Government forces and Islamic fundie groups are clashing (again) in the Southern Philippines. The fighting has been going on throughout the area, with particularly nasty clashes in (the predominately Muslim) Marawi City.
Here is a rundown of witness reports compiled by a Philippine anon on a 4chan thread discussing the subject. The reports of fires has been confirmed, but the other stuff, according to him, may be rumor, hysteria, or false.
Update as of 10:47pm (local time)
-AFP are sending more troops in Marawi
- Patients and nurses are safe inside the APMC and the latter are currently on duty.
- Armed men are confirmed to be the Maute group.
- The Maute group together with the Bangsamoro Islamic Freedom Fighters has pledged allegiance to ISIS.
- Firefight ensues with the government troops.
- A policeman and 2 ambulance drivers were killed.
- Homes are being trespassed.
- Women not wearing Hijabs are being taken away.
- AFP received an intel that Abu Sayyaf leader Isnilon Hapilon was with the Maute group.
- Some buildings in Dansalan College were burnt to ashes.
- Most affected areas are Basak Malutlut, Sarimanok, Marinaut, Provincial Jail, Amai Pakpak, Bo. Saber, Sarimanok and most of the key intersections in Marawi.
- Marawi City Jail is on fire.
- Detainees in the City Jail were freed by the group.
- At least 5 gov't troops are now wounded.
- Chapel in Barrio Paypay is on fire.
- The group took away the firetrucks so that the fire can't be put out.
- Marawi City is experiencing total electricity blackout.
- ISIS flags are raised in several areas in the city including hospitals, government establishments, and police cars.
- Gunshots are being heard all over the city again.
- Maute group has left the Amai Pakpak Medical Center.
- Maute recruiting residents to join them.
- AFP issued a 5-hour ultimatum for civilians to leave before they start bombing Marawi again.
- Maute is interrogating civilians. If you can't prove you are a Muslim, they will kidnap you and will be "taken cared of"
- Maute used trucks to block all entry/exit including bridges.
- Police captain killed.
- The group is seizing houses looking for men to recruit.
- Civilians are asked to recite the Shahada. If they can't, theyre killed.
- Some of the teachers in Dansalan College are already dead. Their heads are being displayed on the highway.
Apparently, what kicked this off was an attempt by the government to arrest the suspected leader of a terror cell. And it blew up from there.
EDIT: The entire Mindanao region is currently under martial law. And there is a media blackout, plus requests by the AFP for citizens not to post sightings of troop dispositions on social media.
Some pics have trickled out of the area, supposedly relating to the current flare-up. Mostly of militants in the streets:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Shot of a police vehicle flying an ISIS flag:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Might as well post this. It relates to the recent terrorist activity. And not a bad idea to do:
No. The majority Phillipines government has been fighting local Muslim tribes sine the Spanish. Its where Pershing got his bones and why the US developed the 1911 after fighting with drugged up tribesmen.
Hopefully the Philippines hits down on them hard before they can dig in and start getting too settled.
They've been there for a long time. The Philippines have been a terrorism hotspot since the early 90s to my knowledge (probably longer). The original 9/11 plot was actually planned to be test-run from in Manila, it code name was "Bojinka", and Abu Sayyaf and Jemaah Islamiah both have operated/recruited heavily from the Philippines.
This has been waiting to erupt for a long time there.
No. The majority Phillipines government has been fighting local Muslim tribes sine the Spanish. Its where Pershing got his bones and why the US developed the 1911 after fighting with drugged up tribesmen.
Oh that area. When Pershing found him self needing a man stopper and they had to reissue the older heavier revolvers.
Trump’s call with Duterte, during which he extended an invitation to visit him at the White House, was met with skepticism from some foreign policy analysts and human rights groups. Since taking office in June, Duterte has moved to hedge on the Philippines’ long-standing defense alliance with the United States by establishing closer relations with China. And his administration has overseen a brutal extrajudicial campaign that has resulted in the killings of thousands of suspected drug dealers.
Trump has not spoken out against that strategy, and in their call he praised Duterte for doing an “unbelievable job on the drug problem.”
“Many countries have the problem, we have the problem, but what a great job you are doing and I just wanted to call and tell you that,” Trump said, according to the transcript.
Your post literally makes no sense except for pre-emptive virtue signalling.
EDIT: likely they'll put all the Philippines under martial law. That feels like an excuse. The terrorists are only operating in Mindanao IIRC. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-40024120
Your post literally makes no sense except for pre-emptive virtue signalling.
You must be doing alright to afford all them ten dollar words
I know nothing about the history of the groups in that area. Are they terrorists or are they rebels?
Historically they were tribes that used terror and guerrilla tactics to both maintain independence and kill each other. This latest iteration appears to have hooked in a bit of ISIL love, but are using similar terror tactics to those in the past.
On the flip side, in the past, negotiating with them as tribes worked. Don't know about now.
Your post literally makes no sense except for pre-emptive virtue signalling.
EDIT: likely they'll put all the Philippines under martial law. That feels like an excuse. The terrorists are only operating in Mindanao IIRC.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-40024120
It's a commentary on how people use events to justify pre-existing bias and behavior.
This is tribal in nature, it just picked up religious flavoring this time around. I expect a very heavy handed response, just hoping they keep the civilian casualties low.
ISIS is a global threat precisely because they have capitalized on that habit; they commit acts of terrorism, people discriminate against muslims, which creates more new recruits. It's a foundation of their organization.
Frazzled wrote: Again that has what to with anyone's posts on this thread other than trolling?
ISIS looks to be involved here. Islamic terrorism also ties directly into the discrimination aspect whether we like it or not. To me it seems more like you are bothered about me questioning the legitimacy of that discrimination than anything else, since you are devoting an awful lot of attention to a one-sentence comment. That such a statement immediately stirs up response like this is exactly why I feel it still needs to be brought up.
Frazzled wrote: Again that has what to with anyone's posts on this thread other than trolling?
ISIS looks to be involved here. Islamic terrorism also ties directly into the discrimination aspect whether we like it or not. To me it seems more like you are bothered about me questioning the legitimacy of that discrimination than anything else, since you are devoting an awful lot of attention to a one-sentence comment. That such a statement immediately stirs up response like this is exactly why I feel it still needs to be brought up.
You're not questioning the legitimacy, you're trolling before anyone posted anything. The only response is that I fell for the bait of a troll, but being hopped up on vicoden today I am not as wary as normal.
You're babbling about discrimination, when the Filipino terrorists are literally "cutting off heads and gak" to use an Apocalypse Now reference.
Will just have to ignore your posts the rest of this thread to get it back on track.
Considering that both communist guerillas and Islamic fundamentalist groups have a history of playing with bombs around the country, a nationwide state of emergency might not be a bad idea.
The most recent incidents were earlier this month in Manila at the end of April and earlier this month, in the Quiapo District.
Considering that both communist guerillas and Islamic fundamentalist groups have a history of playing with bombs around the country, a nationwide state of emergency might not be a bad idea.
The most recent incidents were earlier this month in Manila at the end of April and earlier this month, in the Quiapo District.
I understand. Given the predilliction of their current President for extrajudicial killing of drug dealers etc., however I am suspect of the reasoning behind it.
Considering that both communist guerillas and Islamic fundamentalist groups have a history of playing with bombs around the country, a nationwide state of emergency might not be a bad idea.
The most recent incidents were earlier this month in Manila at the end of April and earlier this month, in the Quiapo District.
I understand. Given the predilliction of their current President for extrajudicial killing of drug dealers etc., however I am suspect of the reasoning behind it.
Agreed. The entire country is a mess and has been for a long time. Considering the current President's hard line on policy, I expect the response to be harsh, to put it lightly.
Some more photographs. These look like local militia. Back in the 80's, the Marcos government armed farmers and villagers with surplus World War II weaponry from government armories. And to my understanding, his successors have continued that policy to a lesser degree (hence some of the more modern weapons). Duterte is still popular in rural areas, due to his brutal actions against local drug lords (which have a history of strong arming the peasants).
Considering that both communist guerillas and Islamic fundamentalist groups have a history of playing with bombs around the country, a nationwide state of emergency might not be a bad idea.
The most recent incidents were earlier this month in Manila at the end of April and earlier this month, in the Quiapo District.
I understand. Given the predilliction of their current President for extrajudicial killing of drug dealers etc., however I am suspect of the reasoning behind it.
Basically this. If the leadership was known to be reasonable it would be one thing, but given his history...
Easy E wrote: I wonder how this is impacting the call center outsourcing industry? The Phillipines have been a popular place to off shore recently.
I hadn't heard this, is it a significant portion of the industry? Even if it isn't I imagine if a company has all of their outsourcing there it could be a problem.
Easy E wrote: I wonder how this is impacting the call center outsourcing industry? The Phillipines have been a popular place to off shore recently.
I hadn't heard this, is it a significant portion of the industry? Even if it isn't I imagine if a company has all of their outsourcing there it could be a problem.
It shouldn't be too much in the way of disruption right now. The trouble is concentrated in the south. If I remember right, aside from some tourist spots, the major economic hubs are further north.
But if things drag out, I can see an economic impact on the country.
The Philippines have been an actual case study for lessons learned on fighting a counter insurgency. Maybe the military leaders should read some of David Galula's work, which is based off insurgency of this sort in the Philippines.
Easy E wrote: I wonder how this is impacting the call center outsourcing industry? The Phillipines have been a popular place to off shore recently.
I hadn't heard this, is it a significant portion of the industry? Even if it isn't I imagine if a company has all of their outsourcing there it could be a problem.
It shouldn't be too much in the way of disruption right now. The trouble is concentrated in the south. If I remember right, aside from some tourist spots, the major economic hubs are further north.
But if things drag out, I can see an economic impact on the country.
I worked for someone who has a bigish set up in Philippines, if they start getting shakey, that could hit local economy and hard, there a big money earner and also effect a few multi nationals. Sure there's excess capacity in most call centre systems., or spare desks to fill but not ernough to replace entire out sourcing blocks.
Call centres in the Philippines are a pretty big deal. Looked after a few groups from two different organisations for a number of years. Mostly the thing that got you was the rainy season, where mudslides can take out major roads and staff can't physically get to work. Never had to factor in terrorists before.
feeder wrote: Are they terrorists or are they rebels?
Given the following:
- The Maute group together with the Bangsamoro Islamic Freedom Fighters has pledged allegiance to ISIS. - A policeman and 2 ambulance drivers were killed. - Women not wearing Hijabs are being taken away. - The group took away the firetrucks so that the fire can't be put out. - Maute is interrogating civilians. If you can't prove you are a Muslim, they will kidnap you and will be "taken cared of" - Civilians are asked to recite the Shahada. If they can't, theyre killed.
... I think the distinction has lost any real meaning.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Call centres in the Philippines are a pretty big deal. Looked after a few groups from two different organisations for a number of years. Mostly the thing that got you was the rainy season, where mudslides can take out major roads and staff can't physically get to work. Never had to factor in terrorists before.
feeder wrote: Are they terrorists or are they rebels?
Given the following:
- The Maute group together with the Bangsamoro Islamic Freedom Fighters has pledged allegiance to ISIS.
- A policeman and 2 ambulance drivers were killed.
- Women not wearing Hijabs are being taken away.
- The group took away the firetrucks so that the fire can't be put out.
- Maute is interrogating civilians. If you can't prove you are a Muslim, they will kidnap you and will be "taken cared of"
- Civilians are asked to recite the Shahada. If they can't, theyre killed.
... I think the distinction has lost any real meaning.
[quote/]
At this point we are just dealing with ISIS.
There is no difference. And sadly from there reputation we know how being taken away can end badly.
They are playing from same guide book and doing same brutal things.
Hope they can end them before they have too long yo dig in like in Syria and then the rats a real pain to sog out there holes if they got time to consolidate.
As terrorists stormed a Philippine city, President Rodrigo Duterte expanded his powers to new levels, vowing to become “harsher than Marcos”.
Duterte declared martial law across the southern part of the Philippines after Islamic-State linked militants stormed a city, beheaded a police chief and burned down buildings.
Authorities said more than 40 people were killed in the deadly battle when gunmen from the local terrorist organisations Maute Group and Abu Sayyaf rampaged through Marawi city.
During a visit to Moscow, Duterte said he was cutting short his visit to deal with the crisis, and declared martial law in the province of Mindanao.
The President said the influence of Islamic State remained one of the country’s top security concerns and warned martial law could soon be extended across the Philippines.
It comes after he repeatedly threatened to place the south, the scene of decades-long Muslim separatist uprisings, under martial law.
The violence in Marawi erupted on Tuesday after the army raided the hide-out of Isnilon Hapilon, a commander of the Abu Sayyaf militant group who has pledged allegiance to IS.
He is on Washington’s list of most-wanted terrorists with a $5 million reward for information leading to his capture.
The militants called for reinforcements and around 100 gunmen entered Marawi, a mostly Muslim city of 200,000 people on the southern island of Mindanao, Defence Secretary Delfin Lorenzana said.
Rebels torched buildings, took a priest and his worshippers hostage and sealed off much of the city.
The violence forced thousands to flee and raised fears of growing extremism in the country.
At least 44 people have died in the fighting, including 31 militants and 11 soldiers, officials said. President Rodrigo Duterte said a local police chief was stopped at a militant checkpoint and beheaded, and another policeman was also killed.
Human rights groups have expressed fears that martial law powers could further embolden Duterte, whom they have accused of allowing extrajudicial killings of thousands of people in his crackdown on illegal drugs.
The National Union of Peoples’ Lawyers in Manila told the New York Times it appeared to be a sledgehammer, knee-jerk reaction”.
“The recent incidents in Marawi do not justify the shotgun declaration of martial law,” head of the lawyers’ union Ephraim Cortez said.
“The declaration of martial law should be an option of last resort.”
Human Rights Watch warned Duterte’s declaration of martial law threatened to widen the scope of abuse.
Deputy Asia director at HRW Phelim Kine said while Maute and the Islamist armed group Abu Sayyaf threatened the security of people in parts of Mindanao, martial law was a drastic move.
“Duterte’s martial law threatens military abuses in Mindanao that could rival the murderous ‘drug war’ in urban areas,” Mr Kine said.
“It’s crucial that the country’s security forces abide by international law at all times and hold rights violators to account.
“Martial law is not a free pass for abuse.”
HRW also said expanding the military’s legal authority opened the door to increased human rights violations against civilians, “who have long been targets of military abuses”.
Writing in Forbes, international politics, security and political risk expert Anders Corr said the move was extreme and warned Duterte is currently the biggest threat facing the country today.
Mr Corr, whose company, Corr Analytics, provides political risk analysis to commercial, non-profit and media, said Duterte had several other options available to deal with the militants who were nowhere near as powerful as Duterte made out.
“Duterte is on an authoritarian path,” he wrote.
“He reveres the past dictator of the Philippines, Ferdinand Marcos, who ruled for 21 years and used torture and a brutal martial law to do so. As Duterte insults US presidents Obama and Trump, he openly embraces China and Russia.”
Martial law allows Duterte to use the armed forces to carry out arrests, searches and detentions more rapidly.
The constitution only allows martial law for 60 days in the event of rebellion or invasion.
However Duterte has repeatedly threatened that he is willing to ignore the constitution if he needs to enforce martial law.
He also suggested it could spread even further, sparking fears he may use it to further his hold on power.
“If it would take a year to do it, then we’ll do it. If it’s over within a month, then I’d be happy,” Duterte said in a video posted on Facebook by Mocha Uson, the assistant secretary to the Presidential Communications Operation Office.
“It would not be any different from what President Marcos did. I’d be harsh.”
Mr Lorenzana said that the military will have “control of movement, searches and arrest of detained people”.
It also allows the military to supersede civilian authorities in enforcing the law and permits military courts to try civilians when civil courts are unable to function.
The move would enforce order and effectively allow the detention of people without charges.
Duterte warned he may expand martial law nationwide, which could prove a nightmare for many in the Philippines who lived through the rule of Ferdinand Marcos.
Marcos declared martial law in 1972 and used it to maintain power for more than a decade in which widespread human rights abuses occurred.
Marcos was ousted in a peaceful revolution in 1986 and died in exile three years later.
The president of the Philippines has come under fire for joking about rape in a speech to soldiers.
While speaking at a military camp after imposing martial law across the south of the country, he said they were allowed to rape up to three women.
This was the second rape joke Rodrigo Duterte has been condemned for making since announcing his candidacy.
A human rights group said his comment was "sickening" and Chelsea Clinton tweeted that rape was never funny.
Mr Duterte's words were: "I will be imprisoned for you. If you rape three (women), I will say that I did it. But if you marry four, son of a whore you will be beaten up."
Chelsea Clinton, the daughter of former president Bill Clinton and 2016 presidential candidate Hillary Clinton, wrote on Twitter that Mr Duterte was "a murderous thug with no regard for human rights" and that "rape is never a joke".
Phelim Kine of Human Rights Watch said the president's comment was "a sickening attempt at humour" that sent soldiers a signal they could commit rights abuses while enforcing martial law.
He said: "Duterte's pro-rape comments only confirm some of the worst fears of human rights activists that the Duterte government will not just turn a blind eye to possible military abuses in Mindanao, but may actively encourage them."
And a women's political party in the country, Gabriela, said in a statement: "Rape is not a joke. Martial law and the heightened vulnerability to military abuse that it brings to women and children are not a joke either."
Martial law was imposed last week on Mindanao in the south of the Philippines, where Muslim separatists and other rebels are fighting the army.
Last year, Mr Duterte joked about a 1989 rape and murder of an Australian missionary. He said that as mayor of the town where it happened, he should have been "first in line".
His spokesman Ernesto Abella said on Saturday that Mr Duterte was using "heightened bravado", giving "his full support to the men and women in uniform", and "taking complete responsibility for their actions".
As terrorists stormed a Philippine city, President Rodrigo Duterte expanded his powers to new levels, vowing to become “harsher than Marcos”.
Duterte declared martial law across the southern part of the Philippines after Islamic-State linked militants stormed a city, beheaded a police chief and burned down buildings.
Authorities said more than 40 people were killed in the deadly battle when gunmen from the local terrorist organisations Maute Group and Abu Sayyaf rampaged through Marawi city.
During a visit to Moscow, Duterte said he was cutting short his visit to deal with the crisis, and declared martial law in the province of Mindanao.
The President said the influence of Islamic State remained one of the country’s top security concerns and warned martial law could soon be extended across the Philippines.
It comes after he repeatedly threatened to place the south, the scene of decades-long Muslim separatist uprisings, under martial law.
The violence in Marawi erupted on Tuesday after the army raided the hide-out of Isnilon Hapilon, a commander of the Abu Sayyaf militant group who has pledged allegiance to IS.
He is on Washington’s list of most-wanted terrorists with a $5 million reward for information leading to his capture.
The militants called for reinforcements and around 100 gunmen entered Marawi, a mostly Muslim city of 200,000 people on the southern island of Mindanao, Defence Secretary Delfin Lorenzana said.
Rebels torched buildings, took a priest and his worshippers hostage and sealed off much of the city.
The violence forced thousands to flee and raised fears of growing extremism in the country.
At least 44 people have died in the fighting, including 31 militants and 11 soldiers, officials said. President Rodrigo Duterte said a local police chief was stopped at a militant checkpoint and beheaded, and another policeman was also killed.
Human rights groups have expressed fears that martial law powers could further embolden Duterte, whom they have accused of allowing extrajudicial killings of thousands of people in his crackdown on illegal drugs.
The National Union of Peoples’ Lawyers in Manila told the New York Times it appeared to be a sledgehammer, knee-jerk reaction”.
“The recent incidents in Marawi do not justify the shotgun declaration of martial law,” head of the lawyers’ union Ephraim Cortez said.
“The declaration of martial law should be an option of last resort.”
Human Rights Watch warned Duterte’s declaration of martial law threatened to widen the scope of abuse.
Deputy Asia director at HRW Phelim Kine said while Maute and the Islamist armed group Abu Sayyaf threatened the security of people in parts of Mindanao, martial law was a drastic move.
“Duterte’s martial law threatens military abuses in Mindanao that could rival the murderous ‘drug war’ in urban areas,” Mr Kine said.
“It’s crucial that the country’s security forces abide by international law at all times and hold rights violators to account.
“Martial law is not a free pass for abuse.”
HRW also said expanding the military’s legal authority opened the door to increased human rights violations against civilians, “who have long been targets of military abuses”.
Writing in Forbes, international politics, security and political risk expert Anders Corr said the move was extreme and warned Duterte is currently the biggest threat facing the country today.
Mr Corr, whose company, Corr Analytics, provides political risk analysis to commercial, non-profit and media, said Duterte had several other options available to deal with the militants who were nowhere near as powerful as Duterte made out.
“Duterte is on an authoritarian path,” he wrote.
“He reveres the past dictator of the Philippines, Ferdinand Marcos, who ruled for 21 years and used torture and a brutal martial law to do so. As Duterte insults US presidents Obama and Trump, he openly embraces China and Russia.”
Martial law allows Duterte to use the armed forces to carry out arrests, searches and detentions more rapidly.
The constitution only allows martial law for 60 days in the event of rebellion or invasion.
However Duterte has repeatedly threatened that he is willing to ignore the constitution if he needs to enforce martial law.
He also suggested it could spread even further, sparking fears he may use it to further his hold on power.
“If it would take a year to do it, then we’ll do it. If it’s over within a month, then I’d be happy,” Duterte said in a video posted on Facebook by Mocha Uson, the assistant secretary to the Presidential Communications Operation Office.
“It would not be any different from what President Marcos did. I’d be harsh.”
Mr Lorenzana said that the military will have “control of movement, searches and arrest of detained people”.
It also allows the military to supersede civilian authorities in enforcing the law and permits military courts to try civilians when civil courts are unable to function.
The move would enforce order and effectively allow the detention of people without charges.
Duterte warned he may expand martial law nationwide, which could prove a nightmare for many in the Philippines who lived through the rule of Ferdinand Marcos.
Marcos declared martial law in 1972 and used it to maintain power for more than a decade in which widespread human rights abuses occurred.
Marcos was ousted in a peaceful revolution in 1986 and died in exile three years later.
The president of the Philippines has come under fire for joking about rape in a speech to soldiers.
While speaking at a military camp after imposing martial law across the south of the country, he said they were allowed to rape up to three women.
This was the second rape joke Rodrigo Duterte has been condemned for making since announcing his candidacy.
A human rights group said his comment was "sickening" and Chelsea Clinton tweeted that rape was never funny.
Mr Duterte's words were: "I will be imprisoned for you. If you rape three (women), I will say that I did it. But if you marry four, son of a whore you will be beaten up."
Chelsea Clinton, the daughter of former president Bill Clinton and 2016 presidential candidate Hillary Clinton, wrote on Twitter that Mr Duterte was "a murderous thug with no regard for human rights" and that "rape is never a joke".
Phelim Kine of Human Rights Watch said the president's comment was "a sickening attempt at humour" that sent soldiers a signal they could commit rights abuses while enforcing martial law.
He said: "Duterte's pro-rape comments only confirm some of the worst fears of human rights activists that the Duterte government will not just turn a blind eye to possible military abuses in Mindanao, but may actively encourage them."
And a women's political party in the country, Gabriela, said in a statement: "Rape is not a joke. Martial law and the heightened vulnerability to military abuse that it brings to women and children are not a joke either."
Martial law was imposed last week on Mindanao in the south of the Philippines, where Muslim separatists and other rebels are fighting the army.
Last year, Mr Duterte joked about a 1989 rape and murder of an Australian missionary. He said that as mayor of the town where it happened, he should have been "first in line".
His spokesman Ernesto Abella said on Saturday that Mr Duterte was using "heightened bravado", giving "his full support to the men and women in uniform", and "taking complete responsibility for their actions".
Ah, it's Godzilla vs King Gihdorah in the Philippines. Whoever wins, we Lose.
As terrorists stormed a Philippine city, President Rodrigo Duterte expanded his powers to new levels, vowing to become “harsher than Marcos”.
Duterte declared martial law across the southern part of the Philippines after Islamic-State linked militants stormed a city, beheaded a police chief and burned down buildings.
Authorities said more than 40 people were killed in the deadly battle when gunmen from the local terrorist organisations Maute Group and Abu Sayyaf rampaged through Marawi city.
During a visit to Moscow, Duterte said he was cutting short his visit to deal with the crisis, and declared martial law in the province of Mindanao.
The President said the influence of Islamic State remained one of the country’s top security concerns and warned martial law could soon be extended across the Philippines.
It comes after he repeatedly threatened to place the south, the scene of decades-long Muslim separatist uprisings, under martial law.
The violence in Marawi erupted on Tuesday after the army raided the hide-out of Isnilon Hapilon, a commander of the Abu Sayyaf militant group who has pledged allegiance to IS.
He is on Washington’s list of most-wanted terrorists with a $5 million reward for information leading to his capture.
The militants called for reinforcements and around 100 gunmen entered Marawi, a mostly Muslim city of 200,000 people on the southern island of Mindanao, Defence Secretary Delfin Lorenzana said.
Rebels torched buildings, took a priest and his worshippers hostage and sealed off much of the city.
The violence forced thousands to flee and raised fears of growing extremism in the country.
At least 44 people have died in the fighting, including 31 militants and 11 soldiers, officials said. President Rodrigo Duterte said a local police chief was stopped at a militant checkpoint and beheaded, and another policeman was also killed.
Human rights groups have expressed fears that martial law powers could further embolden Duterte, whom they have accused of allowing extrajudicial killings of thousands of people in his crackdown on illegal drugs.
The National Union of Peoples’ Lawyers in Manila told the New York Times it appeared to be a sledgehammer, knee-jerk reaction”.
“The recent incidents in Marawi do not justify the shotgun declaration of martial law,” head of the lawyers’ union Ephraim Cortez said.
“The declaration of martial law should be an option of last resort.”
Human Rights Watch warned Duterte’s declaration of martial law threatened to widen the scope of abuse.
Deputy Asia director at HRW Phelim Kine said while Maute and the Islamist armed group Abu Sayyaf threatened the security of people in parts of Mindanao, martial law was a drastic move.
“Duterte’s martial law threatens military abuses in Mindanao that could rival the murderous ‘drug war’ in urban areas,” Mr Kine said.
“It’s crucial that the country’s security forces abide by international law at all times and hold rights violators to account.
“Martial law is not a free pass for abuse.”
HRW also said expanding the military’s legal authority opened the door to increased human rights violations against civilians, “who have long been targets of military abuses”.
Writing in Forbes, international politics, security and political risk expert Anders Corr said the move was extreme and warned Duterte is currently the biggest threat facing the country today.
Mr Corr, whose company, Corr Analytics, provides political risk analysis to commercial, non-profit and media, said Duterte had several other options available to deal with the militants who were nowhere near as powerful as Duterte made out.
“Duterte is on an authoritarian path,” he wrote.
“He reveres the past dictator of the Philippines, Ferdinand Marcos, who ruled for 21 years and used torture and a brutal martial law to do so. As Duterte insults US presidents Obama and Trump, he openly embraces China and Russia.”
Martial law allows Duterte to use the armed forces to carry out arrests, searches and detentions more rapidly.
The constitution only allows martial law for 60 days in the event of rebellion or invasion.
However Duterte has repeatedly threatened that he is willing to ignore the constitution if he needs to enforce martial law.
He also suggested it could spread even further, sparking fears he may use it to further his hold on power.
“If it would take a year to do it, then we’ll do it. If it’s over within a month, then I’d be happy,” Duterte said in a video posted on Facebook by Mocha Uson, the assistant secretary to the Presidential Communications Operation Office.
“It would not be any different from what President Marcos did. I’d be harsh.”
Mr Lorenzana said that the military will have “control of movement, searches and arrest of detained people”.
It also allows the military to supersede civilian authorities in enforcing the law and permits military courts to try civilians when civil courts are unable to function.
The move would enforce order and effectively allow the detention of people without charges.
Duterte warned he may expand martial law nationwide, which could prove a nightmare for many in the Philippines who lived through the rule of Ferdinand Marcos.
Marcos declared martial law in 1972 and used it to maintain power for more than a decade in which widespread human rights abuses occurred.
Marcos was ousted in a peaceful revolution in 1986 and died in exile three years later.
The president of the Philippines has come under fire for joking about rape in a speech to soldiers.
While speaking at a military camp after imposing martial law across the south of the country, he said they were allowed to rape up to three women.
This was the second rape joke Rodrigo Duterte has been condemned for making since announcing his candidacy.
A human rights group said his comment was "sickening" and Chelsea Clinton tweeted that rape was never funny.
Mr Duterte's words were: "I will be imprisoned for you. If you rape three (women), I will say that I did it. But if you marry four, son of a whore you will be beaten up."
Chelsea Clinton, the daughter of former president Bill Clinton and 2016 presidential candidate Hillary Clinton, wrote on Twitter that Mr Duterte was "a murderous thug with no regard for human rights" and that "rape is never a joke".
Phelim Kine of Human Rights Watch said the president's comment was "a sickening attempt at humour" that sent soldiers a signal they could commit rights abuses while enforcing martial law.
He said: "Duterte's pro-rape comments only confirm some of the worst fears of human rights activists that the Duterte government will not just turn a blind eye to possible military abuses in Mindanao, but may actively encourage them."
And a women's political party in the country, Gabriela, said in a statement: "Rape is not a joke. Martial law and the heightened vulnerability to military abuse that it brings to women and children are not a joke either."
Martial law was imposed last week on Mindanao in the south of the Philippines, where Muslim separatists and other rebels are fighting the army.
Last year, Mr Duterte joked about a 1989 rape and murder of an Australian missionary. He said that as mayor of the town where it happened, he should have been "first in line".
His spokesman Ernesto Abella said on Saturday that Mr Duterte was using "heightened bravado", giving "his full support to the men and women in uniform", and "taking complete responsibility for their actions".
Ah, it's Godzilla vs King Gihdorah in the Philippines. Whoever wins, we Lose.
Much as the president is not exactly nice n western friendly.
Its him or let a bunch of behading lunitics get a regional foot hold...
Nope. They cannot be allowed to gain a infrastructure, and eventual cash flow etc.
NinthMusketeer wrote: While hardly desirable I would lean heavily towards maintaining the current government as the better (or perhaps "less bad" is more accurate) outcome.
One is less likely to mount attacks on anyone around them.
The president is not nice, but as we learnt, borders and such are no barriers to Islamic states desire to build a caliphate of brutality.
Easy E wrote: Or we could do what you usually want us to do Frazzled, Nothing.
Is this intance different?
I am not advocating we do anything different. I am saying that just because someone doesn't like who they voted for well tough gak. Its still a democracy vs. a group that is cutting off people's heads and gak.
Obviously the civilians caught in the middle aren't the problem here.
Duterte's running a country where you can get executed for smoking a joint, or for being a political opponent or inconvenient journalist who can have a joint planted on their corpse. He would have shot The Dude in the back of the head. He's actually a pretty big proponent for the use of violence and fear to achieve political goals. I will never understand the amount of people willing to look the other way for this guy.
The popular Philippine tourist site Resorts World Manila was on lockdown after reports of gunfire and explosions at the sprawling complex.
Hundreds of guests and employees rushed out of one of the hotels after a masked gunman on the second floor began firing at guests, hotel employees fleeing the scene told CNN Philippines.
Heavily-armed SWAT officers wearing bulletproof vests and body armor descended on the scene, Camille Abadicio of CNN Philippines said. Video showed smoke coming from the upper floors of buildings.
Emergency responders tend to a victim Friday at the Resorts World Manila.
Jay Dones, a witness on the scene, said the incident started around midnight Thursday (noon ET) and that some employees said the gunmen fired shots in the air.
"I spoke with some of the employees earlier and many of them say they saw at least two, two suspects, armed with long firearms wearing all black." Dones said. "One of them was carrying a bottle. One of the employees told me that the suspect began pouring the contents of the bottle on one of the tables and lit it on fire."
Tikos Low said he was in the resort's casino, along with a few hundred other people, when the attack began. Low said he heard what sounded like an explosion.
"I could smell some kind of smoke that came from an explosive device," he said.
Several hours later, witnesses on the scene said the shooting had stopped. No one has claimed responsibility for the attack.
It was not immediately clear how many people may have been injured or killed in the attack.
The Philippines Red Cross tweeted that it had transported three people from the resort to hospitals.
Dones said emergency personnel said they had treated people for smoke inhalation and bruises, but not for gunshot wounds.
All terminals at Ninoy Aquino International Airport were placed on lockdown because of the attack, according to Robert Echano with airport operations. The airport is about a mile away from the resort.
Resort Chief Operating Officer Stephen Reilly confirmed shots were fired, but did not give details on how many gunmen might be inside.
"We are still investigating the situation," Reilly said in a statement. "We are searching the area as much as we can to make sure the building is clear."
In Quezon City, one of the municipalities in metro Manila, Police District Director Guillermo Eleazar ordered all 12 police stations in the city to set up checkpoints and to maximize police visibility. All mobile patrol units and tactical motorized units of QCPD have been deployed to secure the city.
Eleazar also called on the public to remain calm and to refrain from spreading unverified information and to be vigilant at all times.
Resorts World Manila, also known as RWM, is a resort complex in Newport City, a residential and commercial center in metropolitan Manila.
The sprawling complex has an array of hotels, restaurants and bars. Tourists flock to the complex for its casino, cinema and stores, which include several Western retailers such as Hugo Boss, Lacoste and Kate Spade.
The complex, which is described on RWM's website as "the first and largest integrated resort in the Philippines," is across from Ninoy Aquino International Airport.
Shortly after the incident began, the US State Department warned citizens to avoid the area.
The Philippines has been grappling with incidents of terrorism, especially on the southern island of Mindanao. There, in the city of Marawi, government forces have been battling ISIS-linked militants for control of the city.
The battle for Marawi, a largely Muslim city, has displaced at least 70,000 residents and left 140 people dead. The terrorist siege began last week, just as Muslims worldwide started to mark the holy month of Ramadan.
Philippines President Rodrigo Duterte declared martial law over the island of Mindanao in light of the crisis. Duterte also suggested he might extend martial law through year's end or impose it nationwide, alarming critics.
It's political terrorists versus religious terrorists.
Sit back and watch the fur fly! Marvel as Duterte hacks the hands and heads off children, while ISIS follows it up with a hotel bombing and a poison gas attack.
Welcome to the replacement for Ringling Bros and Barnum & Bailey. Three Ring Circus of Dearth
From what I have seen and its admittedly not much, the MNLF havent really come out in this one, but I had heard they are going after the Abu Sayyaf Group. The MNLF are part of an overall Islamic govt for the Autonomous Region of Muslim Mindanao and are not too keen on smaller groups upsetting things. The Abu Sayyaf have mostly been a criminal gang and not particularly "Islamic" since Janjalani's death. ISIS is likely just a cover and maybe a little extra resources for smaller groups. The MNLF could be decisive in the govt's favor if they do enter the fight.
It's political terrorists versus religious terrorists.
Sit back and watch the fur fly! Marvel as Duterte hacks the hands and heads off children, while ISIS follows it up with a hotel bombing and a poison gas attack.
Welcome to the replacement for Ringling Bros and Barnum & Bailey. Three Ring Circus of Dearth
You know how US likes weapons testing...
Desert testing been covered, ideal time for jungle/hot climate weapons training and experience.
I'll just throw in my two cents and say that they're both in the wrong: One stands as a cruel result of United States political intervention and capitalist exploitation, while the other serves as an extreme reaction to the oppression present in that aforementioned climate. Draws alarming parallels to cold-war era Latin America and the Middle East.
It's political terrorists versus religious terrorists.
Sit back and watch the fur fly! Marvel as Duterte hacks the hands and heads off children, while ISIS follows it up with a hotel bombing and a poison gas attack.
Welcome to the replacement for Ringling Bros and Barnum & Bailey. Three Ring Circus of Dearth
You know how US likes weapons testing...
Desert testing been covered, ideal time for jungle/hot climate weapons training and experience.
Oh and yeah.
Those old gubs work perfectly fine and are battle proven and tested weapon systems globally.
That BAR is a solid but of kit throwing out heavy 7mm+ full battle rifle ammmo.
Thompson has close ranges but if you hit someone full auto with .45 ACP that person will be very dead
Aetare wrote: I'll just throw in my two cents and say that they're both in the wrong: One stands as a cruel result of United States political intervention and capitalist exploitation, while the other serves as an extreme reaction to the oppression present in that aforementioned climate. Draws alarming parallels to cold-war era Latin America and the Middle East.
We all agree they are both in the wrong, there is simply some discussion on if it's worth siding with the government as the lesser evil.
Frazzled wrote: I am not advocating we do anything different. I am saying that just because someone doesn't like who they voted for well tough gak. Its still a democracy vs. a group that is cutting off people's heads and gak.
I'm not gonna try and make an argument about ISIS vs Duterte, because the hell if I know to be honest*. But I will comment on your argument that democracy is just about who won the election. That is arguing for the rule of the mob, and it's a terrible way to do things. Democracy also includes the rule of law, that even people elected to the highest positions of power are still bounded by legal restrictions and are still accountable to judicial and legislative processes.
*Duterte is dangerous because he has a large share of the electorate behind him, in support of his brutal policies. ISIS are dangerous because they don't care about winning support and that makes them capable of anything. Hell if I can figure out which of those two things is scarier.
I'm not gonna try and make an argument about ISIS vs Duterte, because the hell if I know to be honest*
Really? Wow.
Clearly you missed this part:
Sebs:
*Duterte is dangerous because he has a large share of the electorate behind him, in support of his brutal policies. ISIS are dangerous because they don't care about winning support and that makes them capable of anything. Hell if I can figure out which of those two things is scarier.
I'm not gonna try and make an argument about ISIS vs Duterte, because the hell if I know to be honest*
Really? Wow.
Clearly you missed this part:
Sebs:
*Duterte is dangerous because he has a large share of the electorate behind him, in support of his brutal policies. ISIS are dangerous because they don't care about winning support and that makes them capable of anything. Hell if I can figure out which of those two things is scarier.
His popularity could help him rally the farmers and such in earlier pics, and well, they ain't lightly armed with some heavy fire power like a BAR with a heavy calibre punch, full battle rifle calibre guns and Thompsons which while old might be a nasty surprise in a street fight.
If you got groups like that behind you, that's a powerful advantage to have while untrained, alot of militia grade fighters handy alongside military.
That night away his advantage against Islamic state.
I'm not gonna try and make an argument about ISIS vs Duterte, because the hell if I know to be honest*
Really? Wow.
Clearly you missed this part:
Sebs:
*Duterte is dangerous because he has a large share of the electorate behind him, in support of his brutal policies. ISIS are dangerous because they don't care about winning support and that makes them capable of anything. Hell if I can figure out which of those two things is scarier.
I didn't miss it, its just asininely stupid and borderline racist. "The little peon 3rd world country elects a man I disagree with, so they're no better than ISIL." Thats a pretty big you to the Filipino people who are tired of poverty and druggie warlords, controlling the countryside. Now they have to deal with these wackjobs, which the majority Mindanao Muslims can't deal with-again cutting of heads and gak. But hey they're no better than ISIL.
I'm not gonna try and make an argument about ISIS vs Duterte, because the hell if I know to be honest*
Really? Wow.
Clearly you missed this part:
Sebs:
*Duterte is dangerous because he has a large share of the electorate behind him, in support of his brutal policies. ISIS are dangerous because they don't care about winning support and that makes them capable of anything. Hell if I can figure out which of those two things is scarier.
I didn't miss it, its just asininely stupid and borderline racist. "The little peon 3rd world country elects a man I disagree with, so they're no better than ISIL." Thats a pretty big you to the Filipino people who are tired of poverty and druggie warlords, controlling the countryside. Now they have to deal with these wackjobs, which the majority Mindanao Muslims can't deal with-again cutting of heads and gak. But hey they're no better than ISIL.
He disagrees with the man because of the motorcycle death squads and the extrajudicial murder.
The drug lords are bad. The religious extremists are bad. The government-sponsored murders are bad. Executing someone with a sword is not inherently worse than executing someone with a drive-by. These are all murderers.
Frazzled has a point. Is all wonderfull in western land, but theres parts of the world that don't follow our rules and one can argue aren't in the same "historic period" as us.
We can't expect from them the same ethics and morals as us. Obviously, I'm not endorsing what they do. But I can understand why they do it.
Galas wrote: Frazzled has a point. Is all wonderfull in western land, but theres parts of the world that don't follow our rules and one can argue aren't in the same "historic period" as us.
We can't expect from them the same ethics and morals as us. Obviously, I'm not endorsing what they do. But I can understand why they do it.
This is effectively no different than if Brazil or Mexico suddenly were dealing with ISIL. Evidently, nonWestern democracies have to match a certain standard for some before they are better than ISIL. Good thing this standard wasn't applied to Australia, or the US, or France, or the UK.
Galas wrote: Frazzled has a point. Is all wonderfull in western land, but theres parts of the world that don't follow our rules and one can argue aren't in the same "historic period" as us.
We can't expect from them the same ethics and morals as us. Obviously, I'm not endorsing what they do. But I can understand why they do it.
This is effectively no different than if Brazil or Mexico suddenly were dealing with ISIL. Evidently, nonWestern democracies have to match a certain standard for some before they are better than ISIL. Good thing this standard wasn't applied to Australia, or the US, or France, or the UK.
Yeah, the standard is "don't allow extrajuridical killings". It's the foundation of modern civilization.
Galas wrote: Frazzled has a point. Is all wonderfull in western land, but theres parts of the world that don't follow our rules and one can argue aren't in the same "historic period" as us.
We can't expect from them the same ethics and morals as us. Obviously, I'm not endorsing what they do. But I can understand why they do it.
This is effectively no different than if Brazil or Mexico suddenly were dealing with ISIL. Evidently, nonWestern democracies have to match a certain standard for some before they are better than ISIL. Good thing this standard wasn't applied to Australia, or the US, or France, or the UK.
large numbers of alleged extrajudicial killings amongst the civilian population by state forces, long precedging and completely unrelated to this latest terrorism flareup, with body counts orders of magnitude larger than anything the IS afilliate has inflicted, usually will illicit strong reactions.
Galas wrote: Frazzled has a point. Is all wonderfull in western land, but theres parts of the world that don't follow our rules and one can argue aren't in the same "historic period" as us.
We can't expect from them the same ethics and morals as us. Obviously, I'm not endorsing what they do. But I can understand why they do it.
This is effectively no different than if Brazil or Mexico suddenly were dealing with ISIL. Evidently, nonWestern democracies have to match a certain standard for some before they are better than ISIL. Good thing this standard wasn't applied to Australia, or the US, or France, or the UK.
Yeah, the standard is "don't allow extrajuridical killings". It's the foundation of modern civilization.
Thats pretty high and mighty from an isolated country that doesn't have ISIL, drug cartels, or cat lovers to deal with. Very few democracies meet that standard. Canada doesn't. The UK doesn't. The US doesn't. Liechtenstein does but we all know thats just a cover for their nefarious activities.
Galas wrote: Frazzled has a point. Is all wonderfull in western land, but theres parts of the world that don't follow our rules and one can argue aren't in the same "historic period" as us.
We can't expect from them the same ethics and morals as us. Obviously, I'm not endorsing what they do. But I can understand why they do it.
I'm all for cultural reativity, but the government is breaking it's own laws that previous elected representatives put in place. We don't have to decide if it's wrong to perform these actions because they already did. Also, what Seb stated is not at all what Fraz claimed he stated. I'm inclined to believe that Frazz knows that and is (successfully) deflecting the part where Seb completely overturned his argument.
Galas wrote: Frazzled has a point. Is all wonderfull in western land, but theres parts of the world that don't follow our rules and one can argue aren't in the same "historic period" as us.
We can't expect from them the same ethics and morals as us. Obviously, I'm not endorsing what they do. But I can understand why they do it.
I'm all for cultural reativity, but the government is breaking it's own laws that previous elected representatives put in place. We don't have to decide if it's wrong to perform these actions because they already did. Also, what Seb stated is not at all what Fraz claimed he stated. I'm inclined to believe that Frazz knows that and is (successfully) deflecting the part where Seb completely overturned his argument.
Sebster stated he wasn't sure which is worse. Thats directly comparing one of the worst terrorist entities in the last 100 years with an elected government. Does Dutarte suck? Potentially. Comparing the Filipino ELECTED government to ISIL? Wow.
Dutarte goes away when his time expires. When does ISIL go away? oh yea, after you kill them all.
After all, following this logic, the US which has turned extrajudicial killings into a high tech video game, would be no better than ISIL. Thats patently false and offensive.
Galas wrote: Frazzled has a point. Is all wonderfull in western land, but theres parts of the world that don't follow our rules and one can argue aren't in the same "historic period" as us.
We can't expect from them the same ethics and morals as us. Obviously, I'm not endorsing what they do. But I can understand why they do it.
I'm all for cultural reativity, but the government is breaking it's own laws that previous elected representatives put in place. We don't have to decide if it's wrong to perform these actions because they already did. Also, what Seb stated is not at all what Fraz claimed he stated. I'm inclined to believe that Frazz knows that and is (successfully) deflecting the part where Seb completely overturned his argument.
Sebster stated he wasn't sure which is worse. Thats directly comparing one of the worst terrorist entities in the last 100 years with an elected government. Does Dutarte suck? Potentially.
Comparing the Filipino ELECTED government to ISIL? Wow.
Dutarte goes away when his time expires. When does ISIL go away? oh yea, after you kill them all.
After all, following this logic, the US which has turned extrajudicial killings into a high tech video game, would be no better than ISIL. Thats patently false and offensive.
Much as he ain't nice. And what he done is not. He is however the elected president and is acting in the defense of his people against them.
ISIS is a cancer on mankind that needs to be driven into the dust with all due speed.
Galas wrote: Frazzled has a point. Is all wonderfull in western land, but theres parts of the world that don't follow our rules and one can argue aren't in the same "historic period" as us.
We can't expect from them the same ethics and morals as us. Obviously, I'm not endorsing what they do. But I can understand why they do it.
I'm all for cultural reativity, but the government is breaking it's own laws that previous elected representatives put in place. We don't have to decide if it's wrong to perform these actions because they already did. Also, what Seb stated is not at all what Fraz claimed he stated. I'm inclined to believe that Frazz knows that and is (successfully) deflecting the part where Seb completely overturned his argument.
Sebster stated he wasn't sure which is worse. Thats directly comparing one of the worst terrorist entities in the last 100 years with an elected government. Does Dutarte suck? Potentially.
Comparing the Filipino ELECTED government to ISIL? Wow.
Looking at the bodycount in the nation, well, you have a lot more to fear from the elected government and its security forces than ISIL.
Dutarte goes away when his time expires. When does ISIL go away? oh yea, after you kill them all.
That's a big *maybe* there, leaders with hands in large numbers of killings dont tend to leave office peacefully (at least not for anything but higher positions), as has been seen before in the Philippines.
After all, following this logic, the US which has turned extrajudicial killings into a high tech video game, would be no better than ISIL. Thats patently false and offensive.
The US has faced much (and deserved) criticism for it, but also isnt doing it to its own people (barring a couple notable examples that have earned much ire).
And, in many parts of the world and the eyes of many, the US isnt any different from ISIL. That's not an opinion I hold personally, but is not by any means a viewpoint that is unheard of around the world.
“Looking at the bodycount in the nation, well, you have a lot more to fear from the elected government and its security forces than ISIL.”
If you are a drug dealer yes. Mexico is doing the same. Are they no worse than ISIL?
“That's a big *maybe* there, leaders with hands in large numbers of killings dont tend to leave office peacefully (at least not for anything but higher positions), as has been seen before in the Philippines. “
Agreed, however, that argument can be made about any elected politician, anywhere, at any time. Isn’t that the Democrat’s fear about Trump? As Erdogan has taught us, no democracy is more than one step away. Again, it appears we limit our criticism to “those people” however.
“The US has faced much (and deserved) criticism for it, but also isnt doing it to its own people (barring a couple notable examples that have earned much ire).”
BLM would like to politely disagree with you on that.
#nolivesmatter
“And, in many parts of the world and the eyes of many, the US isnt any different from ISIL.”
To paraphrase the immortal bard: the bombings will continue until morale improves!
Is obvious that Dutarte, in his "anti drug war" has play the typical trick of killing political oppositors or reporters that he don't like for being crytical to his regime.
I don't think anybody is defending that. But personally, I think that unstable countrys can't be expected to have a western peacefull society.
Is what they should try to be, but Indonesia and Afrika aren't Europe or North America.
Only if we assume theyre all drug dealers, and assuming large numbers of people who either were just in the wrong place at the wrong time, or have nothing to do with dealing drugs arent being killed under such cover, or that "drug dealer" isnt just a convenient excuse to knock off a pesky journalist or or any number of other such things? Such appears to have been the case in a great many of these killings.
Mexico is doing the same. Are they no worse than ISIL?
Mexico gets tons of flak for it (and for failing to protect people from cartel violence too) and rightfully so, but it's also not something driven publicly in the same.way by Mexico's president, and Mexican security forces are only racking up bodycounts at about 20% the annual rate the Philippines are.
Agreed, however, that argument can be made about any elected politician, anywhere, at any time. Isn’t that the Democrat’s fear about Trump? As Erdogan has taught us, no democracy is more than one step away. Again, it appears we limit our criticism to “those people” however.
In some ways, sure, but either way, leaders that directly endorse and engage in this sort of thing dont tend to leave power peacefully or on time.
BLM would like to politely disagree with you on that.
I'm sure they would, and in some instances they have a point and that is a matter that is being taken increasingly seriously and police/public interactions are undergoing intense scrutiny and review these days as a result.
Galas wrote: Is obvious that Dutarte, in his "anti drug war" has play the typical trick of killing political oppositors or reporters that he don't like for being crytical to his regime.
I don't think anybody is defending that. But personally, I think that unstable countrys can't be expected to have a western peacefull society.
Is what they should try to be, but Indonesia and Afrika aren't Europe or North America.
Frazzled wrote: I didn't miss it, its just asininely stupid and borderline racist. "The little peon 3rd world country […]
Galas wrote: Frazzled has a point. Is all wonderfull in western land, but theres parts of the world that don't follow our rules and one can argue aren't in the same "historic period" as us.
We can't expect from them the same ethics and morals as us.
We arm them with weapons of war.
We make propoganda so our enemies fear them, we give them a image of strong warrors, defenders, a aura of fear and respect.
Wr use tactics and heavy ordnance to shock and make people flee.
Not terrorists as uch but we do share some of the tactics of it.
Shock and awe, blitzkrieg, it's all designed to overwhelm a enemy both in body and mind. When a enemy is afraid of you, you won the battle. Agressive infantry assult is meant to trhow someone off be sheer speed and aggression, shouting, outnumbering, breaking someone's resolve to resist.
Thee oen mind works against them.
Its not just the material results. It's a psychological battle and display of dominance over another group you have asigned your enemy.
Seems we and terrorists work off the same base ideas, fear, agression, control via intimidation in combat situations. To best attack a enemy in mind and body .
Just use very different methods to achive the goals however
Spinner wrote: What's really interesting is to see all the blind-eye-turning toward government-sponsored terrorism.
Being from Spain I know well from first hand about the GRAPO and ETA so... I suppose that government-sponsored terrorism is more recent here.
But well. As people play the "acknowledging the reality= Supporting that reality" card, I don't think people is interested in having a honest debate here. I haven't supported or stated that what Dutarte does something acceptable for us.
Frazzled wrote: I didn't miss it, its just asininely stupid and borderline racist. "The little peon 3rd world country elects a man I disagree with, so they're no better than ISIL." Thats a pretty big you to the Filipino people who are tired of poverty and druggie warlords, controlling the countryside. Now they have to deal with these wackjobs, which the majority Mindanao Muslims can't deal with-again cutting of heads and gak. But hey they're no better than ISIL.
You're attempting a sleight of hand there, in which you attempt to include all of the Filipino people as part of Duterte's side, lined up against ISIS. The Filipinos are the victims of both groups. The issue is whether Duterte or ISIS are the bigger threat to them.
There's a few thousand Filipino victims of Duterte already, through extra-judicial killings. Your claim that he was elected and therefore those killings are okay is absolutely flying rodent gak, to be frank. Becoming president doesn't give you the right to start murdering people, because holy gak of course it doesn't how is this even a thing I have to point out to you for a second time?
As such, the question becomes one of whether the ISIS threat is more concerning that Duterte. From a crude moral POV, ISIS are worse - they murder more freely and for much weaker reasons. But a real understanding of threat also needs to take in to account the power of each organisation. ISIS may be personally more murderous, but they remain a minority faction operating in one part of the country. On the other hand Duterte controls the government and has broad support, this gives him vastly greater power to murder for a much longer period of time.
Assessing which of these two is a greater threat to the Filipino people is an exercise is body count maths I didn't particularly want to enter, I can see arguments for both sides. But without entering that debate, I think it is important that arguments like the one you've attempted here, that it's okay to murder your citizens if you were elected to the presidency, and thinking it is bad when this happens in another country is 'borderline racist' is a plainly ridiculous argument.
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Galas wrote: Frazzled has a point. Is all wonderfull in western land, but theres parts of the world that don't follow our rules and one can argue aren't in the same "historic period" as us.
We can't expect from them the same ethics and morals as us. Obviously, I'm not endorsing what they do. But I can understand why they do it.
I understand why they do it. When a problem lingers people become impatient for a quick solution, and confuse brutality with effectiveness. That's hardly unique to the developing world.
But just because we can understand why they do it, that doesn't mean we should pointing out that it is immoral, and destined to fail. And at no point should we ever think that Fraz's argument that Duterte was elected therefore its okay is at all sensible, because god damn.
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Frazzled wrote: Evidently, nonWestern democracies have to match a certain standard for some before they are better than ISIL.
"A certain standard" being "don't murder thousands of your own people with extra-judicial killings".
I never considered it a particularly high hurdle to pass.
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Frazzled wrote: Sebster stated he wasn't sure which is worse.
No, I didn't say that. Please fething read what people actually fething say.
I said I didn't know which was scarier, because 'scarier' relates to threat, to which group has the power to hurt more people. "Worse", your word, has no meaning, and is a junk way to review the issue.
Thats directly comparing one of the worst terrorist entities in the last 100 years with an elected government. Does Dutarte suck? Potentially.
Potentially? How can you possibly be unsure about this? 6,000 dead and fraz isn't quite sure if he's a bad dude. What happens at 10,000 dead, do you go to 'probably'?
Dutarte goes away when his time expires.
The idea that a leader can murder citizens in his own country, and then leave office and everything just goes back to normal with no lingering effects on systems in the country is hopelessly naive.
After all, following this logic, the US which has turned extrajudicial killings into a high tech video game, would be no better than ISIL. Thats patently false and offensive.
Actually US strikes on terrorists follow judicial process. There's plenty of scope to improve and enhance that process, but claiming it doesn't exist is ignorant.
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Galas wrote: But personally, I think that unstable countrys can't be expected to have a western peacefull society.
Sure, but there remains some basic minimums, which Duterte's govt is clearly nowhere near.
Galas wrote: Frazzled has a point. Is all wonderfull in western land, but theres parts of the world that don't follow our rules and one can argue aren't in the same "historic period" as us.
We can't expect from them the same ethics and morals as us. Obviously, I'm not endorsing what they do. But I can understand why they do it.
I'm all for cultural reativity, but the government is breaking it's own laws that previous elected representatives put in place. We don't have to decide if it's wrong to perform these actions because they already did. Also, what Seb stated is not at all what Fraz claimed he stated. I'm inclined to believe that Frazz knows that and is (successfully) deflecting the part where Seb completely overturned his argument.
Sebster stated he wasn't sure which is worse. Thats directly comparing one of the worst terrorist entities in the last 100 years with an elected government. Does Dutarte suck? Potentially.
Comparing the Filipino ELECTED government to ISIL? Wow.
Dutarte goes away when his time expires. When does ISIL go away? oh yea, after you kill them all.
After all, following this logic, the US which has turned extrajudicial killings into a high tech video game, would be no better than ISIL. Thats patently false and offensive.
Much as he ain't nice. And what he done is not. He is however the elected president and is acting in the defense of his people against them.
Aaaaaadooooolf. *spooky voice*
For a non-Nazi comparison, the Palestinians elected Hamas, who are acting in defense of the Palestinians. Does this make what Hamas does OK?
you to the Filipino people who are tired of poverty and druggie warlords, controlling the countryside. Now they have to deal with these wackjobs, which the majority Mindanao Muslims can't deal with-again cutting of heads and gak. But hey they're no better than ISIL.
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