Who thinks GW will update imperial terminators as primaris terminators and leave the regular terminators as is? The chaos terminators are beautiful and inspires me to start a force around terminators but I prefer the primaris look overall vs chaos.
Arcanis161 wrote: A number of people will say Aggressors are the new Terminators. However, IMHO, they don't feel the same as Terminators.
I would not be opposed to Primaris Terminators.
I think Gravis will at some point get the option to upgrade to an invuln and an additional wound. maybe having the option to do mixed loadouts, i.e. boltstorm gauntlet & power sword (ala gravcapt) or flamestorm & thunder hammer.
Or they could have something different. which would also be cool. they really need a tough melee oriented unit.
They don't need to? Terminators are already taller, have an extra wound, and a good plastic kit. They are to Primaris marines the same thing they were to regular marines last edition. Same wounds, better saves, more elite loadout and points cost.
I agree Aggressors are close to Primaris Termies and probably a good example of how GW is going to "Primarify" Marines.
No unit is going to 100% replace a non-Primaris equivalent. Intercessors are the closest to this, but as they do not have access to special/heavy weapons, they don't "quite" replace Tacticals.
Just like Aggressors don't 'quite' replace Termies, but they are close enough.
Reivers are a good example of a Primaris unit that borrows from 2 different roles (albeit inadequately so). They are kind of in the middle ground of non-sniper Scouts and non-jump Assault Marines in role.
Eliminators, of course borrow heavily form Sniper Scouts, but by not being Troops, they fill a slightly different role.
I'd expect GW to continue this trend of release new Primaris units that take roles from other units while completely replacing those units.
It's clever, really, as GW gets to continue releasing new units without "invalidating" the old unit....just yet. Once all the "roles" are filled, however, and Old Marine sales start to drop, we all know want's gonna happen.
So now, I do not think Termies will be getting Primarified. But I do think a Gravis unit that is more melee oriented might show up eventually.
Vector Strike wrote: They certainly will. Nothing is safe from Cawl and his Primaris-fying needle!
Of the units that have come out, which ones actually correspond to existing units? Intercessors correspond to Tactical Squads, to a certain extent. They can't take a heavy weapon, and I look at the grenade launcher as more of a special weapon. That the sergeants can finally take a halfways decent variety of melee weapons is the only step in the right direction we have seen lately. I guess Hellblasters sort of mimic Devastators. But that is basically it. Nothing else really corresponds to a RSM variant.
Looking at Infantry and Bikers,
Assault Squads - I guess if you really want to say Reivers are these, even though they definitely are bit. Inceptors are airborne Devastators, as are Suppressors, not Assault Marines.
Bike Squads - Nope. Aggressors and Inceptors are closer due to their speed and higher toughness.
Terminators - Nope. No Invulnerables, no Heavy Weapons, no Teleport Strike. Inceptors are closer than Aggressors are.
Veterans(Sternguard, Vanguard, or Company) - Using a Specialist Detachment and a Stratagem, you can make one Squad of Intercessors into these. So...nope.
Attack Bikes - Nope.
Scouts - Eliminators and Scouts are most definitely not the same thing. Infiltrators are closer, but still fill a different niche. No HW. Maybe they will get a non-Mastercrafted version of the Phobos Captain's gun, which might make them closer.
So two out of however many units. That's totally the same thing.
This is where I think they really missed a step with the Aggressor pattern armour.
In short: Primaris Terminator Squads are Impossible
Outlandish statement, perhaps? Not so much. Aggressors are not particularly durable, with very little making them special. They certainly share the profile and bulk that a Terminator replacement should have though - which is the problem. They even have several small terminator nods in their design (the helmets feature the jowl-cylinders of normal terminators, etc.).
Aggressors come in squads of three, because they're quite large miniatures. This means that any future Terminator version will be at the very most, three models (as sold in the box at least). There will not be a boxed set of five Primaris Terminator replacement minis. It'll be either a up-armoured aggressor style with three models, or, more logically, an Obliterator type of unit (essentially they'll be the new evolution of Centurions which'll disappear since they're crap and no one uses them).
Primaris minis, as they get larger, squad sizes will go down. I think they just really fethed up by making Aggressors so minimally better than basic armour. They should have been "the" Terminator replacements, full stop. They should have released in a few more options with more weapons, etc. GW is in a weird spot, since something with Terminator-esque-beating stats and armour will have to be bigger or bulkier than aggressors. But large squads of heavy armored veterans...more or less dead at the moment unless GW re-writes something.
I could see a gravis unit that is a terminator equivilant, give it a stoime sheild, melee weapon and wrist mounted boltgun and you've a solid unit. it'd be pricy though
BrianDavion wrote: I could see a gravis unit that is a terminator equivilant, give it a stoime sheild, melee weapon and wrist mounted boltgun and you've a solid unit. it'd be pricy though
That seems like a decent option. Maybe the gun could be integrated into the melee weapon or shield. I would love to see close combat Suppressors to go with their long range dudes, especially since the Suppressors seem to imply there is a decent CC unit that just doesn't exist yet.
BrianDavion wrote: I could see a gravis unit that is a terminator equivilant, give it a stoime sheild, melee weapon and wrist mounted boltgun and you've a solid unit. it'd be pricy though
That seems like a decent option. Maybe the gun could be integrated into the melee weapon or shield. I would love to see close combat Suppressors to go with their long range dudes, especially since the Suppressors seem to imply there is a decent CC unit that just doesn't exist yet.
Maybe borrow from the stormsheild/sword option custodes have?
BrianDavion wrote: I could see a gravis unit that is a terminator equivilant, give it a stoime sheild, melee weapon and wrist mounted boltgun and you've a solid unit. it'd be pricy though
That seems like a decent option. Maybe the gun could be integrated into the melee weapon or shield. I would love to see close combat Suppressors to go with their long range dudes, especially since the Suppressors seem to imply there is a decent CC unit that just doesn't exist yet.
Maybe borrow from the stormsheild/sword option custodes have?
Primarchs and Custodes wear Terminator Armour, so it seems reasonable that they might be able to cram Primaris in there. After all, it's supposed to be the ultimate form of personal armour.
No melee units thus far has been a blessing in disguise. If they'd come out early in 8th they'd be as feth-awful as normal Marine assault units are. This will at least give GW time to establish what's good in the game so they're not dead-on-arrival like normal Assault Marines, etc. And sadly...I say that as a casual player.
Elbows wrote: This is where I think they really missed a step with the Aggressor pattern armour.
In short: Primaris Terminator Squads are Impossible
Outlandish statement, perhaps? Not so much. Aggressors are not particularly durable, with very little making them special. They certainly share the profile and bulk that a Terminator replacement should have though - which is the problem. They even have several small terminator nods in their design (the helmets feature the jowl-cylinders of normal terminators, etc.).
Aggressors come in squads of three, because they're quite large miniatures. This means that any future Terminator version will be at the very most, three models (as sold in the box at least). There will not be a boxed set of five Primaris Terminator replacement minis. It'll be either a up-armoured aggressor style with three models, or, more logically, an Obliterator type of unit (essentially they'll be the new evolution of Centurions which'll disappear since they're crap and no one uses them).
Primaris minis, as they get larger, squad sizes will go down. I think they just really fethed up by making Aggressors so minimally better than basic armour. They should have been "the" Terminator replacements, full stop. They should have released in a few more options with more weapons, etc. GW is in a weird spot, since something with Terminator-esque-beating stats and armour will have to be bigger or bulkier than aggressors. But large squads of heavy armored veterans...more or less dead at the moment unless GW re-writes something.
Gravis armour is basically a auxiliary platform for marines like Centurion suits. Hook up massive thrusters, missiles, belt fed weapons. A Terminator equivalent would most likely be different. That way GW can make things in gravis armour and "Termie armour+"
Elbows wrote: This is where I think they really missed a step with the Aggressor pattern armour.
In short: Primaris Terminator Squads are Impossible
Outlandish statement, perhaps? Not so much. Aggressors are not particularly durable, with very little making them special. They certainly share the profile and bulk that a Terminator replacement should have though - which is the problem. They even have several small terminator nods in their design (the helmets feature the jowl-cylinders of normal terminators, etc.).
Aggressors come in squads of three, because they're quite large miniatures. This means that any future Terminator version will be at the very most, three models (as sold in the box at least). There will not be a boxed set of five Primaris Terminator replacement minis. It'll be either a up-armoured aggressor style with three models, or, more logically, an Obliterator type of unit (essentially they'll be the new evolution of Centurions which'll disappear since they're crap and no one uses them).
Primaris minis, as they get larger, squad sizes will go down. I think they just really fethed up by making Aggressors so minimally better than basic armour. They should have been "the" Terminator replacements, full stop. They should have released in a few more options with more weapons, etc. GW is in a weird spot, since something with Terminator-esque-beating stats and armour will have to be bigger or bulkier than aggressors. But large squads of heavy armored veterans...more or less dead at the moment unless GW re-writes something.
Gravis armour is basically a auxiliary platform for marines like Centurion suits. Hook up massive thrusters, missiles, belt fed weapons. A Terminator equivalent would most likely be different. That way GW can make things in gravis armour and "Termie armour+"
Correct, and I understand that...but that's simply a design decision and a poor one. You now have very large, very expensive miniatures...which need to be one-upped to justify making a stronger unit. There's no logical room in the model line for a Terminator unit at this point unless they hand-wavium "heavy aggressors" or give up and go straight to much larger Obliterator-styled models.
Eldarain wrote: I'm really surprised none of the Primaris units have been melee specialists.
Reivers are, they're just really bad at it.
They are better off leaving their knives at home and being jetted around the board by the Photos Librarian and using their bolt carbines. Too bad they are not any better at that than Intercessors are.
I would really like to see a Gravis unit like BrianDavion suggests. A Storm Shield and something like the Sentinel Blade. They would be similar to Terminators that way, but still unique.
It could be a possibility, the people over at games workshop have been constantly developing the Primaris Space Marines as of late, so we may get Primaris terminators.
[snip] (essentially they'll be the new evolution of Centurions which'll disappear since they're crap and no one uses them).
[/snip]
This always bothers me because A) I happen to really like that model and B) there's nothing inherently wrong with the Centurion chassis. It's a W3, S5, T5, 2+, A2, with move-and-fire built in. (Which might as well have a 5++ against most of the field, there really aren't that many AP 4 weapons.) That's roughly a Custodes, minus the invuln bump they get as an army trait, and getting one fewer attack is ok when even the melee Centurions have much better ranged firepower than anything a Custodes can take.
The Centurion's real problem (besides people not liking the model, which is entirely subjective) is that they're absurdly over-gunned and don't benefit from the Twin-Linked discounts. Even the cheapest option on a CDev is 30 points. 12 bolt gun and 6 HB shots is nothing to sneeze at, but 70 points total is steep for something that you can't take less than three of. 40 is probably still a bit too expensive, but what they really need is a cheaper entry-level weapon loadout. Imagine if they had Storm Bolters as the basic arm gun: the base price is now only 54 points for 20 bolter shots on Devs, and the base melee version is also 8 points cheaper and has better base threat range.
Edit: Come to think of it, why is a Hurricane Bolter still 10 points? It's three linked Storm Bolters, if anything it shouldn't even cost 6.
Arcanis161 wrote: A number of people will say Aggressors are the new Terminators. However, IMHO, they don't feel the same as Terminators.
I would not be opposed to Primaris Terminators.
maybe that has something to do with the fact that a terminator suit gives you a 5++, double the wounds, 2+ armor save, and deep strike, and a suit of Gravitatious Armitoriation (tm) gives you just +1T, a rule that sometimes, but not often, makes a single die shift of difference in your defenses.
Primaris Terminators are already in the game actually, only they don't have the primaris keyword as of yet.
Centaurian Devestators are in fact primaris terminators.
There will eventually be an update converting them over to primaris in the future. It will probably not happen till 9th edition when they can completely phase out the Index options.
Eihnlazer wrote: Primaris Terminators are already in the game actually, only they don't have the primaris keyword as of yet.
Centaurian Devestators are in fact primaris terminators.
There will eventually be an update converting them over to primaris in the future. It will probably not happen till 9th edition when they can completely phase out the Index options.
Don't the new Obliterators who are mutated centurions kind of shoot holes in this?
Eihnlazer wrote: Primaris Terminators are already in the game actually, only they don't have the primaris keyword as of yet.
Centaurian Devestators are in fact primaris terminators.
There will eventually be an update converting them over to primaris in the future. It will probably not happen till 9th edition when they can completely phase out the Index options.
Don't the new Obliterators who are mutated centurions kind of shoot holes in this?
they're not mutated centurions but are in fact mutated havoks. if you compare a oblit to a havok VERY carefully you can actually see the relationship
Preaching to the converted. I hope that this Sunday they'll say that vanguard are gonna go up for preorder that weekend. Then hopefully there's another unit or 2 to complete the release
Groslon wrote:They don't need to? Terminators are already taller, have an extra wound, and a good plastic kit. They are to Primaris marines the same thing they were to regular marines last edition. Same wounds, better saves, more elite loadout and points cost.
All primaris tend to have +1 wound/attack and a "better" bolter - a tall terminator with 3 wounds/attacks and a super Cawl stormbolter would be welcomed by me. Also, the regular imperial terminator kits are not that good, pretty much everything else in the marine range has been updated since these.
Elbows wrote:This is where I think they really missed a step with the Aggressor pattern armour.
In short: Primaris Terminator Squads are Impossible
Why would it be impossible to stick a primaris marine in a new mark of terminator armour? primaris have already had 3 marks of power armour and there are 6 active terminator armour sub types within the various imperial armies, no reason at all why there isnt room for a new suit now that the imperium/mechanicus is innovating again.
Personally I think it is only a matter of time before the primaris range is expanded upon significantly - eventually matching the scale of the old marine range. Basic units like assault marines (with actual jump packs) and terminators will show up eventually.
Finally, the cover art of the kill team elites set previewed a while ago on warhammer community featured a terminator in a unique set of armour that seemed primaris-fied.
Groslon wrote:They don't need to? Terminators are already taller, have an extra wound, and a good plastic kit. They are to Primaris marines the same thing they were to regular marines last edition. Same wounds, better saves, more elite loadout and points cost.
All primaris tend to have +1 wound/attack and a "better" bolter - a tall terminator with 3 wounds/attacks and a super Cawl stormbolter would be welcomed by me. Also, the regular imperial terminator kits are not that good, pretty much everything else in the marine range has been updated since these.
Elbows wrote:This is where I think they really missed a step with the Aggressor pattern armour.
In short: Primaris Terminator Squads are Impossible
Why would it be impossible to stick a primaris marine in a new mark of terminator armour? primaris have already had 3 marks of power armour and there are 6 active terminator armour sub types within the various imperial armies, no reason at all why there isnt room for a new suit now that the imperium/mechanicus is innovating again.
Personally I think it is only a matter of time before the primaris range is expanded upon significantly - eventually matching the scale of the old marine range. Basic units like assault marines (with actual jump packs) and terminators will show up eventually.
Finally, the cover art of the kill team elites set previewed a while ago on warhammer community featured a terminator in a unique set of armour that seemed primaris-fied.
correction there Primaris have one Mark of pwoer armor, but it's a modular system that can be built up or stripped down as needed (which is actually a smart idea, love it)
I think we'll probably get more options for Aggressors before we ever see anything with both the Primaris and Terminator keywords. In fact, the limb I'm currently climbing out on is that we will never see a loyalist release with the word Terminator ever again.
Yeah I think Terminator armour has probably gone the way of the dodo for Primaris. Makes me glad I collect World Eaters and Deathguard as with everything else, Primaris seems like a different army now.
Eihnlazer wrote: Primaris Terminators are already in the game actually, only they don't have the primaris keyword as of yet.
Centaurian Devestators are in fact primaris terminators.
There will eventually be an update converting them over to primaris in the future. It will probably not happen till 9th edition when they can completely phase out the Index options.
All kidding aside I do actually kind of hope this happens. Centurions feel exactly like what I would expect a serious Primaris Devestator squad to look like and I don't want that kit to go away when mini-marines get squatted.
In my opinion you can't replace terminator squads with anything that isn't a terminator squad. They're too iconic to lose. Neither gravis armour nor centurions are satisfactory substitutes. It has to be recognisably terminator armour. I'd like to see genuine primaris terminators, as well as proper assault marines, devestators, and rhinos.
Ice_can wrote: At 4w each they would actually be maybe worth their points.
Do that and drop the base price of Hurricane Bolters to 5 like they should be, and Dev Cents are probably good. 40 points is a bit too much for a W3 model with no invuln, but a W4...yeah, that's getting there.
I do think it's worth noting that Assault Centurions are apparently paying 13 points for those Seige Drills, just a hair more than a Guardian Spear for a clearly superior profile. If they had a cheaper low-end option than Flamers I probably wouldn't own any Custodes.
For being termies they must have 2+. Agressors are a very nice miniature and from the begining they should had 2+ save an invuln and some sort of heavy weapons like Onslaughts.
Gunrunner1775 wrote: give all Gravis armor a 5++ (this would be aggressors and inceptors) then they would be worth the points they cost
Why? How often are they dying to -3/-4 AP weapons? You don't need to fire plasma at them if massed mid-str attrition firepower does the job better.
increase aggressors attacks characteristic by 1 (they are dual wielding power fists after all )
Yes, please. Or remove the -1 to hit on their fists. Something, truly anything, to reflect that they're rolling around with 2 of them.
give inceptors option to swap out one of their guns for a power sword
I think they'd need something more than just tons of AP on a str 4 base. I'd prefer either a Cawl style chainsword for extra attacks, or something like a power axe/maul.
that's the only things I want to see change for my primaris list
I want Reivers to be truly disruptive: longer lasting impact on their grenades (should last through the opponent's shooting phase) and require a LD showdown for a unit to fall back from Terror Troops.
I want the Redemptor to ignore the penalty to moving and firing a heavy weapon, and for his plasma cannon to be 2d3 on shots instead of d6.
And I want anatomically correct Terminator armour that are both imposing in looks and on the table. I do not care WHO resides in the TDA, only that they terminate. So I'm all for Primaris Terminators. I'm all for new Astartes Terminators. I just want them to come with a rules refresh that makes them resilient and dangerous.
I'll admit that while I want real CC options on the Reaver sergeant, I really want those options to be Power Axe / Chainfist instead of the usual Power Sword / Power Fist.
Based on the couple Voxcasts that have mentioned designing the Primaris range, there’s talk of us seeing multiple variations on the Mark X suit.
So far, the ‘Phobos’ pattern is the most fleshed out, with Reivers, Eliminators etc.
The ‘Tacticus’ pattern has given us Intercessors, Hellblasters and Suppressors.
The ‘Gravis’ pattern units so far are Aggressors and Inceptors.
It was stated we likely haven’t seen all the units associated with these patterns, and that there may be more patterns we haven’t yet seen at all.
My guess would be further Tacticus and Gravis variants will come; close combat? Long range shooting? But then any additional patterns, would, presumably, be even more heavily armoured than Gravis, as there isn’t any other obvious ‘gap’ to fill, so I’d think these would be a more full on Terminator, or perhaps even a Centurion style unit in terms of size.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ginjitzu wrote: I think we'll probably get more options for Aggressors before we ever see anything with both the Primaris and Terminator keywords. In fact, the limb I'm currently climbing out on is that we will never see a loyalist release with the word Terminator ever again.
Next year’s Adepticon model is a Librarian in Termie Armour
Tainted wrote: In my opinion you can't replace terminator squads with anything that isn't a terminator squad. They're too iconic to lose. Neither gravis armour nor centurions are satisfactory substitutes.
100% agree.
Chaos just got a new Terminator kit anyways, and I expect loyalist Marines will get comparable updates soonish (Terminators, Tacticals, etc) to bring them to the updated scale. I definitely do not forsee a world where loyalists are all Primaris and Chaos is all true-marine.
Tainted wrote: In my opinion you can't replace terminator squads with anything that isn't a terminator squad. They're too iconic to lose. Neither gravis armour nor centurions are satisfactory substitutes.
100% agree.
Chaos just got a new Terminator kit anyways, and I expect loyalist Marines will get comparable updates soonish (Terminators, Tacticals, etc) to bring them to the updated scale. I definitely do not forsee a world where loyalists are all Primaris and Chaos is all true-marine.
Not yet another box of tacs/Terminators - considering how many units are still to be done for factions other than Marines.....
any maybe more new stuff not just the same old models
I see very little reason to buy more mini-marines as it is, but a new kit might inspire me to buy some of the old kits my lgs has in stock to build Veterans/Sternguard Wouldn't want them to be inconsistent with my existing models.
Tainted wrote: In my opinion you can't replace terminator squads with anything that isn't a terminator squad. They're too iconic to lose. Neither gravis armour nor centurions are satisfactory substitutes. It has to be recognisably terminator armour. I'd like to see genuine primaris terminators, as well as proper assault marines, devestators, and rhinos.
Exactly, SM's no longer look like my army. If they get rid of terminator armour I'll fall even more our of love with my loyalists than I already have, I'll probably just stick with Custodes and hope they don't totally mess up my GK's.
Gravis armour is definitely not replacing Terminator armour anytime soon. Or likely at at. It serves more as a weapons platform like the Centurion armour does, but is done in a more logical way than the Centurions were (by making it a single suit of armour instead of an exosuit worn over your armour).
The biggest reason that terminator isn't going away for this is they serve different roles. Basically terminator armour is for boarding space hulks and teleporting into heavily defended positions and taking the enemy leadership out and then fighting their way out. Gravis armour has potential for the first, but it can't do the second as effectively.
I expect we'll see terminators at some point, the question is how they'll be equipped. I could see things changing from the old powerfist/storm bolter combo. I'd assume they'd have some kind of bolt storm gauntlet style fist and either a second melee weapon (like a power weapon) or perhaps a storm shield.
Actually I wish we'd gotten the bolt storm gauntlet as an option for Intercessor Sergeants. It's basically just a power fist with a gun on it, and would have been a nice option for the troops choice over regular power fists.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I forgot to address the unit size issue. If they really end up shrinking the unit size further due to the size of the models like suggested, then we'd see boxes of 2 with unit size being 2-4 or 2-6. Considering the Custodes terminators are a unit of 3 though, I expect the Primaris ones will be as well.
ClockworkZion wrote: Gravis armour is definitely not replacing Terminator armour anytime soon. Or likely at at. It serves more as a weapons platform like the Centurion armour does, but is done in a more logical way than the Centurions were (by making it a single suit of armour instead of an exosuit worn over your armour).
The biggest reason that terminator isn't going away for this is they serve different roles. Basically terminator armour is for boarding space hulks and teleporting into heavily defended positions and taking the enemy leadership out and then fighting their way out. Gravis armour has potential for the first, but it can't do the second as effectively.
I expect we'll see terminators at some point, the question is how they'll be equipped. I could see things changing from the old powerfist/storm bolter combo. I'd assume they'd have some kind of bolt storm gauntlet style fist and either a second melee weapon (like a power weapon) or perhaps a storm shield.
Actually I wish we'd gotten the bolt storm gauntlet as an option for Intercessor Sergeants. It's basically just a power fist with a gun on it, and would have been a nice option for the troops choice over regular power fists.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I forgot to address the unit size issue. If they really end up shrinking the unit size further due to the size of the models like suggested, then we'd see boxes of 2 with unit size being 2-4 or 2-6. Considering the Custodes terminators are a unit of 3 though, I expect the Primaris ones will be as well.
How do you know? The only evidence we have is Calgar and he's in Gravis armour now. They are at least going to update the armour.
ClockworkZion wrote: Gravis armour is definitely not replacing Terminator armour anytime soon. Or likely at at. It serves more as a weapons platform like the Centurion armour does, but is done in a more logical way than the Centurions were (by making it a single suit of armour instead of an exosuit worn over your armour).
The biggest reason that terminator isn't going away for this is they serve different roles. Basically terminator armour is for boarding space hulks and teleporting into heavily defended positions and taking the enemy leadership out and then fighting their way out. Gravis armour has potential for the first, but it can't do the second as effectively.
I expect we'll see terminators at some point, the question is how they'll be equipped. I could see things changing from the old powerfist/storm bolter combo. I'd assume they'd have some kind of bolt storm gauntlet style fist and either a second melee weapon (like a power weapon) or perhaps a storm shield.
Actually I wish we'd gotten the bolt storm gauntlet as an option for Intercessor Sergeants. It's basically just a power fist with a gun on it, and would have been a nice option for the troops choice over regular power fists.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I forgot to address the unit size issue. If they really end up shrinking the unit size further due to the size of the models like suggested, then we'd see boxes of 2 with unit size being 2-4 or 2-6. Considering the Custodes terminators are a unit of 3 though, I expect the Primaris ones will be as well.
How do you know? The only evidence we have is Calgar and he's in Gravis armour now. They are at least going to update the armour.
true but Calgar had a "in normal armor" option for awhile. also his gravis armor HAS a 2+ save so 2+ save gravis armor would have some precident
Honestly I agree and disagree, I belvie Gravis will be the new temry template but the new terminator equivilant wilkl employ an even heavier varient of gravis we've not seen yet.
Cool but when you state your opinion saying 'definitely' it gives the reader the impression that you know.
Unless someone is claiming to be a GWdev it's always an opinion. Claiming it to be presented as fact because I didn't start every sentence with "I think" or "in my opinion". This whole thread is nothing more than speculation and opinions.
Choose a better hill to make your stand on next time.
Cool but when you state your opinion saying 'definitely' it gives the reader the impression that you know.
Unless someone is claiming to be a GWdev it's always an opinion. Claiming it to be presented as fact because I didn't start every sentence with "I think" or "in my opinion". This whole thread is nothing more than speculation and opinions.
Choose a better hill to make your stand on next time.
I'm not gaking on you or anything, but next time you can say 'most likely' rather than 'definitely'.
Cool but when you state your opinion saying 'definitely' it gives the reader the impression that you know.
Unless someone is claiming to be a GWdev it's always an opinion. Claiming it to be presented as fact because I didn't start every sentence with "I think" or "in my opinion". This whole thread is nothing more than speculation and opinions.
Choose a better hill to make your stand on next time.
I'm not gaking on you or anything, but next time you can say 'most likely' rather than 'definitely'.
I'd rather assume a given level of common sense by readers than waste my time writing more just for the one person on the back who doesn't pay attention.
Cool but when you state your opinion saying 'definitely' it gives the reader the impression that you know.
Unless someone is claiming to be a GWdev it's always an opinion. Claiming it to be presented as fact because I didn't start every sentence with "I think" or "in my opinion". This whole thread is nothing more than speculation and opinions.
Choose a better hill to make your stand on next time.
I'm not gaking on you or anything, but next time you can say 'most likely' rather than 'definitely'.
I'd rather assume a given level of common sense by readers than waste my time writing more just for the one person on the back who doesn't pay attention.
The most innovative thing that the primaris marines have introduced in the model design phase (and in the fluff too) it's the armor modularity.
The only common element is the undersuit layer. Then you apply to them plates and accessories to fit a certain design and you can mix and match. It's kind of a shame that the primaris are so monopose and monopurpose because in reality they offer the highest flexibility in theory.
Just look at the suppressors. They have the base ceramite plating, from the tactics, coupled with antigrav fins and the jump boots. They are nicknamed Omnis armor, but you can see them as the sum of their parts easily.
So, with each release, they can came up with new plantings and accessories and mix them. Hopefully the next release will focus on new Gravis variants, just as shadows pear focused on the phobos. I would love to see it used as a heavier weapon platform and as a heavy melee unit, perfect to create the terminator equivalent. Galgar's armor of 2+ is a precedent for heavier armor plating.
Also, all primaris units should have access to a "turn veteran" stratagem, not just intercessors.
I could definitely see a heavy varient release (perhaps centered around Imperial Fists) for the next big Marine push in the future (maybe with a Primaris version of Lysander as well).
I do love the modularity, and maybe the Gravis will get an "Termanus" version or something and not a true Terminator suit. At the end of the day there are definitely gaps in the Primaris line that need filling and it's going to be a while before we get them filled.
I'm still waiting on a Primaris Crusader Squad, but GW seems to want to avoid actually supporting the Templars most of the time.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: I'm not gaking on you or anything, but next time you can say 'most likely' rather than 'definitely'.
He has no need to, his post was obviously opinion.
Apparently it's only apparent if you pay attention or something.
Back on topic, I still stand by that I don't see the Terminators going anywhere in the long run. I just feel like Gravis and Terminator armour fit two different roles (the former making you a massive weapons platform, the latter making you a walking bunker that punches stuff). I could see a close combat version of Gravis coming about as a stop gap (since Terminator armour itself is rare, hard to repair and harder to modify or replace), but unless they have Storm Shields or something it's just not going to fill the same role. Anything is possible, I just doubt the likeliness dropping Terminators in the long run.
Then again I still assume that mini-Marines are going to eventually be taken out of circulation and left with legacy only rules meaning some of those units will seem Primaris updates.
Cool but when you state your opinion saying 'definitely' it gives the reader the impression that you know.
Unless someone is claiming to be a GWdev it's always an opinion. Claiming it to be presented as fact because I didn't start every sentence with "I think" or "in my opinion". This whole thread is nothing more than speculation and opinions.
Choose a better hill to make your stand on next time.
I'm not gaking on you or anything, but next time you can say 'most likely' rather than 'definitely'.
I'd rather assume a given level of common sense by readers than waste my time writing more just for the one person on the back who doesn't pay attention.
That's super hilarious considering you've spent more energy defending your silly position than it would have taken to be clearer in your original post, or even apologize for the confusion and move on. If you're not willing to take the time to write what you actually mean, why should we take the time to decipher it? The message becomes worthless, and I don't think anybody wants that.
But let's stop gaking up the thread with this.
Primaris Terminators would need to bring with them very clear and noticeable similarities to the current line. The helm, the way it is inset into the armour, the weapons. Gravis doesn't have many of those visual cues.
But ultimately the idea of Primaris Terminators means a chance at some form of the unit getting strong rules.
Lemondish wrote: That's super hilarious considering you've spent more energy than it would have taken to be clearer in your original post. If you're not willing to take the time to write what you actually mean, why should we take the time to decipher it?
If you're not going to take time to pay attention to what you're reading, why are you on a message board?
Seriously though, I don't get the idea that we need to constantly label opinions that are clearly opinions in a thread full of posts that are opinions. I mean, how much redundancy do we need exactly? At what point do we just stop padding our word count and assume that people who use this board are smart enough to recognize an opinion in a thread full of opinions and speculation?
Seems I draw that line sooner than others, but I'm okay with that. I'd rather not assume that people are too dumb to understand the obvious than the other way around.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Back on topic: Gravis does have one cue that matches current Terminators: the helmets. They have the same general shape as most Terminator helms.
It's not enough to make them work as Terminators though.
On a different note, do Terminator shoulder pads fit on Gravis models?
Start with the assumption that every post here is stating an opinion until proven otherwise, and you won't find yourself in the ridiculous position of starting arguments about demanding people change how they word their posts like some kind of bizarre, pointless tone police.
Start with the assumption that every post here is stating an opinion until proven otherwise, and you won't find yourself in the ridiculous position of starting arguments about demanding people change how they word their posts like some kind of bizarre, pointless tone police.
I never demanded anything, I merely suggested he be more clear.
I don't know. The Primaris so far seem to be going out of their way to not directly fill the role of non-Primaris Marines. Sure, they might have a little bit of overlap here and there, but they give me the impression they go about things from a different angle or approach as to not completely supplant the units they are similar to.
I would suppose we would see a more direct replacement to tactical marines before we see something that fully replaces terminators or centurions. Intercessors are close, but I think they would still need the tacticals' weapon flexibility before I would consider tacticals completely superfluous.
fraser1191 wrote: I guess it's worth asking what makes a Terminator other than a title?
2+ 5++ and the ability to deepstrike? It would have to be since loadout varies between factions
And breaking it down like that really downplays the armour...
Well there is a 2+/4++ variant too. The ability to drop in with a heavy weapon and power fists/chain fists/power weapon on every model while packing storm bolters (or combi bolters) is pretty iconic too.
It's a unit that (ideally) punches above it's weight in terms of volume of fire and potential melee output while weathering the damage coming back its way.
fraser1191 wrote: I guess it's worth asking what makes a Terminator other than a title?
The aesthetics, the customization options, and the statline.
I know the aesthetic difference between Aggressors and Terminators seem slight to some people, but to me as someone who's always liked terminators aesthetically, there's a pretty big difference. Hell, just the helmets alone... plus of course the strange partial dome feature that partially encapsulates the aggressors helmet looks odd, it'd look better honestly if it was a full dome with a slit on front or something. I'll grant it's probably pulled a little bit from the actual terminator model design, but it feels like an odd choice. Then there's the fact that every single aggressor has that weird launcher atop their head...
For customization options, aggressors only really have one choice. Their super-pistols, or flamethrowers. Terminators had not enough choice to be sure, but they could equip as a shooty squad that still had some punch, with a heavy weapon guy and a sarge with a power sword. Or they could go all-out on assault, and mix it up or go pure with claws or hammers/shields. Aggressors, in their current form, cannot replace my blood angels assault terminators-- perhaps you could make the argument they kind of sort of replace tactical terminators, I suppose, but they don't do it very well.
And for statline, the armor save does make a huge difference. Some people like to pretend armor is irrelevant this edition, but it's really not, especially since cover actually benefits terminators pretty massively against armor penetrating weapons (effectively nullifying any effect AP-1 weapons have).
fraser1191 wrote: I guess it's worth asking what makes a Terminator other than a title?
2+ 5++ and the ability to deepstrike? It would have to be since loadout varies between factions
And breaking it down like that really downplays the armour...
All you are doing there is describing the rules not the armour. There are many models in other factions with 2+5++, doesn't mean they are wearing terminator armour.
beyond just the 2+/5++ deep strike thing, for most there's what termies REPRESENT.
Terminators are the elite veterns of a chapter. those who have survived centuries of service and been permitted to wear a rare special type of armor that is even better then the kick ass normal power armor. and that is, a big part of their appeal.
BrianDavion wrote: beyond just the 2+/5++ deep strike thing, for most there's what termies REPRESENT.
Terminators are the elite veterns of a chapter. those who have survived centuries of service and been permitted to wear a rare special type of armor that is even better then the kick ass normal power armor. and that is, a big part of their appeal.
Their armour is also a big part of their appeal, ever since 2nd edition I've been obsessed with terminator armour. Gravis armour looks great, but its no substitute in my opinion.
fraser1191 wrote: I guess it's worth asking what makes a Terminator other than a title?
2+ 5++ and the ability to deepstrike? It would have to be since loadout varies between factions
And breaking it down like that really downplays the armour...
All you are doing there is describing the rules not the armour. There are many models in other factions with 2+5++, doesn't mean they are wearing terminator armour.
True. I love the lore for terminators but I don't think there's a realistic way to represent them that way on the table. And mechanically speaking seeing Primaris with these "abilities" isn't very far off.
Probably gonna end up with tactical Redemptor Armour
The Terminators (specifically the Assault Cannon one) and the Dreadnought in 2nd edition were what brought me into 40k from Battletech. The Terminator aesthetic is awesome.
So, Astartes are like Halo Spartan Spartans. So if Primaris marines are Space Marine Space Marines, then Primaris are Spartan Spartan Spartan Spartans. If Primaris in Terminator armor are like Primaris Primaris marines, then they are Astartes Astartes Astartes Astartes, or Spartan Spartan Spartan Spartan Spartan Spartan Spartan Spartans.
Ginjitzu wrote: I think we'll probably get more options for Aggressors before we ever see anything with both the Primaris and Terminator keywords. In fact, the limb I'm currently climbing out on is that we will never see a loyalist release with the word Terminator ever again.
Next year’s Adepticon model is a Librarian in Termie Armour
Interesting. I completely missed that. In that case, allow me to alter my stance. I still maintain that Terminators are not going to be resculpted to replace the ones that exist. I still believe that Aggressors are the replacements.
---
Spoiler:
ClockworkZion wrote:Gravis armour is definitely not replacing Terminator armour anytime soon.
Cool but when you state your opinion saying 'definitely' it gives the reader the impression that you know.
Unless someone is claiming to be a GWdev it's always an opinion. Claiming it to be presented as fact because I didn't start every sentence with "I think" or "in my opinion". This whole thread is nothing more than speculation and opinions.
Choose a better hill to make your stand on next time.
I'm not gaking on you or anything, but next time you can say 'most likely' rather than 'definitely'.
I'd rather assume a given level of common sense by readers than waste my time writing more just for the one person on the back who doesn't pay attention.
I have to agree with Delvarus here. You're misuse of the word "definitely" may be understandable to some, but to me, it sounded like a precursor to you presenting some strong evidence. Your statement would have more accurately conveyed your opinion if you'd simply left out that erroneous "definitely," so rather than "waste time" writing two words rather than one, you could in fact have saved time by writing one less word instead. Also, I think it's worth mentioning that there was nothing rude about Delvarus's suggestion. I don't think it was necessary to react as defensively and as rudely as you did.
Can we stop wasting time quibbling my writing habits and stay on topic? My word choice was intentional to convey the strength of mt opinion, not to state facts. Just move on with your life becausd I will not be changing my post.
Back on topic. Again. Honeslty, while I see mini Marines going away, iconic designs like Terminator armout maybe see tweaks (as technology has improved) but won't be going away. We may just not see it for a while as GW hasn't starting pulling that plug yet.
ClockworkZion wrote: Can we stop wasting time quibbling my writing habits and stay on topic? My word choice was intentional to convey the strength of mt opinion, not to state facts. Just move on with your life becausd I will not be changing my post.
Back on topic. Again. Honeslty, while I see mini Marines going away, iconic designs like Terminator armout maybe see tweaks (as technology has improved) but won't be going away. We may just not see it for a while as GW hasn't starting pulling that plug yet.
Do you not consider the tactical marine, or the assult marines iconic designs?
ClockworkZion wrote: Can we stop wasting time quibbling my writing habits and stay on topic? My word choice was intentional to convey the strength of mt opinion, not to state facts. Just move on with your life becausd I will not be changing my post.
Back on topic. Again. Honeslty, while I see mini Marines going away, iconic designs like Terminator armout maybe see tweaks (as technology has improved) but won't be going away. We may just not see it for a while as GW hasn't starting pulling that plug yet.
Do you not consider the tactical marine, or the assult marines iconic designs?
Which version of them?
Seriously though, excluding weapon loadouts, the Primaris Intercessor looks like a Tactical Marine in a different mark of armour.
We don't have all the Primaris options so we still have time to see.Assault varients. Probably in the Blood Angels first.
I think given that terminators exist and Custodes exist a primaris terminator would pretty much be too samesies. also of note with how recent the catifracti and tarteros kits are I doubt GW wants to see them dwindle down due to a primaris terminator kit. maybe in a few year. I believe based on kit age and rumours bikes are the next primaris splash. followed by a jet pack assault unit.
G00fySmiley wrote: I think given that terminators exist and Custodes exist a primaris terminator would pretty much be too samesies. also of note with how recent the catifracti and tarteros kits are I doubt GW wants to see them dwindle down due to a primaris terminator kit. maybe in a few year. I believe based on kit age and rumours bikes are the next primaris splash. followed by a jet pack assault unit.
IMHO Bikes seem a bit.. odd, given inceptors basicly fill the tactical role of bikes. at the same time Bikes have always been popular so I could see it happening. My guess will be lance equipped bikes. with a focus on melee rushes over the current ones which are kinda rangedish
Aesthetically Aggressors just are not teminatory enough. We need proper Primaris Terminators. The new plastic Custodes Terminators have great proportions, something like that except with the clean hi-tech look of the Primaris. Hammk has made a pretty damn awesome concept art for the thing.
Hammk's concept art is pretty much exactly what I would want Primaris terminators to look like. Sleek and kinda like graves armor with the new style of chest but still drawing heavily on the old design keeping some of the more noticable parts of the indomitus pattern suits like the rods running along the thighs and dog shaped helm.
G00fySmiley wrote:I believe based on kit age and rumours bikes are the next primaris splash. followed by a jet pack assault unit.
I really hope you're right. I think bikes aren't terribly unlikely, as they have an aesthetic that ought to be updated. My greatest fear is that as far as Games Workshop is concerned, Inceptors are that jet pack unit. I pray to the Emperor that's not the case, as Inceptors are completely repugnant to me.
I wonder about Aggressors: if not the same as Terminators, what exactly is the role that they are supposed to fill anyway?
AduroT wrote: I want Inceptors with dual Power Fists...
Gimme one with a Boltstorm Gauntlet and a Storm Shield.
Aggressor-style Boltstorm or the Gravis Captain pistol version?
Also, we won't get that until mini-marines get squatted because it would completely invalidate Vanguard Veterans and GW seems to be trying not to do that sort of thing.
I hate to admit it because I've defended the Repulsor a lot but I do sort of want a Razorback-style Primaris transport if they're not going to drop transport-segregation.
On the original topic, Aggressors are a 2+ away from being in basically Terminator design space against everything below AP 4, and there's really not a huge number of things floating around with AP 4. Why Aggressors aren't a 2+ instead of a 3+ is beyond me.
On the original topic, Aggressors are a 2+ away from being in basically Terminator design space against everything below AP 4, and there's really not a huge number of things floating around with AP 4. Why Aggressors aren't a 2+ instead of a 3+ is beyond me.
Maybe because they're covered in weapons that use explosive ammunition.
Some of them are carrying miniature Krak missiles in uncovered tubes on their chest. By rights they ought to occasionally explode from small arms fire setting off the exposed warheads.
Besides, bigger doesn't usually mean a better save. Look how much bigger a Redemptor is than a regular Dreadnaught; that's represented by 5 more wounds. Their armor values are exactly the same. A Storm Raven dwarfs both of them: same 3+. Heck, if I recall correctly Knights are a 3+.
When it comes to infantry, it actually kinda does. The progression of Flak Armor to Carapace Armor to Power Armor is due to increased coverage as well as increased quality. Carapace and Power Armor are bulkier, heavier armors and they provide additional protection BECAUSE of said bulk.
The Newman wrote: On the original topic, Aggressors are a 2+ away from being in basically Terminator design space against everything below AP 4, and there's really not a huge number of things floating around with AP 4. Why Aggressors aren't a 2+ instead of a 3+ is beyond me.
I actually think it's a result of Games Workshop trying to mollify concerns from the player base about Terminators getting squatted. If Aggressor's had just been given Terminator stats, I can just imagine the furor of players admonishing Games Workshop for "pushing their new models on players."
The Newman wrote: On the original topic, Aggressors are a 2+ away from being in basically Terminator design space against everything below AP 4, and there's really not a huge number of things floating around with AP 4. Why Aggressors aren't a 2+ instead of a 3+ is beyond me.
I actually think it's a result of Games Workshop trying to mollify concerns from the player base about Terminators getting squatted. If Aggressor's had just been given Terminator stats, I can just imagine the furor of players admonishing Games Workshop for "pushing their new models on players."
agressors also have a bit of a differant role from terminators. they're more akin to centurions then terminators.
BrianDavion wrote: agressors also have a bit of a differant role from terminators. they're more akin to centurions then terminators.
I've been wondering about that. What exactly is that role? Heavily armored weapons platform? Isn't that the same role as Terminators, but with less mobility and less defense? I'm struggling to figure out what Aggressors can do that Terminators can't.
BrianDavion wrote: agressors also have a bit of a differant role from terminators. they're more akin to centurions then terminators.
I've been wondering about that. What exactly is that role? Heavily armored weapons platform? Isn't that the same role as Terminators, but with less mobility and less defense? I'm struggling to figure out what Aggressors can do that Terminators can't.
Aggressors are more mobile than terminators. They ignore the penalty for advancing and firing assault weapons.
I'd say their role is horde clearing. Not much else you can do with S4 ap-
BrianDavion wrote: agressors also have a bit of a differant role from terminators. they're more akin to centurions then terminators.
I've been wondering about that. What exactly is that role? Heavily armored weapons platform? Isn't that the same role as Terminators, but with less mobility and less defense? I'm struggling to figure out what Aggressors can do that Terminators can't.
Aggressors are more mobile than terminators. They ignore the penalty for advancing and firing assault weapons.
I'd say their role is horde clearing. Not much else you can do with S4 ap-
A Terminator puts out 8 shots on the move now and an Aggressor puts out 9.5. An Aggressor is actually a lot less mobile if you want to get it's full potential shot volume.
Aggressors are simply the dumbest looking models, 2nd only to the Thunderwolf Sled abomination thing. It's like Hasboro was given production rights. It's a rockem Sockem robot.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Aggressors are simply the dumbest looking models, 2nd only to the Thunderwolf Sled abomination thing. It's like Hasboro was given production rights. It's a rockem Sockem robot.
So they're sillier looking than Centurions? I don't think that's possible.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Aggressors are simply the dumbest looking models, 2nd only to the Thunderwolf Sled abomination thing. It's like Hasboro was given production rights. It's a rockem Sockem robot.
So they're sillier looking than Centurions? I don't think that's possible.
I would say they are, a centurion suit atleast looks like it's built to take punishment while rocking heavy weapons, and aggressor just looks like he's been designed by a 5 year old, really powered ammo feed to an inbuilt drum mag?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Aggressors are simply the dumbest looking models, 2nd only to the Thunderwolf Sled abomination thing. It's like Hasboro was given production rights. It's a rockem Sockem robot.
So they're sillier looking than Centurions? I don't think that's possible.
I would say they are, a centurion suit atleast looks like it's built to take punishment while rocking heavy weapons, and aggressor just looks like he's been designed by a 5 year old, really powered ammo feed to an inbuilt drum mag?
I don’t know, I like the Juggernaut look of Aggressors. I’d prefer if they had a “heavier” sounding name, though, like “Destructors” or “Decimators” or something.
ClockworkZion wrote: You do know we've had belt fed plot weapons pretty much standard for a while right?
Spoiler:
Read carefully, I don't mind powerfed ammo systems, it's a powered belt fed into a drum magazine on the gauntlet that is WTF? It's having an ammo feed for a different ammo feed system it doesn't any make sense.
Like imagine that bolter weapon feed going into the scout heavybolter with its side ammo hopper, that's what aggressors have.
ClockworkZion wrote: You do know we've had belt fed plot weapons pretty much standard for a while right?
Spoiler:
Read carefully, I don't mind powerfed ammo systems, it's a powered belt fed into a drum magazine on the gauntlet that is WTF? It's having an ammo feed for a different ammo feed system it doesn't any make sense.
Like imagine that bolter weapon feed going into the scout heavybolter with its side ammo hopper, that's what aggressors have.
Meh, it doesn't bother me that much, but 40k has always had a "rule of cool" approach to things.
Hi! I'm a super-duper flimsy model that makes zero sense.
I ended up snapping off every belt to the hot shot weapons and just made them like the ones you can attach to back packs.
Wait....just remembered Suppressors....STAHP WITH BELT FED! IT MAKE A NO SENSE!
Belt fed makes perfect sense when you consider the weapons likely fire hundred of rounds a minute if under sustained fire.
Well, save for the Scions. That's clearly a larger power pack to compensate for how fast the hotshot would drain a regular power pack.
No, a high rate of fire does not make belt feeds make sense. Having an ammo box that would be entirely too cumbersome to actually attach to the weapon is what makes belt feeds make sense.
- The Heavy Bolter carried by a regular marine is attached to a gigantic ammo box, belt fed makes sense. - Suppressors have a tiny little ammo drum that's barely bigger than the belt's attachment point to the weapon, belt feed makes no sense.
Aggressors are a whole different story, those cables are either power feeds for the Fist (which most Power Fists have on them somewhere) or they're targetting links to feed the bolter's targetter to the Aggressor's HUD. Or both.
Hi! I'm a super-duper flimsy model that makes zero sense.
I ended up snapping off every belt to the hot shot weapons and just made them like the ones you can attach to back packs.
Wait....just remembered Suppressors....STAHP WITH BELT FED! IT MAKE A NO SENSE!
Belt fed makes perfect sense when you consider the weapons likely fire hundred of rounds a minute if under sustained fire.
Well, save for the Scions. That's clearly a larger power pack to compensate for how fast the hotshot would drain a regular power pack.
No, a high rate of fire does not make belt feeds make sense. Having an ammo box that would be entirely too cumbersome to actually attach to the weapon is what makes belt feeds make sense.
- The Heavy Bolter carried by a regular marine is attached to a gigantic ammo box, belt fed makes sense. - Suppressors have a tiny little ammo drum that's barely bigger than the belt's attachment point to the weapon, belt feed makes no sense.
Aggressors are a whole different story, those cables are either power feeds for the Fist (which most Power Fists have on them somewhere) or they're targetting links to feed the bolter's targetter to the Aggressor's HUD. Or both.
That would make sense, except the boltstorm one is square and tge flamestorm one is round, so clearly ment as ammo feeds.
Nothing says the Flamestorm and Boltstorm have to be using the cables for the same reasons or storing ammo in the same places, and there wouldn't be much point in feeding targetting data to the HUD from a flamer in the first place.
Hi! I'm a super-duper flimsy model that makes zero sense.
I ended up snapping off every belt to the hot shot weapons and just made them like the ones you can attach to back packs.
Wait....just remembered Suppressors....STAHP WITH BELT FED! IT MAKE A NO SENSE!
Belt fed makes perfect sense when you consider the weapons likely fire hundred of rounds a minute if under sustained fire.
Well, save for the Scions. That's clearly a larger power pack to compensate for how fast the hotshot would drain a regular power pack.
No, a high rate of fire does not make belt feeds make sense. Having an ammo box that would be entirely too cumbersome to actually attach to the weapon is what makes belt feeds make sense.
- The Heavy Bolter carried by a regular marine is attached to a gigantic ammo box, belt fed makes sense. - Suppressors have a tiny little ammo drum that's barely bigger than the belt's attachment point to the weapon, belt feed makes no sense.
Aggressors are a whole different story, those cables are either power feeds for the Fist (which most Power Fists have on them somewhere) or they're targetting links to feed the bolter's targetter to the Aggressor's HUD. Or both.
Except it does make sense when you remember it's easier to carry heavier loads on your back than on your wrist.
Hi! I'm a super-duper flimsy model that makes zero sense.
I ended up snapping off every belt to the hot shot weapons and just made them like the ones you can attach to back packs.
Wait....just remembered Suppressors....STAHP WITH BELT FED! IT MAKE A NO SENSE!
Belt fed makes perfect sense when you consider the weapons likely fire hundred of rounds a minute if under sustained fire.
Well, save for the Scions. That's clearly a larger power pack to compensate for how fast the hotshot would drain a regular power pack.
No, a high rate of fire does not make belt feeds make sense. Having an ammo box that would be entirely too cumbersome to actually attach to the weapon is what makes belt feeds make sense.
- The Heavy Bolter carried by a regular marine is attached to a gigantic ammo box, belt fed makes sense. - Suppressors have a tiny little ammo drum that's barely bigger than the belt's attachment point to the weapon, belt feed makes no sense.
Aggressors are a whole different story, those cables are either power feeds for the Fist (which most Power Fists have on them somewhere) or they're targetting links to feed the bolter's targetter to the Aggressor's HUD. Or both.
Except it does make sense when you remember it's easier to carry heavier loads on your back than on your wrist.
The gauntlets are on their forearms like a late-period shield, not on their wrists. And also built into their power armor, the Primaris in question might be carrying only a fraction of the weight of that gun.
Hi! I'm a super-duper flimsy model that makes zero sense.
I ended up snapping off every belt to the hot shot weapons and just made them like the ones you can attach to back packs.
Wait....just remembered Suppressors....STAHP WITH BELT FED! IT MAKE A NO SENSE!
Belt fed makes perfect sense when you consider the weapons likely fire hundred of rounds a minute if under sustained fire.
Well, save for the Scions. That's clearly a larger power pack to compensate for how fast the hotshot would drain a regular power pack.
No, a high rate of fire does not make belt feeds make sense. Having an ammo box that would be entirely too cumbersome to actually attach to the weapon is what makes belt feeds make sense.
- The Heavy Bolter carried by a regular marine is attached to a gigantic ammo box, belt fed makes sense. - Suppressors have a tiny little ammo drum that's barely bigger than the belt's attachment point to the weapon, belt feed makes no sense.
Aggressors are a whole different story, those cables are either power feeds for the Fist (which most Power Fists have on them somewhere) or they're targetting links to feed the bolter's targetter to the Aggressor's HUD. Or both.
Except it does make sense when you remember it's easier to carry heavier loads on your back than on your wrist.
The gauntlets are on their forearms like a late-period shield, not on their wrists. And also built into their power armor, the Primaris in question might be carrying only a fraction of the weight of that gun.
You want weight as close to your center of mass as possible for stability. Thousands of rounds are going to be heavy, so you want that on your back where it's more stable and it centered more over your legs for better support than straining the arms with the full weight.
Even if the Primaris himself isn't supporting the weight, the armour has to and straining the shoulder servos/muscle fibers/whatever is still not good design.
BrianDavion wrote: agressors also have a bit of a differant role from terminators. they're more akin to centurions then terminators.
I've been wondering about that. What exactly is that role? Heavily armored weapons platform? Isn't that the same role as Terminators, but with less mobility and less defense? I'm struggling to figure out what Aggressors can do that Terminators can't.
Aggressors are more mobile than terminators. They ignore the penalty for advancing and firing assault weapons.
I'd say their role is horde clearing. Not much else you can do with S4 ap-
A Terminator puts out 8 shots on the move now and an Aggressor puts out 9.5. An Aggressor is actually a lot less mobile if you want to get it's full potential shot volume.
BrianDavion wrote: agressors also have a bit of a differant role from terminators. they're more akin to centurions then terminators.
I've been wondering about that. What exactly is that role? Heavily armored weapons platform? Isn't that the same role as Terminators, but with less mobility and less defense? I'm struggling to figure out what Aggressors can do that Terminators can't.
Aggressors are more mobile than terminators. They ignore the penalty for advancing and firing assault weapons.
I'd say their role is horde clearing. Not much else you can do with S4 ap-
A Terminator puts out 8 shots on the move now and an Aggressor puts out 9.5. An Aggressor is actually a lot less mobile if you want to get it's full potential shot volume.
Terminators still only have 4 shots.
Then I guess it's a good thing I forgot to bring that one up when I was complaining about mis-pointed models in the feedback survey.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Aggressors are simply the dumbest looking models, 2nd only to the Thunderwolf Sled abomination thing. It's like Hasboro was given production rights. It's a rockem Sockem robot.
So they're sillier looking than Centurions? I don't think that's possible.
Agreed. Aggressors and Centurions are trash from an aesthetic viewpoint. GW should fire their artistic head designer.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Aggressors are simply the dumbest looking models, 2nd only to the Thunderwolf Sled abomination thing. It's like Hasboro was given production rights. It's a rockem Sockem robot.
So they're sillier looking than Centurions? I don't think that's possible.
Agreed. Aggressors and Centurions are trash from an aesthetic viewpoint. GW should fire their artistic head designer.
Jes Goodwin should be fired? I don't think I heard a worse take.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Aggressors are simply the dumbest looking models, 2nd only to the Thunderwolf Sled abomination thing. It's like Hasboro was given production rights. It's a rockem Sockem robot.
So they're sillier looking than Centurions? I don't think that's possible.
Agreed. Aggressors and Centurions are trash from an aesthetic viewpoint. GW should fire their artistic head designer.
Why not just fire the ones that work on "large Space Marine infantry"? It seems like a waste to axe the whole department based on two f***ups that came out of one corner of the workshop.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Aggressors are simply the dumbest looking models, 2nd only to the Thunderwolf Sled abomination thing. It's like Hasboro was given production rights. It's a rockem Sockem robot.
So they're sillier looking than Centurions? I don't think that's possible.
Agreed. Aggressors and Centurions are trash from an aesthetic viewpoint. GW should fire their artistic head designer.
Why not just fire the ones that work on "large Space Marine infantry"? It seems like a waste to axe the whole department based on two f***ups that came out of one corner of the workshop.
yet for every person who dislikes them, someone might like them I dislike them is a pretty poor reason to advocate someone's firing. I'm not a fan of the Tau Aestetic, I just don't buy Tau
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Aggressors are simply the dumbest looking models, 2nd only to the Thunderwolf Sled abomination thing. It's like Hasboro was given production rights. It's a rockem Sockem robot.
So they're sillier looking than Centurions? I don't think that's possible.
Agreed. Aggressors and Centurions are trash from an aesthetic viewpoint. GW should fire their artistic head designer.
Why not just fire the ones that work on "large Space Marine infantry"? It seems like a waste to axe the whole department based on two f***ups that came out of one corner of the workshop.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Aggressors are simply the dumbest looking models, 2nd only to the Thunderwolf Sled abomination thing. It's like Hasboro was given production rights. It's a rockem Sockem robot.
So they're sillier looking than Centurions? I don't think that's possible.
Agreed. Aggressors and Centurions are trash from an aesthetic viewpoint. GW should fire their artistic head designer.
Disagreed. Centurions are my favorite model in the entire Space Marine line. Aggressors are up there. GW should make more models based on those chassis.
BrianDavion wrote: agressors also have a bit of a differant role from terminators. they're more akin to centurions then terminators.
I've been wondering about that. What exactly is that role? Heavily armored weapons platform? Isn't that the same role as Terminators, but with less mobility and less defense? I'm struggling to figure out what Aggressors can do that Terminators can't.
Aggressors are more mobile than terminators. They ignore the penalty for advancing and firing assault weapons.
I'd say their role is horde clearing. Not much else you can do with S4 ap-
A Terminator puts out 8 shots on the move now and an Aggressor puts out 9.5. An Aggressor is actually a lot less mobile if you want to get it's full potential shot volume.
I was actually referring to their lack of teleport being the main hindrance to their mobility. I'm not actually sure how they stack up while footslogging.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:Aggressors are simply the dumbest looking models, 2nd only to the Thunderwolf Sled abomination thing. It's like Hasboro was given production rights. It's a rockem Sockem robot.
I like them. In fact, I think I may even prefer them to Terminators, because their shoulder and head positions seem a lot more anatomically viable. My only real issue is with the weapon placement on their gauntlets. It bugs me that they are on the bottom of the hand, because I can't help but envision that when they strike down in combat, it will actually be the gun that hits rather than the gauntlet.
I think that with the Primaris update they should clarify the role of the Terminators. Make sure that they function well as super tough monster killers. I really want them to finally to be formidable again (last time this happened was in the second edition...) They should be the guys who deal with the biggest, scariest alien monsters, giant robots etc. Leave the chaff clearing to other units.
With the Primaris version there is no need to be stuck to the old loadouts or profiles. Give the shooty variants some sort of hard-hitting melta or plasma weapon as their basic gun. Give them S and T 5, and let them hit with power fists without penalty.
Crimson wrote: I think that with the Primaris update they should clarify the role of the Terminators. Make sure that they function well as super tough monster killers. I really want them to finally to be formidable again (last time this happened was in the second edition...) The should be the guys who deal with the biggest, scariest alien monsters, giant robots etc. Leave the chaff clearing to other units.
With the Primaris version there is no need to be stuck to the old loadouts or profiles. Give the shooty variants some sort of hard-hitting melta or plasma weapon as their basic gun. Give them S and T 5, and let them hit with power fists without penalty.
This very, very much!
A primaris "terminator" should be something like this:
M6 S5 T5 BS2+ WS2+ A4 W3 SAVE2++ INVULN 5+
Gravis Dreadnought Armour: Reduces ap of weapons firing at a model with this armour to -1
Battering Assault: Models with this rule gain the ability to charge after advancing.
Stalwart Defenders: Models with this rule gain +1 attack if model has been charged this turn or in combat.
Teleport
then normal gravis rules.
Then give them access to anything already equipped on Gravis models and give them TH/SS & "meltablaster". Allow them to split fire/fire all weapons.
This should get them somewhere near where they need to be. Not to invalidate Cataphrachtii, Tartaros, & TDA, they should get most of the same rules.
The other side of this is embodied in the Attack Bike vs Inceptor calculation. Very, very similar profiles, Fly vs an extra 2" movement, 4 wounds vs Deep Strike for safety, 6 Assault Bolter shots vs 4 Bolt Gun shots and 3 Heavy Bolter shots with longer range at the expense of move-and-fire penalties. The Inceptor is 8 more points, 10 if comparing the Plasma / Multimelta options.
The Inceptor is probably more than 8 points better than an Attack Bike thanks to Deep Strike, but the bike squad starts at 37 points for one instead of 125 points for three and also has the advantage of flexibility (you can upgrade just one bike to the Multimelta instead of having to upgrade the whole squad).
It would be really easy for one of those options to just invalidate the other. We see that all the time, things like the Bolt Rifle/Stalker/Autobolter 'options' where one of them is always the right choice. If GW does release a Primaris Terminator the odds favor them being either flat better or flat worse than traditional Termies by enough for one or the other to be worthless afterward.
I don't think that necessarily matters though. If the new ones are good rules wise but look terrible, then just proxy in the original models. If the models are good (for me that would mean like current terminator but better proportions) and rules terrible, then just use the current terminator rules but have models that would first better with the newer better proportioned aesthetic.
Flinty wrote: I don't think that necessarily matters though. If the new ones are good rules wise but look terrible, then just proxy in the original models. If the models are good (for me that would mean like current terminator but better proportions) and rules terrible, then just use the current terminator rules but have models that would first better with the newer better proportioned aesthetic.
And I think releasing a unit that completely invalidates another unit* is bad business. We might just have to disagree on that point.
* - Or that is completely invalidated by an existing unit for that matter.
I like primaris... but I want both a stop to their expansion in lore and on the table top. Need to find out that they burn out after 100 years or that they require a cripplingly high-calorie diet to function or that they degrade into a death-company like state when recovering from grievous wounds... something to cap them out.
I'd like to see them become the Immortals/Praetorians of the Space Marine line... not a replacement for standard marine (necrons still have a strong placre for warriors)
Lobukia wrote: I like primaris... but I want both a stop to their expansion in lore and on the table top. Need to find out that they burn out after 100 years or that they require a cripplingly high-calorie diet to function or that they degrade into a death-company like state when recovering from grievous wounds... something to cap them out.
I'd like to see them become the Immortals/Praetorians of the Space Marine line... not a replacement for standard marine (necrons still have a strong placre for warriors)
Why? Primaris are just marines with clean geneseed, two extra organs, and a bionic muscle enhancer. Why does that need a downside?
Martel732 wrote: Grimdark is very 90s. It's run its course. It's a parody of itself at this point.
Agreed. Grimdark just feels grimderp to me now. I'm 100% ok with the setting having a bit of hope in it. It makes the atrocities all the more tragic by contrast.
Martel732 wrote: Grimdark is very 90s. It's run its course. It's a parody of itself at this point.
Agreed. Grimdark just feels grimderp to me now. I'm 100% ok with the setting having a bit of hope in it. It makes the atrocities all the more tragic by contrast.
And if they move away from grimderp to grimdark, people will complain that its becoming noblebright. There is no pleasing some people. Personally I think the setting had got too grimderp. There needs to be some good to contrast the bad.
With the Primaris version there is no need to be stuck to the old loadouts or profiles. Give the shooty variants some sort of hard-hitting melta or plasma weapon as their basic gun. Give them S and T 5, and let them hit with power fists without penalty.
This very, very much!
A primaris "terminator" should be something like this:
M6 S5 T5 BS2+ WS2+ A4 W3 SAVE2++ INVULN 5+
Gravis Dreadnought Armour: Reduces ap of weapons firing at a model with this armour to -1
Battering Assault: Models with this rule gain the ability to charge after advancing.
Stalwart Defenders: Models with this rule gain +1 attack if model has been charged this turn or in combat.
Teleport
then normal gravis rules.
Then give them access to anything already equipped on Gravis models and give them TH/SS & "meltablaster". Allow them to split fire/fire all weapons.
This should get them somewhere near where they need to be. Not to invalidate Cataphrachtii, Tartaros, & TDA, they should get most of the same rules.
how much would they cost though. They are superior in every way to paladins and custodes, specialy with 4+1 attacks, and the anti ap rule. so 70-80pts per one?
Agreed. Grimdark just feels grimderp to me now. I'm 100% ok with the setting having a bit of hope in it. It makes the atrocities all the more tragic by contrast.
Stuff becomes tragic only if it doesn't make any sense at all. Hope in the w40k setting makes no sense to begin with. What it is the hope for, to get harvested by tyranids, instead of chaos or necron, or sacrificed by eldar for their own goals, sometimes litteraly get sacrificed by them.
With the Primaris version there is no need to be stuck to the old loadouts or profiles. Give the shooty variants some sort of hard-hitting melta or plasma weapon as their basic gun. Give them S and T 5, and let them hit with power fists without penalty.
This very, very much!
A primaris "terminator" should be something like this:
M6 S5 T5 BS2+ WS2+ A4 W3 SAVE2++ INVULN 5+
Gravis Dreadnought Armour: Reduces ap of weapons firing at a model with this armour to -1
Battering Assault: Models with this rule gain the ability to charge after advancing.
Stalwart Defenders: Models with this rule gain +1 attack if model has been charged this turn or in combat.
Teleport
then normal gravis rules.
Then give them access to anything already equipped on Gravis models and give them TH/SS & "meltablaster". Allow them to split fire/fire all weapons.
This should get them somewhere near where they need to be. Not to invalidate Cataphrachtii, Tartaros, & TDA, they should get most of the same rules.
Am not sure they should have termintors to begin with. But as an example a GK paladin costs 53pts for a dude with a pair of falchions. He has 3A+1A, and a SB. and the baby smite on the unit.
If the primaris were to run around with the rules proposed here, specialy a mix of storm shields and plasma/melta weapons, they would be really good in a pointless game. ++3, -1 to rend for small weapon fire. they would have deep strike and access to all the chapter tactics, and re-rolls a normal marine army can get. No idea how much they should cost, but +1, better save and plasma/melta as basic weapon on top of a TH/SS would sure make them cost more then 53pts.
Lobukia wrote: I like primaris... but I want both a stop to their expansion in lore and on the table top. Need to find out that they burn out after 100 years or that they require a cripplingly high-calorie diet to function or that they degrade into a death-company like state when recovering from grievous wounds... something to cap them out.
I'd like to see them become the Immortals/Praetorians of the Space Marine line... not a replacement for standard marine (necrons still have a strong place for warriors)
Why? Primaris are just marines with clean geneseed, two extra organs, and a bionic muscle enhancer. Why does that need a downside?
all upside is just boring. Feels like a 15 year old's fan fic enough already "uh RG wakes up and meets a long lost Mary Sue Friend(s) who heal him, give him better marines than the Emperor had, and Custodes for everyone, and he's the Imperial Regent now, and they have hover vehicles... and..." ugh stop. Downsides are great for balance (in both a narrative sense and a table top sense). Again, I like the Primaris Marines. I have a company+ painted up for my Ultramarines. But there's only so much old lore that needs to be invalidated and so much melbatoast "MOAR MAREENS" that I like seeing out there diluted by Marines++. Right now they are an unlimited resource. Keeping a few battlefield roles away from them and few capabilities untapped is just good game design and I hope restraint is used with the Primaris line. Terminators and 2+ armor would be a great place to see the "old marines" hold the line
Lobukia wrote: I like primaris... but I want both a stop to their expansion in lore and on the table top. Need to find out that they burn out after 100 years or that they require a cripplingly high-calorie diet to function or that they degrade into a death-company like state when recovering from grievous wounds... something to cap them out.
I'd like to see them become the Immortals/Praetorians of the Space Marine line... not a replacement for standard marine (necrons still have a strong place for warriors)
Why? Primaris are just marines with clean geneseed, two extra organs, and a bionic muscle enhancer. Why does that need a downside?
all upside is just boring. Feels like a 15 year old's fan fic enough already
But that's how technology works at times. Consider HMS Dreadnought. When she was launched in 1906 she instantly rendered all existing battleships in the world obsolete, hence why naval historians talk about "pre-Dreadnoughts" and why we have the word "dreadnought" taking on the same connotations as the Biblical Juggernaut, something large, powerful and nearly impossible to stop.
Is the real-life HMS Dreadnought a Mary Sue just because it succeeded really well in doing what it set out to do?
Lobukia wrote: I like primaris... but I want both a stop to their expansion in lore and on the table top. Need to find out that they burn out after 100 years or that they require a cripplingly high-calorie diet to function or that they degrade into a death-company like state when recovering from grievous wounds... something to cap them out.
I'd like to see them become the Immortals/Praetorians of the Space Marine line... not a replacement for standard marine (necrons still have a strong place for warriors)
Why? Primaris are just marines with clean geneseed, two extra organs, and a bionic muscle enhancer. Why does that need a downside?
all upside is just boring. Feels like a 15 year old's fan fic enough already
But that's how technology works at times. Consider HMS Dreadnought. When she was launched in 1906 she instantly rendered all existing battleships in the world obsolete, hence why naval historians talk about "pre-Dreadnoughts" and why we have the word "dreadnought" taking on the same connotations as the Biblical Juggernaut, something large, powerful and nearly impossible to stop.
Is the real-life HMS Dreadnought a Mary Sue just because it succeeded really well in doing what it set out to do?
Real life doesn't always make interesting fiction or gameplay. 40k is a setting first and foremost (GW forgets this constantly) with the core themes of the setting being this medieval inspired "dark age" of sorts set in the far future where everything is regressing, people have backwards views on science, and innovation is answered with cries of heresy. The IoM is a shadow of it's former self in a constant state of danger, decay, and desperate struggle to maintain what it can (like the failing Roman Empire). To top it off we also have these Tolkeen type races (plus a few others) IN SPAAACCCEEE with their own grimdark twist on the fantasy tropes.
Cue The Gathering Storm. This collection of books set out to completely gak all over the setting and everything it's about. The return of Rowboat and the "I was working on this gak for thousands of years" creations of Cawl. The return of the boat is in part due to the interference of the Eldar's "definitely not a chaos god" god of the dead (a god who feeds off death, including yours, is somehow suppose to save your race from being devoured by slaanesh? Sounds like borrowing from Peter to pay Paul). Outside the Eldar hosing themselves, the entire turn of events would make even the most radical of Inquisitors think that things are getting a bit too heretical. The bad part is that in the lore, nobody is crying heresy, everyone is ok with this turn of events, and we aren't seeing major internal conflicts erupt over this radical departure from the norms of the IoM.
Rambling rant aside the new fluff and direction of the narrative is flying in the face of the established lore while it damages the tone and theme of the setting. This isn't a setting that fits the narrative of making super soldiers +1 to replace our super soldiers +0. 40k is about how that really powerful weapon stopped working 2,000 years ago because we lost means to repair it 3,000 years ago and we lost the only forgeworld that had the schematics to make the thing 8,000 years ago. It's not that the Primaris are Mary Sue's so much as they strongly contrast the background setting the exist in. New tech, new and improved marines, new weapons, new armor, new new new in a setting where the only thing new is the ways a dark eldar will torture you, an evolution of a Tyranid, or a piece of Tau tech (new to the Tau, probably discovered and forgotten by the other races long ago). It's this contrast that makes the Primaris feel so out of place to some of us and feels like the setting is losing what made it so interesting. Feels like changes made to sell plastic models and it comes at the cost that corrodes 40k's rich and interesting setting.
But the Dark Age was more political. Technology really didn't go backwards. The stirrup was invented just before the Battle of Tours, for example.
40K using demons and an all-knowing inquisition to halt technological progress on thousands of planets is one of the most suspension of disbelief busting things.
Progress can't be halted. Not by the Emperor. Not by the Warp. Not by Chaos. Not by the Admech. The power of science is that its repeatable and consistent.
Martel732 wrote: But the Dark Age was more political. Technology really didn't go backwards. The stirrup was invented just before the Battle of Tours, for example.
40K using demons and an all-knowing inquisition to halt technological progress on thousands of planets is one of the most suspension of disbelief busting things.
Progress can't be halted. Not by the Emperor. Not by the Warp. Not by Chaos. Not by the Admech. The power of science is that its repeatable and consistent.
As a history professor, I'll leave the anachronistic Chinese stirrup countering the backward slide of agriculture, health care, literacy, personal freedoms, record keeping, travel, cross culture trade, organized communities, education, civil defense, etc. alone. A late 2nd century Roman would be horrified at 10th century Europe, and its supposed to be the calm of the storm of the "Dark Ages"
There are innumerable moments of both intentional and incidental cultural and technological decline in human history. But again... that's not the point. The point is that the Primaris marines working flawlessly and as a superior platform means that Crawl and RG have outdone the Emperor and the Unification geneticists, and all of the Age of Progress and at some level the Old Ones and many alien technocrats from their garage lab (equivalent). Step forward and the end of the downward slide... sure... using your Martel (lol your name too, I see your connection Tours) example, rocket jumping from Franks to Columbus from 2 guys is just silly and too lore disruptive... attempting to do it and it backfires... now that's 40k
I don't pay that much attention to the lore, so it doesn't bother me that much. The "story" is arbitrary so it can continuously support the sale of plastic.
Martel732 wrote: I don't pay that much attention to the lore, so it doesn't bother me that much. The "story" is arbitrary so it can continuously support the sale of plastic.
Fair enough. To me, and at least a good number of the other players, we've read a good chunk of the 700+ published stories (large and small, novels and magazine articles) and when something that's front and center (not just some outlier novella) is nonsensical to the established lore, that becomes problematic. When new units threaten to not enrich an established line but to instead remove more and more core units from either play or playability, that's problematic. Most don't mind a new type of unit becoming strong and don't mind a change or advancement in the lore... its just when it goes way too far, way too fast, that we start to ask for some restraint.
Martel732 wrote: I don't pay that much attention to the lore, so it doesn't bother me that much. The "story" is arbitrary so it can continuously support the sale of plastic.
Fair enough. To me, and at least a good number of the other players, we've read a good chunk of the 700+ published stories (large and small, novels and magazine articles) and when something that's front and center (not just some outlier novella) is nonsensical to the established lore, that becomes problematic. When new units threaten to not enrich an established line but to instead remove more and more core units from either play or playability, that's problematic. Most don't mind a new type of unit becoming strong and don't mind a change or advancement in the lore... its just when it goes way too far, way too fast, that we start to ask for some restraint.
The good news is that, despite them not receiving near enough credit for it, the introduction of Primaris from a crunch perspective is an amazing example of restraint from GW. They are not the clearly better in all ways marine the stories suggest - not for how few jobs they can achieve or how few of them you can physically field.
As such, it's hardly likely a new 'Primaris Terminator' unit will be just fine as a side grade from current Terminators.
Though if I were to put forward one of my biggest wishes...despite being an unabashed Primaris model fan boy (I love the aesthetic and the sculpts are beautiful), I would be extremely excited to see a new set of Indomitus Pattern standard Astartes units complete with proper proportions and anatomy.
The good news is that, despite them not receiving near enough credit for it, the introduction of Primaris from a crunch perspective is an amazing example of restraint from GW. They are not the clearly better in all ways marine the stories suggest - not for how few jobs they can achieve or how few of them you can physically field.
I would be extremely excited to see a new set of Indomitus Pattern standard Astartes units complete with proper proportions and anatomy.
Agreed on all accounts here. From a tabletop POV: I am very happy and pleased with the Primaris introduction, so far, if I knew it would stop. But, to me, the lore changes really herald a "MOAR MOAR" path for the Primaris.
There's a great story to be had here with some sort of fundamental problem being found with Primaris line, some chapters refusing to further use it. and the internal politics and rivalries of the IoM being turned up to 11.... and those old PA units have a good place in the game
I'm pretty sure the primaris marines are more resource intensive to bring up, and require more specialized equipment (the new power armor model) that can't necessarily be manufactured in a lot of places, and that's their downside and also why they aren't replacing all non-primaris marines. And that's enough of a downside as far as I'm concerned. I'm tired of everything being "but then chaos/xenos touched it and now it sucks". That's just dull and uninteresting. In fact it's kinda more interesting that it's NOT broken and flawed, it's just expensive and unrealistic to replace all standard marines with.
Melissia wrote: I'm pretty sure the primaris marines are more resource intensive to bring up, and require more specialized equipment (the new power armor model) that can't necessarily be manufactured in a lot of places, and that's their downside and also why they aren't replacing all non-primaris marines. And that's enough of a downside as far as I'm concerned. I'm tired of everything being "but then chaos/xenos touched it and now it sucks". That's just dull and uninteresting. In fact it's kinda more interesting that it's NOT broken and flawed, it's just expensive and unrealistic to replace all standard marines with.
If anything, the fiction seems to imply Primaris are easier to make. Due to the geneseed being cleaner, they take a wider variety of humans as aspirants with a lower failure rate. There won't be any reason for scout squads anymore essentially.
That doesn't mean existing marines are being . . . terminated. Seriously Primaris marines (in lore), are just marines who are a little taller and have 2 extra organs and a bionic enhancement. The only thing I can see being any sort of problem for the existing marines, is whether or not THEIR geneseed will be required anymore. Because the chapters have built that up to be a legacy thing within their institutional culture and they'll all find it really depressing (most likely) if their geneseed isn't going to be used anymore.
So, in a sheer points/statline perspective, what would a Primaris Terminator look like? Because we already have them, and they are called Custodes. From a stat line perspective.
S/T 5, 3 wounds, BS/WS 3+? So basically weaker Custodes? Now about the points, would 55-65pts per Primaris Terminator be worth it?
I don't want to see more gap filler units. Right now, SMs have Scouts, Tacs, Primaris, Regular Terminators, SuperTerminators, Jump pack terminators, Sneaky terminators, what more variation do you need? What would the purpose of PRimaris Terminators even be? For the same cost you can do better and just go Custodes.
Melissia wrote: I'm pretty sure the primaris marines are more resource intensive to bring up, and require more specialized equipment (the new power armor model) that can't necessarily be manufactured in a lot of places, and that's their downside and also why they aren't replacing all non-primaris marines. And that's enough of a downside as far as I'm concerned. I'm tired of everything being "but then chaos/xenos touched it and now it sucks". That's just dull and uninteresting. In fact it's kinda more interesting that it's NOT broken and flawed, it's just expensive and unrealistic to replace all standard marines with.
If anything, the fiction seems to imply Primaris are easier to make. Due to the geneseed being cleaner, they take a wider variety of humans as aspirants with a lower failure rate. There won't be any reason for scout squads anymore essentially.
That doesn't mean existing marines are being . . . terminated. Seriously Primaris marines (in lore), are just marines who are a little taller and have 2 extra organs and a bionic enhancement. The only thing I can see being any sort of problem for the existing marines, is whether or not THEIR geneseed will be required anymore. Because the chapters have built that up to be a legacy thing within their institutional culture and they'll all find it really depressing (most likely) if their geneseed isn't going to be used anymore.
Primaris have faster growth, they come up complete as far as we know, like the Corax Marines.
Role wise, the Vanguard formations completely replace the scouts.
Primaris have faster growth, they come up complete as far as we know, like the Corax Marines.
Role wise, the Vanguard formations completely replace the scouts.
your data for the faster growth is? I've not heard that
Nothing is stated in the codex about Primaris having faster growth or scouts getting phased out as far as I can find. Is this headcannon or internet meme? It doesn't help that most of the times Primaris are mentioned they are the ones whom Cawl created while RG was in stasis. It might come from peoples anxiety about the potential that Primaris will replace the "normal" Space Marines
I seem to recall - apologies I can't find where - that the last few implants where during there service as a scout. I assume that new Primaris are created in the same way with the new organs implanted at certain stages rather than at the end (maybe that is why it is riskier for existing Space Marines). This is speculation however.
Onto Terminators. Maybe Terminator Armour is found out to be modifiable enough to fit Primaris?
Tbh I'm pretty salty that chaos terminators got primarified while my deathwing will most likely forever remain munchkins in favor of the primaris termies
redboi wrote:Tbh I'm pretty salty that chaos terminators got primarified while my deathwing will most likely forever remain munchkins in favor of the primaris termies
This
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:I don't want to see more gap filler units. Right now, SMs have Scouts, Tacs, Primaris, Regular Terminators, SuperTerminators, Jump pack terminators, Sneaky terminators, what more variation do you need? What would the purpose of PRimaris Terminators even be? For the same cost you can do better and just go Custodes.
This too
Some gaps, some diversity, some pause to replacing good models and good units with linear +1s
Lobukia wrote: I like primaris... but I want both a stop to their expansion in lore and on the table top. Need to find out that they burn out after 100 years or that they require a cripplingly high-calorie diet to function or that they degrade into a death-company like state when recovering from grievous wounds... something to cap them out.
I'd like to see them become the Immortals/Praetorians of the Space Marine line... not a replacement for standard marine (necrons still have a strong place for warriors)
Why? Primaris are just marines with clean geneseed, two extra organs, and a bionic muscle enhancer. Why does that need a downside?
all upside is just boring. Feels like a 15 year old's fan fic enough already "uh RG wakes up and meets a long lost Mary Sue Friend(s) who heal him, give him better marines than the Emperor had, and Custodes for everyone, and he's the Imperial Regent now, and they have hover vehicles... and..." ugh stop. Downsides are great for balance (in both a narrative sense and a table top sense). Again, I like the Primaris Marines. I have a company+ painted up for my Ultramarines. But there's only so much old lore that needs to be invalidated and so much melbatoast "MOAR MAREENS" that I like seeing out there diluted by Marines++. Right now they are an unlimited resource. Keeping a few battlefield roles away from them and few capabilities untapped is just good game design and I hope restraint is used with the Primaris line. Terminators and 2+ armor would be a great place to see the "old marines" hold the line
I'm expecting at least the Lion, Russ, Perturabo, and Fulgrim to be making appearances soon, with a Primaris Rubicon upgrade to Azrael, Logan, and Dante (Though for narrative purposes I wouldn't be surprised to hear Dante dies during the procedure, and they get a new Primaris Chapter Master that works similar to and can't coexist with Dante.
Mortarion, Magnus and Gulliman exist (in the model range). Calgar just underwent a Primaris conversion. (Something that made me laugh at the shoulderpad with terminator honors in the Primaris marine boxed sets - I believe Calgar could be the only Primaris to have worn the armor). I'ts a matter of time until they give the other chapters, especially those divergent enough to get their own codex a return of their Primarch, and a Primarisation of their Chapter Master. After that, I'd expect to see all the other chapters (except for two) get their Primarch back, and the loyalist chapter masters get a Primarisation.
We might not see Horus. But I wouldn't bet on it. Money plus Heresy Part Two as a post Vigilus narrative make it attractive. I'm sure they're looking at 30K and holding meetings.
Dorn, Curze, Sanguinius, Horus, Manus and potentially Alpharius Omegon are "dead". Many of those are assumed dead with JFK level conspiracy theories. Dorn, and Alpharius are the easiest to resurrect because of that. Sanguinius and Horus are next easiest. Fabius Bile has been trying to clone Horus for years. Theories about Sanguinius and the Sanguinor are numerous. (Some of my favorites are that a 7 foot tall space marine was a body double for a 12 foot tall winged Primarch who didn't object when the other candidates (he thought of as his own sons) for the job were murdered to hide which candidate won the job) The only ones who would really need magic plot armor coming from nowhere would be Curze and Manus. Some chapters don't have a Primarch Special character at all and so could use the generic Primaris Chapter Master entry like they did with the generic Chapter Master/Captain entry before. Assuming they don't do another 180 and kill off the remaining Primarchs.
Also, I think it's worth mentioning that there was nothing rude about Delvarus's suggestion. I don't think it was necessary to react as defensively and as rudely as you did.
