https://warhammer40000.gw-hub.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2017/04/New-Edition-of-40K-FAQ.pdf

It'll be interesting to see what they do, AOSesque? War machine style? Exciting! No more silly decurions hopefully everthing will be balanced out

No more silly decurions hopefully

lol...

Silly you have you looked at AoS recently ; )
All is decurions over there. The FAQ told us that all codexes where invalidated not that they aren't releasing AoS syle groups of units that get free bonuses but are totally not formations or decurions.

Okay. This makes me feel 30% better.

On the positive side we might just end up with playable gorkanauts

From the new FAQ:
Q:Is my army still valid?
A:Yes, it certainly is! You’ll still be able to use your army in the new edition of Warhammer 40,000.
All current armies will be supported with new rules

Q:Can I still use all my models?
A:Yes. Every Warhammer 40,000 miniature we sell today will be usable in the new edition of
Warhammer 40,000. What’s more, they’ll be supported with new rules, which will be available
from the get go in handy, low-cost books.

So this means new rules for my struggling tyranids.

 oldzoggy wrote:

No more silly decurions hopefully

lol...

Silly you have you looked at AoS recently ; )
All is decurions over there. The FAQ told us that all codexes where invalidated not that they aren't releasing AoS syle groups of units that get free bonuses but are totally not formations or decurions.

They're not free. A decurion can be several hundred points in just formation costs.

Do you have anything else you don't know anything about you'd like to lecture on?

Yeah, no surprise there.

Clean slate is what this game needs, if someone wants to keep their currently unfathomably unbalanced codices and their content, you're welcome to keep playing 7th.

Everything they promise is exactly what people have wanted.

The thing is that not all of us want the same. Just look at all the what do you want topics. Some of us want AoSisation others like it to be 5th etc. pretty sure that a lot of wishes are mutually exclusive, and to make it worse a lot of players are horrible at actually expressing their wishes and tend to use memes that are open to interpretation..

The most stunning example might be the pis poor but popular phrase "The rules are too bloated" . We tried to have multiple discussions here on this forum but most of us disagreed on what it actually meant even those who like to use it regularly could not all agree on what it ment. And there where those who changed their opinion the moment complex additional rules where added to the game that buffed their own army..

I hate this dilemma

Ok, YES its getting rid of decurions (Despite the fact that GW said they would "Reward Themed Armies" I.E Decurions)
But NO its a Slap in the face to anyone who bought books

 oldzoggy wrote:
The thing is that not all of us want the same. Just look at all the what do you want topics. Some of us want AoSisation others like it to be 5th etc. pretty sure that a lot of wishes are mutually exclusive, and to make it worse a lot of players are horrible at actually expressing their wishes and tend to use memes that are open to interpretation..

Someone always being unhappy is no news. I guess everyone who has been around more than one edition can already see the "world is ending" threads incoming from miles away when new edition hits. Last time it was summoning, people thought it broke the game right at the start. Turns out it didn't even touch the subject of "most broken thing out there" - atleast if you ask people who have actual experience in the competitive scene.

Let's say they are atleast touching on subjects people have complained about, if not going for things people have wanted, then. Not all complaints are to be taken into account. I've seen people who claim Roboute Guilliman is the most broken thing in the game. Those people are best ignored afaic.

Basically, if you bought the books they've been releasing at an infernal rate, you're thoroughly screwed.

I personally dread that logic of free core rules and expansions, and if they latest models are still valid, it's not sure they won't go on fouling the lore up...

However if they did make a complete rebuilding of the rules, maybe there's some hope to see something overall balanced and interesting, unfortunately as oldzoggy highlighted, they claim to have taken "what people wanted" in account, which means better balance, but then it sounds like each person had it's own opinion and few actually seem to agree when it comes to what would be needed specificaly... So that even this is to be thought about with caution.

But Im truly convinced that the most important, besides the rules, is their general behavor and marketting policy. They definitly have to improve something about this...

I hope "low cost books" means printed versions. I don't like the ebooks i prefer print. I started playing 40k in 2000 with 3rd edition. And i still have all the codices and rulebooks. i like the fact that i can grab them from my bookshelf once in awhile sit in my chair or lay in bed and read in them.

 Runic wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
The thing is that not all of us want the same. Just look at all the what do you want topics. Some of us want AoSisation others like it to be 5th etc. pretty sure that a lot of wishes are mutually exclusive, and to make it worse a lot of players are horrible at actually expressing their wishes and tend to use memes that are open to interpretation..

Someone always being unhappy is no news. .

Jup this is the usual reaction to an edition change. No one likes all the changes of a 6th to 7th or a 5th to 6th edition change.
However if they actually listened to some of us they might just replace the game with something else entirely since some players do not want changes to the game they want to play an other game entirely.

 SpinCycleDreadnought wrote:
An AOS-style reboot of the rules (not the setting), something that encourages smaller games. Warscrol styled Dataslates, with compilation books.


I'd yell HERESY at myself.

And guess what not all of us want to just go and play an other game some of us just want to play 40k with some fixes.

nordsturmking wrote:
From the new FAQ:
Q:Is my army still valid?
A:Yes, it certainly is! You’ll still be able to use your army in the new edition of Warhammer 40,000.
All current armies will be supported with new rules

Q:Can I still use all my models?
A:Yes. Every Warhammer 40,000 miniature we sell today will be usable in the new edition of
Warhammer 40,000. What’s more, they’ll be supported with new rules, which will be available
from the get go in handy, low-cost books.

So this means new rules for my struggling tyranids.

I dunno this reminds me of AoS.

"Oh you can still use all your old armies but now we're renaming them and chopping them up. Also we're combining all the sides into smaller factions. Also they're mostly invalid and we're making brand new armies that are bastardized versions of your previous armies or are outright ignoring your army. Have fun sucker!"

That was the firs thought that came to mind heh. Hope that won't be the case though.

 commander dante wrote:
I hate this dilemma

Ok, YES its getting rid of decurions (Despite the fact that GW said they would "Reward Themed Armies" I.E Decurions)
But NO its a Slap in the face to anyone who bought books

Games evolve, rules become obsolete, things change etc etc. It's not a slap in anyones face, it's progress.

Jep I sure hope they don't go for the option

Here is a warscroll for each unit, they can only buy more dudes no equipment or other options, 90% of your models are now web only and will never get an update so you can all have fun AoS style.

Martel732 wrote:
Okay. This makes me feel 30% better.

I was opposed to a hard reboot from the beginning, but if they are at least releasing "low-cost" army books, I too feel better about this.
It's just a shame that I have over $600 worth of army books that are now worthless.

All i'm saying is at the end of the day GW is GW and they're not known for being good to their customers. I thought new guy was cool till Gathering storm made things more imbalanced. I mean he's no Kirby (total jerk that one) and he's more sane but i don't expect GW not to screw us over somewhat. They're better but not by enough.

At least Chaos gets new stuff even if it takes like 5 books. Dark eldar actually have a chance of getting pieced out, written off or shoved into eldar (though we don't want that last one). I mean commoragh was overrun by daemons and then turned into mostly a mandrake haven. I don't think Gathering Storm has screwed a faction harder than dark eldar. We were basically split up 3 times.

I'd say anyone who wasn't expecting their old codices to get invalidated were kidding themselves. It's not like this didn't happen with the other editions of the game, they were just getting replaced by another codex!

For my part, I'm a filthy nerd, and I love my collection of old gaming books (not just from GW). I have rulebooks from games that don't even exist anymore, never got me up in arms that they went out of being legal for play. That's just the way games go, new editions come out, old rules get thrown away. Some of them are good reads for inspiration; I'll never not love the art style of the 3rd Edition 40k rulebook...

For what it's worth, I'm worried about the placeholder lists too. I wasn't impressed with what happened on the AoS side. Maybe they've learned their lesson?

Just saying back when AoS was only a couple weeks before it came out i thought anybody would be stupid and insane to think everything was going to crap. It was a 28 year franchise and we just got the super popular End Times. Then AoS came out and it was so bare bones and so amateurishly done it was almost like an April Fools joke except it wasn't. It was bad. I haven't seen a worse handled release for any game. If video game developers pulled that they'd be crucified or burned at a cross and would realistically get death threats constantly. Video game players have no idea how privileged they are in comparison.

 oldzoggy wrote:
Jep I sure hope they don't go for the option

Here is a warscroll for each unit, they can only buy more dudes no equipment or other options, 90% of your models are now web only and will never get an update so you can all have fun AoS style.

The new TSons units in particular make me wary of this happening here too. We're only a stepping stone away from loosing our armoury...again.

 Galef wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Okay. This makes me feel 30% better.

I was opposed to a hard reboot from the beginning, but if they are at least releasing "low-cost" army books, I too feel better about this.
It's just a shame that I have over $600 worth of army books that are now worthless.

Another reason i collect and play only ba and iks.

 Runic wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
The thing is that not all of us want the same. Just look at all the what do you want topics. Some of us want AoSisation others like it to be 5th etc. pretty sure that a lot of wishes are mutually exclusive, and to make it worse a lot of players are horrible at actually expressing their wishes and tend to use memes that are open to interpretation..

Someone always being unhappy is no news. I guess everyone who has been around more than one edition can already see the "world is ending" threads incoming from miles away when new edition hits. Last time it was summoning, people thought it broke the game right at the start. Turns out it didn't even touch the subject of "most broken thing out there" - atleast if you ask people who have actual experience in the competitive scene.

I'm not sure anything ever touched that subject, from the standpoint of people with actual experience in the competitive scene...

It's only ever the casuals who are whining about builds which were OP 6 months ago and aren't even played competitively anymore.

 commander dante wrote:
I hate this dilemma

Ok, YES its getting rid of decurions (Despite the fact that GW said they would "Reward Themed Armies" I.E Decurions)
But NO its a Slap in the face to anyone who bought books

So, basically, you're saying that any time there's been an edition change over the last 25 years, it's a 'slap in the face' to people who have purchased any books.

We see this every time an edition change looms closer, and it's without a doubt the most ridiculous line of gak ever. The people purchasing the books, did so knowing full well that at -any- point in the future, they would be invalidated. Editions change, rules get updates, and old rules become obsolete. Welcome to wargaming. This is nothing new, yet every time it happens, people loose their about the books they purchased are suddenly obsolete and they have to buy new ones. Some even go so far as to say they're owed new books because they purchased previous books.

People forget that there is also fluff, artwork, and other entertainment value attached to most of these books, outside of the rules contained in them.

To the point, getting rid of seperate codecies and having all the rules for -every- army contained in a single place is a great thing. This makes it easier for the devs to update the entire ruleset in one go, and eliminates the problem we currently have of different writers helming seperate books, causing massive power imbalances.

I may be in the minority here, but for the first time in almost 2 decades, I am excited about a new edition.

 Galef wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Okay. This makes me feel 30% better.

I was opposed to a hard reboot from the beginning, but if they are at least releasing "low-cost" army books, I too feel better about this.
It's just a shame that I have over $600 worth of army books that are now worthless.

They were going to be worthless eventually.
I wonder how my IA-11 works with all this... When will Doom of Mymeara get an update - again ?

 Jambles wrote:
I'd say anyone who wasn't expecting their old codices to get invalidated were kidding themselves.

This.

I dunno, a thought such as "surely my books will remain to be valid for 2 editions" doesn't even occur to me. It's just unrealistic.

 Roknar wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
Jep I sure hope they don't go for the option

Here is a warscroll for each unit, they can only buy more dudes no equipment or other options, 90% of your models are now web only and will never get an update so you can all have fun AoS style.

The new TSons units in particular make me wary of this happening here too. We're only a stepping stone away from loosing our armoury...again.

Alternatively, the entire armoury is on the datasheet instead of searching through the book for a reference.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Roknar wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
Jep I sure hope they don't go for the option

Here is a warscroll for each unit, they can only buy more dudes no equipment or other options, 90% of your models are now web only and will never get an update so you can all have fun AoS style.

The new TSons units in particular make me wary of this happening here too. We're only a stepping stone away from loosing our armoury...again.

Alternatively, the entire armoury is on the datasheet instead of searching through the book for a reference.

That would work too. Even allows for adjusting points, but I don't see that happening lol.

 Vryce wrote:

So, basically, you're saying that any time there's been an edition change over the last 25 years, it's a 'slap in the face' to people who have purchased any books.

Nope my ork 4th edition book has been valid in 5th and 6th same goes for many other armies. It isn't that unusual for codexes to survive editions.
Not sure if it is a good thing but it sure isn't unusual

I think the only codex that ever had that kind of longevity was the 3rd edition Dark Eldar codex.

And that was because GW forgot it existed for a decade.

Losing all the codexes is a hard pill to swallow. But from the state of the rules as they are now, this is the only way to actually have a chance at rebalancing the rules; a total overhaul.

The only thing I'm worried about is if GW will try to promote the "Casual" format. I'm hoping "Matched Play" remains the premier pickup game format, while Casual remains for at home or when you're too drunk off your ass to care (which is sort of what happens already, just not officially).

In the meantime, for all you folks who like the miniatures over the actual rules, keep an eye out on your local ads! There's probably going to be many people who will start selling off their armies en-masse.

 Jambles wrote:
I'd say anyone who wasn't expecting their old codices to get invalidated were kidding themselves. It's not like this didn't happen with the other editions of the game, they were just getting replaced by another codex!

For my part, I'm a filthy nerd, and I love my collection of old gaming books (not just from GW). I have rulebooks from games that don't even exist anymore, never got me up in arms that they went out of being legal for play. That's just the way games go, new editions come out, old rules get thrown away. Some of them are good reads for inspiration; I'll never not love the art style of the 3rd Edition 40k rulebook...

For what it's worth, I'm worried about the placeholder lists too. I wasn't impressed with what happened on the AoS side. Maybe they've learned their lesson?

As ben affleck would say it: I agree.

If you look at DnD for example same thing a new edition comes out an all the old stuff is not compatible.You can still play the old editons. But the live span of the 40k editions became shorter and shorter. So if they release the core rules for free they might aswell update them once a year und bring a little balance to the game.

I just bought a couple codexes two weeks ago too. ):

I dunno what this open play thing is supposed to be but it seems mightily pointless to me. Unbound still has points and nobody cares about it. This sounds like it wouldn't have points like age of sigmar did, which my group tired not having played a single game of fantasy before and found it to be impossible. I really really REALLY don't see the appeal other than for explaining how the rules work to a new player, but can't really be considered a game format, nor does it require one.

Maybe we will see Orc and Tyranid players again at the table!

nordsturmking wrote:
I hope "low cost books" means printed versions. I don't like the ebooks i prefer print. I started playing 40k in 2000 with 3rd edition. And i still have all the codices and rulebooks. i like the fact that i can grab them from my bookshelf once in awhile sit in my chair or lay in bed and read in them.

So true...

Unfortunatly in my opinion low cost would either imply pdf or booklets

Also the point with codices bieng invalided isn't in the mere fact (quite logical speaking of which) because it's entirely normal when jumping onto another edition. On the other hand, the number of books and the quite little time they remained valid makes them an atrocious waste. Just think about new armies as Skitarii for example: the codex lasted a few month then!

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:

nordsturmking wrote:
I hope "low cost books" means printed versions. I don't like the ebooks i prefer print. I started playing 40k in 2000 with 3rd edition. And i still have all the codices and rulebooks. i like the fact that i can grab them from my bookshelf once in awhile sit in my chair or lay in bed and read in them.

So true...

Unfortunatly in my opinion low cost would either imply pdf or booklets

Also the point with codices bieng invalided isn't in the mere fact (quite logical speaking of which) because it's entirely normal when jumping onto another edition. On the other hand, the number of books and the quite little time they remained valid makes them an atrocious waste. Just think about new armies as Skitarii for example: the codex lasted a few month then!

Yep or the end times stuff. The last book lasted 3 month.

I would be ok with

PDF rules downloadable at a price for those who enjoy digital
.
And

Xenology like faction books that had no rules but just fluff and came with a the most resent set of pre printed heavy paper datasheets like the ones they gave stores for shadow wars.

If they don't invalidate the codexes at this point. They are going to have a serious issue.

Assuming the box set is Crimson Fists (the truescale marine hinted at) vs Death Guard (the faction soon to be released).

This means the next two codexes would be Space Marine and Chaos/Death guard.

Logically, from there you would release Eldar and One other Xenos faction likely Tau or Orcs.

This means in a year from now, the Tyranid players might see a new codex. Which in the meantime they would be playing with a 3 edition old codex.

By invalidating all codexes and putting out small warscroll style pdfs at the start. They can spend their time building out for all current factions. Then as their modelers do groups like World Eaters and Emperor's Children. They can release a book for each of those and warscrolls online.

This means book wise they can concentrate on campaign play and story. Something that the Gathering storm books really did well for adding to the Universe.

Although it sucks that my codexes that I bought recently are going to be useless in the new edition, I am glad to see a format in which they can update the game quickly and not have to wait 2 years for an errata or FAQ to come out. It should be easy enough to just update a file and download it.

Jep having annual fixesto your armies balance is a good thing : )

 Vache Glace wrote:
https://warhammer40000.gw-hub.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2017/04/New-Edition-of-40K-FAQ.pdf

It'll be interesting to see what they do, AOSesque? War machine style? Exciting! No more silly decurions hopefully everthing will be balanced out

This is my *hope*. Now, I don't expect anything, but 7E has been a giant dumpster fire of bloat in every way, and absolutely awful game design. There's nothing of value to be salvaged there.

While I'm hesitant about many changes that are being discussed, I'm fairly happy about none of the books carrying over, it gives the *opportunity* for the fresh start 40k really needs.

Whether GW will get stuff mostly right this time is anyone's guess, I would expect not given their past performance, but the dumping of the 7E codex books is a good start to me.

Plus.. think about it. Would you rather have models or books? Your money is a finite amount.

I do find it a bit shady to release these gathering storm campaign books and then immediately invalidate the rulesets and formations they just released.

Or maybe this isn't as big of a reboot as we think.

 Marmatag wrote:
I do find it a bit shady to release these gathering storm campaign books and then immediately invalidate the rulesets and formations they just released.

Or maybe this isn't as big of a reboot as we think.

I bought them for the fluff mostly

None of the End Times books had rules that translated across - models - very much so but not rules.

 Marmatag wrote:
I do find it a bit shady to release these gathering storm campaign books and then immediately invalidate the rulesets and formations they just released.

That's pretty standard GW. They did the exact same thing with Age of Sigmar and the "End Times" stuff, Sisters got their 2E codex just a few months before 3E's reboot, etc.

Im excited anyways, gave up bothering with codicies some time back and acquired them on the cheap or picked up the rules from battlescribe / forums.
I do miss the fluff but this new edition looks exciting and GW seem to be trying to listen and enact player feedback.

 Roknar wrote:
I dunno what this open play thing is supposed to be but it seems mightily pointless to me. Unbound still has points and nobody cares about it. This sounds like it wouldn't have points like age of sigmar did, which my group tired not having played a single game of fantasy before and found it to be impossible. I really really REALLY don't see the appeal other than for explaining how the rules work to a new player, but can't really be considered a game format, nor does it require one.

Open Play is for:

New players learning the game.
New or old players who are starting an army but don't have enough models to field a credible force yet.
Multi-player battles- the General's Handbook has several different formats for multiplayer games.
Players who don't care about all the overhead of points systems or forging a narrative (they exist), or who want to make wacky house scenarios.
Testing a new unit or practicing rules interactions.

It's different from Unbound because Unbound still carried the expectations of "matched" play- it was like bringing a dodgeball to a baseball game. Open Play is its own thing; whether it's a thing for you or your group is another story.

Another way to look at it is that it's the "just the rules" game format. All the others have some amount of game setup overhead; they've just made that part modular rather than integral.

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:

nordsturmking wrote:
I hope "low cost books" means printed versions. I don't like the ebooks i prefer print. I started playing 40k in 2000 with 3rd edition. And i still have all the codices and rulebooks. i like the fact that i can grab them from my bookshelf once in awhile sit in my chair or lay in bed and read in them.

So true...

Unfortunatly in my opinion low cost would either imply pdf or booklets

Also the point with codices bieng invalided isn't in the mere fact (quite logical speaking of which) because it's entirely normal when jumping onto another edition. On the other hand, the number of books and the quite little time they remained valid makes them an atrocious waste. Just think about new armies as Skitarii for example: the codex lasted a few month then!

Well maybe they are going to go with softcover books? Look at the generals handbook that's like $30 the battletomes are more expensive but you don't really need them with the free rules (there's some exclusive stuff but not a big deal)

This is good for me because I just busted out my old Tau from 6th Ed and now I want to play again so free rules would be wicked! Especially for people who don't play often it's better to have free rules then buying a codex...Playing once a month or so and then boom you have to drop $60-70 on a new codex...Tough beans

One thing i *hope* is that they dont mess up where characters are supposed to be in "Warscrolls"
E.G Nagash, you would EXPECT him to be in the Tomb Kings Warscroll, as he basically is one. But NOPE he is in the Vampire Counts Warscroll

I'm a bit shocked that anyone is surprised by this. I don't play current 40K but rumours have abounded (from reasonable sources) for over a year or more about a new edition - and that the new edition would likely be a larger change than previous.

Sure there was a lot of argument over how AoS it would become, but the writing has been on the wall for a loooong time. With such a re-boot needed, I think invalidating current books was an absolute likelihood.

I thought perhaps 8th might not be so early in 2017 as people had predicted, but I'm a little amazed people were buying codices/new books (short of wanting them for fluff etc.) over the past six months. Obviously it's in GW's interest to do that - so I don't fault them. This just really shouldn't shock anyone.

I'm torn because I'd like to have a 40K I could get back into, but 7th was fething terrible...and yet AoS has numerous rules features which really bug the hell out of me. Looks like I'll probably continue to pal around with an older edition. I can't see 8th being any worse than 7th. That's nigh impossible.

 Elbows wrote:
I'm a bit shocked that anyone is surprised by this. I don't play current 40K but rumours have abounded (from reasonable sources) for over a year or more about a new edition - and that the new edition would likely be a larger change than previous.

Sure there was a lot of argument over how AoS it would become, but the writing has been on the wall for a loooong time. With such a re-boot needed, I think invalidating current books was an absolute likelihood.

I thought perhaps 8th might not be so early in 2017 as people had predicted, but I'm a little amazed people were buying codices/new books (short of wanting them for fluff etc.) over the past six months. Obviously it's in GW's interest to do that - so I don't fault them. This just really shouldn't shock anyone.

I'm torn because I'd like to have a 40K I could get back into, but 7th was fething terrible...and yet AoS has numerous rules features which really bug the hell out of me. Looks like I'll probably continue to pal around with an older edition. I can't see 8th being any worse than 7th. That's nigh impossible.

It's always possible , though at least with a clean codex reboot the possibility for something *better* is much higher.

I'm glad they will broaden their focus and create rules for narrative, competitive and drunken free for all. Hopefully they are committed to catering to all three.

My army is orks. My codex was already invalidated from the release of Decurions. I can only pray they give orks some tlc.

I think this might have a better reception than AoS because when that was released, they only gave us the Drunken Free For All and only barely hinted at the other styles.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I think this might have a better reception than AoS because when that was released, they only gave us the Drunken Free For All and only barely hinted at the other styles.

Aye, the AoS launch was handled very poorly in a multitude of ways, and was a total bust for quite some time. Not sure what they were thinking with that. GW appears to be thinking a bit harder about this one.

I'm willing to bet 75% of the bad stigma that stuck around AoS would not have been there had they announced the General's Handbook and Matched Play right from the getgo, rather than saying "there will be something more advanced down the road" and then handed us that ridiculous collection of warscrolls that made us act snooty or get drunk for an in-game bonus.

Almost certainly. I really do not understand what they were thinking with that launch. An empty sandbox game with no coherency and new universe with almost as little coherency was not a winning recipe.

nordsturmking wrote:

Q:Can I still use all my models?
A:Yes. Every Warhammer 40,000 miniature we sell today will be usable in the new edition of
Warhammer 40,000. What’s more, they’ll be supported with new rules, which will be available
from the get go in handy, low-cost books.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 Vaktathi wrote:
Almost certainly. I really do not understand what they were thinking with that launch. An empty sandbox game with no coherency and new universe with almost as little coherency was not a winning recipe.

Like you said, they really seemed to have learned from that lesson and this one has had a lot more effort put into it. Now let's just hope it's going to pay off.

If there would be a moment to measure Rountree's skills as the new CEO, I would say this would be the make or break moment. If 8th edition is good, he will probably go down in history as the CEO who saved 40k. If not, then "Kirby 2.0" would be a rather appropriate moniker.

 Vache Glace wrote:
https://warhammer40000.gw-hub.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2017/04/New-Edition-of-40K-FAQ.pdf

It'll be interesting to see what they do, AOSesque? War machine style? Exciting! No more silly decurions hopefully everthing will be balanced out

Just because the current codexs are being done away with does not mean balance or formations are getting rid of. In fact, just the opposite, GW has said they plan to reward 'themed' armies, that means more specialized formations with rules that create 'unbalance'. The current rule set is not the problem, yes it could use some refining, the problem is armies that can ignore rules or get ridiculous bonuses for free, that creates imbalance.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Almost certainly. I really do not understand what they were thinking with that launch. An empty sandbox game with no coherency and new universe with almost as little coherency was not a winning recipe.

Like you said, they really seemed to have learned from that lesson and this one has had a lot more effort put into it. Now let's just hope it's going to pay off.

If there would be a moment to measure Rountree's skills as the new CEO, I would say this would be the make or break moment. If 8th edition is good, he will probably go down in history as the CEO who saved 40k. If not, then "Kirby 2.0" would be a rather appropriate moniker.

He can't be Kirby 2.0. Everything is just so much better than it used to be.

I'm eagerly awaiting this, mostly because cost will be minimal. Had I needed to buy anything from scratch I'd be pretty pissed.

Just as I start a Daemonkin army, hope they do a Blades of Khorne style release to mix CSM and Khorne daemons still. No longer a Chaos subfaction so a bit worrying.

 Formerly Wu wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
I dunno what this open play thing is supposed to be but it seems mightily pointless to me. Unbound still has points and nobody cares about it. This sounds like it wouldn't have points like age of sigmar did, which my group tired not having played a single game of fantasy before and found it to be impossible. I really really REALLY don't see the appeal other than for explaining how the rules work to a new player, but can't really be considered a game format, nor does it require one.

Open Play is for:

New players learning the game.
New or old players who are starting an army but don't have enough models to field a credible force yet.
Multi-player battles- the General's Handbook has several different formats for multiplayer games.
Players who don't care about all the overhead of points systems or forging a narrative (they exist), or who want to make wacky house scenarios.
Testing a new unit or practicing rules interactions.

It's different from Unbound because Unbound still carried the expectations of "matched" play- it was like bringing a dodgeball to a baseball game. Open Play is its own thing; whether it's a thing for you or your group is another story.

Another way to look at it is that it's the "just the rules" game format. All the others have some amount of game setup overhead; they've just made that part modular rather than integral.

Thanks. I'll reserve judgement until we have it in hands, but I still don't see the point in making this a format. It's basically a do-whatever-you-want sandbox, how different can that possibly be from literally doing whatever you want.
I suppose we'll find out soon.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Loopstah wrote:
Just as I start a Daemonkin army, hope they do a Blades of Khorne style release to mix CSM and Khorne daemons still. No longer a Chaos subfaction so a bit worrying.

I don't play age of sigmar, nor do I care about it, but if I'm not mistaken AoS has similar mechanics.
It depends on how far they're willing to AoS this, but I could see csm and daemons mixing smoothly again. I'd even take the removal of KDK as a good sign for that.
All KDK really added was the blood tithes system, which was awesome, but apart from blood thirster variations there wasn't a single new unit.
If they rework that into a psychic phase equivalent for khorne units, we get everything KDK had, but with WE.

Super-glad the current codices are being put down. Shows that they have the awareness that any new edition they try to make with the old codices hanging around their necks is going to be like trying to build on sand, which gives me hope for the future. And I say this while owning 6 codices plus all related supplements for them.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
He can't be Kirby 2.0. Everything is just so much better than it used to be.

I'm eagerly awaiting this, mostly because cost will be minimal. Had I needed to buy anything from scratch I'd be pretty pissed.

Personally I think the moment any excuse Kirby had to prop up his reputation went down the drain the moment AoS started production (not just release, but at conception). That trainwreck singlehandedly eclipsed all of Kirby's other questionable tactics, like his previous annual price hikes, his complete disregard for tournament play, how new units were buffed solely to sell kits, etc.

Kirby, at the very least, was working with the less popular of the two franchises, and the one that was arguably going down the toilet already. Rountree is basically wagering the future of GW on this one (more or less, while I doubt the failure of 8th will destroy GW overnight, it might signal a slow downfall if it does fail) so if this does get cocked up to high heaven, it would pretty much erase all of the good will he's built up for me so far.

Especially since much (not all, but much of it) of the things that generated said good will is being erased with this edition too, it just puts more emphasis for this to not fail. However Rountree is not going into it blind and it's clear he and his team is taking every effort to make sure this succeeds. Let's just hope Tzeentch ain't double dipping into our chips now.

Ravingbantha wrote:
GW has said they plan to reward 'themed' armies, that means more specialized formations with rules that create 'unbalance'.

No offense, but what makes you think you're right about that? Nobody knows at this point.

Martel732 wrote:

 Galef wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Okay. This makes me feel 30% better.

I was opposed to a hard reboot from the beginning, but if they are at least releasing "low-cost" army books, I too feel better about this.
It's just a shame that I have over $600 worth of army books that are now worthless.

Another reason i collect and play only ba and iks.

For me this makes me feel 0% better. When AoS came out the rules were joke rules, the world was destroyed, the lore was destroyed, it was a slap to Oldhammer players and the big gift was 40k players got a secondary game to which most of them never even play at my store. Blood bowl is probably more popular than AoS at the local GW. That's not a good thing.

It sounds exactly like AoS which is a horrible thing. I played Fantasy and i know nothing they said sounds any different than the release of AoS.

 Roknar wrote:

 Formerly Wu wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
I dunno what this open play thing is supposed to be but it seems mightily pointless to me. Unbound still has points and nobody cares about it. This sounds like it wouldn't have points like age of sigmar did, which my group tired not having played a single game of fantasy before and found it to be impossible. I really really REALLY don't see the appeal other than for explaining how the rules work to a new player, but can't really be considered a game format, nor does it require one.

Open Play is for:

New players learning the game.
New or old players who are starting an army but don't have enough models to field a credible force yet.
Multi-player battles- the General's Handbook has several different formats for multiplayer games.
Players who don't care about all the overhead of points systems or forging a narrative (they exist), or who want to make wacky house scenarios.
Testing a new unit or practicing rules interactions.

It's different from Unbound because Unbound still carried the expectations of "matched" play- it was like bringing a dodgeball to a baseball game. Open Play is its own thing; whether it's a thing for you or your group is another story.

Another way to look at it is that it's the "just the rules" game format. All the others have some amount of game setup overhead; they've just made that part modular rather than integral.

Thanks. I'll reserve judgement until we have it in hands, but I still don't see the point in making this a format. It's basically a do-whatever-you-want sandbox, how different can that possibly be from literally doing whatever you want.
I suppose we'll find out soon.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Loopstah wrote:
Just as I start a Daemonkin army, hope they do a Blades of Khorne style release to mix CSM and Khorne daemons still. No longer a Chaos subfaction so a bit worrying.

I don't play age of sigmar, nor do I care about it, but if I'm not mistaken AoS has similar mechanics.
It depends on how far they're willing to AoS this, but I could see csm and daemons mixing smoothly again. I'd even take the removal of KDK as a good sign for that.
All KDK really added was the blood tithes system, which was awesome, but apart from blood thirster variations there wasn't a single new unit.
If they rework that into a psychic phase equivalent for khorne units, we get everything KDK had, but with WE.

I played Warhammer Fantasy and the game ended up worse than i'd ever feared it could in AoS and thought people were crazy thinking it'd be as bad as they said and it was worse than that.

Just take this from experience. Have a back-up plan if things hit the crapper. Go to X-wing or something. Don't buy any gathering storm models as it'll be a slap in the face that you paid hundreds just to be competitive only to have all the rules change and become a game you disliked. I still have unfinished stormfiends and a mostly broken vermin lord from when GW switched to AoS. All my in progress Fantasy models remain unbuilt and never will be. Just putting it this way if you're thinking about buying more GW models. DON'T. Wait and see and don't have high hopes so that maybe you'll feel better when GW possibly screws over all of us.

A few things:
I'm glad they are getting rid of codices, after all, this is the time of year you would have to buy a whole new set of all the books, this'll make it far cheaper.
Not sure what they'll do in its place, but I'm hopeful.

The three new game modes are basically an official recognition of what already there, and not anything new. But the first one does slightly worry me (though if it does do what I think, then no one will play it), and that is that when they say bring the models you want, do they mean there won't be a set point value? The other two are already there and fine.

I do believe a new fresh redoing of everything would be quite nice, as long as they follow the core parts of 40k. First and foremost the Grimdark. Second the lack of clearly defined good guys. Third the extreme amount of fluff. Finally, the over the top massive battles, while remains pretty grounded (I.E. the Guard). (Not done in any particular order)

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:

nordsturmking wrote:
I hope "low cost books" means printed versions. I don't like the ebooks i prefer print. I started playing 40k in 2000 with 3rd edition. And i still have all the codices and rulebooks. i like the fact that i can grab them from my bookshelf once in awhile sit in my chair or lay in bed and read in them.

So true...

Unfortunatly in my opinion low cost would either imply pdf or booklets

Also the point with codices bieng invalided isn't in the mere fact (quite logical speaking of which) because it's entirely normal when jumping onto another edition. On the other hand, the number of books and the quite little time they remained valid makes them an atrocious waste. Just think about new armies as Skitarii for example: the codex lasted a few month then!

Skitarii was published in at least early 2016/late 2015. It "lasted" more than a few months; same with Cult Mechanicus.

In any regards, look at the "Grand Alliance" books for AoS.

They're low cost books(I think Grand Alliance: Order, which is the size of the bigger codices for 40k, was something like $35 and contains basically everything High Elf, Dark Elf, Wood Elf, Empire, Dwarf, Lizardmen, Sylvaneth and Stormcast Eternal that was out at the time) that were designed to be "update" the previously existing armies and also bring some of the new armies that had their rules scattered in various campaign books into one place.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Galef wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Okay. This makes me feel 30% better.

I was opposed to a hard reboot from the beginning, but if they are at least releasing "low-cost" army books, I too feel better about this.
It's just a shame that I have over $600 worth of army books that are now worthless.

Another reason i collect and play only ba and iks.

For me this makes me feel 0% better. When AoS came out the rules were joke rules, the world was destroyed, the lore was destroyed, it was a slap to Oldhammer players and the big gift was 40k players got a secondary game to which most of them never even play at my store. Blood bowl is probably more popular than AoS at the local GW. That's not a good thing.

It sounds exactly like AoS which is a horrible thing. I played Fantasy and i know nothing they said sounds any different than the release of AoS.

Boohoo, they had silly rules that effectively did nothing.

Rules like "If you can't see the sunlight or are playing at night", some of the Vampire Counts characters got better or if you pretended to ride on a horse or whatever certain Empire guys got to reroll 1s or crap like that.

I don't understand why people got so in a tizzy about that. If you didn't want the bonuses, you didn't have to do it. If you wanted the bonus that benefited you in game--you got to look like a schmuck.

 Kanluwen wrote:



Rules like "If you can't see the sunlight or are playing at night", some of the Vampire Counts characters got better or if you pretended to ride on a horse or whatever certain Empire guys got to reroll 1s or crap like that.

I don't understand why people got so in a tizzy about that. If you didn't want the bonuses, you didn't have to do it. If you wanted the bonus that benefited you in game--you got to look like a schmuck.

I didn't pay over a thousand dollars to look like a jack ass and get bait and switched to a game i didn't like, want or ask for. Yes it matters to me and they still have yet to update the actual army i used to play. There's a possibility they'll write off the army too.

It went for about 8 years without an update for Skaven before Fantasy died and 2 without an update in AoS for new units. I don't really count End Times but i'll admit they gave skaven something.

So, the Nids that are threatening to eat the universe might actually become...threatening?

who knows they might just all gain the primitive rule and do half dmg vs modern armored stuff.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
So, the Nids that are threatening to eat the universe might actually become...threatening?

If GW doesn't do anything too drastic i actually want to do Genestealer Cults next. I find it crazy after dealing with both GSC and Nids that a world could handle both without falling. Just one is bad enough and GSC just need a few survivors to start anew. It's like orks except two awful and different threats instead of one. Also similar to chaos cults in that you don't really know who they are until they reveal it. I'm sure there are ways though.

I think this is a step in the right direction, I have been priced out of legally purchased rules for the whole of 7th. Mainly as a choice, but prefer to have my money spent on their models.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
So, the Nids that are threatening to eat the universe might actually become...threatening?

If GW doesn't do anything too drastic i actually want to do Genestealer Cults next. I find it crazy after dealing with both GSC and Nids that a world could handle both without falling. Just one is bad enough and GSC just need a few survivors to start anew. It's like orks except two awful and different threats instead of one. Also similar to chaos cults in that you don't really know who they are until they reveal it. I'm sure there are ways though.

The inhuman appetite kinda gives them away.
It's not tapeworm, that guy is a GSC scout.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
So, the Nids that are threatening to eat the universe might actually become...threatening?

If GW doesn't do anything too drastic i actually want to do Genestealer Cults next. I find it crazy after dealing with both GSC and Nids that a world could handle both without falling. Just one is bad enough and GSC just need a few survivors to start anew. It's like orks except two awful and different threats instead of one. Also similar to chaos cults in that you don't really know who they are until they reveal it. I'm sure there are ways though.

The inhuman appetite kinda gives them away.
It's not tapeworm, that guy is a GSC scout.

I do imagine they'd be sorta easy to spot unless they're really good 4th generation ones but other than that you could probably tell. This is of course the imperium which has lots of mutants though and you'd think Tau would be accepting in normal situations for any abnormality or xenos race which is their own undoing.

I just hope I don't have to yell louder than my opponent or have a longer beard or something to activate any special rules or abilities.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I just hope I don't have to yell louder than my opponent or have a longer beard or something to activate any special rules or abilities.

lol that was the initial launch stuff, that hasn't been in AoS after everyone freaked out about it.

 TheIronCrow wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I just hope I don't have to yell louder than my opponent or have a longer beard or something to activate any special rules or abilities.

lol that was the initial launch stuff, that hasn't been in AoS after everyone freaked out about it.

They weren't even meant to be permanent. They were an attempt at nostalgic levity, to lighten the blow of torching the Old World.

It was a bad joke, but they were trying. They just forgot how many players take this silly hobby way too seriously.

I will be very happy if I can get most of the rules for free and try out whatever I want whenever I want, but have the options to buy 'battletomes' with fluff, art and a formation or two. I think it works perfectly in AoS.

 Formerly Wu wrote:

 TheIronCrow wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I just hope I don't have to yell louder than my opponent or have a longer beard or something to activate any special rules or abilities.

lol that was the initial launch stuff, that hasn't been in AoS after everyone freaked out about it.

They weren't even meant to be permanent. They were an attempt at nostalgic levity, to lighten the blow of torching the Old World.

It was a bad joke, but they were trying. They just forgot how many players take this silly hobby way too seriously.

Well, people probably would have dealt with that better had the rest of the launch been better managed. It felt like they put in more effort on the gimmickry and "look at this cool new big flashy kit" side than actually creating a good ruleset, and it just didn't go over particularly well, hence why it's took so long for AoS to get to where Fantasy was even in its death-spiral late 8E state. It also didn't help that people felt that Fantasy could have been mostly fixed with like a few pages worth of rules changes and some model count reduction, so when a complete reboot that was little more than a quickstart ruleset was released, the goofiness didn't click with most people.

 davou wrote:

Ravingbantha wrote:
GW has said they plan to reward 'themed' armies, that means more specialized formations with rules that create 'unbalance'.

No offense, but what makes you think you're right about that? Nobody knows at this point.

The unbalance part is pure speculation yea, but they did say they were intentionally trying to make builds more fluffy/contain detachments that were fluff based. I believe it was quoted at a Q&A panel at a recent event by GW, I read it from Faeit/Bols I would look it up but I got to go! :-)

This is really smart. I'm much more likely to pick up a random box of something that I want to paint without it meaning that I am committing to a codex as well. I can actually also attract people to the game now if I tell them that one start collecting box is all they need to play a game.

 Egyptian Space Zombie wrote:
This is really smart. I'm much more likely to pick up a random box of something that I want to paint without it meaning that I am committing to a codex as well. I can actually also attract people to the game now if I tell them that one start collecting box is all they need to play a game.

This much is true and reasonable.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Egyptian Space Zombie wrote:
This is really smart. I'm much more likely to pick up a random box of something that I want to paint without it meaning that I am committing to a codex as well. I can actually also attract people to the game now if I tell them that one start collecting box is all they need to play a game.

This much is true and reasonable.

Not sure where people are getting this idea from?

They have invalidated the current codexs not said they are scrapping codexs. Look at AoS and you have battle tombs you have to buy sames as codexs now.
Also who can say if 1 start collecting box is all thats needed, because that is certainly not true with most AoS start collecting boxes.

There just seems to be a lot of people being wildly optimistic about the situation.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Egyptian Space Zombie wrote:
This is really smart. I'm much more likely to pick up a random box of something that I want to paint without it meaning that I am committing to a codex as well. I can actually also attract people to the game now if I tell them that one start collecting box is all they need to play a game.

This much is true and reasonable.

Just read the FAQ.
Glad they acknowledge 3 different forms of play: Open play, Narrative play and Matched play.
I like dabbling in all 3 methods so I can approve readily.
I have no problem with old codexes are not compatible with the new rules.
Not to say they are still not useful for the various fluff and flavor.
Things have been patched so much that I hate to say a new re-write was overdue.
I hope they got some smart folk on-line to ensure a clean ruleset to play to.
The stories continue, if the new rules allow us to play out the various stories of 40k I think there will be much happiness with this.
Having a balanced element for competitive play will make me a VERY happy person.
Tournaments are SO much more fun with some core balancing in the rule-set.
Heck, I was ready to jump down the Shadow War Armageddon rabbit hole and say goodbye to normal 40k.
Now they go do this!
At least SWA IS a good diversion until 8th hits.

SeanDrake wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Egyptian Space Zombie wrote:
This is really smart. I'm much more likely to pick up a random box of something that I want to paint without it meaning that I am committing to a codex as well. I can actually also attract people to the game now if I tell them that one start collecting box is all they need to play a game.

This much is true and reasonable.

Not sure where people are getting this idea from?

They have invalidated the current codexs not said they are scrapping codexs. Look at AoS and you have battle tombs you have to buy sames as codexs now.
Also who can say if 1 start collecting box is all thats needed, because that is certainly not true with most AoS start collecting boxes.

There just seems to be a lot of people being wildly optimistic about the situation.

Unit stats and core rules are free on the website and app bro. You need one general's handbook per gaming group to play with points. You can buy the battletomes, but they are not needed to play.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

He can't be Kirby 2.0. Everything is just so much better than it used to be.

I'm eagerly awaiting this, mostly because cost will be minimal. Had I needed to buy anything from scratch I'd be pretty pissed.

Smoke and mirrors.

Sure, we'll get free rules and warscrolls, but as the saying goes "you get what you pay for". They'll be designed in a way people will LEAP at buying the following books because they'll be so much "better".

And while I expect we'll get rules for "all existing models", I fully expect we'll see several individual models, if not entire armies, vanish within the next 6-12 months after release (my bet is on Sisters).

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

I didn't pay over a thousand dollars to look like a jack ass and get bait and switched to a game i didn't like, want or ask for. Yes it matters to me and they still have yet to update the actual army i used to play. There's a possibility they'll write off the army too.

It went for about 8 years without an update for Skaven before Fantasy died and 2 without an update in AoS for new units. I don't really count End Times but i'll admit they gave skaven something.

My Bretonnians have really enjoyed the buff the war scrolls gave them. My Sisters are looking forward to what the update at edition start will give or take from them. A thousand dollars and you didnt do any research into your investment? It happens with every edition. Its not like they just printed the "final edition" and then carted 40k off to specialist games. Things aren't nearly as bleak as you think.

Give me free rules, game wide unit updates for everything at edition start, and lessons learned by bringing in the changes of the ghb at the get go and you might get me actually playing 40k again.

Wait and see, its natural to hate change, but if this is change to you, you haven't been around long enough to know how good you already have it. Seriously though, a thousand dollars?

I almost can't believe that document is real, it sounds too reasonable and inclusive of fan feedback...

All I want from all of this is a generic Scout Marine HQ Choice... and to actually want to play a game where I am enjoying a pickup game and not having to check the rulebook every couple of minutes. Tired of wargaming feeling like it is a second job trying to remember every rule and interraction.

 Stormonu wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

He can't be Kirby 2.0. Everything is just so much better than it used to be.

I'm eagerly awaiting this, mostly because cost will be minimal. Had I needed to buy anything from scratch I'd be pretty pissed.

Smoke and mirrors.

Sure, we'll get free rules and warscrolls, but as the saying goes "you get what you pay for". They'll be designed in a way people will LEAP at buying the following books because they'll be so much "better".

And while I expect we'll get rules for "all existing models", I fully expect we'll see several individual models, if not entire armies, vanish within the next 6-12 months after release (my bet is on Sisters).

Here's the thing, the books are 18$ on the app and you don't need them. Google your warlord traits and relics buy, or again google a 2$ formation and you're done. Tournament ready army for 2 dollars. Hell, I don't even use any of the formations, the newest codex actually brought my army DOWN in power and I still bought it because it was cool and going through the codex and building lists is the best part of the game.

As for armies getting dropped, maybe? I doubt it but it's possible, brettonians and tomb kings were copywrite issues more than anything. Doomsaying about dropping sisters is silly though, they'll have to do new rules at launched and the only difference between being dropped and the last 20 years has been Celestine and semantics.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Well, people probably would have dealt with that better had the rest of the launch been better managed. It felt like they put in more effort on the gimmickry and "look at this cool new big flashy kit" side than actually creating a good ruleset, and it just didn't go over particularly well, hence why it's took so long for AoS to get to where Fantasy was even in its death-spiral late 8E state. It also didn't help that people felt that Fantasy could have been mostly fixed with like a few pages worth of rules changes and some model count reduction, so when a complete reboot that was little more than a quickstart ruleset was released, the goofiness didn't click with most people.

Agreed. They didn't earn the trust required for the goofiness to come across as nostalgic and fun instead of- excuse me- [pours a shot of whiskey] a "slap in the face." [downs the shot]

That's why I think they're pushing the community engagement and transparency so hard this time around. They know they fethed it all up last time. And good on them for it.

I don't know. I kind of feel like Gathering Storm was meant to imply that the new edition would be more or less compatible with the current rules, at least that's the way I saw it. I'm curious to see how they treat armies that were built around the old rules. Sure Necrons wil still be playable but are they going to invalidate the Decurian style of army? I'm guessing my 3000 point War Convocation is out although I hope it remains in some way a playable force.

I guess I still feel the sting from my Fantasy experience. Here's some warscrolls, now we're never going to mention Tomb Kings again. I have almost 10,000 points that sit on a shelf.

ERJAK wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

He can't be Kirby 2.0. Everything is just so much better than it used to be.

I'm eagerly awaiting this, mostly because cost will be minimal. Had I needed to buy anything from scratch I'd be pretty pissed.

Smoke and mirrors.

Sure, we'll get free rules and warscrolls, but as the saying goes "you get what you pay for". They'll be designed in a way people will LEAP at buying the following books because they'll be so much "better".

And while I expect we'll get rules for "all existing models", I fully expect we'll see several individual models, if not entire armies, vanish within the next 6-12 months after release (my bet is on Sisters).

Here's the thing, the books are 18$ on the app and you don't need them. Google your warlord traits and relics buy, or again google a 2$ formation and you're done. Tournament ready army for 2 dollars. Hell, I don't even use any of the formations, the newest codex actually brought my army DOWN in power and I still bought it because it was cool and going through the codex and building lists is the best part of the game.

As for armies getting dropped, maybe? I doubt it but it's possible, brettonians and tomb kings were copywrite issues more than anything. Doomsaying about dropping sisters is silly though, they'll have to do new rules at launched and the only difference between being dropped and the last 20 years has been Celestine and semantics.

He's very fond of stating Smoke and Mirrors. Though they've already stated they won't drop armies this time around, though I'm betting they'll change some up a bit.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

He can't be Kirby 2.0. Everything is just so much better than it used to be.

I'm eagerly awaiting this, mostly because cost will be minimal. Had I needed to buy anything from scratch I'd be pretty pissed.

Smoke and mirrors.

Sure, we'll get free rules and warscrolls, but as the saying goes "you get what you pay for". They'll be designed in a way people will LEAP at buying the following books because they'll be so much "better".

And while I expect we'll get rules for "all existing models", I fully expect we'll see several individual models, if not entire armies, vanish within the next 6-12 months after release (my bet is on Sisters).

Here's the thing, the books are 18$ on the app and you don't need them. Google your warlord traits and relics buy, or again google a 2$ formation and you're done. Tournament ready army for 2 dollars. Hell, I don't even use any of the formations, the newest codex actually brought my army DOWN in power and I still bought it because it was cool and going through the codex and building lists is the best part of the game.

As for armies getting dropped, maybe? I doubt it but it's possible, brettonians and tomb kings were copywrite issues more than anything. Doomsaying about dropping sisters is silly though, they'll have to do new rules at launched and the only difference between being dropped and the last 20 years has been Celestine and semantics.

He's very fond of stating Smoke and Mirrors. Though they've already stated they won't drop armies this time around, though I'm betting they'll change some up a bit.

I think their treatment of Tyranids broke me.

I only came back to 40K when the new Necrons came about at the end of 5th. The enthusiasm has been waning since then. I'd thought GW was turning a corner when RoundTree took over, but I feel I've come to the realization they're still doing the same exact thing as before, but with a new coat of paint that has everyone believing they've wiped away the sins of the past. However, at this point I still see overpriced models (by about 20%), poorly written rules slap-dashed together and a company that doesn't seem to fully understand its own customer base. I'm not inclined to believe this will all suddenly change when 8th drops.

Though I will happily take a copy of the free rules and see what they do for my Tyranid, Necron, Tau, SM, IG, (son's) Chaos, (other son's) Ork and (guest) Eldar army. If it's not to my liking, I have my own ruleset I've been working on to turn to, and enough models I don't need to buy any more from GW.

To me The Gathering Storm feels a bit like End Times. But thanks to the FAQ i am still optimistic.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I played Warhammer Fantasy and the game ended up worse than i'd ever feared it could in AoS and thought people were crazy thinking it'd be as bad as they said and it was worse than that.

Just take this from experience. Have a back-up plan if things hit the crapper. Go to X-wing or something. Don't buy any gathering storm models as it'll be a slap in the face that you paid hundreds just to be competitive only to have all the rules change and become a game you disliked. I still have unfinished stormfiends and a mostly broken vermin lord from when GW switched to AoS. All my in progress Fantasy models remain unbuilt and never will be. Just putting it this way if you're thinking about buying more GW models. DON'T. Wait and see and don't have high hopes so that maybe you'll feel better when GW possibly screws over all of us.

If you want to have a good Warhammer Fantasy experience take a look at Warhammer CE. I really like it. I have played a few AoS games and decided it is not for me. The lack of WS, BS, S and T and the almost non existens of tactic except "do i push this unit in the big pile of CC or not" All this just doesn't appeal to me.

Has anyone requested a refund for recently bought codexes?

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Has anyone requested a refund for recently bought codexes?

Consumer Law says they have to give a refund. Depends on how long ago it was purchased.

 oldzoggy wrote:

No more silly decurions hopefully

lol...

Silly you have you looked at AoS recently ; )
All is decurions over there. The FAQ told us that all codexes where invalidated not that they aren't releasing AoS syle groups of units that get free bonuses but are totally not formations or decurions.

Tomb Kings, Mixed Destruction, Mixed Order Gunlines and Sayl-bombs disagree badly.

Also, free bonuses? You are the one that should have looked at AoS.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Has anyone requested a refund for recently bought codexes?

Well you might as well try but i doubt it'd work anyway. In a sense it's not illegal to jump onto another edition and then laughing at the poor guy's who just treated himself to some books face, in particular when this invaliding is linked with the total refund of the game we've been pleading for (I personally did so I can't blame them on that point.)

NH Gunsmith wrote:All I want from all of this is a generic Scout Marine HQ Choice... and to actually want to play a game where I am enjoying a pickup game and not having to check the rulebook every couple of minutes. Tired of wargaming feeling like it is a second job trying to remember every rule and interraction.

Well, if you want a Scout HQ, there is Telion. Of course, that would force you into using Ultramarine Chapter Tactics.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

NH Gunsmith wrote:All I want from all of this is a generic Scout Marine HQ Choice... and to actually want to play a game where I am enjoying a pickup game and not having to check the rulebook every couple of minutes. Tired of wargaming feeling like it is a second job trying to remember every rule and interraction.

Well, if you want a Scout HQ, there is Telion. Of course, that would force you into using Ultramarine Chapter Tactics.

Or 30k. Legion Vigilator.

That said AoS took a bunch of special characters and genericized them (e.g. the old Drycha model is now a 'Branchwraith', Kroq-Gar is now the generic Carnosaur Oldblood...) so GW may make 40k Vigilators with generic rules and have the Telion model as the picture in the book.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

NH Gunsmith wrote:All I want from all of this is a generic Scout Marine HQ Choice... and to actually want to play a game where I am enjoying a pickup game and not having to check the rulebook every couple of minutes. Tired of wargaming feeling like it is a second job trying to remember every rule and interraction.

Well, if you want a Scout HQ, there is Telion. Of course, that would force you into using Ultramarine Chapter Tactics.

Or 30k. Legion Vigilator.

That said AoS took a bunch of special characters and genericized them (e.g. the old Drycha model is now a 'Branchwraith', Kroq-Gar is now the generic Carnosaur Oldblood...) so GW may make 40k Vigilators with generic rules and have the Telion model as the picture in the book.

Several of the generized lords got newer models (like Drycha) or ar slated for it (like Krell), so I'd not hold my breath. That or that they'll approach heroes differently.

nordsturmking wrote:
To me The Gathering Storm feels a bit like End Times. But thanks to the FAQ i am still optimistic.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I played Warhammer Fantasy and the game ended up worse than i'd ever feared it could in AoS and thought people were crazy thinking it'd be as bad as they said and it was worse than that.

Just take this from experience. Have a back-up plan if things hit the crapper. Go to X-wing or something. Don't buy any gathering storm models as it'll be a slap in the face that you paid hundreds just to be competitive only to have all the rules change and become a game you disliked. I still have unfinished stormfiends and a mostly broken vermin lord from when GW switched to AoS. All my in progress Fantasy models remain unbuilt and never will be. Just putting it this way if you're thinking about buying more GW models. DON'T. Wait and see and don't have high hopes so that maybe you'll feel better when GW possibly screws over all of us.

If you want to have a good Warhammer Fantasy experience take a look at Warhammer CE. I really like it. I have played a few AoS games and decided it is not for me. The lack of WS, BS, S and T and the almost non existens of tactic except "do i push this unit in the big pile of CC or not" All this just doesn't appeal to me.

See if you just stopped at 'it's not for me' that would be fine, not everygame appeals to every player, but then you add on the tactics thing and ruin it.

Warhammer Fantasy was LITERALLY 'push big blocks of units in a pile of CC or not' except the answer was always 'not until turn 4 when my magic has obliterated 3/4ths of his army while our big tough melee units stare at each other longingly'. People got 'boredom' and 'tactics' confused a lot in that game.

Not seeing tactics in sigmar just means you suck at sigmar and if you go to even small local events and try that you'll get tabled every game even against narrative armies.

 Roknar wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 Roknar wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
Jep I sure hope they don't go for the option

Here is a warscroll for each unit, they can only buy more dudes no equipment or other options, 90% of your models are now web only and will never get an update so you can all have fun AoS style.

The new TSons units in particular make me wary of this happening here too. We're only a stepping stone away from loosing our armoury...again.

Alternatively, the entire armoury is on the datasheet instead of searching through the book for a reference.

That would work too. Even allows for adjusting points, but I don't see that happening lol.

Aside from points, that's what every AoS Warscroll is.

The downside is that the options may end up being very limited to what's in the box...

 Charistoph wrote:

Aside from points, that's what every AoS Warscroll is.

The downside is that the options may end up being very limited to what's in the box...

That's kind of the way 30k already is, and I don't hear many people complaining about it there. In 30k TAC squads are just a boat load of dudes with bolters and Devastators can only have one weapon type per unit. I already make my 40k armies that way, because why have squads with a bunch of random weapons when you can have some maxed out on Grav Guns and some maxed out on Multimeltas etc. to use for different purposes? In any case, since they said that all current armies and models will be valid, I highly doubt they will take away wargear choices and unit customization entirely.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Roknar wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 Roknar wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
Jep I sure hope they don't go for the option

Here is a warscroll for each unit, they can only buy more dudes no equipment or other options, 90% of your models are now web only and will never get an update so you can all have fun AoS style.

The new TSons units in particular make me wary of this happening here too. We're only a stepping stone away from loosing our armoury...again.

Alternatively, the entire armoury is on the datasheet instead of searching through the book for a reference.

That would work too. Even allows for adjusting points, but I don't see that happening lol.

Aside from points, that's what every AoS Warscroll is.

The downside is that the options may end up being very limited to what's in the box...

Yea I meant with the same amount of choice as you do now, which is a boatload. Including things that don't have models.
And on that topic, how does AoS handle relics?

 Roknar wrote:

And on that topic, how does AoS handle relics?

Relics work very differently in AoS. Any Hero gets one, as long as its not a named model. You DON'T roll for it, you CHOOSE it. Unless you want to. Then for every Battalion (Formation) you can have another Hero take a Relic. A Hero can only have 1 Relic. IIRC you can take multiples of a Relic. So if you have 2 Battalions you can have 3 Relics on 3 different Heroes and they can all be the same.

We talking about the same thing here?. What you described sounds more like warlord traits then relics? I'm talking about things like the axe of blind fury.

 Roknar wrote:
We talking about the same thing here?. What you described sounds more like warlord traits then relics? I'm talking about things like the axe of blind fury.

Unlike in 40k you can either choose to random roll it.. or Pick things. Warlord Traits? You pick it. Magic Powers/Prayers? You pick it. Relics? You pick it.

The only random rolling you do is if you WANT to, but yes you can select Relics and give them to people, they don't tend to replace things and tend to give bonuses to the hero in question. For example the new Blades of Khorne has the Mark of the Destroyer which doubles all your weapons attacks but if you fail to kill anything you become a chaos spawn.

Hmm, after the debacle that was AoS I remain to be persuaded that GW can do anything for the better.

oh man, picking warlord traits would make for some nice new flavors of stanky cheese in the current game

 davou wrote:
oh man, picking warlord traits would make for some nice new flavors of stanky cheese in the current game

Yup...and it makes Warlord Traits effectively pointless, since it would be just another way for certain people to do the "I need to take the most effective option".

I liked pre-GHB Age of Sigmar and the way it worked there.
Each type of Hero had a special "Command Ability" they could use. It was specific to that Hero, and only the one who was your General could use their Command Ability.

Some really, really high end Heroes had a Command Ability/trait native to them which allowed all Heroes to use their Command Abilities and some formations allowed for that as well...but it was far from common.

Every edition pretty much wipes the codex slate clean. The community was FAR too accepting of the codex bloat in 7th, I eagerly await the streamlining - even if the codexes I've bought in the last 6 months just become shelf reference material.

 Roknar wrote:
We talking about the same thing here?. What you described sounds more like warlord traits then relics? I'm talking about things like the axe of blind fury.

Warlord Traits are Command Abilities in AoS and each Hero has one but only the General can use theirs. The GH and the newer faction books have additional Command Abilities and you can do the same as with Relics: choose or roll. However, they work differently from Warlord Traits. While Warlord Traits tend to be a passive bonus, Command Abilities need to be activated by your General every turn and each General always has at least 1 Command, even if they don't have one listed in their profile. The basic rules give an ability that allows one unit within 18" ignore Battleshock.

So as an example:
My General is a Lord of Change. I can give him a Relic and choose Sentient Weapons which does not allow enemy units to benefit from modifiers to their saves (like a +1 from Cover). I can also give him a Command Ability and take Magical Supremacy which increases his spell unbind from 18" to 27", but I have to use that instead of his other Command Abilities (this is part of where AoS tactics start to show). I can also give him an additional spell from the Deamon Lore of my choice. Again, I can either look at the list and choose or randomly roll for all of these.

Also, since points work differently in AoS, there is no cost associated with the Relic. It's effectively a free upgrade for the Hero

 master of ordinance wrote:
Hmm, after the debacle that was AoS I remain to be persuaded that GW can do anything for the better.

AoS may have been a debacle at release, but in its current state a majority of people seem pretty pleased with it. It certainly seems that AoS has a fun and vital energy which current 40k lacks almost entirely. The only people who are truly invested in current 40k are min-maxing tournament tryhards who only care about cheesing their way to wins. A majority of other people are in it mainly for the collecting and hobby side, or are playing 30k and AoS for fun because they don't have a cut-throat, cookie cutter meta where the only thing that matters is winning and the only way to win is outdo your opponents' willingness to be a sheisty cheesemonger.

ERJAK wrote:

nordsturmking wrote:
To me The Gathering Storm feels a bit like End Times. But thanks to the FAQ i am still optimistic.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I played Warhammer Fantasy and the game ended up worse than i'd ever feared it could in AoS and thought people were crazy thinking it'd be as bad as they said and it was worse than that.

Just take this from experience. Have a back-up plan if things hit the crapper. Go to X-wing or something. Don't buy any gathering storm models as it'll be a slap in the face that you paid hundreds just to be competitive only to have all the rules change and become a game you disliked. I still have unfinished stormfiends and a mostly broken vermin lord from when GW switched to AoS. All my in progress Fantasy models remain unbuilt and never will be. Just putting it this way if you're thinking about buying more GW models. DON'T. Wait and see and don't have high hopes so that maybe you'll feel better when GW possibly screws over all of us.

If you want to have a good Warhammer Fantasy experience take a look at Warhammer CE. I really like it. I have played a few AoS games and decided it is not for me. The lack of WS, BS, S and T and the almost non existens of tactic except "do i push this unit in the big pile of CC or not" All this just doesn't appeal to me.

See if you just stopped at 'it's not for me' that would be fine, not everygame appeals to every player, but then you add on the tactics thing and ruin it.

Warhammer Fantasy was LITERALLY 'push big blocks of units in a pile of CC or not' except the answer was always 'not until turn 4 when my magic has obliterated 3/4ths of his army while our big tough melee units stare at each other longingly'. People got 'boredom' and 'tactics' confused a lot in that game.

Not seeing tactics in sigmar just means you suck at sigmar and if you go to even small local events and try that you'll get tabled every game even against narrative armies.

I was talking about 6th & 7th Edition of WHF. i didn’t liked the 8th Edition. Because like you said magic was way to powerful and some other things like random charge distances. And getting the charge didn’t matter that much because you didn’t lose attacks from losing models. And if we are talking about WoC vs Bretonia yes most thing were decided in CC. but if you played Wood Elves vs Empire for example it was a very tactical game. You could redirect unit with a throw away unit and lead the of the table so that unit was out of the game for 2 turns and such things unit facing mattered etc.

 Luciferian wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Hmm, after the debacle that was AoS I remain to be persuaded that GW can do anything for the better.

AoS may have been a debacle at release, but in its current state a majority of people seem pretty pleased with it. It certainly seems that AoS has a fun and vital energy which current 40k lacks almost entirely. The only people who are truly invested in current 40k are min-maxing tournament tryhards who only care about cheesing their way to wins. A majority of other people are in it mainly for the collecting and hobby side, or are playing 30k and AoS for fun because they don't have a cut-throat, cookie cutter meta where the only thing that matters is winning and the only way to win is outdo your opponents' willingness to be a sheisty cheesemonger.

I really hope they do something about this and reward fluffy armies. GW needs to adjust the point costs cuz that’s an easy ans almost the only way to balance the game. If a Wk would cost as much as a barbed hierodule we wouldn’t see 4 or more of them in a 1850p army

 Luciferian wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Hmm, after the debacle that was AoS I remain to be persuaded that GW can do anything for the better.

AoS may have been a debacle at release, but in its current state a majority of people seem pretty pleased with it. It certainly seems that AoS has a fun and vital energy which current 40k lacks almost entirely. The only people who are truly invested in current 40k are min-maxing tournament tryhards who only care about cheesing their way to wins. A majority of other people are in it mainly for the collecting and hobby side, or are playing 30k and AoS for fun because they don't have a cut-throat, cookie cutter meta where the only thing that matters is winning and the only way to win is outdo your opponents' willingness to be a sheisty cheesemonger.

Well let's be honest AoS is full of people who think basic math is hard and that rolling 40 dice is the epitome of tactical wargaming and have to have there hand held incase the opponent actually tries to win reulting in them either flipping the table or bursting into , see I can do sterotyping and over generalisation. For an ultra casual game full of people who abhor the thought of competition or even trying to win the game it's amazing how it's attracted people who manage to sound worse than tournement 40k and warmahordes players.

SeanDrake wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Hmm, after the debacle that was AoS I remain to be persuaded that GW can do anything for the better.

AoS may have been a debacle at release, but in its current state a majority of people seem pretty pleased with it. It certainly seems that AoS has a fun and vital energy which current 40k lacks almost entirely. The only people who are truly invested in current 40k are min-maxing tournament tryhards who only care about cheesing their way to wins. A majority of other people are in it mainly for the collecting and hobby side, or are playing 30k and AoS for fun because they don't have a cut-throat, cookie cutter meta where the only thing that matters is winning and the only way to win is outdo your opponents' willingness to be a sheisty cheesemonger.

Well let's be honest AoS is full of people who think basic math is hard and that rolling 40 dice is the epitome of tactical wargaming and have to have there hand held incase the opponent actually tries to win reulting in them either flipping the table or bursting into , see I can do sterotyping and over generalisation. For an ultra casual game full of people who abhor the thought of competition or even trying to win the game it's amazing how it's attracted people who manage to sound worse than tournement 40k and warmahordes players.

See above for someone who thinks cramming as many riptides as possible into a list is tactical skill.

BomBomHotdog wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
We talking about the same thing here?. What you described sounds more like warlord traits then relics? I'm talking about things like the axe of blind fury.

Warlord Traits are Command Abilities in AoS

Not quite there, actually. AoS equivalent of Warlord traits are Command traits, which are ALWAYS a one per army deal and named characters are barred from. Command abilities can be used multiple instances per turn on certain conditions and named characters have them.

Roknar wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
Aside from points, that's what every AoS Warscroll is.

The downside is that the options may end up being very limited to what's in the box...

Yea I meant with the same amount of choice as you do now, which is a boatload. Including things that don't have models.
And on that topic, how does AoS handle relics?

Not entirely. Many current codex options include things which you would not find in the box, such as Heavy weapon Teams in an Infantry Squad or Lascannons in a Tactical Squad.

Lord Kragan wrote:

BomBomHotdog wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
We talking about the same thing here?. What you described sounds more like warlord traits then relics? I'm talking about things like the axe of blind fury.

Warlord Traits are Command Abilities in AoS

Not quite there, actually. AoS equivalent of Warlord traits are Command traits, which are ALWAYS a one per army deal and named characters are barred from. Command abilities can be used multiple instances per turn on certain conditions and named characters have them.

somehow managed to confuse them and stand corrected

Anyway, with no Codexes and, initial, free rules for all models it's going to be a good start. What I'm really interested in seeing is what comes after. In AoS we had Scenario books which had some really fun games that mixed with the storyline. They also had Warscrolls for various models, usually ones that were key to what was going on in the book. Then we got faction specific books (Death, Order, Chaos, Destruction). This is what I do not want to see. What I would like to see would be books for specific forces, like current codexes, but they can "slim down" the line by combining Imperium into one book as well as Chaos and Eldar.

nordsturmking wrote:
From the new FAQ:
Q:Is my army still valid?
A:Yes, it certainly is! You’ll still be able to use your army in the new edition of Warhammer 40,000.
All current armies will be supported with new rules

Q:Can I still use all my models?
A:Yes. Every Warhammer 40,000 miniature we sell today will be usable in the new edition of
Warhammer 40,000. What’s more, they’ll be supported with new rules, which will be available
from the get go in handy, low-cost books.

So this means new rules for my struggling tyranids.

And in one place. I swear the tyranid rules and formations are over so many books I wouldn't be surprised if I opened up the infintryman's uplifting primer and found a tyranid formation.

I am just happy GW can now acknowledge "here is a portion of the game that is intended for competitive play".
So an attempt at balance is done and the expectation of bringing your best is really that.
Scenario games and "bring everything" just like competitive have their place, it is just nice to be able to choose a preference and hopefully have everyone on the same page.

 Jaxler wrote:

nordsturmking wrote:
From the new FAQ:
Q:Is my army still valid?
A:Yes, it certainly is! You’ll still be able to use your army in the new edition of Warhammer 40,000.
All current armies will be supported with new rules

Q:Can I still use all my models?
A:Yes. Every Warhammer 40,000 miniature we sell today will be usable in the new edition of
Warhammer 40,000. What’s more, they’ll be supported with new rules, which will be available
from the get go in handy, low-cost books.

So this means new rules for my struggling tyranids.

And in one place. I swear the tyranid rules and formations are over so many books I wouldn't be surprised if I opened up the infintryman's uplifting primer and found a tyranid formation.

Yep exactly. and those don’t even have print versions. I can't wait to see what we are getting

BomBomHotdog wrote:Anyway, with no Codexes and, initial, free rules for all models it's going to be a good start. What I'm really interested in seeing is what comes after. In AoS we had Scenario books which had some really fun games that mixed with the storyline. They also had Warscrolls for various models, usually ones that were key to what was going on in the book. Then we got faction specific books (Death, Order, Chaos, Destruction). This is what I do not want to see. What I would like to see would be books for specific forces, like current codexes, but they can "slim down" the line by combining Imperium into one book as well as Chaos and Eldar.

Another way to slim them down is to to not have the datasheets in them. The datsheets would now be found like the Sigmar Warscrolls. They can be printable for just what you want to use rather than a huge book you won't use most of.

The books would have the formations and detachment configurations along with the basic history of faction's armies. This allows them to not need to be updated so much, as the datasheets can be updated on a regular basis.

SeanDrake wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Hmm, after the debacle that was AoS I remain to be persuaded that GW can do anything for the better.

AoS may have been a debacle at release, but in its current state a majority of people seem pretty pleased with it. It certainly seems that AoS has a fun and vital energy which current 40k lacks almost entirely. The only people who are truly invested in current 40k are min-maxing tournament tryhards who only care about cheesing their way to wins. A majority of other people are in it mainly for the collecting and hobby side, or are playing 30k and AoS for fun because they don't have a cut-throat, cookie cutter meta where the only thing that matters is winning and the only way to win is outdo your opponents' willingness to be a sheisty cheesemonger.

Well let's be honest AoS is full of people who think basic math is hard and that rolling 40 dice is the epitome of tactical wargaming and have to have there hand held incase the opponent actually tries to win reulting in them either flipping the table or bursting into , see I can do sterotyping and over generalisation. For an ultra casual game full of people who abhor the thought of competition or even trying to win the game it's amazing how it's attracted people who manage to sound worse than tournement 40k and warmahordes players.

You opened yourself up to it by using deliberately inflammatory language. I know this is the internet and 'yur sh*t lol, no yur sh*t lol, wow so mature calling someone sh*t lol' is a tried and true debate tactic but it doesn't automatically absolve you of wrongdoing.'

ERJAK wrote:

SeanDrake wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Hmm, after the debacle that was AoS I remain to be persuaded that GW can do anything for the better.

AoS may have been a debacle at release, but in its current state a majority of people seem pretty pleased with it. It certainly seems that AoS has a fun and vital energy which current 40k lacks almost entirely. The only people who are truly invested in current 40k are min-maxing tournament tryhards who only care about cheesing their way to wins. A majority of other people are in it mainly for the collecting and hobby side, or are playing 30k and AoS for fun because they don't have a cut-throat, cookie cutter meta where the only thing that matters is winning and the only way to win is outdo your opponents' willingness to be a sheisty cheesemonger.

Well let's be honest AoS is full of people who think basic math is hard and that rolling 40 dice is the epitome of tactical wargaming and have to have there hand held incase the opponent actually tries to win reulting in them either flipping the table or bursting into , see I can do sterotyping and over generalisation. For an ultra casual game full of people who abhor the thought of competition or even trying to win the game it's amazing how it's attracted people who manage to sound worse than tournement 40k and warmahordes players.

You opened yourself up to it by using deliberately inflammatory language. I know this is the internet and 'yur sh*t lol, no yur sh*t lol, wow so mature calling someone sh*t lol' is a tried and true debate tactic but it doesn't automatically absolve you of wrongdoing.'

Im with Erjack on this

 Luciferian wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Hmm, after the debacle that was AoS I remain to be persuaded that GW can do anything for the better.

AoS may have been a debacle at release, but in its current state a majority of people seem pretty pleased with it. It certainly seems that AoS has a fun and vital energy which current 40k lacks almost entirely. The only people who are truly invested in current 40k are min-maxing tournament tryhards who only care about cheesing their way to wins. A majority of other people are in it mainly for the collecting and hobby side, or are playing 30k and AoS for fun because they don't have a cut-throat, cookie cutter meta where the only thing that matters is winning and the only way to win is outdo your opponents' willingness to be a sheisty cheesemonger.

This may be your experience, but painting every 40k player with this brush is a clear violation of Rule #1. I personally know a number of 40k players that are NOT this.

Take a deep breath, and don't violate forum rules please.

 Lorek wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Hmm, after the debacle that was AoS I remain to be persuaded that GW can do anything for the better.

AoS may have been a debacle at release, but in its current state a majority of people seem pretty pleased with it. It certainly seems that AoS has a fun and vital energy which current 40k lacks almost entirely. The only people who are truly invested in current 40k are min-maxing tournament tryhards who only care about cheesing their way to wins. A majority of other people are in it mainly for the collecting and hobby side, or are playing 30k and AoS for fun because they don't have a cut-throat, cookie cutter meta where the only thing that matters is winning and the only way to win is outdo your opponents' willingness to be a sheisty cheesemonger.

This may be your experience, but painting every 40k player with this brush is a clear violation of Rule #1. I personally know a number of 40k players that are NOT this.

Take a deep breath, and don't violate forum rules please.

Of course then again, you got those from 30k doing that to 40k and yet seems brushed under the rug.

ERJAK wrote:

nordsturmking wrote:
To me The Gathering Storm feels a bit like End Times. But thanks to the FAQ i am still optimistic.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I played Warhammer Fantasy and the game ended up worse than i'd ever feared it could in AoS and thought people were crazy thinking it'd be as bad as they said and it was worse than that.

Just take this from experience. Have a back-up plan if things hit the crapper. Go to X-wing or something. Don't buy any gathering storm models as it'll be a slap in the face that you paid hundreds just to be competitive only to have all the rules change and become a game you disliked. I still have unfinished stormfiends and a mostly broken vermin lord from when GW switched to AoS. All my in progress Fantasy models remain unbuilt and never will be. Just putting it this way if you're thinking about buying more GW models. DON'T. Wait and see and don't have high hopes so that maybe you'll feel better when GW possibly screws over all of us.

If you want to have a good Warhammer Fantasy experience take a look at Warhammer CE. I really like it. I have played a few AoS games and decided it is not for me. The lack of WS, BS, S and T and the almost non existens of tactic except "do i push this unit in the big pile of CC or not" All this just doesn't appeal to me.

See if you just stopped at 'it's not for me' that would be fine, not everygame appeals to every player, but then you add on the tactics thing and ruin it.

Warhammer Fantasy was LITERALLY 'push big blocks of units in a pile of CC or not' except the answer was always 'not until turn 4 when my magic has obliterated 3/4ths of his army while our big tough melee units stare at each other longingly'. People got 'boredom' and 'tactics' confused a lot in that game.

Not seeing tactics in sigmar just means you suck at sigmar and if you go to even small local events and try that you'll get tabled every game even against narrative armies.

Just as not seeing tactics in Warhammer Fantasy often meant you didn't play, sucked at it or were new. Yeah magic and shooting could be a big deal but Chaff units were a big deal. Positioning was a big deal. Sure if you see a bunch of people play it might be different but seeing tournament play vs normal play was huge. I mean do you guys know about railroading an abomination in Fantasy? An abomination has random movement and you can position a unit (flyers or another fast unit) to its side and just force it to keep going straight every turn and do nothing. I had an enemy do that to me in a tournament with harpies. It was a unit that cost maybe 50 pts making an under-costed almost 250 pts unit do nothing for a whole game and then get shot to death. Same thing worked with frenzy being a double edged sword or the mass of morale checks. In Fantasy morale actually mattered whereas in 40k it's more and more useless. I mean a person could even force an enemy unit to retreat and block their enemy's own charging unit the very next turn. I did this before and the feeling of accomplishment made me feel proud. There's also stuff like forcing 'stupid' (the rule was 'stupidity') units like trolls to just charge a unit, run away from the trolls and then force the trolls out of position so that it eats grass all day because it was only leadership 5 on its own outside of a general's leadership bubble.

---------

We'd be going a bit off topic but i always have to ask where all the named special characters are in AoS. I mean i know it has time to add to it but we had queek, thanquol and boneripper, lord skrolk, throt, ikit claw, deathmaster snitch (or however it was spelled) and many more just for skaven. I just don't know how many character you have. Do sigmarines even have any characters?

Of course AoS has special characters. What kind of a stupid question is that?

How does any of this AoS talk relate to the topic exactly?

 Don Savik wrote:
Of course AoS has special characters. What kind of a stupid question is that?

How does any of this AoS talk relate to the topic exactly?

Think he is more asking are the Old World heros still in AoS or did they die in a fire..

But 40k related not overly

I meant named heroes. I haven't heard any characters mentioned even a little during the time i've overheard AoS but maybe it's just not popular where i am. Also both carried over from Fantasy and created in AoS as well as models for characters. The only character models i've seen for the most part were in Silver Tower. I'll admit that's about the only AoS thing i've ever felt i might wish to play.

Also don't insult as i decided to play nice with you AoS players. I could be a jerk instead as you are being to us.

-------

As far as it relates to the topic it sorta doesn't but i was a little curious. If the 40k universe goes full AoS i'm curious if the characters will be dumped in the waste basket or similar. I mean will Vect and Lady Malys get canned or get murdered fairly soon? Gathering Storm seems to put Vect on a collision course to death with dark eldar possibly not existing soon. I'm sorta fearful of this.

As far as tactics in Warhammer Fantasy goes... holding back a brutal melee unit until after you allowed your other (ranged/magical) troops to weaken the opponent's troops is a tactic. Often a sound one. In modern warfare, artillery is also used in such a manner. The same as using cannon fodder units to lure the enemy into a trap. or to prevent your opponent from hitting one of your more crucial units or characters.
In WH40K the same can be said about charging with a 'meh' unit to soak up overwatch, and then hitting hard with a dedicated close combat unit. Sound tactics.

Which brings me to a fluff sacrifice... (Spoilered for those who haven't read Fall of Cadia and still want to...



Making this example the tie-in towards the topic. I wonder if GW will continue support of such named characters. Sure, they will make the rules available for all models currently in their line, but will any new army lists or army books after the initial launch still mention unique characters who are, by now, killed in ongoing publications which 'move the story forward'? Just because the model is still available? Or will they cull the model line a bit more, maybe making room for a new generation of heroes? (Such as the likes of Greyfax, Cawl, Yvraine, the Yncarne, etc.)

I personally hope that Named Characters are pushed away from Matched play. Personally, I feel like making your own character out of the HQ choices was more fun, since that would make that character you. It will be uniquely you since even if someone takes the same items, you can still model yours different. It gets a little ridiculous when they're so useful that games would appear as if the greatest and most important characters in the setting were teleporting to every battle that even remotely involved them.

It surprises me how the fact GW is a business and therefore makes money surprises people year after year.

"Oh my god they will make new books and miniatures instead of updating everything for free so they can't go on as a business. So evil. I swear they would be just fine selling paints."

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I meant named heroes. I haven't heard any characters mentioned even a little during the time i've overheard AoS but maybe it's just not popular where i am. Also both carried over from Fantasy and created in AoS as well as models for characters. The only character models i've seen for the most part were in Silver Tower. I'll admit that's about the only AoS thing i've ever felt i might wish to play.

Also don't insult as i decided to play nice with you AoS players. I could be a jerk instead as you are being to us.

-------

As far as it relates to the topic it sorta doesn't but i was a little curious. If the 40k universe goes full AoS i'm curious if the characters will be dumped in the waste basket or similar. I mean will Vect and Lady Malys get canned or get murdered fairly soon? Gathering Storm seems to put Vect on a collision course to death with dark eldar possibly not existing soon. I'm sorta fearful of this.

Yeah because AoS players started it alright.

But to put it simply there's actually very few Special Characters being released. If a faction gets one it tends to be just one. Stormcast have The Celestant-Prime, Iron Jawz have Gordrakk, the Fist of Gork, Everchosen has Archaon and those are the ones that have come from newer books (Archaon coming with his new mount beast). There's also that new Overlord character with the top hat.

As for 40k we seem to have some idea that some will be changed like the Decapitator becoming the new Mandrake King and all that.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I meant named heroes. I haven't heard any characters mentioned even a little during the time i've overheard AoS but maybe it's just not popular where i am. Also both carried over from Fantasy and created in AoS as well as models for characters. The only character models i've seen for the most part were in Silver Tower. I'll admit that's about the only AoS thing i've ever felt i might wish to play.

They are there, but they aren't required to be unique. Some did lose their names and became generic, but it's not very common.

When it first launched a few of them had some odd rules, like Settra had a rule that if you knelt with him as your General, you lost the game because Settra does not kneel to anyone.

And then there was the Empire General where you gained bonuses for pretending to ride a horse, and even more if you talked to the horse.

Goofy stuffy, but its no longer there. I guess people complained because toy soldier is Seeruz Biznez.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
As far as it relates to the topic it sorta doesn't but i was a little curious. If the 40k universe goes full AoS i'm curious if the characters will be dumped in the waste basket or similar. I mean will Vect and Lady Malys get canned or get murdered fairly soon? Gathering Storm seems to put Vect on a collision course to death with dark eldar possibly not existing soon. I'm sorta fearful of this.

Considering how much people expect 40K to be Sigmaraized, it is valid to know what they have done as that may affect whatever they call 8th Edition.

 Lord Xcapobl wrote:
As far as tactics in Warhammer Fantasy goes... holding back a brutal melee unit until after you allowed your other (ranged/magical) troops to weaken the opponent's troops is a tactic. Often a sound one. In modern warfare, artillery is also used in such a manner. The same as using cannon fodder units to lure the enemy into a trap. or to prevent your opponent from hitting one of your more crucial units or characters.
In WH40K the same can be said about charging with a 'meh' unit to soak up overwatch, and then hitting hard with a dedicated close combat unit. Sound tactics.

Which brings me to a fluff sacrifice... (Spoilered for those who haven't read Fall of Cadia and still want to...

Spoiler:

Creed escaped Cadia due to Kell intervening, and dying, if I read that correctly.

Making this example the tie-in towards the topic. I wonder if GW will continue support of such named characters. Sure, they will make the rules available for all models currently in their line, but will any new army lists or army books after the initial launch still mention unique characters who are, by now, killed in ongoing publications which 'move the story forward'? Just because the model is still available? Or will they cull the model line a bit more, maybe making room for a new generation of heroes? (Such as the likes of Greyfax, Cawl, Yvraine, the Yncarne, etc.)

Tycho has been dead for decades. He still has rules.

 NivlacSupreme wrote:


Tycho has been dead for decades. He still has rules.

Good point. But of course, he also still has a codex entry and a (fairly outdated) model. And the current codices will be out with the trash.
Another question, then, could be whether or nor they would keep him as a named character, as opposed to a more generic one?

We'd be going a bit off topic but i always have to ask where all the named special characters are in AoS. I mean i know it has time to add to it but we had queek, thanquol and boneripper, lord skrolk, throt, ikit claw, deathmaster snitch (or however it was spelled) and many more just for skaven. I just don't know how many character you have. Do sigmarines even have any characters?

Quite a few of the named WFB special characters have resurfaced in AOS.

Some are unchanged - Nagash,
Mostly unchanged - Neferta, Mannfred, Arkhan,
Some have become true Gods - Alarielle, and apparently Malkeith and his mother as one.

Some are implied to have become Stormcast.

Most of the Chaos Demons are back as they are effectively eternal as long as they have the favour of their patron god.

I didn't buy any new codices after they re-released 7th. This incidentally means that I didn't buy the new Deathwatch OR Traitor Legions books - for my two main forces.

Months later they are to become invalidated and I've saved myself ... let's see.... £20 Traitor Legions +£25 Orks + £35 Space Marines + £25 Deathwatch + £30 Dark Eldar


oh and the 7.1 £30 mini rule book


I've saved £135 worth of books.... just as planned. I think, from my perspective and situation at least, this move towards free rules and cheaper / pick and choose style AoS App style unit information is only a good thing. I'd actually dust off my models again if it's sensible

All codexes gone can be good (IMHO it doesn't make any sense spending a lot of money in books that become obsolete after 4 years) but only if all the rules become free. Not only the basic ones, but all of them.

Otherwise there will always be a series of super expensive battletomes filled with overpowered rules and a bunch of crappy stats available for free.

Just make hordes armies like tyranids, AM or orks worthy and GW can earn even more money than they could do by selling books.

I never bought the books, GW keep changing them every 4 years. I prefer pdf

 Lorek wrote:


This may be your experience, but painting every 40k player with this brush is a clear violation of Rule #1. I personally know a number of 40k players that are NOT this.

Take a deep breath, and don't violate forum rules please.

Sure, but are they totally invested in 7th edition as it is? There's nothing about it they wish were different, especially if they go to events or tournaments? That's kind of what I was getting at, even if I made a poor choice of words. A lot of people regularly play 40k without engaging in cheesemongering antics, but the fact remains that those people usually get stomped when they set foot on the tournament floor or play a game in a local meta that's a little too "enthusiastic". And when that happens to someone who is just trying to have fun and be a good member of the community, I doubt it really makes them excited about the game.

GW just stated in their 8th QA stream that if you've bought old codices within 4 (or was it 8) weeks you can get some sort of refund by contacting them apparently.

Super awesome stuff incoming, including new Faction(s).

8 week window., voucher to the current cost of the bought codex.

Well I am not parting with my limited edition IA:13 any time soon even though FW have stated it will be invalid come 8th.

To me it is a work of art and cracking good read as well.

The prospect of making the core rules free and releasing a Generals Handbook set up with factionwide low cost books actually has me rather pleased and genuinely excited for a GW release for quite some time.

Bit miffed I bought Traitor Legions but hey, you pay your money and takes your chances.

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Well I am not parting with my limited edition IA:13 any time soon even though FW have stated it will be invalid come 8th.

To me it is a work of art and cracking good read as well.

The prospect of making the core rules free and releasing a Generals Handbook set up with factionwide low cost books actually has me rather pleased and genuinely excited for a GW release for quite some time.

Bit miffed I bought Traitor Legions but hey, you pay your money and takes your chances.

You can get a refund for it though, they just announced as much.

Unless I am mistaken the refund is time-barred i.e. if you bought it within a certain period prior to 8th dropping. I bought that bad boy day one release.

If not time-barred GW owe me some serious coin, kerching!

Haha well I'm not sure exactly how it works but here's hoping you they can help you out.

Yep, confirmed in their live faq, codex needs to have been bought 8 weeks from the nearest Saturday from the date of 8th dropping.

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Yep, confirmed in their live faq, codex needs to have been bought 8 weeks from the nearest Saturday from the date of 8th dropping.

They stated it was within 8 weeks of the announcement, not 8 weeks of the edition launch. Basically, go be 8 weeks from Saturday.

Hmm, in which case they are saying buy your codexes now and we will refund it in part or full. If full I will happily pick up one or two just for the fluff.

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Hmm, in which case they are saying buy your codexes now and we will refund it in part or full. If full I will happily pick up one or two just for the fluff.

That's exactly NOT what they're saying...

If you buy now, you get NO refund: you knew the new edition was coming when you bought the book.
If you bought before the new edition was announced, up to 8 weeks before, you can claim a refund, since you couldn't know.

A lot of people seem to be trying to game the system on the codex refunds. Then again, this is the 40k community we're talking about. Loopholes are what we do.

 EnTyme wrote:
A lot of people seem to be trying to game the system on the codex refunds. Then again, this is the 40k community we're talking about. Loopholes are what we do.

That and they want the money to spend on something they can more likely use 6 months from now.

 Charistoph wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
A lot of people seem to be trying to game the system on the codex refunds. Then again, this is the 40k community we're talking about. Loopholes are what we do.

That and they want the money to spend on something they can more likely use 6 months from now.

I was more referring to the people saying. "Well if you really think about what they said, I can go buy a codex today and get a voucher since technically dates after the announcement are still 'within 8 weeks' of the announcement". Also note that all codices are now marked Last Chance to Buy on the web store.

I may well pick up some of the codexes for fluff when they go cheap on ebay.

Let us just hope one of these 'themed armies' isn't a pure riptide force, lead by a new super riptide.

They referred to deathstars as rule loopholes. Why shouldn't we play the game GW has led us on a merry dance for years on end?

 Mr Morden wrote:
I may well pick up some of the codexes for fluff when they go cheap on ebay.

current codexes already going cheap on eBay from about $10-20 a book shipped with $20 being the average. already picked me up the current rules (3 book set) for less then $20

I vote good riddance. It seemed like every time I bought a codex they released a new edition within a 6-8 months.

I'd either complain that my codex was behind(flyers, HP, grav) or they were releasing them too often and I was spending $50 on a book that was reused stats, art, and fluff in the same book.

AOS has Battletombs but I don't have to rely on them to pick up some new models to play test and see if I enjoy using a certain army. I felt like once you get the codex you basically need to work up that army or you wasted what you bought.

Well at least they are giving out refunds to people who recently bought the books!!!

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/04/25/warhammer-40000-unit-profiles/