I just got an e-mail from GW saying that prices will increase from the 6th of October this year. I don't know if there will be a post on Warhammer Community about this but I didn't see one when I just checked.
According to the e-mail it will be about 4%, with some products (namely paints and sprays) not increasing at all.
So yeah, there it is. I don't tend to follow GW price rises, though I guess they do them roughly every year. The way the e-mail is written they seem to be indicating an average of 4%, with some products being more and some being less. This is more or less in line with the rate of inflation in the UK, assuming they did something similar last year. Perhaps a bit higher than inflation, though of course GW's specific costs won't be exactly the same as the national average rate of inflation.
Apologies if I have posted this in the wrong place. Since it's news I figured it belonged here.
EDIT: I figured I might as well post the exact wording here:
A Quick Note on Prices
From 6 October 2025, some prices in Warhammer stores and on Warhammer.com will be changing.
On average, prices will rise by about 4%, but the exact amount will vary by product – some will change a little more, some a little less. The prices of many products, including paints, sprays, and paint sets, aren’t changing at all.
We’re sharing this now so you’ve got time to make any purchases you’ve been planning at today’s prices.
Sounds about "average" for GW, to do it before the holiday blitz.
And as to that average, I'm sure it's true, as sure as I am that to reach that, there will be some stuff that will get raised very little to allow for what they actually want to raise very much.
Other than still hoping for a Kislev & Dogs of War MTO run, I've kept up with the old world releases and other than one or two things I've either skipped or that were constantly out of stock, I now just don't feel the need to keep buying anything especially if kits are about to see another 4% increase. The old world kits increased in cost not so long ago as it was, and as a good percentage of them are 20+ years old as it is, the value just isn't there. This price rise would see standard infantry kits push past the €70 per set.
Plenty of people will still buy them at the new price and then ditch them on the 2nd hand stores 2 months later, so if I really feel I need some additional stuff I can pick them up at 50% off. And really, after 30+ years of collecting WFB stuff, I really don't care about 'supporting GW directly' to keep the game alive again. If they kill it off because of poor sales, its in my favour as lots of people will dump their collections on the cheap again like during the end times.
I think its good of GW to let me know its time again to give them another nice long break from the weekly FOMO ordering and start checking out some other games for a bit whilst I go back to painting backlog once again. Being able to buy regular old world kits from GW was always an expensive convenience and was never going to be a long term and financially rewarding part of the hobby.
Yeah that's sort of what I object to though - the idea that companies charging more for stuff just because of the passage of time is somehow as natural as winter being cold. It isn't, this never used to happen, if you wanted to charge more you made a new product and sold consumers on the benefits. A box of 10 intercessors is no more valuable than it was at launch, if anything less so, but it now costs a lot more because of reasons. It's bs
I bought some Tyranids from a UK online store back in 2019. I finally got round to painting them. Out of curiousity I looked at the new kit and saw it was I think 31.50 for 10 gaunts and 1 ripper swarm. Sticker shock made me go check what I had paid for my brood back then and I had bought 24 gaunts and 2 ripper swarms for 32.00. I did buy from a discounter but nearly doubling in price in 6 years is pretty crazy imo and I can't think of anything else I buy that has done the same. My wages certainly haven't doubled! It's rare that I look at a GW kit and think 'that's worth buying' these days. But they seem to be raking in the cash so plenty of people must disagree with me!
Thats not necessarily true. Because GW is its own importer, the declared value on the goods is basically the cost of production rather than anything approaching or resembling the retail price. Retail prices are not a straight markup on those production costs, i.e. a bottle of paint might have a retail markup that is 12x its cost of production, whereas a plastic kit might only be 5x.
Because GW is pricing against (in)elasticity considerations and other factors and dynamics of the broader hobby marketplace, there is not a straight correlation between the cost of production (and by extension cost of tariffs) to retail pricing. So those tariffs are a 10% increase to the cost of production, but wont necessarily translate to a 10% hike on the retail price because the cost of the hikes aren't passing through to retail in a linear manner. I.E. If it costs them $5 to produce a kit, and thats the items declared value, then the tariffs are hitting them for $0.50 - but because they are selling that same item for say, $35, they don't need to apply a 10% markup on the MSRP to level it out, it only takes a roughly 1.45% increase to cover the cost. Now lets say you have another kit that costs them $6 to produce, tariffs bring it up to $6.60 - but that item retails for $20 instead. In that case, it takes a 3% hike in order to cancel out the tariff impact.
Because GW is pricing against (in)elasticity considerations and other factors and dynamics of the broader hobby marketplace, there is not a straight correlation between the cost of production (and by extension cost of tariffs) to retail pricing. So those tariffs are a 10% increase to the cost of production, but wont necessarily translate to a 10% hike on the retail price ...
It's worth adding that tariffs aren't applied equally across all goods.
For example whatever HTS code is used for plastic sprues will get one rate while many codes for printed books are zero-rated and not subject to tariffs. Paints may get an entirely different rate to both of those, depending how they are sourced & distributed.
Billicus wrote: Yeah that's sort of what I object to though - the idea that companies charging more for stuff just because of the passage of time is somehow as natural as winter being cold. It isn't, this never used to happen, if you wanted to charge more you made a new product and sold consumers on the benefits. A box of 10 intercessors is no more valuable than it was at launch, if anything less so, but it now costs a lot more because of reasons. It's bs
Yeah, that's not how that's ever worked. For any product.
Because GW is pricing against (in)elasticity considerations and other factors and dynamics of the broader hobby marketplace, there is not a straight correlation between the cost of production (and by extension cost of tariffs) to retail pricing. So those tariffs are a 10% increase to the cost of production, but wont necessarily translate to a 10% hike on the retail price ...
It's worth adding that tariffs aren't applied equally across all goods.
For example whatever HTS code is used for plastic sprues will get one rate while many codes for printed books are zero-rated and not subject to tariffs. Paints may get an entirely different rate to both of those, depending how they are sourced & distributed.
while true, I believe the current status of American trade policy roulette has almost all relevant goods from the UK tariffed at 10%. The only exception to be found in GWs product line would be anything that indicates "Made in China" on the packaging.
Billicus wrote: Yeah that's sort of what I object to though - the idea that companies charging more for stuff just because of the passage of time is somehow as natural as winter being cold. It isn't, this never used to happen, if you wanted to charge more you made a new product and sold consumers on the benefits. A box of 10 intercessors is no more valuable than it was at launch, if anything less so, but it now costs a lot more because of reasons. It's bs
Yeah, that's not how that's ever worked. For any product.
Yeah, wow - I missed Billicus post and thats umm.. yeah, thats something. A crazy point of view that completely fails to understand economic reality. Things aren't getting more expensive "because of the passage of time", they are getting more expensive for a whole host of reasons that are fundamentally intrinsic to the realities of modern life:
1. Labor costs increase every year because people expect to be paid more every year, commensurate with the growth of their skill and experience. If you dont pay them more, they leave and you struggle to attract comparable talent unless you're willing to pay even more to recruit them from competitors. If your entire workforce averages a 3% increase in wages every year, well guess what - your labor costs are going to increase and that needs to be offset by growth in your revenue and/or profit margins somehow.
2. Resource extraction costs increase every year. Modern life is largely built on mostly finite and irreplaceable raw materials. The more of it you extract, the more expensive it becomes to continue extracting it - resources are generally (overwhelmingly) extracted in a progressive manner commensurate with the difficulty and effort involved in accessing, removing, and processing it. As the easier stuff depletes, extraction moves on to the next easiest option available - but the next easiest option is always slightly more expensive to extract than the previous. Visualizing an open pit mine is a good example of what that means in practical terms - for each "tier" down in the pit mine, the cost of extracting the resources from that tier was slightly higher than the tier before it, because removing it entails slightly more work. The travel distance to remove material from the pit increases the lower you go, which means more work, energy, and fuel are used to bring it to the surface and remove it from the pit. Additionally, the deeper you go, the more waste material you need to remove, and the harder it is to remove it because of the aforementioned reason. Then theres the additional shoring, support, de-watering, etc. needed. The same is true of virtually every other form of resource extraction.
3. Energy costs generally increase every year - in part because fuel extraction costs increase every year, in part because of equipment decay (see below), in part because population growth increases demand relative to available supply, in part because technological advancement increases demand relative to available supply (see also: the impact of AI computing on the energy sector), etc. The more expensive energy costs become, the more expensive it becomes to do pretty much anything. Even renewables aren't immune to this reality - turbines require maintenance and replacement, solar panels see efficiency losses over time and eventually need replacement, etc.
4. Operating costs increase every year because equipment, facilities, systems, technology, etc. decay and degrade with use and require increased maintenance (read: more money) in order to service, maintain, and ensure continued operations. Its a simple fact of life that a piece of equipment purchased today will not deliver the same amount of value and productivity 20 years from now, both because of the increased downtime resulting from those maintenance needs, but also because the performance output of that system will never match its capabilities when it was brand new. Eventually you need to replace it, and its going to be more expensive to replace it than it was to buy the system you are replacing - because of all of the above reasons.
The net sum of all of that?
Things will get more expensive, regardless of whether or not the products you are buying become more "valuable".
All of the above is 100% true.
But I will also add that we are in the era of private equity, high investor class payouts, and in the Age of Infinite Growth. Whereby, anything less than growth year over year over year is not desirable in any sense
While costs must certainly increase, and that’s absolutely a requirement, regardless of industry, the amount of increases in cost for many things of late has been astronomical, and nearly unprecedented in almost any era of history outside of economical depression.
It used to be that increasing revenue for a business by 10% over 3-5 years would often offset increased costs and maintain healthy profit margins over that time period quite satisfactorily. Not so today. And this is due to shareholder dividends, private equity owning far more than they should, and less so resource, energy and maintenance costs- with increases in technology come increased efficiency in every aspect of production and extraction. But we do not see costs maintained in ANY sector due to this fact. It’s only increases and some of them exponentially.
It used to be that increasing retail, maintaining a 10% growth year over year was more than sustainable, and this was a mere 20 years ago. Now? Retailers are demanding 30%, 40%, and in my own personal case, 145% increase in sales over the last years quarter.
That is not normal, excusable, nor sustainable in any sense.
I’m not saying that costs for all of the above mentioned don’t increase. But annual increases of 4,5,10,20+% of any product or resource are far from ‘normal’. Especially when we are seeing advances in technology as fast as they have occurred over the past few decades.
Now pardon me, I need to get some more Necromunda stuff before costs go up….
The normal yearly price increase has nothing to do with tariffs, as it isn't US only
This is simply just there to make sure the artificial value of their products remains and "buying now for cheap" + fomo in place as everyone know it won't get cheaper if you wait but just more expensive
This is also why we have pile of shames, because a "maybe I need it in future" means buy it now and put it in your storage because you don't know if it will still be available but you know it will be much more expensive
And of course this works, GW makes good money with their sales strategy and the yearly increase is an important part of it
The only surprise is how many people every year are coming forth with explanations on why GW has no choice.
A fixed yearly price increase that is more or less random among SKUs and only on average similar to inflation is exclusive to GW
we already have calculated GWs increases for inflation several times and yes, some items are exactly at the inflation rate over the past 20 years, others are double or even 4 times the inflation.
And given that GW operates at a very high margin unlike supermarkets, their increase is never a "must" to survive but simple a "people still buy it"
Again, it’s not something anyone has to like, but GW’s legal responsibility is to their shareholders. And that’s to maximise profits.
Now, there is more to that than just “slap a high price on it”. If you price yourself out of the market, your sales suffer and you can easily produce reduced profits as a result.
So if you increase by 4% (to use the announced one), but that results in a 5% drop in sales? You’re not maximising profits.
Naturally it’s all much more complex than that, but as a nutshell description it’ll work for this thread.
What we can add is that for decades now, certainly since I first joined Portent in what, 1998? People have been saying that this price increase is definitely the one to break the camel’s back. And it’s never really happened. In recent years, GW has seen serious and sustained year on year growth.
Doesn’t mean GW can’t still price themselves out of the market. But it does kinda go to show that GW know what they’re about, and seem to be getting it right.
> If you price yourself out of the market, your sales suffer and you can easily produce reduced profits as a result.
Okay. Here comes the economics lecture. It's an oversimplification, so you're best off searching for more information if you disagree, find exceptions, or I'm not explaining it clearly enough.
Elastic vs. Inelastic: "Inelastic demand is evident when demand for a good or service is relatively static, even when its price changes. Inelastic products are usually necessities without acceptable substitutes. As such, these products are things that people need in their day-to-day lives regardless of economic conditions. ... There are no perfectly inelastic goods. " -- Investopedia.
Elasticity, btw, is not "either / or". A product is to a degree against its competitors elastic.
So you're assuming that GW has an elastic product. This is not the case. Compared to a hobbyist of generic fantasy miniatures, a GW customer will generally not migrate to another game system with price increases -- to some extent.
Meanwhile, a company that makes generic fantasy miniatures, faces more elastic demand. Companies that make only metal generic fantasy miniatures lost customers to companies that made plastic generic fantasy miniatures because they're cheaper. Indeed, GW killed its fantasy Warhammer game line because other companies were making fantasy miniatures *that could be used in Warhammer* cheaper.
Every company, of course, wants their product to be as inelastic as possible. That's where "monopolistic competition" comes in. A toothpaste company will add marketing and various health claims to not only distinguish their product from the competition, but also make you brand-loyal, so they can charge more for their product without your switching to a competitor. Likewise, IP protection (eg. trademarks) prevent competitors from making products whose IP you own. Generic fantasy is not an IP that anyone can own, though the can own various variants (eg. Lord of the Rings, Dungeons and Dragons).
That's what GW does well -- creating inelasticity. Unlike generic fantasy, science fiction worlds tend to be un-interchangeable, so are better suited for "ownership" resulting in inelasticity. You won't see The Emperor in Aliens, Star Trek, or Star Wars, and each of these media properties are owned. But elves, dwarves, orcs, etc. are commonly found in various generic fantasy media, from movies to hobby games, and this inability for any company to own the entirety of "generic fantasy" is what allows companies to compete against each other for customers who like this genre. Meanwhile, most GW gamers can't just switch to another SF world. GW owns their world.
You are correct that a company can't just raise prices ad infinitum. That's why "There are no perfectly inelastic goods." And, for some potential GW enthusiasts (I like their mini's very much), the cost of GW is too high, so these potential customers go elsewhere. However, GW has created *enough* customers that they don't need these naysayers to make a good profit. (On a related note, see also "whales".)
The trick, then, is to market to your customers suchthat you have as inelastic a good as possible. As said, GW does it through creating a unique world that is unavailable anywhere else. Various videogame franchises, Magic the Gathering, and even LEGO, are other examples of inelastic goods. It's really pretty standard for a company to try to make an elastic good, but GW has arguably done it quite well.
It's a simple equation for me, it's not elastic, I stick to my budget. They can charge what they want.
Its hard to keep up with the "deal" that sells out in minutes, so I avoid it more and more leaving me time to spread the costs in time and the more I extend the project the bigger chance I will just move to something else.
Meaning the higher the prices are, the less impulse buy I do, and that breaks down all of GW marketing master plan.
Once your out of that burn and churn cycle and you just enjoy things in your own time you tend to buy a lot less.
No rush just chilling.
Note - On the other hand, if say, a combat patrol was as cheap as half the price, oh boy I would still be on that hype train and probably getting 3 boxes... today I get none, if I dont need 1 mini in it. Thats the difference and GW did it to themselves.
NAVARRO wrote: It's a simple equation for me, it's not elastic, I stick to my budget. They can charge what they want.
Its hard to keep up with the "deal" that sells out in minutes, so I avoid it more and more leaving me time to spread the costs in time and the more I extend the project the bigger chance I will just move to something else.
Meaning the higher the prices are, the less impulse buy I do, and that breaks down all of GW marketing master plan.
Once your out of that burn and churn cycle and you just enjoy things in your own time you tend to buy a lot less.
No rush just chilling.
Note - On the other hand, if say, a combat patrol was as cheap as half the price, oh boy I would still be on that hype train and probably getting 3 boxes... today I get none, if I dont need 1 mini in it. Thats the difference and GW did it to themselves.
GW sell their combat patrol at the price they charge today.
They can not produce the extra boxes that would sell at half the price.
The usual arguments are coming up about Games Workshop prices. It's clear from GW's annual financial reports that they could afford to charge a lot less for their products. Then again they are under no obligation to make their products cheaper. Arguably high prices from GW also gives more room for the competition to operate. Even though GW is by far the dominant player in the market if their prices were cheaper there would be less incentive to shop elsewhere.
One point I wanted to pick up on specifically is the whole supply / demand thing, i.e. GW aren't able to keep up with supply. This is evidenced by the amount of out of stock items. While I think there is still some truth to that argument I think the amount of out of stocks has reduced a lot in recent months. I know GW were expanding their factory in Nottingham, I'm not sure how far along they are on this project. Regardless demand does not seem to be outstripping supply any more, at least not to the same extent as previously.
Like I say I'm not sure why supply is currently more or less OK. It could be because production has expanded. Or because demand is not that high at this time of year. Or something else. I'm not really sure.
Ultimately even if GW have finally found a way to keep up with demand we shouldn't kid ourselves into thinking that they will make their products more affordable as a result.
Vorian wrote: They can't manufacture enough product to satisfy demand, their prices being too high is not really an argument that holds any merit at all.
Ah, yeah, that's the actual issue, right there. They sell out still, so... clearly the market will bear them raising prices.
While this keeps happening, everything else will be moot.
GW sell their combat patrol at the price they charge today.
They can not produce the extra boxes that would sell at half the price.
Are you trying to say that at half price they would not be earning money? Because... citation needed.
They'd still make money, but why would they sell for less when they can't manufacture enough to satisfy those potential extra sales?
Their customers buy whatever they make. I guess in some cases they have priced too highly and not sold everything they could have (they certainly priced me way out with the new night goblins that I would have picked up for Old World at least), but on the whole they can't make enough to meet demand.
This is just an increase slightly above inflation though, we'll get another one next year and have this exact thread again.
Da Boss wrote: I bought some Tyranids from a UK online store back in 2019. I finally got round to painting them. Out of curiousity I looked at the new kit and saw it was I think 31.50 for 10 gaunts and 1 ripper swarm. Sticker shock made me go check what I had paid for my brood back then and I had bought 24 gaunts and 2 ripper swarms for 32.00. I did buy from a discounter but nearly doubling in price in 6 years is pretty crazy imo and I can't think of anything else I buy that has done the same. My wages certainly haven't doubled! It's rare that I look at a GW kit and think 'that's worth buying' these days. But they seem to be raking in the cash so plenty of people must disagree with me!
I wish my electricity bill had only doubled in the last 6 years. It's more like quadrupled.
Billicus wrote: Yeah that's sort of what I object to though - the idea that companies charging more for stuff just because of the passage of time is somehow as natural as winter being cold. It isn't, this never used to happen, if you wanted to charge more you made a new product and sold consumers on the benefits. A box of 10 intercessors is no more valuable than it was at launch, if anything less so, but it now costs a lot more because of reasons. It's bs
Yeah, that's not how that's ever worked. For any product.
You put so much skin in the game with your detailed counter-argument of "no", wow. And then I got called crazy. Quality discourse on Dakka. Enjoy getting milked for all you're worth, useful tools.
Vorian wrote: They can't manufacture enough product to satisfy demand, their prices being too high is not really an argument that holds any merit at all.
Ah, yeah, that's the actual issue, right there. They sell out still, so... clearly the market will bear them raising prices.
While this keeps happening, everything else will be moot.
They sell out *sometimes*. There's a lot of gak sitting on shelves and getting sent back to HQ. And there are other considerations that aren't moot. Making record profits from a dwindling customer base isn't as good a position to be in as it might look.
Is their market dwindling though? Last I checked their market just went through a massive boom. Even accounting for the artificial high of the Pandemic and the natural slowdown that followed; GW are still doing amazingly well - enough to invest in yet more factory construction.
Billicus wrote: Yeah that's sort of what I object to though - the idea that companies charging more for stuff just because of the passage of time is somehow as natural as winter being cold. It isn't, this never used to happen, if you wanted to charge more you made a new product and sold consumers on the benefits. A box of 10 intercessors is no more valuable than it was at launch, if anything less so, but it now costs a lot more because of reasons. It's bs
Yeah, that's not how that's ever worked. For any product.
You put so much skin in the game with your detailed counter-argument of "no", wow. And then I got called crazy. Quality discourse on Dakka. Enjoy getting milked for all you're worth, useful tools.
Vorian wrote: They can't manufacture enough product to satisfy demand, their prices being too high is not really an argument that holds any merit at all.
Ah, yeah, that's the actual issue, right there. They sell out still, so... clearly the market will bear them raising prices.
While this keeps happening, everything else will be moot.
They sell out *sometimes*. There's a lot of gak sitting on shelves and getting sent back to HQ. And there are other considerations that aren't moot. Making record profits from a dwindling customer base isn't as good a position to be in as it might look.
I suppose they might be building a new factory because they sell out *sometimes*, but even if you aren't familiar with their products constantly being out of stock, you'd have to imagine they are building a new factory because they think they can sell more volume at the current prices.
You put so much skin in the game with your detailed counter-argument of "no", wow. And then I got called crazy. Quality discourse on Dakka. Enjoy getting milked for all you're worth, useful tools.
As opposed to the quality discourse of making an easily disproven claim while calling everyone tools?
Their *market* (tabletop in general) is in boom, no doubt. My belief is GW are commanding a shrinking amount of that market, in terms of their customer numbers. It's not something they report on directly but you can look at the increase of spending on warhammer community and new stores for example, but generally that belief for me is anecdotally driven so take it with a dose of salt, it certainly isn't fact. I mean hell they literally give away a model every month in their stores now, even when they were doing cover models in WD they weren't giving them away.
Considering that overseas from the UK; stock is a constant complaint; then yes GW clearly can cope with more production.
We also have to consider that they are steadily moving away from resin and metal and pushing for more plastics.
Everything suggests that GW are on a big sustained high right now. Any dip is very unlikely to be GW's prices in isolation and more the result of other market forces (cost of living; disasters; etc)
You put so much skin in the game with your detailed counter-argument of "no", wow. And then I got called crazy. Quality discourse on Dakka. Enjoy getting milked for all you're worth, useful tools.
As opposed to the quality discourse of making an easily disproven claim while calling everyone tools?
Please, if it's so easily disproven, lay it on me. "It isn't too expensive because some people will still pay it" isn't disproving.
I'm not calling *everyone* tools, bit reductive. FWIW, it was purely the "I don't see why an old product is worth so much more today than it was at release" that was being dismissed as "but no", that's the thing I think is a bit overly useful to GW to be saying. If there's a good reason why 10 intercessors cost *so much* more today than they did when they were the new hotness and still had all the initial costs to pay off I'll gladly hear it.
(Intercessors are a gak example but everyone knows there are lots of better/worse examples either way because GW do this very inconsistently)
GW has issues with keeping supply up since the very beginning, no new factory solved that simple because GW uses them to make more new items and not to make more of the already existing ones.
Also increasing prices of existing items that are on stock has nothing to do with compensation of costs but is there to create the perception of value
So an average of 4%?
With all those paint pots having a 0% rise, I guess it means the plastic gets a 10% or so rise to bring the average to 4%.
Crafty.
kodos wrote: GW has issues with keeping supply up since the very beginning, no new factory solved that simple because GW uses them to make more new items and not to make more of the already existing ones.
Also increasing prices of existing items that are on stock has nothing to do with compensation of costs but is there to create the perception of value
Well the last time they brought a factory online it happened during the Pandemic when GW's product demand spiked way beyond any predictions; then it remained much higher than before even when it came down from the peek. So its not that GW was making more models and couldn't keep up; its that demand went way beyond what GW could support.
Also there's a flipside that GW increasing product variety helps them increase product demand and market growth. Bringing all those old games back means GW retains more of the market; retains growth; maximises the chance for customers to move within instead of outside their ecosystem
kodos wrote: GW has issues with keeping supply up since the very beginning, no new factory solved that simple because GW uses them to make more new items and not to make more of the already existing ones.
Also increasing prices of existing items that are on stock has nothing to do with compensation of costs but is there to create the perception of value
"They have an issue keeping up with supply because all their added capacity is taken up with new releases that they can't stock enough of". Ok? They still can't manufacture enough to satisfy demand.
They are increasing costs of existing items in line with inflation so their real price is constant.
Billicus wrote: Their *market* (tabletop in general) is in boom, no doubt. My belief is GW are commanding a shrinking amount of that market, in terms of their customer numbers. It's not something they report on directly but you can look at the increase of spending on warhammer community and new stores for example, but generally that belief for me is anecdotally driven so take it with a dose of salt, it certainly isn't fact. I mean hell they literally give away a model every month in their stores now, even when they were doing cover models in WD they weren't giving them away.
Year end and 6 month financial results (all checked by an independent party) are available here
So I’m afraid your claim just isn’t correct, or supported by any available evidence. To be blunt? You don’t generate a 22% increase in a year off the back of a dwindling consumer base.
It might be true at the local level for some that certain generations of gamer are drifting away from GW. Older gamers who've been in the game long enough and are looking for other games and model lines; but younger people are 100% getting hooked on GW.
Lets not forget for a lot of the fantasy/scifi market - GW isn't just another game. It's the game that they are brought into the market with. One thing GW does tremendously well is get fresh blood through the door.
School programs, Hatchetworks, IP licences in other markets (video games, Amazon TV); own brand highstreet shops
All those things and more combine to get GW fresh blood. New customers; some who just buy a lot and leave; others who stick around. No one else comes close to this in the market - everyone else is left poaching gamers off GW for the most part; with a much reduced impact on totally fresh blood entering the market.
I'm interested to see what happens when the new factory is operational, and how it feels on the customer end (or if we feel anything at all).
I somehow doubt it'll be a steady, quiet, moderate return to the days where pretty much everything you wanted to buy from them was available whenever you wanted it. Almost feels inevitable that there's some kind of unexpected negative consequence waiting for the customers (more FOMO splashes, limited products, etc.)
I mean I could go a step further and assemble specific examples from two decades in the business I work for; showing our suppliers increasing their costs year on year while we make similar annual sales price revisions to maintain profit. But there's absolutely no point in doing that because your goal here is not to listen or understand, but to tell everyone how mad you are.
Overread wrote: Older gamers who've been in the game long enough and are looking for other games and model lines; but younger people are 100% getting hooked on GW.
I don't think there is much evidence for this at all. Their increased earnings are based on generations of once-aspirational customers who have nostalgia for the late 90's/early 00's and have entered their highest-earning years.
edit: and the "lore only" fan is a new identity that has skyrocketed in recent years. They watch youtube and play videogames, but do not engage with tabletop gaming.
There’s also some argument that as, categorically the biggest fish in the pond? A robust GW is beneficial, precisely because they’re the Majority Entry Point.
So, most sci-fi or fantasy war gamers will get into the hobby via GW products. And from there, through online sources and clubs, be exposed to other companies and games which they may very well prefer. Maybe permanently, maybe as another system they play alongside their GW ones.
Now, that is not to say if something truly catastrophic happened to GW, it would therefore take the whole industry the way of the Dodo too. But their reach and impact right now is undeniable.
Not to justify GW’s prices and increases and that? But by ensuring they themselves have a very comfortable profit margin? They give more wiggle room for other companies after a fashion.
Consider Kings of War. At the outset, a major part of its appeal was its models being notably cheaper than Warhammer. And so we saw hobbyists buying KoS models to play WHFB with.
But, if GW had decided to cut their own profit margins, and reduce their prices to KoW levels? Mantic would’ve lost that selling point - or have been forced to slim down their own profit margins to maintain it. Which, and this bit is seriously speculative, could’ve meant Mantic couldn’t make sufficient profit.
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Altruizine wrote: I'm interested to see what happens when the new factory is operational, and how it feels on the customer end (or if we feel anything at all).
I somehow doubt it'll be a steady, quiet, moderate return to the days where pretty much everything you wanted to buy from them was available whenever you wanted it. Almost feels inevitable that there's some kind of unexpected negative consequence waiting for the customers (more FOMO splashes, limited products, etc.)
Might depend if they’ve hammered the new warehousing software into shape.
But something’s gotta give. By all means, not being able to meet stock demand is a nice problem to have - but it absolutely is a problem. Whilst we can’t know what percentage of GW sales (across all channels) might be impulse buys? That will be part of it. So, if you struggle to meet demand, those impulse buys are quickly lost. And there’s no guarantee the impulse itself will be sated by the spod buying a different GW box.
Some part of it must surely be the clear increase in demand. Initial stock levels are planned well in advance of release. But, if you’ve seen a significant increase in buyers since you set that Release Day Stock Level? It’s more likely you’ll again fail to meet demand.
So….yeah, high demand and struggling to meet it is a problem, however nice a problem it is in the grand scheme of things.
Loss Leader. Same reason that supermarkets in the UK can sell a decent beer at less than half the price of a pub pint.
They take the hit on Product A as the “lure”, losing a little money in doing so. And it’s the profit margins of Products B-Z, which you buy whilst you’re there, that make the money.
GW Big Boxes are also there to give you and a friend a way to try it out. The two Heresy ones of course get a leg up that they also offer a significant solo force to you straight off the bat. Speaking of which? I really need to get on with some model building.
I doubt that any of the models GW sells are loss leaders. The models they straight up give away for free are, of course. But I think even the most restrained sellers, like event models or other limited editions, still make their production costs back. As would the WH+ ones if one was intellectually honest and rolled them up into the cost vs. earnings of the service, and didn't consider them freebies.
kodos wrote: GW has issues with keeping supply up since the very beginning, no new factory solved that simple because GW uses them to make more new items and not to make more of the already existing ones.
Also increasing prices of existing items that are on stock has nothing to do with compensation of costs but is there to create the perception of value
"They have an issue keeping up with supply because all their added capacity is taken up with new releases that they can't stock enough of". Ok? They still can't manufacture enough to satisfy demand.
They are increasing costs of existing items in line with inflation so their real price is constant.
There is a difference between cannot meet demand and don't want to meet demand.
GW rather releasing something new over increasing stock simply means they don't want to, not that they can't
And keeping the price up so things aren't getting cheaper over time just more expensive is exactly the strategy of artificial value creating I was talking about
One thing to consider is the statement we've had before that models make a huge chunk of their money back and profits in the first month or two of release.
So a big part of Gw continuing new models is 100% them keeping sales going both for those boom sales but also to keep other things going.
Sure GW could slow down and release nothing; but just look how conversation; chatter and attention drifts FAST when nothing new appears. Heck look what happened to armies like Sisters of Battle when they didn't get anything new for ages - sales and interest dries up.
GW can't afford to slow down on releases too much; they can't stop doing it because then everyone gets off the rollercoaster
Yeah, it actually makes sense when you look at it from GW’s perspective. Their paints live in a way more competitive market — Vallejo, Army Painter, Pro Acryl, Scale 75, even the random Amazon knock-offs. In terms of value and quality, GW can’t just jack the price up without people instantly jumping ship to something that’s basically the same or better.
Their models though? Totally different story. Like it or not, GW’s minis are head and shoulders above most of the competition. Sure, other companies make good sculpts, but GW’s sheer design volume, consistency, and brand pull are on another level. That gives them the leverage to push the prices up on plastic crack while keeping paints steady. Basically: paints are in the cola wars, minis are a monopoly on a really addictive flavor.
kodos wrote: GW has issues with keeping supply up since the very beginning, no new factory solved that simple because GW uses them to make more new items and not to make more of the already existing ones.
Also increasing prices of existing items that are on stock has nothing to do with compensation of costs but is there to create the perception of value
"They have an issue keeping up with supply because all their added capacity is taken up with new releases that they can't stock enough of". Ok? They still can't manufacture enough to satisfy demand.
They are increasing costs of existing items in line with inflation so their real price is constant.
There is a difference between cannot meet demand and don't want to meet demand.
GW rather releasing something new over increasing stock simply means they don't want to, not that they can't
And keeping the price up so things aren't getting cheaper over time just more expensive is exactly the strategy of artificial value creating I was talking about
That doesn't make sense.
They can't be using new capacity to only build new stuff, letting old stuff go out of stock to the point people can't buy stuff for weeks at a time.
Producing artificially low numbers of the new product to keep prices high.
Spending vast amounts to increase their manufacturing capabilities.
They obviously can't produce enough to meet demand and are investing to increase the amount they can.
Here is a question: Has GW ever said why it is raising prices? I think the only time I can ever remember something along those lines was an article way back when in WD, when white metal was introduced and the new alloy + production costs caused an increase.
I say this as its normal, within the industry, for a "sorry tin/shipping/tarrifs have increased in cost, we've tried to hide the costs in our margins but its no longer possible" type of message - think have seen something similar from both Warlord and Mantic over the past year or two, to give examples.
But, I guess when you effectively operate in a monopoly, are by far the biggest boy on the block, you don't need to even make a token concession.
NAVARRO wrote: It's a simple equation for me, it's not elastic, I stick to my budget. They can charge what they want.
Its hard to keep up with the "deal" that sells out in minutes, so I avoid it more and more leaving me time to spread the costs in time and the more I extend the project the bigger chance I will just move to something else.
Meaning the higher the prices are, the less impulse buy I do, and that breaks down all of GW marketing master plan.
Once your out of that burn and churn cycle and you just enjoy things in your own time you tend to buy a lot less.
No rush just chilling.
Note - On the other hand, if say, a combat patrol was as cheap as half the price, oh boy I would still be on that hype train and probably getting 3 boxes... today I get none, if I dont need 1 mini in it. Thats the difference and GW did it to themselves.
GW sell their combat patrol at the price they charge today.
They can not produce the extra boxes that would sell at half the price.
I think you missed my point.
I was trying to say that in a perspective of someone, in my position that got fed up of the churn and burn, missing constantly the box I wanted to scalpers and slowly drifted away from GW FOMO/urgency marketing agenda... that today theres very little or no impulse buys available at a tempting pick up price. Im not saying they can or cant produce or that they choose not too etc... Im saying that combat patrols or other examples just got higher price tags and slim in model quantities... so I stopped buying more of them or even just one.
Like one thing is having loads of minis in these sets and one or two minis are not to your liking... another thing is some HQ individual minis costing £20ish + on a box of £100.
Some boxes are better than others but generally 20is minis for £100 is not impulse in my books.
I dont see people not thinking in £100 when spending it in the UK.
I mention CP boxes because these are supposedly the better deals and official entry point sets.
In short if you're out and not part of the marketing rampage anymore, theres little or nothing to pick up as impulse buy. So by default you're out of the train for good.
Yes GW did this to themselves, and I just chill and relax and still spend the same money I did years ago. I didn't change, GW did and thats just fine. If they make loads of money with others, good for them... Is it good for competiton like someone said? I dont think so, competition is facing extinction for the past years...
I think it's a lot healthier for me to ignore all of this artificial sense of value, FOMO, 3 year editions, scalpers etc.
Prices are what they are and GW will not stop raising them regularly above inflation and such, its totally fine it simply forces me to opt out of the mad frenzy which I thank them for.
I recall when GW said that rising costs of metals were forcing them to change to a cheaper material, Finecast. However oddly whilst the material got cheaper the price of models took a hike at that time.
Similar to when GW announced very loudly that Forgeworld was going to be shifting to shipping through GW's internal shipping system instead of direct mail. A LOT of overseas people waited for that change over and then when it happened - oh wait the shipping got cheaper but now the actual model prices went UP by a lot because of how GW calculated local pricing differently. So overnight people saw big orders jump in cost.
So in general GW doesn't say why; though I think in their investor reports there's all the generic terms for remaining competitive and so on that boils down to "costs go up, prices go up, profits go up" kinda stuff.
In the end we are used to GW doing price rises every X number of months and we spawn a many-paged thread arguing about why and really just venting that we hate it and in the end the prices rise and the vast majority of us remain around for the next rise.
A few burn out, but its my observation that many of those in a place like Dakka (ergo the most keen) tend to burn out on prices as a "straw that broke the camels back" and other things like balance, model style, other brands and such were already getting those people close to dropping GW (for a time) anyway.
I think in the past we have had heads up on what models/items were going to rise specifically. We don't get a reason for it, but they have communicated what will go up before. Though not reliably every time.
In part I think its because the 3rd party stores get notified anyway so the information is out there generally before it happens and communicating it earlier spreads out the hit to sales that happens over the month since the announcement instead of right on the eve
Vorian wrote: They're putting their prices up by ~4% when UK inflation is ~4%. How much of an explanation do they need to give?
I think I did say already that the box sets got less minis, less options less everything with time... and you need more rulebooks and shorter revisions etc etc the simple fact they discontinued the start collecting ( half way entry point) and only make CP "bigger boxes' is another subtle raise...
Theres plenty increases... But yes I dont think thats news to anyone just dont paint a picture that doesn't exist.
I mean I could go a step further and assemble specific examples from two decades in the business I work for; showing our suppliers increasing their costs year on year while we make similar annual sales price revisions to maintain profit. But there's absolutely no point in doing that because your goal here is not to listen or understand, but to tell everyone how mad you are.
Vorian wrote: They're putting their prices up by ~4% when UK inflation is ~4%. How much of an explanation do they need to give?
I think I did say already that the box sets got less minis, less options less everything with time... and you need more rulebooks and shorter revisions etc etc the simple fact they discontinued the start collecting ( half way entry point) and only make CP "bigger boxes' is another subtle raise...
Theres plenty increases... But yes I dont think thats news to anyone just dont paint a picture that doesn't exist.
It was a reply to Pacific asking why they don't say why prices are increasing, your reply just came at the same time.
They don't need to explain that their prices are increasing with inflation, we can figure that out ourselves.
Vorian wrote: They're putting their prices up by ~4% when UK inflation is ~4%. How much of an explanation do they need to give?
I think I did say already that the box sets got less minis, less options less everything with time... and you need more rulebooks and shorter revisions etc etc the simple fact they discontinued the start collecting ( half way entry point) and only make CP "bigger boxes' is another subtle raise...
Theres plenty increases... But yes I dont think thats news to anyone just dont paint a picture that doesn't exist.
It was a reply to Pacific asking why they don't say why prices are increasing, your reply just came at the same time.
They don't need to explain that their prices are increasing with inflation, we can figure that out ourselves.
Ok thanks for clarifying.
I think they only say theres a price rise as, yet again, another marketing Fomo thing to make people rush to buy more before the new prices.
Sucks if your halfway a new army project, but if they do this and more every year, everyone will eventually be caught with this.
They can't be using new capacity to only build new stuff, letting old stuff go out of stock to the point people can't buy stuff for weeks at a time.
Producing artificially low numbers of the new product to keep prices high.
Spending vast amounts to increase their manufacturing capabilities.
They obviously can't produce enough to meet demand and are investing to increase the amount they can.
Anything else is tinfoil hat stuff.
I am in the hobby for 25 years now and for 25 years GW stuff is hardly available outside the initial release
some boxes have better availability others less but overall anything outside the 2 player starter boxes isn't always on stock and hard to get by
so either GW is too stupid to keep things in stock while releasing something new every month, or just don't care
I have heard the very same thing people now say about the 4th factory when GW started its 2nd and the main difference between now and 20 years ago is that the numbers of SKUs they sell is much higher, while items are still out of stock
over 20 years and 3 additional factories, availability didn't change, but the number of different items offered and new releases per year increased
GW cannot meet demand for 40k, that is why they released 30k in plastic, they cannot meet demand for AoS and we get TOW, and instead of producing more boxes for 40k we got LI in plastic as well.
if you think GW isn't able to properly plan things and earning millions by accident every year you have no clue how big of a company they really are
If they really wanted to meet demand for 40k, they would not have used those precious factory slots and warehouse space to produce Kill Team, Legion Imperalis, Necromunda and Titanicus but just made more 40k boxes to.
Or you think a manager just made a mistake by releasing a new Kill Team box instead ordering the out of stock items from the shop
I cant say i agree with any of that. Ive been in the hobby for about 23 years, prior to around 7th edition most new releases did not immediately sell out.
They can't be using new capacity to only build new stuff, letting old stuff go out of stock to the point people can't buy stuff for weeks at a time.
Producing artificially low numbers of the new product to keep prices high.
Spending vast amounts to increase their manufacturing capabilities.
They obviously can't produce enough to meet demand and are investing to increase the amount they can.
Anything else is tinfoil hat stuff.
I am in the hobby for 25 years now and for 25 years GW stuff is hardly available outside the initial release
some boxes have better availability others less but overall anything outside the 2 player starter boxes isn't always on stock and hard to get by
so either GW is too stupid to keep things in stock while releasing something new every month, or just don't care
I have heard the very same thing people now say about the 4th factory when GW started its 2nd and the main difference between now and 20 years ago is that the numbers of SKUs they sell is much higher, while items are still out of stock
over 20 years and 3 additional factories, availability didn't change, but the number of different items offered and new releases per year increased
GW cannot meet demand for 40k, that is why they released 30k in plastic, they cannot meet demand for AoS and we get TOW, and instead of producing more boxes for 40k we got LI in plastic as well.
if you think GW isn't able to properly plan things and earning millions by accident every year you have no clue how big of a company they really are
If they really wanted to meet demand for 40k, they would not have used those precious factory slots and warehouse space to produce Kill Team, Legion Imperalis, Necromunda and Titanicus but just made more 40k boxes to.
Or you think a manager just made a mistake by releasing a new Kill Team box instead ordering the out of stock items from the shop
What do you mean properly plan?
Mad Doc has shown you the revenue increase they've had, over 20 years the growth in the amount they are selling has increased massively. They increased their manufacturing base and continue to sell a very high percentage of it with room to grow.
Increasing manufacturing capacity faster than sustainable interest grows is one if their potential routes to disaster, so it's not very surprising they err on the side of caution.
They will probably always aim to have a problem keeping stuff in stock because they don't want to overproduce stuff, but just less of a problem than they have now
chaos0xomega wrote: I cant say i agree with any of that. Ive been in the hobby for about 23 years, prior to around 7th edition most new releases did not immediately sell out.
I think scalping is getting considerably more traction these past years... the influencers program is also more visible now than ever and GW marketing is totally milking it.
The IP is growing outside tabletop and that brings more visibility to 40k so we will experience more of the underplaying problems.
Scalping is 100% a problem and grew most during the Pandemic. That said lets also not forget a good many of us will buy more than one copy of select sets because the discount is good.
I've seen more than a few 3rd party stores shifting to "1 per customer" and whilst that slows down scalpers a bit, its clearly a big target on people ordering multiples.
If everyone gets 2 of a boxed set the sales for it are doubled, but when its limited product that means half as many people can buy it.
So there's scalping, but also just geeks buying stuff more than before. I'd wager scalping is more of an issue on things like limited-edition books where a single person really does only need one (or are less likely to buy two - one to read and one to keep).
prior the big online shops it was hard to tell if things were sold out or not, and hard to get doesn't necessarily means it is sold out everywhere
the reason I never started a Dark Eldar Army and Slaanesh Daemon Army in 7thE40k was because my orders vanished in the void as they were currently not available (which changed after I pre ordered) and were canceled after months (one via GW the other a 3rd party retailer)
and it wasn't any better collecting an army during 5th/6th Edition Fantasy or 5th 40k, unless you bought directly on release
but maybe I am wrong and selling out will never happen again once the 4th factory is up and running
Vorian wrote: Increasing manufacturing capacity faster than sustainable interest grows is one if their potential routes to disaster, so it's not very surprising they err on the side of caution.
yes, but with the increasing in capacity they are also increasing the number of different items produced, they have vastly expanded their product folio over time in combination with the capacity and not necessarily used that capacity to overproduce items to put on stock
they are deliberate under producing items in favour of more different releases as new stuff sells better than old items on stock
there is just no need to build up stock, if an factory run is 100k items, and those are selling out they decided to rather produce a 100k of another item to release next month instead of 200k of the same to put a 100k on stock just in case
and no new factory will change that, they will produce what they think is going to sell on release, and if this sells out the next item might be in higher numbers but they won't use the factory slots to keep things on stock outside the planned release windows
simply because models sell best together with a new book or bigger box and manufacturing is planned for those release windows
The trouble with running your factory at capacity out of necessity is that otherwise minor hiccups can cause problems.
For instance. If you’ve 10 machines running at 100% capacity to meet existing demand? What happens if one of those machines goes “sproing”? Or if demand surges? You’re already at capacity, so you’ve zero wiggle room.
But, add even a couple more machines, the peeps to run them, you’re no longer at capacity, and so are better insulated against breakdowns and surges in demand.
Which is what GW has been doing. The initial project was delayed, as the local electrical grid needed to be sorted out, as it couldn’t supply all of GW’s projected needs.
Presumably, whilst whomever is responsible for that ensured the upgrade and increase was future proofed? GW are still having to expand again.
That still carries risk. GW, like any business, can only encourage demand. You can’t actively control it. So there’s always the risk based concern of “what if we spend £Xm on this new production facility, only for demand to drop to the point we never really use it”. So it’s never as simple as “guess we’ll just buy more machines then, we’ve plenty money in the kitty”.
Whatever GW is doing works very well for them and they decided to keep doing what they do because of that
I don't see them having any problems with selling out or changing what they are doing just because we don't like it
and therefore I just don't see a shift coming just because they are going to open another factory but rather keeping everything the same because this works
If I want to buy something for Legions Imperialis, and it’s sold out? I for one am not likely to spend whatever I’d budgeted for that on something else GW. And whilst it’s likely I’ll click the “tell me when it’s back in stock” button, and will also likely get the items then? There’s still a chance I won’t bother at all.
Others may see an impulse buy, driven by a cool conversion they saw, or a “how to paint” video frustrated because they can’t buy the model. That may be money lost to GW entirely.
So as I’ve said many times in this thread and others? Having high demand is a nice problem to have, but it absolutely is a problem.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: There’s also some argument that as, categorically the biggest fish in the pond? A robust GW is beneficial, precisely because they’re the Majority Entry Point.
Yes... but mostly? No. That's the same argument that gets told about RPGs, how d&d getting big is great for everyone because the high tide lifts all boats and everything.
Reality, though? The reality is that d&d is a different hobby than RPGs, same as GW is a different hobby than other tabletop minis games, and for the overwhelmingly most part? Sales of the biggest fishes in the pond don't translate into a bigger market in general, nor into bigger earnings to everyone else... and it might actually end up suffocating the smaller fishes.
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Altruizine wrote: I doubt that any of the models GW sells are loss leaders. The models they straight up give away for free are, of course. But I think even the most restrained sellers, like event models or other limited editions, still make their production costs back. As would the WH+ ones if one was intellectually honest and rolled them up into the cost vs. earnings of the service, and didn't consider them freebies.
Not in the sense that's any actual loss there, no. Just in that capitalist "unearned dividends are loss" way.
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Jammer87 wrote: Yeah, it actually makes sense when you look at it from GW’s perspective. Their paints live in a way more competitive market — Vallejo, Army Painter, Pro Acryl, Scale 75, even the random Amazon knock-offs. In terms of value and quality, GW can’t just jack the price up without people instantly jumping ship to something that’s basically the same or better.
Their models though? Totally different story. Like it or not, GW’s minis are head and shoulders above most of the competition. Sure, other companies make good sculpts, but GW’s sheer design volume, consistency, and brand pull are on another level. That gives them the leverage to push the prices up on plastic crack while keeping paints steady. Basically: paints are in the cola wars, minis are a monopoly on a really addictive flavor.
Smaller scales at the very least would beg to differ.
kodos wrote: GW has issues with keeping supply up since the very beginning, no new factory solved that simple because GW uses them to make more new items and not to make more of the already existing ones.
Also increasing prices of existing items that are on stock has nothing to do with compensation of costs but is there to create the perception of value
"They have an issue keeping up with supply because all their added capacity is taken up with new releases that they can't stock enough of". Ok? They still can't manufacture enough to satisfy demand.
They are increasing costs of existing items in line with inflation so their real price is constant.
There is a difference between cannot meet demand and don't want to meet demand.
GW rather releasing something new over increasing stock simply means they don't want to, not that they can't
And keeping the price up so things aren't getting cheaper over time just more expensive is exactly the strategy of artificial value creating I was talking about
Producing extra stock isn't some simple magic button where it appears out of thin air. They have to schedule things well in advance, using a limited number of machines, covering a wide variety of different items, all the while making more new stuff because people want new stuff. Stopping making new stuff might help in the short-term but it's more just moving the problem to a later time or different items because they're having to constantly juggle things around. You also have to remember that there is significantly more demand than there was just a few years ago, and that was unexpected.
Vorian wrote: They're putting their prices up by ~4% when UK inflation is ~4%. How much of an explanation do they need to give?
Are paints inflation free, then? That's not the reason, same as it's never been the reason, nor will ever be.
That without even taking into account that inflation isn't the same in every country, of course.
It is indeed the general reason.
Obviously they can adjust more or less on certain items to give real terms rises or decreases around that, but we do not need them to explain what inflation is to us every year.
Vorian wrote: They're putting their prices up by ~4% when UK inflation is ~4%. How much of an explanation do they need to give?
Are paints inflation free, then? That's not the reason, same as it's never been the reason, nor will ever be.
That without even taking into account that inflation isn't the same in every country, of course.
It is indeed the general reason.
Obviously they can adjust more or less on certain items to give real terms rises or decreases around that, but we do not need them to explain what inflation is to us every year.
Not even GW has said so, and most (almost all) years their raises have not even a passing resemblance with inflation (plus, as said, inflation varies from country), so citation needed
Guys, everyone will rationalize as they can/want, but at the end of the day? GW raises prices because they can.
Replacement parts for their presses and the chemicals/raw materials used are probably sourced from overseas - at a minimum the inflation in those other countries will impact their costs.
Then on the other end of the supply chain, overseas inflation will impact their price-points. If inflation makes freight and shipping to warehouses, distro centers, and retailers more expensive, or makes their costs of doing business more expensive (because of wage increases, rising real estate costs, rising energy costs, etc. for example) then thats going to be reflected in how they set their pricing.
Also worth understanding how inflation is calculated. You can read about that here
So it’s not entirely precise. It doesn’t take into account how much manufacturing costs have gone up in a given period - only how much of any such increase is passed on to the end consumer. I.E. smelly little Herbert’s like me.
That can delay the impact of silliness like the mini-budget which set light to the UK economy. In short, if business A absorbed some of that impact to ensure better prices for its customers? It may not be able to do so further down the line when more regular economic pressures are floating about.
Also? Inflation Figures. creates no obligation on manufacturers. Whilst it’s nice when they do so, my employer isn’t required to up my pay in-line with inflation every year. If Company A wants to increase its prices by 20% for the hell of it, they’re entirely free to do so.
Not even GW has said so, and most (almost all) years their raises have not even a passing resemblance with inflation (plus, as said, inflation varies from country), so citation needed
The thousands of companies that raise their prices each year don't announce it each year. But it's inflation. This is not a secret.
My purchasing of GW product has really dwindled during the course of the last 3 consecutive price hikes. Not because I can't afford it, but because I find a lot of the pricing offensive.
The "Annual Price Hike" is the penalty for playing.
I remember when we were mad as hell about the increase of the infantry /troops to 25.00 a box. That was back in the days of 16 man box sets.
Lucky for me though I'm back to 2d and 3d edition figures, so they can increase those prices till the cows come home. The real problem comes to more shops shutting down, loss of gaming space, loss of interest.
GW had better start reading the tea leaves, because the terrain isn't 1990, anymore. Licensing only gets you attention, it doesn't keep you alive.
So it’s not entirely precise. It doesn’t take into account how much manufacturing costs have gone up in a given period - only how much of any such increase is passed on to the end consumer. I.E. smelly little Herbert’s like me.
That can delay the impact of silliness like the mini-budget which set light to the UK economy. In short, if business A absorbed some of that impact to ensure better prices for its customers? It may not be able to do so further down the line when more regular economic pressures are floating about.
Also? Inflation Figures. creates no obligation on manufacturers. Whilst it’s nice when they do so, my employer isn’t required to up my pay in-line with inflation every year. If Company A wants to increase its prices by 20% for the hell of it, they’re entirely free to do so.
For sure. Inflation isnt equalized. Some goods can go up 50%, while others actually decrease 50%. If that happens, your inflation rate is 0%. Just because an inflation rate is published at 4% doesn't mean that everything is going up only 4%, some things might be going up 2% while other things are going up 8%, etc. Thats just a generalized weighted average number based on a basket of common goods.
I don't buy anything from GW really, I get it all from FLGS with a 20% knock off. It'll get to a point where I feel even the 20% isn't enough which will be a shame but there it is. I don't know how people are getting by at the minute, everything is expensive.
IIRC they said the prices will increase an average of 4% - that doesn't necessarily mean that the prices in each market are increasing by the same rate or that all markets are seeing a 4% increase. It wouldnt be the first time that items in one area increased at a higher rate than in other areas.
Games Workshop is a lifestyle brand, that means customers are more engaged with their products and take greater interest in things like price hikes than they will if, say, mcdonalds announces a price hike on french fries.
Not even GW has said so, and most (almost all) years their raises have not even a passing resemblance with inflation (plus, as said, inflation varies from country), so citation needed
The thousands of companies that raise their prices each year don't announce it each year. But it's inflation. This is not a secret.
Most of inflation is companies arbitrarily raising prices for the hell of it, that's no secret either.
Again, it’s not something anyone has to like, but GW’s legal responsibility is to their shareholders. And that’s to maximise profits.
Now, there is more to that than just “slap a high price on it”. If you price yourself out of the market, your sales suffer and you can easily produce reduced profits as a result.
So if you increase by 4% (to use the announced one), but that results in a 5% drop in sales? You’re not maximising profits.
Naturally it’s all much more complex than that, but as a nutshell description it’ll work for this thread.
What we can add is that for decades now, certainly since I first joined Portent in what, 1998? People have been saying that this price increase is definitely the one to break the camel’s back. And it’s never really happened. In recent years, GW has seen serious and sustained year on year growth.
Doesn’t mean GW can’t still price themselves out of the market. But it does kinda go to show that GW know what they’re about, and seem to be getting it right.
That is simply not true and shows an utter ignorance of commercial laws. The Friedman doctrine is a theory of businees ethics not a legal obligation
GrosseSax wrote: My purchasing of GW product has really dwindled during the course of the last 3 consecutive price hikes. Not because I can't afford it, but because I find a lot of the pricing offensive.
Me too their arbitrous pricing is tough to get around especially when you see what people in Europe are paying for the same product, it is easily around 30-40% difference. I stopped buying most GW stuff.
With this price hike, only thing i may get is 40k 11th ed box set, holiday battleforces, and maybe an army release box, that is if I can even get them. Most of the time they sell out so fast and I have no desire to try to chase down a place to take my money or worry about getting a product. The whole allocation system they are using sucks, it rewards scalpers and i mean at this point they might as well just raise their prices to double, if they don't care about demand, that way the supply and demand will meet. They have already said their directive is only to make "X" amount of products in a one and done kind of scenario. Eventually it will go to MTO only through GW website and they can charge anything that people are willing to pay, which has been proven, can be any price.
New releases regularly sell out on the day of preorder. Older releases are regularly out of stock and there is a pre-existing system for getting email reminders of restocks. MFers are buying this stuff as fast as GW can make it.
If you're running a business and this is your reality, _not_ raising prices now and again would be an obvious mistake.
I spent many years thinking that GW would eventually price itself into bankruptcy, but they're still chugging along, and that's great.
The last "new" GW product I bought was the LotR movie stuff, so I'm not really affected, but I do find the move reassuring. In a world of turmoil, we can still rely on death, taxes, and GW raising its prices.
Commissar von Toussaint wrote: I spent many years thinking that GW would eventually price itself into bankruptcy, but they're still chugging along, and that's great.
The last "new" GW product I bought was the LotR movie stuff, so I'm not really affected, but I do find the move reassuring. In a world of turmoil, we can still rely on death, taxes, and GW raising its prices.
I must admit that i always tought the same. But kudos to GW, they are racking in absoluty insane profit. It shows how much kirby was mismanaging that com’any
They can't be using new capacity to only build new stuff, letting old stuff go out of stock to the point people can't buy stuff for weeks at a time.
Producing artificially low numbers of the new product to keep prices high.
kodos wrote: the reason I never started a Dark Eldar Army and Slaanesh Daemon Army in 7thE40k was because my orders vanished in the void as they were currently not available (which changed after I pre ordered) and were canceled after months (one via GW the other a 3rd party retailer)
7th edition 40K was 2014-2017. You cannot say GW products have always been out-of-stock, for 25 years, if your counter begins in 2014. Do you understand?
From the late 90's through ~2015ish there were not chronic availability issues. I believe the first time the problems became widely known was indeed during the 7th edition years, when GW had to start emergency-shipping products in the generic white boxes and people started to put 1+1 together. The seriousness of the problem has waxed and waned over the last decade, but in recent years it's been constant. Products out of stock for long periods of time, unknown restock dates, and inventory that is often immediately snapped up after a restock so that only the vigilant get what they want.
Nevertheless, uncredentialed British know-it-alls have been saying the same thing for 20+ years about GW, despite people regularly pointing out that they;re talking about an American paradigm. Contrarians regularly ask them for examples of equivalent British law and I don't think I've ever seen an explanation provided (although that doesn't mean one doesn't exist, for I am uncredentialed as well).
Commissar von Toussaint wrote: I spent many years thinking that GW would eventually price itself into bankruptcy, but they're still chugging along, and that's great.
The last "new" GW product I bought was the LotR movie stuff, so I'm not really affected, but I do find the move reassuring. In a world of turmoil, we can still rely on death, taxes, and GW raising its prices.
I must admit that i always tought the same. But kudos to GW, they are racking in absoluty insane profit. It shows how much kirby was mismanaging that com’any
I actually think GW focusing on there skirmish and side games has been huge for keeping people buying, and in the GW hobby. My little club has effectively dropped 40K, But Kill team was strong even through it’s decline. And Necromunda, old world are driving huge revival in GW sales locally. Even Age of Sigmar is seeing interest with a skirmish rebuild.
They have options for players, and that’s big!
MaxT wrote: I hope you write just as long posts about every other company you ever buy a product from every time they change their prices.
I’d think about it, but most companies I buy from seem to raise their prices every 10 years or so, not every year. AND they make all of their models (that I buy), in METAL. You know, that alloy that was so expensive, that GW had to move to plastics, and pass some of that sweet, sweet savings to its customers. LOL. And they’re stuff is in stock…
They can't be using new capacity to only build new stuff, letting old stuff go out of stock to the point people can't buy stuff for weeks at a time.
Producing artificially low numbers of the new product to keep prices high.
kodos wrote: the reason I never started a Dark Eldar Army and Slaanesh Daemon Army in 7thE40k was because my orders vanished in the void as they were currently not available (which changed after I pre ordered) and were canceled after months (one via GW the other a 3rd party retailer)
7th edition 40K was 2014-2017. You cannot say GW products have always been out-of-stock, for 25 years, if your counter begins in 2014. Do you understand?
From the late 90's through ~2015ish there were not chronic availability issues. I believe the first time the problems became widely known was indeed during the 7th edition years, when GW had to start emergency-shipping products in the generic white boxes and people started to put 1+1 together. The seriousness of the problem has waxed and waned over the last decade, but in recent years it's been constant. Products out of stock for long periods of time, unknown restock dates, and inventory that is often immediately snapped up after a restock so that only the vigilant get what they want.
Nevertheless, uncredentialed British know-it-alls have been saying the same thing for 20+ years about GW, despite people regularly pointing out that they;re talking about an American paradigm. Contrarians regularly ask them for examples of equivalent British law and I don't think I've ever seen an explanation provided (although that doesn't mean one doesn't exist, for I am uncredentialed as well).
Of course. But that judgements doesnt says that a corporation goal is to maximise profit. It said that a corporation has to work in the interest of its shareholder. Which can be interpreted numerous ways, and by no means mean a corporation has to maximise its profit, especially in the short term by price gouging its customers.
And has you said, this is a US ruling that is completely irrelevant to GW situation. In fact the UK Company Act pretty much explicitly states that theres no such legal obligation of profit maximization.
(1)A director of a company must act in the way he considers, in good faith, would be most likely to promote the success of the company for the benefit of its members as a whole, and in doing so have regard (amongst other matters) to—
(a)the likely consequences of any decision in the long term,
(b)the interests of the company's employees,
(c)the need to foster the company's business relationships with suppliers, customers and others,
(d)the impact of the company's operations on the community and the environment,
(e)the desirability of the company maintaining a reputation for high standards of business conduct, and
(f)the need to act fairly as between members of the company.
MaxT wrote: I hope you write just as long posts about every other company you ever buy a product from every time they change their prices.
No, but I do discuss it to death with my wife when my electricity company, oil company, and food prices go up every few months. If those had a populated forum that I frequented on a daily basis I would (probably) write long posts about them as well. In fact, the oil goes up and down daily and we often monitor it to catch the best deals and if there was a forum to catch the best offers, I'd be there as much as I'm on here!
Maybe not every time they change their prices as I'd be there doing it way more often than I would be here! The big difference is that I can't live without those things and they are unavoidable costs and very hard to lower. We attempted to lower our electric bill during the huge markups during covid, doing the full blown 'turn off every device when not in use, turn off lights when not in the room etc etc.' and it lowered the bill by about €1 per bill. Not at all worth all the hassle and worry.
But Gw/Hobby products have the advantage of seeing huge price hikes, but there being alternatives and huge ways to cut the costs to still be able to enjoy the hobby without spending the money GW demands. Being able to discuss it helps, the forum is advertising a lot of alternatives after all. Even purely sticking to GW games/models doesn't mean you can't save some money.
Altruizine wrote: You cannot say GW products have always been out-of-stock, for 25 years, if your counter begins in 2014. Do you understand?
I mentioned 7th 40k as reply to a specific mention of 7th
My counter begins with 5th fantasy (as mentioned above) and that was late 90ies
and getting certain model was a pain back in those days, like why I have 3 mortars and only a single cannon for my Empire Army, Cannons were always out of stock (and mail order a special experience)
Jammer87 wrote: Yeah, it actually makes sense when you look at it from GW’s perspective. Their paints live in a way more competitive market — Vallejo, Army Painter, Pro Acryl, Scale 75, even the random Amazon knock-offs. In terms of value and quality, GW can’t just jack the price up without people instantly jumping ship to something that’s basically the same or better.
Their models though? Totally different story. Like it or not, GW’s minis are head and shoulders above most of the competition. Sure, other companies make good sculpts, but GW’s sheer design volume, consistency, and brand pull are on another level. That gives them the leverage to push the prices up on plastic crack while keeping paints steady. Basically: paints are in the cola wars, minis are a monopoly on a really addictive flavor.
Smaller scales at the very least would beg to differ.
They also don't make great cars. What is the point you're trying to make?
Jammer87 wrote: They also don't make great cars. What is the point you're trying to make?
...exactly what I said? That they are not actually heads and shoulders above most competition when talking about small scales (re: LImps/AT), which GW actually makes, instead of cars?
I think that depends on what youre comparing. Epic scale infantry - GW is mid. Tanks - GW is better but maybe not head and shoulders. Titans/superheavy type stuff? Yeah, GW is on another level, more than just head and shoulders.
Honestly the infantry (mostly marines) are the only place GW lets themselves down at that scale.
Everything else GW are as good if not way better than their competition on that scale.
I think if you limit to sci-fi then GW is very much ahead of the game where most of the others are either just dipping their goes into plastics or are using much older metal casting methods.
I'd also say that artistically GW are very ahead of many others in this area in particular in sci-fi
chaos0xomega wrote: I think that depends on what youre comparing. Epic scale infantry - GW is mid. Tanks - GW is better but maybe not head and shoulders. Titans/superheavy type stuff? Yeah, GW is on another level, more than just head and shoulders.
Tanks are better detail wise, but the tradeoff is a million parts unfortunately :(. AT stuff I'll give them that, for sure.
Overread wrote: Honestly the infantry (mostly marines) are the only place GW lets themselves down at that scale.
Everything else GW are as good if not way better than their competition on that scale.
Unless GW started adding working running gear and rubber tracks to their vehicles, they're still pretty weak on the vehicle front.
I remember when the LotR models came out and people were shocked, stunned that GW could make figures with realistic proportions rather than clown-sized weapons and giant hands. I guess the rest of the ranges have caught up somewhat, but it's all relative. A model is just a representation on a map, and if I can buy three kit-bashable Tamiya tanks for the same price of one GW, I know where I'm going.
It's fun seeing people still arguing if they are "worth it," but obviously someone thinks so, or they'd have gone under.
I should clarify that I have bought GW models more recently than 2004 or whenever, but not from GW. Huge amounts of older models on the secondary market, and that meshes well with my 2nd ed. army collection. In fact, it adds to the charm to have those one-pose models, especially since I've gotten good enough to reposition them into all sorts of fun poses.
Yeah but GW aren't specifically competing with historicals - who I agree do often have an edge on fine details on smaller tanks.
But on the sci-fi front most others pale in comparison to what GW can produce. Granted its also a medium which is super niche so a lot of the competition is often "one man in his shed with a metal caster"
Jammer87 wrote: They also don't make great cars. What is the point you're trying to make?
...exactly what I said? That they are not actually heads and shoulders above most competition when talking about small scales (re: LImps/AT), which GW actually makes, instead of cars?
I think it’s worth pointing out that Games Workshop has never really positioned itself as the company for small-scale gaming. Their bread and butter has always been the 28mm range, where they’ve consistently pushed detail, design, and plastic kit engineering further than most competitors.
When they’ve dipped into smaller scales — Epic, Aeronautica, Adeptus Titanicus, etc. — it’s been very much a side project compared to the mainline Warhammer ranges. Those releases are sporadic, limited in scope, and clearly not the focus of their design studio or marketing machine. Meanwhile, companies that specialize in 6mm, 10mm, or even 15mm have built their reputations on decades of experience in those niches.
So, saying GW “doesn’t make the best small-scale models” is kind of missing the mark. They don’t really try to dominate that space. Their focus is on 28mm, and that’s where they put the overwhelming majority of their resources and creative energy.
GW sales growth is consistently strong, but I do genuinely wonder if they are close to pricing themselves out of the middle class kids market, and if so, how long till the impact of that bites (if at all?).
endlesswaltz123 wrote: GW sales growth is consistently strong, but I do genuinely wonder if they are close to pricing themselves out of the middle class kids market, and if so, how long till the impact of that bites (if at all?).
Honestly with Underworlds, Warcry, Killteam, Necromunda and Spearhead I think that's a lesser worry today than in the past. I recall in the 90s it was already a "very expensive kids hobby" for the middelclass.
Thing was back then killteam was a "well you use it to learn how to roll dice and then you play the proper game" system and the other systems weren't even around. If you were lucky you were born in one of the tiny windows where something like Mordhiem, Necromunda or Space Hulk were around, but by and large even they were limited impact because they were only there for a short while.
Today you've a whole host of well supported "mini" games that appeal to new and old fans in their own right. More than enough to keep kids entertained with one or two boxes of models and to keep in the hobby and steady grow.
People have been thinking that GW were close to pricing themselves out of their market since the mid-90s.
GW's pricing strategy hasn't really changed in that time, and the only time they were genuinely in danger of losing their market was during Jack 'otiose in a niche' Kirby's silliness, and that wasn't due to price but due to tipping the balance too far to focusing on pretty toys over gameplay.
Individual customers have certainly been priced out over the years. I'm one of them. But it's obvious that their pricing strategy works for them, if not for me. They've not lost their customer base... I'm just not a member of it any more.
Jammer87 wrote: They also don't make great cars. What is the point you're trying to make?
...exactly what I said? That they are not actually heads and shoulders above most competition when talking about small scales (re: LImps/AT), which GW actually makes, instead of cars?
I think it’s worth pointing out that Games Workshop has never really positioned itself as the company for small-scale gaming. Their bread and butter has always been the 28mm range, where they’ve consistently pushed detail, design, and plastic kit engineering further than most competitors.
When they’ve dipped into smaller scales — Epic, Aeronautica, Adeptus Titanicus, etc. — it’s been very much a side project compared to the mainline Warhammer ranges. Those releases are sporadic, limited in scope, and clearly not the focus of their design studio or marketing machine. Meanwhile, companies that specialize in 6mm, 10mm, or even 15mm have built their reputations on decades of experience in those niches.
So, saying GW “doesn’t make the best small-scale models” is kind of missing the mark. They don’t really try to dominate that space. Their focus is on 28mm, and that’s where they put the overwhelming majority of their resources and creative energy.
And yet GW is and has been BRUTAL in Epic scale.
6mm epic metal tanks back in 1997 were leagues better than any competitor back in the day, and even hold up today.
8mm epic LI plastic vehicles and knights/titans nowadays are WAY better (and more expensive too) than any competitor EVEN when those competitors have the advantage of being even bigger 10 or 12mm.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: GW sales growth is consistently strong, but I do genuinely wonder if they are close to pricing themselves out of the middle class kids market, and if so, how long till the impact of that bites (if at all?).
Former Till Monkey additional perspective. What follows is Factual, but is admittedly probably more Anecdotal than “proof”.
But don’t underestimate the will to spend of Middle Class Parents on things their kid enjoys. Multiple parents I chatted with in that past role said they were happy to pay, because At Least It’s Not Another Computer Game. Many were fond that whilst not exactly challenging in those spheres, the games got their kids reading and doing light maths in a way they enjoyed.
So….whilst my anecdotes there are multiple and consistent? I still wouldn’t say they’re proof like. But do go some way to explain why GW hasn’t priced itself out.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: GW sales growth is consistently strong, but I do genuinely wonder if they are close to pricing themselves out of the middle class kids market, and if so, how long till the impact of that bites (if at all?).
Former Till Monkey additional perspective. What follows is Factual, but is admittedly probably more Anecdotal than “proof”.
But don’t underestimate the will to spend of Middle Class Parents on things their kid enjoys. Multiple parents I chatted with in that past role said they were happy to pay, because At Least It’s Not Another Computer Game. Many were fond that whilst not exactly challenging in those spheres, the games got their kids reading and doing light maths in a way they enjoyed.
So….whilst my anecdotes there are multiple and consistent? I still wouldn’t say they’re proof like. But do go some way to explain why GW hasn’t priced itself out.
Im not even sure what is the main age group of the typical GW client these days.
It’s hard to be sure of course, as GW don’t break their financials down to that level for their reports. The best we get is Sales Channel and Territorial. But not age range, or even game range.
In recent years they have of course exploded in terms of takings, and so presumably popularity.
Part of that will of course be people entirely new to the hobby. Always has been, always will be.
But consider that I started in 1989 with HeroQuest. I’m now ill advised enough to be positively middle aged. And so are many of my contemporaries.
Most of us are now earning more money than earlier in our lives. Some have paid off mortgages, or have older, less cost intensive kids, which helps free up disposable income. Some will be expanding spending, others will be returning to the hobby. Of the latter they might be dusting off old armies, or they may be effectively starting over from scratch.
So there’s an awful lot of moving parts here. And I’m not at all sure the main source of income is newcomers. I’ve little doubt it’s a chunky percentage like. But how chunky? We’ve no solid way of knowing.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: GW sales growth is consistently strong, but I do genuinely wonder if they are close to pricing themselves out of the middle class kids market, and if so, how long till the impact of that bites (if at all?).
Former Till Monkey additional perspective. What follows is Factual, but is admittedly probably more Anecdotal than “proof”.
But don’t underestimate the will to spend of Middle Class Parents on things their kid enjoys. Multiple parents I chatted with in that past role said they were happy to pay, because At Least It’s Not Another Computer Game. Many were fond that whilst not exactly challenging in those spheres, the games got their kids reading and doing light maths in a way they enjoyed.
So….whilst my anecdotes there are multiple and consistent? I still wouldn’t say they’re proof like. But do go some way to explain why GW hasn’t priced itself out.
Been on the same position and... well, it really depends. As you say, anecdote is what it is. IME, working on three different stores over 5 years, location is wildly important on the general outlook of the parents.
While I worked on the store located near the wealthiest part of Madrid, parents were pretty much happy to pay whatever, for much the same reasons, plus also to have them stay in the store painting and playing (we had a Battle Bunker).
Once I was transferred to another store located inside a big shopping center located near one of what we call "sleeper cities"? (that's the then towns, now booming cities located surrounding Madrid, where most of the working people can actually afford to live in)
Well... there outlook on that regard changed dramatically, and parents were much less chuffed about the regular GW prices. In my personal anecdotical experience, that store had much less younger customers, age skewed a lot older, and (logically enough) customers usually fell in two categories: poeople that already knew GW and Warhammer, so were used to the prices, and people visiting the shopping center that wandered to our midst, and those were consistently a bit horrified of the prices.
Oh, yeah, and family of a kid looking for a birthday or christmas gift, those were always fun. Some because of their reactions to the prices, some because of how they asked for what they were told what to look for (like one grannie that wanted "A Garfield"... which ended up being a slann, but the painted example was orange, so...).
Vorian wrote: Same as its ever been and ever will be, young boys and their parents
I would not be so sure about that... the crowd is changing, kids of 20 years ago are not like the ones today and surely not the ones 10 years from now and I see a huge increment of women.
We dont have the data so sorry if Im sceptical about what you are saying.
Some of them feel like a tiny rise of only £1-2 or so - but there's a good few higher priced items going up by £5 which feels more marked. Esp the £100 going to £105
GW fans always seem obsessed with the idea of new customers being the key to the company's success, but the reality for Warhammer like for nearly everything else is that existing customers provide 90%+ of their revenue. The value OF a new customer over their lifetime can be very great and it's definitely a worthwhile activity to constantly be trying to bring them in.
After the Kirby debacle and exit they spent several years rebuilding, and that's where we got some awesome Warcry sets and Kill Team sets, new Necromunda, new Blood Bowl, new Warhammer Quests, but then they turned into an exploitation approach, they raised their profile and brought a bunch of people back, and now they're raising prices and offering less until they see signs of it cracking.
People who say they can't keep raising their prices faster than inflation forever are actually completely correct, they will kill their own business that way, that's Business 101 stuff. But given they've got a bunch of executives who went through Business 101, I'd assume they're probably going to pivot once we see the signs of the market cracking, and that's when they'll transition back into that 2016-2021 era of can't miss box sets, more creative ideas, occasionally listening to customers, better price per figure on bigger boxes with more figures, and so on. The cycle can't continue on forever, eventually people would need 1,000 models to make a 40K army, and even if they're paying $500 to get a box with 500 minis, it'll be too much, but nothing lasts forever, GW will keep cashing in for the foreseeable future.
to be fair, the new customer obsession is because that was, at one point, GWs business model. Like most things though, what was true 10-20 years ago isn't necessarily true today, but people get stuck in their thinking and stereotypes, etc. and don't necessarily keep up with the times.
frankelee wrote: GW fans always seem obsessed with the idea of new customers being the key to the company's success, but the reality for Warhammer like for nearly everything else is that existing customers provide 90%+ of their revenue. The value OF a new customer over their lifetime can be very great and it's definitely a worthwhile activity to constantly be trying to bring them in.
I don't know what % different customer blocks bring in; that said GW is certainly a mature firm who will have a significant adult fanbase. I think the reason we focus on younger generations is because wargamers are quite well aware that without new people the hobby dies; and for most of us its a serious enough hobby that we don't want to see that happen. And it happens very very easily. A good many hobbies can end up with a big adult fanbase and very little youth recruitment and its a slow death. The more of an age gap you get the harder it is to bridge it.
Plus don't forget many are now old enough to have their own kids and hope that they might follow in their parents footsteps and have support from others of their generation. Esp in an age where the youth are even more bombarded by electronics.
Vorian wrote: Same as its ever been and ever will be, young boys and their parents
I don't think that's true at all. The majority of people in the game are people who were kids and are now well into their 30s and back in the hobby. There are plenty of younger kids as well but I don't think that's the key demographic. There's a wealth of new people joining the hobby but they don't have a specific age group.
Vorian wrote: Same as its ever been and ever will be, young boys and their parents
I don't think that's true at all. The majority of people in the game are people who were kids and are now well into their 30s and back in the hobby. There are plenty of younger kids as well but I don't think that's the key demographic. There's a wealth of new people joining the hobby but they don't have a specific age group.
Yeah while GW are definitely making some effort to market to a new generation via a wider range of starter products & videos games, I'd be willing to bet that the biggest factor in GW's recent growth is middle-aged folks that now have some disposable income. GW have focused hard on nostalgia bait in the last decade; Horus Heresy minis that look like Rogue trade concepts, Blood bowl, TOW, Epic scale, Necromunda... they want to sell us the stuff we couldn't get with pocket money in the 90's.
Couple that with the 40k meta treadmill and it's a perfect recipe to draw £hundreds or even £thousands from individuals annually.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Some have paid off mortgages, or have older, less cost intensive kids, which helps free up disposable income.
Just to take minor umbrage with this specific bit - so far my kids have only got more and more expensive! Eldest is 17 now, and learning to drive, and bugger me I wish he was still into Warhammer instead. Driving lessons are monstrous now. I'm sure I remember my lessons back in 199[cough] were about £13 an hour. We're now paying £69 per 1.5 hours, or a bargain block of 10 for £660... And the little sod kerbed one of our alloys on his first practice session in our car over the weekend...
frankelee wrote: ... but the reality for Warhammer like for nearly everything else is that existing customers provide 90%+ of their revenue. ..
I'm curious as to where you're getting that figure, to be honest.
The thing is, those of us who interact with other hobbyists get a bit of a distorted view of what the market actually looks like. The reason GW has historically focused on the new customer is because in wargaming the new customer is more likely to actually spend money. For every grognard who is constantly adding to their collection, there's a whole bunch of others who have completed armies and rarely buy anything new, or don't even actually play any more and just hang around the forums out of habit. The newcomer, though, will walk in and buy a starter set, and an army, and books, and paints and brushes and glue and a tshirt... and then as likely as not tinker with it all for a few months and then never touch it again. And so they're replaced with the next newcomer to walk in the door.
Veteran players are a valuable resource for keeping a game visible and being played... but the newcomers are the ones more likely to actually spend the money.
At least, that's GW's view, and it holds up with what I've seen of gamers over the decades.
Vorian wrote: Same as its ever been and ever will be, young boys and their parents
I don't think that's true at all. The majority of people in the game are people who were kids and are now well into their 30s and back in the hobby. There are plenty of younger kids as well but I don't think that's the key demographic. There's a wealth of new people joining the hobby but they don't have a specific age group.
I don't know if the link takes you to the correct part of the video, but the relevant bit is from 13:22.
They do say it may have changed now and I guess they must be talking about data from 7 or 8 years ago, but their data then said it was mums buying for their kids.
The things they credit the boost in sales on, (reducing entry barriers, having affordable ways to start) would generally help more new people (ie a healthy % of kids) start and stick with the hobby.
So sure I guess bringing back some of us old people might have skewed the customer base a bit, but I think it's pretty safe to say that it has not turned the typical customer on its head.
Also lets face it - veterans don't need a staffer to sell them something; they are already coming to the store knowing what they want. Shop keepers will be pushing sales and encouraging and focusing on fostering new customers who need that early guidance, confidence, introduction and all. They don't have a network of gaming friends; or social groups or a bunch of other things to necessarily support them and help make/encourage those choices.
frankelee wrote: ... but the reality for Warhammer like for nearly everything else is that existing customers provide 90%+ of their revenue. ..
I'm curious as to where you're getting that figure, to be honest.
The thing is, those of us who interact with other hobbyists get a bit of a distorted view of what the market actually looks like. The reason GW has historically focused on the new customer is because in wargaming the new customer is more likely to actually spend money. For every grognard who is constantly adding to their collection, there's a whole bunch of others who have completed armies and rarely buy anything new, or don't even actually play any more and just hang around the forums out of habit. The newcomer, though, will walk in and buy a starter set, and an army, and books, and paints and brushes and glue and a tshirt... and then as likely as not tinker with it all for a few months and then never touch it again. And so they're replaced with the next newcomer to walk in the door.
Veteran players are a valuable resource for keeping a game visible and being played... but the newcomers are the ones more likely to actually spend the money.
At least, that's GW's view, and it holds up with what I've seen of gamers over the decades.
I think today we see that too... but also things we did not have before which shows a clear shot at existing clients and different demographic new groups.
- Loads of big new boxes for "specialist games" these boxes are in par of main 40k for price and models. Basically a vet with all 40K armies now has options to buy a lot more that did not exist before, consistent stream of kill team boxes, 30k etc etc aimed at nostalgia too.
- New armies like Votann. Everyone, vets and new clients will be interested equally since they did not exist in this form before... Also full model revamp armies like Aeldari etc I mean a VET will get all the new models no questions asked.
- Flip flop from AoS and Old world and WFB... They took it off then they replaced with something else and now it's back... these changes are to keep vets buying.
- Videogames crowd will want some models and those are from all age groups and other hobbies.
- Community influencers again this will bring other people in.
- A stronger painter based activities, twitch, YouTube, contrasts... now this alone has the potential to grow even more, but now they cater to artists and we see a huge increment of women here, and thats such a good thing for the community.
If you take away all those points above and just keep selling the exact same 40k armies to people over and over again then that would fit the narrative of Vets dont buy because there was nothing for them to buy. Thats not the case today.
Warhammer is still growing and in different directions so prices will be going up and up.
I suspect that the reality is that vets buy in spurts over a longer time period as there are things that interest them released, while the newcomer will drop more money in one go.
If there were no money in selling to veterans, the whole edition cycle would make no sense. When you have a full product range, you don't need to keep making new things if you're only selling to new customers.
But I do think that the money from newbies makes up a larger portion of the overall market than most veteran gamers realise.
Overread wrote: Also lets face it - veterans don't need a staffer to sell them something; they are already coming to the store knowing what they want. Shop keepers will be pushing sales and encouraging and focusing on fostering new customers who need that early guidance, confidence, introduction and all. They don't have a network of gaming friends; or social groups or a bunch of other things to necessarily support them and help make/encourage those choices.
There are ways and means
Sure, you’re not running them an intro game, or intro paint. But you can still do a painting lesson, or help them understand a rule.
For sales? Just polite conversation. If a customer you know? Ask about their specific army. Ask “you ok for glue and paints” at the till. Ask “find everything you wanted”.
It can all help get more money in the till.
And yes, Dear Dakka, a significant portion of that game is Knowing When To Just Shut Up. This is reflected in the training I did on my last turn as “Tell Them What They Need, Sell Them What They Want”. Specifically for newbies of course. But it can be adapted with some success to more established hobbyists.
It's an oversimplification, so you're best off searching for more information if you disagree, find exceptions, or I'm not explaining it clearly enough.
