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Post by: Audustum
WE HAVE NEW RULES AS OF A MARCH 2019 WHITE DWARF! DISCUSSION OF THOSE BEGINS ON PAGE 3!
OLD INDEX POST:
So how are all our assassin users feeling about the changes? I am loving the cost decrease and the Vindicare seems to have had his three ammos rolled into one shot.
I am not sure it's really practical, but I am laughing at the idea of taking a Battalion and putting 6 Vindicares in the Elite slots to be a 'gunline'.
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Post by: dan2026
Assassins seem dirt cheap now and without losing much of their combat effectiveness.
Hell they dont even have to pay for their guns like most units do.
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Post by: casvalremdeikun
The Culexus remains a beast. Cheap as chips now too. The Animus Speculum shreds T4 units. The fact it has double the shots just for being near a psyker is awesome. Overall, I am quite pleased with this guy. Totally worth a -1 CP to fit him into my army (Honour Guard eat up a lot of slots!).
The Vindicare is quite good as well. It used to be that he was a bit overpriced, but he will wreck Characters. 72" range and wounds Infantry on a 2+. Very nice.
The Eversor will,more often than not, succeed on the charge. And when he does, 8 attacks with either of his CC weapons will be nuts.
The Callidus is going to lay down some serious hurt with the neural shredder. It can also start closer to the enemy than most other units. The Phase Sword is downright mean. Basically, if they have a 4+ or worse, they're dead.
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Post by: ZergSmasher
 casvalremdeikun wrote:The Culexus remains a beast. Cheap as chips now too. The Animus Speculum shreds T4 units. The fact it has double the shots just for being near a psyker is awesome. Overall, I am quite pleased with this guy. Totally worth a -1 CP to fit him into my army (Honour Guard eat up a lot of slots!).
The Vindicare is quite good as well. It used to be that he was a bit overpriced, but he will wreck Characters. 72" range and wounds Infantry on a 2+. Very nice.
The Eversor will,more often than not, succeed on the charge. And when he does, 8 attacks with either of his CC weapons will be nuts.
The Callidus is going to lay down some serious hurt with the neural shredder. It can also start closer to the enemy than most other units. The Phase Sword is downright mean. Basically, if they have a 4+ or worse, they're dead.
Well, gak. Now I'm gonna have to pick up Assassinorum: Execution Force from my FLGS. It'll be worth it though, 'cuz I love Assassins and the models from that game are amazing!
As for fielding the Assassins, do you have to take them as an auxiliary thingy (with -1 Command Point), or are you allowed to take them in, say, a Space Marine detachment as an Elites choice (because of shared keyword Imperium)? I wasn't clear on how that all works.
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Post by: casvalremdeikun
You can take them in an Elite Slot for any Imperium army. I have 6 Elites in a Battalion Detachment, so I had to take an Auxiliary to fit my Culexus.
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Post by: Alessander
There's no limit to how many you can take either. Feel like 2, 3 or 6 Eversors in a Batallion? Go for it!
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Post by: godardc
I am disappointed by the new Callidus, but overall I'm very pleased !
I loved all her rules, she is the only one who lost, who get nerfed.
Looking forward trying them in 8th soon
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Post by: casvalremdeikun
 godardc wrote:I am disappointed by the new Callidus, but overall I'm very pleased !
I loved all her rules, she is the only one who lost, who get nerfed.
Looking forward trying them in 8th soon
How was the Callidus Nerfed? She has a much greater chance than the other Assassins to successfully Charge on Turn 1. I guess I didn't follow her rules too much, what did she lose?
In other news, I am going to need to get an Eversor and Callidus. Complete the whole set!
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Post by: Trickstick
Guardsmen here, I am rather liking the new Eversor. I have had one since second edition and it has pretty much never been used. When codex: assassins came out I got an Eversor and my friend got a Vindicare. Every time new assassin rules came out since then, I have always given the Eversor a look. He has been the worst assassin pretty much every time, whilst the vindicare has been the best or second best.
However, I think that a single Eversor has some decent uses now. With the 9" infiltration and frenzon, he has a 74% chance to make a 9" charge, with burning a CP reroll increasing that if failed. He also has the killing power to kill most mid range characters in one go, or hang around the enemies back field, messing stuff up or diverting enemy forces to deal with him. All for a rather small amount of points. He is like some sort of super Marbo, I actually know several people who are just going to use their Marbo models to represent him.
All in all, I'm looking forward to using an Eversor to do what they are meant to do in the fluff: turn up, cause a load of terror and slaughter, mess with the enemies plans and then explode in something's face.
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Post by: casvalremdeikun
Well, I decided to take out the Culexus in my army and put in an Eversor. I can't wait for Marbo Jr. to show up and cause mayhem. If he doesn't pan out, I have the spare points to slide the Culexus back in with almost no work.
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Post by: Slayer-Fan123
I really like the Vindicare but there's no way to just throw a single one in my Necrons list. Which totally sucks. I have one converted from a Deathmark.
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Post by: Kithail
Are assassins elite choices for any imperium army? Or just AM?
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Post by: RegulusBlack
Imperium, so they can be the elite slot for Dark Angels, Grey Knights, Space Wolves, Guard, Sisters, etc.
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Post by: PUFNSTUF
So if I am wanting a melee beatstick that can get a turn one charge, is the Eversor or the Callidus better? To me they both seem very similar. One will start closer, other can charge farther. Eversor has more attacks, but the Callidus ignores both saves basically, or at best a regular 5+. Thoughts?
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Post by: casvalremdeikun
I didn't notice this before, but a Culexus no longer hinders allied psykers, but can be powered up by them, nonetheless. That is really good if you want to run a Culexus alongside Grey Knights.
@PUFNSTUF, the Callidus is probably better in most cases, though an Eversor is decidedly better at cracking transports to get to the juicy Infantry centers. The Eversor also has a pretty nice pistol that it will be able to shoot in the shooting phase even while in combat.
Also, since most other armies saw a price increase, it will definitely be easier to fit an Eversor in an army than a Callidus.
For me, I am going Eversor.
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Post by: Trickstick
PUFNSTUF wrote:So if I am wanting a melee beatstick that can get a turn one charge, is the Eversor or the Callidus better? To me they both seem very similar. One will start closer, other can charge farther. Eversor has more attacks, but the Callidus ignores both saves basically, or at best a regular 5+. Thoughts?
Eversor is slightly cheaper, and has the word "Panic" written on the back in large, unfriendly letters.
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Post by: Aetare
Eversor looks fun for just scaring a blob of infantry, but my Vindicare is going to have a ball dealing with enemy characters.
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Post by: Crazyterran
The Eversor and Callidus both have high points, and the Callidus has a chance to force enemies to spend extra cp on the first turn, when the most things are on the board.
The Eversor has a strong chance on making the 3d6 charge, and if you throw him at a big blob of things you want to be tied up for a turn or two, its a good choice. Especially since you choose when to reveal him.
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Post by: PUFNSTUF
 Crazyterran wrote:The Eversor and Callidus both have high points, and the Callidus has a chance to force enemies to spend extra cp on the first turn, when the most things are on the board.
The Eversor has a strong chance on making the 3d6 charge, and if you throw him at a big blob of things you want to be tied up for a turn or two, its a good choice. Especially since you choose when to reveal him.
Pretty sure you can choose when to reveal for both? Callidus has a strong chance of making a charge too since on average he will appear 6-7" away.
Thanks for all the comments so far. In regards to the Culexus, I find it a bit odd he doesn't really have a melee weapon.
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Post by: bogalubov
Unless taking them in high numbers, I'm not quite sure about their utility.
The vindicare can't kill most characters with one shot as his weapon does d3 wounds, but most characters have 4 or more wounds.
The eversor will get 3-4 wounds in combat against guardsmen, maybe 2-3 against marines (who'll still get a save by the way). Then the rest of the survivors beat him to death with his 4+ save. Or walk away from him and unload the next turn.
The callidus will kill maybe 2 with the neural shredder and then 2-3 in combat before suffering the fate of the eversor.
The cullexus is probably the most survivable by being only hit on 6s. But his turn by turn damage output is pretty low.
Am I missing something that would make them good?
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Post by: casvalremdeikun
PUFNSTUF wrote: Crazyterran wrote:The Eversor and Callidus both have high points, and the Callidus has a chance to force enemies to spend extra cp on the first turn, when the most things are on the board.
The Eversor has a strong chance on making the 3d6 charge, and if you throw him at a big blob of things you want to be tied up for a turn or two, its a good choice. Especially since you choose when to reveal him.
Pretty sure you can choose when to reveal for both? Callidus has a strong chance of making a charge too since on average he will appear 6-7" away.
Thanks for all the comments so far. In regards to the Culexus, I find it a bit odd he doesn't really have a melee weapon.
Culexus doesn't need weapons. He ignores armor altogether.
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Post by: PUFNSTUF
casvalremdeikun wrote:PUFNSTUF wrote: Crazyterran wrote:The Eversor and Callidus both have high points, and the Callidus has a chance to force enemies to spend extra cp on the first turn, when the most things are on the board.
The Eversor has a strong chance on making the 3d6 charge, and if you throw him at a big blob of things you want to be tied up for a turn or two, its a good choice. Especially since you choose when to reveal him.
Pretty sure you can choose when to reveal for both? Callidus has a strong chance of making a charge too since on average he will appear 6-7" away.
Thanks for all the comments so far. In regards to the Culexus, I find it a bit odd he doesn't really have a melee weapon.
Culexus doesn't need weapons. He ignores armor altogether.
Yes but I mean is he punching stuff with his fists then? Pretty funny if he's more Killy that way than assassins with swords haha.
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Post by: Aetare
PUFNSTUF wrote: casvalremdeikun wrote:PUFNSTUF wrote: Crazyterran wrote:The Eversor and Callidus both have high points, and the Callidus has a chance to force enemies to spend extra cp on the first turn, when the most things are on the board.
The Eversor has a strong chance on making the 3d6 charge, and if you throw him at a big blob of things you want to be tied up for a turn or two, its a good choice. Especially since you choose when to reveal him.
Pretty sure you can choose when to reveal for both? Callidus has a strong chance of making a charge too since on average he will appear 6-7" away.
Thanks for all the comments so far. In regards to the Culexus, I find it a bit odd he doesn't really have a melee weapon.
Culexus doesn't need weapons. He ignores armor altogether.
Yes but I mean is he punching stuff with his fists then? Pretty funny if he's more Killy that way than assassins with swords haha.
I think he's assumed to be using his Animus Speculum, but for fluff's sake I'm only ever going to envision him just punching things to death. So thank you for that, truly. 
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Post by: Spartacus
Vindicare got a significant increase in firepower and durability (no longer targetable unless closest), as well as a big points cost reduction.
Culexus toned down a fraction but now inter-operable with friendly psykers, and increased area of effect, also cheaper.
Both these guys are the big time winners.
The other two look like suicide bombers to me, their value dependant on what they can charge. Definitely effective at it, but the tactic is pretty easy to screen away with blocking units.
Would definitely take the 2 melee assassins vs certain armies if I knew I would be facing off against them, but against certain lists/armies they might be a flop. The Culexus and Vindicare on the other hand would be great against anyone (except knights maybe).
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Post by: Mavnas
The Vindecare is now actually suitable for trying to kill characters with invuln saves (previously he could either only wound on a 4+ to ignore their save, or wound on a 2+ but deal with invuln saves). He can't pick off special weapons in squads anymore though (Which was previously the thing he did best).
Interestingly enough now his biggest struggles will be with 2+ armor saves (they still get 5+ against him) and things that can afford to lose D3 wounds and shrug. I imagine he'd work best in pair or more or with some other snipers to finish the job.
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Post by: Godeskian
Have you considered the Lone Vindicare's utility in slaying the one and two wound support hq that a lot of armies field. Crypteks, Warlocks, things of that nature? I don't think he'll turn the tide of battle, but he can be amazingly disruptive to an enemies back line
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Post by: ThePie
I think using vindicares in pairs are the best method to use them. And vindicares will be amazing against orks and guards especially, pick off thier commisars or warbosses and thier hordes crumble easily
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Post by: Trickstick
 ThePie wrote:I think using vindicares in pairs are the best method to use them. And vindicares will be amazing against orks and guards especially, pick off thier commisars or warbosses and thier hordes crumble easily
Using more than one assassin feels fluff-wrong though. )-:
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Post by: Haveatya
Why? There are stories of sending 4 or more to assassinate specific targets, often they are mixed. I don't see any reason why two callidus or culexus or vindicares are sent somewhere. Eversor are a bit nuts so maybe not but in game they'd be terrifying.
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Post by: Trickstick
Haveatya wrote:Why? There are stories of sending 4 or more to assassinate specific targets, often they are mixed. I don't see any reason why two callidus or culexus or vindicares are sent somewhere. Eversor are a bit nuts so maybe not but in game they'd be terrifying.
Yeah but using more than one assassin at once is an incredibly rare event. There is a reason their special rule is "Independent Operative".
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Post by: Haveatya
Problem with assassin is the way that charging puts you at a disadvantage unless you destroy more than 50% of the enemy squad on the charge. I'd rather receive a charge or use them to try and snipe out a one or two wound hq or vehicle in late game. Reserve them for a QRF later. I like doing this because with that and gate of infinity i can 'deepstrike' 2 units late game to advantageous positions.
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Post by: C.Straken
I used a Vindicare and Eversor against Nids recently. The Vindicare was mediocre at best (to be expected against nids).
The Eversor turned up turn 1 in a small gap and charged his Exorcrine then holding it up for three turns, along with his warriors and warrior prime. He took several Wounds of each unit before dying and doing more mortal Wounds to all three units, kilking his prime and finishing a warrior off. Well worth the points paid.
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Post by: Trickstick
C.Straken wrote:I used a Vindicare and Eversor against Nids recently. The Vindicare was mediocre at best (to be expected against nids).
The Eversor turned up turn 1 in a small gap and charged his Exorcrine then holding it up for three turns, along with his warriors and warrior prime. He took several Wounds of each unit before dying and doing more mortal Wounds to all three units, kilking his prime and finishing a warrior off. Well worth the points paid.
That seems to be the best use for an Eversor. Turn up, make a lot of trouble and then die. It is pretty good as he is the joint cheapest option.
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Post by: C.Straken
 Trickstick wrote:C.Straken wrote:I used a Vindicare and Eversor against Nids recently. The Vindicare was mediocre at best (to be expected against nids).
The Eversor turned up turn 1 in a small gap and charged his Exorcrine then holding it up for three turns, along with his warriors and warrior prime. He took several Wounds of each unit before dying and doing more mortal Wounds to all three units, kilking his prime and finishing a warrior off. Well worth the points paid.
That seems to be the best use for an Eversor. Turn up, make a lot of trouble and then die. It is pretty good as he is the joint cheapest option.
Completely agree, either tie up a heavy Weapon squad, squishy chatacter, basically anything your opponent wants to be shooting and yoi don't want to be shot with. And when he dies, as long as he is combat he is still dangerous.
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Post by: Ratius
The Eversor turned up turn 1 in a small gap and charged his Exorcrine then holding it up for three turns,
Could the Exo not have retreated and something else then blow the Eversor away? Or counter charge into him?
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Post by: C.Straken
 Ratius wrote:The Eversor turned up turn 1 in a small gap and charged his Exorcrine then holding it up for three turns,
Could the Exo not have retreated and something else then blow the Eversor away? Or counter charge into him?
He considered it every time, but assumed as he couldn't shoot the turn he retreated and with his Prime and Warriors joining in along with its 3, 2D attacks he would go down pretty quick. Turns out he fluffed alot of Rolls and my 12CP came in plenty handy.
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Post by: Ratius
Sorry I meant another unit (not the Exo) shooting the Eversor. Like a big unit of termagants or the warriors with devourers or something?
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Post by: C.Straken
He could, but he thought keeping the Exorcrine in combat would help out his warriors (with lash and sword) which he had kept back as counter Assault. I'm sure it wont happen next time, but even holding the Exorcrine for one turn was worth the points.
It honestly came down to underestimating the Eversors ability to survive in combat.
Plus I had slaughtered his two units of 20 Gaunts before the Tervigon could revive them. The only thing he had nearby that could have shot him was his Hive Guard unless he started turning around and breaking up his advance more than he already had due to bikes and Inceptors hitting one flank, the Eversor on the opposite and my main army in the middle.
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Post by: Trickstick
Just out of interest, does anyone have any advice on when to use the power sword and when to use the neurogauntlet with the eversor? I'm guessing you use the gauntlet against high toughness or low save opponents but does anyone know the values where you would use the sword?
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Post by: craggy
Trickstick wrote:Haveatya wrote:Why? There are stories of sending 4 or more to assassinate specific targets, often they are mixed. I don't see any reason why two callidus or culexus or vindicares are sent somewhere. Eversor are a bit nuts so maybe not but in game they'd be terrifying.
Yeah but using more than one assassin at once is an incredibly rare event. There is a reason their special rule is "Independent Operative".
Very true, but a huge rift just opened up in the middle of the galaxy. The Officio Assassinorum felt it better to reassign their operatives in the field to my Imperial commander in the thick of it, than try and get them home quickly through dangerous warp storms.
I'd actually forgot I had three of the Assassins (never bought a Callidus) until raking through my old Blood Angels today. Had been planning on a Scout squad to pick off characters, and they might still be a good option, but I'll definitely be taking the Vindicare out for some trips too. "Targeted and firing"
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Post by: Trickstick
Oh yeah, I'm all for just fluffing stuff until it works. My favourite go-to is "bureaucratic error". I just don't think I would field more than one, I like the idea of a unique assassin.
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Post by: niv-mizzet
Trickstick wrote:Just out of interest, does anyone have any advice on when to use the power sword and when to use the neurogauntlet with the eversor? I'm guessing you use the gauntlet against high toughness or low save opponents but does anyone know the values where you would use the sword?
The only times I'm seeing the sword beat the gauntlet are like t3 4+ armor no invuln targets.
Gauntlet seems better in almost all situations other than those. Land raider for example, every sword hit has an 11% chance to get through, while every gauntlet hit has an 18%. (These calcs are assuming you hit, since nothing differs on to hit between the two weapons, I didn't include that step. Real wound chances are slightly smaller on both.) Against rhino equiv's (t6-7 good armor no invuln,) the weapons both wound 27.77 % of their hits. The gauntlet wins against meq as well 44 % to 41 % from the sword.
I haven't done exhaustive research obviously, but if the gaunt is ever wounding easier than the sword, if the target has an invuln, or if the target has just a bleh save, it's the obvious choice as a general rule.
Also more save rolls instead of a couple hard saves means they can abuse cp less with the 1/phase limit. Small factor, but there. So if you're not sure, I'd probably just throw the gaunt.
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Post by: Godeskian
So funny story, set up a Vindicare in cover, watched him achieve next to nothing as my opponent had a dark eldar parking lot. Not many characters to gun down and the Exitus Rifle is.....okay.....i guess..... against vehicles.
Oh well, lesson learned.
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Post by: casvalremdeikun
Godeskian wrote:So funny story, set up a Vindicare in cover, watched him achieve next to nothing as my opponent had a dark eldar parking lot. Not many characters to gun down and the Exitus Rifle is.....okay.....i guess..... against vehicles.
Oh well, lesson learned.
Did you have nothing to pop their vehicles to expose the soft centers?
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Post by: Godeskian
casvalremdeikun wrote:Godeskian wrote:So funny story, set up a Vindicare in cover, watched him achieve next to nothing as my opponent had a dark eldar parking lot. Not many characters to gun down and the Exitus Rifle is.....okay.....i guess..... against vehicles.
Oh well, lesson learned.
Did you have nothing to pop their vehicles to expose the soft centers?
I was genuinely surprised at how hard it was to crack an army filled with nothing but raiders and venoms within the limitations of what I own Grey Knight wise. Between flicker fields on the venoms and the night fighting making everything harder to hit, it was tough going.
Imma need to buy more dreadnoughts, or aquire landraiders or stormravens
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Post by: Doctoralex
I do miss the Turbo-penetrator round on the Vindicare's....
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Post by: Shandara
The Exitus Rifle seems mediocre against anything but Infantry. Having only S5 makes it hard to get any value out of him.
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Post by: 0604854
I am currently planning an army with 18 Assassins! Here are my thoughts:
Vindicare- Generally is very situational, vs monstrous characters not great, against mechanised lists not great. The problem is I forsee that most lists will be mechanised.
Callidus- Potentially good as she can cause mortal wounds with her Neural Shredder and can deal with heavily armoured infantry with her phase sword (e.g. Terminators), the Polymorphine is useful for potentially getting behind advancing bubble raps.
Eversor- 1 st turn assault, and have 6 Wounds and 4++ so is tougher than you think, for the cost is probably point for point one of the best models for killing marines in combat.
Culexus- I am really unsure about this guy, some of abilities are psyker focused so are situational, ignoring all armour saves is great but only has 4 attacks, basically has invisibility making him really awkward for the enemy to deal with. For me this guy is someone who can hold up units and absorb alot of firepower, they could be great objective snatchers as they will be difficult to shift. Overall I am just unsure whether he is worth it compared with the others, out of my 18 I my include a few but the main focus will be Callidus and Eversor.
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Post by: Audustum
The problem for any assassin list will be high Toughness models. Last couple times I used them, they struggled a lot to hurt T6+ monsters and vehicles. Might want 1 ally (like a Knight Atrapos) to deal with those.
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Post by: 0604854
18 assassins leaves about 600-700 pts, I need some Hq's for Vanugard detachments, the problem is I need 18 units to allow me to deepstike all my units.
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Post by: Rihgu
Commissars and Conscripts. Each unit of 20 costs 60pts so while it won't get you to 18, it will get you close!
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Post by: Haveatya
Inquisitors are cheap at 55 base and can be psykers. Psy-inquisitor spam with hammers for some nice S6 3 damage hits. Plus smite everything. Take 6 of these with some kit and put 6 Assassins with each pair. A plenty of CPs from all those Vanguards (+3 total) and 3 for battle forge for 6 total.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
After looking at it battlescribe you could do some pretty dirty things with this list. A bunch of vindicares to snipe HQs. Deepstrike your culexus assassins in as targets for ranged shooting or vs strong melee units because of 6s to hit and armor ignore. Eversors hunt High T and high W because of Melta bombs and mortal wounds on death. Callidus assassins are your QRF. I am not sure I would run Callidus in this list though, other 3 seem way stronger unless I am missing something.
My list is 2000 exactly with 6 Cul, Vind, and Eversor and 6 nemesis hammer psyker inquisitors. 4 with inferno pistols, 1 with bolt pistol and 1 with a needle pistol.
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Post by: 0604854
Haveatya wrote:Inquisitors are cheap at 55 base and can be psykers. Psy-inquisitor spam with hammers for some nice S6 3 damage hits. Plus smite everything. Take 6 of these with some kit and put 6 Assassins with each pair. A plenty of CPs from all those Vanguards (+3 total) and 3 for battle forge for 6 total.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
After looking at it battlescribe you could do some pretty dirty things with this list. A bunch of vindicares to snipe HQs. Deepstrike your culexus assassins in as targets for ranged shooting or vs strong melee units because of 6s to hit and armor ignore. Eversors hunt High T and high W because of Melta bombs and mortal wounds on death. Callidus assassins are your QRF. I am not sure I would run Callidus in this list though, other 3 seem way stronger unless I am missing something.
My list is 2000 exactly with 6 Cul, Vind, and Eversor and 6 nemesis hammer psyker inquisitors. 4 with inferno pistols, 1 with bolt pistol and 1 with a needle pistol.
My problem with Vindicare's is that they are situational, If you opponent deploys a character in a vehicle, is not infantry or is deployed right behind something that blocks line of sight then the Vindicare becomes much less useful. The Callidus allows you potential get in behind bubble wraps as they can be close than 9". I think the Culexus as an anti elite unit could work on review as they just soak up damage. I think Eversors should be the core of the force high T targets are the meta at the moment so I think they will certainly be first choice.
Also 6 Vindicares is very much overkill 2-3 should get the job done
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Post by: U02dah4
Since assassins have been around there's always been a way of fielding all 4. 40k is a huge universe therefore rare events happen somewhere in it.
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Post by: 0604854
Ok so looking at cheap options to get up to the number of units so all my units can deepstike:
The Tauros Assault vehicle- cheap and really fast but forgeworld have stopped making.
Heavy Weapons teams- with mortars dirty cheap and easy to hide.
I have just seen the Cyclops demolition vehicle rules- it looks hilarious!
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Post by: U02dah4
0604854 wrote:18 assassins leaves about 600-700 pts, I need some Hq's for Vanugard detachments, the problem is I need 18 units to allow me to deepstike all my units.
Since your running 18 assassin's your clearly not above cheese -so here's what you do
Pick Cheap HQ to preference Primaris Psycker, Inquisitor guard company comander purely as a distraction
Then read the undersized unit rule. It's in each index and the main rulebook
Abuse the undersized unit rule
1 unit of 1 scout
1 unit if 1 conscript
1 unit of 1Veteran
1 unit of 1 vanguard
1 unit of 1 ranger
1 fenrisian Wolf
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Post by: Bigfashizzel
I swapped my 2x Vindicare for 2x Eversor and had much better results against Dark Eldar.
I think it's critical to pick the appropriate Assassin.
Eversor => Bikes/Vehicles
Culexus => Psykers / w.e
Vindicare => Infantry Heroes
Callidus => ???
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Post by: Trickstick
Callidus seems best against elite armies. It has -3ap, ignores invulnerables and can inflict mortal wounds. If the enemy doesn't bubble wrap it can get close to good targets too. And it can force the enemy to spend and extra cp, something elite armies don't get as much of.
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Post by: Audustum
The only problem I ran into with the Callidus (trying her for 2 games now) was that she's wounding most targets on 5's. Seriously dampened her effectiveness.
I was fighting Daemons and Tyranids though.
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Post by: Bigfashizzel
The Eversor even rerolls failed wounds when it uses the NeuroGauntlet. Meaning that against t5 he's hittin on 2s, wounding on 4s, rerolling,
That averages to a little over 5 wounds right?
If the Neural Shredder was a flamer and she had the 6 attacks I could imagine paying up for her. (70 vs 80). Otherwise it feels like a no-brainer to take the Eversor. He even has one more wound.. and explodes.
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Post by: Haveatya
Eversor seems like a really solid option for general lists. Culexus should be in lists without a lot of psyker support.
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Post by: Kingsley
Trickstick wrote:Just out of interest, does anyone have any advice on when to use the power sword and when to use the neurogauntlet with the eversor? I'm guessing you use the gauntlet against high toughness or low save opponents but does anyone know the values where you would use the sword?
The gauntlet is better than the sword against most basic units you'll find - Marines, Orks, and Guardsmen.
The sword is better against T3 4+ save models, Terminators, and things with T6-7 (actually the sword and gauntlet are equal vs. the common T6/7 3+ save vehicle profile, but the sword's profile is more favorable for potential rerolls).
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Post by: 3orangewhips
I played a 1000 pt game, Marines vs Inq, with 3 assassins.
They seem... dramatically undercosted.
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Post by: cranect
I have been running 2 vindicares, a callidus, and an eversor alongside my tempestus scion force and it has been doing some work so far.
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Post by: Haveatya
My culexus was great today vs Grey Knights, obviously. Eversor got a charge off versus an enemy character but failed to do anything cool and was rapid fired by 12 scion plasma gunners.
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Post by: 0604854
U02dah4 wrote:0604854 wrote:18 assassins leaves about 600-700 pts, I need some Hq's for Vanugard detachments, the problem is I need 18 units to allow me to deepstike all my units.
Since your running 18 assassin's your clearly not above cheese -so here's what you do
Pick Cheap HQ to preference Primaris Psycker, Inquisitor guard company comander purely as a distraction
Then read the undersized unit rule. It's in each index and the main rulebook
Abuse the undersized unit rule
1 unit of 1 scout
1 unit if 1 conscript
1 unit of 1Veteran
1 unit of 1 vanguard
1 unit of 1 ranger
1 fenrisian Wolf
WOW! did not notice that on first reading of the book, must have skimmed over it, this opens up ALOT of options.
Wait the rulebook says you have to pay for the minimum size of the unit whether you bring them or not but the index says that you only pay for the models you bring, which is it?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Haveatya wrote:My culexus was great today vs Grey Knights, obviously. Eversor got a charge off versus an enemy character but failed to do anything cool and was rapid fired by 12 scion plasma gunners.
Eversor is not really for character hunting he would much prefer smacking up infantry. The Vindicare or Callidus would be better for that job.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
What I would like your guys feedback on is how many of each assassin to take? This is my current thinking:
I am Thinking 2 Vindicare is about right, anymore and I think it's excessive especially when some armies won't have alot of targets.
5 Culexus Assassins mainly for tarpitting and anti psyker.
3 Callidus Assassins- Basically they kill any T4 fighty characters and anyone with good invulnerable saves (storm shileds etc.)
8 Eversors- My favorite and all those melta bombs will come in useful.
Now the question people are posing is whether the Callidus is worth it compared to the Eversor (what he she do that the Eversor can't) the potentially closer deep strike can help get around bubble wrapping etc. As they only need smaller gaps to deepstrike, the command point ability is a nice bonus and her shredder can chip a few wounds of vehicles if needs must, one big thing is she can hit and run which means she always gets to use the shredder and strike 1st in your turn. All being said she is situational so I could see myself dropping her down to 2 for another Eversor.
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Post by: GhostRecon
I'd say the real benefits of the Callidus is more in the back-field harassment and chaos she can cause. With her Hit and Run ability she can jump between units (provided they don't fall back). Also prevents her from getting tarpitted.
Add in Reign of Confusion and she can potentially (at best) halve your opponent's CPs just for existing - and she doesn't have to be on the board to cause that effect.
She still seems decent at fighting characters, but that just seems to be a side benefit/bonus or a contingency while she serves her primary role as a harassment/disruption unit. With the way things like HWTs for AM look to be coming back in a big way, she could fill a pretty useful role.
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Post by: ZergSmasher
0604854 wrote:Wait the rulebook says you have to pay for the minimum size of the unit whether you bring them or not but the index says that you only pay for the models you bring, which is it?
I think it does specify the minimum squad size in the index in the unit entry. So you do have to pay for the minimum number of models even if you don't take them all.
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Post by: 0604854
GhostRecon wrote:I'd say the real benefits of the Callidus is more in the back-field harassment and chaos she can cause. With her Hit and Run ability she can jump between units (provided they don't fall back). Also prevents her from getting tarpitted.
Add in Reign of Confusion and she can potentially (at best) halve your opponent's CPs just for existing - and she doesn't have to be on the board to cause that effect.
She still seems decent at fighting characters, but that just seems to be a side benefit/bonus or a contingency while she serves her primary role as a harassment/disruption unit. With the way things like HWTs for AM look to be coming back in a big way, she could fill a pretty useful role.
I am thinking now 2 Callidus, I think your right, she is there for annoyance and harassment.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ther things I am thinking of to make up the numbers are:
Adeptus Astrates Tarantulas for fast attack with twin assault cannons
Heavy weapon Squads with Mortars
Company commanders for orders
And some lascannons either as part of heavy weapon squads or to go with Tarantulas (not sure which would be the most cost effective and game effective).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just posted the latest version of my assassin list:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/730716.page#9458911
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Post by: LTWheels
How should Callidus be used, and when should you use what weapon? I've seen suggestions that she is a melee version of the Vindicare - to be used against characters, but I don't see
For the phase sword with only strength 4 - characters are going to most likely have a higher toughness, so hitting on 5+
Poison Blades hits easily but has a low -ap, and only seems worth using against characters after a few fights to increase the number of attacks.
She also seem a bit squishy in close combat as well.
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Post by: Audustum
She's an anti-Space Marine, Eldar and IG Character unit. Against all of those, the S4 on the Phase Sword works O.K. Against Daemon, Ork and Tyranid characters though, more difficult.
Neural Shredder isn't bad for shooting at Imperial Knights and Tanks though.
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Post by: KingLetterman
PUFNSTUF wrote: casvalremdeikun wrote:PUFNSTUF wrote: Crazyterran wrote:The Eversor and Callidus both have high points, and the Callidus has a chance to force enemies to spend extra cp on the first turn, when
Yes but I mean is he punching stuff with his fists then? Pretty funny if he's more Killy that way than assassins with swords haha.
I mean, the Culexus is literally siphoning the souls of his/her victims out with his/her bare hands (They are literally the Ardat Yakshi of the 40k Universe for any Mass Effect Fans out here #represent) . Culexus is basically at S4 AP-10 using arcane negative warp energy to send his enemies into oblivion to be Slaneeshes Playtoy. So, do they really need a sword?
Personally the Culexus lore is my favorite. Easily the best crafted of the assassins, the Eversor lore makes no sense at all, build a super soldier that's job is to go into a frenzy and kill stuff? Isn't that like the sole job EVERY single deadly elite unit out there lore wise?
Assassins have serious survivability problems, and the Vindicare and Culexus are the only ones who solve that.
Example: If an Eversor (which seems to be all the rattle these days) Agaisnt Hoarde Guard or my Tempestus + Airwing + Astra Telepatica, you will kill like 7 and then get drowned by 100 las gun shots, as they can shoot after falling back, same with Tau. As both armies will eat Eversor and Calladius booty for breakfast.
I love the model for both of the two though!
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Post by: Slayer-Fan123
Well that's not what the Eversor is only about, but alright.
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Post by: 0604854
Well lets have a look at those 100 Lasguns, lets say you hit on 3's thats 66 hits, you wound on 5's that's 22 wounds, you then roll saves thats 1 unsaved wounds, Eversors have 6 wounds each so you have killed nearly 2 assassins. That's not alot considering the firepower you put into them, yes your army probably has other firepower to also take potshots (Lascannons etc.) but you have to consider what else you could have shot with those 100 Lasguns except the Eversors.
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Post by: admironheart
WOW! did not notice that on first reading of the book, must have skimmed over it, this opens up ALOT of options.
Wait the rulebook says you have to pay for the minimum size of the unit whether you bring them or not but the index says that you only pay for the models you bring, which is it?
The 5 indices and the newest FAQ over rules the main rulebook for BattleForged Armies In Matched Play games.
So you only have to pay for the models and wargear that you actually field
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Post by: Widied
I noticed a few people talking about the callidus and stating they don't have an attack for high toughness but if they use the poison blades they wound everything on a 3+ right? That would be their answer to that question I'm assuming unless I'm reading something wrong.
I'm actually quite torn on whether to try a callidus or cullexus right now. suggestions? I do run a psyker in my list; so would it be good to have the cullexus to make sure my powers have the best chance to go off and nearly guaranty I shut my opponents down. They could still be fairly relevant in combat with being just generally tough to kill. Or would the callidus offer just way more flexibility and dmg output. Seems she could get into a lot of situations which is interesting in itself.
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Post by: Doctoralex
Well, keep in mind that the Culexus' Animus Speculum only becomes D6 shots when there are ENEMY psykers within 18".
The Culexus doesn't draw power from your psykers but in return doesn't hinder them either.
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Post by: Widied
Doctoralex wrote:Well, keep in mind that the Culexus' Animus Speculum only becomes D6 shots when there are ENEMY psykers within 18".
The Culexus doesn't draw power from your psykers but in return doesn't hinder them either.
Yeah. I think the Culexus' role is much more defined by her bubble of anti-psyker. Though he/she won't be bad in combat necessarily. Just I don't expect fantastic results from her in that regard. The Callidus though seems a bit more agile in that regard. Probably not as good as the Evesor but a little more diverse.
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Post by: Pskotti
0604854 wrote:U02dah4 wrote:0604854 wrote:18 assassins leaves about 600-700 pts, I need some Hq's for Vanugard detachments, the problem is I need 18 units to allow me to deepstike all my units.
Since your running 18 assassin's your clearly not above cheese -so here's what you do
Pick Cheap HQ to preference Primaris Psycker, Inquisitor guard company comander purely as a distraction
Then read the undersized unit rule. It's in each index and the main rulebook
Abuse the undersized unit rule
1 unit of 1 scout
1 unit if 1 conscript
1 unit of 1Veteran
1 unit of 1 vanguard
1 unit of 1 ranger
1 fenrisian Wolf
WOW! did not notice that on first reading of the book, must have skimmed over it, this opens up ALOT of options.
Wait the rulebook says you have to pay for the minimum size of the unit whether you bring them or not but the index says that you only pay for the models you bring, which is it?
The latest FAQ says you only pay for the models in understrength units that you use, but they can only be taken as Aux detachments. So unless you hate CP spamming them isn't a great idea.
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Post by: Zuri Prime
Took the Callidus today and its Neural Shredder is amazing for wiping out elite units such as Terminators and Mega Nobs. It's not the greatest ever in melee but it's no slouch either.
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Post by: Doctoralex
Yup remember the Callidus's other passive too. With all the new strategems coming out in the codexes, the Callidus goes 'you feelin' lucky, punk?' When the enemy wants to use strategems turn 1.
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Post by: Widied
Hey all, I've been wanting to try out a single Culexus for anti-psyker support. Can a single Culexus ability to dampen psyker effects handle psyker threats or should it be backed up with a libby in your experience? Thanks!
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Post by: Smirrors
Bringing this tactica back from the dead!
Rather than people spam individual posts, Im hoping to see everyone contribute to this post for ideas and experiences using the new Index Imperialis: Assassins (can we get a thread title change?)
Today I am going to test out a triple Vindicare and Eversor detachment for 340pts for fun.
On paper the Vindicare appears to require 2 or 3 to be effective in removing characters. Has anyone had practical experiences with this?
Triple Eversor would be decent too. I feel like triple Culexus would only be situational other than being an annoyance for some armies. There is really no need for multiple Callidus.
The bonus for having 1 of each assassin also feels like a trap. Its a lot of points firstly, highly situational, and not optimal load out with a single vindicare.
Anything else I missed?
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Post by: the_scotsman
 Smirrors wrote:Bringing this tactica back from the dead!
Rather than people spam individual posts, Im hoping to see everyone contribute to this post for ideas and experiences using the new Index Imperialis: Assassins (can we get a thread title change?)
Today I am going to test out a triple Vindicare and Eversor detachment for 340pts for fun.
On paper the Vindicare appears to require 2 or 3 to be effective in removing characters. Has anyone had practical experiences with this?
Triple Eversor would be decent too. I feel like triple Culexus would only be situational other than being an annoyance for some armies. There is really no need for multiple Callidus.
The bonus for having 1 of each assassin also feels like a trap. Its a lot of points firstly, highly situational, and not optimal load out with a single vindicare.
Anything else I missed?
No offense, but I was highly confused reading the first few pages of this thread. Howsabout you just go ahead and create a new one, one that doesn't have people discussing the index rules and suggesting things that have been FAQ'ed out of the game at this point like turn 1 deep strike and mixed imperial lists?
I've tried the three assassins 0CP vanguard detachment with a callidus, eversor and vindicare. Only the eversor accomplished anything, and he took until turn 4 to make his points back, plus I had to pump 3CP into him to get him to do it - not an efficient performance, but better than the other two. Callidus succeeded her charge but flubbed the combat, and the vindicare failed to connect 3/4 turns he was alive, since he's got a 45% chance of failing to wound vs power armor.
unsurprisingly, the chicken little hype for the assassins seems to have been somewhat overblown. I think they'll be used as an 85pt sideboard in compeitive games and might see some action.
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Post by: topaxygouroun i
 3orangewhips wrote:I played a 1000 pt game, Marines vs Inq, with 3 assassins.
They seem... dramatically undercosted.
That's not a good level to determine their usefulness. You can play 700 pt games with baneblades in them if you know what I mean.
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Post by: Horst
Yea, the 85 pt sideboard for one assassin seems to be the way to go. Callidus if you need to drain the enemy's CP, like if they are using Knights or Orks with many Lootas or Tankbustas, Eversor if they have hordes you need to clear or just general purpose, or Culexus if you need anti spyker. Vindicare seems like the worst choice IMO, though he may be useful against Harlequins, to help take down Skyweavers and other hard to kill units that have invulnerable saves.
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Post by: topaxygouroun i
The 85 pt deal is simply amazing. It's like getting daemon summoning, only with no movement penalties and with no chance of failure. The assassins are so impact heavy in their role that by just bringing a standard whatever list and suddenly popping the culexus, you are already messing up with your opponents 300-400+ pt spent in psykers (700+ if we are talking Thousand Sons).
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Post by: the_scotsman
topaxygouroun i wrote:The 85 pt deal is simply amazing. It's like getting daemon summoning, only with no movement penalties and with no chance of failure. The assassins are so impact heavy in their role that by just bringing a standard whatever list and suddenly popping the culexus, you are already messing up with your opponents 300-400+ pt spent in psykers (700+ if we are talking Thousand Sons).
I think the culexus vs psyker heavy opponent is realy the only situation where this holds true, though. If I bring a horde of orks I'm not going to go "oh noes, my opponent has an eversor assassin whatever will I do?" because he'll show up turn 2, probably make it in, and maybe make his points back over a few rounds of combat if he doesn't just get unlucky and die. And even with the culexus, you'd better hope your opponent doesn't have any autohit weaponry handy. Or you know, dark reapers with forewarned, which removes one of the major opponents you'd really love to have your culexus against.
if I'm thinking of the best edge cases for the sideboard assassin, I've got:
-Culexus vs a psyker heavy *but not eldar psyker heavy with DR's* opponent
-Vindicare vs an opponent with a bunch of infantry characters who are also expensive and also not with good armor saves. So, Orks, and...dark eldar, I guess, since they're mostly invuln-based?
-Callidus vs...an opponent you know is going to spend a LOT of really cheap 1cp stratagems turn 1? I don't know.
-Eversor by default but I guess he really likes an opponent with a ton of non-chaff elite 1w models. Yeah that's a lot of situations in the competitive meta.
For 85pts, the chance of them falling flat on their face due to bad rolling is still very much present, and has always been a big problem with them. Because beside the debuff aura out of the culexus, every assassin comes down to one shot, or one charge roll, or one round of combat as they try to bring their target down.
In most situations, mr. vindicare needs to hit on a 2, wound on a 2, and not have his opponent save on a 6 in order to make his shot connect. He's gonna fail that almost 50% of the time.
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Post by: BaconCatBug
This really should have been a new thread. The first 2 pages are out of date and aren't just useless but actively detrimental.
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Post by: abyrn
the_scotsman wrote: Smirrors wrote:Bringing this tactica back from the dead!
Rather than people spam individual posts, Im hoping to see everyone contribute to this post for ideas and experiences using the new Index Imperialis: Assassins (can we get a thread title change?)
Today I am going to test out a triple Vindicare and Eversor detachment for 340pts for fun.
On paper the Vindicare appears to require 2 or 3 to be effective in removing characters. Has anyone had practical experiences with this?
Triple Eversor would be decent too. I feel like triple Culexus would only be situational other than being an annoyance for some armies. There is really no need for multiple Callidus.
The bonus for having 1 of each assassin also feels like a trap. Its a lot of points firstly, highly situational, and not optimal load out with a single vindicare.
Anything else I missed?
No offense, but I was highly confused reading the first few pages of this thread. Howsabout you just go ahead and create a new one, one that doesn't have people discussing the index rules and suggesting things that have been FAQ'ed out of the game at this point like turn 1 deep strike and mixed imperial lists?
I've tried the three assassins 0CP vanguard detachment with a callidus, eversor and vindicare. Only the eversor accomplished anything, and he took until turn 4 to make his points back, plus I had to pump 3CP into him to get him to do it - not an efficient performance, but better than the other two. Callidus succeeded her charge but flubbed the combat, and the vindicare failed to connect 3/4 turns he was alive, since he's got a 45% chance of failing to wound vs power armor.
unsurprisingly, the chicken little hype for the assassins seems to have been somewhat overblown. I think they'll be used as an 85pt sideboard in compeitive games and might see some action.
How is the Vindicare failing to wound vs power armor? He hits on 3's, 2's if he does not move, and always wounds infantry on a 2, or do you mean he has a 45% chance of killing a power armored character in one turn? I think the Vindicare needs sniper support, either by taking a second Vindicare or any other snipers. He seems to be about 1 or 2 wounds short on average on killing characters.
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Post by: Audustum
abyrn wrote:the_scotsman wrote: Smirrors wrote:Bringing this tactica back from the dead!
Rather than people spam individual posts, Im hoping to see everyone contribute to this post for ideas and experiences using the new Index Imperialis: Assassins (can we get a thread title change?)
Today I am going to test out a triple Vindicare and Eversor detachment for 340pts for fun.
On paper the Vindicare appears to require 2 or 3 to be effective in removing characters. Has anyone had practical experiences with this?
Triple Eversor would be decent too. I feel like triple Culexus would only be situational other than being an annoyance for some armies. There is really no need for multiple Callidus.
The bonus for having 1 of each assassin also feels like a trap. Its a lot of points firstly, highly situational, and not optimal load out with a single vindicare.
Anything else I missed?
No offense, but I was highly confused reading the first few pages of this thread. Howsabout you just go ahead and create a new one, one that doesn't have people discussing the index rules and suggesting things that have been FAQ'ed out of the game at this point like turn 1 deep strike and mixed imperial lists?
I've tried the three assassins 0CP vanguard detachment with a callidus, eversor and vindicare. Only the eversor accomplished anything, and he took until turn 4 to make his points back, plus I had to pump 3CP into him to get him to do it - not an efficient performance, but better than the other two. Callidus succeeded her charge but flubbed the combat, and the vindicare failed to connect 3/4 turns he was alive, since he's got a 45% chance of failing to wound vs power armor.
unsurprisingly, the chicken little hype for the assassins seems to have been somewhat overblown. I think they'll be used as an 85pt sideboard in compeitive games and might see some action.
How is the Vindicare failing to wound vs power armor? He hits on 3's, 2's if he does not move, and always wounds infantry on a 2, or do you mean he has a 45% chance of killing a power armored character in one turn? I think the Vindicare needs sniper support, either by taking a second Vindicare or any other snipers. He seems to be about 1 or 2 wounds short on average on killing characters.
2 Vindicares seems to be the sweet spot. Use the stratagem to have 1 take 2 shots at 2 different characters, then have the second finish off the more injured one. Pop the strat to gain CP for killing a character and the whole thing is a wash.
EDIT: I also edited first post to hopefully dispel some confusion.
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Post by: Galef
Audustum wrote:
2 Vindicares seems to be the sweet spot. Use the stratagem to have 1 take 2 shots at 2 different characters, then have the second finish off the more injured one. Pop the strat to gain CP for killing a character and the whole thing is a wash.
Although, you'd need to keep in mind that you might also be spending 2CPs at the beginning of the game to get those 2 Vindies in the first place. So you would never be able to get a "profit" other than killing those characters.
-
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Post by: BaconCatBug
 Galef wrote:Audustum wrote: 2 Vindicares seems to be the sweet spot. Use the stratagem to have 1 take 2 shots at 2 different characters, then have the second finish off the more injured one. Pop the strat to gain CP for killing a character and the whole thing is a wash.
Although, you'd need to keep in mind that you might also be spending 2CPs at the beginning of the game to get those 2 Vindies in the first place. So you would never be able to get a "profit" other than killing those characters. -
You can't use the "buy an assassin" stratagem twice. It's explicitly one time only. And taking two aux detachments is madness. You either want 1 via stratagem or an execution force of 4.
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Post by: The Forgemaster
you could take a vanguard force of 3x assassins: 2x Vindicare, 1x other for no CP cost...
Might work, not tried it yet.
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Post by: Audustum
 The Forgemaster wrote:you could take a vanguard force of 3x assassins: 2x Vindicare, 1x other for no CP cost...
Might work, not tried it yet.
Yeah, and I think there's room for that depending on your army still. You may not always want to spend 85 points for 1 CP (effectively). Automatically Appended Next Post:  BaconCatBug wrote: Galef wrote:Audustum wrote:
2 Vindicares seems to be the sweet spot. Use the stratagem to have 1 take 2 shots at 2 different characters, then have the second finish off the more injured one. Pop the strat to gain CP for killing a character and the whole thing is a wash.
Although, you'd need to keep in mind that you might also be spending 2CPs at the beginning of the game to get those 2 Vindies in the first place. So you would never be able to get a "profit" other than killing those characters.
-
You can't use the "buy an assassin" stratagem twice. It's explicitly one time only. And taking two aux detachments is madness. You either want 1 via stratagem or an execution force of 4.
Basically this or the 0 CP Vanguard.
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Post by: abyrn
You can also take some other snipers that are not Vindicares to soften up the target. I'm trying out a list this weekend with a Space Marine sniper squad and a Vindicare - my theory is that the Vindicare should be able to take down a target after the Scouts put 1 or 2 wounds on it.
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Post by: The Forgemaster
abyrn wrote:You can also take some other snipers that are not Vindicares to soften up the target. I'm trying out a list this weekend with a Space Marine sniper squad and a Vindicare - my theory is that the Vindicare should be able to take down a target after the Scouts put 1 or 2 wounds on it.
Yup, I had some luck with a couple of squads of Skitarii + 2x Arquebus and the Vindicare finishing the characters off to gain those CP. only 2x 65pts + 85 for the vindicare.
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Post by: the_scotsman
BaconCatBug wrote: Galef wrote:Audustum wrote:
2 Vindicares seems to be the sweet spot. Use the stratagem to have 1 take 2 shots at 2 different characters, then have the second finish off the more injured one. Pop the strat to gain CP for killing a character and the whole thing is a wash.
Although, you'd need to keep in mind that you might also be spending 2CPs at the beginning of the game to get those 2 Vindies in the first place. So you would never be able to get a "profit" other than killing those characters.
-
You can't use the "buy an assassin" stratagem twice. It's explicitly one time only. And taking two aux detachments is madness. You either want 1 via stratagem or an execution force of 4.
Why would you go for the execution force of 4 though, when you could take 3 in a vanguard and just give up 1cp? seems like the benefit for not having to field 1 of each and instead getting to go 2 vindys 1 culexus or 2 vindys 1 eversor would be way higher.
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Post by: Smirrors
He's saying 58% to kill, so 42% chance of not killing.
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Post by: the_scotsman
No, I'm saying 58% chance to *cause any damage*. Not 58% chance to *kill*. A vindicare assassin has about a 20% overall chance of KILLING an average power armored character.
110187
Post by: U02dah4
yeah but it only needs to kill one and assuming you fire it on two turns vs two targets.
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Post by: the_scotsman
U02dah4 wrote:yeah but it only needs to kill one and assuming you fire it on two turns vs two targets.
Sure. And you only need to roll high with a rapier laser destroyer one time and it will one-shot a tank and instantly give its points back. it's still considered an incredibly bad piece overall.
It's not LIKELY to do that, nor is the assassin LIKELY to snipe a character.
If he takes 3 turns to kill a character, it doesn't matter that he's made his points back. he's exerted next to no pressure on the game and I would consider his inclusion to be mostly a failure.
For vindicares to be really worthwhile you need to pair them with other sniper units (others suggested skitarii and I think that's a good idea, or obviously you could just bring 2-3 vindicares)
Blindly slapping the vindicare into your list is only going to be impressive if you experience a lot of confirmation bias and remember those few times he does make a huge impact turn 1.
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Post by: U02dah4
False equivalence
The vindicare is a character it is also reasonably likely to hit and the compounded effect of two shots
So 48% 1-3w + headshot 13.9% x(1W) + (32% of shots 1MW + 16% + 2MW 5.3% 3M)
So 30% of the time we will kill a 4w t3/4 3++ character
This is higher the second time a character has been Wounded as you now don't need the bonuses.
On 2 different targets so we have 60% chance of a T1 kill followed by the same or better t2.
The rapier is not a character so can be shot and so needs to make its points back or it wont be there T2.
Bs4+ St 12 ap-4 so assuming knight 1/6 of the time it will do (3.5W * 0.33% or 7w * 50% or 11.5* 0.16%).
The assassin is reasonably likely to snipe a character if it fires at 2 30% on A 30% on B.
The rapier fails to damage 5/6 of the time and even when it does is doing 3.5w 3rd of time.
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Post by: the_scotsman
Your math here is ridiculously disingenuous.
You gave the vindicare a situation where all its stats were being used and put the rapier on a target with a 5++ invuln. You also chose to use the lower BS version of the rapier instead of the one you'd ever use (marine one with 3+bs)
You also spent a CP on the vindicare to make it look better but did not spend a CP on the rapier to improve one of its many single dice rolls.
And rather than sticking to my example of a typical 5w 3+sv marine character you invented a theoretical 4w 3++ character that a) AFAIK pretty much exists nowhere and b) gives the vindicare far better odds of a single turn kill.
Yet instead of a normal vehicle which would get no save you put the rapier against a Knight.
My only point here is that the vindicare is not a magic miracle machine that will 100% always give you value. If he takes until turn 2-3 to kill anything and costs cp and doesn't score at all, he's not a useful piece. Pair him with other supporting snipers or take multiples so you can actually apply pressure with him.
30109
Post by: ItsPug
U02dah4 wrote:
So 30% of the time we will kill a 4w t3/4 3++ character
On 2 different targets so we have 60% chance of a T1 kill followed by the same or better t2.
That's not how probability works. You don't add the chances of two things happening independently together.
An example is tossing a coin. you have a 50% change of getting heads. Toss two coins and you don't have a 100% chance of getting at least one heads you only have a 75% chance. To get the correct answer you multiply the failure rates and subtract from 1. so if 30% is the success rate you multiple 0.7 by 0.7 and get 0.49, so the success rate is 0.51 or 51%.
On 2 different targets you have 51% chance of at least one T1 kill.
110187
Post by: U02dah4
Coin A 25% TT 50% TH 25% HH 75% chance of at least 1H
However expectancy is still 1H because for every HH their is a TT
Expectancy is the best measure of AVG performance as it takes into account that time you kill 2. Yes in a distribution sometimes you may perform better sometimes you may perform worse.
But the expectancy will be 60% of a killed model
9% two dead characters 42% 1 dead character 49% no dead characters
Or if they were wounded previously
23% two dead characters 50% 1 dead character 27% no dead characters
So yes you have a 51% chance of atleast 1 kill but a 9% chance of two. So in the long run you will get 60% of a character killed per round thats the expectancy.
111367
Post by: bort
Umm, you typed it out there yourself above: 42% chance of 1 dead, 9% chance of two. 42+9=51% chance of at least one dead.
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Post by: Mandragola
I think the stratagem to fire twice makes Vindicares probably the best option against the kind of Eldar armies that bring mutliple warlocks. Chances of dropping one of those are really quite good, and if you get one it pays back the CP cost of firing twice.
The Callidus is still cool of course, but can struggle to actually get to enemy psykers if they're hiding at the back. Both the Eversor and Vindicare could potentially be better in that match up.
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Post by: U02dah4
bort wrote:Umm, you typed it out there yourself above: 42% chance of 1 dead, 9% chance of two. 42+9=51% chance of at least one dead.
42 +(9x2) = expectancy 60% which is a more accurate measure of effectiveness
30109
Post by: ItsPug
U02dah4 wrote:Coin A 25% TT 50% TH 25% HH 75% chance of at least 1H
However expectancy is still 1H because for every HH their is a TT
Expectancy is the best measure of AVG performance as it takes into account that time you kill 2. Yes in a distribution sometimes you may perform better sometimes you may perform worse.
But the expectancy will be 60% of a killed model
9% two dead characters 42% 1 dead character 49% no dead characters
Or if they were wounded previously
23% two dead characters 50% 1 dead character 27% no dead characters
So yes you have a 51% chance of at least 1 kill but a 9% chance of two. So in the long run you will get 60% of a character killed per round that's the expectancy.
What?? No, that's not how it works. You said it yourself, with two shots at two different characters you're chance of killing no characters is 49%, so how is it 60% to kill a character per round? That's 109% with all possible outcomes. That right there should tell you you're wrong.
The 51% chance of at least one kill includes the chance of killing 2. That's why its describes as "at least one". You don't add 9% on to it again for the chance of killing 2, its already been included in the 51%.
111367
Post by: bort
Oh, I get what you're going for. That's not 60% chance of killing a target, that's an EV of 60% of a character's worth of wounds.
If you think of it like a unit doing 2 shots each dealing .3W, most would say the unit has an expected value of .6W. Which works. But, it's not the same as saying that unit has a 60% chance of killing a 1W target.
110187
Post by: U02dah4
ItsPug wrote:U02dah4 wrote:Coin A 25% TT 50% TH 25% HH 75% chance of at least 1H
However expectancy is still 1H because for every HH their is a TT
Expectancy is the best measure of AVG performance as it takes into account that time you kill 2. Yes in a distribution sometimes you may perform better sometimes you may perform worse.
But the expectancy will be 60% of a killed model
9% two dead characters 42% 1 dead character 49% no dead characters
Or if they were wounded previously
23% two dead characters 50% 1 dead character 27% no dead characters
So yes you have a 51% chance of at least 1 kill but a 9% chance of two. So in the long run you will get 60% of a character killed per round that's the expectancy.
What?? No, that's not how it works. You said it yourself, with two shots at two different characters you're chance of killing no characters is 49%, so how is it 60% to kill a character per round? That's 109% with all possible outcomes. That right there should tell you you're wrong.
The 51% chance of at least one kill includes the chance of killing 2. That's why its describes as "at least one". You don't add 9% on to it again for the chance of killing 2, its already been included in the 51%.
because sometimes you will kill 2 so when averageing the expected kill rate will be higher than the 51%.
Expectancy = chance of outcome X number of kills = Average output (which will be higher than the at least 1)
9%X2+ 51%x1 + 49X0 =60%
so no its not 109% in this example but yes that can occur that would mean you would on avg kill more than 1 character
put it this way if i fire 10 boltgun shots into an infantry squad
the expectancy is 296% in other words you will kill 2.96 guardsmen on avg a useful measure of how my tac squad performs
the measure of killing at least 1 guardsman will be 97% which while true is not a fair indication of its effectiveness
You can see how the two measures perform when i double the shots so I fire 20 boltgun shots into an infantry squad
the expectancy is 593% you will kill 5.93 guardsmen on avg this quite accurately shows the impact of the increased firepower
the measure of killing at least 1 guardsmen will be 99.98% so yes we can conclude that doubleing the firepower increases the odds of killing at least 1 guardsmen by under 3%. Has it effectively measured the impact of doubleing the shots?
When a unit has the possabilty of killing more than one model you need to take that into account when measureing effectiveness.
the expectancy is 60% vindicare will kill 0.6 Characters (T3/4 4W 3+) on Avg thats the useful measure of its performance
30109
Post by: ItsPug
U02dah4 wrote:
because sometimes you will kill 2 so when averaging the expected kill rate will be higher than the 51%.
Expectancy = chance of outcome X number of kills = Average output (which will be higher than the at least 1)
9%X2+ 51%x1 + 49X0 =60%
so no its not 109% in this example but yes that can occur that would mean you would on avg kill more than 1 character
put it this way if i fire 10 boltgun shots into an infantry squad
the expectancy is 296% in other words you will kill 2.96 guardsmen on avg a useful measure of how my tac squad performs
the measure of killing at least 1 guardsman will be 97% which while true is not a fair indication of its effectiveness
You can see how the two measures perform when i double the shots so I fire 20 boltgun shots into an infantry squad
the expectancy is 593% you will kill 5.93 guardsmen on avg this quite accurately shows the impact of the increased firepower
the measure of killing at least 1 guardsmen will be 99.98% so yes we can conclude that doubleing the firepower increases the odds of killing at least 1 guardsmen by under 3%. Has it effectively measured the impact of doubleing the shots?
When a unit has the possabilty of killing more than one model you need to take that into account when measureing effectiveness.
the expectancy is 60% vindicare will kill 0.6 Characters (T3/4 4W 3+) on Avg thats the useful measure of its performance
Percent (%) means per 100. You fire 100 bolter shots at a unit and kill 29.6, that's 29.6% not 2960% as your example above suggests. Doubling the number of shots doubles the expected outcome, not the chance of the event happening.
U02dah4 wrote:
So 30% of the time we will kill a 4w t3/4 3++ character
That's your quote discussing the chance of something happening, not the expected wounds inflicted, but the chance that the vindicare would kill its target.
If I have a unit that automatically does 4 wounds to a dreadnought, no more and no less, and I shoot it at a dreadnought, I can expect to inflict damage representing 50% of the dreadnought's starting wounds. but I have no chance of killing it with that unit alone in one turn. Hence, the expected outcome is 50% damage (or 4 wounds) but the chance of kill is 0%
Expectancy (or expected outcome) is the average result, rolling 2d6 the expected outcome is 7, The chance of rolling 7 is 16.66%. They are two different things.
Oh and incidentally, the chance of getting the expected outcome (7) is the same as getting a 4 or less, or a 10+
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Post by: Eihnlazer
well no, your chance of getting a 4 is 1/12 whereas your chance of getting a 7 is 1/6.
But your right about the rest.
You were probably adding the chance of getting a 4 or a 10 now that I reread it.
30109
Post by: ItsPug
 Eihnlazer wrote:well no, your chance of getting a 4 is 1/12 whereas your chance of getting a 7 is 1/6.
But your right about the rest.
You were probably adding the chance of getting a 4 or a 10 now that I reread it.
No there is a 6/36 or 1/6 chance of getting a 4 or less (1/36 for a 2, 2/36 for a 3 and a 3/36 for a 4, total 6/36). The same goes for a 10+ (3/36 for 10, 2/36 for 11 and 1/36 for a 12)
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Post by: U02dah4
Yes by taking the 29.6% successful results you calculated and multiplying by the number of shots
29.6%x 20 we come to 592 (should be 593 but you rounded) so are we to assume thats 592 dead guardsmen no because the 29.6 was a % we have 592% or 5.92 dead guardsmen the Avg or expectancy
The chance of it happening is only part of the working in evaluateing a unit what matters is the expected outcome
Expectancy is the Average outcome
You can look at the expectancy
in terms of:
successfull to hits
Sucessfull to wounds
Failed saves
Damage
Killed models (of different types)
Its about selecting the appropiate measure to inform you of how effective the unit is. in the case of an anti vehicle weapon I want exp of damage because few guns will kill a target so its not a reasonable measure of effectiveness to look at expectancy of kills but damage output is. Especially as i will combine firepower
The likelihood of killed characters is a better measure of a vindicare because my target wont receive extra firepower so it is binary either dead or not.
I pick this profile 4w t3/4 3++ character as it is what i will fire it at. Deviate from this profile and that 30% may become higher or lower. The 30% is based on the expected out come of all combinations of the three damage types includeing failing to hit wound etc....
Yes distribution means that sometimes a gun will outperform expectancy and sometimes underperform its the mean result.
However in the long run you will do better one time for everytime you do worse. In the case of killed models this make the maths mildly more complex because theres a cap overkills dont matter.
If i wanted to compare the neutron laser and 2 lascannons whats easier writting a full distribution of all possible outcomes by probabilities or calculateing the average.
If we look at just the damage roll a lascannon on avg does 3.5 damage when its opponent doesn't save the odds of rolling exactly 3.5 on a dice are 0% so i dont rate my chances of rolling the average in a game as its not possible and so the probabilty of me getting the avg result is not a usefull measure - i wont but the avg indicates what i would get in the long run.
I could write the probabilities of each outcome
1(1/6)+2(1/6)+3(1/6)+4(1/6)+5(1/6)+6(1/6) damage
Where as the neutron laser
3(3/6)+4(1/6)+5(1/6)+6(1/6) damage
Or just exp damage role =3.5 for lascannon vs 4 for a neutron laser shot which is easier to compare?
If you go back to the calculation of the 30% its a simple way of writting how often that target will die but there are two shots on independent targets so we have 30% A dies 30% B dies 60%exp death of a model however on any given turn i may kill 1, 2 or 0 as the shots are independent of each other. In a game if i kills 2 it matters it may not look likely but play 6 games in a tournament those 9% stack up eapecially if its firing in more than one turn.
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Post by: Horst
You can talk about the Vindicare's expected damage all day, but in the end he's a great choice if you don't SPECIFICALLY need one of the other Assassins, and you don't want to give him an easy character to kill, the Vindicare is extremely hard to kill, and can contribute to the match the entire game. If he's always shooting at elite units, he's likely to make his points back, and if he gets lucky and pops a character or two, then you get back some CP as well. Not a bad choice.
If you're playing ITC and your opponent picks Headhunter, maybe think twice before throwing a free secondary point at him in the form of a Callidus or Eversor. The Vindicare is better for playing defensively IMO.
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Post by: abyrn
 Horst wrote:You can talk about the Vindicare's expected damage all day, but in the end he's a great choice if you don't SPECIFICALLY need one of the other Assassins, and you don't want to give him an easy character to kill, the Vindicare is extremely hard to kill, and can contribute to the match the entire game. If he's always shooting at elite units, he's likely to make his points back, and if he gets lucky and pops a character or two, then you get back some CP as well. Not a bad choice.
If you're playing ITC and your opponent picks Headhunter, maybe think twice before throwing a free secondary point at him in the form of a Callidus or Eversor. The Vindicare is better for playing defensively IMO.
I agree, in a recent game I found the Vindicare really useful for picking off random Custodes troops. He also managed to kill the -1 to hit banner guy with a single shot, but I think that was the only character he killed in the game.
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Post by: bort
The whole EV = expected models killed breaks down with multiwound guns, multiwound targets, and multiple targets. As a simple example, picture firing a 10 damage gun at a guardsman. The damage EV is > 1, but you will only kill 1 at most.
There are a number of possible results from the Vindicator's 2 shots in this scenario that do not result in killing a model, some that result in overkill. You can calculate that he will deal 60% of 4W, or 2.4W total on average, but it'll be split somehow across 2 targets, and only a percent of those breakdowns results in 1+ kills.
60415
Post by: Mandragola
I’m wondering which is the best assassin to take against Ynnari. The obvious choice would probably be Culexus as they heavily rely on psychic powers, but I’m not sure that’s actually the case now. He seems the least killy of the assassins. This guy is probably the go to vs hemlocks, as they’ll be coming to you, but he doesn’t do a lot to prevent yvraine and a farseer piling buffs onto reapers in the backfield.
Warlocks walk around with 2 wounds and a 4++. They are begging to be shot by a vindicare, he has a 62% chance of killing one, not counting the better chance if he gets a 6 to wound. And he might well eventually get rid of yvraine or a farseer. On the other hand he’s pretty vulnerable to shining spears if not deployed correctly.
Meanwhile the eversor could tear apart a Ynnari back field. He could pretty easily go through a unit of reapers and could also have a good go at killing yvraine. Ynnari don’t tend to have much in the way of bubble wrap so you’d often be able to chop up valuable things.
And even the Callidus could make sense. You again have a decent chance of killing most T3 characters, especially if they aren’t wrapped well. Ynnari rely on a lot of stratagems do reign of confusion could really hurt them.
What do people reckon?
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Post by: Eihnlazer
Both vindicare and callidus are good againgst all opponents.
Eversor is good againgst hoards of any type.
Culexus is really only good againgst a psycher heavy army that cant outmaneuver you. He's definitely the weakest overall choice, but can certainly do well againgst specific builds.
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Post by: the_scotsman
Mandragola wrote:I’m wondering which is the best assassin to take against Ynnari. The obvious choice would probably be Culexus as they heavily rely on psychic powers, but I’m not sure that’s actually the case now. He seems the least killy of the assassins. This guy is probably the go to vs hemlocks, as they’ll be coming to you, but he doesn’t do a lot to prevent yvraine and a farseer piling buffs onto reapers in the backfield.
Warlocks walk around with 2 wounds and a 4++. They are begging to be shot by a vindicare, he has a 62% chance of killing one, not counting the better chance if he gets a 6 to wound. And he might well eventually get rid of yvraine or a farseer. On the other hand he’s pretty vulnerable to shining spears if not deployed correctly.
Meanwhile the eversor could tear apart a Ynnari back field. He could pretty easily go through a unit of reapers and could also have a good go at killing yvraine. Ynnari don’t tend to have much in the way of bubble wrap so you’d often be able to chop up valuable things.
And even the Callidus could make sense. You again have a decent chance of killing most T3 characters, especially if they aren’t wrapped well. Ynnari rely on a lot of stratagems do reign of confusion could really hurt them.
What do people reckon?
You have to consider that ynnari have a back pocket tool that's quite excellent at dealing with the deep striking assassins - forewarned on the reapers, and since reapers always hit on 3s that even precludes the culexus. (He sets them to bs6, they still hit on 3s because that's what they hit on regardless of any modifiers...their BS is essnetially a meaningless stat)
I would always go vindicare versus Ynnari for that reason. He allows you to pick out important spells like Quicken and Doom and try to take them off the board.
You do really need to screen him though because if a hemlock ever gets next to him he is absolutely toast.
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Post by: U02dah4
Vs ynarii vindicare maybe as its not weakened by forewarned callidus depending on their CP you can alaays footslog the culexus but really the weakening of their psychic powers depends on your own list typically MSU gains less value than the knight
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Post by: Horst
Eihnlazer wrote:Both vindicare and callidus are good againgst all opponents.
Eversor is good againgst hoards of any type.
Culexus is really only good againgst a psycher heavy army that cant outmaneuver you. He's definitely the weakest overall choice, but can certainly do well againgst specific builds.
Culexis looks like a great choice against 'Nids and GSC. The only real reason I have him is to try to block Mental Onslaught if the GSC player tries to stack leadership to 1 hit KO a Knight. Soul Horror is great against them as well, put him right behind a Knight, and if they get a T1 charge off on it, the Knight attacks first. Good stuff.
Culexis also looks good against Thousand Sons.
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Post by: ZergSmasher
I'll go ahead and submit my opinions on which Assassin is good in which situation:
Vindicare: Good if your opponent is relying on certain key buff characters to make his army work. This could be Guard with Company Commanders, Dark Angels with Azrael or the banner guy (indeed even regular marines love the banner guy!), Orks with Weirdboys (take away their Da Jump power) or even Ynnari and their Cat Lady. There aren't a lot of opponents where a Vindicare is a bad choice, except probably Knights.
Culexus: Good against any army that relies heavily on psykers. Craftwords/Ynnari is an obvious one here, as are Thousand Sons or Grey Knights. Even Chaos Daemons rely on psykers a lot (unless it's pure Khorne). Not so good against Tau, Necrons, Drukhari, or Knights.
Callidus: Good against an army that will use plenty of strats on the first turn. Knights spring to mind, as do Orks. Armies that don't rely as heavily on stratagems (like Space Marines) would be less affected by a Callidus obviously.
Eversor: Good against hordes of cheap bodies. Orks come to mind, as do GSC, Tyranids, or Chaos. I don't think they are probably good against Tau, as Tau get some pretty sick overwatch. If you do make it in, you can do nasty things to Fire Warriors though.
Just my 2 cents.
60415
Post by: Mandragola
the_scotsman wrote:Mandragola wrote:I’m wondering which is the best assassin to take against Ynnari. The obvious choice would probably be Culexus as they heavily rely on psychic powers, but I’m not sure that’s actually the case now. He seems the least killy of the assassins. This guy is probably the go to vs hemlocks, as they’ll be coming to you, but he doesn’t do a lot to prevent yvraine and a farseer piling buffs onto reapers in the backfield.
Warlocks walk around with 2 wounds and a 4++. They are begging to be shot by a vindicare, he has a 62% chance of killing one, not counting the better chance if he gets a 6 to wound. And he might well eventually get rid of yvraine or a farseer. On the other hand he’s pretty vulnerable to shining spears if not deployed correctly.
Meanwhile the eversor could tear apart a Ynnari back field. He could pretty easily go through a unit of reapers and could also have a good go at killing yvraine. Ynnari don’t tend to have much in the way of bubble wrap so you’d often be able to chop up valuable things.
And even the Callidus could make sense. You again have a decent chance of killing most T3 characters, especially if they aren’t wrapped well. Ynnari rely on a lot of stratagems do reign of confusion could really hurt them.
What do people reckon?
You have to consider that ynnari have a back pocket tool that's quite excellent at dealing with the deep striking assassins - forewarned on the reapers, and since reapers always hit on 3s that even precludes the culexus. (He sets them to bs6, they still hit on 3s because that's what they hit on regardless of any modifiers...their BS is essnetially a meaningless stat)
I would always go vindicare versus Ynnari for that reason. He allows you to pick out important spells like Quicken and Doom and try to take them off the board.
You do really need to screen him though because if a hemlock ever gets next to him he is absolutely toast.
Good tips. It's so annoying how Eldar have a stratagem for absolutely every situation. That said, you'd want to deploy an Eversor out of sight of the reapers I think, to have a chance of making it through their charge.
To be honest the Vindicare is probably a better choice. You get to put a bullet through the Farseer's head, resolving all kinds of problems in the process.
35310
Post by: the_scotsman
Mandragola wrote:the_scotsman wrote:Mandragola wrote:I’m wondering which is the best assassin to take against Ynnari. The obvious choice would probably be Culexus as they heavily rely on psychic powers, but I’m not sure that’s actually the case now. He seems the least killy of the assassins. This guy is probably the go to vs hemlocks, as they’ll be coming to you, but he doesn’t do a lot to prevent yvraine and a farseer piling buffs onto reapers in the backfield.
Warlocks walk around with 2 wounds and a 4++. They are begging to be shot by a vindicare, he has a 62% chance of killing one, not counting the better chance if he gets a 6 to wound. And he might well eventually get rid of yvraine or a farseer. On the other hand he’s pretty vulnerable to shining spears if not deployed correctly.
Meanwhile the eversor could tear apart a Ynnari back field. He could pretty easily go through a unit of reapers and could also have a good go at killing yvraine. Ynnari don’t tend to have much in the way of bubble wrap so you’d often be able to chop up valuable things.
And even the Callidus could make sense. You again have a decent chance of killing most T3 characters, especially if they aren’t wrapped well. Ynnari rely on a lot of stratagems do reign of confusion could really hurt them.
What do people reckon?
You have to consider that ynnari have a back pocket tool that's quite excellent at dealing with the deep striking assassins - forewarned on the reapers, and since reapers always hit on 3s that even precludes the culexus. (He sets them to bs6, they still hit on 3s because that's what they hit on regardless of any modifiers...their BS is essnetially a meaningless stat)
I would always go vindicare versus Ynnari for that reason. He allows you to pick out important spells like Quicken and Doom and try to take them off the board.
You do really need to screen him though because if a hemlock ever gets next to him he is absolutely toast.
Good tips. It's so annoying how Eldar have a stratagem for absolutely every situation. That said, you'd want to deploy an Eversor out of sight of the reapers I think, to have a chance of making it through their charge.
To be honest the Vindicare is probably a better choice. You get to put a bullet through the Farseer's head, resolving all kinds of problems in the process.
Meh. In terms of stratagems I rate CWE about 7.5/10. Forewarned is incredible, Lightning Reactions is good, Feigned Retreat can be good (but rarely comes up since most things have fly) and Fire and Fade can be good. Everything else in there is situational or not good at all. If you soup them with DE they can feel like they've got "something for everything" but that is kind of like complaining "man, I hate that Imperium has a stratagem for every situation!" Because....yeah...I mean it can, if you soup....
I tend to be most happy with my stratagems when I'm playing orks, Deathwatch and Thousand Sons, and every time I play against knights I find myself learning about new and bonkers strats they can pull with allied CPs.
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Post by: happy_inquisitor
the_scotsman wrote:
You have to consider that ynnari have a back pocket tool that's quite excellent at dealing with the deep striking assassins - forewarned on the reapers, and since reapers always hit on 3s that even precludes the culexus. (He sets them to bs6, they still hit on 3s because that's what they hit on regardless of any modifiers...their BS is essnetially a meaningless stat)
I would always go vindicare versus Ynnari for that reason. He allows you to pick out important spells like Quicken and Doom and try to take them off the board.
You do really need to screen him though because if a hemlock ever gets next to him he is absolutely toast.
A Callidus will get work done even when off the table against Ynnari, they do love their 1CP stratagems and generally do not have a vast bank of CP to use if it gets more expensive.
If a Callidus forces the Dark Reapers to avoid standing anywhere near any LOS blocking terrain to make sure they will get their Forewarned shooting then I would count that as a bit of a win anyway - it probably means I get to shoot them. If they avoid my shooting then they leave blind spots on the table where I can drop in my Callidus to go hunting some squishy characters or maybe one of those elite units.
Automatically Appended Next Post:  ZergSmasher wrote:I'll go ahead and submit my opinions on which Assassin is good in which situation:
Vindicare: Good if your opponent is relying on certain key buff characters to make his army work. This could be Guard with Company Commanders, Dark Angels with Azrael or the banner guy (indeed even regular marines love the banner guy!), Orks with Weirdboys (take away their Da Jump power) or even Ynnari and their Cat Lady. There aren't a lot of opponents where a Vindicare is a bad choice, except probably Knights.
Culexus: Good against any army that relies heavily on psykers. Craftwords/Ynnari is an obvious one here, as are Thousand Sons or Grey Knights. Even Chaos Daemons rely on psykers a lot (unless it's pure Khorne). Not so good against Tau, Necrons, Drukhari, or Knights.
Callidus: Good against an army that will use plenty of strats on the first turn. Knights spring to mind, as do Orks. Armies that don't rely as heavily on stratagems (like Space Marines) would be less affected by a Callidus obviously.
Eversor: Good against hordes of cheap bodies. Orks come to mind, as do GSC, Tyranids, or Chaos. I don't think they are probably good against Tau, as Tau get some pretty sick overwatch. If you do make it in, you can do nasty things to Fire Warriors though.
Just my 2 cents.
Vindicare is pretty weak against Tau with their drones jumping in to save the characters.
The culexus is super-situational but when against a smite-spam army is ludicrously good so there is that.
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Post by: Mandragola
That's a good point about the Callidus vs dark reapers. She's the most likely to get into melee with them. Doesn't really matter how many of them die if they can't shoot. And it's true they love to spam stratagems in the first couple of turns.
93856
Post by: Galef
Mandragola wrote:That's a good point about the Callidus vs dark reapers. She's the most likely to get into melee with them. Doesn't really matter how many of them die if they can't shoot. And it's true they love to spam stratagems in the first couple of turns.
As an Eldar play, I can tell you I fear the Callidus or Vindi far more than the Culexus for this very reason.
All my Psykers are on Jetbikes, so I'll just more away from the Culexus and kill it with a Hemlock.
But having to spend more CPs on the Strats I NEED to use hurts far more. As does getting one of my Characters gimped by a sniper shot.
I genuinely cannot think of a situation in which a Culexus/Eversor would be decent choices over a Callidus or Vindi
-
18602
Post by: Horst
Galef wrote:Mandragola wrote:That's a good point about the Callidus vs dark reapers. She's the most likely to get into melee with them. Doesn't really matter how many of them die if they can't shoot. And it's true they love to spam stratagems in the first couple of turns.
As an Eldar play, I can tell you I fear the Callidus or Vindi far more than the Culexus for this very reason.
All my Psykers are on Jetbikes, so I'll just more away from the Culexus and kill it with a Hemlock.
But having to spend more CPs on the Strats I NEED to use hurts far more. As does getting one of my Characters gimped by a sniper shot.
I genuinely cannot think of a situation in which a Culexus/Eversor would be decent choices over a Callidus or Vindi
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Yea, i was thinking the Eversor for a while until I realized you could just overwatch it to death with the Reapers. A Callidus potentially getting a 4" charge from behind cover is much scarier I think.
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Post by: Mandragola
Trouble with that is that it's the reapers who'll be behind the terrain!
Vindicare assassins seem pretty vulnerable to Hemlocks. So I think the choice probably comes down to a Callidus if hemlocks are present and a Vinidicare if they aren't.
Culexus seems to be for smite spam, which will typically be chaos. An Eversor might seem good for chopping through cultists but he'd vanish pretty fast to smiting.
Eversor is the normal pick vs orks or most other horde rush armies. Might be good for GSC, though honestly I don't know them well enough to say.
Vindicare, as others have said, seems like the guy you take if you're not sure which to take - and unless there are hemlocks in the airspace. Maybe even if there are and you can bubble wrap him sufficiently.
I did hear Alex Harrison talking about how his Ynnari list (2nd place at LVO, with no reapers) feared an Eversor more than anything. This was due to how it could hollow out his backfield. The thing you'd have to do is deploy him somewhere the reapers couldn't see, and I wonder which option out of the eversor's longer charge or the Callidus' ability to deploy closer makes that easier to do. The thing about the Eversor is that it can chop up more things than a Callidus can, so if you aren't able to do the perfect drop you could still kill something worthwhile.
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Post by: the_scotsman
Mandragola wrote:Trouble with that is that it's the reapers who'll be behind the terrain!
Vindicare assassins seem pretty vulnerable to Hemlocks. So I think the choice probably comes down to a Callidus if hemlocks are present and a Vinidicare if they aren't.
Culexus seems to be for smite spam, which will typically be chaos. An Eversor might seem good for chopping through cultists but he'd vanish pretty fast to smiting.
Eversor is the normal pick vs orks or most other horde rush armies. Might be good for GSC, though honestly I don't know them well enough to say.
Vindicare, as others have said, seems like the guy you take if you're not sure which to take - and unless there are hemlocks in the airspace. Maybe even if there are and you can bubble wrap him sufficiently.
I did hear Alex Harrison talking about how his Ynnari list (2nd place at LVO, with no reapers) feared an Eversor more than anything. This was due to how it could hollow out his backfield. The thing you'd have to do is deploy him somewhere the reapers couldn't see, and I wonder which option out of the eversor's longer charge or the Callidus' ability to deploy closer makes that easier to do. The thing about the Eversor is that it can chop up more things than a Callidus can, so if you aren't able to do the perfect drop you could still kill something worthwhile.
I think the turn (now potentially two turns) of reign of confusion is what pushes the callidus over for me.
Also, there is the matter of the vindicare struggling to hurt jetbikes - less than a 50% chance to wound, and hilariously though he ignores the Robe, his Headshot mortal wounds still have to contend with the farseer's Wizard Hat.
"I TOLD you, Alslathel, these helmets are ENTIRELY PRACTICAL, did you see how it stopped that sniper's bullet - it went straight through the filligree but it could not penetrate the gemstone encrusting, no SIR!"
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Post by: nordsturmking
The Vindicares blind grenade seems pretty useless am i missing some thing? the enemy unit gets -1 to hit until end of turn. So i can only ever use is when i charge a unit with one of my units and i let the Vindicare throw the grenade to make the enemy unit take -1 on hit roll in that fight phase to hit.
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Post by: abyrn
 nordsturmking wrote:The Vindicares blind grenade seems pretty useless am i missing some thing? the enemy unit gets -1 to hit until end of turn. So i can only ever use is when i charge a unit with one of my units and i let the Vindicare throw the grenade to make the enemy unit take -1 on hit roll in that fight phase to hit.
Or when he gets charged, by throwing a grenade in overwatch.
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Post by: lessthanjeff
nordsturmking wrote:The Vindicares blind grenade seems pretty useless am i missing some thing? the enemy unit gets -1 to hit until end of turn. So i can only ever use is when i charge a unit with one of my units and i let the Vindicare throw the grenade to make the enemy unit take -1 on hit roll in that fight phase to hit.
I love the image of it myself when someone charges him. I picture him like a ninja throwing down a smoke grenade to try to vanish and pop up somewhere else.
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Post by: blackmage
the best thing about assasins is you can choose spending 1CP what assassin suit better that specific matchup
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Horst wrote: Galef wrote:Mandragola wrote:That's a good point about the Callidus vs dark reapers. She's the most likely to get into melee with them. Doesn't really matter how many of them die if they can't shoot. And it's true they love to spam stratagems in the first couple of turns.
As an Eldar play, I can tell you I fear the Callidus or Vindi far more than the Culexus for this very reason.
All my Psykers are on Jetbikes, so I'll just more away from the Culexus and kill it with a Hemlock.
But having to spend more CPs on the Strats I NEED to use hurts far more. As does getting one of my Characters gimped by a sniper shot.
I genuinely cannot think of a situation in which a Culexus/Eversor would be decent choices over a Callidus or Vindi
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Yea, i was thinking the Eversor for a while until I realized you could just overwatch it to death with the Reapers. A Callidus potentially getting a 4" charge from behind cover is much scarier I think.
eversor charge 3d6 so he still can hit everywhere on table, an eversor can potentially kill a large bunch of reapers, 8 attacks at 2+, wound on 3+ (if you decide yo use the -1 weapon you also reroll) and let them save basically at 6+ more or less 4 deads then 4 more attacks and couple of extra deads, means reapers cease to be a big threat. Callidus is good but anyway just 5 attacks that mean average 3 reapers dead. Last but not least eversor is more durable with 1 extra wound and 4+ FNP, hordes are dominant now and eversor can handle both elite units (8 attacks at ap-3) or hordes. callidus is an excellent character hunter, combined with vindicare she is a nightmare for opponent characters, anyway remember reign of confusion work on 4+, is not super reliable unless opponent really use lot of stratagems, i still feel eversor is more versatile he can kill almost anything caliidus kill plus handle hordes.
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Post by: Dynas
I like the Vindicare the best. Character buffs are vital for a lot of the high meta armies. Eldar, ork, imperium. You can spend 1 cp turn 1 and shoot twice, with the headshot ability, then pop the strategem where you spend 1 and get 2 (or 3 on warlord). YOu break even. If you take head hunter for ITC your are getting points.
With the prevalence of loyal 32, and the Kurovs Aquila, you can pop him first denying your enemy his CP regen. Straken in Catachan detachments.
Ork with the Relic Shock Attack Gun to shut down anti tank. Wierd boyz.
Genestealer cult magus would be a good target as well.
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Post by: addnid
Eversor charging from behind a wall with those 3d6 will wreck those reapers no ? Only the exarch can fire without needing LOS, so unless you happen to have a unit which can intercept (your farseer will likely be near your dark reapers so...).
If you play on planet bowling ball your fine but otherwise this guys is a nightmare.
All 4 assassins need to get to 120-130 points. A 33% increase, yep. Only Tau don’t that care much about them. They wreck most other armies for next to nothing. I do not know any comp imperium players who are not including at least three atm in their lists.
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Post by: Audustum
addnid wrote:Eversor charging from behind a wall with those 3d6 will wreck those reapers no ? Only the exarch can fire without needing LOS, so unless you happen to have a unit which can intercept (your farseer will likely be near your dark reapers so...).
If you play on planet bowling ball your fine but otherwise this guys is a nightmare.
All 4 assassins need to get to 120-130 points. A 33% increase, yep. Only Tau don’t that care much about them. They wreck most other armies for next to nothing. I do not know any comp imperium players who are not including at least three atm in their lists.
Well, if you're fighting a skilled opponents there should be a wall of Guardians or other fodder preventing any charge by the Eversor into Dark Reapers. The Reapers can also be deployed by Loss blocking terrain that is not Ruins (thus preventing the wall breakthrough). It's really not that hard to keep him away.
I honestly find him to be the weakest of the assassin's. The Calidus is worse at actually killing something of value, but you can use her to force more CP spending so that's good.
122127
Post by: addnid
Audustum wrote:addnid wrote:Eversor charging from behind a wall with those 3d6 will wreck those reapers no ? Only the exarch can fire without needing LOS, so unless you happen to have a unit which can intercept (your farseer will likely be near your dark reapers so...).
If you play on planet bowling ball your fine but otherwise this guys is a nightmare.
All 4 assassins need to get to 120-130 points. A 33% increase, yep. Only Tau don’t that care much about them. They wreck most other armies for next to nothing. I do not know any comp imperium players who are not including at least three atm in their lists.
Well, if you're fighting a skilled opponents there should be a wall of Guardians or other fodder preventing any charge by the Eversor into Dark Reapers. The Reapers can also be deployed by Loss blocking terrain that is not Ruins (thus preventing the wall breakthrough). It's really not that hard to keep him away.
I honestly find him to be the weakest of the assassin's. The Calidus is worse at actually killing something of value, but you can use her to force more CP spending so that's good.
You are right eversor is the less scary imho too. And you can screen him off, yes, but it is still one more thing to consider, and he is just 85 points... All in all eldar players probably don’t fear assassins as much on a table with terrain to hide their psychers (no los needed to cast buffs and rebuffs right ?), they are not overly dependent on strats (callidius) and DR make minced meat of culexus.
99971
Post by: Audustum
addnid wrote:Audustum wrote:addnid wrote:Eversor charging from behind a wall with those 3d6 will wreck those reapers no ? Only the exarch can fire without needing LOS, so unless you happen to have a unit which can intercept (your farseer will likely be near your dark reapers so...).
If you play on planet bowling ball your fine but otherwise this guys is a nightmare.
All 4 assassins need to get to 120-130 points. A 33% increase, yep. Only Tau don’t that care much about them. They wreck most other armies for next to nothing. I do not know any comp imperium players who are not including at least three atm in their lists.
Well, if you're fighting a skilled opponents there should be a wall of Guardians or other fodder preventing any charge by the Eversor into Dark Reapers. The Reapers can also be deployed by Loss blocking terrain that is not Ruins (thus preventing the wall breakthrough). It's really not that hard to keep him away.
I honestly find him to be the weakest of the assassin's. The Calidus is worse at actually killing something of value, but you can use her to force more CP spending so that's good.
You are right eversor is the less scary imho too. And you can screen him off, yes, but it is still one more thing to consider, and he is just 85 points... All in all eldar players probably don’t fear assassins as much on a table with terrain to hide their psychers (no los needed to cast buffs and rebuffs right ?), they are not overly dependent on strats (callidius) and DR make minced meat of culexus.
Some of the powers need LoS and some don't.
You're right that Eldar are probably one of the least scared of them though.
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Post by: Klowny
Played a tournament on the weekend, my vindi took 11 kills over 3 games (granted alot of them were 3w markerlight characters from tau, and i got lucky with the MW and D3 rolls).
Couple of points.
Sure, the vindi wont one shot a character much at all, but i never DS him as having 72" range and a good position means its very hard to hide something out of LoS from him. If your double tapping him i found 2 turns to be enough to get 2 characters dead.
It took 2 turns to kill two psykers from a DG army (after DR saves). that meant the entire army lost alot of movement and durability as the - to hit power and additional movement was now gone.
One of the only good defences vs him is to hide out of LOS, usually backfield. This is very handy to me, as alot of these characters are crucially important to their armies effectiveness, and their auras become wildly less beneficial when they're cowering backfield.
I dont think the others offer much besides in extremely unique situations.
Units can be screened from the charges of the other two, the culexus is very good at scoring, especially just DS'ing onto something mid game. Goes without saying he completely invalidates smite spam armies, so he is king there.
101681
Post by: nordsturmking
addnid wrote:Audustum wrote:addnid wrote:Eversor charging from behind a wall with those 3d6 will wreck those reapers no ? Only the exarch can fire without needing LOS, so unless you happen to have a unit which can intercept (your farseer will likely be near your dark reapers so...).
If you play on planet bowling ball your fine but otherwise this guys is a nightmare.
All 4 assassins need to get to 120-130 points. A 33% increase, yep. Only Tau don’t that care much about them. They wreck most other armies for next to nothing. I do not know any comp imperium players who are not including at least three atm in their lists.
Well, if you're fighting a skilled opponents there should be a wall of Guardians or other fodder preventing any charge by the Eversor into Dark Reapers. The Reapers can also be deployed by Loss blocking terrain that is not Ruins (thus preventing the wall breakthrough). It's really not that hard to keep him away.
I honestly find him to be the weakest of the assassin's. The Calidus is worse at actually killing something of value, but you can use her to force more CP spending so that's good.
You are right eversor is the less scary imho too. And you can screen him off, yes, but it is still one more thing to consider, and he is just 85 points... All in all eldar players probably don’t fear assassins as much on a table with terrain to hide their psychers (no los needed to cast buffs and rebuffs right ?), they are not overly dependent on strats (callidius) and DR make minced meat of culexus.
Yeah this is a big problem since eldar soup is one of the weakest army ins the game.... i think a little salt in the eldar soup is much needed.
60415
Post by: Mandragola
So I took my four new assassins along to the UKGT last weekend. Here's how they got on:
The Vindicare rolled a hell of a lot of 1s. In the first game I used him he didn't kill anything, despite firing for the whole game. He literally wounded one model but didn't kill it and after throwing two CPs at him to fire twice for the first two turns I gave up. This was particularly frustrating in a game vs Eldar that was stuffed full of characters, none of which he could kill! However later on he did win me the "cut off the head" mission. He only killed one model, but it was a herald with an intelligence point, meaning I outscored my opponent over the course of the game despite him flooding the centre of the board with plaguebearers. If he was less unlucky this guy could be decent. I also used him in a late game against IG but that was a waste - my opponent's characters hid behind a wall and never came out.
I ran the Callidus twice and she wasn't awesome to be honest. I think she cost my opponent a couple of CPs in one game and none in the other. However this may have been partly because both opponents were reluctant to spend any CPs. She did something like one mortal wound in total between both games, thanks to failing her charges! Had she not failed a 6" charge in one of those she'd have been able to cut up an IG warlord though, and that might have helped.
I never picked the Culexus. It's actually quite hard to imagine a game where I would. If the other guy has a lot of psykers trying to smite you you'd be a lot better off with a Vindicare - albeit if you could find one who was less short-sighted than mine.
I only picked the Eversor once and forgot to deploy him (!). Two people used them against me though, and one of those used three of them. In the first game he charged a squad of 5 intercessors, killed one with his power sword and got beaten to death for his trouble. In the second two of them came at me with their claws instead. I had to take 14 4+ armour saves against these and managed to fail 12 of them! So in this case the Eversors did well, because I couldn't roll armour saves all weekend. Or dice in general.
Overall the Vindicare showed the most potential I think. Eversors and Callidus are certainly interesting too. Culexus are basically pointless.
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Post by: U02dah4
If the callidus made your opponents reluctant to spend CPs in T1 and T2 she has done her job. Had she not been there what impact would your opponents strats have on the game.
Smiteing demons and GK might be a little hard to snipe in some cases magnus for example. The main other value is the fight last strat which is one of the strongest when used in conjunction with melee units.
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Post by: necron99
I have a ITC game next week with my of my peeps and he's been playing a Mortarion+Magnus list recently so I assume that's what I'll be seeing. I play guard+Castellan and have recently made room for one assassin...but which one? I'm sure he has one or two more characters in his list. I doubt the vindi would be doing much against the big guys so is he the most efficient in this one game or is a culexus a better choice?
110187
Post by: U02dah4
Use the strat wait to see his list
Then sideboard in most appropriate
88295
Post by: Neophyte2012
Horst wrote: Eihnlazer wrote:Both vindicare and callidus are good againgst all opponents.
Eversor is good againgst hoards of any type.
Culexus is really only good againgst a psycher heavy army that cant outmaneuver you. He's definitely the weakest overall choice, but can certainly do well againgst specific builds.
Culexis looks like a great choice against 'Nids and GSC. The only real reason I have him is to try to block Mental Onslaught if the GSC player tries to stack leadership to 1 hit KO a Knight. Soul Horror is great against them as well, put him right behind a Knight, and if they get a T1 charge off on it, the Knight attacks first. Good stuff.
Culexis also looks good against Thousand Sons.
A single Culexus is useless against Thousand Sons whose psychic powers are mostly 24", and most of the psykers can move 12+ D6". So the Culexus must be 1): put dangerously close to the enemy to stop them hurting your units, hence 2): Thousand Sons can then easily kill the Culexus with hordes of Tzaangors or Cultists, even If these chaffs failed to kill the Culexus, their superior numbers means they could warp up the the assassin to pin him in place, then all the Soccerors and DPs can move fly around the guy and keep wrecking havoc.
So if you take Culexus against Tsons. Always take 3 Culexus.
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Post by: RogueApiary
Don't forget the Culexus can stop a Knight gallant from going through any gaps smaller than 9" just by standing in the center of the gap. The base can't move past without getting within an inch of him so the Gallant has to attempt to kill him in CC or take the long way around.
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