Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

If the 5th edition rumors are true and we will all need more troops rather than the two obligatory choices.....Eldar army lists are going to change dramatically.

Vehicles apparently get a little stronger (well, non-skimmers at any rate). Eldar will need more troops since only troops are scoring units, which means fewer elites or heavy support units. What type of troops and how many and how to equip them? These will be the questions to answer.


I keep playing with my list, and I see Guardians as vastly under-rated and (for the points) great buys with Bright Lances as heavy weapons. That helps with the anti-vehicle problem. Two units seem a must to sit back in your own deployment zone and make the other guy think about exposing his vehicles.

Our other choices are Dire Avengers, Rangers/Pathfinders - or more Guardians.

More Guardians - for the points they are great - but you can have too many. Too many basic very average troopers who shoot 12 inches. Yes, if you spend the points for a Warlock you can buff up the unit. Is that the best way to proceed? Should you mount regualr Guardians in Wave Serpents (instead of Dire Avengers or Wraithguard) and use as assault troops with a scatter laser as your assault capable heavy weapons platform? Not Storm Guardians - regular guardians with a weapons platform.

Rangers- Pathfinders - not worth it unless you pay for the Pathfinder upgrade. Once upgraded, pathfinders seem VERY GOOD on paper UNLESS the AP1 on 5 or 6 to hit turns into rending which is turning into a 6 on a roll to wound which is rumored in 5th edition.

Dire Avengers - wow. Again, on paper they are rockin. The Exarch can turn the unit into a ferocious all rounder unit, which is somewhat rare in the Eldar Codex. How best to equip the Exarch? Is a 5 plus invulnerable save in assaults worth it? Is it better to take the Diresword instead? Defense vs Bladestorm? I can see Defense as a must have - you take away one attack per model down to a minimum of 1 in each assault phase - so whether you start the fight or finish it you are increasing the odds of your squad (and espeically your Exarch) surviving long enough to accomplish its part of the mission. Taking away one attack from multi-attack models is worth 15 points. Extra shots sometimes - are the points better spent elsewhere? Lean out the list as much as possible to get another squad or two, maybe of guardians?

Guardians in the transports - Dire Avengers on foot? Or Vice Versa? Most importantly - how do you equip the DA Exarch?

So many questions -

I've been wondering about this, but haven't arrived at a good answer. Biggest problem: kill points. Guardians, assuming you field them as 10-person squads (which is most efficient), give up KPs at a rate of 1 KP/100 pts (about as KP dense as, say, Terminators) and are easy to kill. It's a bother.

I think Rangers/Pathfinders will be better than you think. How exactly do you figure that they'll lose the AP 1 on 5/6 special rule? That would require a codex redux or a FAQ, as it is a Ranger/PFinder special rule and not part of the weapon. If sniper rifles get rending, that will just add to what they currently have. It'll make them relatively worse off compared to other snipers (since their edge is lessened), but it will make them better in absolute terms.

Your DA questions don't seem to have anything to do with 5th ed. All the factors you talk about are already present in 4th.

Point noted on the pathfinders - still, your Kill Point statement applies to a unit of 5 with no save at all unless they are in cover.

The whole post is about what troops to use and how to set them up. Sorry you don't think the DA parts relevant.

Kill Points don't change with points spent or upgrades or whatever. One squad of Troops = 1 KP, one HQ = 3 KP, and so on. And uh, Pathfinders not in cover? Unless they've just been Lashed (ouch), this should never, ever, ever, ever, ever happen.

My point on the DA is that you're rehashing stuff that's been discussed many times already. Nothing you've mentioned brings in anything 5th-ed specific, so you might as well do a search instead of raising the same old questions again (which Exarch weapons? which powers? etc--yawn).

Don't forget that jet-bikes and Wraithguard can also be taken as troops.

You can take Wraithguard as troops only if you have a full unit however, so it'll get pricey, but a unit like that will still own everything and provide you with an absolute rock in combat.

The abilities of rangers/pathfinders are not going to change until there is a codex rewrite and I don’t see that happening any time soon…particularly if they keep to their 2ish books a year schedule. As far as use of troops and what to take, that’s a whole different story.

The primary issue with 5th is that only troops will be scoring units. To this end, you will need to use your troops to hold objectives (both in your deployment zone, your enemy’s deployment zone and scattered around the board). You will also have to worry about giving up kill points should your units get destroyed. Also remember to give up kill points or to no longer count as scoring, the unit has to be completely destroyed; one guy left in the squad means that it is still good to go. With these goals in mind, let’s look at the various troop choices and what they can do.

Guardians: Well these guys have a couple of things going for them. They are cheap, they pack heavy weapons, they can be given close combat weapons, they can be transported, they can be given a warlock for support, and they can be taken in squads from 10-20. For holding objectives in or near your deployment zone, guardians are probably not bad. They are cheap so you can have plenty of them around and they pack some punch at close range. Out of cover they drop like flies but in cover they can take a fair amount of hits simply due to their numbers. On the down side, even if armed with close combat weapons they are a bad assault unit. This combined with their frailty out of cover makes them a poor choice for taking objectives that are far from your deployment zone. As far as kill points go, guardians are a rather survivable unit, but this is mostly due to the fact that they are mostly not worth killing. The effort it takes to put them to the sword is usually better placed elsewhere, particularly if the eldar player makes a point to move the guardians into positions that are not favorable to their opponent. However if the eldar player’s opponent does decide that he want’s the guardians dead, it isn’t too difficult. This combined with their relatively low point cost means that if taken in bulk, they put a fair to large number of kill points on the field. In a balanced list, I see a squad or two of guardians having a place as back field units. In a gimmick army, I see the guardian horde (20 man squads with conceal warlocks, possibly some with close combat weapons) backed up by an avatar as being a viable list (although a bit uneldar in practice).

Rangers/pathfinders: These guys pack some punch with their weapons, particularly against high toughness targets. With the popularity of nid zilla, this is always a good thing. On the down side, they rely exclusively on cover to keep them safe and they can’t move and shoot their weapons. This combination makes them a good back field unit that can hold objectives in your deployment zone but is hampered even more than guardians at taking ones outside of your deployment zone. As far as kill points goes, they are a very tough nut to crack (3+ or even 2+ cover saves) so it’s unlikely the enemy will take them out unless they manage to get into hand to hand or close enough to get a flamer on them. This combined with their high cost means that they bring fairly few kill points to the field are good at not giving those up. I think rangers/pathfinders can find a useful place in most eldar armies (even as the sole stay at home unit in a mech list).

Dire Avengers: This is the first troop unit in the eldar army that really can make a go of getting objectives that are in enemy territory. They pack enough punch to do serious damage to the enemy, they can get transports to get them into range for their short ranged weapons, and they have the survivability to take a couple rounds of enemy fire without getting completely wiped out. They can also be kitted out to be decent in hand to hand. Their lack of medium or long ranged weapons means that they end up being poor choices to hold back field objectives though. Their medium resilience and moderate cost mean that they are decent at not giving up their kill points and they don’t bring too many to the table.

Jet Bikes: This is, by far, the fastest unit in the troops section (assuming turbo boost rules don’t change). They are also one of the tougher ones. Unfortunately they are also one of the ones that do the least amount of damage to the enemy. The inclusion of a warlock with a singing spear and destructor can go a ways to increasing their power but it can get expensive. Jetbikes fill the unique ability of being a great stop gap unit. They can get to whatever objectives need to be taken or contested in late game turns and they can get to remote board locations to help out where help is needed. Their toughness and fairly high point cost also mean that they don’t bring many kill points to the table and it’s rather difficult to get them to give up those points.

So if we break things down to a chart and look at the various aspects on a 1-5 scale (1=bad, 3=ok, 5=good) we can summarize

Guardians (small squad with heavy weapon)
Back field objectives = 4
Mid field objectives = 3
Objectives behind enemy lines = 1
Avoiding giving up kill points = 2

Guardians (large squad with conceal warlock)
Back field objectives = 2
Mid field objectives = 4
Objectives behind enemy lines = 3
Avoiding giving up kill points = 2

Rangers/pathfinders
Back field objectives = 5
Mid field objectives = 2
Objectives behind enemy lines = 1
Avoiding giving up kill points = 5

Dire Avengers
Back field objectives = 2
Mid field objectives = 4
Objectives behind enemy lines = 4
Avoiding giving up kill points = 3

Jetbikes
Back field objectives = 3
Mid field objectives = 5
Objectives behind enemy lines = 5
Avoiding giving up kill points = 4

I like your assessment, Phoenix, but I think you're off-base about the killyness of bikes. Bike shooting isn't much less effective than DAs.

And a 400pt Wraithguard unit is 1 KP.

Lady_Canoness & whitedragon: Good call.

Ten Guardian jetbikes first turn turboboosting with Fortune - thats one tough and mobile troop choice. Good to tie opponents down, or to shoot hordes and backup with jetbike move, or to take objectives lategame.

A rather extreme approach would be to combine Eldred with 2x10 jetbikes + Warlock (morale and spear) and have these turboboost first turn.

Maybe ad 1-2 units of Pathfinders to support. These benefit a lot from Eldred too (Doom).

Finally a tryed and tested unit with even a bit of tankhunting: Serpent/brightlance + Avengers.

@ Phoenix and Lady Canoness - well presented advice (one with LOT of analysis, one quick and to the point).

I had forgotten about Wraithguard being a Troop choice if fielded 10 strong.

Pathfinders are in definitely in then; I will admit I am surprised I don't see them fielded more often in army lists on various boards or locally at the shops.

The question still remains open though on how many troop units and what a player should sacrifice to increase the number. Admittedly, the answer depends to a certain extent on point values of games. I don't see any choice but to knock off elites and get (a) pathfinders if you don't already have a unit and (b) at least one and preferably two units of guardians with heavy weapons. Question is anti-tank or anti - infantry, and will depend on your heavy support choices.

Rounding out Dire Avengers INSTEAD of elites - with the possible exception of fire dragons for their AT ability - is that the proper course to pursue?

If utilizing Dire Avengers as all around "elites" in place of more specialized elites is the proper course to pursue, how should the unit be equipped? Phoenix analysis (perhaps you disagree with his weighting of abilities, perhaps not) IS DEPENDENT ON HOW YOU KIT OUT YOUR EXARCH, and HOW YOU KIT OUT TRANSPORT (if any).

A related question is - replacing in your back field counter charging Harlies or Scorpions with a unit of Dire Avengers fully kitted out with all Exarch abilities, but giving other units only defense.

And - 4th edition or 5th edition, is the shimmershield really worth giving up the diresword for?

The reason you don't see pathfinders is alot of people don't want to play against them. Gee, a unit that shoots all game and kills me and I can't get rid of it even if you aren't being uber and giving them fortune? Oh I'm doomed instead?

DA are crap. They just don't bring enough to the table to be viable.

Guardians are fine for back table deployment, but in my lists I don't like units that don't do much but "hold" an objective for me. I've killed enough guardian units to know they don't stand up to shooting or CC.

I use jetbikes, but are they really awesome? No. They usually toss in a few wounds or hits on light vehicles, and I'm happy with that. In 5th edition, you really have a choice in your gaming right now: Kill the enemy and sieze the objective, sieze the objective and force the enemy to come to you, let the enemy sieze the objective and kill him...it's not like it's a balanced system like AT-43 is. It's a hodgepodge of off-the-cuff ideas that needs months of refinement, after all, what good is a game system if any single key part of it is useless?

tegeus-Cromis wrote:I like your assessment, Phoenix, but I think you're off-base about the killyness of bikes. Bike shooting isn't much less effective than DAs.

That is a point I think I would like to debate. It would seem to me (and I don't have the numbers memorized to run the math on it at the moment so I'll have to rely on touchy feely analysis for the moment) that the dire avengers would provide quite a bit more fire power than the bikes. I base this on the fact that the avengers are more or less required to have an exarch with blade storm and the fact that the avengers are much cheaper than the bikes are. Now it may be that the price of the wave serpent bumps them back to being on par, but then you have a serpent and all its various abilities (and fire power) so the comparison becomes a bit muddier.

Beriothien wrote:I had forgotten about Wraithguard being a Troop choice if fielded 10 strong.

As had I. Well they are tough as nails with T6 and a 3+ save. They are also rather dangerous with their wraith cannons. The down side is that if you take them, you're passing up 2ish dire avenger squads or 4 guardian squads. Looking on the bright side again though, you only bring 1 kill point to the table vs the 4 that you would bring with the avengers or guardians (remember the avengers' wave serpents are worth 1 kp each too).

So in keeping with the value system

Wraithguard
Back field objectives = 1
Mid field objectives = 5
Objectives behind enemy lines = 3
Avoiding giving up kill points = 5

For the price of 10 DAs with dual-cat Bladestorm Exarch in a barebones Serpent, you get 10 Jetbikes with 3 shuriken cannons. 22 BS4 S4 shots + 2 BS3 re-rollable vs. 14 BS3 S4 re-rollable. 3 BS3 re-rollable S6 shots vs. 9 BS3. (This when not Bladestorming; when Bladestorming, the usual pros and cons [high burst damage, lessdamage considered over two turns] apply.)

If the DAs have the advantage if their Serpent can shoot, it doesn't seem like a great one (bearing in mind that I too am using touchy-feely analysis), and when the Serpent is shaken or has to move, the Guardians are clearly deadlier (because then it's just 22 BS4 S4 shots vs. 14 BS3 S4 shots with rerolls + 9 BS3 S6 shots).

Great advice as always Pheonix. Thanks!

No one Eldar Troop type will be able to do well in 5th without at least one other type of Troops to back them up. This may seem self-evident, but it's going to be more extreme in 5th because our troops have to _survive_, not just kill or serve as ablative shields and fire support for Elites.

The problem with Pathfinders is that their rate of fire just isn't high enough to deal with large units well. Since they have to hug cover and are static, they will often have their own LOS limited by terrain as well. Between single shots per 24 points and limited mobility, I find them simply too slow to pay for their points on their own. They shoot big stuff well, but lack in stopping hordes or fast units. They will be getting even better at bringing down tough troops in 5th, though, as their armor-piercing capacity is about to get increased by 50% with sniper weapons being rending. They will hit slightly less often, though, so I think it balances out.

I disagree with Stelek about DAs. They hit hard, and hit well, at medium range, with tons of shots. They are also durable and excellent tarpits, especially when Fortuned and packing Defend. They bring plenty to the table, especially when used in combo with CC troops like Spears, Harlies or Scorpions.

Stelek, I hope you get a chance to see how mounted DAs do against Orks in Vegas. [After writing that, I realized that it sounded like Dire Avengers beat Orks at poker. Come to think of it, they probably do.]

Jetbikes cover the weaknesses of foot-mounted Troops well. Their maneuverability enhances the usefulness of their firepower, and their JSJ move makes them live longer. When given shuricannons, they also have the flexibility to hunt both infantry and light vehicles. While they do have a low number of shots per point, their maneuverability lets you put those shots where they really count, and twin-linking makes them hit pretty often for their points investment. Sadly, 3-bike units will be less appealing if one actually has competition for Troops slots. When you do have the slots empty and need maneuverability though, they're a good idea.

As for Wraithguard, they really only do well against plentiful hard targets. They are _not_ resilient in combat as soon as a powerfist hits them (which is pretty much always if they are fielded on foot in large, slow units). Against hordes, they may not die quickly in CC but they also don't do much in return, high Strength or no. DAs make a better tarpit with PW/SS, Defend and Fortune than Wraithguard- for less points, too! Wraithguard also die quickly to plasma and many other anti-MEQ weapons that are otherwise less useful against Eldar (well, except shooting your skimmers). They just aren't as good as equivalent points-worth of your other choices. Anyone who can do well with foot WG against infantry-heavy armies must be really, really good.

As for Guardians, it looks like we're back to using the breeding stock of the Eldar species as mobile cover again. Oh well. They'll shield other Troops and maybe get a shot or two in.

Oh, and single-shot Guardian weapons are a waste. Use something else to shoot the big stuff, and head those Guardians for the infantry that they might actually get a shot at.

Back to my point- DAs cover the weaknesses of Pathfinders and other high-power shooters well (low ROF), Jetbikes complement static shooters well, and Guardians will make good meatshields for everything, especially when Fearless. However none of these on their own will live very long.

@Savnock

You say single shot guardian weapons are a waste - other than taking a tank, how else does one get anti-tank in a 1500 point all comers list?

One thing I have noticed about tactical advice and army list advice threads - everyone tells you what to do assuming no points limits When nut cutting time comes, definite advice is missing.

tegeus-Cromis wrote:For the price of 10 DAs with dual-cat Bladestorm Exarch in a barebones Serpent, you get 10 Jetbikes with 3 shuriken cannons. 22 BS4 S4 shots + 2 BS3 re-rollable vs. 14 BS3 S4 re-rollable. 3 BS3 re-rollable S6 shots vs. 9 BS3. (This when not Bladestorming; when Bladestorming, the usual pros and cons [high burst damage, lessdamage considered over two turns] apply.)

If the DAs have the advantage if their Serpent can shoot, it doesn't seem like a great one (bearing in mind that I too am using touchy-feely analysis), and when the Serpent is shaken or has to move, the Guardians are clearly deadlier (because then it's just 22 BS4 S4 shots vs. 14 BS3 S4 shots with rerolls + 9 BS3 S6 shots).

Ok, with that information lets look at the numbers.

Dire avengers vs MEQ's not using blade storm
9 dire avengers = 2 kills
1 exarch shooting = .56 kills
serpent catapults = .25 kills
serpent cannons = .625 kills
________________________
3.4 Kills total

Dire avengers vs MEQ's using blade storm
9 dire avengers = 3 kills
1 exarch shooting = .69 kills
serpent catapults = .25 kills
serpent cannons = .625 kills
_______________________
4.6 Kills total

Jet Bikes vs MEQ's
7 catapult bikes = 1.75 kills
3 cannon bikes = 1.25 kills
______________________
3 Kills total


An over view of some other targets in more brevity.
Avengers vs orcs or 5+ save genestealers (no storm) = 10.3 Kills total
Avengers vs orcs or 5+ save genestealers (with storm) = 13.7 Kills total
Bikes vs orcs or 5+ save genestealers = 9 kills total

Avengers vs gaunts, guardians, or IG troopers (no storm) = 13.1 Kills total
Avengers vs gaunts, guardians, or IG troopers (with storm) = 17.6 Kills total
Bikes vs gaunts, guardians, or IG troopers = 10.75 kills total

Avengers vs T3, 4+ save (no storm) = 6.5 Kills total
Avengers vs T3, 4+ save (with storm) = 8.8 Kills total
Bikes vs T3, 4+ save = 5.4 kills total

Avengers vs T4, 4+ save (no storm) = 5.1 Kills total
Avengers vs T4, 4+ save (with storm) = 6.8 Kills total
Bikes vs T4, 4+ save = 4.5 kills total

Avengers vs AV 10 vehicles (no storm) = 1.9 damaging hits
Avengers vs AV 10 vehicles (with storm) = 2.5 damaging hits
Bikes vs AV 10 vehicles = 2 damaging hits


So while you might be able to argue that the fire power of the bikes is similar to that of the avengers, it would appear that they beat out the bikes in raw kills against every target other than light vehicles, even without blade storm. The bikes have a bit more utility than the avengers with their various movement options, lack of reliance on a transport, and ability to move in the shooting phase. So in the end, I think they are both very viable troop choices but the avengers do appear to be the winners when it comes to raw firepower.

Like I said, Phoenix, bikes lose out to DAs (when the Serpent can shoot), but not by a whole lot. I never said they were superior in terms of firepower, but that the difference is nowhere near as meaningful as your original description made out. I can live with losing a fraction of a kill. I am not too concerned with the comparison vs Bladestorm, because the bikers will shoot again the next turn.

Also bear in mind that a 10-man squad is not the most efficient in terms of shooting, since it is one over the nearest shuricannon threshhold. If you drop two DAs and one bike, or add some toys to the Serpent and two bikes + shuricannon to the bike squad, the bikes should come off ever so slightly better than in the current comparison.

I would imagine that things would also get tiped a bit towards the bikes when you start considering the possibility of a destructor warlock in it too, but templates have never been a very good friend to math-hammer.

Beriothien wrote:@Savnock

You say single shot guardian weapons are a waste - other than taking a tank, how else does one get anti-tank in a 1500 point all comers list?

One thing I have noticed about tactical advice and army list advice threads - everyone tells you what to do assuming no points limits When nut cutting time comes, definite advice is missing.

Let's see- In rough descending order of usefulness and viability in 1500:

Wraithlords with EML/BL
Fire Dragons in a Falcon/Serpent/whatever
BLs on Wave Serpents
Farseer on bike with spear
Autarch on bike with fusion gun (and laser lance/mandibasters, but that's tangential)
Warlock in bike unit with spear
Autarch with wings and fusion gun
3-Warlock bike unit with spears
Warp Spiders going for flank shots
Vyper with SC/SL going for flank shots
Wraithguard in Wave Serpent.
BL/EML War Walkers (not a great buy, but I'm listing every possibility here)

How's that list? Any of those things are viable in various builds at 1500. The top 6 are frequent fliers in my lists, and do very well against vehicles. I rarely have trouble with vehicle-busting, and I rarely take more than one dedicated anti-tank unit. Most of mine are multi-taskers, like the Farseer and Autarch on bike. It's heavily armored infantry that give me grief. Freaking Plague Marines with plasma... grumble...

Anyways, taking Guardians to get a BS 3 single-shot BL keeps you from taking these (much more flexible and useful) units. I'd rather have two BL/EML Wraithlords than 3 Bl Guardian squads (without Warlocks, even) for the same points. That's more shots, more hits, more flexibility, and decent CC in a pinch as well. Oh, and they have LOS over size-2 combats to boot. Same goes for two BL BL Serpents vs. 3 BL Guardian squads, 1 Farseer on bike with spear (and powers) vs. one Guardian squad, etc. And while the higher model count may seem to give the Guardians an edge in resilience, most of my choices are actually much more resilient vs. basic infantry weapons.

Guardians have their place: using multi-shot weapons while serving as meat shields. I came in on the learning curve with them, too. I have 60, and fielded them a lot in 3rd and early 4th. They're still around for Apocalypse games and ablative wounds, while I leave the quality 1-shot weapons to other units.

Oh, and I've got plenty of advice for low-points games. A really good list gets as many functions out of a unit as possible, keeping points low, redundancy and multi-tasking high. You must be thinking of other posters who like lots of doodads on their units, and like them single-purpose. Other than DAs and Falcons (where the doodads pay dividends), I cut the gravy and go cheap and plentiful whenever possible.

Anyways, taking Guardians to get a BS 3 single-shot BL keeps you from taking these (much more flexible and useful) units. I'd rather have two BL/EML Wraithlords than 3 Bl Guardian squads (without Warlocks, even) for the same points.

Now look, I'm with you when you say Guardians aren't the best source of AT, but your argument here is absurd. Taking Guardians stops you from taking WLs? How? It's a given that Eldar armies will fill their HS first as a priority, whether it be with skimmers or WLs. There is plenty of space left to take Guardians if that's your thing.

Savnock

No offense - that is your list in order of usefulness and viability. I have read and or discussed with other players their lists - and they are not like yours.

I am also a long time fantasy player, and discussions about fantasy and the various army books are like discussions on this forum about 40k. Mostly wrong regarding units worth it or not.

Examples - Tomb King fast cavalry are worthless, Wood Elf Way Watchers suck and are not worth the points, etc. Statements I have proven to be untrue

So - I can't figure out a way using "theory hammer" to get enough anti-tank in the list without giving guardians bright lances. I have seen and discussed with some guys that win a lot that take the bright lances in guardian units. I may change my mind. You do have a valid point about the need for multi-shot weapons. I do have the walkers for that (yes they are vulnerable, as are all things to something).

I do appreciate your posting (unlike TC, who is now on my ignore list, good advice or not, this is a hobby, and putting up with a donkey is not worth it), and after all, you may be right. I will gladly admit so in the forum. Only time will tell. I look forward to your future comments in my threads and "I told you so" is okay, coming from you.

The great thing about the ignore list is that people always feel compelled to click the link that'll show what the person who annoys them so is saying. At least, I do, so much so that I don't bother ignoring people any more.

Anyway Beriothien, I have to say, you're a real class act. You ask Savnock where else Eldar are supposed to get their AT if not from Guardian squads (hilarious, given that many killer lists have no Guardians in them at all), and when he obliges you in your inane request, your response is. . . nuh-uh, you're wrong, and I know this because other people said so? Wonderful. If this is going to be characteristic of your contribution to such discussions, I don't know why anyone should bother answering your questions.

I'm siding with Savnock & TC here.

I play all-infantry Swordwind (use to play Ulthwe while we still got our wonderful Black Guardians...) and as such I don't have a single guardian - or a single bright-lance for that matter. I do have Warp Spiders, Swooping Hawks, Shining Spears, and Fire Dragons though - (and Jain Zar is worst come to worst), and so far they have managed to deal with my tank popping needs. Granted I've only got enough minis ready to go for 1000pt games, but so far so good.

In my own army, I do have twin linked Brightlances on two wave serpents (which come in later due to escalation if it is in effect), and S6 shooting on the walkers BUT other than that.........I mean my farseer can run up and smite something with his witchblade. I need something else in a take all comers list that could deal with vehicles.

Hence - Guardians with BL. They sit back, have the ability to kill a vehicle, and my opponent has to cross the field to get to them, going through all my other stuff. They are troops, will therefore be scoring units in rumored 5th edition, etc.

That is the idea, anyway. Yeah, it would be nice to equip both guardian units and both walkers with scatter lasers.

The Dire Avengers can do a lot (or so I am told by many people, although some in this thread disagree), the Warp Spiders can slaughter a lot of infantry units (as can the walkers, and they will be drawing fire from the enemy which can server a purpose) and harliquens can charge whatever approaches my guardian units. I have some good assualt and some good ani-infantry. I need anti-tank. Dropping troops isn't an option to get it...so if there are any other ideas other than that I would consider them.

I am not really reading, but I will say this:

Avengers are good.

March them towards the enemy, shoot stuff, assault stuff.

They shoot 18". That makes them good and makes up for the lack of a Heavy.

Avatar makes them even better.

Guardians are an acceptable choice if not a top tier choice. Avatar makes them better.

They're just guardians. I use mine in moderate sized conceal squads and run them in the face of the enemy. It's not uncommon for me to get the shuricats off.

Basically Avatar and Farseers make both Guardians and Dire Avengers much better. But they are still pretty good.

Pathfinders are good. Jetbikes are good.

10 Wraithguard in a large game is a cool idea, if possibly weak but the running rule as well as 5th ed LoS rules might make it worth while.

Blackmoor for one, as well as other players enjoy brightlances in a gunline. I think it is important to note that they are not there JUST for the brightlance. They also serve as an effective counter-charge unit. Note that you often want anti-tank fire more in the beginning of the game than in the later turns anyway, and the other heavy weapon choices are a little subpar. Dire Avengers or pathfinders provide much better anti-infantry shooting than Scatterlasers.

Eldar have nothing to worry about in the Troop department.

Go Eldar!

thanks Tacobake.

I keep debating the conceal warlocks (I have to give up something, like bare bones harlequins or warp spiders). If only I didnt have to give up something......

How much anti-tank do Eldar need really? I think Falcons, Dragons and Spears are probably the most pts efficient anti-tank choices.

In 5e, choices are heavily distorted towards KP instead of points so Wraithguard troops become a much more viable, especially with run and screening rules. Will probably use them to screen avengers in an infantry list.

zaqzaq wrote:How much anti-tank do Eldar need really? I think Falcons, Dragons and Spears are probably the most pts efficient anti-tank choices.

Enough to kill the enemy's tanks. If the enemy doesn't bring any tanks, then you don't need any anti-tank. If the enemy fields a mech list, then you are going to need a fair amount. If you are making an all comers list, then you need some but not a lot. The thing is that you have to work it in however best fits your army. While some, like Lady_Canoness, fit it in via aspect warriors, others might do it though vehicles (lances on serpents, vypers, walkers, or whatever) and others still might do it via guardian squads. All of these options are viable but it really depends on the rest of the army. If your heavy support slots are being dedicated to flacons, then you are not going to have room for dreadnaughts. If your elite slots are filled with harlequins, then you won't have room for fire dragons. If your troop slots are filled with dire avengers and jet bikes, then you won't have room for guardians. Eldar army building is a lot of give and take.

It is all a matter of how you want to fit the pieces of the puzzle together and what you think is the most important aspects of your army to concentrate on. I'll pick on Lady_Canoness again here to illustrate my point. She has decided to play a sword wind army. This means that her army will consist of aspect warriors with some vehicle support. Guardians of any kind (jet bikes included) have no place in an army of that theme, so she must get her anti-tank from other sources. Other similar themes in an army or simple lack of the proper models might limit people from certain choices. The point is though; effective armies can still be made so long as you have enough units that fill the roles you need.