I - THE MAIN RULEBOOK
1. If a Transport Vehicle has remained still and not moved, any contents inside are allowed to move out and charge per their normal restrictions (so ya know, no Rapid Firing and then charging unless you're Relentless etc). Assault Vehicles get their full movement to do that. A rule that rightfully should never have been removed. 100% agree about returning it.
2. Interceptor allows targeting at ground units with normal Ballistic Skill again. Skyfire allows targeting of Jetbike units with normal Ballistic Skill. No complaints here, makes sense to me.
3. Swarms have Eternal Warrior. When hit by a Blast or Template Weapon, each model suffers D6 wounds instead of the normal 1 wound. This applies to Stomp attacks and anything else that might use any of those markers in the Assault Phase for whatever reason. Yes to Eternal Warrior, but I'm unsure about the D6 wounds. That's a lot of extra dice rolling. If you thinks it need to change from doubling I'd make it triple instead rather than be random.
4. ATSKNF doesn't Ignore Fear. For Fear tests for these models, roll 3D6 and pick the lowest two results. Oh god yes. I personally also think it could do with no giving them a normal turn after regrouping (auto regrouping is good enough) but that could just be my disdain for this rule showing.
5. Blast Weapons do not have to be centered over a model when initially placed. Again, makes sense to me.
6. Soulfire is resolved on a D6 rather than a D3. Honestly I'd much rather have Soul Blaze deal the extra damage imediately and not linger. So each successful hit (of a 6 perhaps) deals an automatic Str 4 AP5 hit. That's just me though and this is still fine.
7. Ordnance attacks make any models hit by them suffer I1 after resolving saves, in a similar manner as Concussive I mean yeah, why not.
8. When attacking with grenades in melee, half the models, rounding up, in a unit may use them. Again, no complaints here.
9. PYROMANCY: Inferno is WC1. Molten Beam has a range of 18". I'm open to more suggestions but I think this makes it a more well-rounded table. Personally I feel Firey Form and Flame Breath should be switched, and Firey Form should also allow the psyker to re-roll failed Armour Pens when casting Pyro powers.
10. TELEKINESIS: Crush is AP2. I haven't any other ideas how to fix the table as it is pretty hard to look at and nobody likes it. Telekinesis's main problem is that it's so unfocused. Objuration Mechanicum could do with being replaced by something else and Telekine Dome could do with becoming WC1. Unsure as to whether Levitation should be changed or replaced. It's a cool power but as written mostly useless. Also Assail could do with having an AP value, even if it's only AP4.
11. TELEPATHY: Invisibility makes Ballistic Skill 1 rather than the Snap-Firing clause. I also feel that Invis should be at the very least WC3. It is way to good to be WC2.

 RFHolloway wrote:
My big one would be only one independent character can join a unit - this could be another independent character so you would have a single unit of 2 models. This would avoid a lot of the rules stacking.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I - THE MAIN RULEBOOK

Spoiler:

1. If a Transport Vehicle has remained still and not moved, any contents inside are allowed to move out and charge per their normal restrictions (so ya know, no Rapid Firing and then charging unless you're Relentless etc). Assault Vehicles get their full movement to do that. - I like this. It is straight out of the 5th edition rules, but considering that this change hurt many assault units in books without access to cheap assault transports.
2. Interceptor allows targeting at ground units with normal Ballistic Skill again. Skyfire allows targeting of Jetbike units with normal Ballistic Skill. - This is okay. It would probably get more people bringing Fortifications with guns again, and I always thought that Jetbikes were flying high enough to get hit by Skyfire.
3. Swarms have Eternal Warrior. When hit by a Blast or Template Weapon, each model suffers D6 wounds instead of the normal 1 wound. This applies to Stomp attacks and anything else that might use any of those markers in the Assault Phase for whatever reason. - I feel like this is a step in the right direction. It is a call back to 5th edition again, but a proper SWARM should be kinda hard to deal with.
4. ATSKNF doesn't Ignore Fear. For Fear tests for these models, roll 3D6 and pick the lowest two results. - This could work really well, though I would word it as "roll an additional die" than 3d6, so as to avoid confusion on Leadership tests (like your later mentioned Necron Mindshackle Scarabs update).
5. Blast Weapons do not have to be centered over a model when initially placed. - Did they? I will have to check my rulebook next chance I get...
6. Soulfire is resolved on a D6 rather than a D3. - I haven't dealt with this in many years, and can't fairly comment.
7. Ordnance attacks make any models hit by them suffer I1 after resolving saves, in a similar manner as Concussive - So just make them concussive?
8. When attacking with grenades in melee, half the models, rounding up, in a unit may use them. - A fair fix and in between for what was done before and the ruling now, but could be cumbersome to count out the models. It's a start though!
9. PYROMANCY: Inferno is WC1. Molten Beam has a range of 18". I'm open to more suggestions but I think this makes it a more well-rounded table. - I haven't really used Psykers in 7th edition. The new phase just made it too cumbersome for me.
10. TELEKINESIS: Crush is AP2. I haven't any other ideas how to fix the table as it is pretty hard to look at and nobody likes it. - See previous.
11. TELEPATHY: Invisibility makes Ballistic Skill 1 rather than the Snap-Firing clause. - See previous.

II - CODEX Adeptus Astartes: Space Marines (Note that Dark Angels and Blood Angels are rolled up into here as there simply aren't enough unique items to justify extra codices). Unit specific codices will get their own fixes soon, as well as Chapters that don't have any getting their own one or two special snowflakes, and my better fixes for FW stuff come later. - I've always kinda figured that Space Marines ought to be rolled into a single Codex before, but I'm never happy with that thought in the long run. Maybe it could work? But if that's the case, can Space Wolves be thrown in? I love Space Wolves, but are Grey Hunters really any different from Tactical Marines? How about Chapter Specific Wargear? Gah, it's messy. I'm staying out of this one...

Spoiler:

Chapter Tactics Fixes:
1. Vehicles gain access to Chapter Tactics - I think this is fine. As other have said, it would be quirky for some Chapters, and useless for others. But it would help Dreadnoughts, and I love Dreadnoughts!
2. If Black Templar Dreadnoughts lose any HP, they gain Rage and Counter-Attack for that turn. - Is that how it works for infantry? If so, works for me.
3. Blood Angels get rolled into here. The Descent Of Angels is now part of the Chapter Tactic. Pt. 2 is The Red Thirst, which gives +1 S/I on the charge. - Sounds fine to me
4. Dark Angels get rolled into here. Ravenwing, Deathwing, and Grim Resolve are the Chapter Tactics, with Grim Resolve allowing rerolls of Wall of Death. - Sounds fine to me.

Weapon and Equipment Fixes, plus Relics: - This needs to be tread carefully. Modifying weapons profiles can be tricky, because it is affecting the weapon across all the Codices (Codexes?) and should be handled with care. And points costs are also messy, since you can't look at them in a vacuum, as Psychic powers and Formations may give unintended bonuses. I will give my thoughts below...
1. Storm Bolters are S5 - It's something, but I don't know if this is what the Storm Bolter needs. It's a start though.
2. Heavy Bolters are now Salvo 2/4 or Heavy 4. - I would go with Salvo 2/4.
3. Inferno Pistols, Heavy Flamers, and Hand Flamers are part of the standard codex. - Yes, please!
4. Pistol variants and Combi-Weapons are now 5 points - Eh, I'd rather them be costed out based on their abilities rather than a blanket cost. Plus, I'd rather make Combi-weapons usable more than once somehow.
5. Chainswords have rerolls of 1 to wound - What about my models I gave Combat Blades to instead of Chainswords? I'm not sure about this one.
6. Grav Weapons wound Swarms on a 6, regular Infantry on a 5+, anything Bulky on a 4+, anything Very Bulky on a 3+, and anything bigger on a 2+. Vehicles suffer a HP stripped on a 6, and Super Heavy Vehicles lose D2 instead. - This sounds like it could work better to me, except for Super Heavies, which I would make just as susceptible as regular vehicles.
7. Missile Launchers have Flakk Missiles in their profile standard. - Works for me!
8. The Armor Indominitus confers Relentless and is now 50 points. The Standard Of The Emperor Ascendant is now 50 points - I have never seen these used, nor used them, so I can't fairly comment.
9. The Glaive of Vengeance is now 35 points. The Hunter's Eye is now 30 points, - See previous comment.
10. The Eye Of Hypnoth is now cumulative with an Auspex. The Spartean is AP4. - See previous comment.
11. Betrayers Bane is now 20 points. - See previous comment.
12. Vulkan's Sigil is now 15 points. - See previous comment.
13. Raven's Fury is now 20 points. - See previous comment.
14. Angel's Wing is now 20 points. Fury Of Baal is now 15 points. - See previous comment.
15. Eye Of The Unseen is now 25 points. Monster Slayer Of Caliban is now 20 points. - See previous comment.

HQ Fixes: - I don't have anything to say here. I'm not interested on taking name characters, as I prefer to make my own Chapter stories and characters based on my games and tabletop experiences.
1. HQ's with a Jump Pack unlock Assault Marines as Troops. - Works for me!
2. Khan is now 150 points without his Bike
3. Tigurius is now 175 points
4. Shrike is now 170 points
5. Helbrecht now has Orbital Bombardment - Works for me. He is basically a Chapter Master, right?
6. Azrael has Blind on his Combi-Plasma again, has Orbital Bombardment, and is now 230 points.
7. Belial is now 185 points.
8. Asmodai loses Specialist Weapon on his Blades Of Reason, and to be honest I don't know what other fixes would be fitting for him at the moment; I'm open to suggestions for this one. Seriously.
9. Astorath inflicts D3 additional wounds (which must be saved separately) or rolling for penetration if he rolls a 6 to wound or penetrate
10. The Sanguinor's sword now has Rending.
11. Tycho has Fleshbane on all his melee attacks.
12. Gabriel Seth gets moved to the HQ slot, gains Orbital Bombardment, Artificer Armor, and has Rampage standard instead of it being his Warlord trait, and is now 175 points; his new Warlord trait is Heroic Bearing as described in the current Codex: Blood Angels.
13. Commander Dante has Orbital Bombardment and is now 225 points; his new Warlord trait is Angel Of Death.

Troop Fixes:
1. Tactical Marines can buy another two Special Weapons or Heavy Weapons at 10 man squads. - I would just let the Squad take two of 2 Special Weapons, 2 Heavy Weapons, or one of each. Giving them that much fire power moves away from the Troops role to me.
2. Scout Heavy Bolters are now 10 points. - Since they are now BS4 standard, this works.

Fast Attack Fixes:
1. Assault Marines have access to all Pistol Types, and can buy two at 5 man squads, and an additional one at 10 men. Eviscerators are now 20 points. - This is fine with me. I would also give them an option for models in the unit to take Power Weapons/Lightning Claws/PowerFists instead of the Pistol types, since they are a melee unit.

Elite Fixes:
1. Tactical Terminators can buy two Heavy Weapons at 5 men, and additional Heavy Weapon at 10 men. Assault Cannons are 15 points each - Hm... This might work. Improving Storm Bolters would lessen the need for Heavy Weapons though. It's a start.
2. Assault Terminators with Lightning Claws are 30 points now, and to upgrade to the TH/SS is 10 points still. - Works for me!
3. Any Storm Bolter that Sternguard buy is compatible with Special Ammo; simply use the Assault 2 Profile instead of Rapid Fire. Sternguard can also buy up to four Special/Heavy Weapons in a squad. - If they can swap out their Bolt guns for Special/Heavy Weapons, I would give it to them at a points discount so as to off-set the points of their Special ammo (or make the Special ammo have a points cost).
4. Vanguard have access to Eviscerators, and are 20 points each. - Makes sense to me!

Heavy Support Fixes:
1. All Land Raider variants are 190 points now - Eh, seems a bit much in discount, but it's a start.
2. Devastator Centurions pay 35 points for their Grav Cannon and Amp - I never use them, nor do I see them fielded often. I guess it's okay. But if Grav weapons are less effective, shouldn't their points reflect this? Make changes all together, not detached from each other.
3. Whirlwinds are 60 points now - Is the 5 points going to make a difference? Otherwise it's okay.
4. Devastator Marines are 19 points per model outside the Sergeant, and everyone besides the Sergeant has a Heavy Bolter standard. Upgrades for weapons are now 5 points less due to everyone having a Heavy Bolter standard. - I like this one!

III - CODEX Chaos Space Marines - I don't play Chaos Marines, so I don't have much to say about them. Just be sure to make their equivalent items from their loyalist brothers get equal treatment. Let's see what I can find...

Spoiler:

Legion Fixes:
1. All Veterans Of The Long War in an Iron Warriors Detachment have the Intractable Brotherhood rule standard.
2. All Veterans Of The Long War in a Word Bearers Detachment have Crusader standard.
3. All Veterans Of The Long War in an Alpha Legion Detachment have Move Through Cover.
4. All Veterans Of The Long War in a Thousand Sons Detachment have Fearless and reroll any failed Deny The Witch tests.

Weapon Fixes:
1. Combi-Bolters function as two Bolters that fire at the same time. - Seems fun to me.
2. Plasma Pistols and Combi-Weapons are 5 points now.
3. Heavy Bolters are Salvo 2/4 or Heavy 4
4. Reaper Autocannons are Heavy 3 Twin-Linked.
5. Chainswords have rerolls of 1 to wound.
6. Flakk Missiles are standard on all Missile Launchers

Special Equipment, Icon, and Mark Fixes, along with Relics:
1. Palanquins and Juggernaughts are 30 points now
2. The Aura Of Dark Glory is 10 points now
3. The Mark Of Khorne gives +1 Attack
4. The Icon Of Wrath only has the rerolling charges clause and is now 15 points
5. The Icon Of Excess is now 30 points.
6. The Icon Of Flame gives Soul Blaze to all range weapons in the unit.
7. The Murder Sword activates its current traits when in a challenge. The Scrolls Of Magnus are 25 points now. The Dimmensional Key is now 20 points.
8. The Hand Of Darkness is now 40 points. The Eye Of Night is now 45 points. The Crucible Of Lies doesn't confer a -1T penalty and is now 15 points.
9. The Skull Of Monarchia is now 10 points. The Cursed Crozius confers Preferred Enemy (Everything) to the bearer.
10. The Viper's Bite is Assault 2.
11. The Plague Skull Of Glothila is AP2 and is now 20 points. The Puscleaver has Rending. The Plaguebringer has Shred.
12. The Cranium Malevolus is now 25 points. The Warpbreacher is now 20 points. The Nest Of Mechaserpents is now 15 points
13. The Crimson Killer is now 15 points.

HQ Fixes
1. Warpsmiths and Dark Apostles are 100 points each and have access to Special Issue Wargear and Chaos Steeds. - Shouldn't they cost the same as their Loyalist counterparts?
2. Lucius has Fleet. If Lucius is slain in a challenge by a non-Necron or Tyranid character, the character that slayed him must pass a LD test. If the character fails, roll another dice and on a 4+ the character is removed from the table and Lucius is placed in that exact spot. Lucius can also purchase a Steed Of Slaanesh for 20 points. - Lucius's ability seems wonky to me. I'm not familiar with the character, but this seems like it needs a full reworking.
3. Kharn has Decapitating Blow on Gorechild and has Eternal Warrior. Kharn is now 190 points and may purchase a Juggernaught Of Khorne for 30 points.
4. Ahriman has AP3 on his Staff and is 220 points now.
5. Typhus has It Will Not Die and is 225 points now. Typhus may purchase a Palanquin Of Nurgle for 30 points.
6. Huron loses Specialist Weapon on his Claw and gains Feel No Pain. Huron is now 170 points.
7. In addition to the default Warlord Trait he has, Abigail can roll for a second trait from any of the BRB tables, Codex: Chaos Space Marines table, and Black Legion table (rerolling Black Crusader obviously).

Troop Fixes:
1. Chaos Space Marines have an extra CCW standard. - I would make them the exact same as Tactical Marines, but give them something that would work in place of and equivalent to your new ATSKNF. And then give Tactical Marines the option to take additional CCWs.
. Can take Land Raiders as a Dedicated Transport - Maybe in certain formations or Legions? Seems a bit much.
. For every additional 5 Marines in the squad, another Special or Heavy Weapon can be purchased. - Hm... seems okay to me.
2. Cultists are 3 points each, and the Champion is 13 points

Elites Fixes: - This seems mostly okay to me. I like the access to Land Raiders for Cult Marines. Comments below.
1. All Terminators are 28 points each - I would knock them down to 25, since they aren't coming with a Power Fist.
. Lightning Claws are 3 points each - Maybe 5 points each?
. Power Fists are 5 points each
. Chainfists are 10 points each
. Up to two models in the unit may purchase Reaper Autocannons for 20 points each or Heavy Flamers for 10 each - However many Heavy Weapons Loyalists can take, I feel that Chaos should get the option for just as many.
. The Champion pays the same points for all upgrades as regular members
2. Plague Marines are 23 points each, and the Champion is 33 points
. Everyone has Poison (2+) on all range and melee weapons and grenades, including upgrades
. Can take Land Raiders as a Dedicated Transport
3. Noise Marines are 19 points each, and the Champion is 29 points
. All models in the squad have Sonic Blasters, which are now Assault 2, as well as the extra CCW's and all models have Fleet
. Blastmasters are 25 points each
. Can take Land Raiders as a Dedicated Transport
4. Berserker Marines are 20 points each, and the Champion is 30 points
. Everyone in the squad has Chainaxes which are now S+1 and AP4, and now have Rending for the first round of combat
. Up to two models can buy Eviscerators for 20 points each
. Can take Land Raiders as a Dedicated Transport
5. Rubric Marines are now 22 points each, and the Champion being 57 points
. Up to two models can buy a Heavy Bolter or Autocannon with Inferno Bolts for 10 points, and one in every ten may purchase a Soulreaper Cannon for 20 points
. As long as the Champion is alive, you can select the following benefits until the beginning of the next turn:
a. The squad has Relentless, 2 Attacks base, and fires Overwatch at full BS
b. The squad has BS5, Rending, and the unit fired at must reroll all successful invulnerable saves
c. The squad has Shred, Ignores Cover, and gain Soul Blaze. If Soul Blaze is already present, you can reroll the result, picking the highest value.
. Can take Land Raiders as a Dedicated Transport
6. Possessed Marines are 30 points each, and the Champion is 30 points
. Can take Land Raiders as a Dedicated Transport
. Each model has 2 Wounds
7. Chosen are 21 points each, and the Champion is 21 points
. Power Weapons and Lightning Claws are 5 points, and Power Fists are 10 points
. You can get up to three Heavy Weapons in the squad, not including the Special Weapons
. You can take one of the following USR's for the squad before deployment: Tank Hunters, Monster Hunters, Infiltrate, Shrouded, Hit And Run, or Daemon
8. Mutilators are 50 points each and may be taken at 5 in a squad.

Fast Attack Fixes:
1. Spawn have Furious Charge instead of Rage and can be taken up to 10 in a squad
2. Raptors are 16 points each, and the Champion is 26 points
. They are treated as having Chainswords standard
3. Heldrakes have a 180 degree firing arc for their weapon of choice
. Heldrakes start at 150 points with the Hades Autocannon, and pay 20 to upgrade to the Baleflamer
4. Warp Talons are 27 points each, and the Champion is 37 points.

Heavy Support Fixes:
1. Obliterators are 65 points each and can be taken in squads up to 5
2. Maulerfiends have 3 attacks base
3. Forgefiends have 3 attacks base and are 155 points each
4. Land Raiders are 170 points each
5. Havocs start at 17 points, and the Champion is 22 points, everyone outside the Champion coming with a Heavy Bolter standard. All Heavy Weapons upgrades are at 5 points less because of this
6. The Defiler has an addition HP, becomes a Super Heavy Vehicle, and is now 265 points - This seems like overkill to me.

IV - CODEX Necrons

Spoiler:

Special Rules Fixes:
1. All models have Relentless standard - Considering Necron shooting units don't really want to get into Melee, this is harmless.
2. On a roll to wound with a 6, Gauss weapons impose a -1 penalty to any save the unit might have gotten. This can obviously get rid of a 6++ or a 6+ cover save. - Interesting, but seems strange. It could be neat.
3. Tesla weapons lose the Snap Firing clause. - Rather, I would rework Snap Firing as a rule.

Special Equipment Fixes and Relics:
1. Mindshackle Scarabs impose a LD test in a challenge done on 3D6. If it is failed, the challenger may only hit the Necron character on a 6. - Or maybe a penalty to WS? I like the thinking here.
2. Tesseract Labyrinths are added back for any character to purchase for 25 points.
3. Dispersion Shields regain the reflect rule from the 5th edition codex - Eh, seems like another rule to remember. Maybe the unit gains Blind when a successful Invuln save is passed? Or the assaulter counts as a disordered charge against them when they pass their save?
4. The Orb Of Eternity is now 35 points.

HQ Fixes:
1. Overlords can buy a Jump Pack for 15 points. They can purchase a Hyperphase Sword + Dispersion Shield for 10 points or Voidblade + Particle Caster for 5 points - One of the things I both like and dislike about Necrons Codex is the lack of options for the models. I do like the Jump Pack option though.
2. Command Barges get the sweep attack they lost from the 5th edition codex
3. Destroyer Lords have a Warscythe by default and are now 120 points. - I think giving them options works out fine. I would rather they be WS and BS 5 like standard Overlords.
4. Crypteks can upgrade to the following rules. These upgrades are only once per detachment. In addition to their Staff Of Light:
. Harbingers Of Destruction carry the same weapon that Illuminor has, their unit has defensive grenades, and gains the Solar Pulse ability from the Solar Staff for a total of 30 points
. Harbingers Of Despair gain a S8 AP2 Assault 1 Flamer that rolls against LD to wound, their unit gains Deep Strike, and once per turn can force a Morale Check on an enemy unit for a total of 30 points
. Harbingers Of Storm gain a 12" S4 AP- Assault 4 Haywire Weapon, enemy units cannot Deep Strike within 8" of their unit, and enemies charging them suffer D6 AP- wounds for a total of 25 points
. Harbingers Of Eternity gain a S:User AP2 Melee weapon, a 3++ save, and can reroll one dice for their unit per phase for a total of 20 points
. Harbingers Of Transmorgification gain a 30" S5 AP6 Assault 1 Blast Weapon that forces the unit hit to move as though it were in difficult terrain, their unit has Move Through Cover, and enemies charging at their unit suffer a 3" penalty to their charge for a total of 25 points
5. Anrakyr has a Master-Crafted Warscythe, and may choose which weapon to fire with his Mind In The Machine ability.
6. Trazyn has the Objective Secured rule, and his Surrogate Hosts rule includes Lychguard models. Trazyn is now 155 points.
7. Obyron has WS7, and Cleaving Counterblow activates in any initiative step when an opponent's model attacks in a challenge and misses; these additional attacks of course roll to hit as normal.
8. Szeras has It Will Not Die!
9. Zandrekh's Counter Tactics is instead a once-per-turn ability, and he chooses a squad within 12" to benefit from one of those listed Special Rules. Nemesor is now 170 points.

Troop Fixes:
1. Warriors are now 14 points per model
2. Immortals are now 18 points per model

Fast Attack Fixes:
1. Destroyers have 2 attacks in their profile
2. Tomb Blades pay 5 points for Shield Vanes and 3 points for Nebulascopes, and are now 19 points
3. Ghost Arks have no limitation on being only able to carry Warriors. - I like it!
4. Night Scythes are now 125 points.

Elite Fixes:
1. Deathmarks select their target for Hunters From Hyperspace when they deploy
2. Triarch Stalkers have AP2 melee attacks. - I like it! How about just Smash standard for all Walkers thought?
3. All C'Tan variants are moved here. In the shooting phase, roll a D3 to determine how many shooting attacks the C'Tan can perform. Each attack, if more than two can be targeted at different units.

Heavy Support Fixes:
1. Annihilation Barges are now 110 points
2. Monoliths lose Ordnance on their Particle Whip. Portal Of Exile is given back from the 5th edition codex. - I do believe that Ordnance needs to be changed overall.

Lord Of War Fixes:
1. Obelisks have a 270 degree firing arc for their Tesla Spheres, and that goes for the Tesla Spheres on the Tesseract Vault as well.
2. Tesseract Vaults roll 2D3, picking the highest value, when determining how many C'Tan shooting attacks it may make.
3. The Stormlord has a S+1 AP2 melee profile for his Staff Of The Destroyer, and continues rolling for the Lord Of The Storm attack so long as Night Fighting is active. The Stormlord is now 210 points.

V - CODEX Tyranids - I don't play Tyranids, so I can't comment on these ideas. However, I would give Warriors Eternal Warrior so they see some use again, and make Geanstealers the same across the Tyranids and Geanstealer Cult books.

Wyldhunt wrote:
I like a lot of these! Commenting as I go through...

Main Rulebook:
* The "half grenades" rule seems like an odd compromise. I think it works mechanically, but I'm not sure it's really an improvement over "1 grenade per squad" or "everyone gets a grenade." I feel like either of these latter options might be cleaner and easier to both work with and to balance model rules and wargear prices around.

*Your psychic power proposals don't seem unresonable. I don't think there's anything wrong with most of the telekinesis or even pyromancy powers themselves. It's just that they tend to be overshadowed by more powerful or generally useful powers from other disciplines. So your porposals seem fine, but I feel it might be better to overhaul some core assumptions regarding the psychic system if we want to see major improvement.

MARINES
* Chainswords getting half of preferred enemy is redundant if you take any other rule that provides a similar benefit. I kind of like the idea of giving chainswords rending, +1 to the user's strength, or -1 to enemy armor saves. But that's its own conversation.

*Grav. I love your suggestions in general here. I'm not wild about rolling "d2" to determine how many hull points I take off of a big thing though. Maybe keep it at -1 HP, but replace the d2 part with "counts as being immobilized until the start of the next marine turn?" That way, you're still damaging them consistently without becoming D-strength, and you can set up other units to damage the super heavies more reliably.

CHAOS MARINES
* See marine-related stuff.
* The points costs I can't really comment on. I don't have my CSM book in front of me right now. I will say that I feel chaos is actually in a pretty good spot right now thanks to the Legions book.

NECRONS
*Tesla needs the snapfiring clause. Otherwise you end up in the 6th edition codex's situation where tesla is weirdly effective when snapfiring at flyers, etc.

*The C'tan getting d3 attacks is meant to off-set the randomness of their attacks, I assume? Or just to make them more powerful? I feel the latter might be too big an improvement, and the former is more easily done by simply letting them declare their target after generating the power. Or by having them generate the power at the start of the game like psychic powers.

TYRANIDS
*Scything talons. Not sure what you mean here. Is it a single reroll on your to-wounds per model like digital weapons? Is it rerolling all to-wound rolls of 1? If the latter, why to-wound rolls instead of to-hit like it used to be? Also, would this be a rule that only applied to attacks made with talons, or are talons treated as wargear that benefits other weapons? Sort of like harlequin weapons?

* Is the change to catalyst specifically to benefit GMCs? I can't think of any other FNP bugs. Oops. I see it now. The warrior buff.

*While I like the changes to the prime, I don't feel that his primary issue, that being his insane cost, is really addressed. While I like the options you've given him, I'd much rather have him simply start at a much lower cost with less expensive upgrades. Tyranids need a cheapish HQ option, and you've taken away Death Leaper as that option.

*Shrikes granting hit & run to all units in range seems extremely good. Especially when coupled with 'nids ability to tarpit extremely effectively. You could easily tarpit a knight, for instance, and then hit & run out to blast him with electroshock grubs before tying him up again. Or simply engage the entire enemy army, and then tear them apart unit by unit at your leisure. I'd take another look at this one and consider toning it down. Shrikes are already more desirable in your proposed rules set because they can keep up with beast gaunts while warriors can't.

*Hammer of wrath doesn't make a lot of sense on the trygon and seems like a bit of a pain logistically. It's one thing to resolve hammer of wraths with a marine bike army that often doesn't really want to charge you and generally has a relatively small model count. Imagine slowing the game down to position 50+ gaunts in such a way as to maximize your number of hammer of wraths. Also, I'm not clear on why the trygon grants that particular synapse buff. Would +1 initiative or +1 attack on the charge be more appropriate? Maybe even counting as having assault grenades as the trygon passes on information about the terrain using its "tremor sense."

*I'm not sure making the rupture cannon AP2 and cheaper really fixes its issues. You're still averaging a single glance and a single pen against most targets (that don't have some sort of save agains the attack). Making it AP2 just means that you'll average one exploded vehicle once a game if make one pen stick per turn.


Anything I didn't comment on is either awesome or something I didn't feel strongly about one way or the other.

 JNAProductions wrote:
A few things:

Why are Warpsmiths and Dark Apostles so much more expensive than Space Marine equivalents?

Why does Kharne-and ONLY Kharne-get Eternal Warrior? When Typhus, the champion of the god of NEVER F-ING DYING, doesn't?

jade_angel wrote:
With the exception of a few minor cavils that others have mentioned, I mostly like these. However, I do have a question about one odd interaction with Gauss weapons - on a 6, you get a -1 penalty to saves. Does this affect AP? Suppose a Tomb Blade shoots at a Battle Sister with a gauss blaster and gets a 6 to wound - does she make an armor save that passes on a 4+, or does the gauss blaster's AP4 punch through that? (Obviously, her 6++ is neutralized).

 JNAProductions wrote:
Also, can you fix the WS chart? It's really dumb right now.

If you'd like, I can write up a WS chart fix.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I like the core-rules tweaks overall, most of my disagreements are minor/stylistic.

Space Marines:
I'm skeptical of giving vehicles Chapter Tactics; it does almost nothing for most Chapters (given that Dreadnaughts already have Chapter Tactics). Running down the list the Chapters it does affect:
Imperial Fists: All benefits would apply fully to vehicles. Minor buffs, to be sure, but still buffs when almost no other Chapter is getting anything.
Black Templars: Non-Dreadnaught vehicles are getting Adamantium Will. A negligible benefit.
Salamanders: Land Speeders are getting twin-linked flamers. Significant, yes, but as Salamanders fluffwise don't have any Land Speeders it's an odd choice for a thing to buff.

And from Forge World:
Raptors: Depending on whether you apply the interpretation that a twin-linked weapon is a distinct weapon and not affected by things that would affect a non-twin-linked version (I know the weapon swaps in the 30k Salamanders and Blood Angels rules work this way) the hurricane bolters on your Land Raider Crusaders and Stormravens could choose to fire three Rending shots if the vehicle didn't move.
Angels Revenant: If you're fighting Necrons your vehicles get Preferred Enemy (Necrons). If you aren't the rule that comes into play instead doesn't do anything for them.
Red Hunters: The Mnemonic Redaction Protocols temporary USR could actually be relevant when applied to vehicles. Like, significantly relevant. Not just a random tiny situational buff the way most of this is.
Star Phantoms: The 1/game twin-linked on all non-Ordnance/Pistol weapons is nice. Unfluffy, but nice.
Fire Hawks: S6 heavy flamers on Land Speeders arriving from Deep Strike. Situational, impractical, but sort of cool.

So by giving vehicles Chapter Tactics you hand out a small set of wonky, unfluffy, or impractical buffs to most people, and an actually cool one to the Red Hunters. It seems more trouble than it's worth, honestly.

On weapons I'm skeptical of 5pts for upgrade pistols given the Gunslinger rule; every sergeant in your army could be spending 10pts for a plasma gun that can't fire single-shot-at-24" mode, or 10pts for two S8 shots. If you're going to keep the pistols at 5pts I'd say reduce the hitting power a bit the way the hand flamer is lower strength than the normal flamer (you're still spending 5pts for a S6/AP2 shot), but otherwise keep the plasma/inferno pistols at 10pts.

As for the Marine unit fixes they mostly make sense; I'd like to request that Vulkan and Lysander get Eternal Warrior back on profile instead of having to burn their Warlord Trait to do it.

And Tactical Terminators really ought to be 30pts with power weapons, and the option to upgrade to power fists. Even with cheaper assault cannons, more heavy weapons, and S5 storm bolters the problem of paying for powerfists on a unit you may not want anywhere near combat persists.

Not sure about porting Legion heavy support squads directly into the Devastator squad slot; I get that you're trying to distinguish Devastators from Tactical Marines after handing Tacticals the option to have three heavy weapons at ten models but I'd rather keep the option to have ablative wounds rather than being forced to pay for guns on everyone. Let everyone buy a heavy weapon, don't force them to start with it (this would also avoid needing to have multiple pricings on the armoury table).

Poison (2+) on all attacks for Plague Marines seems a bit excessive. I'm aware that the Deathwatch have Posioned (2+) bolt rounds, but they don't get Poison (2+) on grenades, flamers, or attacks with any AP value, and they're also not T5/FNP. I'm also aware you're trying to distinguish Plague Marines from Nurgle-marked Marines. I'd rather see Poison (3+) on bolt weapons and melee attacks only, leave the grenades/special weapons using their base profile.

Land Raider prices seem like they're starting to stretch past reasonable to me. I'd keep the base variants at 200pts and give CSM PotMS (given both that they had it in the 31st milennium and that they're more likely to be experimenting with AI in the interim than the Mechanicum), the Land Raider may be too squishy if you've got the D-weapons to one-shot it but it's also way too tough if you bring it to a game where the other guy wasn't expecting it and doesn't have the specific tools to deal with it (maybe he's Martel and has decided that S7 is the answer to everything, and refused to bring anything else).

Defiler as a 4-HP Superheavy: *bleep* no. It's a well-established fact that 'superheavy' starts at 6HP, if you haven't broken that barrier (Minotaur, Spartan, Lynx) you're still an ordinary vehicle. And the Defiler isn't really big enough to justify it. Look at the height and bulk of anything in the existing rules with Stomp, then look at the Defiler.

If you want to give the Defiler a pseudo-Stomp rule I'd say write up a pseudo-Stomp rule rather than making it a superheavy and giving it multiple chances per turn for a 6-to-RFP template at a bizarre pricepoint and model-size bracket.

1. Being in a vehicle shouldn't suddenly make the Imperial Fists less good at shooting Bolter weapons or for whatever reason not give the Flamestorm benefits when used by Salamanders. It simply makes more sense. I haven't done the FW stuff for any codex yet. I want to focus on the codex stuff first and then start tackling the FW stuff.

2. Pistols have too short of range to really be that expensive. The balance between them and Combi-Weapons is that the Combi gets more range anyway, plus any sergeant is likely going to die anyway after firing those shots. Rule of cool applies here I suppose. Plasma Pistols are also only S7 and hand flamers are already significantly weaker than a regular flamer...

3. Tactical Terminators will keep their Power Fists. This is a legacy issue on top of a way to differentiate them from Grey Knights, Space Wolves, and Chaos Marines.

4. Deathwatch and Sternguard have multiple ammo options and more weapon choices compared to Plague Marines. It doesn't terribly break them and gives them a more offensive punch to make up for their smaller numbers compared to other options. Plus it really isn't that bad mathematically. The furthest I'll compromise is making everything Poison (3+) but that's about it.

5. You don't pay for a lot with a Land Raider outside the AV14 and transport capacity. If you've played with a 170 point Chaos Land Raider you'll see it isn't that big a deal. This makes them something reasonable that might pop up and ergo you need to dedicate more to less, so to speak.

6. I swear I gave the Defiler another HP. I think it's large enough to qualify but I suppose we need everyone else to chime in.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Does it ever strike anyone else as odd that I, the Eldar player in the room, am the one trying to argue that a sane response to the OPness of some of the Eldar book is to nerf the problem units instead of buffing the rest of the game to compensate, while it's the Space Marine players claiming that the Eldar players will never accept a nerf and they have to rewrite their Codexes to fight D-weapon spam and scatterbikes?

1. Being in a vehicle shouldn't suddenly make the Imperial Fists less good at shooting Bolter weapons or for whatever reason not give the Flamestorm benefits when used by Salamanders. It simply makes more sense. I haven't done the FW stuff for any codex yet. I want to focus on the codex stuff first and then start tackling the FW stuff.

I'm not saying being in a vehicle should make Imperial Fist suddenly less good at shooting bolters. I'm saying that Chapter Tactics generally deserve a rethink if you want to apply this change rather than making a one-sentence change that doesn't make a lot of sense anywhere else.

2. Pistols have too short of range to really be that expensive. The balance between them and Combi-Weapons is that the Combi gets more range anyway, plus any sergeant is likely going to die anyway after firing those shots. Rule of cool applies here I suppose. Plasma Pistols are also only S7 and hand flamers are already significantly weaker than a regular flamer...

Why would you ever take a meltagun again, if you could get two shots for the same price on a unit that's already busy getting to point-blank range of its targets? Combined with Drop Pods you're going to functionally double the effectiveness of suicide-melta for free because...rule of cool?

(EDIT): Suggest giving the Eldar drop pods and give Fire Dragons dual fusion pistols and I promise I'll take the whole pistol suggestion seriously.

3. Tactical Terminators will keep their Power Fists. This is a legacy issue on top of a way to differentiate them from Grey Knights, Space Wolves, and Chaos Marines.

I'm sorry, but this is a stupid argument. 40pts/model for Terminators was a legacy issue. Trying to claim a single autocannon is a useful main gun for a tank is a legacy issue. Legacy issues are a terrible reason for doing anything.

If you're so insistent on differentiating units from the six Legions in the vanilla book from Space Wolf Terminators why aren't you arguing that Blood Angels and Deathwing need different basic armaments? Why aren't you trying to replace the bolter on Tactical Squads? Why do Terminators deserve to be stuck with stupid expensive toys they never get to make use of? Why do Salamanders Terminators and Imperial Fists Terminators have the same armament if neither one ought to have the same armament as Space Wolf Terminators? Why aren't you trying to differentiate Space Wolf Terminators from Chaos Terminators? Why are GK even in this argument, they've got force weapons, not power weapons?

4. Deathwatch and Sternguard have multiple ammo options and more weapon choices compared to Plague Marines. It doesn't terribly break them and gives them a more offensive punch to make up for their smaller numbers compared to other options. Plus it really isn't that bad mathematically. The furthest I'll compromise is making everything Poison (3+) but that's about it.

...

...

...

...No, seriously, when did wounds everything short of a Wraithknight on 2+ become not that bad mathematically?

5. You don't pay for a lot with a Land Raider outside the AV14 and transport capacity. If you've played with a 170 point Chaos Land Raider you'll see it isn't that big a deal. This makes them something reasonable that might pop up and ergo you need to dedicate more to less, so to speak.

And if you'd ever tried to play GK, or Orks, or a 30k list with no superheavies, you'd recognize that AV14 all-round is a huge deal.

6. I swear I gave the Defiler another HP. I think it's large enough to qualify but I suppose we need everyone else to chime in.

...You need everyone else to chime in to tell you that the Defiler is only 5-6" tall and the next-smallest model with Stomp is over a foot tall?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

1. Which Chapter Tactics really cause an issue though with that single wording? If it is too many I'll do everyone individually.

2. You'd take a Melta Gun because it isn't an option for anyone not a character and has twice the range, which makes Melta easier to do? You do know that the range of an inferno pistol is 6"? It seems you're unfamiliar with some of the stats of the weapons here.
Also that Fire Dragon comment makes less sense because on top of everyone getting Melta Guns standard they get bonuses to blowing things up? The only way to do what you want is 5 Vanguard all with Pistols in a Pod. Vanguard are 19 a piece and the Drop Pod is 35 with everyone being 10 points more each (so 29). That's really not bad. Pretty sure your Dragons aren't near that price.

3. They're supposed to make use of Power Fists. The issue comes from variants being too expensive and paying for a small amount of heavy weapons and Storm Bolters. I fixed this issue. At 30 points with Power weapons you can compare to Vanguard and Honour Guard.
Also I plan to differentiate Space Wolf Terminators from the other guys. Grey Knights only need a couple of tweaks. However, Tactical Terminators have always had Power Fists and Chainfists. That's their thing. I'm simply making them more worth the cost. If you want hidden power fists I listed units to help you out.

4. Sternguard aren't broken, are they? It is the same offensive output except Sternguard are cheaper. These are Bolters and special weapons we are talking about. This isn't like Windriders where everyone is throwing out 3-4 shots for 27 points. These guys throw out 1-2 each for 22-23 points. Now you can do the math instead of just saying it is ridiculous.

5. Defilers might be 6" tall (though I believe they're 8"), they also occupy a lot of space.
I can compromise by simply giving them the Stomp rule and figuring out a different way to make them appealing. Maybe they just gain 3" to their movement...

 JNAProductions wrote:
ATSKNF is an insanely good rule.

And I'd consider giving the Defiler everything a Superheavy gets BUT Stomp-that might make it good. Stomp is too good, though.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
ATSKNF is an insanely good rule.

And I'd consider giving the Defiler everything a Superheavy gets BUT Stomp-that might make it good. Stomp is too good, though.

How about a singular Stomp attack? After all, with all those legs it should be able to do gak.
Giving it Rampage makes sense too. It is hard to give the Defiler a specific role...

 Charistoph wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
ATSKNF is an insanely good rule.

And I'd consider giving the Defiler everything a Superheavy gets BUT Stomp-that might make it good. Stomp is too good, though.

How about a singular Stomp attack? After all, with all those legs it should be able to do gak.
Giving it Rampage makes sense too. It is hard to give the Defiler a specific role...

And maybe set it up like the Eldar Wraith Troops D-Weapons so that its ability to RFP be curtailed? It's big, but it's not Knight big.

 Charistoph wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
ATSKNF is an insanely good rule.

And I'd consider giving the Defiler everything a Superheavy gets BUT Stomp-that might make it good. Stomp is too good, though.

How about a singular Stomp attack? After all, with all those legs it should be able to do gak.
Giving it Rampage makes sense too. It is hard to give the Defiler a specific role...

And maybe set it up like the Eldar Wraith Troops D-Weapons so that its ability to RFP be curtailed? It's big, but it's not Knight big.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Wraithguard need a whole reworking. I know I'd like the Scythes to be S4 AP2 Fleshbane and glances vehicles on a 4+. However I haven't really finalized anything with them. Right now after finishing the Tyranids codex I'd like people here to decide which codex I really focus on.

Jbz` wrote:Stomp should be curtailed by changes to how stomp works.
It's way too inconsistent in power.
Anything in 3+ armour or better is pretty much safe.
Vehicles are pretty much always going to suffer a penetrating hit

Does that really make sense to anyone?

I'd suggest changing stomp to all models under the marker take an Initiative test, any that fail take a hit at the Stomping model's strength (no weapon/furious charge bonuses, but blessing and malediction modifiers still apply) and Ap2.-Vehicles would take the hit on their side armour value.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So I obviously make lots of suggestions in different threads on how to fix stuff, but don't really keep everything together in one neat package. This kinda alleviates that I guess. People expecting consistent updates are to be disappointed, because I work most days of the week on top of additional schooling. That's the price I pay, I guess. One thing to note is that all initial fixes are made without considering Formations. I want to make things work enough that you'll want to take a couple of CADs because variety is the spice of life and all that jazz. So anybody playtesting these rules (if you really want to do that for whatever reason) needs to really keep that in mind. Also I'll listen to any criticisms you have, but if your reasoning is "It doesn't feel right" I'll ignore it because that's not based off math or fluff.

 Charistoph wrote:

It makes sense, but how would that affect a Defiler's Stomp? Having a Stomp would be helpful, and rather characterful, but if it does have a Stomp, it should not be as powerful as what an Imperial Knight so have a reduced effect.

 koooaei wrote:
orks of course


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, for 30 pts possessed should have rending, 2 ccw and charge after run as base option - like wuffen. Cause 2 wounds are not enough to justify their mediocricy for such an enormous price. Or just make them significantly cheaper.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, there's nothing about mutilators other than a 5 pt drop - i assume they're great as is

 kirotheavenger wrote:
As a Blood Angels player I object to you squatting all of our unique units, otherwise known as half th codex

I don't think storm bolters should be S5, they're bolters.They should either function like 2 bolters fired as a single weapon, or have rending. The first one at least makes the Sternguard issue instantly moot.

5pts for a pistol is incredibly cheap. They sacrifice a small (yes small) amount of range for double the RoF and a CCW. Don't forget you can assault after firing plasma pistols.

Personally I'd like Devastators to be able to take special weapons as well. But they'd be insane in Drop Pods.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Fast Vehicles can easily be covered as a general upgrade. What was it, like 10 points on all their vehicles? Martel would know off the top of his head.
Furiosos were Ironclad Dreads for all intents and purposes outside the fact they had access to Frag Cannons, which was the only reason they were used. Ergo that would just go under unique wargear for them after I get a couple more codices tackled.
Sanguine Guard were not Marine killers. Sanguine Guard were worse than Death Company in pretty much every aspect outside tanking AP3 weapons.

I did forget about adding the option for Command Squads to buy Jump Packs though so I'll amend that later today.

 kirotheavenger wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Fast Vehicles can easily be covered as a general upgrade. What was it, like 10 points on all their vehicles? Martel would know off the top of his head.
Furiosos were Ironclad Dreads for all intents and purposes outside the fact they had access to Frag Cannons, which was the only reason they were used. Ergo that would just go under unique wargear for them after I get a couple more codices tackled.
Sanguine Guard were not Marine killers. Sanguine Guard were worse than Death Company in pretty much every aspect outside tanking AP3 weapons.

I did forget about adding the option for Command Squads to buy Jump Packs though so I'll amend that later today.

Furiosos are half Ironclads and half Venerables. They also got magna grapples, blood talons and WS5. Plus Librarians.
Sanguinary Guard all have master crafted power weapons and unique bolt weapons. Also, regardless of if they're good or not (is that not the point of fixes) they're unique, cool and fluffy. You have no need to reject them just because Death Company (which btw you've also squatted so surely it's a mute point) are more points efficient in most cases. Sanguinary Guard are tougher, especially when you add in a Sanguinary Priest so they also get FNP.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Furiosos are half Ironclads and half Venerables. They also got magna grapples, blood talons and WS5. Plus Librarians.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Sanguinary Guard all have master crafted power weapons and unique bolt weapons. Also, regardless of if they're good or not (is that not the point of fixes) they're unique, cool and fluffy. You have no need to reject them just because Death Company (which btw you've also squatted so surely it's a mute point) are more points efficient in most cases. Sanguinary Guard are tougher, especially when you add in a Sanguinary Priest so they also get FNP.

Martel732 wrote:
Why not have 3 or 4 pages for the unique units instead of an entire codex?

 kirotheavenger wrote:

Now, is it really fair if BAs get everything space marines get plus 20 more?

 kirotheavenger wrote:
WS5 does matter. That's hitting on a 3+ instead of a 4+.
They also lack the seismic hammer, and only have 12 on the sides (I think Ironclads are 13 on the sides).
And don't forget Death Company Dreadnoughts (that's even if you take the liberty of giving all chapters Furioso Librarian Dreadnoughts)
And compare this, if I recall the Black Templars have 3 unique entries in the codex, BA would need 20 unique entries if you include the 3 unique units I know of outside our codex (btw they share 26 entries, so our codex is roughly 45% unique).
That'd be a hell of a squeeze to get into 3-4 pages. What would you cut?
Now, is it really fair if BAs get everything space marines get plus 20 more?

How much more unique are space wolves compared to the BA?
Could that just be perception bias because it just so happens SW unique units are top tier atm and BA units aren't?

Jbz` wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:

Now, is it really fair if BAs get everything space marines get plus 20 more?

More than 1/2 of BA only things are unique characters. Almost all chapters have a bunch (Some have more than others, UM/BA/SW etc having more than most)
Ultramarines have what, 5 characters? BA have a lot more. They don't have to share. If you think they should share, which ones do you propose to squat? Tycho is the only obvious choice, the rest are like squatting Him, Cato Sicarius.

As for the rest:
Dreadnoughts only really need one page if you make everything an upgrade option. (Just like Land Raiders- there is no need for 3 near identical units that can be made with options)
I disagree, Raiders change their transport capacity and weapons. Although it's doable.
Dreadnoughts however change weapons, armour, special rules and base stats. Frankly the only thing that remains a constant is that they have 'Dreadnought' somewhere in the name.
Sanguinary Guard are basically just honour guard with jump packs.
Eh, and the bolters and fancy swords and death masks. Plus Honour Guard don't have jump packs.
Baal Predator- I see no reason why other chapters wouldn't have copied their armament (simply have Overcharged engines tacked onto Blood Angel/successor vehicles via Chapter tactics or something)
[b]If you give Baal Predators to all you're completely retconning all the fluff surrounding the vehicle, you're retconning why the BA have such tenuous relations with the Mechanicum, and for what? Because you want the toy too.
And the Sanguinary Priest- Again I see no reason to disallow Hq Apothecaries for other chapters (Blood Chalice can be an upgrade for BA)
[i]Sanguinary Priests are a big part of Blood Angels. It's part of what makes them unique. Blood Angels deviate from the codex in that their apothecaries hold equal rank to Chaplains, and above Librarians. That is not normal, that is why other chapters don't have apothecary HQs.

As for the "Death Company Chaplain" why they felt the need to add this guy I don't know, a standard chaplain is far more flexible to use.
[b][b]But a DC Chaplain turns Death Company into one hell of a beat stick. Personally why Lemartes isn't one I don't know though. [/b][/i]

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
WS5 does matter. That's hitting on a 3+ instead of a 4+.
They also lack the seismic hammer, and only have 12 on the sides (I think Ironclads are 13 on the sides).
And don't forget Death Company Dreadnoughts (that's even if you take the liberty of giving all chapters Furioso Librarian Dreadnoughts)
And compare this, if I recall the Black Templars have 3 unique entries in the codex, BA would need 20 unique entries if you include the 3 unique units I know of outside our codex (btw they share 26 entries, so our codex is roughly 45% unique).
That'd be a hell of a squeeze to get into 3-4 pages. What would you cut?
Now, is it really fair if BAs get everything space marines get plus 20 more?

How much more unique are space wolves compared to the BA?
Could that just be perception bias because it just so happens SW unique units are top tier atm and BA units aren't?

1. WS5 doesn't matter. Almost everyone agrees the WS Chart needs to be reworked (which someone presented but I didn't have time to look at thoroughly). Hitting on 3 instead of 4? That's still less than three attacks landing per turn.
WS5 does matter. First it represents a difference, and second it's 2.5 hits vs 3.3 hits of 5 attacks. Reworking the chart so it's not so gakked would surely only extend the difference between WS4 and 5?
2. Everyone should have access to Librarian Dreads. Chaplain Dreads are a FW thing so I I'd have to find the stats and rules for them. With that said, what's the main difference between a regular Dread and the Death Company one? Rage? Access to the shredding power Fists? That's not enough justification for a unit entry.
But FURIOSO Librarian Dreads? The difference between a Death Company Dread and a regular is rage, and double melee weapons. Saying that's not an important difference is stupid because that's like the difference between Vanguard Veterans and Sternguard veterans, or Death Company and Tactical Marines (yet you seem fine with Death Company existing).
3. Black Templar only had one real unique unit in their own Codex. That was the Crusader squad. Everything else was able to be covered in the main codex (Sword Brethren? That's just Vanguard without Jump Packs). The rest of the "unqiue" Blood Angels units can be basically covered outside Death Company. Seriously, Sanguine Guard are just worse Honour Guard. Give the Honour Guard a Jump Pack upgrade and problem solved. Price is to be determined later.
Worse is irrelevant, I thought that's what balancing is for. You talk like jump packs are a small deal, or that giving Honour Guard them wouldn't make a difference. That changes everything, Sanguinary Guard is one of those things that set BA apart from the norm. Not to mention their encarmine blades, death masks and angelus bolters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Regarding Space Wolves, they use completely different organization. The only real difference between Blood Angels and vanilla Marines is that they have Death Company in the fluff.
And Apothecarys with equivalent rank to Chaplain, and unique relic Dreadnoughts, and a Predator STC they withheld from the Mechanicus, and Honour Guard with Jump packs.
Does naming everything wolf blank really make that big of a difference?[i]

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

V - CODEX Tyranids

Spoiler:

Equipment Fixes, Powers, and Relics:
1. Scything Talons allow rerolls of 1 to wound
2. The Norn Crown is now 25 points
3. The Reaper Of Obliterax is AP2 and is now 40 points
4. The Miasma Cannon has Large Blast on its profile
5. The Ymgarl Factor is now 25 points
6. Thorax Biomorphs can be fired in addition to any other weapons the model might be carrying.
7. Catalyst adds 1 to Feel No Pain scores, or gives Feel No Pain (6+) if the unit doesn't have FNP present.
8. Warp Blast is WC1

HQ Fixes:
1. The Hive Tyrant may purchased an Enhanced Exoskeleton which gives a 2+ for 20 points if the Tyrant did not already purchase wings.
. Twinlinked Devourers are 20 points each.
. Wings are 40 points
. Any unit within Synapse range of a Hive Tyrant gains Rage and Counter Attack.
2. The Tyranid Prime is now 90 points and may select to buy Master Level 1 for 25 points. It may buy a Jump Pack for 15 points
. Any unit within Synapse range of the Prime adds +1 to its WS and BS scores
3. The Tervigon is now 175 points.
. Any unit within Synapse range of the Tervigon may add 3" to all charge distances.
4. The Swarmlord is now 265 points.
. Any unit within Synapse range of the Swarmlord has Hatred and Crusader

Troop Fixes:
1. Genestealers have a 5++ save.
2. Any unit within Synapse range of a Warrior gains Feel No Pain.
3. Termagaunts and Hormagaunts are considered Beasts.

Elite Fixes:
1. Any unit within Synapse range of a Zoanthrope gains Adamantium Will
2. Hive Guard are now 45 points each.
3. Lictors are 40 points each.
. The Deathleaper is a 90 point upgrade to a single Lictor brood per army and cannot be the Warlord. Any unit that charges his unit suffers D6 Strength 6 attacks at I10, in addition to his unit benefiting from "Where is it?"
4. Pyrovores gain an additional profile to their gun, which is Heavy 1, Torrent
5. Any wound that the Haruspex inflicts regenerates any lost wounds the model had.
6. Any unit within Synapse range of the Maleceptor rerolls any failed Overwatch results, and the Maleceptor is now 180 points.
. Psychic Overload is WC1

Fast Attack Fixes:
1. Units cannot perform Overwatch on Ravenors
. The Red Terror is now 80 points, and only needs to land 3 attacks for the Swallow Whole ability, which ignores all saves.
2. Any unit within Synapse range of Shrikes has Hit And Run.

Heavy Support Fixes:
1. The Carnifex has It Will Not Die! and is now 110 points.
. Old One Eye is a single 180 point upgrade to any Carnifex brood per army and may never be the Warlord. He has It Will Not Die and Feel No Pain standard.
2. The Trygon is now 180 points, and isn't restricted to what unit type may come from its Subterranean Tunnel.
. Any unit within Synapse range of a Trygon Prime counts as having Assault Grenades. If the unit already counted as having Assault Grenades, it gains +1I when charging.
3. The Tyrannofex's Acid Spray is now AP3. Switching to the Fleshborer Hive is AP4 and is a free exchange. The Tyrannofex may be taken in broods of up to three models.
. The Rupture Cannon is now AP2 and has 3 shots.

I'll take any suggestions for which codex to try and tackle next. I've got ideas for all of them, but obviously I can only do one at a time.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:


Wulfen are more the problem and need a price increase.

Martel732 wrote:
"They die pretty easily against any sort of firepower."

Not with stormshields, they don't. My opponents don't fall into your trap and give them to all of them.

I think Wulfen need a pretty severe nerf, or other assault units need to be made comparable.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Exactly. They pay how much for a hammer and shield? 20? Utterly ridiculous.

Jbz` wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Exactly. They pay how much for a hammer and shield? 20? Utterly ridiculous.

Considering that everyone else pays more for just the thunder hammer that is ridiculous.
Though to me TH/SS Wulfen are a lot less scary than Claw Wulfen.
A tonne of Str 6 attacks, Ap2, shred.
AND with I 5 they're likely to get to attack twice instead of just once if you kill them in melee.

Jbz` wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Exactly. They pay how much for a hammer and shield? 20? Utterly ridiculous.

Considering that everyone else pays more for just the thunder hammer that is ridiculous.
Though to me TH/SS Wulfen are a lot less scary than Claw Wulfen.
A tonne of Str 6 attacks, Ap2, shred.
AND with I 5 they're likely to get to attack twice instead of just once if you kill them in melee.

Martel732 wrote:

Jbz` wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Exactly. They pay how much for a hammer and shield? 20? Utterly ridiculous.

Considering that everyone else pays more for just the thunder hammer that is ridiculous.
Though to me TH/SS Wulfen are a lot less scary than Claw Wulfen.
A tonne of Str 6 attacks, Ap2, shred.
AND with I 5 they're likely to get to attack twice instead of just once if you kill them in melee.

How so? You can't kill the TH/SS variety.

Jbz` wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Jbz` wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Exactly. They pay how much for a hammer and shield? 20? Utterly ridiculous.

Considering that everyone else pays more for just the thunder hammer that is ridiculous.
Though to me TH/SS Wulfen are a lot less scary than Claw Wulfen.
A tonne of Str 6 attacks, Ap2, shred.
AND with I 5 they're likely to get to attack twice instead of just once if you kill them in melee.

How so? You can't kill the TH/SS variety.

They're tough, not invincible.
I kill them the same way I kill Thunderwolves.

Bolters/Lasguns etc.
No point firing anything heavy duty at them, go for fire-rate.
The SW player in my group doesn't put storm shields on his guys for that exact reason, they get killed by small arms not Ap 1-3 weapons

 Blackie wrote:
You typically have 2 max 3 models with the shield in a unit of 5 wulfen, as you don't want them to attack at I1.

A 3+ inv in a 2W, T4, 4+ save and FNP isn't that invincible, they're still dudes of foot. Any decent round of S5-6 shooting will decimate them before reaching combat, if you deep strike or maneuver in order to target models without the shield first you can kill them very easily. Killing 2 models with shields is very easy with a good saturation and then your S8 or better weapons can instant kill the remaining ones.

They can also be tarpitted quite easily by blobs as they have many attacks but a ws4 you should waste half of them. I've seen termagants that locked them in combat for three turns and eventually killed the wulfen.

If you put them in a transport they won't reach close combat till turn 3 or even 4, unless you put them in a land raider, and we all know that would mean 250 points wasted.

They're not overpowered I think, their formation is overpowered, as you gain some free bonus and just need two units of them, which you want to take anyway.

I mean wulfen are an amazing unit and they may be a little undercosted but without their current stats, SW would be at the same level of BA if not worse.

Martel732 wrote:


What's wrong with init 1 when your units basically can't die? they have two wounds and the dreaded layered saves. Wulfen are very undecosted given their CC ability relative to other units. I don't think these things should have storm shields, period.

 Blackie wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


What's wrong with init 1 when your units basically can't die? they have two wounds and the dreaded layered saves. Wulfen are very undecosted given their CC ability relative to other units. I don't think these things should have storm shields, period.

They die pretty easily against almost everything, wulfen are very good only against units that have high armor and toughness values. Without the shields a mid sized unit of lootas, tankbustas or devastators can wipe out them in a single round of fire. In close combat they can't handle blobs very well. I always take max 2 models with shields as I want at least 3 models that strike at I4, otherwise if they are massacred. Sure they have their special rule that allow them to attack again but the unit would be screwed for the remaining part of the game. The shields only serve the purpose of minimizing the casualties in the shooting phase.

I'm not saying they're average, they're very good indeed, but they are part of a balanced codex and space wolves can't be top tiers no matter what list you take, that's why I wouldn't like nerfing the wulfen, not only because I typically field a bunch of them Nerfs should only come to those units that belong to top tiers armies, that's my opinion, I don't mind using or facing good or very good units if they are part of a list that is not overpowered at all.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You operate under the assumption Wraiths will have the RP.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You operate under the assumption Wraiths will have the RP.

Okay. They're still faster, have a higher toughness, better initiative (Wulfen CAN get better, at the cost of survivaibility) and are cheaper.

To say Wulfen are unequivocally better is wrong.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You operate under the assumption Wraiths will have the RP.

Okay. They're still faster, have a higher toughness, better initiative (Wulfen CAN get better, at the cost of survivaibility) and are cheaper.

To say Wulfen are unequivocally better is wrong.

Except you don't need the Thunder Hammer on every dude...

You'd think that people would've already come to their senses about Canoptek harvest but oh well.

Besides right now I'm balancing under a CAD. From there, I will work on either fixing formations or eliminating some.

Martel732 wrote:
The Wulfen upgrades are too cheap. That's the whole problem. They are more durable than a TH/SS terminator against most things and should be priced accordingly. Of course, Wraiths should be 60 ppm base as well.

 JNAProductions wrote:
They're also pricier. Unless you consider a 4+ armor, with FNP, equal to a 2+/3++?

 JNAProductions wrote:
Yeah, agreed. Wraiths might be too cheap-maybe (they're not especially killy, for their points)-but a 50% increase would be RIDICULOUS.

 JNAProductions wrote:
They're also pricier. Unless you consider a 4+ armor, with FNP, equal to a 2+/3++?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:


Nobody complains about the CAD ones.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not directly comparing them. But I can hold up the wraiths a lot longer. The Wulfen murder everything they touch instantly.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'm sorry but how are Wulfen struggling with hordes? They've got 3+ attacks and can attack when they die too.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'm sorry but how are Wulfen struggling with hordes? They've got 3+ attacks and can attack when they die too.

 koooaei wrote:
Looks fun but tracking the exact number of models is a pain in the bum.
Not sure about the bigchoppa's ap4 cause it ends up as a two-handed power maul for 5 pts. And orks don't exactly need power mauls - even for 5 pts. The thing is that 4+ save is quite rare. s4 models benefit from +2 str more than nobs - that are s5 on the charge. And an extra attack from 2 ccw that's lost almost compensates the damage difference against t4 enemies. And it's still not good enough for a tankhunter job other than beginning to threaten dreads a bit. And 'eadwompa killchoppa still won't be used with it's ap4. It needs ap3 to even start competing with a power klaw. And still, most people would just take s10 ap2 over it any day. I honestly don't know what to do with a big choppa. Maybe make it some sort of an ork's power weapon.

Kommandoes with +3 to cover, rending and snikrot's charge from reserves would be op. They do need to charge from reserves but rending is probably too much with 4 attacks a pop for 10 ppm.

There are no benefits for shoota boyz. Large mobs could get extra shot or +1 to gun's str benefit or something like that. They really need a helping hand - they allready pay an extra point for a meh weapon - especially for footsloggas that severely lag behind in 6-7 edition.

And grots are gona be super overpriced for 4ppm with guns. Don't forget, they're s2 t2 with no armor and ld5 (7 with a runtherd). My suggestion would be to either make them s3 t3 or drop them to 2 ppm. s3 t3 is preferable cause they allready cost a small fortune $ per point.

Planes are still extremely underwhelming. Ork planes can't land, so their only use is as gunboats. No real need for that when all the other stuff is so much improved. Also, blitza bombers can't jink and drop bombs which is a death sentence to them. My suggestion would be to either make ork planes shootier + tougher with av11 or drop the price. Also, burna bombers simply have no place. s5 ap4 is very weak for such enormous price tag. Make the bombs s6 ap3 ignore cover soul blaze large blasts and skorcha missiles s6 ap3 ignore cover soulblaze small blasts. Ork-style heldrakes. Still not outstanding for 115 or so pts but they'd at least see some table time.

Av14 doesn't fix naughts at all. They need to be superheavies. Maybe a lighter more limited version of superheavies with 9" movement and nerfed stomps or just plain superheavies. They come very close to a wraithknight's price tag. And yet they are worse than landraiders.

Killa kanz and dreads are still really really bad. Especially kanz. The removal of cowardly grots doesn't justify them costing a hefty 50 points for a slow av11 2 hp walker with a s7 ws2 claw. They should cost 30 pts. No more. 35 with grotzookas. Deff dreads are crap not because they lack attacks but because they can't ever make it to combat and are too expensive to be spammed with good results.

Big meks need a little something cause now there's no real point taking them over superior warbosses. KFF is severely overpriced for a 5++ 6" bauble. It either needs to be meaningful again or cost a portion of what it does now. Like 20 pts. And a SAG is also quite bad with how it punishes the bearer with most special effects. Needs to either be more reliable or much cheaper.

Wierdboyz have a crappy ork magic table - that's why they're underwhelming. We need something to deal with invisibility and to increase mobility/durability of our footsloggers. The waaaghpower table needs to be reworked. I've had an idea of how it should be. The general principles are: stronger effects, harder to deny, more dangerous to the wierdboy himself.

Ghazzy needs to be relentless instead of snp to become viable for footslogging blobs. He also needs his old +1 attack back (that got taken away alongside the 5++ with no point reduction in the codex), and fearless or better effigy. Cause now he only seems to inspire orks once per games outside of ghazcurion where he has to spend time with an overly expensive and unwieldy retinue. As is, he's the only lord of war that can get swept. I don't think he needs unwieldy removed. A lot of LOW's have unwieldy weapons. Yep, he's massive but still. He allready gets 2+ 4++ t5 and +1 to fnp. Good enough for the price tag considering all the other buffs. Oh, and his bigshoota MUST be twin-linked. Come on, it's modelled as 2 bigshootas slapped together.

Also, what else should be reworked is Ghaz detachment "bonuses". That are really penalties and not bonuses. +2 to mob rule. When we usually want 1-3 results. And extra casualties from mob rule are not welcomed either.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

1. Giving the Big Choppa AP3 makes it the equivalent of a Relic Blade, which is usually priced at 15-25 points.AP4 is just easier in order to keep the current price tag. Maybe AP3 at 15 points?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

2. It really isn't because Kommandos are Ork Boy stats once they reach combat. Also remember that the Rending only happens in 15+. It's good but you'd have to actually pay for it.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

3. Shoota Boys were never going to gain benefits. Even a free exchange for the Shoota is something you won't do because they're shooting at BS2. It's false hope for all intents and purposes.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

4. I agree. I will bump Gretchen to 2 points each. They're definitely nowhere near deserving of S3 T3. They're not even close to looking as tough as a human.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

5. It's S5 AP4 Ignores Cover. Not everyone needs a Heldrake equivalent but I would be willing to bump some of the AV up.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

6. That's the fault of the wraithKnight, which you and I already knows needs a super increase in points. Try and look at the internal balance of the codices I've tackled, not outside ones.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

7. I can give the Kans and Dreads equivalent powers when taken in larger groups, so that three or more make them speedier.
8. I did completely forget they had their own table they were supposed to roll on. I can take a look at it.
9. I actually thought Ghaz had Fearless. It will be added. And I can tackle the supplement later as I forgot that actually existed, otherwise I'd have done their relics and stuff too.

 koooaei wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

1. Giving the Big Choppa AP3 makes it the equivalent of a Relic Blade, which is usually priced at 15-25 points.AP4 is just easier in order to keep the current price tag. Maybe AP3 at 15 points?

Not saying it shouldn't cost more. Might as well be relic blades equivalent. Are they used often? Well, they would be if they could be used as either s+1 ap3 or s+1 ap2 unwieldy or something. But that's the problem with relic blades and no real need for them in sm codex. Orks might really benefit from a wider variety of cc weapons than just a claw.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

2. It really isn't because Kommandos are Ork Boy stats once they reach combat. Also remember that the Rending only happens in 15+. It's good but you'd have to actually pay for it.

I still think it'd be an op squad. They'd be more reliable and way tougher gsc for comparable amount of points.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

3. Shoota Boys were never going to gain benefits. Even a free exchange for the Shoota is something you won't do because they're shooting at BS2. It's false hope for all intents and purposes.

There SHOULD be shoota boyz. It's fluff and it should be required on the tabletop. It's a wrong decision to just disregard them.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

4. I agree. I will bump Gretchen to 2 points each. They're definitely nowhere near deserving of S3 T3. They're not even close to looking as tough as a human.

Well, grots used to be s3 t3. And they are were s3 t3 in FB. Snotlings were s2 t2. 40k grots got a nerf for no good reason. I think it's good either way. Be it s2 t2 for 2ppm or s3 t3 for 3ppm.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

5. It's S5 AP4 Ignores Cover. Not everyone needs a Heldrake equivalent but I would be willing to bump some of the AV up.

It is quite underwhelming. Cause it can't really reach everything. You got to fly above the target to be able to bomb it. Than the blast has 2/3 chance to scatter d6. And you can't even bomb if you jink or are forced to snapshoot as a result of the damage table. As is, it really has no place. Either make it useful by increasing it's killiness by a large margin or make it twice as cheap. Cause currently this plane is one of the worst planes of the tabletop. The concept is cool but it doesn't work.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

6. That's the fault of the wraithKnight, which you and I already knows needs a super increase in points. Try and look at the internal balance of the codices I've tackled, not outside ones.

Still av14 isn't fixing anything. It's a slow, expensive walker that is afraid of the damage table and lacks damage itself. It's just not frightening. Mages, melta, strong mellee - all counter and outmaneuvre it. It can't deal with tarpits and doesn't contribute anything for half the game if you're playing offensive (and you are - you're an ork after all).

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

7. I can give the Kans and Dreads equivalent powers when taken in larger groups, so that three or more make them speedier.
8. I did completely forget they had their own table they were supposed to roll on. I can take a look at it.
9. I actually thought Ghaz had Fearless. It will be added. And I can tackle the supplement later as I forgot that actually existed, otherwise I'd have done their relics and stuff too.

Will be eagerly waiting.

All ork walkers should have 'ere we go. And meks, wierdboyz, painboyz should have their equivalent of WAAAGH! For example, mek could grant all vehicles iwnd if he's a warlord or +1 to ramshakkle or something like this. Wierdboy could grant adamantium will or could be more deadly himself. Painboy could make him and his squad more durable or more crazy with granting something like Hatred or rampage for a turn or even the whole game - it's not a big stretch for loosing WAAAGH. Currently, only warbosses buff the army and are a prime choice for being a warlord. And it's right but there should be variation for more rare armies led by non-warbosses. Like dread mobs or crazy boyz.

 koooaei wrote:
In general, plazma pistols for 5 ppm is underpriced. 10 is the right cost for them - like it used to be for ig in earlier editions.
Also, i think you should buff blastmasters. They should be deadlier for a limited unique weapon for 25 pts.

Also, do spawns really need to be buffed with s6? They're allready one of the best units in the codex.

And CSM squad champions could benefit from the eldar exarch approach. Like +1 to ws/bs/wound. I know, it could cause some issues like: why do chosen that stick to csm have 2 wounds and regular chosen have 1 but there is a fix to that. They all should have 2 wounds and +1 ws/bs. Yes, all the chosen and termies. For a price increase ofc. But that would be so characterful. They haven't sold their soul for nothing. And it wouldn't be too bad cause chosen and termies are allready quite meh. But a beefier terminator that costs like 45-50 pts or a 22-25 pts chosen could be neat.

>I already think Relic Blades are appropriately priced though (You choose between S6 AP3 I5 or S8 AP2 I1, though most people will want the ID of T4 models more than they care about the AP2)

Where's that coming from? iirc relic blades are s+2 ap3 2-handed. And that's it. There's no power fist part for them. And there sure shouldn't be. They should be power axes at best. Cause they allready are cheaper than fists and with the option of being either ap3 at ini or ap2 at i1 they're quite versatile. Power swords in general could be great if they could either be ap3 or ap2 at i1 - probably with 1 less attack or something. This way you get a weaker but more versatile weapon.

 koooaei wrote:
Well, to be honest, i didn't mean ALL sarges - just chaos ones. But it could be ok, i guess.

 koooaei wrote:
This +1 W is mostly for armies where Tougher characters make sense. Like orks or csm. Orks allready have nobz with +1 w and +1s. I think csm could easilly get away with +1w and +1ws/bs for champs. Maybe for an increased point cost - like 15 pts instead of the usual 10. Cause currently eldar have 0 reason to not take a character - they grant so many bonuses for so cheap. Eldar should have it at 20 pts, really.