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There has been some contention about Dark Eldar Wych weapons stemming from GW's DE FAQ and whether or not their ability to halve the opponent's WS applies only when the opponents attack the Wyches or also when the Wyches attack their opponents.

For the Adepticon FAQ we ruled that the DE FAQ contained a 'typo' and that the Wych weapon bonus applies only to attacks made against the Wyches. There have been some questions regarding this ruling so I thought I'd share a bit of the thought process that went into making it here.


The DE codex (2nd edition) says on page 9:

"All enemies with an unmodified Strength below 6 halve their WS characteristic (rounding up) for attacks made against the Wyches. Models with a Strength of 6 or more are unaffected."


This text is perfectly clear, only when the enemies actually attack the Wyches do the Wych weapons have an effect. There is absolutely no bonus for the Wyches when they attack the enemy.


The GW Dark Eldar FAQ says:

"*If an enemy unit is locked in combat with a Wych unit and another unit, the enemy unit only counts as having their Weapon Skill affected when attacking and being attacked by the Wyches."


Now, this ruling seems to clearly contradict the rule in the codex and implies that the Wyches get the Wych weapon bonus when making their attacks, but what does this FAQ ruling actually SAY?

It covers a situation where an enemy unit is locked in combat with both a Wych unit and another DE unit. It was answering the question of whether the Wych weapon bonus applies if the enemy unit directs its attacks at the non-Wych unit.

Unfortunately, it appears as though the FAQ writer didn't have a very good grasp of the (perfectly clear) Wych weapon rules and incorrectly wrote that the bonus also applies when the Wyches make their attacks.


But what if you believe that FAQs are infallable and that this ruling clearly overrides the codex wording? Well, what does the FAQ ruling actually say by the RAW?

It only actually applies when an enemy unit is engaged by both a Wych unit and another DE unit. So even if you wanted to try to play by the strict RAW of the FAQ (and ignore the fact that this is almost certainly a simple error by the FAQ writer) this bonus would only ever apply when the Wych unit engages an enemy unit along with another DE unit.

Doesn't that seem a little strange?



The last thing to cover is the notion that some people have that if the Wych weapon bonus only affects attacks made against the Wyches as the codex states this makes Wych weapons "pointless" or "useless".

This is simply a ridiculous statement. Halving the enemy's WS means that attacking models which have a higher WS than the Wych (WS5-8) will need a '4+' to hit the Wych instead of the '3+' they'd normally need. Also, a model with a WS2 will need a '5+' to hit the Wych as opposed to the normal '4+'.

So clearly the Wych weapons have a use when applied only to opponent's attacks, it just may not be as powerful as some DE players wish it to be.

Regarding: the "harder to hit" situation - Opponents with a lower WS have a harder time hitting Wyches with Weapons ( makes sense ). Opponents that have a better WS suddenly find themselves having a harder time hitting Wyches with Weapons ( okay ). So, better WS and worse WS are both affected... but equal skills are not ?.. erm... In all instances the chances of Wyches hitting an opponent are never changed if the effect does not include there attacks against ( insert unit ).

And in a grammar sense the DE FAQ actually states ( note where and how the word ONLY is used ) the models interacting with wyches are affected - models interacting with non wyches are not. NOTE: the DE FAQ does not state only in multiple assaults. The word only again is specifying those models that are or are not affected.

If the FAQ if reversed from a question prior it would be something akin to: if a unit is assaulted by a unit of Warriors and a unit of Wyches how do Wych Weapons work ? For the answer see the DE FAQ - and noted from above the FAQ is not based on Multiple Assaults ONLY.

Something to consider... An Archite joins a squad of Wyches and assaults an enemy unit. This situation satisfies the DE FAQ ( enemy is in an assault with a Wych unit ( Wyches ) and another unit ( Archite ) - one unit as a whole but treated separately due to IC status in close combat. Based on the FAQ the enemy would be affected.

Something else to consider... Initiative order: the previous turn a squad of 5-man squad of Terminators assaults a 20-man unit of DE Warriors ( units stand there ground after resolving close combat ). A 10-man unit of Wyches engages the Terminators on their turn. Wyches would stike first, followed by the Warriors, and finally the Terminators. At I6 we don't even know yet which unit the SM player would like to have his Terminators direct their attacks against. The DE player knows however where the Wyches are attacking - and lets say they remove two Terminators ( after hitting them on 3s based on the FAQ ). Warriors make their attacks next but fail to score any casualties. Lastly, the Terminators direct their ( unhindered ) attention on to the Warriors and eliminate four models. Now...

The Terminators actually win the round and the Wyches and Warriors have to test. This results in the Wyches passing ( remain in close combat ) and the Warriors fleeing. The next combat phase has the Wyches engaged with the Terminators. Do the Wyches now suddenly stop hitting the Termies on 3s because it is not a multiple assault ? No... because as noted above again the DE FAQ is not written as only in multiple assaults.

-- original message via email --

Will need clarification for Dark Eldar (re: wych weapons ) for Games Day this year if possible. There seems to be some confusion based on the codex text and the de faq on how wych weapons affect opposing models. Some believe the half WS only applies to models when they attack Wyches. Others believe the reduction applies when attacking or being attacked by Wyches.

I for one believe the half WS is used when attacking and being attacked, else there is no benefit from being equipped with them ( see the "harder to hit" text above though ): other than the negate +1 attack for second ccw but that rule is pretty clear so lets ignore it for the time being.

Wyches A vs Wyches B ( no wych weapons ) - the two units below are kitted as standard with matching profiles so their combat resolutions should be the same...

Wyches A at WS4 needs to hit Wyches B WS4 on 4s
Wyches B at WS4 needs to hit Wyches A WS4 on 4s

Wyches A vs Wyches B ( wych weapons for Wyches A only ) - one of the squads is equipped with wych weapons that should give an advantage in close combat. Here we have an ill example though if half WS only works when attacking models with wych weapons...

Wyches A at WS4 needs to hit Wyches B WS4 on 4s
Wyches B at WS2 needs to hit Wyches A WS4 on 4s

...erm. There is no difference as compared to the two units without weapons ( both units still hitting on 4s ). The controller of Wyches A has paid points for a unit that essentially has remained unchanged.

Wyches A vs Wyches B ( wych weapons for Wyches A only ) - one of the squads is equipped with wych weapons that should give an advantage in close combat. Here we have a better example though if half WS works when attacking and being attacked by models with wych weapons...

Wyches A at WS4 needs to hit Wyches B WS2 on 3s
Wyches B at WS2 needs to hit Wyches A WS4 on 4s

...now we can see how the advantage is gained, and would make more sense.

I'm sorry Yak, 99.8% of the time, I agree with you. This time I'm gonna have to disagree. This will be one of the VERY few times I contend RAW.

You're 100% correct interpreting the wych weapons rule RAW. But that CAN'T be the intention of the author of the codex. The point of the rule is to make the gfamer do unnecessary math that doesn't affect the tabletop game at all?

SM directs attacks at wyches. SM halves WS. So the SM who would have hit on a 4 in hand to hand will now hit on a ...4?

Imperial Guardsman directs attacks at wyches. IG halves WS (and rounds up to 2, because his opponent wants a good sportsmanship score). So the IG who would have hit on a 4 in hand to hand will now hit on a ...4?

To get the rule to actually DO anything, you would have to apply it to a model with WS2, before the WS is halved. Besides the never-used IG conscripts, and the much beloved Tau, who will simply bunny-hop away, what else does this interpretation affect?

On the other hand, if the halved WS affects not only the opponent's swings, but the wyches' swings themselves, the rule actually has a PURPOSE. Now the wyches strike the SM on a 3+, instead of the 4+ your interpretation uses. Without the wyches' attacks gaining a benefit from the halved WS, the rule is just a waste of codex space.

Alot of text. Hard to read it all.

I personally play that Wych Weapons halve your weapon skill in ALL ways so long as you are attacking the Wyches.

If you are attacking non-Wyches instead, your WS is not affected.

This really rarely comes up, as most DE armies run either lots of Wyches or none at all...

toxic_wisdom wrote:

If the FAQ if reversed from a question prior it would be something akin to: if a unit is assaulted by a unit of Warriors and a unit of Wyches how do Wych Weapons work ? For the answer see the DE FAQ - and noted from above the FAQ is not based on Multiple Assaults ONLY.

Something to consider... An Archite joins a squad of Wyches and assaults an enemy unit. This situation satisfies the DE FAQ ( enemy is in an assault with a Wych unit ( Wyches ) and another unit ( Archite ) - one unit as a whole but treated separately due to IC status in close combat. Based on the FAQ the enemy would be affected.

. . .

The Terminators actually win the round and the Wyches and Warriors have to test. This results in the Wyches passing ( remain in close combat ) and the Warriors fleeing. The next combat phase has the Wyches engaged with the Terminators. Do the Wyches now suddenly stop hitting the Termies on 3s because it is not a multiple assault ? No... because as noted above again the DE FAQ is not written as only in multiple assaults.

The fact is, that FAQ question was originally written in the 3rd edition FAQ exactly as you state. It was a question about a unit fighting a multiple combat with Wyches and another unit.

When 4th edition came out, they took all the 3rd edition FAQs (which were written in Q&A format) and made them into bullet points, which is why the FAQ clarification is written as it is.


The issue is, the codex is pefectly clear on the matter. FAQs don't typically change clear codex rules for no apparent reason. What happens when an enemy unit is fighting a Wych unit and another unit is at least a situation that makes sense for a FAQ question and answer and frankly the most logical reason for the FAQ answer to be written as is is because it is a typo, not because it is supposed to be some sweeping change to the Wych weapon rules.

And yes, the FAQ played by the RAW only works in multiple assaults. The FAQ doesn't have to use the word "only" because we have a perfectly clear rule in the codex already. The FAQ only addresses a very specific situation and that situation is the only time the FAQ ruling would be utilized. In all other cases the standard text from the codex would be in effect.

Now, I do want to make something clear: I don't really advocate playing this "RAW" style where Wych weapons have extra abilities only when in combat along with another DE unit. I think that the ruling is a typo and should be seen as such. I was simply pointing out that the FAQ ruling is not a blanket statement allowing Wyches to halve their opponent's WS when attacking them.

DeathGod wrote:I'm sorry Yak, 99.8% of the time, I agree with you. This time I'm gonna have to disagree. This will be one of the VERY few times I contend RAW.

You're 100% correct interpreting the wych weapons rule RAW. But that CAN'T be the intention of the author of the codex. The point of the rule is to make the gfamer do unnecessary math that doesn't affect the tabletop game at all?

SM directs attacks at wyches. SM halves WS. So the SM who would have hit on a 4 in hand to hand will now hit on a ...4?

Imperial Guardsman directs attacks at wyches. IG halves WS (and rounds up to 2, because his opponent wants a good sportsmanship score). So the IG who would have hit on a 4 in hand to hand will now hit on a ...4?.

But why do you assume that Wych weapon should have some sort of effect on every model attacking the Wych? Not every ability in 40K affects every model. Wych weapons (as written in the codex) basically just mean that 99% of enemies that attack Wyches will do so on a 4+ regardless of their WS (only WS2, 9 or 10 don't hit Wyches on a 4+).

Why isn't this ability good enough? Why do you assume that it should have an affect on a WS 3 or 4 opponent, just because that's who they fight the most and you'd like it to have an effect on? That shouldn't be enough of a reason to take a poorly written FAQ answer and apply it across the board to all situations.

Bear in mind also that the protection from opponents' attacks effect also kicks in against WS3 and 4 guys when the Wyches get the +1WS combat drugs.

yakface wrote:"...The issue is, the codex is pefectly clear on the matter. FAQs don't typically change clear codex rules for no apparent reason. What happens when an enemy unit is fighting a Wych unit and another unit is at least a situation that makes sense for a FAQ question and answer and frankly the most logical reason for the FAQ answer to be written as is is because it is a typo, not because it is supposed to be some sweeping change to the Wych weapon rules..."

But FAQs do take priority over previous rules: in this case the reprint DE Codex lists the Wych Weapons ability to halve opponent's WS when they attack Wyches. The 4th Ed FAQ now list the Wych Weapons ability to halve opponent's WS when attacking AND being attacked by Wyches. The rule is tucked away in an answer to a question regarding a unit that is engaged with both Wyches and another DE unit. But the condition is NOT based on multiple assault ONLY because...

yakface wrote:"...And yes, the FAQ played by the RAW only works in multiple assaults. The FAQ doesn't have to use the word "only" because we have a perfectly clear rule in the codex already. The FAQ only addresses a very specific situation and that situation is the only time the FAQ ruling would be utilized. In all other cases the standard text from the codex would be in effect..."

...the emphasis is not on multiple assaults ONLY, simply which models are interacting with a Wych unit ONLY. If the FAQ was written to state the double edged effect of Wyches works ONLY in multiple assaults, then that would be the case and we would have an odd rule condition where half WS is based on multiple versus non multiple.

But the FAQ is not written that way ( only in multiple assaults ) so the FAQ can be read as a trump to the original codex which now includes attacking and being attacked.

And why should this be limited to the view of a typo error ? Is it to hard to believe that WAS the intent of how the weapons worked ? Hhmmm... the Codex: Harlequins did exactly the same thing.

toxic_wisdom wrote:

And why should this be limited to the view of a typo error ? Is it to hard to believe that WAS the intent of how the weapons worked ? Hhmmm... the Codex: Harlequins did exactly the same thing.

Why is it a typo?

When the Dark Eldar revision project first hit in WD, the rules were: Opponents halve their WS when they attack the Wyches.
When the Dark Eldar revision rules were printed in Chapter Approved: 2003 the rules for Wych weapons were the same.
When the Dark Eldar revision rules were re-printed again in CA: 2004 the rules for Wych weapons were the same.
When the Dark Eldar 2nd edition codex was printed the rules for Wych weapons were the same.

Then suddenly in the 4th edition FAQ they decide to completely change the rule but they do so by tucking it away in a ruling about multiple combats?

It just doesn't make any sense at all, especially considering how the 3rd edition FAQs where changed into the 4th edition FAQs it is very easy for a question/answer being condensed into a single bullet point answer to get facts unintentionally incorrect.

...the emphasis is not on multiple assaults ONLY, simply which models are interacting with a Wych unit ONLY. If the FAQ was written to state the double edged effect of Wyches works ONLY in multiple assaults, then that would be the case and we would have an odd rule condition where half WS is based on multiple versus non multiple.

But the FAQ is not written that way ( only in multiple assaults ) so the FAQ can be read as a trump to the original codex which now includes attacking and being attacked.

This is incorrect. The FAQ bullet point says (again):

"*If an enemy unit is locked in combat with a Wych unit and another unit, the enemy unit only counts as having their Weapon Skill affected when attacking and being attacked by the Wyches." [/i]


That gives a very specific situation in which the ruling is enforced. It is important to remember that the codex has very clear rules that are used unless the FAQ specifically says otherwise. By the RAW there is absolutely no basis to assume that this ruling applies when a unit is not locked in combat with both a Wych unit and another unit.


Ultimately, I don't play Dark Eldar and I don't have any opinions about Wyches being too powerful or not powerful enough. I'm just looking at the situation and seeing something that looks like a duck and quacks like a duck. Obviously I've made a judgement call but I don't think it is unreasonable.

Perhaps you can ask yourself this: If the situation was reversed, that Wych weapons in the codex clearly said they worked when attacking and being attacked and the 4th edition FAQ came along with a ruling about multiple combats and it only mentioned the bonus about when units attacked the Wyches (and not vice-versa) would you still be as gung-ho about following the ruling?

If the truth is that you wouldn't, then perhaps you are too close to the issue to see where I'm coming from (I'm not saying this is the case with you, but it could be).

So unit of Space Marines is locked down with a squad of Wyches: during the attacks the Wyches hit normally as WS4 vs Ws4 - hitting on 4s. The Space Marines strike back, normally hitting on 4s but now halved, so they are hitting on... 4s.

Going into the next phase a unit of Hellions adds to the ongoing assault. Now, the Wyches hit the SMs on 3s because there is a multiple assault. The Hellions strike as well but hitting the SMs on 4s ( barring an enhanced WS via combat drugs ). The SMs now attack dividing their attacks between the Hellions WS4 vs WS4 - hitting on 4s... and the Wyches WS2 vs WS4 - hitting on 4s...

The Hellions use their Hit-n-Run at the end of the combat leaving the Wyches and Space Marines to fend for themselves in the next round... Wyches hitting on 4s again and the Space MArines hitting on 4s as well.

Okay, that makes sense ? If the DE FAQ was meant to change the way Wych Weapons worked based on a specific situation only - multiple assaults, then it should have been written as such. In that sense the rules would be changed making the unit itself better as others jumped into the mix ( problem though as I pointed out is that an Archite is not a Wych unit - but rather an IC unit that also has Wych Weapons ). But once more for clarity, the DE FAQ is written as such to answer what happens to models and their WS when they are interacting with Wyches and non-Wyches.

You're suggesting the rewording might be a typo of sorts: that the author might not have been aware of ho the weapons originally worked. Fair enough... But along parallel lines the same could be said that the rewording was intentional to clarify the intent of how Wych Weapons were meant to work.

-- Better WS - harder to hit
-- Worse WS - harder to hit
-- Equal WS - unaffected ?

So am I to understand that a unit of Wyches suddenly becomes better ( and only improves itself ) when something like a last man standing Reaver model hits the enmey unit as well in close combat ? Hhmmm... double assault an enemy unit with a Wych squad and a Haemonculi on Jetbike if I want to use half WS both ways for the Wyches ?

You seem to continue to misunderstand my point.

I am not advocating that Wych weapons should behave a certain way only when they are locked in a multiple combat. I am saying that is all the RAW say based on the FAQ.

I agree with you that idea is ridiculously silly and should not be utilized.


What I am saying is this:


The third edition FAQ had a question asking what happens when an enemy unit is locked with both a Wych unit along with another (non-Wych) Dark Eldar unit. If some of the models in that enemy unit attack the Wyches while other models attack the other DE unit is the WS for the entire enemy unit halved or just for the models attacking the Wyches?

The answer was that only the models attacking the Wych unit had their WS halved.


However, when this question & answer was edited into a bullet point for the 4th edition FAQ whoever the person was in charge of this task didn't double-check the codex closely enough and incorrectly added the bit about Wyches attacking enemy models which should not have been included.

I believe that it is perfectly reasonable to make this judgement call for all the reasons I've posted before. To re-iterate them:

1) FAQs are not generally in the business of changing perfectly clear rules.
2) If the change was intentional its placement in a ruling about multiple combats is incredibly odd.
3) The ruling as written in the FAQ creates a ridiculous situation where Wyches gain a benefit only when locked in combat along with another Dark Eldar unit.
4) GW had at least 3 new versions of the DE army list and they could have added that change at any point if this is something they really wanted to do.

One thing you may not have considered is the Wych Lord and her Retinue. Since ICs fight as separate units in HtH you have multiple DE units in this fight. The WS halving going both ways is a real lifesaver for the Lord.

I always try to get multiple units into HtH normally the Wych Squad and a pack of Warp Beasts as they can actually keep up with a Raider.

Did you consider the typo went the other way instead of how you interpreted it?

Also, Wych weapons deny the opposing models an extra attack for an additional cc weapon, very handy vs. Orks.

And, as Mannahnin mentioned, if you get the +1 WS, your opponents now need 5's to hit. Running 3 wych squads you are fairly likely to get this result.

Otherwise, Yak is right, they only affect the returning attacks. Would it be simpler to say it halves the enemies WS, probably, but that's not how its written (and hence, not how I play).

Semi-related: I am curious to see what's going to happen to Wyches in the new DE dex. They are pretty balanced now, good in hth (that 4+ invulnerable is amazing) but very vulnerable to shooting.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Boss GreenNutz wrote:One thing you may not have considered is the Wych Lord and her Retinue. Since ICs fight as separate units in HtH you have multiple DE units in this fight. The WS halving going both ways is a real lifesaver for the Lord.

I'm confused, how does having multiple DE units work to any advantage?

You won't get the bonus if you don't have wych weapons, but I don't think I've ever seen anyone run a wych lords retinue without wych weapons.

Of course the rule was really built for wych and non-wych combats, but if you did run a wych lord retinue without wych weapons...it would only affect the lord since they automatically come with wych weapons.

Guess I'm just confused what the lord and retinue do for each other.

The current FAQ states that the WS is halved both ways if multiple DE units are involved in CC. Since a Lord is an IC, she fights as a separate unit in HtH and thus you meet the criteria for having multiple units. If you run Lelith, pick the +1 WS for the retinue drug and most opponents are hitting on a 5+.

Boss GreenNutz wrote:

Did you consider the typo went the other way instead of how you interpreted it?

Did I consider that the perfectly clear Wych Weapon rules in the codex are a typo that slipped through four separate re-printings of the army list and that GW chose to correct that typo by putting in a clarification about fighting in a multiple combat?

Sure I considered that possibility, but honestly that is such an unlikely scenario that I cannot fathom it as the truth.

[quote=yakfaceThe FAQ bullet point says (again):

"*If an enemy unit is locked in combat with a Wych unit and another unit, the enemy unit only counts as having their Weapon Skill affected when attacking and being attacked by the Wyches." [/i]

Stop using freaky colored text. My eyes hurt now.

fullheadofhair wrote:

"*If an enemy unit is locked in combat with a Wych unit and another unit, the enemy unit only counts as having their Weapon Skill affected when attacking and being attacked by the Wyches."


I believe that this FAQ is perfectly clear and I disagree with your intrepretation. As you have said this sentence doesn't only cover multiple combats. This sentence basically explains that Wych weapons half WS for both attacking and being attacked.

You are totally wrong on this. Unit A is locked in combat by Unit Wyches and Unit Warriors, Unit A only counts as having their Weapon Skill affected when attacking and being attacked by the Unit Wyches . From the sentence Unit Warrior can easily be subtracted to leave the effect of wyche weapons. This is basic comprehension and all it is doing is which part of unit A is affected by the wyches as well as specifying the effect of the weapons quite clearly.

I don't believe I ever said that sentence doesn't only cover multiple combats, in fact I repeatedly stated the opposite.

What you say (that the FAQ applies in all situations) would be true if we didn't have a perfectly clear rule in the codex. But we do indeed have the rule in the codex, and the FAQ bullet point is written as a question to a (supposedly) difficult situation and then an answer on how to play such a situation.

The question (or point of confusion) is:

"If an enemy unit is locked in combat with a Wych unit and another unit. . ."


To which the answer on how to play that difficult situation is then explained:

". . .the enemy unit only counts as having their Weapon Skill affected when attacking and being attacked by the Wyches."



In all other cases the normal rules from the codex would be used because the FAQ doesn't express that we should use the ruling in any other situation.

So by the RAW the Wyches only ignore the rules in their cdoex when involved in a multiple combat, which most people seem to agree is a pretty absurd idea, hence the rest of my points that you find fault with.

yakface wrote:

fullheadofhair wrote:

"*If an enemy unit is locked in combat with a Wych unit and another unit, the enemy unit only counts as having their Weapon Skill affected when attacking and being attacked by the Wyches."


I believe that this FAQ is perfectly clear and I disagree with your intrepretation. As you have said this sentence doesn't only cover multiple combats. This sentence basically explains that Wych weapons half WS for both attacking and being attacked.

You are totally wrong on this. Unit A is locked in combat by Unit Wyches and Unit Warriors, Unit A only counts as having their Weapon Skill affected when attacking and being attacked by the Unit Wyches . From the sentence Unit Warrior can easily be subtracted to leave the effect of wyche weapons. This is basic comprehension and all it is doing is which part of unit A is affected by the wyches as well as specifying the effect of the weapons quite clearly.

I don't believe I ever said that sentence doesn't only cover multiple combats, in fact I repeatedly stated the opposite.

***** In an earlier post you replied "I am not advocating that Wych weapons should behave a certain way only when they are locked in a multiple combat." which I took to mean you believed it didn't cover multiple combats only.

What you say (that the FAQ applies in all situations) would be true if we didn't have a perfectly clear rule in the codex. But we do indeed have the rule in the codex, and the FAQ bullet point is written as a question to a (supposedly) difficult situation and then an answer on how to play such a situation.

The question (or point of confusion) is:

"If an enemy unit is locked in combat with a Wych unit and another unit. . ."


To which the answer on how to play that difficult situation is then explained:

". . .the enemy unit only counts as having their Weapon Skill affected when attacking and being attacked by the Wyches."



In all other cases the normal rules from the codex would be used because the FAQ doesn't express that we should use the ruling in any other situation.

So by the RAW the Wyches only ignore the rules in their cdoex when involved in a multiple combat, which most people seem to agree is a pretty absurd idea, hence the rest of my points that you find fault with.

***** but thats the point I disagree with your interpretation. Too me this is to clear up the effect of wyche weapons in that only those attacked by wyche weapons are WS halved. While it is fine and dandy in this example with a multiple unit I see absolutely no reason why it cannot be applied to a unit in combat against a single unit. As you say, it is absurd to treat it differently.

****** FAQ trumps codex no matter how clear the codex rule appears to be, that is how we all play this game - we cannot selectively ignore a rule. So for me RAW until it is re-FAQ'ed is WS is halved attacking or being attacked by wyche weapons (and no, I don't play DE - not until the new codex anyway).

****** Like you said earlier I believe (I will paraphrase) - poor wording and poor workmanship by the FAQ writer.

fullheadofhair wrote:
In an earlier post you replied "I am not advocating that Wych weapons should behave a certain way only when they are locked in a multiple combat." which I took to mean you believed it didn't cover multiple combats only.

Sorry for the confusion. I only meant that I don't advocate playing that way (where Wyches get the bonus only when in a multiple combat) despite what the RAW say IMO (that Wyches do only get the bonus when locked in a multiple combat).

but thats the point I disagree with your interpretation. Too me this is to clear up the effect of wyche weapons in that only those attacked by wyche weapons are WS halved. While it is fine and dandy in this example with a multiple unit I see absolutely no reason why it cannot be applied to a unit in combat against a single unit. As you say, it is absurd to treat it differently.

FAQ trumps codex no matter how clear the codex rule appears to be, that is how we all play this game - we cannot selectively ignore a rule. So for me RAW until it is re-FAQ'ed is WS is halved attacking or being attacked by wyche weapons (and no, I don't play DE - not until the new codex anyway).

FAQ rulings only supercede codex rules in the areas they specifically override. To simply assume that a ruling which addresses a specific game situation suddenly applies throughout the game is improper use of a FAQ.

For example, if there was a Necron FAQ bullet point for the Necron Veil of Darkness that said:

"If the Necron Lord is falling back, the Veil of Darkness cannot be used."


Would you be arguing that a Necron Lord can never use his VoD in any circumstance? I'm sure you wouldn't, because the FAQ ruling has a specific instance listed to which the ruling is applied.

The exact same is true of the DE ruling. It specifies a very clear instance where the ruling is applied and that would be the only case the codex rules are legally overridden.

It seems to me that the FAQ does not supercede what is in the DE codex at all.

DE Codex: "All enemies with an unmodified Strength below 6 halve their WS characteristic (rounding up) for attacks made against the Wyches. Models with a Strength of 6 or more are unaffected."

So all the attacks made by the enemy have WS halved against the wyches.

FAQ: If an enemy unit is locked in combat with a Wych unit and another unit, the enemy unit only counts as having their Weapon Skill affected when attacking and being attacked by the Wyches."

So if an ork boyz unit and an ork nob (with waagh banner ws5) unit are both locked in combat with a DE raider unit and a wych unit, and the Nobs attack the raiders, they hit on a 3+, unless the Wyches attacked the nobs, rather than the boys, then they attack the raiders with a 4+ as the wych weapons keep them from attacking at their full potential. reguardless, the wyches still attack both the nobs and the boys on a 4+, due to the fact that noting in the FAQ allows them to half the opponents WS when they wyches are attacking.

Again there is nothing in the FAQ that says that you half weapon skill for the Wyches attacks, only that they are AFFECTED by the Wych weapons even if they do not attack the wyches, if the wychs attacked them before their initiative.

since the affect of the wych weapon is that you half your WS when attacking, that still stands.

yakface wrote:

fullheadofhair wrote:
In an earlier post you replied "I am not advocating that Wych weapons should behave a certain way only when they are locked in a multiple combat." which I took to mean you believed it didn't cover multiple combats only.

Sorry for the confusion. I only meant that I don't advocate playing that way (where Wyches get the bonus only when in a multiple combat) despite what the RAW say IMO (that Wyches do only get the bonus when locked in a multiple combat).

but thats the point I disagree with your interpretation. Too me this is to clear up the effect of wyche weapons in that only those attacked by wyche weapons are WS halved. While it is fine and dandy in this example with a multiple unit I see absolutely no reason why it cannot be applied to a unit in combat against a single unit. As you say, it is absurd to treat it differently.

FAQ trumps codex no matter how clear the codex rule appears to be, that is how we all play this game - we cannot selectively ignore a rule. So for me RAW until it is re-FAQ'ed is WS is halved attacking or being attacked by wyche weapons (and no, I don't play DE - not until the new codex anyway).

FAQ rulings only supercede codex rules in the areas they specifically override. To simply assume that a ruling which addresses a specific game situation suddenly applies throughout the game is improper use of a FAQ.

For example, if there was a Necron FAQ bullet point for the Necron Veil of Darkness that said:

"If the Necron Lord is falling back, the Veil of Darkness cannot be used."


Would you be arguing that a Necron Lord can never use his VoD in any circumstance? I'm sure you wouldn't, because the FAQ ruling has a specific instance listed to which the ruling is applied.

The exact same is true of the DE ruling. It specifies a very clear instance where the ruling is applied and that would be the only case the codex rules are legally overridden.

I disagree with you because as you say having two different rules is nonsensical. However, I am quite happy to agree to disagree and will let my opponent choose which way they want to play it - I am happy with both interpretations and as allowing the FAQ to take precedent over the codex brings an advantage to the DE player I am sure no one will complain.

Sushicaddy wrote:"...Again there is nothing in the FAQ that says that you half weapon skill for the Wyches attacks, only that they are AFFECTED by the Wych weapons even if they do not attack the wyches, if the wychs attacked them before their initiative..."

You mean we should just ignore the text that says attacking and being attacked by...

In simplest terms:

The DE FAQ does not create a rule that improves the performance of Wych Weapons based on multiple assaults.
The DE FAQ does explain which models are affected by Wych Weapons.
The DE FAQ also explains how Wych Weapons work: when attacking and being attacked.

fullheadofhair wrote:I disagree with you because as you say having two different rules is nonsensical. However, I am quite happy to agree to disagree and will let my opponent choose which way they want to play it - I am happy with both interpretations and as allowing the FAQ to take precedent over the codex brings an advantage to the DE player I am sure no one will complain.

But, to use your terminology, the nonsensical-ness is irrelevant. The RAW is very clear. We have a simple If-Then scenario and yakface is clearly right with his interpretation of the RAW. If multiple combat, then different rules for fighting wyches apply. Since you think any "intent" is irrelevant, any "typo" is irrelevant, you must face the clear reading of the RAW here or suffer the taint of hypocrisy.

For what it's worth, I play DE, as well. At first, I was like, "yeah!" when I read this. Later, I came to realize that it was an advantage not intended for my unit so I don't argue for it's use when I play opponents because I know (deep down) I would be cheating.

Furthermore, Sushicaddy gives another interesting point and interpretation: "...their Weapon Skill affected when...". Ok, but how are they affected when attacking wyches? Well, in accordance with the DE Codex, then when attacking wyches their WS is cut in half. Ok, then how are they affected when being attacked by wyches? There is no advantage listed anywhere that affects them when being attacked by wyches, so no actual effect affects them.

jupistar wrote:
But, to use your terminology, the nonsensical-ness is irrelevant. The RAW is very clear. We have a simple If-Then scenario and yakface is clearly right with his interpretation of the RAW. If multiple combat, then different rules for fighting wyches apply. Since you think any "intent" is irrelevant, any "typo" is irrelevant, you must face the clear reading of the RAW here or suffer the taint of hypocrisy.

Two points. I disagree with "we have a simple if-then scenerio" because that makes an absurb situation. I say effect can easily be transferred to single unit conflict. Read the rest of the thread, others have raised it. How can following a FAQ be not following RAW. Last time I checked FAQ's superced codex - the fact that it is bad written doesn't change that.

As too effect, I thought Wyches were WS5? Haven't played them with or against them in 4+ years. If that is right WS3 whould be halved to WS2, which would need 5+ to hit instead of 4's. I take it from your comment they are only WS4.

fullheadofhair wrote:Two points. I disagree with "we have a simple if-then scenerio" because that makes an absurb situation. I say effect can easily be transferred to single unit conflict. Read the rest of the thread, others have raised it. How can following a FAQ be not following RAW. Last time I checked FAQ's superced codex - the fact that it is bad written doesn't change that.

Absurdity is irrelevant. This is obviously a mistake on GW's part. It's an "absurd" way to change the rule. But as far as you're concerned, that's irrelevant.

fullheadofhair wrote:As too effect, I thought Wyches were WS5? Haven't played them with or against them in 4+ years. If that is right WS3 whould be halved to WS2, which would need 5+ to hit instead of 4's. I take it from your comment they are only WS4.

You're missing the point. The text speaks to the fact that Wyches affect enemies weapons skill when attacking or being attacked in close combat with multiple DE units. But it doesn't necessarily say *how* their weapon skill is affected when wyches attack. Does it add 3 points to the opponents weapon skill? We're left to use the DE codex to determine "how". And the text of the DE codex, in regards to wyches making attacks, there is no "how" and we can't just make an assumption. So, again, no bonuses for a Wyche attacking another unit, if the Codex and FAQ are used RAW.

And yes, wyches are WS4.

jupistar wrote:"...You're missing the point. The text speaks to the fact that Wyches affect enemies weapons skill when attacking or being attacked in close combat with multiple DE units..."

Partially - the situation is not limited to multiple assaults only, it clarifies only which models are affected

jupistar wrote:"...But it doesn't necessarily say *how* their weapon skill is affected when wyches attack..."

Actually it does - the original DE Codex explains affected models lose the +1 attack for additional close combat weapons PLUS the count as having thei Weapon Skill is halved when attacking Wyches. But the DE FAQ now includes the addition of being attacked by Wyches.

jupistar wrote:"...Does it add 3 points to the opponents weapon skill? We're left to use the DE codex to determine "how". And the text of the DE codex, in regards to wyches making attacks, there is no "how" and we can't just make an assumption. So, again, no bonuses for a Wyche attacking another unit, if the Codex and FAQ are used RAW..."

The +3 points for WS is a silly reply. You know, others know, and I know "how" the Wych Weapons work per the DE Codex ( see note above regarding +1 and half WS ). But the DE FAQ, a later printing which trumps the previous, has changed the way "how" Wych Weapons work.

Oh, for anyone interested, I've been referencing the wording from the 3rd edition FAQ that was then truncated into the current bullet-point version of the FAQ ruling. I found that 3rd edition FAQ online so I thought I'd share the wording:


Q, When an enemy unit is attacking a Wych unit and a Warrior unit in close
combat do all of the enemy troops halve their weapon skill because the
Wych unit is equipped with Wych weapons?

A. No, only those members of the unit who are actually attacking the Wych unit.



So I believe it is perfectly clear that this question and answer are related only to wyches fighting a multiple combat and was not covering how the Wych weapons work in general.


So either you believe that the editor who turned this question into the new version made a mistake (as I do) or you believe that GW decided to change how Wych weapons work (but only when in multiple combats) and did so via a ruling on multiple combats.

Would just like to note that the FAQ has been updated on this subject, and now justifies Yakface's interperetation of the the rules.

Lordhat wrote:Would just like to note that the FAQ has been updated on this subject, and now justifies Yakface's interperetation of the the rules.

Erm... Did you even notice who wrote the new FAQ ?

It does not justify his interpretation: yakface wrote the thing despite the information exchanged in this topic. I've already shown how Wych Weapons re: half weapon skill, have no real purpose unless it takes into account their attacks against opposing models.

Way to go !