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Hello all,

Longtime lurker, first time posting. I have an upcoming tourney where 65% of my opponents are MEQ lists, and the other 35% are a mix of Nid and Necron. I've slightly altered the standard Mech Eldar list to accomodate more starcannon. What I'm slightly worried about is opponents that field multiple land raiders/monoliths, and my lack of multiple anti-(heavy)tank units. What I would like is to hear your opinions on my list, and let me know if there are any changes you would make and why. Also, there is a possibility that I may go up against a new ork list or two, which begs the question, is 2 dire avenger squads enough anti-horde?

Thanks in advance for your input.

HQ
(1) Farseer - 205pts
-jetbike, runes of warding, runes of witnessing, spirit stones, Doom, Fortune, Guide

Elites
(6) Fire Dragons - 96pts

(6) Harlequins - 162pts
-all w/ kisses, shadowseer

(6) Harlequins - 162pts
-all w/ kisses, shadowseer

Troops
(10) Dire Avengers - 152pts
-exarch, twin shurken catapults, bladestorm
(1) Wave Serpent (transport) - 165pts
-starcannons, shuriken cannon, vectored engines, holo fields, spirit stones

(10) Dire Avengers - 152pts
-exarch, twin shurken catapults, bladestorm
(1) Wave Serpent (transport) - 165pts
-starcannons, shuriken cannon, vectored engines, holo fields, spirit stones

Fast Attack
(1) Vyper - 125pts
-starcannon, shuriken cannon, holo fields, spirit stones

Heavy Support
(3) Falcon - 615pts
-scatter laser, shuriken cannon, vectored engines, holo fields, spirit stones

Its seems to be a cookie cutter Eldar list.

The problems I see with the list is that you don't have enough Vipers to protect the rears of your falcons and wave serpents, and that the Farseer on a jet bike seems to be an easy target for a good portion of the armies that see tournament play.

I never like these kind of lists because once you do your initial shooting/assault you better hope that you do enough dammage to your opponent or the retaliation will take out a good chunk of your ground forces.

Holo-fields on Wave Serpents are a no-no.

Dire Avengers are absolutely horrid.

Harlequins are also horrid.

Most of the guys at my local hobby shop mirrored what you said Negative. What is wrong with hiding the farseer behind/between the 2 waveserpents? Is there any quick response alternative to the jetbike/farseer, since I hate waiting a turn after disembarking to doom/guide my dire avengers. Is the only safe alternative to pick up a footslogging HQ to hide in a vehicle?

Also, the holo-fields on the WS were typo's. My friends reccomended I take the cheapest vypers I could find to guard the hatches on the falcons. The list rebuilt with that in mind would look like:

HQ
(1) Farseer - 178pts
-jetbike, singing spear, runes of warding, runes of witnessing, spirit stones, Doom, Guide

Elites
(6) Fire Dragons - 96pts

(6) Harlequins - 162pts
-all w/ kisses, shadowseer

(6) Harlequins - 162pts
-all w/ kisses, shadowseer

Troops
(10) Dire Avengers - 152pts
-exarch, twin shurken catapults, bladestorm
(1) Wave Serpent (transport) - 165pts
-starcannons, shuriken cannon, vectored engines, spirit stones

(10) Dire Avengers - 152pts
-exarch, twin shurken catapults, bladestorm
(1) Wave Serpent (transport) - 165pts
-starcannons, shuriken cannon, vectored engines, spirit stones

Fast Attack
(3) Vyper - 150pts
-shuriken cannon

Heavy Support
(3) Falcon - 615pts
-scatter laser, shuriken cannon, vectored engines, holo fields, spirit stones


In regards to stelek, I assume you are being sarcastic, at least about the harlequins. However, you are not the first person to say that about the DA's, and I honestly can't understand why. 2 ten man squads disembarking, bladestorming for over 60 shots seems like enough concentrated firepower to wipe out everything but the biggest squads (orks/nids). I am loathe to pick up rangers for the lack of mobility. My alternatives are guardian squads, and even with the heavy weapon, I just can't justify it trumping bladestorm.

I am well aware of the awful cookie-cutter'ness of the list. In most scenarios I play a mix of mech and footslogging troops. But, this will be the first entry-fee tournament i've played in, and thusly I'm not against cheesing myself out if it will increase my odds of success.

i like your list .. its similar to one of my friends list

i would recommend ..
drop the dire avengers in the serpants, both squads, in favor of 3 man jet bike squads with cannons

this should free up enough points for you to put in 2 squads of warp spiders making your army very mobile and much more deadly

I was not being sarcastic about the Harlequins. They are ineffective against all the armies I run.

The reason DA are ineffective is simple. I can blow your wave serpents apart first turn, and if you've come out and dropped them to shoot at me--the DA units die, then the Wave Serpents. 60 shots is indeed quite alot. The problem is, once you are done shooting--that's 4 units (2 vehicles and 2 troops) that are going to get lit up, and lost to you.

Seems a bad trade, irregardless of what casaulties you might think you'll inflict--it's always alot less.

By the way, if you are planning on dumping 60 shots into say a squad of marines--what about the other marines who will likely hit YOU with quite a few shots, that wound you easier while you have a poorer save?

Of course, any template weapon makes short work of DA once they get out.

Go with Jetbike units. They are far superior.

I've no idea why you need to 'guard' your hatches on your Falcons. And why you think Vypers will do so, they are deadly in numbers but with just Shuricannons....why are you chasing 615 points carrying 300 points with a 150 point shot of useless vehicles?

You can't really get the hang of the Eldar army without quite a few unfriendly games under your belt. Getting your arse handed to you in tournament play is IMHO a good way to learn the list.

By the way, what good is having a footslogging HQ in your vehicles? You can't use your psychic powers so you might as well be on a Jetbike.

Personally I use Maugen Ra, he isn't 'vulnerable' to any tournament army as long as your Falcons are alive. The same is true for a Eldar Farseer. Just don't hug your vehicles, crafty opponents with templates can pick him off. Of course, I'd skip the Farseer and go with a Phoenix Lord or Autarch myself. Your list lacks a real nasty character, which against so many armies is extremely valuable. Fuegan, Maugen Ra, and Yriel are all really good choices--they don't suffer the S4 weakness of so many characters, and can tackle vehicles with ease in close combat or shooting. Yriel is a little weaker than the other two, but hey do what you will.

-Stelek, in regards to the DA's, if you replace them with jetibikes, are you keeping them in small squads, ie 4 bikes, 1 cannon? I just see the jetbikes getting shot to pieces just as fast as the DA's, and with a couple casualties breaking and fleeing 3D6 off the table. Also, with 12" on the regular guns, how do you prevent them from being torn up in assaults? I've only ever fielded a 3 man jetbike squad before, and its usually the first unit to die. So what makes the jetbikes more survivable?

In regards to the Harlequins, are you referring to the "massacre one squad, then get annihilated by shooty enemies the next" syndrome? I've used both my harlequins in combination to great effect, usually clearing 3-5 large squads out before they're gone. What could possibly render arguably the most potent close combat troops in the game ineffective? This one really puzzles me. If you didn't take the harlequins, who would you load in the other 2 falcons along with the 1 falcon of FD's.

Finally, i'm a little confused about the Vypers. As Negative mentioned earlier, they can guard the hatches of the falcon, and with the falcon/harlequin rush, dumping your falcons in the middle of your enemy risks your opponent moving a single troop to the rear and negating any passenger dropoff. You mention Vypers being nasty in numbers, but are you referring to loading as many cheap shuricannon Vypers you can into your list? I've always known that even tricked out the Vypers are still made of paper. so they seemed kinda like sacrificial lambs.

So, in summation, if I drop my DA's, how do I make up my anti-horde shootyness? If I drop my Harlequins, what do I replace them with that in any way shape or form is as lethal? Where do I pick up heavy hitters that don't drop in turn 1-2? How am I to use jetbikes, and in what quantity, to make them effective, and are they effective against anything but basic line troops? It seems like as much vulnerability, minus the starcannons (mounted on the WS) and minus the initial 18" omfg 30+ shot bladestorm.

Thanks for sharing your wisdom.

Stelek:

I was not being sarcastic about the Harlequins. They are ineffective against all the armies I run.

Experience differs. My Harlies are MVPs.

What are the armies you run, by the way?

The reason DA are ineffective is simple. I can blow your wave serpents apart first turn

Maybe, maybe not. They're fragile, but not that fragile. Considering that Falcons have no need to hide once they get moving, it is often possible to terrain hop with the Serpents' 24" move, limiting the amount of firepower they receive.

and if you've come out and dropped them to shoot at me--the DA units die, then the Wave Serpents. 60 shots is indeed quite alot. The problem is, once you are done shooting--that's 4 units (2 vehicles and 2 troops) that are going to get lit up, and lost to you.

You say that as if every model in your army had a weapon with infinite range that killed an infantry model in one shot. The reality is that if the DA and Serpents hit a flank, it isn't the case that every single model in the opposing army will be able to take shots at them.

By the way, what good is having a footslogging HQ in your vehicles? You can't use your psychic powers so you might as well be on a Jetbike.

What are you talking about? His Farseer is on a jetbike.

Eldar Jetbikes can move, fire, and hide. I use 3 bikes+1 cannon. They should never take casaulties. It's how you play them.

If someone has mobile assault troops, exactly how does a Vyper prevent them from getting on your hatches and preventing you from getting out? Also, since you can spin the entire model, get out your troops, and then move away and re-orient the entire model--why do you need to do this in the first place??

What unit can get around the entire Falcon? A bike unit, perhaps. Seems like that's something you should take advantage of.

I use my Jetbikes and my Falcons to shoot hordes to pieces. You use Starcannons, I use Scatter lasers.

As far as your Harlies--they are by no means the most effective CA unit in the game. The fact that you think so says alot about the calibre of players you face. Please don't take that the wrong way, it's simply been my experience that T3 troops with a 5+ save and only numbering 6 models are easily dealt with in the assault phase. ALL, yes ALL, of my armies can brush them aside. You want something dangerous that doesn't require you to rely on some very odd tactics and army choices to 'deliver'? Me, I use all Fire Dragons. They have a longer threat range, and unlike DA or Harlequins you can use them against ANYTHING in the game--and they'll deliver death every time.

"Eldar Jetbikes" have S6 shots and a 24" move. What tanks can't you hurt on their side armor? LR's, Demolishers, and Monoliths? Gee, those don't seem so scary if you have Fire Dragons.

I'll post my Eldar list, maybe that'll help. Mind you, it isn't my BS Eldar list, but it has a theme and it's very very good.

Stelek:

If someone has mobile assault troops, exactly how does a Vyper prevent them from getting on your hatches and preventing you from getting out?

By physically blocking them, maybe?

Also, since you can spin the entire model, get out your troops, and then move away and re-orient the entire model--why do you need to do this in the first place??

You can't do this. Rotation is movement, so 1) the troops that get out can't assault that turn and 2) having disembarked them, you can't go back and move the transport again.

This is basic stuff, Stelek.

I use my Jetbikes and my Falcons to shoot hordes to pieces. You use Starcannons, I use Scatter lasers.

Here I agree. Starcannons are generally an inefficient choice.

To tegeus:

Armies I run? Yes. I have run everything but DH and Necrons.

Wave Serpents really are that fragile. They don't have holo-fields, and it isn't hard to glance them. I dunno, I never had a problem blowing them up.

I don't setup my armies stupidly when facing Eldar. Give them no flank, no terrain, and no place to hide--and they can zip around the board all they like, but they still have to come to me to do any damage.

He asked if he should run a footslogging HQ, I assume he meant to mount it in a WS or Falcon. Since the farseer would be off the board, no powers could be used--and he was complaining about that as a issue. If he's not in something but he's walking, that limits the distance you can move your Falcons and still be supported by your Farseer. That's what I'm talking about there.

Wave Serpents really are that fragile. They don't have holo-fields, and it isn't hard to glance them. I dunno, I never had a problem blowing them up.

Hm, okay. Like I said, I know they are rather fragile, so it could be we're just quibbling over degree.

I don't setup my armies stupidly when facing Eldar. Give them no flank, no terrain, and no place to hide--and they can zip around the board all they like, but they still have to come to me to do any damage.

Every army has a flank by definition. Even if you deploy in a big lump, DAs shooting at the left-most unit from max range are simply not going to be in double-tap range of the right-most units.

No terrain? No place to hide? How do you accomplish this? Your opponent is supposed to get to deploy half the terrain, after all.

He asked if he should run a footslogging HQ, I assume he meant to mount it in a WS or Falcon.

Ah, right. I must have missed that, sorry.

Wow, it's basic stuff? Really?! You *can* do exactly what I said.

I don't *use* assault troops in my Falcons, so my apologies for thinking as if it was my army and who cares about getting out and assaulting.

Personally I'd love to see Vypers sitting behind a Falcon. Unless you're going to teach me just how invulnerable Vypers are, you blow them apart and assault THROUGH them to reach the Falcons hatch.

Since I've only seen that kind of stupidity once, I've only had to do it once.

This isn't a tactic, this is giving your opponents gifts!

My opponent gets to deploy half the terrain? lol what rule is this? Who's playing a maxed out Eldar army in a friendly game? Trying to lose friends?!

I'm not too worried about firing bolters (or any other rapid fire weapon) at a DA unit. Heavy weapons do nicely, but even those armies where I DO have the option to double tap...can put enough fire out when needed to reduce the DA by light weapons fire.

I consider Wave Serpents 'fragile' when exposed to enemy fire. If all you have are two WS, they'll get shot down. If you have 4 WS, it usually means most armies can't shoot them all down in a single turn. Two turns, however, is normal.

I have a love hate relationship with fire dragons. While yes, they can tear anything up, it seems that if I try to use them on anything but heavy vehicles they get massacred next turn. I drop them off my falcon, they shoot, eliminate 2-4 enemies on average, then get shot-assaulted-decimated. That is if I try to use them to eliminate heavy infantry. My harlequins on the other hand almost always eliminate 5 enemies per assault, and then consolidate onto the remaining, which protects them from shooting. I then hit and run, assault charge again, and rinse, lather, repeat. I just can't see how you use FD's with such success when the range on their guns is assault range for your enemies.

The jetbike move-shoot-hide thing is all well and good, but I found that unless the board was overcrowded with terrain, I really only could use the cannon, since the catapults had such gimpy range. Trying to get within 12" of an enemy, which also happened to be within 6" of some more cover seemed like a crapshoot.

I've had people tell me not to use DA's before, but you are the first to tell me to forget the harlies.

Tegeus-Stelek: What is the census on the Vypers, should I keep them for falcon hatch protection? Should I weaponize them more? get rid of them entirely?

How many 3 man jetbike squads do you run with? the 2 bare minimum?

You could take an Autarch with your Dire Avengers, or even two. I don't think your Farseer is going to be very effective (considering the high points cost), and you don't have anything to hide it behind other than disembarking Dire Avengers.

Dire Avengers in WS are fine, especially when there is three falcons on the table. If they shoot your WS your Falcons get to shoot, if they shoot the Falcons your Dire Avengers rock hard.

And a WS is a reasonably durable transport anyway. It's still an AV12 skimmer.

I posted my army list for you. At 1850 or 2000 points, I have more Guardian Jetbikes. Usually 4 or 5 units.

Tacobake, he can hide his Farseer as long as the other mechanized units are closer to the enemy. Granted he isn't very effective.

You have to ignore the Falcons the first turn, and down the WS. It's alot of points, and gives the Eldar player a real problem after the first turn as the rest of the army is pinned or destroyed....time to focus on the Falcons.

I don't know about anyone elses army, but I can beat down mech lists. It's like opening gifts every time a transport goes down.

Vaelar wrote:
The jetbike move-shoot-hide thing is all well and good, but I found that unless the board was overcrowded with terrain, I really only could use the cannon, since the catapults had such gimpy range. Trying to get within 12" of an enemy, which also happened to be within 6" of some more cover seemed like a crapshoot.

I've had people tell me not to use DA's before, but you are the first to tell me to forget the harlies.

Yes, that's correct. You can (and should) only use the Cannon. It may not do much, but since it's almost impossible to attack the Jetbikes--so what? Free shots, even crappy BS 3 ones, are still really good on mobile units no one can shoot.

I tried Howling Banshees, Harlies, and Fire Dragons.

Only Fire Dragons were consistent.

Take a look at the army lists I posted. Do you think you can take those armies apart with 12 harlies? (I can assure you, you can't with 18).

Stelek: with 18 FD's, how do you utilize them without losing them the turn after (much like what you described with the DA's?) The rest of your army is mobile enough to avoid counter-fire, but six shots to hit at 12" range means at most you can get 6 kills per squad while at the same time leaving the FD's at the mercy of a large portion of your opponents army. 6 harlequins with 24 attacks means you will average 4 rend kills, with the potential for much more. Plus with hit and run, as well as fleet, if my oponent tries to overwhelm them, they need only survive the initial attack, after which I get them out of there.

Also, are you using shining spears for anti-armor? even with lances str 6 still doesn't seem like enough of a guarantee, excluding the exarch of course.

Stelek:

Wow, it's basic stuff? Really?! You *can* do exactly what I said.

Bull. You can't rotate, disembark, then move the transport again. There are only two times you get to rotate:

1) During movement. (pg. 61)

2) In the shooting phase if you didn't move in the movement phase. (pg. 64)

If you've been doing this at GTs, I'm amazed no one's called you on it before.

Post the question on YMDC. See for yourself.

My opponent gets to deploy half the terrain? lol what rule is this? Who's playing a maxed out Eldar army in a friendly game? Trying to lose friends?!

Not all tourneys have the same set-up rules. If we're talking an FLGS tourney (which I think we are; how else would the OP know the composition of his opponents so well?), there is every possibility that set-up will follow the standard method.

And if the terrain is pre-deployed, your comment that you'd ensure that your opponent gets no terrain and nowhere to hide becomes even more puzzling.

I'm not too worried about firing bolters (or any other rapid fire weapon) at a DA unit. Heavy weapons do nicely, but even those armies where I DO have the option to double tap...can put enough fire out when needed to reduce the DA by light weapons fire.

But not enough to do the same to jebtikes? Am I missing something here? Don't tell me they're JSJing, by the way--you're not setting up such that they have anywhere to hide, remember?

Personally I'd love to see Vypers sitting behind a Falcon. Unless you're going to teach me just how invulnerable Vypers are, you blow them apart and assault THROUGH them to reach the Falcons hatch.

Since I've only seen that kind of stupidity once, I've only had to do it once.

This isn't a tactic, this is giving your opponents gifts!

Okay, I do agree with you here. For such an unreliable return, it really is not worth the trouble and points to use Vypers in this way. (Or to use Vypers at all. . . .)

Ah I see what I wrote. My apologies, I wasn't thinking of moving, disembarking, then moving. That's a DE trick.

Let's see, moving and hiding--you can stop players from having 'safe assault' on you when you deploy. That's what I mean by not having terrain to hide behind. I don't care if they sit in, or jump around it, so long as they can't pile up behind it and guarantee assault me.

Shooting...well, if the Falcons aren't out there where I can shoot them, what are they doing? Hiding on the other side of the board? You really can make it so it's impossible to fight AND hide. Preventing a sneak assault is all I really care about.

FYI I've only played in one Tourney where I was allowed to place terrain. Almost every tournament disallows it, including the ones I run.

Vaelar wrote:Stelek: with 18 FD's, how do you utilize them without losing them the turn after (much like what you described with the DA's?) The rest of your army is mobile enough to avoid counter-fire, but six shots to hit at 12" range means at most you can get 6 kills per squad while at the same time leaving the FD's at the mercy of a large portion of your opponents army. 6 harlequins with 24 attacks means you will average 4 rend kills, with the potential for much more. Plus with hit and run, as well as fleet, if my oponent tries to overwhelm them, they need only survive the initial attack, after which I get them out of there.

Also, are you using shining spears for anti-armor? even with lances str 6 still doesn't seem like enough of a guarantee, excluding the exarch of course.

I attrition my foe away. The Fire Dragons usually don't go on the board until turn 5 or 6. They take down small units of 1-3, or reduce previously weakened units to below half.

If I'm facing tough vehicles (LR's, Monoliths) I drop the Fire Dragons on them. Usually, this doesn't happen as you don't often see LR's or Monoliths in triplicate, where they are indeed dangerous. At least not in tournaments.

The Fire Dragons are throw away units. They will always do what I want them to. I don't need to 'hope' my Falcon doesn't get surrounded, or my enemy counters my impending assault by moving his troops around. The Fire Dragons drop down and kill stuff. Even the best Harlequin result depends entirely on being able to assault.

The problems with Harlequins are many. They are S3. They are T3. They only have a 5+ save. They can't run across the board, they must be transported. Only Falcons are truly survivable, so you can only have 6 of them. If you think this is a great unit, you need to play better players. Setting up in anti-Eldar formation is natural for me, but I know alot of players that setup a congo line. Believe me when I say you'll lose your Harlequins the minute I get a turn at them on the board.

Are Fire Dragons more survivable? Only marginally. However, BS4 Fire Dragons will shoot 3 marines dead, pretty much every time. Harlequins are about equal to Genestealers or DE Wyches in terms of an assault, but if you really look closely you'll see Genestealers and Wyches are superior.

Genestealers have a higher S, so more wounds will be inflicted.
Genestealers have a higher T, so fewer wounds will be taken.
Wyches reduce the number of attacks coming in, reducing the number of wounds taken.
Wyches have a better save in close combat, further reducing the number of wounds taken.
Both these units will hit you on a 3+. Granted, Harlequins will hit on a 3+ against most troops; just remember these two troops types are better than your Harlies.

Having rending is good, ignoring difficult terrain is good.

Having to assault without having a virtually guaranteed way of assaulting where you want to, is IMHO their drawback.

You can hide 30 Stealers behind a wall of TMC almost 3 feet across, threatening assault up to 9" from any point of the wall.

Wyches can run a first turn assault on just about anyone. Worse if they get the 12" assault move....then there's no hiding.

Anyway I'm just saying the DE and the Nids have better CC troops, more of them, and the ability to outshoot an Eldar army.

Tossing 12 Harlies into an army that isn't TAU will, against most players, be successful. Against experienced players, they won't be successful.

12 Genestealers and 12 Wyches can take on a stunning amount of troops and win because they are their only real opposition.

Harlies and Howling Banshees have to assault, and bunch up (which makes you vulnerable to counterassaults and shooting). Fire Dragons can sit in a wide arc around one unit, and eliminate it. If there's a Falcon in between the FD and the enemy, it's very difficult to assault them without jump or bike troops. I guess it all comes down to playstyle. I don't setup my army in long lines, inviting flank assaults nor getting 'rolled' by small elite CC units.

Stelek:

I like Maugan Ra, and the idea has my fancy, but if vypers are a waste of points, would it be advantageous to stick another HQ with Maugan on foot? Perhaps Eldrad, or even an Avatar to soak up any fire? Feugan is alright, but with only 18" on his firepike doesn't seem like he'll be seeing as much action as Maugan, and therefore almost not worth the cost. The same holds true with Yriel. As for sticking an Autaurch on a bike, do you use him with your spear squad as CC shocktroops? Which reminds me, how do you use your spear squad? I'm not sure I can justify them if you use them any differently than regular jetbikes, then you're paying a premium for BS4.

Well, you can if you want to but at 150-200 points for a Eldar HQ, I'd stick with just one.

Eldrad won't have a bunch of units around him to use his psychic powers on, and for me that doesn't justify his points cost.

Fuegan isn't as shooty as Maugen Ra is, but if you are worried about Land Raiders he kills them quick. S9+2D6 at 15" (incl his move) and hitting on a 2+ is nasty. S6+2D6 in close combat also rips vehicles a new one.

Yriel is good because unlike Eldrad, he has 5 attacks on the charge....and he's I7 with plasma grenades. He's also an autarch, and in a Eldar army like mine having an Autarch means you'll get your army in on time from reserves.

My Autarch is essentially another shining spear. He doesn't join them, he just rides along to help assault.

5 WS6 S6 I7 attacks, followed by 3 WS5 S6 I6 attacks, completed with 8 WS4 S6 I5 attacks...kills dead most tournament armies counter attack unit. Don't forget you can shoot with the lances or the TL cats before you charge, adding in even more attacks.

A real neat trick is zapping a armor 12 or higher vehicle with the Exarchs lance shot, and since you can only glance...odds are you won't kill. Then charge that vehicle as primary, sending one of the regular guys at it, and secondary charge a troops unit nearby. You still do alot of damage, but you can also try and knock out a vehicles shooting...and since if it does not have a WS, you can ignore it in CC.

Essentially they are great against high save units. I usually have the Autarch zap the side of a troops unit, killing the 2 or 3 guys there; and put the rest of the squad into the middle. This means the spears take the attacks back, and if the enemy stays in combat; the spears can hit & run while the autarch stays stuck in with the remnants. If he doesn't kill them or get killed before your next assault phase, you can sweep whatever was there with a 2nd charge, and get ready for another charge elsewhere.

A seer council on bikes is one of the toughest units in the game, I like the spears because against everyone else, they kick alot of tires.

Ok, a compromise, assuming I can't bring myself to completley part with the Harlequin's or DA's, i've hybridized the list taking into account Stelek's advice.

Total: 1992pts

HQ
Maugen Ra -195

Elites
(6) Fire Dragons -96
(6) Fire Dragons -96
(6) Harlequins - 162
-all w/ kisses, shadowseer

Troops
(10) Dire Avengers - 152
-exarch, twin shurken catapults, bladestorm
(1) Wave Serpent (transport) - 165
-starcannons, shuriken cannon, vectored engines, spirit stones
(3) Jetbike Squad -76
-shuriken cannon
(3) Jetbike Squad -76
-shuriken cannon
(3) Jetbike Squad -76
-shuriken cannon
(3) Jetbike Squad -76
-shuriken cannon

Fast Attack
(4) Shining Spears -207
-exarch w/ starlance, shuriken cannon, withdraw

Heavy Support
(3) Falcons -615
-scatter laser, shuriken cannon, vectored engines, holo fields, spirit stones

Give it a few test runs, and don't forget to ask people to bring their A game.

Every player plays differently, so getting the hang of the army the way you play it is key to getting your own A game out of a new army.

Btw, TL Bright Lances help make the WS more useful. Pulse Lasers don't take on LR's very well. My LA GT list had a Vyper with a BL. Not the best of tank busting, but if you run into a LR it keeps the other player honest. A WS does a better job simply because it might hit. I wouldn't bother with a cannon or VE upgrade...they usually are all-or-nothing affairs. Dead or alive.

Ok, I played several strategy simulations (against the 3 best players at my local shop, along with the most competitive lists they could muster) at 1000pts with various combinations to test which were the most effective.

Firstly, Selek was right about the dire avengers, especially in the Wave Serpent. In the first 2 games the WS got popped before I could unload the DA's, and when I finally got a chance to get them out in the third game they killed a single space marine squad before getting mauled in CC. My assesment is that transporting anything in a WS is too much of a liability against top notch players. The WS attracted more enemy fire than my falcons did, mostly cause it was the one target they could feasibly bring down. Few good players are going to let you get close enough with the laden WS to deliver its cargo. So, unless you hide it behind a piece of scenery for 3/4ths of the game, it really is an inefficient use of points.

However, I had a large amount of success with the Harlequins. On average they destroyed twice their cost in points. Granted, when played against a largely mechanized force, their cost/effect ratio dropped dramatically, but I still found them to be worthwhile for particular models, even in those scenarios.

Fire Dragons were so-so. Assuming you use them like a fire and forget weapon, they worked perfectly. In most scenarios I only pulled off 4 kills against opposing squads (termi's, crons) in shooting, and marginally better success against vehicles. Being only 96 points, they weren't too big of a hit when wiped out. The Shining Spears actually ended up being the real winners when it came to mashing up heavy armor. A little pricey for the effect, but packed much needed anti-tank and anti-HQ killyness.

In regards to jetbike squads for my troops selection, I must say Selek, I am a convert. They are arguably as much of a headache for my opponent as my holo-falcons. After the evening of trials I was so thoroughly convinced that I bought the windrider host boxed set.

The Jetbike Autaurch was very good when tacked on to the spear squad. Tried 2 versions of him, CC and shooty. The CC version had standard load w/ fusion gun and lance, and he doubled the kills of my SS squad when tacked on with them. The shooty version incorporated a reaper launcher, which while I did get a couple of kills with it, was no were near the lethality of the CC version.

And lastly, Maugen Ra.....This guy is as nasty as they come. He chews up just about anything you shoot at, even vehicles. I even got a penetrating hit on a LR with his rending. Even with a drop pod assault centered on him, he managed to chew up over half the terminators my opponent threw at me before he went down. His lack of guaranteed mobility is somewhat of a liability, but considering the amount of points the opponent has to invest to take him out, I consider him extremely worthwhile.

So, with that in mind, I have reconstituted another list, for your evaluation, critisism, and critique.

HQ
Maugan Ra -195
Autaurch - 140
-jetbike, mandiblasters, laser lance, fusion gun

Elites
(6) Fire Dragons -96
(6) Harlequins - 162
-all w/ kisses, shadowseer
(6) Harlequins - 162
-all w/ kisses, shadowseer

Troops
(3) Jetbike Squad -76
-shuriken cannon
(3) Jetbike Squad -76
-shuriken cannon
(3) Jetbike Squad -76
-shuriken cannon
(3) Jetbike Squad -76
-shuriken cannon
(3) Jetbike Squad -76
-shuriken cannon

Fast Attack
(5) Shining Spears -242
-exarch w/ starlance, shuriken cannon, withdraw

Heavy Support
(3) Falcons -615
-scatter laser, shuriken cannon, vectored engines, holo fields, spirit stones

The Harlies have a very rough time against mechanized forces, and big hordes. With FD, I know where I stand. lol they never sway a game like harlequins can, but I guess I prefer knowing what I can do than hoping I roll well...as when you don't roll well it is a disappointment, and can cost you the game.

The Star Lance Exarch is an excellent way to smash Smurf characters.

Don't forget Maugan Ra can, if needed, Fleet of Foot around. I usually only do it when alot of enemies are going to swamp him, and of course when I want to assault something.

Did you find it difficult to hide the Jetbikes? I've found the only real threat to groups of them are things like Basilisks...thankfully, you can usually get rid of those PDQ. It's really how much terrain you have available, but each store is different.

I like your list, give it some playtests. I'll put the one I'm going to modify my list into, here in your thread. It's not necessarily 'better', it's simply a reflection of my experience.

Here's what I plan on doing:

HQ:

Maugen Ra

HQ:

Jetbike Farseer, Fortune @140
8x Jetbike Warlocks, Enhance @375

Elites:

5 Fire Dragons @ 80
5 Fire Dragons @ 80

Troops:

3 Guardian Jetbike Squadron @ 76 Pts
3 Guardian Jetbike Squadron @ 76 Pts
3 Guardian Jetbike Squadron @ 76 Pts
3 Guardian Jetbike Squadron @ 76 Pts

Fast Attack:

5 Shining Spears, Exarch, Withdraw, Star Lance, Shuricannon

Heavy Support:

1 Fire Prism @ 170 Pts,

1 Falcon @ 205 Pts

1 Falcon @ 205 Pts

Comments:

I like two Seer Council units, but I really don't want to give Maugan Ra up.

So just one Seer Council. Essentially I'll fortune the Council then the Shining Spears during Turn 1, when they are turboboosting forward.

The spears ride with the Seer Council as this gives me 2 unit leads at I6; and everyone else is I5.

On the charge this combined unit has:

3 WS6 I6 witchblade attacks.
3 WS5 I6 S8 Power weapon attacks.
Then...
24 WS5 I5 witchblade attacks.
8 WS4 I5 S6 power weapon attacks.

There is literally nothing in the game that can handle this...even another Eldar Seer Council can't.

The rub here is, the Seer Council will stay...and the Shining Spears will withdraw and attack again. And again.

The units can stretch themselves across a huge amount of the opposing players army. As long as you protect the Shining Spears from power fist attacks by putting a Warlock onto them, you can't really go wrong.

The normal Jetbikes operate as Tau suits, the Falcons are generally there for anti-infantry fire; and the FD throw themselves under the Terminator/Land Raider train and hope to derail it.

It's an extremely nasty list. I wish I'd had it figured out by the time I went to LV, I'd have done a bit better in the battle points. Conversely, I wager my Sportsmanship would have dropped to zero. lol

awesome, i'm always game to trying out different combinations. in regards to indirect fire weaps, I only encountered them once, and because of the threat they posed dumped a steaming pile of fire dragons on them in turn 2, meanwhile, turbo-boosting the jetbikes, while spread out of course, for the invuln save untill the artillery was dealt with.

I used Maugan Ra fleeting around several times, often to put him into heavy cover, and I really just let the SM opponent jump him cause I was curious as to just how much pain he could bring, so I blasted away, then let them bring themselves to him like lambs to the slaughter. I was not disappointed.

In regards to hiding the jetbikes, I only played with 3 squads of 3, but for the most part assuming it wasn't a really barren table, I could usually pack 3 of them really tightly into a little ball and stick them somewhere out of sight. 4 might still be ok, but anything more than that is too tricky IMO to find good spots to hide them.

Its quite an eye opener to play with opponents that are out for blood. Anything not optimized and utilized correctly was quickly destroyed (ie. the DA's in the WS). The jetbikes were the ultimate eye opener for me though, since if my opponent wanted to hit me, he either had to waste shots at the falcons, or divide himself up and come after the jetbikes (big mistake). I am going to lament having to fight them, after seeing just how annoyingly painful they are to deal with.