So I’ve seen a few threads discussing the worst primarch, and all the flaws and bad things about the primarchs, so I think it is time for some primarch positivity Who is everyones favourite primarch, and for what reasons?
Also if this thread has already been done please do not hesitate to correct me
My favourite tragedy in 40k. Born a weapon, made a slave, brutalised for his humanity, never given a chance to be anything else, and just when he's about to be free, sold into eternal slavery by a brother who claimed to love him.
Loyalists - lion el Johnson as the dark angels are cool and he is the best warrior of all the primarchs
Traitors - Alpharius/Omegon one of the most creative aspects of the whole primarch story is the 2 bodies 1 soul thing and the whole secrecy. Plus their style or warfare is so different from the other chapters and so at odds with what you would expect from astartes
Lorgar and Dorn are probably my two favourites. Lorgar is a pretty interesting character, highly flawed and probably tempermentally totally unsuited to being a Primarch, but ultimately he's the most influential Primarch of all.
Dorn is kinda the "perfect" loyalist Primarch, and he does everything right and even has good reasons for what he does, and thinks really seriously about it all. But in the end, he fails at everything he tries to do and is beaten down to breaking point by the collapse of the Great Crusade era Imperium into stagnation.
Probably biased, since my Loyalists are Crimson Fists, and my Traitors are Word Bearers.
Being a weirdo who always used narrative to play I like models who I like the story of so for me, I prefer Lorgar and a tie between Sanguinius and Jaghatai.
Lorgar as I enjoyed the way his story changed from worshipping the Emperor to being the one to lead other Primarchs to join Chaos.
For the loyalists what's not to like about the Great Angel? As for the Warhawk, a great warrior with a real sense of humour.
I mean obviously it's Fulgrim, there's seventeen male power archetypes, two no-shows, and a tragic Renaissance subtextual queer girl autobiography, the only thing missing is a catgirl BFF/secret crush. But setting aside anyone who ticks so many boxes it's basically cheating, I've always been quite fond of Rogal Dorn. I'm not up to speed on all the current lore (I still kind of dwell in the Rogue Trader-to-Third era and treat any updates as just unreliable narrators at work) but he's always struck me as kind of '*looks at world* "god dammit... Alright let's get to work"' and I respect that.
Insectum7 wrote: It's always been Guilliman for me, since 2nd ed. Seemed the most rational of the lot, and he had a focus on logistics that appeals to me.
But I hate that Primarchs are coming back now, and I dislike his model.
Oh, yeah. I really dislike everything about the modern conception of Primarchs, right down to them being giant sized. And definitely think they should mostly be in the deep past or lost to the madness of the Warp and not walking around the 40K setting like they are, yuck.
But they're a cool idea and in the Heresy they have their place.
Insectum7 wrote: It's always been Guilliman for me, since 2nd ed. Seemed the most rational of the lot, and he had a focus on logistics that appeals to me.
But I hate that Primarchs are coming back now, and I dislike his model.
Oh, yeah. I really dislike everything about the modern conception of Primarchs, right down to them being giant sized. And definitely think they should mostly be in the deep past or lost to the madness of the Warp and not walking around the 40K setting like they are, yuck.
But they're a cool idea and in the Heresy they have their place.
I almost bought the HH Guilliman model when it came out . . . Then I saw how big it was and lost interest.
Same with the current Abaddon model. I've got my 2nd ed Abby and he looks great with his 2nd ed Terminator cohort, and that's where I'll stay on that!
Favorite: The Lion, Sanguinuis, and Jaghatai Khan.
I have some problems with many of the Traitor Primarchs turning on the Emperor for stupid reasons. It's going to influence my perception of them a lot. My least favorite Primarchs are Curze (what a complete dumbass), Fulgrim (who started out strong but then character assassination kicked in), and Mortarion (way too many daddy issues).
Got a few I like, but I'll second I hate the being literal giants and being individually tough as tanks etc.
Alpharius/Omegon - I just like the sneaky aspects of them and their focus on sabotage and stealth. Bonus points as in if memory serves they are about normal space marine sized.
Guilliman - However boring Space Taxes are, getting them done and organized is how you actually succeed in the long term. I'm a sucker for the logistical mastermind archetype and he kind of falls straight into it.
Fulgrim - Snakeboy sexy. That is all.
Runnerups would probably be Dorn and Perturabo - though with them we get to the point of memes taking things over a bit for me as I just think of one as stoic and having a great beard and the other as a petty manchild who is so edgy he is liable to cut himself on it.
Loyalist: Jaghatai. He comes across as relatively reasonable and level-headed compared to other primarchs, and his longing for a simple existence makes him relatively relatable. All while having a cool prim world aesthetic. He's like Russ but more open-minded and chill.
Traitors: Toss up between Magnus and the twins. Any story featuring the twins is going to involve the sort of sneaky tricksy nonsense I'm a sucker for; it's fun to see marines coming up with unconventional solutions rather than just boltering everything in their path. But ultimately, GW's desire to leave everything ambiguous with the twins means that they don't get to have as much character as they otherwise would. What personality we see from them is fun, but at the end of the day we don't really know what drives them, what actually happened to them, etc.
Magnus has his unflattering moments, but those kind of serve to round out his character. He starts the HH novels as being a proponent for nurturing humanity's psychic development (which is pretty cool to think about in its own right), and his decision at the end of Fury of Magnus was actually a really cool moment that made him even more likable.
Basically, Magnus is prone to being so far up his wizard hat that he can become sort of boringly unknowable. But any time we catch a glimpse of his interests and motivations beyond "vague cosmic magic nonsense," those motivations tend to be pretty compelling. And you get all of that on top of the tragedies of his legion, his appreciation for the preservation and collection of lore, and the unconventional tactics opened up by the use of psychic powers.
Daia T'Nara wrote: I mean obviously it's Fulgrim, there's seventeen male power archetypes, two no-shows, and a tragic Renaissance subtextual queer girl autobiography, the only thing missing is a catgirl BFF/secret crush. But setting aside anyone who ticks so many boxes it's basically cheating, I've always been quite fond of Rogal Dorn. I'm not up to speed on all the current lore (I still kind of dwell in the Rogue Trader-to-Third era and treat any updates as just unreliable narrators at work) but he's always struck me as kind of '*looks at world* "god dammit... Alright let's get to work"' and I respect that.
I came to this thread to give my thoughts but looks like we share exactly the same opinions when it comes to Primarchs! You've summarised the appeal for both Fulgrim & Dorn quite well so thanks for saving me the trouble
Hobbit wrote: So I’ve seen a few threads discussing the worst primarch, and all the flaws and bad things about the primarchs, so I think it is time for some primarch positivity Who is everyones favourite primarch, and for what reasons?
Also if this thread has already been done please do not hesitate to correct me
I don't know about favorite primarch, but I have favorite moments for primarchs:
When Russ and Angron go to town, Russ trying to prove a point then having to retreat because the point couldn't be made.
When Gulliman has an inner monologue - often when diagnosing his own failure/shortcoming
What I'd LIKE to see are a few short stories or vignettes about the returned Primarchs and their "Numer One Son" i.e. their First Captain from back then and how they fit together today for the fallen Primarchs, or The newly returned Loyalists and their current Chapter Master(s). Too many of the Chaos Legions just rinse and repeat the HH/Oedipal trope. Son Falls, Dad Falls, Son tries to replace Dad. Lets get some variety there. Son Falls, Dad Falls, Dad THINKS Son is trying to replace him. Son Falls, Dad Falls, They Fall Out. They at least fake grudging respect and work together well. Add in some Lion/Azrael (and potentially other Unforgiven) and Guilliman/Calgar meetings where they actually spend (more) time with each other (than Hey You're doing fine, but I'm not going to communicate it very well so you're going to feel inadequate but I won't really realize it). Let Azrael and the Lion have a knock down drag out debate on The Fallen. Have Calgar come up with a better plan than Gulliman. Mostly have them get some sort of conflict and work it out in a way that tells us how all these upheavals are going to shake out in the new Imperium. Of course, included in that would also be a Gulliman/Lion meeting as they figure out how they're going to coexist.
Hobbit wrote: So I’ve seen a few threads discussing the worst primarch, and all the flaws and bad things about the primarchs, so I think it is time for some primarch positivity Who is everyones favourite primarch, and for what reasons?
Also if this thread has already been done please do not hesitate to correct me
I don't know about favorite primarch, but I have favorite moments for primarchs:
When Russ and Angron go to town, Russ trying to prove a point then having to retreat because the point couldn't be made.
When Gulliman has an inner monologue - often when diagnosing his own failure/shortcoming
What I'd LIKE to see are a few short stories or vignettes about the returned Primarchs and their "Numer One Son" i.e. their First Captain from back then and how they fit together today for the fallen Primarchs, or The newly returned Loyalists and their current Chapter Master(s). Too many of the Chaos Legions just rinse and repeat the HH/Oedipal trope. Son Falls, Dad Falls, Son tries to replace Dad. Lets get some variety there. Son Falls, Dad Falls, Dad THINKS Son is trying to replace him. Son Falls, Dad Falls, They Fall Out. They at least fake grudging respect and work together well. Add in some Lion/Azrael (and potentially other Unforgiven) and Guilliman/Calgar meetings where they actually spend (more) time with each other (than Hey You're doing fine, but I'm not going to communicate it very well so you're going to feel inadequate but I won't really realize it). Let Azrael and the Lion have a knock down drag out debate on The Fallen. Have Calgar come up with a better plan than Gulliman. Mostly have them get some sort of conflict and work it out in a way that tells us how all these upheavals are going to shake out in the new Imperium. Of course, included in that would also be a Gulliman/Lion meeting as they figure out how they're going to coexist.
Some of those are there for the traitor primarchs- Ahriman is literally banished from the Thousand Sons and Typhus and Mortarion have a very frosty relationship.
Hobbit wrote: So I’ve seen a few threads discussing the worst primarch, and all the flaws and bad things about the primarchs, so I think it is time for some primarch positivity Who is everyones favourite primarch, and for what reasons?
Also if this thread has already been done please do not hesitate to correct me
I don't know about favorite primarch, but I have favorite moments for primarchs:
When Russ and Angron go to town, Russ trying to prove a point then having to retreat because the point couldn't be made.
When Gulliman has an inner monologue - often when diagnosing his own failure/shortcoming
What I'd LIKE to see are a few short stories or vignettes about the returned Primarchs and their "Numer One Son" i.e. their First Captain from back then and how they fit together today for the fallen Primarchs, or The newly returned Loyalists and their current Chapter Master(s). Too many of the Chaos Legions just rinse and repeat the HH/Oedipal trope. Son Falls, Dad Falls, Son tries to replace Dad. Lets get some variety there. Son Falls, Dad Falls, Dad THINKS Son is trying to replace him. Son Falls, Dad Falls, They Fall Out. They at least fake grudging respect and work together well. Add in some Lion/Azrael (and potentially other Unforgiven) and Guilliman/Calgar meetings where they actually spend (more) time with each other (than Hey You're doing fine, but I'm not going to communicate it very well so you're going to feel inadequate but I won't really realize it). Let Azrael and the Lion have a knock down drag out debate on The Fallen. Have Calgar come up with a better plan than Gulliman. Mostly have them get some sort of conflict and work it out in a way that tells us how all these upheavals are going to shake out in the new Imperium. Of course, included in that would also be a Gulliman/Lion meeting as they figure out how they're going to coexist.
Some of those are there for the traitor primarchs- Ahriman is literally banished from the Thousand Sons and Typhus and Mortarion have a very frosty relationship.
That was a lot of my point - Many of the Traitor Legions got a rehashed Imperium-writ-large fluff treatment. The "Father gets betrayed by his first son" thing. They went to that well a little too often. Its time to update/retcon that into something with a little variety. A little Prodigal Son Returns and so on. Now that the Primarchs are returning - And hopefully ALL the Primarchs (Or something Primarch Adjacent like Mystic Rage Coalescing into Sanguining, or Vulkan's final creation the Ferrus Mannus Dread) not just the main few - Its going to upset the heirarchy of the universe. Use that to rewrite some of the fluff - especially the Heretic fluff desperately in need of Variety - plus advancing the universe without changing anything strategically. And for me, that means adding another Loyalist Primarch so they're even. 3 Chaos Primarchs can't take over the Imperium by having two of them tie up Gulliman and Johnson while the third takes down Terra not being an option because of internecine squabbling between the 3 is pretty weak plot armor.
Considering the selfish attitudes and outright hate between some of the traitor primarchs I've always found it reasonable that they couldn't reach an agreement anyway.
I've always found it more strange that abbaddon would take over as overlord of chaos and not one of said primarchs, on the contrary.
But loyalist primarchs are good as a thing of the past to me, I never wanted them to return and it was one of the main reason I didn't follow along too much with lore from end of 7th to this day. To much imperial resurgence from it, and it took away this sense of long lost fame and demi gods that Humanity would like to return so much, adding to the decline and despair of the imperium.
I think the traitor primarchs feel above long term goals, they just want to exist and do their thing what ever that might be. They were part of a master plan with a long term goal and when they turned on it they realised how ridiculous it is in the grand context of time. All things have a beginning and an end. Pappa nurgle knows all things turn to dust.
But Abbadon has tried turn his back on the ideas of both the loyalist and traitor primarchs and has some idea of what he wants to do which I think is destroy everything. Chaos. No doubt he knows that once he has destroyed the imperium of man that chaos will turn in on itself as that is its nature.
I've always found the hatred for the Primarchs being taller than Space Marines so charming and goofy. You can really tell who would rather be playing historicals but can't find a player group large enough to do so with opinions like that.
Anyway, among loyalists Guilliman is the only Primarch who isn't functionally ideologically interchangeable with the rest of them. In any way that matters you could swap the personalities of all of them and it'd be the same. I expect this is also true of the Khan but I've not read much about him so can't really comment.
The traitors are much more interesting because they're actually allowed to be ideologically different from one another. Among them Magnus has historically been my favorite but I also like Lorgar and Perturabo.
Void__Dragon wrote: I've always found the hatred for the Primarchs being taller than Space Marines so charming and goofy. You can really tell who would rather be playing historicals but can't find a player group large enough to do so with opinions like that.
Anyway, among loyalists Guilliman is the only Primarch who isn't functionally ideologically interchangeable with the rest of them. In any way that matters you could swap the personalities of all of them and it'd be the same. I expect this is also true of the Khan but I've not read much about him so can't really comment.
The traitors are much more interesting because they're actually allowed to be ideologically different from one another. Among them Magnus has historically been my favorite but I also like Lorgar and Perturabo.
I don't hate that they're larger, but I do enjoy the RetCon problems created by the change - one of the most famous being Calgar weilding the Gauntlets of Ultramar previous worn by Gulliman or Azrael being able to also wear the helmet of a 10 foot tall demi-god.
Void__Dragon wrote: I've always found the hatred for the Primarchs being taller than Space Marines so charming and goofy. You can really tell who would rather be playing historicals but can't find a player group large enough to do so with opinions like that.
Anyway, among loyalists Guilliman is the only Primarch who isn't functionally ideologically interchangeable with the rest of them. In any way that matters you could swap the personalities of all of them and it'd be the same. I expect this is also true of the Khan but I've not read much about him so can't really comment.
The traitors are much more interesting because they're actually allowed to be ideologically different from one another. Among them Magnus has historically been my favorite but I also like Lorgar and Perturabo.
I don't hate that they're larger, but I do enjoy the RetCon problems created by the change - one of the most famous being Calgar weilding the Gauntlets of Ultramar previous worn by Gulliman or Azrael being able to also wear the helmet of a 10 foot tall demi-god.
It would be hilarious if those Primarchs came back and were like "What? I never wore those! Where did you find these bits of shoddy workmanship?"
In 10000 years, can easily imagine such items were misattributed to Primarchs.
Void__Dragon wrote: I've always found the hatred for the Primarchs being taller than Space Marines so charming and goofy. You can really tell who would rather be playing historicals but can't find a player group large enough to do so with opinions like that.
Anyway, among loyalists Guilliman is the only Primarch who isn't functionally ideologically interchangeable with the rest of them. In any way that matters you could swap the personalities of all of them and it'd be the same. I expect this is also true of the Khan but I've not read much about him so can't really comment.
The traitors are much more interesting because they're actually allowed to be ideologically different from one another. Among them Magnus has historically been my favorite but I also like Lorgar and Perturabo.
I don't hate that they're larger, but I do enjoy the RetCon problems created by the change - one of the most famous being Calgar weilding the Gauntlets of Ultramar previous worn by Gulliman or Azrael being able to also wear the helmet of a 10 foot tall demi-god.
It would be hilarious if those Primarchs came back and were like "What? I never wore those! Where did you find these bits of shoddy workmanship?"
In 10000 years, can easily imagine such items were misattributed to Primarchs.
I can believe it when Imperial World Gryphonne XXLVII says they have Sanguinius's Tightey Whiteys. But especially the Primogenitor Chapters will have been with their Primarchs and will have some sort of historical service for their own artifacts be it Gulliman's library, or Bjorn's stories around the campfire etc.
Void__Dragon wrote: I've always found the hatred for the Primarchs being taller than Space Marines so charming and goofy. You can really tell who would rather be playing historicals but can't find a player group large enough to do so with opinions like that.
Anyway, among loyalists Guilliman is the only Primarch who isn't functionally ideologically interchangeable with the rest of them. In any way that matters you could swap the personalities of all of them and it'd be the same. I expect this is also true of the Khan but I've not read much about him so can't really comment.
The traitors are much more interesting because they're actually allowed to be ideologically different from one another. Among them Magnus has historically been my favorite but I also like Lorgar and Perturabo.
I don't hate that they're larger, but I do enjoy the RetCon problems created by the change - one of the most famous being Calgar weilding the Gauntlets of Ultramar previous worn by Gulliman or Azrael being able to also wear the helmet of a 10 foot tall demi-god.
It would be hilarious if those Primarchs came back and were like "What? I never wore those! Where did you find these bits of shoddy workmanship?"
In 10000 years, can easily imagine such items were misattributed to Primarchs.
I can believe it when Imperial World Gryphonne XXLVII says they have Sanguinius's Tightey Whiteys. But especially the Primogenitor Chapters will have been with their Primarchs and will have some sort of historical service for their own artifacts be it Gulliman's library, or Bjorn's stories around the campfire etc.
Eh, 10,000 years is a really long time and the Imperium has been in a state of technological regression. It is extremely possible for records to have been corrupted and legends to have drifted over that kind of time period. There is a very real chance that the High/Low Gothic spoken in the Horus Heresy is substantially different by the time of 40k, so interpreting old records could be rife for all kinds of mistakes in that regard too.
Imagine a record that said something like "Guilliman decreed that he wore these fists.". Says he wore the fists, right? But the previous line could have been lost, where it said something like "Guilliman honoured chapter master Decimus,". All together it clearly says something else:
"Guilliman honoured chapter master Decimus, Guilliman decreed that he wore these fists."
I think it would be very easy for such errors to creep in over 10k years. 10k years is hard to imagine- 10k years ago humanity hadn't invented writing yet and was creating the very first stone structures we are aware of.
Void__Dragon wrote: I've always found the hatred for the Primarchs being taller than Space Marines so charming and goofy. You can really tell who would rather be playing historicals but can't find a player group large enough to do so with opinions like that.
Anyway, among loyalists Guilliman is the only Primarch who isn't functionally ideologically interchangeable with the rest of them. In any way that matters you could swap the personalities of all of them and it'd be the same. I expect this is also true of the Khan but I've not read much about him so can't really comment.
The traitors are much more interesting because they're actually allowed to be ideologically different from one another. Among them Magnus has historically been my favorite but I also like Lorgar and Perturabo.
I don't hate that they're larger, but I do enjoy the RetCon problems created by the change - one of the most famous being Calgar weilding the Gauntlets of Ultramar previous worn by Gulliman or Azrael being able to also wear the helmet of a 10 foot tall demi-god.
Void__Dragon wrote: I've always found the hatred for the Primarchs being taller than Space Marines so charming and goofy. You can really tell who would rather be playing historicals but can't find a player group large enough to do so with opinions like that.
Uh huh. Maybe those who like the big Primarchs hold significant insecurities about their own anatomy.
What a weird assumption. I've never really wanted to play historicals.
Edit: The Primarch being larger also kills some of the mystique around the Emperor recognizing them upon first encounter. In the stories I recall it seemed like an aura or something subtle that maybe others couldn't see directly. But now it's kinda just "The Emperor wisely spotted the 10 foot tall roid-man."
Uh huh. Maybe those who like the big Primarchs hold significant insecurities about their own anatomy.
What a weird assumption. I've never really wanted to play historicals.
Edit: The Primarch being larger also kills some of the mystique around the Emperor recognizing them upon first encounter. In the stories I recall it seemed like an aura or something subtle that maybe others couldn't see directly. But now it's kinda just "The Emperor wisely spotted the 10 foot tall roid-man."
Did you used to believe the Primarchs were smaller than Space Marines?
Did you used to believe the Primarchs were smaller than Space Marines?
Way back in 2nd edition when I first read the fluff? I imagined they were normal to slightly larger sized infants and grew to Space Marine (or Andre the Giant/The Bigshow) sized so they still looked human not mutant. Well Sanguinius still looked Mutated, I guess but not based on size in my early imaginings. And some would have looked slightly different. Mortarian might have looked more like an NBA Center than a gigantic professional wrestler. The Khan maybe like an MLB first baseman, tall but lankier/leaner but not so much as an NBA center. Certainly small enough to ride a large horse. Same with the Lion and his Knightly Orders that rode on horseback.
Did you used to believe the Primarchs were smaller than Space Marines?
I imagined Primarchs as roughly Space Marine sized, in a world where Space Marines weren't huge either. Big sure, but not huge.
The old Leman Russ model was the size of a Space Marine, neither of whom were notably bigger than a human model.
For the clarity of those reading, Leman Russ the Primarch, not the considerably larger Leman Russ the tank released around the same era
Are we sure Leman Russ the Tank is larger than Leman Russ the Primarch? If you read the stories now, the Primarchs are playing soccer with Land Raiders... Oh Oh, I get it...
Hmm. At the risk of hijacking the thread, does anyone else feel that it might have been better to *not* make the primarchs literal giants?
Like, if the primarchs were each just the size of a human, it would:
* Help make them feel like "exemplars" or possible futures of humanity rather than being a totally different species.
* Arguably make them even more eerie. Instead of being scary in the way a bear or T-rex is scary, they trip your uncanny valley by being almost human. Especially when they then perform feats of superhuman strength and speed right in front of you. It's like suddenly realizing that the guy you were talking to has been General Zod the whole time.
* Be better able to blend in with their adoptive communities. This also means we'd be less confused about Corax, Alpharius, and Kurze successfully sneaking around unnoticed. And then there's that discussion of where the Khan found a horse that was big enough to ride...
* Space marines would be much more obviously killing machines. Right now, giant primarchs creates this weird... pokemon evolution/Invader Zim (the tallest) thing, where your height is a direct indiator of how strong and highly-ranked you are. Which in addition to being a bit goofy also means that marines feel more like actual children. They're literally smaller than their dads. If you have marines walking around head and shoulders above their gene daddies, it marks them out as living weapons, designed for war; not as creatures meant to "fit in" under their primarchs.
The Armies of the Imperium basically turned into Orks, where size is indicative of power level/rank. Primarchs are bigger than Custodes are bigger than Primaris are bigger than TrueMarines are bigger than humans.
Not to mention the fact that I don't think they (Primarchs) can ride in the transports their troops ride in.
Wyldhunt wrote: Hmm. At the risk of hijacking the thread, does anyone else feel that it might have been better to *not* make the primarchs literal giants?
Like, if the primarchs were each just the size of a human, it would:
* Help make them feel like "exemplars" or possible futures of humanity rather than being a totally different species.
* Arguably make them even more eerie. Instead of being scary in the way a bear or T-rex is scary, they trip your uncanny valley by being almost human. Especially when they then perform feats of superhuman strength and speed right in front of you. It's like suddenly realizing that the guy you were talking to has been General Zod the whole time.
* Be better able to blend in with their adoptive communities. This also means we'd be less confused about Corax, Alpharius, and Kurze successfully sneaking around unnoticed. And then there's that discussion of where the Khan found a horse that was big enough to ride...
* Space marines would be much more obviously killing machines. Right now, giant primarchs creates this weird... pokemon evolution/Invader Zim (the tallest) thing, where your height is a direct indiator of how strong and highly-ranked you are. Which in addition to being a bit goofy also means that marines feel more like actual children. They're literally smaller than their dads. If you have marines walking around head and shoulders above their gene daddies, it marks them out as living weapons, designed for war; not as creatures meant to "fit in" under their primarchs.
There are arguments for both sides. I think the Primarchs are generally supposed to be tragic figures. Their supernatural size is just another mechanic to set them apart and make them "lonely" - only really belonging among the other 17. I also think you're halfway there. Primarchs were supersized because MMO bosses are supersized. When's the last time you saw a man-sized raid boss without a target switch mechanic to giant pets/creations? Game Designers did not learn the Yoda lesson. Not the "Judge me by my size do you" lesson, but the actual visual lesson about it when he starts jumping 20 feet in all directions while fighting Dooku. Some of that is understandable because nobody wants to see an entire raid rage quit after trying to track down a superfast Yoda sized thing among all the sparkly flashy particle effects you're paying for the game in order to see. But the tabletop definitely doesn't have particle effects.
Plus its the next level ret-con that almost nobody ever gets to: The Primarchs are 10 feet tall. The Emperor standing next to Horus is about the same height. So the Emperor is 10 feet tall. Without the genetic manipulation. Unless he was his own test subject and grew 10 feet tall while he was working on them.
The emperor is stated, IIRC, to have taken up the role of several historical figures to guide mankind so he may just as well have grown himself rather than always having been that tall
The Emperor is canonically a psyker of such immense power that he can change how he appears to others at will, and very few individuals can see his true form. Magnus is similar.
On the Lion Helm? Worth keeping in mind that Primarchs are described as having regular human proportions. But their sons are described as being almost grotesque of proportion, like Gigantism.
So it is entirely possible the size difference for helmets just isn’t especially significant, as a Space Marine’s bonce is disproportionately large.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: On the Lion Helm? Worth keeping in mind that Primarchs are described as having regular human proportions. But their sons are described as being almost grotesque of proportion, like Gigantism.
So it is entirely possible the size difference for helmets just isn’t especially significant, as a Space Marine’s bonce is disproportionately large.
I could buy it on the circumference Hat Size, but overall head height, I'm still not convinced. Plus, at a certain point fluff that's been retconned this often is bound to fail, and in this case it's funny.
Alpharius and omegon were the same size as astartes weren’t they? But then they were never to be know. I think primarchs should have been made the same size as astartes.
Astartes were only made in a response to the primarchs going missing. I think having 20 warriors of astartes proportions would have made them standout amongst humanity. But GW made them standout against space marines which I don’t like I don’t think.
Alpharius and Omegon were smaller but then their Legion was also slightly taller than the average Astartes in general.
Add in the penchant for theatre where commanders would take the name "Alpharius" and often even wore the face of their Primarch, and it gets even more difficult to tell what is true.
Which is exactly how the Legion liked it.
Gert wrote: Just to point out, the Lion Helm Azrael wears is only rumoured to have been worn by the Primarch.
If it has been rumoured to, then logic says it can fit both his head and Azrael's, so either they're both roughly the same proportions, or one of them has got a head of bad proportions.
Doesn't make a lot of sense if primarchs are actually giants compared too the average marine, although I suppose 40k being what it is it doesn't always need to make sense.
Or you're taking things literally rather than as Chapter legend.
We as outside viewers can go "Yeah that's not going to be a helm that the Lion wore because it's too small" but until now, the Primarchs had been missing for ten thousand years and the only "living" Astartes that can even remember his Primarch was Bjorn and he's barely lucid as it is.
How many stories are there of people of massive or monstrous size in the various mythologies and legends in current human history? How about the various items said to have been held, wielded, or worn by people throughout the ages? How many of those stories are real and how many are made up? Did Robert the Bruce actually see the spider try to spin its web? Probably not but it makes a damn good story.
Gert wrote: Or you're taking things literally rather than as Chapter legend.
We as outside viewers can go "Yeah that's not going to be a helm that the Lion wore because it's too small" but until now, the Primarchs had been missing for ten thousand years and the only "living" Astartes that can even remember his Primarch was Bjorn and he's barely lucid as it is.
How many stories are there of people of massive or monstrous size in the various mythologies and legends in current human history? How about the various items said to have been held, wielded, or worn by people throughout the ages? How many of those stories are real and how many are made up? Did Robert the Bruce actually see the spider try to spin its web? Probably not but it makes a damn good story.
Plus I mean, the dark freakin angels of all people, the ones hellbend on living in the past and pursuing the same quest for all that time, and where information is filtered at a fair few levels, the upper echelon may well have some documentation about their gene daddy.
Yes dealing with a fictional universe the reader is supposed to voluntarily surrender his common sense to go along with the story, but sometimes it's a tad too much and it comes scratching back.
Plus I mean, the dark freakin angels of all people, the ones hellbend on living in the past and pursuing the same quest for all that time, and where information is filtered at a fair few levels, the upper echelon may well have some documentation about their gene daddy.
Yes dealing with a fictional universe the reader is supposed to voluntarily surrender his common sense to go along with the story, but sometimes it's a tad too much and it comes scratching back.
Meh. I'm pretty sure none of it was intentional. I'm pretty sure they didn't figure this stuff out first, and release it second, so they're kinda stuck in a couple places where they made some throw-away fluff like "this helmet once belonged to the Lion" before they figured out The Lion was 9'6" tall. So I take a minute to feel bad for them, and then snicker at the holes.
How many people got to see RG in stasis outside of the denizens of the planet and some pilgrims. Information doesn't flow freely through the galaxy like we have with the internet so people can’t freely educate themselves against the dogma drilled into them.
Also the lion helm could have been re forged. But I’ll be honest I always thought that he didn’t wear it and the watcher in the dark just carried it around close to him for the force field.
Reforging would bring us to the collector's discussion about at what level of new or modification it is no longer the actual object but let us not go into that unending tangent
Breton wrote: Gulliman was sitting in stasis on Macragge.
A couple of points on that:
- He is 1 of 9 Loyalist Primarchs who were not exact copies of each other. The helm of one may not fit the head of another. Some don't even have heads after all.
- Guilliman was sitting on a raised podium with a stasis field obscuring the view. Exact measurements aren't really going to be possible and the Chapters have more pressing matters than to go about measuring who's dad was bigger.
Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote: Plus I mean, the dark freakin angels of all people, the ones hellbend on living in the past and pursuing the same quest for all that time, and where information is filtered at a fair few levels, the upper echelon may well have some documentation about their gene daddy.
You mean the Dark Angels who were notorious for their secrets even before the disappearance of the Lion and who mindwipe their own Astartes and kill outsiders who learn too much?
Yes, originally the Lion was not as large as he is in the background added with the Horus Heresy series. However, there is plenty of in-universe reasoning for why the Chapter still absolutely believes the helm was his.
I mean can you say for certainty how tall, wide, or broad your great-grandfather was? Throw in 10k years of secretiveness, war, tragedy, and losses, and the fact the Chapter remembers their Primarchs actual name is a shock, and even then they call him "The Lion" more than Lion'el Jonson.
Gert wrote: We as outside viewers can go "Yeah that's not going to be a helm that the Lion wore because it's too small" but until now, the Primarchs had been missing for ten thousand years and the only "living" Astartes that can even remember his Primarch was Bjorn and he's barely lucid as it is.
Where are you getting "barely lucid" from as a description of Bjorn?
Got an actual source for the latter part? Last I checked his background material, he didn't have any major cognitive issues once he'd adjusted to being brought out of stasis again.
mrFickle wrote: How many people got to see RG in stasis outside of the denizens of the planet and some pilgrims. Information doesn't flow freely through the galaxy like we have with the internet so people can’t freely educate themselves against the dogma drilled into them.
Also the lion helm could have been re forged. But I’ll be honest I always thought that he didn’t wear it and the watcher in the dark just carried it around close to him for the force field.
I believe that was the case for the original model, though funnily enough the current one does let you have the option.
As for your question:
The Shrine of Guilliman built to contain his body was one of the most holy places in the entire Imperium, and one which welcomed millions of pilgrims every year.
He was in Stasis for at least 10,000 years, "millions" means at least 2 so I'd say a floor of 20,000,000,000. And that's not counting all the Pict Screens, Remebrancer holos, and whatever else GW makes up as a representation of futuristic but still basically Television.
Dysartes wrote: Got an actual source for the latter part? Last I checked his background material, he didn't have any major cognitive issues once he'd adjusted to being brought out of stasis again.
That's Dreadnoughts as a whole. Bjorn is kept in stasis and is only awoken once every thousand years because he's a ten-thousand-year-old dreadnought. Just because he's Bjorn doesn't mean he stops having all the same problems as any other Dreadnought.
Dysartes wrote: Got an actual source for the latter part? Last I checked his background material, he didn't have any major cognitive issues once he'd adjusted to being brought out of stasis again.
That's Dreadnoughts as a whole. Bjorn is kept in stasis and is only awoken once every thousand years because he's a ten-thousand-year-old dreadnought. Just because he's Bjorn doesn't mean he stops having all the same problems as any other Dreadnought.
The only problems with degradation I'm aware of with Dreads I'm aware of are Redemptor Dreads destroying the pilot over time (may also be a thing for certain Heresy chassis too), and Black Rage on some Blood Angels (& successor) dreads. I've never seen anything about normal Dreadnoughts dealing with cognitive problems over time.
Again, I ask you - can you cite your source for this claim?
Dysartes wrote: Got an actual source for the latter part? Last I checked his background material, he didn't have any major cognitive issues once he'd adjusted to being brought out of stasis again.
That's Dreadnoughts as a whole. Bjorn is kept in stasis and is only awoken once every thousand years because he's a ten-thousand-year-old dreadnought. Just because he's Bjorn doesn't mean he stops having all the same problems as any other Dreadnought.
The only problems with degradation I'm aware of with Dreads I'm aware of are Redemptor Dreads destroying the pilot over time (may also be a thing for certain Heresy chassis too), and Black Rage on some Blood Angels (& successor) dreads. I've never seen anything about normal Dreadnoughts dealing with cognitive problems over time.
Again, I ask you - can you cite your source for this claim?
Leviathans eventually kill their occupants, apparently. Never heard anything about Deredeos. Contemptors are apparently such a stable platform that even "current" 40k Chaos Contemptors don't suffer from the madness that most other Chaos dreadnoughts are usually afflicted by.
It’s long established some Dreadnought occupants can’t be roused from their sleep. I don’t think it’s tied to a specific chassis or sarcophagus type. Just seems to be an inevitable consequence of the underlying technology, somewhere along the line.
Probably worth keeping in mind it seems very doubtful any Dreadnought was ever designed to last forever.
Dysartes wrote: The only problems with degradation I'm aware of with Dreads I'm aware of are Redemptor Dreads destroying the pilot over time (may also be a thing for certain Heresy chassis too), and Black Rage on some Blood Angels (& successor) dreads. I've never seen anything about normal Dreadnoughts dealing with cognitive problems over time.
Again, I ask you - can you cite your source for this claim?
Carcharadons: The Outer Dark - The two Dreadnoughts deployed during the conflict on Piety V are both kept in chains and when unleashed can only vocalise screams of pain and rage.
Iron Warrior - Venerable Brother Altarion routinely forgets those who serve with him, referring to them as Brothers long dead.
Word Bearer's Omnibus - The Warmonger (Sol Talgron) often drifts into memories of the Heresy believing himself to be a warrior of flesh and blood.
Know No Fear - Dreadnoughts are placed into stasis to manage the physical and psychological pain of being put in a Sarcophagus.
The whole point of Dreadnoughts going into stasis isn't to keep them from being damaged, it's to prevent them from losing their sanity at being trapped in a metal box for eternity. This isn't new lore, it's been in 40k for years.
AcTuAlLy? Original Dreadnoughts were battle suits, where the occupant could freely enter and exit between battles.
However, Dreadnought Psychosis, where the wearer becomes so used to the power granted by the suit, slowly went insane and lost faculties.
But that didn’t last terribly long. I’ll need to go delve into my Rogue Trader books to try to get a rough idea as to when they became the Dreadnoughts we all know and love today.
Dysartes wrote: Got an actual source for the latter part? Last I checked his background material, he didn't have any major cognitive issues once he'd adjusted to being brought out of stasis again.
That's Dreadnoughts as a whole. Bjorn is kept in stasis and is only awoken once every thousand years because he's a ten-thousand-year-old dreadnought. Just because he's Bjorn doesn't mean he stops having all the same problems as any other Dreadnought.
I can't tell you the book or the page, but I imagine others can once I describe what I remember. Bjorn gets hauled out of Stasis pretty religiously once a (Time Period) to tell the young ones all the Sagas and stories. In the story this comes from they do a little first person for Bjorn as well.
AcTuAlLy? Original Dreadnoughts were battle suits, where the occupant could freely enter and exit between battles.
However, Dreadnought Psychosis, where the wearer becomes so used to the power granted by the suit, slowly went insane and lost faculties.
But that didn’t last terribly long. I’ll need to go delve into my Rogue Trader books to try to get a rough idea as to when they became the Dreadnoughts we all know and love today.
Thanks Doc for pointing out to the origins
As far as I remember mostly from codices dreads are also used as advisors in a fair few chapters as they have got more experience and knowledge than most flesh and bone brothers.
Dysartes wrote: The only problems with degradation I'm aware of with Dreads I'm aware of are Redemptor Dreads destroying the pilot over time (may also be a thing for certain Heresy chassis too), and Black Rage on some Blood Angels (& successor) dreads. I've never seen anything about normal Dreadnoughts dealing with cognitive problems over time.
Again, I ask you - can you cite your source for this claim?
Carcharadons: The Outer Dark - The two Dreadnoughts deployed during the conflict on Piety V are both kept in chains and when unleashed can only vocalise screams of pain and rage.
Iron Warrior - Venerable Brother Altarion routinely forgets those who serve with him, referring to them as Brothers long dead.
Word Bearer's Omnibus - The Warmonger (Sol Talgron) often drifts into memories of the Heresy believing himself to be a warrior of flesh and blood.
Know No Fear - Dreadnoughts are placed into stasis to manage the physical and psychological pain of being put in a Sarcophagus.
The whole point of Dreadnoughts going into stasis isn't to keep them from being damaged, it's to prevent them from losing their sanity at being trapped in a metal box for eternity. This isn't new lore, it's been in 40k for years.
^It looks like many of those examples are of Chaos Dreadnoughts. Those have a very different existence than loyalist Dreadnoughts.
From 2nd edition Chaos Space Marine codex:
"Among Imperial Space Marines it is considered a great honor for a mortally wounded warrior to be interred inside the armored sarcophagus of a Dreadnought so that he can continue to serve the Emperor. Chaos Marines consider being consigned to a Dreadnought a living death, a torture or punishment from the dark gods of Chaos. [. . . ] As a result, most Chaos Dreadnoughts are completely psychotic." The same distinction is made in the 8th edition CSM codex.
It is also noted throughout many codexes that loyalist Dreadnoughts are revered by their brothers, "whose advice is sought by initiate and Chapter Master alike. It is not uncommon for Dreadnoughts to serve as members of the Chapter Council, lending wisdom to strategy as they do fury on the battlefield." Codex SM, 5th edition. I don't imagine they are sought for wisdom while simultaneously being insane. If they are kept in stasis so that they don't go insane . . . then it follows that loyalist dreadnoughts are, by and large, sane. They chaos ones? Yeah those ones are kept in chains.
Dysartes wrote: Got an actual source for the latter part? Last I checked his background material, he didn't have any major cognitive issues once he'd adjusted to being brought out of stasis again.
That's Dreadnoughts as a whole. Bjorn is kept in stasis and is only awoken once every thousand years because he's a ten-thousand-year-old dreadnought. Just because he's Bjorn doesn't mean he stops having all the same problems as any other Dreadnought.
I can't tell you the book or the page, but I imagine others can once I describe what I remember. Bjorn gets hauled out of Stasis pretty religiously once a (Time Period) to tell the young ones all the Sagas and stories. In the story this comes from they do a little first person for Bjorn as well.
Here's the one from Space Wolf Codex 2nd ed. pg 16:
Spoiler:
Bjorn does not seem "barely lucid". He sometimes questions memories, but that's not "insane".
In order they are Carcharadon, Ultramarine, Word Bearer and Ultramarine.
Those were just the books I had to hand that I remembered from. I could go searching through my library of like 200 books but I also need to work and eat.
^Well I suppose I'll just repeat my general opinion about the reliability of Black Library for sources, in that it's often not a great source to draw conclusions from.
Loyalist Dreadnoughts being kept in chains and only being able to scream in rage and pain does not seem to map well to the typical "Dreadnought experience".
So Dreadnoughts do indeed lose their faculties over time, but I think the rate of such varies by the individual. Obviously Chapters like the Flesh Tearers have their Dreadnoughts fall to the Black Rage rapidly, whereas Bjorn is still relatively* sharp after 10k years.
Old Dreadnoughts tend to spend more and more time in stasis to protect their fraying minds. Honestly, it isn't surprising. The human mind just hasn't evolved to hold memories over thousands of years, and Space Marines have improved memory over basic humans. That quantity of memories must become quite the burden over the centuries, especially if they are disjointed through time by the periods in stasis. Plus, decay will probably make the memories increasingly patchy.
*Sharp for a bloke who has lived 10,000 years. The fact he is still able to advise a Chapter containing such mighty and experienced heroes as the 700 year old Grimnar suggests he is still a very capable thinker once warmed up, and he is certainly not a liability on the battlefield. Bjorn has been a HQ choice for a reason.
Insectum7 wrote: ^Well I suppose I'll just repeat my general opinion about the reliability of Black Library for sources, in that it's often not a great source to draw conclusions from.
Loyalist Dreadnoughts being kept in chains and only being able to scream in rage and pain does not seem to map well to the typical "Dreadnought experience".
Forgetting names? I'm fine with that.
So what you're saying is I'm right but you don't want to admit it? Ok dude.
I never said insane, I said barely lucid and then clarified my statement.
You're picking on words when multiple sources have shown that Dreadnoughts are not a reliable source of information concerning events that occurred hundreds if not thousands of years before.
I mean, when Index Astartes states that Dreadnoughts start to lose their grip on reality and spend more and more time in stasis to slow this, I think it is pretty reasonable to assume that the stasis helps stop them from going insane.
The most basic definition for psychosis is losing touch with reality. For those that don't know, psychosis isn't just the bouncing off the wall type and certainly isn't just becoming a murderous individual (that is an exceptionally rare form).
Barely lucid means someone is struggling to remember things but can still recover.
Insanity is when they've lost hold of reality as some Dreadnoughts do and curing insanity is nigh impossible.
It's a scale not an on/off switch.
The examples I gave show this scale.
Altarion shows the earlier issues found with Dreadnoughts where they mix up events and people from their memories.
The Warmonger is further along where he sometimes slips into the past but can still be brought back to the present.
The Carcharadon Dreadnoughts are the final product, beings of rage and hatred born of eternal pain and suffering. Useful as weapons and nothing more.
Most Dreadnoughts won't reach that final stage because they inevitably get killed before then being warmachines. In the same way that an Astartes is functionally nigh immortal due to their decreased aging and regenerative abilities but never get to test that because they die in battle.
Just because something is rare, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
Insectum7 wrote: ^Well I suppose I'll just repeat my general opinion about the reliability of Black Library for sources, in that it's often not a great source to draw conclusions from.
Loyalist Dreadnoughts being kept in chains and only being able to scream in rage and pain does not seem to map well to the typical "Dreadnought experience".
Forgetting names? I'm fine with that.
So what you're saying is I'm right but you don't want to admit it? Ok dude.
No, I'm saying that BL isn't a great source because it's brought us 12' tall Berzerkers, Marines marching at 60 mph, Chimeras being cut in half with Lughtning Claws and Imperial Assassins struggling to take down a Marine. So when I hear about loyalist dreadnoughts being chained up and only being able to scream, I toss it in the junk pile next to the rest of it.
Gert wrote: Barely lucid means someone is struggling to remember things but can still recover.
I do not think that word means what you think it means. Either way I've posted a source for Bjorn and he seems plenty aware of his surroundings, and appears to have clear memories involving the Primarch.
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Haighus wrote: I mean, when Index Astartes states that Dreadnoughts start to lose their grip on reality and spend more and more time in stasis to slow this, I think it is pretty reasonable to assume that the stasis helps stop them from going insane.
The most basic definition for psychosis is losing touch with reality. For those that don't know, psychosis isn't just the bouncing off the wall type and certainly isn't just becoming a murderous individual (that is an exceptionally rare form).
Right, but the same article cites Bjorn as being exceptionally old, and we have a story where Bjorn is nowhere near insane either. It's more like he would just rather not be there. I think one could interpret "grip on the material world inevitably begins to slip" as a sort of disinterest, rather than a psychosis. We've also got a history where the Venerable Dreadnoughts have a higher WS and BS than the typical Dread. If they can do battle effectively, lead troops and take part in war councils, I question the validity of the term "psychosis".
- Guilliman was sitting on a raised podium with a stasis field obscuring the view. Exact measurements aren't really going to be possible and the Chapters have more pressing matters than to go about measuring who's dad was bigger.
Source for stasis fields obscuring views, otherwise it's just a matter of trigonometry. And Guilliman was one of the most famous and visited shrines in the Imperium, I'm sure it's seen a lot of observation for piety, study and artwork.
Haighus wrote: I mean, when Index Astartes states that Dreadnoughts start to lose their grip on reality and spend more and more time in stasis to slow this, I think it is pretty reasonable to assume that the stasis helps stop them from going insane.
The most basic definition for psychosis is losing touch with reality. For those that don't know, psychosis isn't just the bouncing off the wall type and certainly isn't just becoming a murderous individual (that is an exceptionally rare form).
Right, but the same article cites Bjorn as being exceptionally old, and we have a story where Bjorn is nowhere near insane either. It's more like he would just rather not be there. I think one could interpret "grip on the material world inevitably begins to slip" as a sort of disinterest, rather than a psychosis. We've also got a history where the Venerable Dreadnoughts have a higher WS and BS than the typical Dread. If they can do battle effectively, lead troops and take part in war councils, I question the validity of the term "psychosis".
I think there are a number of things at play here. Firstly, different individuals are almost certainly going to deteriorate at different rates, just like actual humans. Some humans are sharp at 100, others have dementia in their 50's. There is a spectrum. Bjorn is always noted as exceptional, the oldest known dreadnought.
Secondly, Bjorn is routinely woken once every thousand years. He is only woken otherwise for truly exceptional battles, like serious assaults on the Fang. He has essentially been stopped in time to prevent further deterioration, which suggests even he is on the cusp of serious degeneration. Bjorn served routinely as a dreadnought for just 300 years before he started spending more and more time in stasis. It isn't clear at which point a dreadnought is considered venerable and probably has no hard and fast rule, but I get the Impression any dreadnought >1000 years old is very rare, and Bjorn sleeps that long. He has probably only been awake a couple of dozen times in ~9000 years.
Thirdly, psychosis can occur from low mood states like severe depression, and I think that is a far more likely type for most chapters than the raging murderer type some dreadnoughts are prone to (particularly Blood Angels and successors). I suspect that without stasis sleep, most dreadnoughts would slip into a sort of irreversible catatonia eventually and fully withdraw from the real world. It seems that would likely be within a few centuries of continuous activity based on when dreadnoughts typically seem to withdraw from regular service and spend more time in stasis. To be clear, I think the time in stasis pauses this process and prevents it progressing, preserving these great heroes of the Chapter until they are needed.
Insectum7 wrote: No, I'm saying that BL isn't a great source because it's brought us 12' tall Berzerkers, Marines marching at 60 mph, Chimeras being cut in half with Lughtning Claws and Imperial Assassins struggling to take down a Marine. So when I hear about loyalist dreadnoughts being chained up and only being able to scream, I toss it in the junk pile next to the rest of it.
Sounds a lot like "I don't like it so it doesn't count". I'm not picking single examples, I'm showing you multiple examples across a range of books set at different points in time and written years apart by different authors that all say the same thing. At no point have I claimed that all Dreadnoughts are at the same level as the Carcharadon examples while you have claimed the concept of Dreadnoughts going senile or losing their mental faculties is non-existent. Even after you were shown a specific example from Index Astartes you're still claiming it doesn't exist. You cherry pick examples that don't suit your narrative rather than taking them as a whole.
Insectum7 wrote: No, I'm saying that BL isn't a great source because it's brought us 12' tall Berzerkers, Marines marching at 60 mph, Chimeras being cut in half with Lughtning Claws and Imperial Assassins struggling to take down a Marine. So when I hear about loyalist dreadnoughts being chained up and only being able to scream, I toss it in the junk pile next to the rest of it.
Sounds a lot like "I don't like it so it doesn't count". I'm not picking single examples, I'm showing you multiple examples across a range of books set at different points in time and written years apart by different authors that all say the same thing.
At no point have I claimed that all Dreadnoughts are at the same level as the Carcharadon examples while you have claimed the concept of Dreadnoughts going senile or losing their mental faculties is non-existent. Even after you were shown a specific example from Index Astartes you're still claiming it doesn't exist.
You cherry pick examples that don't suit your narrative rather than taking them as a whole. You're a joke.
I said forgetfulness is fine. I'm cool with that. Mentally distant I'm also on board with. Full blown raging lunatic, less so.
However, you said "Bjorn is barely lucid" and "more than 5 minutes out stasis he loses his marbles and thinks he's in the Heresy again." for which people asked for sources, and you gave Dreadnoughts who are A: Not Bjorn, and B: From a source which is historically known for "embellishment", shall we say.
In counter, I've given a source actually about Bjorn.
Haighus wrote: I mean, when Index Astartes states that Dreadnoughts start to lose their grip on reality and spend more and more time in stasis to slow this, I think it is pretty reasonable to assume that the stasis helps stop them from going insane.
The most basic definition for psychosis is losing touch with reality. For those that don't know, psychosis isn't just the bouncing off the wall type and certainly isn't just becoming a murderous individual (that is an exceptionally rare form).
Right, but the same article cites Bjorn as being exceptionally old, and we have a story where Bjorn is nowhere near insane either. It's more like he would just rather not be there. I think one could interpret "grip on the material world inevitably begins to slip" as a sort of disinterest, rather than a psychosis. We've also got a history where the Venerable Dreadnoughts have a higher WS and BS than the typical Dread. If they can do battle effectively, lead troops and take part in war councils, I question the validity of the term "psychosis".
I think there are a number of things at play here. Firstly, different individuals are almost certainly going to deteriorate at different rates, just like actual humans. Some humans are sharp at 100, others have dementia in their 50's. There is a spectrum. Bjorn is always noted as exceptional, the oldest known dreadnought.
Secondly, Bjorn is routinely woken once every thousand years. He is only woken otherwise for truly exceptional battles, like serious assaults on the Fang. He has essentially been stopped in time to prevent further deterioration, which suggests even he is on the cusp of serious degeneration. Bjorn served routinely as a dreadnought for just 300 years before he started spending more and more time in stasis. It isn't clear at which point a dreadnought is considered venerable and probably has no hard and fast rule, but I get the Impression any dreadnought >1000 years old is very rare, and Bjorn sleeps that long. He has probably only been awake a couple of dozen times in ~9000 years.
Thirdly, psychosis can occur from low mood states like severe depression, and I think that is a far more likely type for most chapters than the raging murderer type some dreadnoughts are prone to (particularly Blood Angels and successors). I suspect that without stasis sleep, most dreadnoughts would slip into a sort of irreversible catatonia eventually and fully withdraw from the real world. It seems that would likely be within a few centuries of continuous activity based on when dreadnoughts typically seem to withdraw from regular service and spend more time in stasis. To be clear, I think the time in stasis pauses this process and prevents it progressing, preserving these great heroes of the Chapter until they are needed.
So I don't think I ever disagreed with the idea of degradation, but I would humbly suggest that using the term "psychosis" is maybe not the best term. While it might be appropriate in the clinical sense, degeneration feels more apt and is less likely to recieve pushback, especially since the Chaos Dreadnoughts are described as "completely psychotic", in contrast with the often "wise, War Council appropriate" loyalist ones.
Can we introduce "Dreadnought abuse" as a concept here? Like, if a chapter isn't appropriately caring for their Dreadnoughts they might turn into raging lunatics. But given the more common descriptions of Dreadnoughts that scenario seems a very atypical outcome.
Edit: Out of curiosity I googled the relationship between dementia and psychosis:
"Some people with dementia may become aggressive at times and have trouble regulating their emotions. Psychosis can also be a complication of dementia. Psychosis refers to the mental state where someone is not sure what's real or not. It can include paranoid or delusional thoughts as well as hallucinations."
Haighus wrote: I mean, when Index Astartes states that Dreadnoughts start to lose their grip on reality and spend more and more time in stasis to slow this, I think it is pretty reasonable to assume that the stasis helps stop them from going insane.
The most basic definition for psychosis is losing touch with reality. For those that don't know, psychosis isn't just the bouncing off the wall type and certainly isn't just becoming a murderous individual (that is an exceptionally rare form).
Right, but the same article cites Bjorn as being exceptionally old, and we have a story where Bjorn is nowhere near insane either. It's more like he would just rather not be there. I think one could interpret "grip on the material world inevitably begins to slip" as a sort of disinterest, rather than a psychosis. We've also got a history where the Venerable Dreadnoughts have a higher WS and BS than the typical Dread. If they can do battle effectively, lead troops and take part in war councils, I question the validity of the term "psychosis".
I think there are a number of things at play here. Firstly, different individuals are almost certainly going to deteriorate at different rates, just like actual humans. Some humans are sharp at 100, others have dementia in their 50's. There is a spectrum. Bjorn is always noted as exceptional, the oldest known dreadnought.
Secondly, Bjorn is routinely woken once every thousand years. He is only woken otherwise for truly exceptional battles, like serious assaults on the Fang. He has essentially been stopped in time to prevent further deterioration, which suggests even he is on the cusp of serious degeneration. Bjorn served routinely as a dreadnought for just 300 years before he started spending more and more time in stasis. It isn't clear at which point a dreadnought is considered venerable and probably has no hard and fast rule, but I get the Impression any dreadnought >1000 years old is very rare, and Bjorn sleeps that long. He has probably only been awake a couple of dozen times in ~9000 years.
Thirdly, psychosis can occur from low mood states like severe depression, and I think that is a far more likely type for most chapters than the raging murderer type some dreadnoughts are prone to (particularly Blood Angels and successors). I suspect that without stasis sleep, most dreadnoughts would slip into a sort of irreversible catatonia eventually and fully withdraw from the real world. It seems that would likely be within a few centuries of continuous activity based on when dreadnoughts typically seem to withdraw from regular service and spend more time in stasis. To be clear, I think the time in stasis pauses this process and prevents it progressing, preserving these great heroes of the Chapter until they are needed.
So I don't think I ever disagreed with the idea of degradation, but I would humbly suggest that using the term "psychosis" is maybe not the best term. While it might be appropriate in the clinical sense, degeneration feels more apt and is less likely to recieve pushback, especially since the Chaos Dreadnoughts are described as "completely psychotic", in contrast with the often "wise, War Council appropriate" loyalist ones.
Can we introduce "Dreadnought abuse" as a concept here? Like, if a chapter isn't appropriately caring for their Dreadnoughts they might turn into raging lunatics. But given the more common descriptions of Dreadnoughts that scenario seems a very atypical outcome.
Edit: Out of curiosity I googled the relationship between dementia and psychosis:
"Some people with dementia may become aggressive at times and have trouble regulating their emotions. Psychosis can also be a complication of dementia. Psychosis refers to the mental state where someone is not sure what's real or not. It can include paranoid or delusional thoughts as well as hallucinations."
I think that is fair regarding the term "psychosis" in general use vs clinical use. Clinically psychosis is a really general term that references all maner of states where an individual has lost touch with reality, whereas unfortunately the common parlance typically refers to a violently unhinged state. Such violent states are actually really uncommon forms of psychosis in the clinical meaning. I only used the word psychosis because it is definitionally insane in a clinical context- in the UK psychosis is generally the bar for involuntary admission to a mental health unit.
I suspect that deteriorated dreadnoughts are much more likely to enter states akin to dementia and/or severe depression than violent agitation if they spend too much time out of stasis, but nothing concrete to back that up. Degeneration is definitely an appropriate term in general, otherwise halting time using stasis devices wouldn't be helpful.
I like the term dreadnought abuse I agree it is probably uncommon, if nothing else through attitrion killing off most dreadnoughts first.
As it happens, I have very rarely seen severe dementia sufferers described as psychotic despite many such folk reaching the typical clinical definition. Probably it just isn't needed as severe dementia is the overarching diagnosis and the management doesn't change.
There’s also the mind having to adapt to technological senses. When the Sarcophagus is implanted in the chassis? You have limbs again. You can walking around, interact with the outside world. When it’s out? None of that. You’re just in a very fancy jar.
We’ve all heard about instances of persons awake during surgery, yes? What if that happens to some Dreadnought occupants? Thought to be in stasis, but not fully, and with no way to communicate that?
There’s also the question of how long Dreadnoughts were originally intended to have a single occupant. My bet is the original intention was never thousands of years.
We’ve all heard about instances of persons awake during surgery, yes? What if that happens to some Dreadnought occupants? Thought to be in stasis, but not fully, and with no way to communicate that?
Nobody wants to hear their grandma being described as psychotic.