Starting this thread as the last one is now over the necroposting limit.

With a focus purely on minis, how would you revamp the IG model line if you were put in charge of such things? I personally- ignoring that this would be damned expensive- would introduce 2 new lines, and 6 new kits.

Short-coated guard would be initially released with infantry/HWT/Command kits, initially as steel legion. The same for longcoated guard, but for Valhallan.
At the same time, I would release upgrade sprues, for the both new lines, and the preexisting Cadian/Catachan.

For Short-Coated guard, I would release a Tallarn upgrade, with heads and appropriate parts. For Long-Coated, I would release new heads/torsos for Vostroyan, and new heads/torsos for Savlar chem-dogs (repurposed parts from the Genestealers kit).

Then, upgrade kits for Cadians; new heads/torsos for Mordians and Praetorians. For Catachans, new weapon options and parts for Armageddon Ork Hunters.

Obviously this will never happen, but a guy can dream.

That was quite a rambling post. Sorry.

GW's gotten pretty good at releasing multi-unit kits. With Skitarii, for example, you get a duplicate set of arms and a duplicate set of heads as part of the core box. So, rather than just upgrade kits, I could see them doing a core infantry set that can be built as multiple regiments through alternate parts.

I would see a kit being something like this:

-A single set of weapon arms
-Optional shoulder pads
-Armored and unarmored torsos
-A single set of tunic legs
-Cadian and Steel Legion heads

That gives you the ability to build either Cadians or Steel Legion from the core set, differentiated by shoulder pads, torsos, and heads.

From there, upgrade sprues for the remaining regiments are pretty straightforward:

Mordians/Praetorians: Heads and shoulder epaulettes
Valhallans/Vostroyans: Heads and legs
Tallarn: Heads and backpacks (based on this art)

This leaves out Catachans, who I guess would probably form the core of a 'streamlined' aesthetic (fatigues and bare arms), with potential options for Kanak or Tanith.

I get that detailing in 28mm Heroic plastic isn't super easy but I'd make the models a little more combatty and less dress uniformy. I get the idea behind units like the Mordians et al but even the Cadian and Catachan figures are real light on actual combat equipment.

Same with the Marines TBH.

I would very much like the idea of plastic Praetorians, that's what my IG army is and with scale creep my original metal Praetorians look like children next to my plastic Cadians.

I'd also like to see separate equipment/head sprues available. Maybe some autogun setups, or different pattern lasguns and things like backpacks. And different heads.

I get that keeping costs down is important so they can't ship a stack of sprues with all different options in them, I do like the idea of a couple of core unit designs but what I'd REALLY like to see is their online ordering ramped back up to near what it used to be.

Want Mordian torsos with Catachan legs with Autogun weapons and Praetorian heads? Click these drop downs and ta dah! It arrives.

I've still got a Corteaz Daemon hammer and Grimnar terminator body from when I ordered the bitz to build a custom project. But wholsesale, and large scale. But now with a whole squad or army even.

 DalekCheese wrote:
Starting this thread as the last one is now over the necroposting limit.

With a focus purely on minis, how would you revamp the IG model line if you were put in charge of such things? I personally- ignoring that this would be damned expensive- would introduce 2 new lines, and 6 new kits.

Short-coated guard would be initially released with infantry/HWT/Command kits, initially as steel legion. The same for longcoated guard, but for Valhallan.
At the same time, I would release upgrade sprues, for the both new lines, and the preexisting Cadian/Catachan.

For Short-Coated guard, I would release a Tallarn upgrade, with heads and appropriate parts. For Long-Coated, I would release new heads/torsos for Vostroyan, and new heads/torsos for Savlar chem-dogs (repurposed parts from the Genestealers kit).

Then, upgrade kits for Cadians; new heads/torsos for Mordians and Praetorians. For Catachans, new weapon options and parts for Armageddon Ork Hunters.

Obviously this will never happen, but a guy can dream.

That was quite a rambling post. Sorry.

I would do one new "Universal Main Infantry" kit, to replace Cadians and cover almost all the others except Catachan.

It would have:

10 plate carrier torsos basically like the current ones. Importantly, like the current ones, they need to interface with a universal set of legs. Cutting at the belt is probably a still a good idea. 5 male torsos, 5 female torsos.

10 "tunic" legs that complete the look of the modern Cadian, [or Mordian, or Praetorian, or any other "short coated" guardsman].
10 "greatcoat" legs that complete the look of a winter greatcoat
The leg sets should interface with torso basically like the modern ones do, so it looks seamless whether you have a long coat or a short coat & pants. Some of the legs should be kneeling, some of them should be running, some of them should be standing. About 5 different poses should do.

11 modern helmeted heads. (10+1 vox) Some should have sunglasses. The vox head isn't really idetifiable, but the other heads should be half & half male/female
12 ushanka heads. (6+1 headset female, 6+1 headset male)
11 gas-masked & stahlhelm heads. (10+1 vox)
"Enough" unhelmeted heads, at least one male and one female with a headset, the rest for sergeants so there's enough unique looking sergeants.
Modern, Gas Masks, and Furry Hats should basically cover the popular IG themes & looks. Other heads could be "IG Infantry upgrade sprues" like the SM chapter upgrade sprues, which would really allow you to go wild with having different kinds of IG uniform headgear.

12 Lasguns. Or at least more than 10, some with bayonets, some without. One lasgun arm should have a sergeant's patch.
1 Chainsword
1 Power Sword
1 Power Fist
1 Plasma Pistol
1 Laspistol
1 Boltgun
1 Vox Caster with an arm options to be holding the mic or to use the helmet voice box
1 Meltagun, 1 Plasmagun, 1 Grenade Launcher, 1 Flamer.

10 Rucksacks. Important features: bedrolls, e-tools, mess kit
Frag Grenades, extra ammo, and canteens for everybody

Soldier Crap. For decorating bases, decorating tanks, decorating objectives, or just having guys carry around with them. Extra lasguns, ammo boxes, loose E-tools, cigarettes and card boxes, ration boxes, discarded magazines, helmets, etc.



1 new "Universal Command Squad" kit:
Basically the same options as the current command squad kit, but with the head & leg options of the Universal Infantry Kit, and a good number of female torsos and heads for the officers.
And even more soldier gak, enough to decorate a command post, like map tubes, those funny periscope binoculars, sand bags, etc.


1 newish "Universal Heavy Weapons" kit:
Use the same weapons sprue, but add legs and heads to the infantry sprue.



One new Vehicle Artillery kit:
It would build:
Basilisk
Medusa
Griffon
Colossus
It would have no less than 4 crew torsos in CVC gear, mixed male & female, doing different things [aiming, loading, setting fuses, checking a chart, etc.] with a healthy collection of heads with vehicle crew headgear [CVC helmets, tanker hats, etc]
It would have a big pile of "tank crap". All the aforementioned "soldier crap" & rucksacks, plus TRACKS, tow cables, track breaking tools, sandbags, fuel barrels, jerry cans, etc.




A number of "Infantry Platoon Upgrade Sprues". These would have like ~50 mixed male/female heads with a special kind of headgear [including several associated officer & radio heads] and a little bit of soldier crap.
Options: US M1 Helmets, Commonwealth brimmed helmets, Berets, Cavalry Stetsons, Plinth Helmets, Caps, Turbans, etc.



A "Tank Crap Sprue"
It's got tank crap for Chimerae and for Leman Russes. Extra tracks, schurzen and/or slat armors, sandbags, tow lines, jerry cans, extra lasguns, the crew's belongings, spare road wheels, and a bunch of options for tank commanders [male and female] both standing out of their hatch and with just their head sticking out. Different poses for them too, including "firing the heavy stubber/storm bolter", "spotting with binoculars", and "just looking around". Possibly include an option for even more guns to be fitted to the tank like the M2 that M4's have mounted for infantry to use.

Nothing that looks "modern" or "World War II". No stetsons. No pith helmets.That trash is for Infinity and their nonsensical tropes, not for 40k.

With that out of the way, there is no realistic way to discuss how to redo the model line without talking about rules as well as models. The looks and gear are too intrinsically linked to realistically discuss this without going too crazy.
Scrap the book's setup for <Regiment> units. No more "infantry squad" or "veteran squad" or "heavy weapon squad" or "special weapon squad". It's now broken down into "Conscripts"/"Honor Guard" styles(Troops choice with no armor, just a uniform and a rifle--6+ saves. These would be your Valhallans, Mordians, Praetorians, whatever style of infantry. Theoretically, Conscripts and HG could be split into two distinctive profiles but we won't go that far tonight), "Light Infantry"(Troops choice--think Tanith/Belladon/Steel Legion. They'd have a flak vest with no pauldrons or leg protection--some might have helmets but mostly you'd be seeing forage caps or bared heads--6+ saves but with a negative modifier to being hit while in cover), "Mainline Infantry"(Troops choice--Current Cadian level of protection--pauldrons, vest, helmets--5+ saves and an ability to 'dig in' for a cover save) and "Grenadiers"(Kasrkin/Vostroyan levels of protection. Troops choice with some weird kit so they do not directly compete with Scions--4+ save with Smoke Grenades as an option). Look at the Sabbat Worlds Crusade book, Black Crusade book, and the various art we've seen over the years to see a good example for how one should expect these things to look. LI, MI, and Grenadiers all come standard with Laspistols, CCWs, and Lasguns--'Conscripts' don't.

I'm sure some of your first thoughts are: "But how do Guard work then?! We lose our Heavy Weapon Squads! We lose our Special Weapon Squads!". Frankly, it's time those things got ditched. It's time to see something interesting and different start manifesting with Guard. This is a good time for a start to it.

'Conscript' level squads: 10 models, laslocks(24" S3 AP-1 Rapid Fire 2 if the unit is stationary for that turn's Movement but can't be FRFSRF'd if we leave Orders as is or longer range and Rapid Fire 1) instead of lasguns, 2 in 5 can take grenade launchers instead of their laslocks or demolition charges instead of their laslocks and CCWs. No 'Sergeant' equivalents baseline--can purchase one. SEQ gets access to 'Sergeant Weapons'(CCWs and Pistols fall into this category) and is an additional model to the squad, not a replacement for a model in the squad(to avoid the nonsense of 'bUt yOu cAn'T hAvE aLl ThOsE sPeCiaL wEaPoNs BeCaUsE sErGeAnTs ArEn'T a NoRmAl TrOoPeR!!!!" even remotely cropping up).

'Light Infantry' squads: 10 models, lasguns(as they are now) all around (including Sergeants). Can Infiltrate with a Stratagem. 2 in 10 models can take special issue weapons(heavy stubber with a bipod that can be carried by one guy, missile launchers, sniper/marksman rifles, flamers, plasma, melta, etc would be classified under these) . An additional 2 Guardsmen on a single base can be purchased for the squad as a 'Fire Support Team' that gets placed as a separate unit. FST gets access to the stuff we all know and love right now: lascannons, heavy bolters, autocannons, and mortars...and the weapons all gain a 'move OR fire' trait instead of simply being Heavy. Sergeant gets access to the Sergeant Weapons but baseline are equipped with lasguns.

'Mainline Infantry Squads' have the same Special Issue Weapon Options as the Light Infantry Squads--but get access to two Fire Support Teams rather than one. Additionally, can swap their Lasguns for Heavy Lasguns(a thing we've had in the fluff but never really have had as part of the game) for an additional 6" of range and 'on hit rolls of 6' ability that causes a Wound without you needing to roll to Wound at the sacrifice of not getting to to use their additional shot for FRFSRF purposes(so you'd get 3 shots rather than 4). Sergeants get access to the Sergeant weapons, come baseline with lasguns. Can purchase a Heavy Lasgun.

Grenadiers are going to be where things get weird. The goal is to create a distinctive unit that isn't just Scions But With <Regiment>. So no native Deep Strike or Infiltrate. With that stated, they come standard with Hellguns which will be S4 AP-1 D1 and are Assault 3 or Pistol 3. There's no Fire Support Team squad options in this case. Instead, the squad will be limited to a 'unique' pattern(call it Anvilus or something--there's Forge Worlds that specialize in weird stuff like this) of Heavy Bolter, Autocannon, or Heavy Stubber. In all 3 instances they're classified as 'Assault' weapons and can Move and Fire but have half the range of their Fire Support Team variants...and are bespoked options on the unit rather than part of Special Issue Weapons. The standard Special Issue Weapons are additionally available to the squad.

Now here's where we start to get into fun options!
Light Infantry theme? That's where we might see Fast Attack or Elite choices show up. Stuff like Sniper Teams(60mm based, get access to artillery spotting ala Master of Ordnance but aren't characters. Purchased as a 1-3 'unit' that can split off and get deployed ala vehicle squadrons. If stationary, can treat their rifles as rapid fire instead of heavy), Reconnaissance/Saboteur Teams with Infiltrate natively available and abilities allowing you to mine the field up.
Mainline Infantry theme? These would be the basis for our new versions of Heavy Support options: Rapier Motorized Carriages and Sabre Defense Platforms.
Grenadiers would get an Elite Command Squad deal, wherein they can issue Orders as though they're Officers.

And because I mentioned Scions, I'd additionally add a few things for them to boot. There's a gorgeous layout in the Sabbat book of a Volpone Blueblood officer that would be a perfect inspiration for a Scion Rough Rider setup or an Elite bodyguard squad for Commissars.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Nothing that looks "modern" or "World War II". No stetsons. No pith helmets.That trash is for Infinity and their nonsensical tropes, not for 40k.

Uhh... War Movies has been the IG theme for like forever. It's literally what defines the IG as a faction in the world of 40k, being War Movie Tropes in space, and it's what's defined them since they're very inception back in like 1989.
Hell, "trope overdosed" is what defines 40k. It's like how 40k factions are made: "reach into the bag, grab out uh...."


What are you expecting for aesthetics to "avert trash tropes"? [that are not in fact seen in infinity, because Infinity looks like generic Halo Modern Block Greebled Power Armor]

Well, I'll give the response everyone on Dakka will hate.

IG dex + supplements for each regiment.

Rough riders return- given that AM is getting cavalry, I think this is guaranteed to happen. Those things are going to sell like N-95's.

One unique vehicle variant for each regiment. One box for each regiment that builds, Troops, Vets, Heavies or Specials, but ALL very distinctly regimental.
More guard fliers. Might only need one, but since I like lots, lets go for two- one would be a bomber and one would be a fighter since we've already got a Transport. Keep these generic rather than regiment locking them.All three flyers sold as an Airwing box set with a plastic master of the fleet. While we're at it, plastic up the other advisors too.

New Wyrdvanes and a new Primaris Psyker, though keep the old one too because he rules.

I want a new HQ who is an Abhuman Auxiilia officer; the box is dual build- one variant designed to work with Ogryns and another to work with Ratlings. Aww heck, you know what? Release a box of Squats and add a third option to the officer kit designed to work with them. We're wishlisting, right?

BTW, that Squat box is a viability test for GW to give them a small codex release of roughly the same size as Harlequins or Custodes, but that's a topic for another thread.

Oh yeah, here's the best part; regiment boxes are also available as kill teams with each box containing a unique sculpt for a leader- Platoon commander level, because that's the other thing you have to bring back. Having only company level HQ makes it hard to play guard in properly scaled escalation campaigns. The kill teams would be released first; their models would be monopose. 2-3 months after release, the multipart regiment boxes drop with the dex. The unique new kits with each regiment drop with that regiment's supplement.

I don't have my dex to hand- lent it to a friend- but I liked Special weapon teams- drop two in Chimera and you're good to go. They also fit in the Chimera with a command squad. Ditto on valkyries- love those capacity 12 vehicles. With guard's inferior BS, it helps to have extra shots on specials, so three in a unit with only three regular troopers as a tax... Just not sure why you want to get rid of that. It's just so flexible to have multiple MSU combinations that share transports.

As for heavy weapons teams, I think that's wicked characterful that it takes two standard humans to operate the same equipment as a lone Devastator. I'm less attached to them than my specials, but I do think they are iconic.

As for vets, they could use a set of veteran abilities like Aspect warriors have and Harlequin characters are getting. Fix' em. Don't cut' em.

Basically, if you want honour guard, let's go ahead and make those. You want a dedicated box for conscripts? Okay, let's do that too. Personally, I also would like penal legion troopers with explosive collars to take it back to Rogue Trader days, and I don't think they would be regiment locked, because no regiment would want to taint their uniforms. But why does it have to come at the expense of special weapons squads, vets and heavy teams?

The way forward is more. Not less.

PenitentJake wrote:
Well, I'll give the response everyone on Dakka will hate.

IG dex + supplements for each regiment.

One unique vehicle variant for each regiment. One box for each regiment that builds, Troops, Vets, Heavies or Specials, but ALL very distinctly regimental.

Rough riders return- given that AM is getting cavalry, I think this is guaranteed to happen. Those things are going to sell like N-95's.

More guard fliers. Might only need one, but since I like lots, lets go for two- one would be a bomber and one would be a fighter since we've already got a Transport.

All three flyers sold as an Airwing box set with a plastic master of the fleet. While we're at it, plastic up the other advisors too.

New Wyrdvanes and a new Primaris, though keep the old primaris in circulation too because he rules.

Oh yeah, here's the best part; regiment boxes are also available as kill teams with each box containing a unique sculpt for a leader- Platoon commander level, because that's the other thing you have to bring back. Having only company level HQ makes it hard to play guard in properly scaled escalation campaigns.

The kill teams would be released first; their models would be monopose. 2-3 months after release, the multipart regiment boxes drop with the dex. The unique new kits with each regiment drop with that regiment's supplement.

The way forward is more. Not less.

Space Marines don't overtax the supply chain by having four different base Codexes because all four of them have 90%+ identical models, and the basic core models for all of them are identical. Trying to do sub-faction Codexes with different infantry ranges would be hilariously impractical.

Just redo the line and make it one group al a "Solar Auxillia" in 30K. Go with that look or something similar.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Nothing that looks "modern" or "World War II". No stetsons. No pith helmets.That trash is for Infinity and their nonsensical tropes, not for 40k.

What does that leave you with?
Cadians are pretty modern.
Catachan are pretty Vietnam trope.
Praetorians are pretty Zulu movie trope. And pith helmets were fairly widely used military equipment in some areas.
DKoK are pretty WWI tropey.
Rough Riders are Lawrence of Arabia in Space.
Mordian are USMC A1's in Space.
Vostroyans are French Imperial Guard from the 1800's with scifi bits and an attitude, in Space.

Who've I missed out? Aanyway, you get the gists. Each army has it's own niche trope and that's how they came about.

Stetsons? No, but Boonie hats? Slouch hats? The requirements to protect people from sunlight hasn't changed much in 40 000 years. If you don't want helmets then why not a rimmed hat?

I would love to have the ability to produce light or heavy infantry from the same box but in all honesty I'd just prefer a way of "realistically" representing First, Second and Third line gear loudouts.

{EDIT not Rough Riders, Tallarn are Lawrence of Arabia. Damn it. Original Rough Riders are semi Mongol.}

Kayback wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Nothing that looks "modern" or "World War II". No stetsons. No pith helmets.That trash is for Infinity and their nonsensical tropes, not for 40k.

What does that leave you with?

Savlar Chem-dogs

Seriously, hear me out - GW wants their marines cleaner, the easiest way to do that is contrast them with some real scum of the Guard. Lots of rebreathers, backpacks and bags, ragged looking clothing, etc. A new infantry kit and an easy tie-in with new trench or penal colony terrain.

First and foremost they would need to get the scale right.

Imo, given their popularity, plastic multipart DKoK kits are way overdue.

Looks as if Catachans may be on the long term horizon given some of the tester models of late...Marbo and the revealed Captain (or whatever he is)

Interesting, there seems to be a lot of desire for one highly modular box, as opposed to multiple boxes. I personally don’t particularly like the idea of homogenising the Guard.

 DalekCheese wrote:
Interesting, there seems to be a lot of desire for one highly modular box, as opposed to multiple boxes. I personally don’t particularly like the idea of homogenising the Guard.

The thing behind a single, highly modular box is you could customize it how you want. With what they have now you're stuck with what you get and kitbashing requires multiple purchases (which is why I don't think we'll ever see a single box with options).

Being customizable would produce less homogenization IMHO. Currently my Praetorian army looks like Cadians in funny colours because that's exactly what it is outside of a single squad of original run of white metal Praetorians.THAT's homogenization for you.

I would go with a "Less is More" approach:
- One type of appearance, resembling the metal Cadian models: thick jackets, no hard armor other than the small shoulder pads, simpler helmets, and more energy-weapon-looking lasguns. They would retain the new Cadian belt gear bits (the flask, grenade, and ammo pouch) and they would be split up like the plastic Catachans: head, torso, legs, two arms, and a separate gun.
- The basic Infantry Squad kit would be 10 standard guys, 1 extra torso with a tactical sling backpack, 1 extra head with a gasmask, 1 extra head with a hat, 1 extra arm holding a sword, 1 extra arm holding a laspistol, and 1 of each special weapon (flamer, grenade launcher, sniper rifle, meltagun, plasma gun).
- The Heavy Weapons Squad kit would be 6 guys with crouching legs, 1 extra pointing arm, 1 extra binocular-holding arm, 1 extra ammo feeding arm, 1 extra head with a gasmask, 1 of each heavy weapon (mortar, heavy bolter, autocannon, missile launcher, lascannon), 3 small boxes, and 3 small sandbag piles.
- The Command Squad kit would be 5 guys with extra parts for a medic, a standard-bearer, and an officer. The kit would come with all the options for the officer (pistols and melee weapons).
- Each kit would also contain some extra bits like a vox-caster, purity seals, etc.

These kits would be easy to make and quick to sell, perfect for GW. The players would have their new models and plenty of options to convert due to the kits' simplicity.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Nothing that looks "modern" or "World War II". No stetsons. No pith helmets.That trash is for Infinity and their nonsensical tropes, not for 40k.

With that out of the way, there is no realistic way to discuss how to redo the model line without talking about rules as well as models.

Spoiler:

The looks and gear are too intrinsically linked to realistically discuss this without going too crazy.
Scrap the book's setup for <Regiment> units. No more "infantry squad" or "veteran squad" or "heavy weapon squad" or "special weapon squad". It's now broken down into "Conscripts"/"Honor Guard" styles(Troops choice with no armor, just a uniform and a rifle--6+ saves. These would be your Valhallans, Mordians, Praetorians, whatever style of infantry. Theoretically, Conscripts and HG could be split into two distinctive profiles but we won't go that far tonight), "Light Infantry"(Troops choice--think Tanith/Belladon/Steel Legion. They'd have a flak vest with no pauldrons or leg protection--some might have helmets but mostly you'd be seeing forage caps or bared heads--6+ saves but with a negative modifier to being hit while in cover), "Mainline Infantry"(Troops choice--Current Cadian level of protection--pauldrons, vest, helmets--5+ saves and an ability to 'dig in' for a cover save) and "Grenadiers"(Kasrkin/Vostroyan levels of protection. Troops choice with some weird kit so they do not directly compete with Scions--4+ save with Smoke Grenades as an option). Look at the Sabbat Worlds Crusade book, Black Crusade book, and the various art we've seen over the years to see a good example for how one should expect these things to look. LI, MI, and Grenadiers all come standard with Laspistols, CCWs, and Lasguns--'Conscripts' don't.

I'm sure some of your first thoughts are: "But how do Guard work then?! We lose our Heavy Weapon Squads! We lose our Special Weapon Squads!". Frankly, it's time those things got ditched. It's time to see something interesting and different start manifesting with Guard. This is a good time for a start to it.

'Conscript' level squads: 10 models, laslocks(24" S3 AP-1 Rapid Fire 2 if the unit is stationary for that turn's Movement but can't be FRFSRF'd if we leave Orders as is or longer range and Rapid Fire 1) instead of lasguns, 2 in 5 can take grenade launchers instead of their laslocks or demolition charges instead of their laslocks and CCWs. No 'Sergeant' equivalents baseline--can purchase one. SEQ gets access to 'Sergeant Weapons'(CCWs and Pistols fall into this category) and is an additional model to the squad, not a replacement for a model in the squad(to avoid the nonsense of 'bUt yOu cAn'T hAvE aLl ThOsE sPeCiaL wEaPoNs BeCaUsE sErGeAnTs ArEn'T a NoRmAl TrOoPeR!!!!" even remotely cropping up).

'Light Infantry' squads: 10 models, lasguns(as they are now) all around (including Sergeants). Can Infiltrate with a Stratagem. 2 in 10 models can take special issue weapons(heavy stubber with a bipod that can be carried by one guy, missile launchers, sniper/marksman rifles, flamers, plasma, melta, etc would be classified under these) . An additional 2 Guardsmen on a single base can be purchased for the squad as a 'Fire Support Team' that gets placed as a separate unit. FST gets access to the stuff we all know and love right now: lascannons, heavy bolters, autocannons, and mortars...and the weapons all gain a 'move OR fire' trait instead of simply being Heavy. Sergeant gets access to the Sergeant Weapons but baseline are equipped with lasguns.

'Mainline Infantry Squads' have the same Special Issue Weapon Options as the Light Infantry Squads--but get access to two Fire Support Teams rather than one. Additionally, can swap their Lasguns for Heavy Lasguns(a thing we've had in the fluff but never really have had as part of the game) for an additional 6" of range and 'on hit rolls of 6' ability that causes a Wound without you needing to roll to Wound at the sacrifice of not getting to to use their additional shot for FRFSRF purposes(so you'd get 3 shots rather than 4). Sergeants get access to the Sergeant weapons, come baseline with lasguns. Can purchase a Heavy Lasgun.

Grenadiers are going to be where things get weird. The goal is to create a distinctive unit that isn't just Scions But With <Regiment>. So no native Deep Strike or Infiltrate. With that stated, they come standard with Hellguns which will be S4 AP-1 D1 and are Assault 3 or Pistol 3. There's no Fire Support Team squad options in this case. Instead, the squad will be limited to a 'unique' pattern(call it Anvilus or something--there's Forge Worlds that specialize in weird stuff like this) of Heavy Bolter, Autocannon, or Heavy Stubber. In all 3 instances they're classified as 'Assault' weapons and can Move and Fire but have half the range of their Fire Support Team variants...and are bespoked options on the unit rather than part of Special Issue Weapons. The standard Special Issue Weapons are additionally available to the squad.

Now here's where we start to get into fun options!
Light Infantry theme? That's where we might see Fast Attack or Elite choices show up. Stuff like Sniper Teams(60mm based, get access to artillery spotting ala Master of Ordnance but aren't characters. Purchased as a 1-3 'unit' that can split off and get deployed ala vehicle squadrons. If stationary, can treat their rifles as rapid fire instead of heavy), Reconnaissance/Saboteur Teams with Infiltrate natively available and abilities allowing you to mine the field up.
Mainline Infantry theme? These would be the basis for our new versions of Heavy Support options: Rapier Motorized Carriages and Sabre Defense Platforms.
Grenadiers would get an Elite Command Squad deal, wherein they can issue Orders as though they're Officers.

And because I mentioned Scions, I'd additionally add a few things for them to boot. There's a gorgeous layout in the Sabbat book of a Volpone Blueblood officer that would be a perfect inspiration for a Scion Rough Rider setup or an Elite bodyguard squad for Commissars.

I think that we can look at changing models without changing rules. I don't really want to shelve my army. I am also quite conflicted about your opening lines. I think the only thing we can all agree on is that AM Infantry should cost 5 ppm.

Regarding aesthetics, I am of several minds. When I started out collecting IG in 1996 I went with Cadians. I'm a soldier, and they looked like fairly modern soldiers. I came to 40K from historicals (and "modern") but those were mostly 1:285th and 20mm scale. There wasn't much in 28mm, so the IG line let me scratch that hobby itch in a fun scale. I painted my Cadians like WW2 Germans, using three-colour camo for the vehicles. The 1999 3rd Edition Codex even has a picture of an Osprey Forces of Vietnam book in the painting section to show that "contemporary" schemes could be used for inspiration - including boonie hats. Other models are clearly painted like WW2 Germans.

The Catachans are pretty much Maj Dutch's team in Predator with the volume turned up to 11. The original Catachan Captain with a Powerfist is clearly Arnie. As others have pointed out, the IG line was influenced heavily by historical/movie styles.

Flash forward 20 years and there are plenty of hard-plastic multi-part 28mm toy soldiers made by different companies, and I see many AM armies on FLGS tables that are straight up Warlord Games models (either Bolt Action or Black Powder). The only new AM infantry kit that I am aware of is the plastic Scions. Their aesthetic is definitely not heavily based on historical soldiers, although the berets evoke an Airborne theme and the full helmets have that Prussian thing going.It's grown on me, and I've been building a Scions army. Who knew that tastes could change?

The AM line certainly needs a revamp. My gut says they will come up with something closer to the idea of the Scion line (maybe something like Ventrillans?) - less obviously drawn from a historical force but with a few elements that people would recognize. They will look to make their kit stand out from what is available from Warlord etc. I doubt we'd see Cadians since they blew Cadia up but who knows! I found the 2nd Edition Catachans silly but tolerable - I find the 3rd Ed plastic Catachans are just plain silly. And yes I have them too and they still see the tabletop. The latest special figure shows that they still hold the Catachans dear to their hearts, and I could get behind revamped Catachans (but on fewer steroids).

We cannot look at changing the models without changing the rules. End. of. Story. There is no way, shape, or form where it is acceptable for Guard to retain this nonsense of 'everyone is a 5+ save and has lasguns because the army profile says so'. That's why we had such issues with Conscripts early on for 8th. It's why Veterans are such trash compared to standard infantry squads. There needs to be variation, and that variation can drive a rules shift that actually starts putting Guard into a design space that moves them from 'Skitarii/Tau but worse'.

Additionally, read some lore. Cadians were everywhere. Not all of them were on Cadia when it "blew up"(which in and of itself is incorrect--they even make mention of this with regards to Bile as he's using the "ruins of Cadia" for his nonsense), and it was a known factor for several editions now that Cadian 'pattern' gear was produced on so many various worlds that were devoted strictly to outfitting Cadia that with Cadia gone? That equipment has to go somewhere. And that's not even getting into the whole idea of settlements(Brimlock Dragoons, for example, were known to be first-generation Cadians who had settled a world they conquered) where the Cadian martial traditions existed.

Scions aren't Astra Militarum infantry. They're Militarum Tempestus, which is in and of itself part of a whooooooole other thing. They're not meant to be anything other than a continuation of an aesthetic we saw introduced with the Vostroyans(that of the pseudo-John Blanche vibes).

Additionally, there's two Catachan figures. We saw Sergeant 'Ripper' and now this unnamed Colonel figure. But they're the first time we've actually had something close to the artwork they've been putting out for Catachans since the Robin Cruddace-era book or Kopinski's stuff when they dropped the Heavy Weapons Teams that had art rather than models:

And then of course there's the actual color plates in the Codex now for Catachans, which are nothing like the current models but clearly were the basis for what the two special edition models are.


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 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
First and foremost they would need to get the scale right.

Imo, given their popularity, plastic multipart DKoK kits are way overdue.

Yeah, no. I'd never do DKoK in plastic at this point--the look(greatcoat+gas mask) is too saturated into pop culture right now. It's generic SyFy Channel Bad Guy at this point. It also steps too much onto the toes of the Scions at this point.

Looks as if Catachans may be on the long term horizon given some of the tester models of late...Marbo and the revealed Captain (or whatever he is)

It's a Colonel. It said so on the box and the Community article.
Marbo also wasn't "of late". He came out in 2017.
There is also the store opening model, which is actually a named one(Sergeant 'Ripper'--female model with a Boltgun).

Kanluwen,

Are you looking to discuss or just dictate to us how the AM design must be according to you? You're ordering me to go read some lore? Thanks. I've been playing Cadians since 1996, and yes I know that Cadia Stands. Doesn't make them the next box set (although I'd be happy to get new Cadians! or Catachans). The Tempestus Scions only exist as a force in 8th Ed as part of the Astra Militarum, taking the place of the old Stormtroopers etc in the range. They don't have their own section in the on-line store, although they do have their own Start Collecting Set. They offer a window into how the studio was thinking relatively recently, as opposed to the studio 25 years ago.

You are clearly very passionate about your design and have put a lot of thought into it, but your rules I can certainly take a pass on. They can absolutely design new models or update existing ones without changing the fundamental rules/organization for the line. Of course, they have certainly changed "platoon/company" structures between editions. I've gamed/suffered through pretty much all of them! We'll see what the studio comes out with.

 Kanluwen wrote:
There is no way, shape, or form where it is acceptable for Guard to retain this nonsense of 'everyone is a 5+ save and has lasguns because the army profile says so'.

Uhm... I suppose you are aware that this 'everyone is a 5+ save and has lasguns' is the entire stick of the Imperial Guard as far as their infantry goes, and one of the most defining feature of the entire army.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Kanluwen,

Are you looking to discuss or just dictate to us how the AM design must be according to you? You're ordering me to go read some lore? Thanks. I've been playing Cadians since 1996, and yes I know that Cadia Stands. Doesn't make them the next box set (although I'd be happy to get new Cadians! or Catachans).

Then you should also know that even if Cadians are squatted--that has not ever stopped them from being the template that we could see. There were whole frigging systems related to producing material for Cadia. That stuff has to go somewhere, even if every Cadian in the galaxy gets pulled out of existence overnight.

The Tempestus Scions only exist as a force in 8th Ed as part of the Astra Militarum, taking the place of the old Stormtroopers etc in the range.

No. They take the place of the Stormtrooper Regiments. They do not take the place of Kasrkin, Volpone Bluebloods, or other Grenadier-typed units. Every single one of the things that I just listed were Regimental assets that were armed, equipped, and trained to function as part of the Regiment not zealots and hardliners thrown into suicide missions(which is what the Scions are, fyi).

They don't have their own section in the on-line store, although they do have their own Start Collecting Set. They offer a window into how the studio was thinking relatively recently, as opposed to the studio 25 years ago.

No, what offered a window into that thinking is the Tempestus Scions minidex that was available. It's why they had a Start Collecting set, as you could field an entire standalone army from that minidex. It wasn't a supplement unlike what some people implied.

You are clearly very passionate about your design and have put a lot of thought into it, but your rules I can certainly take a pass on. They can absolutely design new models or update existing ones without changing the fundamental rules/organization for the line. Of course, they have certainly changed "platoon/company" structures between editions. I've gamed/suffered through pretty much all of them! We'll see what the studio comes out with.

Yeah, well I'd take a pass on Guard being kept as they are. Nothing in my suggestions rules people out from using models they own, but rather actually starts Guard working the way they're supposed to.

For ‘standard’ Guard to replace the existing Cadian Kit, I’d like to see a blending with the original Rogue Trader Aesthetic.

And possibly, a ‘one size fits none’ look to the uniforms.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
There is no way, shape, or form where it is acceptable for Guard to retain this nonsense of 'everyone is a 5+ save and has lasguns because the army profile says so'.

Uhm... I suppose you are aware that this 'everyone is a 5+ save and has lasguns' is the entire stick of the Imperial Guard as far as their infantry goes, and one of the most defining feature of the entire army.

And I suppose you are aware that this "everyone is a 5+ save and has lasguns" isn't actually something that needs to continually be copypasted from edition to edition? I mean, even just ignoring the clusterfeth that was Conscripts v Infantry Squads at the start of 8th(which should have been a huge shot across the bow to GW's designers that something needs to change)--there's notable shifts in the design space over the years that show you can still have similarly garbed or outfitted units without sacrificing the visual aesthetic of the force.

Look at the Tau for example. Pathfinders and Fire Warriors use the same basic structure, but the extra armor and the variation on weapons actually means something there. There is not, nor should there ever have been, an acceptable reason as to why Catachans and Cadians have the same armor saves as each other.

And for all the grousing people do about the Regimental Traits "not letting them play the way they should be!", one would think that there should be actual excitement over units that have a notable variation between each other rather than "My Catachans are all Conscripts this week, because the metashifted again!".

I’d prefer to see Conscripts redone as PDF.

But rather than just being a cheap blob squad option, they’re instead a ‘plug-in’ of lesser qualified troops, like a sub army within your army.

Perhaps a Command Squad, 2-5 Infantry squads and 0-2 support tanks.

PDF are a different beast entirely and never, ever, ever should be showcased in Astra Militarum--except as Regimental Advisors.

 Kanluwen wrote:
We cannot look at changing the models without changing the rules. End. of. Story. There is no way, shape, or form where it is acceptable for Guard to retain this nonsense of 'everyone is a 5+ save and has lasguns because the army profile says so'. That's why we had such issues with Conscripts early on for 8th. It's why Veterans are such trash compared to standard infantry squads. There needs to be variation, and that variation can drive a rules shift that actually starts putting Guard into a design space that moves them from 'Skitarii/Tau but worse'.

Additionally, read some lore. Cadians were everywhere. Not all of them were on Cadia when it "blew up"(which in and of itself is incorrect--they even make mention of this with regards to Bile as he's using the "ruins of Cadia" for his nonsense), and it was a known factor for several editions now that Cadian 'pattern' gear was produced on so many various worlds that were devoted strictly to outfitting Cadia that with Cadia gone? That equipment has to go somewhere. And that's not even getting into the whole idea of settlements(Brimlock Dragoons, for example, were known to be first-generation Cadians who had settled a world they conquered) where the Cadian martial traditions existed.

Scions aren't Astra Militarum infantry. They're Militarum Tempestus, which is in and of itself part of a whooooooole other thing. They're not meant to be anything other than a continuation of an aesthetic we saw introduced with the Vostroyans(that of the pseudo-John Blanche vibes).

Additionally, there's two Catachan figures. We saw Sergeant 'Ripper' and now this unnamed Colonel figure. But they're the first time we've actually had something close to the artwork they've been putting out for Catachans since the Robin Cruddace-era book or Kopinski's stuff when they dropped the Heavy Weapons Teams that had art rather than models:

Spoiler:

And then of course there's the actual color plates in the Codex now for Catachans, which are nothing like the current models but clearly were the basis for what the two special edition models are.


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 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
First and foremost they would need to get the scale right.

Imo, given their popularity, plastic multipart DKoK kits are way overdue.

Yeah, no. I'd never do DKoK in plastic at this point--the look(greatcoat+gas mask) is too saturated into pop culture right now. It's generic SyFy Channel Bad Guy at this point. It also steps too much onto the toes of the Scions at this point.

Looks as if Catachans may be on the long term horizon given some of the tester models of late...Marbo and the revealed Captain (or whatever he is)

It's a Colonel. It said so on the box and the Community article.
Marbo also wasn't "of late". He came out in 2017.
There is also the store opening model, which is actually a named one(Sergeant 'Ripper'--female model with a Boltgun).

Well I’m sorry, but rules were not the point of this thread. Hence the explicit statement that the focus was on models.
Second, calm down. I know the bloody lore, I at no point suggested getting rid of Cadians. I specifically talked about them. I’m talking about expanding and revamping the line, not completely rebooting it.
I’m not sure that WWI aesthetics are too deep into pop-culture atm. Also the Kriegers look nothing like the Scions at all.

And again, calm down.

 Kanluwen wrote:
PDF are a different beast entirely and never, ever, ever should be showcased in Astra Militarum--except as Regimental Advisors.

I disagree.

They’re the first line of defence. Theoretically enough to put off opportunistic raiders of any stripe. And if not, enough to hold strategic locations until the AM proper can get to the Warzone and take control.

Rules need to reflect that. Or at the very, very least, have PDF/Conscripts not benefit from Orders.

 Kanluwen wrote:
PDF are a different beast entirely and never, ever, ever should be showcased in Astra Militarum--except as Regimental Advisors.

It makes perfect sense in many situations for the PDF- or at least it’s remnants- to be fighting alongside the Guard.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
There is no way, shape, or form where it is acceptable for Guard to retain this nonsense of 'everyone is a 5+ save and has lasguns because the army profile says so'.

Uhm... I suppose you are aware that this 'everyone is a 5+ save and has lasguns' is the entire stick of the Imperial Guard as far as their infantry goes, and one of the most defining feature of the entire army.

And I suppose you are aware that this "everyone is a 5+ save and has lasguns" isn't actually something that needs to continually be copypasted from edition to edition?

You can give it up, of course, but then the army stops being Imperial Guard and becomes... something else. It would be like this Primaris debacle, or something even worse, because you are not adding a New Holy Cow for fans to lust over but slay the existing one with no definitive replacement. Heck, not even Primaris is ditching the Space Marine 'everyone is a 3+ save and has boltguns because the army profile says so' thing even if it would be expected.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:
Well, I'll give the response everyone on Dakka will hate.

IG dex + supplements for each regiment.

One unique vehicle variant for each regiment. One box for each regiment that builds, Troops, Vets, Heavies or Specials, but ALL very distinctly regimental.

Rough riders return- given that AM is getting cavalry, I think this is guaranteed to happen. Those things are going to sell like N-95's.

More guard fliers. Might only need one, but since I like lots, lets go for two- one would be a bomber and one would be a fighter since we've already got a Transport.

All three flyers sold as an Airwing box set with a plastic master of the fleet. While we're at it, plastic up the other advisors too.

New Wyrdvanes and a new Primaris, though keep the old primaris in circulation too because he rules.

Oh yeah, here's the best part; regiment boxes are also available as kill teams with each box containing a unique sculpt for a leader- Platoon commander level, because that's the other thing you have to bring back. Having only company level HQ makes it hard to play guard in properly scaled escalation campaigns.

The kill teams would be released first; their models would be monopose. 2-3 months after release, the multipart regiment boxes drop with the dex. The unique new kits with each regiment drop with that regiment's supplement.

The way forward is more. Not less.

Space Marines don't overtax the supply chain by having four different base Codexes because all four of them have 90%+ identical models, and the basic core models for all of them are identical. Trying to do sub-faction Codexes with different infantry ranges would be hilariously impractical.

That's a fair point. I think it could be mitigated by designing each infantry box so that it builds all the troops you need.

Right now you've got three boxes of Cadians (Command Squad, Heavy Weapons, Troops). and ditto for Cadians. Additionally, there are packs with snipers, packs with specials... You're looking at six boxes and four clam packs. What I'm talking about is having one box for each regiment. Whether you use the box to build two small MSU's (Command + Vet or Special) or one 10 man Troops is your call. Kinda like the sisters box works. It actually leads to fewer skus, and it could even lead to efficiency in mold making with a bit of effective sprue planning.

Keep in mind that my proposed release schedule gives you monopose preview models for a limited time, which provide some variety from just having a single box, and it allows GW to drop the dex without having all of the regiment boxes done for release; models would exist (as kill teams) for however many regiments you decide to include in the reboot- they'd just be monopose- they'd be very cinematic and high quality, so they could stand out as collectibles, but they'd have fewer options than a regiment box.

Most people who play guard play them for the vehicles, not the troops. The vehicles are the common core between the armies; most would appear in the dex, along with things like Imperial Advisors, Astra Telepathica Models, Rattlings and Ogryns. The troops, all their deidcated rules and strats and relics and warlord traits, plus maybe one character, one vehicle and one flavor unit- usually a character, would make up the content for the supplements.

I'm not saying for sure it WOULD work. But it certainly could.

Oh, and on another note, yeah, sorry about your luck dude, flak armor and lasguns are here to stay. Always have been, always will be. From a fluff perspective, as well as a loyalty to the customer base, they are the only options that make sense for guard troops. Vets and command squads and special weapons can shake up your weapons profile if you don't like lasguns. I wouldn't object to one or two of the regiment boxes being carapace armoured I guess- there's precedent for all of this stuff.



Maybe four regiments? I really think it's doable. The options in that sisters box are crazy.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
PDF are a different beast entirely and never, ever, ever should be showcased in Astra Militarum--except as Regimental Advisors.

I disagree.

They’re the first line of defence. Theoretically enough to put off opportunistic raiders of any stripe. And if not, enough to hold strategic locations until the AM proper can get to the Warzone and take control.

They're also not Astra Militarum. The Regimental Advisor bit is actually a way to bring the concept of PDFs in and bring in a weird yet useful bit with regards to 'local terrain'.

Rules need to reflect that. Or at the very, very least, have PDF/Conscripts not benefit from Orders.

Then what's the point of throwing another subfaction into the book?
We have:
-Aeronautica Imperialis(Valkyries and Officer of the Fleet)
-Astra Telepathica+Scholastica Psykana(Wyrdvane Psykers, Astropaths, Primaris Psykers)
-Officio Prefectus(Commissars)
-Militarum Tempestus(Remember that these require a Tempestus Prime to receive Orders)
-Adeptus Ministorum(Crusaders and Priests)
-Adeptus Mechanicus(Techpriest Enginseer and Servitors)
-Militarum Auxilla(Ogryns and Ratlings)
-<Regiment> units
Just think about that for a moment. We have seven subfactions within the Guard codex. And you want to throw Planetary Defense Forces(which aren't part of the Guard, again, for emphasis) in to bring it up to 8?

If you want 'em as a dedicated subfaction? They belong in Auxilla. If they're in Auxilla, they get no Orders. Conscripts should have been under Auxilla to start with and then we never would have had the stupidity that was the start of 8th.

DalekCheese wrote:It makes perfect sense in many situations for the PDF- or at least it’s remnants- to be fighting alongside the Guard.

Of course it does. But that doesn't change that they're:
A) Not part of the Guard
B) A thing that should be more narrative scenario driven than a unit(or units) shoved into an already bloated book with subfactions.

The idea of bringing them in as a part of the 'Regimental Advisor' selection(Astropath, Master of Ordnance, Fleet Liasion) is to bring in a one-off that doesn't become a sidegrade or yet another subfaction. It becomes a single character that does something for the way the army functions whether it be allowing for deploying things from reserves, fire support from off-board lightweight weaponry, mitigating enemy reserves, etc.

AtoMaki wrote:You can give it up, of course, but then the army stops being Imperial Guard and becomes... something else. It would be like this Primaris debacle, or something even worse, because you are not adding a New Holy Cow for fans to lust over but slay the existing one with no definitive replacement. Heck, not even Primaris is ditching the Space Marine 'everyone is a 3+ save and has boltguns because the army profile says so' thing even if it would be expected.

First up, you really should actually read posts. None of what I posted "slays the existing one with no definitive replacement". I have models that are almost as old as I am that would fit into any of the categories I listed. The only thing it "slays" is the nonsense that is the current spam of cheap troops and cheap weapons.
Imperial Guard, as an army, are useless existing in the space they are now.
Genestealer Cult does the same thing--but better.
Tau does the same thing--but better(much better thanks to Drones)
Adeptus Mechanicus does the same thing--but better.

The only real space that Guard have been occupying has been "cheap command point generators" and with Marines getting changed to no longer benefit from it(which definitely seems to be the shape of things to come)? They need to have an actual place to flourish. Their troops aren't flexible, they don't have gimmicks outside of a few token stratagems, and their gameplay style currently is one of the most reviled with "bUt ThEy JuSt SiT aNd ShOoT mE!!1!!".

Additionally, the army doesn't "stop being Imperial Guard". It hasn't been Imperial Guard since Cruddace wrote the post-Doctrines book. It's been a Marine player's vision of Guard. Scions were the only genuinely new thing that we saw added to the lore and organizational setup for the Guard--and they were a huge step forward from the nonsense that was "The Stormtrooper Regiment".

In conclusion:
Make Guardsmen matter. They're not just speed bumps for the tanks. They're the main element of the fighting force that is the Imperial Guard.

Except for the main part, they are just speedbumps for tanks. They are the Imperium’s grots, they are not meant to be good. They’re relatively well-trained compared to PDFs, but that’s not actually saying very much at all. They die in droves every single day. If you start to make them any more than that, then they’re not the Guard.

Anyway, BOT. New models.

 DalekCheese wrote:
Except for the main part, they are just speedbumps for tanks. They are the Imperium’s grots, they are not meant to be good. They’re relatively well-trained compared to PDFs, but that’s not actually saying very much at all. They die in droves every single day. If you start to make them any more than that, then they’re not the Guard.

Anyway, BOT. New models.

The Guard(with the exception of maybe the Valhallans, Death Korps, and Penal Legions) are not, nor have they ever been "just speedbumps for tanks" in the lore. That's a thing that has existed almost solely on the tabletop and in the way that people like to portray them when discussing them. The 'reality'(as the case is for fiction) is that they're described as utilizing combined arms tactics comparable to WWII/modern day forces. Infantry will move up alongside of tanks where possible, pieces of kit might be ditched for specialists, different weapons(carbines, rifles, etc) might be utilized as the environment calls for it.
Now, it's also true that the tanks are considered to be more valuable than the standard Guardsmen...but that's not the same thing as them being Grots.

Sidenote:
It's not like I'm really far off in terms of how to look at things anyways. Compare the standard Chaos Cultist to the Renegade Guardsmen that came with Blackstone Fortress:

Again, it's important to delineate what units might be versus what they might not be.

Oh yeah, and those guys up in the top row? They're all carrying laslocks.

The Guard was always a speedbump for the enemies of the Emperium. They are the weakest, least armoured, lowest firepower meats shields in the galactic forces. Yes technically the PDF, Whitesheilds, Conscripts, Penal Legion and Militia are meant to be even more useless but there is a limit on the tabletop, we only have so many "gaps" for troops to reflect their relative skills.

Making Guardsmen more effective than they are would literally make them "not Guardsmen" any more, at least they'd be encroaching on Kasrkin/Scion territory and they'd be more expensive to field. Better protection? You've just invented Eldar Guardians.

There isn't anything wrong with a "lasgun equivalent 5+ save" army. You get lots of ablative protection, and heavy weapons and tanks. Lots of tanks. There is nothing wrong with that.

There are tons of other armies to play if you don't like IG, why try change IG into something else?

Having cooler, more customizable models that are speedbumps with flashlights is a win.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 DalekCheese wrote:
Except for the main part, they are just speedbumps for tanks. They are the Imperium’s grots, they are not meant to be good. They’re relatively well-trained compared to PDFs, but that’s not actually saying very much at all. They die in droves every single day. If you start to make them any more than that, then they’re not the Guard.

Anyway, BOT. New models.

The Guard(with the exception of maybe the Valhallans, Death Korps, and Penal Legions) are not, nor have they ever been "just speedbumps for tanks" in the lore. That's a thing that has existed almost solely on the tabletop and in the way that people like to portray them when discussing them. The 'reality'(as the case is for fiction) is that they're described as utilizing combined arms tactics comparable to WWII/modern day forces. Infantry will move up alongside of tanks where possible, pieces of kit might be ditched for specialists, different weapons(carbines, rifles, etc) might be utilized as the environment calls for it.
Now, it's also true that the tanks are considered to be more valuable than the standard Guardsmen...but that's not the same thing as them being Grots.

... but they are, though. They are most certainly good soldiers, but they are not expected to last. They die quickly and unpleasantly, and in very large numbers.

Sidenote:
It's not like I'm really far off in terms of how to look at things anyways. Compare the standard Chaos Cultist to the Renegade Guardsmen that came with Blackstone Fortress:

Spoiler:

Again, it's important to delineate what units might be versus what they might not be.

Oh yeah, and those guys up in the top row? They're all carrying laslocks.

Aren’t they carrying Lasguns similar to the Krieger’s? Maybe not, they can look quite similar. Not sure how it relates to anything.

Anyway, as I said, B. O. T.. How would you revamp the miniatures?

And I said you cannot revamp the miniatures without revamping the rules. There's nothing to revamp otherwise.

As for "why try to change the IG into something else?". Read what I posted earlier.

There's several armies that fit into the 'space' that you lot are trying to suggest Guard need to forever be pigeonholed into. 'Basic' Guard infantry are already a 5+ save(which is the same as Eldar Guardians, unless 8th edition brought them down to Carapace Armor[4+] levels). There is nothing wrong with revamping the existing model archetypes(lightly armored "skirmishers", the Cadian Standard, then the heavy armored troops) into something that is better reflected in their rules. Nobody bats an eye about Space Marine Scouts being a 4+ save while having the same(if not less, because no helmets!) protective measures as a Cadian Shock Trooper(5+).

There is zero reason we could not have a 6+ save 'skirmisher' unit that gets benefits while in cover, a middleweight unit, and a heavy unit.

As the OP was explicit about discussing just the models for the IG line, and has tried to steer the conversation away from rules and back onto models, lets try and keep the discussion focused on that, there is absolutely plenty of room to have that discussion without getting into rules. If people want to talk about changes they'd like to see in how the army functions and to redefine the rules/statelines, let's leave that for another thread if people have such ideas they want to discuss, thanks!

For my own part, I think the current Cadian kit actually isn't too bad, aside from the heads. The helmets with the Heroic scale look more like infant medical safety helmets than combat gear, to my eyes at least. When you swap the heads on the Cadian kits for any number of aftermarket alternatives, it's a huge improvement, so I'd focus on a remodel of the helmet for Cadians, and add in gas mask options.

In general, I'd also look to add more female head options and revamp the faces/expressions, as all too often GW's attempt at making faces look like they're yelling or intense or angry end up looking more like they're experiencing a bout of painful constipation.

I'd love to see a generic greatcoat guard kit with multiple different head options for different worlds for Valhallans/Krieg/Vosroyans/etc or even different regiments altogether. Really I'd love a cheap plastic generic greatcoat/gas mask/helmet IG. Maybe do a generic "fancy pants" one for Mordians and Praetorians and others too. Adding more kit like backpacks, webbing, magazines, etc would be a huge plus as well.

I'm not sure what I'd do with Catachans. The current models are poor sculpts and the "Predator/Commando" 80's action hero vibe just doesn't have the pop culture chops it used to have. I have literally never seen an actual Catachan-model IG army in person ever, I only ever see the models used for conversions for stuff like cultists or zombies and the like, and they seem to sit on shelves without moving.

*PERSONALLY* I'd like to see IRL contemporary combat gear making it's way into the models. The Space Marines have Picitiny rails on the top of their bolter's now, so why not something like ALICE rigs if not MOLLE. Hell the 1980 era SADF M83 Battle Jacket and Chest Rig is almost 40 years old! We've got WWI trench, WWI desert, Crimean, Anglo-Zulu, Cold War-ish, Mongol and a myriad of other timezones, why not something more modern?

You can easily update the plastic sprues to include multiple options. Heck even something a basic as including multiple headgear into Cadian sprues would go a long way to improving the customization. As much as I have Space Marine shoulder pads, I'd really like to see the Cadian shoulder pads as a separate entity to the arms. Building a sleeker, yet still armoured torso would make for something different.

Honestly do there need to be Box Sets? Sure a starter kit or two but I'd MUCH prefer to buy a sprue of torsos, a sprue of legs, a sprue of heads, a sprue of guns and a sprue of accessories than what we have now. That'd be a good way to revamp the line. But then I'd sell things like a sprue of Autoguns, hellguns, power packs, gravity harnesses, berets, gasmask heads, sniper rifles, sight options, hydration packs, extra chest mags, different heads... There are plenty other companies that will sell individual weapon or head selections, so why not GW?

I know making molds is hell expensive but other companies are doing it, and with the developments in 3D printing people are going to look elsewhere for their solutions. I'm getting a little sick of having to choose between which box set suits my theme the closest and just dealing, or modifying.

 Vaktathi wrote:

For my own part, I think the current Cadian kit actually isn't too bad, aside from the heads. The helmets with the Heroic scale look more like infant medical safety helmets than combat gear, to my eyes at least. When you swap the heads on the Cadian kits for any number of aftermarket alternatives, it's a huge improvement, so I'd focus on a remodel of the helmet for Cadians, and add in gas mask options.

In general, the current Cadian kit is pretty atrocious when compared to the Genestealer Cultists, Chaos Cultists, and Skitarii. Cadians are about what Catachans are described as though.
And amusingly enough, it isn't the head that is the problem(although a big part of that problem is the helmet is being scaled as larger than it actually is).

In general, I'd also look to add more female head options and revamp the faces/expressions, as all too often GW's attempt at making faces look like they're yelling or intense or angry end up looking more like they're experiencing a bout of painful constipation.

Except when they don't? There were slews of heads across the Empire range that were just gorgeous. It just seems like people always remember the bad ones.

I'd love to see a generic greatcoat guard kit with multiple different head options for different worlds for Valhallans/Krieg/Vosroyans/etc or even different regiments altogether. Really I'd love a cheap plastic generic greatcoat/gas mask/helmet IG. Maybe do a generic "fancy pants" one for Mordians and Praetorians and others too. Adding more kit like backpacks, webbing, magazines, etc would be a huge plus as well.

Valhallans and Krieg have different designs for coats. It doesn't work.
Vostroyans additionally are closer to Steel Legion than they are any of those.

I'm not sure what I'd do with Catachans. The current models are poor sculpts and the "Predator/Commando" 80's action hero vibe just doesn't have the pop culture chops it used to have. I have literally never seen an actual Catachan-model IG army in person ever, I only ever see the models used for conversions for stuff like cultists or zombies and the like, and they seem to sit on shelves without moving.

If you have any shops with them, then someone ordered them. They aren't a regular stock item and haven't been for almost a decade.

As for "what to do with them"? Look in the fricking codex. They clearly have been doing art and concepting on the Cadians and Catachans.

Did you not clock the [MOD] tag? o_O

The Guard models I would love to see are the Jes Goodwin concepts that never got made. This guy and his pals:

Kayback wrote:
*PERSONALLY* I'd like to see IRL contemporary combat gear making it's way into the models. The Space Marines have Picitiny rails on the top of their bolter's now, so why not something like ALICE rigs if not MOLLE. Hell the 1980 era SADF M83 Battle Jacket and Chest Rig is almost 40 years old! We've got WWI trench, WWI desert, Crimean, Anglo-Zulu, Cold War-ish, Mongol and a myriad of other timezones, why not something more modern?

We don't have a quarter of those anymore. Attillans are long discontinued, Tallarn are a footnote(who are based off of the British Special Air Service circa North Africa with a bit of Lawrence of Arabia...oh and they don't treat their infantry as expendable. ), Valhallans were WWII vintage(same with Steel Legion)

You can easily update the plastic sprues to include multiple options. Heck even something a basic as including multiple headgear into Cadian sprues would go a long way to improving the customization. As much as I have Space Marine shoulder pads, I'd really like to see the Cadian shoulder pads as a separate entity to the arms. Building a sleeker, yet still armoured torso would make for something different.

Gee, it's almost like someone else has already suggested a lot of this stuff just more in-depth and actually relevant.

Honestly do there need to be Box Sets? Sure a starter kit or two but I'd MUCH prefer to buy a sprue of torsos, a sprue of legs, a sprue of heads, a sprue of guns and a sprue of accessories than what we have now. That'd be a good way to revamp the line. But then I'd sell things like a sprue of Autoguns, hellguns, power packs, gravity harnesses, berets, gasmask heads, sniper rifles, sight options, hydration packs, extra chest mags, different heads... There are plenty other companies that will sell individual weapon or head selections, so why not GW?

I know making molds is hell expensive but other companies are doing it, and with the developments in 3D printing people are going to look elsewhere for their solutions. I'm getting a little sick of having to choose between which box set suits my theme the closest and just dealing, or modifying.

Other companies aren't doing it like GW would be. Other companies are doing stuff in resin or metal or outsourcing it to Chinese plastic production. The only place, currently, that I am aware of "offering individual weapon or head selections" is Privateer Press--and they only offer what they cast in metal or resin on premises.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Did you not clock the [MOD] tag? o_O

I genuinely didn't! I guess he got promoted.

Congratulations, I guess.

The Guard models I would love to see are the Jes Goodwin concepts that never got made. This guy and his pals:

Spoiler:

Amusing part is that design is closer to the Skitarii than the Guard at this point!

Kayback wrote:
*PERSONALLY* I'd like to see IRL contemporary combat gear making it's way into the models. The Space Marines have Picitiny rails on the top of their bolter's now, so why not something like ALICE rigs if not MOLLE. Hell the 1980 era SADF M83 Battle Jacket and Chest Rig is almost 40 years old! We've got WWI trench, WWI desert, Crimean, Anglo-Zulu, Cold War-ish, Mongol and a myriad of other timezones, why not something more modern?

You can easily update the plastic sprues to include multiple options. Heck even something a basic as including multiple headgear into Cadian sprues would go a long way to improving the customization. As much as I have Space Marine shoulder pads, I'd really like to see the Cadian shoulder pads as a separate entity to the arms. Building a sleeker, yet still armoured torso would make for something different.

Yeah, some proper LBE would make a big difference to the kits and give them a more 'real' feel. It doesn't have to be super current-day cutting-edge; just something like an ALICE or RRV would make them a little more 'grounded' than just having random pouches to clip to the belt as in the current kits. It could still be stylized and distinctive.

I still think the 3rd Ed Storm Troopers would be a good reference point stylistically. They had LBE and a fairly 'modern' look, but their armor/helmets/weapons/respirators were original designs and not just straight translations of any historical influence. Scale back the armor from carapace to flak, drop the respirators and backpacks, and give them lasguns, and you would pretty much get some generic modern/sci-fi troops- not too far off from Cadians, really.

Kayback wrote:
Honestly do there need to be Box Sets? Sure a starter kit or two but I'd MUCH prefer to buy a sprue of torsos, a sprue of legs, a sprue of heads, a sprue of guns and a sprue of accessories than what we have now. That'd be a good way to revamp the line. But then I'd sell things like a sprue of Autoguns, hellguns, power packs, gravity harnesses, berets, gasmask heads, sniper rifles, sight options, hydration packs, extra chest mags, different heads... There are plenty other companies that will sell individual weapon or head selections, so why not GW?

I know making molds is hell expensive but other companies are doing it, and with the developments in 3D printing people are going to look elsewhere for their solutions. I'm getting a little sick of having to choose between which box set suits my theme the closest and just dealing, or modifying.

Do you know of any companies that are selling those individual bits and sprues that produce in plastic, rather than resin? Resin is significantly more conducive to that sort of mix-and-match sales.

I think GW would probably stay away from any business model that precludes them from selling a single, complete boxed set. Intelligent sprue design coupled with an online-only service to buy individual sprues could make the mix-and-match approach viable, but I wouldn't hold my breath for it actually happening.

Yeah that ain’t gonna happen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Amusing part is that design is closer to the Skitarii than the Guard at this point!

Nah, aside from a big coat and a mask there’s not much similarity. This guy has his original legs, for a start, and the helmet is just that. There are other sheets of designs riffing on this basic torso design but for different regiments. I just love this particular one with the loaded backpack, cold weather gloves, Godwyn-pattern Lasgun. It’s quintessentially 40K.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
The Guard models I would love to see are the Jes Goodwin concepts that never got made. This guy and his pals:

(snipped huge image)

Still rooting for these guys to see the light of day. They've got a gothic style that fits in perfectly with the 40K aesthetic, they're trademark-friendly, and they can cash in on the popularity of gas mask/greatcoat Guard (eg Krieg).

Leaving aside all the ideas of multi-build kits as discussed earlier in the thread, if our options were (instead of Cadians and Catachans) that Jes Goodwin concept and a modern, tacticool aesthetic, that'd provide both a stylized grimdark option and a generic modern alternative. It'd be abandoning the historical expies, but I get the sense that that's where GW is going in any case.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Gee, it's almost like someone else has already suggested a lot of this stuff just more in-depth and actually relevant.

TBH I was going to engage with some of your ideas earlier in the thread, but the tone of 'decree from on high' is really obnoxious, and the sarcasm isn't doing any favors.

 catbarf wrote:

Kayback wrote:
*PERSONALLY* I'd like to see IRL contemporary combat gear making it's way into the models. The Space Marines have Picitiny rails on the top of their bolter's now, so why not something like ALICE rigs if not MOLLE. Hell the 1980 era SADF M83 Battle Jacket and Chest Rig is almost 40 years old! We've got WWI trench, WWI desert, Crimean, Anglo-Zulu, Cold War-ish, Mongol and a myriad of other timezones, why not something more modern?

You can easily update the plastic sprues to include multiple options. Heck even something a basic as including multiple headgear into Cadian sprues would go a long way to improving the customization. As much as I have Space Marine shoulder pads, I'd really like to see the Cadian shoulder pads as a separate entity to the arms. Building a sleeker, yet still armoured torso would make for something different.

Yeah, some proper LBE would make a big difference to the kits and give them a more 'real' feel. It doesn't have to be super current-day cutting-edge; just something like an ALICE or RRV would make them a little more 'grounded' than just having random pouches to clip to the belt as in the current kits. It could still be stylized and distinctive.

I still think the 3rd Ed Storm Troopers would be a good reference point stylistically. They had LBE and a fairly 'modern' look, but their armor/helmets/weapons/respirators were original designs and not just straight translations of any historical influence. Scale back the armor from carapace to flak, drop the respirators and backpacks, and give them lasguns, and you would pretty much get some generic modern/sci-fi troops- not too far off from Cadians, really.

At this point, the 3E Stormtroopers are basically just passable as Guardsmen anyways. They're about as well protected as the GSC Neophytes are IMO. If you didn't tell someone they were supposed to be wearing Carapace Armor? They might not know. Their armor, helmets, and respirators were also patterned more after 1980s military gear(I wouldn't be shocked if the sculptors used references of the SAS storming of the embassy as inspiration)...just with a big ol' backpack and the wrist bracers attached.

I think GW would probably stay away from any business model that precludes them from selling a single, complete boxed set. Intelligent sprue design coupled with an online-only service to buy individual sprues could make the mix-and-match approach viable, but I wouldn't hold my breath for it actually happening.

The problem, IMO, is that even with as intelligent of sprue design as one could imagine? There's going to be some stuff that just is not doable without the 'online only' sprues being effectively a whole kit in and of themselves!

The most realistic thing, IMO, to hope for is that GW does a 'trifecta' of specialized setups. A 'scout' type, 'frontline soldiers', and 'heavy infantry'.

JohnnyHell wrote:Nah, aside from a big coat and a mask there’s not much similarity. This guy has his original legs, for a start, and the helmet is just that. There are other sheets of designs riffing on this basic torso design but for different regiments. I just love this particular one with the loaded backpack, cold weather gloves, Godwyn-pattern Lasgun. It’s quintessentially 40K.

The torso and shoulderpads match what the Skitarii(and the pilot for Canis Rex) have. There's also the 'trim' of those arrows which have been showing up on a lot of the AdMech(and Scion/Commissariat) models.

I don-t want "Gothic" guard. Gothic can be saved for the sisters of battle, and a few of the more religious SM orgs.

I would like IG to stay with the theme of being war movies in space. The WWI-WWII vehicle aesthetic, the modernish infantry aesthetic.

That's what makes Guard attractive and not gakky marines.

 catbarf wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
The Guard models I would love to see are the Jes Goodwin concepts that never got made. This guy and his pals:

(snipped huge image)

Still rooting for these guys to see the light of day. They've got a gothic style that fits in perfectly with the 40K aesthetic, they're trademark-friendly, and they can cash in on the popularity of gas mask/greatcoat Guard (eg Krieg).

Leaving aside all the ideas of multi-build kits as discussed earlier in the thread, if our options were (instead of Cadians and Catachans) that Jes Goodwin concept and a modern, tacticool aesthetic, that'd provide both a stylized grimdark option and a generic modern alternative. It'd be abandoning the historical expies, but I get the sense that that's where GW is going in any case.

One of the things that bears consideration is that this kind of thing could still show up in AdMech or Tempestus. In both cases, they'd fit in well.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Gee, it's almost like someone else has already suggested a lot of this stuff just more in-depth and actually relevant.

TBH I was going to engage with some of your ideas earlier in the thread, but the tone of 'decree from on high' is really obnoxious, and the sarcasm isn't doing any favors.

One of the biggest issues, personally, I have with text medium is that statement can come across as 'decrees from on high' or 'sarcasm'.

I've been involved in threads relating to this topic time and time again, and even when I just sit back and watch the thing that consistently remains clear is that nobody will be happy unless their Regiment is represented somehow. And it's not just relating to models--they want better rules, etc. That's why I said what I did relating to splitting things up rules-wise. It's why I am very insistent that Guard need to either be radically redesigned or a 'Primarising' needs to happen. There's too much baggage with the Regiments and the designs to keep just limping along like we are.

 catbarf wrote:


Do you know of any companies that are selling those individual bits and sprues that produce in plastic, rather than resin? Resin is significantly more conducive to that sort of mix-and-match sales.

I think GW would probably stay away from any business model that precludes them from selling a single, complete boxed set. Intelligent sprue design coupled with an online-only service to buy individual sprues could make the mix-and-match approach viable, but I wouldn't hold my breath for it actually happening.

Nope, all resin. But at one stage Baneblades and Thunderhawks were only resin models too.

A "that's how we've always done it" argument isn't always the best way forwards. The fact other companies produce these items, not matter the medium, shows there is a market.

Being able to walk into a shop and buy a whole army off the shelf may have some advantages, but how many people actually do that?

 Kanluwen wrote:

Except when they don't? There were slews of heads across the Empire range that were just gorgeous. It just seems like people always remember the bad ones.

I didn't say every single one did, just that they do all too often.

Valhallans and Krieg have different designs for coats. It doesn't work.
Vostroyans additionally are closer to Steel Legion than they are any of those.

Sure, though that said, models lines can change and be adapted (we've seen that with many GW lines, including IG such as Cadians and Stormtroopers), as long as it's done well, it's not the end of the world, and I also noted it could be for different regiments altogether, there's plenty of those to explore.

If you have any shops with them, then someone ordered them. They aren't a regular stock item and haven't been for almost a decade.

I can't comment on the ordering, and I don't know what are mandated purchases by GW for different stocking levels, I can only comment on what I've actually seen when they have appeared on shelves, though these days mostly I don't see them period.

As for "what to do with them"? Look in the fricking codex. They clearly have been doing art and concepting on the Cadians and Catachans.

Yes they have been doing art, but I'm not seeing any art that's particularly radically different from what we had in previous editions, aside from just being different artists I'm not sure what shifts in concept I'm missing, if you have an example to point out I'm all for exploring it, however again I'm not sure the vibe in general has the draw that it did back in the late 80's/early 90's.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Except when they don't? There were slews of heads across the Empire range that were just gorgeous. It just seems like people always remember the bad ones.

I didn't say every single one did, just that they do all too often.

Valhallans and Krieg have different designs for coats. It doesn't work.
Vostroyans additionally are closer to Steel Legion than they are any of those.

Sure, though that said, models lines can change and be adapted (we've seen that with many GW lines, including IG such as Cadians and Stormtroopers), as long as it's done well, it's not the end of the world, and I also noted it could be for different regiments altogether, there's plenty of those to explore.

Worth mentioning that Scions are a much, much better concepting of the 'Stormtrooper' design than the existing ones were. They actually look like they are an Imperial entity rather than just some local variant.

If you have any shops with them, then someone ordered them. They aren't a regular stock item and haven't been for almost a decade.

I can't comment on the ordering, and I don't know what are mandated purchases by GW for different stocking levels, I can only comment on what I've actually seen when they have appeared on shelves, though these days mostly I don't see them period.

Mandated purchases wouldn't include items that are Direct Only--which Catachans are. The notation of "someone ordered them" refers to someone having either placed the order themselves and had it shipped to store(if at a GW shop) or had their local shop place the order...or there might just be someone in charge of ordering who didn't know the kit and was using a third party distributor rather than a trade account.

As for "what to do with them"? Look in the fricking codex. They clearly have been doing art and concepting on the Cadians and Catachans.

Yes they have been doing art, but I'm not seeing any art that's particularly radically different from what we had in previous editions, aside from just being different artists I'm not sure what shifts in concept I'm missing, if you have an example to point out I'm all for exploring it, however again I'm not sure the vibe in general has the draw that it did back in the late 80's/early 90's.

With regards to the art? It's sitting right there on page 19 for the Cadians and 21 for Catachans in the Guard codex for 8th edition. There's also (arguably) page 26 for the Catachans(Armageddon Ork Hunters) and pages 28 and 29 for Cadian-esque designs. Notable shifts for the Cadians are that the armor is bulkier, with the helmets being slimmed down a bit more. Catachans have been seeing armor plates added to them in some places or the vests bulked up to make it clear that there's plates in them.

The models that I've been pointing to are worth mentioning as well. If GW's doing them for events(Ripper Jackson is for store openings, the Colonel was intended to be a store anniversary model--hence the 10k physically produced)? They've got people working on them for general sale as well.

Kayback wrote:
Nope, all resin. But at one stage Baneblades and Thunderhawks were only resin models too.

A "that's how we've always done it" argument isn't always the best way forwards. The fact other companies produce these items, not matter the medium, shows there is a market.

Being able to walk into a shop and buy a whole army off the shelf may have some advantages, but how many people actually do that?

I think maybe you're not recognizing the differences in production economies between resin and plastic production. Resin sprues are small, limited to only a couple of parts at most, and can be cast by hand on demand without too much trouble. Plastic sprues are all-encompassing, cost anywhere from $25,000-100,000 apiece, and require a (also very expensive) injection mold machine to use. With resin, you can just grab bits off the shelf as needed and cast whatever's low in stock. With plastic, a kit is composed of one, sometimes two, maybe three molds at most (each sprue in a box is typically half a mold) and requires time allocation in your production cycle, so if demand is high for one sprue and not the others this becomes a logistical problem.

I get that demand is there. I absolutely do not believe that there is sufficient demand to warrant separating out kits by sprue and selling them individually. I'd sooner expect a return of the old bits service, a niche which third-party resellers have been providing ever since GW discontinued theirs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:
And it's not just relating to models--they want better rules, etc. That's why I said what I did relating to splitting things up rules-wise. It's why I am very insistent that Guard need to either be radically redesigned or a 'Primarising' needs to happen. There's too much baggage with the Regiments and the designs to keep just limping along like we are.

I do understand where you're coming from, and I think 30K gives us a good reference point.

In 30K, you have access to the Solar Auxilia list, which is a standardized and 'modern' force with a distinct style and TOE. Or, you can take the Imperial Cults & Militia list, which is a catch-all for basically any normal human force.

I could see GW doing something similar in 40K: Guilliman reforms the Imperial Army with a new force organization, new units, and new sculpts, while a second list exists to accommodate the non-reformed forces.

Not commenting on whether I think it would be a good approach or not, but it would be consistent with their product line revisions to date. That said, I doubt a total overhaul and unified standardization is in the cards, given the Catachan sculpts that just released. You'd think if GW was building up to a Guard overhaul and re-release, we'd be seeing characters with a single, consistent aesthetic that was either 'generic Imperial' or something new, rather than as stylized as the Catachans.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I don-t want "Gothic" guard. Gothic can be saved for the sisters of battle, and a few of the more religious SM orgs.

I would like IG to stay with the theme of being war movies in space. The WWI-WWII vehicle aesthetic, the modernish infantry aesthetic.

That's what makes Guard attractive and not gakky marines.

This may be the course to chart. They need to have an aesthetic that is distinctive yet recognizable. And not something that Warlord Games already produces. For GW the juice must be worth the squeeze, so I doubt the vehicles will change. And really, the IG has always been about the vehicles.

I pulled out my 2nd Ed IG Codex (which cost me $15 in 1996 - on sale from $26 win!) and the Catachan image on page 75 is absolutely Arnie from Predator. I have that model and he still fights on my tabletop alongside Schaefer. I think that 1998 was the highwater mark for IG/AM design. We had all the lines with all the models. Then those plastic Catachans came.

I do like my Scions, and I could get behind a 1920s vision of the future (but not Admech) Astra Militarum grounded in a WW1 vibe with just a little bit of Arnie from Predator. Easy! And a hint of the Colonial Marines from Aliens would be nice. With a Greatcoat version for those so inclined.

With respect to the codex art, I think most of that is just different artist's style relative to those that worked on older books, as opposed to an intentional reconceptualization, and the differences to me don't appear to be particularly huge and certainly no more variant from existing ranges relative to the other Regiments also portrayed in the book. The new Exclusive models for Catachans certainly have better scuplting than the plastic kits, but command character models also always have extra gubbins and fancier stuff than general Troops do. When GW redid Marbo not too long ago, he looks much more like the current basic troops in terms of armor (or lack thereof) and look. I think if they did all the Catachans with armor like the powerfist character has, it might work better, but I think that's more of a distinguishing thing for that Character, and ultimately, I still think the biggest problem with them is that the 80's overmuscled US Action Hero look just doesn't have the draw it once did. I think almost everyone picking up those models are doing so to put on a shelf for collector purposes as opposed to really being into the Catachan vibe, though I freely admit that could just be me.

A new IG aesthetic to replace the Cadians? My suggestion would be the Murmillo gladiator of Imperial Rome as a base. Just the helmet and breastplate (should simplify the breastplate as molded muscle cuirasses are a Blood Angel aesthetic), maybe kneepads instead of greaves. Rest of the uniform should be conventional contemporary BDU based. Don't know if a bullpup configuration works for lasguns, but it gets away from the current lasgun design.

If GW doesn't want to go too far afield, they could use the Steel Legion, or as pointed out earlier, the Chem-dogs. I think the suggestion of contrasting the Marines (the Knights of Christ in SPACE!!!) with scruffy Chem-dogs is a good one. The Imperium has a caste system: exploit that look.

As for Catachans, I have not seen an entire army of them fielded since 3rd ed. when the plastic boxes were first sold. Otherwise, it has been all plastic Cadians.

TangoTwoBravo also brings up a good point. The new aesthetic has to be different enough that potential customers don't buy Warlord historicals and just add bits. If I did start an IG army, I'd do Praetorians, and I'd compare Perry and Warlord Games Zulu war British Infantry to find which gets me the most for my money, then get Victoria Miniatures bits to tune and trim. (I do have some of the original metal Praetorian HW teams and special weapons. Would have gone further but was gifted with a fair amount of marine kits, so marines it was.)

 Ancestral Hamster wrote:
A new IG aesthetic to replace the Cadians? My suggestion would be the Murmillo gladiator of Imperial Rome as a base. Just the helmet and breastplate (should simplify the breastplate as molded muscle cuirasses are a Blood Angel aesthetic), maybe kneepads instead of greaves. Rest of the uniform should be conventional contemporary BDU based. Don't know if a bullpup configuration works for lasguns, but it gets away from the current lasgun design.

If GW doesn't want to go too far afield, they could use the Steel Legion, or as pointed out earlier, the Chem-dogs. I think the suggestion of contrasting the Marines (the Knights of Christ in SPACE!!!) with scruffy Chem-dogs is a good one. The Imperium has a caste system: exploit that look.

As for Catachans, I have not seen an entire army of them fielded since 3rd ed. when the plastic boxes were first sold. Otherwise, it has been all plastic Cadians.

TangoTwoBravo also brings up a good point. The new aesthetic has to be different enough that potential customers don't buy Warlord historicals and just add bits. If I did start an IG army, I'd do Praetorians, and I'd compare Perry and Warlord Games Zulu war British Infantry to find which gets me the most for my money, then get Victoria Miniatures bits to tune and trim. (I do have some of the original metal Praetorian HW teams and special weapons. Would have gone further but was gifted with a fair amount of marine kits, so marines it was.)

My first guardsmen were Catachan, so at one time my army was an army of catachans with green army men helping out. But Catachans couldn't be conveniently impulse bought after school at the local store, so now there's like a platoon of Catachans and a lot of Cadians.

There's a local guy who has a whole army of Catachans though. They're pretty badly in need of a re-vamp, but they have the most fun characters.

I would suggest that the boxes should contain more than 10 models. Maybe 25, so that you could build 2 infantry squads and a command. To keep the size down this would have to fit into 3-4 sprues. Then the models should probably be mostly monopose, preferably a mix of male and female sculpts. I would prefer if some popular regiments could recieve a full box each, like steel legion, tallarns, valhallans rather than mixing bits for regiments. Make them proper with no real concept changes.

 catbarf wrote:


I think maybe you're not recognizing the differences in production economies between resin and plastic production. Resin sprues are small, limited to only a couple of parts at most, and can be cast by hand on demand without too much trouble. Plastic sprues are all-encompassing, cost anywhere from $25,000-100,000 apiece, .

I do believe I specifically mentioned the high cost of plastic sprue molds, so I am fully aware of the high cost of plastic sprue molds. Everyone's suggestion requires new molds.


By revamping how the models are molded and sold will improve the Guard kit.

Personally with the advancement of the timeline I don't think the regression of the tech level of the IG into barbarianism or chem-dog is the correct way forwards. You may as well field an army of gun-servitors or Khornate cultists. I do think there is plenty of scope in the lore for Chem dogs, you could even justify it in the current timeline with the argument resources are being diverted to Primaris, the need to artificially improve the soldiers to be better fits for the new Marines and such but then you're just going to AoS most IG armies. Revamping the *IG* itself is a different discussion to what would improve the current IG models.

More heads, more guns, more torsos, basically more choice for customization. But keeping box set prices down. That'll require changing how they are made and sold.

Kayback wrote:

 catbarf wrote:


I think maybe you're not recognizing the differences in production economies between resin and plastic production. Resin sprues are small, limited to only a couple of parts at most, and can be cast by hand on demand without too much trouble. Plastic sprues are all-encompassing, cost anywhere from $25,000-100,000 apiece, .

I do believe I specifically mentioned the high cost of plastic sprue molds, so I am fully aware of the high cost of plastic sprue molds. Everyone's suggestion requires new molds.


By revamping how the models are molded and sold will improve the Guard kit.

Personally with the advancement of the timeline I don't think the regression of the tech level of the IG into barbarianism or chem-dog is the correct way forwards. You may as well field an army of gun-servitors or Khornate cultists. I do think there is plenty of scope in the lore for Chem dogs, you could even justify it in the current timeline with the argument resources are being diverted to Primaris, the need to artificially improve the soldiers to be better fits for the new Marines and such but then you're just going to AoS most IG armies. Revamping the *IG* itself is a different discussion to what would improve the current IG models.

More heads, more guns, more torsos, basically more choice for customization. But keeping box set prices down. That'll require changing how they are made and sold.

We need something new, and modern - so how about IG players now have to mail-order their entire army?

Maybe they can use a printed catalog and paper order forms too?

Like I get we're wishlisting here, but really the trend of GW is exactly opposite of this - going for impulse buys of detailed but monopose miniatures.

I’d welcome new IG models, a revamp if Cadians and Catachans would be cool, as well as some representation for other Regiments. I don’t really see individual sprues etc getting sold though as has been mentioned in previous posts, the logistics/cost of plastic molds seems to preclude it, especially when opportunity cost is taken int account.

That being said, in the spirit of wishlisting, it seems to me that the IG line is primarily based on WW1 and WW2 real world armies and pop culture action movies of the 80s/90s: Predator, Aliens, Commando, Rambo and Starship Troopers in particular spring to mind.

If the army was to be launched now, referencing current pop culture from the past decade or so what big movies etc do you think would be the source of inspiration? That might be the direction needed for any new kit revamps, to draw in new players with familiar touchstones.

I’m not sure I can think of anything as iconic as Predator/Aliens/Commando/Rambo were in the 90s, but that probably my age.

Would be interested in hearing suggestions on this!!

Interesting point aash. Pop culture icons today seems to be mostly superheroes wich are not applicable to imperial guard. War movies and such really dont produce action heroes anymore. Also gw seems to move away from pop culture references in their new products as they want more copyright friendly models.

However I could see them making guard into either steam punk or more generic sci fi soldiers if they were to redesign them.

Gitdakka wrote:
Interesting point aash. Pop culture icons today seems to be mostly superheroes wich are not applicable to imperial guard. War movies and such really dont produce action heroes anymore. Also gw seems to move away from pop culture references in their new products as they want more copyright friendly models.

However I could see them making guard into either steam punk or more generic sci fi soldiers if they were to redesign them.

I don’t see them going in the steampunk direction for IG, though it would be cool. I think that niche is more in the wheelhouse of AdMech / Skitarii.

Aash wrote:
If the army was to be launched now, referencing current pop culture from the past decade or so what big movies etc do you think would be the source of inspiration?

Call of Duty: Modern Warfare, obviously.

 AtoMaki wrote:

Aash wrote:
If the army was to be launched now, referencing current pop culture from the past decade or so what big movies etc do you think would be the source of inspiration?

Call of Duty: Modern Warfare, obviously.

Fair enough. I don’t play it, and don’t think I’d recognise if models were designed with that as inspiration. Is the call of duty look particularly iconic?

Edit:

I guess what I’m saying, is back in the 90s/early 00s when I was starting out in 40k I remember looking at the model range of IG and others doing the same and saying things like “oh cool, it’s like WW2 tanks with Rambo in space” or “oh wow, I could make an army that’s like Aliens meets Starship Troopers! I’m getting some of these!” I just don’t see that sort of hook with the current IG stuff, maybe Call of Duty would have that kind of appeal for new players, but I think that’s passed me by!

Aash wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

Aash wrote:
If the army was to be launched now, referencing current pop culture from the past decade or so what big movies etc do you think would be the source of inspiration?

Call of Duty: Modern Warfare, obviously.

Fair enough. I don’t play it, and don’t think I’d recognise if models were designed with that as inspiration. Is the call of duty look particularly iconic?

Don't worry, I'm 99% sure that you would actually recognize the CoD visuals. You might not think about it while we just talk, but it is an almost guaranteed hit if you can look at an actual model. At worst you know the style on a different name like 'operator' or 'tacticool' - but both of these were basically invented by CoD .

 AtoMaki wrote:

Aash wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

Aash wrote:
If the army was to be launched now, referencing current pop culture from the past decade or so what big movies etc do you think would be the source of inspiration?

Call of Duty: Modern Warfare, obviously.

Fair enough. I don’t play it, and don’t think I’d recognise if models were designed with that as inspiration. Is the call of duty look particularly iconic?

Don't worry, I'm 99% sure that you would actually recognize the CoD visuals. You might not think about it while we just talk, but it is an almost guaranteed hit if you can look at an actual model. At worst you know the style on a different name like 'operator' or 'tacticool' - but both of these were basically invented by CoD .

You could be right, I’d probably need to see the models to know if they’d register like that for me. I guess I think of the tacticool look as more of a generic military aesthetic rather than having a specific point of inspiration. I wasn’t aware tat Call of Duty was where the look was first introduced/popularised.

I think I miss the the feeling I got when I saw the models and artwork when I started 40k where almost everything was inspired by (ripped off?!) from an established IP. I loved that IG was like Predator and Aliens, and that Tyranids/genestealers were like xenomorphs, Necrons were an army of Terminators, Arbites were like Judge Dredd etc.

It’s also cool that the 40k range has established its own look and has developed into its own independent IP and formed it’s own identity, but I still miss the more obvious sources of pop culture “inspiration”.

I feel like 1 kit isn't really enough to make or represent guard.

otoh, sure you could make an extremely customizable kit, with 2 legs / torsoes, etc. but A that would probably be the most expensive infantry box ever and B, it would be for an army that does need a decent degree of quantity.

If i could i'd probably go for 3 kits.

1 is modern aka an updated Cadian sprue or totally diffrent

1 is greatcoat ( not much to say, between the Godwin one and or krieger in plastic theres a whole slew of options, heck even armageddon would be on the plate imo.)

1 is PDF which is basically autoguns and impro / old equipment.

@not online!!! That pdf box could be used for chaos cultists aswell wich is also needed.

Gitdakka wrote:
@not online!!! That pdf box could be used for chaos cultists aswell wich is also needed.

add in a sprue like for GSC with heads and icons and knives / pistols trophies and bam done.
Actually i didn't even think about that and thought more along the line of conscripts.

Which on another note, why can't conscripts get HWT's again one would imagine that to counterbalance their abismal offensive capabilites and their use as stopgap , they'd get all the stubbers left over?

Not Online!!! wrote:
I feel like 1 kit isn't really enough to make or represent guard.

otoh, sure you could make an extremely customizable kit, with 2 legs / torsoes, etc. but A that would probably be the most expensive infantry box ever and B, it would be for an army that does need a decent degree of quantity.

If i could i'd probably go for 3 kits.

1 is modern aka an updated Cadian sprue or totally diffrent

1 is greatcoat ( not much to say, between the Godwin one and or krieger in plastic theres a whole slew of options, heck even armageddon would be on the plate imo.)

1 is PDF which is basically autoguns and impro / old equipment.

I could see this happening, and get behind.

3 kits representing multiple regiments could work. One with great coats as you say, but with alternate options for the heads to represent Valhallan and Krieg maybe.

One that could have alternate parts for cadia inspired by Aliens/ starship troopers mobile infantry as an updated range and alternate parts to make them more Tacticool.

And a third to represent PDF/conscripts maybe.

And then upgrade sprues for additional add ons for flavour like the space marine chapters get. Not sure if that leaves room for an updated Catachan range though.

Give me death korps in plastic please please. I can’t handle anymore rotten resin. Hate the stuff

 Knockagh wrote:
Give me death korps in plastic please please. I can’t handle anymore rotten resin. Hate the stuff

Honestly, resin isn't the problem, it's that FW / GW resin is just subpar quality.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Gitdakka wrote:
@not online!!! That pdf box could be used for chaos cultists aswell wich is also needed.

add in a sprue like for GSC with heads and icons and knives / pistols trophies and bam done.
Actually i didn't even think about that and thought more along the line of conscripts.

Which on another note, why can't conscripts get HWT's again one would imagine that to counterbalance their abismal offensive capabilites and their use as stopgap , they'd get all the stubbers left over?

This is a very good point. They should release a kit that works for multiple factions, I’m sure it would sell well enough to justify its cost:

PDF
Renegade Guard
Chaos cultists
GSC
Tau gue’vesa
Conscripts.

I saw Kopinski brought up earlier, back when I was younger I got my hand on some Rackham AT-43 books which also contained a lot of Kopinski art. The guy below was cut from one of the artworks he made and they would make perfect guardsmen with some tweaks. (incidentally, this exact figure was never released as a model for the game). Also I want autoguns for guardsmen, Chaos cultists, Genestealers and even the Necromunda kits place a higher emphasize on Autoweapons, the caseless guns mentioned in some of the older works would be an interesting concept to explore.

Aash wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Gitdakka wrote:
@not online!!! That pdf box could be used for chaos cultists aswell wich is also needed.

add in a sprue like for GSC with heads and icons and knives / pistols trophies and bam done.
Actually i didn't even think about that and thought more along the line of conscripts.

Which on another note, why can't conscripts get HWT's again one would imagine that to counterbalance their abismal offensive capabilites and their use as stopgap , they'd get all the stubbers left over?

This is a very good point. They should release a kit that works for multiple factions, I’m sure it would sell well enough to justify its cost:

PDF
Renegade Guard
Chaos cultists
GSC
Tau gue’vesa
Conscripts.

The GSC made me think maybe we're getting "Tacticool" IG, their bikes and FAV's had me thinking Desert Storm special forces, but alas.

I'd be exceptionally wary about wishing for a new Guard kit.

This is 100% a "be careful what you wish for" situation, given GW's current design philosophy towards miniatures.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I'd be exceptionally wary about wishing for a new Guard kit.

This is 100% a "be careful what you wish for" situation, given GW's current design philosophy towards miniatures.

Other than the price per model going up (which is inevitable with a new kit) I’m not sure what you mean?

I like the majority of the new models released since 8th Ed started.

Caradman Sturnn wrote:
I saw Kopinski brought up earlier, back when I was younger I got my hand on some Rackham AT-43 books which also contained a lot of Kopinski art. The guy below was cut from one of the artworks he made and they would make perfect guardsmen with some tweaks. (incidentally, this exact figure was never released as a model for the game). Also I want autoguns for guardsmen, Chaos cultists, Genestealers and even the Necromunda kits place a higher emphasize on Autoweapons, the caseless guns mentioned in some of the older works would be an interesting concept to explore.

Spoiler:

That’s a lovely piece of art. If GW realeaseda kit like that I think it’d be very good.

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
First and foremost they would need to get the scale right.

Gotta agree here. The guardsmen were always the problem in scale. FW get it right yet GW proper didn't.

GW releases Primaris, as Cadians are as big as normal SM models to compensate.
GW then releases BSF traitor guard that are bigger than the Cadians.

Community:

 Grimtuff wrote:

Gotta agree here. The guardsmen were always the problem in scale. FW get it right yet GW proper didn't.

The plastic stuff only. The metal mini's are pretty on spot with the scale.

Kayback wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

Gotta agree here. The guardsmen were always the problem in scale. FW get it right yet GW proper didn't.

The plastic stuff only. The metal mini's are pretty on spot with the scale.

Yes, should have specified. It's them plastic Cadians that have been eating their Weetabix.

really tough choice for GW IMHO. Some of the appeal of the Regiments are the distinct differences and references that are attached to them. My current set is Cadian bodies with gasmask Pith helmets from 3rd party, love the look.

However, if it was going to be about redoing a line completely.....

I think going tacticool would be smart marketing wise, but then aren't we stepping on Militarum Tempestus too much (I do love elysian drop trooper looks)?

realistically, the entire line and fluff is heavily invested in Cadia...so they'd probably just redo that line completely. Next up would be catachans (based on recent miniatures).
The only way to appease the populace would be upgrade sprues.

 Grimtuff wrote:

Kayback wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

Gotta agree here. The guardsmen were always the problem in scale. FW get it right yet GW proper didn't.

The plastic stuff only. The metal mini's are pretty on spot with the scale.

Yes, should have specified. It's them plastic Cadians that have been eating their Weetabix.

Lol I say that I just lined up my Praetorians, Metal Cadians, Plastic Cadians and an older Marine to check the scale. My Metal Vostroyan is a GIANT!

 bullyboy wrote:
I think going tacticool would be smart marketing wise, but then aren't we stepping on Militarum Tempestus too much (I do love elysian drop trooper looks)?

The Tempestus moved to gothic, the real tacticool competition would be the Primaris.

Kayback wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

Kayback wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

Gotta agree here. The guardsmen were always the problem in scale. FW get it right yet GW proper didn't.

The plastic stuff only. The metal mini's are pretty on spot with the scale.

Yes, should have specified. It's them plastic Cadians that have been eating their Weetabix.

Lol I say that I just lined up my Praetorians, Metal Cadians, Plastic Cadians and an older Marine to check the scale. My Metal Vostroyan is a GIANT!

How much of that is the Big Fur Hat?

On the vehicle side: one thing I would find really cool would be to make them even more modular. Just to get the general idea: imagine 3 chassis with a distinctive look (T6/W10, T7/W11, T8/W12) combined with the turret options that more or less fit each.

I personally would like the possibility to build a heavy Basilisk (T8 hull, Basilisk "turret") or a light tank (T6 hull, Leman Russ turret) etc. And I would like the T6 chassis to look different from the T7 as I currently don't really see why the Salamander is T7 but the Basilisk is T6. But that is personal preference.

But take that just as a wild idea thrown into the ring for discussion

 AtoMaki wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
I think going tacticool would be smart marketing wise, but then aren't we stepping on Militarum Tempestus too much (I do love elysian drop trooper looks)?

The Tempestus moved to gothic, the real tacticool competition would be the Primaris.

People keep saying this...Primaris are no more "tacticool" than the previous Tactical/Devastator Marines or FW's non-Legion specific armor marks. Look at the Eliminators for example: they have pouches on their belts with a sigil of the Emperor's face. The idea is that they touch their rounds to it before firing(per Goodwin).

Biggest thing to remember is that we're not seeing the 'relic' armors that we have in the past. This stuff is mass produced. It's fresh armor, like the days of the Great Crusade. There's no spirits associated with it yet.

Pyroalchi wrote:
On the vehicle side: one thing I would find really cool would be to make them even more modular. Just to get the general idea: imagine 3 chassis with a distinctive look (T6/W10, T7/W11, T8/W12) combined with the turret options that more or less fit each.

I personally would like the possibility to build a heavy Basilisk (T8 hull, Basilisk "turret") or a light tank (T6 hull, Leman Russ turret) etc. And I would like the T6 chassis to look different from the T7 as I currently don't really see why the Salamander is T7 but the Basilisk is T6. But that is personal preference.

But take that just as a wild idea thrown into the ring for discussion

Or we could take a 'less is more' approach and actually use the stuff we already have? We don't need Leman Russ chassis running around with Earthshaker Cannons.

As for why the Salamander is T7 while the Basilisk(and Wyvern and Hydra) is T6? It's crew exposure. The Basilisk(Wyvern and Hydra) all have a moderately more exposed crew compartment compared to the Salamander variants. It looks the same, but a big element is that the Basilisk(Wyvern and Hydra) have an elevated platform that the crew are on while the Salamander has them hunkered down in the hull.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
I think going tacticool would be smart marketing wise, but then aren't we stepping on Militarum Tempestus too much (I do love elysian drop trooper looks)?

The Tempestus moved to gothic, the real tacticool competition would be the Primaris.

People keep saying this...Primaris are no more "tacticool" than the previous Tactical/Devastator Marines or FW's non-Legion specific armor marks.

You mean beyond the picatinny rails, teacupping pistols, unironical skull masks, and pretty much the entire Vanguard line in general?

If you want to play the edit game, just remember that I posted a bit about a Vanguard unit that goes against your argument about 'tacticool'. Just because they are not drowning in purity seals, candles, and have script in their armor doesn't mean the intention was "tAcTiCoOl" alone.

Go and look at some of the art early on for Cadians. There's a piece from the Eye of Terror book that I think was Kopinski showing a Cadian with purity seals and devotionary text strapped to his gear, along with finger bones lashed to his pauldron. The 'grimdark' for 40k comes from stuff that can be added. Without that element? 40k's been just generic syfy fare.

 Kanluwen wrote:
If you want to play the edit game, just remember that I posted a bit about a Vanguard unit that goes against your argument about 'tacticool'.

Uhm... it doesn't? Skulls (especially skull masks), superstitious crap, and spooky details are actually tacticool. Grimdark and tacticool are not mutually exclusive, I don't know what you want to prove here.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Biggest thing to remember is that we're not seeing the 'relic' armors that we have in the past. This stuff is mass produced. It's fresh armor, like the days of the Great Crusade. There's no spirits associated with it yet.

Well, yeah- that's a big part of the 'tacticool' perception. Their equipment has gone from relics of a forgotten time, imbued with reverence and history, to mass-produced wonders of high technology.

It's like going from Pashtun tribesmen handing down their battered old rifles through the generations, each adding their own touches and battle scars such that no two weapons are unique, to Navy SEALs using cutting-edge high-tech weapons fresh off the production line and identical to all the others. It's a pretty significant tonal shift.

Pyroalchi wrote:
On the vehicle side: one thing I would find really cool would be to make them even more modular. Just to get the general idea: imagine 3 chassis with a distinctive look (T6/W10, T7/W11, T8/W12) combined with the turret options that more or less fit each.

I personally would like the possibility to build a heavy Basilisk (T8 hull, Basilisk "turret") or a light tank (T6 hull, Leman Russ turret) etc. And I would like the T6 chassis to look different from the T7 as I currently don't really see why the Salamander is T7 but the Basilisk is T6. But that is personal preference.

But take that just as a wild idea thrown into the ring for discussion

Because the basilisk is unprotected.


I think a gun-armed light tank and a tank destroyer would be cool additions to the line. A gun-armed light tank would be basically like maybe a Hellhound with the Taurox Battle Cannon. A heavy TD would be the return of the Destroyer, and a light TD [more along the lines of what I'm thinking] might be a big heavy direct-fire laser cannon or something on a basilisk chassis, looking like a JPZ1.

Also, maybe a light mortar carrier would be cool.

By the way, the Basilisk Leman Russ is actually a thing.

My point was more (but that might be my personal problem) that in both cases I see open toped chimera chassis. But I see that there is already some abstraction at work since technically no matter how well protected the hull of the Manticore and Deathstrike are: both carry large, unarmored missiles and one good hit there should blow them up pretty quick.

Nontheless: I think such a "modularity" in vehicle design would not be that hard to transfer ruleswise. One could maybe separate the hull costs/toughness/wounds from the turret. So a Leman Russ would be T8 W10 hull + T8 W2 turret + BC, a Basilisk might be T7 W9 hull + a T5 W 1 gunshield + an eartshaker resulting in a T6 W10 vehicle etc.
Again: just a wild thought. What I find attractive about that is that with relatively small effort one could create the opportunity for quite some variation in models while keeping the whole simpleness of STCs as described in the fluff. And from GWs perspective the number of kits would be relatively small. Two or three hull kits (with some upgrades like track guard etc.), a "turrets" kit including heavy (LR), medium (Hellhound) and light (Chimera/Baneblade sponson) and an artillery kit with the missiles, a gunshield that fits earthshakers as well as Hydras, the Hydra/Wyvern gun and a heavy mortar/Medusa/earthshaker gun that might share parts similar to the current battlecannon/Vanquisher gun.

Just to dream a bit from there one could scrab the "intermediate" Malcador or rather change it to having 2 turret mounts which might (!) make it situational interesting even without doubletap option.

Stylewise I personally like the general concept of the current line but I think some areas like the LR "engine deck" could use some more details. And (again personal preference) the calibers of the guns could be toned down a bit and the turrets enlarged to make it more believable that someone really manages to load these cannons.

Pyroalchi wrote:
Stylewise I personally like the general concept of the current line but I think some areas like the LR "engine deck" could use some more details. And (again personal preference) the calibers of the guns could be toned down a bit and the turrets enlarged to make it more believable that someone really manages to load these cannons.

The Leman Russes (supposedly) have autoloaders. AFAIK their cannons being manually loaded was taken from the Tanith First and Only books by Forge World to figure out how the crew of 4 works (it is actually commander + driver + gunner + comms/hull gunner).

Pyroalchi wrote:
My point was more (but that might be my personal problem) that in both cases I see open toped chimera chassis. But I see that there is already some abstraction at work since technically no matter how well protected the hull of the Manticore and Deathstrike are: both carry large, unarmored missiles and one good hit there should blow them up pretty quick.

Nontheless: I think such a "modularity" in vehicle design would not be that hard to transfer ruleswise. One could maybe separate the hull costs/toughness/wounds from the turret. So a Leman Russ would be T8 W10 hull + T8 W2 turret + BC, a Basilisk might be T7 W9 hull + a T5 W 1 gunshield + an eartshaker resulting in a T6 W10 vehicle etc.
Again: just a wild thought. What I find attractive about that is that with relatively small effort one could create the opportunity for quite some variation in models while keeping the whole simpleness of STCs as described in the fluff. And from GWs perspective the number of kits would be relatively small. Two or three hull kits (with some upgrades like track guard etc.), a "turrets" kit including heavy (LR), medium (Hellhound) and light (Chimera/Baneblade sponson) and an artillery kit with the missiles, a gunshield that fits earthshakers as well as Hydras, the Hydra/Wyvern gun and a heavy mortar/Medusa/earthshaker gun that might share parts similar to the current battlecannon/Vanquisher gun.

Just to dream a bit from there one could scrab the "intermediate" Malcador or rather change it to having 2 turret mounts which might (!) make it situational interesting even without doubletap option.

Stylewise I personally like the general concept of the current line but I think some areas like the LR "engine deck" could use some more details. And (again personal preference) the calibers of the guns could be toned down a bit and the turrets enlarged to make it more believable that someone really manages to load these cannons.

I'm not really sure about the mix&match turrets thing, but yeah, better scaling/archtitechture would be cool.

This could be solved model wise by simply adopting the Demolisher "wide" turret for all Leman Russ kits, doing away with the "narrow" turret and moving the commander's hatch to the side. The Leman Russ has a bunch of problems though, including a tall hull, small turret ring, and tiny turret. At the same time, I wouldn't want to change it's signature look for a more realistic one, maybe just adjust it so it doesn't look like the commander's legs are in the same place as the breech.

As for the mix/match hulls/turrets, it doesn't really make sense to me. Vehicle families are a thing since sharing parts between all the vehicles is good, but having the same vehicle on multiple set ups sounds like a recipe for "entertaining" logistical problems.



Technically, the Chimera in on the Basilisk chassis. The Legion Basilisk uses a recognizable modern basilisk chassis with some SM-styled greebling, and existed before the Chimera was created, so the Imperium had an spg and then said "hey, we can make an IFV out of this!"

My headcannon says that after the creation of the Leman Russ during the Great Crusade, and effort was made to standardize the army onto the Leman Russ chassis out of a desire for a vehicle family and streamlined production flow as the Russ replaced the Carnodon, thus explaining the Leman Russ Basilisk. But it was just too small for an effective APC design to replace the Aurox and the artillery variants weren't really all that ergonomical or well set up for the mounting of heavy artillery. But when the legions were broken and the Basilisks became available, it was realized that the larger Basilisk chassis could form the standardized vehicle family for the newly reformed Imperial Guard, and the Leman Russ was kept as the only out-of-family vehicle.

Kind of on-topic but not quite, modifying the standard Russ turret to have the hatch jutting out to one side (like the Macharius) would be cool af and, as ILK said, go some way toward explaining how the commander doesn’t get his legs pulverised every time the cannon fires.

 DalekCheese wrote:
go some way toward explaining how the commander doesn’t get his legs pulverised every time the cannon fires.

As with many things in WH40K I've come to the conclusion the answer is "magic".

There is so much wrong with the size of the vehicles it isn't worth thinking about. I know the crew compartment can be fairly tight but there is only enough space in a Russ for about 6 shells, even if you are going with caseless ammo. Heck look at the Marine models, they've generally only got one mag for their bolters.

But I still think the heroic scale vehicle weapons looks cool. Scale tank weapons always look puny.

i just figured the turret being that small and the gun being that big was part of the heroic scaling, and therefore exaggerated.
I also headcannon the russ's battle cannon to basically be a howitzer, for it's short range and HE effect on the tabletop.
Would make sense for it to recoil into a small turret becasue the recoil would be miimal in comparison to even a mid velocity cannon.

I mean it's mainly going against fortified positions, lightly armoured xenos skimmers, monsters, infantry and other tractor tanks, to think it actually has to be good is A redundant due to the nature of it's design and B irrelevant due to what it's having to fight. Better to go the route of the ISU152 stick a big arse howitzer in it and drop tons of ordnance on the enemy and in my opinion this suits the guard nicely.

In this line of logic the Vanquisher, actually being armed with a gun and not a howitzer or mortar either has a much smaller gun(which would make sense why it does not have a HE option), or advanced recoil systems. But that is kind of irrelevant becasue it's trash unfortunately.

Just like the Cadian's rifles, they are very big. Or the guard heavy weapons, 2 people seriously can''t carry something that big around.

 OldMate wrote:
i just figured the turret being that small and the gun being that big was part of the heroic scaling, and therefore exaggerated.
I also headcannon the russ's battle cannon to basically be a howitzer, for it's short range and HE effect on the tabletop.
Would make sense for it to recoil into a small turret becasue the recoil would be miimal in comparison to even a mid velocity cannon.

I mean it's mainly going against fortified positions, lightly armoured xenos skimmers, monsters, infantry and other tractor tanks, to think it actually has to be good is A redundant due to the nature of it's design and B irrelevant due to what it's having to fight. Better to go the route of the ISU152 stick a big arse howitzer in it and drop tons of ordnance on the enemy and in my opinion this suits the guard nicely.

In this line of logic the Vanquisher, actually being armed with a gun and not a howitzer or mortar either has a much smaller gun(which would make sense why it does not have a HE option), or advanced recoil systems. But that is kind of irrelevant becasue it's trash unfortunately.

Just like the Cadian's rifles, they are very big. Or the guard heavy weapons, 2 people seriously can''t carry something that big around.

It has AP & HE shells, as per IA1 which had some "entertaining" rules for filling a Leman Russ's ammunition stocks. I think it's like a regular Sherman to a Firefly. It fights most tanks well enough, and it has a adequate HE shell. It does have "long range" under the game's pretty serious range compression.

The Vanquisher is a Firefly, with a very powerful specialized AT gun, and the Demolisher would be the 105mm support howitzer

In my humble opinion the Russ is a piece of junk, they also suggested the best russes have a performance similar to the M1A2 Abrams, which is entertaining given the model.

I don't think the russ is a sherman, firefly or cromwell, if was meant to be a decent tank it'd look like one, the only thing we have to go off is the model and well, it speaks for itself.

It's a piece of junk in a universe where the closest competitors are either woefully unarmoured skimmers, riveted together tractor tanks or an APC with a fire-support turret placed on it.

So really it's actually pretty good relatively speaking.

It's main gun does not appear to be a gun, and for such a small turret it does not make sense, besides looking at the forgeworld models the battle cannon is very clearly a howitzer. Not only that but it would be much better off being a howitzer than a gun, because a gun would offer no advantages.

Velocity don't matter to fire HEAT and that is equally good for killing enemy armour and infantry, so you'd only need one ammo type. And you don't have storage capacity for a wide range of ammo, or a lot of ammo with the russ model. Especially if you have like 3 hull heavy bolters that need feeding.

The Vanquisher is the gun variant. Presumably rarer becasue howitzer works so well against most targets.

As a tanker, I try not to think about the interior layout of the Leman Russ. I am assuming that the model designers also did not think about the interior layout of the Leman Russ. Aesthetically, though, its a beautifully ugly tank and its about as iconic an item as we can get for the IG/AM. I embrace change as long as everything I am familiar with stays exactly the same so don't go messing with my Russes.

Speaking of which, which Regiment could they make into the next plastic box? The Cadians are familiar/iconic, and can be painted in a variety of schemes to represent Tallarans, Mordians or Catachans. On the other hand, why would they invest money into redoing a kit that is....OK? Sure the kit is old enough to drive and its about as exciting as a bowl of sand, but its functional.

A Catachan kit could be nice, since the 1999 one is just bad. My metal Catachans try to keep their distance on the tabletop from those plastic fellows. On the negative side it would also be much less flexible than the Cadians - Catachans are Catachans no matter how you paint them. Tallarans and Mordians are cool but very niche, even for the 40K hipsters. Valhallans are an option, I suppose. But you can make them with pretty much any WW2 Soviet kit - very hard to defend against the IP boarding 3rd-parties.

Which maybe leaves us with Steel Legion? No faces to mess up. Great coats to make the great coat brigade happy. Iconic, and with a WW1 aesthetic that the WW2 kits can't just substitute for. Done! Sign me up for the CAD course.

So I guess we'll just keep our Cadian kit.

With respect to the Russ, I think what has amused me most was the actual cutaway diagrams that have been done by GW and FW, showing the main gun breach to essentially fill the entire space of the turret below the hatch, making it impossible to actually enter, exit, or stand in the hatch

The Russ is a wonderful steampunky retro vehicle that really fit the game's more cartoony and old-school-D&D-esque vibe from older editions, though as GW's aesthetic changes over time, it's becoming increasingly out of place next to other product lines I think (especially with the removal of the accessory sprue and stuff like track guards). While stuff like the Eldar Falcon has kinda proven immune to the ravages of time and worked well unchanged since 2E, the Russ just hasn't aged as well, especially next to things like the the newer Space Marine and AdMech releases. I think the Mortian battle tank (done by a former FW sculptor who did the Macharius) is a far better design for the current edition while maintaining the same vibe.

Kayback wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Nothing that looks "modern" or "World War II". No stetsons. No pith helmets.That trash is for Infinity and their nonsensical tropes, not for 40k.

What does that leave you with?...

Solar Auxilia. Baroque diving-helmet spacesuits.


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 Vaktathi wrote:
...The Russ is a wonderful steampunky retro vehicle that really fit the game's more cartoony and old-school-D&D-esque vibe from older editions...

It is? It just looks like a bizarrely-tall Sherman expy to me...

 Vaktathi wrote:
With respect to the Russ, I think what has amused me most was the actual cutaway diagrams that have been done by GW and FW, showing the main gun breach to essentially fill the entire space of the turret below the hatch, making it impossible to actually enter, exit, or stand in the hatch

The Russ is a wonderful steampunky retro vehicle that really fit the game's more cartoony and old-school-D&D-esque vibe from older editions, though as GW's aesthetic changes over time, it's becoming increasingly out of place next to other product lines I think (especially with the removal of the accessory sprue and stuff like track guards). While stuff like the Eldar Falcon has kinda proven immune to the ravages of time and worked well unchanged since 2E, the Russ just hasn't aged as well, especially next to things like the the newer Space Marine and AdMech releases. I think the Mortian battle tank (done by a former FW sculptor who did the Macharius) is a far better design for the current edition while maintaining the same vibe.

Sorry, have to disagree with you on the comparison of the Russ to the new primaris tanks. That's like comparing a classic car to its modern namesake, one has its own kind of style, the other looks like it was designed by a focus group of marketing execs. Probably from Hasbro.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
With respect to the Russ, I think what has amused me most was the actual cutaway diagrams that have been done by GW and FW, showing the main gun breach to essentially fill the entire space of the turret below the hatch, making it impossible to actually enter, exit, or stand in the hatch

The Russ is a wonderful steampunky retro vehicle that really fit the game's more cartoony and old-school-D&D-esque vibe from older editions, though as GW's aesthetic changes over time, it's becoming increasingly out of place next to other product lines I think (especially with the removal of the accessory sprue and stuff like track guards). While stuff like the Eldar Falcon has kinda proven immune to the ravages of time and worked well unchanged since 2E, the Russ just hasn't aged as well, especially next to things like the the newer Space Marine and AdMech releases. I think the Mortian battle tank (done by a former FW sculptor who did the Macharius) is a far better design for the current edition while maintaining the same vibe.

Sorry, have to disagree with you on the comparison of the Russ to the new primaris tanks. That's like comparing a classic car to its modern namesake, one has its own kind of style, the other looks like it was designed by a focus group of marketing execs. Probably from Hasbro.

Both can be true , though honestly the newer SM tanks remind me a lot of some old GI-Joe toys, and while I'm not a huge actual fan of the Primaris tank designs like the Repulsor, the newer stuff in general from almost all factions has a visual different vibe, there's a lot more gubbins, details a bit sharper, they tend to have more stuff like sensors/antennae/cameras, etc.

 AnomanderRake wrote:


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 Vaktathi wrote:
...The Russ is a wonderful steampunky retro vehicle that really fit the game's more cartoony and old-school-D&D-esque vibe from older editions...

It is? It just looks like a bizarrely-tall Sherman expy to me...

Mostly I was referring to the proportions, stuff like the ginormous gun caliber coupled to the tiny turret, complete lack of suspension, etc

 Vaktathi wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:
...The Russ is a wonderful steampunky retro vehicle that really fit the game's more cartoony and old-school-D&D-esque vibe from older editions...

It is? It just looks like a bizarrely-tall Sherman expy to me...

Mostly I was referring to the proportions, stuff like the ginormous gun caliber coupled to the tiny turret, complete lack of suspension, etc

I got a few Team Yankee models recently, and they have me really wishing I could have an in-scale Merkava or Leopard 2 as a Russ proxy without being accused of modeling for advantage because I have tanks of reasonable height...

 AnomanderRake wrote:


It is? It just looks like a bizarrely-tall Sherman expy to me...

It has very sherman-esque lines. The turret also has a bit of Panzer IV with the centered hatch behind the gun and the general more hex-shape, but it also looks like an M4/76 turret in general lines.

And of course, the way the engine and slope of the glacis are very sherman-esque, though the all-round tracks are evocative of earlier tanks.

I generally think of the Battle Cannon as like the 75mm gun. Good HE, pretty okay AP too against most threats, but not so great against the big stuff.



Maybe I'd like to see an IG M10/M36/Achilles. That would be pretty neat. Or a Archer on the Chimera chassis would be pretty cool.

steel legion would be nice in plastics. Or a WW1-2 British themed army. But 3rd party sorta has that market covered so maybe they could attempt to re-birth some of their old ideas.

I'd fully support a re-release of the leman russ as the Indiana Jones tank it always wanted to be. Squish it down slightly, so it looks a bit sportier next to a Malcador, add a longer rear section.
Boxy 2-3 man turret.

Or give it a more churchill shaped hull.
It's not my idea of a great tank, but it'd look great for most guard units.


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Catachans and Elysians really want a space Centurion though.

I think a generic kit with some add-on sprues for regiments may be the best way forward.

So a lightweight flak vest, with tunic arms and normal combat boots, and a small helmet. Generic enough that it could go to more or less any regiment in light dress.

Then put out a few sprues of add-ons. So things like bare arms and bandana'd heads for Catachans, greatcoats and stick on masks for steel legion (taking inspo from the coat in the Scion kit), different helmets, etc.

 OldMate wrote:
steel legion would be nice in plastics. Or a WW1-2 British themed army. But 3rd party sorta has that market covered so maybe they could attempt to re-birth some of their old ideas.

as the Indiana Jones tank it always wanted to be.

??

As an aside to all this, here’s someone who built a full interior for his Russ, and the only modification needed was a thin plasticard spacer between the upper and lower hull pieces: https://m.imgur.com/a/LQpS3FK

You don't think the russ was primarily inspired by this?

And it' wouldn't look bad. Just move the drive's position and put a gun in the front hull.

 DalekCheese wrote:

As cool as that is the only reason it works is the super sub caliber main gun, especially down from the Demolisher cannon. And holy unsafe ammo storage. That's asking for a brew up.

Also what's wrong with plastic steel legion or a similar british/american themed faction? They already have ww2 germans and russians so you might as well complete the collection


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Maybe a Chimera based assault gun, like a stug, cheap as and packs a cannon, or battlefield artilley such as towed battle cannon, or vanquisers. and towed flack arrays.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
As a tanker, I try not to think about the interior layout of the Leman Russ.

An important note here is that the Leman Russ is controlled by a neural bridge interface, called the Mind Impulse Unit in-setting. So IRL crew experiences cannot really apply because, well, you don't have that thing in modern tanks, and it is a kind of game-changer if you think about it.

 OldMate wrote:
You don't think the russ was primarily inspired by this?

Spoiler:

And it' wouldn't look bad. Just move the drive's position and put a gun in the front hull.

This kit is actually 28mm if anyone is interested http://www.copplestonecastings.co.uk/

Oh, fair enough. I hadn’t connected the two. Yeah, I can see that.

that nicely done out Leman Russ with the interior does look way better than the standard one, I suspect though the bulk of the improvement externally is the longer, but narrower gun barrel that removes the ARVE look and makes it look like an actual long barrel tank gun - extended bustle is nice but more 'modern' in outlook.

just dropping the width of the gun barrels makes them look a lot better

Copplestone vehicle It's OPP :(


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leopard wrote:
that nicely done out Leman Russ with the interior does look way better than the standard one, I suspect though the bulk of the improvement externally is the longer, but narrower gun barrel that removes the ARVE look and makes it look like an actual long barrel tank gun - extended bustle is nice but more 'modern' in outlook.

just dropping the width of the gun barrels makes them look a lot better

I'd have to agree, LARP barrels don't look too nice, if the main gun was a bit smaller it'd make a hell of a difference

 OldMate wrote:
Also what's wrong with plastic steel legion or a similar british/american themed faction? They already have ww2 germans and russians so you might as well complete the collection


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Maybe a Chimera based assault gun, like a stug, cheap as and packs a cannon, or battlefield artilley such as towed battle cannon, or vanquisers. and towed flack arrays.

Mostly because the towed array take too long to set up. The G5 L45 towed artillery has a 90 second into /out of action time. A minute and a half is a long time in game terms. At least one turn setting up. Self propelled G6 L45 is sub 60 seconds. With complaints about games being over by turn 2 they wouldn't have much use.

Edit fixed turn complaint number

As cheap guns to bring on the field, I guess this would make campers a real pain, although, I can see the guard quite typically camping with a big line of guns, towed and otherwise

 OldMate wrote:


As cheap guns to bring on the field, I guess this would make campers a real pain, although, I can see the guard quite typically camping with a big line of guns, towed and otherwise

pdf seem more campy then regular guard.

 AtoMaki wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
As a tanker, I try not to think about the interior layout of the Leman Russ.

An important note here is that the Leman Russ is controlled by a neural bridge interface, called the Mind Impulse Unit in-setting. So IRL crew experiences cannot really apply because, well, you don't have that thing in modern tanks, and it is a kind of game-changer if you think about it.

What Black Library books are you reading? The MIU is an Admech thing. Guard vehicles control just like modern ones. Even marine tanks don't have MIUs.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 OldMate wrote:


As cheap guns to bring on the field, I guess this would make campers a real pain, although, I can see the guard quite typically camping with a big line of guns, towed and otherwise

pdf seem more campy then regular guard.

I read this and immediately thought of Carry On Sergeant! That would be an interesting source of inspiration for IG!

 OldMate wrote:
Also what's wrong with plastic steel legion or a similar british/american themed faction? They already have ww2 germans and russians so you might as well complete the collection


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Maybe a Chimera based assault gun, like a stug, cheap as and packs a cannon, or battlefield artilley such as towed battle cannon, or vanquisers. and towed flack arrays.

You mean a thunderer ?

Thunderer-lite, think cheaper and weaker than a russ chassis -Oh yeah that's already a thing, think vindicator?

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
As a tanker, I try not to think about the interior layout of the Leman Russ.

An important note here is that the Leman Russ is controlled by a neural bridge interface, called the Mind Impulse Unit in-setting. So IRL crew experiences cannot really apply because, well, you don't have that thing in modern tanks, and it is a kind of game-changer if you think about it.

What Black Library books are you reading? The MIU is an Admech thing. Guard vehicles control just like modern ones. Even marine tanks don't have MIUs.

IG crews have MIUs since forever. The old tank crew models even had the jacks to show it. The RPG books were on-point with it as all Imperial Guard vehicle operators started with a MIU. Astartes tanks have advanced MIUs too that connect to the Black Carapace.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
As a tanker, I try not to think about the interior layout of the Leman Russ.

An important note here is that the Leman Russ is controlled by a neural bridge interface, called the Mind Impulse Unit in-setting. So IRL crew experiences cannot really apply because, well, you don't have that thing in modern tanks, and it is a kind of game-changer if you think about it.

What Black Library books are you reading? The MIU is an Admech thing. Guard vehicles control just like modern ones. Even marine tanks don't have MIUs.

IG crews have MIUs since forever. The old tank crew models even had the jacks to show it. The RPG books were on-point with it as all Imperial Guard vehicle operators started with a MIU. Astartes tanks have advanced MIUs too that connect to the Black Carapace.

My mistake then. Maybe gw should inform their authors on this.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
As a tanker, I try not to think about the interior layout of the Leman Russ.

An important note here is that the Leman Russ is controlled by a neural bridge interface, called the Mind Impulse Unit in-setting. So IRL crew experiences cannot really apply because, well, you don't have that thing in modern tanks, and it is a kind of game-changer if you think about it.

What Black Library books are you reading? The MIU is an Admech thing. Guard vehicles control just like modern ones. Even marine tanks don't have MIUs.

IG crews have MIUs since forever. The old tank crew models even had the jacks to show it. The RPG books were on-point with it as all Imperial Guard vehicle operators started with a MIU. Astartes tanks have advanced MIUs too that connect to the Black Carapace.

Maybe gw should inform their authors on this.

If we are at it they should tell them that Lightning fighters are not used in space combat, Space Marines don't use multi-lasers, etc.

 ScarletRose wrote:

We need something new, and modern - so how about IG players now have to mail-order their entire army?

Maybe they can use a printed catalog and paper order forms too?

Like I get we're wishlisting here, but really the trend of GW is exactly opposite of this - going for impulse buys of detailed but monopose miniatures.

Sarcasm aside, but it sounds like you've missed the entirety of the development of online shopping.

Yes, the trend for GW is against that but so far the overwhelming request in this thread has been for conversion or adaptability. Revamping *would* include different approaches otherwise it would not be a revamp but a release of a new faction. I'm sure for not much cost (besides the whole new molds) they could include a couple of extra heads or something but with the vast array requested (multi legs, multi torsos, multi heads) they would need to sky rocket the cost of a box set.

You know what else gets bought piecemeal like Bit A from this line, Bit B from that line, Bit C from a different line altogether? Basically every hobby ever outside of puzzles. Even Lego sells bits sets and has an online bits and a mail in bits service.

Personally I'd be happy with accessory sprues to just allow customization of the current box sets.

 Dysartes wrote:

How much of that is the Big Fur Hat?

Surprisingly little. I mean sure some is but the guy is HUGE.

I don't have a Primaris and my completed Marines are all in storage so this partial Assault guy from admittedly a long time ago will have to do. Fortunately they are my Grenadiers so they will do.

Lego's kind of a special case. If you ever watch anything surrounding their production methods? They're far more organized than people could even imagine. The parts are produced by color and specific bricks and organized accordingly.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Lego's kind of a special case. If you ever watch anything surrounding their production methods? They're far more organized than people could even imagine. The parts are produced by color and specific bricks and organized accordingly.

No I get that and I understand you've got to be a pretty damn good and established designer before they will allow you to introduce a new piece specific to your set. I was just using it an example of a modern, molded plastic producing company that does offer box sets as well as both online and the snarkily dismissed mail in ordering. IIRC Lego is the world's largest tyre manufacturer.

So far the ideas given have been "all the models in one box" which will be too expensive, "my specific faction" and lets rewrite the rules or redesign the business model of GW. We're probably not going to come to an agreement.

At this point there is a few things that must be accepted to answer the question of "If we get a new Guard codex and kits to accompany it?":

-Any kit will feature all of the options that the unit has. These will be both new and old.
-The kit will most likely lose some current options in favor of new ones, strictly for driving sales.
-The kit will be more expensive than the current ones, which were famously some of the cheapest units in the game both points and $-wise.

That last part is important to remember that there was a factor in play when the Cadian box dropped:
Cadian boxes included 10 riflemen, 0 Heavy Weapons, arms for a Sergeant to have a Chainsword+Laspistol, a Flamer, and a Grenade Launcher.
If you wanted any Heavy Weapon Teams? When the initial Cadian release happened, they also sold $10 Heavy Weapon Team kits that went along with your $25-$30 box of 20 Cadian Shock Troops.
If you wanted Plasma Guns or Melta Guns? They came in a $9 blister of 1 of each.
If you wanted a Sniper Rifle? $9 blister of each Cadian Sniper pose.

The Heavy Weapon Squad box was a better deal($25 for 3 or so) than buying them individually...but the Team kits weren't bad for people who just were putting stuff into squads.


It's important to note as well that the 'snarkily dismissed mail-in ordering' ignored that if it was to be done? GW would not reasonably be able to make it available to independent shops. So why would they do this if it's just going to be a huge hassle to them in terms of PR and logistics?

If they made the guard heavy weapons a bit more scaled down I'd be happy. As it is they're lugging the biggest lascannon and Hbolter models available.