So monolith will be doing a kickstarter for claustrophobia remake at the end of the year but the kicker will the be the game is already done and is on its way to shipping hubs by the time it starts.
Here's the full text of the announcement from Facebook.
MONOLITH·FRIDAY, JUNE 15, 2018
As you know, Monolith has always had the ambition to use Kickstarter not as a tool for protection against risk, but as a tool for better value distribution between players and publishers. As such, we have systematically used the platform to carry out projects that would not have been profitable in an intermediated circuit, due in particular to their huge investments in development and their material content (often excessive). Up until now our offers have always been extremely advantageous for our pledgers in return for the risk that they accept (long delivery times, delay risks, errors, defects…). With time and experience (lessons learnt from previous teething problems) we have considerably improved, especially via the use of specialists for each of the key positions of the edition (at the forefront of which are Game Design and Testing, but also production and logistics: basically all these positions that remain in the wings and do not feature central stage during a campaign, but which are essential to the successful completion of a game). Strengthened by this experience and the cash flow released by our previous projects (Conan, Mythic Battles, Batman...) we have decided to take an even bigger risk by assuming everything, while maintaining an unbeatable offer for our pledgers (a value saving of up to double that of a store-bought game from an intermediated network). To do this we are going to experiment with a new model that is the result of what we have been trying to achieve since the creation of the company.
Resin miniature, sculpted by Martin Lavat
How are we going to proceed?
It is very simple. At the moment we are using our cash flow to not only develop, but also to produce and deliver boxes of Claustrophobia 1643 to our hubs (5000 to our US hub and 5000 to our European hub), without any backer or distributer having previously ordered them (so without the guarantee of selling them as is usually the case in a classic circuit or on Kickstarter). Obviously we have met with the Kickstarter officials to make sure that this is not a problem for the platform. As such, our pledgers will neither have to advance cash nor wait a long time before being delivered, or even fear that there will be a difference between what is being shown during the campaign and what they will get once they are delivered… because all the games will already be waiting for their future owners in the warehouses of our local partners. Many of our supporters will be able to play and manipulate the final product even before the campaign and all will be delivered within the six weeks that follow. There will be no post-campaign pledge manager and we will just use a KS online survey to collect pledger details.
One of the tile by David Demaret
How are the savings made by the disintermediation going to be shared?
Here again it's very simple. Today, in the traditional market, more than 60% of the value of a game is retained by intermediation (distributors + stores). We simply propose to our pledgers to equitably distribute this value between them and us. By doing so, we will be able to consolidate our margins, control our prices and ensure that we can continue to invest heavily in the development of our projects. At the same time, without having to wait or take any risk, you will get, each time, a much better bargain than anything you would get in a store.
Resin miniature sculpted by Martin Lavat
Why change a model that works?
Several reasons:
Crowdfunding has evolved
It would be unrealistic (or perhaps denial) to not see that Kickstarter and crowdfunding in general have become markets in their own right where fierce competition prevails. Monolith has always had the ambition to be an innovator in these markets and especially not a follower (The micro campaign Conan: The Book of Set was a test. We simply underestimated the demand. With 10,000 copies of Claustrophobia 1643, each will have had time to decide). If we want to stay at the forefront of these markets, we must continue to innovate.
Let’s talk more about the game and less about money:
Over the past years, we have seen forum discussions gradually shifting away from the games themselves (their systems and universes) to their performance in terms of funding. We ourselves have participated in this movement and today we regret the relegation of fun and playability to the background. The game needs to be put back into the center of the conversations.
The stretch-goal system is only a marketing gimmick:
We know it all the better because we do it ourselves. Today stretch-goals are already included in the campaign financing plan and serve only as an adjustment variable. They are stretched or limited according to the sums collected, but they are never "gifts" offered to the backers. Whatever its outcome, you will have more or less the same value in stretch-goals at the end of the campaign. We might as well be done with these marketing gimmicks and instead present a straightforward offer, improved by the value of these stretch-goals, from the start.
Attracting new pledgers:
Everyone will have noticed that, campaign after campaign, the rate of new pledgers is dropping, to the extent of being ridiculously low today (often under 10%). This is due to the proportionally increasing number of "regulars", but also because the pool of new backers ready to pay more than a year in advance for a game with hypothetical qualities is drying up (while at the same time the number of new projects is exploding). If we want to return to higher rates (in other words bring new blood onto KS), we must attract a less "adventurous" population onto the platform, those who are ready to accept drastically reduced delivery dates and very little risk (of delay, non-compliance ...).
WAAAAAHOOOOO!
Monolith is remaking the best darn dungeon crawler out there and the thing is already done!!!
I can't believe how lucky we all are. In case you don't know, Claustrophobia is a fantastic dungeon crawler boardgame with really interesting and tough choices that oozes theme.
Lots of original people are involved as well, designers and sculptors.
Croc (INS / MV, Conan: Nordheim, Helldorado, TIME Stories: Expedition - Endurance, Helldorado, etc.) assisted by Laurent Pouchain (Okko, Congo, etc.) and the Monolith design team worked together to conceptualize this new version of Claustrophobia, and we hope that it will appeal to you as much as it does to us.
...
We will unveil the new sculptures by Martin Lavat, Gautier Giroud, Stephane Simon and Stéphane Nguyen soon
Monkeysloth wrote: They had an update after mythic battles 1.5. They said end of year but I guess September would be possible as they said it will be at gencon.
Lots of original people are involved as well, designers and sculptors.
Croc (INS / MV, Conan: Nordheim, Helldorado, TIME Stories: Expedition - Endurance, Helldorado, etc.) assisted by Laurent Pouchain (Okko, Congo, etc.) and the Monolith design team worked together to conceptualize this new version of Claustrophobia, and we hope that it will appeal to you as much as it does to us.
...
We will unveil the new sculptures by Martin Lavat, Gautier Giroud, Stephane Simon and Stéphane Nguyen soon
Wow, they really lined up a great cast if sculptors. Some of the Hell Dorado stuff is pretty hit or miss, but the Claustrophobia sculpts are all great.
Well for the time they were good. I've got Claustrophobia and the plastic quality doesn't hold up at all.
I'm really hoping the next Conan is the same, being fully produced and sold on KSer, as it was supposed to be early next year and it's my go to for RPG figures.
Monkeysloth wrote: Well for the time they were good. I've got Claustrophobia and the plastic quality doesn't hold up at all.
I'm really hoping the next Conan is the same, being fully produced and sold on KSer, as it was supposed to be early next year and it's my go to for RPG figures.
The prepainted plastic isn't great quality, but the sculpts are good imo (dynamism, proportions, pose, character, etc.)
Unfortunately this has been delayed until november :( Apparently the factory that is producing the game got so much new business they can't produce 10 000 copies as fast as Monolith wanted them to, and rather than lower the amount of available games they decided to postpone.
How did I miss this? Claustrophobia is an excellent game, and the Hell Dorado world is one of my favorite settings of any game out there. The price looks really reasonable too, considering I no longer have a dungeon crawler in my board game collection I will definitely be picking this up.
Here is the news from Monolith about the Kickstarter
Dear Followers,
Our manufacturer has just announced that unfortunately they are no longer able to produce all the boxes we were going to put on the market in October in a single print campaign, due to a large number of orders at the end of this year. No less than three "runs" are going to be necessary to produce and assemble our 10,000 packages, while satisfying the rest of their customers. However, the boxes of the last "run" are not going to be available in time to be delivered to our pledgers before Christmas 2018, meaning that only 60% of pledgers would have their game at the foot of their tree. We are aiming for a performance of 100% concerning Claustrophobia 1643 and this is not negotiable. We have therefore had to decide between only offering 6,000 boxes and pushing back the entire operation. We have made the painful choice to delay the KS campaign to Tuesday, November 6th to ensure full delivery in January, so as to minimize the time between the moment your account will be debited and the time when the game will actually be in your possession. This is the challenge of this test campaign; Christmas would have been a significant commercial bonus for us that, unfortunately, we will have to pass on for this launch.
Please note that it is OUR cash that is out today and under no circumstances is YOUR money being held hostage. We are the first to be penalized by this postponement, which delays the moment when we will recover our investment.
We are really very sorry that you will not have the game for Christmas, but we did feel it was more constructive to shift the entire operation rather than lure 40% of you with impossible promises and then potentially have to offer flowery excuses. That would go against everything Monolith has built back up since the fiasco of the delivery of Conan.
It is our intention to do our absolute best when it comes to delivering what we promise. This decision to delay the Claustrophobia 1643 campaign represents our cautious approach. Thanks for sticking with us!
Im not that impressed at all, its an abuse of what crowdfunding is all about, its nothing but a pre-order and of cause KS wont have a problem with it, as all they care about is their $$$ cut, What KS does is different to what KSTOS/U say is allowed, ie not having an already produced product to sell on KS, creators are not allowed to have more than 1 project going at 1 time, KS will not follow up on failling/failed campaigns etc etc.
Sorry for the rant but im getting fed up with these big companies using KS as a pre-ordering system, its hurting the "little guys" who are using KS for the crowdfunding idea the platform was set up for
Original Timmy wrote: Im not that impressed at all, its an abuse of what crowdfunding is all about, its nothing but a pre-order and of cause KS wont have a problem with it, as all they care about is their $$$ cut, What KS does is different to what KSTOS/U say is allowed, ie not having an already produced product to sell on KS, creators are not allowed to have more than 1 project going at 1 time, KS will not follow up on failling/failed campaigns etc etc.
Sorry for the rant but im getting fed up with these big companies using KS as a pre-ordering system, its hurting the "little guys" who are using KS for the crowdfunding idea the platform was set up for
I am in total agreement with you, but this has been an issue for years now.
To the point where when people say KS isn't a pre-order system I roll my eyes and laugh. Sure, maybe on paper and definitely in 2009 when it started, but in 2018? It is a fething pre-order system that no longer really caters to the entrepreneurs and creatives it was intended for.
Just like eBay used to be a site for people clearing out their attics and garages to make some extra cash, and now it is simply a collection of e-businesses.
I have literally backed one boardgame (Darkstar Corsairs) where the entire point of the KS campaign was to raise the money to pay for production and art, where the designer was literally a guy in a house, unaffiliated with any company. Even that had production problems in China.
Yeah, KS is mostly a preorder system nowadays. At the very least, each stretch goal is something they usually already plan to produce.
AegisGrimm wrote: I have literally backed one boardgame (Darkstar Corsairs) where the entire point of the KS campaign was to raise the money to pay for production and art, where the designer was literally a guy in a house, unaffiliated with any company. Even that had production problems in China.
Yeah, KS is mostly a preorder system nowadays. At the very least, each stretch goal is something they usually already plan to produce.
Which is sad, especially when people get so turned off of Kickstarter due to failed/extremely late projects that they only back campaigns from established Creators (I am guilty of this). Further distancing Kickstarter from its intended purpose and feeding into the pre-order nonsense.
I'm not sure it is such a bad thing. Effectively, there was the golden age of KS a few years back when anybody with a pretty dream, some concept art and enthusiasm could raise a ridiculous amount of money on KS. Then, a bunch of those projects never delivered, delivered late or crappy quality miniatures, a bunch of people got burned and the community collectively got wiser about who we give our money to.
Now backers expect a lot of the work to be done upfront so creators have some skin in the game and because we've figured out that things like good production samples are a good signal that creators can deliver what they promise.
There are still a ton of games that get the capital they need to launch from KS, even if they are mostly "done" in terms of design and sculpting. Look at Anno Domini 1666 for a great example of a game from a small hardworking studio that never would have gotten launched without KS.
There are still plenty of projects in KS that wouldn't be produced via the normal way.
For example all of the big boardgames that would be too expensive to sell in shops, but got done because of KS. I don't think Kingdom Death would be a thing without KS money (for one example). Or Cthulhu Wars. Or Mythic Battles: Pantheon. Or 7th continent.
The argument that KSers aren't for projects like this is ran it's course several years ago. Kickstarter the company is fine with it, the Tabletop community is fine with it -- hell we're even at a point that unless you're a really big player in the boardgame space you can't even sell a game unless it's on Kickstarter.
Backing the "little guy" is great and all (and I have my fair share of those I have backed) but those rarely get me what I want which is loads of cheap plastic to use in other games. Yep I could follow the makers of those games to any platform but, again, it's been decided by gamers that Kickstarter is that platform as all the attempts to move away from it haven't gone that well.
Gallahad wrote: I'm not sure it is such a bad thing. Effectively, there was the golden age of KS a few years back when anybody with a pretty dream, some concept art and enthusiasm could raise a ridiculous amount of money on KS. Then, a bunch of those projects never delivered, delivered late or crappy quality miniatures, a bunch of people got burned and the community collectively got wiser about who we give our money to.
Now backers expect a lot of the work to be done upfront so creators have some skin in the game and because we've figured out that things like good production samples are a good signal that creators can deliver what they promise.
Absolutely, the way things have shook out with Kickstarter is better for backers, but I'd argue if Kickstarter had better enforcement of "bad" projects that maybe this outcome of Kickstarter becoming a defacto pre-ordering system wouldn't have come about. There was probably a point (maybe around 2012-2014) when Kickstarter as a company could have addressed the issues plaguing their system, but they didn't, and now we have what Kickstarter has become. My only lament is that the barrier for entry into Kickstarter now, in 2018, is much higher than it was during the early days. That means that there are some projects that won't see the light of day because the upfront investment, which Kickstarter could have provided years ago, isn't available to have the polished sort of campaign needed to successfully fund. Yes, it cuts a lot of chaff out, but I can't help but think there are some lost opportunities being discarded as well.
I'm also in the boat that there is nothing wrong with what Monolith is using Kickstarter for. They have obtained Kickstarter's permission, and to be fair companies have essentially been doing this for years (*cough*coolmini*cough*) though those companies have already planned to include all the stretch goals but use them deceptively to obtain more money, and also use Kickstarter to avoid risk as they often haven't started production.
Monolith, if anything, is being more honest than most be being straight forward with us about what they are doing. They also already invested the money, and will have product ready to ship at the end of the Kickstarter.
And to say Kickstarter isn't being used as intended (to help small companies/ individuals launch their product) isn't really true. In the last year I have backed successful projects for Relicblade (which is a very small company - one man actually that got his game started through KS), and Red Box Games (again, it's just Tre). I think now we are just getting to the point where people aren't going to back just anything, and are skeptical of companies who are promising a lot with no track record (Looking at you Prodos, only took my 4 years to get all my stuff from AvP).
> And to say Kickstarter isn't being used as intended (to help small companies/ individuals launch their product) isn't really true.
Yeah. Wake me up when Walmart uses KS for an upgrade of its inventory supply chain software.
"For the little guys" was last year's (or the year before)'s Kool-Aid. On the About page, KS says, "Our mission is to help bring creative projects to life". Not small projects. Not one-man projects. Creative projects.
Monolith's project qualifies, although I suspect there's a middleware variant that allows online customers to check the number of copies left in stock.
For those who like numbers, KS takes a percentage of funding. Pretty obviously, this means that "creative projects" which rake in hundreds of thousands of dollars fill up the KS coffers more than, say, that guy who's making dungeon tiles out of insulation foam. By hand.
More insidiously, KS provides no advertising for a project. This automagically screens out creators who have less social media advertising experience, as well as less of a pre-existing customer base, than creators who already have experience selling stuff online. To some extent, this also screens out inexperienced creators, who have higher rates of project failure.
> if Kickstarter had better enforcement of "bad" projects
As for "bad" projects, this means you bring in the letter-writing lawyers, and potential argument of de facto protecting its customer base. KS has, imo, done its best to distance itself from projects to avoid any liability. And, IMO, if KS were to screen projects, it *would* be in their best interests to favor companies that have already created product, much less "pre-orders". This would make KS even less of a platform for helping "small" companies. (Actually, it would make it more like an OLGS...)
Personally, I'm for any sales method which cuts out a middleman who provides no value to the consumer. Unlike, say, Magic the Gathering and sometimes miniature wargaming, today's gamer no longer needs a hobby store retailer in the boardgame market. BGG has supplanted the employee's advice, Meetup, public locations, and home provide space for gaming. And, without the 40%+ discount that the retail-distributor model has (which does *not* guarantee they will carry a manufacturer's product), gamers can receive much more for their gaming dollar. You are *still* free to support retail sales, online game stores, and other sales channels besides KS.
Finally, as Steve Jackson said, if KS wasn't allowing these "big" crowdfunding projects, some other platform would. I doubt anyone is here because of KS. They're here because of the creators. And KS knows that.
Not a fan of the quote function or what? Your post was a mess to read.
ced1106 wrote: > And to say Kickstarter isn't being used as intended (to help small companies/ individuals launch their product) isn't really true.
Yeah. Wake me up when Walmart uses KS for an upgrade of its inventory supply chain software.
"For the little guys" was last year's (or the year before)'s Kool-Aid. On the About page, KS says, "Our mission is to help bring creative projects to life". Not small projects. Not one-man projects. Creative projects.
Nice Walmart strawman, but it kinda points out the issue with your argument in general. Of course Walmart wouldn't use Kickstarter to upgrade their infrastructure because they are a multi-billion dollar company and don't need to rely on crowd funding to make upgrades to their business. Walmart and their ilk were never Kickstarter's intended users. And while the KS terms of service may not specifically indicate that crowd funding is really meant to help start-ups and small companies get ideas off the ground, it is implied. Strongly.
Which doesn't mean that big, influential creators can't use the system. Look at actors like Zach Braff and Kristen Bell who crowdfunded movies - that is exactly what the service is for. Because those creatives didn't have the capital to make the movies happen in the first place. You know who isn't crowdfunding their next movie on Kickstarter? Disney. You know why? Because it would be ridiculous for a multi-billion dollar company to need to rely on crowdfunding to get their gak done.
Just like it is ridiculous that a company like CMON comes back to the KS well time and again, with fully developed products waiting for the print numbers.
When the rules/fluff/design development is done, when the artwork is made, the models sculpted and dozens of stretch goals pre-loaded into the system and ready to unlock--basically when everything for the game is "ready" for the productiion except for the number of units you need to produce -- then you have a fething pre-order on your hands. Full stop.
That is what many of the larger, successful KS campaigns have become. The crowd funding aspect is not needed other than to generate sales. It is the antithesis of what the platform was made for.
> if Kickstarter had better enforcement of "bad" projects
As for "bad" projects, this means you bring in the letter-writing lawyers, and potential argument of de facto protecting its customer base.
Why would Kickstarter protecting its customers (the backers) be a bad thing?
ced1106 wrote: And, IMO, if KS were to screen projects, it *would* be in their best interests to favor companies that have already created product, much less "pre-orders". This would make KS even less of a platform for helping "small" companies. (Actually, it would make it more like an OLGS....
And if they did that, Kickstarter and the companies using the system couldn't hide behind "this isn't a pre-order" as an excuse for failing to deliver goods or refunds. If Kickstarter admitted that it is a pre-order system it would allow backers more protections than they currently have because the transaction between backer and creator would be a regular retail transaction. The current system obfuscates that financial transaction as an investment, and robs the buyer of their rights.
ced1106 wrote: Finally, as Steve Jackson said, if KS wasn't allowing these "big" crowdfunding projects, some other platform would. I doubt anyone is here because of KS. They're here because of the creators. And KS knows that.
That quote pretty much kills any counter argument on why these project shouldn't be on KSer. They're on KSer because KSer wants them there because it brings them in money both from the project itself and all the eyes large projects bring into KSer that may never have used it before and will now back other things. No amount of whining about/to CMoN, Monolith will change that fact as this is how Kickstarter wants their platform to be used. In fact if I was one of the "little guys" i'd much prefer the larger ones on the platform then somewhere else as KSer might recommend my project to those backers or some backers might explore and find new stuff to back. I don't know why in the world I would want the big projects on a different site (even worse, their own site that I couldn't create a project on) just for that reason. I have never seen a well laid out reason why these large projects actually hurt the smaller ones (that money isn't going to go to them if Monolith isn't there) just always some psudo-outrage over "Won't someone think of the little guy" and "that's not how KSer is supposed to be used" when the company that created the platform wants it to be used that way.
Hmm. This and a couple other pieces of artwork suggest the may be going with a sort of "evil woods" theme which I'm not sure I'm as excited about as the old subterranean gateway to hell setting...
Original Timmy wrote: Im not that impressed at all, its an abuse of what crowdfunding is all about, its nothing but a pre-order and of cause KS wont have a problem with it, as all they care about is their $$$ cut, What KS does is different to what KSTOS/U say is allowed, ie not having an already produced product to sell on KS, creators are not allowed to have more than 1 project going at 1 time, KS will not follow up on failling/failed campaigns etc etc.
Sorry for the rant but im getting fed up with these big companies using KS as a pre-ordering system, its hurting the "little guys" who are using KS for the crowdfunding idea the platform was set up for
How does this hurt the little guys? I see people complain about this all the time, and I've never once seen a genuine convincing argument to support this. If, as a company, you have access to a Kickstarter style promotion, you're almost stupid to not use it. It's not "abuse" it's just good business.
Elbows wrote: If, as a company, you have access to a Kickstarter style promotion, you're almost stupid to not use it. It's not "abuse" it's just good business.
True it is good business, but the perceived abuse of the system comes from the fact that larger companies with more assets fundamentally change the way Kickstarters are viewed by backers. Larger companies can and have altered the perception of what is needed for a campaign to fund successfully. Think about a CMON campaign versus a non-CMON campaign run by a couple of people out of their garage. The CMON campaign has slick graphics, videos (often multiple with high production values going over game play, testimonials, etc.) renders of completed models and often physical test samples of components. Basically, they have a lot of the production done before ever going to the public for funding.
How can the creators working out of their garage compete with that level of glitz and presentation? How can their project get attention when companies who have sunk thousands upon thousands of dollars in pre-production suck the oxygen out of the room, so to speak?
> the perceived abuse of the system comes from the fact that larger companies with more assets fundamentally change the way Kickstarters are viewed by backers.
You might want to notify KS about this abuse of the system. I'm sure they will want to know and will take your comments seriously.
Elbows wrote: If, as a company, you have access to a Kickstarter style promotion, you're almost stupid to not use it. It's not "abuse" it's just good business.
True it is good business, but the perceived abuse of the system comes from the fact that larger companies with more assets fundamentally change the way Kickstarters are viewed by backers. Larger companies can and have altered the perception of what is needed for a campaign to fund successfully. Think about a CMON campaign versus a non-CMON campaign run by a couple of people out of their garage. The CMON campaign has slick graphics, videos (often multiple with high production values going over game play, testimonials, etc.) renders of completed models and often physical test samples of components. Basically, they have a lot of the production done before ever going to the public for funding.
How can the creators working out of their garage compete with that level of glitz and presentation? How can their project get attention when companies who have sunk thousands upon thousands of dollars in pre-production suck the oxygen out of the room, so to speak?
Sorry, I don't buy this as there are many "people in the garage" companies that started small with metals and resin, proved Themselves and worked up to CMoN styled campaigns. Steam Forged Games, Poots, Hint the game just to name a few. Even monolith was this was with Conan, like 4 people at first, they just happen to have a lot of experience in the industry.
These companies didn't start in a void, CMoN was in full stride when all of them but Poots did their first kickstsrter and managed to be big players for exactly the reasons you said the small guys can't do. They had good art, competent presentations, some completed sculpts and they worked themselves to the top by being hard working, with good products that people wanted.
There are even breakout games like Gloom haven and Scythe that first game tore up KS. They also had good art and presentations. There are so many examples that prove your argument wrong.
Elbows wrote: If, as a company, you have access to a Kickstarter style promotion, you're almost stupid to not use it. It's not "abuse" it's just good business.
True it is good business, but the perceived abuse of the system comes from the fact that larger companies with more assets fundamentally change the way Kickstarters are viewed by backers. Larger companies can and have altered the perception of what is needed for a campaign to fund successfully. Think about a CMON campaign versus a non-CMON campaign run by a couple of people out of their garage. The CMON campaign has slick graphics, videos (often multiple with high production values going over game play, testimonials, etc.) renders of completed models and often physical test samples of components. Basically, they have a lot of the production done before ever going to the public for funding.
How can the creators working out of their garage compete with that level of glitz and presentation? How can their project get attention when companies who have sunk thousands upon thousands of dollars in pre-production suck the oxygen out of the room, so to speak?
Sorry, I don't buy this as there are many "people in the garage" companies that started small with metals and resin, proved Themselves and worked up to CMoN styled campaigns. Steam Forged Games, Poots, Hint the game just to name a few. Even monolith was this was with Conan, like 4 people at first, they just happen to have a lot of experience in the industry.
These companies didn't start in a void, CMoN was in full stride when all of them but Poots did their first kickstsrter and managed to be big players for exactly the reasons you said the small guys can't do. They had good art, competent presentations, some completed sculpts and they worked themselves to the top by being hard working, with good products that people wanted.
There are even breakout games like Gloom haven and Scythe that first game tore up KS. They also had good art and presentations. There are so many examples that prove your argument wrong.
Are there? You've named 7 games or companies out of 9 years of Kickstarter campaigns. I think you are pointing out the exceptions that prove the rule.
Let's look at Scythe, because when that campaign started I was very impressed with the production values on it. So who was involved and what resources did they have available?
Jamey Stegmaier is the designer of Scythe, Viticulture, Tuscany, and Euphoria. He's also the co-founder and president of Stonemaier Games, and he's written a book about crowdfunding.
Jakub Rozalski is the artist, worldbuilder, and creative director of Scythe. Art prints of his work are available for purchase from him here.
Morten Monrad Pedersen is Stonemaier's development specialist. He designed the Automa solo variant for Scythe as detailed on his BGG blog.
Carsten Biernat & Jozsef Szollosi of Unique Voodoo Studio are the 3D modelers for Scythe's miniatures.
Christine Santana is the lead graphic designer for Stonemaier Games.
Chris Matthew is the Panda Game Manufacturing project manager for Scythe.
Scott Wadyko is the the sculptor of the realistic resource tokens found in the collector's edition and in our new treasure chests.
Video: The project video was created by Josh McDowell, narrated by A.T. Chandler, and features original Scythe music composed by Michał Woźniak. The gif explaining the board extension was designed by Bryce Walter and reduced in size for faster loading times by Bruce Alcorn.
Playtesters: The development process for Scythe featured over 750 blind playtests and 628 individual playtesters. We owe a huge debt of gratitude to all of them, especially to Barry Schmaling (who built the playtester forum) and all of the lead playtesters.
Oh, gak, look at that. All people already in the industry, or involved in industries that helped make that campaign pop. Yep, surely a plucky little garage start up there.
It's more win, win for everyone. The publisher doesn't need a warehouse to hold all their unsold stock.
We game a game at almost half the retail cost.
And if retailers are switched on, they will back some copy's and sell them on.
Beware that this is old and you WON'T get the KS for christmas
Elbows wrote: If, as a company, you have access to a Kickstarter style promotion, you're almost stupid to not use it. It's not "abuse" it's just good business.
True it is good business, but the perceived abuse of the system comes from the fact that larger companies with more assets fundamentally change the way Kickstarters are viewed by backers. Larger companies can and have altered the perception of what is needed for a campaign to fund successfully. Think about a CMON campaign versus a non-CMON campaign run by a couple of people out of their garage. The CMON campaign has slick graphics, videos (often multiple with high production values going over game play, testimonials, etc.) renders of completed models and often physical test samples of components. Basically, they have a lot of the production done before ever going to the public for funding.
How can the creators working out of their garage compete with that level of glitz and presentation? How can their project get attention when companies who have sunk thousands upon thousands of dollars in pre-production suck the oxygen out of the room, so to speak?
Sorry, I don't buy this as there are many "people in the garage" companies that started small with metals and resin, proved Themselves and worked up to CMoN styled campaigns. Steam Forged Games, Poots, Hint the game just to name a few. Even monolith was this was with Conan, like 4 people at first, they just happen to have a lot of experience in the industry.
These companies didn't start in a void, CMoN was in full stride when all of them but Poots did their first kickstsrter and managed to be big players for exactly the reasons you said the small guys can't do. They had good art, competent presentations, some completed sculpts and they worked themselves to the top by being hard working, with good products that people wanted.
There are even breakout games like Gloom haven and Scythe that first game tore up KS. They also had good art and presentations. There are so many examples that prove your argument wrong.
Are there? You've named 7 games or companies out of 9 years of Kickstarter campaigns. I think you are pointing out the exceptions that prove the rule.
Let's look at Scythe, because when that campaign started I was very impressed with the production values on it. So who was involved and what resources did they have available?
Jamey Stegmaier is the designer of Scythe, Viticulture, Tuscany, and Euphoria. He's also the co-founder and president of Stonemaier Games, and he's written a book about crowdfunding.
Jakub Rozalski is the artist, worldbuilder, and creative director of Scythe. Art prints of his work are available for purchase from him here.
Morten Monrad Pedersen is Stonemaier's development specialist. He designed the Automa solo variant for Scythe as detailed on his BGG blog.
Carsten Biernat & Jozsef Szollosi of Unique Voodoo Studio are the 3D modelers for Scythe's miniatures.
Christine Santana is the lead graphic designer for Stonemaier Games.
Chris Matthew is the Panda Game Manufacturing project manager for Scythe.
Scott Wadyko is the the sculptor of the realistic resource tokens found in the collector's edition and in our new treasure chests.
Video: The project video was created by Josh McDowell, narrated by A.T. Chandler, and features original Scythe music composed by Michał Woźniak. The gif explaining the board extension was designed by Bryce Walter and reduced in size for faster loading times by Bruce Alcorn.
Playtesters: The development process for Scythe featured over 750 blind playtests and 628 individual playtesters. We owe a huge debt of gratitude to all of them, especially to Barry Schmaling (who built the playtester forum) and all of the lead playtesters.
Oh, gak, look at that. All people already in the industry, or involved in industries that helped make that campaign pop. Yep, surely a plucky little garage start up there.
I work in the tech field, I know people that with years of experience went out and started their own company just with their savings, a few even in their garage, and have done quite well. Just because you have experience doesn't mean you're not a garage start up. I'm glad Kickstarter isn't the way you think it should be as it would mean anyone with any experience doing anything relating to what they want to crowd fund should be denied as it would be "unfair" to anyone else. Same with anyone that puts any effort into their presentation, hires artists, or is an artist themselves is unfair to those that can't. Sorry, but if you want to raise a couple hundred thousand you had better put some effort in including spending some money. No one is entitled to people backing their half-assed campaign.
Also as to me cherry picking. There are a lot of people that run successful kickstarters that allow them to quit their day job and run a business, I see posts on r/boardgames about this often enough, and I've seen many miniature games still going after 5+ years being on Kickstarter. You don't have to be huge million dollar campaigns to be successful, you don't even have to make a living off of what you're doing to be successful -- just depends on what you want out of the platform. But a lot will fail or not fund. It's just how life is. A well put together campaign can still fail horribly for any number of reasons. I chose the ones I did to call out that there are many companies jumping to the top of their industry in terms of scale very quickly via Kickstarter still, a few a year. In the US less then 5% of businesses make it past their first year and less make it to their second. Of those that survive how many climb to the top to be a big player? Not many. How long does it take them to do so especially with physical products and manufacturing times? Years and years. Kickstarter is still showing that people that put in hard work, earn a good reputation and take some financial risk by doing some prep work can move very quickly to be a larger player.
But none of this really matters to you does it? You just want to argue, or be mad, or to troll. Whatever your reason it's clear you're in the extreme minority and that you really don't have anything to back up your argument by showing all the KSers that have failed due to CMoN, Monolith, SFG, Kingdom Death, Reaper, Mythic and all the others also being on the platform.
The real point of Kickstarter is risk reduction. It always has been. Normally a company that preorders something is subject to the full weight of laws related to retailing products online. With Kickstarter you get your customers to waive those rights and agree to much looser terms. And that what can be delivered doesn't have to match what was originally described. As long as a company satisfies the five steps required in the KS terms, they can drastically change how things end up being delivered. They can even charge additional surprise shipping costs or totally change the material of the items. As long as they follow the steps outlined in the terms.
This idea that Kickstarter was ever about the little guy or the backers is silly. A crowd funding platform that didn't create the conditions to attract these larger obviously pre order projects wouldn't work for smaller projects either.
Original Timmy wrote: Im not that impressed at all, its an abuse of what crowdfunding is all about, its nothing but a pre-order and of cause KS wont have a problem with it, as all they care about is their $$$ cut, What KS does is different to what KSTOS/U say is allowed, ie not having an already produced product to sell on KS, creators are not allowed to have more than 1 project going at 1 time, KS will not follow up on failling/failed campaigns etc etc.
Sorry for the rant but im getting fed up with these big companies using KS as a pre-ordering system, its hurting the "little guys" who are using KS for the crowdfunding idea the platform was set up for
You know what hurt the "little guys"? Their overall ineptness as a group and the fact that so many of them do not deliver, or deliver multiple years late due to overpromising and underdelivering. The number of projects I've backed that have not delivered anything at all to me, have delivered garbage, or delivered only part or a fraction of what was promised has almost entirely dried up my willingness to support anyone new on the platform. Yes, the risk is (somehow) on me as a backer, but I've lost hundreds if not thousands of dollars across the years, and so at this point I'm only willing to back for a relatively small amount of money, outside of the places I've purchased from before, or (closest to) "sure thing" creators like Monolith.
See, the thing is that it's not a zero-sum game for everyone. At this point, money I'll spend with Monolith or CMON is money that I will never make available to a small producer who may or may not crash and burn. Monolith and CMON are in competition with, say, GW or Warlord for my $$$ - not other small KS creators that I haven't personally gotten stuff from before.
True it is good business, but the perceived abuse of the system comes from the fact that larger companies with more assets fundamentally change the way Kickstarters are viewed by backers. Larger companies can and have altered the perception of what is needed for a campaign to fund successfully. Think about a CMON campaign versus a non-CMON campaign run by a couple of people out of their garage. The CMON campaign has slick graphics, videos (often multiple with high production values going over game play, testimonials, etc.) renders of completed models and often physical test samples of components. Basically, they have a lot of the production done before ever going to the public for funding.
How can the creators working out of their garage compete with that level of glitz and presentation? How can their project get attention when companies who have sunk thousands upon thousands of dollars in pre-production suck the oxygen out of the room, so to speak?
It's not a zero-sum game. I don't have, say, $500 to spend ON KICKSTARTER this month. Your guys working out of their garage don't even get a look in. They don't get considered. I don't care about them or their product until it's been proven. Sorry. I'm not an angel investor nor a charity. If I'm going to donate money to a cause, there are plenty of worthwhile local charities that need my money more than some guy who may or may not know how to run a small business on the other side of the globe.
I backed the reprint of Gloomhaven.
Would I have backed the original campaign?
No. No I would not.
But I got the reprint.
So yes, if a creator proves themselves first then I'll consider them. And I'm 100% aware that it took other people to take that risk. Good for them, they make their money and they take their own chances. I'm personally done with doing that at this point in time.
After being lied to and ripped off (too) many times, I am strongly risk averse when it comes to KS.
MattW wrote: IMO, it’s the failure of small companies to deliver on their promises that fundamentally changed how consumers view Kickstarter projects.
This.
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Elbows wrote: EDIT: Sorry, don't want to clog this thread with discussions over the merits of Kickstarter. Let's concentrate on the game itself.
Not much to discuss at this stage. I'm concerned by their apparent choice to completely ignore ANZ/Oceana/Asia, though.
Gallahad wrote: Hmm. This and a couple other pieces of artwork suggest the may be going with a sort of "evil woods" theme which I'm not sure I'm as excited about as the old subterranean gateway to hell setting...
It does seem kinda odd. They might be from the Wood of the Suicides (from the Inferno), but those trees aren't supposed to be moving around at all.
In any case I'm glad to see any life in the Hell Dorado setting, so I'll be buying a copy.
Not much to discuss at this stage. I'm concerned by their apparent choice to completely ignore ANZ/Oceana/Asia, though.
That does seem a shame,
but since they're risking their own cash they may feel the approx. 1000 or less (5-700 to Australia which was the biggest supporter) or so sales they got from their previous projects was insufficient to justify the extra logistical spend?
The actual Australian deliveries previously seemed to go well enough, but the costs for getting stuff from there to NZ seemed to be sky high so may well have resulted in lots of people chasing refunds, and the shipping from china to the rest of Asia seems to have been as much of a mess as most KS projects that try to do it are (a shame as it should, in theory, be reletively simple even if it isn't fast
Dunno. We'll see what happens, I recall they allocated us something like 90 Books of Set for the Conan campaign which sold out pretty much instantly.
One thing I can say is that if they cut us out of this, I won't back anything of theirs again. Not that they'll give two gaks, apparently. It's not like they couldn't ship a couple of hundred out to Aetherworks.
Col Hammer wrote: There are still plenty of projects in KS that wouldn't be produced via the normal way.
For example all of the big boardgames that would be too expensive to sell in shops, but got done because of KS. I don't think Kingdom Death would be a thing without KS money (for one example). Or Cthulhu Wars. Or Mythic Battles: Pantheon. Or 7th continent.
(or Exploding Kittens... )
getting the original funding for KD probably wouldn't have happened if not for Kickstarter, but now Monolith aren't even doing it to offload the risk; if they can't sell through distribution channels, they could sell direct. All KS is doing is providing marketing. If this is already manufactured at the point the KS campaign starts and delivery is weeks rather than months, I'm tempted - I was a big fan of Hell Dorado.
Why would Kickstarter protecting its customers (the backers) be a bad thing?
Ah, you've misunderstood Kickstarter, it seems. Kickstarter's customers are not the backers. Kickstarter's customers are the people funding projects. The backers are the service they're paying Kickstarter to provide.
As for why KS don't want to get too involved, that exposes them to liability. If they police one campaign, then they can become liable to police all campaigns, or become open to lawsuits alleging they treated one campaign differently to another (from backers if one campaign fails with no intervention, or from a project designer if their campaign is interfered with for unsound reasons). KS want to limit themselves to putting campaign creators in contact with backers, nothing more.
My only issue with KS-only products is that it's the supplier forcing their schedule onto the consumer. I don't want to buy this game now, as I've got no money this month. I might want to buy it in February, but that's too late.
My Conan minis painted up really, really nicely. Detail is good and deep enough to work with easily. I had no problems working with the material: mouldlines were easily dealt with, and I washed, primed and painted as normal.
I'm excited for this to launch so we can finally see high res photos of the actual minis.
The original Claustrophobia is a great game and my favorite dungeon crawler.
I'm also curious to see if the whole "BOOM This is everything you get in two months!" thing works. Much of the excitement around Kickstarters comes from the pageantry and the dopamine trigger of stretch goal reveals.
Yep shipping, and the current exchange rate , along with potential Brexit hilarity if it runs late for UK backers are all potential issues.
Will still be amazed if this actually ships out by April, Kickstarters are usually bait and switch ....
I'd agree with earlier comments that the greatest damage to what the original point of KS was has been done by the small guys who failed to deliver.
I mean what it's become is like some kind of Mr Burns Simpsons wet dream. A preorder system with payment up front and no real obligation to provide anything! Do it right and anyone who comes after you legally finds you aren't even personally liable as the creator... some creators continually pour out changed/bad / misleading value/late items yet still suck enough in time after time.
intresting read. Here's the text to save people having to click a link.
The costs for 1 Claustrophobia box, based on 10k units production :
$5 for figurine molds
$2.5 for sculpture
$1.5 for illustrations
$20 for salaries (Monolith uses internal employees to work on the ks)
$26 for the print run (including $20 for the cardboard printing !)
$1 for transport by ship
$12 for VAT (it's an global average 15%)
$6 for royalties (8% of final price to the author)
$8 for ks (10%)
82$ production costs for a game that will be sold 79$.( it includes De Profundis content)
So it's not profitable... for the first print run. If the game is a success (the 10k boxes sold), they will be able to run a second kickstarter, and this time : the first 4 cost line disappear.
Mythic Battle : the second print run with $1,1M was way more profitable than the first one with $2,6M.
Print run
Once mold and scuplture are paid, figurines cost between $0.1 and $0.12 to produce. So with large print run, cardboard cost more than plastic. According to Frédéric, with only 25 tiles and twice more figurines, the game would be cheaper
Royalties
Interesting, Monolith wants to pay 2x the author compared to the other big ks compagnies(4% seems to be the norm), to attract the best authors in the long run.
Why Claustrophobia
Erwan, an other owner of Monolith is fan of Claustrophobia and they know very well the author Croc, the author. But Claustro was planned by FFG. Since they are all friends with Marc Nunès, co-founder of Asmodee, they used their influence to retrieve the game.
First edition of Claustrophobia : 10k sold in 6 months, and 20k in this entire life
Around half the 200 Oceania pledges are already gone. I’ve backed for one since it’s a pledge-first ask questions later situation. Looks like it will sell out within the day.
I backed but then realized it's just the core box and doesn't include the expansion that I believe opens up play for more then 2 players. It's a fun game but my group doesn't play 2 player only stuff. So I'm going to be dropping it.
You could play it solo but it will really just turn into who rolls the better dice as it's a pretty agressive game.
It's essentially a reprint / revision of Claustrophobia, which has been OOP and has a following on BGG. Plenty of other boardgames out there to suit your (and my) taste.
Mysterio wrote: I was initially excited for this - but now, after seeing it in 'reality'?
Not so much.
In now, but probably dropping out.
I was in the same boat. I love the original and was very excited for this, but I just don't understand the art direction for this one. It just doesn't look like hell.
Interesting. Monolith just stated in the KSer comments that another company has the Conan license which is why they haven't done a Conan follow up but also says they might in a year which is different then what they were saying over the summer. Was saving up for round 2 of that.
No as Mythic wasn't around until after Conan as several including Leo were Monolith employees then. There's another Conan game that was announced not to long ago that was another stab at a skirmish game I believe (not the failed CROM game). Probably that one.
How Monolith let this slip is beyond me. Might also be that they still have the licenses for the boardgame but had to reschedule as to not conflict with that other KSer as Monolith seams pretty certain they'll be making more Conan.
Matthew, you know my sword arm is doing all it can to ensure Conan comes back. It's a special game for Monolith, so I think outlook is good
Edit: Think it's the latter as the same Monolith employee has stated on their forums the Shinobi7 license doesn't prevent them from making the boardgame, as it's for other types of games, and as of Oct 22 was talking about what they're looking at for updated rules to Conan in the next KSer.
For all we know, Paradox Entertainment, who claims rights to the works of REH, may have separate licenses for a boardgame vs. a miniatures game. Remember that Pulpasaurous, which included Shane Hensley of Savage World's Pinnacle Entertainment Group, was on KS last year and ran a Conan miniatures game, although its funding was unsuccessful.
Here's a BGG thread about REH works in public domain. Essentially, works before 1964 are public domain. Whether or not it means you can make a Conan game without paying Paradox a licensing fee is up to, I guess, the courts. I figure that any company can *claim* such-and-such rights, but it's not until the courts make a decision whether or not that claim is justified. Until that point, it's no more than "he said, she said" and "better to pay Paradox a fee now, than to pay court fees later".
Well, credit to Monolith for allocating some stock, small as it was to Asia and Oceania. Luckily for me I happened to check my email at 7am before I went to work this morning and managed to get one of the 200 copies.
Monkeysloth wrote: 82$ production costs for a game that will be sold 79$.
So it's not profitable... for the first print run. If the game is a success (the 10k boxes sold), they will be able to run a second kickstarter, and this time : the first 4 cost line disappear.
Mythic Battle : the second print run with $1,1M was way more profitable than the first one with $2,6M.
That's about right - breakeven on the initial run, and then make some real money on the second!
Kingdom Death : Monster lost money on the initial run, probably -10% or so, but the second run was vastly larger and significantly more profitable due to larger scale and development costs already paid for. ___
$22 uk shipping, nope....essentially turns it into an £85-£80 game which, for what you get, is in line with boxgames of this type. If that's the KS price then a retail release would be dead in the water. Or on Amazon months after release at under£50 in an attempt to get anything back, like Conan.
Also, as to shipping costs, the box is 6.5kg which is heavier then Conan or Mythic Battles core boxes according to Monolith. That's about 15 pounds. Cardboard isn't just expensive to print.
ced1106 wrote: For all we know, Paradox Entertainment, who claims rights to the works of REH, may have separate licenses for a boardgame vs. a miniatures game. Remember that Pulpasaurous, which included Shane Hensley of Savage World's Pinnacle Entertainment Group, was on KS last year and ran a Conan miniatures game, although its funding was unsuccessful.
Here's a BGG thread about REH works in public domain. Essentially, works before 1964 are public domain. Whether or not it means you can make a Conan game without paying Paradox a licensing fee is up to, I guess, the courts. I figure that any company can *claim* such-and-such rights, but it's not until the courts make a decision whether or not that claim is justified. Until that point, it's no more than "he said, she said" and "better to pay Paradox a fee now, than to pay court fees later".
Also, of course, if a KS project may be subject to an IP dispute, don't back it!
The licensee is actually Cabinet Entertainment (formally known as Paradox). According to a Modiphius employee they set when the various license holders can run a KSer and release product so it's most likely Cabinet forced Monolith to push back their KSer as Shinobi was farther along with their skirmish game.
Ya it's similar to Solomon Kane. The cost is all in the Non-miniature parts and there's much less minis then their previous KSers. You'd actually have to buy it for the game which I know is hard for some of us.
Monkeysloth wrote: Ya it's similar to Solomon Kane. The cost is all in the Non-miniature parts and there's much less minis then their previous KSers. You'd actually have to buy it for the game which I know is hard for some of us.
Why pay money for a game I'll never play when I could pay money for a bucket of miniatures I'll never paint or use???
If you don't have the game, you really should consider this one. It is a great asymmetrical dungeon crawler.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Wait, regular plastic? No stretch goals? for $100 shipped?
Yeah, I'm out.
Stretch goals are meaningless entertainment anyway. In this kickstarter they are already included in the box right from the start.
A grand total of 35 PVC minis for $100 is a pretty poor value per mini on KS, as can be seen from the cost breakdown - all of the production went into the cardboard. Without SGs to bump the value it's just not worth $100. For what little they're offering, this would have to be under $50 shipped.
With a true value of only $50, and a 2nd printing in the wings, I wouldn't even expect that I could get my money if the gameplay didn't deliver for me and my group.
____
Gallahad wrote: If you don't have the game, you really should consider this one. It is a great asymmetrical dungeon crawler.
Hold on, ALL dungeon crawlers are asymmetrical, including Zombicide and Mice & Mystics. What makes this one "great"?
If you still don't like it, definitely don't buy it. I don't see it as a dungeoncrawler, which is typically "one vs. many" or a coop. I see it as an asymmetrical two-player game. I have the base game and want more miniatures to not paint (: as well, so will skip out this one. Gonna buy me an Amazon HD Kindle Fire thing instead!
Ya, it's not a dungeon crawler. It's more like one player is hunting the other and actually trying to prevent you from beating a scenario unlike games like Decent and Conan which are more RPG boargames that is easier for one side to win then the other.
You do have tiles that are randomly drawn but that's really the only crawler aspect as it's more of a skirmish game where one player has a fixed unit size and the other can summon in more and more, but very week, units who's board layout is random and need to be explored.
That's pretty much it. It's more like Song of Gold and Darkness, Frostgrave, or Space Hulk than HeroQuest or (gasp) Dungeons and Dragons. (:
Before Descent, it was clearer. The dungoenmaster was not an adversary or opponent. He was an administrator or benevolent dictator. The players usually played one character each.
Descent brought in the concept that the Overlord was an active opponent. The game mechanics changed to make the game fair with Conquest tokens that the Overlord spent as a resource and made decisions. He actually had choices, unlike, say, HeroQuest who told the dungeonmaster where to put which miniature.
fwiw, Zombicide quietly removed the convention of "one player, one character", since its scenarios are designed for six characters.
If you haven't played Dungeons and Dragons, yeah, the line between dungeoncrawler and skirmish game may not be clear.
Oh, I'm pretty clear on the conceptual distinction between "dungeon crawler" and "skirmish game". Coming from someone who played 1E D&D, it seems to me that you provide a very unsatisfying and inaccurate description of a "dungeon crawler".
A dungeon crawler is:
* smallish party of high-detail heroes
* massed enemies, culminating in a boss fight
* randomized/arbitrary dungeon
Descent is irrelevant, as even back in 1E, a "Killer DM" could be a ruthless adversary limited only by the rules that generate an encounter.
Back in 1E, players could certainly play multiple characters, especially henchmen.
The number of players and the degree to which the DM opposes the players, and/or is automated, is not what defines a dungeon crawler.
At its core, Zombicide is definitely a dungeon crawler. Same with Space Hulk and the D&D games.
A "skirmish game", that's generally terminology for a small wargame where each figure represents 1 thing, for a 1:1 figure:thing ratio (unlike strategy games where a figure or block might represent 100s or 1000s).
Frostgrave is a skirmish game, like Infinity, Malifaux and Warhammer 40,000.
For me a dungeon crawler is:
* smallish party of high-detail heroes
* massed enemies, culminating in a boss fight
* randomized/arbitrary dungeon
* "heroes" replenish supplies or become more powerful via found items or leveling.
* Not 1v1 (at least by design) or allow for more the one hero.
So psudo RPGs. If it doesn't have those last two it's a wargame.
> Oh, I'm pretty clear on the conceptual distinction between "dungeon crawler" and "skirmish game". Coming from someone who played 1E D&D, it seems to me that you provide a very unsatisfying and inaccurate description of a "dungeon crawler".
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: You can certainly crawl other locations, even outside, but a dungeon crawl (for me) needs an underground dungeon
I think that is a needlessly restrictive description to the game type.
Then we would have to use way too many other terms to describe game types like "Space ship crawl", "Cavern crawl", "Mansion crawl", "Secret laboratory crawl" and so on, and so forth, and what have you...
To me, the term Dungeon crawl just implies exploration of unknown territory (either randomly generated rooms or at least randomly generated contents of the rooms). Where the game takes place is not that important to the term. It can be a dungeon or it can be something entirely different.
EDIT: This game has that exploration aspect, so I would term it as Dungeon crawl. GW's Blackstone fortress also has the exploration aspect, so I would call it also a Dungeon crawl (even when the dungeon is in fact a space station).
Many of you are curious about the specific changes we’ve made with this new version of Claustrophobia. How does this 1643 version differ? Let’s take a deep dive into the dark and shed a little light, shall we?
“Hell yes!” you say? Your pun did not go unnoticed. Great job! Now, let’s go!
Evolution of the Game System
Croc and Laurent Pouchain started working on the changes to the game system in the spring of 2017. From the start, we weren’t trying to compromise or sabotage what worked well with Claustrophobia. Rather, we wanted to adjust or correct any issues we spotted, with hindsight, over the past 10 years. The reflection focused on the following points: • Would it be possible to add a little more control in Claustrophobia? if so, would it make the game better? •What could be improved, polished or removed?
If you have already played Claustrophobia, you know the importance of control and that it is possible to build a medium or long term strategy in the game. If you are new to the game, you will also notice that chance (dice, tiles, cards), in part, affects the outcome of the game. Adding a little more control helps guide players in a direction that may not seem natural at first. Building a strategy for several turns, and being able to adapt to random draws, offers then more control.
Offering more control has another advantage. We found with the previous version, sometimes, being the human player got a bit…bleak. There were times when it seemed hopeless and that giving up was the best option. Of course, Claustrophobia is a survival game in which the human player starts at the height of their power. But this power declines throughout the game and the human player will have to manage this decline in order to secure victory. There is nothing more frustrating than seeing a game of Claustrophobia abandoned before the end because the human player gives up after losing half of their team. This is especially tragic because this is the time when the game often generates the most fun and tension.
On the infernal player side, the test games showed a tendency to repeat the same action sequences and the same patterns of playing and attacks. We wondered, how can we encourage them to better use the tools at their disposal to vary their game sequences? Croc and Laurent explored many ideas. They came to realize that the heart/core of the game works very well and that it is difficult to maintain this balance between simplicity and effectiveness. The changes they made were therefore minimal in order to keep what works.
The Game of the Human Player
Simplification of the Benefits Card Effects
Some cards, which were objects or effects, were too complicated and slowed down the game or generated misunderstandings. Upon reflection, these cards have been simplified to remove ambiguity and to focus on the features’ boosts or the uses of talents and gifts. The idea is that the player spends less time understanding what the cards are for and more time actually using them.
A New Use For Advantage Cards
These cards now allow you to change the value of an activation die. In a difficult situation, this allows the human player to make sure that a fighter is activated.
Instinct Card
In fact, we’ve done away with the title and advantage cards have become instinct cards. The human player can draw them during the game by assigning certain values to the condemned warriors. They must decide how best to use of these fighters. In the short term, the human player will want to exploit assets such as speed, strength or defense. But they will also want to think ahead and build a stack of cards allowing them to better adapt to future events and situations.
Each fighter can only benefit from a single instinct card per turn. The human player must choose whether to use the card for its effect or to change the value of an activation die. This provides additional control and options, and the player is encouraged to strategize by planning ahead for future turns.
The Infernal Player's Game
Originally, the board of destiny offered 10 actions to the infernal player. They were, more or less, complex and useful depending on the circumstances. But we discovered some were used much more than others.
The idea was, therefore, to simplify these options so that players would spend time thinking about how best to plan out their actions rather than understanding how they work in the current situation on the gaming table. Though they spent a lot of time deciding, eventually, players ended up just doing the same thing too often.
Turn-based Programming: "The calm before the storm"
The 1st action allows you to use a die during one turn to throw an extra die on the following turn. We are with a turn alternation with 2 dice then 4 dice for the infernal player, which goes in the direction of a repetition of the game patterns. This action has been replaced with the possibility of holding back a die on an action one for a next turn to build a medium-term strategy.
Dice of Destiny & Board of Destiny
The remaining actions on the board are divided into 2 categories: those that use combinations of odd or even dice, and those that require sums to reach from 7 to 12+. The dice have been modified as follows: • The notion of even/odd has been replaced by a simpler color to be understood at a glance. •The maximum value of the dice was reduced from 6 to 3
Actions considered "less useful" have been removed from the board of destiny. We ended up with a board with only 6 actions and dice optimized for the programming of the board. The goal was to make it easier for the infernal player to focus on their strategy.
Specialized Demons
Each demon now has an action like the ones on the board of destiny. This allows you to specialize the board according to the demons used.
New Possibilities
Going from 10 to 6 actions on the board of destiny might, at least initially, suggest a decrease in game possibilities. In practice, though, the mechanics behind "The calm before the storm" are directly integrated into the game system and the removed actions are replaced by actions on the demons trays. Instead of "generic" actions that were not used in some of the scenarios, we end up with specific actions created by the game designers, which are easier to trigger and to use.
The result? The infernal player’s board of destiny now has the equivalent of 8 or 9 actions (depending on the number of demons in the scenario) which are easier to implement and more effective.
Greetings Faithful Backers,
As you know, we announced well in advance of the campaign just how many copies of the game would be available at each hub. We wanted to allow people time to prepare for launch so they would be able to secure their copy. However, it seems that we underestimated demand for our hubs in Asia and Oceania.
Now, we were very hesitant to reallocate supplies destined from one hub to another, but after so many reached out to us and some reflection within the team, we have decided to remove 300 units from our North American hub and add 200 to Oceania and 100 hundred to Asia. We did not want to go back on the numbers we promised to each hub, but since there seems to be more than an adequate supply at our North American hub, and so many who still want this game who are relying on our hubs in Asia and Oceania, we think this is the right thing to do. Our North American backers have had a few days to jump in, so we don’t feel that removing 300 hundred units at this point is unfair to them.
The fact is, we definitely over-estimated demand in North America, so we feel it’s best to open these up to those clamoring for them. Claustrophobia, you see, is a popular/famous board game in Europe. It would seem it is a little less so in North America, which perhaps explains the different rate of sales between North American and Europe. Again, this is new approach for us and a unique campaign. Thanks for coming along with us and all your positive encouragement.
We hope this helps those who want to secure a game to do so. Thanks for all your feedback. The new supplies should be showing up in the pledges in approximately two hours. We can’t give you the precise time, but two hours’ from this update is our aim.
so the remaining stock of 1900 for the USA, 560 for Europe, 0 for Autralasia and 0 for Asia will become
1600 for the USA, 560 for Europe, 200 for Australasia and 100 for Asia
so if you've been thinking of backing check the numbers and don't miss your slot (unless you're in the USA then you look as if you'll be able to back up to the last day)
Well my prediction for when they'd sell out is a bust. Actually at this rate they're going to have a few hundred copies left over.
Campaign has very sexy graphic design, but not very sexy models. Also what happened to that "expansive" feeling to designing a game and advertising. I get that it's "Claustrophobia" but their video is a little room tile with a just a few models on it, being played in a black void. I remember HeroQuest had a cover with everybody fighting and the commercial was a bunch of kids playing game in a room that looked like it was in a dungeon too. It was like aspirational-level fun they were selling.
Also a shame it was a little delayed, having this arrive in December would be like a nice little Christmas present for yourself. As far as that goes, I wonder if they're getting much credit from potential buyers for having that short turnaround, which really is the justification for pricing it more like a standard direct-release board game. Maybe we've become a bit accustomed to the wait to mind as much, or maybe the short turnaround is still too long, having to wait two months for a game is still a lot longer than two days on Amazon for comparable value.
Monkeysloth wrote: Not selling as quickly in the US so it's smart to move that product elsewhere.
Indeed. Thing is, in the US, we'rv become somewhat spoilt for choice for overproduced games, where 30-odd plastic minis isn't that compelling for $100 shipped when you have CMoN tossing nearly twice as much plastic at the backer for the same money. Granted CMoN's cardboard isn't as pretty, but you need more minis for the American dollars! Plus CMoN builds much better marketing hype, where this sort of straight presale doesn't have any of that "excitement".
And then there's timing. Within Kickstarter, they're going head to head with CMoN's Project: Elite (crossing Sedition Wars 2 / Zombicide: Invader). On top of that, you've got people like me anticipating a Kingdom Death Black Friday sale. And then there's general X-mas spend.
Failing to launch 3 months ago for guaranteed Xmas delivery was a huge failure.
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As far as visuals go, this is the all time gold standard:
Nothing like having a 4'x6' dining room table for gaming!
As I'm not seeing the info anywhere, does anyone know how many scenarios this version comes with?
I have the original (plus the Furor Sanguinus expansion) and part of the reason the original is popular is that tons of online scenarios were published beyond the rather bland original six.
There was a question whether it would sell out with >>10,000 unit demand. If so, it'd be a "hot" item and flippable for profit if you didn't like it.
However, with 2,000 units available (and growing!), it's better to wait for reviews and pick up a half-price copy on clearance. Let some other sucker pay the premium and take the risk on the first printing.
JohnHwangDD wrote: There was a question whether it would sell out with >>10,000 unit demand. If so, it'd be a "hot" item and flippable for profit if you didn't like it.
However, with 2,000 units available (and growing!), it's better to wait for reviews and pick up a half-price copy on clearance. Let some other sucker pay the premium and take the risk on the first printing.
I agree with your first sentence. Second one really has no basis though. Say whatever negative things you want about KS, but almost all of these KS *exclusive* games or expansions sell for far in excess of the KS cost on the secondary market.
That's also odd as the game's been out for a long time, there's very little changed in regard to rules and the original can be found pretty cheap still so it's not a mystery how the game will play.
It could just be the natural churn of backers leaving without new people replacing them as the offering isn't improving in value
odds are a bunch will not even have read the bit that it's all done & paid for and almost ready to ship and will just be treating it as a.n.other kickstarter
JohnHwangDD wrote: There was a question whether it would sell out with >>10,000 unit demand. If so, it'd be a "hot" item and flippable for profit if you didn't like it.
However, with 2,000 units available (and growing!), it's better to wait for reviews and pick up a half-price copy on clearance. Let some other sucker pay the premium and take the risk on the first printing.
I agree with your first sentence. Second one really has no basis though. Say whatever negative things you want about KS, but almost all of these KS *exclusive* games or expansions sell for far in excess of the KS cost on the secondary market.
Not so. I own
* Sedition Wars, which cratered almost immediately.
* a smattering of Relic Knights, which I was lucky to part out and unload immediately after the first play.
* World of Smog: Rise of Moloch, which I cannot sell for what I paid
So don't say nonsense like that when it isn't true.
JohnHwangDD wrote: There was a question whether it would sell out with >>10,000 unit demand. If so, it'd be a "hot" item and flippable for profit if you didn't like it.
However, with 2,000 units available (and growing!), it's better to wait for reviews and pick up a half-price copy on clearance. Let some other sucker pay the premium and take the risk on the first printing.
I agree with your first sentence. Second one really has no basis though. Say whatever negative things you want about KS, but almost all of these KS *exclusive* games or expansions sell for far in excess of the KS cost on the secondary market.
Not so. I own
* Sedition Wars, which cratered almost immediately.
* a smattering of Relic Knights, which I was lucky to part out and unload immediately after the first play.
* World of Smog: Rise of Moloch, which I cannot sell for what I paid
So don't say nonsense like that when it isn't true.
JohnHwangDD wrote: There was a question whether it would sell out with >>10,000 unit demand. If so, it'd be a "hot" item and flippable for profit if you didn't like it.
However, with 2,000 units available (and growing!), it's better to wait for reviews and pick up a half-price copy on clearance. Let some other sucker pay the premium and take the risk on the first printing.
I agree with your first sentence. Second one really has no basis though. Say whatever negative things you want about KS, but almost all of these KS *exclusive* games or expansions sell for far in excess of the KS cost on the secondary market.
Not so. I own * Sedition Wars, which cratered almost immediately. * a smattering of Relic Knights, which I was lucky to part out and unload immediately after the first play. * World of Smog: Rise of Moloch, which I cannot sell for what I paid
So don't say nonsense like that when it isn't true.
Theres tons of other examples to the contrary.
Perhaps, but you said "almost all", and that is NOT true.
This game will almost certainly NOT be something that flips up. It'll be a half price clearance item, at best. Huge stock far in excess of demand, and a poor value proposition in terms of minis / $$$. And that is why it's shedding backers like crazy:
I think the no SG stuff would work if they actually did something like Batman or Mythic Battles with a ton of stuff for your $120 instead of a game for $80 that looked like any normal retail box.
Monkeysloth wrote: I think the no SG stuff would work if they actually did something like Batman or Mythic Battles with a ton of stuff for your $120 instead of a game for $80 that looked like any normal retail box.
Yeah, I don't quite get the 35 models for 80 bucks level value. That just sounds like a normal game not on Kickstarter. It starts a screaming argument every time it's mentioned, but we've seen multiple companies forget the necessity of value in these campaigns, and they all seem to have been a step backward for them. I think value is actually a really big deal for a large majority of KS customers.
(although I agree if you're only interested in the minis this isn't for you)
The thing is you can buy really great tabletop games for 20 to 40 dollars retail. I think that's an awkward fit for consumers, they charge you $50 more because it has miniatures, but its not REALLY all about the minis. It's an established game with fans who know they want it, but otherwise it's an awkward fit.
Seeing the price breakdown that Monolith gave they're loosing money at $80 partly because of all the cardboard and partly because they want to pay their designers more then is standard (not a bad thing).
I'm really thinking they should have gone all in with the game doing the expansions as well for $120 and just doubling all the minis just for the sake of value (as it costs them very little to add extras in their own words). Or not done a game that they're emotionally attached too and want to keep true to it's original version that doesn't match what people expect on a KSer.
If you're not taking a game to retail why make it a retail style box with none of the extras you see in a standard KSer?
What do you mean “the game itself should’ve been better”? I’ve seen nothing but praise for the original. This isn’t aimed at miniature hoarders, believe it or not people pledge tons of money for games with nothing but cardboard and wood all the time... but as a two-player only game it’s pretty niche.
So this has now ended, 7712 pledges claimed of 10,000
so it looks like for a well advertised project like this a 'no stretch goal 'buy it now'' product needs an even shorter duration than 10 days
but on the other hand it has done pretty well as almost 8000 backers for a 'reprint' even a revised of a 2 player only game that didn't offer great value for those who just want to grab the minis and dump the game, one is still fairly strong performance
Welp campaign is over with around 2300 not sold. Wonder what will be inferred by this from Monolith's PoV as I'm sure they're assessment would be different then ours.
Literally the only reason I did not get one of these updated sets is that I need to finish out my collections of a couple of other games that are starting to be hard to find expansions for.
The value is there for the price they are asking. Just becuase it doesn't come with 100 miniatures doesn't mean the value isnt there. I fell for that once with Sedition Wars, not gonna happen again. Good mechanics in a fun game is just as valuable as a truckload of plastic that's likely never gonna get cleaned up and painted.
I enjoyed the original and had backed this tentatively, but Blackstone and the lure of Kingdom Death black friday goodies is much stronger unfortunately.
Also with Reich Busters this week, as well as Relic Blades and probably a whole slew of other things, plus the usual BF sales... something had to give.
In Claustrophobia's defense, it wasn't the only pledge I had to drop (and feel a twang of remorse as I know it'll be hard to get later on if my fancy changes).
I've seen a fair amount of where did you get that?, I missed the KS etc on facebook so there does seem to be the demand for it (although I guess we'll see if people actually back)
I'm sure people will back it. Just knowing how the first campaign went and this one being advertised as the last 2,500 just highlights how this has now turned out the way Monolith wanted.
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