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Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/18 15:11:21


Post by: t


At the request of the mods I started a fresh thread:

The issue of time exploiting in tournament games has been getting a lot of attention again lately and TO's are already looking into how to best integrate chess clocks into their events. Found below is a condensed version of the open source rules discussed in the previous thread. TO's who want to use chess clocks to enhance their tournaments and eliminate time exploiting can simply copy and paste the rules below.

Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0

When does time start?


Time starts when the first pregame action or dice roll happens.

Rules:

1. Each player is responsible for their own time. It is a player’s right but not their obligation to make sure that their time is being handled properly.

2. In the assault phase, a player may always choose to forego rolling to determine the results of a combat, starting with the player whose turn it is. If they choose to save their time this way, their opponent may decide the results of the assault. This can range from leaving the enemy unit unharmed, up to removing the entire unit involved in the combat. This must be decided before any rolls are made in the combat.

3. Any major rule dispute results in a paused time scenario. The time is to remain paused until a formal judge is called to the table and resolves the dispute.

4. If a player’s time runs out, they may not perform any more actions. The only exception is if they are in the middle of moving a unit, they may finish so that the unit is placed legally on the board. As an example, this can include moving a unit in the movement phase, finishing moving a unit into assault (note they will not be able to attack), or consolidating a unit. Any other action is immediately stopped.

5. If a player runs out of time they may only perform the following actions:

a. Involuntary moves to keep them one inch from the enemy, such as reacting to a tank shock.
b. Pile in moves.
c. Making saving throws, and taking a leadership test if required to.
d. Scoring objectives that they have already achieved or already hold.

The most important rule is rule number 1. This is the most important rule because it puts time in your control, and fairly allocates time while players interact. It is each player's right to pass the time to his opponent whenever they are making an action or spending time making a decision.
Some examples of this are as follows:

1. You put 20 wounds on a unit containing multiple independent characters and models with different saving throws. Pass the clock to your opponent so he can make his look out sir rolls and saving throws.

2. Your opponent must make 3 leadership tests after the shooting phase is over. Pass the clock to your opponent while he makes these tests and moves the units which failed.

3. You destroy a vehicle and your opponent has a large squad inside that he wants positioned just right. Pass the clock to him while he arranges his models.

4. You do 5 power fist wounds and 5 regular wounds to a unit that contains independent characters that might be affected by instant death. Pass the clock to your opponent while he decides what saves to take on which models.

These examples are limited but show the basic concept. You manage your own time and it is up to you to pass the clock. If you burn your own time, it is not your opponents fault.

When does the game end?


Games end naturally depending on random game length rolls or at the start of a new turn when neither player has greater than 5:00 minutes of time left on the clock.


As always feedback is welcome and I will try and answer any questions that people have.

 Filename Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0.docx [Disk] Download
 Description Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0
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Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/18 15:46:07


Post by: RiTides


I had a question on your first rule. Sometimes, mandatory things will happen in a player's turn that would benefit their opponent - for instance, a unit continuing to fall back. So, can you really have a blanket rule that says a player can always pass a turn?

An even more game-impacting example is, let's say a close combat is going on that your opponent wants to end so that he can shoot at your unit. If you're allowed to pass that phase (or any action within it) it could be a huge advantage to you.

So, I think you might want to amend that part. I can see putting in a note that a player can simply forgo any non-mandatory elements of their turn (just like they could in any game - for instance, none of my units are going to shoot this turn!) but they should not be allowed to forgo mandatory phases / actions / etc, such as ongoing combats.

There's a few grammar items that could use cleaning up too, and you'd want to have some groups playtest it in different places if possible. But as a draft it is interesting to me - the examples are good, as well.



Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/18 21:24:53


Post by: kronk


t wrote:
At the request of the mods I started a fresh thread:

The issue of time exploiting in tournament games has been getting a lot of attention again lately and TO's are already looking into how to best integrate chess clocks into their events..


No TOs aren't. Citation needed from you.

This is just some chess clock fetish you have.

This recent post is just as cumbersome and unnecessary as your thread from a year ago.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/19 00:36:58


Post by: t


 RiTides wrote:
I had a question on your first rule. Sometimes, mandatory things will happen in a player's turn that would benefit their opponent - for instance, a unit continuing to fall back. So, can you really have a blanket rule that says a player can always pass a turn?

An even more game-impacting example is, let's say a close combat is going on that your opponent wants to end so that he can shoot at your unit. If you're allowed to pass that phase (or any action within it) it could be a huge advantage to you.

So, I think you might want to amend that part. I can see putting in a note that a player can simply forgo any non-mandatory elements of their turn (just like they could in any game - for instance, none of my units are going to shoot this turn!) but they should not be allowed to forgo mandatory phases / actions / etc, such as ongoing combats.

There's a few grammar items that could use cleaning up too, and you'd want to have some groups playtest it in different places if possible. But as a draft it is interesting to me - the examples are good, as well.



You make an excellent points thank your for the questions, feedback like yours is what makes open sourcing work.

The fall back issue has never come up in any test game because no one has ever passed an entire turn and I can see how an exploiter might try and take advantage of the pass rule to their advantage in the assault phase. The rule in spirit is like you described, its intended to allow a player low on time the ability to pass trivial actions but not forgo mandatory negative obligations like falling back. I don't think the rules should be to cumbersome but I do think they should be harsh on people that try and exploit them.

This wording should be more clear.

A player can always pass a phase or action during their player turn but if they do all mandatory rolls during that phase, such as morale checks from falling back, are considered to fail and any mandatory actions as a result of these failures must be performed. Additionally, if a player decides to pass their assault phase their units are considered unable to fight and are destroyed regardless of any special rules or circumstances.

Think that covers it?

As for the grammar, I am horrible at it and I always have been. Any critique in that area is greatly appreciated.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/19 01:46:03


Post by: Peregrine


You say that major rules questions pause both clocks, but what about minor rules questions? Whose clock runs when a "what's that unit's stat line" or "is there LOS" type of question comes up?


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/19 12:57:49


Post by: kronk


What if it's my opponent's turn and he is in the movement phase, but I need to take a bathroom break? What if he refuse to move his minis when I am gone? What if I told him to move the minis while I was gone?

Whose clock is used when I complain about him using my clock?


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/19 14:28:21


Post by: t


 Peregrine wrote:
You say that major rules questions pause both clocks, but what about minor rules questions? Whose clock runs when a "what's that unit's stat line" or "is there LOS" type of question comes up?


Great question, so during the normal course of the game you have the right but not the obligation to pass the clock. During a normal functioning game there is no reason to pass the clock for small issues like you described. The amount of time used for these types of minor questions should be irrelevant throughout the course of a tournament game. However if you have a opponent that is unprepared, unsporting, excessively argumentative or that you feel is trying to exploit the system then you have the right to pass them the clock. This is what makes the clock so great, you control your own time and an opponent cannot waste it.

A quick examples of when I would expect the clock to be passed to me from my opponent for los:

If there is a tight call and I have to go to my opponents side of the table to see for myself, then I would fully expect to have to do this on my own time, every time. But ultimately it is up to my opponent to make that decisions and pass me the clock because he controls his own time.

A note about disputes:

If a dispute escalates and cannot be resolved sportingly and civilly then pause the clock and call a judge. Hopefully the judge can deescalate the situation, but if they are unable to then it has nothing to do with the clock and everything to do with you and your opponent and it will be up to the judges on how to proceed.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/19 14:41:36


Post by: Audustum


I think you've over complicated this. Even if we use chess clocks, we should just follow the chess rule: if you run out of time you lose. All this voluntary/involuntary stuff just muddies the water and is unnecessary.

If a player runs out of time, the tournament should proceed as if that player was tabled and use whatever rules it has for that.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/19 15:09:37


Post by: t


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Audustum wrote:
I think you've over complicated this. Even if we use chess clocks, we should just follow the chess rule: if you run out of time you lose. All this voluntary/involuntary stuff just muddies the water and is unnecessary.

If a player runs out of time, the tournament should proceed as if that player was tabled and use whatever rules it has for that.


I agree, having time just end is much cleaner but it is also much harsher. These are just baseline rules, If a TO wants to tweak any rule I encourage them to. TO's ultimately decide what is best for their event.

At the end of the day a competitive tournaments will be greatly enhanced by using chess clocks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 kronk wrote:
What if it's my opponent's turn and he is in the movement phase, but I need to take a bathroom break? What if he refuse to move his minis when I am gone? What if I told him to move the minis while I was gone?

Whose clock is used when I complain about him using my clock?


"What if it's my opponent's turn and he is in the movement phase, but I need to take a bathroom break? What if he refuse to move his minis when I am gone? What if I told him to move the minis while I was gone?"

This is a sportsmanship question and has nothing to do with chess clocks. I would suggest starting a sportsmanship thread and see what people think about taking bathroom breaks during tournament games.

Your second question is very general and I don't really understand what you are asking. However, I will try and answer it the best I can.

"Whose clock is used when I complain about him using my clock?"

It is not possible for your opponent to use your time, It is 100% under your control. If they are using your time then you are letting them and you should be OK with that and have nothing to complain about.

Hope these answers help.

As for your previous comment:

"This is just some chess clock fetish you have. "

Fetish? What?I hope this Is this meant to be a joke. The whole intention of this thread is to help the tournament community solve the rampant time exploit problem, while treating both players equally and fairly and having all games end naturally. Chess clocks solve all of these issues elegantly and take nothing from the tournament game. The reason I feel that these issues need to be solved is because it will help the tournament scene grow and prosper.

In life I choose to part of and work towards solutions, not problems, that is just the way I am.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/20 07:58:27


Post by: Peregrine


t wrote:
During a normal functioning game there is no reason to pass the clock for small issues like you described.


Of course there is, and that reason is simple: all the "small issues" add up to larger issues, especially if I'm creating as many small issues as possible to force you to spend clock time resolving them.

However if you have a opponent that is unprepared, unsporting, excessively argumentative or that you feel is trying to exploit the system then you have the right to pass them the clock.


So you don't have a system where it is indisputably clear which player's clock should be running. If there's some arbitrary line where it's "too much" and you get to pass the clock then it's no longer a system that runs itself, the players have to make ongoing decisions about what is "fair". And hey, you think you're going to pass me the clock while we're disputing something? Hell no, I'm passing it right back to you so you can spend more of your own time. Now we get to argue about whose clock should be running, and if you dare to pass the clock to me I'm going to immediately pass it back. Call a judge, but you'd better make sure your own clock is running while you do it.

If there is a tight call and I have to go to my opponents side of the table to see for myself, then I would fully expect to have to do this on my own time, every time.


IOW, I'm going to call LOS in my favor every single time, no matter how obviously it's in your favor, and force you to spend time off your clock coming around to my side of the table to dispute it. Alternatively, if you're concerned about your clock running out, you can just give me my choice of LOS in every situation, no matter how obviously absurd, because you can't afford to spend time disputing it. And while we're at it I'm going to be getting better rules for all of my units, since I don't think you can afford to spend clock time flipping through my codex to prove me wrong.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/20 15:52:03


Post by: Slipspace


If TOs are having a hard time fitting games in under the time limit (and this appears to be conjecture on your part anyway), they have 2 options:

1. Extend the time limit. This isn't always practical.

2. Reduce the size of armies. I'd love to see this at more tournaments. Over the last 5-10 years I've seen a steady rise in the average tournament points size and I'm not sure it's healthy for the game.

But I digress. One thing I'm sure isn't a solution is developing a convoluted set of extra rules and regulations to try to shoehorn chess clocks into a game not built for them.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/20 19:05:48


Post by: Matt1785


it works great for Warmachine. Difference being that in war machine there are no armour saves to be made. If it weren't for saving throws I would tend to agree that it would work well. The way the editions have gone with closest model and multiple saves one at a time kind of rolling it just doesn't seem like a good fit for 40K. If you ever try it I'd be interested in how it went and player feedback though.

I think a lowering in points is the best option for time.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/20 19:19:17


Post by: t


@peregrine

"So you don't have a system where it is indisputably clear which player's clock should be running. If there's some arbitrary line where it's "too much" and you get to pass the clock then it's no longer a system that runs itself, the players have to make ongoing decisions about what is "fair". And hey, you think you're going to pass me the clock while we're disputing something? Hell no, I'm passing it right back to you so you can spend more of your own time. Now we get to argue about whose clock should be running, and if you dare to pass the clock to me I'm going to immediately pass it back. Call a judge, but you'd better make sure your own clock is running while you do it."

It is very clear, you control your own time. There is nothing to argue about, passing is expected and becomes second nature. What your describing here is a severe sportsmanship issue and not a clock issue at all. When a judge is called the clock is paused so no one is on the clock. The judge can deal with severe sportsmanship issues in the way they see fit.

"IOW, I'm going to call LOS in my favor every single time, no matter how obviously it's in your favor, and force you to spend time off your clock coming around to my side of the table to dispute it. Alternatively, if you're concerned about your clock running out, you can just give me my choice of LOS in every situation, no matter how obviously absurd, because you can't afford to spend time disputing it. And while we're at it I'm going to be getting better rules for all of my units, since I don't think you can afford to spend clock time flipping through my codex to prove me wrong."

Again this is not a clock issue, the first part is a severe sportsmanship issue and border line cheating. The second part is just flat out cheating. Neither of these abhorrent tactics would work anyway because it would just result in a paused clock. I would expect a player cheating in this manor to be dealt with harshly by the judges. Another beautiful way that clocks enhance tournaments is that this type of preposterous behavior is easily identified by the judges. The reason for this is because the clock on that game will be way behind the rest of the field due to exorbitant amounts of pausing. As outrages as these examples are, they still would not be able to abuse the system and waste your opponents time.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/20 21:53:20


Post by: Peregrine


You can't just handwave away criticism with "that's a sportsmanship issue". If your clock rule only works when everyone has "good sportsmanship" and nobody tries to break the system then it isn't a viable tournament rule.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/20 23:04:56


Post by: kestral


I appreciate the spirit of the idea, but I'd rather fix the game than play on the clock.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/20 23:23:46


Post by: Chrysis


So your issue is "time exploitation" i.e. poor sportsmanship. Your solution is a vague set of rules for using a chess clock, which can be easily exploited by poor sportsmen. Your solution to that problem is to have a judge come and make rulings on the sportsmanship.

Why not cut out the middle-man so to speak and have the judge come and fix the original problem and ditch the clocks?


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/21 13:19:08


Post by: rawne2510


Is the amount of time each person is given a set value of arbitrary depending on the army they use.

A baronial court will play much quicker than GSC but are you going to restrict the amount of time the horde player has because the amount of time each player has should be fair and even.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/21 14:19:35


Post by: Trasvi


I don't think "time exploitation" is an issue. The number of people playing deliberately slow to harm their opponent must pale in comparison to the people attempting to play armies of essentially 2500-3000pts in 2 1/2 hours.

Chess clocks work for Chess where there's no interaction. They work OK for warmachine, where there's only a dozen times per game you give the clock to your opponent.

The problem with clocks in 40k is the amount of stuff I can make you do in my turn, that runs down your clock without you having a choice.

Or technically you could have a choice. You could not intercept. Not overwatch. Not deny. Not take look out sirs. Not attack back in combat... and lose with a lot of time on your clock.

I completely agree with the ideas that, in a fair game, both players have equal time. Both players should construct armies that they know they can play in the time limit. Yes, it sucks that a lot of people can't do that with a Orc horde, but its about being considerate to your opponent.
HOWEVER, 40k is not the game to do that with. An army that you can play in an hour vs one opponent can take you two hours vs the next, through no fault of your own.

If you're serious about chess clocks, look up the Warmachine steamroller rules. Make it simple. If you time out, you lose, thats it. The clock stops only when a TO presses stop.



Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/21 15:56:12


Post by: amanita


We've played games where only the movement phase was timed (since the other player has less interaction) and instead of a turn by turn basis we've had a running total for the entire game, such as 45 minutes or an hour. We tried it just so people would be conscious of wasting time during their turn. It actually adds to the sense of urgency without too much penalty. If one moves quickly enough for a few turns there will be more time for later turns and tougher decisions.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/21 16:50:41


Post by: Frazzled


 kestral wrote:
I appreciate the spirit of the idea, but I'd rather fix the game than play on the clock.


If I am a player and in several HtH's that are continuing from the other player that I will lose it would behoove me to take my sweet time and never get to the HtH portion.

And I would do that all the time, every time.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/21 17:35:22


Post by: doktor_g


t,

Im playing drop pods, youre playing imperial knights. I drop around you and wall you in with my open doors. Finish my turn.

Your time starts.
Your movement phase
You try to walk over my DP doors.
I say no you cant.
Rules dispute. Whose time counts down? Yours?
Whats to keep me from lawyering your time clock rules with douchey disputes?

Or conversely. Its my turn. I move all my devs 10". You say no you cant. They only move 6". I respond I believe you are mistaken. Dispute. Whose time counts down there? Mine?

Also Autofails work to certain army's advantages. Hell its better than hit and run in some cases.

More rules = more lawyers.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/21 17:45:08


Post by: Talizvar


I played Bolt Action with a chess clock.
We had an hour each for our time.
So we knew we needed about 10 minutes for 6 turns, it was about a minute and a few seconds per unit... whew!
There was the option to pause for major rules look-up, we both elected to donate time (or the other guy look-up while the active player keeps doing what he can).
It was good for keeping to some measure of schedule and helped me quickly develop good efficiency habits.
I would say it will not protect against people who will "game" the rules themselves but sure helps a tournament keep some measure of schedule.

It is nice to post some rules but seem a bit cumbersome.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/21 17:55:39


Post by: PanzerLeader


As someone who has run tournaments for a long time, I'd look at these rules and ask "Do the perceived benefits outweigh the additional complexity?" In this case, I think the answer is no. You provide an inelegant solution that can be gamed in multiple ways (as other posters have demonstrated) for no clear benefit given the dozens of match up combinations.

I much prefer Fennel's simple solution: at the 15 minutes left mark, start a timer for each player. They each get 7 minutes and 30 seconds to play. Once you are out of time, you may no longer take any actions. This means that your opponent may take an extra half turn if he has time left and you do not. It speeds up the end of the game to critical actions and implicitly penalizes slow play.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/22 05:34:08


Post by: t


 doktor_g wrote:
t,

Im playing drop pods, youre playing imperial knights. I drop around you and wall you in with my open doors. Finish my turn.

Your time starts.
Your movement phase
You try to walk over my DP doors.
I say no you cant.
Rules dispute. Whose time counts down? Yours?
Whats to keep me from lawyering your time clock rules with douchey disputes?

Or conversely. Its my turn. I move all my devs 10". You say no you cant. They only move 6". I respond I believe you are mistaken. Dispute. Whose time counts down there? Mine?

Also Autofails work to certain army's advantages. Hell its better than hit and run in some cases.

More rules = more lawyers.


"Your time starts.
Your movement phase
You try to walk over my DP doors.
I say no you cant.
Rules dispute. Whose time counts down? Yours?"

Well since I have read the FAQ and know that you can I would just move my model. If you are insistent then I would pause the clock and call a judge. None of my clock would be wasted.

"Whats to keep me from lawyering your time clock rules with douchey disputes?"

Its really simple, you cant, I would either pass the clock to you or pause it and call a judge. You have the right under these rules to pass the clock its really very simple and clear.

"Or conversely. Its my turn. I move all my devs 10". You say no you cant. They only move 6". I respond I believe you are mistaken. Dispute. Whose time counts down there? Mine"

This is not an example of a rules dispute this is straight cheating. None of my time would be wasted but some of yours would. As soon as you make the absurd comment that infantry can move 10" indicating that the move was not a mistake. I would pause the clock and get a judge. If you continued to cheat in this manor, the judge I assume would stay at the table and most likely toss you from the tournament.

I really recommend that you just try the rules, they work very well.

Some Great news.

The Rampager League, Chicago's largest monthly tournament league has decided to use clocks at their events starting this Sunday. This makes the second monthly tournament league in Chicago to use clocks to enhance their events. We plan on finalizing the rules tomorrow and I will update the base rules on this post to reflect any changes made.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/22 06:44:26


Post by: Peregrine


t wrote:
Its really simple, you cant, I would either pass the clock to you or pause it and call a judge. You have the right under these rules to pass the clock its really very simple and clear.


If you have the right to pass the clock then I have the right to pass it right back to you as soon as you try. You seem to believe that "you have the right to pass the clock" is an explanation for everything, and it really isn't. It doesn't do anything to address the question of whose clock should be running.

And yes, you can call a judge. But then I un-pause your clock because you're obviously stalling, using the judge call to buy yourself time to think. Even if you can successfully keep your clock paused the result is going to be a lot more judge calls, because instead of resolving disputes between the players every single argument, no matter how minor, requires a judge call because anything else means letting precious time run off your clock. What are you going to do, have a judge dedicated to every table? Or are you just going to have rounds that take longer than if you ditched the clock idea, because your poor over-worked judge can't get to everything fast enough?

As soon as you make the absurd comment that infantry can move 10" indicating that the move was not a mistake.


Of course infantry can't move 10", that's why I moved them 6". What, you think that 6" looks more like 10"? How much clock time are you willing to spend to argue about this?

And no, the judge isn't going to disqualify me for cheating. It's my word against yours that the models moved 6" from their starting point, and once the models have moved a third party can't reconstruct their original position. It's possible that I'm cheating, and it's equally possible that you're cheating and trying to take movement distance away from me. And the judge isn't going to sit there watching the whole game because they're going to be needed for the countless other minor rules disputes that are happening simultaneously, the ones that used to be handled without a judge call in the pre-clock era.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/22 09:06:59


Post by: insaniak


t wrote:

Well since I have read the FAQ and know that you can I would just move my model. If you are insistent then I would pause the clock and call a judge. None of my clock would be wasted.

Well, none of your clock, other than the bit up to the point where you pause the clock and call the judge.

It's incredibly easy for a player to just nibble away at your time with little disputes like that. Every single little rules query, regardless of whether or not you get as far as calling a judge, is using a little bit of your clock.



Even with that aside, I'm really not seeing what you gain from this. The stress of worrying about the clock the whole game would be enough to encourage me to simply skip the event, to be honest. Making sure the rounds are long enough for the size of the game is a far better, and simpler, option.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/22 09:09:51


Post by: Slipspace


While I agree with the majority that chess clocks seem overkill for what is a minor problem with more effective solutions I do think a lot of the negative comments have been rather, shall we say, bizarre.

I don't think the mere presence of chess clocks is suddenly going to create a room of TFGs as people seem to be implying. There is a legitimate problem that it creates more complexity and more uncertainty for people who are already TFG to exploit but maybe a little bit of a reality check is in order?

If you're really willing to move your infantry 10" and claim you didn't that's not a problem with chess clocks.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/22 09:18:23


Post by: insaniak


Slipspace wrote:
I don't think the mere presence of chess clocks is suddenly going to create a room of TFGs as people seem to be implying.

That's not what people are implying.

What's being said is that people inclined to slow play aren't necessarily going to change their ways just because of the clock, because it's just too easy to game the system.


So you're taking what is ultimately a very minor issue, and addressing it with a needlessly complicated 'solution' that doesn't actually do anything to fix it.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/22 12:53:36


Post by: kronk


t wrote:
Some Great news.

The Rampager League, Chicago's largest monthly tournament league has decided to use clocks at their events starting this Sunday. This makes the second monthly tournament league in Chicago to use clocks to enhance their events. We plan on finalizing the rules tomorrow and I will update the base rules on this post to reflect any changes made.


Are you the TO for the Rampager League?

Edit: Please don't use yellow text. Some people prefer the white and blue DakkaDakka format, and you can't read yellow.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/22 12:54:29


Post by: Slipspace


 insaniak wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
I don't think the mere presence of chess clocks is suddenly going to create a room of TFGs as people seem to be implying.

That's not what people are implying.

What's being said is that people inclined to slow play aren't necessarily going to change their ways just because of the clock, because it's just too easy to game the system.


So you're taking what is ultimately a very minor issue, and addressing it with a needlessly complicated 'solution' that doesn't actually do anything to fix it.


Outright cheating over how far your models move isn't slow play, though - it's cheating. The implication was people will go from playing a bit slowly to blatant cheating backed-up by bare-faced lying, which is riduculous. My point was this is obfuscating the problems with the proposed system (of which there are many) and is therefore unhelpful.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/22 13:46:21


Post by: kronk


t wrote:
You manage your own time and it is up to you to pass the clock.


You've made this point multiple times.

1. Are you a TO?
2. Is "Slow Play" a common complaint in your tournaments?
3. Besides time clocks, what other steps have YOU taken to stop slow players?
3a. Talked to repeat offenders?
3b. Banned repeat offenders from the next month's tournament?
3c. Done nothing and have decided to impose chess clocks so that you don't have to be the "bad guy?"


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/22 16:28:34


Post by: Rynner


 kronk wrote:
t wrote:
You manage your own time and it is up to you to pass the clock.


You've made this point multiple times.

1. Are you a TO?
2. Is "Slow Play" a common complaint in your tournaments?
3. Besides time clocks, what other steps have YOU taken to stop slow players?
3a. Talked to repeat offenders?
3b. Banned repeat offenders from the next month's tournament?
3c. Done nothing and have decided to impose chess clocks so that you don't have to be the "bad guy?"


I co run the Rampager league with a friend, not sure he is on Dakka, and if he is I don't know his user name.

I was at first against chess clocks since I play really fast it and slow play has never affected me. After this year's Dragonfall, where I watched my 2nd game opponent take 55 minutes (Stop watches are your friend) to deploy and play turn one (after I had null deployed) in a 2:30ish round and then proceed to throw a fit, calling me a poor sport, because I wouldn't let him play out turn 5 to win the game with 10 minutes left, I came around to the idea.

Now to answer your questions the best I can.

1: Yes. See above.
2: Sort of. We have a few players that I've had to call dice down on during events because the event had to move forward. I hate forcing a game to end on turn two or three but some times it happens.
3: Called dice down, warned them that if they keep playing they are using not only their time, but everyone else's.
3a: See point 3.
3b: I'm not going to ban people, some people just play slow or play slower armies. The scene was border line dead till we took over a year ago, banning people will do nothing to help rebuild.
3c: If it means we can finish the event in a timely manner I'm all for it. People downright refuse to drop in points so if you can afford it chess clocks seem like a good middle of the road solution.

Lastly, for whatever reasons, Kronk, you've been adamantly against chess clocks. If it's not your money thats being spent on them why all the hate for it?


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/22 16:44:50


Post by: Talizvar


I guy I play would LOVE if we used clocks.
He is CONSTANTLY claiming other people are not going fast enough yet seems to take his time on his own turn.
The main thing is by trying to rush people he is trying to get them to make mistakes.

I can only see benefit of the chess clock to give a little pressure to think ahead, handle your turn efficiently and above all know your rules.

I would list it as a great means of promoting learning but little else.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/22 17:55:36


Post by: kronk


Rynner wrote:
If it's not your money thats being spent on them why all the hate for it?


As others has mentioned, the method t has proposed is cumbersome, to say the least.

In the examples above, You have called dice down on players going over, and as a good TO, that's the right thing to do.

You got cheated at a tournament by a player using up nearly 1/2 of the game time on turn one through slow play. Again, as a good player, you called him out on it and involved the TO as needed.

My point is, you're doing the things I'd expect to happen. Why do you need the clock?

If I showed up to a tournament and they had them, I'd still play. It's not a deal breaker. Maybe I need less caffeine. As for why I've bothered posting in this thread, it has to do with how t is presenting his arguments. It comes off as "Everyone is asking for this, so here goes." Which rubs me the wrong way.

"The issue of time exploiting in tournament games has been getting a lot of attention again lately" No it hasn't. It seems to be a one-man crusade. Citations needed or withdraw the claim.

"TO's are already looking into how to best integrate chess clocks into their events." Citation needed. 2 guys in your local shop or 250 TOs across the US/World?




As an aside: I have played at Dragonfall, actually. It was the first one in 2015? It was billed as a "friendly", but I thought many of the lists were not. However, the TO's did a decent job pairing off people with competitive vs. friendly lists. Met some good players/people, for sure.



Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/22 18:10:11


Post by: blaktoof


The 40k ruleset was designed without time limits, but is designed so the game is supposed to end at a certain game turn.

Tournament s create a problem where the game has a time limit, however when that limit is reached before the game has ended then the players are not really completing a game. The game as a whole is designed around playing the game to completion, and comparing the result of an incomplete game to a complete game is not really valid.

Point in case, if you write up battle reports for complete games you will eventually see that in some games one side that is behind in the first three turns comes out ahead in the later turns.

One way to do timed rules:

Time each players pregame and turns, if one player is 125% or more than the other player when time is called they get only half points for the match.

Include "breaks". Keep in mind in a 3 hour match if one player is taking up 125% of the time then one player is using 80/180 minutes to another playing using 100/180 minutes. If say one player wastes 2 hours of the match because it favors their gunline army to only make it to turn 3 this makes it very obvious.

Most of the people who are purposefuly slow playing do it before the first turn completes, followed by their movement phases and "I'm picking my shooting targets". It doesn't happen when resolving the dice rolls, it's during selection of what to do that they get away with wasting time. As such it's not really necessary to have a clock go back in forth during action resolution.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/22 18:17:31


Post by: Rynner


 kronk wrote:
Rynner wrote:
If it's not your money thats being spent on them why all the hate for it?


You got cheated at a tournament by a player using up nearly 1/2 of the game time on turn one through slow play. Again, as a good player, you called him out on it and involved the TO as needed.


My apologies, I meant him, not me, in my answer. I have corrected it. Here is what I was attempting to say:

What I meant was that my opponent got mad that he couldn't finish (or play) his turn 5 to win the game and thus had to settle for a draw instead of an easy win because he took so long to play and deploy. Chess clocks in that situation would have prevented a feel bad situation where I look like a poor sport despite playing way faster than I should have to to just get to turn 4.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/22 20:59:11


Post by: Nurglitch


Why not just encourage players to finish games? I've seen people do all sorts of creative things to play fast when they're motivated, and if they're not motivated then they can hem and haw over whatever.

The best I've heard is limiting a player from winning if they don't play a game to completion. I believe a local tournament organizer gives x points for losing, y points for ties, and z points for winnging where x > y > z. I think losing is 1 point or something.

It might be something to make sure that if someone loses, but times out the game they should do worse than if they lose the game on time. Likewise winning but going overtime should mean that win is less valuable than losing on time.

I'd say put it in tiers.

Win on Time: 5pts
Tie on time: 4pts
Lose on time: 3pts
Win without completion: 2pts
Tie without completion: 1pts
Lose without completion: 0pts

Obviously there's some worry about chip-munking, but it's the kind of thing that should be pretty obvious to tournament organizers that walk around.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/22 21:13:00


Post by: Frazzled


blaktoof wrote:


Time each players pregame and turns, if one player is 125% or more than the other player when time is called they get only half points for the match.

Why would anyone play under that rule? I certainly wouldn't.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/22 21:18:23


Post by: Peregrine


Rynner wrote:
because I wouldn't let him play out turn 5 to win the game with 10 minutes left


What do you mean by you wouldn't let him play out the final turn? Why is this your decision as his opponent, and not the TO/judge's decision?


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/22 21:29:54


Post by: Frazzled


 Peregrine wrote:
Rynner wrote:
because I wouldn't let him play out turn 5 to win the game with 10 minutes left


What do you mean by you wouldn't let him play out the final turn? Why is this your decision as his opponent, and not the TO/judge's decision?


It could be that official time has been called, but I never heard of a tournament where players couldn't finish both sides of that turn.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/22 21:40:12


Post by: Rynner


 Peregrine wrote:
Rynner wrote:
because I wouldn't let him play out turn 5 to win the game with 10 minutes left


What do you mean by you wouldn't let him play out the final turn? Why is this your decision as his opponent, and not the TO/judge's decision?


It was a combination of mine/the judges. I'm sure I'll get jumped on for this but he had used the majority of the time and at a certain point as a player you have to put your foot down and say, "no, sorry, we don't have time to finish, you took up a majority of the time and that's just not fair." In fact I had warned him turn 2 that if he didn't play faster we were maybe playing 4 turns at best (which benefited me heavily).

To get more to the point - there were ten minutes left in the round, his shooting phase was going to take longer than that on its own. I had done everything I could reasonably to do to be fair to him but when you play a slow army (Renegades) and play slow you just don't finish. I also am paying for the event and want to finish games, win or lose. Not finishing games leaves with me a bad taste in my mouth and I know I'm not the only one.

In retrospec I do regret not just splitting the time but I didn't think about it at the time and once you start calling someone names and throwing a fit any credibility you have gets thrown out the window.

We even called a judge over to ask about finishing and they told us to call it. The fact is it was a situation that would have easily been resolved with chess clocks or both people using a stop watch and paying attention to the running time.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/22 21:43:26


Post by: Frazzled


Wait there was still time left and you somehow forced him to stop? WTF?


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/22 21:44:30


Post by: Rynner


 Frazzled wrote:
Wait there was still time left and you somehow forced him to stop? WTF?


Yes because we both couldn't finish a full turn.

The packet even said if theres 10 or less minutes don't start another turn.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/22 22:05:27


Post by: Frazzled


Rynner wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
Wait there was still time left and you somehow forced him to stop? WTF?


Yes because we both couldn't finish a full turn.

The packet even said if theres 10 or less minutes don't start another turn.


Ok, gotcha. Agreed, you both have to have your full turn or thats inappropriate.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/22 22:56:27


Post by: ssgmeader


 amanita wrote:
We've played games where only the movement phase was timed


For me this seems to be the biggest issue- Sounds like it promotes armies centered around fewer models..riptide wings galore and punishes the players that like to play Imperial, Nids, Orks etc. their model counts tend to be higher so they get penalized just because it inherently takes longer to move them all?


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/22 23:28:27


Post by: RiTides


Most tournament packets have a rule stating not to start a new turn if there's 15 minutes or less left in a round, as there won't be time for the full turn in that case.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/23 01:31:42


Post by: MDizzle


How about this ditch the clocks. Take a 3 hour round make all games end on 6 turns.
There are 180 minutes in round divide that by the number of turns 6 adding one more turn for Deployment so 7 altogether

. That's 25 minutes for one game turn to take place so that leaves just under 13 minutes for each player to Deploy and in every player turn. Just give them their time and when they reach 13 minutes dice down.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/23 02:18:49


Post by: t


I want to thank all the people who contributed to the newest version of the open source rules for using chess clocks in Warhammer 40k tournaments. Your input is greatly appreciated.

I edited the original post with rule set version 5.0.

Please play test the rules and provide us with any feedback that you have.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/23 02:54:13


Post by: Peregrine


 MDizzle wrote:
That's 25 minutes for one game turn to take place so that leaves just under 13 minutes for each player to Deploy and in every player turn. Just give them their time and when they reach 13 minutes dice down.


This doesn't work because a player's turn is not entirely under their control. For example, if, during your turn, I roll all of my saves reeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaallllllyyyyyy slllloooooooooooooooooooooooowwwwwwwlllyyyyy I'm taking up a huge chunk of your 13 minutes and all you can do is watch helplessly as your time ticks away.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rynner wrote:
The packet even said if theres 10 or less minutes don't start another turn.


This makes a lot more sense, compared to the original explanation of you making a choice to refuse the additional turn instead of simply following the stated tournament rules.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/23 03:03:15


Post by: MDizzle


You only get 15 seconds to roll saves if you don't finish rolling all wounds count as unsaved.Can you Imagine how good for the game this would be you could get rid of a lot of stupid death stars this way! You wouldn't have time to take all the saves and FNP's so people lists would change. You wouldn't have all day to summon units and roll a million gifts and powers.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/23 15:08:53


Post by: Frazzled


 MDizzle wrote:
You only get 15 seconds to roll saves if you don't finish rolling all wounds count as unsaved.Can you Imagine how good for the game this would be you could get rid of a lot of stupid death stars this way! You wouldn't have time to take all the saves and FNP's so people lists would change. You wouldn't have all day to summon units and roll a million gifts and powers.


You could get rid of all the dice saves if you just played chess instead.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/23 15:21:03


Post by: MDizzle


Or you could just play a better game that didn't have IGOUGO so this wouldn't be an issue anymore.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/23 15:32:35


Post by: 40KTV


Hello everyone,

I am the other TO for the Rampager league. The reason for using chess clocks is to increase speed of event play. We have noticed that we have several games that run past time due to well really no penalty. If it is 3 hour rounds I should get my hour and half no more no less. I should not be forced to play 3 rounds because my opponent decided he was going to use over 2 hours for his or her turns. The rules are for the event that me and my counter part run. I completely understand if someone does not want to use clocks and well fair enough. Chess clocks are going to be a thing for our events going forward. It my turn out to be bad and fail but you never know until you try.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/23 15:42:48


Post by: don_mondo


40KTV wrote:
Hello everyone,

I am the other TO for the Rampager league. The reason for using chess clocks is to increase speed of event play. We have noticed that we have several games that run past time due to well really no penalty. If it is 3 hour rounds I should get my hour and half no more no less. I should not be forced to play 3 rounds because my opponent decided he was going to use over 2 hours for his or her turns. The rules are for the event that me and my counter part run. I completely understand if someone does not want to use clocks and well fair enough. Chess clocks are going to be a thing for our events going forward. It my turn out to be bad and fail but you never know until you try.


Complete and utter bull. The armies are too diverse. A horde army vs an army consisting of three Knights comes to mind. Some armies are just going to require more time than others, count on it. Good luck with your experiment (that I've seen fail a couple times before over the last 20+ years...)

How about you pro-rate the time based on the number of miniatures in the army? So if I'm fielding 100+ models and he fields three, I get 95% of the allotted time. See how ridiculous it looks when you try to make it 'fair'?


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/23 16:05:46


Post by: 40KTV


don_mondo

Thank you for your friendly response! You get the same amount of time regardless of what army you bring. I should not have to give up my time because my opponent cannot execute his or her army within their given time frame. It literally does not matter what army you bring. Yes if I play and eltie style army with fewer models my play will go faster. Three hour rounds at 1850 you and your opponent have a hour and half to get through the game. I should not get less time to play because my opponent has 25 warp charge dice or 200 models what happen when two armies that have a lot of models or mechanics play one another to the get 4 hours to finish because their armies play longer. You response about pro rating per model gave me a nice laugh.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/23 16:21:16


Post by: don_mondo


@ 40KTV

Yes, it was meant to be ridiculous (give you a laugh). but you know that you are basically stating that you are playing favorites to 'Elite' armies, as they will have time to do all their actions with no penalties. And here I always thought that a TO/Judge (And yes, I've been one on many occasions, to include at multiple GW US Games Days and GTs...) was supposed to be impartial. Creating tourney rules that favor a particular type of army is not impartiality... And hey, if they don't finish, they don't finish, it happens. If your time limit is 3 hours, then at 3 hours it is dice down, game over, stop where you are and tabulate the results. If you see someone still rolling dice after you call time, go over and remind them. If you think someone is slow playing on purpose, penalize them (ie negative points to their overall score, judge's discretion). If someone keeps playing after time is up, penalize them.

Why don't you just tell everyone not to bother bringing any army that includes larger numbers of models, cause they will get screwed over.

But bottom line, it's your tourney, do what you want to. Doesn't matter if I agree with it or not.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/23 16:36:33


Post by: shogun


Don't understand why TO still try that clock stuff. It simply doesn't work and there are better ways to make sure a game goes as "planned".

I once helped out with a Tournament format (and judge) and did the following:

- Bought a bunch of pokerchips for objectives and already placed them on the field at the start of every round (divide the board into 6 squares and one in each square for example).
- Printed out small stickers with 'terrain' descriptions and placed them on all terrain pieces. No discussion, you know what kind of terrain it is so move along.
- Placed all army-lists one week before the tournament on the website so that players could check out specific armies and their rules.
- After two hours at every round I asked the players what game turn their at. If their too slow then I would follow the game from that point on and make corrections if necessary based upon the situation and armies. If a game is only at the beginning of turn 4 after two hours (3 hour game) I would simply state that both armies got half an hour left within a 4 or 5 round time frame. As a judge I would see to it that it is handled fairly. If I was under the assumption that a specific player takes up a lot of time, I would keep an eye on him next round.
- Then I would check the tables with 'time consuming armies' to make sure that everything goes smoothly and correct players if the game simply goes to slow.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/23 19:27:41


Post by: insaniak


 40KTV wrote:
If it is 3 hour rounds I should get my hour and half no more no less.


Except that's not how the game works.

You're not playing by yourself for an hour and a half, you're playing a 3-hour game with another person. If your players are consistently failing to finish games within that time, then the solution surely is to look at either increasing round time or decreasing army size.

And if it's a problem with certain players, then address it with those players.


It's already hard enough for horde armies to get everything done. Imposing extra time limitations on them simply means people will stop bringing those armies. If the goal is to return to a time when everyone just played marines, then this certainly seems like a great start.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/23 19:36:15


Post by: don_mondo


Well, if you really think you must do this clock thing, then do it right. Make sure you advertise the clock rules well in advance of any tourney in which you use, and in any posting advertising that tourney. Don't just post the clock rules in one spot on your forum and link to that in the tourney posting. Post the complete clock rules in each and every ad for the tourney. That way people shouldn't show up unaware that you plan on using them. Probably the worst tournament experience I ever had was when a group sponsored a tourney at the Baltimore Battle Bunker, and used a bizarre (IMO) scoring where you got more points for losing than for a draw. They wanted to make it more competitive so you would try harder to win and not settle for a draw. So of course players that saw they were going to lose tanked their game and took the loss for more points... But not me, nope, I tried to win every game and wound up with one win and two draws. Course, I was also using an 1850 point army in a 2000 point tourney, field testing my GT army for that year... Point being, nothing on their club forum, nothing on any posts about the tourney, nothing at all indicated they were going to do this until you showed up at the tourney and they announced it (late in round 1, not even at the beginning of the tourney when it would be easier to turn around and leave). I'll admit I acted... poorly. Make sure the players are aware is what I'm saying, allows them to plan ahead and be ready for your clocks.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/23 19:52:19


Post by: Glitcha


Personally, I've never had an issue with time at any of my events. I'm the TO for Indy40k out of Indianapolis, IN. I run something between 18-20 a events a year. I believe its more up to the TO to have better time management. Make sure that players are well aware of when you start the timer and how much time they have left in the round. I build into all of my events a small break after each round. Reason being, 1 I'm most likely either entering scores in or I'm playing the ringer army and 2 sometimes players need a break between rounds. Doesn't have to be a long break 10-15 minutes.

Also, I avoid using the dice down method. I've had it happen to me a couple of times and its no fun. I use a finish your action and don't start a new one or finish the game turn. This way either you are finishing melee attacks and saves or shooting attacks and saves. If you use the finish the game turn method, the players are just eating into their own break time.

If time management is a huge issue, maybe you should evaluate how many points your event is and how much time is in the round.

I use 1 hour for 250-1000pts, 2 hours and 15 min for 1250-1500pts. 2 hours and 30 min for 1750-1850, 3 hours for 2000- 2500pts, and 4000+pts gets 1 hour and 10 minutes per player turn. (Broken down into 20 minute movement, 10 minute psykic, 20 minute shooting, and 20 minute assault. If time is called, you finish the action you are on and do not start another.)


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/23 19:58:09


Post by: MDizzle


Things I do at my Bolt Action events to help with time. I have a timer running on a large TV in the room. I walk around all the tables and ask people what turn they are on. If they are behind I tell them both they need to pick up the pace. I have a 15 minute period for meet greet army list look over before each round and my rounds last 2 hours thirty minutes.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/23 20:34:59


Post by: Matt1785


Warmachine does this and doesn't get a lot of complaints. Warmachine has hoard and elite armies and there aren't issues s. The issues exist with the saves and remembering to roll to hit and to roll to wound and then passing the clock so the opponent can make his saves. I'm not saying it can't work and I know you are running an event Sunday and will look for the info when it's done and feedback. I'm not against clocks but it's a lot to remember and figure on. Warmachine is far better streamlined for clocks.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/24 04:03:25


Post by: t


Updated the title and attached a word document.

Also I created a Google document and it can be found here.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BQIk7X0Fm0Znr2VbpNP3bGNs0hhyNHhU6AUVcy4G1rM/edit?usp=sharing



Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/24 16:21:28


Post by: kronk


Let us know how the tournament goes, t.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/24 16:49:21


Post by: Fragile


You can also use the Law of Large Numbers to speed things up. Any time you have a situation where 1 player is rolling more than 20 dice, you simply take the mathematical average rounding down. For Example, 30 Orks attacking with 3 attacks each, needing 4+ to hit, would generate 45 hits. Then needing 4+ to wound, would generate 22 wounds. That speeds up a bit of the dice rolling.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/26 00:25:50


Post by: Trasvi


I feel like trying to do that is... not going to work with 40ks current rules. There are a ton of times when you roll a bunch of dice trying to get that lucky streak of 6s or hoping your opponent gets 1s.

Besides... is it really the 30 ork boys that are slowing the game down? In my experience it's far more likely to be the one Psyker deciding which spells to cast, or the 9 separate units of warp spiders, or the mixed units where everyone USA different weapons / ballistic skill / special rules, than homogeneous blob squads.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/26 04:24:53


Post by: Peregrine


Fragile wrote:
You can also use the Law of Large Numbers to speed things up. Any time you have a situation where 1 player is rolling more than 20 dice, you simply take the mathematical average rounding down. For Example, 30 Orks attacking with 3 attacks each, needing 4+ to hit, would generate 45 hits. Then needing 4+ to wound, would generate 22 wounds. That speeds up a bit of the dice rolling.


This doesn't really speed that much up. Calculating the right answer and agreeing with your opponent that it's correct is going to take almost as much time as actually rolling the dice, if not more time.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/26 12:00:21


Post by: ArbitorIan


 40KTV wrote:
don_mondo

Thank you for your friendly response! You get the same amount of time regardless of what army you bring. I should not have to give up my time because my opponent cannot execute his or her army within their given time frame. It literally does not matter what army you bring. Yes if I play and eltie style army with fewer models my play will go faster. Three hour rounds at 1850 you and your opponent have a hour and half to get through the game. I should not get less time to play because my opponent has 25 warp charge dice or 200 models what happen when two armies that have a lot of models or mechanics play one another to the get 4 hours to finish because their armies play longer. You response about pro rating per model gave me a nice laugh.


This whole argument about 'my time' and 'your time' is based on a fundamental error. It is NOT true to say that in a 'fair' game of 40k both players get equal time, and that if one player takes more than half the time then they are in some way playing badly. It's an entirely made up assertion.

If one player has 100 models and the other player has 3 then it is fair that one player takes more time than the other. If one player's army requires lots of extra rolls on tables than the others then it is fair that they take more time than the other. There is no such thing as 'your' or 'my' time, and thinking about it that way is only going to lead to arguments.

Playing for an equal amount of time has never been part of the game rules and never been implied in any of them. You are, of course, welcome to play that way if you want - you can modify the game however you want in your tournaments - but i think your starting assumption is in error.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/26 12:15:51


Post by: Benlisted


I really don't like the idea of chess clocks in tournies. It feels like one step too far in terms of competitiveness, and I would likely not attend an event if using them. I am far from a casual player, I play to win and build tough lists - but at the end of the day, unless you're at the very very top end of LVO or something playing for a major cash prize, it's still only a game. I don't go to a tournament to win money or prestige, I go to have fun and do my best to win every game - very different things imo. A chess clock just seems to turn it from a game into a sport, which 40k is just not tailored to being. The added level of stress of having to play within time or suffer a potentially very harsh penalty is not something I want - how am I supposed to even make friendly conversation with my opponent whilst the game is ongoing if it wastes their/my time? What if we want to go get a beer? As someone who is godawful at multitasking I cannot play the game whilst chatting, I have to briefly stop. Sure, at the very highest levels it might be needed to stop cheating, but the vast majority of players who want to just have a good time and try their best to win are those it's going to affect - those top players can probably play quickly enough that a chess clock won't be needed!

Another point noone seems to be raising is that a timer will raise the cognitive load of playing - ie. by having to bear in mind the time, you are pushing something else out of your working memory, and your actual gameplay will suffer as a result.

The other thing that just seems utter madness to me is that chess clocks are being considered the solution before dropping points limits! Here in the UK a lot of the events I have been to are 1750, 1650 or even 1500 point events - the UK GT last year I think was 1500. The games at these levels are much much faster and are still absolutely fine - part of the challenge of list writing is finding the best possible combination within the limits allotted to you, be that no LoWs, x detachments, or a points limit. Sure, some lists don't work at these lower levels, but equally others will be made viable by the lack of these lists, all it does is shift the meta like any number of other changes to the rules set will do.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/26 21:52:41


Post by: Peregrine


 ArbitorIan wrote:
If one player has 100 models and the other player has 3 then it is fair that one player takes more time than the other. If one player's army requires lots of extra rolls on tables than the others then it is fair that they take more time than the other. There is no such thing as 'your' or 'my' time, and thinking about it that way is only going to lead to arguments.


It isn't fair at all for one player to have more than half the time. Imagine what happens when the 100-model army that requires more than half the available time is matched up against a 100-model army that requires half the available time. The game is not going to finish because the total time required is now more than what is available. By bringing that 100-model army without the ability to play it within your fair half of the available time you're essentially saying "play a small army that takes less time or I'm not going to let you finish the game". And that isn't fair to the player who is able to do their half of the game within half the available time.

The issue with chess clocks is not that they punish people who don't deserve it, it's that it isn't possible to make a chess clock work in a game like 40k because of the structure of the game. If you could magically create a chess clock system that fairly and unambiguously tracked each player's use of time and didn't slow the game down with excessive time spent on managing the clock system a chess clock in tournament 40k would be a great idea. But that system only exists in some magical fantasy world, not in real tournaments.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/26 22:59:02


Post by: insaniak


 Peregrine wrote:

It isn't fair at all for one player to have more than half the time. Imagine what happens when the 100-model army that requires more than half the available time is matched up against a 100-model army that requires half the available time. The game is not going to finish because the total time required is now more than what is available. By bringing that 100-model army without the ability to play it within your fair half of the available time you're essentially saying "play a small army that takes less time or I'm not going to let you finish the game". And that isn't fair to the player who is able to do their half of the game within half the available time..

That's not an issue of the player not being 'fair'... that's an issue of the tournament not allowing enough time for the size of the armies being played.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/27 00:32:51


Post by: Peregrine


 insaniak wrote:
That's not an issue of the player not being 'fair'... that's an issue of the tournament not allowing enough time for the size of the armies being played.


It's both. Tournaments often have problems with allowing far too little time for the point level, but you can't set a round time that allows literally every game to finish. If the slowest armies with the slowest players are finishing then everyone else is sitting around waiting after their games finish in a reasonable amount of time. At some point you just have to accept that you've allowed as much time as you can reasonably allow, and if a player can't finish doing their part of the game within half that amount of time then they either need to pick a different army or stop coming to tournaments.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/27 14:28:58


Post by: Glitcha


Fragile wrote:
You can also use the Law of Large Numbers to speed things up. Any time you have a situation where 1 player is rolling more than 20 dice, you simply take the mathematical average rounding down. For Example, 30 Orks attacking with 3 attacks each, needing 4+ to hit, would generate 45 hits. Then needing 4+ to wound, would generate 22 wounds. That speeds up a bit of the dice rolling.


I don't agree with this method at all. 40k is a dice game. As an ork player and playing a horde style from time to time, I would not attended an event that uses this rule.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/28 15:53:14


Post by: 40KTV


Greetings everyone,

We held a 12 person RTT this past weekend with the chess clocks rules that where provided by T. Instead of going to my opinion on chess clock usage i will give a list of takeaways from the event.

Format: Adepticon
Time: 2:45 minutes

Armies in attendance: Genestealer Cult, Dark angel battle Company, White scars battle company, death stars and daemons.

Pros

1. All games except one (new player to Dameons with a massive psychic phase) had a natural conclusion.
2. No one had a issue keeping track of their own time.
3. Many armies had high model count and or high psychic phase
4. Opinions of the majority of players (13 in total) was the clocks provided an excellent way to track time.

Cons

1. If you forget to pass your time it can become a issue since you cannot get that time back.
2. If you pause for rules questions and arguments you will still get dice down called on you for running over time.
(this was not much of a issue but can be if the question drags on without a decently fast resolution.
3. Clock Fear this when the player plays to fast because they are afraid of running out of time.
This should be resolved by continuing to use clocks and realizing that you do have plenty of time.

Thanks in advance for your feed back. Leadership check incoming


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/28 19:19:17


Post by: insaniak


 40KTV wrote:

3. Clock Fear this when the player plays to fast because they are afraid of running out of time.
This should be resolved by continuing to use clocks and realizing that you do have plenty of time.


...which would seem to eliminate the need for clocks...


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/02/28 22:43:40


Post by: t


I have been a little busy since Sunday, sorry for the late reply.

So the event went really well, almost to a man the feedback that I received was very positive. All the games ended naturally either through dice rolls or timeout. The timeout that 40ktv described was a demon player that was very new to demons and I think he timed out in the 5th turn of his first game only. I was playing at the time so I wasn’t watching that game but I don’t think that he actually fully timed out, it was more like he had only 45 sec for a turn.

The armies that I saw at the event were Gene stealer cult, full blown min/max Lions Blade, bike heavy Lions Blade, Tau-Eldar, full blown min/max Battle Company, flying demons, Magnus plus screamer star, screamer star with exalted flamers, double Wraithknight using the new Eldar rules and Wolf Star.

The round times were 2h50m minutes for the first two rounds and reduced to 2h40m (reduced because the store closes early on Sundays) for the final round. The top table for the finals rolled for turn 7 with 12min on one clock and 6min on the other. The roll to play 7 failed and it ended on 6.

The most important observation of what was happening at this event is that games were ending naturally with a variable turn roll. This result is consistent with what we expect from our experience using clocks in other monthly tournaments in Chicago and through all the practice games.

The following things are examples of what I did not observe at this tournament that are constantly complained about at other events. There were no 45+ minute first turns, no one was playing through their entire lunch break, no one was accused of slow playing, no Eldar players exploited the time rules so they didn’t have to roll for a 6th turn, no complaints about Demon pre-game taking to long, no three turn battle company games and there was no need to reduce points.

One final note, we are going to tweak the first rule a hair because when you read it out loud in front of 15+ people it sounds a little awkward in its current state.



Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/03/01 04:24:38


Post by: Jimsolo


On the surface this seems like a way to stack the odds in the favor of small model count armies like Imperial Knights and rig the system against MSU armies or horde armies.

After deeper consideration, I came to the exact same conclusion.

If the amount of time each player has is the same no matter what army they play, there's an additional factor being added in to heavily advantage some armies over others. I can't see any other way to look at it other than trying to rig the outcome against armies/builds the TO doesn't like.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/03/01 08:51:42


Post by: doktor_g


Chaos Daemons vs Imperial Knights.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/03/01 15:41:30


Post by: Glitcha


How points were use for this event? Even at 1850pts, I could easily manage a 2h 50 min or 2h 40min game in with out a chess clock. Maybe I, personally, play a a brisk of enough pace to not worry about time, but if you rounds are that long, what is the point in having the chess clock?


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/03/02 15:27:40


Post by: Trasvi


What he said.

2:45 seems to me a very decent time to play games.

I tend to experience timeouts in tournaments that are trying to cram 2000pts in to 2 hours. 1850 in 2:45 seems like a breeze that you would have very little difference with or without clocks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jimsolo wrote:
On the surface this seems like a way to stack the odds in the favor of small model count armies like Imperial Knights and rig the system against MSU armies or horde armies.

After deeper consideration, I came to the exact same conclusion.

If the amount of time each player has is the same no matter what army they play, there's an additional factor being added in to heavily advantage some armies over others. I can't see any other way to look at it other than trying to rig the outcome against armies/builds the TO doesn't like.



Or you could look at it the other way...
people playing MSU armies are trying to rig the outcome by playing a style of game that disadvantages the other player.

Or another way:
If you bring an army that you expect to take you more than half the play time, then you are imposing on your opponent. You're expecting them to compensate for your deficiency.

Its all well and good to say an all-knights army takes a short time and a battle company takes a long time, but when you end up with a battle co vs battle co taking extra extra long, something has to give. If its a casual game at home you can take all the time you want, but a tournament has to run to a schedule of some kind; and the schedule can't be determined by the two slowest players playing the two slowest armies.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/03/02 20:53:12


Post by: Red Corsair


 Jimsolo wrote:
On the surface this seems like a way to stack the odds in the favor of small model count armies like Imperial Knights and rig the system against MSU armies or horde armies.

After deeper consideration, I came to the exact same conclusion.

If the amount of time each player has is the same no matter what army they play, there's an additional factor being added in to heavily advantage some armies over others. I can't see any other way to look at it other than trying to rig the outcome against armies/builds the TO doesn't like.


Giving certain builds and advantage is already a thing though. Most tournaments are won by armies that are tailored for the format. Your claim assumes all tournaments are playing rulebook 40k, when in reality they all are house ruling the game in their own way, thus altering the meta and deciding which armies have an edge over others. Having timed rounds already favors elite armies over horde, this hasn't changed in multiple editions. So unless there is an event somewhere out there that doesn't have time limits they all are "rigging the outcome" as you put it.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/03/02 21:38:37


Post by: Marmatag


The simple solution is to have games always go to 5 turns regardless of time it takes to play. If someone is suspected of intentionally playing slowly, have a harsh penalty, which a judge could rule on.

Clocks are trying to solve a problem brought about by setting time constraints on the game. If you have to finish regardless there's no incentive to slow play, other than being That Guy, in which case a judge could observe your game and easily make the determination that you're playing slowly on purpose.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/03/03 06:57:31


Post by: Peregrine


 Marmatag wrote:
The simple solution is to have games always go to 5 turns regardless of time it takes to play.


This is not a viable option. Events need to have a fixed schedule to run properly.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/03/03 12:57:33


Post by: kronk


t wrote:
I have been a little busy since Sunday, sorry for the late reply.

So the event went really well, almost to a man the feedback that I received was very positive. All the games ended naturally either through dice rolls or timeout. The timeout that 40ktv described was a demon player that was very new to demons and I think he timed out in the 5th turn of his first game only. I was playing at the time so I wasn’t watching that game but I don’t think that he actually fully timed out, it was more like he had only 45 sec for a turn.



Sounds like everyone had a good time.

Thanks for the update, t.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/03/08 22:41:04


Post by: zedsdead


I find that most games that don't finish naturally start out slow from the onset.
- initial tournament setup ( depending on Tournament format: ITC, Nova, ect) Traits, sides, psychic powers, seizes, night fighting, turn choice, ect ect.
- Setting up armys, Infiltrates, scouts, ect, ect
- 1st turn process of both players.

I wonder if we should be looking to streamline this initial process along with a time constraint on initial setup and 1st turn ?...

could be either combined into a total of say 30 min or divided into portions say setup 5 min per player and 10 min per player 1st turn. then move onto a more natural process ?!


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/03/09 08:48:42


Post by: ArbitorIan


Trasvi wrote:
Its all well and good to say an all-knights army takes a short time and a battle company takes a long time, but when you end up with a battle co vs battle co taking extra extra long, something has to give. If its a casual game at home you can take all the time you want, but a tournament has to run to a schedule of some kind; and the schedule can't be determined by the two slowest players playing the two slowest armies.


I agree that something has to give - I'd just argue that the thing that has to give is either number of points or number of rounds, rather than removing certain factions or changing the feel of the game.

If we accept that:
- we want to have a format where people can bring whatever army they happen to own
- some armies take a long time to play, either because of high model counts or lots of rules
then the best way to determine round length is to get two 'average' speed players (say, experienced players who are playing the game at a sensible pace - neither chatting to their friends for ages nor powering through like professional sportsmen wih no extraneous chat or bathroom breaks) and get them to play the slowest armies. That's your round time. Too long? Have less rounds or have less points.

Anything else (like, say, the ever-present spectre of a clock right there next to you timing your every move) forces people into a certain style of play that emphasises playing speed, something that has never been part of 40k. Sure, I COULD bring my Renegades or my Guard, but then I'll have to be playing at total, full-on speed for almost three hours, not stopping for anything, not chatting to my opponent, permanently aware of the time. That's much more stress than many people want in their leisure activity. So I'll bring my Knights instead. And if I was a newer player who doesn't have multiple armies to choose from, I probably just won't go. And lots of people also having tI make that choice is bad for building a community, something which is often the point of tournaments in the first place!

The problem is that we're playing a game which is too complex and has too many models to fit in the round time we're used to. Chess clocks are a solution that rules out certain armies (and thus players) unless they want to play like professional sportsmen. I don't think that's good for the hobby.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/03/09 16:53:00


Post by: Reecius


Sorry I haven't jumped in sooner, but we've tried out the system and like it. I am a big proponent of chess clocks in 40k as it really helps to illustrate which player is taking more time and keep folks on schedule.

And I agree with others in this thread, the game has gotten too bloated with rules and free points to reasonably play in an acceptable amount of time without some type of time tracking.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/03/10 04:08:37


Post by: insaniak


 ArbitorIan wrote:

I agree that something has to give - I'd just argue that the thing that has to give is either number of points or number of rounds, rather than removing certain factions or changing the feel of the game..

There is some validity to the argument that allowing ample time for the largest/slowest armies to finish their games can result in most of the players spending more time standing around scratching themselves between rounds.

I'm wondering if adding some sort of army-matching algorithm into tournament software would help there... Allow TOs to set specific armies that won't be matched up against each other, except for in the final round. That way at least your slowest armies won't be compounding the issue by playing against other slow armies.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/03/10 04:29:27


Post by: Peregrine


 insaniak wrote:
I'm wondering if adding some sort of army-matching algorithm into tournament software would help there... Allow TOs to set specific armies that won't be matched up against each other, except for in the final round. That way at least your slowest armies won't be compounding the issue by playing against other slow armies.


I don't think you could come up with one that couldn't be exploited. If I'm playing a horde army and know that the matching algorithm isn't going to match me against another horde army it makes it really easy to focus on anti-elite and anti-vehicle weapons and ignore the need to deal with hordes.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/04/09 13:15:23


Post by: Saito


I ran a 40k tournament yesterday where "slow play" was a considerable issue. I'm still new to being T.O. and did not handle it as effectively as I think I could have (Having played the individual a time or two before I know how brutal his turns can be) I tried being reasonable but that game ended up running 20+ minutes into the lunch break.

Something I had considered after the fact was the "dice down" ruling or even calling the game a draw. In a sense it would penalize the slow player while being fair to the opponent. Not sure how effective or reasonable this would be. My local club is also thinking of missions in round one that would cull the slower players but not sure how well that would work either.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2017/06/30 19:20:39


Post by: Scott-S6


 ArbitorIan wrote:
Playing for an equal amount of time has never been part of the game rules and never been implied in any of them. You are, of course, welcome to play that way if you want - you can modify the game however you want in your tournaments - but i think your starting assumption is in error.

Playing to a time limit has never been part of the game either so I really don't know what your point is.

If you know you're going to be playing to a time limit then is it not inherently unsporting to bring an army that you know full well cannot be played in your half of the time?


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2018/01/29 22:28:28


Post by: t


For all of the people discussing chess clocks on the LVO thread, this thread contains an open source set of chess clock rules for competitive 40k games. These rules, or a slight variation of them, have been used in several events and are proven to effectively eliminate all time concerns in competitive 40k games. They were designed for 7th edition but the general concept will hold true for 8th edition. I will re-evaluate the specifics and post a v6.0 designed specifically for 8th edition shortly. Any 8th edition feedback is as always, greatly appreciated.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2018/01/30 08:37:14


Post by: tneva82


edit: Whoops what a thread necromancy


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2018/02/06 18:11:36


Post by: silashand


edit: missed that this was thread necromancy. Apparently I can't delete my post on this board ;-/


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2018/02/06 23:00:10


Post by: chimeara


 kronk wrote:
t wrote:
At the request of the mods I started a fresh thread:

The issue of time exploiting in tournament games has been getting a lot of attention again lately and TO's are already looking into how to best integrate chess clocks into their events..


No TOs aren't. Citation needed from you.

This is just some chess clock fetish you have.

This recent post is just as cumbersome and unnecessary as your thread from a year ago.

The TO for Glass City GT recently finished the tournament packet. In the guidelines he mentions that the use of a chess clock(or app) is allowed, provided your opponent agrees to it. I'm curious how many people will want to use one? I also wonder if he added that in as a result of LVO or just internet banter.


Open source chess clock rules for Warhammer 40k Tournaments v5.0 @ 2018/02/07 04:47:49


Post by: FeindusMaximus


Chess clocks sound good. 2000pts make 3hrs, 1.5 hours for each player.