Well, here is my list of changes I would make to the IG codex.  Yes I realize that most of these are major boosts, but as this is just for fun anyway!<?

1) one point price drop across the board for IG infantry

2)Do away with the advisors rule.  Allow priests and commissars to be added where ever they are needed as an upgrade to a squad.  (this is a great fix for Ogryn, imagine attaching a hidden commissar with powerfist and a priest with an evisorator to a squad of 5 Ogryn)

3)Rough Riders, loose the lances but gain the ability to take three special weapons.  Change the movement rate to 6 inches + d6.  Remove fleet rule.  (These guys are scouts, not medeivel knights)

4)Hellhound, av 13 front, but gets back the glances always pen rule

5)Russ, Reinforced armor, any hits to the front armor do not gain any bonus to strength.  In addition ap1 weapons do not pen on a glance the front of a russ.  Lance weapons work as normal.  Any hits to the sides or rear are resolved as normal. 

6)Sentinel, 5 point price drop

7)Hardened fighters, adds +1 to init

8)Carapace is +2 pts per model

9)Mortars are heavy 2

10)Grenade launchers are assault 2

11)Plasma gets a 2 point price rise

12)Drop Troops cost 5 pts per unit.

Rather than a 1 point drop for all IG, I'd rather see a drop in the cost of heavy weapons. IG armies have this rep for having a ton of heavy weapons, but in the end- it's not uncommon for SM to have as many or more big guns. Droping the cost of a guardsman would just lead to hoard armies- that's what constripts are for.

Drop Troops really should cost something (along with Close Order Drill). Giving these away for free just makes them mandatory in all IG armies.

@ Foil: I like it, but aren't Hellhounds already AV13 front?

@ RanTheCid:  Drop Troops and Close Order Drill aren't free, they take up a doctrine point.  I see what you're trying to get at, but having to pick and choose doctrines is actually an issue if you want to make a list that deviates at all from "standard" IG.

They are 12 front and sides, the av13 front is a screw up in the index.

Wow, It is fun, I like it, I'll answer them point by point:

1) one point price drop across the board for IG infantry

Sure, IG las rifle infantry are nearlt statistically irrelevant except as wounds anyway, So 10 points less a squad, sure.

2)Do away with the advisors rule.  Allow priests and commissars to be added where ever they are needed as an upgrade to a squad.  (this is a great fix for Ogryn, imagine attaching a hidden commissar with powerfist and a priest with an evisorator to a squad of 5 Ogryn)

Yes the advisor rule is ridiculous isnt it?  The IG codex has access to loads of substandard characters, but the way they can be played is limited? What? The greatest Irony in a list is that Imperial Guard ICs are listed as ICs, but they have to stay with their squads... Well are they INDEPENDANT or not?

But Technically those IC's are still IC's meaning that even if you removed the advisor rule they still would have to be in BTB to strike and are practically worthless in HtH because of it as they become targets... So it would also be necesary to remove IC from the IG characters stats, allowing them to strike hidden, so they have a chance against other armies, heck IG gloves aren't even S8, theyre S6 so still no insta kills, without that at least they really have no chance in CC vs anyone.

Remove IG characters IC STATUS, they aren't really ICs anyway (they HAVE to come with squads and stay with them right?)

3)Rough Riders, loose the lances but gain the ability to take three special weapons.  Change the movement rate to 6 inches + d6.  Remove fleet rule.  (These guys are scouts, not medeivel knights)

Lose the lance? No way, this is the only viable CC unit in the whole army mess it up and 1 high Initiative assault unit can kill an entire gunline...

Now if Ogryns were fixed...

4)Hellhound, av 13 front, but gets back the glances always pen rule

Old school! Sure.

5)Russ, Reinforced armor, any hits to the front armor do not gain any bonus to strength.  In addition ap1 weapons do not pen on a glance the front of a russ.  Lance weapons work as normal.  Any hits to the sides or rear are resolved as normal. <?

Makes sense, but this kind of rules writing is what I hate about the GW style sometimes which is:

UNIVERSAL RULES->Exceptions to them->Special cases->Exceptions to the special cases to the UNIVERSAL RULES

(to many layers)

6)Sentinel, 5 point price drop

Meh, sentinels are ok, theyre so week to shoot at, its the weapon upgrades that are to costly I think, base cost is fine.

7)Hardened fighters, adds +1 to init

Yes, nice to have I4 and strike with all the competent armies in the universe in CC with at least a single unit.

8)Carapace is +2 pts per model

Going from a 4+ to a 5+ save is not really  a big deal anyway.  Furthermore the restrictions on how carapace can be taken are already a limiting factor.

9)Mortars are heavy 2

Mortars could sure use a boost, but a 2 template weapon, would need a bit of clarification to fire it, is that 2 volleys of 3 per battery? or  1 volley of 6?  Good idea though.

10)Grenade launchers are assault 2

OK but I think the grenade launcher is wierd already, it doesn't strike me as a rapid fire type weapon, I think It should be S7 Assault 1 blast 24 Inches, like a mini move and shoot missile launcher, or a man pack autocannon.

11)Plasma gets a 2 point price rise

What? IG plasma guys almost always die when they rapid fire, why bother upping the prices? Only bad idea in the list I say.

12)Drop Troops cost 5 pts per unit.

Wierd for it to be free isn't it? Agreed.

1)Mortar is an indirect weapon and would fire in vollies, so one volley of 6 from a mortar team, or one volley of two from a single mortar.

2)Grenade launcher, nerfed by the blast rules, nerfed by the fact that a crack grenade can not krak anything. Add to the fact that the plasma gun is only two points more, and oh so better.... However doubling its Dakka makes it a real option, and still keeps it distinct from the plasma gun

3)Agree 100% with the advisor suggestions, remove advisors rule, and IC status.

4)I would only want to change the rough riders if the Ogryn got the boost. Do the math for a 6 man unit of Ogryn with the love glove commisar and the priest with big chainsaw vs an assault squad.

5)Oh yeah give rough riders, the sentinal special rules as well.

Yea, bigtime on 5, roughriders with the scout special rule, I really like that, fluffy, and effective, good call.

wishlists are fun, here is mine

a) some type of strength 5 or higher powerweapon option on a sentinel.
b)more weapon options for sentinels like assault cannons on a sentinal,multi-melta's etc.
c)strength 4/ -ap lasguns.
d) a way to exchange a heavy weapon for an assault weapon in drop troop squads.
e)bikes or small jeeps for scouts instead of the wacky rough riders models.

"1) one point price drop across the board for IG infantry"

I thought the reason they were changed to 6 points from 5 back in the 'Hordes' book that came with 3rd Ed is because someone showed up to a GT with a 200+ model Guard Army that could not be beaten (both normally and especially in a VP scenario).

6 points is fine.

"3)Rough Riders, loose the lances but gain the ability to take three special weapons.  Change the movement rate to 6 inches + d6.  Remove fleet rule.  (These guys are scouts, not medeivel knights)"

So, remove their speed and their chief weapons. Why would I take these again?

"4)Hellhound, av 13 front, but gets back the glances always pen rule"

And turn them into easy targets again? No thanks.

"5)Russ, Reinforced armor, any hits to the front armor do not gain any bonus to strength.  In addition ap1 weapons do not pen on a glance the front of a russ.  Lance weapons work as normal.  Any hits to the sides or rear are resolved as normal."

Don't see why. Russes are tough enough.

"6)Sentinel, 5 point price drop"
<?
I'd even say 10, and either remove Armoured Top of make it 5 points.

"7)Hardened fighters, adds +1 to init"

Plus COD = Init 5 Guardsmen. No.

"8)Carapace is +2 pts per model"

Which doesn't solve anything. 10 points a squad, just like Cameleoline.

"9)Mortars are heavy 2"

Giving them the 'Choppa' rules makes them better.

"10)Grenade launchers are assault 2"

At their current price, yes. I'd rather make them 5 points each though.

"11)Plasma gets a 2 point price rise"

 You are joking right? 12 points on a model that hits half the time and kills himself 2/3rds of the time on a 1, whereas Marines get it for 10? A Plasma Gun is worth 6 points in the hands of a Guardsman. 8 I can live with. It needs a 2 point reduction, not an increase.

"12)Drop Troops cost 5 pts per unit."

That I would not mind.

BYE

My guard wish list. 1.Lower the cost of fire support teams. They are too easy to kill. 2. Lose the advisors rule and make commissars a HQ choice that can have 0-6 as a unit or they can attach themselves to any squad they wish. Bring back the commissar training squads! 3. Priests and Sanctioned Psykers should be squad upgrades to ALL IG units. 4. Lower the cost of weapon upgrades on sentinals. Also add more weapon loadouts (i.e. assault cannons, heavybolters, etc.) 5. Reduce the cost of ogryns, and give the bonehead access to powerweapons. Also make ogyrns fearsome in combat. Say, any unit charged by ogryns or wishing to assault them must take a LD test. If they pass all is well. If not the unit fights with a WS of 2 as they are overwelmed by the brute force of the ogryns. 6. Drop Troops 5 pts per squad. 7. Add in the super command squad from WD. However, let the Supreme commander take weapon boosts like DoW. That commander would be an awesome model. 8. Make mortars not suck 9. Make preliminary barrage a special rule if you have a master vox. Basically if you have a MV, you get the preliminary barrage rule like a fighta bomma raid. This will make master voxes worth taking. 10. Bring back the bolter upgrade for Hardened Vets! 11. Reduce the cost of stormtroopers and give them access to skills (tank hunters, move through cover, etc.) as upgrades. They need more options. These are all I can think of right now.... Capt K

Lose the advisor rules.

 Lower the costs of priests. 

Allow any guard inf squad to substitute a 2nd special wpn for a heavy weapon.

Allow Storm trooper sgts the option for a hellgun instead of LP/CCW

Better weapons for sentinels - why do these not get Hvy bolters?  Twin linked?

Lower cost of track guards - compare to what TAU pay to avoid immobilized.

 

1)Would a 200 model guard army be that bad of a thing? Plus it can be killed if fighting the right army. MEQs would have a rough time though. Besides I can name 4 other armies off the top of my head that "can not be beaten!"

3)You would take rough riders because if you remove the fleet rule, but change their base speed to 6+d6, they can move and shoot. Add in three special weapons and you actually have a fast fast attack.

4)AV13 is easy? It would let them run with the russ's a little better.

5)What about VS rail guns, tank hunters, ect, lookin for a boost that would up their survivablity without completly boning some armies like the monolith.

7)Init 5, so what they are still strenght 3 and test to run on init three. Plus you would have to burn two doc points and then pay some points for the bonus.

8)It solves everything, my big beef is that I got to pay 20 points to upgrade a 5 man command squad to carapace or a 6 man vet squad. changing it to 2 points per model makes it a little fairer.

9)agreed, but should termies really save on a 4+ vs mortars?

11) Yes I am

1) Give us screening back! Honestly, call it "they all look the same" or "there's just too many of them" or "engage operation meatshield"

I thought of another one. Bring back useful vehicle wargear. Camo netting? Mine sweeper? Does anyone use this crap? What about Reinforced armor? I want that! Or Electro hulls? Hell, what about Ceramite armor? Bring those back! I also agree with the poster about track guards. Tau get the ability to shake off an immoblized result for 5pts! Also lower the points on improved comms. 20pts for 1 reroll is over the top. Capt K

Here are two changes I would make to the IG list:

1) Orgyns count as monstrous creatures in close combat and an otion to take Carapace Armor.

2) Veterans have access to actual Veteran Skills, especially Tank Hunters.

1) Orgyns count as monstrous creatures in close combat and an otion to take Carapace Armor

Ummm... no? That would be way too much. Were you just going for the ignore armor and 2d6 thing, or did you intend for them to count as 10 models each.

carapace armor does make sense though.

"1)Would a 200 model guard army be that bad of a thing? Plus it can be killed if fighting the right army. MEQs would have a rough time though. Besides I can name 4 other armies off the top of my head that "can not be beaten!""

Yes. It would be. How are you going to make VP's back when you're better off firing your guns at MEQ's to make points back than you are Guardsmen. I've seen a 250+/- point unit of Scorpians charge into Guard lines and make back 76 points before being wiped out even though they killed over 20 men.

You reduce the cost of Guardsmen accross the board and an all-infantry Guard army becomes even more of a statistical rules abuse army. As I said, there is a very good reason that Guardsmen went from 5 to 6 when the first Guard Codex came out. Guardsmen aren't worth 6 if you look at their stats/weapons, but from a game balencing perspective, they are.

3)You would take rough riders because if you remove the fleet rule, but change their base speed to 6+d6, they can move and shoot. Add in three special weapons and you actually have a fast fast attack.

Why would I want a fast unit with Special Weapons? Why would I ever take a unit like that? And RR's are fast attack - they're fast, and they attack enemy assaulters. They're the only viable HTH unit in the army. And saying 'If Ogryn were fixed...', they should BOTH be viable HTH units. We shouldn't have to trade one for another.

"4)AV13 is easy? It would let them run with the russ's a little better."

It ain't a Russ.

"5)What about VS rail guns, tank hunters, ect, lookin for a boost that would up their survivablity without completly boning some armies like the monolith."

Yeah, what about them? Those things good at killing vehicles. Deal with it. We don't need another special-f***ing-rule to fight other special rules.

"7)Init 5, so what they are still strenght 3 and test to run on init three. Plus you would have to burn two doc points and then pay some points for the bonus."

So they're faster than Marines, Chaos Marines, a lot of Eldar and equal in speed to Aspect Warriors and Gaunts. What have you been smoking, 'cause I want some Foil.

Init 5 Guardsmen is so beyond stupid. It's like saying Toughness 4 Guardsmen - it just doesn't happen.

"8)It solves everything, my big beef is that I got to pay 20 points to upgrade a 5 man command squad to carapace or a 6 man vet squad. changing it to 2 points per model makes it a little fairer"

And I don't disagree that paying 20 points for a 5-man squad is stupid. However, paying 20 points for a 10 man squad is just slightly less stupid. Carapace Armour should be 10 points per unit (Warrior Weapons free, Cybernetic Enhancements should not exist, Cameleoline is fine), and Special Equipment in general should be applied per 'choice' on the FOC, not per army, so you can have a Heavy Infantry (Carapace Armour) platoon and a Light Infantry (Light Infantry & Cameleoline) platoon in the same army.

9)agreed, but should termies really save on a 4+ vs mortars?

No. One of the things we did in our ruleset is we changed Heavy Close Combat Weapons to a -1Sv rather than a flat out 4+. Always felt dumb to us that a Terminator loses the effectiveness of his armour vs an Ork, yet someone in carapace doesn't? The -1Sv made more sense, then we could apply that rule to other guns (Autocannons, Reaper Autocannons, Assault Cannons, Griffon Mortars, Mortars, Inferno Cannons, Sub-Munitions). Makes things far more interesting.

11) Yes I am

Phew!

BYE

1. Make Ogryns a worthwile (counter)assault unit.
2. Make plasma cheaper, and/or an upgrade to give the gunner +1 save.
3. Points cost lowered for the above mentioned doctrines.
4. Making mortars useful.
5. Price drop on storm troopers.

(fingers crossed for next version of the I.G codex)

I haven't read all the posts, but the best way IMHO to represent Rough Riders being used as Scouts is to allow them to purchase the Improved Comms vehicle upgrade for the squad, possibly at a slight discount. Cavalry in the age of skirmishing, rifle-armed infantry did become relegated to intelligence, but a drive-by squad on horsies doesn't really represent it - guns and horses have rarely mixed in the sort of "shock attack" role performed by IG suicide squads or Fantasy Pistoliers. Forcing stationary shooting with rapid fire/fleet reflects a dragoon style of dismounted shooting. Perhaps they could be allowed bolt guns (heresy!) in lieu of lasguns a la USA ACW -style when the cavalry got the repeaters that were too heavy to be carried by men on foot. Becoming even more anachronistic, why not allow heavy weapons in RR squads? Limber up and gallop away.

Alternatively maybe RRs/Ratlings/maybe otehr "irregulars" like vets could have an "inverse" Improved Comms effect (affecting your opponents reserves rolls) to represent behind-the-lines sabotage/harassing sniping, so long as they are not on the table. And one last thing about RRs - lancers are good, but Cuirassers (lp+ccw) are nowhere near as effective. You oughta be able to get FC + x2 heavy ccw at the same rate as a lance.

In general, most of my problems are with doctrines. Hardened Fighters should include Warrior Weapons, f'rinstance. The sniper rifle from LI should be free, as it's not useful enough to justify +5 pts AND a heavy weapon slot IMHO. Back to units, playable Ogryns would be cool. Also rules for human bikers would be neat, as well as seeing the Gryphon back in the standard book.

@H. : Not to pick on your idea specifically, but I would personally be quite surprised to see save modifiers in 5th. They've got enough complaints about how it's the same as Fantasy as it is.

"1)Would a 200 model guard army be that bad of a thing? Plus it can be killed if fighting the right army. MEQs would have a rough time though. Besides I can name 4 other armies off the top of my head that "can not be beaten!""

H.B.M.C.> Yes. It would be. How are you going to make VP's back when you're better off firing your guns at MEQ's to make points back than you are Guardsmen. I've seen a 250+/- point unit of Scorpians charge into Guard lines and make back 76 points before being wiped out even though they killed over 20 men.

No, it wouldn't be (200 IG).  IG are easily killed by (because of morale) the hoard when they fall back out of CC, (and by tank shock, morale checks from fire and psychic powers).  I have personally destroyed 70 IG, an entire army, with a mere 8 striking scorions because of their low I and abysmal HtH ability. I have seen the exact same thing with a berserk demon prince several times.  It is inexplicable what you claim to have seen.  How could IG ever strike back at Scorpians?

Assault, destroy the killzone, consolidate, anihilate, rinse and repeat.  Plus lasrifle guys are statistically worthless anyway vs T4 3Sv, 20 shots to kill a MEq and they're not even half the points cost? Come on, they could be less points a squad.

The poblem with the base IG cost is really because they raised the basic cost from 5 to 6 points, and then went back and raised the cost of special and heavy weapons to the point where IG pay the same or more for their weapons as Marines who have a higher BS and are much Tougher to kill.

Those two factors have made the basic IG squad slightly overcosted. They either need to reduce the basic pt value of a guardsmen back down to 5 or return their Heavy and Special weapons back to a sane level. Either way accomplishes the same goal.

Which costs Yak?

The 3 point flamer, 8 point melta/plasma/grenade and 20 point Lascannons of the first 3rd Ed Guard Codex, or the 'Ravening Hordes' Guard list from the BBB?

BYE

my turn

1 close order gives you extra attack from baonets

2 hellgun improved stats mabe bolter stats only assault 2or3

3 jump/jet infentry mabe Terradon riders from the Lizardmen range

4 no stink flame cannon 4 d6 for range not not to hit there stinking flame wepon

5 doctrens dont restrict eleats as much

6 would it huurt to to give them (gaurdsmen) somthing better the angry flashlights

7 shotguns are made for obliterating things go hunting with a shotgun you wont have any trophys but you most likely kill somthing have you seen what thoes things can do   

Which costs Yak?

The 3 point flamer, 8 point melta/plasma/grenade and 20 point Lascannons of the first 3rd Ed Guard Codex, or the 'Ravening Hordes' Guard list from the BBB?

I was mainly talking about the transition from the BBB list to the first 3rd edition codex, although they did go crazy and raise some of the weapons costs again in this latest codex. But in general, the real damage was done in that first transition.

One or the other I say; one or the other (5 point guardsmen or appropriately priced weapon upgrades).

I can't for the life of me figure out how it is balanced for a BS3 guardsman to pay 25 points for a Lascannon, while a BS4 Marine that can shoot heavy weapons on the turn he rallies only has to pay 15 points for it. Ditto for equal costs for a Plasmagun, when the Marine not only hits more often, but saves on the Gets Hot twice as much!

I think they need to assign point costs for weapons based at least somewhat on the abilities of the model using it!

Why not have Mortars at Strength 5?  Seemes silly to me that a mortar shell is about as effective as a bolter anyway.  Make it Strength 5 AP4 and voala you have a viable weapon at an affordable cost. 

@Strangelooper.  25 points buys 4 lascannon per 100 points. 20 buys 5. A small but significant difference, as it permits more lascannon to be crammed in to an army that thinks big when it comes to number of units. P'r'aps that was thought of as a bad thing.

Posted By Max on 10/30/2006 6:21 PM
@Strngelooper.  25 points buys 4 lascannon per 100 points. 20 buys 5. A small but significant difference, as it permits more lascannon to be crammed in to an army that thinks big when it comes to number of units. P'r'aps that was thought of as a bad thing.

And that was a stupid thought (not you Max).  Making the weapons more expensive then everyone else, yet IG have BS 3???  Why shouldn't the guard be on parity or superior in terms of shooting? Their lower ballistic skill more than makes up for it, and their lack of HTH effectiveness (and lack of armor saves) counterbalances as well.

The following isn't me defending the decisions of designers, it's just following through on how they might see it. A six-man las/pas marine squad is 115 points, and you can field a maximum of six such units, for 690.  A 10-man las/plas IG squad is 93. Six squads plus 2 JOs to field them is 638, for two troops slots. Lascannon on the JOs as well (not the best tactical idea, but for this example) brings that up to 688. the aim I guess is to prevent too large an economy of scale. At 20 points per, that would be 648 points, at 15 points per that's 578 points. Unlike SMs which have run out of troops slots, there's 4 more troop slots to cram in more units.With an increasing economy of scale, the issue of stats becomes a non-issue as the IG can field enough warm bodies to overcome problems with BS and armour.

ya, but that 6 las cannons hitting half the time vs. 6 las cannons hitting a 3rd of the time...for roughly the same amount of points. Not to mention the plasma overheats are going to kill off the Guard a lot faster then marines and Marine bolters are so much more effective the Guard flashlights. Seems silly to me.

Lets throw all that together and see what it spells I-G G-O-T R-O-B-B-E-D...

And the guard are also less resilient and suck in hth to boot. Marines are simply underpriced compared to non-marines. The only saving grace the IG has is that a take-all-comers marine army is going to be geared towards killing 15-pt MEqs, not 6-pt GEqs - so your army is optimized to kill his but his isn't optimized to kill yours. Of course things like assault cannons screw this up, but I guess that's their thing.

1) one point price drop across the board for IG infantry

Sure I would go for that.

2)Do away with the advisors rule.  Allow priests and commissars to be added where ever they are needed as an upgrade to a squad.  (this is a great fix for Ogryn, imagine attaching a hidden commissar with powerfist and a priest with an evisorator to a squad of 5 Ogryn)

This is a great idea.  STick the commissar in with 50 conscripts and let him swing away, or with some ogryn.  If they fix ogryn

3)Rough Riders, loose the lances but gain the ability to take three special weapons.  Change the movement rate to 6 inches + d6.  Remove fleet rule.  (These guys are scouts, not medeivel knights)

I dont think so.  the lances are what make them great.  3 weapons just means that the will miss a lot then die.  Esp with BS3.

4)Hellhound, av 13 front, but gets back the glances always pen rule

This is pointless.  Basically you are saying that it gets penned on a 13.  Is that not what it already is.  So what is the point of this change.

5)Russ, Reinforced armor, any hits to the front armor do not gain any bonus to strength.  In addition ap1 weapons do not pen on a glance the front of a russ.  Lance weapons work as normal.  Any hits to the sides or rear are resolved as normal. 

As much as I would love this, I think it takes away from the realism that IG tanks have.  Good idea though.

6)Sentinel, 5 point price drop

Personally I would rather them get a H2H wpn option LIKE EVERY OTHER WALKER IN THE GAME.  They suck and as of now are probably the crappiest walker in the game, low strength, low armor, and crappy BS.  Even the killer kans are better.

7)Hardened fighters, adds +1 to init

Hmm I like this, they get to keep the +1 WS as well?  I can see it now though. hardened fighters +1 then close order +1 = guard are now init 5.  heh heh, that would be cool.  They might actually win a combat.

8)Carapace is +2 pts per model

Isn't this what it already works out to?

9)Mortars are heavy 2

I might take mortars finally if they do this.  As of now I dont really like them too much.

10)Grenade launchers are assault 2

This is cool.  So youll actually hit statistically once per turn.  then watch them make thier save cause everyone plays marines.

11)Plasma gets a 2 point price rise

Bad Idea, not only do we usually miss, but usually die when we do.  Makes no sense.

12)Drop Troops cost 5 pts per unit.

Gay, I like it the way it is cause it is free.

I have about 10 pages of general and specific army changes that I think the game should undergo.  I will post them in here this weekend.

I personally would like to see a set of sweeping changes to each of the advisors.

The Commissar isn't much cop. As HMBC has pointed out, he's far too expensive for a multiwound T3 character. 15-20points at best And I think his signature move doesn't provide any benefit for squads outside of the CO unit. I'd like to see the current "Summary Execution" rule stripped out, and replaced with something that affects other units. I dunno.. something like....

Summary Execution: An IG infantry unit (as defined by the Doctrine rules) within 12" of a Commissar may, when required to make a leadership test, sacrifice a model from that unit and ignore any one modifer to the leadership test or leadership value of the unit (e.g. applying a positive or negative modifer, or being required to roll less or more dice) of the IG players choice that applies to that leadership test.

Basically, this is Summary Execution+. It's still got the same look and feel of a Commissar power, but it affects more units, and has more leeway in dealing with the various types of modifer that can be applied to a leadership test (e.g. leadership caps, more dice, positive/negative modifers to the dice roll or the leadership value).

The Psyker I'd like to see keep the same crappy stats, with the exception of having a leadership of 7(9). The 9 should be for making psychic tests or making leadership tests as the result of enemy psychic powers/wargear. That way, there's a small chance it'll get through the barrage of anti-psyker powers ad wargear that's floating around out there, and it specialises him toward psyking. I'd also like to see the Psyker be able to buy his power rather than roll for it, for a bargain basement price - say 5-8 points on top of the basic cost, which I would like dropped by 2 points to compensate for buying a power. The powers could use some changes too.

Curse of the Machine Spirits is pretty pointless, as it presupposes one would willingly charge into combat with a wimpy psyker. I'd like that power changed to a ranged, LOS power, with the following effect: "Vehicle does not benefit from any vehicle upgrades bought for it this turn". That sounds much more like what a Curse of the Machine Spirit would be like, isn't too powerful (as it doesn't affect the vehcile itself - just the things bought for it), and risks the unit as the psyker must be within LOS.

Psychic Lash is in the same boat. No sane IG General will ever charge an enemy unit. This needs to be a ranged, LOS power as well, and geared towards the mind control it's supposed to be. "Affected unit counts as infantry for purposes of movement and charging on enemy players next turn".

Finally, Lightning Arc. If I'm going to have a multi-shot lasgun, then I want 6 shots, no need to LOS, and auto hits after passing that psychic test. Arr.

The Priest. What to do about the Priest.   Hand to hand is right out. That's not a Guard thing, and never will be. The next obvious step would be to take some kind of morale bonus... but that's getting pretty stale. I mean, how many ways can one fix leadership problems? You've got the CO, Standard bearer, Commissar, Psyker with Telepathic Order.... four is pushing it, five is taking the michael. I must confess, I'm stuck as to what to do with the Priest. The only thing I can think of is cranking up the hand-to-hand under a priest well beyond its current incarnation.

 No sane IG General will ever charge an enemy unit.

Personally I often charge into combat.  I can usually win it as well.  However this had back fired horribly.  More times than not the WS5 commissar and  general (Hard FTRS) can usually take out a daemon prince in a turn.  Especially since I charge with my platoon HQ another 2 powerfists. 

I have heard of some people giving the psyker the honorifica Imperialis which makes him leadership 9 and then give him hard fighters and a force wpn.  Really good at taking out leaders.  Now he has 5 WS5 INIT 5 (Close order, HF) attacks that can kill multiple wound models.  Yes hes only STR3 but he only has to wound once on an enemy character.

 

Also in reguards to the IG codex.  I agree VERY strongly that officers should not be characters.  Makes no sense that they cant leave the squad.  I dont know what the point of that rule is.  It only makes them weaker.

Also lascannons are extremely over priced especially since guard are only BS3, it comes out to about 18. 3 points per model. 

 And in addition who ever designed the hvy weapon models is a moron.  Why would you stick two models on one giant base.  Just cause it looks cool?!  Stupid.  I dont know why they did that.  It has caused me head ache after headache.  People claiming partials on models that if mounted on normal bases would not be partials.  That is why I am working on puting all my weapon teams on small bases. 

Also, some would argue that one must use the base that comes with the model.  Then why does steel legion have small base bases for thier missle launcher and cadians use large ones?  Makes no sense.  I have even had people try to tell me the base can be insta killed.  Or that I MUST remove one team at a time instead of the assitant gunners first.  I am gonna mount the guards men on small bases then the guns on calvary bases.  Counting the calvary base as being in the same location as the gunner.  I want to wait and see who will be the first to target the calvary base/gun and/or claim a partial on it. 

If worse comes to worse Ill glue the lascannons to the side of thier head.  THen maybe nobody will give me crap about it.

Another few thoughts:

I believe Advisors, as they stand currently, do NOT count as ICs as do Officers. However, eliminating the requirement that they be taken first for all command squads before joining othe units should be waived. They should also be allowed to join non-Guard Infantry units - i.e. why wouldn't a Commissar be right at home with a few of his old jackbooted chums from the Scholae Progenium? It'd still be 60/65 points for a hidden fist compared to 45 for MEQs, so there would remain a small premium regardless of where they went.

Also, what about allowing Advisors to get a horsey for free? It could be kind of cool to have the option of fielding Rough Riders with Hatred, for instance...

Enginseers - why have them take up a whole Elites slot? I'd just have them count as Advisors, with Servitors then counting as a potential four extra members of the squad. Though combined with the above idea, this could make for a potentially amusing RR squad...nine lancers, veteran sergeant, commissar with fist, priest with eviscerator, sanctioned psyker, enginseer and four horsie servitors for an 18 strong Beasts unit with a potential seven power fists...but if you're going to spend three or four doctrines then why not be able to take something like this?

Get rid of 0-1 for Ratlings - a WHOLE DOCTRINE POINT for ONE BALANCED UNIT is not worth it, IMHO.

Heavy Weapons Squads should have their points cost reduced now that there is no screening. 65 points for a mortar squad assuming mortars stay S4. Heavy weapons at the same cost as infantry units.

It would also be nice to remove the whole "Guard Infantry" thing for just plain old "any Imperial Guard model" or "any non-Conscript model." Why shouldn't Rough Riders be able to hunt Orks? Why wouldn't there be a planet full of REALLY mean (WS5) Ogryns? Or Stormtroopers not have access to the latest Chameleoline sniper skrims?

Also - and this may be the Tyranid player in me speaking - but it kind of seems like the front-of-the-book/back-of-the-book list division is sort of silly. Why not just streamline all the doctrines into the main list?

I was looking at the post about how an IG lascannon is more than a space M one.  You are correct.  Even working out the math it does not make sense.  By study I am an engineer so I like to look at things mathematically.

Check this.  What would you say MATHEMATICALLY is the most effective Hvy weapon in the IG inventory at killing Termies.  You would think Lascannons correct.  Not True.  Heavy Bolters are more Points Effective at killing termies.  I have run the numbers several times.  It is because of thier invoulnerable save and the overpriced lascannon.  In EVERY POSSIBLE scenario lascannons only do better against Tyranid MC i.e .(T6).  That is because they do not get an IV save.  Lascannons are anit tank weapons and should be used as such.  So who ever the designers are need to take a class in statistics cause they do not know what they are doing.  ALso .  The autocannon is your sure fire way of knowing your oponned does not know what he is doing.  It is the least cost effective weapon in the IG army.  It is because of the BS3.  The only weapon more efffective vs. infantry than a heavy bolter is in the case of a krak missle vs. a SM with no IV save.  Other than that if your opponed is firing lascannons at termies or other infantry when they have other target either :

1. They are a noob

or 2. they suck at math.

 

Run it yourself if you do not belive me.  How do you find points effectivness?  I was about to post it, but figure it out for yourself.  Ill tell you if your numbers are wrong.

 

@Scipio, Having re-read my earlier post, my example included Lascannons on the JOs as well, which means that an equal number of lascannon shots were hitting. (8 Las/4 hits, 6 Las/4Hits). Furthermore, I do believe that a gets hot plasma gun has an equal chance of klling a Space Marine as it does a guard, as both are wounded on a 2+ and cannot make a save, That said, I do agree that the Las is too costly for the Guard, as the higher cost of fielding Lascannon Guard makes (at 1500 anyway) as well as including other necessary elements means far fewer Lascannon than I'm happy with.

@smart_alex. As the Lascannon is primarily intended as an anti-tank weapon, saying the gun is mathmatically inefficent for killing infantry is exactly what the designers want you to think. They want you to buy Heavy Bolters and Autocannon for killing infantry and keep the lascannon for vehicles and  opportunity shots on characters and the like. If the Lascannon were a mathmatically efficent infantry killer, I'd spam it like crazy because I face MEQs all the time and Las/Plas would be the unbeatable combo. 25pts is the price they want you to pay for "purity of purpose" i.e. vehicle killer unit.  For me, 25pts is too steep for "purity of purpose", and is it properly efficent against vehicles anyway?

On another issue, Stormtroopers. There's been a lot of ill-feeling about Stormtroopers on Dakkadakka, and the ill-feeling seems to center around "Hardened Vets are a better choice than Stormtroopers". This, I believe, is because both units are cast in the same role.

Consider the Stormtrooper. He is better armed (sort of), better armoured, has a better BS, better LD... the Stormtrooper's role is "Imperial Guard+". Anything a Guard unit can do, Stormtroopers can do it better. The thing is, H-Vets are also cast in the same role. Their small arms might no be better, and they might not have a better save, but they make up for it by being able to carry more special weapons, being cheaper, and getting infiltrate out of the box. As before, anything a Guard Unit can do, H-Vets can do it better. So, when it comes down to it, the unit considered the better buy will win out, as the other unit doesn't have anything else it can offer. Stormtroopers do need improvement, then. But they need direction, a direction that moves away from H-Vets and offers things that H-Vets can't.

One thing that could be done is to expand the available equipment, and pemit various USR or Doctrines to be bought for either a discount, or a flat cost. For example, Cameoline might be available for the basic cost, or at half ost is bought as a Doctrin choice.

As far as expansion on equipment goes, how about borrowing from earlier eras of W40k? Why not revive things like the Supression Shield (say that the SS counts as a one-handed weapon, but improves the saving throw of the model by one). By combining that with a re-jigged hellpistol (Str 4, as has been already suggested on "fix a useless weapon" ) you've got a unit that could weather lots of fire and give back one hell of a return.

In fact, thinking about it, the two could be combined into tailored "packages". Some examples:

Covert Ops Package. 10pts for the unit. Whole unit gets Cameloline, and the Light Infantry Doctrine without having to pick either as Doctrine Choice.

Shock Assault Package. 12pts for the unit. Whole unit's basic weapons are replaced with a Suppression Shield and Hellpistol. Unit also gets Deep Strike.

Commando Package. 12 pts for the unit. Unit gets Tank Hunters USR, Melta Bombs and Infiltrate. Special Weapons members can each be equipped with 1 Demo Charge instead of usual special weapons at +5pts per model.

@Max
As for me personally I like the HV better. Just because I feel they can fulfill more roles than the storm troopers.

Not only are they effective at shooting but they benefit from doctrines and you can also make them assault based. Give them HF, and carapace along with a PF for the vet sgt. Then a few shotguns for them to shoot down the enemy before charging into them. Also they could get off 6 plasma gun shots at BS4 and 15 other shots at STR 3. I like using them this way as well. Mostly i drop them in and give them 3 meltas and use them as suicide antitank squads.

Also, although I like the storm trooper models better the HV that forge world makes are nice too.

Couple of points max....

1)Plasma guns auto wound the firer on a roll of a 1 (1 or 2 when rapid firing) The model then gets to make a save as normal. This makes them much more dangers for the IG as they have a 5+ as opposed to the 3+ of a space marine.

2)Storm trooper have the same BS as the vet squad. The differences between the two is that
a)Storm troopers gun has same strength but a better ap value
b)Storm troopers have a better save
c)Storm troopers cost more
d)Storm troopers cannot take heavy weapons (even the heavy flamer, seems made for them)
e)Storm troopers can only take 2 special weapons
f)Storm troopers do not get infiltrate and deep strike for free

What it really boils down to is that a SOB costs one point more and for that one point you get a 3+ save, a bolter, and acts of faith....

Although I do like your idea of an assault package stormie squad, but only with str 4 hell pistols, and a rule that says they get str 4 in close combat as they are fighting with their pistols or something along that line.

I too would like to see the advisors rule reworked.

I'd like to be able to place any advisor with any sqd I want. RR Commies seem fun to me, as well as a potential way to make them effective after their 1st charge. Detonate the lances/ PF or PW Commie and PW RR SGT. A FW Psyker on horsie might be nice too.

Hmm...maybe just have the Suppression Shield count as a Storm Shield, count Shock Baton as heavy close combat weapon or something similar...

Another - perhaps heretical - thought on stormtroopers: no more helguns, boltguns instead. Korpsman had an idea for auxiliary grenade launchers that I thought might make good standard equipment for stormtroopers to help make up for their higher cost and lack of a third special weapon slot. Overall, IG elites besides Veterans need to be improved. I don't think Stormies should be a better deal than SOBs, but they should be at least as good a deal as hardened veterans. Another few ideas I har for them: option of upgrading to sniper rifles - especially if ratlings are left at 0-1 - say three each or the squad gets one for free for each special weapon slot they don't use. Rip off an old WarZone rule that applied to sword and pistol berzerkers who could take a machine gun - say if you have two squads of normal stormies you're allowed a Storm Trooper heavy weapons squad at 111 points with mandatory infiltrate and either multi-lasers +0, plasma cannons +20 or multi-meltas +10.

Why not an AP4 Hellgun?

Because its better than a marine bolter. You missed the 11th Commandment "thine Guard shalt not have better toys than thine Divine Marines"

If the hellgun was ap4 than glory boys vs firewarrors would get interesting.

10 greniders kill 3.333 firewarrors at range
10 firewarrors kill 2 storm troopers at range.

However the firewarriors are probably going to be shooting first unless the stormies are deep striking or infiltrating.

@foil Oh gawd, what other rules have I got wrong? My mates are going to be not pleased. Not at all.

To add to the heretical thoughts running around here, does anyone remeber the era of IG with jump packs? I remember a pic done by Paul Bonner of three IG (in the then "standard" IG uniform) jumping towards the "camera". Well, one thing that would make Stromtroopers very different would be to give them either jump or jetpacks, turn those hellguns into assault weapons an make sure they get kitted out just with assault, template or rapid fire special weapons. Yers, it does turn them into MI, but a unit that could fire on the bounce is something that would be very unique to the IG army.

Jumpacks...are you kidding. I used to run my Commissar with Jump Pack and a Vortex grenade...ahh I miss playing guard in 2nd edition. They did so many things right back then...now...eh so so.

I think, that in the next IG codex, Storm Troopers have the greatest potential for improvement from an overcosted (for what they do) unit to a fairly nasty fighting force. Some of my ideas for improvement include:

1a. upgrade their Hellguns to Str. 4 AP 6. I don't think many would mind that. If not a strength hike and a penetration drop, then perhaps (1b). an underslung grenade launcher - one shot, Str.3, AP 6, assault 1 24" range. I don't think that's too much to ask for.

2. I'd like to see Storm Troopers get Drop Troops/Infiltrate right out of the box, rather than pay a point. If H Vets can do it, why not these guys?

3. Storm Troopers deserve the option of taking a heavy weapon. In fact, I wouldn't mind even seeing the H Vets, which are supposed to be sneaking around with special weapons on kill-missions, lose their option to take a heavy. Now, I'm not asking for Lascannons or Missile Launchers, but I agree with foil about giving them the option of taking a Heavy Flamer. I think there's even potential for ST's to be given the option of taking a stripped down Mutlilaser, something like Str6, AP nil, and be a Rapid Fire 36" weapon. Not overly powerful, but it would give them some higher strength firepower to kill tougher stuff in the event they were sitting still (like on an objective). I don't think that an HB or Autocannon would be a good idea, since that would encourage people to make them a gunline unit with BS 4, double special weapons, and 4+ armor.

3. If nothing else, I think that ST's could benefit from a drop in points cost. 9 points per model, with the option of picking up melta bombs for 3 points extra per model.

I think that these three things would help them out greatly.

CK

Heh, the first time I fielded Stormies (as grenadiers in a small guard army) I informed my opponents that they were carrying HELLGUNS!!! He was wary until the first time they fired, then he laughed out loud.

S4 AP6 sounds good. Not quite a bolter, but close.

Another option would be S3 AP5 Assault 2 (maybe range 18"?). That would make sense considering that stormies get free grenades and decent armour; they could be a not-abysmal Guard CC unit if not for the rapidfire basic guns. Double-plas stormies would be a bit confused, but large units of double melta or double flamer stormies would be pretty interesting this way, with a Fist on the vet sarge. The hellpistol would be unchanged, I suppose. I'd say increase its range to 18", but I think all pistols are 12" (except the 6" inferno pistol) so it might be too much of a radical change to increase it.

I agree that they shouldn't have access to long range heavies... a Heavy Flamer, or possibly a Multimelta for tankhunting...

Think of 5x10 units of flamer/heavy flamer stormies with assault 2 hellguns, disembarking out of a Gorgon for a toast-n-charge. Heh.

Whatever is done about Stormtroopers, they need a points break. Possibly down to the level of H-Vets, as if they get better arms or better skills or whatever, they'll quickly be racheted up through the target hierarchy and at T3, they gonna die and that investment of points won't see a fair enough return.

MY OPINION:
Stormtroopers are garbage. On top of that its 40 bux for only ten of them. The ONLY reason I have a squad is because the models kick ass. Beautiful. However STR 3 sux horribly. Also only 2 special weapons and no hvy wpns sux. HV can do everything that stormtroopers can and then some. Sure the armor save is worse but most everything in the game is AP4 or better. Not to mention you can build you HV to be assauly by giving a vet sgt a powerfist and giveing everyone shotguns and some assault wpns like 3 flamers or 3 meltas.

The only time I field storm troopers is for fluff and to show off my paint job. Thats IT.

and in addition, most ELITES are supposed to seriously kick some ass as the word implies. Where are somebody said in here HELLGUN sounds intimidating. Then you hit 10 times and wound once and they make thier save....well......whats so "elite" about that. Elites should be somthing that if you take too much of people will be pissed at you. IF you take 30 Storm troopers people will just laugh. The only worthy elites in the entire IG army are HV and ratling. Too bad you can only take 1 unit of ratlings. Every other elite is garbage.

Ratlings? You're joking right?

Sure they're cheap, and...uhh..well, they're cheap. Sniper rifles are not very good unless you consistently play high toughness/poor save armies that aren't immune to pinning.

Let me know what those armies are when you find one.

(braces self)

Tyranid MEQs*, C'tan, and Greater Daemons all make great targets for Ratlings IMHO. When targetting something like that, a sniper rifle is about as good as an autocannon. The extra 12" of range is occasionally worthwhile as well - all the SM players with the "sniper rifle and heavy bolter scouts" fetish can't ALL be n00|3zors. The REALLY stupid thing about rats IMHO is that they require a whole doctrine for a single unit. I'd prefer to see them work like HVs - unrestricted 0-1 without doctrine as all regiments have cooks, logistical troopers, etc. - or up to three with doctrine. It probably wouldn't unbalance them to bring their stats up to human levels either to possibly represent units of IG-proper marksmen.

*applies only to tactical environments in which plasma guns and lascannon are common - i.e. ALMOST everywhere. In environments where the best AP floating around is 3 - and they DO exist - the Tyranid player will probably take a 2+ save, making the comparison farcical.

Another idea on stormtroops - maybe give them Fleet? ("special Scholae Exhubitos goose-step")

Ahh, the poor lil ratlings. While they do have their purpose, I just can't bring myself to use a Doctrine point and lose a Vet sqd for them.

While browsing Stuff of Legends, I came across a ratling cook and thought about adding cooks and other orderlies to Command Squads. Maybe allow them to "buff" the CHQ and PHQ they are bought for, or allow each CHQ/PHQ to purchase them as ablative wounds.

Posted By Strangelooper on 11/25/2006 1:19 PM
Ratlings? You're joking right?

Sure they're cheap, and...uhh..well, they're cheap. Sniper rifles are not very good unless you consistently play high toughness/poor save armies that aren't immune to pinning.

Let me know what those armies are when you find one.

lets see marines are high toughness (compared to the guard anyway) and not immune to pin checks...since that is about 80% of what you play I guess that all that is neccessary.  >

I can think of a lot of armies with high toughness models or models that aren't immune to pin checks.  Rats aren't bad (don't forget they get +1 cover save and won't run off the table).  Mine usually have a purpose in every game either shooting high toughness models (killed a wriath lord in the first turn last game I used them), acting as a cheap decoy squad or just denying the enemy places to infiltrate.  If you want sniper rifles its better then a Vindicare assassin by about 10 fold.

Burning a doctrine point on them usually doesn't bother me since I pretty much pick what I want and make the doctrine points fit what I have anyway.

I like yakface's approach to developing IG ideas. In his vox-caster thread, he wrote:



What do snipers do in movies? Well, when you have a sniper scene in a WWII movie, several things usually happen:

1) Someone who you had been building up sympathy with, dies.
2) Everyone freezes
3) The Sgt. or the Lt. yells, "hit the deck!" and everyone grabs cover.

The impression from movies is that snipers slow people down and they are highly accurate, as in they can pick targets. So far, snipers in the new codexs have focused on firepower. Why shouldn't the IG buck the trend, and become a selector/disruptor? That would make them more movie-like, and as importantly, provide a feature that H-Vet's can't duplicate or go one better than.

What would make snipers a good disruptor? Well, I think two rules would make sniper teams good disruptors.

1) Regardless of casualties or wounds, the unit shot at must take a pinning check
2) Units taking pinning from a sniper team have their leadership capped at a maximum of 7, and cannot benefit from any LD bonuses or pinning/LD advantages when making the check (except Fearless).

This way, most units have a 50/50 chance of passing the check, which is reasonable odds without making snipers too good (auto pin checks would mean that a unit could be frozen 5 out of 6 turns), doesn't penalise units with a lower leadership, and gives more tactical options to an IG general.

Having looked back through previous threads about snipers, Jfrazell in CoK's "make snipers rending" thread had some good ideas. He wrote:

His idea is for a two-man sniper team. I agree with that. I don't like Ratlings as a concept. I remember in the last IG Designer Notes that the Ratlings came across as happy people from the Shire. To me, they're a galaxy far, far away from the Moot they should rightfully be in, and a 2-man teams fits better with my expectations from the movies. I'd like to see 'em replaced with 2-man sniper teams, perhaps occupying 1 force-selection slot, but you can have up to 3 individual teams a-la Tau sniper teams. I also agree with the Stealthy USR, but not with the Night-fight rule USR. That's too close to Tau Sniper rules for my comfort, but measured against increased vulnerability is the ability to pack several units down.

Ratlings? You're joking right?

Sure they're cheap, and...uhh..well, they're cheap. Sniper rifles are not very good unless you consistently play high toughness/poor save armies that aren't immune to pinning.

Let me know what those armies are when you find one.

Are you serious.  Everyone and thier grandma plays chaos.  Ive taken out deamon princes on turn one because of these guys.  Not to mention killed fex after fex.  I really have not idea why anyone would think they suck.  Not to mention the can pin people.  Against tau you are more than likely gonna kill one then they LD7 wont let them fire thier STR 5 wpns.  Then you charge in and assault 'em.   Ratings are awsome.  Howelse are you gonna kill Daemon prices.  Fire 3 lascannons? LOL. he still gets a 4+ INV save.

Well Max, thats great...you took a unit that I like to field and well replaced it with a crappy unit that I wouldn't touch.  I think they tried the 2 man teams in Codex: Catachan last edition and I don't recall too many people fielding those type of sniper teams...in fact I can't think of anyone.  I suppose if you wanted two man sniper teams you could field special weapon teams currently but I don't know anyone who does that either.

When we redid the 40K rules for our group, one of the first changes we made was beefing up Sniper Rifles. Essentially all Snipers did the following:

Range 36"
Hits on BS+1
2+ Wound
AP2/On a 6 To HIt you pick the model that gets hit.
Pinning check if shot at. Pinning check at -1 if casualties are taken.
Can ignore closest target and fire at anything within LOS.

This makes Snipers very dangerous, so we removed Sniper units (ie. Rangers and Marine Scouts can't get a unit full of Sniper Rifles). Instead we made attached Sniper Teams (eg. for every Marine Scout Squad you can take 1-2 Scout Sniper Teams, consisting of two men and one rifle).

Works very well.

BYE

Scipio.

Looking at the Codex Catachan PDF, the unit you refer to was the Catachan Master sniper, which was one guy. His benefits do mirror Jfrazzel's idea fairly closely and of course, the reason he wasn't picked in a Codex Catachan force is at the end of the day, three snipers do not a lot of killing make, and relying on units to fail pinning tests from a Master Sniper's shots wasn't practical.

Ratlings are a firepower unit, like Tau and Eldar Snipers are. They are best used, as both you and  smart_alex point out, to kill high-toughness models. Well, fair enough. As wight_widow indicates, there are more than enough high-toughness models to justify an anti-MC unit like Ratlings. However, in response to Strangelooper, you indicate they are also there for pinning, but they aren't.  Firstly, you can only have one unit of Ratlings, which means that one unit can be pinned per turn. Secondly, they don't pin that often.

Verses Space Marines without a Chapter Master or any other Morale gubbins, they have a 4 in 11 chance of pinning a unit a turn. With a Chapter Master, that goes to 2 in 11. Necrons are a 2 in 11. Orks are a 4 in 11 (ld8 from the Nob), and they have mob checks which render pinning pointless. Tau have a general LD of 8 (shas'els), Kroot are worse - LD 7. Ig are getting bonuses from their hidden JOs and COs, and Eldar are LD 8.

Now, for "crappy unit". Over 6 turns of shooting, a sniper team which causes a pinning check when shooting at a unit will cause a pinning check 5 of those turns. Pinning without having to wound or cause a casualty is a frightening concept for fast unit like bikers, which want to benefit from their turbo-boost and other special movement. It's even more frightening when being forced to test on a LD of 7 (5 in 11 chance of failing), without any bonuses - no Rites of Battle, no MoCU, no nothing. If I have three such sniper units, then the chances of locking down my opponent get bigger and bigger. What's crappy about that? The size of the team? Well, how big should a team which causes auto pinning checks on a LD 7 cap with no bonuses or advantages permitted be?

I like HBMC's idea. That would work for me.

 

One question though.  What would be a scout team for IG?

Nothing really. We're keeping Ratlings, they're just a 5-man squad rather than 10 to keep things balanced. We did the same thing for Eldar Rangers, making their Long Rifles into R36" S4 AP4 Rapid Fire weapons, and adding Ranger Snipers (0-3 per squad of Rangers) that follow our Sniper Rules.

BYE

(small digression)

optional addenda - p. 43 Codex: IG:

Scholae Progenium Experimental Munitions

Stormtroopers who upgrade to both infiltrate and deep strike are automatically reissued their helguns, improved with discrete launching grooves, and a single round each of Scholae Progenium Experimental Munitions. Since they are trained to recover them from the bodies of their incapacitated squad mates, the entire squad counts as being equipped with a single one-shot grenade launcher for each original squad member. The squad may fire up to one launcher per surviving member per turn. The effective profile of SPEM is thus their player's choice of S6 AP4 24" Assault x or S3 AP- 24" Assault x Blast, where x is the number of grenades fired. i.e ten SPEMtroopers have taken six casualties from a Tactical Squad with a keen-eyed Heavy Bolter prior to having had an opportunity to shoot. The survivors move up, then reply with krak SPEM. At x=6, krak SPEM counts as S6 AP4 Assault 6, and a single marine is knocked down before he cas use his boltgun.

with opponent's permission: SPEM+
SPEM+ costs +0 points. This is next-generation, semi-illicit tech sold by shady xenos who flit through the Eastern Fringe; or reproduced archeotech fragments not yet in general production. While the crude launching mechanism of ordinary SPEM allows little control over the direction of the grenade, SPEM+ incorporate micro-stabilizers and propulsers of various technical origins. In game, this is represented by allowing SPEM+troopers the ability to fire other weapons the same turn as their squad uses SPEM. In addition, SPEM+ may opt to fire at G24" instead of 24".

(after all, if you put two bad things together you end up with something good )

You should rename it; the acronym sounds and looks like somthing else which will bring even more laughter to the sight of storm troopers.

Storm troopers could be fixed very easily, I still vote for strength 6, ap nill, assault 1, 18inch hellguns. Stripped down multi-lasers.

Im am re-writing the entire IG codex Ill post it in here along with what I am calling 5th ed rules over winter break.

What I am proposing for the stormtroopers is this:
Same profile and weapons but:

Special Rules:
Crack Shots: Imperial Guard Stormstroopers are specially trained to hit where it hurts while on the move with thier hellgins, they add +1 to the Strength of hellguns and hellpistols when they fire them. In addition they may treat hellguns as Assault 2 when within 6" from an enemy model.

Airborne Infantry: Storm troopers may move in movement phase, shoot and assault in the turn that they arrive if they arrive by deep strike.

Wargear:(This is availible to Veteran SGT.)
Veteran Sgt. May take Officer only Items
NEW: Homing beacon: Storm troopers do not scatter when they deep strike if the veteran sgt. has a homing beacon.

Keep them the same points cost.

This is only a preview of things that I think should be fixed. Im also compiling other ideas Ive seen in here. Some people in here have really good ideas.

Scipio in his Vox-Caster thread drew differences between HSO, SO and JOs by granting bonuses to the HSO and the SO. Why not take that idea further? For instance, say with wargear medals, you could have three "tiers" of medal, each higher tier granting a better advantage, coupled with a higher cost and only assable to a higher grade of officer.

Some examples: The Macarian Cross at JO level does what it says. At the SO tier, it costs 20 points and two units within 12" can be redeployed. At the HSO tier, it costs 30 points and three units within 12" can be redeployed.  The Crimson Medallion at JO level does what it says, at SO (for 20 points) level for 20 points all non-advisors plus the SO benefit from it (the SO hangs around with veterans who have gone through the same hell he has), and at HSO level (for 30 points), the HSO+non-advisors benefit from the medal, plus get a toughness of 4.

A couple of rules we're about to begin testing change how advisors, support squads and a few other things such as Medics work within an Infantry Platoon.

For example, current Infantry Platoon is:

Command Section
2-5 Infantry Squads
0-1 Remnant Squad

We've devised a slightly different structure:

Command Section
2-5 Infantry Squads
0-2 Platoon Support Squads
0-1 Combat Engineer Unit
0-1 Sniper
0-1 Platoon Medic
0-1 Commissar

Command Section and Infantry Squads remain as is. The Platoon Support Sections are either a Fire Support Squad w/HBs or ACs, an AT unit with either Rocket or Missile Launchers (we have a distinction between the two in our rules), or a Mortar Section (from which we removed 'the suck', so Mortars are useful). Combat Engineers are just a fancy name for Special Weapon Squads. A Sniper is self-explanatory (using the Sniper Rules detailed on the last page).

The Platoon Medic is an character that is either part of a unit as a UC, or separate as an IC (but cannot join units). As a Unit Character he gives the squad he's with a 5+ Ignore Injury save (the name we gave Feel No Pain saves). As an IC he projects a 6" radius that gives all models within that range a 6+ Ignore Injury save.

The Commissar, like the Platoon Medic, can be joined or separate. Joined he will act as he does now - executing the leader of a unit and taking over if they fail a test. As an IC he gives you a choice. You can either chose to take the test and risk running, or choose to automatically pass the test, but you must remove a model from the squad. He has a radius of 6". You can increase this radius to 12" by buying a Commissar Support Team, consisting of two men and a Heavy Bolter. The radius is increased to 12", but any unit that uses the Commissars rule loses D3 members of the unit rather than just one (just like in Enemy at the Gates, where the Commissars had machine guns set up to kill retreating conscripts).

BYE

That's an interesting organization, HBMC. It is one that I'd definitely be willing to experiment with.

As for the Storm Troopers, a complete overhaul such as this would render them much more effective without becoming game dominating, IMHO.

Storm Trooper Squad

                                  WS   BS    S   T   W   I   A   Ld   Sv       Points Cost
Storm Trooper            3     4      3   3    1   3   1   8      4+         9
Veteran Sergeant       3     4      3   3    1   3   2   9      4+       18

Number/Squad: Veteran Sergeant and between 4 and 9 Storm Troopers

Weapons: Hellguns with Targeters, Frag Grenades. The Veteran Sergeant may replace his Hellgun* with a Hellpistol** and Close Combat Weapon for no additional cost.

Options: Two Storm Troopers may form a single heavy weapon crew, where both members forfeit their Hellguns with the Targeters (but not their Frags) in exchange for a single heavy weapon. One member carries ammunition and additional equipment while the other carries and fires the weapon. If the member of the team with the weapon is killed, the ammo-carrier may instead be removed (as the only other person in his squad with adequate training, he feels inclined to take the weapon from his dead team member). One of the following heavy weapons must be bought for the heavy weapon team

Man-Portable Multilaser for +15 points. Strength 6, AP 6, Assault 2, 24" Range.

Heavy Flamethrower for +10 points. Strength 5, AP 4, Assault 1, Template.

Additionally, up to two other Storm Troopers may replace their Hellgun and attached Targeter for one of the following special weapons:

Plasma Gun for +10 points

Meltagun for +10 points

Flamethrower for +5 points

All members of the squad may take Melta Bombs for +3 points per model. In addition, Storm Troopers may replace their Hellguns for auto-shotguns*** at no additional cost. Any number of models may take this upgrade - they are not required to all have the same kind of weapon.

Character: The Veteran Storm Trooper Sergeant has access to the Imperial Guard Armory and may take "Officer Only" items. They may, however, only take up to 30 points of wargear.

Transport: The squad may be mounted in a Chimera transport vehicle at the cost indicated under the Chimera Transport entry in the Imperial Guard codex. This is typicall 70 points plus whatever the cost of the hull and turret mounted weapons are.

Additionally, if the squad numbers 5 models, they may be mounted in a Centaur dedicated transport for 50 points plus the cost of its upgrades. Centaurs are armed with a pintle-mounted Heavy Stubber.

Special Rules
Infiltrate/Deep Stirke: Storm Troopers are skilled fighters, and are trained in the highly dangerous art of sneaking behind enemy lines and the proper execution of combat drops from Valkrie dropships. Storm Troopers that are without a transport may either Deep Strike or Infiltrate for no additional cost, but only in the mission permits (Think of this as their veteran skill).

Modified/New Weapon Stats:

                             Str.      AP      Range      Type
Hellgun:               4         6         24"            Rapid Fire

Hellpistol:            4         6         18"            Assault 1

Auto-Shotgun:     3         5         18"            Assault 2


What do you all think? I think that by making the Hellgun a decent, but not too powerful ranged weapon and by giving STs the option of taking a decent Assault 2 standard weapon that they will become a unit that can be tailored to their commander's liking:

You want a shooty firebase, give 'em all Hellguns with a Man-Portable Multilaser (invention mine) and a pair of Plasma Guns.

You want a nice counter-assault unit with decent firepower, give 'em all Auto-Shotguns, along with a Heavy Flamethrower and two Flamers. Slap an Honorifica and a Powersword on your Vet Sarge, and it suddenly becomes a powerful unit that is now worth its salt on the battlefield.

comments and criticism welcome

CK

That actually looks like a more 'authentic' platoon structure, H. - closer to what one'd imagine a platoon to have in a WWII film, f'rinstance. I like the upgrades, and the take on advisers.

playing with foil's multi-laser idea:

Semi-Restricted Troops:
A single force organization chart slot of these troops are always available. 0-1 squads per slot may always be selected without spending a doctrine. If a doctrine point is spent, 0-3 squads per slot may be selected.
Ratlings
Hardened Veterans
Heavy Weapons Platoons
Ogryns
Enginseers

Stormtroopers Squad
4-9 Stormtroopers @ 10 points each
0-1 Veteran Sergeant @ 25 points
WS BS S T W I A LD SV
Stormtrooper 4 4 3 3 1 4 1 8 4+
Veteran Sergeant 4 4 3 3 1 4 2 9 4+
Officer 5 4 3 3 2 5 3 10 4+

Helpistol S3 AP5 Pistol
Helcarbine S3 AP5 Assault 4 18"
Helrifle S6 AP4 Heavy 1 42" Pinning

equipment/starting GSRs: helpistol, ccw, frag grenades, krak grenades, always count as equipped with vox-caster, Deep Strike, Infiltrate, Move Through Cover, Stealth

options: (Stormtrooper Sergeants do NOT have access to the armoury)
Any number of Stormtroopers in the squad may replace their close combat weapon with either a helcarbine or melta bombs at +2 points.
Up to one in three stormtroopers in the squad, rounded up, may replace their melta bombs with a helrifle or a power weapon at +4 points, or a melta gun for +8 points; and/or their helpistol with plasma pistol or a one-handed flamer at +5 points. (does not add +1 A, works as ordinary flamer BUT may be carried along with a two-handed weapon)
Up to one in three of these Stormtroopers, rounded up, may further replace his power weapon with a power fist at +10 points; melta gun for a multi-melta at +5 points; flamer and other weapons with a heavy flamer at +10 points; or plasma pistol and other weapons with a plasma gun at + 5 points.
A single Stormtrooper Veteran Sergeant per Force Organzation Chart Slot may be upgraded to a Stormtrooper Officer at +40 points instead of selecting any other upgrades. He becomes an independent character, though unable to leave his unit until it is destroyed. Stormtrooper Officers are paragons of the martial traditions of the Scholae Exhubitos in the same manner as Commissars embody their political traditions, as as such count as having been awarded the Medallion Crimson. They benefits from the Leadership Special Rule and may purchase weapons from the armoury. (and count as Officer for doing so) Their squads always count as being equipped with a Narthecium and Improved Comms.

(i.e. 9 Stormtroopers with 1 Veteran Sergeant is a 10 strong unit, 1/3 of this rounding up is four. So two upgrade their helpistols to one-handed flamers and two - including the Sergeant - replace their ccws with melta bombs, their melta bombs with power weapons, and, since 1/3 of 4 round up is 2, their power weapons with power fists. The squad costs 157 points after upgrades.)

I like your take on Storm Troopers, wight_widow. We both took quite different paths with them.

I like the idea of the man portable multilaser. Making it an assault weapon is a little overpowered though. I would like to see it availible for the same price as a heavy bolter in the future for fire support squads, also as heavy weapons in general. Its somthing I have been thinking about a lot revently Im surprised somone else had the same idea.

@Max - it certainly would draw more distinction between what rank you give your Officer.  I hardley see anyone take an HSO and I've never seen anyone take an SO (and I can't think of why you would).

@Korpsman: TY. Pretty much you brought the points down, whereas I made them masters of cheap, redundant wargear and GSRs. It's interesting that we both gave them good "sweeper team" options, limited heavy weapon selection, and "split" foil's S6 18" helgun idea into a S6 special weapon and an Imperial Avenger Shurikat. My omission of transport options was more an oversight than anything and I rip off Tau a bit more than you. The "minilaser" looks pretty balanced IMHO - pretty much two grenade launchers stuck together - or the storm bolter from hel. (ha ha ha) You could probably bring it down to ten points though - even though it's got better effective range, it's not quite as good as a plasma vs. MEQs so it wouldn't be out of line to have it at an equivalent price.

We're testing Storm Troopers in a slightly different way.

Our original idea came from when we redid the Daemonhunter's Codex. We wanted Inquisitorial Storm Troopers to become more of a force of their own, rather than just the troops choice that wasn't Grey Knights. To this end we changed the special weapon limit to 4 rather than 2, and made Targeters give you +50% range if you didn't move (and they were attached to all guns, even special weapons).

As far as Hellguns, we took the idea from one of Kyotot's suggestions. They're S3 AP6 Rapid Fire, but can be overcharged to A6 AP4 Rapid Fire/Gets Hot! if you want to. We've yet to test it, but I am interested to see if that works.

We also added Acute Senses/Night Vision, Deep Strike, Infiltration and Ambush to their automatic rules (Ambush being the Lictor-like deployment). They're also Stubborn, as, at least in the old fluff, Storm Troopers are men who didn't make Commissar, so their bravery and faith in the Emperor is likely to be very similar to that of a Commissar, but we didn't want to make Stormies into another Fearless unit, so they got Stubborn.

BYE

Those are some damn good Storm Troopers, H.

I think if they allowed 4 specials w/ +50% range for not moving, I would have six 5-man teamns hanging out behind my gunline, all with 4 Plasmas. That's 24 Plasma shots at 36" Range. Most of my opponents are not MEQ, but that would still suck to go up against.

I'm still against the idea of having a squad's standard weapon be Str6 AP4, even if it has "Gets Hot!" In the "Fix a Useless Weapon" thread, you proposed that Hellguns be made Str4 AP6. I think that would work best as a change, since even with the overheat for Kyoto-pattern Hellguns, the Stormie is only going to die 1/12 of the time, or 1/6 of the time if he rapid-fires each turn. It's too overpowered, IMHO.

Since this is a "Guard Wishlist" thread, I'll also say that I think Shotguns would become useful if they were amended to be Str3, AP5, Assault2, Range 12", and they would become a viable option for Hardened Veterans in the counter-assault role.

I like your idea of giving them Acute Senses. I don't know about the other stuff - I think that Stubborn would work if it were tweaked to be like Mark of Chaos Undivided, where as long as the sergeant/vet sgt is alive, the squad may reroll up to one failed morale check per player turn. It would make them good, but not godly.

CK

Ahh! Corpsman! Thankyou for reminding me. The Stubborn was going to be when they took a Vet Sergeant. I forgot about that. Thankyou.

The brainstorming (no pun intended) session for Guard was a while ago and I'm just writing the Codex now, so a few details have been missed. Thanks for reminding me of that.

As far as Infiltrate/Deep Strike/Ambush - they are Special Forces and have multiple types of deployment. Having all those types makes sense to me.

And I'm not too worried about the S6 Hellgun. Storm Troopers, despite being special forces, are still inferior to Sisters and Marines. They need something for some added 'punch' as Hellguns really do suck. And I think Gets Hot! an appropriate rule for such an increase in power.

Aside from that, of all the proposed suggestions (other than the standard 'make it rending' responces) the S6/Gets Hot! idea seemed to me to be the best. Old fluff, especially in Necromunda, has Hotshot packs (what the Hellgun is based on) burning out far quicker than regular Lasgun power packs (6+ Ammo Roll in Necro compared to 2+ for a Lasgun). And while it never killed the operator, I think that the Gets Hot! is what balances it. And it's not AP3 either. It's AP4.

And as far as Shotguns go, we gave them the old Solid and Scatter shot from 2nd Ed. S4 AP4 Assault 1 for Solid and S3 AP5 Assault1/Blast/Ignores Cover Saves for Scatter. Admittedly the Scatter needs to be tested, as there are a few units (Scouts and H-Vets) that can get a LOT of Shotguns, and hitting a unit with 10 blast markers could be overpowered.

BYE

Maybe, for the scattershot on the shotgun, it would be better to simply make it Assault 3. BS4 Vets and Stormies will hit twice, which is about how many models will be hit under a small blast template, unless they're spread to their full two inches, in which case it is safe to say that the shotgun user has switched from pump to auto.

Although I cannot say I don't like the idea of making Stormies not suck with a Str6 AP4 Gets Hot! shot, I still just disagree with this particular way of going about it. Sure, I'd definitely field even more of them if a revision was made that used your way (Str3 AP6 Normal, St6 AP4 Gets Hot! for overcharge) than if they used mine (Str4 AP6 all the time), it just doesn't sit well with me.

Another interesting idea I've recently though of is making the Hellgun a Str3, AP4, Assault2 Range 24" weapon, Sort of like the Lasgun family's version of the Bolter family's Storm Bolter. That might be too effective though. I still think that Storm Troopers have the greatest potential for revision in the next Guard codex, which, sadly, probably won't be until '09 or '10, just in time for 5th Ed.

CK

Assaulty hellguns make a lot of sense considering the free grenades that stormies get. S3 AP5 assault2 24" maybe?

@Strange:
I thought about that, but then I realized that they should be like H Vets in that they get the option to be assaulty with shotguns and Officer only CC weapons for the ST Sarge. I kept the Hellgun as a rapid fire weapon simply because it makes them versatile, giving the player the option of either making them a hard shooty squad or a assaulty squad.

It's not a bad idea though, as I rather like it (it would be my second choice for a Hellgun amendment, after the Str4 AP6 Rapid Fire 24").

CK

In the Ogre Kingdoms book, it's possible to buy magic items in the form of "Big Names", honorifics that represent deeds the Ogre has done, and are reflected in a special rule, such as "Longstrider", which grants +1 to the movement profile. In the same way that medals are an appropriate type of wargear for officers, wouldn't nicknames be as appropriate a type of wargear?

Some possible examples: Buying the nickname "Wild Bull" for a platoon JO gives the officer a rep for for the intensity of his attacks. Guardsmen in his platoon replace their lasguns for lascarbines, which have almost the same stats, except they have an 18" range and are Assault 3. Buying "The Fox" for the CO allows any units held in reserve to be deployed from any table edge, not just the deployment table edge.

@Max, that's really interesting and would help add plenty of character to a guard army.

I've been playing with several Guard options for a while now -- the only one I've tried is 'Flexible Platoons,' though.

Flexible Platoons: For each full Platoon, you may take up to two Independent Guard squads. These may be standard Guard Infantry, Cityfighting Infantry Squads, or Hive Gangers.

Basic Weapons: Rather than lasguns, all guard may be equipped with a basic weapon of choice at +1pts model. This weapon may be:
Laspistol AND Close Combat Weapon (RNG: 12 STR: 3 AP: 6 Pistol)
Shotgun AND Frag Grenades (RNG: 12" STR: 3 AP: 5 Assault: 2)
Lascarbine (RNG: 18" STR: 3 AP: 6 Assault: 2)
Lasgun (RNG: 24" STR: 3 AP: 6 Rapid Fire)
Lasrifle (RNG: 30" STR: 3 AP: 5 Heavy 1)

These all go a long way to making the Guard a little more flexible -- and, hence, useful and survivable. I'd like to see better costing on Carapace Armor, too -- I hate paying the same number of points to Carapace a JO Command Squad as a standard Infantry squad.

Fixes for Ogryn are simply de rigeur -- RR are too fragile to be a useful counter assault unit most of the time for me.

Finally, I'd like to see some faster Guard options -- light tanks, option for mounting in a Rhino rather than a Chimera (after all, they are the most COMMON VEHICLE IN THE IMPERIUM) etc.

-Adso

Quote from Scipio - "Well Max, thats great...you took a unit that I like to field and well replaced it with a crappy unit that I wouldn't touch.  I think they tried the 2 man teams in Codex: Catachan last edition and I don't recall too many people fielding those type of sniper teams...in fact I can't think of anyone.  I suppose if you wanted two man sniper teams you could field special weapon teams currently but I don't know anyone who does that either."

Actually, I was very saddened when they got rid of the option of taking death world snipers in a regular guard force.  I took nine snipers as elites.  With a 2+ to hit, plus rerolls to would due to deadly toxins - they were great to have.  I had nine units that needed to be targeted separately in order to kill them, when they typically had a 3+ invulnerable save due to cover.  There was also the potential of nine separate pin checks a turn.  The catachan snipers were simply awesome. 

The funny thing is my biggest argument about me playing a cheesy IG force came from my armies that took nine deathworld snipers of them. 

On the subject of faster options, the FW Guntractor was a bit of a letdown. Forget towing artillery, what we wanted was a Guard Trukk!

Possibly make Chimmies default open topped at 60 points, gains hull lasguns and option of hull weapon for free with roof? I think they work fine as they are for a light tank/AFV option. Allowing them to be taken as a skateboard would give the Guard a solid light assault transport.

Wight....why stick with Chimerae? Rhinos are so common all over the Imperium that the Adeptus Arbites use them, for the Emperor's sake. It always struck me as odd the Guard didn't have them as an option...maybe with the option for a passenger-fired heavy bolter if you need a 'light tank.'

It looks like your wish has been granted, Wight: http://www.dakkadakka.com/Forums/tabid/56/forumid/6/postid/124474/view/topic/Default.aspx - there's even a bolt-on big shoota! However, if we want to see more infantry carriers, Guard need more reasons to want to be carried around. Units like Stormtroopers and H-Vets carry assault and rapid-fire weaponry a go-go, but standard Guard squads usually carry Heavy weaponry, which doesn't like being moved. Perhaps Iron Fist sqauds and squads with the Mechanised Doctrine should be able forgo the heavy weapon in favour of another special? Perhaps at a higher cost for both specials (to prevent special weapon spammage)?

Frankly, my Guard want to get around so I can have them sieze objectives without paying through the nose for it!

Also, if Guard have the kind of regimental differences shown in the Doctrines, why don't they have the same operational diversity? A Guard 'light mechanized' army with a lot of shotguns, grenade launchers, and Rhinos should be more feasible.

Also, the cost of Chimerae make Mechanized all too expensive as a doctrine -- if there were a cheaper transport option, it might become more useful. You know, give Chimerae to the important squads and characters, but the grunts risk it in Rhinos.

-Adso

Posted By BrotherAdso on 12/07/2006 6:10 PM

Also, the cost of Chimerae make Mechanized all too expensive as a doctrine -- if there were a cheaper transport option, it might become more useful. You know, give Chimerae to the important squads and characters, but the grunts risk it in Rhinos.

-Adso

Or your firefight troops (ST's, 4 flamer guys etc.)

The Storm Troopers should be more akin to Delta Force or Seals, that are capable, and equipped to do missions that lesser troops wouldn't have a chance at.  Vets should be more like a Marine Recon squad. 

In this respect, I think that ST's should have a slightly higher base cost as long as they have a better Hellgun (many of the ideas stated sound pretty good), carapace, Deep Strike/Infiltrate included and the ability to customize their weapons choices. They should still be able to take two special weapons, but the sarge should be able to take officer only gear.  Each individual member of the squad should be able to switch out his hellgun for a shotgun, pay extra for a bolter, and one should have access to a demolition charge.  Another nice touch would be a fast, open-topped buggy vehicle that could hold five of them ( Maybe the salamander already does that, I don't know its rules). 

As previously stated, transport versatility is something the guard could really use.  I run Chimeras(rarely) with a heavy bolter, multi-laser, and storm bolters (built 'em pre-stubber) and they run me about 100pts and are really fragile.  This vehicle is about as dangerous as a razorback, but costs much more.  It should be able to have an autocannon turret and be cheaper.

I think the other thing that needs to happen is a nerf on skimmers or better  concealment protection.  The ability to always reduce to glancing hits is unfair in my opinion, especially since the concealment save for standard armor is worthless.  The way it was before with the auto glance if half the vehicle was covered is alright, but I think a 4+ save against all hits would also work.  The profusion of lascannons, lances, railguns, gauss weapons and 2+ save Tyranid monsters means that standard armor needs a boost.

On top of that a points reduction for heavy weapons would be nice, and it would also be cool if mortars got bumped up to St 5 ap 5 small template, and the Griffon was put back in the codex.  This would make the old 3 Griffon and Mortar squad option viable again.

As far as Rhinos for IG go, I believe it's more likely that GW will green-light the Centaur than permit Rhinos, as it's all (to them) a question of theme. While the Rhino may be common as muck, the Chimera chassis and all variants thereof provides a consistent theme for the IG, which the Rhino chassis would break.

I think hellguns should sort of be like the first step between lasguns and multilasers. If we assume a "single-barreled" multilaser would be something like Str6 AP6 Heavy 1, then a hellgun should be something like Str4 AP6 24" Rapid Fire.

Shotguns should be Str3 AP- Assault 2, reroll misses.

Ripper guns should count as heavy close combat weapons.

SamWise I am going to have to give you an Amen Brother on the Skimmer comment. They are currently just to dang powerful. Skimmers should be highly manauverable, and fragile as heck. Instead they are highly manuverable, and the most resilant tanks in the game. The easiest fix is to match the fast move rule with the cove rule. Penning hits are downgraded to glancing on a 4+.

The last thing 40K needs is more D6 rolls Foil. The idiotic 'obscurement' rules are one of the chief reasons I hate 4th Ed.

I much prefer our version of Hull Down/Skimmers Moving Fast/Smoke Launchers/etc.:

All hits count as glancing, but if you roll a 6 when penetrating, it counts as a Penetrating Hit (assuming you could penetrate normally) For example:

Railgun vs Falcon moving over 6" (or 8" in our rules - we made vehicles faster than men on foot).

Current Rules - Glance on a 2+
Our Rules - Glance on a 2-5, Penetrate on a 6.

 -- OR --

Multi-Laser vs Falcon moving over 6":

Current Rules - Glance on a 6
Our Rules - Glance on a 6

It is the healthy medium between 3rd Ed's 'absolute' Hull Down rules, that always made it glancing, and the silly 4+ 'save' vehicles get.

BYE

Or have the cover provide a negative modifer to opponent shooting, but I know, for some reason GW views negative modifiers like the Great Vampcow despite doing them in most other games it makes.

So HBMC as opposed to a simple 4+ to downgrade, we have a:

We normally that would pen, but since you rolled a 5 that glances, but if you rolled a 6 and the vehical was moving more than 6 inches, as opposed to a vehical moving 5 inches but then penned on a 5, but now penned on a 6 but glanced on a 5 unless it is hull down or smoked, and then it would be glanced on a 6 but since its the third tuesday of december, and you are firing at an oblique angle but wait its the second tuesday, and you are only firing a strength 6 gun vs armor 12, but in this case you are getting a side armor shot as you are in the right quadrant but with line of sight to only the front armor... .... ....

KISS keep it simple, keep it clear, keep it easy to understand, and most of all keep the rules as identical to each other as posible. What happens when you shoot at a tank that is obscured, 4+ to downgrade. What happens when you shoot at a skimmer moving fast, 4+ to downgrade.

What if skimmers just had a different damage table? For example:

Skimmer Glancing
1 - Shaken
2 - Stunned
3 - Immobilized + Shaken (Destroyed if moving over 6")
4 - Weapon Destroyed + Shaken
5 - Vehicle Destroyed
6 - Vehicle Destroyed (Roll Skimmer Penetrating)

Skimmer Penetrating
1 - (Roll Skimmer Glancing)
2 - Immobilized + Stunned (Destroyed if moving over 6")
3 - Weapon Destroyed + Stunned
4 - Vehicle Destroyed
5 - Vehicle Explodes
6 - Vehicle Annihilated

It makes them much more vulnerable to glancing hits, which they take a lot more. The Skimmer Penetrating could always be tossed for the regular Penetrating instead, since skimmers that are caught in this position are likely to be fried, since they're lightweights in terms of armor. Just an idea, though.

CK

I actually really like that idea Corpsman. A nastier damage table would help things.

Posted By foil7102 on 12/12/2006 6:01 AM
We normally that would pen, but since you rolled a 5 that glances, but if you rolled a 6 and the vehical was moving more than 6 inches, as opposed to a vehical moving 5 inches but then penned on a 5, but now penned on a 6 but glanced on a 5 unless it is hull down or smoked, and then it would be glanced on a 6 but since its the third tuesday of december, and you are firing at an oblique angle but wait its the second tuesday, and you are only firing a strength 6 gun vs armor 12, but in this case you are getting a side armor shot as you are in the right quadrant but with line of sight to only the front armor... 

Oh please. *rolls eyes*

It's reduced all penetration vs Hull Down to one dice roll, rather than introducing 'saves' for vehicles that don't save them and only work half the time. The rule is no more complicated than the rules for Rending, so don't exagerate things just to prove a point. You sound like the kind've person who goes mad at the mere mention of 'modifiers' with the way you're speaking.

Furthermore, we've been playing this way for over a year, testing our rules constantly, and this system works. It takes the infallible Hull Down rules from 3rd Ed (that were unbalanced, and made penetrating hits few and far between) and creates a way to beat Hull Down - all with a single dice roll.

BYE

Hear hear! I've been on the receiving end of 6's for AP and inflicting them; it really works and is very straightforward once you get the concept (if I could penetrate normally, I can do so on a 6 for AP all the time).

How is that terribly complex?

I just want you to imagine that you have two brand new players with nothing but a rule book, how would you write that rule so that there would be absolutly no confusion? It is one thing to have the person who wrote the rule teaching it to you. It is another to make it clear to some one with no prior knowledge. Call it a challange, can you write that rule in a way that is both consice and can can not be misinterpreted? My issue is not that it is a bad idea. I just think that it is overly complex

It has actually been something I've been thinking about more generally; I've spent the past day and a half (on holidays!) rewriting Codex Eldar Revisited in light of the 4th edition Codex, and examining ways of making things clearer.

Are you talking about the rulebook itself of HBMC's description of it?

I suppose the easiest way to get it across is that 6's for Armour Penetration always Penetrate (as long as you could Penetrate normally).

The only complicating thing is to describe the Lascannon vs AV 12 as opposed to the Multilaser vs AV 12; one can't simply say that that 6's always penetrate (or Multilasers will become the king of kiling Land Raiders!)

Also, our rules are designed for a somewhat higher level of player; more options usually involves somewhat more complexity (ie. if you can only ever shoot at one target at a time, very simple but limited; shooting at multiple targets by its very nature needs more rules in order for it to happen).

I suspect that we'll be putting up revised versions of the various Codices and rulebook soon enough; more than happy for you (and other Dakkaites) to have a look through and give us comments :-)

What about vs a smoked vehical?

milesteg, I think you misread H's ruleset for Penetrating on 6. If the weapon is eligible, then a roll of a 6 for armor penetration will penetrate. However, in the case of a Multilaser, if the weapon is not eligible to penetrate under normal cirucumstances (versus AV12), then a roll of a 6 means nothing. H explains it better than I, so I'd recommen re-reading his previous posts.

CK

Another option would be to give ST's demo charge options. That would give them them some extra quick burst firepower and separate them more from hardened vets.

Senior Officers don't generally get a look-in on IG lists - either a JO+Honorifica is picked, or an HSO is picked as the leadership stat is generally more important than the combat stats. Even if JOs were relegated to Platoons only, HSOs would continue to be a much better buy than SOs, so they still wouldn't get a look-in. Perhaps a way to make SOs more valuable would be to grant SOs a leadership of 9, but give the HSO a few extra leadership boosts, such as boost the Ld bubble to Telepathic Order range, or have the Company Standard for free or somesuch.

Ummm....Corpsman, I think you've misunderstood what I was getting at (wasn't making the point you are suggesting). Indeed, I am very familiar with HBMC's point as I helped him write the rules in the first place (we're friends in the reality of the materium, as opposed to the Warp that is Dakka...)

Sorry about the confusion, but I've been playing this rule for the past 3 years or so :-)

Smoke Vehicles, Hull Down and skimmers moving fast are all treated the same - all can be beaten on a roll of 6.

BYE

Posted By milesteg on 12/14/2006 3:38 PM
Ummm....Corpsman, I think you've misunderstood what I was getting at 

Ah. Indeed, I did misunderstand you. Now that I've re-read it, I see the point you are making.

With regard to your original statement, I do agree that this paradox of 6 equalling Penetrating hit is a bit of a paradox. I'm not sure if you mentioned it, but this would meant that a storm of Lasgun fire, when rolling for armor penetration, would become a super-effective (as well as incredibly cheap) method of killing enemy armor. I'm assuming that you have a provision in place to nullify that, but it would be entertaining nonetheless.

"My 130 guardsmen are all shooting their lasguns at your Terminator-filled Land Raider Crusader...looks like 67 hits, and...ooooh, that's 11 penetrating hits, pal. Good luck on that one."

"waaaaah..."

I'm very interested in seeing how your group handles the rewriting of the Imperial Guard.

H has been talking about a bunch of ideas that I very much like. I definitely plan on trying out the ruleset when you all finish it.

CK

Posted By Corpsman_of_Krieg on 12/14/2006 5:01 PM

With regard to your original statement, I do agree that this paradox of 6 equalling Penetrating hit is a bit of a paradox. I'm not sure if you mentioned it, but this would meant that a storm of Lasgun fire, when rolling for armor penetration, would become a super-effective (as well as incredibly cheap) method of killing enemy armor. I'm assuming that you have a provision in place to nullify that, but it would be entertaining nonetheless.

I believe that that would be in his first description of the rule.

"All hits count as glancing, but if you roll a 6 when penetrating, it counts as a Penetrating Hit (assuming you could penetrate normally)"

@Buoyancy
That would mean that if I rapid-fired with 6 Guardsmen, I would statistically get 6 hits and 1 penetration. FROM A LASGUN. So does that mean that my Land Raider Crusader has to fear the lowly firearm of the Guard?!?

I don't think that makes sense. In fact, I'm sure I'm missing something here. Please help me out of my confused state.

CK

I'm not sure what problem you're now having with the quite clearly laid out rule, since you apparently understood it in your first reply.  You seem to be talking past each other, considering that Milesteg said:

"I suppose the easiest way to get it across is that 6's for Armour Penetration always Penetrate (as long as you could Penetrate normally)."

To which you responded by stating:

"If the weapon is eligible, then a roll of a 6 for armor penetration will penetrate."

Which both have identical meanings, and both fit exactly with the original description of the proposed rule.

I'm not sure what is needed to fix Guard is an overall revision of the vehicle rules....it still seems a little bit more flexibility in the organization and armament in the list, and better defined roles for certain units, it what we need. Also, i think we identified tweaking some doctrines -- for example, paying less for smaller squads with per-squad doctrines, etc.

All this talk of general rules revisions for vehicles to help a weak Guard is like trying to fix a bent bike tyre with a sledgehammer.

-Adso

@buoyancy.

I understand what I missed now. It slipped my mind in writing that post, that only eligible weapons can penetrate on a 6. I thought for a second that suddenly all weapons were going to have a sort of rending ability (on the penetration roll instead of to hit).

CK

Posted By Corpsman_of_Krieg on 12/14/2006 5:01 PM

"My 130 guardsmen are all shooting their lasguns at your Terminator-filled Land Raider Crusader...looks like 67 hits, and...ooooh, that's 11 penetrating hits, pal. Good luck on that one."

"waaaaah..."

You're still misunderstanding. Rolls of 6 do not equal a Penetrating Hit. Rolls of 6 beat Hull Down/Smoked/Skimmers Moving Fast/Kustom Force Fieldz/etc. Aside from that nothing has changed, so you still have to equal or beat the armour value, it's just that if you beat the Armour Value with a 6, you Penetrate regardless of Hull Down/Smoke/etc.

BYE

And all this goes just to prove my point. Like I said, I like the idea, just think it is a little more complicated than it needs to be.

A target vehical does not benefit from any special rules or protections, when a 6 is rolled to penetrate its armor.

(not sure if this is any good, as you could argue that an eldar tank would not get to use spirit stones, or a av12 tank could not use extra armor when hit by a strength 6 gun)

I've fixed a bike tire with a sledgehammer.  It's a bumpy ride now but works ok. :thumbs up:  

An all Rough Rider Doctrine would be cool.  If for +20pts any unit could be upgraded to Rough Riders and have lances I might have to start a Polish Cavalry army.

Another thing I definitely feel would add to the Guard overall would be a fast, light vehicle that could transport 5 people.  It could be open topped like a jeep, but also be amphibius.  This would make command squads more useful.  If they could drive 12" jump out wherever, unleash melta/flamer hell and then charge, people might actually be afraid of us. Plus, it would be a cheap mechanized option.  I hate how chimeras can't be used in this way unless you spin them around and expose their rear to penetrating hits. ")  

Samwise look to the new centaur assault carrier from foregworld. I don't think its on themain page yet but it carts around 5 guys.

 

The scary thing about the Centaur is that it's a fast vehicle. So for about 50 points, you get a Rhino with double-move distance and a 3-Melta Vet Squad pouring out. Good for Guard, bad for the baddies.

@H: I understand now. I was confused (hugely), but that is what happens when we're reading words on a page and not listening to the nuance of a person's voice. Now that I understand, I have to agree with you and say that this is a good system that would beat down the old one pretty well without making anti-speeder units amazing at their job.

CK

Wait I got it. Perfect change to skimmers.

Skimmers may not move on the turn they disembark troops.

If I could ammend that a little bit, I'd say skimmers shouldn't get the autoglance if they disembarked troops the previous turn.  This would reflect that they are vulnerable while unloading their cargo.

We actually address that point...

In our rules, vehicles move 8-16-24" rather than 12-24".

Standard (non-fast) can move 8" or 16". At 8", they can fire all main and all defensive weaponry (at different targets in most circumstances). Transported units can get out, shoot and assault.

However, for skimmers to be counted as moving fast, they must be moving faster than 8" (not 6").

This is important as if a vehicle moves more than 8" up to 16", a standard vehicle may only fire its defensive weapon and troops can still disembark, but can only shoot; no assaulting.

Fast vehicles can also move over 16" ro 24" and still fire all defensive (as it should be) or move up to 16" and fiire all main....

What is the point? If a Banshee unit wants to assault from the transport in the same turn, the Wave Serpent does not count as moving fast.

Significant trade-off, but the system works. Vehicles need to move in 8's rather than 6's though so that you actually get more distance from a transport (yet it is not super-scary Rhino rushing death....).

And just for completeness, infantry can disembark from an open-topped at up to 16", shoot and assault.

Yes, means that DE Raiders are scary. But the same can be penetrated on 6's by S5 and above (Pulse Rifles!)