eastern European countries such as Ukraine, Hungary, Rumania etc. (and admittely, they are becoming more popular in Russia too)
There is also economic reasons. After 1991, people hoped that economy would really improve. For the most part, this has not happened and people are disappointed because of it. Jews however can easily move to Israel to look for better fortunes there.


HAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHA.

Yeah, and Russia also treats handicapped people well. Good one.

On the issue of treatment of Jews and racism, you Dutchmen are like the pot telling the kettle he is black. It is in the Netherlands, not Russia, that some schools can't even teach about the Holocaust anymore because students will get outraged at the "Jewish bs". Now I am not saying that Russia is free from antisemitism (far from it), but in general, Jews in Russia are treated just as well as they are in the Netherlands or other Western countries.

#whataboutery


Actually, no. The original comparison was between Russia and the West, so a comparison between the Netherlands and Russia is not deflection.


He's still wrong though.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/14 20:08:59


Post by: Easy E


Late to the party, but I am shocked to read that Europe the "Creators of Nationalism"(TM) maybe have a hard time integrating people not of the traditional national origin whether they be Jews, Muslims, etc.

That being said, as the modern world/technology accelerates it is only natural for people who feel like they are being left behind/can't compete to turn to things such as Nationalism and Religion more and more to provide a level of thought stability.




Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/14 21:50:54


Post by: Wyrmalla


Bran Dawri wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:

On the issue of treatment of Jews and racism, you Dutchmen are like the pot telling the kettle he is black. It is in the Netherlands, not Russia, that some schools can't even teach about the Holocaust anymore because students will get outraged at the "Jewish bs". Now I am not saying that Russia is free from antisemitism (far from it), but in general, Jews in Russia are treated just as well as they are in the Netherlands or other Western countries.



Wrong. I have no idea about the situation in Russia, so I won't comment, but in the Netherlands in some schools some children become unruly (if reports are to believed mostly young muslims) when the Holocaust is taught as what is taught about it in the class is different from what their parents taught them. The schools, however, do still teach them about the Holocaust, and actively (with varying degrees of success) try to counter the ideas put in the kids' heads by their parents.
Not to mention that voices and efforts are being raised to counter this growing antisemitism, so what exactly was the problem again?

That's called integration, and it's how the system is supposed to work. Eventually. It is a slow process.


I have a friend who's child experienced something similar at their school. An asian boy when being taught about the holocaust said a few things, but among them was "it happened to the Jews, what does that matter to me" (well as best a pre-teen could say that). His son then retorted, telling him they all should care. ...Cue the teacher scolding his child for not caring about the feelings of others.

So in that particular case the teacher chose to permit a child to stay segregated, perhaps preferring to not annoy one particular community. I think he eventually received an apology from the teacher over the matter, though he did say he was going to meet her with a few history books and sit there quoting them till she relented. =P

I'd also note that I know a guy who teaches the kids at the local mosque. ...He must be one of the worst racists I've met recently. Bar taking an immediate dislike to me when I mentioned I had Jewish relatives the guy came out with the line, " oh I don't eat Chinese food. Those people eat dogs" (and labored the point) today. I'd hate to know what effect he's having on the kids he works with...

Oh and I mentioned earlier in the thread I'd count swastikas at my uni. Fourteen, plus five slurs and that again in pro-Nazi blithering. Nout on the anti-Islam front oddly. Again its probably just easier to draw a swastika than it is to formulate anything original against another group. The usual nonsense tags trumps that crap many times over however.


Is it time for the Jews to leave Europe? @ 2015/04/14 22:14:02


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Soladrin wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Soladrin wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
squidhills wrote:
 Ketara wrote:

Funny you should say that. Apparently the emigration rate from Eastern Europe has skyrocketed as well.


If that's true, I wouldn't be surprised. After all, the country that inveted the word pogrom is flexing it's expansionist muscles again, right next door...
Your ignorance is astonishing.
The age of pogrom is long gone. It is not Russia Jews are afraid of, Jews are treated in Russia as well as they are in the West, if not better. There is many Jews in high government positions, Jewish businessmen and oligarchs, and in the east there is even an autonomous Jewish province where Jews enjoy special rights.
What the Jews are afraid of is fascist and far-right nationalist groups that are becoming more and more popular in many Eastern European countries such as Ukraine, Hungary, Rumania etc. (and admittely, they are becoming more popular in Russia too)
There is also economic reasons. After 1991, people hoped that economy would really improve. For the most part, this has not happened and people are disappointed because of it. Jews however can easily move to Israel to look for better fortunes there.


HAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHA.

Yeah, and Russia also treats handicapped people well. Good one.

On the issue of treatment of Jews and racism, you Dutchmen are like the pot telling the kettle he is black. It is in the Netherlands, not Russia, that some schools can't even teach about the Holocaust anymore because students will get outraged at the "Jewish bs". Now I am not saying that Russia is free from antisemitism (far from it), but in general, Jews in Russia are treated just as well as they are in the Netherlands or other Western countries.

#whataboutery


Actually, no. The original comparison was between Russia and the West, so a comparison between the Netherlands and Russia is not deflection.


He's still wrong though.

Yes, Just continue ignore things and pretend nothing bad ever happens in the Netherlands. Dutch people are often so self-righteous. Fact is that both the UN and the Council of Europe called the Netherlands out on the amount racism in Dutch society. Dutch people meanwhile, continue to be unaware of their own racism and pretend not to hear or downplay any messages that point to the opposite. Take the Dutch holiday of Sinterklaas for example: "What? Racism? Nonsense! It is just a children's holiday!" Here is a good article on it: http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21588960-debate-holiday-tradition-exposes-racial-attitudes-zwarte-piet-racism People that stand up against racism in the Netherlands receive death threats or are arrested. Yeah... When it comes to racism, the Netherlands is not any better than Russia. As for antisemitism, the situation is comparable as well, except that in the Netherlands most antisemitism tends to come from Muslims and leftists that hate Israel, while in Russia most antisemitism comes from far-right groups.