Definitely a much better trailer than the last one, but I'm still not convinced just yet, the Inception-style approach to magic I find slightly offputting, almost seems like a cop-out on going fully magical, trying to sci-fi it up a bit.
Still, it does look well-done, so I'll probably still watch it on release.
Hnng. Yeah, yeah, it's just a story, but I really hope they don't harp on with the "fortune cookie wisdom" justification for magic not making sense - all I can hear when the woman is doing that bit are homeopathy advocates, psychic frauds, and anti-vaxxers.
Alpharius wrote: Ultimately, it IS just a story, and as long as it is told well, and is entertaining, I'm sure it will be OK, and make for a good movie.
Because actually trying to really explain...magic?
Not a movie many would want to see, I think!
You wouldn't want to see a movie where someone describes the relationship between a fictional fifth nuclear force and the other four using copious differential equations? Even if it includes an early Chekhov's gun explaining how you can magically turn an integral S with a circle on it into a double integral? Spoiler alert, but the climax will feature an upside-down triangle and a letter with an arrow over it.
Alpharius wrote: Ultimately, it IS just a story, and as long as it is told well, and is entertaining, I'm sure it will be OK, and make for a good movie.
Because actually trying to really explain...magic?
Alpharius wrote: Ultimately, it IS just a story, and as long as it is told well, and is entertaining, I'm sure it will be OK, and make for a good movie.
Because actually trying to really explain...magic?
Not a movie many would want to see, I think!
You wouldn't want to see a movie where someone describes the relationship between a fictional fifth nuclear force and the other four using copious differential equations? Even if it includes an early Chekhov's gun explaining how you can magically turn an integral S with a circle on it into a double integral? Spoiler alert, but the climax will feature an upside-down triangle and a letter with an arrow over it.
I see that somebody knows their vector calculus, especially Stokes' Theorem
Alpharius wrote: Ultimately, it IS just a story, and as long as it is told well, and is entertaining, I'm sure it will be OK, and make for a good movie.
Because actually trying to really explain...magic?
Not a movie many would want to see, I think!
My point, self-evidently, is that I don't think endlessly recycling the "Confuicus he say, expand your mind silly science-man" trope is good storytelling. It's almost always a lazy way of avoiding having to lay down the rules by which your fictional reality operates, getting your excuses in early for when you later get stuck in a narrative corner and need a huge, implausible deus ex machina to save you from your own poor writing. Plus, nothing is "just" a story, narratives can and do reinforce each other, even fictional ones, and the narrative that science and scientists are closed-minded and only through completely belief-based pat mysticism can we achieve true wisdom/health/joy is not one that needs reinforcing even in small ways. It's also, IMO, a boring narrative simply by virtue of its ubiquity - a story taking a less homeopathic approach to magic would be welcome at this point purely for the novelty of it.
As for your latter point, it's rather contradicted by your first and, well, reality - one of the most compelling films that came out recently amounts, for a large part of its runtime, to "man stranded on Mars figures out how to grow potatoes with his own gak". You'd seriously argue that a film that treated magic less as fortune-cookie mysticism and more as an accepted part of reality and subject of academic study & experimentation, as a basis for well-understood technology, would be that difficult to write as a good story? Or even just a fictional setting where magic remained unexplained without the writers feeling the need to denigrate science as a shorthand for how totes mystical and mysterious and fey their version of magic is?
As for Bob's reply, learning new things is always fun - trolling is apparently cool beans around here as long as you couch your vacuous sarcasm in technical terminology. I'll be sure to remember and throw lots of physics terminology into any future posts where I fancy being an arse to someone who's taste in fiction differs from mine.
Marvel has a plan. They're not just going to throw everything at the wall and see what sticks when it comes to this film. They are very aware - hyper-aware - that they are entering the 'third' main area of Marvel after the technological and the cosmic.
They avoided making Thor magic, and made it super-duper technology instead. This time around it really will be magic, and that's an interesting place to go.
'Using the Marvel TSR rpg as a base, there is actually a very sophisticated method in which magic, reality, and the sci-fi interact. There is layers of realms, dimensions, and cosmic existence that are all interwoven. Granted it was probably all made up post-facto."
I think it was mostly found in the old Judge's handbook for Advanced Marvel Super-Heroes or the realms of magic books. I am too lazy to look it up."
Alpharius wrote: Ultimately, it IS just a story, and as long as it is told well, and is entertaining, I'm sure it will be OK, and make for a good movie.
Because actually trying to really explain...magic?
Not a movie many would want to see, I think!
My point, self-evidently, is that I don't think endlessly recycling the "Confuicus he say, expand your mind silly science-man" trope is good storytelling. It's almost always a lazy way of avoiding having to lay down the rules by which your fictional reality operates, getting your excuses in early for when you later get stuck in a narrative corner and need a huge, implausible deus ex machina to save you from your own poor writing. Plus, nothing is "just" a story, narratives can and do reinforce each other, even fictional ones, and the narrative that science and scientists are closed-minded and only through completely belief-based pat mysticism can we achieve true wisdom/health/joy is not one that needs reinforcing even in small ways. It's also, IMO, a boring narrative simply by virtue of its ubiquity - a story taking a less homeopathic approach to magic would be welcome at this point purely for the novelty of it.
As for your latter point, it's rather contradicted by your first and, well, reality - one of the most compelling films that came out recently amounts, for a large part of its runtime, to "man stranded on Mars figures out how to grow potatoes with his own gak". You'd seriously argue that a film that treated magic less as fortune-cookie mysticism and more as an accepted part of reality and subject of academic study & experimentation, as a basis for well-understood technology, would be that difficult to write as a good story? Or even just a fictional setting where magic remained unexplained without the writers feeling the need to denigrate science as a shorthand for how totes mystical and mysterious and fey their version of magic is?
And at that point, it's not magic. If you can analyse and predictably explain something, it stops being supernatural by definition, and becomes natural. Do you want midichlorians? Because that's how you get midichlorians.
That said, maybe you should check out Brandon Sanderson's Mistborn series. I've heard that has a very industrial / scientific approach to magic, so it is out there if you take the time to look.
I'm imagining that "magic" will be the interaction of alternate/higher dimensions, and the tesselated cgi is only visible in-universe to the ones who can harness magic, being what their brains see as they try to comprehend the dimensional interactions. Normal people might only (for the most part) see wierdos in costumes flipping and rolling around an otherwise normal world, until the inevitable explosions happen.
Kind of a Cthulhu-esque "seeing what man is not meant to see". Or maybe like the end of Interstellar.
Saw it last night with the family - it's a very visually spectacular effort. The humour was nicely played and Cumberbatch was good (although the accent was hard to take at times). Not overly impressed with Mads Mikkelson, though - more a cypher than a full-blown character.
Are a fair few similarities to iron Man in many ways -- tbf that's as much the comics "fault" there as much as anything else -- but -- like all the marvel films -- it is slick and holds together very well.
Once again though the villain is indeed a bit....... meh ...
never really seems to actually do much and his motivation is kind of smoothed over/dropped into the story with little impact.
Worth a watch though
Spoiler:
I thought they might have been a bit more subtle with regards to what gem was inside the eye amulet, but instead they come out and state it.
I thought it was a really good film up until the end. A lot more humour than I thought I'd see, though to be fair I was kind of expecting a Sherlock style performance as that's all I know Cumberbatch from.
Spoiler:
I don't buy for a moment that trapping yourself and an ultra powerful extra dimensional entity in a time loop is a good idea. If the two of you can't hurt each other, or you have the upper hand, maybe. Strange effectively trapped himself in a torture/murder loop, where he's killed/dismembered/etc over and over again, and has to relive it constantly. That's some full on cursed by the gods level hell- murdered every day and reborn the next morning (only faster!). Dormamu may not like the scenario, but I find it highly dubious that an eternal entity like that would break before the torture victim.
Kojiro wrote: I thought it was a really good film up until the end. A lot more humour than I thought I'd see, though to be fair I was kind of expecting a Sherlock style performance as that's all I know Cumberbatch from.
Spoiler:
I don't buy for a moment that trapping yourself and an ultra powerful extra dimensional entity in a time loop is a good idea. If the two of you can't hurt each other, or you have the upper hand, maybe. Strange effectively trapped himself in a torture/murder loop, where he's killed/dismembered/etc over and over again, and has to relive it constantly. That's some full on cursed by the gods level hell- murdered every day and reborn the next morning (only faster!). Dormamu may not like the scenario, but I find it highly dubious that an eternal entity like that would break before the torture victim.
It has never been subject to time, it must have been a terrifying concept to it
Formosa wrote: It has never been subject to time, it must have been a terrifying concept to it
Spoiler:
Well there's no real way to know how a timeless, ancient inter dimensional intelligence will react to something. But it understands not having something, wanting it, and that it can acquire it. I'm not sure how it could interact with out dimension and not have at least concept of time. Granted being caught in a loop would be scary, but Strange outright says he's the source of the loop. As a result, Dormamu destroys him. Over and over and over. And apparently Dormamu tires of killing Strange faster than Strange tires of being mutilated and murdered. And to be fair, being endlessly murdered must be pretty terrifying to Stephen. Neither one of them should like the scenario, but I believe Strange should like it far less.
It was good, but not great. I felt it was too similar to Iron Man, Strange lacked humility (he was basically Tony Stark meets House the entire movie) and villain was bit thin, even if Mikkelsen is always pleasure to watch.
But that aside, it was a good, fun movie with some depth and good casting.
Do I need to spoiler stuff? I'll do it just in case...
Spoiler:
Ok so the after credits scene with Thor. Have I missed something along the line or didn't we last know that Loki had replaced Odin and was impersonating him on the throne? And now suddenly Thor and Loki are on earth looking for Odin together?
I did think that and then maybe thought that Thor and Loki were in cahoots to keep the asgardians in the dark as to what happened with Odin whilst they both did their thing to try and find him.
So Loki and Thor fake Loki's death, Loki pretends to be Odin whilst Thor and Loki look for the real Odin.
I saw it and enjoyed it. This is going in relatively clean. The only pre-existing knowledge I had of Dr. Strange was that he was a big-wig magic dude from the Marvel universe. So no pre-conceved notions, or “they got that wrong” moments to bother me.
Overall, it was a classic origin story movie. And done well at that. Take a guy, give him power, introduce his world, friends, and villain(s). No idea how many easter eggs are hidden around, or foreshadowing. But it stood on it’s own two feet. I didn’t have to grill my more comic book savvy friends after the movie to figure out who was who, and what went on.
I saw it in 3D, which was probably a good call. While I mostly detest the tacked-on gimmicky nature of 3D these days, I think it helps with the reality-bending magic vibe of the movie.
I saw it today and I liked it. - A lot more than Civil War (which I really disliked).
Wasn't entirely convinced by Cumberbatchs accent either though. Some sort of cross between Harrison Fords and Greg Houses.
I didn't spot any real Easter eggs during the crazy space scenes. - I was looking for some Guardians related stuff.
I was really impressed that Bleeker's Street looked pretty much identical to how it was portrayed in Ultimate Alliance (and therefore I'm assuming the comics).
Overall enjoyable film, kinda wish I saw it on 3d - it could be one of the few films where's 3d is really worth it. But I couldn't find my glasses.
Won't be buying it on DVD or Blu-ray but happy enough to watch it again when it comes on TV.
Oh and there's a mid credits scene and a post credits scene.
I just saw the movie, and I have to say it was really good (like most of the MCU movies). The visuals were really amazing (if a bit trippy) and well worth seeing in 3D. Benedict Cumberbatch is a pretty good actor (I even liked him okay as Khan in Star Trek Into Darkness), and he did well in the lead role in this movie.
Spoiler:
I am definitely looking forward even more to Thor: Ragnarok after seeing the mid-credit sequence of Thor and Dr. Strange talking together. Also, if I've counted correctly, we've now seen 5 out of 6 of the Infinity stones. I wonder which movie will have the sixth one in it?
Overall a pretty solid movie, nothing for me that really stood out, but then there were no real awful moments either. Visuals were good. Acting was solid on the whole.
Spoiler:
How it ended with Mordo, was probably the weakest moment of the film "you broke natural law to save the earth and there's always a price" I'm leaving in a huff now. Then followed up by "I'm stealing your ability to use magic, because there's to many sorcerers, so I'm removing your ability to walk" because that's definitely the problem with magic users, using it to fix your disability
I get that he's unbending in regards to this, but the letting the big bad win just so you get to stand on the moral high ground because you're paying for someone else's breaking natural law, then you're an idiot. Which is basically what he was suggesting at the end.
Nevelon wrote: I saw it and enjoyed it. This is going in relatively clean. The only pre-existing knowledge I had of Dr. Strange was that he was a big-wig magic dude from the Marvel universe. So no pre-conceved notions, or “they got that wrong” moments to bother me.
Overall, it was a classic origin story movie. And done well at that. Take a guy, give him power, introduce his world, friends, and villain(s). No idea how many easter eggs are hidden around, or foreshadowing. But it stood on it’s own two feet. I didn’t have to grill my more comic book savvy friends after the movie to figure out who was who, and what went on.
I saw it in 3D, which was probably a good call. While I mostly detest the tacked-on gimmicky nature of 3D these days, I think it helps with the reality-bending magic vibe of the movie.
I went in with the same knowledge level: not much.
I was very entertained, much more so than Thor 1 and Iron Man 2 and 3. It wasn't GotG good, or Avengers good, but it was a solid Origins story with easy tie ins to the Avengers group, when needed.
I liked the first end of credits bonus, but not the second. It just felt wrong to me.
Spoiler:
Like when Sinestro grabbed the yellow power ring at the end of the Stupid ass Green Lantern movie. Why? That's such a leap for Dudly Do Right to take.
I thought they did a fine job setting up Mordo as a foil for Strange. The whole movie showed him as being inflexible about his outlook and in the end after finding out that his mentor and his friend had broken the rules he has decided that the proper response is that to many people are allowed to break the laws of existence so they must be culled to bring that number down to only those willing to, in his mind, do the right thing with power.
I quite enjoyed it and felt like the end was a good "character arc moment"
Spoiler:
Strange was arrogant because of his lack of failing, yet made the sacrifice to fail over and over again just to stall Dormamu. It occurred to me that eons could have passed with them reliving the same moment before Dormamu said "uncle"
Galef wrote: I quite enjoyed it and felt like the end was a good "character arc moment"
Spoiler:
Strange was arrogant because of his lack of failing, yet made the sacrifice to fail over and over again just to stall Dormamu. It occurred to me that eons could have passed with them reliving the same moment before Dormamu said "uncle"
Spoiler:
It also played into the character taking other avenues and not being purely a physical fighter. I heard someone complain that there wasn't a big, fx driven fight between them but that wouldn't make sense honestly.
Galef wrote: I quite enjoyed it and felt like the end was a good "character arc moment"
Spoiler:
Strange was arrogant because of his lack of failing, yet made the sacrifice to fail over and over again just to stall Dormamu. It occurred to me that eons could have passed with them reliving the same moment before Dormamu said "uncle"
Spoiler:
Except it's completely beyond belief that any human- even a hero- could endure being being mutilated and killed indefinitely. Think about it- Strange has to basically walk into his own, painful death, over and over and over in the hopes that the eternal entity he knows almost nothing about will not only tire of killing him, but we willing to give up the Earth- the thing it wants most in the universe.
Except it's completely beyond belief that any human- even a hero- could endure being being mutilated and killed indefinitely.
Spoiler:
This is where your flaw is as it seems not everyone believes that; it seems completely beyond your belief not everyone's.
Spoiler:
This. We have seen Strange endure a lot through this film. Relatively quick deaths in quick succession isn't really any more traumatic than the anguish we saw him go through with the loss of his hands, for example.
So if anything Strange is not the one enduring torture in this scenario. He's being killed, yes, but from what we see of him and are told I don't think he fears death but rather failure, to the point that he would do and endure absolutely anything to prevent such a failure. Dormamu on the other hand has absolutely no experience of failure or of being powerless and so finding itself in such a position would cause it far more mental anguish, confusion and fear than simply dying, no matter how many times, would cause Strange.
Except it's completely beyond belief that any human- even a hero- could endure being being mutilated and killed indefinitely.
Spoiler:
This is where your flaw is as it seems not everyone believes that; it seems completely beyond your belief not everyone's.
Spoiler:
This. We have seen Strange endure a lot through this film. Relatively quick deaths in quick succession isn't really any more traumatic than the anguish we saw him go through with the loss of his hands, for example.
So if anything Strange is not the one enduring torture in this scenario. He's being killed, yes, but from what we see of him and are told I don't think he fears death but rather failure, to the point that he would do and endure absolutely anything to prevent such a failure. Dormamu on the other hand has absolutely no experience of failure or of being powerless and so finding itself in such a position would cause it far more mental anguish, confusion and fear than simply dying, no matter how many times, would cause Strange.
Spoiler:
It's also believable that Dr. Strange set himself "outside" the loop, knowing that he may have to relive that moment over and over again. Maybe that's why he kept starting with the "I manna make a Bargain" line. So if he had no memory of each time he "died", then each time he would be starting "fresh" in the hopes that Dormamu would eventually tire of "time" He would obviously know that he had to relive it each time, but would have no memory of it, so could not be "broken" per se
I don't know if anyone noticed this, but there were a few easter eggs during the car scene. He was offered to do a back surgery on the hammer industries test pilot from Iron Man 2. I missed the rest on the list though so I don't know if they were all easter eggs or not.
Actually it is thought to be War Machine from Civil War from when he was shot down. The guy in that suit from IM2...well...he be dead. Well, most likely. The other mentioned was someone struck by lightning and that is thought to most likely be the new Captain Marvel.
Ahtman wrote: Actually it is thought to be War Machine from Civil War from when he was shot down. The guy in that suit from IM2...well...he be dead. Well, most likely. The other mentioned was someone struck by lightning and that is thought to most likely be the new Captain Marvel.
Nope, it's the Hammer guy. Hammer actually says in IM2 "the test pilot survived" when the clip is shown before Congress. It is also establishing the fact that Dr. Strange's story begins at an earlier point than the current crop of Marvel movies. He injures his hands during Iron Man 2, then completes his training and faces down Dormammu just prior to Cap 2, prompting Hydra/Shield to list him in the group of people they plan to kill with their super-killy helicarriers.
Ahtman wrote: Actually it is thought to be War Machine from Civil War from when he was shot down. The guy in that suit from IM2...well...he be dead. Well, most likely. The other mentioned was someone struck by lightning and that is thought to most likely be the new Captain Marvel.
Nope, it's the Hammer guy. Hammer actually says in IM2 "the test pilot survived" when the clip is shown before Congress. It is also establishing the fact that Dr. Strange's story begins at an earlier point than the current crop http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/quote/60/9022901.pageof Marvel movies. He injures his hands during Iron Man 2, then completes his training and faces down Dormammu just prior to Cap 2, prompting Hydra/Shield to list him in the group of people they plan to kill with their super-killy helicarriers.
So then how do we explain the director and writer of Dr. Strange explicitly stating that when Strange is listed in Cap 2 it is because of his potential to be a threat to HYDRA but that Strange himself was not yet doing anything magical, nor was he listed because of that. We have contradicting information being presented.
Not only that but the majority of things I've seen talk about it refer to Rody and not complete spinal destruction guy, so pretending it is some fixed idea that no one believes seems a bit off, or perhaps just wishful fan thinking.
So then how do we explain the director and writer of Dr. Strange explicitly stating that when Strange is listed in Cap 2 it is because of his potential to be a threat to HYDRA but that Strange himself was not yet doing anything magical, nor was he listed because of that. We have contradicting information being presented.
Not only that but the majority of things I've seen talk about it refer to Rody and not complete spinal destruction guy, so pretending it is some fixed idea that no one believes seems a bit off, or perhaps just wishful fan thinking.
There isn't enough evidence that it is Rhody. The terminology used when the injured man is brought up hints toward it not being Rhodes. "Test pilot" and "some kind of experimental power suit" don't lean towards "established super hero in a spare Iron Man outfit" as much as they lean towards a test pilot (as in IM2) injured in an experimental (as in IM2) power suit. As of Cap 3, Rhodes isn't a test pilot, he's the Iron Patriot who is an established super hero. Strange's aid would have been much more likely to say "we've got the Iron Patriot pilot who was injured in an accident" rather than something vague about a spinal injury in an experimental power suit.
And was the director and writer of Dr. Strange the director and writer of Cap 2? Because if the guy writing Strange isn't the guy who wrote Cap 2, then what he thinks about why Hydra wants Strange dead can be very different than what the writer of Cap 2 thinks about why Hydra wants Strange dead.
I enjoyed the film quite a lot. I thought the love hook was kind of weak, we're never shown that they love each other or were dating, more told it (like with the watch), then halfway through the film he says "I have to go" and that's it. Like, why even have her? She wasn't particularly relevant.
I thought Mordo was fine. Pretty cliche in the "You did the forbidden thing! I must kill you!" I mean, even Wong agreed "Yeah, we had to do it to save the world". Like, Mordo, we just saved Earth, give me a break. But I think he'll make a good villain."
Alpharius wrote: I saw it and liked it quite a bit - and I'm thinking I really should have seen it in 3D too!
I've been avoiding spoilers and threads about the movie for some time now, until I could finally see it - and I did last Thursday.
Did I miss the outrage over the fact that they turned Mordo black and then made him into a villain?
Idk about the black part, but Mordo's always been a villain.
And as the character is a "Do bad things to try to make sure worse things don't happen" kinda guy (or at least in this film) then Chiwetel Ejiofor is a good bet, he managed to pull it off well in Serenity.
Overall, I really liked the movie. I thought that the action and effects were well done and felt that I had actually gotten something out of watching it in 3D. The writing was pretty good and there were no really obvious pacing issues or bad dialogue. I really liked how Strange stuck to his principles and sought out alternative solutions to the final conflict instead of being one of those heroes that bemoans violence in their free time, the punches people until the plot is resolved.
My chief complaint was the use of the cape to serve as some comedy relief sidekick, but that only consisted of three scenes and did not take away from the rest of the movie.
I thought they might have been a bit more subtle with regards to what gem was inside the eye amulet, but instead they come out and state it.
Spoiler:
I think that it was appropriate. They have been introducing the infinity stones for several movies without really talking about what they are or what they can do. They are not really established as anything other than colourful rocks that maybe have powers. They need to build up an understanding of what the infinity stones are and what they can do so that when Avengers 3 arrives and Thanos goes around trying to use them, the audience will understand what is at stake.
Starting to name the stones and their powers is a simple step in that direction.
Alpharius wrote: Did I miss the outrage over the fact that they turned Mordo black and then made him into a villain?
I don't like that they made Mordo black!!1!One!!
*frothes at mouth*
*dies from mouth-froth*
Screw it (Still one of my favourite Shortpacked strips):
This one gets a solid C. With the exception of Strange wrangling Dormamu (which was the one time he got to be a clever wizard type guy), this was an unremarkable film with some major flaws. Unfortunately, whoever wrote the script (or maybe whoever edited the theatrical cut) did not seem to be interested in character arc or relationships. Seems like The Powers That Be considered those rather crucial elements to be filler between action sequences. And yet the only time I was flat-out bored was during action sequences - particularly when Strange and Mordo flee through the M.C. Escher-esque Mirror World, which was a bit like watching a hamster running on its wheel. All in all, entertaining enough to watch once and forget.
I would say the worst thing about the movie was that they had to make it an origin story.
I hope they do not need to do that for the Black Panther film. I haven't seen Civil War yet, so I am unsure how much they have revealed about his backstory yet.
Easy E wrote: I would say the worst thing about the movie was that they had to make it an origin story.
I think this could have been okay, had the people responsible for the film been interested in his origin. As things stand, they seemed to just want to get it out of the way except that it was the whole movie.
Easy E wrote: I would say the worst thing about the movie was that they had to make it an origin story.
I think this could have been okay, had the people responsible for the film been interested in his origin. As things stand, they seemed to just want to get it out of the way except that it was the whole movie.
They had to make it an origin story, due to Strange being a bit of a minor character. Besides, what was wrong with it? I think it was fine and about on par with the 45 minute animated film.
Easy E wrote: I would say the worst thing about the movie was that they had to make it an origin story.
I hope they do not need to do that for the Black Panther film. I haven't seen Civil War yet, so I am unsure how much they have revealed about his backstory yet.
You mean the story of BP, an arrogant guy that needs to be humbled before he can find himself as a hero, fully embrace his abilities, and dispatch a tomato can villain?
They seem to be showing more and more previews and regular commercials. I fething hate regular commercials. I just paid more fething money to see a show than HBO costs for a month. Do not show me a fething coke ad!
Place I've usually gone in the past has a solid thirty minutes of commercials and previews before the movie starts. I've literally timed it. Would show up to movies fifteen minutes last to skip the commercials and just catch the previews.
The new place I went to this time had no commercials at all, just some previews. Hell, they even have recliners with non-shared arm rests. Definitely got to be my new priority place to see movies.
Easy E wrote: I would say the worst thing about the movie was that they had to make it an origin story.
I hope they do not need to do that for the Black Panther film. I haven't seen Civil War yet, so I am unsure how much they have revealed about his backstory yet.
You mean the story of BP, an arrogant guy that needs to be humbled before he can find himself as a hero, fully embrace his abilities, and dispatch a tomato can villain?
You don't think we need to see that? I sure do.
IIRC his is a bit more of a story of petty Vengeance than actually doing heroic stuff. So basically arrogant guy, has terrible wrong done to hm, he has a training montage, gains wisdom, gets vengeance on tomato can villain that did him wrong.
Caught this one on rental. Meh. Seemed like it could have just been called Marvel Magic Hero. Arrogant supersmart white guy screws himself but through his tenacity, he outdoes everyone else who has been trying for longer and beats the bad guys + gets the girl. Pretty much a parade of clichés, melodrama, and spectacle. So par for a superhero movie.
The end was particularly dumb.
Spoiler:
A time loop where and extra dimensional entity with godlike powers repeatedly beats you down, yet never figures out to just take your stuff. Because, presumably, that gem is the only reason he is locked in.
Also, Mordo turning was kind of WTF, especially after Strange drove off Dormammu in direct contravention of Kaecilius' plans. I get he didn't like the violation of natural laws, but wouldn't that place him closer to wanting to guide or walk away rather than just say screw it, let's flip sides? And where does his new antimagic ability come from anyway? Mutant ability? :-)
Speaking of inconsistencies, why all the warning about messing with time when there were literally no consequences?
the time lock part - presumably, Dormammu understood what was going on and over the course of the various repetitions tested what he could do about it and eventually concluded that he couldn't unilaterally escape Strange's trap - hence eventually agreeing to bargain.
Regarding Mordo:
Spoiler:
His ultimate beef seemed to be fething around with time - so to your (very good) point about there being no consequences in this movie I think the idea here is to set up another movie where there are consequences and specifically Mordo will be the baddie.
It's just frustrating that studios are less and less interested in making complete, stand-alone movies as opposed to episodes in an ongoing serial.
Is it even possible to destroy an infinity stone? Because I'm pretty sure that is what would be required to cancel that time loop effect except the specific command.
I just find that somewhat unbelievable given Dormammu's supposed power level. Likewise, a being like that should probably be able to sense the stone and getting ahold of it would probably be a Bad Thing (see also Loki). Likewise, even a bargain would be insanely dangerous as such a being would inevitably build in some trickery. Deals with the devil don't usually turn out very well, after all (ask John Constantine!). Maybe even using that as a link to Mordo?
Instead, they do typical all flash/brute force villain thing.
jmurph wrote: I just find that somewhat unbelievable given Dormammu's supposed power level. Likewise, a being like that should probably be able to sense the stone and getting ahold of it would probably be a Bad Thing (see also Loki). Likewise, even a bargain would be insanely dangerous as such a being would inevitably build in some trickery. Deals with the devil don't usually turn out very well, after all (ask John Constantine!). Maybe even using that as a link to Mordo?
Instead, they do typical all flash/brute force villain thing.
Oh well, there is a gauntlet to fill!
A being with no concept of time and whose goal is to bring universes into its own time-free state is not really going to be able to use a stone which grants it control of time.
Is it even possible to destroy an infinity stone? Because I'm pretty sure that is what would be required to cancel that time loop effect except the specific command.
They deal with this in Thor 2.
Spoiler:
King Bor hides the Aether away because it can't be destroyed. I'd assume the rest of them are hidden in various places likely for the same reason.
jmurph wrote: I just find that somewhat unbelievable given Dormammu's supposed power level. Likewise, a being like that should probably be able to sense the stone and getting ahold of it would probably be a Bad Thing (see also Loki). Likewise, even a bargain would be insanely dangerous as such a being would inevitably build in some trickery. Deals with the devil don't usually turn out very well, after all (ask John Constantine!). Maybe even using that as a link to Mordo?
Instead, they do typical all flash/brute force villain thing.
Oh well, there is a gauntlet to fill!
A being with no concept of time and whose goal is to bring universes into its own time-free state is not really going to be able to use a stone which grants it control of time.
Why? Dormammu wasn't bound by time in his dimension due to it being nonexistant (which then gets into problems of if the stone would even work there....), it does not mean he is unaware of the concept or of rules of the various dimensions he brings into his own. Quite the opposite. He seems adept at manipulating at breaking the laws of dimensions to the point where he can basically consume them. As portrayed, he clearly becomes aware of the loop, indicating he understands what's going on and what the source is. What makes far less sense is why a being of this age and intellect continues to just smash Strange instead of say just restraining him and torturing him for information. He could drag one instance out into an eternity confident in knowing it would not hinder his attempt. Likewise, he would quickly realize that while Strange could be destroyed, the amulet containing the stone would survive despite Stranges annihilation. Every time.
It gets even trickier if D decided not to destroy Strange and continue. Since the loop triggers on his death, just incapacitate him and continue. Heck, he could even manipulate that as a reset point to learn and continue improving his plans!
Both Strange and Dormammu remember what happened in previous instances. The point of Strange's trap is to torture Dormammu. By setting the trap, Strange has already accepted the suffering he will undergo - that is a powerful edge over Dormammu. This is actually the denouement of Strange's character arc, too.
jmurph wrote: What makes far less sense is why a being of this age and intellect continues to just smash Strange instead of say just restraining him and torturing him for information.
Being a cosmic entity doesn't mean that one is super rational when angry. I imagine almost never being challenged means even a slight challenge to his authority would cause him to lose his cool.
I suspect what they meant when they said there was no time there, was that it was like some magic realm where no one ages and it's always Saturday. Clearly we watch time pass there, so it exists in some fashion. The fact that Dormammu recognises he's in a loop show he's aware of what came before and is able to accurately predict what will come after. He clearly has a sense of the progression of time. The issue becomes why Strange was able to endure the brutality of Dormammu's assaults longer than Dormammu could endure being looped.
Exactly Kojiro. I don't know how he was being "tortured"; at most, it was a minor inconvenience. I suppose he could have been angry, but keep in mind that this is a being that supposedly predates our existence and has plans that span into eons. I would think that he would figure out something really nasty, really quick. Like I said, he could literally just seize the amulet from Strange. Or do something far more insidious, like lock Strange into a spell, forcing him to mentally endure *his* worst moments, fears, etc. over and over in a single moment, perhaps making it look like the amulet malfunctioned, until he gives the word to break that loop. He could even go so far as to make it looks like he has yielded to Strange, the plan fails and D is absorbing everything. That would be super fun for a bad guy.
Heck, he could also just reach through space and grab the girl for the classic bad guy routine. Stop the loop, she lives; if not, it will not be you who suffers endlessly.....
Or just immobilize Strange (think permanent coma, or even a mental illusion that let's it look like Strange won, got healed, is back with his woman, etc.) and continue rocking. The loop won't trigger if Strange lives.
I didn't like the movie but the scene in question was definitely the best part. The whole point of the story was Strange's arc from selfish to selfless. In story terms, Dromammu is obviously the symbol of Strange's own character flaws. Hell, Benedict Cumberbatch even played Dormammu. Asking why Dormammu didn't act patiently and with self-awareness is like asking why Strange fails to act with patience and self-awareness at the beginning of the film.
It's not the nature of the sacrifice that I don't buy. I get it, Strange is being selfless and becoming a hero. What doesn't jive is his ability to maintain the sacrifice.
Imagine a soldier who, in a moment of heroism, throws himself on a grenade. Then he dies, painfully, shortly after. Heroic as hell. Now imagine some wizard curses the soldier, putting him in a groundhog loop at the moment of his choice. How many times can he do it? Remembering each time? Because that's what Strange is doing, except he's put himself in the loop!
It's also worth noting the idea is stupid because it rests on the assumption D will break first despite the massively one sided difficulty on Strange and utter ignorance of D's psychology. Let's take the idea of him having no concept of time at face value. Imagine Strange sets up the loop and, true to form, D simply doesn't recognise a temporal loop? Strange's plan rests on D's explicit ability to understand time, a phenomena he supposedly has no concept of that doesn't exist in his realm. That's a flawed plan by any stretch.
It isn't just a temporal loop though it is a temporal prison and loop, and one powered by the time gem itself so it isn't a weak cell that one can break out of. As for the pain endured by Strange, well, it wouldn't be a sacrifice if there was no downside.
Oh I'm well aware he's trapped. But again, that's not the complaint. The complaint pertains to the pain- the sacrifice as you describe it- that Strange is enduring, which is that fundamentally pain breaks people. When torturing someone there's a concern that the information obtained may not be accurate or useful, but that's not a concern Dormammu has. It's not 'talk and I'll end the torture'. It's simply 'end the torture when you want'.
In short it seems like a heroic choice, and it is, but by virtue of making it ongoing it's not something any mortal can feasibly maintain.
The other problem with the scene is that after some time Strange appears bored by the interaction, as if it's tedious. That I think hurts it more than anything else because if this is merely tedious, it's not heroic. It comes across like Colossus facing down a street thug- swing away all you like, sooner or later you'll give up. My mere presence will win me this battle. I'd have liked to see Strange suffer each death and to see him struggle to send himself back in, time and time again. That'd be heroic.
Maybe you are expecting realistic trauma from a movie that is pretty ambivalent on that score, at least as far as physical violence goes. And I def think you and jmurph are both underestimating the frustration, confusion, anger, and I daresay fear Strange is able to inspire in Dormammu - an entity plainly not used to anything but having its way. Being able to walk into suffering is a crucial advantage over a being that has never had to even consider it. Keep in mind, this is supposed to be a metaphysical moment, not really a materialist one. It's not about physical pain so much as the strength that flows from personal growth.
I am definitely questioning those as they are distinctly human, mortal emotions. As I pointed out, an extraplanar creature with plans spanning centuries doesn't necessarily react the same way. And even my puny human brain quickly recognized ways to potentially exploit the situation, especially with a seizable galactic artifact in play.
Remember Guardians of the Galaxy? A human just grabbing the stone was enough to start screwing with things.
But, I know, powerful white, hetero guy must save the day by forcing his will on a more primally powerful but fundamentally different outsider that poses an existential threat. And virtue and power become interchangeable. Basic western hero moral story.
. Can't wait!
