Not sure if this is the best home for this thread but hey ho and away we go.
So I've been reading up on some of the early background articles on the process behind which SM are converted from aspiring youngsters to one of the Emperor's finest death dealers and it occured to me that giving power armour to SM seems like a waste resources. Granted when it comes to void fighting, clearing space hulks etc it makes some sense and there's an argument for putting the Emp's finest inside the best armour the Imperium can muster to keep them safe, but given the nature of the process it does seem like a waste. You give them the ability to breathe poisonous atmosphere, but then put them in a suit with a rebreather. You go to great lengths to harden their skin and engineer them both chemically and materially to be much stronger, faster and more hardy than the average human, but then you put them inside a suit that needs a power pack and a neural interface to work properly.
It just seems very odd. Surely you'd get more mileage out of just having Space Marines fight without their power armour, and give the power armour to soldiers who are brave/intelligent/cunning etc, but physically a little weak? Or alternatively, just not bother with a bunch of the SM organs to speed up the process and reduce the failure rate among aspirants? I can see some of the arguments for combining the two but it just seems a little inefficient.
Pure logic is not the best way to approach the 40k universe (or indeed any universe )
But there are some in universe "reasons"
Flak armour is not the only armour available for non Marines - even ignoring Sisters of Battle and Silence who both use power armour in thew ay you suggest, many Imperial Guard regiments have much better than Flak, it can laser reflective, light powered - there are even some steampunk battlesuit users.
Marines suffer little degredation of ability even with a armour breech or major damage.
Image and tradition matter - so paragons of the Imperium wear Power Armour, its availability is artificaly restricted.
The Imperium is often innefficent but there are politics and milleniums of history behind what appears to be odd desicions - look at any insitution or organisation that been around for a few years and stuff starts to creep in, make that 10,000 years and stuff becomes so ingrained its part of the relgiious beliefs....
Power armor does much more for a Space Marine than listed above. In no particular order it significantly boosts:
speed
agility
strenght
communication
threat analysis
targetting
protection from blast, kenetic, radiation, sonic, atmosphere
system backups
interface to marine vehicles
If you need troops that can function in poisonous atmospheres, you take IG and give them rebreathers. Even taking vet IG and giving them amazing rebreathers is super cheap compared to taking Marines.
If you need troops with body armor, you give your IG Carapace Armor (which is just a 4+). It may be half as good, but cost only a small fraction of the resources.
Space Marines aren't for when you need armored troops, or void-capable troops, or even really-super-good troops. They're for when you need the absolute best of the best, no expense spared, army-of-one BAMFs. In almost any engagement, you're overspending on either Power Armor or Marines; two Carapace Armors do more than one Power Armor. Two IG Vets do more than than one Marine.
So the IoM mostly produces IG. Mostly produces cost-effective good gear, and well-trained well-equipped soldiers. The Lasgun and IG armor are actually *really good*. The IG and Navy take on the average xenos or traitor or rebel or whathaveyou with ease. But when facing unstoppable tides of spore-creatures, living fleets, ancient robot aliens, literal demigods, Lovecraftian horrors, or other such 40k powers, "Professional, well-equipped, well-trained, and well-run" simply doesn't look to measure up. So they face it in bulk.
Marines aren't the backbone of the Imperium. They're supposed to be the 'Angels' of the Emperor, not his 'Shield'. They're small sects of warrior-monks. Ideally used as "super-Marines" - used in small concentrations for specific missions that require the most force possible in the smallest squad possible.
They make sense, if they are used as a fraction. As a tool for a larger fighting force. They don't make sense as a fighting force in anything but a grimdark, regressive society.
They're about the right fraction of the IoM's forces, at least.
Yes. Equipment goes to those who need it most. Guardsmen are strong and need only t-shirts and flashlights to slaughter the enemies of the Imperium. Marines are weak and need the best equipment to have any chance of success.
Peregrine wrote: Yes. Equipment goes to those who need it most. Guardsmen are strong and need only t-shirts and flashlights to slaughter the enemies of the Imperium. Marines are weak and need the best equipment to have any chance of success.
If only the IG were the premier force that GW promoted, and Space Marines were only available as a single squad in that army would you see the canon purpose for Space Marines. (Especially if they were given a special rule like 'Scratch my Back', allowing you to center blasts on them if they were in melee).
(And why I adored Inquisitor Lord Karamazov when I ran Guard in 6th\7th)
Wow. Another space marine hate thread? it's only been like 3 weeks.
I'll give you a serious answer. Power armor is designed for space marines because it makes them more lethal. Space marines have special augments that allow them to interface with the armor and it also enhances their speed and strength even more.to such a degree that they function as a force multiplier in the extreme. Often the tides of battle are changes just for a few of them being in an area.
I suppose one thing we an agree on is that powered armour provides more protection than flak armour.
The time investment in in Space Marines means that you would want to protect them more, so give them better armour, regardless of their physical strength and endurance.
Also if you have a limited supply of amazing and relic weapons you will give them to your best soldiers, who are arguably Sly Ma...er I mean Space Marines.
Power Armour and Bolters are also the signature tools of the Space Marine... while they may not be effective against the entire might of the Imperial Guard, they are inspirational too!
TarkinLarson wrote: I suppose one thing we an agree on is that powered armour provides more protection than flak armour.
Not really.
1 suit of Power Armor provides more protection than 1 suit of Flak Armor.
But 1 generic unit of resources/logistics of Power Armor provides less protection than 1 generic unit of resources/logistics of Flak Armor. Because Flak Armor is so much cheaper to produce, and is COTS.
TarkinLarson wrote: I suppose one thing we an agree on is that powered armour provides more protection than flak armour.
Not really.
1 suit of Power Armor provides more protection than 1 suit of Flak Armor.
But 1 generic unit of resources/logistics of Power Armor provides less protection than 1 generic unit of resources/logistics of Flak Armor. Because Flak Armor is so much cheaper to produce, and is COTS.
Quantity is a quality too.
Flak armor basically protects you from falling debris. Power armor protects against everything short of direct anti tank hits.
Equal cost of Flak Armor protects an entire... division?
And Flak Armor protects against most weapons. Just not legendary artifacts that spew energy in physical form. Or eldrich demigods. Or swords that can cut through tanks.
its a logistics impossibility to give every guardsman power armor. Now the Interects (spelling i forget) from the first horus heresey did have thier troops all in a smaller form of power armor, bu on the scale of the imperium and the number of engagments they are in that would be impossible to keep up with.
even in today's military the gear special forces are issued/ carry is leaps and bounds above what the standard grunt get. we are talking ceramic plates, force absorbtion through special under armor padding, weaves of synthetic fibers everywhere that make them abotu at resistant to conventional arms as one can reasonably be. But the cost and resoarces to equip every member of the military with said gear would be astronomical.
Power armor is given to the elites sent to the highest value units. It takes a lot of effort to make an elite space marine, and it takes comprably zero effort to train your typical guardsman. honestly the lasgun and the flakk armor are probably of more value to the imperium than the person wearing it.
"Marines aren't the backbone of the Imperium. They're supposed to be the 'Angels' of the Emperor, not his 'Shield'. They're small sects of warrior-monks. Ideally used as "super-Marines" - used in small concentrations for specific missions that require the most force possible in the smallest squad possible. "
This explains it best for me,
I also think that one of my main problems with 40K is that
the rules don't equal (or even come close to) the fluff
I still love the setting and minis, and still play the game!
If you want to use the minis in a different rules set that can better match the fluff of 40k,
try the old Tomorrow's War from ambush alley
(sadly out of print)
""Marines aren't the backbone of the Imperium. They're supposed to be the 'Angels' of the Emperor, not his 'Shield'. They're small sects of warrior-monks. Ideally used as "super-Marines" - used in small concentrations for specific missions that require the most force possible in the smallest squad possible."
Nothing says this more than being fed into a Tau gunline by the dozens. Or being liquified by IG artillery you can't see.
Equal cost of Flak Armor protects an entire... division?
And Flak Armor protects against most weapons. Just not legendary artifacts that spew energy in physical form. Or eldrich demigods. Or swords that can cut through tanks.
This is true... but it's a bit hard to quantify as we don't know the worth of a space marine vs a guardsman, and assumes that power armour is as available as flak armour. We're not arguing the worth of the guardsman vs space marine.... we're debating if powered armour is wasted on space marines being as they have other augmentations and skills.
You couldn't put all guardsmen in power armour as there is not enough of it. There is enough for Space Marines... it's kind of a force multiplier. A space marine without weapons or armour is more powerful than a guardsman (or 10, or how many?) with nothing. Give them all a gun - the 10 guardsmen would probably kill the space marine with lasweapons if he had a boltgun (and all were naked). Pop him in powered armour and them in flak and he'll probably kill all 10 of them. Now put a guardsman in powered armour and a boltgun and the marine in powered armour and a boltgun.... the space marine should win as he has faster reactions, durability etc. Put 10 guardsmen in powered armour and 1 space marine in powered armour with weapons, and the space marine will probably die then... the strength of the guardsmen is in numbers... 10 flak vests probably are cheaper than 1 powered armour suit... and I'd argue overall the the strength of the imperium is in the guard, not the space marines over... but given the limited number of powered armours (otherwise everyone would have them) it's probably worth giving them to the space marines - especially given the mythical and legendary and inspirational abilities of the space marines as "angels".
Equal cost of Flak Armor protects an entire... division?
And Flak Armor protects against most weapons. Just not legendary artifacts that spew energy in physical form. Or eldrich demigods. Or swords that can cut through tanks.
This is true... but it's a bit hard to quantify as we don't know the worth of a space marine vs a guardsman, and assumes that power armour is as available as flak armour. We're not arguing the worth of the guardsman vs space marine.... we're debating if powered armour is wasted on space marines being as they have other augmentations and skills.
You couldn't put all guardsmen in power armour as there is not enough of it. There is enough for Space Marines... it's kind of a force multiplier. A space marine without weapons or armour is more powerful than a guardsman (or 10, or how many?) with nothing. Give them all a gun - the 10 guardsmen would probably kill the space marine with lasweapons if he had a boltgun (and all were naked). Pop him in powered armour and them in flak and he'll probably kill all 10 of them. Now put a guardsman in powered armour and a boltgun and the marine in powered armour and a boltgun.... the space marine should win as he has faster reactions, durability etc. Put 10 guardsmen in powered armour and 1 space marine in powered armour with weapons, and the space marine will probably die then... the strength of the guardsmen is in numbers... 10 flak vests probably are cheaper than 1 powered armour suit... and I'd argue overall the the strength of the imperium is in the guard, not the space marines over... but given the limited number of powered armours (otherwise everyone would have them) it's probably worth giving them to the space marines - especially given the mythical and legendary and inspirational abilities of the space marines as "angels".
tabletop sure, fluffwise probably the space marine in power armor defeats the 10 guardsman in power armor. When Horus met the Interects (sp?) he and his guard are partially unarmed/armored and the interects had full on bolters and power armor/weapons and the handful of space marines still escapes with 1 person capured, and zero other losses if I recall correctly. a few injuries but relatively unscathed from a whioel city force trying to capture them
Ratius wrote:Power armor does much more for a Space Marine than listed above. In no particular order it significantly boosts:
speed
agility
strenght
protection from blast, kenetic, radiation, sonic, atmosphere
The entire point of the thread is that a SM already has these qualities significantly enhanced vs a normal human. The suit of armour requires a backpack power unit and motors/servos, which implies that the SM's enhanced strength is largely wasted because the suit is doing most of the work anyway, thus it would be more efficient to either a) give the suit to some other highly capable but non-enhanced humans, think along the lines of Scions or such like, while SM became more lightly armoured troops, perhaps focusing on stealth and guerilla work, or b) that the process of creating SM could be made more efficient with less deaths during the development stage by not giving them as many implants, on the principle that the suit will provide them with the strength, speed and resilience required while the human inside will bring the determination/psychotic attitude required.
Snake Tortoise wrote:Also you're probably more likely to lose that power armour if given to a slow, stupid and weak human
Who said anything about giving it to the slow or the stupid. I explicitly stated you would give it to highly cunning and/or intelligent humans. You don't lose anything by giving it to a weak human, because that's the entire point of having power armour; it has a power pack on the back precisely so it can fee energy to the motors and servos and confer super human strength upon its user.
Xenomancers wrote:Wow. Another space marine hate thread?
How is this a SM hate thread in any way, shape or form? The underlying premise of the question is that SM are highly robust, strong, athletic fighters, and as such don't need power armour in the first place. I can't see how praising the basic excellence of a SM neophyte constitutes hate?
G00fySmiley wrote:its a logistics impossibility to give every guardsman power armor.
Indeed. Which is why nobody that I can see in this thread is suggesting doing that.
TarkinLarson wrote:We're not arguing the worth of the guardsman vs space marine.... we're debating if powered armour is wasted on space marines being as they have other augmentations and skills.
To discuss if it's "worth" it, you have to compare other options - do you mean worth it compared to giving the Power Armor to Guardsmen? Compared to building more Flak Armor? Compared to making a really nice shiny chair?
That's where Guardsmen come in. Because the question is "what else would you do with those resources". Because, if you have no answer to that question, there's no value in *not* giving Marines PA. Making it a trivial question.
Equal cost of Flak Armor protects an entire... division?
And Flak Armor protects against most weapons. Just not legendary artifacts that spew energy in physical form. Or eldrich demigods. Or swords that can cut through tanks.
Flak armor is basically kevlar...it is close to useless against laser weapons.
Ratius wrote: Power armor does much more for a Space Marine than listed above. In no particular order it significantly boosts:
speed
agility
strenght
communication
threat analysis
targetting
protection from blast, kenetic, radiation, sonic, atmosphere
system backups
interface to marine vehicles
I think the point is that it can also do those things for refular soldiers so why not spread the resources around instead of doubling up on your investment into you gene-enhanced super soldiers.
If it makes you 50% harder to kill and 50% deadlier, and you have guys that are 50% harder to kill and 50% deadlier.
The 50% harder to kill from the armor allows the 50% deadlier part of the Marine to be leveraged further.
The 50% deadlier from the armor goes further on a Marine because they're 50% harder to kill.
Put another way, if a normal guy is 100% normal survivable and 100% normal deadly, a marine is 200%/200%, and armor is +100%/+100%, you get to double dip on both categories on the Marine.
Put the PA on a normal guy, and you're so deadly you kill twice as many guys in the same scenario. And you live twice as long, so twice as many scenarios. You get a 4x improvement, which means allocating the PA to the normal guy gave you effectively +3 normal guys.
Put the PA on a Marine, and you're now at 300%/300%. Sure, you only improved his deadliness and survivability by half vs improving the Guardsman by doubling it. But he went from being 4x as good (twice as killy, twice as durable) to being 9x as good (three times as killy, three times as durable). Putting the PA on the Marine effectively gave you +5 normal guys.
So a PA Guy + Marine would be worth 8 "normal guys", whereas Guy + PA Marine would be worth 10 "normal guys".
(All numbers are directionally accurate, but not numerically accurate, obviously.)
All that is assuming the enhnacements are directly additive; that there's no positive synergy between armor and being super killy/durable.
Martel732 wrote: ""Marines aren't the backbone of the Imperium. They're supposed to be the 'Angels' of the Emperor, not his 'Shield'. They're small sects of warrior-monks. Ideally used as "super-Marines" - used in small concentrations for specific missions that require the most force possible in the smallest squad possible."
Nothing says this more than being fed into a Tau gunline by the dozens. Or being liquified by IG artillery you can't see.
Power armor is always going to lose to a direct shot from a tank (or artillery), there’s just no way around that. You send guardsmen in against that stuff in the first place; marines are better utilized for CQC, not artillery target practice.
Where it’s most useful is against other infantry. Unless the enemy infantry is packing anti-tank Weapons, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to get 2-3:1 odds on marine efficiency.
Martel732 wrote: From where I'm sitting, power armor loses to pulse rifles pretty damn fast.
Mathematically, a space marine with Boltgun has twice the chance to take out a Fire Warrior with Pulse rifle. I think you’re seeing what you want to see.
Not in triple tap range. Not when I'm trying to get into CQC. It's dumb that the best way to fight the Tau atm is to sit outside 15" and shoot. Even for BA. Point is, power armor melts inside 15" vs tau.
It also shows that you do NOT have to hit power armor with AT to lay waste to it.
Martel732 wrote: Not in triple tap range. Not when I'm trying to get into CQC. It's dumb that the best way to fight the Tau atm is to sit outside 15" and shoot. Even for BA. Point is, power armor melts inside 15" vs tau.
Yeah, I can't afford those. I'm too busy paying 20 points base for a CQC goon. Besides, I shouldn't have to do that. Didn't in 3rd. Didn't in 4th. Didn't in 5th. If I lived, I didn't in 6th or 7th.,
Martel732 wrote: Yeah, I can't afford those. I'm too busy paying 20 points base for a CQC goon. Besides, I shouldn't have to do that. Didn't in 3rd. Didn't in 4th. Didn't in 5th. If I lived, I didn't in 6th or 7th.,
But Rhinos are amazing! They're 7 points per wound!
I wouldn't spend 20 point's on a CQB goon either, unless it was a Tyranid Warrior with 3 wounds. What is that? Death Company?
Marine stats, jump pack, 6+ fNP, +1 attack on the charge. Boltgun and chainsword. 2 attacks base. 6+ FNP on a one wound model is just about the worst buff in the game.
Martel732 wrote: Not in triple tap range. Not when I'm trying to get into CQC. It's dumb that the best way to fight the Tau atm is to sit outside 15" and shoot. Even for BA. Point is, power armor melts inside 15" vs tau.
It also shows that you do NOT have to hit power armor with AT to lay waste to it.
Yes, a 10% chance is “Laying waste” to power armor
I assume you mean by “triple tap” as charging them into melee. That’s about as smart a tactic against Tau as charging them into Khorne “blender” Bezerkers. Why take an action that benefits your enemy more than yourself, it’s not like they’re going to charge the marines, and the marine have a better chance of ducking it out at 12” to 9” away, especially if they can claim cover.
Yes, I know that. But it's dumb and immersion breaking. The fact that BA of all chapters can't break a tau line with assault because of reasons is pretty nauseating.
No, I mean fething triple tap. And THEN triple tap overwatch.
Martel732 wrote: Marine stats, jump pack, 6+ fNP, +1 attack on the charge. Boltgun and chainsword. 2 attacks base. 6+ FNP on a one wound model is just about the worst buff in the game.
4 attacks on the charge, jump pack. Do BA get +1 Strength on the charge? (I forget) Can DC get another chainsword?
Jump Packers in general are not as useful as they used to be. 20 is definitely a lot to pay for a 1 wounder.
+1 to wound. The problem is the BA workflow is charging cheapos, killing them, then all your expensive marines get wiped to the man next enemy shooting turn. The whole game is tricorner or die. I shouldnt have to do that given their price.
Martel732 wrote: +1 to wound. The problem is the BA workflow is charging cheapos, killing them, then all your expensive marines get wiped to the man next enemy shooting turn. The whole game is tricorner or die. I shouldnt have to do that given their price.
Yeah I get it, the days of marines "hiding in close combat" are over. I'm not particularly good at assaulting these days. Thankfully my UM can survive it and shoot back on the withdrawl.
Bharring wrote:To discuss if it's "worth" it, you have to compare other options - do you mean worth it compared to giving the Power Armor to Guardsmen? Compared to building more Flak Armor? Compared to making a really nice shiny chair?
That's where Guardsmen come in. Because the question is "what else would you do with those resources". Because, if you have no answer to that question, there's no value in *not* giving Marines PA. Making it a trivial question.
Compare to other options, like I did in the original post you mean?
Bharring wrote:All that is assuming the enhnacements are directly additive
I'd argue it's the opposite, in that the power armour in many cases simply replicates what the Marine already has, and in others it essentially nullifies it. So for example the Marine is super strong, but the armour is powered assisted which means that the Marine's super strength is mostly wasted. It's like recruiting an army of nothing but powerlifting athletes who can squat over 800lbs to drive forklift trucks. How much the dude in the hot seat can squat is irrelevant because it's the fork lift that does the actual lifting and moving. You're better off giving the powerlifter a chainsword and some truly epic hypno-conditioning and giving the forklift to someone who really needs it and could make better use of it (imagine if you had like a 25 year career navy seal veteran who just can't take the physical pounding anymore).
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ERJAK wrote: I think the point is that it can also do those things for refular soldiers so why not spread the resources around instead of doubling up on your investment into you gene-enhanced super soldiers.
for the record guys these threads get a lot better in quality if you put Martel on ignore and thus allow yourself to focus on the actual discussion rather then Martel's attempts to derail any and every topic about Marines into "marines suck in 40k table top!"
as for power armor, keep in mind that the added strength it adds is a force MULTIPLIER. you get more if you multiple 2x2 then 1x2.
also marines have a MUCH faster reaction time then anyone else wearing power armor due to the black carapiece
tabletop sure, fluffwise probably the space marine in power armor defeats the 10 guardsman in power armor. When Horus met the Interects (sp?) he and his guard are partially unarmed/armored and the interects had full on bolters and power armor/weapons and the handful of space marines still escapes with 1 person capured, and zero other losses if I recall correctly. a few injuries but relatively unscathed from a whioel city force trying to capture them
Yet, 10K Brides of the Emperor defeated 4K Space Marines during the Reign of Blood showing that with equal equipment and similar training, Space Marine biology advantages are significantly limited.
For the Space Marines to work, they need perfect conditions. On the tabletop, it would like if you had a hot lucky streak with your dices and were basically a strategical god facing off a relatively noob opponent with a non anti-marine list. In competitive environment where Marines are the most abundant opponent by far, it goes about as well as some gakky Black Legion upstart facing off a well prepared Creed on Cadia.
Are the Space Marines "the best use of Power Armours"? Yes they probably were the best use for such armors during the Horus Heresy back when they were the backbone forces and siege specialists of the Imperium. Back then, a high concentration of superpowered soldiers in light tank plates was capable of overwhelming any defense. Now that they are more like specialised commando who operate in very small forces, the big, noisy and bulky power armors are probably not needed and could do better with carapace armors and camo cloaks or terminator/centurion armors for their famous drop pod assault on a small zone, but the Imperium is dogmatic to a ridiculous degree and equips the Space Marines in the same way they always were even though their role and structure has radically changed since the Great Crusade.
Power armor is expensive, so they issue it to their best troops to further enhance their effectiveness. Probably yes, assuming your space marines are deployed effectively.
It's also a measure of wealth and prestige; so the Sisters of Battle and Inquisitors also wear it as a demonstration of how much more rich and powerful the church and Inquisition are than the peasants or planetary officials.
The Guard, on the other hand, is here to win wars. A trooper's FlaK armor needs basically no maintenance he can't do himself, can be produced by the billions, requires no further resources once produced, consumes a minimum of cargo space, and is good enough to provide adequate protection against the majority of things that will shoot at Guardsmen. Power armor isn't that rare, it still is mass produced for the Astartes and the Sisters of Battle, but it's not logistically efficient to provide it for the Imperial Guard.
Similar thing with Lasguns: Bolters may be also mass produced and more lethal, but a lasgun and 3 power packs basically requires a minimum of upkeep that a Guardsman can't perform himself. No additional ammunition has to be supplied, it has like 1 moving part total, survives most hostile conditions better than the man carrying it, etc. The extra logistical capacity that would go towards a regiment's worth of bolter shells can go to artillery pieces, food, or more soldiers.
Yet, 10K Brides of the Emperor defeated 4K Space Marines during the Reign of Blood showing that with equal equipment and similar training, Space Marine biology advantages are significantly limited.
if you're refering to the siege of the ecclessiarchial palace during the reign of blood there's some factors you need to consider.
1st of all they didn't defeat them. the siege was ongoing at the time until it was ended by Alicia Dominica
2ndly: it was a siege of the eclessiarchial palace. we dunno a whole lot about this structure but we do know a little bit, namely that the Custodes took a secret passageway and arrived out front Vandire's audiance chamber. anbd then took Dominica back down it to meet with the emperor. it sounds like the Eclissarchial palace was part of the "Outer Imperial Palace"
So you didn't have 10k sisters defeating 4k Marines, you had 10k Sisters holding what was likely some of the best fortifications in the galaxy agaisnt 4k Space Marines, and only god knows how much Skitari, (rememebr the Admech was there too) for a period of time. which sounds a bit less impressive. honestly if your fortifications are strong eneugh you'd be able to hold out a long time agaisnt Marines. especially if the Marines where being careful about colaterial damage (which they likely where)
Yet, 10K Brides of the Emperor defeated 4K Space Marines during the Reign of Blood showing that with equal equipment and similar training, Space Marine biology advantages are significantly limited.
if you're refering to the siege of the ecclessiarchial palace during the reign of blood there's some factors you need to consider.
1st of all they didn't defeat them. the siege was ongoing at the time until it was ended by Alicia Dominica
2ndly: it was a siege of the eclessiarchial palace. we dunno a whole lot about this structure but we do know a little bit, namely that the Custodes took a secret passageway and arrived out front Vandire's audiance chamber. anbd then took Dominica back down it to meet with the emperor. it sounds like the Eclissarchial palace was part of the "Outer Imperial Palace"
So you didn't have 10k sisters defeating 4k Marines, you had 10k Sisters holding what was likely some of the best fortifications in the galaxy agaisnt 4k Space Marines, and only god knows how much Skitari, (rememebr the Admech was there too) for a period of time. which sounds a bit less impressive. honestly if your fortifications are strong eneugh you'd be able to hold out a long time agaisnt Marines. especially if the Marines where being careful about colaterial damage (which they likely where)
Actually, the Space Marines were defeated in the sense that their objective was to avoid a siege of the Ecclesiarchical palace (which would be long since it's a massive fortress). Their drop pod assault was pushed back and they were forced to retreat and siege the palace the good old fashion until the Brides basically turned coat and surrendered. So it's a victory, just not a crushing one where the Marine forces are exterminated, but one where they are forced to retreat and go for another, more expensive, strategy.
To be far to the marines, the sisters were defending the Imperial Palace a structure build by the emperor himself and malcador and further reinforced by Dorn during the Heresy. Horus himself couldn't crack that egg and that was with the numbers really being on his side since his force was at least double if not triple of the defenders.
A handful of chapters are going to have a rough time getting in against a fanatical foe who would never break or run and who are probably as close as you get to a marine as a normal human.
taking on a defender with a large numerical advantage, in a heavy fortified location is absolute HELL. and as HoundsofDemos noted, this is a fortification designed specificly to defend against Marines. Honestly, I think that the Marines attempt a lighting assault at all is a demonstration of just how despirate the situation was. Hell keep in mind this is a situation that when the CUSTODES heard what was going on, intervened. and I'd be willing to bet had they not been able to sway Alica Dominica that their next step would have been direct intervention. I think it says just how serious the reign of blood was that this stuff was happening (I really think this would be a fantastic event to devote a novel series too)
HoundsofDemos wrote: To be far to the marines, the sisters were defending the Imperial Palace a structure build by the emperor himself and malcador and further reinforced by Dorn during the Heresy. Horus himself couldn't crack that egg and that was with the numbers really being on his side since his force was at least double if not triple of the defenders.
A handful of chapters are going to have a rough time getting in against a fanatical foe who would never break or run and who are probably as close as you get to a marine as a normal human.
I think the Ecclesiarchical palace in which the battle was actually fought was a newer section of the Imperial Palace which was severely damaged by the battle fought there during the Horus Heresy, but it was indeed pretty much in the top five of most fortified place in the Imperium. I don't think that the idea of 10K Brides defeating 4K Space Marines in such circumstances is anywhere close to a surprise or a miracle. It was pretty much given. In fact, Space Marines themselves were unaware of the existence of the Brides of the Emperor (or at least of their presence in the Ecclesiarchical palace). I doubt they would have launched a drop pod assault to take the fortification without a siege in such circomstances. It probably would have been seen as too risky. A drop pod assault only works when the enemy isn't expecting you or if they are strongly susceptible to shock and awe tactics.
Martel732 wrote: +1 to wound. The problem is the BA workflow is charging cheapos, killing them, then all your expensive marines get wiped to the man next enemy shooting turn. The whole game is tricorner or die. I shouldnt have to do that given their price.
What you should do, no matter the ppm, is:
A) Learn to run your marines effectively in this edition.
B) Accept that yesterdays way of playing them is no longer the optimal way & stop bitching about it if that's how you insist upon playing them anyways.
even if the Marines did know about them it's likely they under estimated them the brides where a new force at the time and I imagine the Marines would have dismissed them as foolish children playing at being soldiers. the kind over over equipped under experianced, poorly lead honor guard Marines had seen, and eradicated, countless times
Ratius wrote: Power armor does much more for a Space Marine than listed above. In no particular order it significantly boosts:
speed
agility
strenght
communication
threat analysis
targetting
protection from blast, kenetic, radiation, sonic, atmosphere
system backups
interface to marine vehicles
Lets see. Speed of a space marine is 6". Other infantry, on foot, without power armor is faster. Strength. A space marine has 4. Other models without power armor have more than 4. Targeting ? Space marines usually hit on 3s, other models, without power armor, also hit on 3s. Protection. Space marines have a 3+ sv, other models without power armor too. So, no, power armor does nothing for space marines.
Actually then you could as well ask why modern military (at least in france I guess) tends to give the most advanced and efficient weapon to their elite. Atfer all, their so good they could fight with slingshots.... Anyone agrees its a silly question?
I don't see anything irrelevant in wanting your best troops to beneit from the hole lot of bonuses (as previously described), extra protecting to avoid them falling to light weapons too easily.
So to the original question, yes, it servs a purpose as direct contributor to the effectiveness of the marines.
Now this flak armour vs power armour comparison seems -in my opinion- on the contrary irrelevant: why compare what you can't?
Trying to prove a flak jacket superior to a power armour because of its price makes no sense, they pursuie two totally different goals and thus have different design: you obviously don't want an overexpensive armour to produce it en masse......
So flak armour: Great to equip your countless militia! But said armour is of little help against most weapons in 40K where everything is atrociously OP.
Power armour: Greant to enhance/protect your elite! But to hard to produce and maintain for the common soldiery to get any.
bouncingboredom wrote: Not sure if this is the best home for this thread but hey ho and away we go.
So I've been reading up on some of the early background articles on the process behind which SM are converted from aspiring youngsters to one of the Emperor's finest death dealers and it occured to me that giving power armour to SM seems like a waste resources. Granted when it comes to void fighting, clearing space hulks etc it makes some sense and there's an argument for putting the Emp's finest inside the best armour the Imperium can muster to keep them safe, but given the nature of the process it does seem like a waste. You give them the ability to breathe poisonous atmosphere, but then put them in a suit with a rebreather. You go to great lengths to harden their skin and engineer them both chemically and materially to be much stronger, faster and more hardy than the average human, but then you put them inside a suit that needs a power pack and a neural interface to work properly.
It's all in the name: Space Marine. They're marines - forces that act in support of naval and army forces that specialize in boarding actions and lightning raids on shores. They operate in Space, meaning the need full vacuum kit. When the Emperor was going out to conquer the galaxy, the only fights worth fighting were in space, because planet-bound forces are fairly irrelevant to controlling a galaxy.
Space Marines support the most important military organization in the Imperium - the Navy. That's why Space Marine chapter get their own, dedicated ships (and fleets!), while the Imperial Guard does not. Guard are just cargo to the Navy.
Just to clarify, because we're in the Background section, my answer is based off of Background data, not any kind of in-game stats, because this ain't the right forum for that. Sorry Martel.
Force concentration. Even if you gave your limited suits of power armour to as many of the best humans who could wear them as you had suits, you'd still be worse off.
Firstly, strategically and logistically, the humans are not prepared for this. Human doctrines are typically relegated to a single role, for a single regiment - therefore, the myriad possibilities open to power armour are wasted because the human inside will likely not be trained/assigned/live long enough to use the armour in all of it's uses (void combat, physical mass, overlapping body shields a la testudo). You just end up with single soldiers on their own, just doing normal guardsman things, but better. Sure, you could train them, but their attrition rate will still be higher - will come to this later - which means you need to waste more time in training MORE guys. With Marines, who have less battlefield losses and only need training once, and will last longer than guardsmen, even in power armour. Therefore, a Marine can be relied upon to take on a wider range of field operations and use the power armour in more situations.
Furthermore, logistically, all a Chapter's power armour is in one place, and the Chapter is largely capable of looking after their own suits. I don't know how your system would work, but seeing how you've not put any logistical framework in place aside from "the top X% of guardsmen get power armour", that sounds logistically nightmarish! Out of ALL the guardsmen in the galaxy, we need to monitor all of them, pick the top X% at any given moment and give them power armour training and implants, then their power armour, and then what? Do we make them into their own unit? Do we send them back to their original regiments? What if some regiments have a higher concentration of power armour recruits than others? Do artillery and armoured regiments also get power armoured guys? And the reliable logistical support of spread out power armour becomes hellish for the Administratum - at least the Space Marines are centralised, consistent, and often have their own forges.
Onto the attrition and general use of the armour. Yes, Space Marines are naturally tough. However, armour doesn't remove their existing toughness. If anything, it makes it even HARDER to kill them. Think about it, any damage needs to go through the armour, and then through the Marine. On a guardsman, it only needs to go through the armour, and then it'll probably kill the guy inside it.
The enemies of mankind already have weapons that can pierce power armour. Anything that has a power field is especially important. However, these things rarely one-shot Marines, because even if it pierces the armour, the Marine is capable of surviving it - this would not be the case if not for the armour and increased toughness working together.
Essentially, it comes down to thinking "okay, the marine paired with the armour is exponentially more effective than giving the armour to a guardsman. The armour acts as a force multiplier, making the Marine even more powerful".
Additionally, the guardsman is more likely to die of old age - far earlier than the Marine. As a result, that's more guardsmen you need to teach to use the armour, redistribute the armour, and recover the armour from. On a Marine, they can last decades, even centuries, wearing the same suit, and only need to be trained once.
I suppose the best way to look at the armour is as an amplifier. Do you want to amplify the abilities of something mediocre to make it good, or amplify something good to make it great? In my eyes, far better to do the latter.
Additionally, the guardsman is more likely to die of old age - far earlier than the Marine.
Not just die of old age, but a guardsman's combat efficiency will drop sharply past the age of 40, so you get at best a good 25 years (assuming recruitment at 15), though anybody surviving 25 years in the guard is a canny soldier. OTOH, a Space Marine doesn't decline much with age at all, and even if they do it's after centuries of warfare.
Ratius wrote: Power armor does much more for a Space Marine than listed above. In no particular order it significantly boosts:
speed
agility
strenght
communication
threat analysis
targetting
protection from blast, kenetic, radiation, sonic, atmosphere
system backups
interface to marine vehicles
Lets see. Speed of a space marine is 6". Other infantry, on foot, without power armor is faster. Strength. A space marine has 4. Other models without power armor have more than 4. Targeting ? Space marines usually hit on 3s, other models, without power armor, also hit on 3s. Protection. Space marines have a 3+ sv, other models without power armor too. So, no, power armor does nothing for space marines.
table top rules do not equate to the background for a variety of reasons. The FFG books gave a much more representative picture of were a normal human stands against a marine and it isn't pretty for the human.
Funny how they equate much better for most other factions. I understand bolter porn is completely out of the question, but even the codex fluff is impossible in 8th. Unless its gman.
Meanwhile, drukhari have rules on top of rules to represent their fluff.
Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:Actually then you could as well ask why modern military (at least in france I guess) tends to give the most advanced and efficient weapon to their elite.
I think someone else made a similar argument, which is odd because most special forces units across the world don't actually have this super secret stash of special weapons. Typically SF get easier access to things like AT weapons, more machine guns per head, better access to sniper rifles and are given more freedom with choosing things like assault rifles (but typically of the same calibre as the national service rifle) but that's a long shot from giving them super dooper power armour. It's more like giving Scions hotshot lasguns.
John Prins wrote:It's all in the name: Space Marine. They're marines - forces that act in support of naval and army forces that specialize in boarding actions and lightning raids on shores.
I did concede for void work that makes sense, but then you could just build power armoured marine units without all (or most) of the gene seeding business. Fluff wise Marines tend to do very little actual naval work.
Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Spoiler:
Just to clarify, because we're in the Background section, my answer is based off of Background data, not any kind of in-game stats, because this ain't the right forum for that. Sorry Martel.
Force concentration. Even if you gave your limited suits of power armour to as many of the best humans who could wear them as you had suits, you'd still be worse off.
Firstly, strategically and logistically, the humans are not prepared for this. Human doctrines are typically relegated to a single role, for a single regiment - therefore, the myriad possibilities open to power armour are wasted because the human inside will likely not be trained/assigned/live long enough to use the armour in all of it's uses (void combat, physical mass, overlapping body shields a la testudo). You just end up with single soldiers on their own, just doing normal guardsman things, but better. Sure, you could train them, but their attrition rate will still be higher - will come to this later - which means you need to waste more time in training MORE guys. With Marines, who have less battlefield losses and only need training once, and will last longer than guardsmen, even in power armour. Therefore, a Marine can be relied upon to take on a wider range of field operations and use the power armour in more situations.
Furthermore, logistically, all a Chapter's power armour is in one place, and the Chapter is largely capable of looking after their own suits. I don't know how your system would work, but seeing how you've not put any logistical framework in place aside from "the top X% of guardsmen get power armour", that sounds logistically nightmarish! Out of ALL the guardsmen in the galaxy, we need to monitor all of them, pick the top X% at any given moment and give them power armour training and implants, then their power armour, and then what? Do we make them into their own unit? Do we send them back to their original regiments? What if some regiments have a higher concentration of power armour recruits than others? Do artillery and armoured regiments also get power armoured guys? And the reliable logistical support of spread out power armour becomes hellish for the Administratum - at least the Space Marines are centralised, consistent, and often have their own forges.
Onto the attrition and general use of the armour. Yes, Space Marines are naturally tough. However, armour doesn't remove their existing toughness. If anything, it makes it even HARDER to kill them. Think about it, any damage needs to go through the armour, and then through the Marine. On a guardsman, it only needs to go through the armour, and then it'll probably kill the guy inside it.
The enemies of mankind already have weapons that can pierce power armour. Anything that has a power field is especially important. However, these things rarely one-shot Marines, because even if it pierces the armour, the Marine is capable of surviving it - this would not be the case if not for the armour and increased toughness working together.
Essentially, it comes down to thinking "okay, the marine paired with the armour is exponentially more effective than giving the armour to a guardsman. The armour acts as a force multiplier, making the Marine even more powerful".
Additionally, the guardsman is more likely to die of old age - far earlier than the Marine. As a result, that's more guardsmen you need to teach to use the armour, redistribute the armour, and recover the armour from. On a Marine, they can last decades, even centuries, wearing the same suit, and only need to be trained once.
I suppose the best way to look at the armour is as an amplifier. Do you want to amplify the abilities of something mediocre to make it good, or amplify something good to make it great? In my eyes, far better to do the latter.
I'm not sure where the "pick x% of guardsmen came from", it wasn't me. You say humans aren't prepared for this, tactics wise, which I think is a frankly bizarre statement given that the chapters are the work of the Imperium, of humans. Space Marine neophytes are drawn from human society (often feral). The idea that non-SM wouldn't have the doctrine to use PA properly is laughable. And if you're worried about logistics, you can just concentrate the PA in certain specialist regiments, the same way the Imperium has units like Scions or a whole department assigned to assassins.
The toughness argument has a little more credibility, but generally something powerful enough to punch through PA can punch through the Marine inside it as well. The idea that the armour is a force multiplier is the centre of my contention because from what we know about the process of creating a Marine, the PA would for the most part just seem to replicate what the Marine already has, making it redundant, rather than supplementing it.
... a guardsman's combat efficiency will drop sharply past the age of 40, so you get at best a good 25 years (assuming recruitment at 15), though anybody surviving 25 years in the guard is a canny soldier.
If only you could put someone like that - like an aging Commissar Yarrick perhaps - in some kind of suit of armour. Like, a suit with bionic eyes that could not only compensate for reduced visual acuity, but actually enhance it. With hearing devices that would enhance sounds and allow the filtering out of different noises. If we put servos or some fancy future tech in it, we could make the suit do the lifting, jumping, running, diving etc, so the person inside doesn't have to, their physical prowess would be irrelevant, only their experience, intelligence, cunning and guile. Of course we'd need some sort of power source to run it all.
bouncingboredom wrote: If only you could put someone like that - like an aging Commissar Yarrick perhaps - in some kind of suit of armour. Like, a suit with bionic eyes that could not only compensate for reduced visual acuity, but actually enhance it. With hearing devices that would enhance sounds and allow the filtering out of different noises. If we put servos or some fancy future tech in it, we could make the suit do the lifting, jumping, running, diving etc, so the person inside doesn't have to, their physical prowess would be irrelevant, only their experience, intelligence, cunning and guile. Of course we'd need some sort of power source to run it all.
We could call it....
A Skitarii.
Seriously, the Admech can do all of this by putting a brain in a jar. It's not just strength that old people lose, it's agility, balance and response times, even rapid cognitive function. An old person in a power suit might be able to lift the same amount, but they will still fatigue faster than a young person in power armor. They'll move slower and be less accurate as the fine motor skills go.
keep in mind, space Marines have the black carapiece. which improves response times in power armor considerably. Space Marines are, LITERALLY, designed to work best in power armor
Equal cost of Flak Armor protects an entire... division?
And Flak Armor protects against most weapons. Just not legendary artifacts that spew energy in physical form. Or eldrich demigods. Or swords that can cut through tanks.
Which is why Flak Armor is better for IG, because there are just so many of them. You can either give 1000/100000 IG power armor and leave the rest naked, or give 100000/100000 of them Flak Armor so they all have a chance of surviving a grot kicking them in the shins really hard.
There are not many marines, so its easier to give them all power armor, and they are so durable and combat effective (per the fluff) that they can get some good mileage out of it.
If only you could put someone like that - like an aging Commissar Yarrick perhaps - in some kind of suit of armour. Like, a suit with bionic eyes that could not only compensate for reduced visual acuity, but actually enhance it. With hearing devices that would enhance sounds and allow the filtering out of different noises. If we put servos or some fancy future tech in it, we could make the suit do the lifting, jumping, running, diving etc, so the person inside doesn't have to, their physical prowess would be irrelevant, only their experience, intelligence, cunning and guile. Of course we'd need some sort of power source to run it all.
We could call it.... POWER ARMOUR!!!! Yes!!!!
Pretty sure high ranking members of the Imperium are already given access to power armor. See : Inquisitors. Who tend to get pretty old. Giving any old IG a suit of PA is just ludicrous. That's like giving an old drunk a Porsche and expecting him to not crash it, lose the keys or sell it for booze.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Insectum7 wrote:
Martel732 wrote: Yeah, I can't afford those. I'm too busy paying 20 points base for a CQC goon. Besides, I shouldn't have to do that. Didn't in 3rd. Didn't in 4th. Didn't in 5th. If I lived, I didn't in 6th or 7th.,
But Rhinos are amazing! They're 7 points per wound!
I wouldn't spend 20 point's on a CQB goon either, unless it was a Tyranid Warrior with 3 wounds. What is that? Death Company?
They can also take smoke launchers, which increase their resilience somewhat.
Martel732 wrote:Yeah. DC.
I know 7 ppw is good. Most of my lists just can't make room. Too many babysitters.
Then drop the DC. I know they are a cool unit, but if they aren't efficient then drop them. I like Deathmarks, but I never use them because they are not worth it.
Ratius wrote: Power armor does much more for a Space Marine than listed above. In no particular order it significantly boosts:
speed agility strenght communication threat analysis targetting protection from blast, kenetic, radiation, sonic, atmosphere system backups interface to marine vehicles
Strength. A space marine has 4. Other models without power armor have more than 4.
Citation needed? Because if you're talking about Orks and Necrons, with the former being an alien genetically modified killing machine and the other being a literal alien machine, you aren't really being fair.
HoundsofDemos wrote: To be far to the marines, the sisters were defending the Imperial Palace a structure build by the emperor himself and malcador and further reinforced by Dorn during the Heresy. Horus himself couldn't crack that egg and that was with the numbers really being on his side since his force was at least double if not triple of the defenders.
A handful of chapters are going to have a rough time getting in against a fanatical foe who would never break or run and who are probably as close as you get to a marine as a normal human.
I think the Ecclesiarchical palace in which the battle was actually fought was a newer section of the Imperial Palace which was severely damaged by the battle fought there during the Horus Heresy, but it was indeed pretty much in the top five of most fortified place in the Imperium. I don't think that the idea of 10K Brides defeating 4K Space Marines in such circumstances is anywhere close to a surprise or a miracle. It was pretty much given. In fact, Space Marines themselves were unaware of the existence of the Brides of the Emperor (or at least of their presence in the Ecclesiarchical palace). I doubt they would have launched a drop pod assault to take the fortification without a siege in such circomstances. It probably would have been seen as too risky. A drop pod assault only works when the enemy isn't expecting you or if they are strongly susceptible to shock and awe tactics.
Space Marine units are essentially ineffective at siegecraft. Fundamentals of a successful siege involve having enough personnel to close and maintain a perimeter through which no supplies can pass... 4000 Space Marines, even with the finest technology available, couldn't maintain a perimeter around even a small city.
Space Marines are most effective when employing their force concentration, high strategic mobility, and shock tactics. However, will small numbers and limited support capacity and artillery [also, high logistical demands per combatant], they're basically ineffective in a protracted attritive engagement like a siege. They might have ad that capability at legion strength with ample supplies of artillery and Solar Auxilia support, but they don't have that capability in the 40k-present.
Ratius wrote: Power armor does much more for a Space Marine than listed above. In no particular order it significantly boosts:
speed
agility
strenght
communication
threat analysis
targetting
protection from blast, kenetic, radiation, sonic, atmosphere
system backups
interface to marine vehicles
Lets see. Speed of a space marine is 6". Other infantry, on foot, without power armor is faster. Strength. A space marine has 4. Other models without power armor have more than 4. Targeting ? Space marines usually hit on 3s, other models, without power armor, also hit on 3s. Protection. Space marines have a 3+ sv, other models without power armor too. So, no, power armor does nothing for space marines.
which just prove the flaws inheriant in the 6 based system.
Ratius wrote: Power armor does much more for a Space Marine than listed above. In no particular order it significantly boosts:
speed
agility
strenght
communication
threat analysis
targetting
protection from blast, kenetic, radiation, sonic, atmosphere
system backups
interface to marine vehicles
Lets see. Speed of a space marine is 6". Other infantry, on foot, without power armor is faster. Strength. A space marine has 4. Other models without power armor have more than 4. Targeting ? Space marines usually hit on 3s, other models, without power armor, also hit on 3s. Protection. Space marines have a 3+ sv, other models without power armor too. So, no, power armor does nothing for space marines.
What other human models have a 3+ save without power armor? Marines aren't Tyranids, after all.
Argument #1 in this thread appears to be “Wow, the stats for Marines in the game are terrible. Why would anyone let them keep their equipment instead of selling it to anyone else?”
Argument against #1 is “If you gave it to someone else, you’d just end up making chapters of non-augmented marines.” Because, hey, we’ve gone to the trouble of locating and training these elite humans to use this power armor stuff, wouldn’t it be cool to augment them so they”re even better and we get more value out of the training?
Because that’s basically what the marines would have been before a bunch of genetically engineered generals were created, lost, recovered, and then put in charge.
Otherwise, the next thing you know, you’re breeding Ogryn and sub-humans as line infantry, and making the Ad Mech produce fighting robots.
Additionally, the guardsman is more likely to die of old age - far earlier than the Marine.
Not just die of old age, but a guardsman's combat efficiency will drop sharply past the age of 40, so you get at best a good 25 years (assuming recruitment at 15), though anybody surviving 25 years in the guard is a canny soldier. OTOH, a Space Marine doesn't decline much with age at all, and even if they do it's after centuries of warfare.
There are a lot of ways to reduce the effects of ageing, I remember seeing a quote about the average human life being around 120/200 assuming they didn't fight in combat but I can't remember where I got it from.
Additionally, the guardsman is more likely to die of old age - far earlier than the Marine.
Not just die of old age, but a guardsman's combat efficiency will drop sharply past the age of 40, so you get at best a good 25 years (assuming recruitment at 15), though anybody surviving 25 years in the guard is a canny soldier. OTOH, a Space Marine doesn't decline much with age at all, and even if they do it's after centuries of warfare.
There are a lot of ways to reduce the effects of ageing, I remember seeing a quote about the average human life being around 120/200 assuming they didn't fight in combat but I can't remember where I got it from.
that's due to rejuviat theapry, which is expensive and the domain of the wealthy and powerful. not something you hand out to your common soldier
that's due to rejuviat theapry, which is expensive and the domain of the wealthy and powerful. not something you hand out to your common soldier
Indeed, only Commissars, Scions, Sisters and Inquisitorial agents have access to such rejuvenat treatment that always them to be 20 for a century. All of these are nobles. Maybe some elite guardsmen regiment might have access to more basic anti-aging drugs that would allow them to gain a decade or two of youth, but that's probably very rare. Then again, most Space Marines probably don't live long enough to benefit from the full package of their anti-aging physiology. In fact, we probably see the reverse effect more often, Space Marines age 15-16 who have the appearence of men in their late twenies/early thirties since their enhancement makes them mature faster according the 3rd eddition lore.
Martel732 wrote:Its actually not the background section. But carry on. I dont really care.
My apologies, seems this isn't in the background section after all! I was probably just assuming that since OP only mentions things in terms of the background (enhanced respiratory system, etc etc which never plays a part on tabletop).
bouncingboredom wrote:
Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Spoiler:
Just to clarify, because we're in the Background section, my answer is based off of Background data, not any kind of in-game stats, because this ain't the right forum for that. Sorry Martel.
Force concentration. Even if you gave your limited suits of power armour to as many of the best humans who could wear them as you had suits, you'd still be worse off.
Firstly, strategically and logistically, the humans are not prepared for this. Human doctrines are typically relegated to a single role, for a single regiment - therefore, the myriad possibilities open to power armour are wasted because the human inside will likely not be trained/assigned/live long enough to use the armour in all of it's uses (void combat, physical mass, overlapping body shields a la testudo). You just end up with single soldiers on their own, just doing normal guardsman things, but better. Sure, you could train them, but their attrition rate will still be higher - will come to this later - which means you need to waste more time in training MORE guys. With Marines, who have less battlefield losses and only need training once, and will last longer than guardsmen, even in power armour. Therefore, a Marine can be relied upon to take on a wider range of field operations and use the power armour in more situations.
Furthermore, logistically, all a Chapter's power armour is in one place, and the Chapter is largely capable of looking after their own suits. I don't know how your system would work, but seeing how you've not put any logistical framework in place aside from "the top X% of guardsmen get power armour", that sounds logistically nightmarish! Out of ALL the guardsmen in the galaxy, we need to monitor all of them, pick the top X% at any given moment and give them power armour training and implants, then their power armour, and then what? Do we make them into their own unit? Do we send them back to their original regiments? What if some regiments have a higher concentration of power armour recruits than others? Do artillery and armoured regiments also get power armoured guys? And the reliable logistical support of spread out power armour becomes hellish for the Administratum - at least the Space Marines are centralised, consistent, and often have their own forges.
Onto the attrition and general use of the armour. Yes, Space Marines are naturally tough. However, armour doesn't remove their existing toughness. If anything, it makes it even HARDER to kill them. Think about it, any damage needs to go through the armour, and then through the Marine. On a guardsman, it only needs to go through the armour, and then it'll probably kill the guy inside it.
The enemies of mankind already have weapons that can pierce power armour. Anything that has a power field is especially important. However, these things rarely one-shot Marines, because even if it pierces the armour, the Marine is capable of surviving it - this would not be the case if not for the armour and increased toughness working together.
Essentially, it comes down to thinking "okay, the marine paired with the armour is exponentially more effective than giving the armour to a guardsman. The armour acts as a force multiplier, making the Marine even more powerful".
Additionally, the guardsman is more likely to die of old age - far earlier than the Marine. As a result, that's more guardsmen you need to teach to use the armour, redistribute the armour, and recover the armour from. On a Marine, they can last decades, even centuries, wearing the same suit, and only need to be trained once.
I suppose the best way to look at the armour is as an amplifier. Do you want to amplify the abilities of something mediocre to make it good, or amplify something good to make it great? In my eyes, far better to do the latter.
I'm not sure where the "pick x% of guardsmen came from", it wasn't me.
If I'm not mistaken, you say in your OP "give the power armour to soldiers who are brave/intelligent/cunning etc, but physically a little weak". How is that not a % of guardsmen? Even we only picked the brave/intelligent/cunning, that's still more guardsmen than Astartes power armour, which means you'd NEED to pick out a %. And again, how are these power armoured guardsmen deployed and assigned? Are they taken from a range of regiments? Is each regiment allowed a suit of armour (and because there's so few suits, some regiments wouldn't get one)?
You say humans aren't prepared for this, tactics wise, which I think is a frankly bizarre statement given that the chapters are the work of the Imperium, of humans. Space Marine neophytes are drawn from human society (often feral). The idea that non-SM wouldn't have the doctrine to use PA properly is laughable.
Space Marines are trained to use it from childhood, before they're even hitting puberty in many cases. That's earlier than most guardsmen are trained, barring the more famed regiments like the Cadians, Catachans and Krieg.
The difference is that, aside from the first decade or so of his life, the Space Marine is then completely dedicated to the use of their power armour. As a proportion, that puts the Marine's useage and experience of that armour above any guardsman - why?
Because a guardsman would be recruited later on, most likely after puberty (save for Conscripts, and who's putting a Conscript in a suit of power armour?), will need just as long to train in it's use, if not longer, due to no Black Carapace and no heightened senses or mental acuity. Then, we're throwing them into a conflict where they're weaker than the Marine still (again, if the armour is pierced, the Marine can still keep fighting - the guardsman stands less of a chance).
Overall, the proportion of time that a guardsman just spends training with the suit and their life in general without mastery of power armour is longer than a Space Marines', and they won't even have more durability over the Marine to make that back.
And if you're worried about logistics, you can just concentrate the PA in certain specialist regiments, the same way the Imperium has units like Scions or a whole department assigned to assassins.
Just a bit of clarification here, is this a case of assigning power armour to a regiment permanently (a la, an armoured regiment having Leman Russes), or having a "power armoured regiment"?
If it's the former, nice logistically, but the power armour will only be used in the type of warfare that regiment performs, which is a waste of the versatility of power armour.
If it's the latter, where are we recruiting this regiment from? Are we going around EVERY regiment to find their best and brightest? What about cultural differences? Are they recruited from a single source, and therefore might miss out on better recruits from elsewhere?
The toughness argument has a little more credibility, but generally something powerful enough to punch through PA can punch through the Marine inside it as well.
If it's punched through the power armour, there's a good chance it will have lost enough energy to be survivable on impact with flesh. And considering how much a Space Marine can survive naturally, the power armour makes them immune to all but the most damaging attacks.
The idea that the armour is a force multiplier is the centre of my contention because from what we know about the process of creating a Marine, the PA would for the most part just seem to replicate what the Marine already has, making it redundant, rather than supplementing it.
The Space Marine's toughened skeleton and body protects his life, yes? The armour goes OVER this, to supplement this durability. It's not like the moment he puts the power armour on, his skeleton becomes normal and has no effect. Sure, he's not needing to rely on his body so much to save him, but on the occasions that his power armour isn't enough, he's still got potent natural armour underneath. That's how armour works, it's how under-armour works.
Additionally, even if we ignore that, there's still so much more that a Space Marine can do, and it takes a great deal of time to nurture those skills and enhancements - isn't it a better idea to protect that investment? Remember, just because he's wearing armour doesn't mean that he doesn't have that increased durability.
If only you could put someone like that - like an aging Commissar Yarrick perhaps - in some kind of suit of armour. Like, a suit with bionic eyes that could not only compensate for reduced visual acuity, but actually enhance it. With hearing devices that would enhance sounds and allow the filtering out of different noises. If we put servos or some fancy future tech in it, we could make the suit do the lifting, jumping, running, diving etc, so the person inside doesn't have to, their physical prowess would be irrelevant, only their experience, intelligence, cunning and guile. Of course we'd need some sort of power source to run it all.
You can. That's why Inquisitors have it. The difference? They've EARNED it through service. Giving power armour to a guardsman, even if they're the top 0.001%, is still giving an incredibly valuable resources to a frontline soldier who can't really be THAT old, otherwise you're wasting time training them in it if they're just going to end up mentally frail.
Furthermore, the human power armour the Inquisition and Sisters use are not a replacement for Astartes suits. The Space Marines still have their own power armour, they don't give it away to mere mortals, who only have access to it because of their increased strategic value. These individuals have power armour because they're actually important on a strategic level without it, or have massive political clout that they can flaunt to afford the best in personal protection. A guardsman is not strategically important. A regiment of them is, and what's the best way to get a regiment of guardsmen? Keep them cheap.
Equal cost of Flak Armor protects an entire... division?
And Flak Armor protects against most weapons. Just not legendary artifacts that spew energy in physical form. Or eldrich demigods. Or swords that can cut through tanks.
Flak armor is basically kevlar...it is close to useless against laser weapons.
If I remember correctly from the original description of flak armour it was cardboard,bubble wrap and fabric and it was mentioned as being quite effective against laser weapons but not so much sold shot.
John Prins wrote:It's not just strength that old people lose, it's agility, balance and response times, even rapid cognitive function. An old person in a power suit might be able to lift the same amount, but they will still fatigue faster than a young person in power armor. They'll move slower and be less accurate as the fine motor skills go.
It's called power armour for a reason. Because the suit is powered and thus can replace those physical requirements. The armour doesn't just do the lifting, it does the running, the balancing, the holding steady of the rifle. (As an interesting side note, GW has never bothered to explain to my knowledge why it is that a SM can live for hundreds of years vs a regular human. It's just kind of accepted that it happens). If the armour was only powered in the sense of air conditioning, comms, life support etc then that would make a whole lot more sense, because you would need superhuman strength, reflexes, etc to move about with the armour on.
BrianDavion wrote:keep in mind, space Marines have the black carapiece. which improves response times in power armor considerably. Space Marines are, LITERALLY, designed to work best in power armor
Through the art and lore we have plenty of examples of humans being basically plugged into a machine.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:Giving any old IG a suit of PA is just ludicrous. That's like giving an old drunk a Porsche and expecting him to not crash it, lose the keys or sell it for booze.
Lucky I didn't suggest anything like that then isn't it..
solkan wrote:Weird. Argument #1 in this thread appears to be “Wow, the stats for Marines in the game are terrible. Why would anyone let them keep their equipment instead of selling it to anyone else?”
Apparently you've been reading a different thread then and confused it with this one. It's actually quite amusing at this stage the number of people who don't even seem to have bothered reading the OP before posting and have just invented their own narrative to argue against.
BrianDavion wrote:that's due to rejuviat theapry, which is expensive and the domain of the wealthy and powerful. not something you hand out to your common soldier
If you were handpicking candidates to put into Power Armour, that wouldn't exactly make them common soldiers.
If you were handpicking candidates to put into Power Armour, that wouldn't exactly make them common soldiers.
So lemme get this striaght, your proposal is to take normal humans, give them surgery to enable them to interface with their power armor, give them access to advanced medical techniques to extend their lives, presumably also spend a long time training them to ensure they're able to most effectively use power armor..
At this point.. WHY NOT JUST MAKE THEM SPACE MARINES?!
Sgt_Smudge wrote: If I'm not mistaken, you say in your OP "give the power armour to soldiers who are brave/intelligent/cunning etc, but physically a little weak". How is that not a % of guardsmen? Even we only picked the brave/intelligent/cunning, that's still more guardsmen than Astartes power armour, which means you'd NEED to pick out a %. And again, how are these power armoured guardsmen deployed and assigned? Are they taken from a range of regiments? Is each regiment allowed a suit of armour (and because there's so few suits, some regiments wouldn't get one)?
There's more to the Imperium than just Guardsmen. Everything from Scions and Commissar candidates to Assassins, to the very recruiting process that Marines themselves use. I think logically you would keep the PA units together, in something similar to the lines of a SM chapter but probably with a more broad support base (don't really need PA dudes driving tanks). I'd imgaine role wise you would use them kind of like SM today, as the elite shock element of large forces, while the actual SM would shift to more of what we would traditionally associate with the SF role, operating well away from the main armies of the Imperium in far more selective and demanding missions, likely with more emphasis on pushing the boundaries and frontiers of the Imperium. Don't get me wrong, I understand why SM are used the way they are in the lore, because you need to sell models and armies. They have Predators and Land Raiders because GW likes the delcious profit generated by selling such items.
Space Marines are trained to use it from childhood, before they're even hitting puberty in many cases. That's earlier than most guardsmen are trained, barring the more famed regiments like the Cadians, Catachans and Krieg.
Catachan is a death world, where virtually everything that breathes is trying to kill you. Many planets in the Imperium are equally and suitably Grim Dark. Most earth based armies start recruiting soldiers around the age of about 17 (if you discount soft recruiting efforts like cadet forces). Soliders normally have to turn 18 before they become deployable. The head start a SM gets is a few years at best, and a lot of that is just ensuring that they don't die from the ensuing process. That's before we get to GW adding "failure to understand the concept of puberty and its impacts" to the loooooong list of errors they make (it would make more sense to wait a few years so you can identify people with good genetics). And before we even get on to the inconsistency in when the process is supposed to start vs how they describe most SM recruitment processes.
Are they recruited from a single source, and therefore might miss out on better recruits from elsewhere?
There is not a small amount of irony about using this.
If it's punched through the power armour, there's a good chance it will have lost enough energy to be survivable on impact with flesh.
Are you sure you've read some of the 40K fluff? Like Bolter shells that explode like mini grenades after penetrating (irrespective of how inefficient that is), super heated plasma weapons, weapons that crush armour in micro gravity wells, Lascannons, Power Fists that can crush tanks etc.
And considering how much a Space Marine can survive naturally, the power armour makes them immune to all but the most damaging attacks.
Quite the reverse, which is part of my contention. The armour is in many cases a redundant layer. It can stop things that the Marines own body would stop, while largely being unable to prevent against the sort of catastrophic damage that would kill an otherwise exposed Marine. Indeed it's arguable that the bulk of the armour and its impact on their ability to conceal themselves, move quietly, avoid IR detection at immense ranges (seriously, it's a reactor with two exhausts sticking out the back) might actually reduce their survival (NB; a US army comissioned study in the '50s calculated that body armour would actually increase casualties among infantry units).
You can. That's why Inquisitors have it. The difference? They've EARNED it through service. Giving power armour to a guardsman, even if they're the top 0.001%, is still giving an incredibly valuable resources to a frontline soldier who can't really be THAT old, otherwise you're wasting time training them in it if they're just going to end up mentally frail.
Your argument there is basically contradictory.
Furthermore, the human power armour the Inquisition and Sisters use are not a replacement for Astartes suits. The Space Marines still have their own power armour, they don't give it away to mere mortals, who only have access to it because of their increased strategic value. These individuals have power armour because they're actually important on a strategic level without it, or have massive political clout that they can flaunt to afford the best in personal protection. A guardsman is not strategically important. A regiment of them is, and what's the best way to get a regiment of guardsmen? Keep them cheap.
You keep going on about this idea of just taking individual, poor quality guardsmen, something that I never mentioned. That is what we call a strawman. Please stop doing that. In terms of strategic value, do you not see the value in taking some of the best that humanity has to offer and putting them into PA, forming whatever you like squads, companies, whole regiments even, of elite shock troops, while also retaining the SM who through their gene processes etc form an additional elite. In effect you're doubling the number of exceptionally high quality, highly survivable troops at your disposal in a stroke.
The reality is that main reason SM wear PA is because it looks cool, the general lore is (mostly) pretty good and they sell like fething hotcakes. And because who ever originally wrote the concept behind them didn't stop to think how dumb it was to put super strong, super survivable soldiers inside a powered suit that just replicates most of the abilites they already have.
yet again end of the day you're basicly suggesting making space marines without the implants, why not combine the two to make the most effective elite soldiers you can, instead of two groups of less effecvtive elites.
BrianDavion wrote: So lemme get this striaght, your proposal is to take normal humans, give them surgery to enable them to interface with their power armor, give them access to advanced medical techniques to extend their lives, presumably also spend a long time training them to ensure they're able to most effectively use power armor.. At this point.. WHY NOT JUST MAKE THEM SPACE MARINES?!
Because the vast majority of the therapy and development of the SM is made redundant by putting them inside the armour (those that survive at any rate). The procedures you mentioned - surgery to accept an interface and the odd medical treatment - are fairly common place, easily performed procedures in the grim darkness of the 41st Millenium. The first is basically as comman as going to the dentist in the lore.
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BrianDavion wrote: yet again end of the day you're basicly suggesting making space marines without the implants, why not combine the two to make the most effective elite soldiers you can, instead of two groups of less effecvtive elites.
Because you're not making the mos effective, elite soldiers you can. By and large you're just redundantly duplicating what you've already done to the Marine with the gene therapy.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: If I'm not mistaken, you say in your OP "give the power armour to soldiers who are brave/intelligent/cunning etc, but physically a little weak". How is that not a % of guardsmen? Even we only picked the brave/intelligent/cunning, that's still more guardsmen than Astartes power armour, which means you'd NEED to pick out a %. And again, how are these power armoured guardsmen deployed and assigned? Are they taken from a range of regiments? Is each regiment allowed a suit of armour (and because there's so few suits, some regiments wouldn't get one)?
There's more to the Imperium than just Guardsmen. Everything from Scions and Commissar candidates to Assassins, to the very recruiting process that Marines themselves use. I think logically you would keep the PA units together, in something similar to the lines of a SM chapter but probably with a more broad support base (don't really need PA dudes driving tanks). I'd imgaine role wise you would use them kind of like SM today, as the elite shock element of large forces, while the actual SM would shift to more of what we would traditionally associate with the SF role, operating well away from the main armies of the Imperium in far more selective and demanding missions, likely with more emphasis on pushing the boundaries and frontiers of the Imperium. Don't get me wrong, I understand why SM are used the way they are in the lore, because you need to sell models and armies. They have Predators and Land Raiders because GW likes the delcious profit generated by selling such items.
So they're filling the same role as current filled by the Space Marines, who do it better anyways (again, even with the features of the armour, the Space Marine's abilities are still being used).
All you're doing here then is making some good human do the job that your already expensive Space Marines used to do. Surely it's better to protect the cost investment of the Space Marines? Guardsmen are cheap. Even natural talent or intelligence in a human can be found elsewhere in a matter of years. A Space Marine should get the best, because they represent a higher cost. Who cares if there's a *tiny* bit of overlap? The Space Marine still makes better use of the armour than the human. The human won't make as efficient use out of it.
Spoiler:
Space Marines are trained to use it from childhood, before they're even hitting puberty in many cases. That's earlier than most guardsmen are trained, barring the more famed regiments like the Cadians, Catachans and Krieg.
Catachan is a death world, where virtually everything that breathes is trying to kill you.
No different then to Baal, or Fenris, which are equally inimical to human life.
Most earth based armies start recruiting soldiers around the age of about 17 (if you discount soft recruiting efforts like cadet forces). Soliders normally have to turn 18 before they become deployable. The head start a SM gets is a few years at best, and a lot of that is just ensuring that they don't die from the ensuing process.
That's still a few years more than a human solider, who would die earlier than the Marine anyways, and in that same time frame, is being enhanced with biological augmentations.
The Marine only has to be trained once, and they'll last decades. Guardsmen need to be actually raised longer, take longer to train, are less effective, and die sooner. Therefore, you're wasting a not-insignificant amount of time and resources on creating new guardsmen, whereas your one Astartes is still going strong.
That's before we get to GW adding "failure to understand the concept of puberty and its impacts" to the loooooong list of errors they make (it would make more sense to wait a few years so you can identify people with good genetics). And before we even get on to the inconsistency in when the process is supposed to start vs how they describe most SM recruitment processes.
Considering that the foremost scientist of, well, ever, the Emperor, has had it so that implantation is done young, I'm inclined to think that it makes more sense that way in the 40k universe.
Are they recruited from a single source, and therefore might miss out on better recruits from elsewhere?
There is not a small amount of irony about using this.
But that's why there's multiple Chapters, who often have a large recruiting pool. Again, I still don't know how your system would work.
If it's punched through the power armour, there's a good chance it will have lost enough energy to be survivable on impact with flesh.
Are you sure you've read some of the 40K fluff? Like Bolter shells that explode like mini grenades after penetrating (irrespective of how inefficient that is), super heated plasma weapons, weapons that crush armour in micro gravity wells, Lascannons, Power Fists that can crush tanks etc.
Yes, I have. And Space Marines have survived those things in their power armour, because even IF the armour is breached, and there's excess damage to go, their superhuman bodies can shrug off a horrific amount of it.
Think of it like this: you have Unarmoured Astartes (UA), Armoured Astartes (AA), Unarmoured Human (UH) and Armoured Human (AH). Against small arms fire, all but UH are fine. However, small arms fire isn't usually the kind of thing that power armour needs to worry about, and enemies that rely on small arms fire are usually threats for the guard to take care of, with overwhelming numbers, because Marines would be overkill.
Again these heavy hitters? UA and AH are not enough - heavy weapons will tear through even a Space Marine's unprotected flesh, and almost any damage that breaches the power armour is a death sentence for a human occupant.
However, an Armoured Astartes, because he has both the armour AND natural toughness, has a solid chance to walk off any damage that might breach his armour. Larraman Cells, tougher bones, the Black Carapace, any of these would be a massive help.
And considering how much a Space Marine can survive naturally, the power armour makes them immune to all but the most damaging attacks.
Quite the reverse, which is part of my contention. The armour is in many cases a redundant layer. It can stop things that the Marines own body would stop, while largely being unable to prevent against the sort of catastrophic damage that would kill an otherwise exposed Marine.
Pardon? I've seen plenty of cases of Space Marines surviving heavy weapon damage, because of their power armour.
Again, if power armour is so useless, why bother giving it to guardsmen then? Just slap more guardsmen down until the enemy run out of bullets for their small arms.
Indeed it's arguable that the bulk of the armour and its impact on their ability to conceal themselves, move quietly, avoid IR detection at immense ranges (seriously, it's a reactor with two exhausts sticking out the back) might actually reduce their survival (NB; a US army comissioned study in the '50s calculated that body armour would actually increase casualties among infantry units).
Does a Space Marine NEED to conceal themselves in power armour? If power armoured Marines are in combat, it's more likely that they're there for shock and awe, not infiltration - that job is for the Scouts and Phobos Marines (whose armour IS stealthy by design, disproving that power armour must be more detectable).
You can. That's why Inquisitors have it. The difference? They've EARNED it through service. Giving power armour to a guardsman, even if they're the top 0.001%, is still giving an incredibly valuable resources to a frontline soldier who can't really be THAT old, otherwise you're wasting time training them in it if they're just going to end up mentally frail.
Your argument there is basically contradictory.
Howso? Giving power armour to an Inquistor is valuable because: A - you're not taking it away from the Astartes. B - They've earned their political clout, and have proven to be trustworthy and valuable enough to warrant it. C - They're actually important to protect. A guardsman is not. Sure, the armour might protect the guardsman, but why bother protecting them when you can protect someone that's actually important, like an Inquisitor or Space Marine?
Furthermore, the human power armour the Inquisition and Sisters use are not a replacement for Astartes suits. The Space Marines still have their own power armour, they don't give it away to mere mortals, who only have access to it because of their increased strategic value. These individuals have power armour because they're actually important on a strategic level without it, or have massive political clout that they can flaunt to afford the best in personal protection. A guardsman is not strategically important. A regiment of them is, and what's the best way to get a regiment of guardsmen? Keep them cheap.
You keep going on about this idea of just taking individual, poor quality guardsmen, something that I never mentioned. That is what we call a strawman. Please stop doing that.
I'm not talking about taking poor quality guardsmen. I'm saying that all guardsmen are poor quality. There is a difference.
I understand that you're taking the best of the best of the best of the best guardsmen. I'm telling you that they're still not worth putting in power armour, because the benefit it gives them is less than the benefit it gives to Astartes, or Inquisitors.
In terms of strategic value, do you not see the value in taking some of the best that humanity has to offer and putting them into PA, forming whatever you like squads, companies, whole regiments even, of elite shock troops, while also retaining the SM who through their gene processes etc form an additional elite. In effect you're doubling the number of exceptionally high quality, highly survivable troops at your disposal in a stroke.
Alternatively, we can give the power armour to the REAL "best that humanity can offer" - the Space Marines - and amplify the already powerful Astartes to even greater heights. Give the guardsmen good stuff, for sure, but they will not be able to use the power armour to the same extent a Marine can.
Also, unlikely you'll get more than a handful of regiments of power armoured humans. There's not that many suits of power armour. And again - you've still not really explained how these guys are organised. How are they recruited? How are they deployed?
Sure, we could have naked Space Marines running about, and they'd be very good still, alongside these armoured humans, who will be amplified to become basically Marines-1, but why bother having inferior Marines when you can just have actual Marines and not have to waste more time and resources because your expensive Marines are dying at a higher rate with less armour, and you need to wait for mature humans to waste time training only for them to die earlier than a Marine would in power armour.
Force concentration - you don't give a scope to a poor marksman because maybe the scope will help him aim better. You give the scope to an already good marksman so that they can shoot near flawlessly.
And because who ever originally wrote the concept behind them didn't stop to think how dumb it was to put super strong, super survivable soldiers inside a powered suit that just replicates most of the abilites they already have.
Because the armour is an amplifier for their already-powerful abilities. Yes, there's some overlap. But it's a small redundancy that's still more efficient than still some puny humans in, who even if they're the best of the best of the best of the best, are STILL inferior to Astartes. Why bother spreading out your resources to create two "okay" forces, than just embracing how cheap humans are, and the protection of your investment of time and resources, in the form of an Astartes?
I'm actually curious as well, does power armour actually boost the motive capabilities of a human to Astartes levels, but the Astartes see no benefit? That doesn't sound right to me.
TL;DR - why bother making human into Space Marines lite and reducing the operational effectiveness of Space Marines, when you could just have actual Space Marines?
I agree with most of what Sg Smudge is saying but there are few bits i don't.
In addition - alot of the thread is ignoring key aspects of why power armour is issued to who it is. Status
Space Marines and Sisters of Battle do wear it as valuable elite front line combatants but also as a powerful status symbol in the Imperium - the latter is also true of Inquisitors and other Imperials that have access to it. Like them Adeptus Mechanicus wear it or superior versions because its practical.
The Imperium manufactures it on a large scale for the Astartes, Sororitas (who GW have boosted numers into the hundreds of millions) and all other users.
The guard have a wide variety of armour from furs to flak, to reflec to varied steampunk powered armour.....
To answer the original question: one word: redundancy.
A super elite strike force needs to function, no matter the circumstances. Compare it to modern IT-Security, expecially Server security. Redundancy is one of the most important parts here. No matter how low the probability, you have to be prepared for it
Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:Actually then you could as well ask why modern military (at least in france I guess) tends to give the most advanced and efficient weapon to their elite.
I think someone else made a similar argument, which is odd because most special forces units across the world don't actually have this super secret stash of special weapons. Typically SF get easier access to things like AT weapons, more machine guns per head, better access to sniper rifles and are given more freedom with choosing things like assault rifles (but typically of the same calibre as the national service rifle) but that's a long shot from giving them super dooper power armour. It's more like giving Scions hotshot lasguns.
might vary from country to country, but generally thier equipment is a lot better they may shoot the same caliber as most normal sevice members, but even the trigger assemblies of an M16 (usually made by the cheapest bidder) will be upgraded to be lighter, more responsive and a shorter pull.its like saying a Rolls-Royce phantom is still the same as a honda civic because they both use gas. The optics alone on thier rifles cost more than a dozen service rifles. They also get more freedom in what to use to tailor their gear to themselves. Also thier body armor is no longer "this is the best armor we can issue for $1000 per servic person." instead it is oh this set has a shock absorbing underarmor and speads the impact of anything short of antimaterials rifles below weaved kevlar/synthetics and under layers of ceramic plating. "$100k per set, better make sure to order backups so each member has 3". its all level 4 armor but with things that are lighter, and overall better than you are going to put on most units. That said that same tech in 10 years will probably be on every service person while the cutting edge equipment will by then be further improvments unknown yet (hell maybe eventually some rudimentary power armor.. or maybe full on robots but that is another discussion)
IE modern armor is certainly not power armor sure but the same equation is taken in 40k. the more valuable soldiers who will see the hardest action will get the best equipment. In the fluff you can send in a handful of space marines to take a medium sized vessel or secure a few city blocks from normal humans vs having a protracted battle with tons of life lost (on the imperium side, the marines would still eliminate all resistance on the enemy side). In 30k the legion it is said did much of the fighting while the imperial guard troopers were more garrison duty. This may be another explanation as garrison duty the imperial gaurd only needed flakk armor and a lasgun. But now the space marine legions are much smaller/less used, but the imperium may still only issue that same gear simply because that is what the emperor chose to equip them with and innovation in the 41st millenium is Heresy.
Mr Morden wrote:I agree with most of what Sg Smudge is saying but there are few bits i don't.
Thank you, out of curiosity, what do you disagree with?
In addition - alot of the thread is ignoring key aspects of why power armour is issued to who it is. Status
Space Marines and Sisters of Battle do wear it as valuable elite front line combatants but also as a powerful status symbol in the Imperium - the latter is also true of Inquisitors and other Imperials that have access to it. Like them Adeptus Mechanicus wear it or superior versions because its practical.
The Imperium manufactures it on a large scale for the Astartes, Sororitas (who GW have boosted numers into the hundreds of millions) and all other users.
This is also very true. Power armour has almost a religious significance for the people of the 41st Millennium. Would you give what is essentially a holy relic to a guardsman who (while being the best of the best of the best of the best) is still just an insignificant single guy, at the end of the day?
Whereas you have Space Marines, with the blood of the primarchs running through their veins, Sisters of Battle, with the direct blessing of the Emperor himself, Inquisitors, the eyes and ears of the Emperor made manifest, and other high-authority figures?
A smart guardsman isn't anywhere near "worthy" or "significant" enough to entrust with such a massive symbol of status.
The guard have a wide variety of armour from furs to flak, to reflec to varied steampunk powered armour.....
Adding to this - it's absolutely possible for some (and I mean a tiny amount of) guardsmen regiments to HAVE armour that's near-power armour quality. It might not be as good or as protective, but I'm sure there's a regiment out there that could have powered armour that boosts strength to near-Astartes levels.
Sgt_Smudge wrote:So they're filling the same role as current filled by the Space Marines, who do it better anyways (again, even with the features of the armour, the Space Marine's abilities are still being used).
Which frees the Marines to do other tasks, probably of a more stealthy nature. You're effectively doubling the size of your elite forces. And again, as laid out in the OP, a central theme of the contention is that the SM's unique abilities are being quite minimally used, because the PA largely just reproduces the traits already inherent in the Marine.
Spoiler:
Who cares if there's a *tiny* bit of overlap? The Space Marine still makes better use of the armour than the human. The human won't make as efficient use out of it.
Because the PA alone - as described in the lore - would effectively turn a regular human into something approximating a SM, while - again based on the practicality of the way PA and the Marine training/prep is presented - the SM derives very little extra benefit from the armour. You're essentially trading away the opportunity to have a force double the size of the current SM "legions" that is 90-95% as effective individually, just so you can maintain a 50% smaller force at 100% efficiency.
Spoiler:
No different then to Baal, or Fenris, which are equally inimical to human life.
Which undermines your argument, because you've essentially just admitted that many non-SM recruiting worlds produce candidates of a similar level of experience and raw quality.
Spoiler:
The Marine only has to be trained once, and they'll last decades. Guardsmen need to be actually raised longer, take longer to train, are less effective, and die sooner.
A weird argument given that a basic Guardsmen takes significantly less time to train than a marine? Unless you mean if you wanted to put one in a PA suit, in which case being that both are humans they'd take the same amount of time to train, except your average human wouldn't need to waste time with all the genetic implants and you wouldn't be killing a decent chunk of your finest stock through the extensive organ seeding process. The PA then in turn would bring them up very close to the efficiency level of a SM, to the point where the difference would likely be unnoticable in practice.
Spoiler:
Considering that the foremost scientist of, well, ever, the Emperor, has had it so that implantation is done young, I'm inclined to think that it makes more sense that way in the 40k universe.[/quote
Or GW writers are just hacks for the most part.
Spoiler:
But that's why there's multiple Chapters, who often have a large recruiting pool. Again, I still don't know how your system would work.
Unless Chapters are sharing their recruits with each other, which there's no evidence for, then that doesn't help your argument at all vs the ability to hoover up virtually anybody from across the Imperium.
Spoiler:
Yes, I have. And Space Marines have survived those things in their power armour, because even IF the armour is breached, and there's excess damage to go, their superhuman bodies can shrug off a horrific amount of it.
There's a difference between plot armour and the practicality of how a blast that would punch through a Land Raider can penetrate a set of PA, but not the human inside it. If we look at it with any kind of reasonable sense the whole idea falls apart rapidly. Though I do like your use of the word "IF" as if SM armour were considered some sort of gold standard of impenetrable armour.
Spoiler:
However, small arms fire isn't usually the kind of thing that power armour needs to worry about, and enemies that rely on small arms fire are usually threats for the guard to take care of
This blew my mind. I'm not really sure how to answer this. You've genuinely baffled me with that statement and frankly I lost interest in most of what you said after that.
Spoiler:
I'm actually curious as well, does power armour actually boost the motive capabilities of a human to Astartes levels, but the Astartes see no benefit? That doesn't sound right to me
It's a power assisted suit, so in order to be useful (e.g. to lift more than the Marine is capable of) it would have to take over completely, supporting itself in such a way that the human is no longer contributing to the effort. Essentially there would be a cut off point where the PA takes over. If you're on a severely limited fuel supply, that gives the SM more of an advantage, but that thing on their back is basically a mini-reactor that isn't running out of power any time soon. This, again, is a central point of my contention. You have this badass dude with super strong bones, amazing physical strength, incredibly speed and agility, and then you go and put him inside a suit that is more capable than he is and that he has absolutely no reason to not utilise to its maximum potential. There is no scenario short of a power cut where it makes sense for the Marine to use his own raw running speed vs just getting the suit to do the work for him.
If the suit wasn't powered - something more akin to medieval armour but with just some fancy comms - then this wouldn't even be a discussion. The immense strength of the SM would be needed just to move around normally in the suit and it would make total sense. Unfortunately GW couldn't write a birthday card without fething it up.
Mr Morden wrote:Space Marines and Sisters of Battle do wear it as valuable elite front line combatants but also as a powerful status symbol in the Imperium
Somewhat debateable, but I'll give you that one. +1 for the defence.
G00fySmiley wrote:The optics alone on thier rifles cost more than a dozen service rifles.
You need to stop reading Tom Clancy books. Also your description of body armour is the description of most standard issue body armour, albeit somewhat over stating the capabilities. While SF are obviously going to get certain perks, I think you have a wildly over optimistic impression of what they have access to.
bouncingboredom wrote: Which frees the Marines to do other tasks, probably of a more stealthy nature.
Which Scouts and Phobos Marines can do, as well as those same humans you mentioned before. Instead of improving upon your already incredible shock troops, you're creating inferior, budget versions, and using resources less efficiently.
You're effectively doubling the size of your elite forces.
But neither one will be anywhere near close to the sheer power of a fully armoured Space Marine. The unarmoured ones are more susceptible to medium-heavy fire, and the guardsman even with the added assistive benefits of power armour, is inferior to an Astartes all the same - lacking the Black Carapace means the armour is simply less effective for them.
And again, as laid out in the OP, a central theme of the contention is that the SM's unique abilities are being quite minimally used, because the PA largely just reproduces the traits already inherent in the Marine.
However, some of the functions of power armour (enhanced strength, incredibly strong armour plating) are doubly effective on a Space Maine, because they amplify what is already good, to make something that's far beyond what a human wearing it would benefit from.
Essentially, the only real areas of overlap are the respirator, parts of the photolenses (Marines can't see in ultraviolet and infrared without this), and parts of the autosenses (I imagine Marines can intuit range well without the rangefinders, but it's still a nice bonus), as well as any audio-visual dampening effects.
The rest is, as far as I can see, unique.
Because the PA alone - as described in the lore - would effectively turn a regular human into something approximating a SM
Does it? I've seen it make them more powerful, yes, but not *Astartes* powerful, that's still a way off. And in the same vein, an Astartes wearing the armour also gets the enhanced strength (also supported by lore), so you're just wasting resources to make superior humans, and not ultra-powerful Astartes.
while - again based on the practicality of the way PA and the Marine training/prep is presented - the SM derives very little extra benefit from the armour.
A quick look at the effects of the armour as listed, the depiction of it in lore, and the effects of the Space Marine biology, would indicate that, while there is a bit of overlap, it's nowhere near as large as you make it out to be.
The areas that DO overlap can be treated as a redundancy system, which is important for such expensive soldiers.
You're essentially trading away the opportunity to have a force double the size of the current SM "legions" that is 90-95% as effective individually, just so you can maintain a 50% smaller force at 100% efficiency.
Nowhere NEAR 90% efficiency. You're stripping the armour from an Astartes (and as I've said, one in armour is exponentially more capable than one without), and giving to a human who will see 'some' benefit, but even in terms of their strength, will be inferior to an unarmoured Astartes. You're doubling your force size, yes, but you're also slashing the effectiveness of both the Marine and the armour. The only party that isn't being wasted here is the human, who's life is cheap.
Which undermines your argument, because you've essentially just admitted that many non-SM recruiting worlds produce candidates of a similar level of experience and raw quality.
They absolutely do. However, barring extenuating circumstances, Space Marine Chapters don't seem to struggle with getting enough suitable candidates anyway, and there doesn't seem to be any issue of needing to skimp on quality. They reliably get good quality recruits, barring times when the Chapter suffers catastrophic losses.
A weird argument given that a basic Guardsmen takes significantly less time to train than a marine?
Because a basic guardsman is taught to hold their gun, not tear eachother to pieces, and basic battlefield commands, not how to use power armour, use the variety of superhuman abilities, and have a grasp of tactics equal to senior level guard officers?
Of course guardsmen will be training for shorter, because they're barely trained compared to the Space Marine. But when you're trying to get those guardsmen to do the same things the Marine is, then the guardsmen will take longer. Firstly, a few more years extra, because the guardsman is recruited later in life. Then, the training for their armour and how to use it effectively - you *might* be able to shave off some time by not surgically enhancing the guardsman (I'll come back to this), but then they're lacking a lot of the various brain augmentations that make Astartes hypnotherapy more effective. Combine that with the higher mortality rate of said guardsmen compared to the Space Marine, and now you're wasting more time training and suiting up another guardsman, while the Space Marine is still going strong and working as intended.
Unless you mean if you wanted to put one in a PA suit, in which case being that both are humans they'd take the same amount of time to train, except your average human wouldn't need to waste time with all the genetic implants and you wouldn't be killing a decent chunk of your finest stock through the extensive organ seeding process.
As said above, Astartes don't seem to have a shortage on stock. Plus, the implants are largely what makes the power armour so much more effective. The Black Carapace, for example, makes the armour more like a second skin. Indeed, Imperial Armour 10 states that "The true genius of the design, however, lies in its close integration with the already superhuman physiology, senses and reflexes of the Space Marine within. Working in concert, armour and Astartes together become a weapon without equal."
The PA then in turn would bring them up very close to the efficiency level of a SM, to the point where the difference would likely be unnoticable in practice.
What kind of lore have you been reading that says they end up anywhere near SM level?
Or GW writers are just hacks for the most part.
Well, that's canon for ya.
Unless Chapters are sharing their recruits with each other, which there's no evidence for, then that doesn't help your argument at all vs the ability to hoover up virtually anybody from across the Imperium.
Actually, in calamity, they sometimes do pool resources. See 'Last Wall Protocol' and the events of the Devastation of Baal, and aftermath of the Battle of Macragge. In all cases, Chapters banded together to supply recruits, extra brothers, and resources in calamitous situations, which is the only time Astartes have been shown to struggle with their recruitment drives.
There's a difference between plot armour and the practicality of how a blast that would punch through a Land Raider can penetrate a set of PA, but not the human inside it.
Of course it can punch through a Land Raider - doesn't mean it'll kill it in one shot. Same as the Astartes. He's tough enough to lose a limb or survive the weakened remainder of the damage - a human couldn't. Besides, this is 40k. Complaining about plot armour is kinda futile.
If we look at it with any kind of reasonable sense the whole idea falls apart rapidly. Though I do like your use of the word "IF" as if SM armour were considered some sort of gold standard of impenetrable armour.
Again, I'm just going off of what I'm seeing in the lore. Space Marines survive the damage from armour-killing weapons because of their innate durability even under the armour.
This blew my mind. I'm not really sure how to answer this. You've genuinely baffled me with that statement and frankly I lost interest in most of what you said after that.
What about it blew your mind?
Clearly Space Marines are incredibly resilient against small arms fire. However, the enemies that would be carrying small arms are low tier ones. Would you waste the Astartes on killing weak tier enemies? Obviously not.
It's a power assisted suit, so in order to be useful (e.g. to lift more than the Marine is capable of) it would have to take over completely, supporting itself in such a way that the human is no longer contributing to the effort. Essentially there would be a cut off point where the PA takes over. If you're on a severely limited fuel supply, that gives the SM more of an advantage, but that thing on their back is basically a mini-reactor that isn't running out of power any time soon. This, again, is a central point of my contention. You have this badass dude with super strong bones, amazing physical strength, incredibly speed and agility, and then you go and put him inside a suit that is more capable than he is and that he has absolutely no reason to not utilise to its maximum potential. There is no scenario short of a power cut where it makes sense for the Marine to use his own raw running speed vs just getting the suit to do the work for him.
See, this was 'okay' until the bolded part. This is not true. There is nowhere in 40k lore where I've seen that the armour itself innately is better than the Astartes.
Perhaps you misunderstand the effects of power armour, but it's an amplifier, not simple motive force on it's own accord. It doesn't just produce a flat amount of strength, otherwise we'd see Sisters pulling off the same kind of feats (and we don't). It enhances the existing strength of the user, so if a guardsman got, say, a medium boost to strength, a Space Marine would get a large boost to their strength, as it amplifies the effects. It is *always* described as "augmenting the physical strength of the user" - considering that the Space Marines are the main users of the armour, this line makes no sense if it didn't already enhance their power.
If the suit wasn't powered - something more akin to medieval armour but with just some fancy comms - then this wouldn't even be a discussion. The immense strength of the SM would be needed just to move around normally in the suit and it would make total sense. Unfortunately GW couldn't write a birthday card without fething it up.
Again, I'd like to point out that the Space Marines also get augmented strength in the armour, which would mean their strength IS useful (as the power armour amplifies that, instead of basic human strength).
If this is a game play question for 8th edition it's simply because if you want guardmen in power armour enjoy 13 points per guardsmen.
If its a fluff question it's realy because GW hasn't been great at consistent
Their seems to be a fundamental issue with how and what people understand power armour to do. Part I'm sure is due to GW having been horribly inconsistent over the years about exactly what does what and how it does things.
I'm going to start from the timeline begining in my understanding
Power armour didn't start as anything close to what it is today
It was the evolution of armour the Thunderwarriors had worn
It evolved fairly rapidly during the crusade as the imperium learnt the hard way the weakness of the armour and the actual requirements for the battlefields.
The issue was the HH locked the imperium inyo a dogmatic and burocratic nothing can be changed and no one individual should have power as they could be the next horus.
But to the questiom at hand.
Look at the HH lore for terminators and the issues with it, it was supposed to replace PA completely but that idea had issue which highlights one of the main advanatages of having a marine in PA over a guardsmen.
One of the quickest ways to incapacite a terminator armour suit was to takeout its powercore. As it requires a full exoskeleton and power for even a marine to be functional in it.
The same would go for a guardsmen in PA without power he is dead no movement not fighting just a target waiting to die and it's not like PA is something you can just throw off.
A marine on the other hand can still fight less efficently and slower but can still remain combat capable.
As to the Custodes and Sisters of Silence their armour has more in comon with each other than they do with Space Marine powerarmour.
The SoB on the otherhand had always a far bulkier more spacemarine scale to them that implied that give the squishy center is far smaller the rest of the space must be taken up by additional armour system such as additional fiber bundels and structure to support it's own weight.
Xenomancers wrote: Flak armor is basically kevlar...it is close to useless against laser weapons.
Incorrect. Flak armor is not kevlar. It's an advanced weave of multiple kinds of ablative, impact-absorbent, and cut-absorbent material. Flak armor is fine against infantry-grade energy weapons like lasguns (bearing in mind lasguns are actually ridiculously high power by modern standards, more powerful than modern assault rifles, and only weak by 40k standards). It's against energy weapons that overwhelm its ablative aspect, like lascannons or plasmaguns, that flak armor fails. If a modern army adopted flak armor they'd cut the losses their soldiers take massively while also reducing the weight they have to carry to get that kind of protection.
In a modern setting, flak armor would be a miracle armor and would necessitate a massive surge in weapons technology to counter it.
G00fySmiley wrote:The optics alone on thier rifles cost more than a dozen service rifles.
You need to stop reading Tom Clancy books. Also your description of body armour is the description of most standard issue body armour, albeit somewhat over stating the capabilities. While SF are obviously going to get certain perks, I think you have a wildly over optimistic impression of what they have access to.
Have never read a tom clancy novel in my life, but I have been working with building firearms for going on 30 years, A basically drop proof waterproof fogproof nightvision/infrared optic is still in the $10-15k range. Standard issue M4 costs ~$700 .... so. though the newer rifles they are goign with, the M27 runs ~1300 per rifle, so closer to 10 of them for a top of the line optic.
I will say though the ore I think about power armor or better armor for infantry level imperial guardsmen I do wonder how much the "this is what the Emperor issued us when our planet was brought into compliance" applies
bouncingboredom wrote: However, some of the functions of power armour (enhanced strength...) are doubly effective on a Space Maine, because they amplify what is already good
I'm going to save myself the effort of going through the rest of your post by simply pointing out that based on this sentence it's clear you don't understand how a power assisted suit would work in practice and this is likely what's causing you to make so many wild claims. You need to understand that in a power assisted suit there will be a point where the strength of the Marine is insufficient and the armour will have to take over completely. 100%. The suit has what is for all intents and purposes an inexhuastable supply of power connected to it. There is literally no reason, none, for a SM not to use the PA 100% of the time to do all the work, thereby making the vast majority of his implants/upgrades entirely redundant and pointless.
This is caused by GW being horribly at writing.
G00fySmiley wrote:A basically drop proof waterproof fogproof nightvision/infrared optic is still in the $10-15k range
As a rule spec ops guys are not running around with super advanced sights on their weapons. The bulk of the photos/videos we see show them using what are basically the same optics as everyone else. You'd like to think a government would pour funding into supporting their special forces, and indeed just their general forces, but the reality of the world is that this very seldom happens because it's simply not efficient to do so.
Additionally, the guardsman is more likely to die of old age - far earlier than the Marine.
Not just die of old age, but a guardsman's combat efficiency will drop sharply past the age of 40, so you get at best a good 25 years (assuming recruitment at 15), though anybody surviving 25 years in the guard is a canny soldier. OTOH, a Space Marine doesn't decline much with age at all, and even if they do it's after centuries of warfare.
Most Guardsmen won't live to see 40, unless they are recruited at that age. The average life expectancy of a replacement in the combat zone is fifteen hours. That's why IG Veterans are so highly valued, organized into their own units, and get special equipment from the Munitorum (though many reject the nicer carapace armor and hellguns for standard issue IG gear). They beat the odds and have years of combat experience, without the fancy gear and top-flite training of the Militarum Tempestus. They are also the few Guardsmen that tend to get away with killing Commisars/officers, threatening Inquisitors, and being less than worshipful of Astartes.
The truth about the Astartes is that they do tend to die in droves, even with their better equipment. Especially against serious opponents, like the Necrons or Tyranids. And in the age of the Cicatrix Maledictum, they were being hard pressed. The threat level in the Imperium after Cadia 's fall was enough that Guilliman activated the Primaris project to meet the challenge. That's one indication that the old school Astartes are no longer the absolute cream of the crop.
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Because, hey, we’ve gone to the trouble of locating and training these elite humans to use this power armor stuff, wouldn’t it be cool to augment them so they”re even better and we get more value out of the training?
