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HQ
Kharn The Betrayer 165

Troops
9 Khorne Berzerkers. Champ with power weapon Rhino w/extra armor 290
9 Khorne Berzerkers. Rhino W/ Extra armor 239
10 lesser deamons 130
10 lesser daemons 130

Fast attack
14 raptors. Icon of Khorne. Champ with Power Fist 370
14 raptors. Icon of Khrone. Champ With power fist 370

Heavy Support
1 Obliterator 75
1 Obliterator 75
2 Obliterators 150

This comes out to 1994 points. Let me Know what you think. I am open to any and all comments, I am just trying to make a soild Chaos list that uses Khorne stuff.

i like the berzerkers, but why 9? 8 is a more khorney number, or were you just doing that to fill in points?

Agreed, dropping both down to 8 would be fluffy and let you add a champ with PWeap to the second zerker squad.

Is it really a good idea to have that few troops? Since they are the only scoring units, I would think I would want more than 16.

Iirc, demons are troops and therefore count as scoring?

yea the daemons count as troops for non force organization purposes so they are scoring units too.

Which brings the total scoring models to 36.

When taking any kind of marines, always find a way to get the sgt with a pf.

Not when the sgt is hitting at I5 and S5.

Your right, thanks for pointing that out. Dropping the number of berzerkers is a good idea. Do you think I am better off with the 4 obliterators, or should I go with two defilers?

the oblits are way better, keep them, unless the defilers are going to be kitted out for CC

Bastirous666 wrote:the oblits are way better, keep them, unless the defilers are going to be kitted out for CC

And even then I'd take the oblits anyway since you're pretty short on reliable AT firepower.

Alright, obliterators it is.

Your Obliterators will get eaten alive by Plasma-toting troops. Be very careful that your opponents never cotton onto this fact.

With a 24" range, the oblits should be able to deal with the plasma-toting troops a decent amount before they get in range (not counting suicide drop squads of course), and since it isn't an ID its manageable with enough oblits. And for that same argument, melta-toting troops will eat the defilers alive, as will missile-launcher troops, and lascannon troops, and PFists, etc.

I'm thinking moreso stuff armed with Plasma Cannons. Those have a 36" range and while the partial hits are relatively rare, the odd extra wound can be the difference between an Obliterator surviving and buying it.

I'd merge the Oblits into two 2-man teams

Nurglitch, you should be more worried about LCs than PCs.

Cheese Elemental, why would you do that? Are you thinking of KPs in 5th (which may or may not be in)?

Nope, Lascannons are nice, but they're rather wasted on Obliterators, particularly in an infantry-heavy list like this one. Sure, you can get an Instant Death result, but the extra hits from the Blast markers make them more reliable in bypassing the 5+ Invulnerable save. Not to mention that once the Plasma Cannons are done with the Obliterators, they'll sweep up any Chaos Marines left wandering around.

In fact, I'd advise against amalgamating the Obliterators into larger groups than absolutely necessary because (1) Being able to divide the Obliterator's firepower three ways is better than only being able to divide it two ways - you can always just double up on a target, and (2) Forcing your opponent to divide their firepower up three ways rather than just two means your Obliterators are more likely to survive, and (3) Hanging around in groups makes Obliterators more vulnerable to Plasma Cannons.

Nurglitch plays a different game of 40k than the rest of us.

Lascannons aren't good vs oblits in a all-infantry army?

75 points and 1 save later, it's gone.

Versus a marine, who in a chaos army is about 1/4 the points...

The reason you don't run single oblits is 2 oblits doesn't give up anything if you lose one. You just lose a oblit, and move on.

Please play the same game as the rest of us.

Nope, Lascannons are nice, but they're rather wasted on Obliterators, particularly in an infantry-heavy list like this one. Sure, you can get an Instant Death result, but the extra hits from the Blast markers make them more reliable in bypassing the 5+ Invulnerable save.

Total BS. In 4th (which is what you're talking about, right?), you get 50% more hits (the second one won't ever be more than a partial) against a squad of 2 Oblits. Compare that to effectively dealing 100% more wounds and the LC is obviously superior as far as Oblit-hunting goes.

lascannons, in my opinion, are much more of a threat to oblits.

Sure, Lascannons are more of a threat to your Obliterators, particularly if you take them singly. Plasma Cannons are more of a threat to your entire army including the Obliterators (or more of a threat to your Obliterators in larger units than singletons).

If someone could fact check this statement: You're more likely to fail two 5+ Invulnerable saves against two Plasma Hits (where one hits on 4+, rather than the first 3+, and depends on the first roll), than fail one 5+ Invulnerable save against a Lascannon causing Instant Death.

Nurglitch wrote:Sure, Lascannons are more of a threat to your Obliterators, particularly if you take them singly. Plasma Cannons are more of a threat to your entire army including the Obliterators (or more of a threat to your Obliterators in larger units than singletons).

If someone could fact check this statement: You're more likely to fail two 5+ Invulnerable saves against two Plasma Hits (where one hits on 4+, rather than the first 3+, and depends on the first roll), than fail one 5+ Invulnerable save against a Lascannon causing Instant Death.

But the Lascannon is more likely to cause 2 wounds.

How do you figure?

Assuming BS4:

LC: 3+ to hit, 2+ to wound, 5+ to save.

PC: 3+ to hit, 2+ to wound, 5+ to save.


.66x.833x.66 = .362 wounds per LC shot (all wounds cause ID, or two wounds for every one, so we can multiply this by 2 to get .724 wounds per LC shot at an oblit regardless of how many there are)

.66x.833x.66 = .362 wounds per PC shot (fully covered model)
+.5x.833x.66 = .275 wounds per PC shot (partially covered model)
_________________________________
.637 wounds per PC shot at a squad of 2 oblits with one full and one partial hit.







P.S. Feel free to disagree or prove me wrong, I know I'm no mathhammermatician.

I'm not a statistician either, but I don't think you've added the probability of the extra wounds caused by either Instant Death or Blast hits quite right.

For one thing, there are no fractions of wounds in Warhammer, so I'd suggest it's better to see the relative probability of causing 1 or 2 wounds.

Lascannon
(4/6)*(5/6)*(4/6) or 80/216 of causing 1 wound.
(4/6)*(5/6)*(4/6) or 80/216 of causing 2 wounds.

Plasma Cannon
(4/6)*(5/6)*(4/6) + (4/6*3/6)*(5/6)*(4/6)) or 120/216 of causing 1 wound.
((4/6)*(5/6)*(4/6) + (4/6*3/6)*(5/6)*(4/6)/2) or 60/216 of causing 2 wounds.

Basically the Lascannon's ability to cause Instant Death is the same as its likelihood of causing a wound, while the Plasma Cannon is more likely to cause at least one wound where two hits, one partial, are involved. That would seem to balance out in favour of the Lascannons, eh?

Right, well like I said in my post earlier, the LC is more likely to cause 2 wounds. The PC is also dependent on a squad of more than one. Your 120/216 only applies to 1 full and 1 partial PC hits, so once one oblit is gone, your chance to kill the second drops below the LC's ability. You also need to remember that, while it may cause 2 wounds, the 2 remaining wounds can still fire 2 Plasma cannons/lascannon/whatever back at you, while the LC's wound(s) eliminate one of those weapons altogether.

Whoever lets you get partial'd by a plasma cannon onto oblits is a doofus.

i.e. It doesn't happen and lascannon hits do.

Another pointless discussion revolving around nothing.

Yay.

If there are two Obliterators taking two unsaved wounds from a Plasma blast, then there is only one Obliterator to shoot back, the same as if one does not saved a wound caused by a Lascannon. Do you mean that although the Plasma Cannon is more likely to cause a wound, that there will still be two Obliterators to fire back?

If the Obliterator makes its save against the single wound from the Lascannon, then there are two Obliterators not only left alive, but utterly unharmed.

One Plasma Cannon will be more reliable (odd thing to think about with Plasma Weaponry eh?) in causing wounds on the Obliterators than one Lascannon, even if they are somewhat less reliable at automatically killing individuals in groups, and definitely less reliable at killing singletons.

If you put a premium on being able to reliably put wounds on Obliterators rather than hoping for the lucky potshots to take out Obliterators, then there's a point in favour of Plasma Cannons.

These weapons are not alone though, and come as part of any army, and sometimes even come in groups. Single wounds caused by reliable weapons and unreliable opportunity wounds add up. Obviously a mix is best, but where infantry-heavy Marine armies are concerned, the Plasma Cannon is powerfully advantaged.

One Lascannon is likely to cause Instant Death on any one Obliterator. Two Plasma Cannons are more likely to cause two unsaved wounds on any unit of Obliterators.

In a Devastator Squad you can have nearly three Plasma Cannons for two Lascannons. Plasma Cannons are 20pts cheaper on a Dreadnought than Twin-Linked Lascannons.

Against Khorne Berzerkers and Raptors the Plasma Cannon is much more efficient than the Lascannon because the latter loses its Instant Death effect and is limited to potting a single model a turn.