I always find it fascinating to see how folks from various places like to kick back and enjoy a quality beverage (which may or may not be age-restricted).
So what is your libation of choice at the end of the day? Do you prefer beer, wine, or something stronger?
I usually have a Fat Yak pale ale or two at the weekend, never drink alcohol during the week. If it's the holidays or a long weekend, I'll get myself a bottle of Mr Blacks coffee liqueur.
Special occasions? Mead or Tennessee Honey and coke.
The exact beer I’m agnostic about, provided it’s from the pump, or in extremis a bottle. I don’t like stuff that comes from the tap. Given the choice I’ll take a malty over a hoppy. Except that Old Ale I tried the other week. Without word of a lie, it’s after taste was of burning tyres.
I’ve moved over to sugar free in light of my waistline, but with the change from 11% to 5% sugar in the great sugar taxination of a few years ago, even the current full fat stuff tastes more like sugar free than the original syrupy goodness
I can’t stand coffee, so this is my caffeination method of choice.
Never been big on alcohol, but beer and cider are nice occasionally. It’s funny, as for one people kids drive them to drink, but for me and my wife the ever present paranoia of maybe needing to suddenly spring into action due to Illness or injury led to us basically becoming teetotal. It’s stuck, even though the kids aren’t really tiny any more.
Most of the time I prefer my gin in a martini. I generally go for a milder gin, like Hendricks or a amazing local one, Sly Fox. With a twist if I have a lemon in the house, but more often olives. In the summer I do enjoy a nice G&T.
Bourbon (or rye whiskey depending on what I picked up last) is either over a frozen Death Star, or as an old fashioned. Depending if I have an orange to shave. Over the summer I won a gift basket at charity raffle that was the fixings for manhattans, so have been making those on occasion. Gotta be careful there, as I’ve had Bad Experiences. (Pro tip: when trying to keep up with the old hands, don’t make the assumption that something served in a tumbler contains mixers)
When in doubt: coffee. But I also like a beer now and then. On normal weekdays non alcoholic (the local supermarket has a very fruity wheat beer that I like), when alcoholic I prefer czech pilsner (Brezniak), "Hefeweizen", guiness or irish red ale.
On the warm beverage side: hot chocolate and Carob are also pretty nice.
Nevelon wrote: . (Pro tip: when trying to keep up with the old hands, don’t make the assumption that something served in a tumbler contains mixers)
Some years ago, I found myself in a Madison, Wisconsin bar that specialized in Old Fashioneds. As the drink orders were placed, I said I'd have an Old Fashioned. "Brandy or whiskey?" came the reply. I'd actually never thought about it, so on the spur of the moment I said "both."
At this point I should mention that I'm a retired senior NCO in the Air Force and the fellow next to me was a retired Army officer. He was asked for his order and giving me a steely gaze he said: "I'll have the same."
I do not remember much of the evening after that, but apparently the duel ended in a draw with minimal casualties.
In general awareness of what you are drinking is an important thing.
A while back at game night, one of the guys brings a growler of beer, pours a glass for whoever wanted one. Good beer, goes down smooth, still some in the growler, another round.
Now this is all before the food we ordered showed up, so I’m drinking on an empty stomach. But i’ve got the old “one beer=one glass of wine=one shot of liquor” math, where your average person can process one an hour. I’m not such a lightweight where 2 beers should do me in, but when I stand up to get a slice of pizza the world is a little wobbly. “WTF is the APV of that?!” I accuse my friend. He looks it up on his phone, and I forget the exact number and how full the pours were, but I had just pounded back the equivalent of 5-6 beers with nothing to help soak it up in under an hour.
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As I sit here are my computer looking at the snow come down outside, here is one of my holiday wintertime favorites:
Mulled Cider wrote:
1 whole cinnamon stick
16 cloves
1 tsp. whole allspice
whole medium orange studded with cloves (or fresh orange zest)
6 c. apple juice
2 c. cranberry juice
1/4 c. sugar
dash lemon juice
1 c. rum (optional)
Simmer everything, except the rum, as long as you like. It makes the house smell festive at Christmas. The rum should be added before serving or can be added by jigger to individual servings instead of to the whole pot. If you want to be neat, the whole spices can be tied in a cheesecloth bag and removed before serving.
It’s not actually cider, but apple juice, but that’s what on the recipe card. These days I use cran-apple juice and straight apple juice in a 1:1 ratio and omit the sugar, as there is already enough in the cranapple.
Flinty wrote: I’m a walking Scottish cliche. Irn Bru please
I’ve moved over to sugar free in light of my waistline, but with the change from 11% to 5% sugar in the great sugar taxination of a few years ago, even the current full fat stuff tastes more like sugar free than the original syrupy goodness
I can’t stand coffee, so this is my caffeination method of choice.
Never been big on alcohol, but beer and cider are nice occasionally. It’s funny, as for one people kids drive them to drink, but for me and my wife the ever present paranoia of maybe needing to suddenly spring into action due to Illness or injury led to us basically becoming teetotal. It’s stuck, even though the kids aren’t really tiny any more.
As an Ex-Pat Jock, I can’t drink Irn Bru on its own, because it leaves me cracking a proper Fish Supper, with salt’n’sauce (extra sauce, smoked sausage on the side), from a Glass Ginger.
I was mortified, mortified when we moved Daaaaaahn Saaaarf and couldn’t get a decent chippy.
I like a glass or three of Root 1 white wine or a few bottles of Tiger or Estrella Damm beer. Soft drinks would be Coke Zero and Coffee (not mixed together bleh).
On an evening, I drink proper beer, none of that lager pap. I'm fairly particular, because there's a lot of crap out there. A lot of the "real ales" you can get at supermarkets are absolute gak. Craft beer has lost its mind, certainly in the UK. People putting guava and citrus and whatever in their tins and most of them don't taste any different. Give me a nice brown ale or a stout in the winter and something lighter in the summer. I try and find local breweries and try out their beers. Us in the Northeast make the best beers going. The only other people I trust to make a good beer are the Belgians.
I'm also partial to a bottle of wine with a nice meal at home. I drink a whisky or two on a special occasion. To be honest the only stuff I don't like is Sambuca. This makes it sound like I drink a lot of bouwze but really, not so much anymore.
For softies, Irn Bru is definitely my favourite fizzy pop. Tea and coffee are a requirement for having willpower in the morning.
Mostly tea. With a bit of milk. Sugar is an occasional treat (once or twice a month). I drink coffee regularly in lieu of sleep but tea is what I drink for enjoyment.
For alcohol, prefer a proper ale, cider, or mead if I can find it. Nothing too hoppy for beer, can't stand IPAs and most lagers are awful to my taste. Prefer a dry cider. Not fussy on the mead so long as it isn't that blended crap that's mostly white wine. Having said that, hardly drink alcohol these days.
I rarely drink alcohol, but if I do, my drinks of choice are not-too dry white wines, Smirnoff Ice, Angry Orchard hard cider, or a mixed drink with Vodka.
Regular drink of choice, Dr. Pepper, or Mountain Dew.
If I'm pairing it with the food, I can't have Grilled Cheese without Chocolate milk. I just can't. If it's an Italian dish with marinara, white milk.
Not a lot of East Asians that I can see in this thread eh?
I'm not a coffee guy, was raised off tea, so usually it's between Oolong, Jasmine, HK style tea or Earl Grey.
In terms of indulging sweet drinks, I drink bubble tea, usually matcha and original flavour. For fruity stuff, it's usually kumquat or grapefruit.
I don't really drink alcohol, but so far I like Chocolate Mudshakes and a really nice Apple Cider Sake. Usually the actual mix/cocktail I drink needs to have enough flavour to overpower the taste of alcohol for me to enjoy it. That's why beer and wine are off the board for me.
I mostly drink water and Gatorade even though I don't enjoy it. Tope the lemon lime up with either limo or lime juice and it's bearable Top the Orange up with Grapefruit juice and again it's palatable. I do enjoy Grapefruit juice.
Don't drink a lot of sodas any more just Ginger ale mostly or some cream soda if it's around but not daily just maybe 2 or 3 over a week.
Black coffee all year but a hint of cream and sugar when the days are shorter.
For milk I only drink our goats milk. There is a huge flavor and consistancy differance between that and what most people can buy at the store. Goat milk is superior.
For booze it's Wild turkey, Jack Denials and Jose cuervo reposado. But I have almost stopped drinking over the last two years.
I do enjoy a drink but not even once a month now. Which is fine because I can buy a more expensive bottle and it lasts much longer. I have a barrel proof Jack Daniels still on my shelf now that's more than 3 years old.
After a brief chat with Pyro, I had a fun idea that I wanted to swing past people on this thread after seeing everyone's replies.
Would anyone be interested in setting up a booze club?
My thought would be: you pick a drink you are particularly fond of from your local area and send it by post to those who are interested. It doesn't necessarily have to be alcohol but something that you are proud of from your region. And everyone in turn does the same thing, that way it's not a loss money wise.
I'm sure we could figure out a way to ship internationally so it isn't painfully expensive. Perhaps one person is designated as the recipient of everything from one nation and they send a box to someone international and then they distribute nationally?
Happy to workshop up a smarter way to do it, but anyone interested?
Olthannon wrote: After a brief chat with Pyro, I had a fun idea that I wanted to swing past people on this thread after seeing everyone's replies.
Would anyone be interested in setting up a booze club?
My thought would be: you pick a drink you are particularly fond of from your local area and send it by post to those who are interested. It doesn't necessarily have to be alcohol but something that you are proud of from your region. And everyone in turn does the same thing, that way it's not a loss money wise.
I'm sure we could figure out a way to ship internationally so it isn't painfully expensive. Perhaps one person is designated as the recipient of everything from one nation and they send a box to someone international and then they distribute nationally?
Happy to workshop up a smarter way to do it, but anyone interested?
An alternative would be for a "drink of the week/month" that is put up and people try to get some and then comment on it.
Obviously, super-obscure beers from the struggling micro-brew down the street are going to be challenging, but even those who can't get ahold of it might enjoy the commentary.
Yes, but we should include non-alcoholic drinks as well. Maybe do one of each. There are a lot of varieties of coffee, tea, soft drinks, juices, etc. This could also include "kiddie cocktails" - mixed drinks without alcohol.
Maybe announce the selection with advanced notice (so people can obtain it) and then on the set day, everyone drinks and then writes what they think.
If there's something intensely local but feasible to ship, advanced notice would be required, so we could do a calendar and accept nominations for future dates between drinkings.
Olthannon wrote: After a brief chat with Pyro, I had a fun idea that I wanted to swing past people on this thread after seeing everyone's replies.
Would anyone be interested in setting up a booze club?
My thought would be: you pick a drink you are particularly fond of from your local area and send it by post to those who are interested. It doesn't necessarily have to be alcohol but something that you are proud of from your region. And everyone in turn does the same thing, that way it's not a loss money wise.
I'm sure we could figure out a way to ship internationally so it isn't painfully expensive. Perhaps one person is designated as the recipient of everything from one nation and they send a box to someone international and then they distribute nationally?
Happy to workshop up a smarter way to do it, but anyone interested?
An alternative would be for a "drink of the week/month" that is put up and people try to get some and then comment on it.
Obviously, super-obscure beers from the struggling micro-brew down the street are going to be challenging, but even those who can't get ahold of it might enjoy the commentary.
Agreed on this. . . Because in my particular piece of the US it is highly illegal to ship beer (as an average joe customer person), and the local shop I enquired about getting a brew out of Colorado, they told me that the state is crazy restrictive even on them. Basically, the only way to get a "special order" of beer in this state is to get it picked up by their distribution company, and get a truckload shipped in. . . Its perfectly fine to special order *A* bottle of wine across state lines (as a store, not so much joe customer, again) because of the way the law is written (apparently), but beer gets the short end of the stick here.
As a genuine fan of beer, and trying whatever is on tap?
Im not sure a Dakka Beer Book Club would work, because even when not a super, one town, localised tipple? Few decent beers are available nationwide, let alone international.
Which is why I love my beer and ale. Unlike gassy, vile, pissy lager? There are genuinely different tastes and flavours of beer and ale. And yes I dare say for non-commercial-production-level lagers.
Example? Cider and Perry.
Actual proper small batch Cider and Perry (no, not pear flavoured Cider. Actual Perry) can be bloody lethal in the ABV.
Fun and tasty in half pints. But anymore than that and the Beer Monkey is going to sack it off and call in The Raging Cider Baboon. And when you’ve been the victim of the Raging Cider Baboon once? It’s a lesson learned.
For the Beer Monkey merely ruffles your hair, poops in your gob and riffles through your wallet? The Raging Cider Baboon will do all of that, but also slap you six ways from Sunday, drag you up a tree and leave you horribly mangled.
Im not sure a Dakka Beer Book Club would work, because even when not a super, one town, localised tipple? Few decent beers are available nationwide, let alone international.
I think there is room for both highly local flavor discussions and general thoughts on more available beverages. For example, if the "international" beverage is a lager or one of those vile IPAs, others could chime in with local variations on the same.
There are also mixed drink combinations people can try with local ingredients/recipes. The cider and perry thing was hitherto unknown to me, so I'm intrigued.
I think there is room for both highly local flavor discussions and general thoughts on more available beverages. For example, if the "international" beverage is a lager or one of those vile IPAs, others could chime in with local variations on the same.
Just my .02 thoughts. . . if there were to be a dakka club, whoever is running it could run it more thematically, rather than "get X brand beer, try it." . . . For instance, they could do Jan 1-14, our beer is Porter, so find a porter and report in to us!. Following 2 weeks, it could be Hefeweizen, or maybe something like "go to your local dining establishment and order a cocktail that contains Bourbon". Or, do as my father does, and try to order the same drink, to see how different places make it (his fave is the Negroni).
this way, you'd still have a huge variety of drinks, and people would not be hampered by local availability.
Vodka, triple sec, orange juice, cranberry juice, or lemonade. I can handle an inordinate amount of this combination.
I literally can't handle beer at all anymore. Whiskey is tolerable.
Just my .02 thoughts. . . if there were to be a dakka club, whoever is running it could run it more thematically, rather than "get X brand beer, try it." . . . For instance, they could do Jan 1-14, our beer is Porter, so find a porter and report in to us!. Following 2 weeks, it could be Hefeweizen, or maybe something like "go to your local dining establishment and order a cocktail that contains Bourbon". Or, do as my father does, and try to order the same drink, to see how different places make it (his fave is the Negroni).
this way, you'd still have a huge variety of drinks, and people would not be hampered by local availability.
Yes, that is a great way of expressing it. If people can find the same exact brand, great, but if not, they can post something similar.
My drink of choice remains just about any type of soda, occasionally lemonade if I'm in the right mood. Never got into drinking alcohol and given that a year ago today I lost a friend to liver failure from alcoholism I'm not about to start now.
Commissar von Toussaint wrote: The Great Pie Fight reminded me of this. Michigan's weather is cooling off and it's a great time to savor brandy in a warmed snifter here.
Do folks alternate between seasonal drinks or is it the same thing all the time?
There are defiantly things I’ll only drink in the summer. G&Ts and Sours being the big ones that come to mind. And while I’ll tend to drink lighter beers over darker beers when it’s warm out, I’ll drink either any day. Generally gravitate towards the darker ones anyway. I am prone to try the seasonal stuff; if there is an Octoberfest on tap, that’s what I’m drinking.
I like to make mulled cider for the holidays. So that’s a seasonal thing.
Some drinks are determined by what I have in the house. If oranges are on sale, I’m drinking old fashioneds. Or if I need some zest for a recipe (like the cranberry pistachio cookies I make for the holidays) the rest of the peel goes into the drink.
So a mix of binary yes/no options and subtle trends.
Getting chilly now and we're lighting the wood burner in the evenings. What goes very nicely with that is a glass of port, swiftly followed by falling asleep on the sofa...
Crispy78 wrote: Getting chilly now and we're lighting the wood burner in the evenings. What goes very nicely with that is a glass of port, swiftly followed by falling asleep on the sofa...
The drink of choice for Evelyn Waugh. You're in good company!
It's getting cold and dreary, so it's whiskey season here at Chateau Lloyd, and an occasional brandy, especially when I get a fire going.
Falling asleep on the couch (or in the comfy chair) is indeed a danger this time of year because the cat has gone from stretching out to cool off to leeching warmth from whatever human is handy. She's on my legs even now, which is unfortunate, because my whiskey glass is empty. :(
Now that it's cooling off, I am returning to my tendency to make my drink "count" . . .
For beer, usually its some form of Belgian Trappist beer, usually in the region of 9-11% abv.
I have also been warned of my parents downsizing their liquor cabinet, and as such we're getting bankers boxes full of mixing stuff (ie, tequila, rum, gin, whiskey, whisky, etc). . . So, to make room, I've been enjoying more of my long held scotches. I think last night was a Glenfiddich 18 year.
Ensis Ferrae wrote: Now that it's cooling off, I am returning to my tendency to make my drink "count" . . .
For beer, usually its some form of Belgian Trappist beer, usually in the region of 9-11% abv.
I have also been warned of my parents downsizing their liquor cabinet, and as such we're getting bankers boxes full of mixing stuff (ie, tequila, rum, gin, whiskey, whisky, etc). . . So, to make room, I've been enjoying more of my long held scotches. I think last night was a Glenfiddich 18 year.
Commissar von Toussaint wrote: By "beer" I assume you mean some sort of peaty thing with bits of dirt in it that is served at room temperature?
Over the summer I was drinking a lot of Modelo intermingled with Asahi, but I'm probably going to get back to my German roots as the weather darkens.
I do like the Asahi, though.
I mean Beer, bunghole.
No fizzy pish.
No “extra cold” awfulness.
Honest to goodness beer. And ale.
Something genuinely quaffable, but not of such ABV you can apply the clutch before oblivion. Enough to give you a buzz, and should you wish to push it that way, wake up upside down, up a tree, 40 miles away, with no idea who you are or how you got there.
A session beer. Something one can easily cawcanny on. And unlike Stella, doesn’t send you radgey
I'm going to cross the threads here and note yet again that the American cultural inheritance with regard to beer is - as with food - overwhelmingly German, and you see that in the brand names. We have more Belgian beers than English ones. Heck, we have more Chinese beers (though Tsingtao is German in origin). Some folks like Guinness, but it gives me a headache.
I guess the English element is reflected in cider, of which we are getting more all the time. Strongbow is a family favorite among the womenfolk of Chateau Lloyd, and considerably cheaper than Moet & Chandon, which my wife considers the only champagne suitable for human consumption (and even then, she will only have either the Rose or Nectar Imperial - Brut is right out).
I used to be a big stout man, the bitterer the better. But the family curse of celiac seems to be catching up to me, so I'm looking into brewing my own mead, since most of the gluten free beers I've tried have been mediocre at best.
I think something like a session mead bochet (with carmelised honey so it has a darker colour and some of the toasted flavours) with bitter hops might get close enough to the sort of beer I like to drink. Pain in the arse, but at least home brewing is fun!
Da Boss wrote: I used to be a big stout man, the bitterer the better. But the family curse of celiac seems to be catching up to me, so I'm looking into brewing my own mead, since most of the gluten free beers I've tried have been mediocre at best.
I think something like a session mead bochet (with carmelised honey so it has a darker colour and some of the toasted flavours) with bitter hops might get close enough to the sort of beer I like to drink. Pain in the arse, but at least home brewing is fun!
My wife has coeliac disease and funnily enough we started thinking about brewing our own mead.
Recently had my first proper Autumn "brown bowze" by my favourite local brewery Firebrick Brewery - beer in question is called Tormit Heed and it's an absolute beaut.
I don’t mind Cider. It’s not my drink of choice most of the time, but on the rare scorching summer days? A good pint of chilled cider slides down very nicely.
If your missus is into Strongbow? I’d look into, and I feel dirty using this next word, “artisanal” cider.
Because proper proper cider. Like, Welsh and West Country cider is mental on the ABV. But so, so tasty. Like…smoky apple juice. And concerningly, it rarely shows signs of its potency in the flavour.
As a Yoof, I had many, many regrettable nights on cider.
Scrumpy is for the hardcore though. I can drink a lot, certainly more than is advisable (can and do are not the same thing for anyone concerned for my health and sanity!), but Scrumpy I’ll stick to Half Pints only, and with a decent gap between each serving, because that stuff sneaks up on.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Example of Welsh Cider wot I’ve had a pint of?
Just….cawcanny as my parents used to say. At 7.2% ABV, it’s a strong, smoky and delicious brew.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and if you really don’t care for your liver? Try proper proper “no, not pear flavoured cider” Perry.
Which is made from Pears.
That stuff is truly something else, with a completely different and perhaps unique flavour profile.
You know, given how much booze was produced and consumed in Britain? It’s inexplicable we got anything done, let alone got a really really big Empire going!
When I’ve had a skinful, all I want to do is watch bad movies and sleep.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I do seem to have a taste for traditional bowze. Hopefully not in a Hipster way.
For instance, Beer over Lager. Mead over Wine. Perry over Cider (certainly more so than the like of Strongbow).
Beer particularly, as a decent pub will have three or four on Pump, so there’s usually a different experience to be had.
I drank a lot of home-brew mead in my 20s. A staple of the reenactor diet. I tried some of the commercial stuff and it was just too sweet for my aged palate. Mead is popular with the DIY set because it's much easier to make than beer.
Speaking of DIY, for a wedding gift, my father-in-law gave me a gallon jug of pure White Lighting, actual moonshine crafted in a dry county. Potent stuff, blue flame and all that. Very smooth. Took five years to finish it.
Your White Lightning is very different to our White Lightning….
Wikipedia wrote: At the end of 2009, Heineken decided to discontinue its manufacture due to its brand image problem in the United Kingdom as having become synonymous with under-age drinking, anti-social behaviour, homelessness and impoverished alcoholism, in an echo of the Gin Craze of the 18th century.[3] Such cheap non-distilled drinks (both high-strength beer and cider) became known as "tramp juice" in the UK media. When sold on special at Off licences, 3 litre plastic bottles of 8.4% White Lightning could be purchased for less than £2.
Olthannon wrote: Our white lightning is Thunderbird in the US I think. Not in alcohol sense but in terms of who drinks it.
Yes, our White Lightning is pure corn liquor, 120+ proof. A little goes a long way.
A few years after I got that gift, the regulatory environment shifted. Tennessee in particular decided to give up on "revenuers" and put together a framework for moonshine to go legit. It's now considered a regional craft liquor, and they have national distributors for it. It's still sold in jars, though.
I remember Thunderbird, also Boone's Farm and Mad Dog 20/20. Nasty stuff, right up there with malt liquor. Anyone remember Billy Dee Williams selling Colt 45? The motto was "works every time," which is why suave gentlemen always push it on their lady friends should they come over for the evening. Sheesh.
Each US state has its own taxes and rules for liquor vs beer and wine, so in some jurisdictions, fortified wines or beers are cheaper while in others hard liquor (sometimes mixed in cheap soft drinks or juice) is the rule.
A few years back, there was an attempt to revive Zima, no doubt counting on ageing Gen X types having a bottle or two (completely with Jolly Rancher insert).
It didn't last long.
Did "wine coolers" ever make it across the pond? It was the precursor to box wine (my mother being an early adopter of the latter).
Wine coolers (and box wine) definitely made it to Australia, but only box wine has lasted mainstream - that being said, I did find and nostalgia buy some West Coast Coolers a few months back.
Box wine is a cultural icon here with young kids - lots of party games revolve around it.
My go-tos are usually soft drinks. Arizona Ice Tea (big can for 99c) or a soda - usually Dr Pepper, though these days its the zero calorie version of it (or coke or sprite). Not diet though, i dont like the aftertaste/zero is more palatable generally speaking. I also recently discovered Red Cream Soda at White Castle and have been going nuts for it. My first love though, soda wise, is grape soda (sunkist or welch's preferred, fanta is ok).
I drink alcohol only rarely, if I'm having a beer its usually whatevers on tap or in a bottle that sounds like it might be good, usually prefer fruity notes and i like sampling microbrews and imports - not big on domestics, though if im watching hockey I'll slum it with Labatt Blue or Molson Ice, or more rarely PBR. I prefer Guinness usually, though not in summer. I don't do IPA's, thats the devils work. Generally prefer sours or ciders over beer though.
If drinking hard, courtesy of my girlfriend my drink of choice has become an amaretto sour, its nice and smooth, sweet, pleasant, and if made right hits you in all the right spots. Not looking for a fight or something that bites when im trying to relax, no need for something hard and heavy thats going to punch me in my tastebuds. If I am having something harder its usually something i mix up at home with Kraken rum, usually a rum and coke or a homemade coquito (especially around the holidays, its a caribbean thing). If out to dinner and not driving anywhere I will often sample cocktails that sound appealing, again usually prefer sweet and fruity.
Farseer Anath'lan wrote: Wine coolers (and box wine) definitely made it to Australia, but only box wine has lasted mainstream - that being said, I did find and nostalgia buy some West Coast Coolers a few months back.
Box wine is a cultural icon here with young kids - lots of party games revolve around it.
Fascinating. Here in ye olde college town, "Beer Pong" is absolutely a thing. I'm curious as to what one can do with box wine (other than drink it, of course).
Farseer Anath'lan wrote: Wine coolers (and box wine) definitely made it to Australia, but only box wine has lasted mainstream - that being said, I did find and nostalgia buy some West Coast Coolers a few months back.
Box wine is a cultural icon here with young kids - lots of party games revolve around it.
Fascinating. Here in ye olde college town, "Beer Pong" is absolutely a thing. I'm curious as to what one can do with box wine (other than drink it, of course).
We do beer pong too - if you're feeling spicy you'll play it with "Little Fat Lamb" - an 8% "Cider" that comes in fruit flavours and 2L bottles.
Okay, two liter bottles of cider is genius. As to the game, wow, that's some serious wine drinking!
My daughter informs me that mixed drinks are the thing among the young kiddies these days. Lots of cocktails I've never heard of that seem to be some variation of vodka shots and something else. In my misspent youth, I recalled a "kamikaze" vendor who offered headbands for those who did three shots. Quite the sight to see people wandering the reenactment dressed like demented pilots, staggering around looking for a porta-potty.
Saturday night, 4 straight shots vodka or bacardi in a row, then 2 beers (currently great northern) over then next 15 minutes or so.
No time to muck around....
chaos0xomega wrote: My go-tos are usually soft drinks. Arizona Ice Tea (big can for 99c) or a soda - usually Dr Pepper, though these days its the zero calorie version of it (or coke or sprite). Not diet though, i dont like the aftertaste/zero is more palatable generally speaking. I also recently discovered Red Cream Soda at White Castle and have been going nuts for it. My first love though, soda wise, is grape soda (sunkist or welch's preferred, fanta is ok).
I also vastly prefer zero sugar to the "diet" sodas. Whatever artificial sweetener they use for zero generally tastes better than whatever they use for diet. This is especially true of root beer. Diet root beer is a vile liquid that nobody in their right mind should drink, whereas zero sugar root beer (particularly A&W) tastes almost like the regular full-sugar stuff.
That Red Cream Soda sounds pretty good, but it's been a hot minute since the last time I went to a White Castle. There is one in my hometown, so maybe it's time to check it out. As for grape soda, I like the taste, but it always leaves a bitter aftertaste that I've never cared for.
As for my real go-to soda, I tend to drink a fair amount of zero sugar Mountain Dew. I get basically all of my caffeine from sodas as I don't drink much coffee or tea, and Mountain Dew has a lot of it. I haven't been a regular coffee drinker since I graduated college, and unless you put an absurd amount of sugar in tea, it is just leaf juice that those folks in Boston were right to throw into the harbor (I think I just offended every British person on Dakka just now ).
My go-to is usually a simple lager. My wife and a few of our friends are more snobbish with beer; the friends in particular go for the "Here's 1/3 of a pint of a cherry/bitumen/new car smell sour beer that only cost £8", whereas I'll usually just have a lager or a G&T.
Coffee and water to start, water throughout the work day, and milk with dinner.
As far as my relaxation drinks? I'm partial to Hot Damn or any cinnamon schnapps, and will also tip back Jaeger or vodka. Beer was usually Blue Moon until I found out that we finally imported Hoffbrau so that's my beer of choice nowadays.
Valkyrie wrote: My go-to is usually a simple lager. My wife and a few of our friends are more snobbish with beer; the friends in particular go for the "Here's 1/3 of a pint of a cherry/bitumen/new car smell sour beer that only cost £8", whereas I'll usually just have a lager or a G&T.
Are British beer snobs a thing? I thought that American hipsters pretty much owned the "small batch organic IPA with hints of clover crowd.
I thought there was something of a class divide between the beer, wine and cider crowds.
In the US, I think it's more within the various types of beverage. So domestic vs import, IPA vs Pilsner, etc.
Valkyrie wrote: My go-to is usually a simple lager. My wife and a few of our friends are more snobbish with beer; the friends in particular go for the "Here's 1/3 of a pint of a cherry/bitumen/new car smell sour beer that only cost £8", whereas I'll usually just have a lager or a G&T.
Are British beer snobs a thing? I thought that American hipsters pretty much owned the "small batch organic IPA with hints of clover crowd.
I thought there was something of a class divide between the beer, wine and cider crowds.
In the US, I think it's more within the various types of beverage. So domestic vs import, IPA vs Pilsner, etc.
Very much so, craft beer places are popping up everywhere around here. The worst offender has to be Brewdog. I had to suffer visiting the one in Waterloo International a while back and it was close to £8 for a pint of mediocre lager. Luckily the company I work for owns the station development so they were paying for the beers that night.
Valkyrie wrote: Very much so, craft beer places are popping up everywhere around here. The worst offender has to be Brewdog. I had to suffer visiting the one in Waterloo International a while back and it was close to £8 for a pint of mediocre lager. Luckily the company I work for owns the station development so they were paying for the beers that night.
Sorry, it seems absurd for "craft beers" to be a thing anywhere in the Old World. You folks literally have establishments that go back hundreds of years. Seems to me to be the epitome of "craft."
I think that's why bourbon is treated with so much respect, since it's an indigenous refinement on distillation and the establishments go back to the foundation of the country (though due to Prohibition, some suffered an interruption in operations).
Indeed, my grandmother once told me that Prohibition boosted spirits and really transformed the beer culture, which had been all about Old World locally produced beers. She said that no one thought anything of kids being sent to the local biergarten to fetch their order.
After prohibition, American beer became like everything else - industrialized, homogenized, standardized. That only changed in the late 80s.
If it makes you feel better, microbreweries are starting to die off due to market oversaturation. Distilleries are emerging, and I'm sure there will be a market correction, but the product seems more varied.
So maybe the UK will get tired of the new hotness and go back to a jug of Old Overcoat.
If it makes you feel better, microbreweries are starting to die off due to market oversaturation. Distilleries are emerging, and I'm sure there will be a market correction, but the product seems more varied.
A few thoughts on this one. . . So, a classmate of mine is (or at least was, he doesn't do the socials and we've lost touch since graduation) a brewmaster who formerly worked at a local brewery. Dude was an absolute NERD when it came to beer. During our study abroad to Germany, we took a tour of the Weihenstephaner brewery, and our tourguide, who was in his "brew master's" course (aka, getting essentially a master's degree in beer brewing) was thoroughly taken aback by someone asking in depth, knowledgeable questions.
Anyhow. . . Over many a pint, we'd talk about the industry and historical trends. One very brief one is, when the economy tanks, alcohol, but especially beer goes up. Basically, when you can't afford much else, you can get a pack of beer.
For many years in the US, many microbrews were too chaotic. Constantly coming out with something new and "different". The most egregious of these were the breweries who made almost exclusively IPA's. (personally, I think they kept having to go more and more extreme cuz you IPA lovers are destroying your tastebuds, and thus need more extreme crap to taste anything ) We were already starting to see the early stages of a market contraction even before Covid hit. Basically, people who loved beer were beginning to lose their adventurous spirit, and they began to settle in to their few favorites. The local market still had good variety, and most beer drinkers (at least here) do not buy just one brand/offering exclusively. I guess you could say that I am fairly "typical" or emblematic of the local beer scene: I have a few types/varieties of beer that I enjoy depending on the season, so I rotate through maybe a half dozen throughout the year. . . And so, even before Covid, per my classmate, people were showing the beginning of "settling in", and this was starting to show in beer sales numbers internally (ie, new Hoppy IPA made with boot leather wasn't selling as well as Tried and True OG IPA they'd been doing for 5-10 years)
Then. . . the contraction really hit locally during and post covid. Now, my thoughts for DURING covid is, because beer and wine shops were deemed "essential business" they were open, but many people were conscious of being in public, so they spent far less time just looking at beer, and they'd run in, grab their stuff real quick and get out. So, there's less time really for "discovery" unless you bought a seasonal box from a brewery that had "mystery seasonal offering A"
And then, as covid wore on, we really settled into our ways, and so breweries really had to slim down the offerings. I've already noticed those who didn't do that, are already gone.
The final sort of big problem industry wide, affects everyone in any economic venture: the rents are too damn high. The breweries who were smart with money and actually own their own facilities have been more able to weather the contraction, especially if they have a well regarded local beer. And, the more local coverage you can get, the better in this regard. The rent thing has probably killed off a lot more of the poorly ran breweries than anything else, and that's where the sort of market correction comes in to play. I know my classmate came to school constantly complaining about the owner of his brewery making terrible business decisions. . . The most egregious was the silly idea that people came to their taproom for the food FIRST, and the beer second. Reality was the complete opposite. My classmate kept pushing for a smaller, tighter menu of food, and let him focus on producing better beers in more quantity (owner also kept them chasing too many seasonal nonsense beers, rather than having 3-5 truly great offerings year round, with 1 seasonal at a time. . . they had 2-3 full time offerings and 7-8 seasonals). Another local brewery went under this year in some part because the rent he was paying for the space, couldn't handle the business he was doing. Like, the layout and parking meant it was an unpopular spot for beer and food, even if he had simplified to "build your own pizza" or "build your own burger"
So. . . TL;DR is:
1. breweries going too crazy with offerings spread themselves too thin
2. beer fan, even beer "snobs" started settling in to select brews, and didn't need or want nearly so much variety
3. Poor business decisions with regard to facilities and business ventures.
EDIT: locally, the cider scene has started to take off here. . . not like beer did though, I think the cider distillers (brewers??) are learning from microbrew beer mistakes in that they are keeping it relatively simple. A few steadfast offerings done better all the time. Keep seasonals to a low amount. Recognizing also that a lot of people are a bit seasonal in cider drinking as well (it does go well with summer heat)
1. breweries going too crazy with offerings spread themselves too thin
2. beer fan, even beer "snobs" started settling in to select brews, and didn't need or want nearly so much variety
3. Poor business decisions with regard to facilities and business ventures.
EDIT: locally, the cider scene has started to take off here. . . not like beer did though, I think the cider distillers (brewers??) are learning from microbrew beer mistakes in that they are keeping it relatively simple. A few steadfast offerings done better all the time. Keep seasonals to a low amount. Recognizing also that a lot of people are a bit seasonal in cider drinking as well (it does go well with summer heat)
All of that is consistent with what I have seen, especially the flavor consolidation. People want a signature flavor, and maybe a variant or two, but that mainstay is what people come back for.
It can also get you actual distribution for off-site sales, which is the next logical step. One advantage distillers have is longer shelf life, so they can run batches when needed.
Cider has a key advantage beer doesn't - apple producers are naturally well-suited to make it. A lot of growers are finding success in making hard cider, which they can set aside for a "lean" year. This is causing others to lean into distilling, which is the next logical step. As one of the owners told me a couple of years back: making a brandy from apples is the ultimate hedge against a bad crop. Bottle it when you need it, otherwise, let it age. If there's a catastrophic frost (as happened in 2013), release the "special reserve" as a limited edition.
Cider has a key advantage beer doesn't - apple producers are naturally well-suited to make it. A lot of growers are finding success in making hard cider, which they can set aside for a "lean" year. This is causing others to lean into distilling, which is the next logical step. As one of the owners told me a couple of years back: making a brandy from apples is the ultimate hedge against a bad crop. Bottle it when you need it, otherwise, let it age. If there's a catastrophic frost (as happened in 2013), release the "special reserve" as a limited edition.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't cider apples, like wine grapes, grown exclusively for drink making and are basically "inedible" as a fruit?
And, by inedible, I mean that, like wine grapes, they taste like gak when eaten straight off the tree.
Cider has a key advantage beer doesn't - apple producers are naturally well-suited to make it. A lot of growers are finding success in making hard cider, which they can set aside for a "lean" year. This is causing others to lean into distilling, which is the next logical step. As one of the owners told me a couple of years back: making a brandy from apples is the ultimate hedge against a bad crop. Bottle it when you need it, otherwise, let it age. If there's a catastrophic frost (as happened in 2013), release the "special reserve" as a limited edition.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't cider apples, like wine grapes, grown exclusively for drink making and are basically "inedible" as a fruit?
And, by inedible, I mean that, like wine grapes, they taste like gak when eaten straight off the tree.
I believe that to be the case. Cider apples are meant for cider. However, cider is generally a seasonal drink, and it doesn't store well. If there is a late frost or some other calamity, the crop can be ruined and there will be no apples for the cider.
Hard cider keeps longer and you can charge more money for it. Distilling cider raises the price still more and also extends storage life. In fact, the longer one stores it, the more valuable it becomes. Thus, it is the perfect hedge against a bumper crop (which drives prices down) and a poor crop. If there's a glut of applies, distill a bunch of them. If there's a frost, open up the reserve to supplement your income. Cider brandy is delicious, by the way.
As a sidebar, if you follow agriculture at all, you will noticed that no one ever says the crop and prices are "just right." Either they lament overproduction or complain about a ruined crop.
In origin, it was like most booze probably just a result of the need to preserve foodstuffs.
Cursory Google suggests the original dates back to Roman Britain, when the natives would ferment Crab Apples. But it’s thought that you’d just use whichever apples you had to hand. The implication being your goal was either Make Dizzyade, or Preserve As Many Crops As Possible, rather than some gimp with a man-bun trying to be “artisan”.
In origin, it was like most booze probably just a result of the need to preserve foodstuffs.
Cursory Google suggests the original dates back to Roman Britain, when the natives would ferment Crab Apples. But it’s thought that you’d just use whichever apples you had to hand. The implication being your goal was either Make Dizzyade, or Preserve As Many Crops As Possible, rather than some gimp with a man-bun trying to be “artisan”.
Most of human history has been a struggle to find sufficient calories. Alcohol offered a two-fer: calories plus a buzz.
And if you think about it 'strong drink' was even better, since it could clean wounds! It also prevents illness. My grandfather had at least two stout cocktails each day, and famously never got sick, living to a ripe old age.
I seem to be cut from the same cloth. A daily dose of what could fairly be called antiseptic has kept throat infections at bay for longer than I can remember. Some weeks ago I got a mild sinus infection and I was thrown for a loop - I hadn't been sick since 2019!
Have booked Friday off, so gonna slope to the pub Thursday night for some beers.
They usually have three or four on the pumps. And as we’re in the colder months, I’m hopeful for maltier fare, as I’m not a big fan of Hoppy Beers, as too Hoppy and it tastes like soap to me. Which is a recognise quirk of human taste buds. Like Coriander.
But more often then not I'm just having a ice cold glass of watah.
Some of my squadron-mates found themselves in Nigeria for...reasons. They were thirsty, and kept asking for water, but no one knew what it was. Finally, they spotted a bottle of the stuff, pointed at it and said that was what they needed.
"Oh! Watah!" And they got as much as they desired.
The joys of the American "r".
Overnight lows are below freezing here, and I'm dipping my toes into the warm, rewarding waters of brandy.
One does not simply drink brandy; it has to be savored. Slowly.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: In origin, it was like most booze probably just a result of the need to preserve foodstuffs.
Cursory Google suggests the original dates back to Roman Britain, when the natives would ferment Crab Apples. But it’s thought that you’d just use whichever apples you had to hand. The implication being your goal was either Make Dizzyade, or Preserve As Many Crops As Possible, rather than some gimp with a man-bun trying to be “artisan”.
Historically, one of the big reasons for distilling cider- and distillation in general- was transportation. Hauling cider to market or for delivery would be a lot easier if you could reduce its volume by a factor of three or four. In the American colonies, applejack was a common distilled spirit. You'd take your apple harvest in the fall, ferment it over the course of a few weeks in late fall/early winter, and then leave it outside in sub-freezing winter weather. The water content freezes into ice and can be skimmed off, while the alcohol remains. Barrel it up and you're all set.
In colonial America it was then typical to take your distilled spirit and mix it with water, citrus, and sugar, rather than drinking it neat. In ancient Rome, wine was diluted with two to four parts water, and drinking wine straight was considered a barbarian practice. In industrial Europe and the Americas, small beer clocked in at a measly 1-3% alcohol.
Really, it's the practice of producing and serving alcohol at 'full strength' that is a relatively modern trend. The primary historical purpose of booze was to concentrate precious calories into a shelf-stable form, and from there diverging into low-alcohol drinks suitable for hydration and high-alcohol drinks ideal for transport that would typically be diluted before serving. Though that didn't stop people in the 1700s-1800s from spending every day piss drunk, until the temperance movement came along.
Anyways, I enjoy pretty much any spirit and do a fair bit of homebrew. My passion project for the last couple of years has been making my own syrups and infusions to replicate classic tiki cocktails. For this Thanksgiving, though, I'm making a bowl of Philadelphia fish house punch for the family.
But more often then not I'm just having a ice cold glass of watah.
Some of my squadron-mates found themselves in Nigeria for...reasons. They were thirsty, and kept asking for water, but no one knew what it was. Finally, they spotted a bottle of the stuff, pointed at it and said that was what they needed.
"Oh! Watah!" And they got as much as they desired.
The joys of the American "r".
Overnight lows are below freezing here, and I'm dipping my toes into the warm, rewarding waters of brandy.
One does not simply drink brandy; it has to be savored. Slowly.
I’ve never developed an appreciation for Spirits myself. I’ll have a Jack and Coke, sure (pref Tennessee Honey and Diet Coke. Don’t you laugh at me!) but neat just isn’t my bag.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: In origin, it was like most booze probably just a result of the need to preserve foodstuffs.
Cursory Google suggests the original dates back to Roman Britain, when the natives would ferment Crab Apples. But it’s thought that you’d just use whichever apples you had to hand. The implication being your goal was either Make Dizzyade, or Preserve As Many Crops As Possible, rather than some gimp with a man-bun trying to be “artisan”.
Historically, one of the big reasons for distilling cider- and distillation in general- was transportation. Hauling cider to market or for delivery would be a lot easier if you could reduce its volume by a factor of three or four. In the American colonies, applejack was a common distilled spirit. You'd take your apple harvest in the fall, ferment it over the course of a few weeks in late fall/early winter, and then leave it outside in sub-freezing winter weather. The water content freezes into ice and can be skimmed off, while the alcohol remains. Barrel it up and you're all set.
In colonial America it was then typical to take your distilled spirit and mix it with water, citrus, and sugar, rather than drinking it neat. In ancient Rome, wine was diluted with two to four parts water, and drinking wine straight was considered a barbarian practice. In industrial Europe and the Americas, small beer clocked in at a measly 1-3% alcohol.
Really, it's the practice of producing and serving alcohol at 'full strength' that is a relatively modern trend. The primary historical purpose of booze was to concentrate precious calories into a shelf-stable form, and from there diverging into low-alcohol drinks suitable for hydration and high-alcohol drinks ideal for transport that would typically be diluted before serving. Though that didn't stop people in the 1700s-1800s from spending every day piss drunk, until the temperance movement came along.
Anyways, I enjoy pretty much any spirit and do a fair bit of homebrew. My passion project for the last couple of years has been making my own syrups and infusions to replicate classic tiki cocktails. For this Thanksgiving, though, I'm making a bowl of Philadelphia fish house punch for the family.
Depends. In the UK? We’d historically make Wreck The Hoose Juice for the sake of getting plastered. Gin by the pint! Whisky without any maturation, made in Stills hidden away on a mountainside.
But I have learned recently that people did drink fresh water in the olden days. Sure it was risky, but that risk dramatically shifted depending where exactly you were. Pre-Industrial era, streams were pretty clean out in the sticks, as there wasn’t a great deal pollute them. Towns and Cities of course Small Beer would be likely, because nobody likes squirting from both ends at the same time
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: In origin, it was like most booze probably just a result of the need to preserve foodstuffs.
Cursory Google suggests the original dates back to Roman Britain, when the natives would ferment Crab Apples. But it’s thought that you’d just use whichever apples you had to hand. The implication being your goal was either Make Dizzyade, or Preserve As Many Crops As Possible, rather than some gimp with a man-bun trying to be “artisan”.
Historically, one of the big reasons for distilling cider- and distillation in general- was transportation. Hauling cider to market or for delivery would be a lot easier if you could reduce its volume by a factor of three or four. In the American colonies, applejack was a common distilled spirit. You'd take your apple harvest in the fall, ferment it over the course of a few weeks in late fall/early winter, and then leave it outside in sub-freezing winter weather. The water content freezes into ice and can be skimmed off, while the alcohol remains. Barrel it up and you're all set.
In colonial America it was then typical to take your distilled spirit and mix it with water, citrus, and sugar, rather than drinking it neat. In ancient Rome, wine was diluted with two to four parts water, and drinking wine straight was considered a barbarian practice. In industrial Europe and the Americas, small beer clocked in at a measly 1-3% alcohol.
Really, it's the practice of producing and serving alcohol at 'full strength' that is a relatively modern trend. The primary historical purpose of booze was to concentrate precious calories into a shelf-stable form, and from there diverging into low-alcohol drinks suitable for hydration and high-alcohol drinks ideal for transport that would typically be diluted before serving. Though that didn't stop people in the 1700s-1800s from spending every day piss drunk, until the temperance movement came along.
Anyways, I enjoy pretty much any spirit and do a fair bit of homebrew. My passion project for the last couple of years has been making my own syrups and infusions to replicate classic tiki cocktails. For this Thanksgiving, though, I'm making a bowl of Philadelphia fish house punch for the family.
Ah, Applejack, aka Jersey Lightning. Not many know of it these days.
Your story is, incidentally, basically the underlying logic behind the events of how Brandy was accidentally invented. The idea was to distill out the water content from wine for shipping and then add the water back in at the destination in order to transport more of it in one go while reducing the tax burden on the end good, but after it was stored in wooden casks and aged a bit in transit, it was discovered that the quality of the liquor improved considerably over the original distilled wine before it was casked, but also that you couldn't just add water back into it to get wine again because the distillation process fundamentally altered the core flavors of it and the resulting end product was completely unlike what it started out as. Turned out that people really liked brandy though, so it became its own product.
In colonial America it was then typical to take your distilled spirit and mix it with water, citrus, and sugar, rather than drinking it neat. In ancient Rome, wine was diluted with two to four parts water, and drinking wine straight was considered a barbarian practice. In industrial Europe and the Americas, small beer clocked in at a measly 1-3% alcohol.
I think practices varied considerably. The summers at the Straits of Mackinac were one long party for more than a century as the furs rolled in during the spring and met up with the trade goods. Liquor was in serious demand, and when the British took over, they did the usual English Paternal thing and told everyone to Cut That Out, and practice Clean Living, and the Indians offered to massacre them on the spot unless they turned over the brandy casks.
(The Indians actually did massacre them in 1763 with complete impunity. After the rebellion was put down, the British sent out a new garrison and found the instigator still living in the neighborhood. Because he was a powerful and influential man, they left him alone, and it become customary for him to pay a call on each new commander when he arrived, you know, to check him out.)
The US Army had a regular ration for whiskey, which was naturally stored in barrels. By the time of the Civil War, the old stock was excellent. The new stock was pretty rough.
Military Special Bourbon is (depending on who you ask) either a rare delicacy or a good antiseptic/paint thinner. I've got a couple of half gallons on hand for either case. Can't be too prepared these days.
H.B.M.C. wrote: For me, it's the drink of choice during the prohibition era: Canadian Club
I endorse this. CanClub is a very satisfactory whiskey and in fact we keep it on hand for medicinal purposes. It is perfect to soothe a tummy or to use to clear up a sore throat.
Living in Michigan, we imported it by the ton, and several bootlegger vehicles have been verified along the bottom of the Detroit River.
Along with lots of lots of bottles thrown overboard when the Coasties showed up.
Used to work for a Spanish food and wine distributer about 15 years ago and learnt a fair bit about Spanish wine, but more importantly Spanish beer.
If the option is available, Alhambra 1925. If you read a description of it, it sounds like most other beers, but it is quite a dark lager. Really tasty and not obnoxious in its crafting, whilst being craft beer like.
For clarity, when I talk about obnoxious beers, I mean those that are crafted to be special/different mostly for the sake of being different as opposed to it actually improving the taste.
This is of course a joke. I may be known as something of a boozehound, but I’m not that stupid. Or reckless. Or indeed uncaring of the safety of others.
I have a sore throat right now, and it's driving me crazy.
Quick, to the liquor cabinet (not really... it's just one part of a shelf in my kitchen pantry! ).
Thanks for the tip!
Glad to be of help!
I've found that a medicine cup of whiskey gargled, swished and swallowed does a serious number on sore throats. I mean, you're basically drinking antiseptic.
A very effective remedy is some Jim Beam Honey Bourbon (it uses real honey, accept no imitations) added to hot tea. Soothes, heals, and also compels a nap, which you probably need anyway.
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