I'd like to bring back the 2nd edition distinction between Imperial and Chaos plasma weapons: Imperial plasma weapons didn't overheat, but needed to recharge between shots; Chaos plasma weapons were an older, less stable design that became the model for how all plasma weapons worked between 3rd and 7th editions. It helped to make Chaos marines feel like they'd stepped out of the Imperium's distant past, and also like they had even less regard for life than the Imperium, that they'd happily use insanely dangerous weaponry as long as it gave them an edge over their foes.
GW/FW have actually already brought back a lot of the other things that made RT and 2nd edition so cool and weird. Electro-priests, genestealer cults, termites, web and grav weapons...
Oh, they could bring back ork madboyz. That'd be neat.
Duskweaver wrote: I'd like to bring back the 2nd edition distinction between Imperial and Chaos plasma weapons: Imperial plasma weapons didn't overheat, but needed to recharge between shots; Chaos plasma weapons were an older, less stable design that became the model for how all plasma weapons worked between 3rd and 7th editions. It helped to make Chaos marines feel like they'd stepped out of the Imperium's distant past, and also like they had even less regard for life than the Imperium, that they'd happily use insanely dangerous weaponry as long as it gave them an edge over their foes.
GW/FW have actually already brought back a lot of the other things that made RT and 2nd edition so cool and weird. Electro-priests, genestealer cults, termites, web and grav weapons...
Oh, they could bring back ork madboyz. That'd be neat.
I'd agree with that, but I'd also like plasma guns to be realistic, Blowing yourself up on a 1 out of 6 is so fantastically stupid from a realism and game-wise point of view. No army would give you weapons that dangerous. 1/6 in a whole battle is realistic but I can't be that realistic for the game, two 1's on a 2D6 is more realistic and not completely stupid, it is after all a lore-rule. I know they've brought back other thins lol we all know. Totally agree with madboyz as well but we should have fething warboars as well and WE's should have berzerkers on juggernaughts, I couldn't think of two better units that GW could relaese that could have popularity/rules that would make them sell like hotcakes. I mean SW's can have TWC, which even as a SW fan I find a bit ridiculous lol and Orks own all the real-estate when it comes to ridiculousness and they don't have hairy riding things...
Duskweaver wrote: I'd like to bring back the 2nd edition distinction between Imperial and Chaos plasma weapons: Imperial plasma weapons didn't overheat, but needed to recharge between shots; Chaos plasma weapons were an older, less stable design that became the model for how all plasma weapons worked between 3rd and 7th editions. It helped to make Chaos marines feel like they'd stepped out of the Imperium's distant past, and also like they had even less regard for life than the Imperium, that they'd happily use insanely dangerous weaponry as long as it gave them an edge over their foes.
GW/FW have actually already brought back a lot of the other things that made RT and 2nd edition so cool and weird. Electro-priests, genestealer cults, termites, web and grav weapons...
Oh, they could bring back ork madboyz. That'd be neat.
I'd agree with that, but I'd also like plasma guns to be realistic, Blowing yourself up on a 1 out of 6 is so fantastically stupid from a realism and game-wise point of view. No army would give you weapons that dangerous. 1/6 in a whole battle is realistic but I can't be that realistic for the game, two 1's on a 2D6 is more realistic and not completely stupid, it is after all a lore-rule. I know they've brought back other thins lol we all know. Totally agree with madboyz as well but we should have fething warboars as well and WE's should have berzerkers on juggernaughts, I couldn't think of two better units that GW could relaese that could have popularity/rules that would make them sell like hotcakes. I mean SW's can have TWC, which even as a SW fan I find a bit ridiculous lol and Orks own all the real-estate when it comes to ridiculousness and they don't have hairy riding things...
Except it's not a 1in 6 chance given they gave everybody reroll 1's its a 1in 36 chance. But Plasma need a rewrite anyway.
Duskweaver wrote: I'd like to bring back the 2nd edition distinction between Imperial and Chaos plasma weapons: Imperial plasma weapons didn't overheat, but needed to recharge between shots; Chaos plasma weapons were an older, less stable design that became the model for how all plasma weapons worked between 3rd and 7th editions. It helped to make Chaos marines feel like they'd stepped out of the Imperium's distant past, and also like they had even less regard for life than the Imperium, that they'd happily use insanely dangerous weaponry as long as it gave them an edge over their foes.
GW/FW have actually already brought back a lot of the other things that made RT and 2nd edition so cool and weird. Electro-priests, genestealer cults, termites, web and grav weapons...
Oh, they could bring back ork madboyz. That'd be neat.
I'd agree with that, but I'd also like plasma guns to be realistic, Blowing yourself up on a 1 out of 6 is so fantastically stupid from a realism and game-wise point of view. No army would give you weapons that dangerous. 1/6 in a whole battle is realistic but I can't be that realistic for the game, two 1's on a 2D6 is more realistic and not completely stupid, it is after all a lore-rule. I know they've brought back other thins lol we all know. Totally agree with madboyz as well but we should have fething warboars as well and WE's should have berzerkers on juggernaughts, I couldn't think of two better units that GW could relaese that could have popularity/rules that would make them sell like hotcakes. I mean SW's can have TWC, which even as a SW fan I find a bit ridiculous lol and Orks own all the real-estate when it comes to ridiculousness and they don't have hairy riding things...
Except it's not a 1in 6 chance given they gave everybody reroll 1's its a 1in 36 chance. But Plasma need a rewrite anyway.
Duskweaver wrote: I'd like to bring back the 2nd edition distinction between Imperial and Chaos plasma weapons: Imperial plasma weapons didn't overheat, but needed to recharge between shots; Chaos plasma weapons were an older, less stable design that became the model for how all plasma weapons worked between 3rd and 7th editions. It helped to make Chaos marines feel like they'd stepped out of the Imperium's distant past, and also like they had even less regard for life than the Imperium, that they'd happily use insanely dangerous weaponry as long as it gave them an edge over their foes.
GW/FW have actually already brought back a lot of the other things that made RT and 2nd edition so cool and weird. Electro-priests, genestealer cults, termites, web and grav weapons...
Oh, they could bring back ork madboyz. That'd be neat.
I'd agree with that, but I'd also like plasma guns to be realistic, Blowing yourself up on a 1 out of 6 is so fantastically stupid from a realism and game-wise point of view. No army would give you weapons that dangerous. 1/6 in a whole battle is realistic but I can't be that realistic for the game, two 1's on a 2D6 is more realistic and not completely stupid, it is after all a lore-rule. I know they've brought back other thins lol we all know. Totally agree with madboyz as well but we should have fething warboars as well and WE's should have berzerkers on juggernaughts, I couldn't think of two better units that GW could relaese that could have popularity/rules that would make them sell like hotcakes. I mean SW's can have TWC, which even as a SW fan I find a bit ridiculous lol and Orks own all the real-estate when it comes to ridiculousness and they don't have hairy riding things...
Except it's not a 1in 6 chance given they gave everybody reroll 1's its a 1in 36 chance. But Plasma need a rewrite anyway.
What do you mean everybody rerolls 1's?
He means nobody overcharges unless they've no option or unless they've got a source of Re-rolls babysitting the overcharging unit.
Duskweaver wrote: I'd like to bring back the 2nd edition distinction between Imperial and Chaos plasma weapons: Imperial plasma weapons didn't overheat, but needed to recharge between shots; Chaos plasma weapons were an older, less stable design that became the model for how all plasma weapons worked between 3rd and 7th editions. It helped to make Chaos marines feel like they'd stepped out of the Imperium's distant past, and also like they had even less regard for life than the Imperium, that they'd happily use insanely dangerous weaponry as long as it gave them an edge over their foes.
GW/FW have actually already brought back a lot of the other things that made RT and 2nd edition so cool and weird. Electro-priests, genestealer cults, termites, web and grav weapons...
Oh, they could bring back ork madboyz. That'd be neat.
I'd agree with that, but I'd also like plasma guns to be realistic, Blowing yourself up on a 1 out of 6 is so fantastically stupid from a realism and game-wise point of view. No army would give you weapons that dangerous. 1/6 in a whole battle is realistic but I can't be that realistic for the game, two 1's on a 2D6 is more realistic and not completely stupid, it is after all a lore-rule. I know they've brought back other thins lol we all know. Totally agree with madboyz as well but we should have fething warboars as well and WE's should have berzerkers on juggernaughts, I couldn't think of two better units that GW could relaese that could have popularity/rules that would make them sell like hotcakes. I mean SW's can have TWC, which even as a SW fan I find a bit ridiculous lol and Orks own all the real-estate when it comes to ridiculousness and they don't have hairy riding things...
Except it's not a 1in 6 chance given they gave everybody reroll 1's its a 1in 36 chance. But Plasma need a rewrite anyway.
What do you mean everybody rerolls 1's?
He means nobody overcharges unless they've no option or unless they've got a source of Re-rolls babysitting the overcharging unit.
Ah, well he's wrong on that point then as you aren't necessarily playing CP's.
Duskweaver wrote: I'd like to bring back the 2nd edition distinction between Imperial and Chaos plasma weapons: Imperial plasma weapons didn't overheat, but needed to recharge between shots; Chaos plasma weapons were an older, less stable design that became the model for how all plasma weapons worked between 3rd and 7th editions. It helped to make Chaos marines feel like they'd stepped out of the Imperium's distant past, and also like they had even less regard for life than the Imperium, that they'd happily use insanely dangerous weaponry as long as it gave them an edge over their foes.
GW/FW have actually already brought back a lot of the other things that made RT and 2nd edition so cool and weird. Electro-priests, genestealer cults, termites, web and grav weapons...
Oh, they could bring back ork madboyz. That'd be neat.
I'd agree with that, but I'd also like plasma guns to be realistic, Blowing yourself up on a 1 out of 6 is so fantastically stupid from a realism and game-wise point of view. No army would give you weapons that dangerous. 1/6 in a whole battle is realistic but I can't be that realistic for the game, two 1's on a 2D6 is more realistic and not completely stupid, it is after all a lore-rule. I know they've brought back other thins lol we all know. Totally agree with madboyz as well but we should have fething warboars as well and WE's should have berzerkers on juggernaughts, I couldn't think of two better units that GW could relaese that could have popularity/rules that would make them sell like hotcakes. I mean SW's can have TWC, which even as a SW fan I find a bit ridiculous lol and Orks own all the real-estate when it comes to ridiculousness and they don't have hairy riding things...
Except it's not a 1in 6 chance given they gave everybody reroll 1's its a 1in 36 chance. But Plasma need a rewrite anyway.
What do you mean everybody rerolls 1's?
He means nobody overcharges unless they've no option or unless they've got a source of Re-rolls babysitting the overcharging unit.
Ah, well he's wrong on that point then as you aren't necessarily playing CP's.
Marines loyalist and heritic reroll auro, guard orders who else is using overcharged imperial plasma?
Sisters don't as its not holy
Tau dont have overcharge plasma, and markerlights for rerolls
Knights have Warlord Trait
Deamons don't have plasma
Nids dont have plasma
Admech I'll admit I'm not familiar with
GSC?
Duskweaver wrote: I'd like to bring back the 2nd edition distinction between Imperial and Chaos plasma weapons: Imperial plasma weapons didn't overheat, but needed to recharge between shots; Chaos plasma weapons were an older, less stable design that became the model for how all plasma weapons worked between 3rd and 7th editions. It helped to make Chaos marines feel like they'd stepped out of the Imperium's distant past, and also like they had even less regard for life than the Imperium, that they'd happily use insanely dangerous weaponry as long as it gave them an edge over their foes.
GW/FW have actually already brought back a lot of the other things that made RT and 2nd edition so cool and weird. Electro-priests, genestealer cults, termites, web and grav weapons...
Oh, they could bring back ork madboyz. That'd be neat.
I'd agree with that, but I'd also like plasma guns to be realistic, Blowing yourself up on a 1 out of 6 is so fantastically stupid from a realism and game-wise point of view. No army would give you weapons that dangerous. 1/6 in a whole battle is realistic but I can't be that realistic for the game, two 1's on a 2D6 is more realistic and not completely stupid, it is after all a lore-rule. I know they've brought back other thins lol we all know. Totally agree with madboyz as well but we should have fething warboars as well and WE's should have berzerkers on juggernaughts, I couldn't think of two better units that GW could relaese that could have popularity/rules that would make them sell like hotcakes. I mean SW's can have TWC, which even as a SW fan I find a bit ridiculous lol and Orks own all the real-estate when it comes to ridiculousness and they don't have hairy riding things...
Except it's not a 1in 6 chance given they gave everybody reroll 1's its a 1in 36 chance. But Plasma need a rewrite anyway.
What do you mean everybody rerolls 1's?
He means nobody overcharges unless they've no option or unless they've got a source of Re-rolls babysitting the overcharging unit.
Ah, well he's wrong on that point then as you aren't necessarily playing CP's.
Marines loyalist and heritic reroll auro, guard orders who else is using overcharged imperial plasma?
Sisters don't as its not holy
Tau dont have overcharge plasma, and markerlights for rerolls
Knights have Warlord Trait
Deamons don't have plasma
Nids dont have plasma
Admech I'll admit I'm not familiar with
GSC?
What are you on about, are you saying every unit has a fre e option to have a character give them an aura. Just because you CAN, give them rerolls, doesn't mean they GET rerolls...
Duskweaver wrote: I'd like to bring back the 2nd edition distinction between Imperial and Chaos plasma weapons: Imperial plasma weapons didn't overheat, but needed to recharge between shots; Chaos plasma weapons were an older, less stable design that became the model for how all plasma weapons worked between 3rd and 7th editions. It helped to make Chaos marines feel like they'd stepped out of the Imperium's distant past, and also like they had even less regard for life than the Imperium, that they'd happily use insanely dangerous weaponry as long as it gave them an edge over their foes.
GW/FW have actually already brought back a lot of the other things that made RT and 2nd edition so cool and weird. Electro-priests, genestealer cults, termites, web and grav weapons...
Oh, they could bring back ork madboyz. That'd be neat.
I'd agree with that, but I'd also like plasma guns to be realistic, Blowing yourself up on a 1 out of 6 is so fantastically stupid from a realism and game-wise point of view. No army would give you weapons that dangerous. 1/6 in a whole battle is realistic but I can't be that realistic for the game, two 1's on a 2D6 is more realistic and not completely stupid, it is after all a lore-rule. I know they've brought back other thins lol we all know. Totally agree with madboyz as well but we should have fething warboars as well and WE's should have berzerkers on juggernaughts, I couldn't think of two better units that GW could relaese that could have popularity/rules that would make them sell like hotcakes. I mean SW's can have TWC, which even as a SW fan I find a bit ridiculous lol and Orks own all the real-estate when it comes to ridiculousness and they don't have hairy riding things...
Except it's not a 1in 6 chance given they gave everybody reroll 1's its a 1in 36 chance. But Plasma need a rewrite anyway.
What do you mean everybody rerolls 1's?
He means nobody overcharges unless they've no option or unless they've got a source of Re-rolls babysitting the overcharging unit.
Ah, well he's wrong on that point then as you aren't necessarily playing CP's.
Marines loyalist and heritic reroll auro, guard orders who else is using overcharged imperial plasma?
Sisters don't as its not holy
Tau dont have overcharge plasma, and markerlights for rerolls
Knights have Warlord Trait
Deamons don't have plasma
Nids dont have plasma
Admech I'll admit I'm not familiar with
GSC?
What are you on about, are you saying every unit has a free option to have a character give them an aura. Just because you CAN, give them rerolls, doesn't mean they GET rerolls...
I never ment to imply they where free, more anyone doing plasma spam has a way around the overheat mechanic. I've only ever sceen it effect hellblasters against -1 to hit who then shot again due to an ancient. Overheat as a mechanic doesn't reign in plasma at all.
Ah, well he's wrong on that point then as you aren't necessarily playing CP's.
Nobody wastes CP rerolls for plasma. 1 isn't enough. You use one of the bazillion options GW hands out like candies to have ALL plasma shots reroll. You roll 20 shots and somehow roll 20 1's. well no biggie. You just reroll them all.
Rybrook wrote: Templates, scatter/ sustained fire dice and virus grenades
You forgot the best wargear card in the game:
Gyro-stabilized monowheel. Opponents would tremble in fear whenver they laid eyes on this model. No wonder why it was kicked out of the Ork codex and quickly forgotten. Only old runtherdz would remember this wonder piece of orkish engineering and tell tales in a hushed whisper of it´s otherworldly accomplishments while huddled around a campfire in the middle of a cold night.
What are you on about, are you saying every unit has a fre e option to have a character give them an aura. Just because you CAN, give them rerolls, doesn't mean they GET rerolls...
It pretty much does. The only armies that have extensive access to overheating plasma also have easy access to re-roll auras. It's trivially easy to have those re-rolls cover most of your army, especially when the characters providing them are often very cheap. I can't remember the last time an opponent of mine didn't overcharge a plasma weapon, except in situations where there was a -1 to hit penalty. In every one of those situations they could re-roll 1s.
Duskweaver wrote: I'd like to bring back the 2nd edition distinction between Imperial and Chaos plasma weapons: Imperial plasma weapons didn't overheat, but needed to recharge between shots; Chaos plasma weapons were an older, less stable design that became the model for how all plasma weapons worked between 3rd and 7th editions. It helped to make Chaos marines feel like they'd stepped out of the Imperium's distant past, and also like they had even less regard for life than the Imperium, that they'd happily use insanely dangerous weaponry as long as it gave them an edge over their foes.
GW/FW have actually already brought back a lot of the other things that made RT and 2nd edition so cool and weird. Electro-priests, genestealer cults, termites, web and grav weapons...
Oh, they could bring back ork madboyz. That'd be neat.
I'd agree with that, but I'd also like plasma guns to be realistic, Blowing yourself up on a 1 out of 6 is so fantastically stupid from a realism and game-wise point of view. No army would give you weapons that dangerous. 1/6 in a whole battle is realistic but I can't be that realistic for the game, two 1's on a 2D6 is more realistic and not completely stupid, it is after all a lore-rule. I know they've brought back other thins lol we all know. Totally agree with madboyz as well but we should have fething warboars as well and WE's should have berzerkers on juggernaughts, I couldn't think of two better units that GW could relaese that could have popularity/rules that would make them sell like hotcakes. I mean SW's can have TWC, which even as a SW fan I find a bit ridiculous lol and Orks own all the real-estate when it comes to ridiculousness and they don't have hairy riding things...
Except it's not a 1in 6 chance given they gave everybody reroll 1's its a 1in 36 chance. But Plasma need a rewrite anyway.
What do you mean everybody rerolls 1's?
He means nobody overcharges unless they've no option or unless they've got a source of Re-rolls babysitting the overcharging unit.
Ah, well he's wrong on that point then as you aren't necessarily playing CP's.
Marines loyalist and heritic reroll auro, guard orders who else is using overcharged imperial plasma?
Sisters don't as its not holy
Tau dont have overcharge plasma, and markerlights for rerolls
Knights have Warlord Trait
Deamons don't have plasma
Nids dont have plasma
Admech I'll admit I'm not familiar with
GSC?
What are you on about, are you saying every unit has a free option to have a character give them an aura. Just because you CAN, give them rerolls, doesn't mean they GET rerolls...
I never ment to imply they where free, more anyone doing plasma spam has a way around the overheat mechanic. I've only ever sceen it effect hellblasters against -1 to hit who then shot again due to an ancient. Overheat as a mechanic doesn't reign in plasma at all.
Yeah but you saying they were free is the only logic to your statement. So what if there are way round things. I can re-roll a save, does that automatically mean there is no point in having a better save, because by your logic that is exactly what you are saying. I wish this unit had a 2+ save: you - you don't need that, you can get a re-roll if you use a character to buff that unit.
What are you on about, are you saying every unit has a fre e option to have a character give them an aura. Just because you CAN, give them rerolls, doesn't mean they GET rerolls...
It pretty much does. The only armies that have extensive access to overheating plasma also have easy access to re-roll auras. It's trivially easy to have those re-rolls cover most of your army, especially when the characters providing them are often very cheap. I can't remember the last time an opponent of mine didn't overcharge a plasma weapon, except in situations where there was a -1 to hit penalty. In every one of those situations they could re-roll 1s.
It pretty much does not. what if you need those characters for something else. Anything can have a buff from a character, saying that dynamic or rule doesn't matter because you can buff it with a character, is just asinine. Where are people getting these never ending supply of free characters...
Can we please not let a potentially really interesting thread get sidetracked into a dumb argument over the ubiquity of rerolls on plasma weapons? Please?
Anyway, even though they were my first 40K army, I haven't actually played Orks since 2nd edition. The more I think about it, the more I think GW should bring back all the zany Ork stuff from the Waaagh the Orks! era. Madboyz with multiple random behaviour tables (9 basic manias, with 6-10 specific behaviours for each mania, a few of which had further subcharts...), a billiontyzillion types of squig (including the tiny swarmy ones you sealed into pots and flung from catapults), cyboars, stormboyz dressed like WW2 Germans, Blood Axe nobz dressed like Imperial Commissars, Paul Bonner and Kev Walker artwork... Looking back, it was glorious.
Although people would likely gak themselves, I'd much rather BS modifiers were used in place of armour bonuses for cover, etc. However, this is more difficult since they went away from the old BS chart which actually had a purpose when it was originally matched with to-hit modifiers in 2nd edition. That's a discussion for another time though.
Do not bring back sustained fire dice outside of anything like Necromunda. While an interesting concept, losing your heavy bolter or stormbolter for two of your four turns because you rolled a jam was really stupid. I loved it for Ork stuff and for crappy sump-weapons from Necromunda though.
Multimeltas are crap right now and should be Heavy D3 (even though I hate Heavy D3 as a weapon type). Magically losing their blast didn't make sense to me. Particularly since they're quite expensive.
Put Terminators back in Rhinos...hell put a dreadnought back in a Rhino.
Give Eldar Shuriken weaponry back its range. Reduce Guardian BS and WS back to 4+ as it always was. No need to make them on par with Aspect Warriors.
Take Orks away from the random close-combat monsters they were pushed into, and back into a normal fighting force which was just a bit stupid and dangerous, but could moments of genius. We don't need Ork boyz with 4-5 attacks in close combat. We need silly rockets that zip around the table and kill random thing.
Reduce Tyranid shooting and make them more dangerous in close combat.
Bring back a wargear option for cerftain characters - just a small list of 6-8 wargear upgrades which allow you to add flavour to your models. Can be exclusively limited to certain characters at the top of the food chain for your army (Captains, and such). Basically think relics, but not limited to one per army, and they'd have a points cost. I miss the days of randomly putting a bionic arm on a Space Marine to give him a Strength bonus, etc. Or the fantastic mono-wheel you could put on your Orks...it's a friggin' UNICYCLE ORK. Who doesn't want that!?
Lots of the characterful stuff has been sacrified in the current GW business model, and that's sad. The move forward with "no model, no rules" is really killing the cool factor of the latest GW releases. It saddens me. I don't think we'll see the full impact this has for a while, but it's a massive misstep in my opinion.
Elbows wrote: Although people would likely gak themselves, I'd much rather BS modifiers were used in place of armour bonuses for cover, etc. However, this is more difficult since they went away from the old BS chart which actually had a purpose when it was originally matched with to-hit modifiers in 2nd edition. That's a discussion for another time though.
Do not bring back sustained fire dice outside of anything like Necromunda. While an interesting concept, losing your heavy bolter or stormbolter for two of your four turns because you rolled a jam was really stupid. I loved it for Ork stuff and for crappy sump-weapons from Necromunda though.
Multimeltas are crap right now and should be Heavy D3 (even though I hate Heavy D3 as a weapon type). Magically losing their blast didn't make sense to me. Particularly since they're quite expensive.
Put Terminators back in Rhinos...hell put a dreadnought back in a Rhino.
Give Eldar Shuriken weaponry back its range. Reduce Guardian BS and WS back to 4+ as it always was. No need to make them on par with Aspect Warriors.
Take Orks away from the random close-combat monsters they were pushed into, and back into a normal fighting force which was just a bit stupid and dangerous, but could moments of genius. We don't need Ork boyz with 4-5 attacks in close combat. We need silly rockets that zip around the table and kill random thing.
Reduce Tyranid shooting and make them more dangerous in close combat.
Bring back a wargear option for cerftain characters - just a small list of 6-8 wargear upgrades which allow you to add flavour to your models. Can be exclusively limited to certain characters at the top of the food chain for your army (Captains, and such). Basically think relics, but not limited to one per army, and they'd have a points cost. I miss the days of randomly putting a bionic arm on a Space Marine to give him a Strength bonus, etc. Or the fantastic mono-wheel you could put on your Orks...it's a friggin' UNICYCLE ORK. Who doesn't want that!?
Lots of the characterful stuff has been sacrified in the current GW business model, and that's sad. The move forward with "no model, no rules" is really killing the cool factor of the latest GW releases. It saddens me. I don't think we'll see the full impact this has for a while, but it's a massive misstep in my opinion.
A lot of this makes sense but I'd love to see the random shots thing done away with completely. Just make every D3 weapon a flat 2. Every d6 a flat 4. Every 2d6 a flat 7. There's a ridiculous amount of pointless dice rolling in this game. Just as much dice rolling as in 2nd but, and here's the difference, for no reason except to make things awkward.
Proper terrain rules are badly needed. So much would be solved with proper abstract terrain rules.
It pretty much does not. what if you need those characters for something else. Anything can have a buff from a character, saying that dynamic or rule doesn't matter because you can buff it with a character, is just asinine. Where are people getting these never ending supply of free characters...
Yet for some reason I never see plasma being fired without at least reroll 1 buff for them...
You can keep saying "no it does not" but Real World shows if weapon has nasty effect for user if they roll 1 you can bet your house it's being accompanied by reroll. Especially as GW doesn't even make it rare or expensive to have one.
The multimelta firing as a heavy flamer was only for dreadnoughts. It would be great if dreadnoughts could do this. At least give the multimelta a small blast/d3 (it used to be a 2" template). Also give dreadnoughts there other bonuses, like salvo firing missile launchers (D3 shots perhaps).
Elbows wrote: Although people would likely gak themselves, I'd much rather BS modifiers were used in place of armour bonuses for cover, etc. However, this is more difficult since they went away from the old BS chart which actually had a purpose when it was originally matched with to-hit modifiers in 2nd edition. That's a discussion for another time though.
Do not bring back sustained fire dice outside of anything like Necromunda. While an interesting concept, losing your heavy bolter or stormbolter for two of your four turns because you rolled a jam was really stupid. I loved it for Ork stuff and for crappy sump-weapons from Necromunda though.
Multimeltas are crap right now and should be Heavy D3 (even though I hate Heavy D3 as a weapon type). Magically losing their blast didn't make sense to me. Particularly since they're quite expensive.
Put Terminators back in Rhinos...hell put a dreadnought back in a Rhino.
Give Eldar Shuriken weaponry back its range. Reduce Guardian BS and WS back to 4+ as it always was. No need to make them on par with Aspect Warriors.
Take Orks away from the random close-combat monsters they were pushed into, and back into a normal fighting force which was just a bit stupid and dangerous, but could moments of genius. We don't need Ork boyz with 4-5 attacks in close combat. We need silly rockets that zip around the table and kill random thing.
Reduce Tyranid shooting and make them more dangerous in close combat.
Bring back a wargear option for cerftain characters - just a small list of 6-8 wargear upgrades which allow you to add flavour to your models. Can be exclusively limited to certain characters at the top of the food chain for your army (Captains, and such). Basically think relics, but not limited to one per army, and they'd have a points cost. I miss the days of randomly putting a bionic arm on a Space Marine to give him a Strength bonus, etc. Or the fantastic mono-wheel you could put on your Orks...it's a friggin' UNICYCLE ORK. Who doesn't want that!?
Lots of the characterful stuff has been sacrified in the current GW business model, and that's sad. The move forward with "no model, no rules" is really killing the cool factor of the latest GW releases. It saddens me. I don't think we'll see the full impact this has for a while, but it's a massive misstep in my opinion.
It is always nice to read that also other people remember the glory days of 40K. Sadly the 40K noobs of today will never experience true orky wackiness. Being funny today as an Ork means designating your Grot as your Leader in Kill-Team and hiding him the whole game.
The step to turn Orkz into green Tyranids was really poor in combination with their reduced BS stat. In a game with only to hit mali, Ork shooting becomes meaningless. A good game design should therefore include both boni & mali.
For all of you who would try to play 2nd:
Google Battle Bible and have the time of your life.
It pretty much does not. what if you need those characters for something else. Anything can have a buff from a character, saying that dynamic or rule doesn't matter because you can buff it with a character, is just asinine. Where are people getting these never ending supply of free characters...
Yet for some reason I never see plasma being fired without at least reroll 1 buff for them...
You can keep saying "no it does not" but Real World shows if weapon has nasty effect for user if they roll 1 you can bet your house it's being accompanied by reroll. Especially as GW doesn't even make it rare or expensive to have one.
It pretty much does not. what if you need those characters for something else. Anything can have a buff from a character, saying that dynamic or rule doesn't matter because you can buff it with a character, is just asinine. Where are people getting these never ending supply of free characters...
Yet for some reason I never see plasma being fired without at least reroll 1 buff for them...
You can keep saying "no it does not" but Real World shows if weapon has nasty effect for user if they roll 1 you can bet your house it's being accompanied by reroll. Especially as GW doesn't even make it rare or expensive to have one.
Mate just give up, you're talking nonsense.
When was the last time you played a game and someone overcharged plasma consistently without a way to reroll 1s?
It pretty much does not. what if you need those characters for something else. Anything can have a buff from a character, saying that dynamic or rule doesn't matter because you can buff it with a character, is just asinine. Where are people getting these never ending supply of free characters...
Yet for some reason I never see plasma being fired without at least reroll 1 buff for them...
You can keep saying "no it does not" but Real World shows if weapon has nasty effect for user if they roll 1 you can bet your house it's being accompanied by reroll. Especially as GW doesn't even make it rare or expensive to have one.
Mate just give up, you're talking nonsense.
When was the last time you played a game and someone overcharged plasma consistently without a way to reroll 1s?
When either me or that person is using a character to buff another squad. I'd rather buff my TWC or Wulfen sometimes than a squad of Plamsa guns. Not everyone builds their lists around a squad of plamsa, I mean seriously...
Old warscythes. They used to be one of if not the most terrifying melee weapons in the game. These days they are a decent weapon on a mediocre platform.
There was this apoc blast psychic power for eldar in 7th........ god that was fun. made it feel like I was running the best Psychers in the universe or something.....
Tygre wrote: The multimelta firing as a heavy flamer was only for dreadnoughts. It would be great if dreadnoughts could do this. At least give the multimelta a small blast/d3 (it used to be a 2" template). Also give dreadnoughts there other bonuses, like salvo firing missile launchers (D3 shots perhaps).
In 2nd edition, dreadnoughts also got to re-roll a single sustained fire die per shot - handy for the assault cannon rolling 3 dice - and the missile launcher did get multiple shots, as it was a huge pod rather than the single tube of the man-portable version.
I miss genestealer cult limos (why ride in a beat-up pickup when you can have a low-ridin', chromed bling-mobile?) and 300-year-old shrivelled squat Living Ancestors (who were waist-high t a Space Marine, if that) being hellish close combat masters by dint of being a 4th-level psyker.. I miss the Daemonic Attack psychic power card, Tyranid Barbed Stranglers and the "...Jones is acting strangely" event. I miss the infamous space "merchant" Abdul Goldberg.
I don't however, miss the 1st edition rules for orks. By the end, I don't think the army was playable is you used all the rules. You had charts upon charts upon charts to generate kustom weapons, bionics (hey, have an Ork with two additional arms and an extra head! hand for firing two different heavy weapons at once, as long as the heads don't start arguing). You had special scatter rules (all non-standard) for firing "hop-splat" field guns and the twin autocannons on warbikes, you had four pages of charts for firing the shokk attack gun, charts to roll on to see which charts to roll on to see what the Madboyz did this turn, and then there were the rules for equipment malfunctions and mekboyz - the opponent gets a hand of breakdown cards, the mekboyz get repair cards to try to counter the effects of the breakdowns.
In 2nd edition, I don't mind the rules for vehicles, but they made bike and jetbike squads unplayable. :(
Oh lord, the RT era combi-weapon rules were...hilarious, and I agree outside of a small RPG-esque game, good god no.
I loved the 2nd edition combi-weapons though which used the Artillery dice (2, 4, 6, 8, 10, Misfire). You rolled each time you fired and the result was your strength and half the result was your AP...and a Misfire had a silly chart of you either blowing up, or the shot becoming super-sayan, etc.
It was a great mechanic and one we'll surely miss with the lack of the artillery die. Shame as it was perfectly Orky.
While I'm a huge fan of 2nd, 8th edition is the only other edition to really grab me. I would like to see a bit more of the detail from 2nd transfer in, but I know we're past those days. 2nd had plenty of faults, but was a vastly more interesting game than 3rd-7th. 8th is closer than before.
I would love to see crew used in vehicles. Not in the micro-managing fashion of 2nd edition, but would love to see kits for crewmen which can survive and leave vehicles after they're blown up. I always had fond memories of the four or five Imperial Guardsman sheltering behind their blown up Leman Russ, firing their crappy laspistols at anybody who got too close.
"If a marine equipped with a Cyclone is hit by enemy fire there is a chance his entire stock of missiles will be fired in a single salvo. Roll 2D6, if the score is 11 or 12 the Cyclone immediately activates - roll on the Catastrophic Launch Table.
And on a roll of a 6...
"The marine's gyroscopic stabilisers which counterbalance the Cyclone system malfunction and he is spun round and round whilst firing missiles in random directions. The remaining missiles fire off one at a time. For each missile in turn determine a random direction (D12). The missile will hit the first target within 1" of a direct line drawn in the relevant direction. As each missile is fired the marine is jarred into a new position to fire the next."
How about the Shokk Attack Gun original rules...so fantastic. And actual Distortion Cannon rules. This is where I think GW fell a bit short when it comes to 8th edition. The rules are streamlined enough to provide quite a few bizarre things to occur, and they didn't take advantage of that.
I was really sad to see the Distortion Cannon be relegated to simple short range artillery, etc.
Elbows wrote: While I'm a huge fan of 2nd, 8th edition is the only other edition to really grab me. I would like to see a bit more of the detail from 2nd transfer in, but I know we're past those days. 2nd had plenty of faults, but was a vastly more interesting game than 3rd-7th. 8th is closer than before.
I would love to see crew used in vehicles. Not in the micro-managing fashion of 2nd edition, but would love to see kits for crewmen which can survive and leave vehicles after they're blown up. I always had fond memories of the four or five Imperial Guardsman sheltering behind their blown up Leman Russ, firing their crappy laspistols at anybody who got too close.
I like that. I used to love it when a bunch of desperate tankers tried to survive. I live 2nd but do think 8th is much more “playable”. I think things like crews escaping could be stratagems or more in depth and fun optional rules.
I agree. I'd enjoy modeling up crewmen for my two armies (just have 6-8 on hand for each army, etc.). The old reference materials and datafaxes identify how many there are and what they're armed with etc.
Now a Baneblade...lol...that's a whole squad of guys!
1st ed shock attack gun rules made it so you couldn’t not bring one. My opponents always brought terminators or dreads because they wanted to see what happened too. And mad boyz. Fun but potentially devastating. Just like the fluff said. That’s why ORKS had them because every now and again they would destroy stuff!
2nd ed
I loved being able to play off 2 cards of rules. Screw the rulebook (unless an absolutely necessary ruling was needed) we just put together our armies (by the rules) then only needed those 2 quick-reference rule cards for the rest of the game.
The problem with the 1st edition Shokk Attack Guj rules is that they're fine if that's the only odd thing you've got. The problem is that the Orks had that ... and equally involved rules for Kustom weapons and bioniks and madboyz and mekboyz and weirdboyz and warbikes and field artillery ... a mess.
Sometimes I miss 2nd edition. But then, I also enjoy the sort of game you can play now in 8th edition. The streamlining of 3rd edition was a response to the larger and larger games that people were playing, and 2nd edition was creaking under the strain. For all that people complain about super-heavies in 40k now, my 2nd edition Space Wolves had 3 Land Raiders, a Thunderhawk gunship and an allied Valhallan Baneblade (thank you, Citadel Journal!). I only used all that lot once, and the game dragged on for hours and hours. Even in normal games, I never bothered using Blind grenades because I didn't have 10 each of four different sizes of template and couldn't be bothered rolling for them all each turn.
Look at the battle report they introduced that game with; a Space Marine captain, a Tactical squad, a Devastator squad, a Terminator squad and a Rhino. Against an Ork army in which the largest squad size was 10 Orks and several squads only had 5. In terms of modern 40k, 2nd edition works well with nothing more than a single Patrol detachment per side.
Yeah, lots of nostalgia for 2nd but in reality it was a clunky game even by the standards of most other games back then. Simply moving a full squad of Assault Marines would take ages and resolving their CC attacks was an absolute nightmare.
I liked the flavour of a lot of the rules in 2nd but it was a pretty unbalanced mess to actually play. Smoke grenades, rad grenades, cool psychic powers and such are great fun but not when you then have to resolve cloud effects for every single smoke, plasma and other gas cloud on the board.
2nd ed was a really characterful rules set, but yeah, super clunky. I imagine it would be like trying to use the rules for Kill Team or Necromunda for a 1000pt battle. Way too many special rules to deal with that many models. I like the trend towards fast paced gaming, the few games I've had of 8th have been quite enjoyable because there's more emphasis to just chuck dice down rather than resolving each and every bloody moving template. I swear 2nd needed a "template movement phase" for all the different things that could happen, from vortex to hallucinogen and blind grenades to the rest of the nonsense!
2nd edition was clunky but worked because you set aside the time and prepared to have a laugh. 3rd it all became for too serious. The cost of units meant 2nd didn’t have to take ages. Marines would hardly bring any models and hordes were mostly grots. Now 40k is more like a small game of epic. 3rd really butchered the game and ruined ORKS for me. We are still recovering now. That said I still enjoy 8th. It’s the best all round to play. Doesn’t take all day and if played for fun works really well.
2nd Ed was more like a large tabletop RPG than a proper wargaming experience. Pretty good for small model counts, but as players got larger armies, the time investment in a single game just went way too high (entire weekends in some cases for me and my friends). Worked pretty well for original Necromunda though I thought - not played the new one though, so can't compare.
Still miles less complex than Confrontation, that was a nightmare, and utterly deadly.
Slipspace wrote: Yeah, lots of nostalgia for 2nd but in reality it was a clunky game even by the standards of most other games back then. Simply moving a full squad of Assault Marines would take ages and resolving their CC attacks was an absolute nightmare.
I liked the flavour of a lot of the rules in 2nd but it was a pretty unbalanced mess to actually play. Smoke grenades, rad grenades, cool psychic powers and such are great fun but not when you then have to resolve cloud effects for every single smoke, plasma and other gas cloud on the board.
When you know what you are doing it takes even less time than to roll buckets of dice with endless rerolls like you do in 8th. Just don´t use persistent effects and you are good.
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Kcalehc wrote: 2nd Ed was more like a large tabletop RPG than a proper wargaming experience. Pretty good for small model counts, but as players got larger armies, the time investment in a single game just went way too high (entire weekends in some cases for me and my friends). Worked pretty well for original Necromunda though I thought - not played the new one though, so can't compare.
Still miles less complex than Confrontation, that was a nightmare, and utterly deadly.
Do you know what a rpg is? I have never witnessed a dungeon master in 2nd or the procedure to roll up a character with stats like STR, DEX, CON, INT, WIS & CHA prior a game.
Strg Alt wrote: Do you know what a rpg is? I have never witnessed a dungeon master in 2nd or the procedure to roll up a character with stats like STR, DEX, CON, INT, WIS & CHA prior a game.
Strg Alt wrote: Do you know what a rpg is? I have never witnessed a dungeon master in 2nd or the procedure to roll up a character with stats like STR, DEX, CON, INT, WIS & CHA prior a game.
Strg Alt wrote: Do you know what a rpg is? I have never witnessed a dungeon master in 2nd or the procedure to roll up a character with stats like STR, DEX, CON, INT, WIS & CHA prior a game.
Do you? There are way more RPGs than just D&D.
Please tell me of your 2nd 40Krpg characters.
Please tell me where they said it WAS an RPG and not just LIKE an RPG.
What I got from them was that it had tons of small, fiddly rules more appropriate for an RPG than a Wargame.
To those who actually posted the comparison, let me know if I'm right, if you would.
It was more like an RPG in many respects yep. That’s what I liked about it. Only thing I could take unbridgeable to at what you said was it wasn’t like a “proper” wargame!
As confrontation, I assume you are talking about original necromunda game in white dwarf back in the old rogue trader times. That game was awesome. Complex, but so awesome. For years only had half the rules until a mate turned up the other part of the article.
2nd wasn't bad if you stuck to 2000 pts or less, ignored all the grenades and did guestimate measuring (measure and move 1 model in a squad, then move all the others up to, but not in front of, that first model.
We also didn't mess with turning templates for vehicles most of the time. None of us were trying to sneak in shenanigans so games were really fun and played at a decent pace.
Agreed. I'm convinced every game of 2nd edition missed 40-50% of the rules. I did a support site for 2nd edition a little while ago and while creating loads of cheat-sheets for various sections of the game, I found a HEAP of rules we never used in high school.
We also did the "this is about 45 degrees" turning, we could eye-ball it, so we skipped the tools, etc. Remember during 2nd Games Workshop was very much a "by geeks, for geeks" company. They were business-poor, but were at the top of their game for a lot of things. Even Games Workshop themselves was hesitant to run tournaments and when they did they introduced random arbitrary rules to prevent people from spamming stuff.
This is the GW that came out in White Dwarf and said "hey take these strategy cards we produced...and rip the following ones up, they're crap". A hugely different company. They had actual responses in White Dwarf to questions about spamming/cheesy rules and they'd respond "Don't do that, if you do it, expect someone to punch you!", lol.
When I think back to 2nd edition, it's not the game itself that appealed to me. It was the nostalgia of the atmosphere the company produced. The feeling I got reading White Dwarf was very much like a fireside chat...as opposed to sales propaganda for the latest plastic kit. It was a different feel to the company. We were also high schoolers on a budget so almost none of us were able to run beardy gak (except Ian...god dammit...that kid...and his dad who funded his nonsense!).
There's another thing I miss...
All the free stuff they used to give away. Every so often in a white dwarf was a photocopy and cut out building to assemble, new spell cards, new rules, heck even new games.
For a minute they even had a section on their website for free pdf print and assemble scenery pieces.
While we're on the subject, I'll bring up the often-clash-about-bugaboo. Metal miniatures.
I think GW lost a huge benefit when they moved away from metal miniatures. Blisters were a great way to have a kid spend his $7-10 in his pocket on a figure he would rush home and paint. My Eldar army had a lot of squads of three...why? Because the Fire Dragon blister came with three minis and it's what I spent my $9 on the local game store that weekend.
It also meant far more unique characters, named characters, and event characters. It was far easier for GW to say "hey what about this cool scenario we're doing, or this campaign book, let's whip up a handful of special metal minis". Because metal allows you to do that quickly and without anywhere near the complexity of having a factory in Chinese tool an expensive machine to produce a plastic sprue. There is a reason for GW launching a unit in a codex back in the 90's and releasing 2-3 different sculpts of that model...because they could and it didn't break the bank.
Plastic was a smart move for squads and vehicles, but they should have kept metal around for character models. Neither Finecast nor the way they price plastic individual minis lets them do what they used to do. It's one of the reasons we had so many miniatures for Necromunda, Mordheim, Warhammer Quest, Gorkamorka, etc. You can do a hell of a lot more minis in metal than you can plastic...and if it doesn't work out, you're not out any money, just some sculpting time and a few round-diskette spin molds. The way GW is going...when they retire the last of the Finecast - you'll probably see a marked drop in special characters for anybody other than the big codices/armies. Unless GW adopts a new strategy (i.e. multi heroes in a plastic sprue) the days of seeing characters and named minis for extraneous Space Marine chapters is all but gone.
Eww, no. Metal is a terrible material to work with, and TBH most of those old sculpts are valued more for nostalgia than their actual quality. Artistic decisions aside, the limited and often awkward poses, giant blocks of metal filling in areas behind arms/guns/etc, huge gaps between parts, were far worse than a modern kit is expected to be. And that's before you get into the difficulty of cleaning up casting flaws or doing any kind of conversion work. Metal is dead, and it needs to stay that way.
Now, resin, on the other hand, that's where GW should have gone. Better sculpt quality than you can do in plastic, and none of the material flaws of metal. It's just inexcusable that they went with finecast instead, and as a result of that debacle killed off everything but their plastic kits.
Elbows wrote: I'll humbly disagree. 50% or more of the miniatures I do today are metal, from a variety of companies. It's a perfectly fine material.
Ok. You can disagree and be wrong. Metal offers no advantages over resin and has some major disadvantages. And it certainly isn't a good material when we're talking about obsolete GW sculpts done with GW levels of quality control.
Elbows wrote: I'll humbly disagree. 50% or more of the miniatures I do today are metal, from a variety of companies. It's a perfectly fine material.
Ok. You can disagree and be wrong. Metal offers no advantages over resin and has some major disadvantages. And it certainly isn't a good material when we're talking about obsolete GW sculpts done with GW levels of quality control.
Metal is stronger/less brittle than resin. If a model.comes in both, metal all the way. Aspect Warriors, Calgar, old Greater Daemons, always meyal for me. Also the weight feels good, but thats more subjective.
Elbows wrote: I'll humbly disagree. 50% or more of the miniatures I do today are metal, from a variety of companies. It's a perfectly fine material.
Ok. You can disagree and be wrong. Metal offers no advantages over resin and has some major disadvantages. And it certainly isn't a good material when we're talking about obsolete GW sculpts done with GW levels of quality control.
Metal is stronger/less brittle than resin. If a model.comes in both, metal all the way. Aspect Warriors, Calgar, old Greater Daemons, always meyal for me. Also the weight feels good, but thats more subjective.
Yeah but you can't have the same types of sculpts with metal, like thin delicate parts, metal had detail but only in a mass of metal. You couldn't get the designs now' like Celestine on metal. The weight did feel good but it was the only upside to metal. It chips, its terrible to work with in converting in comparison to plastic, its limiting in sculpting, making large models is a nightmare to assemble.
Not in any relevant way. Resin is more than strong enough for normal use, the strength advantage of metal only applies if you're being careless and throwing a heap of models in a shoe box. And metal has a huge strength disadvantage in the fact that paint chips much more easily, even with normal handling. Unless you don't paint your models (in which case you should quit the hobby) metal will have you doing far more repair work than resin. And that's assuming identical sculpts, ignoring the fact that the places where resin is most prone to breaking are fine details that can't be done at all in metal. If you limit your sculpting choices to what can be done in metal resin should almost never break.
I never had any problem with chipping on metal, unless I was doing something stupid with it. And I've definitely had metal swords etc. last longer than resin ones.
. . .
I'm not sold on the better detail through resin except in very extreme cases. There are a number of metals from even the 2nd Ed era that I'd hold up to todays standards with some of the detail on them. Imo most of the time the detail has more to do with the quality of sculpt than with the medium itself.
Isn't Celestine currently plastic? I actually like her older model better.
Insectum7 wrote: I never had any problem with chipping on metal, unless I was doing something stupid with it. And I've definitely had metal swords etc. last longer than resin ones.
. . .
I'm not sold on the better detail through resin except in very extreme cases. There are a number of metals from even the 2nd Ed era that I'd hold up to todays standards with some of the detail on them. Imo most of the time the detail has more to do with the quality of sculpt than with the medium itself.
Isn't Celestine currently plastic? I actually like her older model better.
Metal models chip just from being in foam cases. Well FW models are far more detailed than metal, but when I mean detail I mean that isn't included in the mass of the model, there are no metal models that are like Celestine that have small details flowing/branching out from the main mass of the model. I mean people have their preferences but on paper metal is just really bad in comparison. You can like metal more but I don't see how people could argue convincingly that it is better. It has so many drawbacks, chipping (which has so many complaints, so anecdotal evidence that yours doesn't chip doesn't really hold), converting problems, sculpting limitations, its expensive etc.
"Expensive" though? I don't think you can sell that one. The old metals were far cheaper than finecast. I mean, there's a lot of complications around pricing, but no equivalent resin model GW has sold has ever been cheaper than the corresponding metal one afaik.
"Expensive" though? I don't think you can sell that one. The old metals were far cheaper than finecast. I mean, there's a lot of complications around pricing, but no equivalent resin model GW has sold has ever been cheaper than the corresponding metal one afaik.
Metal is far more expensive than plastic, even just from a material point of view. Inflation, CPI, PPP etc. always change, what costs 10 pounds 20 years ago doesn't cost 10 pound anymore, plus GW's pricing has been steadily rising for its whole existence and far more than inflation.
Metals extra weight also a huge problem. There was a reason Abaddon was known as armless. I had a metal dread back in 2nd and because I didn't know about pinning (which would require me to also buy a suitable drill and brass wire) it was always coming apart.
On a nostalgic note remember GWs mail order service? You could order a single model, a small bit or part or a selected unit.
I remember in school me and a few mates all chipping in our pocket money to pick up some Ork heavy weapons guys.
Shipping and the exchange rate killed that
Ratius wrote: On a nostalgic note remember GWs mail order service? You could order a single model, a small bit or part or a selected unit.
I remember in school me and a few mates all chipping in our pocket money to pick up some Ork heavy weapons guys.
Shipping and the exchange rate killed that
Yup, remember the thunderhawk/land raider were only mail order.
Strg Alt wrote: Do you know what a rpg is? I have never witnessed a dungeon master in 2nd or the procedure to roll up a character with stats like STR, DEX, CON, INT, WIS & CHA prior a game.
Do you? There are way more RPGs than just D&D.
Please tell me of your 2nd 40Krpg characters.
Please tell me where they said it WAS an RPG and not just LIKE an RPG.
What I got from them was that it had tons of small, fiddly rules more appropriate for an RPG than a Wargame.
To those who actually posted the comparison, let me know if I'm right, if you would.
Well, it is not even like a rpg. You are comparing apples with oranges.
Small, fiddly rules? This is called detail and this great concept was thrown overboard to water down the game in order to make it palatable for nearly everyone.
Strg Alt wrote: Do you know what a rpg is? I have never witnessed a dungeon master in 2nd or the procedure to roll up a character with stats like STR, DEX, CON, INT, WIS & CHA prior a game.
Do you? There are way more RPGs than just D&D.
Please tell me of your 2nd 40Krpg characters.
Please tell me where they said it WAS an RPG and not just LIKE an RPG.
What I got from them was that it had tons of small, fiddly rules more appropriate for an RPG than a Wargame.
To those who actually posted the comparison, let me know if I'm right, if you would.
Well, it is not even like a rpg. You are comparing apples with oranges.
Small, fiddly rules? This is called detail and this great concept was thrown overboard to water down the game in order to make it palatable for nearly everyone.
You don't need a game master or a game to be cooperative to be an RPG. Games of 40k are essentially a one shot RPG adventure with each player taking on the role of their army and the rules the role of the game master. RPG systems usually have more robust rules than other games so yes, having a bunch of rules and wargear options does make the game closer to being an RPG. Hell in 8th they even have a section in the rulebook dedicated to narrative play. A game doesn't need a group of people with 6 different kinds of dice being told what's happening by a guy with a beard and a god complex to be considered an RPG.
Strg Alt wrote: Do you know what a rpg is? I have never witnessed a dungeon master in 2nd or the procedure to roll up a character with stats like STR, DEX, CON, INT, WIS & CHA prior a game.
Do you? There are way more RPGs than just D&D.
Please tell me of your 2nd 40Krpg characters.
Please tell me where they said it WAS an RPG and not just LIKE an RPG.
What I got from them was that it had tons of small, fiddly rules more appropriate for an RPG than a Wargame.
To those who actually posted the comparison, let me know if I'm right, if you would.
Well, it is not even like a rpg. You are comparing apples with oranges.
Small, fiddly rules? This is called detail and this great concept was thrown overboard to water down the game in order to make it palatable for nearly everyone.
I think you are being picky here mate. He said that it was like an RPG with lots of small fussy but rules, which is true as I don’t see table top games like that any more, only RPG’s. It’s you who has decided character creation is the bench mark when he outlined his valid reasons for the comparison.so I would leave it if I were u, you just appear troll like if I carry on.
As for metal vs resin. I prefer the look of metal sculpts. Something more rounded and appealing about the detail. But to work with, modelling and painting, for me metal is horrible. I see why people like the sculpts but I hate modelling them and painting them.
Elbows wrote: I think GW lost a huge benefit when they moved away from metal miniatures. Blisters were a great way to have a kid spend his $7-10 in his pocket on a figure he would rush home and paint. My Eldar army had a lot of squads of three...why? Because the Fire Dragon blister came with three minis and it's what I spent my $9 on the local game store that weekend.
I remember coming home with the odd blister pack from my local model shop on days out too. Terminators came two per pack and I remember buying the Inquisitor/Ordo Malleus and Cyclone Missile Launcher packs after the rules were published in WD. Good memories.
Strg Alt wrote: Do you know what a rpg is? I have never witnessed a dungeon master in 2nd or the procedure to roll up a character with stats like STR, DEX, CON, INT, WIS & CHA prior a game.
Do you? There are way more RPGs than just D&D.
Please tell me of your 2nd 40Krpg characters.
Please tell me where they said it WAS an RPG and not just LIKE an RPG.
What I got from them was that it had tons of small, fiddly rules more appropriate for an RPG than a Wargame.
To those who actually posted the comparison, let me know if I'm right, if you would.
Well, it is not even like a rpg. You are comparing apples with oranges.
Small, fiddly rules? This is called detail and this great concept was thrown overboard to water down the game in order to make it palatable for nearly everyone.
You don't need a game master or a game to be cooperative to be an RPG. Games of 40k are essentially a one shot RPG adventure with each player taking on the role of their army and the rules the role of the game master. RPG systems usually have more robust rules than other games so yes, having a bunch of rules and wargear options does make the game closer to being an RPG. Hell in 8th they even have a section in the rulebook dedicated to narrative play. A game doesn't need a group of people with 6 different kinds of dice being told what's happening by a guy with a beard and a god complex to be considered an RPG.
The nature of the role you're playing changes, that's all. In D&D, your role is a single character. In 40k 2nd edition, you're basically playing the role of a commander overseeing the actins of a platoon or so. In later editions, you're commanding a company or larger.
Also, RPGsare the roots of 40k. The original rules came from a sci-fi RPG under development that was converted to a small-scale skirmish game when Brian Ansell realised the miniatures were popular and they could write a set of rules to help shift more. 1st edition makes a lot of mention of a GM. 2nd edition was a more traditional 2-player game, but all that complexity - the huge stat block, all the different equipment available, etc, is a holdover from its RPG beginnings.
Andykp wrote: I prefer the look of metal sculpts. Something more rounded and appealing about the detail.
That doesn't make any sense. Anything that can be done in metal can be done in resin.
I can sort of see his point; comparing finecast models to metal originals, resin is better at holding sharp edges than metal (e.g. the edges of Space Marine armour plates). Some prefer one, some the other.
Unless it's a one/ two piece model, metal is a nightmare to work with, store/transport and conversions are a pain. And if it's a one or two piece model then it's basically static.
Strg Alt wrote: Do you know what a rpg is? I have never witnessed a dungeon master in 2nd or the procedure to roll up a character with stats like STR, DEX, CON, INT, WIS & CHA prior a game.
Do you? There are way more RPGs than just D&D.
Please tell me of your 2nd 40Krpg characters.
Please tell me where they said it WAS an RPG and not just LIKE an RPG.
What I got from them was that it had tons of small, fiddly rules more appropriate for an RPG than a Wargame.
To those who actually posted the comparison, let me know if I'm right, if you would.
Yes that is exactly what I meant. It was not an RPG, I know, I played a lot then, but it was very similar in may ways in the depth and complexity that the rules went. So, like an RPG, in some aspects - but not the same as.
Mildly amused that small comment created a page or so of argument, after a very condescending retort.
AndrewGPaul wrote: I can sort of see his point; comparing finecast models to metal originals, resin is better at holding sharp edges than metal (e.g. the edges of Space Marine armour plates). Some prefer one, some the other.
Strg Alt wrote: Do you know what a rpg is? I have never witnessed a dungeon master in 2nd or the procedure to roll up a character with stats like STR, DEX, CON, INT, WIS & CHA prior a game.
Do you? There are way more RPGs than just D&D.
Please tell me of your 2nd 40Krpg characters.
Please tell me where they said it WAS an RPG and not just LIKE an RPG.
What I got from them was that it had tons of small, fiddly rules more appropriate for an RPG than a Wargame.
To those who actually posted the comparison, let me know if I'm right, if you would.
Well, it is not even like a rpg. You are comparing apples with oranges.
Small, fiddly rules? This is called detail and this great concept was thrown overboard to water down the game in order to make it palatable for nearly everyone.
You don't need a game master or a game to be cooperative to be an RPG. Games of 40k are essentially a one shot RPG adventure with each player taking on the role of their army and the rules the role of the game master. RPG systems usually have more robust rules than other games so yes, having a bunch of rules and wargear options does make the game closer to being an RPG. Hell in 8th they even have a section in the rulebook dedicated to narrative play. A game doesn't need a group of people with 6 different kinds of dice being told what's happening by a guy with a beard and a god complex to be considered an RPG.
You don´t need a GM for a rpg? Jesus, why have I showed up all the time for those D&D Ravenloft scenarios when the player characters could have sorted it all out by themselves without someone telling the story and controlling the npcs! This is really bad trolling.
Strg Alt wrote: Do you know what a rpg is? I have never witnessed a dungeon master in 2nd or the procedure to roll up a character with stats like STR, DEX, CON, INT, WIS & CHA prior a game.
Do you? There are way more RPGs than just D&D.
Please tell me of your 2nd 40Krpg characters.
Please tell me where they said it WAS an RPG and not just LIKE an RPG.
What I got from them was that it had tons of small, fiddly rules more appropriate for an RPG than a Wargame.
To those who actually posted the comparison, let me know if I'm right, if you would.
Well, it is not even like a rpg. You are comparing apples with oranges.
Small, fiddly rules? This is called detail and this great concept was thrown overboard to water down the game in order to make it palatable for nearly everyone.
You don't need a game master or a game to be cooperative to be an RPG. Games of 40k are essentially a one shot RPG adventure with each player taking on the role of their army and the rules the role of the game master. RPG systems usually have more robust rules than other games so yes, having a bunch of rules and wargear options does make the game closer to being an RPG. Hell in 8th they even have a section in the rulebook dedicated to narrative play. A game doesn't need a group of people with 6 different kinds of dice being told what's happening by a guy with a beard and a god complex to be considered an RPG.
You don´t need a GM for a rpg? Jesus, why have I showed up all the time for those D&D Ravenloft scenarios when the player characters could have sorted it all out by themselves without someone telling the story and controlling the npcs! This is really bad trolling.
Apparently saying you don't need a GM for a game to be an RPG is now the exact same as saying all RPGs can be played without a GM.
Andykp wrote: I prefer the look of metal sculpts. Something more rounded and appealing about the detail.
That doesn't make any sense. Anything that can be done in metal can be done in resin.
It can be done in resin but the material gives it a different finish and aesthetic. There’s something about metal casts that aren’t as harsh as resin. I’ve had resin casts of metal models from recasteds (naughty I know) and they didn’t look the same.
Don’t get me wrong. I hate painting and gaming with metal, plastic is my fave material but metal models can look lovely in a way resin doesn’t capture it. It’s subjective but that’s me.
Insectum7 wrote: Well if you're talking about raw materials, then you're getting better value for your dollar
That doesn't make any sense at all.
You made the argument that metal as a material is more expensive. However most models GW sold in metal, that were later made in resin, the metal model was cheaper. Therefore, better value for your dollar, as you paid less to get a more expensive material.
What I miss most is character customization.
I miss being able to customize my dude out however I wanted. This goes hand in hand with missing the customization of the model kits. Plastic is such a good medium for the game because it is so easy to do conversions with, and easy to make multi-pose sprues with. Mono-pose just wastes all that potential.
I also miss many of the older named characters, especially the ones that had rules, and are still mentioned, but now aren't playable. Even if they didn't make models, letting people convert their own would be nice.
As for the metal/plastic/resin debate, I prefer plastic. The newest ones look even sharper then the old metals, hold their paint better, are easier to convert, and are lighter.
Brother Castor wrote: Whilst I'm nostalgic about the old metal models, I can't deny that plastic is so much better.
Sure, and no one is arguing that. What I'm arguing is that by leaving metal they fundamentally changed what they can do and will do in the future...and it's a net loss. No one is saying plastic isn't a great medium to put miniatures in. Plastic all day every day for vehicles, multi-part kits, basic troops, etc. Sure. And no one is saying "oh, make the new Celestine in metal". She's a neat model but terrible from a gaming perspective, a transport perspective, etc. I'm not advocating bringing back dreadsocks either.
But would you trade one mono-pose plastic sprue with one weapon load out....for potentially three or four metal miniatures of the same unit entry? Giving you more choice (and likely a much cheaper cost). Also, when Finecast disappears how many people think that Imperial Fist, Black Templar, and Crimson Fist (etc.) characters are going to be put into expensive plastic moulds? I know how GW could tackle this, but I don't see them doing it.
Of course, I'm biased because the Eldar range never had better models than it did in the 90's with Goodwin Eldar. I love a few of the new plastic kits, and personally 2D poses don't bug me. I also love not spending extra time assembling a basic infantry model from 6-10 plastic pieces.
Spoiler:
Oh, and I also don't have problems chipping. Would I support plastic Eldar aspects and new guardians/dire avengers? Sure. Do I want a plastic single-pose Psyker for each role for $20-30? No I do not.
Elbows wrote: While we're on the subject, I'll bring up the often-clash-about-bugaboo. Metal miniatures.
I think GW lost a huge benefit when they moved away from metal miniatures. Blisters were a great way to have a kid spend his $7-10 in his pocket on a figure he would rush home and paint. My Eldar army had a lot of squads of three...why? Because the Fire Dragon blister came with three minis and it's what I spent my $9 on the local game store that weekend.
It also meant far more unique characters, named characters, and event characters. It was far easier for GW to say "hey what about this cool scenario we're doing, or this campaign book, let's whip up a handful of special metal minis". Because metal allows you to do that quickly and without anywhere near the complexity of having a factory in Chinese tool an expensive machine to produce a plastic sprue. There is a reason for GW launching a unit in a codex back in the 90's and releasing 2-3 different sculpts of that model...because they could and it didn't break the bank.
Plastic was a smart move for squads and vehicles, but they should have kept metal around for character models. Neither Finecast nor the way they price plastic individual minis lets them do what they used to do. It's one of the reasons we had so many miniatures for Necromunda, Mordheim, Warhammer Quest, Gorkamorka, etc. You can do a hell of a lot more minis in metal than you can plastic...and if it doesn't work out, you're not out any money, just some sculpting time and a few round-diskette spin molds. The way GW is going...when they retire the last of the Finecast - you'll probably see a marked drop in special characters for anybody other than the big codices/armies. Unless GW adopts a new strategy (i.e. multi heroes in a plastic sprue) the days of seeing characters and named minis for extraneous Space Marine chapters is all but gone.
You know, they still do packs that have about 3-4 figures (I'm not talking the character models either), but they're a little more expensive. There is at least 4 Eldar guardians for $10, 5 Imperial Guard for $10, 3 Space Marines for $10 and 3 Primaris for $15. It's just that you need so many figures for regular 40K, no one bothers to buy the small packs. They'd be good deals for Kill Team, I suspect.
And I'm glad metal is going away (I hate working with it), and wish Finecast would disappear with it.
I only own metal model there doesn't seem to be much difference in looks between them and the plastic GK models. But I know that some really good looking model could never be done in plastic like the diaznetts for example.
I guess plastic is nice, and I understand it was a huge improvment over mono pose metal models back when plastic multi part boxs were intreduced. But if the future of GW models is suppose to be something like primaris or Stormcast models, then all that was good about plastic is gone. Snap fit models, with few to no weapon options. No good ways to recast the models or weapons, if you need those 10 plasmas. But the worse things are plastic mono pose characters, not only does GW seem to be hellbend on making the models as impossible to transport as possible, but they also clock as much for them as they do for whole squads of dudes.
Lets take a GK example, a Voldus is hard to impossible to different from a regular joe Thunder hammer Termintor model, specially by the opponent. Yet he costs as if he was a multi part box with a ton of parts.
