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Hey all!

I just bought a second unit of Dark Reapers for my Swordwind army. My first unit of Reapers has the Exarch with a Reaper Launcher and Crack Shot. However I want the second Exarch to have a different gun.

Which is better: The Tempest Launcher, or the Reaper Launcher all things considered?

I also intend to take both Fast and Crack Shots.

For an infantry based all-comers Eldar list, I think the missile launcher with fast-shot is the best option. I use 2 squads of DR's each with ML and fast shot and it provides a great multi-purpose fire support unit.

Darrian

If you buy the Exarch, you get a minimal amount of 'extra' but if you are going to do it I'd take the Tempest Launcher on both, and give him crack shot.

Relatively worthless against tanks, but against Marines you'll force pin checks every single time.

The double blast template also helps alot against hordes, and crack shot gives you a good chance to wound even with just S4.

It costs you 42 extra points though, something to keep in mind.

I always face a Meq equivalant army (SM or Necron).

The only config I give my Exarch is EML plus fast shot.

If I've got the extra points needed then I'll give him crack shot as well.

It gives the unit a bit of versatility.

It's few and far between how often this config has let me down.

Hope this helps.

Cheers

Bro B

I'm gunna have to go with Stelek. No exarch is probably the best exarch, but if you insist, then the tempest launcher is the safer and more focused choice.

The tempest launcher also gives you the option of hiding the dark reapers. This is very useful against SAFH armies because the reapers be lucky to survive one turn --even in 4+ cover. They can still be useful without risking their hefty price tag. I'm experimenting with 3 reapers with a tempest/crackshot exarch right now in my lists, but I don't think I like it. I'm not sure though. They don't actually kill a whole lot (compared to just 4 reapers), but the presence of AP3 guess is priceless because it means things like raptors can't terrain hop with any reliability.

An extra reaper is cheaper and more effective at killing MEQs than buying a fast shot EML exarch. If you shoot at vehicles, they rest of the squad is wasted so a small squad would seem reasonable. Problem with that, is it's 147 points of 3 T3 models --IE, way too fragile. If you're shooting at light vehicles, you're wasting the whole squad because eldar have such an abundance S6 weapons that perform that role much better.

-LE037

The list I'm playing is pure Swordwind, so I try and keep each unit as specialised as possible. I want each unit to do its thing to maximum efficiency. So what is more efficient at laying low MEQs?
The Tempest looks like it takes the cake at MEQ over the ML and both Exarch powers seem made for it, but then again it has less range, less strength, and it scatters.
The ML can match the range of the Reaper Launcher with a higher strength and equal AP, and with Fast shot it can even match the number of shots. It also has the open of putting down 2 accurate templates at AP4 that pin.

The main reasons I want them:
Tempest - To me it is highly psychological; being able to cut through swaths of marines even if they are hiding and having the ability to ignore cover is a tantalizing prospect. It also allows me an ounce of satisfaction when fighting those Whirlwind toting bastards who slay entire squads in one shot. On the down side, it does not share the range of the rest of the squad.
ML - it complements the Reaper very well, whilst it also gives the possibilty to blast apart Rhinos that they may be using as cover. However, due to the style of the army being pure Aspect Warriors, Tank Hunting is not needed from this squad. All I need is infantry killing power.

I use the EML with Fast Shot.

I like units that give me lots of options. If I am fighting an all Mech army then the unit is still useful and can still blast away at vehicles. If I am fighting a horde army, then I can use the frag missile and cause pinning. If I am playing against MEQs then it will kill them as well at the same range as the Reaper Launchers. It is also good against high toughness creatures like Wraithlords, TMC, C’Tan etc.

If you know what army you are facing, then it is fine to say that I just want to kill MEQs, but in a take all comers environment, your units need to be flexible.

@ Blackmoor.

I value your advice as I realise you play quite competitively (GT's et all).

I don't play competion games however I do play highly competitive friendly games amongst my small group.

If you are playing against what you know will be Meq heavy lists (including IG AC and Necron) do you think it's worth the versatility of having EML with FS?

EML encourages you to shoot at vehicles.

Wasting the rest of the squad.

If you can't down enemy vehicles with what the rest of the Eldar army offers, you're doing something wrong.

Options are fine as long as they expand your options, not require you to restrict them.

Tactical marines with a lascannon, expands.

EML in a reaper squad, limits.

Of course, playing reapers in the first place is already limiting yourself but if you really want to be able to fire 2 EML shots at the higher BS, by all means.

Just remember the other 4 reapers sitting on their ass wondering what they came for. Shoot marines with a 4+ cover save thanks to that vehicle you just blew up?

Groovy.

FWIW I enjoy playing against Eldar SAFH with mixed mech. It's a medium strength army that works well against marines but fails badly against non-marine armies.

I agree with Cypher on the limited use of reapers using hide, especially with the no-hide coming up in 5th.

The most obvious tactic for reapers (Eldrad, fortune + doom) will have a hell of a time in 5th with his limited mobility and not being able to sit in midfield and cast.

Just something to keep in mind.

@ stelek I realise the rest of the squad may be wasted if I'm shooting at vehicles. However I usually use this squad to kill meqs and as an anti ven dred unit (which my marine opponent loves to field multiples of). At a push, I'll use them against armour 13+ units. Against 13+ armour, I'd agree the rest of their shots are a waste but I'd still say it's better to have a bit of slim contingency than nothing. It's better than them having a full squad with nothing to shoot at. Which my oponents are quite capable of creating.

Indeed.

Why I don't field reapers in the first place.

The tempest launchers will hit you, even as the EML blows up a rhino and now the squad can't see a thing.

Stelek wrote:EML encourages you to shoot at vehicles.

Wasting the rest of the squad.

I disagree. Target priority is very important in this game, and you need to be able to kill the biggest threat. Sometimes that is a vehicle, some times it isn’t, but because you are wasting the shots from the reaper launchers, most of the time you will not shoot at vehicles

If you can't down enemy vehicles with what the rest of the Eldar army offers, you're doing something wrong.

I think just the opposite. The Eldar army has a lot of strength 6 shooting, but lacks a lot in the strength 7+ range. They have some other short range options, but for the most part Eldar have trouble with vehicles with 13+ armor, so 2 strength 8 shots at BS 5 can really help. Remember that the HS choices are where some of the Eldar AT comes from, and at least one of the slots will be dark reapers.

Options are fine as long as they expand your options, not require you to restrict them.

I see no restrictions like I do with some extra strength 5 shooting.

Tactical marines with a lascannon, expands.

EML in a reaper squad, limits.

Just the opposite is true. They have nearly the same roll. The lascannon limits by making the squad unable to move, and if you are shooting at vehicles, the fire from the other members of the squad is wasted too. What it adds is flexibility with anti-tank, and the ability to wound big scary things.

Of course, playing reapers in the first place is already limiting yourself but if you really want to be able to fire 2 EML shots at the higher BS, by all means.

Just remember the other 4 reapers sitting on their ass wondering what they came for. Shoot marines with a 4+ cover save thanks to that vehicle you just blew up?

Again, you say that an EML limits you. No matter how many time you say it, it does not make it true. An EML give you more options.

I will give you some real life examples. I played in a 5 game RTT a couple of weeks ago and I will show you how being flexible helps you.

Game #1 was against a ½ Drop Pod army. He started with his Heavy Support (Predators) on the table. Since I have the EML, I was able to shoot at them before the pods came down. Then when the pods hit the table, one turn I failed a target priority check and I had to shoot at a drop pod, which I was able to kill.

Game #2 was against Hod’s Mech army of Death.
Jr. Officer in a Chimera
Inq. Lord w/Land Raider
Inq. w/Land Raider
2 Chimeras w/5 Storm Troopers
2 Hellhounds
3 Leman Russes
There is nothing there that a strength 5 weapon can hurt. I was very glad that I brought my EML.

Game #3 was against another Eldar army and I ended up shooting at his Wraithlords, and the EML came in very handy.

Games #4 and #5 where against Orks, and the Frag missile came in handy.

So again, the flexibility of the EML gives you more options, not less.

FWIW I enjoy playing against Eldar SAFH with mixed mech. It's a medium strength army that works well against marines but fails badly against non-marine armies.

That has not been my experience. I play a mixed mech eldar and I had the most battle points of any Eldar at the Las Vegas GT (80), I scored 97 battle points at the Baltimore GT (funny thing is that I would have scored a perfect 100 battle points but I read the mission wrong. I thought you had to keep a unit alive, and instead you had to make sure your own unit died. I nominated my Dark Reapers which were one of the only units I had left alive.). Oh, and I won the Los Angeles semi-finals with them at the ‘Ardboys tournament, and went 2-1 at the finals with them. They do so bad that next Sunday I will take them to the Adepticon Championships against the best players in the country.

So you can say that they are a “medium strength army” all you want, but that has not been my experience.

I agree with Cypher on the limited use of reapers using hide, especially with the no-hide coming up in 5th.

I like sitting them in 4+ cover with a good LOS. Since they have a 48” range they can hang back and then only take heavy weapons fire in return. Did you know that it take 6 lascannon shots on average to kill one fortuned Dark Reaper in 4+ cover?

The most obvious tactic for reapers (Eldrad, fortune + doom) will have a hell of a time in 5th with his limited mobility and not being able to sit in midfield and cast.

That tactic is not that obvious to me because I have Eldrad hanging back and casting Fortune and Guide on my Dark Reapers.

Just something to keep in mind.

I will give it the consideration that it is due.

Blackmoor, honestly you must know how little I think of your army.

And Adepticon.

And it's best players.

And pretty much everything you say.

I certainly hope I see you at LV, and you bring this crappy army of yours and your amusing style of play.

3 turns and you give up.

Consideration duly given to your mighty record against the best you've managed to play.

Still waiting on that pic. Mostly so I can make sure you aren't one of the three Eldar players I crushed at LV, or dodged playing me (game 3) or my opponent (game 4).

But you must have suspected that, else why would I ask for a picture since you know what I look like.

Amusing as always, bud.

wow!

What is with the animosity guys!?!

Can't we just stick to the topic at hand? You both had some really good points, and I'd be interested to see how they work out.

@Stelek, Don't forget, I am playing you in the first round of the Vegas GT. So, you will have to hope Blackmoor gets an early loss, or you will have no chance of playing him there.

@Cannoness, Since you now have 2 squads of DR's, try one with each option and let us know how it works for you. I bet you will see that the EML and fastshot will be the more effective option.

Darrian

I'd just like to add that there are a number of targets against which neither the EML nor the normal Reaper launchers will be wasted on a target: Plague Marines, DPs, Flyrants, fexes, etc. Not every army will have such a target, but they're far from uncommon.

Stelek wrote:Blackmoor, honestly you must know how little I think of your army.

And Adepticon.

And it's best players.

And pretty much everything you say.

Battle Points from the Las Vegas GT http://gt.us.games-workshop.com/2007/tournamentcircuit/vegasgt/40k.htm
Allan Hernandez Eldar 80
Andrew Sutton Eldar 77


That just kills you doesn't it? I don't even have to make the argument that I came in 7th place and you came in 82nd, but strait up battle points I did better than you.

So Stelek, I will let you choose: Am I a better player than you, or did I bring a better army than yours?

I certainly hope I see you at LV, and you bring this crappy army of yours and your amusing style of play.

I have some bad news for you...I will be bringing a different crappy army to the LVGT. They good news is that I will I will bring the same amusing style of play!

3 turns and you give up.

I hope that we never play, but if we do, 3 turns and I give up? Hilarious! You might beat me, but the best you can do is a minor victory, and even then you will be sweating it the whole way.

Consideration duly given to your mighty record against the best you've managed to play.

You bet! I went 4-0-1 at the Las Vegas GT, 2-0-1 at LA Gamesday, and 5-0 at the Baltimore GT, which makes me undefeated at GW events this year. Isn’t that better than beating a few kids at a local store in Utah?

Still waiting on that pic. Mostly so I can make sure you aren't one of the three Eldar players I crushed at LV, or dodged playing me (game 3) or my opponent (game 4).

I posted the batreps with pictures of all 5 of my LVGT games, so you know that I am none of these.

But you must have suspected that, else why would I ask for a picture since you know what I look like.

Amusing as always, bud.

Sorry, but I have an acute case of vampirism, and I don’t show up in pictures.

There's no pictures of you, so it doesn't help--and no, I don't actually "know" anything. There's no pics of your opponents.

Blackmoor, you played your Eldar how long before the tournament? Playtested your list? Fine tuned it? You know, normal stuff.

I hadn't played 40k in 6 months. I hadn't ever played the new Eldar. I hadn't ever played my Eldar before arriving that weekend. I got pretty much zero sleep the whole tournament (that's Thursday night > Sunday). GW changed one of my scores from a 20 to a 13 because the other player complained and I wasn't there to call bs on it.

Add all that up, and your score, while nice; doesn't really impress me.

In the end, you took your battle-hardened force (if we dare call it that) with your long experience running it; and beat my noob score by 3.

Grats.

Remember, I went 5-0 at LV. I've gone 5-0 at every GT I've attended. 1 or 2 every year. No ties, no losses. Wins. Every time.

Hey I know, why don't you call me a bully?

Still amusing as hell.

On your best day, you got right about what I get on my worst. Grats to you.

Talk is cheap.

Looking forward to seeing you at tournaments this year, Stelek.

I will crush all before me.

I hope I get some really good games this year, because the last 3 years or so I swear if I put a monkey suit on and rolled the dice when the cheese came out the feed door my army would have done all the work.

Ok so back on topic.

The EML gives you anti-tank shots.

Yes, it makes the unit more flexible.

I've found it encourages you to not shoot the rest of the unit, which for reapers is a waste.

If there's nothing else to shoot, sure the EML is just fine.

Would I run the EML? No. I focus my units on their given task. Reapers are there to kill infantry. If they can't, then it's my job as the general to see to it that they can.

Strategy & Tactics 101. If you can't bring your weapons to bear upon the enemy, bring the enemy to your weapons.

Reapers have a very long range for this very reason.

Eldar armies have alot of anti-tank weapons. Blackmoors doesn't, so he needs the ability to bring another anti-tank unit.

Mine does, so I don't need the ability.

Think of reapers as long range heavy bolters that happen to kill marines in one go, and you'll have the heart of the unit down pat.

Do you run a lascannon in with 3 heavy bolters in a dev squad? No, you do not.

Blackmoor does, and says it works well for him.

In certain rare situations, I can see it working just fine.

In most, it's a waste. All you've really gained is a reaper launcher that wounds marines on a 2+ instead of a 3+; and a good ability to hurt most MC on a 2+ instead of 4+ or 5+. I don't think it's worth the extra points.

If it was AP2, I would take it every time. Terminators and MC with 2+ saves laugh at reapers currently.

With a tempest missile launcher, you will likely cause more wounds to terminators and have a chance to pin them (unlikely, but high rolls do happen). Against MC, it won't do as well but you can actually hurt anything hiding behind them. Something a EML equipped exarch cannot do.

So if you play in an environment like Blackmoors where there aren't alot of tanks, and so you end up running fewer anti-tank weapons; having a EML might not be a bad idea.

If you play in an environment like I do, where there are either lots of tanks or none at all; so you always bring enough anti-tank weapons to kill 3+ LR, having an EML isn't necessary and you can bring the TL instead and focus the reapers on infantry while your anti-tank units kill the tanks.

Remember, there are always games where having one or the other will screw you. There is no perfect outfit for reapers. They aren't a very good unit in the first place.

If you can't see your opponent, what good are they? With a tempest launcher, you can at least put some pain into armies that can outshoot your reapers by refusing to be shot at.

You make a really good argument for the Tempest Stelek, and I hadn't even thought about the whole 'shoot the guys behind the tank' it just didn't occur to me. Fast shot with 3 templates would make this gun even more valuable - not to mention the value a small unit of Reapers with an exarch and crack shot will be in CoD or any other cover-rich environment.

I do intend to keep my reapers only doing their intended job and leave the tank killing up to the likes of the Dragons, Spears, Spiders, and Hawks.

Thanks

5th edition, everyone gets cover.

Just something to keep in mind.

Lady_Canoness:

Fast shot with 3 templates would make this gun even more valuable

Not really. When it comes to the tempest launcher, even before factoring abundant cover in the, the reroll on a 4+ is as good as the extra shot against MEqs (50% more wounds vs 50% more shots) and it costs half as much. The choice is clear IMO. Ignoring cover just tips the scale from "must have" to "you'd be mad not to get it."

Some aspectd are mostly delvery systems for the exarch, some aspects are powerhouses in themselves to be enhanced by the exarch.

Dark Reapers are very firmly in ther second category, if your exarchs role doesnt augment the firepower of the squad your exarch is wasted. 2x S5 Ap3 shots are as good as it gets for infantry firepower anywhere, they have a bvery defined role and are damn good at it, dont buy anything that detracts from that.

Normally I dont use an exarch at all with my Dark Reapers.

I can understand what you guys are saying with regards to keeping the dark reapers only to one task.

I certainly fall into the camp that I like to make my Dark reapers more threatening to more targets.

You can take my advice with a pinch of salt.

I'm not a player who plays in GT's etc. infact My group normally plays Apoc and my dark reapers provide me with a threat that my opponents can't ignore.

This means that they soak up a lot of firepower that could hurt other areas of my army.

I also have Maugen Ra to stop them running (as the AC opponent likes arming up with infernus shells).

Just my 2 bob (2 cents across the pond).

I'm surprised more people don't take Exarchs with their Dark Reapers, what with the BS increase...

MinMax wrote:I'm surprised more people don't take Exarchs with their Dark Reapers, what with the BS increase...

BS is irrelevant compared to what he is actually capable of, high BS looking good is just a knee-jerk reaction. Besides, when guided, BS5 is only 8% better than BS4 (opposed to 16% better without). 42 points --either way you cut it-- is a lot for the added either versatility or anti-MEQ he brings to the squad.

-Leo037

MinMax, you'd pay 1/3 more to generate 1/4 more hits?

I wasn't sure how much it cost to make a Reaper into an Exarch, but I figured BS 5 would be worth it. Turns out no...

Also - tegeus, the amount of hits generated would be 1/6, not 1/4.