Anvildude wrote:... I'm ashamed that anuvva Ork would ever say that.

You can tell the ultramarines are actually a squad of ultrawolves because they have two meltaguns instead of a missile launcher. No, they don't have the close combat weapon modeled on and no, that sergeant isn't actually there. Just use your imagination. They're led by a librarian using the wolf priest rules and you'll note my five missile launcher devastator squad. That's the one that can split fire. Ultramar is stronk.

Waagh.

ShumaGorath wrote:This is the apocalypse that I always feared. It's fortunate that I'll likely never play to see the dawn of every model being from a different codex since I suspect that unbeatable flying circus lists and rules written by a drunk will drive me out of the game well before that.

40k has always been a game where people are encouraged to write house rules and pay with whatever they like. Just as with FW items I would expect every game to start with "do you mind if I use X' because even without allies and FW there are some pretty OP characters out there that my opponent may not wish to face.

Bloodwin wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:This is the apocalypse that I always feared. It's fortunate that I'll likely never play to see the dawn of every model being from a different codex since I suspect that unbeatable flying circus lists and rules written by a drunk will drive me out of the game well before that.

40k has always been a game where people are encouraged to write house rules and pay with whatever they like. Just as with FW items I would expect every game to start with "do you mind if I use X' because even without allies and FW there are some pretty OP characters out there that my opponent may not wish to face.

I haven't had to regularly give permission for my opponents to use their armies since third. I've never been a fan of house rules or having to soft ban things in the game. If the game starts to break down and forces me to become the arbiter the rulebook should of been I'm not likely to continue to play. A lot of my local playgroup feels similarly. The game has already withered in this area, this edition could well be the nail in the coffin.

ShumaGorath wrote:You can tell the ultramarines are actually a squad of ultrawolves because they have two meltaguns instead of a missile launcher. No, they don't have the close combat weapon modeled on and no, that sergeant isn't actually there. Just use your imagination. They're led by a librarian using the wolf priest rules and you'll note my five missile launcher devastator squad. That's the one that can split fire. Ultramar is stronk.

Waagh.

Sounds legit. As a side note, the more allies rules and the second detachment are (ab)used in the first year, the more likely it is that the social and tourny norm will be to disallow them. Keep the ideas flowing on a regular basis!

I hadn't thought of "counts as" models for Allies....

<runs off to figure out who Orks can Ally with just so he can convert more models>

WangoFett wrote:Can someone explain to me why Lash of Submission requires a roll to hit (CSM FAQ) but Jaws of the World Wolf doesn't (SW FAQ)?

The same reason Target Locks(Tau) were removed and Fire Control(SW) was left intact, when both should have been FAQ'd to use the Split Fire USR. GW had the FAQs written by different people who weren't allowed to talk to each other, and half of them wanted to finish early to hit the bars.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Anvildude wrote:... I'm ashamed that anuvva Ork would ever say that.

You can tell the ultramarines are actually a squad of ultrawolves because they have two meltaguns instead of a missile launcher. No, they don't have the close combat weapon modeled on and no, that sergeant isn't actually there. Just use your imagination. They're led by a librarian using the wolf priest rules and you'll note my five missile launcher devastator squad. That's the one that can split fire. Ultramar is stronk.

Waagh.

Any ork worth two teeth would actually build orks/gretchin with WYSIWYG wargear, or at least with a weapon using identical stats.

Marines being repainted (if at all) for the new best codex isn't something that allies have brought upon us. I know a kid which uses grey/blue sanguine guard models as paladins.

A tournament I went to actually had an 'Ultramarine Space Wolves' army.

It was an ultramarines army with grey blobs painted over their shoulder pads.

protonhunter wrote:Of all the races to hate allies wouldn't Tau be the least likely to complain. I mean you guys are all about peace love and communism, why wouldn't you have a group of eldar to fill in the psykic gap you guys have. You had those kroot fill in your CC roles right. Just because they weren't printed in your codex doesn't mean they wouldn't chill with you. Even space marines are supposed to be the Tau protectors now so why wouldn't you find a group of random space marines helping the Tau...essentially I'm asking what's the diffrence between Kroot and SM allies?

Oh, the TAU would love to have the Eldar help them. The TAU would love to have 8ft tall genetically engineered supermen help them. But the TAU are unholy, Emperor cursed XENOS SCUM, and if you can't understand that, then you don't seem to understand how 40k fluff works, or why the humans are in the spot they are, or why the game has been this way for over 20 years. In otherwords, hey Mat Ward. How ya doin?

If anyone should have been BB with Tau amongst the Imperials, it would have been IG, as Gue'vesa have been an established part of their lore since the army was introduced. But instead, Guilleman apparently takes it upon himself to rewrite the Codex Astartes to let Tau be "A-Okay!" If the fluff also included the idea that the Ultramarines had just been branded Excommunicate Traitoris by the Ordos Xenos and Hereticus, then I'd actually be okay with it. But the truth is that it isn't just Ultramarines who are cool with it (and the change people see in Roboute is clearly him rolling over in stasis) but ALL OF VANILLA SM. That means any Codex compliant chapter (IE: any of them that don't have their own book) will gladly back Tau any day of the week. Sure, the Spacewolves may have horrific mutations, but at least they won't tolerate filthy Xeno superfriends.

Eldar at least makes some kind of sense. The Eldar have been approached on numerous occasions by the Tau for inclusion in the Empire, sometimes with a polite refusal, other times with horrific results (Urien Rakarth and the Tau's naive inability to see the difference in the various Eldar subcultures.) The Eldar see the Tau as energetic, idealistic, and sense in them a great destiny. Almost like a lesser form of their own Exodite cousins. Why not help the Tau out here and there?

And sure, I can just model my army to be consistent within the parent army even as parts of it come from different books. I'm already on that. I've contemplated modelling Morathi on a Reaver Jetbike along with other spell casting bits to create a Seercouncil on bikes. They'd be part of a secret cabal fostered by my Archon. Never brought to Comorragh, but kept well funded and safe until needed in his own little secret webway domain. I was going to use Rangers as the troops choice primarily as their fluff states quite explicitly that their rejection of the Path system takes them all over the galaxy in their travels.

I say, screw it. If they want fluff rape, I will GIVE them fluffrape. "Yes, here are Daemons in the "desperate alliance" with Dark Eldar. It's all Slaaneshi demons." "Here is my Tau Army with Marneus Calgar and his Retinue on Jump packs with Shas'o Fal'shia gue'la Bro'f'ist joining the squad." Then again, I could also try, "Here are my Samhain Eldar with this unit of 'Wraith Guard.' They use the Draigo and Paladin rules. They stand apart from the rest of the army because they just don't like them. Or they're Pathfinders or something. Yeah, that's it. And they got monkeigh TDA and decided to wear it."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Compel wrote:A tournament I went to actually had an 'Ultramarine Space Wolves' army.

It was an ultramarines army with grey blobs painted over their shoulder pads.

I might actually give props to someone who painted their army all black with nice highlights, then magnetized shoulderpads so they could swap them out for WYSIWYG so they could get the latest FOTM SM build.

yeah,

Nagashek wrote:

protonhunter wrote:Of all the races to hate allies wouldn't Tau be the least likely to complain. I mean you guys are all about peace love and communism, why wouldn't you have a group of eldar to fill in the psykic gap you guys have. You had those kroot fill in your CC roles right. Just because they weren't printed in your codex doesn't mean they wouldn't chill with you. Even space marines are supposed to be the Tau protectors now so why wouldn't you find a group of random space marines helping the Tau...essentially I'm asking what's the diffrence between Kroot and SM allies?

Oh, the TAU would love to have the Eldar help them. The TAU would love to have 8ft tall genetically engineered supermen help them. But the TAU are unholy, Emperor cursed XENOS SCUM, and if you can't understand that, then you don't seem to understand how 40k fluff works, or why the humans are in the spot they are, or why the game has been this way for over 20 years. In otherwords, hey Mat Ward. How ya doin?

I don't think the matrix had to be such a mirror image.
The matrix was a dumb idea, each army should just have had a list of allies. Like the x axis was the main army and the y axis who they could ally with.
Tau could have allied with just about everyone. while not every one accepts tau units into their army.

that way IG should have been allowed 'nid amonst their allies - purely for the genestealer cults. while 'nid armies still dont ally with anyone.

PAnic...

Nagashek wrote:
Oh, the TAU would love to have the Eldar help them. The TAU would love to have 8ft tall genetically engineered supermen help them. But the TAU are unholy, Emperor cursed XENOS SCUM, and if you can't understand that, then you don't seem to understand how 40k fluff works, or why the humans are in the spot they are, or why the game has been this way for over 20 years. In otherwords, hey Mat Ward. How ya doin?

We all know that Ward is secretly Slaanesh. I mean, seriously, he's like a serial rapist loose in a women's prison with a Viagra IV.

Now we have catgirls in game. What next, Female Space Marines? (And if it is, do I get to laugh manically and drink the sweet, sweet tears of fatbeards as they ragequit the game?)

Panic wrote:yeah,

Nagashek wrote:

protonhunter wrote:Of all the races to hate allies wouldn't Tau be the least likely to complain. I mean you guys are all about peace love and communism, why wouldn't you have a group of eldar to fill in the psykic gap you guys have. You had those kroot fill in your CC roles right. Just because they weren't printed in your codex doesn't mean they wouldn't chill with you. Even space marines are supposed to be the Tau protectors now so why wouldn't you find a group of random space marines helping the Tau...essentially I'm asking what's the diffrence between Kroot and SM allies?

Oh, the TAU would love to have the Eldar help them. The TAU would love to have 8ft tall genetically engineered supermen help them. But the TAU are unholy, Emperor cursed XENOS SCUM, and if you can't understand that, then you don't seem to understand how 40k fluff works, or why the humans are in the spot they are, or why the game has been this way for over 20 years. In otherwords, hey Mat Ward. How ya doin?

I don't think the matrix had to be such a mirror image.
The matrix was a dumb idea, each army should just have had a list of allies. Like the x axis was the main army and the y axis who they could ally with.
Tau could have allied with just about everyone. while not every one accepts tau units into their army.

that way IG should have been allowed 'nid amonst their allies - purely for the genestealer cults. while 'nid armies still dont ally with anyone.

PAnic...

That's exactly the solution I was thinking, and for the same reasons. Let IG ally with Nids (No one would do it for anything but Genestealer cults anyway, and how much fun would it be to blow off the dust on your Armored Limo and use the Chimera rules?) Let IG FREELY team up with CSM or Daemons, but only BB with CSM when CSM is your base. This would represent a LATD army getting CSM support, summoning daemons, etc, a CSM army getting cultist support (looking at you, Alpha Legion!), but when Daemons ask for help, the cultists find it a little hard to show up on the other side of the galaxy... or IN THE WARP in time. And, if they cared about 3e fluff, the necrons could be in a desperate alliance with everyone (except eldar, DE likely wouldn't care. That particular tradition given to them by the old ones doesn't seem to matter) as their motivations are their own. Maybe today they want to harvest humans and help the Orks. Maybe tomorrow they want to help Tyranids wipe out a Tau colony in order to scour life from a Tomb World. No one can ever ally with them, though, because they always turn on you...

The Tau should have been desperate allies with SM (and disallowed for the BTs); in previous fluff, Imperials have been known to form pragmatic alliances with the more tolerable xenos if, say, there's a Chaos Warfleet about to land on an Imperial system with a Tau outpost in.

adamsouza wrote:I hadn't thought of "counts as" models for Allies....

<runs off to figure out who Orks can Ally with just so he can convert more models>

Your ignorance was strength. The concept of people saying "hm, I want grey hunters, but don't want to have any space wolves, time to convert a tac squad!" is repulsive to the fluff and gameplay.

ph34r wrote:

adamsouza wrote:I hadn't thought of "counts as" models for Allies....

<runs off to figure out who Orks can Ally with just so he can convert more models>

Your ignorance was strength. The concept of people saying "hm, I want grey hunters, but don't want to have any space wolves, time to convert a tac squad!" is repulsive to the fluff and gameplay.

The entire allies concept is, for the most part, repulsive to the fluff and gameplay.

Sigvatr wrote:

ph34r wrote:

adamsouza wrote:I hadn't thought of "counts as" models for Allies....

<runs off to figure out who Orks can Ally with just so he can convert more models>

Your ignorance was strength. The concept of people saying "hm, I want grey hunters, but don't want to have any space wolves, time to convert a tac squad!" is repulsive to the fluff and gameplay.

The entire allies concept is, for the most part, repulsive to the fluff and gameplay.

^This. Been reading through the main rulebook and the only instance which I can see which presents the possibility of Tau and SM being battle brothers is when,mid-battle with each other, they awoke a Necron Tomb World and temporarily joined forces to fight the bigger threat. Apparently Calgar let the Tau evacuate their ground forces from the planet before launching Exterminatus. That sounds more like Allies of Convenience to me.

I'm with Sigvatr and Malus (the hidden Jam fan?) - I don't like the idea behind the whole Allies thing, and I certainly don't like the allowable pairings and levels they came up with!

A Space Marine letting Xenos evacuate before Exterminatus? That's above and beyond Allies of Convenience.

Alpharius wrote:I'm with Sigvatr and Malus (the hidden Jam fan?) - I don't like the idea behind the whole Allies thing, and I certainly don't like the allowable pairings and levels they came up with!

Oh no, my secret is revealed!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Anvildude wrote:A Space Marine letting Xenos evacuate before Exterminatus? That's above and beyond Allies of Convenience.

Only as a sign of respect for the Tau's skill at war.

Later on the Ultramarines are noted as having "liberated" an Imperial world from Tau control so Allies of Convenience is more accurate than battle brothers.

They were OK fighting with them when there was a greater threat but after that it's business as usual. Battle Brothers seems more like a permanent alliance, which is impossible unless the Imperium starts giving up its worlds to the Tau expansions freely.

To be fair, the ultramarines tend to like letting the Tau evacuate places before exterminatus....

ph34r wrote:

adamsouza wrote:I hadn't thought of "counts as" models for Allies....

<runs off to figure out who Orks can Ally with just so he can convert more models>

Your ignorance was strength. The concept of people saying "hm, I want grey hunters, but don't want to have any space wolves, time to convert a tac squad!" is repulsive to the fluff and gameplay.

That example would just be extreme laziness on someones part. I was thinking more like captured Imperial Guard Units fighting for Orks, or Tau allies with more Tau Looking gear, etc...

adamsouza wrote:

ph34r wrote:

adamsouza wrote:I hadn't thought of "counts as" models for Allies....

<runs off to figure out who Orks can Ally with just so he can convert more models>

Your ignorance was strength. The concept of people saying "hm, I want grey hunters, but don't want to have any space wolves, time to convert a tac squad!" is repulsive to the fluff and gameplay.

That example would just be extreme laziness on someones part. I was thinking more like captured Imperial Guard Units fighting for Orks, or Tau allies with more Tau Looking gear, etc...

The example will be the most common form of allies. Codexes might as well not even exist.

Sidstyler wrote:

5. I don't even want to dignify that with a response, but that's like saying "It's okay that all of our CC options suck, because now we can take a Blood Thirster!" What in god's name is the point of Kroot then? I'll just take Eldar Rangers or SM scouts if I need infiltrate/outflank and Assault Marines if I need CC. Bad design is bad design, and as much fun as some people might find it, Allies is an obvious cash grab at worst, and a patch for poorly designed books at best.

Allies in a nutshell, and obviously what GW planned when they introduced the rules in the first place. You can't let imbalance like the one that exists between xenos and Space Marines go on for too long if you don't want people to get bored and quit your bs game for lack of variety and obvious favoritism (because no matter how big of a fanboy you are, SM vs. SM battles will get old), which, combined with ever-ludicrous prices that just keep getting higher, is probably attributing to a loss of sales. So what's the easiest way to fix that? Let all the whiny xenos who don't have this or can't deal with that take something from another codex that can. Boom. "Fixed."

Sad thing is it probably will work, it probably will help balance things out a little better and sell more models...but at what cost? How many people out there are really happy with the idea that their pure Tau or pure Eldar armies can no longer function in a competitive environment without having to borrow units from another army? I'm sure as hell not. It opens the way up for some cool themed forces, like traitor Guard with Daemon allies, or that Ultramarines with Macragge Planetary Defense Force that was showcased on "What's New Today", or Chaos Space Marines being able to take actual daemons again (zomg just how it should have been all along!!11), but for some of us it's just going to lead to bs, nonsensical alliances that we have to make out of necessity, or just shelve our armies. Like Tau and Orks, Dark Eldar and Daemons, Dark Eldar and Space Wolves, Grey Knights and any xenos, etc.

So in a way the allies rules still benefit Imperial players the most, because not only does it help them but it's easily justifiable in the background and makes sense. For xenos it's necessary for survival but really hard to justify in a lot of cases, and will no doubt get you a lot of crap from donkey-cave players who don't (or simply don't want to) understand why you have to break the fluff.

I'll accept allies because in order to keep playing the game I kinda have to, but this is seriously the biggest load of crap and really goes to show just how increasingly lazy and uncaring GW is becoming about their product. WHF 8th was a mess as far as I'm concerned. Finecast really needs no explanation. And now 40k 6th, while certainly looking better than WHF 8th did, is not doing much to instill my confidence in this company. I'm tired of paying top dollar (seriously, $80 for that fething book, are you gaking me?) and feeling like I'm getting ripped off. I guess, like most aspects of the hobby, I'm just "doing it wrong", though. I shouldn't be judging the book based on its content but rather how pretty it looks.

This sentiment is very similar to what I've been trying to convey in this thread. Allies serves SM players who want, say, Railguns in their armies, for example. Are allies fluffy? Mostly only by a stretch of imagination. DE, Tau, etc. are not satisfied with being 'allowed' to forge dopey-ass alliances to become competitive. But apparently wanting their army balanced was too much to ask, so here we are...

Allies probably wouldn't be that bad if the armies themselves were balanced. I feel like GW expects me to thank them for their generosity in allowing my lowly xenos to include space marines... As if that's what I always wanted.

If I had to make the allies matrix I would have made it MUCH less liberal.

Well I plan to use Valhalan allies with my Space Puppies (more for the air cover...).

Mick

Archonate wrote:
This sentiment is very similar to what I've been trying to convey in this thread. Allies serves SM players who want, say, Railguns in their armies, for example. Are allies fluffy?

Allies is one of the oldest concept in 40k - they were around longer than they were not.

I don't think they're going to be as gamebreaking as people think. For example, your SM player wants Railguns in his army. So he buys a Broadside team. That will come mighty useful, no doubt. Alas, he will also have to buy Tau HQ and a troop, which are much less useful to him. Does the whole exercise make his army actually better? Doubtful. I'm sure some 'broken' combos exist but for most part, mono-armies will probably be more cost-effective, at least under 2000 points.

After all, it's not so long since, for example, any Guard player could add Grey Knights or Sister of Battles to his or her army, and did the world end there? Nope...

Would it really be worth adding a Tau HQ and Troop Choice, just to get a Heavy Choice with RailGuns ?

I don't think this will be as bif of a problem as people are imagining it will be.

adamsouza wrote:Would it really be worth adding a Tau HQ and Troop Choice, just to get a Heavy Choice with RailGuns ?

I don't think this will be as bif of a problem as people are imagining it will be.

Doubtful. I suspect the majority of bad scenarios that people will encounter with allies will involve a pairing of a powerful HQ along with a cheap or powerful troops unit, which are the mandatory choices. An eldar farseer with a ranger squad might fit the bill as does a space wolf rune priest with a grey hunter squad are the two that come to mind for me personally. Both provide a large bubble of psychic defense (tablewide for the farseer, 24" for the SW priest) as well as a solid troops choice. Even though I don't like the allies rules, I'd consider taking one of them for my otherwise vulnerable tau and IG.

The eldar one is the most effective, others that ive seen have been deathcompany added to guard to give it melee defense. None of the combos are broke though. I play nids and bt primarily so I doubt I will do alies anytime soon.

warboss wrote:

adamsouza wrote:Would it really be worth adding a Tau HQ and Troop Choice, just to get a Heavy Choice with RailGuns ?

I don't think this will be as bif of a problem as people are imagining it will be.

Doubtful. I suspect the majority of bad scenarios that people will encounter with allies will involve a pairing of a powerful HQ along with a cheap or powerful troops unit, which are the mandatory choices. An eldar farseer with a ranger squad might fit the bill as does a space wolf rune priest with a grey hunter squad are the two that come to mind for me personally. Both provide a large bubble of psychic defense (tablewide for the farseer, 24" for the SW priest) as well as a solid troops choice. Even though I don't like the allies rules, I'd consider taking one of them for my otherwise vulnerable tau and IG.

Epidemius and a squad of plaguebearers.

Or, if you really want to be cheap. Nurglings. Cheapest Troop Tax EVER.

warboss wrote:

adamsouza wrote:Would it really be worth adding a Tau HQ and Troop Choice, just to get a Heavy Choice with RailGuns ?

I don't think this will be as bif of a problem as people are imagining it will be.

Doubtful. I suspect the majority of bad scenarios that people will encounter with allies will involve a pairing of a powerful HQ along with a cheap or powerful troops unit, which are the mandatory choices. An eldar farseer with a ranger squad might fit the bill as does a space wolf rune priest with a grey hunter squad are the two that come to mind for me personally. Both provide a large bubble of psychic defense (tablewide for the farseer, 24" for the SW priest) as well as a solid troops choice. Even though I don't like the allies rules, I'd consider taking one of them for my otherwise vulnerable tau and IG.

Yes, or armies which can get really powerful troop unit - for example, Warboss + bunch of Nob bikers to support a Guard or Tau army. Time will tell if they really make powerful combos.

Real silliness starts with 2000 points, with double FOC. There you can see things like Space Wolves taking 8 different HQ's. You can squeeze many Rune priests there. Or Green Tides with around 300 Ork boyz...

Backfire wrote:
Yes, or armies which can get really powerful troop unit - for example, Warboss + bunch of Nob bikers to support a Guard or Tau army. Time will tell if they really make powerful combos.

Real silliness starts with 2000 points, with double FOC. There you can see things like Space Wolves taking 8 different HQ's. You can squeeze many Rune priests there. Or Green Tides with around 300 Ork boyz...

I can't see why they wouldn't be good. If nob bikers plus warboss on bike (or draigo plus paladins) are good on their own as deathstars, I suspect they're good as deathstars in a force that lacks their own (like tau or IG).

Did they ever FAQ that Farsight and Shadowsun can't be taken outside of a points limit, and if not, would it be alright to bring them theoretically as allies?

Cause 60 points for a minimum sized Firewarrior squad is a small price to pay for up to 11 Crisis suits. Farsight's bodyguards are a Point-And-Click unit mostly. They're hard to position, and hard to keep safe, but it would be nasty to have them backing up my Chaos Space Marines.

I got Chaos Space Marines, and I got Tau. Both are kinda incomplete, but now I got a way to use them together so I don't have to buy more models/paint/supplies/etc.

Obviously, it was a scheme to sell more models. Gamesworkshop says they primarily are a model company, not a Rules company, so there isn't some big conspiracy-cause they aren't trying to hide that they are trying to get as much money as they can from us, and they want to give us incentive to Buy Moar Stuff so they will nerf the stuff that everybody has 6 of (Carnifexes, most likely Crisis suits and CSM Daemon Princes in the future) to get us to buy the New Hotness.

Where the scheme falls short is people like me, who have two armies that can run together just fine, and can indeed support each other pretty well.

I don't have to buy a Devastator box and "Make them Horny" (convert to chaos) since I can get Autocannons and Safe Plasma on a manuverable platform-I got the suits to spare, so I can dedicate 3 to my Chaos Space Marines, along with one of the Stealth Teams that just sit around and don't get used, and every tau player has an excess of drones. We have enough drones that if we could field them in comprable units, they'd probably outnumber Imperial Guard Blob squads with bodies on deck (or hovering above...)

Yeah some of the stuff is goofy from a fluff perspective but they are trying to get the guys who are FOTM Marine guys to maybe stay as Codex Marines to get better benefits with Tau, buy more stuff and all that noise.

Hehe. about the Drones. A friend and I were looking at the old 4th Ed (or earlier? 3rd? The one before the current one) Tau Codex, and we realized it was possible to take an army consisting of about 100 Drones of various kinds. It was incredible.

The doubled FOCs is really going to make this version Herohammer like back in the day. Lots of independent characters beating wholesale butt...

Nagashek wrote:
Oh, the TAU would love to have the Eldar help them. The TAU would love to have 8ft tall genetically engineered supermen help them. But the TAU are unholy, Emperor cursed XENOS SCUM, and if you can't understand that, then you don't seem to understand how 40k fluff works, or why the humans are in the spot they are, or why the game has been this way for over 20 years. In otherwords, hey Mat Ward. How ya doin?

I would not complain about it, i would not say a word about it... But hell, you asked...

Dont like the fluff changes? Ok, stay with the fluff you like, tell the others your fluff view when that affect the game (or even when not, is nice to talk about fluff), and have fun explaining how your fluff affect the fluff of a game. You are a space marine player facing tau allied with space marines? Those space marines are obvious traitors, they betrayed the emperor and must die, you opponent will come with an "excuse" for the alliance, and you will be very fluffywise telling him your Space Marine Captain dont believe in it, and will like to tear the throat of the traitors commander. See? Brothers fighting themselves due to slight mistakes of interpretations, that is 40k.

And I was not here in the last 20 years, at least i was not here playing the game... But tell me, it is not true that orkz where hired as mercenaries once? And space marines where not "super soldiers", but just Sorm Troopers with better equipment? The fluff have been twisted and destroyed a lot of times in video-games, books, RPGs and the game itsellf. You are acting like one of those guys who say "i will not play Space Marine TM (the video game), because the bolter there shoot like a machinegun, and we all know that in fluff they shoot fist sized rockets at lower fire rate".

Feel happy if you beloved xonophobic super soldiers now can ally with xenos... Your chapter dont accept that, and like the great majority of them, condemn the practice. Feel happy, at least your favorite race has not been wiped out from the scenario (like squats), or you have no way to play your favorite faction (like genestealers cults).

About Count'as allies: well, lets keep the rule of cool, your Ultramarines have "allied space wolves" just to use cheap missile launchers, a rune priest and a squad with 2 melta's? No problem for me, but make it look good, make the unit make sense, and make his presence fun. Better yeat, make them a "not so conservative" faction within your army, who actually see the Codex Astartes as a guide (not a rulebook), madel them as slightly less disciplined (they have no sarge around!!!). I must say that ork players will bring lots of cool conversions for it... I would even let you play with your genestealer allies in that IGenestealer Cult, it is fluff wise enough. Lets use the rule of cool...

This is a great opportunity for me as I never went all in with any faction. I probably own about 1k points for every army but sisters and GKs.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:The doubled FOCs is really going to make this version Herohammer like back in the day. Lots of independent characters beating wholesale butt...

I don't buy it. The big problem this edition is going to be a 2+ save, especially for characters. Most of the time they could rely on going first and beating down models by ignoring their armor saves. Even Draigo and Mephiston, with all of their power, will bounce off even a unit of Tactical Terminators since their weapons are AP3. Even then, you just feed them a sacrificial sergeant and they are relegated to killing a single model that turn!

If anything I see this edition moving away from uber close combat heroes, but more towards support characters like Psykers, and lots of spamming of powerful non-HQ FOC choices like flyers, long fangs, etc.

Of course you could argue that it's Characterhammer since Wolf Guard and all that can do directed shots.

Oh, the TAU would love to have the Eldar help them. The TAU would love to have 8ft tall genetically engineered supermen help them. But the TAU are unholy, Emperor cursed XENOS SCUM, and if you can't understand that, then you don't seem to understand how 40k fluff works, or why the humans are in the spot they are, or why the game has been this way for over 20 years. In otherwords, hey Mat Ward. How ya doin?

I wonder what you would have been like if you had been around the time when humans and eldar could breed together, and that was one of the original eldar plans to repopulate their race, back in RT.

Or when the Emporer wasn't dying, he was just asleep from exertion.

Vladsimpaler wrote: Even then, you just feed them a sacrificial sergeant and they are relegated to killing a single model that turn!

No, the excedent wounds of any chalenge are not lost, they are redirected into the unit, so, its more probable tha YOU will chalenge the sarge with PF, and see your opponent thinking about it (very unlikely chance to stroke blows with the boss, or make the sarge run for his life?).

Close combat HQs with dedicated units can do a good job...





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ZebioLizard2 wrote:
I wonder what you would have been like if you had been around the time when humans and eldar could breed together, and that was one of the original eldar plans to repopulate their race, back in RT.

Or when the Emporer wasn't dying, he was just asleep from exertion.

Holy Godess!!! Fluff changes!!!! Run for your lifes!!!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Blokus wrote:This is a great opportunity for me as I never went all in with any faction. I probably own about 1k points for every army but sisters and GKs.

You luccky one

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote: Even then, you just feed them a sacrificial sergeant and they are relegated to killing a single model that turn!

No, the excedent wounds of any chalenge are not lost, they are redirected into the unit, so, its more probable tha YOU will chalenge the sarge with PF, and see your opponent thinking about it (very unlikely chance to stroke blows with the boss, or make the sarge run for his life?).

Close combat HQs with dedicated units can do a good job...

You may want to check out the several threads in YMDC dedicated to that question as that is quite debatable.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/459779.page

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote: Even then, you just feed them a sacrificial sergeant and they are relegated to killing a single model that turn!

No, the excedent wounds of any chalenge are not lost, they are redirected into the unit, so, its more probable tha YOU will chalenge the sarge with PF, and see your opponent thinking about it (very unlikely chance to stroke blows with the boss, or make the sarge run for his life?).

Nope, the exceding wounds isn't put on the squad or anything, it just counts towards the combat results.

So even if your HQ only kills one model, he win the fight 1-0.

Yeah, i read it in disbelif. Make no sense. I foresee it to be FAQed (or not at all).

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:
Holy Godess!!! Fluff changes!!!! Run for your lifes!!!!

It isn't that the fluff is changing, its that the fluff changes run counter to all the Grim Dark goodness that drew us in to the hobby in the first place. Well, all the Grim Dark fluff prior to Matt Ward's GM character fap fest.

What really has changed, other than them shoe horning in Dark Eldar, Necrons, and Tau ?

And who wouldn't want a sweet little harem of Eldar Babes ? Other than having the Inquisition torture and execute you, it seems little a pretty sweet deal.

Archonate wrote:If I had to make the allies matrix I would have made it MUCH less liberal.

If I had made the Allies matrix I would have made it so that you have to agree to use them with your opponent beforehand, which would stop people going "BUT YOU HAVE TO PLAY ME, IT'S IN THE RUUUUULES!"

I fail to see why an allies matrix was needed in the first place.

DarkStarSabre wrote:I fail to see why an allies matrix was needed in the first place.

Because it maeks more people buy more tha none army so they can use it as an ally....dirty and under-handed marketing tactics from GW...

DarkStarSabre wrote:I fail to see why an allies matrix was needed in the first place.

Balancing each army out individually takes time and effort.

Making a half-assed allies matrix that completely screws any fluff over takes about 30-60 min.

More time to count money.

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:If I had made the Allies matrix I would have made it so that you have to agree to use them with your opponent beforehand, which would stop people going "BUT YOU HAVE TO PLAY ME, IT'S IN THE RUUUUULES!"

To which the correct response is "Show me where in the rules it says I have to play you."

The army may be legal, but outside a tournament, there is nothing saying player A has to play player B, as far as I'm aware - you can always choose to go play Player C, for instance.

Dysartes wrote:

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:If I had made the Allies matrix I would have made it so that you have to agree to use them with your opponent beforehand, which would stop people going "BUT YOU HAVE TO PLAY ME, IT'S IN THE RUUUUULES!"

To which the correct response is "Show me where in the rules it says I have to play you."

The army may be legal, but outside a tournament, there is nothing saying player A has to play player B, as far as I'm aware - you can always choose to go play Player C, for instance.

Translation: "There's nothing in the rules that says that I have to play 40k"

ShumaGorath wrote:

Dysartes wrote:

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:If I had made the Allies matrix I would have made it so that you have to agree to use them with your opponent beforehand, which would stop people going "BUT YOU HAVE TO PLAY ME, IT'S IN THE RUUUUULES!"

To which the correct response is "Show me where in the rules it says I have to play you."

The army may be legal, but outside a tournament, there is nothing saying player A has to play player B, as far as I'm aware - you can always choose to go play Player C, for instance.

Translation: "There's nothing in the rules that says that I have to play 40k"

If someone is trying to claim there is a clause in the rules which means I have to play them after I've expressed a desire to play without allies, then they're going to have to provide a rules reference to support their claim. Outside of a tournament - where I have agreed to abide by whatever the TO has described in the rules pack - there is nothing preventing me from walking away from a particular game because of the use of allies, just as if I didn't like the opponent.

I must be the bad guy for taking the Mastery Level 4 Ahriman. I lost the game horribly.. but much fun was had.

Gate + Molten Beam + Puppetmaster on a melta gun = two dead tanks on different sides of the board.

Dysartes wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Dysartes wrote:

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:If I had made the Allies matrix I would have made it so that you have to agree to use them with your opponent beforehand, which would stop people going "BUT YOU HAVE TO PLAY ME, IT'S IN THE RUUUUULES!"

To which the correct response is "Show me where in the rules it says I have to play you."

The army may be legal, but outside a tournament, there is nothing saying player A has to play player B, as far as I'm aware - you can always choose to go play Player C, for instance.

Translation: "There's nothing in the rules that says that I have to play 40k"

If someone is trying to claim there is a clause in the rules which means I have to play them after I've expressed a desire to play without allies, then they're going to have to provide a rules reference to support their claim. Outside of a tournament - where I have agreed to abide by whatever the TO has described in the rules pack - there is nothing preventing me from walking away from a particular game because of the use of allies, just as if I didn't like the opponent.

You might have missed the point:

Allies allowed as default:
You're being unreasonable, if you demand that others play with Your house rules.
If agreed on previously, it's fun to play with house rules.

Allies as optional/ask your opponent:
Your opponent is unreasonable, if he demands to be allowed to use allies.
If agreed on previously, it's fun to play with optional rules.

6th edition has made allies as an official part of the game -> You would be making unreasonable demands on your opponent.

Brometheus wrote:I must be the bad guy for taking the Mastery Level 4 Ahriman. I lost the game horribly.. but much fun was had.

Gate + Molten Beam + Puppetmaster on a melta gun = two dead tanks on different sides of the board.

Pity he's only Mastery Level 3.

Chrysis wrote:

Brometheus wrote:I must be the bad guy for taking the Mastery Level 4 Ahriman. I lost the game horribly.. but much fun was had.

Gate + Molten Beam + Puppetmaster on a melta gun = two dead tanks on different sides of the board.

Pity he's only Mastery Level 3.

This. It's in the FAQ.

I was making a joke because of page 3 discussion about Black Staff plus Mark of Tzeentch.

That is how we play him in house rules until new book, anyways. This wasn't against someone random

adhuin wrote:You might have missed the point:

Allies allowed as default:
You're being unreasonable, if you demand that others play with Your house rules.
If agreed on previously, it's fun to play with house rules.

Allies as optional/ask your opponent:
Your opponent is unreasonable, if he demands to be allowed to use allies.
If agreed on previously, it's fun to play with optional rules.

6th edition has made allies as an official part of the game -> You would be making unreasonable demands on your opponent.

...I think his/her point was "If you don't like playing against people with allies, you can always choose to say 'no thanks' to them when they ask for a game."

Forcing them to play as you want, in either direction, would be unreasonable. But removing yourself from a game is not.

Person 1: Sorry I don't want to play you because you are a racist jerkoff who breaks my figures by rolling your oversized dice at them.
Person 2: YOU CAN'T DO THAT! I HAVE PERFECTLY LEGAL FORCE!!!!!111!!!
Person 1: Oh, I see that you do. My apologies, lets start rolling our cubes now.

Vain wrote:...I think his/her point was "If you don't like playing against people with allies, you can always choose to say 'no thanks' to them when they ask for a game."

Forcing them to play as you want, in either direction, would be unreasonable. But removing yourself from a game is not.

That's pretty much what I was getting at, Vain, yes.

Archonate wrote:If I had to make the allies matrix I would have made it MUCH less liberal.

I would have made a lot MORE liberal. The rules should not enforce the fluff... That is the wrong way. The players should enforce the fluff and use the rules that way.

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:

Archonate wrote:If I had to make the allies matrix I would have made it MUCH less liberal.

I would have made a lot MORE liberal. The rules should not enforce the fluff... That is the wrong way. The players should enforce the fluff and use the rules that way.

Those are some serious high apple pie in the sky hopes you got their, Mr. Half Glass Full. Unfortuantely, rules exist because people need explicit direction even when the intended actions are very clear in the fluff. In the end, I'm ok with them making allies a part of the game but would have strongly preferred if they were an integral part of larger games only, along with the 2nd FOC (like 2001+ pts), and optional/opponent's permission in smaller ones (2000 and under).

Ah, Retrohammer mixed in with Herohammer/apoc/Dawn of war for the tabletop. Everything old is new again basically. BUT prices in RT days and 2nd ed were so much cheaper. (2 landraider Mk-I's for 25bucks was awesome!)

adhuin wrote:6th edition has made allies as an official part of the game -> You would be making unreasonable demands on your opponent.

Quite. However, since one is allowed to concede at any time, including before deployment, you can just go "Fine, I've 'played' against you, now go away."

Dysartes wrote:

Vain wrote:...I think his/her point was "If you don't like playing against people with allies, you can always choose to say 'no thanks' to them when they ask for a game."

Forcing them to play as you want, in either direction, would be unreasonable. But removing yourself from a game is not.

That's pretty much what I was getting at, Vain, yes.

There could be social costs involved:

Depends on social event. Random pick ups at the store? Sure choose your opponent based on use of allies, likeability or any other criteria.
Organized play in store -> Probably can get away with it. Ruining gaming night for a person, whose designated opponent you were.
Gaming night at friends place -> Now you're just ruining friends nights. If you do this enough maybe they try fill paired # players without you.

adhuin wrote:

Dysartes wrote:

Vain wrote:...I think his/her point was "If you don't like playing against people with allies, you can always choose to say 'no thanks' to them when they ask for a game."

Forcing them to play as you want, in either direction, would be unreasonable. But removing yourself from a game is not.

That's pretty much what I was getting at, Vain, yes.

There could be social costs involved:

Depends on social event. Random pick ups at the store? Sure choose your opponent based on use of allies, likeability or any other criteria.
Organized play in store -> Probably can get away with it. Ruining gaming night for a person, whose designated opponent you were.
Gaming night at friends place -> Now you're just ruining friends nights. If you do this enough maybe they try fill paired # players without you.

Costs?

Let's look at your scenarios.

Random Pick Ups in a store - if someone is a tit bringing allies and trying to spring them on people then he deserves to get no games. Had a guy here once do it with an armoured company, deliberately trying to get games with Orks and other anti-armour light armies.

Organised play in store/gaming night - Depends on what the rules set in advance are. Otherwise it's a pick up game with That Guy. Doesn't matter otherwise.

Gaming at a friend's place - I should hope you communicate with your friends and make them vaguely aware of things like this and they do the same. To invite you over and go SURPRISE! ALLIES! DERP! is not the sort of thing friends would do in my experience.

As allies (and fortifications) are now an option in creating forces surely saying you don't want to play against someone who uses them is like saying you don't want to play against someone who uses heavy support, fast attack or elite choices?

Mick

DarkStarSabre wrote:Random Pick Ups in a store - if someone is a tit bringing allies and trying to spring them on people then he deserves to get no games. Had a guy here once do it with an armoured company, deliberately trying to get games with Orks and other anti-armour light armies.

The other two points I am fully behind you, this one not so much, but mainly for calling him a tit for bringing allies. That is like calling him a tit for having a Landraider and not wanting to play against him coz you have 0 anti-tank.

Option X is in the rules as a default. You wish to not play him/her because of their inclusion of Option X (for whatever reason, fear, distrust, paranoia, douchiness, legitimate concerns, whatever) that is cool, but far from needing to call them names about it.

Cherry picking opponents however like that Armoured Comp guy, that is bad form indeed.