If you watch the video you'll also see some new Cygnar models, including a Heavy Warjack and what looks like a Storm Lance Chariot and heavy infantry. The (subfaction??) is called Storm Legion. The impression is that the Orgoth are a "Reaver" subfaction.
Not my style at all, but a really cool faction. A bit like Skorne, but with more of a barbarian style than the Asian leanings. The jacks are really cool and stand out to what we've seen in the past. Really looking forward to seeing how they play.
That's really the best they could do? The Orgoth, a real, nasty, evil Faction, diluted into these try-hards that look like a bastard child of other, existing factions? Such a let-down and a wasted opportunity.
Honestly they turned out much better then I expected. It's hard to take something that's never really had much art or descriptions (outside of a few places in RPG books) and compete with the head-cannon everyone makes. The mix of Scorn and Cryx is a good description and I think fits will for what would have happened with at least some faction of Orgoth. They got their butts handed to them via magic and jacks and it's been common speculation that Orgoth would adapt by leaning into what beat them and develop their own form of warjack and possibly even more advanced in what's used by the Iron Kindgoms.
Since all the fluff seams to be going into the new RPG books I'm sure we'll have a KS over the summer for those.
Personally, I think they did a version of "Orgoth, 400 years later" that works quite well. The paint job is really well done, but I think I would have liked it better with a more traditional choice of techniques.
This kind of army aesthetic has never been for me, but I know a lot of people are excited about them.
They're missing the baroque faces on armour that really scream 'Orgoth', especially moticible on the 'Jack's. The models wouldn't look out of place next to the bad'90's Gary Morley Chaos Warriors from GW. They're just not as menacing as they should be. These are the mythical Big Bad of the Warmahordes world, and they're nowhere near as menacing or unique as the Infernal, or even the Grymkin.
They just feel phoned in.
Apparently these guys are supposed to be a "Sea Reaver" type subfaction, like an advanced amphibious scouting force kind of thing, with rumors of more Orgoth to come, so maybe the aesthetic aspects that some of you feel like missing will make an appearance later.
Makes sense, Cygnar trenchers look nothing like stormknightblade guys, if not for the paint scheme I wouldn't even know they were part of the same army. Likewise Doom Reavers, Man O Wars and Winter Guard look nothing alike, yet all belong to Khador.
chaos0xomega wrote: Apparently these guys are supposed to be a "Sea Reaver" type subfaction, like an advanced amphibious scouting force kind of thing, with rumors of more Orgoth to come, so maybe the aesthetic aspects that some of you feel like missing will make an appearance later.
Makes sense, Cygnar trenchers look nothing like stormknightblade guys, if not for the paint scheme I wouldn't even know they were part of the same army. Likewise Doom Reavers, Man O Wars and Winter Guard look nothing alike, yet all belong to Khador.
That would be cool if it were true. I do want to do an Orgoth force, but I'll need to see the rest of the range before I decide to take the plunge.
I think the heavy NMM makes the metal a little bright and overpowering. The rust in the artwork I think fits the look of the models better. On the models it kind of overwhelms the look of things, but in the close ups the styling of the armor with the fur and spikes captures the barbarian/viking vibe better than I first thought. There's also some nice "faces" on the armor, though not quite as much as I'd expect from things like Doom Reavers and Ruin.
Sunno wrote: Its been confirmed that its going to be a kickstarter. So chances of it landing in UK stores is pretty low
Why? Our LGS in non-EU Norway did a retailer backer kit of Warcaster Wave 1,2 and 3 and more or less treated it as a long pre-order. With the retailer discount he basically gets free stuff to sell as regular stock.
grahamdbailey wrote: They're missing the baroque faces on armour that really scream 'Orgoth', especially moticible on the 'Jack's. The models wouldn't look out of place next to the bad'90's Gary Morley Chaos Warriors from GW. They're just not as menacing as they should be. These are the mythical Big Bad of the Warmahordes world, and they're nowhere near as menacing or unique as the Infernal, or even the Grymkin.
They just feel phoned in.
Yeah, they're... straight out of World of Warcraft. Down to the weirdly impractical art deco sword designs and shiny armor sets, I'm pretty sure I have some of those weapons and armor pieces in my transmog library. And the light jack looks like a mini- Fel Reaver.
Old art had a lot of Orgoth stuff, and this ain't it.
I'm out of touch, I know, but why is the 'heavy warjack' obviously a warbeast?
Personally, I think they did a version of "Orgoth, 400 years later" that works quite well.
Honestly I was under the impression they would never do them. They were consigned to history on another continent. And probably for the best if they had stayed.
Apparently these guys are supposed to be a "Sea Reaver" type subfaction,
Sigh. At both subfactions and 'Sea Reavers' (and a model labelled 'skirmisher') in full plate.
Well, this isn't going to bring me back. Is this going to be a 4th edition thing, or are they still fumbling along with Mark 3?
Right I was about to post something on news and rumours since I just found out about the new faction on another site.
Then I vaguely remember the sub forums on Dakka and here it is.
I think keeping news hidden here will not do any favours to what looks to be a very famous company and game that well... its not anymore.
This faction has some really nice sculpts on some of the units... but in general I dont see anything that would make me go out of my way and spark my interest again.
I'm out of touch, I know, but why is the 'heavy warjack' obviously a warbeast?
Personally, I think they did a version of "Orgoth, 400 years later" that works quite well.
Honestly I was under the impression they would never do them. They were consigned to history on another continent. And probably for the best if they had stayed.
The Titan thing (Siege Tarask) isn't a battlegroup model. It's listed on their site as a solo, likely akin to a Battle Engine and from the looks of things its on an 80 mm base.
As for why they're doing them? Honestly they kind of explored all there is to explore with Western Immoran. The Khador/Cygnar conflict has fully run its course and can only be retread at this point. The mysteries of gods and magic have largely been laid bare as well and they've even to a degree been to space. The story really needs to expand to the wider world and having a prior outside force show up to open things to the wider world is a good way to start. Giving them hundreds of years of technological development is interesting and certainly a bit more realistic than having literal Viking longboats storming the shores of Normandy in WWII.
I think if they ran a kickstarter for plastic resculpts of iconic main faction units, of good quality, they could have really drummed up interest. So many people out there with nostalgia and a desire to like WMH, plus crossover potential for the RPG. I don't think a new faction is really going to drive interest like it used to when the playerbase has gotten so small.
Models look cool, though they seem to lack much of an identity to me. But it is really hard to see past the NMM everywhere. Seriously, when I need a poster boy for how to NOT use NMM this will be it.
I'm out of touch, I know, but why is the 'heavy warjack' obviously a warbeast?
Personally, I think they did a version of "Orgoth, 400 years later" that works quite well.
Honestly I was under the impression they would never do them. They were consigned to history on another continent. And probably for the best if they had stayed.
The Titan thing (Siege Tarask) isn't a battlegroup model. It's listed on their site as a solo, likely akin to a Battle Engine and from the looks of things its on an 80 mm base.
Ah. I was skimming and read the names under the photographs as captions, like a sane person.
As for why they're doing them? Honestly they kind of explored all there is to explore with Western Immoran. The Khador/Cygnar conflict has fully run its course and can only be retread at this point.
That's kind of sad. A decade or two is all it takes to exhaust all the possibilities of the default setting? Even with all the wide ranging additions from distant lands, like Skorne and Everblight and elves?
The mysteries of gods and magic have largely been laid bare as well and they've even to a degree been to space. The story really needs to expand to the wider world and having a prior outside force show up to open things to the wider world is a good way to start.
Uh... no. That's a terrible place to start. We've explored the mysteries of gods and magic! We've gone to space! Now... some hooligan colonialists are coming by to be problematic at us. That's... quaint.
Giving them hundreds of years of technological development is interesting and certainly a bit more realistic than having literal Viking longboats storming the shores of Normandy in WWII.
Given they were the impetus for Immorean's development (and magic), I'm not sure I agree. No idea what viking longboats and ww2 have to do with anything. The ancient Orgoth were masters of soul magic and technology that no one in the Iron Kingdoms ever understood. (barring 3rd edition developments). They aren't using 'literal Viking longboats'
The Orgoth showed up in longships the last time they invaded. It is pretty clear from the art and descriptions. Low freeboard ships powered by "inhumanly strong rowers" and basic square rigs that were filled by magical wind. The impression has always been that their strength came from their Infernal pacts and their magic and reinforced by their brutality once they had established control. Their technology seems to have been inferior to that of the Iron Kingdom even in the Thousand Cities era. Their architecture was quite simple as well. As it is now, Cryx has held a lot of the old magical secrets of the Orgoth since the fall of Drer Drakkerung, including War Witch training and the presumeably magical nature of Blackship construction as Cryx Blackships look nothing like Orgoth ones. The study of Orgoth magic in Khador is mostly archaeological, most of their artifacts we have seen in the RPGs and WMH itself aren't much more powerful than existing ones, with a few rare examples like the Witchfire. At the present time, Western Immoren is not really comparable to earth is terms of technology due to mechanika making a lot of things different. It is both considerably more advanced than things we have today and less advanced than World War 2 technological levels.
The Orgoth were the impetus for Thamar begging the Nonokrion Order for the Gift of Magic. It was the Immorenese lack of arcane magic that led to their fall to the Orgoth invasion, as their divine magic was unable to compete with the Infernal gifts of the Orgoth and that the Orgoth aggressively suppressed the priesthoods even further. Technological development was greatly slowed (often aggressively) by the Orgoth domination, and in the end developed in secret alongside Mechanika. It was the fusing of magic and technology that led to the fall of the Orgoth alongside the Rip Lung plague that the Circle targeted the Orgoth directly with (Immorenese casaulties were mostly a side effect of it - the intention was always to weaken the Orgoth both in Immoren and their homeland).
I don't agree that Immoren has been exhausted of possibilites. There are still a great deal of unexplained things in the setting. What was revealed during Mk2-3 was the true nature of Cyrissist worship, the origin of the gift of magic, the fall of the last elven gods an the reveal on how the Gift of Magic related to the fall of the pantheon and a new flareup in the Dragon Wars that ended with another stalemate, but with Toruk in a weakened position due to Blighterghast wolfing down the Champion Athanc. Politically, the human kingdoms seem to have stabilized somewhat. We still don't know a great many things of the regions already explored, and there are vast areas to the south, east and north that have barely been touched on. Durant's pilgrimage, the southern Trollkin settlements, the uncertain future of the elven species, how the main strength of the Skorne Empire will respond, whatever Everblight is up to after the battle of Henge Hold...there is a lot to go on. My hope was always that the Orgoth Invasion was not going to be an invasion of Immoren, but either the Iron Kingdoms setting out across the Meredius or the IK nations and Orgoth meeting somewhere else, like Zu, where the Orgoth previously had a presence. Instead they went with the Orgoth returning to Western Immoren, which is a more vanilla Ancient Enemy Showing Up solution than I would have done. The IKRPG adventure book reveals about Fellgoeth agents in Immoren gunning for Nonokrion assets makes it look like the Orgoth return is a direct result of the Nonokrion Order's failure to complete the Claiming and the relative weakening of that Order's position in the greater Infernal hierachy.
I guess I could have posted this in the News and Rumours parts of the site, but I hardly pay attention to it myself. Anyone is of course free to do so.
Just to clarify, the setting is only exhausted in terms of nations going to war with one another. People felt the setting was stuck on Khador vs Cygnar at the start of MK2 and recent events have been more about leaving every army too weak to continue rather than building up tensions between them. It's an opportunity to turn outward and Orgoth are a natural instigating force for that kind of expansion.
In terms of a setting for smaller scale storytelling its always been incredibly rich. The Iron Kingdoms is my favorite RPG setting, with that nice mix of magic and tech, ancient and recent history to tell a huge variety of stories. That doesn't drive the army scale game though and after a storyline involving everyone needing to work together to stop the literal apocalypse, trying to follow up with nations fighting over land would come across as incredibly forced.
Yeah, the fourth Cygnar-Khadoran war in two decades would probably have made that cup run over. Especially after they just powered through an extraplanar invasion together and Khador is expreccedly stated to be in a weakened state
Yeah the more I look at them, the more I realise this isn't a release that will get me back into the game.
The ott warcraft aesthetics on the armour coupled with the fur and the lack of trousers just doesn't work for me. Can't say I like the 'bug eye/sperm cell' look of the helmets/crests either.
I've not seen any pp sculpts since the totem.huntress and trencher long gunners I've really liked.
TBH it feels like the Orgoth have generated substantially less buzz and hype than previous new factions have. I've seen far less discussion or mention of them than I have factions in the past. Not sure if this is an indicator of the size of decline of the WMHDs community or if its just that the community is indifferent to the product (or both).
chaos0xomega wrote: TBH it feels like the Orgoth have generated substantially less buzz and hype than previous new factions have. I've seen far less discussion or mention of them than I have factions in the past. Not sure if this is an indicator of the size of decline of the WMHDs community or if its just that the community is indifferent to the product (or both).
I'd guess a little of column 'a', a little of column 'b'.
Just a disappointing addition, and very underwhelming considering how awesome these could have been.
Way too on the nose with the World of Warcraft aesthetic.
I’d say their community has shrunk drastically. The MonPoc board game KS didn’t even break 7k backers. There used to be triple that number of are players on their forums alone during MK2.
So I’d say that the indications are that their communities have slimmed down considerably. I’m curious to see how the Riot Quest board game KS goes.
I am underwhelmed. I have not played the rpg or even seen the few pics of Orgoth so did not have any real expectations. But, this is just not doing it.
The Fortnight aesthetic that Riot Quest is trying was bad enough, but this is even more jarring. And the NNM was the worst choice possible for showcase models. I honestly can't tell where some models stop and others begin.
I think I've mentioned it before, but I think PP/WMHDs is a game that was running up to the limits of its design space. I think mechanically, and maybe even thematically, there wasn't a lot of room for them to keep adding things to established factions without stepping on the toes of things that were already there. I think this was a big reason for the push towards theme forces, as it opened the door for them to introduce what was essentially duplication into a given faction (for example, Trencher Long Gunners vs Long Gunner Infantry) without really creating redundancy because they were treating "themes" as factions rather than the factions themselves. While that might work from a game design perspective I don't think its something that sits well with consumers and doesn't necessarily generate more sales, etc.
Likewise, they seemed to regular push a new limited faction, but that only gets you so far. From experience most players of these games are going to dedicate themselves to 1-2 factions instead of going to buy into every new thing that comes across. Its basically the DLC/expansion effect thats common to the video and board gaming industry. You might sell a million copies of the base game, but DLC and expansions will usually only sell something like 10% of that volume. If you consider the "core factions" as being the "base game", and the limited factions (Cephalyx, Infernals, Crucible Guard, Orgoth, etc.) as expansions, then you can see how PP might be mis-prioritizing its resources, but the only solid explanation for why they are doing that is because they don't have a ton of design space left to do interesting stuff within the existing factions, and therefore they are trying to open more design space by creating new factions instead of growing the existing ones further.
I think a big mistake and a potential reason for the IPs overall stagnation was that while they grew out WMHDs depth wise, they haven't done much to grow it breadth wise. They have kept the playerbase and community focused on engaging with their game and setting in a very narrow and limited sense, i.e. their flagship miniatures games. While they have dabbled with things like those really crappy boxed board games they did in the past and riot quest, these were really just sideshows to the tabletop game proper. The only serious effort they have made to an adjacent game system in the same IP has been IKRPG, but even that was generally very limited in terms of the effort they put into it, it wasn't until the latest 5e based re-release that they seem dedicated to making a serious effort to continuously support it long term with content. Contrast this to GW and 40k - the flagship is 40k proper, of course, but GW gives the community plenty of other ways to interact with the setting on tabletop: Aeronautica Imperialis, Necromunda, Adeptus Titanicus, etc. I think PP made a mistake in not trying to expand into other areas, I think a naval combat type game in the setting could have done pretty well (and filled a much desired fantasy naval niche that GW vacated years ago when they axed Man O War), likewise a smaller scale mass-battle miniatures game might have been an interesting opportunity to expand out the lore and setting with some of the larger weapons of war that have been mentioned in the background but never really given much detail. Likewise a more focused game based on the core WMHDs system set in the war against the Orgoth occupation could have been interesting as a Horus Heresy type game.
But thats just my 2 cents, I think eventually people get burned out and tired of these games. In the 40k ecosystem if you get sick of playing 40k a lot of people jump into a dalliance with Kill Team or Necromunda, some jump to Horus Heresy, others to Titanicus/Aeronautica, etc. It allows you to capture dollars from your consumers and keep them focused on your product while they recharge and recover from burnout before jumping back into the core game. WMHDs doesn't really have much like that to keep people interesting. When I got tired of playing 3-4 games of WMHDs/week, I just stopped playing WMHDs and rotated to a different game from a different manufacturer that allowed me to recover from my burnout and have a different experience - at that point PP basically lost my attention and the regular weekly/monthly purchases that I made with them. While at the time I told myself it would just be temporary and I'd get back to WMHDs, the truth is its been about 5 years (basically slightly longer than mk3 has been around) since I've touched the game or had desire to purchase anything for it, let alone play. Them losing my attention cost them, because as anyone who knows anything about marketing and sales will tell you, its easier to sell something to repeat customers and people whos attention you have as a brand than it is new customers and people whos attention you don't have. By losing me, PP basically has to pay the cost of new customer acquisition to re-acquire me, whereas if they had held my attention with a different product (and I don't mean MonPoc - it looks cool but its a different game and IP and one which doesn't automatically appeal to people heavily invested into the WMHDs IP) they would already have me as an existing customer and would be more readily able to convince me to make purchases than they would be otherwise.
I know its difficult for smaller companies in this industry to maintain and support multiple parallel game/product lines like this (it is part of what did in Spartan Games, after all, but that is an extreme example of what this looks like), but I get massive red flags in terms of longevity from any established or semi-established miniatures game publisher that only really has a single supported game line. The burnout and/or community exodus will eventually come for one reason or another, and if that exodus and burnout results in that player base migrating to a competitors product they have a very high mountain to climb in terms of re-attracting those lost customers - the game isn't necessarily dead per se but its unlikely for most publishers to recover from that and restore the game and its community to the same levels that it was in the past. GW was able to do that following the 6th/7th downturn in large part because its an industry giant with a lot of visibility and money to throw at the problem, but a company like PP is going to have to work harder to do the same.
The game and community just became overly rigid as the focus on the game became more and more about competitive perfection. Some of this I do find a fault of the rules, but a lot of it was just the complete unwillingness to play anything except two full 75 point armies in Steamroller scenarios. It meant new players had an impossible hurdle to get in and old players stumbled as soon as they got old enough for work or family to get in the way. I know a lot of people that had their first kid and just at that moment found a change in the game so impossible to deal with they couldn't keep playing.
To a degree.... I totally get it. Robust scenarios were largely regulated to niche skirmish games and army games were about the deathmatch which Warmachine does overall well, but with some big issues without Steamroller. Steamroller is fantastic, but really does not scale well. It's VERY easy to have a bad experience trying to change the parameters of that 75 point 2 army Steamroller railing, which is a big fault of PP but certainly something the community amplified.
It's a big reason why Brawlmachine is just so important to the health of the game. It's a place for new players, sure, but its also a release valve for old players who just want to get in a quick game or two. I've had so much success both in getting new players and bringing back old with it and I hope its something PP really appreciates the importance of. At the very least, they were smart enough to bake it into the core of Warcaster's rules.
grahamdbailey wrote: They're missing the baroque faces on armour that really scream 'Orgoth', especially moticible on the 'Jack's ... They're just not as menacing as they should be. These are the mythical Big Bad of the Warmahordes world, and they're nowhere near as menacing or unique as the Infernal, or even the Grymkin.
Pretty much my initial feels. That and I get very strong Warcaster vibes from the release, maybe pointing to where their design team is at these days. I was a little surprised it wasn't somehow a dual release for the two games, but there's still time. The NMM paint job is absolutely part of that vibe.
Did I read right that this is headed to Kickstarter? Bleh. I want the Siege Tarask (for a Skorne conversion ) but I don't like PP's KS, nor do I want anything else from the release. Which is telling, as I've mined both the Infernal and Grymkin releases for multiple minis to use in conversions and other games.
EDIT: Tho I saw it mentioned that there's more coming for the faction beyond this first batch? So some hope of at least cool stuff, if not the faction design we'd hoped for.
EDIT2: Oh right, they talk about the flying cav in the video, and those lizard-birds do look nice. I guess most of all it's the 'jacks that are just straight outta Warcaster for me, and therefore forgettable.
Did I read right that this is headed to Kickstarter? Bleh. I want the Siege Tarask (for a Skorne conversion ) but I don't like PP's KS, nor do I want anything else from the release. Which is telling, as I've mined both the Infernal and Grymkin releases for multiple minis to use in conversions and other games.
The KSers are just a preorder/distribution system. Anything in them will be available at retail a month later and likely cheaper. They're really only worth it if you really want to be all in on what they're offering so don't sweat it. They'll be available after.
LunarSol wrote: The KSers are just a preorder/distribution system. Anything in them will be available at retail a month later and likely cheaper. They're really only worth it if you really want to be all in on what they're offering so don't sweat it. They'll be available after.
Sure, and I was trying to figure out how long after a KS ends did Warcaster stuff hit MiniatureMarket / wherever. Given the dearth of KS bennies, I guess it's best to just move on with life and wait it out.
LunarSol wrote: The KSers are just a preorder/distribution system. Anything in them will be available at retail a month later and likely cheaper. They're really only worth it if you really want to be all in on what they're offering so don't sweat it. They'll be available after.
Sure, and I was trying to figure out how long after a KS ends did Warcaster stuff hit MiniatureMarket / wherever. Given the dearth of KS bennies, I guess it's best to just move on with life and wait it out.
Usually 6-8 months to reach backers, hitting general distribution a month or two later. Collision Course ended in early November 2020 and hit backers April 2021. I didn't back it and was able to pick up the stuff for it in the May and June release windows. Thousand Worlds ended late July 2021 and has hit a couple delays but is expected to reach backers this month I believe and was scheduled to be in stores this month and next prior to the omicron delays. Riot Quest has more or less followed a similar timeline.
LunarSol wrote: The KSers are just a preorder/distribution system. Anything in them will be available at retail a month later and likely cheaper. They're really only worth it if you really want to be all in on what they're offering so don't sweat it. They'll be available after.
Sure, and I was trying to figure out how long after a KS ends did Warcaster stuff hit MiniatureMarket / wherever. Given the dearth of KS bennies, I guess it's best to just move on with life and wait it out.
Our LGS did a retailer pledge for us, got the models about two weeks after they fulfilled in the US (which is very early for Europe after the regular distribution system decided to become difficult back in 2017-2018) and sold those in the store (basically our kind-of-preorders paid for the rest of the stock, so that went as pure profit). Then they did a reorder a few months later to stock up. So it depends a lot on how your local stores have handled the retailer pledge. I think Miniature Market did a retailer pledge (don't quote me on this) so that the models were available in the shop at about the same time KS backers got their.
The models etc look great IMO but PP has once again missed the boat with this.
Who, outside of the existing WM/H player base knows this is going on? Where's the marketing? Where's the coms messages? Where the engagement with the wargaming community to drive excitement and interest?
This is the first new faction for the game in ages and I have literally seen nothing apart from a few links on PPsFB page.
Sunno wrote: The models etc look great IMO but PP has once again missed the boat with this.
Who, outside of the existing WM/H player base knows this is going on? Where's the marketing? Where's the coms messages? Where the engagement with the wargaming community to drive excitement and interest?
This is the first new faction for the game in ages and I have literally seen nothing apart from a few links on PPsFB page.
Fully agree, In the old days when PP was popular they could rely on fans to spread the word but today theres not many people talking about it anymore.
Last awareness I had about PP was 3 years ago on Salute event when I have seen blisters and boxes dumped on discount bins in several stands.
Not exactly a good sign of a healthy game.
I've seen more chatter on other platforms, but a lot of people seem to be waiting for rules to be revealed and more fluff beyond the small amounts they've put on on PP site so far for the new orgoth
stonehorse wrote: It is painful to see how low PP have fallen. Used to really enjoy Warmachine and Hordes in Mark1 and 2 days.
They release a brand new faction to their game, one that is crucial to the games lore and setting... and it is received with a weak 'meh'.
Think the writing is on the wall for PP.
Iv come back to the game after a break due to covid and moving house. I have to say, the GAME right now is excellent. Its PP and their decisions and the effect it has on the community that is causing all the issues. Which makes me extra sad in a way.
PP just needs to do some basic things and the game would get back on track and grow rapidly again here in the UK. I remain v critical of PP right now but I still remain hopeful that they may turn it around one day soon. All it needs is 1 or 2 people empowered people in the company with vision and an understanding of what needs to get done. it wouldn't even need that much money. Just somebody who an write proper press releases and network with influencers would be gold for the company.
The prices are another killer. GW prices plus, for poorer quality metal and resin models. They really need to shift manufacturering to plastic, properly, and engage with distribution partners outside of the US.
Thats not going to happen, they are doing the opposite of that and trying to bring everything in-house in the US because when they were engaged with foreign manufacturing partners they got screwed and had their molds stolen.
chaos0xomega wrote: Thats not going to happen, they are doing the opposite of that and trying to bring everything in-house in the US because when they were engaged with foreign manufacturing partners they got screwed and had their molds stolen.
And that, of course, is completely their choice. But it does mean that they're effectively pricing themselves out of the market for the rest of the world, unfortunately.
chaos0xomega wrote: Thats not going to happen, they are doing the opposite of that and trying to bring everything in-house in the US because when they were engaged with foreign manufacturing partners they got screwed and had their molds stolen.
And that, of course, is completely their choice. But it does mean that they're effectively pricing themselves out of the market for the rest of the world, unfortunately.
To be fair this has been a thing for a while. their plastics and resins were ridiculous price wise anyway. Everblight chosen make gw appear reasonable. Even with a discount.
I haven't bought new PP models for years now. The prices are impossible to justify for me. It's been second hand models or alternative ones for me exclusively.
Cyel wrote: I haven't bought new PP models for years now. The prices are impossible to justify for me. It's been second hand models or alternative ones for me exclusively.
Fair. I would, very occasionally, for a solo or something though I prefer keeping an eye on the 2nd hand market for whatever I'm after.
That said the last time I really bought anything was lockdown 1 and I'm pretty sure apart from some trencher long gunners and the junior-sorscha solo (that I genuinely could not find otherwise)it was all 2nd hand.
The last purchase I made from PP was a few days ago for Trollbloods stuff to make Beer Pigs for my Norse Blood Bowl team... and oof, I forget how expensive they are.
My last purchase of PP stuff was also about a week ago, 3 models for $90+ from a discounter, which included the ugly AND expensive af blight archon. Because this game is about super solos and apparently I'm trying to play this game again
So yea, I don't disagree on the pricing, PP is really rough for the quality and number of sculpts you get. The Infernal Howlers are the ones that slapped me the hardest - $80 for 5 not all that impressive or large minis in only 3 sculpts? Blarf.
I do however really like PP's resin, more than their metal, although both are good. Honestly I trust it more than their plastic, as I was bit really hard by the mess that was their restic back when, which I know isn't a thing any more but hey, grudges and all that.
The small amount of HIPS stuff I got (resculpt of behemoth, rager and grolar) were excellent.
That said I have a soft spot for their metals. Always will.
Have 2 stripped squads of doomreavers and 2 squads of iron fangs I'm.gonna repaint. Also some old metal sisters repentia converted with doomblades because I wanted some female doomies. They count too, right? :p
The resins are excellent, just too expensive for 5 or 10 man units. That's the fundamental problem with the metals as well. Their models are great until you start talking about an army of them. This bleeds into the problems with a lack of good starter products and other issues making the game work at its current scale with the current state of the industry.
Voss wrote: Honestly I was under the impression they would never do them. They were consigned to history on another continent. And probably for the best if they had stayed.
They did say as much actually. Multiple times.
The minis and the aesthetics feel... very uninspired. If I were to see these guys in a void, "orgoth" would be at the deep bottom of what I'd say they were.
NH Gunsmith wrote: Didn't even notice the relative lack of pants until you mentioned it haha. Yeah, that does look a bit off.
I mean, I don't mind the lack of trousers per se. It has its merits. You can always go when you need to. You dont need to worry about soiling yourself. The breeze is probably nice.
I mean I don't mind it on my uruk hai orcs from lotr because at least they have a full skirt of chain mail with a loun rag under it, nearly full plate and either pikes or a big old shield and sword. And they're 'realistically' proportioned on top of that. The only nearly nekked guy is 'private parts', my uruk-hai berserker. (Note, need more zerberkers).
These guys, yeah with the cartoony armour and weapon aesthetics (and that's saying something for wmh!) they're falling quite a bit short on the venerable uruk-hai.
A battle engine that's made of 2 120mm bases, and you move it by taking the back base and putting it adjacent to the front base..... yyeeeeeeeesssssss!!!
I will say, i'm enjoying the background they've slowly been putting out for them
the idea that their casters are all working to afford their next soul recycle treatment and their warjacks being powered by the souls of angry honey badgers and the like
Maybe it's just my senses, but I actually have trouble distinguishing the model past the unreasonable amount of NMM. It's like I can see the pieces but my mind can't put them together. I would be very interested to see them with a sane paint job.
I find the models generally pretty disappointing, but I really like the background they've come up with. There's some great ideas in there. I like the idea that getting kicked out of Immoren and the riplung plague caused a lot of social upheval and the Warwitches took over, and the concept that all the high ranking Orgoth are essentially really old souls posessing the bodies of their descendants is proper grimdark. A whole faction of Joseph Curwens.
For those that didn't catch my Primecast update in the other thread, Matt Wilson confirmed no Kickstarter for Orgoth and that PP is aiming for a GenCon (Aug 4) release if they can figure out their production woes.
- So will Orgoth will be one of the four starting factions for Warmachine3?
It seems odd to have left out so many other factions.
Sea Raiders is one of the first two armies for MK4 that will be in the Orgoth faction, yes. The rest of the game will be getting armies based on legacy models at launch though. The "new armies" are just based on new releases. Assuming I'm right that House Kallyss is dual faction Cryx/Ret, those 4 cover most of the legacy factions with the notable exception of Menoth.
Factioms and Armies work different in Mk4. Players no longer play "Factions", they now play "Armies". "Cygnar" is a faction, but nobody will play Cygnar, instead they will play "Storm Legion". The Armies will be finite and limited, 2-3 Warcasters, 2-3 Warjacks, 5-6 units, and a handful of solos was the breakeown given by PP. The warcasters, warjacks, units, and solos for Storm Legion will generally only work for Storm Legion, if you also pick up Gravediggers there will generally be no crossover between the two, the exception being "cadres" which are basically in-faction mercs that can be used by multiple armies within a faction.
As for House Kallyss, they are an army for the Dusk faction. Ret no longer exists, nor does Ios really as all the Iosans bevame eldritch or soulless following the destruction of the Iosan gods.
In a way, it sounds kinda like they're following Infinity's Sectorials army, but without the option to take the "vanilla" faction. I could see that going either way, really; in Infinity I think it works ok because you get some benefits in Fireteam options to compensate for the more limited model selection, but still have the option of fewer Fireteam options and wider unit types selection. Either way, it sounds like it might be better than the current theme list mechanics.
I'll definitely give the rules a read-through when they come out. Probably won't jump back in, honestly, for a variety of reasons, but curious to see what they do.
Im unlikely to jump back in because I just had 80% of my current miniatures effectively rendered obsolete.
MK4 is really Warmachine 2 (or as others put it, Age of Sigmar with better PR). its mostly the same rules but its a different timeline, characters, story, miniatures, and factions, etc. The legacy minis are being given what basically amounts to "Legends" rules in 40k, you'll be able to play them casually but not in competitive play, which means you probably won't really be able to play them casually either since competitive play always dictates how the game gets played at the casual level.
chaos0xomega wrote: Im unlikely to jump back in because I just had 80% of my current miniatures effectively rendered obsolete.
MK4 is really Warmachine 2 (or as others put it, Age of Sigmar with better PR). its mostly the same rules but its a different timeline, characters, story, miniatures, and factions, etc. The legacy minis are being given what basically amounts to "Legends" rules in 40k, you'll be able to play them casually but not in competitive play, which means you probably won't really be able to play them casually either since competitive play always dictates how the game gets played at the casual level.
You know.... I'm not sure about that. The new "Prime" armies aren't being released at such an aggressive pace that it can really become the standard for a while. Unlimited is going to have to carry the load for a lot longer than something like a TCG rotation there's value in playing around with those Legacy armies. I don't think Unlimited is going to be the predominant tournament format by any means, but I think its pretty clear that Warmachine can't survive on the backs of the tournament crowd alone. It needs that Modern style "play with my old toys" setting specifically because its not competitive and when you burn out on the tournament treadmill its something to fuel the kitchen table crowd that both keeps old players engaged and provides a place for new players to jump in.
40k never really vanishes because for all the tournament hype it gets, there's always a bunch of people that are just kind of rolling dice with their toys. Modern and Commander are huge in keeping players involved when a new set turns them off. These are also the environments where new players tend to get their start before getting caught up in chasing the meta. Warmachine has never really had that. There was only the meta chase, which meant when you burned out, you just quit and new players really only had the option of jumping in the fire. Personally I'm going to have a Prime army or two, but I think its going to be crucial to always being open to playing Unlimited. It doesn't need tournaments; it doesn't need major support; it just needs a community willing to let people who want to play with their toys play. If the playerbase can't find a reason to play games that aren't grinding out practice for the next meaningless tournament, then its just not going to survive regardless of what changes PP makes going forward.
As for House Kallyss, they are an army for the Dusk faction. Ret no longer exists, nor does Ios really as all the Iosans bevame eldritch or soulless following the destruction of the Iosan gods.
*mind blown*
When did this happen and can you please elaborate and or please point me to where i vsn read about it?
As for House Kallyss, they are an army for the Dusk faction. Ret no longer exists, nor does Ios really as all the Iosans bevame eldritch or soulless following the destruction of the Iosan gods.
*mind blown*
When did this happen and can you please elaborate and or please point me to where i vsn read about it?
It's in the IKRPG stuff. I think Requiem or maybe one of the later ones. But yeah, Scyrrah's dead. Iosans have no gods and are going the Goreshade route.
the elf stuff is in the borderlands and beyond book primarily
requiem was mostly just "strange and spooky things are happening in the elf woods"
now its "they ganked their own gods and now the place is hella cursed"
I'm curious to see where they go with the army given it will have the eldritch almost vampires in command, but with all the living units basically being soulless, so a different path compared to what cryx has usually been
You know.... I'm not sure about that. The new "Prime" armies aren't being released at such an aggressive pace that it can really become the standard for a while. Unlimited is going to have to carry the load for a lot longer than something like a TCG rotation there's value in playing around with those Legacy armies. I don't think Unlimited is going to be the predominant tournament format by any means, but I think its pretty clear that Warmachine can't survive on the backs of the tournament crowd alone. It needs that Modern style "play with my old toys" setting specifically because its not competitive and when you burn out on the tournament treadmill its something to fuel the kitchen table crowd that both keeps old players engaged and provides a place for new players to jump in.
Did you miss the part where most Legacy models and units won't be receiving mk4 rules for another 12-18 months? Unlimited can't "carry the load", because PP has set up a phased rollout that seems specifically designed to prevent that from occuring (for what should be onvious reasons). They are heavily incentivizing purchase of the new minis and armies for Prime play by making everyone wait for access to rules for their existing collections. By the time Legacy options are fullh fleshed out, one would assume the Prime playerbase will be substantially larger and more active.
Beyond that, given that the majority of the people with Legacy collections *are* competitive players, I dont see Unlimited gaining any traction as a casual format, not when the miniatures are being discontinued and going out of production permanently. Theres little incentive for new more casual players to pick those models up, and theres little incentive for competitive vets to continue playing with them.
Its also worth noting that PP has a long history of not supporting alternative play formats, in that theyve launched like a dozen of them over the past 20+ years but stopped supporting them all within months. Multiple play formats requires a very large community, as each format essentially splits the playerbase to some extent, and that splinter population nedds to be large enough to be continually active and self-sustaining or it will collapse. PP has never had a big enough community to support and sustain more than one format, even GW struggles with it when it comes to 40k, nor do any other ministures games I am aware of have multiple active play formats. Given PPs track record theres no reason to think they will succeed where they and others have previously failed. Even MtG struggles with some of its play formats and only seems to be able to reliably maintain 2-3 formats at once in active widespread play and thats a significantly larger player community and a game that plays much faster (which allows alternate formats to survive as pallet cleansers in between Standard/Modern games).
As for House Kallyss, they are an army for the Dusk faction. Ret no longer exists, nor does Ios really as all the Iosans bevame eldritch or soulless following the destruction of the Iosan gods.
*mind blown*
When did this happen and can you please elaborate and or please point me to where i vsn read about it?
It's in the IKRPG stuff. I think Requiem or maybe one of the later ones. But yeah, Scyrrah's dead. Iosans have no gods and are going the Goreshade route.
Damn.... need to catch up on my ikrpg stuff. Never realised they updated it all...
You know.... I'm not sure about that. The new "Prime" armies aren't being released at such an aggressive pace that it can really become the standard for a while. Unlimited is going to have to carry the load for a lot longer than something like a TCG rotation there's value in playing around with those Legacy armies. I don't think Unlimited is going to be the predominant tournament format by any means, but I think its pretty clear that Warmachine can't survive on the backs of the tournament crowd alone. It needs that Modern style "play with my old toys" setting specifically because its not competitive and when you burn out on the tournament treadmill its something to fuel the kitchen table crowd that both keeps old players engaged and provides a place for new players to jump in.
Did you miss the part where most Legacy models and units won't be receiving mk4 rules for another 12-18 months? Unlimited can't "carry the load", because PP has set up a phased rollout that seems specifically designed to prevent that from occuring (for what should be onvious reasons). They are heavily incentivizing purchase of the new minis and armies for Prime play by making everyone wait for access to rules for their existing collections. By the time Legacy options are fullh fleshed out, one would assume the Prime playerbase will be substantially larger and more active.
Beyond that, given that the majority of the people with Legacy collections *are* competitive players, I dont see Unlimited gaining any traction as a casual format, not when the miniatures are being discontinued and going out of production permanently. Theres little incentive for new more casual players to pick those models up, and theres little incentive for competitive vets to continue playing with them.
Its also worth noting that PP has a long history of not supporting alternative play formats, in that theyve launched like a dozen of them over the past 20+ years but stopped supporting them all within months. Multiple play formats requires a very large community, as each format essentially splits the playerbase to some extent, and that splinter population nedds to be large enough to be continually active and self-sustaining or it will collapse. PP has never had a big enough community to support and sustain more than one format, even GW struggles with it when it comes to 40k, nor do any other ministures games I am aware of have multiple active play formats. Given PPs track record theres no reason to think they will succeed where they and others have previously failed. Even MtG struggles with some of its play formats and only seems to be able to reliably maintain 2-3 formats at once in active widespread play and thats a significantly larger player community and a game that plays much faster (which allows alternate formats to survive as pallet cleansers in between Standard/Modern games).
PP has supported alternative formats plenty. They dragged Champions along for years. The Warmachine community has a TERRIBLE history of supporting alternative formats. Every league, casual event, you name it has been met with so much scorn and apathy they just kind of died off. Will that happen with Unlimited? Probably. Do I think the game will ever thrive again if that's the case? Not really. Either the playerbase needs to get over their tournament fetish or the game will die out. I say this as someone ran a thriving tournament scene for years. I love analyzing the meta and figuring out counters and pretty much everything that entails. I got my competitive chops from the fighting game community in the arcade era when you got good or paid up. It can be great, but without a casual well, the competitive playerbase eats itself alive. Warmachine needs Unlimited. It does not need Unlimited tournaments by any means; it just needs the player base to not reject the legacy content entirely to focus on grinding out tournament practice. Support people who don't want to buy new stuff and let them play with what they've got. And yes, its going to be a while before all that stuff gets rules, but that first batch of armies is clearly not all new models. We've seen Exemplar and Banes to start with and these first run armies are going to be how most people play. Not everyone is switching to Cygnar.
As for House Kallyss, they are an army for the Dusk faction. Ret no longer exists, nor does Ios really as all the Iosans bevame eldritch or soulless following the destruction of the Iosan gods.
*mind blown*
When did this happen and can you please elaborate and or please point me to where i vsn read about it?
It's in the IKRPG stuff. I think Requiem or maybe one of the later ones. But yeah, Scyrrah's dead. Iosans have no gods and are going the Goreshade route.
Damn.... need to catch up on my ikrpg stuff. Never realised they updated it all...
Is it possible to buy the books in the UK?
They have the Requiem PDFs on DriveThruRPG.
According to Wayland Games the retail sales for Requiem will be in a few days?
Borderlands and Beyond copies only just started getting to backers (I got mine literally today as it happens) so I wouldn't expect those in print retail for a few months.
Their Kickstarter for the Nightmare Empire (Cryx turf) sourcebook just finished and I think they have pledges for late backers eventually.
Monkeysloth wrote: For those that want a classic design this is a mini crate model that was also announced today.
might be the 6 month bonus mini, not been confirmed yet.
Looks bonkers good. Where are Minicrate models announced these days? I've been a subscriber for two years and never even gotten a newsletter about what's coming, and the old site just points you to PP:s webstore now.
Monkeysloth wrote: For those that want a classic design this is a mini crate model that was also announced today.
might be the 6 month bonus mini, not been confirmed yet.
Looks bonkers good. Where are Minicrate models announced these days? I've been a subscriber for two years and never even gotten a newsletter about what's coming, and the old site just points you to PP:s webstore now.
The webstore kind of acts as the main hub for a lot of stuff like that now.
All legacy rules are supposed to drop I think in October 2022. Limited Cryx and Menoth beta rules have been released already to get a feel for where old stuff is headed.
Monkeysloth wrote: For those that want a classic design this is a mini crate model that was also announced today.
might be the 6 month bonus mini, not been confirmed yet.
Looks bonkers good. Where are Minicrate models announced these days? I've been a subscriber for two years and never even gotten a newsletter about what's coming, and the old site just points you to PP:s webstore now.
The webstore kind of acts as the main hub for a lot of stuff like that now.
Aah, I see. Thanks! Can't find that particular one on there but I'll have to keep an eye out
At a first glance those look much, much better than the album floating around about someone's Cygnar battlegroup. Got me a little hopeful, since I really did love the design of the new Cygnar stuff, but the print quality on that one batch was just unacceptable.
) but I don't like 
