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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
CMON, Inc. Adopts Unilateral MAPP and Restructures Hobby Distribution Network
May 24, 2017
Today, May 24, CMON, Inc. announced it has adopted a unilateral Minimum Advertised Pricing Policy (MAPP) that will go into effect on June 1, 2017. Along with the new policy, CMON has restructured its existing hobby distribution network in the U.S. effective immediately. By unilaterally imposing restrictions on minimum prices advertised by CMON’s new distribution network and retail partners, CMON products’ perceived value in the customers’ eyes will be enhanced, which is in the best interest of consumers and CMON’s partners.
With the adoption of the unilateral MAPP, CMON has restructured their U.S. hobby distribution network to ensure efficient and effective distribution of their products to consumers in accordance with the new policy. As of May 24, 2017, the current hobby distributors CMON is working with include Alliance Game Distributors., ACD Distribution, and Peachstate Hobby Distribution (PHD).
The CMON MAPP will only apply to CMON branded products within the U.S., and products with a Minimum Advertised Price will appear on the current MAPP price list hosted on CMON.com. Adherence to the MAPP is non-negotiable for CMON product resellers, and will be strictly enforced by CMON to ensure the CMON brand maintains a high value in the consumer mindshare.
A copy of the CMON MAPP will be available at CMON.com/mapp and the CMON MAPP price list will be available at CMON.com/mapp_prices. [note: the pages aren't live yet so I don't know if this is going to be the 10-15% off a lot of the rest of the industry is running with but I guess it will be]
I guess this will mean no 'cheap' copies of the KS games that don't sell well, and probably means that Dark Age and Wrath of Kings won't turn up at any of the major online stores either
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Post by: Kirasu
They could have just said "US stores will no longer be stocking CMON board games."
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Post by: 455_PWR
Well, I can understand why. I have backed every zombicide, arcadia quest, rum and bones, as well massive darkness, wrath of kings, blood rage, sedition wars, etc. I hear many folks online ask why they should back at kickstarter prices when you can get the game and expansions cheaper after retail release (without kickstarter content though).
I've always backed as I felt I was getting a good game at a good price, and like supporting companies that are good to customers and make good games.
I don't think this will effect their board games (in fact it will help FLGS sales vs online sales). However... I do think this will hurt wrath of kings. It is a good game but it has suffered from the same issue as WWX 1st edition (pre warcradle) - mass distribution. If you can't get a skirmish game's minis into many hands, the game will survive but not be as popular. This leads to slow growth without additional kickstarters or tournament support.
Otherwise I don't mind that news. Back the kickstarters or pay full retail is all it means, and why wouldn't one back their kickstarters with the (ebay) value of the additional content you get?
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Post by: infinite_array
Yeah, that seems like an incredibly stupid idea.
But hey! Seems like a good time for anyone to pick up Wrath of Kings or Dark Age as online retailers put their stock up for clearance (also because they're good games - I can vouch for WoK, at least).
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Post by: Kirasu
Wait, you actually get your CMON games from Kickstarter?  that's a feat in itself!
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Post by: MadCowCrazy
So they took a look at GWs new pricing policy for the US and thought:
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Post by: judgedoug
CMON joins FFG/Asmodee and PP in "things I won't buy ever again"
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Post by: rich1231
Competition is a good thing, price competition is a good thing.
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Post by: judgedoug
rich1231 wrote:Competition is a good thing, price competition is a good thing.
Which firmly makes this MAPP price fixing a Very Bad Thing.
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Post by: MLaw
So what they're really saying is.. whatever you're going to buy on KS, buy two so you can throw the other up on Ebay at a discount that retailers can't match?
Seems reasonable..
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Post by: Time 2 Roll
If CMON was truly worried about the FLGS and the hobby market, they wouldn't Kickstart all of their games, cleaning out large blocks of the customer base before retailers have a chance.
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Post by: judgedoug
Time 2 Roll wrote:If CMON was truly worried about the FLGS and the hobby market, they wouldn't Kickstart all of their games, cleaning out large blocks of the customer base before retailers have a chance.
Yep. This is just a drive to get more Kickstarter backers. If everyone knows "this will be the absolute best price I'll ever be able to get it", then, pledge now, or spend triple later on.
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Post by: Justyn
Better for the Consumer.... price fixing is always better for the consumer... said no consumer ever.
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Post by: Pugnacious_Cee
What they're saying is that actual, physical stores that want to sell the game (whether that's little privately owned FLGS's or Barnes & Noble) need to sell the game at retail price, and Miniature Market throwing out Blood Rage for $50 on a Deal of the Day makes many people either buy it immediately on the cheap, or at least eliminates the possibility that those people would buy it for full price at their local store because they know it can be gotten for a considerably cheaper price.
I mean, I can see what you guys are saying, and I'd love to save money buying my toys, too, but this does make sense.
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Post by: Alpharius
They aren't saying max discount is (x)%, and that's that?
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Post by: DrNo172000
Ha! I can't believe they actually said raising prices would increase perceived value. Not how that works at all.
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Post by: judgedoug
 Pugnacious_Cee wrote:What they're saying is that actual, physical stores that want to sell the game (whether that's little privately owned FLGS's or Barnes & Noble) need to sell the game at retail price, and Miniature Market throwing out Blood Rage for $50 on a Deal of the Day makes many people either buy it immediately on the cheap, or at least eliminates the possibility that those people would buy it for full price at their local store because they know it can be gotten for a considerably cheaper price.
I mean, I can see what you guys are saying, and I'd love to save money buying my toys, too, but this does make sense.
No, it makes no sense. Instead of asking "how can we stop people from paying less?" they should ask "why is the consumer willing to pay so little?" (quote from my buddy)
In this case, Blood Rage is only "worth" $50 on mega sale because that's closest to the Kickstarter price. It is not worth $80.
It's price fixing in the guise of "helping" FLGS - but any FLGS that wants to compete with the internet will need to sell at a discount, too, or offer value-added services that increase the perceived value of a consumer paying full MSRP.
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
we don't know as the pages with that info aren't on the site yet
I'm hoping their minimum retail price is below their recommended retail price as that will at least allow a minimal level of discounts, but it could just as well be the normal retail price meaning no discounts at all (and stores stuck with anything that won't sell as if they do discount their distributor will have to cut them off?)
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Post by: Alpharius
If their MAPP ends up being "up to 20% off retail", is this a big deal?
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Post by: DrNo172000
 judgedoug wrote:
It's price fixing in the guise of "helping" FLGS - but any FLGS that wants to compete with the internet will need to sell at a discount, too, or offer value-added services that increase the perceived value of a consumer paying full MSRP.
Even worse it assumes the customer will always pay less if given the option. That assumes consumers are rational actors, but the problem is behavioral economics smashed that idea long ago.
Rather evidence actually shows customers will almost always pay more for the same because of perceived value added. The top being convenience, getting it faster, brand of seller, and customer service. For example Amazon customers are more often than not willing to pay more on Amazon even when presented with a cheaper option due to trust in Amazon.
The truth is the hobby industry from the LGS all the way up to the big publishers are woefully out of touch with modern retail practices. The counter argument is of course well it's a niche market blah blah blah. But no one has yet to explain to my why a niche market shouldn't be utilizing modern practices such as omnichannel solutions. Instead they fall back on price fixing which ultimately reduces customer choice and lowers perceived value.
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Post by: Elbows
I guess I read it differently than most.
I see it as likely they're putting a 15-25% cap on discounts for retailers. While that may raise some of the prices, I don't know how discounted materials normally are for CMON games.
That being said, CMON must think awfully highly of themselves if this is something they think will genuinely lead to more sales or more perceived value from the consumer. I have some CMON products and they're good, but I don't know if I'd pay near retail for other expansions/bits/bobs.
And, like GW products being limited to 15%...if CMON represents a large amount of product for a particular retailer, all of a sudden free shipping codes will show up (effectively increasing your discount, etc.). Seen this at several sites for GW products already.
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Post by: Kriswall
 Elbows wrote:I guess I read it differently than most.
I see it as likely they're putting a 15-25% cap on discounts for retailers. While that may raise some of the prices, I don't know how discounted materials normally are for CMON games.
That being said, CMON must think awfully highly of themselves if this is something they think will genuinely lead to more sales or more perceived value from the consumer. I have some CMON products and they're good, but I don't know if I'd pay near retail for other expansions/bits/bobs.
And, like GW products being limited to 15%...if CMON represents a large amount of product for a particular retailer, all of a sudden free shipping codes will show up (effectively increasing your discount, etc.). Seen this at several sites for GW products already.
There are several ways that retailers can get around this. I've also seen $X off a $Y purchase sort of thing.
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Post by: timetowaste85
 Kriswall wrote: Elbows wrote:I guess I read it differently than most.
I see it as likely they're putting a 15-25% cap on discounts for retailers. While that may raise some of the prices, I don't know how discounted materials normally are for CMON games.
That being said, CMON must think awfully highly of themselves if this is something they think will genuinely lead to more sales or more perceived value from the consumer. I have some CMON products and they're good, but I don't know if I'd pay near retail for other expansions/bits/bobs.
And, like GW products being limited to 15%...if CMON represents a large amount of product for a particular retailer, all of a sudden free shipping codes will show up (effectively increasing your discount, etc.). Seen this at several sites for GW products already.
There are several ways that retailers can get around this. I've also seen $X off a $Y purchase sort of thing.
One of my three favorite stores does this. Spend X, get 25% off. Doesn't matter what product you buy, it's his store that is discounted. And he's brick and mortar only.
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Post by: Pugnacious_Cee
judgedoug wrote: Pugnacious_Cee wrote:What they're saying is that actual, physical stores that want to sell the game (whether that's little privately owned FLGS's or Barnes & Noble) need to sell the game at retail price, and Miniature Market throwing out Blood Rage for $50 on a Deal of the Day makes many people either buy it immediately on the cheap, or at least eliminates the possibility that those people would buy it for full price at their local store because they know it can be gotten for a considerably cheaper price.
I mean, I can see what you guys are saying, and I'd love to save money buying my toys, too, but this does make sense.
No, it makes no sense. Instead of asking "how can we stop people from paying less?" they should ask "why is the consumer willing to pay so little?" (quote from my buddy)
In this case, Blood Rage is only "worth" $50 on mega sale because that's closest to the Kickstarter price. It is not worth $80.
It's price fixing in the guise of "helping" FLGS - but any FLGS that wants to compete with the internet will need to sell at a discount, too, or offer value-added services that increase the perceived value of a consumer paying full MSRP.
CMON has unique issues based entirely on their cyclical model of Kickstarters running every couple of months, while also considering that only a few of those titles are considered evergreen products, as well as acknowledging that they release products direct to retail without Kickstarter. It has to do not only with perceived value of a product (which we simply don't have the metrics to intelligently discuss short of stating our own opinions on the matter), but also the willingness of a retailer to stock the product for future sales with good faith that it will sell through. CMON ultimately wants to push products out the door to the retailers, but after that their main concern must be to maintain a healthy relationship to ensure they can push out their next product. Companies want to grow, and if they burn bridges over and over again, that's not going to happen.
The consumer is willing to pay so little because the consumer can do so safely. I can, right now, go pull up and order a copy of Blood Rage for $55 on Amazon Prime and have it at my house and ready to game on Saturday night if I so choose. Sure, I could run down to Barnes & Noble where I saw a copy on the shelf last week, and pay the $79.99 sticker price to have it right now and know my plans won't fall through. I don't have to, though, because I can save a considerable chunk of change AND still have confidence that it will be here when I want it to be. Blood Rage is even an evergreen product, based on its past success, so I'm not even worried about the consumer-rush to buy it before I no longer can. I can sit and comfortably assume that no, the price tag of $80 doesn't apply to me, because I know there are other safe options.
So based on all of that alone, this change in policy makes sense.
Now, consider that in the past few months CMON was listed on the Hong Kong stock exchange. Suddenly CMON needs to answer to shareholders, and inspire future confidence.
Now again, consider that in a few months from now, they will launch the Kickstarter for A Song of Ice and Fire Miniatures Game, which will assuredly be a multi-millions project, and is one where they've already outlined their product releases schedule halfway into 2018. They will want retailers to stock that line of products, despite the fact that those retailers will know (many from experience) that a vast portion of the consumer base interested in that product have already bought swathes of it on Kickstarter.
It does, actually, make sense.
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Post by: Yodhrin
But that's the point Pug - any retailer with two functioning braincells to rub together will realise immediately that price fixing isn't going to drive people to buy more from them, it's going to drive people to buy more from CMoN during the Kickstarter and even further reduce the post-KS retail sales - everyone who wants a copy for sure will now go in on the KS for certain unless they literally can't afford it, and those who can't or won't go in on the KS will be much less likely to buy later at retail with the prospect of a limited or nonexistent discount.
These companies are price fixing for their own benefit, not for retailers and certainly not for ours - every sale that goes through KS, even with the discounts and free extras, makes them more cash than a copy that has to pass through a distributor and a retailer before it gets to a customer.
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Post by: DrNo172000
During all Amazon board meetings Jeff Bezos puts an empty chair at the table. That chair represents the consumer and it's a reminder to himself and all board members to ask themselves how will this effect the consumer. After all it's not the Brick and Mortars or the Online retailers keeping anyone in business, it's the consumers. That's why Amazon brands themselves as the most customer centric business in the world. So let's do an experiment in this thread. Let's as a group come up with ways this might effect the consumer by role-paying as the consumer, I'll start.
As a consumer I have X dollars to spend on luxury items and board games are luxury items. I enjoy a large variety of board games and so buy products from many different companies. I will often shop with the company that provides both a cost effective means and has great CS, such as free shipping thresholds, guarantee replacement of damaged goods etc. MAP polices mean an overall increase in cost to me as a consumer. Because my dollar amount has not changed I have to reduce the amount of products I buy, I will need to cut out brands that I traditionally enjoy less than other brands. This means I will not be able to enjoy the same variety I used too.
There we go. Who wants to post the next consumer role play?
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Post by: judgedoug
Well, a consumer might hear about this price fixing business and become immediately turned off to the company regardless of the quality of products. This assumes this consumer is an informed consumer. so roleplaying as an informed consumer, say I miss the CMON Kickstarter - now I know I will never, ever get anywhere near the KS value, especially with the price fixing in place. I will now never buy this product, unless it shows up at a flea market at a convention - and second hand purchasing doesn't generate revenue for the company.
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Post by: Dr. Cheesesteak
 Yodhrin wrote:But that's the point Pug - any retailer with two functioning braincells to rub together will realise immediately that price fixing isn't going to drive people to buy more from them, it's going to drive people to buy more from CMoN during the Kickstarter and even further reduce the post- KS retail sales - everyone who wants a copy for sure will now go in on the KS for certain unless they literally can't afford it, and those who can't or won't go in on the KS will be much less likely to buy later at retail with the prospect of a limited or nonexistent discount.
These companies are price fixing for their own benefit, not for retailers and certainly not for ours - every sale that goes through KS, even with the discounts and free extras, makes them more cash than a copy that has to pass through a distributor and a retailer before it gets to a customer.
The funny thing is, like ~1/2 CMON games are actually KS'd.
Wth, I'll do the quick research...:
CMON games/expansions KS'd - 26 per their KS profile + Green Horde ( KS profile already says 26 before Green Horde, but one is just terrain for Microart Studios)
CMON games/expansions not KS'd - 29 (based on listed games on their site, also counting The Godfather)
So yeah, more CMON games are NOT KS'd than are. Generally, it's the smaller games, from other design studios that aren't KS'd. But every once in a while, i.e. Godfather, they'll still go straight to retail w/ a big box game from their own studio (Spag Western, Guillotine, etc).
So I'm curious how much this potential perceived KS pledge increase post-MAPP would really change their bottom line.
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Post by: DrNo172000
judgedoug wrote:Well, a consumer might hear about this price fixing business and become immediately turned off to the company regardless of the quality of products. This assumes this consumer is an informed consumer. so roleplaying as an informed consumer, say I miss the CMON Kickstarter - now I know I will never, ever get anywhere near the KS value, especially with the price fixing in place. I will now never buy this product, unless it shows up at a flea market at a convention - and second hand purchasing doesn't generate revenue for the company.
To wit we in fact live in a caveat venditor world now instead of caveat emptor. No longer are sales people the keeper of information that they can dole out at their leisure. We now have all the knowledge we could ever dream of at our fingertips. Therefore it is reasonable to assume that the average consumer will be aware of price increases due to any policy shift. Here is an interesting example that Daniel Pink gives in to 'Sell is Human', back before the internet the value of cars would be locked away in a safe at the dealership, the salesman himself would not even know. Now the consumer tells the salesman what the cars value is because they looked it up on the internet.
A note on your role play, try to write it in a first person from the customers perspective, and if possible try to avoid attacking the company. Here's another one
As a consumer price increases represent a loss to me because now the items I enjoy cost more than they use to. Since I am loss averse I will buy items that have increased prices less, especially if they don't represent a necessity. Automatically Appended Next Post:  Dr. Cheesesteak wrote: Yodhrin wrote:But that's the point Pug - any retailer with two functioning braincells to rub together will realise immediately that price fixing isn't going to drive people to buy more from them, it's going to drive people to buy more from CMoN during the Kickstarter and even further reduce the post- KS retail sales - everyone who wants a copy for sure will now go in on the KS for certain unless they literally can't afford it, and those who can't or won't go in on the KS will be much less likely to buy later at retail with the prospect of a limited or nonexistent discount.
These companies are price fixing for their own benefit, not for retailers and certainly not for ours - every sale that goes through KS, even with the discounts and free extras, makes them more cash than a copy that has to pass through a distributor and a retailer before it gets to a customer.
The funny thing is, like ~1/2 CMON games are actually KS'd.
Wth, I'll do the quick research...:
CMON games/expansions KS'd - 26 per their KS profile + Green Horde ( KS profile already says 26 before Green Horde, but one is just terrain for Microart Studios)
CMON games/expansions not KS'd - 29 (based on listed games on their site, also counting The Godfather)
So yeah, more CMON games are NOT KS'd than are. Generally, it's the smaller games, from other design studios that aren't KS'd. But every once in a while, i.e. Godfather, they'll still go straight to retail w/ a big box game from their own studio (Spag Western, Guillotine, etc).
So I'm curious how much this potential perceived KS pledge increase post-MAPP would really change their bottom line.
Throw in the fact that they've already said a Song of Ice and Fire will only be KSed for the core. Than they will release monthly retail releases. I'm assuming they are banking on strength of brand with that one though.
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Post by: John Prins
This isn't exactly price fixing. Price fixing is when several players in the industry collude to ensure they all sell the same thing at a certain price. Like the gasoline companies do,
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Post by: judgedoug
 DrNo172000 wrote:A note on your role play, try to write it in a first person from the customers perspective, and if possible try to avoid attacking the company. Here's another one
As a consumer price increases represent a loss to me because now the items I enjoy cost more than they use to. Since I am loss averse I will buy items that have increased prices less, especially if they don't represent a necessity.
I don't even need to roleplay to know that my own personal interest in the ASOIAF/Game of Thrones KS interest went from "high" to "nearly none due to this policy change".
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Post by: Alpharius
Even without knowing what the "MAPP" is here?
What if it allows for up to a 15% or 20% discount from the 'retail' price?
I mean, we don't know what the "MAPP" is yet, do we?
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Post by: judgedoug
 Alpharius wrote:Even without knowing what the "MAPP" is here?
What if it allows for up to a 15% or 20% discount from the 'retail' price?
I mean, we don't know what the "MAPP" is yet, do we?
Who cares what the number is? A company is attempting to dictate the value of it's products instead of the market asserting the value of it's products.
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Post by: Pugnacious_Cee
judgedoug wrote: DrNo172000 wrote:A note on your role play, try to write it in a first person from the customers perspective, and if possible try to avoid attacking the company. Here's another one
As a consumer price increases represent a loss to me because now the items I enjoy cost more than they use to. Since I am loss averse I will buy items that have increased prices less, especially if they don't represent a necessity.
I don't even need to roleplay to know that my own personal interest in the ASOIAF/Game of Thrones KS interest went from "high" to "nearly none due to this policy change".
So your personal ethos on this matter is that, because CMON wants to create/enforce a means for their products to be sold closer to the listed retail value (they are not actually raising prices, just saying they want them to actually be sold for less of a discount), you're not interested in spending *any* money on their products?
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Post by: Alpharius
judgedoug wrote: Alpharius wrote:Even without knowing what the "MAPP" is here?
What if it allows for up to a 15% or 20% discount from the 'retail' price?
I mean, we don't know what the "MAPP" is yet, do we?
Who cares what the number is? A company is attempting to dictate the value of it's products instead of the market asserting the value of it's products.
Do you no longer buy PP or GW products too?
Just curious.
Anyway, I'm not going to get upset until we find out what the MAPP is here - and maybe not even then.
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Post by: DrNo172000
 John Prins wrote:This isn't exactly price fixing. Price fixing is when several players in the industry collude to ensure they all sell the same thing at a certain price. Like the gasoline companies do,
Correct RPM (retail price maintenance) is technically a vertical strategy to protect incremental sales, and has been allowed by the Colgate Doctrine so long as the minimum price is unilateral and not set by an agreement between manufacturer and re-sellers (the manufacture can never set a price with the re-seller, they have to set the price and tell the re-seller this is what it's gonna be). Price-fixing by contrast is a horizontal strategy in which prices are fixed by groups with shared interest to cut out competition. Price-fixing violates anti-trust laws obviously. I'm surprised no one has brought up the electronic market as a counter to why MAP and MRP are good. I'll do it just to play both sides. Note this is based on how it works in the U.S and with U.S. laws.
Imagine that you are a brick and mortar retailer who sales cameras, you have floor models, retail space, and sales personnel. This is all very expensive, online stores often have none of these cost (if they don't have a B&M). So what happens is customers go to physical store get hands on with the cameras and don't buy (called freeriding in economics). They have benefited form a service without paying for it. They then go and buy the camera they liked online for much cheaper. So in order to protect the incremental sales from the physical channel (note it has nothing to do with protecting those stores, but rather keeping a source of revenue open, the protection of the stores is a bonus for those stores) the manufacturer sets a MRP or minimum resale price. That is the argument for that the electronic industry has stood on for a long time.
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Post by: Galas
judgedoug wrote: Alpharius wrote:Even without knowing what the "MAPP" is here?
What if it allows for up to a 15% or 20% discount from the 'retail' price?
I mean, we don't know what the "MAPP" is yet, do we?
Who cares what the number is? A company is attempting to dictate the value of it's products instead of the market asserting the value of it's products.
So... like Apple? 
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Post by: DrNo172000
Pugnacious_Cee wrote: judgedoug wrote: DrNo172000 wrote:A note on your role play, try to write it in a first person from the customers perspective, and if possible try to avoid attacking the company. Here's another one
As a consumer price increases represent a loss to me because now the items I enjoy cost more than they use to. Since I am loss averse I will buy items that have increased prices less, especially if they don't represent a necessity.
I don't even need to roleplay to know that my own personal interest in the ASOIAF/Game of Thrones KS interest went from "high" to "nearly none due to this policy change".
So your personal ethos on this matter is that, because CMON wants to create/enforce a means for their products to be sold closer to the listed retail value (they are not actually raising prices, just saying they want them to actually be sold for less of a discount), you're not interested in spending *any* money on their products?
This is false, it does indeed represent an increase in price. This is because price is from the consumer perspective not the manufacturer perspective. Therefore MSRP is not the actual price, the actual price is what the consumer is comfortable paying on a regular basis. Therefore if a consumer is use to paying X and price increases to Y it will represent a loss to the customer which will cause a negative reaction. I suggest reading Thinking Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman to have a better understanding of why this is bad. It's one of the foundations of behavioral economics tbh. Automatically Appended Next Post:  Galas wrote: judgedoug wrote: Alpharius wrote:Even without knowing what the "MAPP" is here?
What if it allows for up to a 15% or 20% discount from the 'retail' price?
I mean, we don't know what the "MAPP" is yet, do we?
Who cares what the number is? A company is attempting to dictate the value of it's products instead of the market asserting the value of it's products.
So... like Apple?
Apple is able to command a larger price because they have an extremely high perceived value amongst their target audience. Which of course their target audience cares nothing about the tech spec rather they care about Apple's why and buy that why, the center of the golden circle as Sinek calls it. I don't think anyone here is gonna argue that CMON has even close to the perceived value or brand strength in it's market that Apple does.
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Post by: judgedoug
Alpharius wrote:Do you no longer buy PP or GW products too? Just curious.Anyway, I'm not going to get upset until we find out what the MAPP is here - and maybe not even then.
Pretty much. The only purchases from PP I've made since they started their garbage policy have been from clearance sales (Mini Market mainly - and this past one they've run, I didn't buy anything). I think the only purchase in the past year was the Menoth Mk III starter from the FLGS during the preorder/prerelease (and got all the fun freebies).
As for GW, I was buying thru Doc's until recently (since Doc's hit the 15% limit now). I buy from ebay stores that sell at 20%+ off, and there's Amazon sellers that don't give a feth about GW's policy either. I've used store credit I've accrued at a FLGS to "buy" stuff at retail price, but the store credit was for trades of stuff I didn't want anymore (or got for pennies at other flea markets, etc).
And the same applies to Battlefront and Hawk. I have a ton of Team Yankee stuff that i've gotten from "under the table" resellers that just ignore Battlefront's minimum price garbage.
Unless the MAPP is 100%, any number is medged. Automatically Appended Next Post: Pugnacious_Cee wrote:So your personal ethos on this matter is that, because CMON wants to create/enforce a means for their products to be sold closer to the listed retail value (they are not actually raising prices, just saying they want them to actually be sold for less of a discount), you're not interested in spending *any* money on their products?
They are increasing prices. I could buy a $100 CMON game for $60. Therefore, it is $60. Assuming their MAPP is less than 40% off, it is a price increase.
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Post by: Pugnacious_Cee
DrNo172000 wrote:
Apple is able to command a larger price because they have an extremely high perceived value amongst their target audience. Which of course their target audience cares nothing about the tech spec rather they care about Apple's why and buy that why, the center of the golden circle as Sinek calls it. I don't think anyone here is gonna argue that CMON has even close to the perceived value or brand strength in it's market that Apple does.
This seems to be *exactly* what CMON is trying to do. How many big name brands in board games, at least that are widely recognizable, are there?
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Post by: DrNo172000
judgedoug wrote: Alpharius wrote:Do you no longer buy PP or GW products too? Just curious.Anyway, I'm not going to get upset until we find out what the MAPP is here - and maybe not even then.
Pretty much. The only purchases from PP I've made since they started their garbage policy have been from clearance sales (Mini Market mainly - and this past one they've run, I didn't buy anything). I think the only purchase in the past year was the Menoth Mk III starter from the FLGS during the preorder/prerelease (and got all the fun freebies).
As for GW, I was buying thru Doc's until recently (since Doc's hit the 15% limit now). I buy from ebay stores that sell at 20%+ off, and there's Amazon sellers that don't give a feth about GW's policy either. I've used store credit I've accrued at a FLGS to "buy" stuff at retail price, but the store credit was for trades of stuff I didn't want anymore (or got for pennies at other flea markets, etc).
And the same applies to Battlefront and Hawk. I have a ton of Team Yankee stuff that i've gotten from "under the table" resellers that just ignore Battlefront's minimum price garbage.
Unless the MAPP is 100%, any number is medged.
Anecdotal as it may be I also ceased all purchasing of Privateer Press products due in large part because of the MAP and it was easily one of my top 3 miniature games. Then after awhile I slowly stopped playing. I still lament it at times but ultimately they priced me out. Automatically Appended Next Post: Pugnacious_Cee wrote: DrNo172000 wrote:
Apple is able to command a larger price because they have an extremely high perceived value amongst their target audience. Which of course their target audience cares nothing about the tech spec rather they care about Apple's why and buy that why, the center of the golden circle as Sinek calls it. I don't think anyone here is gonna argue that CMON has even close to the perceived value or brand strength in it's market that Apple does.
This seems to be *exactly* what CMON is trying to do. How many big name brands in board games, at least that are widely recognizable, are there?
You can't do it by setting a MAP though. That's a gross misunderstanding of perceived value. Perceived value raises prices, prices don't raise perceived value (there are exceptions, but these exceptions generally start with a high price). There is a reason why you can get the same diamond ring at 399 from at Costco but 1999.99 from Tiffany&Co. It doesn't matter they are the exact same ring Tiffany still sales more of them because of the perceived value it's brand carries.
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Post by: judgedoug
DrNo172000 wrote:Anecdotal as it may be I also ceased all purchasing of Privateer Press products due in large part because of the MAP and it was easily one of my top 3 miniature games. Then after awhile I slowly stopped playing. I still lament it at times but ultimately they priced me out.
And you were a Press Ganger when you were a game store manager, right?
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Post by: Pugnacious_Cee
Then what, do you gentlemen propose, is the purpose of this MAPP, then?
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Post by: DrNo172000
Most likely as a strategy to protect incremental sales from both Kickstarter and Physical stores. More sources of sales is good for a manufacturer. See my electronics example above, of course whether that strategy works is a completely different can of worms.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
judgedoug wrote: DrNo172000 wrote:Anecdotal as it may be I also ceased all purchasing of Privateer Press products due in large part because of the MAP and it was easily one of my top 3 miniature games. Then after awhile I slowly stopped playing. I still lament it at times but ultimately they priced me out.
And you were a Press Ganger when you were a game store manager, right?
Never a Press Ganger as I was in the process for about a year and then they announced they where killing it. Note I also applied after I left that sales manager position to avoid conflict of interest.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Check out the infograph in this article (you can ignore the lobster bit unless you are fascinated by it like me). Scroll down to how price effects perceived value. Bullet point 3 is the one that concerns what CMON or not is doing. Now I'm arguing that an expectation has already been set, that expectation is that I can get the product at a certain price below MSRP. So if that price goes up it'll feel like a rip off to the average consumer because it represents less money in the consumers wallet if they choose to still buy.
https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/243716
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Post by: John Prins
DrNo172000 wrote: John Prins wrote:This isn't exactly price fixing. Price fixing is when several players in the industry collude to ensure they all sell the same thing at a certain price. Like the gasoline companies do,
Imagine that you are a brick and mortar retailer who sales cameras, you have floor models, retail space, and sales personnel. This is all very expensive, online stores often have none of these cost (if they don't have a B&M). So what happens is customers go to physical store get hands on with the cameras and don't buy (called freeriding in economics). They have benefited form a service without paying for it. They then go and buy the camera they liked online for much cheaper. So in order to protect the incremental sales from the physical channel (note it has nothing to do with protecting those stores, but rather keeping a source of revenue open, the protection of the stores is a bonus for those stores) the manufacturer sets a MRP or minimum resale price. That is the argument for that the electronic industry has stood on for a long time.
Exactly. Online retailers killing off brick and mortar stores is NOT a win for the consumer in the long run. Online retailers are great for things you can't get reasonably close to where you live, but they actually offer less value to the customer despite having the 'lowest' price.
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Post by: DrNo172000
John Prins wrote: DrNo172000 wrote: John Prins wrote:This isn't exactly price fixing. Price fixing is when several players in the industry collude to ensure they all sell the same thing at a certain price. Like the gasoline companies do,
Imagine that you are a brick and mortar retailer who sales cameras, you have floor models, retail space, and sales personnel. This is all very expensive, online stores often have none of these cost (if they don't have a B&M). So what happens is customers go to physical store get hands on with the cameras and don't buy (called freeriding in economics). They have benefited form a service without paying for it. They then go and buy the camera they liked online for much cheaper. So in order to protect the incremental sales from the physical channel (note it has nothing to do with protecting those stores, but rather keeping a source of revenue open, the protection of the stores is a bonus for those stores) the manufacturer sets a MRP or minimum resale price. That is the argument for that the electronic industry has stood on for a long time.
Exactly. Online retailers killing off brick and mortar stores is NOT a win for the consumer in the long run. Online retailers are great for things you can't get reasonably close to where you live, but they actually offer less value to the customer despite having the 'lowest' price.
Eh value is highly relative. Amazon actually offers tons and tons of value to their customers, actual value, it's why their customers will actually pay more for items from Amazon, their customers will often not even price compare due to so much trust in Amazon. I would disagree that RPM has helped protect brick and mortars. The electronic industry is in fact a prime example, it is getting harder and harder to find electronics outside of big box stores in a physical location (at least in the US). So you have Walmart, Target, maybe Bestbuy, and online stores which all those psychical stores have. Rather in my opinion it is not online retailers killing off brick and mortars but a lack of elasticity on the part of brick and mortar retailers in a ever evolving market. Omnichannel is the way to go!
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Post by: judgedoug
John Prins wrote:Exactly. Online retailers killing off brick and mortar stores is NOT a win for the consumer in the long run. Online retailers are great for things you can't get reasonably close to where you live, but they actually offer less value to the customer despite having the 'lowest' price.
I would disagree. Online retailers killing off poorly-run brick and mortar stores is a GREAT win for the consumer in the long run. Those terrible FLGS should die while the good ones thrive. If a bad FLGS dies, then the vacuum left by it's passing will encourage an entrepreneur to open a better-run FLGS that will have value-added services.
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Post by: DrNo172000
Also I think it's important to understand the difference between what a company says legally and why they actually do things. I doubt any manufacturer says to them selves I want brick and mortars to survive. Rather I think they say to themselves I want to maintain this sales channel. If they viewed brick and mortars as a completely non-viable sales channel they'd leave them to rot. Make no mistake, a companies altruism only goes so far.
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Post by: Kirasu
judgedoug wrote: Alpharius wrote:Even without knowing what the "MAPP" is here?
What if it allows for up to a 15% or 20% discount from the 'retail' price?
I mean, we don't know what the "MAPP" is yet, do we?
Who cares what the number is? A company is attempting to dictate the value of it's products instead of the market asserting the value of it's products.
You must not buy any products from any retailer I assume? Every single company dictates the price of their products, this isn't a stock price. They sell to a wholesale vendor at a set price that then marks it up and sells it to a retailer who then sells it to us. Sure, sometimes you have a small amount of price wiggle room but there is ALWAYS a base price dictated by the company. After all, it's their product.
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Post by: judgedoug
 Kirasu wrote:You must not buy any products from any retailer I assume? Every single company dictates the price of their products,
I'm guessing you didn't mean to use the word 'dictate' and instead meant to use the word 'suggests'?
Even if the case of a manufacturer selling to a distributor, the prices are set entirely based on quantities, previous relationships, etc. Or, you can buy factory-direct and skip the middle-man!
And, yes, as a consumer, I buy products at the value I perceive them to be. This is often much less than the Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price, and far below some aforementioned companies set with their "Minimum" price schemes. This applies across all avenues of life. I am a sucker for seeing the "percentage savings" at the bottom of my Kroger grocery store receipt after combining their sales and manufacturer coupons into a delightful combination of paying far under retail. There's pleeeeennntttyyy of products where the price will never be low enough to get me to purchase them. Their perceived value, to me, is nil. Canned olives, or Infinity, for example.
In this specific case, CMON has enacted a price increase. I was comfortable buying a few of their products at 35-40% off - I even bought Zombicide at 50% off, which was about what I thought it was worth. If their MAP sets no discounts greater, than, for example, 20%, then it is a huge price increase and now I will have to reevaluate if they still hold value to me (probably not)
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Post by: DrNo172000
Kirasu wrote: judgedoug wrote: Alpharius wrote:Even without knowing what the "MAPP" is here?
What if it allows for up to a 15% or 20% discount from the 'retail' price?
I mean, we don't know what the "MAPP" is yet, do we?
Who cares what the number is? A company is attempting to dictate the value of it's products instead of the market asserting the value of it's products.
You must not buy any products from any retailer I assume? Every single company dictates the price of their products, this isn't a stock price. They sell to a wholesale vendor at a set price that then marks it up and sells it to a retailer who then sells it to us. Sure, sometimes you have a small amount of price wiggle room but there is ALWAYS a base price dictated by the company. After all, it's their product.
There is a difference between dictating wholesale price (and they don't dictate that even, they negotiate it) and dictating resell price, that you are equating the two seems disingenuous. Also note the consumer sets price no matter what, it doesn't matter that it's YOUR product. Because if no one will buy it then who cares whose product it is. Rather if you want to get a certain price you better back it up with a strong brand and reason for the customer to perceive the value at that price. MSRP is not the actual price of something, again the actual price is the price the consumer is willing to pay on a regular basis.
I personally do not think CMON brand is worth close to their MSRP, I can't speak for others though as most of their games aren't to my taste. So that's purely anecdotal. Though I think objectively they don't have nearly as strong of a brand as FFG or GW when it comes to hobby companies. Automatically Appended Next Post: So essentially no one outside of mega brands like Apple get to dictate prices. They negotiate them.
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Post by: Ernster
I will stop purchasing Cmon products as well. I stopped when GW and PP did it so Cmon will receive the same. Dust Tactics increased their prices greatly and have suffered based on the KS and a price increase.
Cmon doing this with the upcoming GoT KS is disappointing based on the fact that the later armies will be released at retail. The KS providing only two armies with the rest at a SUGGESTED price stinks.
Cmon released its financial info this year with record revenue levels of 28 million. This company has grown a lot and are certainly not hurting for cash.
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Post by: Alpharius
I just wish they'd tell us what the MAPP is going to be already!!! 
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Post by: John Prins
DrNo172000 wrote:
Eh value is highly relative. Amazon actually offers tons and tons of value to their customers, actual value, it's why their customers will actually pay more for items from Amazon, their customers will often not even price compare due to so much trust in Amazon. I would disagree that RPM has helped protect brick and mortars. The electronic industry is in fact a prime example, it is getting harder and harder to find electronics outside of big box stores in a physical location (at least in the US). So you have Walmart, Target, maybe Bestbuy, and online stores which all those psychical stores have. Rather in my opinion it is not online retailers killing off brick and mortars but a lack of elasticity on the part of brick and mortar retailers in a ever evolving market. Omnichannel is the way to go!
I agree that brick and mortar stores should use online sales, but they still won't be able to compete with stores lacking that brick and mortar presence. The overhead is killer. And physical locations to play are pretty essential in the wargaming hobby. The real choices are:
1.) Support your FLGS with higher prices and a place to play,
2.) Support your gaming club (dues to pay for play space),
3.) Host games at your own home with people you trust enough to not steal your stuff (cost of table and terrain).
Automatically Appended Next Post: judgedoug wrote: John Prins wrote:Exactly. Online retailers killing off brick and mortar stores is NOT a win for the consumer in the long run. Online retailers are great for things you can't get reasonably close to where you live, but they actually offer less value to the customer despite having the 'lowest' price.
I would disagree. Online retailers killing off poorly-run brick and mortar stores is a GREAT win for the consumer in the long run. Those terrible FLGS should die while the good ones thrive. If a bad FLGS dies, then the vacuum left by it's passing will encourage an entrepreneur to open a better-run FLGS that will have value-added services.
This assumes that online sales can't kill off even well run FLGS. That remains to be seen. It's possible that the FLGS just isn't a viable business model, but I think the wargame community needs those physical play locations to grow/survive and allow the market to create more/new products for us to consume. There's a relationship between games stores and games getting made/created. Local gaming clubs CAN replace that, but they won't necessarily do so. I think we're better off with FLGS friendly policies by games manufacturers, that's enlightened self-interest.
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
It bothers me to say the least, as a consumer.
Honestly though, I haven't bought any CMON products at retail. I doubt I would have prior to this as well. Any kind of pricing shenanigans are certainly going to keep me from making any purchases in the future under those kinds of conditions as well.
I stopped buying Privateer's stuff when they started messing with discounts, and prior to GW's discount bundling, I hadn't touched anything of theirs in years.
Will this move stop me from backing a Kickstarter though? Probably not, if the pot is sweet enough.
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Post by: DrNo172000
@John Prins
There is definitely no question that a space to play is necessary for these games, with miniature games, and hex and counters being the two that require the most (though Hex and Counters are a niche within a niche within a niche, so unlikely a store would even carry or you'd see people playing in a store). The question then is the LGS necessary to provide that, I think the answer of "yes" is just something we all assume. You can't possibly open a store without a place to play, is the conventional wisdom. There is unfortunately no statistic that I'm aware of (outside of a single survey) to say whether this is true or not.
However, let's consider it is. Does that mean the LGS can still survive with a MAP. I'm not so certain, gaming, especially board games and RPGs is growing rapidly. The large chains have begun to notice, Barnes & Nobles host a yearly play day across most of it's stores and many stores have implemented regular board game nights. Board games cafe's are picking up in popularity in the west coast. Hobby Town has started looking into hosting 40k and games like X-Wing and dedicating space too it at some of it's stores. There's a shift in the market, and I argue that even with all the RPM strategies manufacturers can muster the mom & pop style LGS is doomed in the long run because it's a model that simply no longer works in a ever evolving market. Even having an online component is not enough (note ANA made this really hard for the small business anyway), retailers need to get savvy and have multiple channels from which they can interact with customers and those channels need to be seamlessly integrated. Barnes & Noble who I mentioned earlier is a prime example, when digital book sales exploded many book stores even the big chains complained it would ruin the industry it would be terrible for the consumer. All the same arguments we are seeing now. Those that clung to the old way, like borders when out of business. Barnes & Noble though shifted their entire business model, they got digital, and one of the other things they did was increase their game section by a substantial amount. At the end of the day if your plan is for the long term you can not expect to have the same business model throughout your entire existence.
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Post by: ced1106
Alpharius wrote:I just wish they'd tell us what the MAPP is going to be already!!!
MAPP means Minimum *Advertised* Pricing Policy. Retailers can still sell the product at whatever discount, they just can't "advertise" it.
This isn't any different than when you see something on Amazon where you have to put the item in your cart to see the price. Or agree to buy an Apple product, which is also under MAP.
This SBA article says MAP is not as straightforward as you may think, because the seller can charge MSRP, but still add value, such as free shipping -- or KS exclusives.
The Nuvonium article argues that it *protects* retailers because they know *other* retailers won't be able to as easily undercut them.
SBA article: https://www.sba.gov/blogs/how-minimum-advertised-pricing-impacts-your-retail-or-online-stores-marketing-efforts
Nuvonium article: https://www.nuvonium.com/blog/view/manufacturer-suggest-retail-price-msrp-vs-minimum-advertised-price-map-expl
fwiw, Here's the Rising Sun Retail Pledge agreement: https://cmon.com/news/rising-sun-kickstarter-retail-pledge
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Post by: ScarletRose
Honestly the whole thing seems like a microcosm of what my generation and younger seem to be dealing with (especially Millenials) - when we ask why things are the way they are it's because capitalism and what are you some kind of commie?
And now there's MAPs and price fixing and collusion everywhere without a hint of irony about what this means for the justifications for the current state of things.
At the end of the day if your plan is for the long term you can not expect to have the same business model throughout your entire existence.
Exactly, businesses will adapt and survive or they won't. Trying to force people to keep buying horses after the advent of the affordable automobile is a dead end.
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Post by: insaniak
John Prins wrote:
I agree that brick and mortar stores should use online sales, but they still won't be able to compete with stores lacking that brick and mortar presence.
From my current 3 main 'go-to' online stores, 2 of them have B&M stores. One of them has been trading since before the internet was a thing... I used to get their mail-order catalogues as a teenager.
B&M stores can compete with online-only retailers. Most of them just choose not to.
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Post by: LunarSol
 ScarletRose wrote:Honestly the whole thing seems like a microcosm of what my generation and younger seem to be dealing with (especially Millenials) - when we ask why things are the way they are it's because capitalism and what are you some kind of commie?
And now there's MAPs and price fixing and collusion everywhere without a hint of irony about what this means for the justifications for the current state of things.
At the end of the day if your plan is for the long term you can not expect to have the same business model throughout your entire existence.
Exactly, businesses will adapt and survive or they won't. Trying to force people to keep buying horses after the advent of the affordable automobile is a dead end.
It's not a "your generation" thing. Pretty much every generation since... at least WWII has grown up in an era where economy of scale has driven down pricing to incredibly low levels that make an avalanche of unnecessary things incredibly affordable. The flip side is that we grow up without a real appreciation for just how narrow things run unless we decide to try and make a living out of it. Everything is a matter of scale. Can I sell something for 200% of what it cost to make or is it possible to sell 20 of them at just 120%? Even the online discounter are subject to this. The reason you don't see ever LGS jumping into this is that its really only works for the top dog and a couple of lackeys. If there were as many online stores as big as Miniature Market, the discounts wouldn't hold anyway because the sale volumes wouldn't support the business.
Honestly, big chains taking notice of the industry is likely a big reason why we're seeing this. They're pretty much the ultimate example of huge sale volumes allow for big success on slim margins. For Wal-Mart to buy your games though, they're going to only be willing to sell them at a competitive industry price and if your game is only actually successful at 30% off MSRP... well, Wal-Mart is going to insist being able to sell at the same price... but you're still only going to get the 5-10% of their now lower price you would have before. That's the real truth in "perceived value"; if everyone is buying your product as a discount, then real value of the product is far less than your MSRP. Most companies just aren't receiving a big enough cut of their MSRP to survive on much less (I mean, assuming they want it to actually pay for things like their home and stuff) and even if they did cut the MSRP it wouldn't matter if discounters continue to drive the value you down.
That's essentially what MAP is about. It's designed to slow how much pushing volume over margins can drive down the value of a product so that the manufacturer can continue to sell that product (to distribution chains that help ensure significant sale volumes to enable production runs in quantiities that can make the MSRP as cheap as it is) at a price that keeps the lights on. It's really nothing new. Video games, movies, toys, pretty much anything sold in any sort of volume probably has one in place. It's just new to games and because of that, we're getting a good look at what happens when the machine breaks down.
I'd actually recommend looking into economics; even if you're not the business type. I'm surely not, but its pretty fascinating to read up on and see how it all works... or doesn't, as the case may be. In any case, its pretty humbling to look into the numbers and get an idea just how many copies of something generally has to be sold to even make minimum wage. If I've learned anything, its that I really don't envy anyone trying to make a living out of this industry and when it comes to things like MAPs, the reasons are far more reaching than just the increased cost to me as the consumer.
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Post by: John Prins
DrNo172000 wrote:
However, let's consider it is. Does that mean the LGS can still survive with a MAP. I'm not so certain, gaming, especially board games and RPGs is growing rapidly. The large chains have begun to notice, Barnes & Nobles host a yearly play day across most of it's stores and many stores have implemented regular board game nights. Board games cafe's are picking up in popularity in the west coast.
A local gaming/sci-fi store supported itself for over a decade by having an in-store restaurant. Gaming cafes are a thing I can see working, much like a bar that runs pool tables to sell drinks.
I'm not in favor of a race to the bottom with regards to prices on games. Yes, I want the hobby to be accessible to a broad audience, but at the same time I don't want to see a drop in the quality of product that the top tier board/war gaming companies produce if they decide they have to chase slim margins. I'm old enough to remember when comic books decided that selling on cheap, crappy paper with garbage color and books full of ads was a business model that wasn't working and went to glossy paper with ink saturation and next to no ads - the price shot up, but the product was far better for it. Artists had more time to draw and color thanks to the increased income, and the comic book market took off for a good while. Of course it got bloated and excessive soon enough, but that's the way these things go.
There's more than one economic model that works. Tiny margins and huge volumes is one, but I don't think wargaming will ever be so popular that the sales volume can support that kind of economic model. Right now we're not quite in the 'luxury goods' model, despite GW's best efforts, but we are still stuck in the boutique hobby end of the spectrum rather than the mainstream hobby zone.
Note that there's good reason that game makers might not want to engage the broader market - big retail companies can be incredibly predatory in some regards. Up here in Ontario there's an ice cream maker (Kawartha) that makes fantastic ice cream, but you won't find it in most larger retailers. Why not? Those retailers demand a certain level of supply, which requires you to invest huge amounts of money in equipment and labor. Suddenly, the supermarket has the supplier by the nuts - if they stop buying, you can't afford all the shiny new stuff you've bought and you go out of business. So suddenly they're stuck selling at razor thin margins just to keep the doors open.
Kawartha wasn't willing to engage on those terms, so they sell to smaller, independent grocery stores for the most part. Most game manufacturers don't have the cash flow or reserves to play at that level of retail and come out unscathed.
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Post by: Digclaw
This is only MAPP, it only effects what stores can advertise. A LGS can still discount them in store, but they cannot advertise the products with the lower price outside the store.
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Post by: John Prins
 LunarSol wrote:
I'd actually recommend looking into economics; even if you're not the business type. I'm surely not, but its pretty fascinating to read up on and see how it all works... or doesn't, as the case may be. In any case, its pretty humbling to look into the numbers and get an idea just how many copies of something generally has to be sold to even make minimum wage. If I've learned anything, its that I really don't envy anyone trying to make a living out of this industry and when it comes to things like MAPs, the reasons are far more reaching than just the increased cost to me as the consumer.
So very, very true. Kickstarter is a great window into the economic realities of breaking into the gaming market, where $100K is basically required to produce a decent game at a fair value, and only once you've fulfilled the Kickstarter can you actually start to make a lick of profit from what amounts to a year or more of work. And then they have to compete with the resellers who backed the Kickstarter, and people who think because it was $50 on the Kickstarter that it should be at most $65 at retail, because everything was already paid for (except for that whole year of work sunk into the project, which is handily ignored).
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Post by: shabbadoo
 455_PWR wrote:Otherwise I don't mind that news. Back the kickstarters or pay full retail is all it means, and why wouldn't one back their kickstarters with the (ebay) value of the additional content you get?
So don't back your "full retail" FLGS, but don't cry when you no longer have any nearby.
Also, the thread title tells us that the OP is a click-bait idiot, as *NO* company can demand that a US retailer can never, ever discount something or put something on sale. The only thing can that can be demanded is not selling below a certain discount level *all of the time*, as that can be seen to be damaging to the perceived product value, which is understandable *to a certain degree*. That being said, if a product is not selling, a retailer has every right to sell that turd *for whatever discount they want to* so as to move said turd out of their store and recoup their money and so put it back into stocking something else that will sell/be profitable.
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Post by: Alpharius
ced1106 wrote: Alpharius wrote:I just wish they'd tell us what the MAPP is going to be already!!!
MAPP means Minimum *Advertised* Pricing Policy. Retailers can still sell the product at whatever discount, they just can't "advertise" it.
I know what "MAPP" means, I'm just wondering what CMON will set the MAPP to - in other words, what will be the max advertised discount allowed. You know, the MADA. 
Probably 10%?
I didn't see a MAPP listed in there...
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Post by: 455_PWR
Hmm.... shabbadoo you didn't read my entire post did you?
"don't think this will effect their board games (in fact it will help FLGS sales vs online sales)"
I am very pro flgs, and I know where my money is spent. If my flgs goes out of business then I will buy online. I dont actually play at my flgs though. Maybe don't be so quick to judge unless you read posts in entirety or know who you are speaking about
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Post by: ced1106
Alpharius wrote:I know what "MAPP" means, I'm just wondering what CMON will set the MAPP to - in other words, what will be the max advertised discount allowed. You know, the MADA.
Oops -- I posted the MAPP article because *other* Dakkanauts were starting to get out the pitchforks and torches. 
The CMON retail link doesn't mention MAPP, but I thought the Dakkanauts avoiding the acorns falling from the sky would find useful an example of CMON terms to retailers for selling product.
Asmodee's pricing policy was also supposed to be the end of the world (at least on BGG). For myself, I haven't picked up the latest Eldritch Horror expansion, nor the Arkham Horror LCG. But I don't miss playing these games, since other companies, particularly on KS, are willing to give me a better value for my money. Has anyone here been that affected by Asmodee?
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Post by: Alpharius
From ICv2:
https://icv2.com/articles/news/view/37589/cmon-inc-adopts-mapp
Reorients Hobby Distribution
Posted by Nicole Bunge on May 24, 2017 @ 6:01 am CT
CMON, Inc. will adopt a unilateral Minimum Advertised Pricing Policy (MAPP) beginning on June 1, 2017, and will also be restructuring its current hobby distribution network in the U.S., effective immediately.
In implementing the pricing restrictions on its new distribution network and retailers, CMON expects the perceived value of its products to be enhanced. CMON’s current hobby distribution network includes Alliance Game Distributors, ACD Distribution, and Peachstate Hobby Distribution (PHD).
The MAP policy will only apply to CMON’s own branded products within the U.S. All products with a Minimum Advertised Price will be included on a MAPP list on CMON’s website. All CMON product resellers must adhere to the MAPP, and CMON will strictly enforce prices.
CMON is joining a number of hobby game manufacturers addressing the channel conflict between brick-and-mortar and online retailers. Privateer Press introduced a policy last spring (see "Privateer Axes Offending Online Retailers"), joining Asmodee NA (Asmodee Editions, Days of Wonder, Fantasy Flight Games, Z-Man Games), Games Workshop, and Mayfair Games which all have policies to combat online discounting. [Update: Iello Games informed ICv2 that the company also recently adopted a MAP policy.]
Game store owner and marketing instructor Scott Thorne discussed MAP in his latest ICv2 column (see "Rolling for Initiative--Minimum Advertised Pricing").
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Post by: TheAuldGrump
See The Auld Grump - watch in amazement as he doesn't buy CMON games.
Marvel as he stops backing them on Kickstarter.
Gape in awe as he finds *GASP!* other games to play. (Mostly on Kickstarter....)
I like Zombicide, I am glad I bought it.
But I dislike MAPP enough that I will not be buying from CMON anymore - even when I can find them for a discount.
I no longer buy Privateer, Asmodee, or Fantasy Flight games, for that exact reason.
I am only now considering buying GW games again because they have loosened their stance a bit - and want to encourage that.
The Auld Grump
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Post by: Theophony
Inquiring minds (Mostly Alpharius ) want to know what that MAPP discount will be  .
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Post by: Alpharius
Agreed!
I'm saving any potential outrage until we see what the allowable discount (if any) will be.
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Post by: Digclaw
It is just a MAPP policy, It isn't like they are going to go from store to store checking to make sure evry copy of their game is MSRP. They just don't want you doing an Ad campaign showing their stuff at Half Off.
It isn't like the Privateer Press policy that puts you on a blacklist if you sell online, or the Asmodee policy that raises your Wholesale prices if you sell online.
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Post by: AduroT
Except PP doesn't stop you from selling online?
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Post by: Dysartes
I was wondering about that, but not enough to get into a debate about it.
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Post by: ThaneCawdor
This is even funnier when you consider that CMON is basically the remnant of New Wave Games... and now they're railing against the scourge of online discounters.
Ah well at this point i lost my sorta maybe interest in ASOIF, Dark Age and Xenoshyft, so it does save me money in the long run.
If they ever did Rivet Wars Western front i would still bite, so i suppose its a good thing they strangled that game in the crib so I have moral consistency.
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Post by: Alpharius
It is a shame about Rivet Wars, isn't it?
I wonder what happened there, and if we'll ever see more for that game...
I also wonder when we'll ever find out just what MAPP CMON is going to be setting for everything...!
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Post by: Pugnacious_Cee
Rivet Wars simply didn't sell well enough to support what all was put into it based on what I heard, and I'd bet there was some IP conflict if the creator wasn't willing to wholly sell it to CMON. That was all going on right when the Relic Knights stuff caused the split with Soda Pop Miniatures, so who knows.
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Post by: Nuwisha
 ThaneCawdor wrote:This is even funnier when you consider that CMON is basically the remnant of New Wave Games... and now they're railing against the scourge of online discounters.
Ah well at this point i lost my sorta maybe interest in ASOIF, Dark Age and Xenoshyft, so it does save me money in the long run.
If they ever did Rivet Wars Western front i would still bite, so i suppose its a good thing they strangled that game in the crib so I have moral consistency.
There connection to New Wave Games is especially funny to me. Near the end/implosion of NWG my parents ordered me an army box of eldar and dark eldar for Christmas one year (3rd ed 40k, so the giant boxed armies). They sent us four army boxes. We tried to contact them for six months to return the extra army boxes and never had anyone answer the phone or return an email.
Now they are mad that people are selling things too cheaply.
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Post by: Moopy
The whole, "If a person buys it for less, they value it less" Is utter BS. Period.
People buy what they can afford.
Right now there's absolutely no reason to by a CMON game that isn't from Kickstarter or ebay for the extra content.
Welcome to lost sales.
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Post by: Schmapdi
Alpharius wrote:It is a shame about Rivet Wars, isn't it?
I wonder what happened there, and if we'll ever see more for that game...
I also wonder when we'll ever find out just what MAPP CMON is going to be setting for everything...!
Aww, Rivet Wars - I really liked that - I still have EVERYTHING from the first kickstarter though - which ought to be a lifetime's worth of variety if so wanted. I wouldn't think selling poorly at retail would dissuade them when the whole point of the KS is to self-fund the production.
The whole, "If a person buys it for less, they value it less" Is utter BS. Period.
People buy what they can afford.
Right now there's absolutely no reason to by a CMON game that isn't from Kickstarter or ebay for the extra content.
Welcome to lost sales.
To this I would add maybe the reason for this is the ABSURD number of kickstarter exclusives CMON pumps into every KS they do. I certainly wouldn't buy into one of their games at retail knowing that 30% of the content of the game (and often the coolest content) was unavailable to unless I was willing to be gouged for it on Ebay.
This puts you into a situation of "Buy into a $300 all-in pledge to get all the goodies from KS and wait 2 years for it" or "Buy the game at retail at twice the cost and with huge chunks of content unavailable to you." There needs to be a middle ground where you can buy a base game (+1-2 cool exclusives) from the KS and then buy reasonably priced expansion content later on. Would help "protect the market" a lot more than just trying to price fix and whatnot.
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Post by: Dysartes
Alpharius wrote:I also wonder when we'll ever find out just what MAPP CMON is going to be setting for everything...!
MRP +5%?
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Post by: ced1106
Schmapdi wrote:To this I would add maybe the reason for this is the ABSURD number of kickstarter exclusives CMON pumps into every KS they do.
I'm waiting for the pig to fly, myself, but it's possible that CMON may reduce or (gasp) end the exclusives for their games.
CMON has certainly made "retail-friendly" changes, ranging from retail-only games (eg. Grizzled, Godfather), to this MAP (it encourages retailer A to carry their product by discouraging retailer B from advertising it on sale). If you followed the Rising Sun KS, you may have noticed the Retailer Pledge policy. CMON removed the EB's from Rising Sun, and said they will do so for Zombicide: Green Horde. For their Game of Thrones miniatures games, they announced retailer-only expansions. Another poster said these changes may have to do with CMON now owned by investors. I'll also add that shipping costs have risen.
Stonemaier Games, with Charterstone, also moved from KS to retailers. So perhaps KS really is, by some companies, being "used as intended".
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Post by: Ernster
Perhaps Kickstarter should limit the number companies like Cmon and Mantic do a year. This would benefit the start up companies that KS was created for in the first place. The listed companies have Monopolized KS as a pre order system and take away funds from those trying to create. This would be a win win for Cmon as they could sell their product at the MAPP price they so desire!
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Post by: Alpharius
Kickstarter has no desire to do this - especially for a company like CMON.
Watch how much the upcoming Zombicide: Green Tide makes Kickstarter...er..CMON!
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Post by: Ernster
@Alpharius, and therin lies the problem. It has removed the Spirit of KS and become Pre order monopoly so we receive wads of cash!. Since they make money they should have insurance for those KS that do not fulfill.
I am fully aware that GreenTide will do well and I hope it does as I will back it too. PP have set prices on their product but I respect them as they also use their own revenue to create more. Yes I know they did a KS but not every other month like Cmon.
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Post by: -Loki-
John Prins wrote: DrNo172000 wrote:
However, let's consider it is. Does that mean the LGS can still survive with a MAP. I'm not so certain, gaming, especially board games and RPGs is growing rapidly. The large chains have begun to notice, Barnes & Nobles host a yearly play day across most of it's stores and many stores have implemented regular board game nights. Board games cafe's are picking up in popularity in the west coast.
A local gaming/sci-fi store supported itself for over a decade by having an in-store restaurant. Gaming cafes are a thing I can see working, much like a bar that runs pool tables to sell drinks.
My FLGS does this. His store was a restaurant and another store beside it. He put a door in the joining wall to connect them, and kept the functioning kitchen from the restaurant. The front of the old restaurant is the retail space, and store next door is all gaming space. He doesn't serve complicated food - burgers, fries, pies, hot dogs, etc. Plus coffee, cold drinks and snacks. Stuff that can be cooked by anyone, so the regular staff can cook food.
Makes a real difference. Rather than stopping to get food on the way there or home, depending on what time you start or finish, you can just order lunch or dinner while gaming, and take 10 minutes out of the game while you eat if you were mid game. That alone makes people spend money at the store they wouldn't have. Also makes it really convenient if you're having a game in the evening.
I wish more stores did it, but I can understand the lack of kitchen space being limiting.
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Post by: ced1106
KS makes wads of cash. There is no problem.
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Post by: TwilightSparkles
Welll it will be interesting to see if this comes to the UK. PP did it with their goods and combined with the press hanger changes and upcoming price changes its decimated the game. The Grymkin release pricing is like s return to the bad old days of GW, £175 for 50 points of badly fitting metal and fubiousresun with a good chance parts are missing? Nope.....
Any retailer I've seen try sell cmon stuff full price in my area either sticks very little of it or has closed. The average KS bundle is the same price as uk retail boxed game!
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Post by: AduroT
PP isn't dieing because of the online pricing, that's more due to the bungled mk3 release and plethora of other Miniatures games around nowadays. I've not seen the prices on the Grym, but I'll definitely disput poor resin and missing parts. Their resin stuff is usually quite top notch, and I've rarely had issues with missing parts and when it does happen replacements are quick and easy.
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Post by: ced1106
Do we have any numbers or articles about how well MAP is doing for gaming and outside of gaming? WotC is doing MAP (?) and Asmodee has a different discount for online vs. brick and mortar (vs. Amazon and Walmart?).
I figure MAP and other price policies best for inelastic customers (I MUST BUY STAR WARS DESTINY) and poorly for elastic customers ("150 miniatures for $100!!!). At least for myself, if I can't get a deep discount for a CMON game at retail, I should have a game from another manufacturer I'll buy when it goes on sale. (I've already stopped buying FFG games.) On the unlikely chance that *all* manufacturers implement price policies, I already have a ton of games in the closet and miniatures to paint -- not to mention free and low-cost games available online. If I play all my games in the closet and paint all my miniatures and can't find any games from the 'net, well, I have two games of my own design I should be working on...
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Post by: Moopy
ced1106 wrote:Schmapdi wrote:To this I would add maybe the reason for this is the ABSURD number of kickstarter exclusives CMON pumps into every KS they do.
I'm waiting for the pig to fly, myself, but it's possible that CMON may reduce or (gasp) end the exclusives for their games.
Considering they just announced that there will be a Kickstarter only huge dragon for the Black Death: Green Horde game, I don't think that's going to happen.
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
I guess I'll remove those Blood Rage and The Others items from my wish list...
The wargaming/big box boardgame market has been well catered to in the last couple of years. For me, that means I'm looking for thinner and thinner reasons to exclude new items from my bloated list of potential purchases. After Rising Sun comes in, it will be even easier for me to get on with not buying CMON products.
Also, did Star Trek Attack Wing initiate a similar policy? Do they really think there are people willing to pay more than $8 on a Vidian ship that looks like a rotten pretzel? I guess they'd rather have warehouses full of unsexy blisters rather than some common sense.
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Post by: Alpharius
If CMON says "MAPP of 25% off retail max", would that really be a big deal?
Sure, they're probably going to come in somewhere around 15% +/- 5%, but...
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
Alpharius wrote:If CMON says "MAPP of 25% off retail max", would that really be a big deal?
Sure, they're probably going to come in somewhere around 15% +/- 5%, but...
The funny thing is, it would. The funnier thing is that I was planning to buy some of the smaller Blood Rage expansions off Amazon for about 10-15% off, not much of a discount at all, because I was so impressed by the CMON minis I was able to acquire at prices so low I can't advertise them. Without that first hit to sweeten all subsequent deals, I'm not as excited about the product and can no longer use the flimsy justification that my Blood Rage purchases taken in total are still at a decent, I-don't-feel-like-a-sucker savings. Include the psychological impact of the company offending my principles essentially insulting me for my preferred purchase habits, and I perceive CMON's minis' value much differently.
Plus grudges save me money.
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
Since the chance of finding any CMON stuff at discount here in the UK is minimal its probably not going to effect me much whatever the number is
It's more the fact that they're planning to get nasty with retailers (and not just online ones although they're no doubt the main target) who want to either do high volume low margin or just dump stuff that failed at their store
and actually the longer they take to put up the price list (I was expecting it within 24 hours of the anouncment since it was 'live' when published) the more I suspect it's going to be either RRP or minimal (10% or less) discount only
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Post by: xevv
 Moopy wrote:ced1106 wrote:Schmapdi wrote:To this I would add maybe the reason for this is the ABSURD number of kickstarter exclusives CMON pumps into every KS they do.
I'm waiting for the pig to fly, myself, but it's possible that CMON may reduce or (gasp) end the exclusives for their games.
Considering they just announced that there will be a Kickstarter only huge dragon for the Black Death: Green Horde game, I don't think that's going to happen.
True they did give you one for the kickstarter that launched few days later, doesnt mean they will keep doing so.
Also Im sure some of you noticed that there was no early backer discount set available for green horde.
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Post by: BrookM
Quite, their stuff is also hard to get by around here, not to mention it being hella expensive in most cases.
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Post by: TheAuldGrump
It increases exposure - serving as advertising, and helps finance products that would otherwise rely on bank loans.
Really, if the company is competent, Kickstarters are a win/win.
It is only when Kickstarters are poorly understood - and provide to many 'goodies' for the money that they are a 'problem' (Chaosium tried to Kickstart themselves to death, for example.)
Companies like Mantic, Reaper, and CMoN relying on Kickstarter is common sense, and each has a firm grasp on just how large or small a margin they will end up with when the KS is completed. Heck, Reaper has a YouTube video on the subject - and why the distance between each stretch goal was getting longer as the Bones I KS continued - essentially.
CMon has had some hugely successful KS, and really have no reason to discontinue the practice.
The Auld Grump
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Post by: Ernster
@The AuldGrump, and as of yet Reaper has not set MAPP pricing. My point is, don't try and tell me you are saving the value of your product by creating MAPP pricing as you make hand over fist in cash.
The latest KS has also increased to $120. $10 increments seem to be the KS pledge levels now.
@ Alpharius 25% MAPP pricing??? Not likely. I will bet more like 10% to 15%.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
CMoN can do what they want. Im just saying there will no longer be impulse purchases from me.
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Post by: Alpharius
Alpharius wrote:If CMON says "MAPP of 25% off retail max", would that really be a big deal?
Sure, they're probably going to come in somewhere around 15% +/- 5%, but...
Ernster wrote:
@ Alpharius 25% MAPP pricing??? Not likely. I will bet more like 10% to 15%.
I...know?
I just wish they'd spill the beans already.
Then we can really complain!
Or not...
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Post by: Digclaw
they put you on a blacklist they give to distributors and tell the distributors not to sell to the stores on the blacklist.
They also did this right before they announced Mk 3. SO maybe they were anticipating stores unloading starters and books before the new edition came out. But they also encouraged retailers to go in for Mk3 3 release bundles, that in some stores fell flat as the new edition did as well. My local store owner is really salty about all the product he got stuck with, that he can't even sell online at a discount for fear of being put on the blacklist. It also made him less likly to order PP product in, which makes it harder to support the store, though I've since stopped playing W/H do to loosing interest.
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Post by: Ernster
@Alpharius, not only are they MAPP pricing but increasing price as well. the Guest box SRP is $30 when the BP guest box was $25.
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Post by: Alpharius
Well, that's not a great sign, but it has probably been a while since CMON had a 'price rise' and they actually just dropped a bunch of pricing by switching to 'unit boxes' for their Dark Age line.
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Post by: TheAuldGrump
Ernster wrote:@The AuldGrump, and as of yet Reaper has not set MAPP pricing. My point is, don't try and tell me you are saving the value of your product by creating MAPP pricing as you make hand over fist in cash.
The latest KS has also increased to $120. $10 increments seem to be the KS pledge levels now.
@ Alpharius 25% MAPP pricing??? Not likely. I will bet more like 10% to 15%.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
CMoN can do what they want. Im just saying there will no longer be impulse purchases from me.
If Reaper implemented a MAPP then I would stop buying anything by them as well.
I refuse to support companies that use that method - even when I like their products, and even on Kickstarter.
The way to tell companies that you do not like what they are doing is to not buy their products - so I do not buy Asmodee.
I do not buy Privateer.
Getting the picture? I am not saying that CMoN will be making less money - I am saying that they will not be getting my money - which is a very different thing.
The Auld Grump
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Post by: Ernster
@AuldGrump, I get the picture, hence, like you I do not purchase from those companies as well.
I don't see why you are arguing or debating me if we both have the same resolution?
In regards to CMoN making less money? Who knows, I'm curious to see their financial report as well as the listed companies we have discussed next year.
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Post by: TheAuldGrump
Ernster wrote:@AuldGrump, I get the picture, hence, like you I do not purchase from those companies as well.
I don't see why you are arguing or debating me if we both have the same resolution?
In regards to CMoN making less money? Who knows, I'm curious to see their financial report as well as the listed companies we have discussed next year.
Because I disagreed on the topic of Kickstarters - not the topic of MAPP.
On MAPP we are agreed, sounds like.
But Kickstarter... is just too good a solution to things that have been a problem since the mid nineties in the gaming industry.
The Auld Grump
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Post by: Ernster
That was my point on KS as well. It is a great solution to help a start up gaming industry. It is now a pre-order for some companies. It is sad as large companies like CMoN take away from the smaller companies that are KSing at the same time. CMoN is a great company with fantastic products.
I just see it as a money grab with MAPP as an excuse. I know, I know, they are a company and it is their right. Its just that affordable games with great miniatures are starting to become...less affordable.
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Post by: ced1106
Ernster wrote: It is sad as large companies like CMoN take away from the smaller companies that are KSing at the same time.
Do you have any numbers to back you up???
Because here's what James Mathe says about KS vs. IGG. You assume that KS is a zero-sum gain, but that would then mean that small companies should use IGG vs. KS. Except that James Mathe said he made as much money on *one* day on KS than he did for an entire campaign on IGG. Also, if CMON's taking all the money away from small companies, why are small companies still using them? IGG isn't *exactly* the same as KS, but it's close enough, and even the Russian miniatures KS said she used IGG only because KS does not yet allow projects from Russia. That certainly suggests that she wanted her small company to use KS. Why would she want to do that if CMON was taking away all the money?
http://www.jamesmathe.com/indie-no-go/
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
What does the crowdfunding platform have to do with anything?
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Post by: Ernster
@Ced, I did not say that KS was a zero sum gain. My point was that It has become a pre order system for CMoN. Yes some small companies have held off a KS when CMoN has a KS during the same time period.
My point about the crowd funding is. CMoN does not need it and can fund their own product with their own revenue. I get they want to MAPP, cool. Impulse buys will now no longer be done by me.
@BobtheInquisitor, Crowdfunding is great.
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
I mean, what does the fact that people don't use Indiegogo have to do with how much Kickstarter is a zero sum game? Those are completely unrelated. If I pledge too much on a CMON game to pledge for any other game (on KS or not), it's not like Indiegogo will spot me some extra cash.
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Post by: BigDaddio
Might be that they haven't edited their site yet, but Miniature Market still has CMON products at the same discount as before (I checked the Wrath of Kings line, all currently still 20% off suggested retail price). Will keep an eye on it over the next few days and see if any change.
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Post by: Ernster
@ BigDaddio, June 5th is the deadline.
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Post by: Alpharius
Every time there's a new post in here, I think that CMON has finally posted their MAPP guidelines...
What the heck is taking them so long?!?
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Post by: Theophony
Alpharius wrote:Every time there's a new post in here, I think that CMON has finally posted their MAPP guidelines...
What the heck is taking them so long?!?
 they are busy watching the Green Horde Kickstarter. It's been mentioned in the comments a few times there now too.
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Post by: BigDaddio
Ah, whoops. I was thinking today was the deadline.
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Post by: Ernster
@BigDaddio, It might as well be. Almost all ZBP stuff from online distributors is sold out.
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
We have MAPPs https://cmon.com/assets/CMON_MAPP_Price_List.pdf a quick scan and it looks like most (all?) are 15% off recommended retail Automatically Appended Next Post: So not as bad as i'd originally feared, but not as good as I'd hoped on the MAPP
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Post by: Piston Honda
More or less the savings will cover shipping.
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Post by: LunarSol
Which is still quite a bit when you consider how easy it generally is to get free shipping and how much you save in not paying sales tax.
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Post by: Piston Honda
LunarSol wrote:
Which is still quite a bit when you consider how easy it generally is to get free shipping and how much you save in not paying sales tax.
My store generally knocks off the sales tax for the frequent customer.
So I'm pretty set here.
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Post by: Digclaw
Brick and Mortar stores shouldn't have to worry as long as they don't advertise their prices.
CMoN isn't going to pull the old Nintendo trick of sending scouts out to stores to check the prices on shelves.
Also my local store discounts at the register, not usually on the product.
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Post by: xevv
Shouldnt alpharius have been here rejoicing to finally see numbers by now?
Anyway its pretty much what was to be expected imo.
I havent bought any non KS cmon stuff yet so I guess it doesnt really effect me much.
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Post by: Alpharius
I'm here!
And ok with 15% off max!
Hopefully this gets more (any?) online stores stocking Dark Age now too...
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
Why would it get more stores to stock it instead of fewer stores?
Doesn't this turn any single deadweight range in the CMON catalogue into a Kobayashi Maru for the retailers, who can either hold onto dead stock or liquidate it and lose out on any further successful CMON products?
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Post by: AduroT
With GW's 15% and now CMON's 15% I wonder if PP might move more towards that number vs their current ~10%. What are the other companies' numbers?
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Post by: Schmapdi
 AduroT wrote:With GW's 15% and now CMON's 15% I wonder if PP might move more towards that number vs their current ~10%. What are the other companies' numbers?
Are you sure they haven't already? I think Miniature Market upped their discount to 15% a few months ago.
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Post by: AduroT
Schmapdi wrote: AduroT wrote:With GW's 15% and now CMON's 15% I wonder if PP might move more towards that number vs their current ~10%. What are the other companies' numbers?
Are you sure they haven't already? I think Miniature Market upped their discount to 15% a few months ago.
Well, I wouldn't take MM's prices on their stuff as the official given they've made a vocal habit of violating it since day one.
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Post by: Alpharius
Looks like there's still a few ways to sell CMON stuff for whatever price you want, including the always popular "see price in cart!" option...
https://cmon.com/mapp
BRAND PROTECTION POLICY AND GUIDELINES (MAPP)
CMON, Inc.
Brand Protection Policy and Guidelines
CMON, Inc. (“CMON”) has unilaterally adopted this Minimum Advertised Pricing Policy effective June 1, 2017, applicable to its customers’ advertising of certain CMON products. CMON believes that by unilaterally imposing restrictions on the minimum prices advertised by our distribution and retail partners, we can enhance our customer’s perceived value of the CMON brand, and that serves the best interests of our consumers, retailers, and distributors.
1. NO RESTRICTION ON PRICING. This MAP Policy does not apply in any way restrict our customers’ selling price. Our Customers may sell any or all CMON products, including the MAP products, at any price they choose.
2. MAP POLICY. CMON customers may not advertise or otherwise promote CMON Products at a net Advertised Price lower than 15% below CMON’s MAPP Price List (“MAPP Price”). For the purposes of this Policy, “net Advertised Price” means the stated Advertised Price reduced by the value of any associated discount, coupon, frequent buyer points, allowance, or incentive (whether in the form of a special event, promotion, term of doing business or otherwise) that translates into an immediate price reduction, where the cumulative effect would be to reduce the advertised price of any MAP product. A customer violates this MAP policy if it resells MAP products to sellers whose Advertised Prices do not comply with this MAP policy.
3. DEFINITION “ADVERTISED PRICE”. This MAP Policy is applicable to all “Advertised Prices” for the MAP Products. An “Advertised Price” is defined as the Price for a product shown on the Internet in response to a web browser search or on a customer home page, content on a webpage within the customer’s site or domain, or, if the customer is conducting e-commerce through a third-party site or domain, content on the third-party sites or domains. “Advertised Price” includes prices listed in broadcast e-mails or placement of ads on any other internet sites, including destination pages and third party sites, shopping sites and auction sites, including banner advertisements. The price shown in printed advertising materials including catalogs, ads, flyers, rotos, posters, coupons, mailers, inserts, newspapers, magazines, mail order, internet or similar electronic media including websites, forums, email newsletters, email solicitations, television, radio, and public signage. Website features such as an automatic price display for any items prior to being placed in a customer's shopping bag, Click-for-Price, automated bounce-back pricing emails, pre-formatted email responses, and other similar features are communications initiated by the reseller (rather than by the customer) and constitute an Advertised Price under this MAP policy. An “Advertised Price” does not include the price a customer receives in response for a “Call for Price,” “E-mail a price,” or “See checkout for price” feature on a website, or the prices shown on in-store displays or on products in the store.
4. BUNDLING. Where CMON products are bundled with or sold as part of a package that includes other products (whether or not manufactured by CMON) it shall be a violation of this MAP policy to sell or advertise the bundle (or package) at a price that: (a) is lower than the total MAP price of the CMON product(s) or (b) violates the letter or spirit of the MAP policy. Bundling CMON may also be prohibited by your Terms of Distribution.
5. EXCEPTIONS. It shall not be a violation of this MAP policy to advertise in general that the reseller has "the lowest prices" or will match or beat its competitors' prices, or to use similar phrases; so long as the reseller does not include any advertised price below MAP and otherwise complies with this MAP policy.
6. REMEDIES. CMON reserves the right to take such action as it deems necessary and reasonable to assure compliance with this policy. Any violation of this agreement may result in termination of your right to purchase CMON product, suspension of payment terms, acceleration of payment obligations, elimination of discounts, and/or exclusion from all special programs until further notice.
7. CONSTRUCTION. No policy can cover every possible scenario or situation that might arise. Accordingly, it shall be applied by CMON in its sole reasonable discretion to address actions designed to thwart the spirit that may not absolutely violate the ambit of its language. For example, a customer could create a ploy by soliciting “group sales” at a discounted price to advertise a price outside of the MAP policy. This would be interpreted by CMON as a MAP policy violation and subject the customer to appropriate remedies.
8. NO NEGOTIATION. CMON has adopted this MAP Policy unilaterally and neither seeks nor accepts any input, confirmation or assurance of compliance by its customers with this MAP policy. MAP will not discuss or negotiate any of the terms of this Policy. Nothing in this policy shall constitute an agreement between CMON and any of its customers that the customer will comply with this MAP Policy. All matters of the interpretation and application of the terms of this Policy shall remain within the sole, unilateral authority of CMON. Direct questions regarding this policy to wholesale@cmon.com.
9. POLICY UPDATES & PRICE LIST. CMON reserves the right to amend, suspend, or modify, the terms of this MAP policy at any time in its sole discretion. The most recent version of this MAP policy is available at www.cmon.com/mapp. Frequently asked questions are answered at www.cmon.com/mapp- faq. The most recent version of the MAPP Price List is available at www.cmon.com/mapp-prices.
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Post by: AduroT
Randomly I was just reminded Steamforged also caps their discount at 10%.
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
Wait. Will this affect Sedition Wars blowout sales, too
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
Only for doors. Because nobody wants them. Especially yours.
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Post by: DrNo172000
Just read an excellent blog about the legal side of this stuff and thought I'd share it here.
https://www.theantitrustattorney.com/2014/10/02/classic-antitrust-cases-leegin-resale-price-maintenance-agreements/
It seems that if any of these companies instituting a MAP policy don't have their ducks in a row they can be slapped down by the courts, in the case that someone decides to sue.
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
We're in crazy town now because I did manage to give them away. To someone who wanted them, even.
Probably because the terrain set is the only Sedition Wars KS product that never hit blowout prices.
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Post by: Theophony
Miniaturemarket still has the Zombicide stuff at 20-30% so I guess we will see how this goes.
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Post by: Mymearan
 Piston Honda wrote: LunarSol wrote:
Which is still quite a bit when you consider how easy it generally is to get free shipping and how much you save in not paying sales tax.
My store generally knocks off the sales tax for the frequent customer.
So I'm pretty set here.
That would be pretty sweet over here considering our sales tax is 25%
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