Who can defeat the Lord of Changes in a psychic duel? I'm not talking about the most powerful like Kairos, but let's say the average Lord of Changes.
Can the average tyranid Maleceptor or Eldar Farseer/Wraithseer/Shadowseer defeat the Great Daemon of Tzeentch?
We are talking about the average against the average, that is, there is no Magnus or Eldrad.
Draigo certainly could but he is on the level of Eldrad etc. In that he is an outlier in power not the norm for a grandmaster. I mean the guy banished a daemon Prince on his first day on the job as a grey knight.
In game terms -
Nothing short of a FW or Magnus stands a chance against a LOC in a psychic duel. Even if melle is considered...it only gets worse for the opposing psyker - LOC is very good in CC.
A 6 man unit of Zonethropes is probably the most capable non super hero capable of facing off with only psychic powers.
I suppose it would also depend on the location of the duel, i.e. is it happening on some random world where the LoC was temporarily summoned or is this happening in the warp, maybe even in Tzeentch's realm?
Why do people say to Draigo ? When I wrote about the average against the average, I meant that there were no big names. So I clarified about Eldrad and Magnus, but it also includes everyone like them, like Draigo or Emperor or Doom of Malan'tai
So what about the tyranid maleceptor? I would say that zoonthropes and neurotropes can take on the horrors of Tzeentch and flamers of Tzeentch , but what about the battle of larger monsters?
Lords of Change are some of the most powerful psykers in existence. No way the average farseer or librarian even stands a bit of a chance against them. Only really powerful individuals like Eldrad can clash minds with a Lord of Change and come out on top. Others would just be driven insane.
So an average LoC will win vs any other 'average' psyker.
Your average Grey Knight Grand Master or Supreme Grand Master, maybe - but they'd be about the only things I reckon could do it. Eldar, good as they are, are not up to snuff for this one.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Your average Grey Knight Grand Master or Supreme Grand Master, maybe - but they'd be about the only things I reckon could do it. Eldar, good as they are, are not up to snuff for this one.
What? Farseers are certainly more capable psykers than Grey Knight Grand Masters.
The Emperor can definitely defeat LoC, but that id a "god level" being.......
Remember GK Brother Captain Stern? He had defeat one of this greater daemon more than once, but got cursed by it. I think Draigo might be able to defeat LoCs as well, he might have encountered them many times walking in the warp.
Malcador: Bring out yer dead! [Rogal Dorn appears with the Emperor slung over his shoulder] Rogal Dorn: Here's one. M: Nine pence. Emperor: I'm not dead. M: What? RD: Nothing. [hands Malcador his money] There's your nine pence. E: I'm not dead! M: 'Ere, he says he's not dead. RD: Yes he is. E: I'm not. M: He isn't. RD: Well, he will be soon, he's very hurt. E: I'm getting better. RD: No you're not, you'll be stone dead in a moment. M: Well, I can't take him like that. It's against regulations. E: I don't want to go on the throne. RD:' Oh, don't be such a baby. M: I can't take him. E: I feel fine. RD: Oh, do me a favor. M: I can't. RD: Well, can you hang around for a couple of minutes? He won't be long. M: I promised I'd be at Fenris. They've lost nine today. RD: Well, when's your next round? M: Thursday. E: I think I'll go for a walk. RD: You're not fooling anyone, you know. Isn't there anything you could do? E: I feel happy. I feel happy. [Malcador paces for an idea, then whacks the body with his club, solving the problem] RD: Ah, thank you very much. M: Not at all. See you on Thursday. RD: Right.
Iron_Captain wrote: Lords of Change are some of the most powerful psykers in existence. No way the average farseer or librarian even stands a bit of a chance against them. Only really powerful individuals like Eldrad can clash minds with a Lord of Change and come out on top. Others would just be driven insane.
So an average LoC will win vs any other 'average' psyker.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Your average Grey Knight Grand Master or Supreme Grand Master, maybe - but they'd be about the only things I reckon could do it. Eldar, good as they are, are not up to snuff for this one.
What? Farseers are certainly more capable psykers than Grey Knight Grand Masters.
Says where? I dont really buy this piece of propaganda. Do not confuse eldrad plot armor with overall power of farseers.
Says where? I dont really buy this piece of propaganda. Do not confuse eldrad plot armor with overall power of farseers.
Everyone know that the Eldar are the best mortal psykers. Even Farseer's rules reflect this, they have more denys and a psychic reroll. GM's fluff section doesn't even mention them being particularly über psykers, they're 'just' on par with librarians, merely better fighters.
I don't see where people get that Grey Knights are some uber psycher. They are strong psychers over-specialized in protection and banishement of daemons and trained to work together in rituals and as a team, but I have never seen stated for them to be specially powerfull compared with things like normal Librarians, individually, in relation to their psychic power.
Galas wrote: I don't see where people get that Grey Knights are some uber psycher. They are strong psychers uber-specialized in protection and banishement of daemons and trained to work together in rituals and as a team, but I have never seen stated for them to be specially powerfull compared with things like normal Librarians, individually, in relation to their psychic power.
Says where? I dont really buy this piece of propaganda. Do not confuse eldrad plot armor with overall power of farseers.
Everyone know that the Eldar are the best mortal psykers. Even Farseer's rules reflect this, they have more denys and a psychic reroll. GM's fluff section doesn't even mention them being particularly über psykers, they're 'just' on par with librarians, merely better fighters.
Who is everyone. I did not know and im sure many others would contest your statement.
Who is everyone. I did not know and im sure many others would contest your statement.
Well now you know. You're welcome.
I disagree. Clearly sanctioned Imperial Psykers are far stronger. Because I said so.
So you have somehow managed to miss the fact that one of the defining features of the Eldar is their psychic mastery?
They are more apt with the psychic abilities they have and are more knowledgeable of the ways of the warp but they don't necessarily have more raw psychic power.
Who is everyone. I did not know and im sure many others would contest your statement.
Well now you know. You're welcome.
I disagree. Clearly sanctioned Imperial Psykers are far stronger. Because I said so.
So you have somehow managed to miss the fact that one of the defining features of the Eldar is their psychic mastery?
They are more apt with the psychic abilities they have and are more knowledgeable of the ways of the warp but they don't necessarily have more raw psychic power.
This is true. Is not that Eldar Psychers are just more powerfull, is that the Eldar as a race, is a psychic race. The manipulation of the warp comes naturally to Eldars. Artists, artisans, all of them use it in a daily basis in a very natural way.
You don't have that with humans. Yeah, a SM Librarian can be, in raw power, as powerfull as a Eldar Farseer, and if they face power vs power like a kamehameha duel, they could be equal. But that Eldar Farseer will have a much higher understanding of the warp, and will know how to use it in a ton of different ways.
Eldar psykers are very limited in that they use runes, not warp directly. If the Farseer (even an ordinary warlock) uses his real power, he will easily defeat the librarian. But then it will be devoured immediately by demons.
darkoms wrote: Eldar psykers are very limited in that they use runes, not warp directly. If the Farseer (even an ordinary warlock) uses his real power, he will easily defeat the librarian. But then it will be devoured immediately by demons.
The eldar use runes to focus and guide them as well as hide them from she/he. Its not some final form business from dragon ball z. I mean Ahriman and his band of misfits have been taking the piss out of the eldar in their own webway. And I would not call Ahriman or his 1kcronies "the most powerful psykers". I am afraid much fan boy hype is present. That is, unless anyone has any hard lore to disprove this.
The eldar use runes to focus and guide them as well as hide them from she/he. Its not some final form business from dragon ball z. I mean Ahriman and his band of misfits have been taking the piss out of the eldar in their own webway. And I would not call Ahriman or his 1kcronies "the most powerful psykers". I am afraid much fan boy hype is present. That is, unless anyone has any hard lore to disprove this.
What? Ahriman is easily the most powerful human originated Psyker sans some Daemon Primarchs and the Emperor...
You're completely clueless about this. There is really no lore about GK Grand Masters being particularly amazing psykers, sure, they're pretty damn powerful, but not better than Librarians (granted, in this specific task, namely defeating a daemon, they probably have some tricks in their ceramite sleeves.)
The Farseers are the top psykers of a race known for their psychic mastery and they have rules to back it up.
The only reason I specified Grey Knights is due to their anti-daemon capabilities.
In psychic power, they're high Space Marine tier, the same as a standard Farseer, but a good Farseer is a better psyker. However, I say that Grey Knights might stand a chance due to their warding, and specific anti-Daemonic knowledge, which is what the Eldar do lack.
So, purely on psychic power, sure, Eldar are better, but if we're actually looking at their entire range of equipment and skills, Grey Knights are hard to deny as being good anti-Daemon units.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: The only reason I specified Grey Knights is due to their anti-daemon capabilities.
In psychic power, they're high Space Marine tier, the same as a standard Farseer, but a good Farseer is a better psyker. However, I say that Grey Knights might stand a chance due to their warding, and specific anti-Daemonic knowledge, which is what the Eldar do lack.
So, purely on psychic power, sure, Eldar are better, but if we're actually looking at their entire range of equipment and skills, Grey Knights are hard to deny as being good anti-Daemon units.
This is why I also think a GK Grandmaster would be one of the best choices. Everyone is discounting their sheer strength of mind in terms of psychic resistance.
Marbo, of course. The lord of change attempts to call upon the power of the warp, and realizes that Marbo has infiltrated its brain and replaced the warp with a demolition charge. The lord of change explodes, Marbo grins smugly as everything unfolds Just As Planned.
Peregrine wrote: Marbo, of course. The lord of change attempts to call upon the power of the warp, and realizes that Marbo has infiltrated its brain and replaced the warp with a demolition charge. The lord of change explodes, Marbo grins smugly as everything unfolds Just As Planned.
Who is everyone. I did not know and im sure many others would contest your statement.
Well now you know. You're welcome.
I disagree. Clearly sanctioned Imperial Psykers are far stronger. Because I said so.
So you have somehow managed to miss the fact that one of the defining features of the Eldar is their psychic mastery?
They are more apt with the psychic abilities they have and are more knowledgeable of the ways of the warp but they don't necessarily have more raw psychic power.
This is true. Is not that Eldar Psychers are just more powerfull, is that the Eldar as a race, is a psychic race. The manipulation of the warp comes naturally to Eldars. Artists, artisans, all of them use it in a daily basis in a very natural way.
You don't have that with humans. Yeah, a SM Librarian can be, in raw power, as powerfull as a Eldar Farseer, and if they face power vs power like a kamehameha duel, they could be equal. But that Eldar Farseer will have a much higher understanding of the warp, and will know how to use it in a ton of different ways.
Wonder why farseer's aren't shown to do tricks human alpha psykers can do. Those alpha's make mockery of librarians etc capable of swatting titans aside if so comes. Far above your average human psyker.
Farseers in game term are seriously watered down if they still can beat those alpha psykers.
What about tyranid psychers? I don't know how powerful the loc is but zoanthrope broods and maleceptors are incredible psychers. Can somebody with knowledge of both please compare them?
LeviathanSwarmlord wrote: What about tyranid psychers? I don't know how powerful the loc is but zoanthrope broods and maleceptors are incredible psychers. Can somebody with knowledge of both please compare them?
There's only one instance of Daemons Vs Nids that I can think of and during that conflict the Daemons outmatched the Nids in all aspects except for resources: the Nids had a planet worth of biomass to fuel them whilst the Daemons had a large warp portal and that's it. The Nids just kept throwing bodies at the Daemons until the Nurgle Daemons were destroyed in an attempt to break the stailmate, the Tzeentch Daemons left because no souls were being reaped and the Slaanesh and Khorne Daemons were pushed back into the warp by a sea of a dead Nids.
No mention of the Daemons being affected by Nids warp abilities though and the LoC who lead the Tzeentch forces was not harmed by the Nids.
Since I saw someone mistake Ahriman as the most powerful human originated psyker it made me think of the actual most powerful human originated psyker; Malcador. I wonder if he'd give a LoC a good match. Oh but average. Well on average the eldar race smokes any average human psyker. Bear in mind the psyker's in military roles for Imperium number far far less then the much much more common and average psyker whom fills the role of astropaths as well as the long line up of psykers being fed to that soul eating daemon on the golden throne. If we worked out averages they'd end up representing it.
ProwlerPC wrote: Since I saw someone mistake Ahriman as the most powerful human originated psyker it made me think of the actual most powerful human originated psyker; Malcador. I wonder if he'd give a LoC a good match. Oh but average. Well on average the eldar race smokes any average human psyker. Bear in mind the psyker's in military roles for Imperium number far far less then the much much more common and average psyker whom fills the role of astropaths as well as the long line up of psykers being fed to that soul eating daemon on the golden throne. If we worked out averages they'd end up representing it.
Malcador is 100% dead (not only mostly dead like the Emperor, he is completely dead). I assumed that means he does not qualify.
darkoms wrote: Who can defeat the Lord of Changes in a psychic duel? I'm not talking about the most powerful like Kairos, but let's say the average Lord of Changes.
Can the average tyranid Maleceptor or Eldar Farseer/Wraithseer/Shadowseer defeat the Great Daemon of Tzeentch?
We are talking about the average against the average, that is, there is no Magnus or Eldrad.
Considering how the "average" lord of change is a creature born from the god of sorcery...no. No average mortal can beat it.
The eldar use runes to focus and guide them as well as hide them from she/he. Its not some final form business from dragon ball z. I mean Ahriman and his band of misfits have been taking the piss out of the eldar in their own webway. And I would not call Ahriman or his 1kcronies "the most powerful psykers". I am afraid much fan boy hype is present. That is, unless anyone has any hard lore to disprove this.
What? Ahriman is easily the most powerful human originated Psyker sans some Daemon Primarchs and the Emperor...
You're completely clueless about this. There is really no lore about GK Grand Masters being particularly amazing psykers, sure, they're pretty damn powerful, but not better than Librarians (granted, in this specific task, namely defeating a daemon, they probably have some tricks in their ceramite sleeves.)
The Farseers are the top psykers of a race known for their psychic mastery and they have rules to back it up.
Rules do not mirror lore. If I have no clue about this subject then please, educate me. Procure some tangible documentation to back your claim. Getting puffy helps no one here. Once I can read some hard lore on your statement I will gladly accept that my previous statements were made in ignorance.
Even if rules do not reflect lore perfectly, doesn't mean they don't reflect it at all. Space marines are physically stronger than normal humans, thus they have better strength score.
If I have no clue about this subject then please, educate me. Procure some tangible documentation to back your claim. Getting puffy helps no one here. Once I can read some hard lore on your statement I will gladly accept that my previous statements were made in ignorance.
If you have somehow missed that the whole niche of Eldar is being a psychic master race, then you're beyond help.
Even if rules do not reflect lore perfectly, doesn't mean they don't reflect it at all. Space marines are physically stronger than normal humans, thus they have better strength score.
If I have no clue about this subject then please, educate me. Procure some tangible documentation to back your claim. Getting puffy helps no one here. Once I can read some hard lore on your statement I will gladly accept that my previous statements were made in ignorance.
If you have somehow missed that the whole niche of Eldar is being a psychic master race, then you're beyond help.
Just because you say or think something does not make it true. I am asking you to back up your claim. Which you will not do. I cant go any further until you do. Because honestly at this point you come across as a eldar fanboy that is getting his feathers ruffled. And I do not mean that as a insult.
If you are going to make a blanket statement you need proof. You have none. Please educate me. Until that time I say eldar are no more powerful than human because I have yet to read any official lore stating this. And Black Library sadly does not count.
For the last time. Please provide proof to back your claim.
Just because you say or think something does not make it true. I am asking you to back up your claim. Which you will not do. I cant go any further until you do. Because honestly at this point you come across as a eldar fanboy that is getting his feathers ruffled. And I do not mean that as a insult.
If you are going to make a blanket statement you need proof. You have none. Please educate me. Until that time I say eldar are no more powerful than human because I have yet to read any official lore stating this. And Black Library sadly does not count.
For the last time. Please provide proof to back your claim.
By quickly skimming the codex:
Codex Craftworlds
wrote: Beyond these physical superiorities, each of their race is also psychic to one extent or another; it is said the ancient Aeldari could read thoughts at a glance, whilst those who trained their minds for war could crush a foe’s weapon with a simple narrowing of the eyes. Even the complex technology of the craftworlds is based upon psychic engineering, the manipulation of and creation of matter using mental energies alone. But such raw power has its price.
Craftworld Ulthwé is home to many of the most powerful psykers in the galaxy.
The latent psychic talent of the Aeldari and the incredible discipline of the Asuryani combine to produce some of the most formidable psykers in the galaxy, capable of bolstering their allies, hindering their foes and unleashing raw destructive power.
Asking source for the Eldar being the most psychic race like is asking source for Orks being green.
LeviathanSwarmlord wrote: What about tyranid psychers? I don't know how powerful the loc is but zoanthrope broods and maleceptors are incredible psychers. Can somebody with knowledge of both please compare them?
There's only one instance of Daemons Vs Nids that I can think of and during that conflict the Daemons outmatched the Nids in all aspects except for resources: the Nids had a planet worth of biomass to fuel them whilst the Daemons had a large warp portal and that's it. The Nids just kept throwing bodies at the Daemons until the Nurgle Daemons were destroyed in an attempt to break the stailmate, the Tzeentch Daemons left because no souls were being reaped and the Slaanesh and Khorne Daemons were pushed back into the warp by a sea of a dead Nids.
No mention of the Daemons being affected by Nids warp abilities though and the LoC who lead the Tzeentch forces was not harmed by the Nids.
if you are talking about the Shadowbrink, then it is clearly stated there that the Shadow in the Warp blocked the forces of the Great Unclean One, and Lord Change simply went back to Warp
LeviathanSwarmlord wrote: What about tyranid psychers? I don't know how powerful the loc is but zoanthrope broods and maleceptors are incredible psychers. Can somebody with knowledge of both please compare them?
There's only one instance of Daemons Vs Nids that I can think of and during that conflict the Daemons outmatched the Nids in all aspects except for resources: the Nids had a planet worth of biomass to fuel them whilst the Daemons had a large warp portal and that's it. The Nids just kept throwing bodies at the Daemons until the Nurgle Daemons were destroyed in an attempt to break the stailmate, the Tzeentch Daemons left because no souls were being reaped and the Slaanesh and Khorne Daemons were pushed back into the warp by a sea of a dead Nids.
No mention of the Daemons being affected by Nids warp abilities though and the LoC who lead the Tzeentch forces was not harmed by the Nids.
if you are talking about the Shadowbrink, then it is clearly stated there that the Shadow in the Warp blocked the forces of the Great Unclean One, and Lord Change simply went back to Warp
There is also a mention of the battle in which the Bloodthristher fought against the Carnifex, and the Zonthrops with the Lords of Change, but there are no specifics. Perhaps one Lord had several Zonthrops. The strongest psyker of tyranids are Maleceptors, perhaps they can defeat Lord 1 by 1
Just because you say or think something does not make it true. I am asking you to back up your claim. Which you will not do. I cant go any further until you do. Because honestly at this point you come across as a eldar fanboy that is getting his feathers ruffled. And I do not mean that as a insult.
If you are going to make a blanket statement you need proof. You have none. Please educate me. Until that time I say eldar are no more powerful than human because I have yet to read any official lore stating this. And Black Library sadly does not count.
For the last time. Please provide proof to back your claim.
By quickly skimming the codex:
Codex Craftworlds
wrote: Beyond these physical superiorities, each of their race is also psychic to one extent or another; it is said the ancient Aeldari could read thoughts at a glance, whilst those who trained their minds for war could crush a foe’s weapon with a simple narrowing of the eyes. Even the complex technology of the craftworlds is based upon psychic engineering, the manipulation of and creation of matter using mental energies alone. But such raw power has its price.
Craftworld Ulthwé is home to many of the most powerful psykers in the galaxy.
The latent psychic talent of the Aeldari and the incredible discipline of the Asuryani combine to produce some of the most formidable psykers in the galaxy, capable of bolstering their allies, hindering their foes and unleashing raw destructive power.
Asking source for the Eldar being the most psychic race like is asking source for Orks being green.
None of what you have quoted has stated that Eldar are the most powerful psykers. We are not talking about Eldar "being the most psychic race". You are shifting the goal post here. Once more, in my desire for education, I ask you present proof to your statement that Eldar are the most powerful psykers. Please do not move the goal post.
"The latent psychic talent of the Aeldari and the incredible discipline of the Asuryani combine to produce some of the most formidable psykers in the galaxy" seems to do that.
pm713 wrote: "The latent psychic talent of the Aeldari and the incredible discipline of the Asuryani combine to produce some of the most formidable psykers in the galaxy" seems to do that.
"Some of the most formidable"
"In the Galaxy"
That doesn't necessarily mean the average Farseer is source to some of the greatest psychic abilities in their own galaxy, let alone being able to contend with the psychic ability of warp beings. All this proves is that the Eldar race has the ability to produce extremely powerful psykers like Eldrad, however it is not suggested whether this is the exception or the rule.
pm713 wrote: "The latent psychic talent of the Aeldari and the incredible discipline of the Asuryani combine to produce some of the most formidable psykers in the galaxy" seems to do that.
"Some of the most formidable"
"In the Galaxy"
That doesn't necessarily mean the average Farseer is source to some of the greatest psychic abilities in their own galaxy, let alone being able to contend with the psychic ability of warp beings. All this proves is that the Eldar race has the ability to produce extremely powerful psykers like Eldrad, however it is not suggested whether this is the exception or the rule.
Eldar became much weaker after the Fall. Azurmen notes that such as Eldrad almost never occur after the Fall. And this despite the fact that Eldrad holds back his power, as he uses runes.
As far as I know, the Eldar psykers before the fall were described as able to create and destroy stars.
pm713 wrote: "The latent psychic talent of the Aeldari and the incredible discipline of the Asuryani combine to produce some of the most formidable psykers in the galaxy" seems to do that.
"Some of the most formidable"
"In the Galaxy"
That doesn't necessarily mean the average Farseer is source to some of the greatest psychic abilities in their own galaxy, let alone being able to contend with the psychic ability of warp beings. All this proves is that the Eldar race has the ability to produce extremely powerful psykers like Eldrad, however it is not suggested whether this is the exception or the rule.
Eldar became much weaker after the Fall. Azurmen notes that such as Eldrad almost never occur after the Fall. And this despite the fact that Eldrad holds back his power, as he uses runes.
As far as I know, the Eldar psykers before the fall were described as able to create and destroy stars.
Well after Slaanesh's birth the Eldar gods were all either killed or reduced in a tremendous amount of power. The Eldar presence in the warp was almost quenched.
Galas wrote: I don't see where people get that Grey Knights are some uber psycher. They are strong psychers over-specialized in protection and banishement of daemons and trained to work together in rituals and as a team, but I have never seen stated for them to be specially powerfull compared with things like normal Librarians, individually, in relation to their psychic power.
Greyknights have a different recruiting process (A million planets psychic offerings compared to a space marine chapter home planet). Plus their training is different too. Essentially comparing a GK libby to a SM libby is like comparing real Madrid best players to some random college football team.
If we're being completely technical, no one can beat a Lord of Change unless Tzeench allows it to happen. By extension, ANYONE can if, again, Tzeench intends it. Being more powerful just makes it more inconvenient and challenging.
Squidsy22 wrote: If we're being completely technical, no one can beat a Lord of Change unless Tzeench allows it to happen. By extension, ANYONE can if, again, Tzeench intends it. Being more powerful just makes it more inconvenient and challenging.
You exaggerate the power of Tzeentch too much, he is not omnipotent
Squidsy22 wrote: If we're being completely technical, no one can beat a Lord of Change unless Tzeench allows it to happen. By extension, ANYONE can if, again, Tzeench intends it. Being more powerful just makes it more inconvenient and challenging.
You exaggerate the power of Tzeentch too much, he is not omnipotent
Everything that has happened and will happen is all a part of Tzeentch's grand plan, even when Tzeentch is supposedly defeated, it is all done to serve a greater purpose.
darkoms wrote: You exaggerate the power of Tzeentch too much, he is not omnipotent
Omnipotent? No, not at all. Omniscient, however, absolutely. He knows everything that could happen in infinite timelines, and is clever enough to subtly influence the state of the universe (which timeline he's in) Eons in advance to fulfill his schemes. Our only saving grace is that, as the lord of change and ambition, he will never allow himself (or his foes) any true and final victories. After all, if he had an end goal, he would inevitably reach it, and after that cease to exist; no longer having any ambition to chase or change to enact.
darkoms wrote: You exaggerate the power of Tzeentch too much, he is not omnipotent
Omnipotent? No, not at all. Omniscient, however, absolutely. He knows everything that could happen in infinite timelines, and is clever enough to subtly influence the state of the universe (which timeline he's in) Eons in advance to fulfill his schemes. Our only saving grace is that, as the lord of change and ambition, he will never allow himself (or his foes) any true and final victories. After all, if he had an end goal, he would inevitably reach it, and after that cease to exist; no longer having any ambition to chase or change to enact.
He is not omniscient, read the story of the origin of Kairos and the Well of Eternity
darkoms wrote: You exaggerate the power of Tzeentch too much, he is not omnipotent
Omnipotent? No, not at all. Omniscient, however, absolutely. He knows everything that could happen in infinite timelines, and is clever enough to subtly influence the state of the universe (which timeline he's in) Eons in advance to fulfill his schemes. Our only saving grace is that, as the lord of change and ambition, he will never allow himself (or his foes) any true and final victories. After all, if he had an end goal, he would inevitably reach it, and after that cease to exist; no longer having any ambition to chase or change to enact.
He is not omniscient, read the story of the origin of Kairos and the Well of Eternity
But through Kairos he's almost omniscient and with Tzeentch's infinite wisdom that's good enough. There's the whole thing about Kairos telling one lie and one truth but i should think that the god of trickery and scheming is quick enough to catch which is which.
They are not omniscient not omnipotent. They aren't even free. All four of them are slaves of the rules of their own birth and nature. Khorne will never stop fighting, Tzeentch will never stop scheming, etc, etc...
The Sondheim fluff describes Lords of Change duelling with Zoanthropes, but that doesn’t mean the Zoanthropes we’re capable of winning. For Tyranids I imagine it’s a numbers game mostly: individual Zoanthropes will be thrashed, but in numbers a Lord of Change will be overwhelmed.
Neurothropes are just Zoanthropes with a soul siphon... if one managed to fill up and land a hit it may well knock a Lord of Change out... if it can land a hit.
Further up the chain is the Doom of Malan’tai. At a basic level it’s just a Neurothrope, but given a psychic food supply it could reach levels of power great enough to give just about anything pause for thought. Again, has to land a hit. I would think of it like a samurai fighting an angry Triceratops. If the Triceratops hits then it’s over, but the samurai is probably skilled enough to avoid being hit by many attacks.
Side note, it’s never been explored how Tyranid psychic siphons interact with Daemons. They can drain souls (which are just structured psychic energy) so perhaps a destabilised Daemon could find itself swallowed up and spat out as a Warp blast? Interesting notion.
I have left Maleceptors until last because they are the most interesting, and are the Tyranids’ most advanced anti-psyker weapon seen to date. A single Maleceptor was able to overwhelm Tigurius with minimal effort (until he channeled the light of the Astronomicon into its face through Malcador’s staff) and three together were able to crush Mephiston’s power so completely that he was effectively comatose for the rest of the Cryptus campaign. Maleceptors seem to be much more cunning in their attacks, wearing their prey down before delivering a killing blow. The Shadow in the Warp is weaponised, and it’s becoming increasingly well documented that the Shadow in the Warp can overpower Chaos (and vice versa, it’s a matter of who has greater resources on hand) so the psychic shadow tentacles Maleceptors can generate may be an ideal weapon to stab into a Daemon. Something we can hopefully see more of in the future...
darkoms wrote: You exaggerate the power of Tzeentch too much, he is not omnipotent
Omnipotent? No, not at all. Omniscient, however, absolutely. He knows everything that could happen in infinite timelines, and is clever enough to subtly influence the state of the universe (which timeline he's in) Eons in advance to fulfill his schemes. Our only saving grace is that, as the lord of change and ambition, he will never allow himself (or his foes) any true and final victories. After all, if he had an end goal, he would inevitably reach it, and after that cease to exist; no longer having any ambition to chase or change to enact.
He is not omniscient, read the story of the origin of Kairos and the Well of Eternity
But through Kairos he's almost omniscient and with Tzeentch's infinite wisdom that's good enough. There's the whole thing about Kairos telling one lie and one truth but i should think that the god of trickery and scheming is quick enough to catch which is which.
It's also really easy to work out which head lies and ignore it from after that.
Squidsy22 wrote: He knows everything that could happen in infinite timelines
Except where Marbo is hiding, and how Marbo is going to kill him. Nobody ever sees Marbo infiltrating their pants and replacing their with a demolition charge.
darkoms wrote: You exaggerate the power of Tzeentch too much, he is not omnipotent
Omnipotent? No, not at all. Omniscient, however, absolutely. He knows everything that could happen in infinite timelines, and is clever enough to subtly influence the state of the universe (which timeline he's in) Eons in advance to fulfill his schemes. Our only saving grace is that, as the lord of change and ambition, he will never allow himself (or his foes) any true and final victories. After all, if he had an end goal, he would inevitably reach it, and after that cease to exist; no longer having any ambition to chase or change to enact.
He is not omniscient, read the story of the origin of Kairos and the Well of Eternity
But through Kairos he's almost omniscient and with Tzeentch's infinite wisdom that's good enough. There's the whole thing about Kairos telling one lie and one truth but i should think that the god of trickery and scheming is quick enough to catch which is which.
It's also really easy to work out which head lies and ignore it from after that.
darkoms wrote: You exaggerate the power of Tzeentch too much, he is not omnipotent
Omnipotent? No, not at all. Omniscient, however, absolutely. He knows everything that could happen in infinite timelines, and is clever enough to subtly influence the state of the universe (which timeline he's in) Eons in advance to fulfill his schemes. Our only saving grace is that, as the lord of change and ambition, he will never allow himself (or his foes) any true and final victories. After all, if he had an end goal, he would inevitably reach it, and after that cease to exist; no longer having any ambition to chase or change to enact.
He is not omniscient, read the story of the origin of Kairos and the Well of Eternity
But through Kairos he's almost omniscient and with Tzeentch's infinite wisdom that's good enough. There's the whole thing about Kairos telling one lie and one truth but i should think that the god of trickery and scheming is quick enough to catch which is which.
It's also really easy to work out which head lies and ignore it from after that.
Tsilber wrote: Lorgar, he defeated Fateweaver in "Aurelian". And that was right after he defeated Ann'grath the unbound. (Big bad, named Bloodthrister)
The Ruinous Powers also had a vested interest in Lorgar winning.
That said, Primarchs have a pretty good showing against Greater Daemons. Except for Sanguinius losing agianst Ka'banda that one time.
Any kind of Daemon already has the odds stacked against them for being named characters that can die without really dying. That's why I never count one on one fights between a Daemon and a mortal as cannon since the Daemon isn't allowed to win.
mrhappyface wrote: Any kind of Daemon already has the odds stacked against them for being named characters that can die without really dying. That's why I never count one on one fights between a Daemon and a mortal as cannon since the Daemon isn't allowed to win.
Funny thing is, this is technically not true. Daemons, even named ones, die all the time, being killed so hard their essence is gone. See M'kar for one big example.
mrhappyface wrote: Any kind of Daemon already has the odds stacked against them for being named characters that can die without really dying. That's why I never count one on one fights between a Daemon and a mortal as cannon since the Daemon isn't allowed to win.
Funny thing is, this is technically not true. Daemons, even named ones, die all the time, being killed so hard their essence is gone. See M'kar for one big example.
6 in all of Warhammer 40k Lore. Of course I'm sure in the background, without names or mentions, theres more. But is not common to give True Death to a daemon.
6 in all of Warhammer 40k Lore. Of course I'm sure in the background, without names or mentions, theres more. But is not common to give True Death to a daemon.
Yes, all the time. Ask yourself a simple question, if it's possible to do for a mook Chapter Master or Inquisitor who don't really have a lot of anti-daemon training/knowledge, then it can't be that hard to do and people who actually know what they are doing, like GK or some Eldar, must find it a lot easier. Occam's razor, really.
Doubly so seeing almost all your examples are from last century of M41, so unless daemons hate that number for some reason, there had to be on average similar number of deaths in all of 100 centuries of IoM existence. We just didn't hear about them as most of 40K fiction was placed in M41.
6 in all of Warhammer 40k Lore. Of course I'm sure in the background, without names or mentions, theres more. But is not common to give True Death to a daemon.
I don't recall it ever being said that Kar'voth was permanently killed. The Daemons Draigo slew in the Warp returned.
I also don't know if it's confirmed that Prophantii permanently died or if it was only ever Eisenhorn susepcting it.
Irbis wrote:Yes, all the time. Ask yourself a simple question, if it's possible to do for a mook Chapter Master or Inquisitor who don't really have a lot of anti-daemon training/knowledge, then it can't be that hard to do and people who actually know what they are doing, like GK or some Eldar, must find it a lot easier. Occam's razor, really.
No, the Grey Knights do not have the capability to readily permanently destroy Daemons. If they did they wouldn't have trouble with Daemons returning to the Materium after being defeated.
It's incredibly rare for it to occur and often only in exceptional circumstances.
Happyjew wrote: Malcador: Bring out yer dead!
[Rogal Dorn appears with the Emperor slung over his shoulder]
Rogal Dorn: Here's one.
M: Nine pence.
Emperor: I'm not dead.
M: What?
RD: Nothing. [hands Malcador his money] There's your nine pence.
E: I'm not dead!
M: 'Ere, he says he's not dead.
RD: Yes he is.
E: I'm not.
M: He isn't.
RD: Well, he will be soon, he's very hurt.
E: I'm getting better.
RD: No you're not, you'll be stone dead in a moment.
M: Well, I can't take him like that. It's against regulations.
E: I don't want to go on the throne.
RD:' Oh, don't be such a baby.
M: I can't take him.
E: I feel fine.
RD: Oh, do me a favor.
M: I can't.
RD: Well, can you hang around for a couple of minutes? He won't be long.
M: I promised I'd be at Fenris. They've lost nine today.
RD: Well, when's your next round?
M: Thursday.
E: I think I'll go for a walk.
RD: You're not fooling anyone, you know. Isn't there anything you could do?
E: I feel happy. I feel happy.
[Malcador paces for an idea, then whacks the body with his club, solving the problem]
RD: Ah, thank you very much.
M: Not at all. See you on Thursday.
RD: Right.
This is the best thing I have read online all day!! Well done, man!!! Thank you for such an awesome laugh!
6 in all of Warhammer 40k Lore. Of course I'm sure in the background, without names or mentions, theres more. But is not common to give True Death to a daemon.
Yes, all the time. Ask yourself a simple question, if it's possible to do for a mook Chapter Master or Inquisitor who don't really have a lot of anti-daemon training/knowledge, then it can't be that hard to do and people who actually know what they are doing, like GK or some Eldar, must find it a lot easier. Occam's razor, really.
Doubly so seeing almost all your examples are from last century of M41, so unless daemons hate that number for some reason, there had to be on average similar number of deaths in all of 100 centuries of IoM existence. We just didn't hear about them as most of 40K fiction was placed in M41.
Most of those are done by unique weapons. The others are by Tzeentch, massive psychic channeling and Draigo. On top of those the only other Demon I know to die permanently was killed by Asurmen. So it's pretty rare.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Your average Grey Knight Grand Master or Supreme Grand Master, maybe - but they'd be about the only things I reckon could do it. Eldar, good as they are, are not up to snuff for this one.
What? Farseers are certainly more capable psykers than Grey Knight Grand Masters.
While true, Grey Knights' psychic powers and auras are tailored to directly negate and dispell the forces of Chaos.
If it's a battle of purely warp-based attacks, 7th sisters of silence and 3rd ed pariahs win since they are nulls. Meaning, no matter how strong one's Empyrean based attacks are, they will have no effect on psychic nulls.
skchsan wrote: If it's a battle of purely warp-based attacks, 7th sisters of silence and 3rd ed pariahs win since they are nulls. Meaning, no matter how strong one's Empyrean based attacks are, they will have no effect on psychic nulls.
I think some fluff has suggested that powerful enough Psykers can over come less powerful Blanks. Daemons, despite being composed of Warp energy, are still capable of striking them. There are also Psychic powers that you can use to manipulate physical objects as weapons (e.g. telekinetically hurl rocks at opponents). A Lord of change would have a significant advantage over a single Sister of Silence or Pariah.
Malcador seemed fully capable of using alpha level psychic powers without showing any discomfort even though surrounded by sisters of silence. Pretty sure other high end psykers are similar.
ProwlerPC wrote: Malcador seemed fully capable of using alpha level psychic powers without showing any discomfort even though surrounded by sisters of silence. Pretty sure other high end psykers are similar.
Take a hugely powerful null effect to even make Emparor, Magnus, Macaldor think twice about it.
Short of greater deamons or gods, there aint much more powerful.
"While true, Grey Knights' psychic powers and auras are tailored to directly negate and dispell the forces of Chaos."
On the tabletop? Yes, or at least currently (Ghosthelms...)
In the fluff? No. Farseers are always fighting Chaos. It's just that that fight is in the background on the tabletop. Much like IG don't roll for the common cold each round, the Farseer is constantly evading Chaos.
I would imagine that if the Farseer were only dealing with the LoC, he'd have a much better chance than if he's also worrying about Slanesh. Not sure that alone would be enough. The whole being-invisible-to-it thing might help too, but I'm not 100% that that hasn't changed.
Bharring wrote: "While true, Grey Knights' psychic powers and auras are tailored to directly negate and dispell the forces of Chaos."
On the tabletop? Yes, or at least currently (Ghosthelms...)
In the fluff? No. Farseers are always fighting Chaos. It's just that that fight is in the background on the tabletop. Much like IG don't roll for the common cold each round, the Farseer is constantly evading Chaos.
I would imagine that if the Farseer were only dealing with the LoC, he'd have a much better chance than if he's also worrying about Slanesh. Not sure that alone would be enough. The whole being-invisible-to-it thing might help too, but I'm not 100% that that hasn't changed.
It is the basis of the Grey Knights' fluff that their psychic presence and powers are anathema to Daemons.
It is the basis of the Craftworld's fluff that they are always fighting against Daemons. GK might worry only about daemons, but CWE also always worry about them.
To say that a GK are trained/equipped specifically against demons and Farseers aren't isn't accurate. I know GK are. It's not as commonly known that Farseers are also trained/equipped specifically against demons.
What psykers aren't fighting constantly against demons?
It's completely accurate. Farseers are trained in seeing the future and using that to help their allies and the odd thing like eldritch storm not anti-demon.
Bharring wrote: "While true, Grey Knights' psychic powers and auras are tailored to directly negate and dispell the forces of Chaos."
On the tabletop? Yes, or at least currently (Ghosthelms...)
In the fluff? No. Farseers are always fighting Chaos. It's just that that fight is in the background on the tabletop. Much like IG don't roll for the common cold each round, the Farseer is constantly evading Chaos.
I would imagine that if the Farseer were only dealing with the LoC, he'd have a much better chance than if he's also worrying about Slanesh. Not sure that alone would be enough. The whole being-invisible-to-it thing might help too, but I'm not 100% that that hasn't changed.
No, you're just wrong here, sorry.
Farseers do not dedicate nearly as much of their time fighting Chaos. They are primarily based around peering into the future to guide their race, whereas the sole function of a Grey Knight is to combat the powers of Chaos. Show me a single source stating that Farseers' psychic powers are honed to be particularly damaging to Chaos the way the Grey Knights are.
It very much depends on where the Farseer is from. A Farseer from Biel-Tan is likely more focused on reading the skein for advantages against Humans, Orks and other such beings, whereas a Farseer from Ulthwé, with their constantly battling Chaos at every turn, would naturally primarily focus on fighting Chaos.
That said, I'll throw Harlequin Shadowseers into the mix. They are dedicated Chaos hunters and extremely powerful - see Sylandri Veilwalker snapping Kairos Fateweaver's anti-primarch chains like wet tissue, or an unknown Shadowseer (but probably Veilwalker) happily taking Mephiston, possibly the most powerful Psyker in the Imperium, on a psychic road trip through Khorne's domain against his will in Devastation of Baal, or Vespasi-Hann taking on Ahriman and even coming out on top (thanks to capitalising on an unexpected outside interference, I''m compelled to add) in Atlas Infernal. They've got the power, they've got the training and experience, if anyone can do it regularly it's them IMO.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Your average Grey Knight Grand Master or Supreme Grand Master, maybe - but they'd be about the only things I reckon could do it. Eldar, good as they are, are not up to snuff for this one.
What? Farseers are certainly more capable psykers than Grey Knight Grand Masters.
While true, Grey Knights' psychic powers and auras are tailored to directly negate and dispell the forces of Chaos.
No Lord of Change is a rival to Magnus in all likelihood.
A Deamon called Shaytan beats the living snot out of Magnus with relative ease, it was early Magnus likely before he knew the full extent of his powers, but its still pretty shocking.
Deamons have the ability to be much much more powerful that primarchs and one more powerful than the Emperor, so its not much of a stretch to think a lord of change "could" become more powerful, its just not likely.
Who is Shaytan? I cannot find any information on this daemon on either 40k wiki, which is surprising. Can you give some context for this supposed beatdown as well as the publication?
Oh, this thread. Has anyone found any lore to support Eldar being the most powerful psykers? My boy Ahriman is taking it to them in the warp. I guess that is good enough .
A Deamon called Shaytan beats the living snot out of Magnus with relative ease, it was early Magnus likely before he knew the full extent of his powers, but its still pretty shocking.
Deamons have the ability to be much much more powerful that primarchs and one more powerful than the Emperor, so its not much of a stretch to think a lord of change "could" become more powerful, its just not likely.
Shaitan? You mean that "daemon" (which was actually the combined psychic essence of an entire planet's worth of psykers that were sacrificed during the entirety of Old Night) that Magnus proceeded to literally trap in his book so all the lives comprising it could live out their own stories inside it, finally getting a shot at the life they missed? That Shaitan? Idk, I think Magnus proved he was quite a bit more powerful.
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Ashiraya wrote: Who is Shaytan? I cannot find any information on this daemon on either 40k wiki, which is surprising. Can you give some context for this supposed beatdown as well as the publication?
It's not a daemon, and it is from the BL novel Primarchs series, Magnus the Red: Master of Prospero.
Magnus was originally being laid low by the entity when confronted with the horror of their backstory (which resonated strongly with him, given his very pro-psyker stance), but when he found his resolve, he sealed the entity in short order.
Robin5t wrote: It very much depends on where the Farseer is from. A Farseer from Biel-Tan is likely more focused on reading the skein for advantages against Humans, Orks and other such beings, whereas a Farseer from Ulthwé, with their constantly battling Chaos at every turn, would naturally primarily focus on fighting Chaos.
That said, I'll throw Harlequin Shadowseers into the mix. They are dedicated Chaos hunters and extremely powerful - see Sylandri Veilwalker snapping Kairos Fateweaver's anti-primarch chains like wet tissue, or an unknown Shadowseer (but probably Veilwalker) happily taking Mephiston, possibly the most powerful Psyker in the Imperium, on a psychic road trip through Khorne's domain against his will in Devastation of Baal, or Vespasi-Hann taking on Ahriman and even coming out on top (thanks to capitalising on an unexpected outside interference, I''m compelled to add) in Atlas Infernal. They've got the power, they've got the training and experience, if anyone can do it regularly it's them IMO.
IMHO Harlequins are incredibly hard to judge because in every book they show up in they are the definition of plot armour. Harlequins don't see the future like Farseers do, a Shadowseer see's the future as a cycle of recurring Eldar myths and nudges things so it occurs like they should. In this way I am 100% confident if a Shadowseer was had another role to play later on, then she'd manage to defeat or escape the Lord of change (In the latest Fabius Bile book a Shadowseer ((Veilwalker, it's always veilwalker) straight up vanished into thin air, in an area with no webway portals). However I also don't think that in a straight up psychic duel a Shadowseer holds as much psychic clout as a Farseer. In Masque the Vyle the Shadowseer in that book was unwilling to use her Witchsight in an area that might house a greater daemon lest it spot her and crush her.
)
with a demolition charge.
