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I've seen a number of comments and posts here and there discussing the nids' potential anti-tank capabilities in 5th ed, but I hadn't seen one coherent discussion bringing them all together. As a long-time (and fairly dedicated) nid player I thought I'd start one. Some of the larger ideas might also apply to Orks which have their own weakness vs. high armor vehicles.

I'll be the first to admit that much of this is based around rumors and speculation. Will MC's be able to fire 1 weapon or two? Will rending get changed again? Etc, etc. But, Lemartes and Centurian99 both had a few good comments in the "stealer shock" thread thats currently lighting up the forums.

"If the new rumor on MC's firing one weapon only turn out to be true it may force new shock armies to actually require the dakka fex to make up for the sniper fex's decreasing shots. This may have the opposite effect of taking less shooty MC's because the barb strangler seems to be a less attractive option than the venom cannon on the sniper fex?"- Lemartes

Centurian99's response:
"I don't know. I think the barbed strangler (potentially twin-linked) may actually become the preferred loadout in that situation. The venom cannon is crippled by being unable to pen, where the barbed strangler can at least pen the AV12 skimmers. Warp Blasts are going to be the only means of dealing with AV14 vehicles.
The barbed trangler also uses a template, so when shooting at a vehicle, a spot-on hit isn't required. I'm actually thinking twin-linking may be worthwhile, because we won't want our shooting fexes getting up close and personal."


Both of these are based around the MC's only getting to shoot 1 weapon per turn rumor. I'm not a math guy, so I won't try to run the stats on all of the different weapons, though I'm sure it'll be useful when someone finally does. What I would like to propose is a different way of thinking about anti-tank options in 5th ed.

A buddy of mine claims to have run the numbers and found that a stationary predator in woods will have as high of a survival rate against a lascannon shot in 5th ed as a tau skimmer does now. If thats even close to being true, then perhaps tyranids (and other armies as well- like Orks) might want to change their way of thinking from "Destroy the tank" to "Stun the tank". With tanks no longer scoring, they would seem to fall into much more of a support role- killing enemy tanks & MCs, or blasting away at enemy units to prevent them from scoring or softening them up prior to assualts aimed at wiping them out. Orks & Nids are two of the best assault armies in the game. Perhaps whats really needed is merely to shake, stun, or 'armament destroy' enemy vehicles so they aren't blowing big holes in your own units while those units wipe out the enemy and take objectives. If thats true, then the 'glancing only' rule on venom cannons or from str 6 devourers doesn't seem like such a bad deal, and the higher strength on VCs might still have them winning out over barbed stranglers despite the ability to penetrate on the latter. I've never been the biggest fan of warp-blasting zoanthropes since experience has shown me that I'm spending ~195 points (I always pay 10pts for synapse) for 3 models who might hit twice per turn IF they're in 18" range to do so, and that can be especially tough against fast skimmers. Meanwhile my gunfexes and gun tyrant are happily shooting away from turn 1. I imagine the short range issue could only increase in v5 since with tanks no longer scoring, those tanks that aren't carrying troops will have little reason or incentive to move closer towards the tyranids. After all, a 72" battle cannon, can sit on the back line and still shoot just about anything on the board. Predator Annihilators are limited to a 48" range, but even that allows them to stay back from the action against a tyranid or ork force which will be advancing towards them.

That sums up my nascent idea. Thoughts?


SteveW

Well, the way I see it, there are three possible ways it will work based on the rumors:
1 - MC shooting stays the way its at. Fire 2 weapons on the move. If so, nothing really changes. Gunfexes remain as is, and provide long-range support.

2 - MC shooting changes to firing 1 weapon on the move, 2 weapons if stationary. Gunfexes still remain as is, since if they're positioned well, they'll still be able to use both weapons to good effect.

3 - MC shooting changes to 1 weapon only, whether moving or stationary. In this case, the question really becomes which weapon would be preferred: a venom cannon, or a barbed strangler (potentially twin-linked). I think the cost of a twin-linked venom cannon makes that a non-starter, but I've always thought the barbed strangler was undercosted, so a 40 points twin-linked S8 AP5 large blast marker may be a good idea.

Regardless, I think that including at least two warp blasts is going to be neccessary, not for hunting backfield tanks necessarily, but for the really dangerous things - AV14 transports (i.e. the monolith and the land raider).

Agreed on #1 and #2. If the new rules go either of those two ways then this issue doesn't need to go past this post.

So we come to #3.
I'm not sold on the TL strangler simply because you'll still average just as many "hits" as a VC (2 shots needing 4's vs 1 shot re-rolling scatter, iirc) but its the str 8 vs 10 that matters, and the fact that 1 VC costs a little bit less and still frees up a weapon slot for scythes, claws, or whatever suits your fancy. Even against AV 13 which is standard on most main tanks, its a difference of needing 3's to do something for a VC vs. 5's for a strangler. I do admit that the large blast makes the weapon far more threatening to regular troops if/when the tanks are taken care of. In some ways it's a question of preference. Is it better to have a 2/3 chance of at least shaking the crew and preventing fire next turn, vs a 1/3 chance of shaking or more with part of that being a 1/6 chance of penetrating and possibly destroying the tank for good.


Raveners provide another option against ground based tanks, if a somewhat expensive one. I've always preferred to use them against infantry since the high number of attacks is just so much fun, but if you can use screening (hormagaunts perhaps?) to protect them for the 1 turn they'll likely be in the open, attacking the rear armor in CC makes them quite nice. Having rending reduced doesn't seem like it would affect them much, since they'll still likely pen vs just about anything except those landraiders and monoliths. With rumors suggesting that tanks won't be moving much, it means that there's even more chance of auto-hitting with all their attacks.

SteveW

Landraiders don't scare me quite as much as monoliths. Nids are already pretty good at dealing with terminators and tac marines: genestealers for obvious reasons, and gaunts (pick your type) by volume of attacks & bodies. So long as you can keep a unit or two with some synapse in the likely destination area I think we can minimize the effect the transported units will have.

As for rapid firing nerons who can teleport out of combat.....<shudder>.....the gaunts have never liked that.


SteveW

I too thought that suppressive fire might do just fine for 5th edition if MCs are down to firing one weapon period. In that case, a twin-linked VC looks good, even for the cost, as it's the best bet at shaking, taking off weapons and immobilizing vehicles.

However, then I considered what non-scoring tanks will be doing in 5th. Although their survivability in pillbox mode will be way up, the usefulness of Tank Shock to shift Troops off of objectives (and of Land Raiders as delivery systems as well) makes dealing with Tank Shock a major issue.

Suppressive fire won't deal well with Tank Shock. If objectives are in the middle of the board, MC's can just rip those tanks up in CC, of course. But what about distant objectives? The ones that Scuttling Genestealers or gaunts will be vying for?

It's gotta be big shots that can blow the tanks up there, or the few fast MCs in close. Again, I'm assuming one gun per MC in my post (as two static/one on the move seems saner, and GW often do the opposite of balanced/sane when swinging between extremes). Of all the options you all have discussed so far, the Flyrant with scytals and Warp Blast looks like the must-have, assisted by one twin-VC Gunfex (for very effective suppressive fire of vehicles not Tank Shocking, and CC vs. tanks on nearby objectives) and a unit of 3 Zoanthropes (really a last-ditch measure, as there are so many ways to neuter them, and their BS is weak to start with).

It seems like a mixed solution (some suppressive fire, some MC threat, some longshot Warp Blasts) is the only way that 'Nids are going to do much to vehicles in 5th. What do you all think of that solution?

It's not a bad idea, Savnock.

I think relying on BS3 shots is problematic at best--I don't know about you, but I remember how crappy that was back a few codex revisions ago. Zoanthropes are so tall they get shot up by everyone.

Personally I saw biovores again recently. Shocked me, really. With the nerf to fast attack units, I also saw a bunch of bio-acid mines coming down. It's really the only other viable item around.

Though I must admit, 6 fexes running at you sucks. Add in some feeder tendril stealers supporting them and that really just sucks. lol

I used dropping bio-acid mines before and they aren't that bad. Sure, you don't know when they come down, but nothing can escape them (Indirect whirlwinds, basilisks for example)

What came to my mind was the possibility of a Lictor for AT. In my all melee Army i need all AT that I can get and when Tanks will hug cover, the Lictor can hop out, attack side and rear armor with auto-hitting, rending S6 attacks.

Not the optimal build, but an alternative.

Greets
Schepp himself

Thats true, Schepp. With terrain no longer blocking LOS, we won't have trouble seeing vehicles. What remains to be seen for lictors is whether people will deploy tanks in terrain, or behind it. If behind, then the lictor might work beautifully. If inside, then deepstriking inside the same piece becomes that much riskier.

Savnock, I like some of your logic. I hadn't thought about being tank shocked off of objectives and I think you're correct, it does force us to adopt a more aggressive stance.

A twin VC fex would definately be major points investment. We'd be looking at a 15 point jump over a current gunfex, so up into the 180-190 point range depending on other kit.

3 synapse/warpblast zoanthropes run just shy of 200 points.

A winged hivetyrant with twin scytal & warpblast runs roughly 180-200 depending on other kit. The loss of the 2+/6+ save hurts, and survivability becomes more of an issue. Giving him +1 BS will also be necessary to improve those chances to hit when he does warpblast. This is an instance where we also lose some of the flexibility of the winged tyrant. He goes from being a disruptive MC who is fast enouhg to tie up & eliminate enemy shooting, mess with enemy plans, and ease the pressure on the rest of the nid infantry to a glorified 200pt tank hunter.

Having thought about it, our best method of dealing with many of those vehicles might go back to raveners, stealers, warriors, and even S4 hormagaunts. A tank that will be used to shock us off of objectives in our half of the board will need to start moving up the field. This means our CC bugs stand a good chance of being able to assault it. I know some people have suggested the idea of strangler/scytal elite fexes, and these guys might also really shine in this instance. The S8 is low powered, but they can shoot at the vehciles while they move up, and then assault once they get within range, or move near the objectives and force the enemy tank to try and shock a carnifex with str9+2d6 pen-value vs. the back armor that auto-hits. Even skimmers don't like that.


SteveW

Is the rumor that glancing hits have no chance to get a destroyed result at all unless the target is open topped still running? That makes me very unhappy about all the models I've put Venom cannons on.

SteveW wrote:
A twin VC fex would definately be major points investment. We'd be looking at a 15 point jump over a current gunfex, so up into the 180-190 point range depending on other kit.

Yet another reason I think the dual stranglers, or strangler/scytals is the way to go with a carnifex. Heck, with a strangler, the BS upgrade becomes unnecessary.

SteveW wrote:
A winged hivetyrant with twin scytal & warpblast runs roughly 180-200 depending on other kit. The loss of the 2+/6+ save hurts, and survivability becomes more of an issue. Giving him +1 BS will also be necessary to improve those chances to hit when he does warpblast. This is an instance where we also lose some of the flexibility of the winged tyrant. He goes from being a disruptive MC who is fast enouhg to tie up & eliminate enemy shooting, mess with enemy plans, and ease the pressure on the rest of the nid infantry to a glorified 200pt tank hunter.

Can't take the BS upgrade with warp blast - at least not for the S10 shot, which is the point.

Monoliths and Land Raiders are going to be problematic. No two ways around it.

Destroyed, no. Immobilized/weapon destroyed and then blow up, yes.

Strangler+Talons is a fex that can be taken as Elites also. It will be the new dakkafex in 5th.

SteveW wrote: A buddy of mine claims to have run the numbers and found that a stationary predator in woods will have as high of a survival rate against a lascannon shot in 5th ed as a tau skimmer does now. If thats even close to being true, then perhaps tyranids (and other armies as well- like Orks) might want to change their way of thinking from "Destroy the tank" to "Stun the tank".

1 bs4 lascannon shooting at an av 12 skimmer (4th ed) = .44 damaging hits (all glance) = .15 kills against a skimmer
1 bs 4 lascannon shooting at an av 13 skimmer (4th ed) = .33 damaging hits (all glance) = .11 kills against a skimmer
1 bs 4 lascannon shooting at an av 13 tank in 4+ cover (5th ed) = .16 damagin hits (.06 glance, .1 pen) = .04 kills

Most of this is due to the change in damage charts. Glances can't kill a tank in 5th and pens only kill it on a 5 or 6 (as opposed to 4,5, or 6 in fourth ed)

Centurian99 wrote:Well, the way I see it, there are three possible ways it will work based on the rumors:
1 - MC shooting stays the way its at. Fire 2 weapons on the move. If so, nothing really changes. Gunfexes remain as is, and provide long-range support.

2 - MC shooting changes to firing 1 weapon on the move, 2 weapons if stationary. Gunfexes still remain as is, since if they're positioned well, they'll still be able to use both weapons to good effect.

3 - MC shooting changes to 1 weapon only, whether moving or stationary. In this case, the question really becomes which weapon would be preferred: a venom cannon, or a barbed strangler (potentially twin-linked). I think the cost of a twin-linked venom cannon makes that a non-starter, but I've always thought the barbed strangler was undercosted, so a 40 points twin-linked S8 AP5 large blast marker may be a good idea.

Regardless, I think that including at least two warp blasts is going to be necessary, not for hunting backfield tanks necessarily, but for the really dangerous things - AV14 transports (i.e. the monolith and the land raider).

I disagree with #1 and #2...sort of. While I believe that the way gun fexes are played will probably remain unchanged, their effectiveness vs tanks is getting kicked in the teeth in a serious way. The fact that venom cannons can't kill any vehicle in a single shot is a huge nerf. If fact, the minimum number of shots required to kill any vehicle is the number of weapons it has +2 (one shot to break each weapon, one shot to immobilize, and a final one to kill the vehicle). Skimmers are a bit easier to take down if they are on the move since immobilizing them kills them but I don't think that's going to help all that much. So while the function of a gun fex will be the same, their ability to accomplish their job is going to be reduced to the point where it will be necessary to have another unit take over the role. I think zonethropes will be what end up filling the gap.

Railguns wrote:Is the rumor that glancing hits have no chance to get a destroyed result at all unless the target is open topped still running? That makes me very unhappy about all the models I've put Venom cannons on.

I ran some numbers on different weapons to see how things shake out and here is what I came up with. This is done assuming stranglers are S8 and venom cannons are S10 on gun fexes. If these numbers are off (or you want to see different ones run as well) please let me know.

A BS3 model firing a S8 weapon at an AV13 vehicle (no cover) on average will need 36 shots to destroy the vehicle.

A BS3 model firing a S10 weapon that can only glance at an AV 13 Vehicle (with 3 weapons and no cover) on average will need 45 shots to destroy it via weapon destroyed and immobilized results (5 required).

For a comparison, both weapons required 18 shots (on average) to destroy an AV 13 vehicle (no cover) under the 4th edition rules.

So with venom cannons shooting 2 shots each, they come out ahead of the strangler for doing anti tank work even with the nerf. An interesting side note here, imperial tanks become much more resistant to being killed via glancing hits if they purchase a pintle mounted storm bolter. This effectively gives them an additional weapon that must be destroyed before the tank can be blown up via glancing shots.

Centurian99 wrote: Can't take the BS upgrade with warp blast - at least not for the S10 shot, which is the point.

I didn't realize that. It just goes to show how long its been since I've given warpblast to a hive tyrant.

Now if stranglers are the way to go, then going the cheap route with them might be the best option, saving points for other units & more troops. I didn't see anything in the rulebook today about how to resolve TL'd blasts, so my earlier comment about re-rolling the scatter is only a guess. Even without a re-roll, most tanks are big enough that you'll still hit them if you scatter 3" or less. If blasts end up scattering D6-firers BS, as has been occasionally rumored, then even a BS of 2 means the fex will rarely miss its target. The scytal/strangler fex is very cheap, even with the addition of extended carapace, extra toughness, or an extra wound, or even regen. The talons would give these guys that much more chance to do something in CC as well, be it vs tanks or infantry. You still get into the problem of rolling high enough on the pen roll to actually hurt the tank, but thats where the new standard build could become two VC/Scytal gun fexes & 3 warpblast zoanthropes as heavies, with 2-3 strangler/scytal fexes as elites, with the elite fexes having the freedom to go tank or infantry hunting. The total points cost would even be slightly cheaper than current gunfex/dakkafex builds. This frees up a winged tyrant from needing warpblast, though he can still assault vehicles in CC with his str 6+2d6 pen value. Raveners, lictors (potentially great in some of the new scenarios), stealers, and Scytal/RC warriors pick up the slack as needed.

SteveW

Wow, nice post Phoenix! Those are the numbers I was hoping someone would run. I wish I'd seen your post before I typed the one above. Those statistics are leading me towards the idea that it may be counter-productive for nids to try and shoot ground-based tanks, and that CC may be the way to go against anything but Land Raiders, Monoliths, and skimmers.

3 Zoanthropes with warpblast will still be useful for synapse, scream, and pot shots while the CC elements are moving into range. The elite strangler/scytal fexes will be useful for the same reasons mentioned before.


SteveW

Kudos Pheonix...now that's some useful info.

Nice numbers, but the reality is a bit different no?

For example, a predator turned one way and losing it's turret and it's mobility might just be a worthless 1 shot wonder from then on--and immobile tanks become very vulnerable to assault and flank shots, both of which tend to blow tanks up alot more easily.

Something to keep in mind for Nids is S10 autoglances almost all imperial vehicles on the side, and stealers are like meltabombs on the side/rear of most tanks except they glance you to death instead of just blowing you up.

Actually, Phoenix's numbers are a pretty accurate reflection of the reality of the problem. Tyranid shooting becomes pretty ineffective at killing vehicles under the rumored 5th Edition changes. The emphasis needs to be on the word "killing" however. As other posters have suggested, Nids might only need their weapons to disrupt enemy vehicles with shaken/stunned results to allow their assault troops to close the gap and destroy the enemy in close combat. Phoenix's number's support that theory.

PanzerLeader wrote:Actually, Phoenix's numbers are a pretty accurate reflection of the reality of the problem. Tyranid shooting becomes pretty ineffective at killing vehicles under the rumored 5th Edition changes. The emphasis needs to be on the word "killing" however. As other posters have suggested, Nids might only need their weapons to disrupt enemy vehicles with shaken/stunned results to allow their assault troops to close the gap and destroy the enemy in close combat. Phoenix's number's support that theory.

That's how I play my Nids now. And 5 years ago. And tomorrow. And 5 years from now.

Nids don't have tank killing at range. They have tank stunning at range.

Nids can't be effective at killing tanks until VC kill tanks. For a very long time now, they haven't done so.

Relying on Barbed Stranglers to kill tanks has always been iffy at best, a waste of time normally, and downright frustrating at worst.

In that case, the big question is how do 'Nids deal with skimmers, particularly the Monolith.

You can still roll a 6 and immobilize it.

Besides that, you get screwed by it as even CC fexes don't do much to it and everything else does nothing.

Warp Blast will handle one if you have 2 flyrants and 3 zoanthropes, but against two or three?

"Oh boy."

Two cold beers at the LVGT to the first 'Nid player that comes up with a decent solution to 2+ Monoliths.

I guess the answer to AV13+ vehicles for Nids in 5th is going to have to be "shake then ignore, and Death or Glory if it Tank Shocks." With this in mind, maybe adding another Carnifex to the mix that I give above is a good idean to hold the nearer objectives. If an objective-based mission has at least 4 objectives, it would be nice to send a tank-denial MC at at least 3 of them, with the Zoanthropes adding support from a distance (and filling in when one of the MCs dies).

Skyth, that BS2 strangler is going to scatter a whole lot, isn't it? Maybe as the second 'fex to hold nearby objectives it would be good. But 1x Devourer to deal with light vehicles/tough troops seems better to me than 1x barbed strangler.

Unless the game is on the line, do not death or glory tanks.

Excellent chance you'll be dead if you do.

Stelek wrote:Unless the game is on the line, do not death or glory tanks.

Excellent chance you'll be dead if you do.

I dunno about that....A carnifex might do alright depending upon the vehicle. A death or glory attack auto-hits against the front armor, getting past the low WS and skimmer issue. The strength will likely be 9+2d6 without cover saves for the vehicle. Taking an average front armor value of 12-13 means that you only need to roll a 4 or 5 on 2d6 to get a pen, which isn't terrible odds. Rolling a 1 on the chart increases to a 2 with the pen roll and gives a stun result.
Rolling a 2 gives weapon destroyed
3- immobilized
4- destroyed
5+- explodes

Since a death or glory succeeds so long as you stun, destroy, or immobilize the vehicle, there is only a 1 in 6 chance of failing should you pen.

So against a russ, predator, or other AV 13+ tank the odds drop, but against AV 12 or less it looks like a fex has a fairly decent shot to take it down, and with troops scoring, it's more likely you'll see an AV11 or AV12 transport trying to tank shock at the end of the game (and then unload its passengers) than a predator or leman russ. I wouldn't risk a death or glory attack in most turns, but the odds seem good enough to at least make an opponent think twice before trying to tank shock a carnifex out of the way of an objective. The main 'problem-tanks' are again land raiders and monoliths b/c of the high armor and living metal.

What I still wonder is just how many multi-land raider or multi-monolith lists we'll see at 1850 anyway. Neither leaves many points left for troops and other supporting units.



SteveW

SteveW wrote:Rolling a 1 on the chart increases to a 2 with the pen roll and gives a stun result.

What? Pens do no such thing.

First, there's a chance you won't do anything.

Second, there's a chance you will glance and need to roll a 6 or you're dead [exception: Tau vehicles].

Third, when you do pen you need a 4+ to stop it.

Add all that up, and you just don't want to take the chance.

Monoliths can never be DOG'd. It's nearly pointless.

Stelek wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:Actually, Phoenix's numbers are a pretty accurate reflection of the reality of the problem. Tyranid shooting becomes pretty ineffective at killing vehicles under the rumored 5th Edition changes. The emphasis needs to be on the word "killing" however. As other posters have suggested, Nids might only need their weapons to disrupt enemy vehicles with shaken/stunned results to allow their assault troops to close the gap and destroy the enemy in close combat. Phoenix's number's support that theory.

That's how I play my Nids now. And 5 years ago. And tomorrow. And 5 years from now.

Nids don't have tank killing at range. They have tank stunning at range.

The question remains though, what units do you use to kill tanks once you get close? Zonethropes suffer from having to make psy tests, genestealers suffer from the rending nerf (if you roll a 6 for armor pen, you only add an extra 1d3 in 5th ed), you can only have one flyrant, and fexes are slow. Not to say that none of these options are viable, but they all have their problems. So what would be your pick(s) for the close up work? If you post the stats (attacks, strength, and any special abilities) for whatever configuration you like, I'll crunch the numbers if you like.

If you can get side armor on stealers, they can handle most tanks.

Personally for actually killing tanks, I think the question is not 'what can' but instead 'why bother'?

They don't score, and for most of them if they come near tyranid MC they will die.

That said, while fexes are slow, they can at least run, which gives them some mobility--and most tanks that run from fexes won't do anything while they do so. I don't think nids can do much to say the monolith except hope for a lucky 6 to immobilize it. Then a fex has to bang the doors until they break.

Stelek wrote:

SteveW wrote:Rolling a 1 on the chart increases to a 2 with the pen roll and gives a stun result.

What? Pens do no such thing.

First, there's a chance you won't do anything.

Second, there's a chance you will glance and need to roll a 6 or you're dead [exception: Tau vehicles].

Third, when you do pen you need a 4+ to stop it.

Add all that up, and you just don't want to take the chance.

Monoliths can never be DOG'd. It's nearly pointless.

Whoops, you're right, there is no +1. But the chances are still decent. You have something like a 92% chance to roll at least a 4 on 2d6 which will pen an AV12 or less transport. You then have a 2/3 chance of not rolling a shaken or arm destroyed on the chart. .92 x .66 = .607, so you have around a 61% chance of suceeding in a death or glory attempt with a str 9 carnifex against AV12 or less. The chances that you'll just roll a 3 to glance is 5.56%, you then have 3 favorable rolls on the damage chart to stop the oncoming tank: a 3, 5, & 6, giving you 50%. Multiplying .0556 x .5 = .0278. You add that in to the .607 from above to give you roughly a 63% total chance of taking down that tank. Is it a sure thing? No. But it is above average odds. Against armor 11 rhinos the odds go up even more.

You're absolutely correct on the monoliths, however. Just hope you block the exit portal to prevent warriors from popping out.

SteveW

Think of it like this, Steve.

You have a 37% chance for your Carnifex to die (assuming you did your math properly).

37%.

Since I don't see you taking into account extra armor, I wager it's quite a bit higher--closer to 50%.

No thanks!

How are scattering blast markers going to work against vehicles in 5th? Will it still be half str if the hole is not over the hull, or will it change like the lack of partials to be full strength if touched? If that's the case, and if the shot counts as hitting the side the hole in on, a BS2 St8 large blast template might be kind of scary against most tanks. If you scatter off the tank but still touch it, it would seem you have a pretty good chance of hitting a softer side armor where St8 would really work.

Granted, that is a lot of ifs. Depending on how it works though, those barbed stranglers might be rather scary.

Landraiders though... assuming a 'fex can not shoot two weapons on the move, maybe a TL V-cannon and some manner of angry claw for melee would be the trick. LR's are not scary if they are not transporting things (usually) so perhaps the answer will be to shake them, then try and rip them apart in melee when they get close to you?